All language subtitles for Brian.and.Maggie.S01E02.1080p.HMAX.WEB-DL.DD+2.0.H.264-playWEB_track3_[eng]

What is this change
she's hoping to bring?

Isn't that worth finding out?

Governments aren't conducted
on visions, are they?

No... no. It's a reality.

I see these conversations
as opportunities.

The function
of a political interview is

- so they can platform...
- So they make a judgment about her.

It's to break apart the platform.

You don't fancy a drink, do you?

One mistake,
and they will have me out.

I reckon there's no one you won't
be able to see off, Margaret.

The relationship between
Prime Minister and Chancellor needs

- to be very, very close.
- Absolutely.

Switchboard
have Brian Walden on the phone.

Um... yes.
Would you pass that on to Bernard?

Hold on.

We're less than two days away from
the biggest interview of her career.

Now, maybe my career, too.

And we're wasting time
on this rubbish

about what, about 30... what?

Thirty classic identifiable ways

politicians use
to avoid answering questions.

The nation is waiting to hear

why the most successful
partnership in modern

British politics has just imploded.

Listen, they've been studying
television interviews.

Yeah, well, studying.
I've been doing them.

And the... the most common
30 tactics used to avoid...

Oh, Christ on a bike, my old son.
I've heard them all.

Minister, what about this bad thing
that happened over here?

Well, I think people up and down
the country are more interested in

is this other thing instead.

- Look, the real point is--
- I can't stand "look."

"Look," I'm saying,
like I'm a straight-up fellow

who just wants to
get to the point

when really,
I'm using look to pivot

to an entirely different point.

Look, I'm not going
into hypotheticals now.

- Yeah, right. Yeah.
- That's number 20.

With regards to Thatcher, Brian.

Look, when...
You've got me doing it now.

But ,look.

when it comes to the old girl, okay,
I... I get her to talk.

You do? And her mean reply rate

is higher
than most of the politicians.

She actually does want to talk,
to debate.

Her main tactic is number four.
Questioning the question.

All right, well, thank you,
but I will get her to answer.

I always get her to answer.

Stretch her out...

We wanted to raise...
we, being myself and Geoffrey

and the governor
of the Bank of England.

I know who everyone is, Nigel.
Raise the issue.

Of Europe again, Prime Minister.

And in particular, the proposed
European exchange rate mechanism.

Excuse me.
The exchange rate mechanism.

Well, forgive me,
but I thought we were here

to discuss our economic plan.

This is regarding
the economy, Margaret.

Our plan is working.

The great hulking liner
is finally turning.

But we can't deny it.
It's all incredibly vulnerable.

Bound to be. We've introduced
some shock into the system

and it's still trying to...
to settle.

It's about stability, Margaret.

And tying Sterling to
the Deutsche Mark would create that.

Chancellor, you and I know that
when it comes to our ties with Europe

free trade is one thing.

Who doesn't believe in that?

I campaigned to stay in Europe

during the referendum
because of trade

but sacrificing Britain's
fiscal powers, the political freedom

to manage our destiny...

I think that's a little exaggerated.

And the governor
of the Bank of England agrees.

That's right, Prime Minister.

With inflation rising again,
currencies unstable--

And Foreign Secretary Geoffrey.

We can't risk
being isolated. Margaret.

The cabinet is pretty agreed
on a single union.

No, it isn't. How can it be?

I'm the leader of the cabinet,
and I don't agree.

So it is not agreed.

Why did you all arrive together?

Arrive? I'm sorry?

Today, this morning,
you all came over together

from the direction of the treasury.

I saw you. Makes me wonder
if I've missed the real meeting.

Oh, Margaret. We just...

we bumped into each other en route.

Alan thinks that binding
currencies is a ploy

to creating one single currency.

Alan? not Alan Walters.

- Who even is he?
- He's my advisor, Nigel.

I've got my advisors.
You've got your advisors.

No, I've heard your case,
and I'm vetoing it for now.

We can revisit Europe
when we've got a firmer grip

on the other gears
of the economy, Nigel.

Doing what you do so well.
Domestic matters.

Yes, Prime Minister.

What do I have to do?

It's always the same.
Patronizing, condescending.

They'll leak it.

It's happened in the past.
It's happening more.

Europe.

The old "Trouble at mill."

If you gave me greater latitude,
I could start getting ahead

of these types of stories.

Write these stories better
ourselves with those friends

in the press eager to hear it.

