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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,237 Gary, it's started! 2 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,877 Wait. Wait! 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:14,877 Hey, you're in our way. 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:16,877 Well, erm... 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,877 KIDS CHATTER 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,237 KNOCK AT DOOR 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,960 BELL RINGING 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:25,960 Oh, I'll get it, shall I? 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,877 Move! You move. 10 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:30,878 Behave. 11 00:00:30,961 --> 00:00:32,717 KIDS CHATTER 12 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:33,877 Oh, hi. Good afternoon. 13 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:35,877 My name's Marion. I live across the street. 14 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:37,877 Oh! Nice to meet you. I'm Ann. 15 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,877 The thing is, Billingham's a nice area. 16 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,917 I'm sure you're perfectly civil yourself, but... 17 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,960 Ah. Here it is. 18 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,960 As you can see, quite a few of the neighbours have already signed it. 19 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,877 You're trying to get rid of us? It's not you. 20 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,877 It's your husband. 21 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,237 All these foreigners pouring off the boats like rats. 22 00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:07,960 Surely, you could've done better for yourself. 23 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:11,960 I think you'd be happier elsewhere, don't you? 24 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:17,960 KIDS CHATTER 25 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,877 TV: 'Oh, can you believe this?' 'That's called character, Alf.' 26 00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:31,237 'Character?! It's a chuffin' health hazard, that's what that is.' 27 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:32,877 CLATTERING 28 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:36,960 DOG BARKING 29 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:55,877 No. 30 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,877 No, I'm not having this. Honestly... 31 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:59,877 No. Love, it's not worth it. 32 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:01,877 Hey! You can shove your petition up your arse! 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,000 And if you ever try anything like that again, you'll be sorry! 34 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,960 WOMAN: Keep it down, will you?! 35 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,877 MAN: Pack it in, will you?! 36 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,960 HE CHUCKLES Hey. 37 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,877 Sorry. No. 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,877 I think I like this side of you. 39 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,960 Really? Well, you'd better get used to it. 40 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,960 MUSIC: 'Pictures Of You' by The Cure 41 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:43,877 ♪ I've been looking so long At these pictures of you 42 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,877 ♪ That I almost believe That they're real 43 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:54,877 ♪ I've been living so long With my pictures of you 44 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,877 ♪ That I almost believe 45 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,960 ♪ That the pictures Are all I can feel. ♪ 46 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,877 You've no need to be nervous. He's a very nice fella. 47 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,877 He could be the spawn of Satan for all I care. 48 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:30,877 As long as he listens to what I have to say. 49 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,160 You don't have to say anything. That's why I'm here. 50 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,640 WOMAN: Hello. Follow me, please. Thanks. 51 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:46,960 It's just round here. 52 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:49,878 Let me do the talking. KNOCK AT DOOR 53 00:03:49,961 --> 00:03:51,397 DOOR OPENS 54 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,877 Back to my constituency on Friday. All right. 55 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,877 Mrs Ming. Mr Ming. Come on in. 56 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,877 Thanks, Isabelle. 57 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:00,397 Frank. Jack. 58 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,397 Thanks for seeing us today. I know how busy you are. 59 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,877 Not at all. Always a pleasure. 60 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,877 So, as I mentioned on the phone, I... 61 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,877 This is our daughter, Mr Straw. 62 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,877 And this? This is the man who murdered her. 63 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,960 That's not an opinion. He confessed to it in a court of law. 64 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,877 Yes, I've been following the case closely, Mrs Ming. 65 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:22,877 Well, I am not happy with the perjury sentence, 66 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:24,877 and I wanna know what you're gonna do about it. 67 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,877 Well, there's not a great deal I can do about it, I'm afraid. 68 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:29,877 Then something needs to be done 69 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:31,877 about changing the double jeopardy law, doesn't it? 70 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,877 Double jeopardy is a very grey area, Mrs Ming. 71 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,160 I'm not bothered what colour it is, I wanna know what you're gonna do. 72 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:48,878 Don't bother with that. 73 00:04:48,961 --> 00:04:50,877 There's no case like ours in that book, 74 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:51,878 or any other, for that matter. 75 00:04:51,961 --> 00:04:53,237 Am I right? 76 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,960 Well, as a matter of fact, you are. 77 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,877 Here's where things currently stand - 78 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:02,877 the Home Affairs Select Committee are recommending 79 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,877 that the double jeopardy law be changed, 80 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,877 and I've asked the Law Commission to undertake their own review, 81 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,877 but this may take years, I'm afraid. 82 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,557 Well, we... we haven't got years. 83 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:16,877 He'll be out before too long. 84 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,877 And once he's out, it'll be a bloody sight harder to get him put back in. 85 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,397 It's a general principle of law-making in this country 86 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,877 that any change should only apply to the future, not the past. 87 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,877 So even if their recommendations are enacted, 88 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,877 the chances of it being applied retrospectively 89 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,557 to historic cases such as yours... 