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1
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The computer system, post office,
spent an arm and a leg on, is faulty.
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We're ready to mount and
fund an independent review.
3
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Angela, nice to meet you.
4
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Here to help.
5
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We are hearing from
Bob that your organisation
6
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has been obstructive
to his independent work.
7
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But this is about the
reputation of the post office.
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You are the chief executive,
so the buck stops with you.
9
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Blood on the house now.
10
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I am told that people are walking
out of their mediation meeting.
11
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Our lawyers advise that
no mediation scheme has
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the power to overturn
a criminal conviction.
13
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You have broken your words to Parliament.
14
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They say there's no remote access
to branch accounts, but they're lying.
15
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There was a whole room full of
us inside Fujitsu doing thousands
16
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of corrections on her eyes
and while a postmaster slept.
17
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It may be possible to
raise the money to fight
18
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them in court, but only if
there are enough of me.
19
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How many would you need?
At least 500. I can do that.
20
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There are a few specialist funders who
are prepared to take on this kind of risk.
21
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If we win, we pay them back
out of your compensation.
22
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If we lose, please.
23
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Well, then they lose too.
24
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Their entire investment.
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It is high risk.
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When all lose, it costs a fortune.
27
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And there's no guarantee
we'll ever see a penny.
28
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And I want to make it clear
that there are a few other things.
29
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This group litigation is
not going to do for us.
30
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I'm sorry, Joe.
31
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Sorry, no.
32
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But it's not going to overturn
any criminal convictions.
33
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It's not going to discharge
anyone's bankruptcies.
34
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It's not going to get back
any house repossessions,
35
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and it's not going to repair
anyone's shattered health.
36
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Or bring back those we've lost.
37
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Well, also, I've got to say
there's a few of us here.
38
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We've not much faith in the law
after everything that's happened.
39
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I believe in British justice,
that's what he's saying.
40
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Well, I've told you all the things
the laws not going to do for us.
41
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But I want you to think about
what brought us together.
42
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All those things that we've
been fighting for ever since.
43
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Compensation.
44
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Bigger than that.
45
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Justice.
46
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Bigger.
47
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Is it truth? Exactly.
48
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Yes, compensation.
49
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Yes, justice.
50
00:04:05,001 --> 00:04:09,000
But without the truth, we
can't do either of those.
51
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Going to law will force the
post office to open their files.
52
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So, finally, we'll get to know
everything the post office knows.
53
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The truth.
54
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The whole truth.
55
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All those in favor.
56
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Motion carried.
57
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Yes, it's true that the post office will
now have to give us everything that God.
58
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But it's also true that in fights like
this, the size of more money usually wins.
59
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Unless something extraordinary happens.
60
00:05:02,001 --> 00:05:05,000
Our whole case is something extraordinary.
61
00:05:05,001 --> 00:05:06,000
Yes, yes, it is.
62
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I couldn't agree more.
63
00:05:07,001 --> 00:05:11,989
And what's very striking
is how many people rang
64
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that helpline and were
told you're the only one.
65
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I asked to see if that phrase
was in the helpline scripts.
66
00:05:21,001 --> 00:05:24,000
And the post office said
there aren't no scripts.
67
00:05:24,001 --> 00:05:26,400
Yeah, and anyone
who's run helpline knows
68
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they parrot a script,
so it's clearly a lie.
69
00:05:29,001 --> 00:05:32,000
So what happened to the principle
of give us everything you've got?
70
00:05:32,001 --> 00:05:36,000
Well, whatever we asked them to disclose,
they either say the record doesn't exist,
71
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or it's not relevant, and
whatever documents they
72
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do provide are often pretty
much redacted to death.
73
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Yes, I get the sense that none of
this is coming as news to Mr Bates.
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Welcome to my world.
75
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The price of everything.
76
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I went looking for a dress,
but all I could afford is a scar.
77
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Yeah, love, love, listen to me.
78
00:06:00,001 --> 00:06:04,000
Did your mom tell you that
she had a doctor's apartment?
79
00:06:04,001 --> 00:06:06,000
No.
80
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But you better go and speak to her.
She's inside.
81
00:06:13,001 --> 00:06:21,001
I got a new scarf for the court hearing.
You want to see?
82
00:06:23,001 --> 00:06:29,000
I'm sorry, love.
I know you don't need this.
83
00:06:29,001 --> 00:06:32,000
They need what?
84
00:06:32,001 --> 00:06:34,000
I got counsel of.
85
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In a place I didn't even know was a place.
86
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Pancreas.
87
00:06:40,001 --> 00:06:46,000
Does it hurt? Well, oh, good.
88
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To look on that doctor's face, it
was me offering him the Kleenex.
89
00:06:58,001 --> 00:07:02,000
You wouldn't tell me
how long I don't, but well.
90
00:07:02,001 --> 00:07:09,000
Don't, don't.
91
00:07:09,001 --> 00:07:14,000
Don't you worry about me.
92
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You've got your taste to think about.
93
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Look, I don't care about any of that.
94
00:07:20,001 --> 00:07:22,000
Promise me?
95
00:07:22,001 --> 00:07:27,000
On my life, you'll see it through.
96
00:07:27,001 --> 00:07:34,000
Promise me, Joe.
You won't rest till the world sees me.
97
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It is a baby held in my arms.
98
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I promise.
99
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I promise, well.
100
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I'm sorry for your loss, Joe.
101
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Five days, we had together.
102
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Five more days on this earth.
103
00:08:01,001 --> 00:08:03,000
Am I lucky my mum's gone?
104
00:08:03,001 --> 00:08:06,000
We really didn't need to come today.
105
00:08:06,001 --> 00:08:09,905
I made her a promise,
but she's not even buried
106
00:08:09,917 --> 00:08:14,000
yet, so don't ask me what
just happened in there.
107
00:08:14,001 --> 00:08:18,489
Well, there could be five
separate trials, but they're going to
108
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make us wait another year
before they even start the first one.
109
00:08:23,001 --> 00:08:27,000
And you won't get called as a witness, Joe.
110
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They won't call anyone
who's got a criminal conviction.
111
00:08:31,001 --> 00:08:37,000
Well, I'll still come
every day to support you.
112
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Bates and others versus the post office.
113
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I'll be others.
114
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I told our lawyers. I said, "All right, you
can put my name on the tin if you want to.
115
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That doesn't mean you have
to put me in the witness box.
116
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Use the best people, Alan.
117
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You are the best people.
118
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"Certainly, isn't it this?
119
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Three years ago, Paula Vennell's wrote,
120
00:09:04,001 --> 00:09:08,000
"Is it possible to access
the system remotely or not?"
121
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We are told it is.
122
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And Paula then asks her
managers, "What is the true answer?"
123
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I need to say no, it
is not possible, and
124
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that we are sure of
this because of X, X, X.
125
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I need the facts.
126
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Wow, okay.
127
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That is an email of Paula's
that arrived this morning
128
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in a disclosure bundle,
and it wasn't even redacted.
129
00:09:31,001 --> 00:09:33,000
Well, this is fundamental.
130
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If we can prove their remote
access to your computers then.
131
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I mean, that means all the
criminal convictions are unsafe.
132
00:09:38,001 --> 00:09:41,000
I'm forward to hearing you ask
her about that in court, Patrick.
133
00:09:41,001 --> 00:09:43,600
Unfortunately, the post
office also sent across
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their final list of witnesses this
morning, and Paula Vennell's is not on it.
135
00:09:50,001 --> 00:09:52,000
Ah, brilliant.