Those who appreciate
what we're trying to achieve.

Yes.

The recipients of
the Richard Dimbleby Award this year

can only be described as a true
master of the long-form interview.

Television's chief interrogator,
Brian Walden.

Thank you. Thank you.

My, oh my.

I stand here
on the shoulders of giants.

We should be proud in this country
that we've made

the political interview a more
effective instrument of liberty

than any other peoples
in the democratic world.

And in a changing world,
it's something which should be

protected and celebrated.

And that, I suppose,
is all I've tried to do.

So, thank you.

Why would you
stop now, Brian?

- You'll miss it.
- We did a great thing, Coxy.

You did. The great strategists.

No one's doing long
forensic interviews anymore.

Now, it's all breakfast TV bollocks.
Cozy chit-chats on the sofa.

Five minutes long.
Questions unanswered.

Politicians spouting
their own agendas.

I mean, we came on air
in a time of chaos, confusion.

You know, it needed dissecting.
I'm looking forward to retirement.

Nice little column
in the Sunday Times.

Enjoy the new home over the water
where I can read

- play chess.
- Avoid tax.

If one more person prints that...
I did not move to Guernsey

- for the tax, it was for the food.
- Look, I...

Anyway, it turns out

I was all right at all this,
after all.

A good interviewer in the end.

Good night. Brian.

Well, she's done it.

The first prime minister
in over 150 years

to win three consecutive terms.

Given the strength
of the economy

t's frankly increasingly hard

to imagine anyone else in charge.

Mr. Nigel Lawson.

Mr. Speaker, I am reliably informed
that my budget speech

will have a claim
to a place in the history books.

Last untelevised budget speech.

This government has already reduced
the top rate of income tax

from the absurd 83% under Labour

to 60%.

Now, I believe that it is time for
a further reduction in the top rate.

I propose to abolish
all higher rates of tax.

Sure she won't be long, Brian.

All good. Don't fret.

- Brian.
- Margaret.

- It's been a while.
- It has.

How are the family? How's retirement?

All good. Print is a lot less
exhausting than television.

Well, shall we get started?
Sit. Sit, please.

Are you not taking notes?

Oh, I thought we'd start with a bit
of general chit-chat background.

Like the old days.

Except that I want a few things
out there, as it were.

With your help.

What's mine is yours.

Um...

so, quite the budget fireworks.

Yes. Nigel is a genius at all that,
isn't he?

And our shared plan
is going pretty well.

Record growth.

Yes, of course, but, it's all a bit
relentless, isn't it? Uh...

Exhausting, even. Don't you worry
the public will become weary

of this constant sense of mission,
of battling on all fronts?

Don't you yearn for calmer periods,
for a for a rest, even?

- A rest?
- Well, no prime minister

this century has had
a bigger impact on the nation

bar Attlee and Churchill.

- That's... that's some legacy.
- Yes.

I'm very, very pleased to have
increased the wealth of the nation

and of those individuals
willing to work hard

and claim their share of it.

Well, you're now a millionaire
yourself, aren't you, Brian?

Oh. Well, um... yes, I am.

I... I heard off the record that you
took a line out of Nigel's speech.

Something about Europe
and fixing currencies.

Fixing currencies.

Goodness,
that does sound awfully dry.

No. On the future,
on what's coming up.

Water privatization.

There you are.
Private companies competing.

Finding inefficiencies.

Well, then, on the future, um...

who do you see
as your natural successor?

Off the record, I don't.

What? I don't see one. Do you?

Well, the other architects
of Thatcherism.

Nigel. Geoffrey.

The other?

I think the clue
is in the name, isn't it?

Well...

look, on a personal level, Margaret

I worry that if you are less
connected to the party

less available to colleagues

- to everyone than you used to be...
- Less available?

How am I less available?

But you remain this compelling,
almost bewildering

uh, fascination to people.

To me still, you're like this wild,
exotic animal in a zoo.

Well, I mean, as you know,
Parliament has caved and is now

letting cameras into the Commons.

The lens scrutinizing us
as we tussle and debate.

You don't get much more available
than that, now, do you?

Anyway, anything you can do
to plant a few of those flags

for the wobblers, the wets.

"I have interviewed the Prime
Minister many times over the years.

She currently sees no successor
and will want to lead her party

into the 1991 election, even 1995.

Yet the Margaret Thatcher I know
is not the one I read about.

I find her frank

without snobbery
and willing to tolerate

a fair bit of leg-pulling.