90 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,960 pretty slender, I'm afraid. 91 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,000 I'm sorry, I'm just being honest with you. 92 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,877 OK, well, tell me this. 93 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,960 What would you do if you were in our situation? 94 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,877 If you're to have any chance of success, 95 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,397 you'll have to get the Law Commission on your side. 96 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,237 All right, well, give me the name of the person 97 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,960 I need speak to there, then, please. 98 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,397 You've got grit, I'll give you that. 99 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,877 We've been wronged, Jack. How can I stay silent? 100 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,877 My advice? Don't. 101 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,960 In fact, the louder you are, the better. 102 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,557 Bloody hell. 103 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,960 You just had the Home Secretary eating out of your hand. 104 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,877 Well, I don't know what all the fuss is about. 105 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,237 He's just a man in a slightly better suit than yours. 106 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,960 THEY LAUGH CHARLIE: Good one, love. 107 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:37,877 Have I missed anything? 108 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:39,877 You must be joking. 109 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,877 I've seen encyclopaedias with less detail than this. 110 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,960 Let's just hope they get back to us quickly. 111 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:48,877 I'm gonna go to bed. 112 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,077 What are you doing? 113 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,877 Oh, just some paperwork, love. Sleep tight. 114 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,960 Night, Kev. Night. 115 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,877 What is it? Is it Kev? 116 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,557 I don't think he saw anything. 117 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:08,960 No, erm... 118 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:13,960 I'm thinking of retiring from the NHS. 119 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:16,800 What? 120 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:19,000 Just feels like it's time. 121 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,397 But you love your job. 122 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,877 I know. 123 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,960 But this is gonna need all of my focus and energy now. 124 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,877 What? 125 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,960 You heard what Jack Straw said. 126 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,237 It could take years. 127 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,877 I don't care how long it takes. 128 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:40,960 What if it's five years? 129 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,877 Ten years, even? 130 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,877 And what if after all those years of fighting, 131 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,877 you still don't get the result you want? 132 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,960 We can't think like that. 133 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,917 Look, I know how you feel about all of this, and that's fine. 134 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,960 I don't need your help, but I do need your support. 135 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,960 DOOR CLOSES Oh, hi, love. How was your week? 136 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:33,960 DOOR SLAMS 137 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:37,960 MUSIC PLAYS THROUGH HEADPHONES 138 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,877 KNOCK AT DOOR 139 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:45,000 Come in. 140 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,960 Mind if I sit? 141 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:58,960 Is everything OK, love? 142 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,080 You'd tell me if it wasn't, wouldn't you? 143 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,960 Kev, look, whatever it is, you can be honest with me. 144 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:25,877 SOFTLY: Oh, my God. 145 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,960 Oh, where did you find these? The library. 146 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,877 Some kids at school were saying things. 147 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,800 Oh. Oh, Kev. 148 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,877 I didn't read any more after that one. 149 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:45,960 No, of course you couldn't. 150 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,640 Look, please let me explain... Why would you lie to me? 151 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,877 I don't know. Why? 152 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,557 I don't know, love. I... I didn't mean to hurt you. 153 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,877 We wanted to protect you, that's all. 154 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,877 Not just your grandad and me, but your dad as well. 155 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:03,960 You were so young. 156 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,877 But I am sorry. I'm sorry. 157 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,160 It's not fair. 158 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,877 Look, you can ask me anything you like about her, 159 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:17,877 anything at all, OK? 160 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,877 And I will... 161 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,960 I'll tell you the truth now, I promise. I promise. 162 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,640 She was murdered, wasn't she? 163 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:30,960 Yes. 164 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:33,960 By who? 165 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,077 A man she knew. 166 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:38,960 Is he in prison? 167 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,717 Yeah. For killing my mam? 168 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:43,960 No. 169 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,960 But I'm fighting to put that right. 170 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,397 What do you mean? 171 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:52,877 Well, I'm trying to change the law 172 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,960 so that your mam gets the justice she deserves. 