136
00:09:52,001 --> 00:09:53,000
What?
137
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What's she worried about?
138
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That is a very strange decision.
139
00:09:57,001 --> 00:09:59,000
Who are they putting up instead?
140
00:09:59,001 --> 00:10:03,000
The People Services Director,
and... Angela Vanden Bogot.
141
00:10:03,001 --> 00:10:05,000
They have more job titles and hot dinners.
142
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She's like a stick of Blackpool rock with
post office written all the way through.
143
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And she's a hard-faced cow.
144
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Excellent. Why don't you tell us how
you really feel about her? Yeah, well.
145
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Never mind.
146
00:10:15,001 --> 00:10:17,000
Alan, wait, wait.
147
00:10:17,001 --> 00:10:23,000
There is a possibility that Patrick can
still question Angela on remote access.
148
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Where is it?
149
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This is from Angela's witness statement.
150
00:10:27,001 --> 00:10:32,000
Sub-postmasters are solely
responsible for their branch accounts.
151
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There is no transaction that enters
their accounts without their consent.
152
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Well, that's just not true.
153
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And we know a man who can prove it.
154
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Well, he would have whistled, though.
155
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He'd be right inside looking
at some postmaster screen.
156
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You could tell if he was busy,
you could see himself in his stamps.
157
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Remote access.
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Sometimes.
159
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Not often.
160
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Would go in using the postmaster's ID.
161
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Find the cause of his
problems, fix it, come back out.
162
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He'd never even know.
163
00:11:07,001 --> 00:11:12,000
Which way it would look like
he'd made the changes himself.
164
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Yeah.
165
00:11:14,001 --> 00:11:16,000
Richard, what if he couldn't fix it?
166
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What if he couldn't find
a cause? I don't know.
167
00:11:19,001 --> 00:11:27,001
The postmaster took the blame.
168
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I can't remember much detail.
169
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And like I said to Alan,
I'm not prepared to go to
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court or stick my neck
out in any way whatsoever.
171
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Sure.
172
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Sure.
173
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No, no, no. It's not just that
Richard is too shy to give evidence.
174
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He's got no evidence to
give, no documents, no email.
175
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Alternative?
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Oh, we really need him.
177
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He's still the only fidgets are
inside her to ever come forward.
178
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I meant ties.
179
00:11:56,001 --> 00:11:57,000
Oh.
180
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Maroon or Maroon.
181
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Oh, I'm not even going to ask.
182
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I think I took from the select committees.
183
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It really helps to use your face.
184
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You know, confused, skeptical, amused.
185
00:12:17,001 --> 00:12:20,000
And that's your master
plan for the group litigation.
186
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Make faces at the post office.
187
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555 sub postmasters in our group.
188
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And I have to go on first.
189
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I do solemnly and sincerely and truly
declare and affirm that the evidence
190
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I shall give to be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
191
00:12:45,001 --> 00:12:51,000
Good morning, Mr Bates.
192
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,410
Mr Bates would be
right to say that in terms
193
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of due diligence, you
are quite a careful man.
194
00:13:08,001 --> 00:13:09,000
Is that fair?
195
00:13:09,001 --> 00:13:12,000
You're a details man.
196
00:13:12,001 --> 00:13:13,000
Yes.
197
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Had paragraph 15 of
your witness statement, do
198
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you refer to being sent
an information sheet?
199
00:13:18,001 --> 00:13:23,875
The sub postmaster is
personally responsible for all
200
00:13:23,887 --> 00:13:30,000
losses or gains incurred
to post office cash or stock.
201
00:13:30,001 --> 00:13:33,000
You were aware you would
be responsible for that loss.
202
00:13:33,001 --> 00:13:34,000
However large it was.
203
00:13:34,001 --> 00:13:38,000
At the time, we took over the post office.
204
00:13:38,001 --> 00:13:41,000
Losses weren't a major concern.
205
00:13:41,001 --> 00:13:47,000
The original deficits of 1,182 pounds.
206
00:13:47,001 --> 00:13:49,000
That is a staff error, isn't it?
207
00:13:49,001 --> 00:13:50,000
No.
208
00:13:50,001 --> 00:13:52,000
No.
209
00:13:52,001 --> 00:13:56,000
That was definitely horizon.
210
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From my point of view,
without a shadow of doubt.
211
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You got it in your mind, it was horizon
and forever more, it has been horizon.
212
00:14:03,001 --> 00:14:04,000
No.
213
00:14:04,001 --> 00:14:05,000
We jumped out.
214
00:14:05,001 --> 00:14:08,000
The errors jumped out.
215
00:14:08,001 --> 00:14:10,000
There couldn't have been anything else.
216
00:14:10,001 --> 00:14:16,771
I put to you generally that the overwhelming
likelihood is that these deficits
217
00:14:16,783 --> 00:14:24,000
were most likely caused by error or wrongdoing
in your branch by you or your staff.
218
00:14:24,001 --> 00:14:26,000
That is the post office case.
219
00:14:26,001 --> 00:14:34,001
Mr. Bates, that has been put to you so
that you can tell me what the answer is.
220
00:14:36,001 --> 00:14:39,000
No, my lord.
221
00:14:39,001 --> 00:14:41,000
No.
222
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No further questions.
223
00:14:47,001 --> 00:14:48,000
Thank you.
224
00:14:48,001 --> 00:14:51,000
Thank you, Mr. Bates. You are excused.
225
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A details, ma'am.
226
00:14:53,001 --> 00:14:55,000
Might use that at home.
227
00:14:55,001 --> 00:14:57,000
Allen did OK, I think.
228
00:14:57,001 --> 00:14:59,000
Just so bloody wet first.
229
00:14:59,001 --> 00:15:07,001
I took over Barkham post office when my
husband died on the 3rd of August 1999.
230
00:15:08,001 --> 00:15:11,000
So some 19 odd years ago.
231
00:15:11,001 --> 00:15:18,000
It's first say your memory of the details
is probably pretty vague, is that fair?
232
00:15:18,001 --> 00:15:20,000
No, I don't think so.
233
00:15:20,001 --> 00:15:23,000
You are particularly stunning events
are they like a car crash or something.
234
00:15:23,001 --> 00:15:27,000
Is that fair?
235
00:15:27,001 --> 00:15:35,001
If you are talking about August 1999, then
yes, they are very similar to a car crash.
236
00:15:36,001 --> 00:15:40,000
You are talking about your husband's death.
237
00:15:40,001 --> 00:15:43,000
Yes.
238
00:15:43,001 --> 00:15:48,000
Yes, I accept that.
239
00:15:48,001 --> 00:15:55,000
Moving forward to your suspension, following
the L18,000 deficit found on the audit.
240
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Well, I was staggered that I was suspended.
241
00:15:58,001 --> 00:16:00,000
Absolutely staggered.
242
00:16:00,001 --> 00:16:05,000
I was probably as angry and
upset as I have ever been in my life.
243
00:16:05,001 --> 00:16:09,882
Because for the last six months I
had been asking post office to help
244
00:16:09,894 --> 00:16:15,000
me find the source for these
alleged shortfalls in order that I could...
245
00:16:15,001 --> 00:16:17,000
How can I put it?
246
00:16:17,001 --> 00:16:21,000
It would start me from bombarding
them with phone calls, letters.
247
00:16:21,001 --> 00:16:25,000
A lot of them might think, well I received
this letter, let's look at my contract.
248
00:16:25,001 --> 00:16:31,000
Let's look at Section 19, paragraph
4, and see whether they are entitled to.