I've never met this other Thatcher,
the arch-fiend

who has no human feelings
and cannot be contradicted."

Caroline, I'd like another session
with Veronique today.

Yes. Thank you.

"She always denies it

but the accusation
that she is ill-tempered

and authoritarian does wound her
and drive this passionate woman

back inside herself.

I worry that such repression
leads one toward greater stubbornness

and imbalance, there
to mask a deep loneliness within."

Bravo! Bravo!

What a decade! What a woman.

- What a leader!
- Hear, hear!

Yes.

Never before. You have
to go back to the 1800s.

And the way she has smashed through.

Thank you. Bernard.

Let's not make
a song and dance about it.

Forgive me. I'm zipping it.

It's closed.

No. And actually, joking aside,
I mean it.

Because, you see,
anniversaries are fun.

They're very nice, but they're
naturally focused on the past.

That place where all
of our predecessors

have been determined to return.

- That's right.
- Well, I'm not going to live there.

- I'm only interested in the future.
- Well said!

To a fourth term, maybe a fifth.

Because, you see,
you can change a country in a decade.

- Think of Britain in 1979.
- Yeah.

A place that had lost
its convictions, was exhausted

couldn't keep the lights on.

And now look.

That's what we survey
from these giddy heights.

- The ruins of socialism.
- Yeah.

There is still plenty to do.

So, yes, chin-chin.

- But let's get on and do it.
- Ten and not out.

Bravo, Maggie.
And here's to ten more years.

Alan sodding Walters.

Well, that was pretty
bloody confident of him.

Tactical, more like.
The devil does he think he is?

Part-time adviser.
Playing the fucking favorite.

Well, I could schedule
a wind-your-neck-in meeting.

If we're at
the wind-your-neck-in stage.

Do whatever you like.
She always does.

Economic... doing the rounds again.

Rather in contravention
of official policy.

I think she's losing her instinct.
The way she speaks, behaves.

Well, we should consider
giving her a gentle ultimatum.

Europe. We want further in
or we resign. In Madrid.

Next European Council.

Stand up to her.

Yes, I better had.

Look at you, Alan.
Professor of Economics.

Born into poverty.
Left state school with nothing.

Kesteven and Grantham Girls' School.

Westminster, Winchester, Eton

Haberdashers Aske's, Westminster.

Their problem is,
they think the job is done.

No more hard choices.

You know, he's trying to link
the pound to European currency.

It's been unofficially shadowing
the Deutsch Mark

for the past 11 months.

- Nigel's doing.
- Yes, I know.

Yes. Well, let's talk now.

Oh, it's so good of you to come.

I'm never going to forget.
Thank you so much.

Hello.

Fucking snake in the grass.

You were there
because you really helped...

- Prime Minister.
- Do sit.

How was Kuala Lumpur?

Geoffrey, I'm going to have
a little move-around of people.

You've served your country well.

But as the government negotiates
its new relationship with Europe

I think fresh blood is needed
in the Foreign Office.

I should very much like
to offer you the role

of Deputy Prime Minister
in the reshuffle.

- Margaret.
- Geoffrey, don't do the quiet voice.

Just speak up.

If this is about Madrid, we just feel
strongly that further integration...

Geoffrey, I have won
three consecutive elections.

The only person
to have done so in 160 years.

I don't know
who I still need to convince

or why I need to convince them
that I might, might, just might know

what's best for this country.

But clearly I do.
Do you accept your new role?

I fear for you, Margaret.

This habit of just
hammering away at people. It...

You've been so good at
vanquishing your opponents

that you've run out of enemies.

And I worry in looking for them,
you might create them.

Do you accept?

I will serve the government
in whatever capacity.

Prime Minister.

Coxy. Hiding under
a bridge like a troll.

- How are you doing, my old son?
- I'm good.

You know... shall we?

You see this?

Yes. I still have all my faculties.

"Is it curtains for this instrument
of democratic dialogue?"

The franchise is up for renewal,
and LWT is

down on its public service quota.

The amount of money they would
throw at you to come back.

I have enough money, David.

- How much?
- And also, how does this sound?

The Walden Interview.

That's a bit gauche, isn't it?

Well, it doesn't have to be that.

Hold on. I'm just getting used to it.

Come on.

Let's get all the... pointy heads
back together again.

Proper forensic interviews once more.

Things are shifting, Brian.
They're...

not as certain as they once were.