173 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,960 And so I can help other people in the same situation as us. 174 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,960 Why did he kill her? 175 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:08,960 I don't know, love. 176 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,120 I don't think I'll ever know. 177 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,960 But I'm gonna make sure it wasn't for nothing. 178 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:17,877 EXHALES TEARFULLY 179 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Come here. 180 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,960 TEARFULLY: I'm sorry for lying. 181 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,960 SHE SOBS 182 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,877 Why haven't they replied yet? The Law Commission? 183 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,960 Yes, of course the Law Commission. 184 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,877 Sorry. It's just been weeks, Charlie. 185 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,237 Maybe they're just very busy. 186 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:50,877 No. 187 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,877 We've been fobbed off yet again. 188 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:54,960 You don't know that. 189 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,717 Maybe we should go to London. 190 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:01,960 Get a meeting in person. 191 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,237 Well, that might be easier said than done, love. 192 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,960 Well, what do you suggest? You know I can't just give up. 193 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:14,878 SIGHS 194 00:12:14,961 --> 00:12:17,877 I haven't the energy any more, love. 195 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:18,960 I'm sorry. 196 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,320 Told you you should've married someone younger. 197 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:29,960 Charlie. What? 198 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:34,557 Give me your hand. No, it's fine... 199 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:35,960 Give me it. 200 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,877 Oh, darling. 201 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:39,960 It's getting worse. 202 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,557 There's no definitive test for it, 203 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,877 but based on the physical examination and your symptoms, 204 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,877 so the chronic fatigue and tremors, 205 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,397 then I'm afraid it is highly likely. 206 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:54,877 Thank you, doctor. 207 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,877 If you have any questions... No. Thank you. 208 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,877 You've been very helpful. 209 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,960 Come on. Mrs Ming. 210 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,877 ANN EXHALES 211 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,557 Thank you. 212 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:10,960 Charlie, wait. 213 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,800 We will get through this, Charlie. 214 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,960 What about the Law Commission? What are you talking about? 215 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,877 Everything's changed, love. No, it hasn't. 216 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,397 Yes, it has. This is about you now. 217 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,960 It's not, and nor should it be. 218 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,960 Not for a good while anyway. 219 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,877 I don't want you fussing over me. 220 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,000 What I want is for you to keep fighting. 221 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,877 I don't think that's true, Charlie. But it is. You have to, Ann. 222 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,877 Because otherwise, I don't think you'll ever find peace. 223 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,877 If the Law Commission have decided double jeopardy's not a priority, 224 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,877 then you need to do whatever it takes 225 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,960 to make them sit up and take notice. 226 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,480 OK? OK. 227 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,160 And don't stop till the fight is done. 228 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,877 With me on the show today is the mother of Julie Hogg, 229 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,877 a young woman murdered in 1989 by a man who has escaped justice 230 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,877 because of a centuries-old law known as double jeopardy. 231 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,877 Ann Ming, welcome to News Hour. Thanks, Penny. It's good to be here. 232 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,877 I should start by talking about double jeopardy, 233 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,877 which some people claim is there to prevent endless trials 234 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,077 of the same person. 235 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,877 'Now, I can understand why it was created more than 800 years ago, 236 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,557 'but today, it's not fit for purpose.' 237 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,717 It shouldn't apply to someone 238 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,877 who's openly boasted about committing a murder, 239 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,877 and that's exactly what my daughter's killer did. 240 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:03,717 He bragged about pulling off the perfect crime. 241 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,877 Now, if that's not a reason to change the law, 242 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,000 then I don't know what is. 243 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,877 You've embarked on quite a campaign, haven't you? 244 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,877 'Yes. Yes, I have, Penny. 245 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,877 'I'm doing newspapers and radio, a TV documentary, 246 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,160 'I'm talking to politicians, you name it.' 247 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,877 If you could follow me, Mrs Ming. 248 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,237 It must be painful, though. 249 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,877 'It is. But my daughter has been denied justice, 250 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,960 'and I won't stop until it's been rectified.' 251 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,877 I hear you're also going to be on national television 252 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,557 to debate Imran Khan, the lawyer for Stephen Lawrence's family? 253 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:41,877 'Yes, that's right. 254 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,877 'For some reason, he believes the law should stay as it is. 255 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,877 'So I'll have to change his mind, won't I?' 256 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,397 CREW MEMBER: 15 seconds. Stand by, please. 