249
00:16:31,001 --> 00:16:33,000
Well I couldn't do that.
250
00:16:33,001 --> 00:16:37,000
I had no entry to my post office
from the day they did the closing audit.
251
00:16:37,001 --> 00:16:40,000
They took the keys away and locked them up.
252
00:16:40,001 --> 00:16:42,092
But my point is you
immediately blame it on horizon
253
00:16:42,104 --> 00:16:44,000
without really casting
a minus or other Poles.
254
00:16:44,001 --> 00:16:46,000
I dispute that completely.
255
00:16:46,001 --> 00:16:54,001
I never used to be an angry person.
256
00:16:56,001 --> 00:16:58,000
And it really works, doesn't it?
257
00:16:58,001 --> 00:17:00,000
I wouldn't know, I don't get angry.
258
00:17:00,001 --> 00:17:03,000
Well, I should give it a go, Alan.
259
00:17:03,001 --> 00:17:06,000
I was the stress of all
this, I ended up killing it.
260
00:17:06,001 --> 00:17:12,000
I had the post office chose three
witnesses and we chose three witnesses.
261
00:17:12,001 --> 00:17:15,000
The post office is read 555.
262
00:17:15,001 --> 00:17:17,000
Post-master statements, five that was made.
263
00:17:17,001 --> 00:17:22,000
So they chose Muhammad to be a because
he has an accountancy qualification.
264
00:17:22,001 --> 00:17:26,000
So just watch them and try to make
him extremely as well as dishonest.
265
00:17:26,001 --> 00:17:30,489
Do you accept from me that
being involved over a period of years
266
00:17:30,501 --> 00:17:35,000
as an assistant accountant means
that I can consider you as not?
267
00:17:35,001 --> 00:17:39,000
Commercially naive.
268
00:17:39,001 --> 00:17:43,000
I did not understand your question, please.
269
00:17:43,001 --> 00:17:46,000
Refres it, Mr. Wentworth.
270
00:17:46,001 --> 00:17:49,000
As at the time you
applied to post office, yes.
271
00:17:49,001 --> 00:17:52,000
You were not commercially naive.
272
00:17:52,001 --> 00:17:57,000
My lord, English is not my first language.
273
00:17:57,001 --> 00:18:00,000
You had experience of commercial things.
274
00:18:00,001 --> 00:18:06,000
You went, let's put me on
the spot trying to rephrase this.
275
00:18:06,001 --> 00:18:10,026
At that time, I was just
thinking to buy the business,
276
00:18:10,038 --> 00:18:14,000
donate, make my life better,
and serve the community.
277
00:18:14,001 --> 00:18:16,000
This was my main ambition.
278
00:18:16,001 --> 00:18:18,000
So if I am clear, honest.
279
00:18:18,001 --> 00:18:21,000
So don't be afraid of signing
any contract with anybody.
280
00:18:21,001 --> 00:18:24,000
Assuming that they are doing
everything for goodness of me.
281
00:18:24,001 --> 00:18:27,000
And I had already
positive thinking about this.
282
00:18:27,001 --> 00:18:34,000
Okay, I think you would agree that a
deficit of 4878 pounds is a serious matter.
283
00:18:34,001 --> 00:18:35,000
Do you agree with that?
284
00:18:35,001 --> 00:18:36,000
No, I didn't agree.
285
00:18:36,001 --> 00:18:39,000
I told them everything,
what was the problem?
286
00:18:39,001 --> 00:18:44,000
Have you read all the
documents which I submitted?
287
00:18:44,001 --> 00:18:46,000
I ran the post office helpline.
288
00:18:46,001 --> 00:18:48,000
Please, can somebody ring me?
289
00:18:48,001 --> 00:18:51,000
Or come to my office
and resolve this problem.
290
00:18:51,001 --> 00:18:54,000
But they said we don't believe
you, we have to suspend you.
291
00:18:54,001 --> 00:18:56,000
I never thought that
I will lose everything.
292
00:18:56,001 --> 00:18:58,000
When I will be working in the post office.
293
00:18:58,001 --> 00:19:06,000
We are supposed to be
the most civilized country.
294
00:19:06,001 --> 00:19:08,000
We don't expect anyone to
behave like the post office.
295
00:19:08,001 --> 00:19:09,000
That's why they do this.
296
00:19:09,001 --> 00:19:12,000
Well, that's the million-dollar question.
297
00:19:12,001 --> 00:19:14,000
The QC was very clever.
298
00:19:14,001 --> 00:19:16,000
Big, big, picking up your own stuff.
299
00:19:16,001 --> 00:19:17,000
You did everything right.
300
00:19:17,001 --> 00:19:18,000
Ah, I'm it.
301
00:19:18,001 --> 00:19:20,000
You told the truth and
that's all that matters.
302
00:19:20,001 --> 00:19:22,000
Truth is truth.
303
00:19:22,001 --> 00:19:23,000
Truth is truth.
304
00:19:23,001 --> 00:19:28,000
Can't hide it.
305
00:19:28,001 --> 00:19:30,000
Well, that was brilliant.
306
00:19:30,001 --> 00:19:32,000
He chose him and he smashed them.
307
00:19:32,001 --> 00:19:36,000
Just a pile of ash or other
post office used to be.
308
00:19:36,001 --> 00:19:40,000
Well, Angela Vanden Bogan
in the witness box tomorrow.
309
00:19:40,001 --> 00:19:42,000
You get to ask the question.
310
00:19:42,001 --> 00:19:43,000
Let's do.
311
00:19:43,001 --> 00:19:46,000
And I've got plenty.
312
00:19:46,001 --> 00:19:50,000
We get to see if we put
the right man for the job.
313
00:19:50,001 --> 00:19:55,000
OK.
314
00:19:55,001 --> 00:19:56,000
Miss Vanden Bogan.
315
00:19:56,001 --> 00:20:00,000
If we could please look at Document G43/1.
316
00:20:00,001 --> 00:20:02,000
So this is co-authored by you.
317
00:20:02,001 --> 00:20:06,000
Horizon Help has since its
introduction over a decade ago,
318
00:20:06,001 --> 00:20:10,000
fallen short of delivering the
functionality that was promised as part of
319
00:20:10,001 --> 00:20:16,000
Horizon rollout, and that postmasters
and their assistance desperately need.
320
00:20:16,001 --> 00:20:18,000
Yes.
321
00:20:18,001 --> 00:20:22,000
That is an honest and candid internal
recognition of the situation, isn't it?
322
00:20:22,001 --> 00:20:26,000
There were short comings
in the user experience.
323
00:20:26,001 --> 00:20:30,000
It's... It's clunky.
324
00:20:30,001 --> 00:20:33,000
Would be the word I would use.
325
00:20:33,001 --> 00:20:35,000
Clunky.
326
00:20:35,001 --> 00:20:36,000
Right.
327
00:20:36,001 --> 00:20:44,001
So why don't you mention this
in your witness statement? I don't.
328
00:20:49,001 --> 00:20:57,000
I suppose the length of my witness
statement, it's so long anyway that.
329
00:20:57,001 --> 00:20:59,223
Was it your understanding
that there was a
330
00:20:59,235 --> 00:21:02,000
restriction on the length
of your witness statement?
331
00:21:02,001 --> 00:21:06,000
The witness statement in
itself is quite lengthy anyway.
332
00:21:06,001 --> 00:21:11,000
And so I suppose it was just myself.
333
00:21:11,001 --> 00:21:13,000
Mr. Green.
334
00:21:13,001 --> 00:21:19,000
If we could go please to Document G38/2.