She's not.

Surely you can see that.

Bernard Ingham called.

Thatcher will do an interview,
so long as it's you.

Brian.

Oh. No. No. Please, please.

Yes... yes.

Ah, the pointy heads.

The nerds have retaken Rome.

Your revised diary
for the rest of the week.

Tonight's thing at the Royal Society
and the Walden Interview Saturday.

Recorded in the morning.
Going out Sunday.

Mm-hmm. Good.

- And?
- The Chancellor of the Exchequer

is here, Margaret.

We weren't due to meet till 9:45.

Yes, I know.

Tell him I'll be down in a minute.

- Good morning, Nigel.
- Good morning.

I wasn't expecting you so early.
Shall we?

Right. Come on in.
Why don't you sit down?

I'll stand, thank you.

I'm afraid I've come to the view
that my position is untenable.

Oh, goodness, Nigel.

Are we really going
to go through this all over again?

How many more times?

My authority as chancellor
is being undermined.

Nobody is undermining you,
Nigel. It's complete nonsense.

As regards to Walters,
either I'm in charge...

What do you think the mood
of the backbenchers is today?

The mood is one of, what a mess.

And one backbench Tory

decided not to go along
with the Thatcher-Baker

game plan of praising the wonderful
new team, and said instead

that Mrs. Thatcher herself must go.

Mrs. Thatcher's rendered

the most tremendous services

to the party and to the nation

and when I say
that this is now the time

for her to render the supreme service

and actually to step down

it can only be downhill for her
from now on.

- And she...
- And...

we just happen
to have her on air in two days.

So we're tossing
everything out, then?

No, not everything.

Not the substance of it. But we do...

No need for this.

We're going to have to open hard
with who is to blame, him or her.

We've been hitting
backbenchers with the phones.

What, literally?

There's a phrase that keeps coming up
over and over. "Off her trolley."

I mean, they genuinely think
she might be losing it.

Well, I'm not about to level that
at the Prime Minister.

- It's bloody rude, for a start.
- And sexist, if you ask me.

- Women of a certain age.
- Yeah.

Uh... David.

Thoughts? Approach.

Well, this is now
about her character.

When a single individual
becomes an "ism"

so embedded in the fabric
of the country that frankly

her character has become
the character of the country

that we are all, like it or not...

Thatcherites now...

why shouldn't we know a little bit
more about who that person is and

how she is and...
what is she becoming.

And like it or not

we happen to have
just about the only person

in the media who got anywhere near
to knowing her.

- Very well.
- David, phone call.

We're doing a program about her,
about who she is.

So let's get going again.
How do we start?

How do we get into this?
Because, Brian, the first thing--

Shh. Ingham.

Look, it's not going
to work for us.

We did ask for flowers.

- Flowers?
- Dressing on the set.

- It looks too hard.
- No, we never--

She wants flowers.
She finds them calming.

Or in her eyeline.

No, we don't do flowers on this show,
Bernard.

Vigorous and fair analysis, yes,
but not flowers.

Sorry, I must insist.
Or we might have to...

Is it me, or did I keep
hearing the word "flowers"?

They're trying to soften her.
Won't work.

- They're panicking.
- They'll pull it.

She won't want to lose face.
She'll do it.

She will.

Because she trusts you, Brian.

Well, it happens to all
of them at the end, doesn't it?

Caesar. Napoleon.

Power corrupts. What do they say?

After seven years,
they all basically go mad.

Maybe she has lost her instincts.

I mean, look at the poll tax.
Madness. From a levy on property

to a tax on individuals.

A... a pensioner
paying the same as a duke.

That's... that's not
the Thatcherism I understood.

It's the Thatcherism I understood.

Ah... Okay. Go on.

- Sorry, but historically...
- No, no.

Let's thrash it out
like we always do.

Are you not better off now
than you were ten years ago?

Well, define "better off" and...

Money in your pocket.

Okay, but I bet I'm not half as
better off as those at the very top.

Oh, right, I see. So it's class envy.

I'm agreeing with you.

The poll tax. There's always
been a blindness to some

of the losers of the project.

- The victims.
- Victims of what? Of affluence?

Jesus Christ, from the places you
come from, the Midlands, the North.

Stripped of their manufacturing base
for a dominant...

Yes, the efficient outstripping
the inefficient.

Hard work-reward,
the fairest system we have.

You don't believe that.
There is real pain, Brian.