257 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,237 With all its power and resources, 258 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,557 the state shouldn't be permitted to make repeated, 259 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:55,877 theoretically unlimited attempts 260 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,237 to convict a man when he doesn't have the analogous resources 261 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,960 to find the evidence that clears him. 262 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,480 REPORTER: Would you agree, Mrs Ming? 263 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:07,877 Look, well, I don't know all these fancy words. 264 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,917 I just know that the law's unfair, and it needs to be changed. 265 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,877 Look, the real problem here's ineffectual police investigations. 266 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,877 Now, without double jeopardy, you'd just get sloppy police work 267 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,877 because they'd know they could just try again 268 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,557 if things didn't go their way. 269 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,877 But surely, there'd be safeguards for... to prevent that... 270 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,397 And where would that leave us? 271 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,877 With an individual living in a state of constant anxiety and insecurity, 272 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,877 subjected to embarrassment, expense and ordeal 273 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,960 and the police disincentivised to be rigorous or proficient. 274 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,000 Mrs Ming? 275 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:43,960 Er, you have a daughter, I believe, Mr Khan? 276 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,557 Yes, I do. 277 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,877 Well, if your daughter had been murdered 278 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,877 and a man had confessed to killing her in a court of law, 279 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,877 would you be happy with a perjury sentence? 280 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,877 Well, legally speaking... 281 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,200 No, I'm not talking as a lawyer, I'm talking as a father. 282 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,800 Well, I wouldn't say... Would you be happy with a perjury sentence? 283 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,877 Of course I wouldn't. 284 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:13,917 You wouldn't. Well, that says it all. 285 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,397 You can stop the cameras now because that says it all. 286 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,877 He wouldn't be happy with a perjury sentence, and we're not. 287 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,237 And we'll go to the European Court of Human Rights if we have to 288 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:22,960 for justice for our daughter. 289 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:25,877 BREATHES HEAVILY 290 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,877 Mr Khan, Mrs Ming. Thank you very much for your time. 291 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,557 Yes, that's correct. How can I help you? 292 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:32,877 WOMAN: 'Is Mrs Ming there?' 293 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,877 No, I'm sorry, she's not here right now. 294 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:35,878 Can I give her a message? 295 00:17:35,961 --> 00:17:37,877 'Oh, I'm calling from the Law Commission.' 296 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:39,077 Oh. 'Mr Wilkie would like to meet her.' 297 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:40,877 I see. 298 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,877 Right, I'll be sure to pass that on to her. 299 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,960 'Thank you very much.' Ta-ra. 300 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,877 That was them. Who? 301 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,397 The Law Commission. 302 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,960 Alan Wilkie saw the debate on the telly. 303 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,000 Says he wants to meet you. 304 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:04,877 SHE CHUCKLES 305 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,877 I'm sorry for the delay 306 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,877 in responding to your thorough and very moving letter. 307 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,320 So you did read it, then? Yes. 308 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,960 Let's just say you've made yourself hard to ignore. 309 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,877 We know there are several other families around the country 310 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:24,877 in your situation, and we were hoping... 311 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,877 35. I beg your pardon? 312 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,877 Other cases, that is. I've met most of them. 313 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,960 They are just as desperate for the law to be changed as us. 314 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,877 I'll get to the point, Ann. 315 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,077 Erm... We agree wholeheartedly 316 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,877 that a review should be a priority. 317 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,237 Good. 318 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,397 But it needs to be retrospective. 319 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,960 Otherwise, it's of no bloody use to us. 320 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,877 We'll do what we can. 321 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,877 He's out in a few years, you see... the man who murdered our Julie. 322 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,877 So I hope you mean that. 323 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,877 It's understandable that you're keen to get things moving, 324 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,877 especially in the light of his appeal. 325 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,717 He's appealing? 326 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,960 Yes. Against his perjury sentence? 327 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,397 I'm sorry, I assumed you'd have heard. 328 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:16,877 Well, then... 329 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,717 then that's even more reason to get your skates on, isn't it? 330 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,800 No time for messing around! 331 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:24,878 About this appeal, Ann, 332 00:19:24,961 --> 00:19:28,877 you might consider writing to the justices. 333 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,877 We're seeing some compelling evidence 334 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,877 that something called a victim impact statement 335 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,960 can influence the court. 336 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,877 I wrote one of those for his perjury case. 337 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,557 Didn't make a blind bit of difference. 338 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,877 You wrote an impact statement for the perjury sentencing? 339 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,877 Took years off my life, it did. Why? 340 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,877 No, I've read that file from cover to cover. 