335
00:21:19,001 --> 00:21:22,000
So it's 30th of January 2015.
336
00:21:22,001 --> 00:21:28,000
Mrs. Venel's asks, "Is it possible
to access the system remotely?
337
00:21:28,001 --> 00:21:33,000
I need to say no, it is not possible,
and that we are sure of this.
338
00:21:33,001 --> 00:21:36,000
"So in 2015 it would be
wrong to say, wouldn't it?
339
00:21:36,001 --> 00:21:42,000
That post office couldn't
remotely access Horizon data.
340
00:21:42,001 --> 00:21:45,000
Post office can't.
341
00:21:45,001 --> 00:21:49,000
Could he do it through Fujitsu?
342
00:21:49,001 --> 00:21:56,000
Through Fujitsu? Yes, I can.
343
00:21:56,001 --> 00:22:04,001
Yes.
344
00:22:07,001 --> 00:22:09,000
You're going to have to
keep your voice up, I'm afraid.
345
00:22:09,001 --> 00:22:11,000
I'm sorry.
346
00:22:11,001 --> 00:22:16,000
I suggest you are hesitant to accept
anything that is damaging to post office.
347
00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:18,000
That is not the case.
348
00:22:18,001 --> 00:22:22,000
Do you feel pressure to protect
the post office brand now?
349
00:22:22,001 --> 00:22:24,000
At this particular moment.
350
00:22:24,001 --> 00:22:25,000
Yes.
351
00:22:25,001 --> 00:22:26,000
No.
352
00:22:26,001 --> 00:22:28,000
Can I just ask one simple question?
353
00:22:28,001 --> 00:22:32,000
What exactly does protecting a brand mean?
354
00:22:32,001 --> 00:22:40,001
It just means that one, it
is making sure that how we
355
00:22:42,001 --> 00:22:47,000
do things, how we behave,
how we interact with people.
356
00:22:47,001 --> 00:22:54,000
And it's just making sure that at
all times we are maintaining that.
357
00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:03,000
Maybe about midnight,
that's pretty good for me.
358
00:23:14,001 --> 00:23:18,000
All the meetings with
MPs, letters to the minister,
359
00:23:18,001 --> 00:23:21,000
more ministers than
you can shake a stick at.
360
00:23:21,001 --> 00:23:24,000
Years and years.
361
00:23:24,001 --> 00:23:29,000
Still nobody in power is a word we say.
362
00:23:29,001 --> 00:23:32,000
Let's brought this on.
363
00:23:32,001 --> 00:23:34,000
Your ears on us, list.
364
00:23:34,001 --> 00:23:35,000
God's sake.
365
00:23:35,001 --> 00:23:36,000
Come on, turn it off.
366
00:23:36,001 --> 00:23:37,000
Details, man, come to bed.
367
00:23:37,001 --> 00:23:39,000
All of Reynolds has got the CBE.
368
00:23:39,001 --> 00:23:42,000
Choking.
369
00:23:42,001 --> 00:23:44,000
Services to the post office.
370
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,000
Always another trick of their sleeves.
371
00:23:52,001 --> 00:23:57,000
We'll see you all there.
372
00:23:57,001 --> 00:24:04,000
The post office now admit
they do have remote access,
373
00:24:04,001 --> 00:24:07,000
but they insist it could
never happen without
374
00:24:07,001 --> 00:24:08,000
the knowledge and
permission of a sub postmaster.
375
00:24:08,001 --> 00:24:09,000
Well, they're wrong.
376
00:24:09,001 --> 00:24:11,000
Of course they are.
377
00:24:11,001 --> 00:24:14,000
But it's 15 years ago, more.
378
00:24:14,001 --> 00:24:19,000
I can't remember the details.
379
00:24:19,001 --> 00:24:21,000
I can't help you, Alan.
380
00:24:21,001 --> 00:24:24,000
There must be someone else.
381
00:24:24,001 --> 00:24:28,000
It's not that bad, honestly.
382
00:24:28,001 --> 00:24:31,000
There will be loads of other witnesses.
383
00:24:31,001 --> 00:24:36,000
I wasn't senior, Alan, not at all.
384
00:24:36,001 --> 00:24:40,000
I'm a girlfriend really doesn't want
me draw an attention to myself.
385
00:24:40,001 --> 00:24:42,000
Just have to talk to the judge.
386
00:24:42,001 --> 00:24:49,000
Ignore everyone else.
387
00:24:49,001 --> 00:24:52,000
You can really help us out there, Richard.
388
00:24:52,001 --> 00:24:56,000
I'm still beyond for your tea.
389
00:24:56,001 --> 00:25:00,000
I'll only disappoint you.
390
00:25:00,001 --> 00:25:05,000
You'll be fine.
391
00:25:05,001 --> 00:25:08,000
Joe?
392
00:25:08,001 --> 00:25:09,000
What was it doing here?
393
00:25:09,001 --> 00:25:11,000
I wouldn't miss this for the world.
394
00:25:11,001 --> 00:25:16,000
A few jiu-jitsu technical supports,
given evidence under oaths.
395
00:25:16,001 --> 00:25:18,000
The guy's quite shy.
396
00:25:18,001 --> 00:25:20,000
Alan's worried about him.
397
00:25:20,001 --> 00:25:21,000
A real life whistle, though.
398
00:25:21,001 --> 00:25:24,000
It's going to be dying, am I, kid?
399
00:25:24,001 --> 00:25:26,000
Mr. Rowe.
400
00:25:26,001 --> 00:25:33,000
Would you accept that your recollection
of your time at Fujitsu is hazy?
401
00:25:33,001 --> 00:25:36,000
It is quite hazy.
402
00:25:36,001 --> 00:25:44,000
He could just be my perception
of events from 15, 17 years ago.
403
00:25:44,001 --> 00:25:49,000
See, why not saying that you were
routinely encountering coding issues? Bugs.
404
00:25:49,001 --> 00:25:52,852
You don't recall ever
having encountered a
405
00:25:52,864 --> 00:25:56,000
bug that definitely
caused a financial impact.
406
00:25:56,001 --> 00:26:01,000
I don't recall discovering one.
407
00:26:01,001 --> 00:26:05,000
I'm going to move on to
remote access now, Mr. Rowe.
408
00:26:05,001 --> 00:26:09,623
My suggestion to you will be that
you never, and would never manually
409
00:26:09,635 --> 00:26:14,000
change a transaction line of data
that a Postmaster had keyed in.
410
00:26:14,001 --> 00:26:19,000
Now, that is something we
did as far as I remember it.
411
00:26:19,001 --> 00:26:23,000
But ultimately, the Postmaster would
be able to see what Fujitsu had done.
412
00:26:23,001 --> 00:26:25,000
Is that true?
413
00:26:25,001 --> 00:26:28,926
Again, my understanding
is that in certain
414
00:26:28,938 --> 00:26:34,000
circumstances, the data
would be in indistinguishable.
415
00:26:34,001 --> 00:26:37,000
Yes, that was what you were trying to say.
416
00:26:37,001 --> 00:26:38,000
Yes, my lord.
417
00:26:38,001 --> 00:26:40,000
You couldn't tell the difference.
418
00:26:40,001 --> 00:26:43,000
No, you couldn't tell the difference.
419
00:26:43,001 --> 00:26:51,001
Remote access to the horizon
system at branch level was extensive.
420
00:26:55,001 --> 00:26:59,215
We had the ability to change
data and change transaction
421
00:26:59,227 --> 00:27:03,000
information even while
the Postmaster was working.