I'm not saying I believe it,
but we're testing it.

And I would say that most
ordinary folk don't mind the pain

that comes with higher wages,
greater consumer choice, nicer cars.

We used to have communities,
and now we just have stuff.

There you go. Don't argue.

Well, well, the man of the hour
here with friends.

So you must all feel like
the cat who's got the cream

or the interview of the year.

- And...
- What timing.

- And I suppose...
- Yes, she's still doing it.

As if she wouldn't, huh.

Even though
it'll all be about Lawson now.

Anybody else, can you imagine?

Back out in a heartbeat.
But, Margaret...

Do you think you actually know her?
The person?

I mean, I claim to understand her,
but I wonder if I do.

I wonder if anyone does.

Any steers would,
of course, be welcome.

As per. On the record, above board.

"Off her trolley."

He's your favorite for a reason.
He's a friend.

Be a walk in the park.

If we're... you're finally going to
break open Thatcherism

her platform,
you may need to break her first.

And what if I helped her build it
in the first place?

I'm good. I'm a good interviewer.
I know what I have to do.

The music has stopped
and I'm the one in the chair.

But it's up to her.

If she wants to listen
and engage and help herself

then we can move on.

Or she can hang herself.
But it's up to her.

Brian, you're not a good interviewer.

You're an exceptional one.

- Just this way, please...
- Thank you.

Margaret, how are you?

Well, Brian. Always well.

Now, I expect you'll be
starting off with you-know-who

and you-know-what.

Hello. Good morning.

But I do hope we can then move on
to something of more substance.

Like we usually do.

Okay. All set?

Roll VTR. Stand by, studio.

Okey-dokey. Here we go, then.

Good luck.

Good afternoon.

Nigel Lawson's shock resignation
has plunged the Prime Minister

into the most serious
political crisis of her career.

Prime Minister, many people,
including many of your supporters

blame you for the resignation.

Prime ministers don't survive
their chancellors resigning.

Now, how you respond to these
claims may be of crucial significance

for you personally
and for your government.

And so I put it to you,
are you to blame?

Well, we have done very well
together for the past six years

and very well for Britain.

And I think the results
are clear to see.

To me the Chancellor's position
was unassailable.

I always supported him,
and I said, quite clearly

advisers are there to advise,
ministers are there to decide.

And that is how we did business
and we did so very successfully.

I tried very hard to dissuade
the Chancellor from going

- but he had made up his mind.
- But--

So in the end, I had to accept his
resignation and appoint someone else.

But you're not claiming that,
Prime Minister

and I must press you on this.

Clearly, Lawson did not think
you were seen to agree

or he would not have resigned.

He did resign.

Nigel's position,
as I said to him, is unassailable.

Well, it's not now, is he? He's gone.

That is his choice.

Oof! Wow! Strike one.

"Unassailable." That's not true.

He wasn't. But she keeps saying it.

We don't let that slide.

Good, Brian. Don't let up.

I tried to persuade him to stay.

I could not believe he would go

when he's been
such a strong chancellor.

I was sad, but then one had
to accept it and set about

refashioning one's cabinet.

But, Prime Minister,
it is fairly clear, is it not

what was getting up Nigel's nose?

It was not that you had
an economic adviser, Alan Walters

who quietly and silently
would whisper things into your ear...

Brian. I'm not going to get involved
in this tittle-tattle.

There are far bigger things
to consider.

I'm concerned with getting on
with the job, and that I shall do.

Prime Minister, I could not agree
with you more about tittle-tattle.

As you well know,
I have nothing to do with it myself.

He's certainly pushing it.

Some argue that the constant flow
of rumor and speculation

about yourself and Walters

is undermining the pound
and the British economy.

Now, that is what Lawson objected to.

Why did you not, when he
asked you to, sack Alan Walters?

I'm not responsible for rumors.

I see many things in the press
that are totally and utterly false.

Totally and utterly.
I'm not responsible for those.

- Now, let us consider policy.
- All right.

- Well, then, let us consider Lawson.
- Well, he's going for it.

We'll move on as soon
as she answers the question.

I have to take it from
the way you put it, Prime Minister

that you blame Nigel
for the resignation and not yourself.

Nigel was a very successful,
brilliantly successful chancellor.

To me, his position was unassailable
and I supported him.

Now it is the future that matters.

It is, but it is also your
political position, Prime Minister.

And I have to question you
about that. And you know that I do.

Yes, do. Do question.