341 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,917 I'm sorry to say that there was no such statement in there. 342 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,877 What? But I... I handed it in at the CPS personally. 343 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,877 I can only imagine it's some sort of bureaucratic oversight. 344 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:02,877 Oh, for God's sake. No wonder he only got six years! 345 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,877 I was told it would play a big role in the judge's sentencing. 346 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,557 That's certainly how it's supposed to work. 347 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,077 God, it's like we don't bloody matter! 348 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,877 You must have a very low opinion of the legal establishment. 349 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,877 Honestly, Alan, it's been like this from the start. 350 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:18,878 The police not listening to me, 351 00:20:18,961 --> 00:20:20,877 Julie's reputation dragged through the mud, 352 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,960 and now no-one's bothered to even read my statement. 353 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,877 I realise you probably won't want to write another impact statement. 354 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,960 But if you do, I will make sure that the justices read it. 355 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,960 You have my word on that. 356 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,480 You're writing another one? Yeah. 357 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,960 He's appealing his perjury sentence. Oh, for... 358 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,960 Yeah, you haven't forgotten we're out for Gary's birthday tonight? 359 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,717 No, course not. 360 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,077 A CPS courier's picking it up from the house at 4:30. 361 00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,960 I'll have plenty of time. 362 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,877 All right. I'll do you a coffee. 363 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:04,960 Yeah. Thanks, love. 364 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,077 TV PLAYS 365 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,960 What time's the taxi coming? 15 minutes. 366 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,960 You look very nice. Thank you. 367 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,877 They said they'd call to confirm they received it. 368 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:24,878 Hm? 369 00:21:24,961 --> 00:21:26,877 I'm gonna have to call them, Charlie. 370 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,960 KEYPAD TONES 371 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,877 MAN: 'Royal Courts of Justice.' Hello. Yeah, erm, it's Ann Ming. 372 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,877 Case number 201208. 373 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,800 I'm calling to check that you received my impact statement. 374 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,877 'No, we haven't received anything for that case, I'm afraid.' 375 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,877 What? No, are you sure? 376 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,877 It should've been faxed over in the last hour or so. 377 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,557 'No, I can't see anything here.' Unbelievable. All right. 378 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:54,877 'I'll get them to send it again.' 379 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,877 Yeah, well, thanks. 'Thank you.' 380 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,397 They haven't bloody sent it. Who? 381 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,717 The CPS! How hard is it to send a fax? 382 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,877 Where you going? You go ahead. 383 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:05,878 I'll just get there when I can. 384 00:22:05,961 --> 00:22:08,877 Surely, you don't have to drive round there? Can't you just...? 385 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,877 Yes, I do! Look, I don't trust them to do anything after the last time. 386 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,877 Ann. Ann! 387 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,160 Just, er, tell Gary not to open his presents without me. 388 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,960 DOOR CLOSES 389 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:24,878 Is it finished? Sorry? 390 00:22:24,961 --> 00:22:26,877 The meeting? Excuse me, miss, you can't go in there! 391 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,877 Oh, can't I? He's in the middle of a... 392 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,877 I'm sorry, sir. We've met before. 393 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:31,878 Excuse me. Do you remember? 394 00:22:31,961 --> 00:22:33,877 A year or so ago. Mrs Ming... 395 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,877 I was promised that the judge at the perjury sentencing 396 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:36,878 would get my victim statement. 397 00:22:36,961 --> 00:22:38,877 He never received it. As you can see... 398 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,877 And now the man who killed my daughter 399 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,877 is appealing against his poxy six-year sentence. 400 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,877 So do you know what I did? I wrote another one. 401 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,397 I went through the torture of reliving our Julie's murder, 402 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,557 and I wrote another very detailed statement. 403 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,917 A statement I was promised would be in London before six o'clock today. 404 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,877 And guess what? You lot have bloody well let me down again! 405 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:56,878 Mrs Ming! No! 406 00:22:56,961 --> 00:23:00,877 I will call Frank Cook, Alan Wilkie, Jack bleedin' Straw if I have to! 407 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,877 I am not leaving this room 408 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,000 until you call the clerk of court in London and fax him my document! 409 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,160 I think I'd listen to Mrs Ming if I were you. 410 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,960 KEYPAD TONES Thank you. 411 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:41,960 Where is everyone? 412 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,960 They left already? They waited as long as they could. 413 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:51,960 They've got their own lives, Ann. 414 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,960 I thought I'd make it. 415 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,877 I didn't know what to order, so... 416 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,160 No, this is fine, thanks. Yeah. 417 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,960 If it's cold, I can ask them that... It's fine, thanks. 418 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,040 I wish I could be in two places at once. 419 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,960 But you can't, Ann. 420 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,160 It's not for nothing, Charlie. 421 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,960 I hope you're right. 422 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,877 Now, remember, it really isn't the end of the world 423 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,877 if this appeal is successful and his sentence is reduced. 