422
00:27:03,001 --> 00:27:06,000
Without the Postmaster being aware.
423
00:27:06,001 --> 00:27:09,000
Yes, that is my understanding.
424
00:27:09,001 --> 00:27:11,000
You're understanding.
425
00:27:11,001 --> 00:27:13,000
No.
426
00:27:13,001 --> 00:27:15,000
My recollection.
427
00:27:15,001 --> 00:27:22,000
Thought he was great in the end.
428
00:27:22,001 --> 00:27:24,000
I wonder if it's enough.
429
00:27:24,001 --> 00:27:29,000
I asked you a question, Bob.
430
00:27:29,001 --> 00:27:31,000
Years ago, when we first met.
431
00:27:31,001 --> 00:27:35,000
Bob, where did all the money go?
432
00:27:35,001 --> 00:27:39,000
36,000 pounds, they took off me.
433
00:27:39,001 --> 00:27:45,000
Now, I think I can't prove
it, Joe, not yet, but I will.
434
00:27:45,001 --> 00:27:50,000
The money you gave them
that they claimed you owed them,
435
00:27:50,001 --> 00:27:54,000
hung around in some
sort of suspense account
436
00:27:54,001 --> 00:27:57,000
for a while, while they
failed to investigate.
437
00:27:57,001 --> 00:28:02,000
And after a couple of years,
your money, everyone's
438
00:28:02,001 --> 00:28:06,000
money, it just showed
up in their profits.
439
00:28:06,001 --> 00:28:10,000
My 36,000 pounds, that I didn't steal,
440
00:28:10,001 --> 00:28:16,000
that they actually stole
off me to pay off a debt
441
00:28:16,001 --> 00:28:21,000
that never existed, is
in the Post Office profits.
442
00:28:21,001 --> 00:28:29,000
I just... I mean, are they just
incompetent Alan or just evil? Yeah.
443
00:28:29,001 --> 00:28:35,000
Well, you know, it comes
the same thing in the end.
444
00:28:35,001 --> 00:28:36,000
What? Please.
445
00:28:36,001 --> 00:28:37,000
Definitely.
446
00:28:37,001 --> 00:28:45,001
The Post Office
describes itself on its own
447
00:28:46,001 --> 00:28:50,000
website as the nation's
most trusted brand.
448
00:28:50,001 --> 00:28:54,000
Well, as far as these
claimants are concerned,
449
00:28:54,001 --> 00:28:57,000
this might be thought to
be wholly wishful thinking.
450
00:28:57,001 --> 00:29:01,000
The Post Office witnesses
give me the impression
451
00:29:01,001 --> 00:29:05,000
that they simply cannot allow
themselves to consider the possibility
452
00:29:05,001 --> 00:29:08,000
that the Post Office may be
wrong, as the consequences
453
00:29:08,001 --> 00:29:12,000
are doing so, are too
significant to contemplate.
454
00:29:12,001 --> 00:29:17,000
Angela Vanden Bogard did not
always give me Frank evidence.
455
00:29:17,001 --> 00:29:19,000
She sought to mislead me.
456
00:29:19,001 --> 00:29:24,000
Her judgment also seemed to be
uniquely exercised to paint the Post Office
457
00:29:24,001 --> 00:29:29,000
in the most favorable light
possible, regardless of the facts.
458
00:29:29,001 --> 00:29:34,000
Mr. Bates seemed to me to
offer his evidence honestly, and...
459
00:29:34,001 --> 00:29:38,000
Just proved himself
to be... Unreasonable.
460
00:29:38,001 --> 00:29:42,000
Stubborn and considerable
irritant to the Post Office.
461
00:29:42,001 --> 00:29:44,000
He's got you to a T?
462
00:29:44,001 --> 00:29:48,000
Yeah, and the Post Office too.
463
00:29:48,001 --> 00:29:55,000
Oppressive on fair, excessive secrecy, and,
well, 180,000 other words, just the same.
464
00:29:55,001 --> 00:29:56,000
Sorry.
465
00:29:56,001 --> 00:29:58,000
We've got to get back into court now.
466
00:29:58,001 --> 00:29:59,000
Why?
467
00:29:59,001 --> 00:30:01,000
Somebody's come on.
468
00:30:01,001 --> 00:30:03,000
Hold on, love.
469
00:30:03,001 --> 00:30:05,000
I just saw this five minutes ago.
470
00:30:05,001 --> 00:30:09,000
It's an application for
me to recuse myself as
471
00:30:09,001 --> 00:30:11,000
being the managing
judge in these proceedings.
472
00:30:11,001 --> 00:30:14,000
Mr. Wentworth, that you care to elaborate.
473
00:30:14,001 --> 00:30:16,000
The Post Office has asked
the judge to sack himself
474
00:30:16,001 --> 00:30:19,000
on the grounds that he's clearly
biased against the Post Office.
475
00:30:19,001 --> 00:30:21,000
Amazing.
476
00:30:21,001 --> 00:30:22,000
It's just the best day ever.
477
00:30:22,001 --> 00:30:24,000
It's like a gift from heaven.
478
00:30:24,001 --> 00:30:25,000
Proof their desperate.
479
00:30:25,001 --> 00:30:26,000
Absolutely.
480
00:30:26,001 --> 00:30:30,000
I mean, well, Alan, the most
catastrophic mistake you can make
481
00:30:30,001 --> 00:30:33,000
is to make unfounded allegations
of bias against the judge.
482
00:30:33,001 --> 00:30:37,000
I mean, you just... I've
never even... The idiot.
483
00:30:37,001 --> 00:30:40,000
I bet it wasn't the lawyers
who decided to do this.
484
00:30:40,001 --> 00:30:43,000
I bet it came from the
Post Office boardroom.
485
00:30:43,001 --> 00:30:45,000
Oh, well, to be a fan of all, eh?
486
00:30:45,001 --> 00:30:46,000
Well, we're winning.
487
00:30:46,001 --> 00:30:49,000
Well, yes, but... Oh.
488
00:30:49,001 --> 00:30:53,000
I should have known there
was a butt coming over the hill.
489
00:30:53,001 --> 00:30:56,000
Well, the trial stops now.
490
00:30:56,001 --> 00:31:00,000
It'll be weeks, months
of arguments to follow.
491
00:31:00,001 --> 00:31:02,000
On whether we need a new judge.
492
00:31:02,001 --> 00:31:07,000
It's a delay the Post Office
can afford, but we can't.
493
00:31:07,001 --> 00:31:08,000
That's why they're doing this.
494
00:31:08,001 --> 00:31:11,000
They're doing this to
make us run out of money.
495
00:31:11,001 --> 00:31:16,000
Alan, we have run out of money.
496
00:31:16,001 --> 00:31:22,000
No.
497
00:31:22,001 --> 00:31:24,000
No, no.
498
00:31:24,001 --> 00:31:26,000
We can't stop now.
499
00:31:26,001 --> 00:31:30,000
No one's talking about stopping not at all.
500
00:31:30,001 --> 00:31:38,001
But it is time to start
negotiating a settlement.
501
00:31:41,001 --> 00:31:45,000
I think you're forgetting, ah?
502
00:31:45,001 --> 00:31:48,000
I've negotiated with this mob before.
503
00:31:48,001 --> 00:31:50,000
And people have died.
504
00:31:50,001 --> 00:31:53,000
Well, people are still dying.
505
00:31:53,001 --> 00:31:56,000
You know this, alright,
but nobody else does.