- Go ahead.
- So let me ask you again.

Why did Nigel resign?

You said that he knew
he was unassailable

and he knew that you loved him

and everything was marvelous,
but he resigned.

Now people are going
to want to know why.

I think that is a question
you must put to him and not to me.

Well, he's coming on next week,
so I will have the chance.

She didn't know. Look at her.

But I have to put it back to you.

And you know that I do.
He was "unassailable," you say.

You were in
complete agreement, you say.

And everything was going well,
you say.

And Nigel said, "Margaret, you have
got to get rid of Alan Walters."

Why didn't you,
and keep your Chancellor?

- I am concerned with future policy.
- I want to come on to future policy.

But I also want to clear this up,
which will not just go away.

- One last question.
- Look, I...

Do you deny that Nigel would have
stayed if you had sacked Walters?

I don't know.

Did Margaret Thatcher just admit
that she doesn't know everything?

I... I don't know.

And you never, ever thought
to ask him?

I did everything possible
to stop him.

I was not successful.

Now you are going on
asking the same question.

Minister,
that is a terrible admission.

You do not know if you could have
kept your Chancellor, possibly

if you had sacked
your part-time adviser.

I wanted to keep him.

Now, that is
the big fact of the matter.

And I'm not going on with this.

I've not really seen Brian
like this before.

That's because no one's
seen her like this before.

On the ropes.

Let me put this to you,
Prime Minister. Um...

It is a point that has always
interested me and which I feel

is now politically relevant.

It may well be that in private
you will have a lusty argument

and listen to the opinions of others,
and be only too happy to accept

a suggestion if it is correct.

But you never come over
in public like that, ever.

You come over as someone

who, one of your
backbenchers described

as being "slightly off her trolley."

- Oh...
- Christ.

He went for it early. Uh...
20 seconds to the ad break.

- Tittle-tattle arguments.
- These are your backbenchers.

Now, let us get on
to the political argument.

It is not tittle-tattle,
Prime Minister.

When you get down
to the House of Commons this week

I assure you,
you will hear very little else.

We must return to this
after the break.

Whew.

Will you excuse me?

I want to speak to them.
This is totally unacceptable.

Why doesn't she get it?

Why can't she bend just a little?
Give an inch.

Because we were taught not to.

People like us...

they wouldn't let us in
if we were weak.

What on earth is going on out there?

Betrayal.

Are you ready?

Yes, ready.

Right. Studio.

Five, four...

three, two...

I suppose I must ask you
one more time.

You have asked me, Brian,
the same question about five times.

Uh, just once more.

You say that you do not know
if you could have kept Lawson

uh, if Walters had gone.
Did he ask you to sack Walters?

I'm not going to disclose
the conversations

which the two of us had together.

I'm immensely grateful for Nigel's
stewardship as chancellor.

And let's face it, Brian,
he was chancellor.

uh, look, I cannot get you to say,
Prime Minister

what you do not want to say.

But of course, you are aware
of what people will assume

from this discussion, aren't you?

It is one of the reasons there
have been trouble in the markets.

Now, Brian, you must be quite crazy.

Lord, what are they doing
to each other?

Do you really think that kind
of situation between Chancellor

and Prime Minister
could have gone on for six years?

No, but it could have
for 18 months, couldn't it?

- One moment.
- It's what everyone thinks.

No, they do not.

And you've gone from six years
to 18 months pretty smartly.

Let's get it down to 18 days
or 18 minutes. 18 seconds.

Brian, you are talking nonsense.

Now let's get down to the way
people now copy "Thatcherism"

as they call it, the world over,
the way they listen to us.

You could not have had all of that
unless Nigel and I had worked

very closely together.

We did. Now, don't you want
to face the future?

I do, and I'm ready to face it.

I am anxious to talk about
the future, Prime Minister.

- Uh, so let us switch from Lawson.
- Good.

There are some
who draw a lesson in all this.

They say Margaret Thatcher
has problems

with strong independent figures.

Look at Heseltine.
Look at even Sir Geoffrey Howe.

She just cannot get on
with anyone except yes men.

Now, is that true?

No. And it is a great insult
to members of my cabinet

and you know it.

You also know from many,
many years arguing with me

that I enjoy a good argument.

- Yes, I know.
- Yes, I like strong people about me.

Yes, I'm prepared to argue anything.
Yes, I'm prepared to listen.

Why?

Because I want the result
to be right.