424 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,877 Anything that puts that man back on the streets 425 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,877 is catastrophic in my book. 426 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,877 Well, let's keep everything crossed. 427 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,877 Having considered the evidence, 428 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,237 and especially in light of the, er... 429 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,877 thorough and affecting victim impact statement 430 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,877 supplied by Mrs Ming, we are unanimous in our judgement 431 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,877 that a sentence of six years was not manifestly excessive, 432 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,397 and we do not seek to interfere with the judge's ruling. 433 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,877 And consequently, we dismiss the appeal against the sentence. 434 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,877 EXHALES 435 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:36,960 Thank goodness for that. 436 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,877 So, what happens next, about double jeopardy? 437 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,877 Well, that's a small matter 438 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,077 of unpicking 800 years of legal history. 439 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,877 But, you know, it's in the hands of the Home Secretary 440 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,877 and the Lord Chancellor now. 441 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,877 They have our report, and they'll give it their consideration. 442 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,960 How long will that take? Shouldn't be too long. 443 00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:59,960 Right. 444 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,877 Thanks for coming with me. I wouldn't miss it for anything. 445 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,877 I know it's not easy for you. 446 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,960 You know, it will be quite something if they overturn the law. 447 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,717 Well, unless it's retrospective, it's all been for nothing. 448 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:21,877 No. 449 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,320 Whatever happens, you've done her proud. 450 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,960 Government white paper, and all because of you. 451 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:33,960 We best get going. Aye. 452 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,877 Right, you look after Angela for us, won't you? 453 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,877 Mwah. Got everything. 454 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,237 I wanna come too. 455 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,877 Oh, no, darling, I don't think that's a good idea. 456 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,960 Why not? Why shouldn't I be there? 457 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,960 I wanna be there to support you. 458 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,960 And for my mam. 459 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,877 I'm just... I'm getting nervous now. Ah, don't be nervous. 460 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,237 Does my hair look all right in this wind? 461 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,877 Your hair looks great. You look very nice. 462 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,877 It's blowing everywhere. You look very nice. 463 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,877 REPORTERS CLAMOUR 464 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:13,960 No. 465 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,480 Thank you. 466 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,877 Hello. 467 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,557 Hello. My name's Ann Ming. I'm here... 468 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,960 This is for you, Mrs Ming. Oh, thank you. 469 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:28,917 GASPS 470 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,877 Oh, God, it's retrospective! 471 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,877 The double jeopardy law's being overturned, 472 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,877 and it's gonna be retrospective. 473 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:36,878 Oh, I can't believe it. 474 00:27:36,961 --> 00:27:38,877 REPORTER: It's a monumental moment for you, Ann. 475 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,877 It is, yeah. I'm shaking. God! 476 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,877 I just can't believe it. ANN LAUGHS 477 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,960 REPORTERS CHATTER 478 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,877 Well, I suppose the lesson is... 479 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,877 being a bloody-minded pain in the arse can pay off sometimes. 480 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,237 MARK LAUGHS Yes. 481 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,960 Here's to you. Frank! Hiya. Aw. 482 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,877 Sorry I couldn't be there. 483 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,717 But you probably heard me cheering from the other end of the A1. 484 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,917 Do you know Mark Braithwaite? He's another one of the good guys. 485 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,877 Nice to meet you, Mark. Likewise. Take a seat. 486 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,877 Without fellas like you, we'd never have achieved what we have. 487 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,960 Well, we're not quite there yet. 488 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:17,877 Which is not to say we shouldn't celebrate. 489 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,717 You've got to recognise your victories 490 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:21,877 along the way, haven't you? 491 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,877 Well, I... I mean, I know it needs to be debated, but I... 492 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,877 From what I understand, after a bit of back and forth, 493 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,877 it is likely to get the votes, isn't it? 494 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,877 In the Commons, yes. 495 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,877 But remember, the Lords is a different matter. 496 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,877 There you go. Thanks. 497 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,877 They're a bunch of old conservative white men in the main. 498 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,557 They're not generally keen on dismantling ancient English laws. 499 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,960 Well, do you think they'll block it? 500 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:48,917 I won't lie. 501 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,960 I think it'll be tough to get through. 502 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,717 Well, who do I talk to? About what? 503 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaking to the Lords. Would they allow it? 504 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:01,397 It's very unconventional. 505 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,877 But it is allowed? You'd really do that? 506 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,877 Make a speech to the Lords? 