506
00:31:56,001 --> 00:31:59,000
There's millions of people out
there who've never heard of us.
507
00:31:59,001 --> 00:32:05,000
We don't know about the
suicides and the ruined lives.
508
00:32:05,001 --> 00:32:11,000
God knows how many victims who
are still too scared to come forward.
509
00:32:11,001 --> 00:32:12,000
Ha.
510
00:32:12,001 --> 00:32:18,000
I haven't spent 20 years battling
these bastards to pack up now
511
00:32:18,001 --> 00:32:22,000
and give the Post Office license to
start running a mock and destroying lives.
512
00:32:22,001 --> 00:32:23,000
Again.
513
00:32:23,001 --> 00:32:30,000
Well, well, I've shut it off.
514
00:32:30,001 --> 00:32:35,000
We have to win.
515
00:32:35,001 --> 00:32:41,000
Alan, we just did.
516
00:32:41,001 --> 00:32:44,000
This is what winning looks like.
517
00:32:44,001 --> 00:32:48,000
You're talking as though this
is a defeat and it's really not.
518
00:32:48,001 --> 00:32:51,000
This is just what happens towards
the end of any litigation week.
519
00:32:51,001 --> 00:32:54,000
We get around the table
and if we don't, and we lose in
520
00:32:54,001 --> 00:32:56,000
that arena, we lose everything
we've achieved so far.
521
00:32:56,001 --> 00:32:58,000
And the clock sets back to zero.
522
00:32:58,001 --> 00:33:05,000
So it's about knowing when
to stop and when to negotiate.
523
00:33:05,001 --> 00:33:08,000
So, that's it. Give up now.
524
00:33:08,001 --> 00:33:10,000
No, no.
525
00:33:10,001 --> 00:33:15,000
We settle.
526
00:33:15,001 --> 00:33:19,000
It's a good thing.
527
00:33:19,001 --> 00:33:27,001
This is Venice.
528
00:33:29,001 --> 00:33:37,000
All of Venice?
529
00:33:37,001 --> 00:33:38,000
Yes.
530
00:33:38,001 --> 00:33:41,000
Ned Foster, Daily Mail. Would you
like to say anything to the Postmasters
531
00:33:41,001 --> 00:33:43,000
who've been through
such a long legal battle?
532
00:33:43,001 --> 00:33:45,000
No. I really find this unacceptable.
533
00:33:45,001 --> 00:33:47,000
Would you like to apologize to me?
534
00:33:47,001 --> 00:33:49,000
Will you just go away?
535
00:33:49,001 --> 00:33:51,000
So you won't apologize.
536
00:33:51,001 --> 00:33:52,000
Please go away.
537
00:33:52,001 --> 00:33:54,000
Well, can I confirm them, Mrs.
538
00:33:54,001 --> 00:33:56,000
Venice? You're saying
you will not apologize to the
539
00:33:56,001 --> 00:33:59,000
Postmasters after everything
that they've been through.
540
00:33:59,001 --> 00:34:03,000
After an epic legal battle during
which the Post Office tried and failed to
541
00:34:03,001 --> 00:34:07,000
remove the judge, the subpostmasters
have won on almost every count.
542
00:34:07,001 --> 00:34:12,000
Their victory comes with a compensation
package worth 58 million pounds.
543
00:34:12,001 --> 00:34:16,000
Well, you took them on and you won.
544
00:34:16,001 --> 00:34:21,000
And I cannot overstate enough
quite the scale of this achievement.
545
00:34:21,001 --> 00:34:24,000
It is more than we could have
ever dreamed of from the beginning.
546
00:34:24,001 --> 00:34:27,000
It is an absolutely astonishing victory.
547
00:34:27,001 --> 00:34:31,000
In my professional career, I have
never seen anything quite like this.
548
00:34:38,001 --> 00:34:45,000
Having said that, I do need to
make you aware that inevitably,
549
00:34:45,001 --> 00:34:49,000
there are legal fees and
court costs and our obligations
550
00:34:49,001 --> 00:34:52,000
to our funders that
will eat into that total.
551
00:34:52,001 --> 00:35:00,001
So the amount that will be left after
that to divide amongst yourselves as
552
00:35:02,001 --> 00:35:07,000
compensation will be in the
region of 12 million pounds.
553
00:35:07,001 --> 00:35:12,000
Wait, 12 million between 555?
554
00:35:12,001 --> 00:35:16,000
That's what 20, 20
grand each? On average.
555
00:35:16,001 --> 00:35:18,000
Yes.
556
00:35:18,001 --> 00:35:19,000
20,000 pounds.
557
00:35:19,001 --> 00:35:23,000
Don't want to touch the
sides of what we've lost.
558
00:35:23,001 --> 00:35:28,000
Listen, I understand, but
what you must remember
559
00:35:28,001 --> 00:35:29,000
is that today's settlement
opens a lot of doors.
560
00:35:29,001 --> 00:35:34,000
So that people with
convictions can now use these
561
00:35:34,001 --> 00:35:37,000
judgments to help with their
appeals going forward forever.
562
00:35:37,001 --> 00:35:45,000
So what this also means is that those
postmasters who've been too scared to
563
00:35:45,001 --> 00:35:53,000
come forward up to now will
be able to do so without fear.
564
00:35:53,001 --> 00:36:00,000
Friends, we did talk
this over and over again.
565
00:36:00,001 --> 00:36:08,001
And we knew we might not see a penny,
but we decided we voted to go ahead.
566
00:36:10,001 --> 00:36:15,000
They got paid right.
567
00:36:15,001 --> 00:36:23,001
Excuse me, excuse me.
568
00:36:25,001 --> 00:36:29,000
Excuse me.
569
00:36:29,001 --> 00:36:32,453
I've been in court every
single day, and I saw us
570
00:36:32,465 --> 00:36:36,000
with my own eyes winning
the most massive victory.
571
00:36:36,001 --> 00:36:42,000
And that's all down to
Allen and James and Patrick.
572
00:36:42,001 --> 00:36:44,000
And their hard work.
573
00:36:44,001 --> 00:36:49,000
So could you just all stop it?
574
00:36:49,001 --> 00:36:57,001
I've never been to end, is it?
575
00:37:13,001 --> 00:37:15,885
I wouldn't mind, but
our legal team worked
576
00:37:15,897 --> 00:37:19,000
for free a lot of the
time, and none of them.
577
00:37:19,001 --> 00:37:22,000
Not even the funders took
anything like the fees they would do.
578
00:37:22,001 --> 00:37:24,000
Well, anyway, it's not about money, is it?
579
00:37:24,001 --> 00:37:27,000
Well, it is, partly.
580
00:37:27,001 --> 00:37:28,000
Mostly.
581
00:37:28,001 --> 00:37:30,000
You know what I
mean? You won, Allen.
582
00:37:30,001 --> 00:37:38,000
You set out to prove horizon
is faulty, and you did it.
583
00:37:38,001 --> 00:37:39,000
You won.
584
00:37:39,001 --> 00:37:44,000
But everyone is still skinned.
585
00:37:44,001 --> 00:37:47,000
Allen.
586
00:37:47,001 --> 00:37:48,000
Lee, yeah.
587
00:37:48,001 --> 00:37:52,000
I want to, but not attacking you, Allen.
588
00:37:52,001 --> 00:37:55,000
Everyone can see you did your best.
589
00:37:55,001 --> 00:37:58,000
Thank you.
590
00:37:58,001 --> 00:38:01,000
Me, though.
591
00:38:01,001 --> 00:38:05,000
Don't listen to the angry
people, but upset, tired.