So what you are saying again
is nonsense and you know it.

Well, let me try and sum you up.

And you do not accept
that any of the resignations

from your government have arisen
because you cannot handle strong men.

You like a good argument,
and in private you will listen

to other people's opinions.

But you come over as domineering,
refusing to listen to anybody else.

Why? Why can you not project publicly
what you've just told me

is your private character?

Brian, if anyone is coming over
as domineering in this interview

it's you. Hammering things home

instead of just talking about them
in a conversational way.

- You think so?
- Yes.

You are very domineering
at the moment.

Now let us deal with
the authoritarian thing quietly.

The whole characteristic
of the government that I lead

is to limit its powers
and hand powers over to people.

It is socialism
that is authoritarian.

It is socialism
that says you must conform.

I am totally different.

It is the reverse.
What you are saying is the reverse.

Well, actually I was not,
in fact denying any of that.

It may be true, it may not be true.

But since you thought
I was domineering you

I thought I would let you
say a lot of it.

But you know
what it is I'm getting at.

Do you not think it would be truer
to your own nature

if you said in front of the public
who think you are dogmatic

and that you are not listening
to anyone

why don't you say, "Well, all right.
I had a quarrel with Nigel.

Perhaps there are faults
on both sides.

I accept a little bit of blame.

I should have been more
sensitive to his worries."

Why don't you say that?

Neither of us is faultless.
No one is claiming that.

Of course we have faults.

Of course I take the blame
for many things that go wrong.

Now and then, a little credit
for things that go right.

That is life. What is the problem?

I can almost sense the desire
to accept a measure of blame

trembling on your lips,
but it will not quite come out.

You are having
a highly artificial argument.

It is the one the country
wants to hear about.

Now, I think the impact
of this interview, Prime Minister

though you may think differently,
but many people will feel

that nothing that has happened has
in any way shaken or chastened you.

And that will, of course, worry some.

And they will say the Prime Minister
remains absolutely unyielding

about everything, and although
she may have done a good job

it is time, perhaps,
for someone who is more yielding.

- What do you say to that?
- Nonsense, Brian.

I am staying my own sweet,
reasonable self.

- Okay. Wind up.
- Founded on very strong convictions.

Counting down to the end in ten.

Which were a combination
of reason and emotion.

- Eight...
- I feel passionately

about personal liberty.

- ...five...
- Government is there to serve.

- I'm afraid I must stop you there.
- No, you must not.

- I'm afraid I must.
- Strong leadership will continue.

Zero.

All right. Thank you, everyone.
Let's clear the studio.

- That is it.
- Prime Minister, drinks?

There you are.
Thank you very much.

I'll be along shortly.

- Thank you.
- If you'd like to follow me.

This way.

That's no excuse.
You should keep yourself informed.

You should do your homework.

Now, did you know that the Dutch
have already got rid of

their foreign exchange controls?

And Luxembourg...

And yes, it's fascinating.

Good show, Brian. Uh...

- thorough.
- Thank you.

Well, I think it's time I went.

- Thank you very much.
- Thank you.

Have a great weekend, everyone.

Lovely flowers.

So I wonder how many are watching.

At the end of the day,
it's only telly.

And I fear that my right honorable
friend, the Prime Minister

increasingly risks leading herself
and others astray

in matters of substance
as well as of style.

It's rather like sending
your opening batsmen to the crease

only for them to find the moment
the first balls are bowled

that their bats have been broken
before the game by the team captain.

We interrupt
this program with breaking news.

Mrs. Thatcher is to resign
as prime minister.

A short while ago,
Downing Street confirmed she is

to step down
and will not be contesting

the second ballot for the leadership.

There is one statistic
that I understand

is not however, challenged
over her 11 years.

The gap between
the richest ten percent

and the poorest ten percent
has widened substantially.

What the honorable member
is saying is that he would

- rather the poor were poorer.
- Hear, hear!

Provided that the rich
were less rich.

That way, you will never create
the wealth

for better social services,
as we have done.

And what a policy.

They would rather that the gap
were that.

Down here. That.

Not that. That.

So long as the gap is smaller, they
would rather the poor were poorer.

You do not create wealth
and opportunity that way.

You do not create a property-owning
democracy that way.

I'm enjoying this.

I'm enjoying this.

It's a vision. But governments aren't
conducted on visions, are they?

- Oh, no... no. It's a reality.
- Well--

It's taking all the factors
into account.

It's not a vision.