507 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,717 Can you help me or not? 508 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,557 HE SCOFFS 509 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,877 I know Lord Falconer a little. Let me speak to him. 510 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:14,917 Thanks. 511 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,877 Don't screw it up. I'll try not to. 512 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,960 Good luck with that. FRANK CHUCKLES 513 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,960 Safe and sober or bold and red? Hmm. 514 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,960 I'd play it safe if I were you. 515 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,877 Are you sure you don't wanna come with me? 516 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:38,960 I'd love to. 517 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,960 I just... 518 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,877 Right. 519 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,877 Now some shoes. 520 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,320 You'll look great whatever you wear. 521 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:00,960 MAN: Good morning. 522 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,877 This must all seem rather grand to you, but don't worry. 523 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,877 The committee room isn't quite as medieval. 524 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:13,878 MAN: Morning. Morning. 525 00:30:13,961 --> 00:30:17,557 MAN: Morning. Morning? It's 2:30 in the afternoon. 526 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,877 Well, it's always morning here until the House sits. 527 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,877 One of our little conventions. BELL RINGS 528 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,237 Now, when we vote, we queue in two lines, 529 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,877 either the content or the not-content corridor, 530 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,237 and we are counted off by a peer holding a drumstick. 531 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:34,960 Musical or chicken? 532 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,877 HE CHUCKLES Right, here we are. 533 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,877 You ready? Er... yeah. 534 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,877 You do have a speech, don't you? 535 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,877 I've made some notes, but I don't think I'll need them. 536 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,877 Mrs Ming, these are some of the most powerful 537 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,877 and respected people in the country. 538 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,960 I have seen seasoned speakers go completely dry. 539 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,877 Look, I may not be hoity-toity like you lot, 540 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,960 but I know what I wanna say. 541 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,160 I've had 13 years to think about it. 542 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,160 All right. All right. 543 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,877 My most noble and learned Lords, 544 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,877 may I introduce my guest today... 545 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,877 Mrs Ann Ming, who'll be talking to us 546 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,877 with regards to the Criminal Justice Bill, 547 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,877 specifically part 10, 548 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,877 which concerns the so-called double jeopardy rule. 549 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,960 LORDS CHATTER 550 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,877 Thank you. 551 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,960 ANN CLEARS THROAT 552 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,877 My Lords and Ladies, erm... 553 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,237 thank you most humbly for, erm, letting me speak today. 554 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,960 I'll try not to take up too much of your time. 555 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,557 On November 16th, 1989, 556 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,960 our eldest daughter, Julie, went missing. 557 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,397 The police, when I spoke to them... 558 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,877 We hadn't seen her, you see, since the previous day, 559 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,877 and she was due in court in Stockton the next morning... 560 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:10,960 Speak up. 561 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,917 SHE CLEARS THROAT 562 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,877 Anyway, I had a gut... 563 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,877 a gut feeling that something dreadful had happened to her. 564 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,960 The police spent a week searching her home, and they found nothing. 565 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,960 Look, I'm gonna tell you how it feels to lose a child. 566 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,000 And how it feels to be shafted by the law. 567 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,960 There have been two moments of deep trauma in my life. 568 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,960 One was the moment I found my daughter's body under the bath. 569 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:02,640 13 years later, I still have nightmares. 570 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:05,877 The second was the moment 571 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,960 I had to watch my daughter's murderer walk free. 572 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,640 Nobody here will ever, ever know how that feels. 573 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,960 Trusting the state to bring you justice and peace... 574 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,397 ...only to find yourself marginalised and betrayed. 575 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,877 For you, the law is just something you make for others 576 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,877 in this ivory tower with your inherited privileges. 577 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,877 But for me, it's a cancer. 578 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,917 For the last 13 years, I have fought to get justice for Julie. 579 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,877 I've had to deal with rank police incompetence, 580 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,877 two mistrials, two home secretaries 581 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,877 and a CPS who didn't even seem to care about us victims. 582 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:50,000 On top of all that... 583 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,877 ...I had to figure out a way 584 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,960 of telling my grandson what happened to his mammy... 585 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,877 ...and how to keep my marriage together 586 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,877 when me and my husband, Charlie, were drowning in grief. 587 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:04,960 EXHALES 588 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,877 No, look, I don't want your sympathy, I just... 589 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:09,878 I just need you to listen. 