592
00:38:05,001 --> 00:38:06,000
I know.
593
00:38:06,001 --> 00:38:08,000
It's all right.
594
00:38:08,001 --> 00:38:12,000
Just remember, we'd be
nowhere without you, Mr Bates.
595
00:38:12,001 --> 00:38:15,000
You're a legend.
596
00:38:15,001 --> 00:38:23,001
There from the beginning,
and you never wavered, never.
597
00:38:35,001 --> 00:38:38,000
Not for all those long years.
598
00:38:38,001 --> 00:38:43,000
Just been a tower of
strength and new ideas.
599
00:38:43,001 --> 00:38:46,000
Oh, well, I'm embarrassing you.
600
00:38:46,001 --> 00:38:48,000
Hey, listen.
601
00:38:48,001 --> 00:38:51,000
Joe.
602
00:38:51,001 --> 00:38:54,000
All this evidence, the
litigation has dug up.
603
00:38:54,001 --> 00:38:57,000
All the secrets coming out of the woodwork.
604
00:38:57,001 --> 00:39:00,000
Well, we got to the truth.
605
00:39:00,001 --> 00:39:02,000
It belongs to us now.
606
00:39:02,001 --> 00:39:07,000
Use it, prove your innocence,
go to the court of appeal,
607
00:39:07,001 --> 00:39:11,000
and show the world what a
miscarriage of justice really looks like.
608
00:39:11,001 --> 00:39:15,000
All right, Evan.
609
00:39:15,001 --> 00:39:23,001
But what are you going to do?
610
00:39:27,001 --> 00:39:32,000
Oh, there's a pint of beer
in Wales with my name on it.
611
00:39:32,001 --> 00:39:40,001
I think people are bitter.
612
00:39:47,001 --> 00:39:49,000
They're angry.
613
00:39:49,001 --> 00:39:51,000
And I guess I do.
614
00:39:51,001 --> 00:39:52,000
I'm bitter.
615
00:39:52,001 --> 00:39:53,000
I'm angry.
616
00:39:53,001 --> 00:39:55,000
And I care about them only.
617
00:39:55,001 --> 00:39:57,000
Of course I do.
618
00:39:57,001 --> 00:40:02,000
I care about the home we should
have had, the life we could have had.
619
00:40:02,001 --> 00:40:05,000
But I care about justice too.
620
00:40:05,001 --> 00:40:10,000
And you care about you, so
don't you dare go blaming yourself.
621
00:40:10,001 --> 00:40:11,000
I don't.
622
00:40:11,001 --> 00:40:15,000
You have absolutely
nothing to blame yourself for.
623
00:40:15,001 --> 00:40:18,000
And that's why I don't blame myself.
624
00:40:18,001 --> 00:40:23,000
Come on, let's get home.
625
00:40:23,001 --> 00:40:28,000
I've never seen the point
of getting angry, Suzanne.
626
00:40:28,001 --> 00:40:32,000
I treat you like a job.
627
00:40:32,001 --> 00:40:36,000
Something I lift off the
shelf and then put back after.
628
00:40:36,001 --> 00:40:38,000
Funnily enough, I don't
really remember that part.
629
00:40:38,001 --> 00:40:40,000
They're putting it back on the shelf part.
630
00:40:40,001 --> 00:40:44,000
More than seven days a
week, 365 days a year apart.
631
00:40:44,001 --> 00:40:49,000
And also Alan, jobs are things
that people have paid to do.
632
00:40:49,001 --> 00:40:53,000
I guess something went a bit wrong there.
633
00:40:53,001 --> 00:40:58,000
Not actually giving up at all of you.
634
00:40:58,001 --> 00:41:06,001
Well, there's the small matter of every
one of the 555 getting their money back.
635
00:41:07,001 --> 00:41:09,925
And then there's the
small matter of the right
636
00:41:09,937 --> 00:41:13,000
people holding up their
hands to take the blame.
637
00:41:13,001 --> 00:41:15,000
All the vendors.
638
00:41:15,001 --> 00:41:17,000
The British government.
639
00:41:17,001 --> 00:41:19,000
Why?
640
00:41:19,001 --> 00:41:24,000
Well, because the government
is the one and only owner of the
641
00:41:24,001 --> 00:41:27,000
good ship post office, which
doesn't have a penny in its coffers,
642
00:41:27,001 --> 00:41:30,000
owing to the fact it's
spent it all fighting us.
643
00:41:30,001 --> 00:41:32,436
All of which means that
in the end, a Majesty's
644
00:41:32,448 --> 00:41:35,000
government is going to
have to hold up its hands,
645
00:41:35,001 --> 00:41:40,000
except responsibility for this fiasco,
and pay us the compensation we deserve.
646
00:41:40,001 --> 00:41:42,432
When people say the
government, they really
647
00:41:42,444 --> 00:41:45,000
mean taxpayer, but
nobody would begrudge you.
648
00:41:45,001 --> 00:41:48,000
We established the truth
in the court of law, James.
649
00:41:48,001 --> 00:41:54,000
And now, I'm focusing on the 555
who need their lives putting that together.
650
00:41:54,001 --> 00:41:56,000
You don't give up, do you?
You're awkward, son.
651
00:41:56,001 --> 00:42:00,000
Well, someone's got to be.
652
00:42:00,001 --> 00:42:06,000
Alan, cast your mind back, if
you will, to the summer of 2013.
653
00:42:06,001 --> 00:42:08,000
Bob was doing his review.
654
00:42:08,001 --> 00:42:10,000
And you were fighting
me every inch of the way.
655
00:42:10,001 --> 00:42:12,000
I was right, though.
656
00:42:12,001 --> 00:42:17,000
And at the same time, the post
office in secret, and at the highest level,
657
00:42:17,001 --> 00:42:21,000
were commissioning
independent legal advice.
658
00:42:21,001 --> 00:42:25,447
This lawyer's report
establishes beyond doubt that the
659
00:42:25,459 --> 00:42:30,000
post office lied to and were
in contempt of Parliament.
660
00:42:30,001 --> 00:42:32,000
You were right.
661
00:42:32,001 --> 00:42:33,855
It also improves that
all the time we were
662
00:42:33,867 --> 00:42:36,000
waiting through treatment
trying to investigate.
663
00:42:36,001 --> 00:42:39,792
Senior post office executives
were shredding documents and
664
00:42:39,804 --> 00:42:44,000
failing to disclose that they
knew they were unsafe convictions.
665
00:42:44,001 --> 00:42:46,000
Did Paul and her?
666
00:42:46,001 --> 00:42:50,000
It's not possible to
say with any certainty.
667
00:42:50,001 --> 00:42:57,000
I want to say that I'm deeply sorry for
those subpostmasters who have suffered.
668
00:42:57,001 --> 00:43:02,000
I have read many of their
stories, and they are harrowing.
669
00:43:02,001 --> 00:43:05,000
They are with me every day.
670
00:43:05,001 --> 00:43:11,000
I was and remain deeply
disturbed by what has come to light.
671
00:43:11,001 --> 00:43:16,206
It is contrary to what I
believe through my time
672
00:43:16,218 --> 00:43:21,000
as CEO of post office
between 2012 and 2019.
673
00:43:21,001 --> 00:43:24,798
I wish to state for
the record that I do
674
00:43:24,810 --> 00:43:29,000
not accept any personal
criminal misconduct.
675
00:43:29,001 --> 00:43:37,001
This judgment concerns 42 men and women
who were all prosecuted by their employer.
676
00:43:58,001 --> 00:44:04,000
And convicted of crimes of dishonesty.
677
00:44:04,001 --> 00:44:10,000
Josephine Hamilton pleaded guilty
to 14 counts of false accounting.
678
00:44:10,001 --> 00:44:16,000
There was no examination of
the data for bugs, errors or defects.
679
00:44:16,001 --> 00:44:24,001
There was no proof of an actual loss as
opposed to an horizon generated shortage.
680
00:44:25,001 --> 00:44:28,959
Even more alarming
post office limits its own
681
00:44:28,971 --> 00:44:34,000
investigator had reported
there was no evidence of theft.
682
00:44:34,001 --> 00:44:41,000
We conclude Mrs Hamilton's prosecution
was unfair and an affront to justice.
683
00:44:41,001 --> 00:44:44,000
We allow her appeal.
684
00:44:44,001 --> 00:44:48,000
We quash her convictions.
685
00:44:48,001 --> 00:44:54,000
Not withstanding his guilty plea,
nor Thomas' conviction is unsafe.
686
00:44:54,001 --> 00:44:56,000
We allow his appeal.
687
00:44:56,001 --> 00:45:01,000
His prosecution was unfair
and an affront to justice.
688
00:45:01,001 --> 00:45:05,000
In the case of Susan
Radkin, we allow her appeal.
689
00:45:05,001 --> 00:45:07,000
Her conviction is unsafe.
690
00:45:07,001 --> 00:45:11,556
Very sadly, three of the applicants,
Julian Wilson, Peter Holmes and
691
00:45:11,568 --> 00:45:16,000
Dawn O'Connell have not lived to
see the outcome of their appeals.
692
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:24,000
She's the first office
court to go to prison.
693
00:45:24,001 --> 00:45:25,000
No, no, no.
694
00:45:25,001 --> 00:45:27,000
I've been touched here.
695
00:45:27,001 --> 00:45:28,000
I know what it's like.
696
00:45:28,001 --> 00:45:30,000
It doesn't do any good.
697
00:45:30,001 --> 00:45:33,000
Fit them in their pockets.
698
00:45:33,001 --> 00:45:35,000
Take their money off them.
699
00:45:35,001 --> 00:45:37,000
It's the only rule I'm the gentleman.
700
00:45:37,001 --> 00:45:40,000
Good lad, when you go.
701
00:45:40,001 --> 00:45:43,000
You should have come
down for these appeals.
702
00:45:43,001 --> 00:45:47,000
It's about these.
703
00:45:47,001 --> 00:45:49,000
It's true.
704
00:45:49,001 --> 00:45:51,000
There she is.
705
00:45:51,001 --> 00:45:54,000
Oh, I don't know.
706
00:45:54,001 --> 00:45:57,000
We've waited so long for this day.
707
00:45:57,001 --> 00:45:59,000
Some of us didn't make it.
708
00:45:59,001 --> 00:46:01,000
People have died, you know?
709
00:46:01,001 --> 00:46:05,000
And all we ever wanted was for the truth
to come out and for someone to listen.
710
00:46:05,001 --> 00:46:07,000
It didn't have to be like this.
711
00:46:07,001 --> 00:46:10,000
All these good people,
their lives in ruins.
712
00:46:10,001 --> 00:46:15,000
When you look at us,
do we let like criminals?
713
00:46:15,001 --> 00:46:18,000
Bob!
714
00:46:18,001 --> 00:46:21,000
Thank you, I've been running quite far.
715
00:46:21,001 --> 00:46:23,000
Not just unfair, but look at this.
716
00:46:23,001 --> 00:46:25,000
And a front to justice.
717
00:46:25,001 --> 00:46:26,000
That's like twice as bad.
718
00:46:26,001 --> 00:46:28,000
No, that's 100 times as bad.
719
00:46:28,001 --> 00:46:31,000
You lambs to the slope and they leave.
720
00:46:31,001 --> 00:46:36,000
Give it to us.
721
00:46:36,001 --> 00:46:42,000
Hey you.
722
00:46:42,001 --> 00:46:44,000
You make me cry about this.
723
00:46:44,001 --> 00:46:46,000
First of all, let's go.
724
00:46:46,001 --> 00:46:48,000
Judge have been Hamilton and others.
725
00:46:48,001 --> 00:46:50,000
First is the first office.
726
00:46:50,001 --> 00:46:52,000
Look at that.
727
00:46:52,001 --> 00:46:54,000
That's what we did.
728
00:46:54,001 --> 00:46:56,000
Look what you did.
729
00:46:56,001 --> 00:46:58,000
Good.
730
00:46:58,001 --> 00:47:00,000
Good.
731
00:47:00,001 --> 00:47:01,000
Good.
732
00:47:01,001 --> 00:47:02,000
Good.
733
00:47:02,001 --> 00:47:03,000
Good.
734
00:47:03,001 --> 00:47:04,000
Good.
735
00:47:04,001 --> 00:47:06,000
Good job.
736
00:47:06,001 --> 00:47:08,000
Good job.
737
00:47:08,001 --> 00:47:16,001
It's jaw-droppingly significant.
738
00:47:20,001 --> 00:47:22,436
The judges have not
only ruled that Joe and the
739
00:47:22,448 --> 00:47:25,000
others were wrongfully
convicted, but even worse.
740
00:47:25,001 --> 00:47:27,939
But the post office decision to
prosecute them was so wrong
741
00:47:27,951 --> 00:47:31,000
that it amounts to an affront
to the conscience of the court.
742
00:47:31,001 --> 00:47:37,000
This has to be the widest miscarriage
of justice in British legal history.
743
00:47:37,001 --> 00:47:41,000
Good job.
744
00:47:41,001 --> 00:47:43,000
Good job.
745
00:47:43,001 --> 00:47:46,000
Good job.
746
00:47:46,001 --> 00:47:50,000
Good job.
747
00:47:50,001 --> 00:47:58,001
I know what you're thinking.
748
00:48:15,001 --> 00:48:17,000
Good job.
749
00:48:17,001 --> 00:48:20,000
Well, it's not over, is it?
750
00:48:20,001 --> 00:48:25,000
I hope that we just allow
ourselves to enjoy it.
751
00:48:25,001 --> 00:48:28,000
Okay.
752
00:48:28,001 --> 00:48:36,001
Good job.
753
00:48:47,001 --> 00:48:48,000
Allen.
754
00:48:48,001 --> 00:48:50,000
Just one email.
755
00:48:50,001 --> 00:48:54,000
Minister of Postal Affairs.
756
00:48:54,001 --> 00:49:02,001
Legal costs for our 555 claimants
total now due 46,843,853 pounds.
757
00:49:08,001 --> 00:49:13,000
Plus another month's interest at 8%.
758
00:49:13,001 --> 00:49:15,000
Well, it's up.
759
00:49:15,001 --> 00:49:20,000
On what planet is the government
going to pay our legal costs?
760
00:49:20,001 --> 00:49:22,000
They'll have to.
761
00:49:22,001 --> 00:49:23,000
They own the post office.
762
00:49:23,001 --> 00:49:26,000
So shall I hold? The only one.
763
00:49:26,001 --> 00:49:28,000
The only one.
764
00:49:28,001 --> 00:49:34,000
Awkward enough to sit at his
computer making trouble for 20 years.
765
00:49:34,001 --> 00:49:42,000
20 years so far.
766
00:49:42,001 --> 00:49:46,000
Just think of it as a
hobby that got out of hand.
767
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,000
Preuzeto sa www.titlovi.com
60278
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