590 00:34:09,961 --> 00:34:12,877 If someone is sent to prison for a crime 591 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,877 and new evidence proves that they were innocent all along, 592 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,877 well, it's only right that they should walk free. 593 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,877 Well, surely, it should work the other way round, too. 594 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,877 If someone is acquitted 595 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,877 and new evidence proves that they were guilty all along, 596 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,960 well, then they should take the rap for it. 597 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,877 Look, I'm not... 598 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,960 I'm not interested in revenge or even compensation. 599 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,877 I just want the man who took our little girl from us 600 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,000 to pay for his crime. 601 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,960 Our daughter's right to life was stolen from her. 602 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,877 The only way we can get justice 603 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,960 is by changing the double jeopardy law retrospectively. 604 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,960 LORDS: Hear, hear. 605 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,960 Thank you. 606 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,960 Fancy seeing you here. 607 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,557 I'm here all the time. 608 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,877 You are? I didn't know that. 609 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,960 There's a lot you don't know, Mam. 610 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,877 I don't think I've got the energy to keep on fighting, you know. 611 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,237 If the Lords block it... 612 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,000 SHE EXHALES DEEPLY 613 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,877 Do you ever see her? Who? 614 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,000 Our Julie. 615 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,160 I miss her so much. SHE SIGHS 616 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,877 I don't care... who she was with, 617 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,077 what she went through in her private life. 618 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,877 I just... 619 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,960 I just wish I could tell her that I love her. 620 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,960 Mam. What? 621 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,960 I miss her too. 622 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,960 But I think you need to move on, Mam. 623 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,960 I think you need to let her go. 624 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,960 What do you mean? 625 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,960 I'm saying, Mam, that you've got two living children. 626 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,960 Gary, love... Bye, Mam. 627 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,237 DOOR CLOSES 628 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,877 Where have you been? Huh? 629 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,077 We've been waiting for hours! Who's been waiting? 630 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,237 Well, come and see. What? 631 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:03,960 Through here, love. 632 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,877 SHE CHUCKLES Frank. 633 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,877 It's my birthday today. 634 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,877 And it's the best one I've ever had. BOTTLE POPS 635 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:13,960 Congratulations. 636 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,960 The bill's gone through, love. It's got through the Lords. 637 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,960 And it's retrospective. 638 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,877 What? It is true, Ann. 639 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,877 SHE MUMBLES Really? 640 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,397 We've done it. 641 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,877 You've done it. 642 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:33,917 SHE SOBS 643 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,960 Really, has it happened? Oh, God. 644 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,877 Oh, my God, I can't believe it. It's over. 645 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,877 Oh, no, really? Yeah. 646 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,397 SHE SOBS 647 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,877 TEARFULLY: Charlie, we did it. No, you did it. You did. 648 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,557 We did. 649 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,877 Oh, God, it's all over. 650 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:55,877 We've won. 651 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,877 SHE SOBS We did it. 652 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,960 You did it, it was all you. 653 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,917 My government will continue to make the reduction of crime 654 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,877 and the fear of crime a priority. 655 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,877 The government will be implementing the Criminal Justice Act 656 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:15,877 to ensure the effective punishment 657 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,877 of dangerous and persistent offenders. 658 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,397 REPORTER: It took the High Court only a matter of minutes 659 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,877 to quash the original acquittal of October 1991, 660 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,877 opening the door to today's historic retrial 661 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,877 in the case of Julie Hogg's murder. REPORTERS CLAMOUR 662 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,877 Mrs Ming, do you think they'll let him off the hook? 663 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,877 What do you mean, "let him off the hook"? 664 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,877 Well, the judge might decide he's spent long enough in prison. 665 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:39,878 He's done nearly ten years. 666 00:38:39,961 --> 00:38:42,960 What does she mean by that? Let's get you inside. 667 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:45,877 In deciding your sentence, 668 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,877 I have borne in mind your guilty plea, 669 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,397 which has saved Julie Hogg's family and friends 670 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,917 from enduring a further trial. 671 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,397 Before I come to sentence you, I should like to read an extract 672 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,877 from Mrs Ming's impact statement, 673 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,877 a harrowing and moving account 674 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:07,960 of the harm you have done to the family. 675 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,877 "As a family, we are damaged beyond repair" 676 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,960 "and will never be the same again as Julie will never return home." 677 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,717 "The love we feel for Julie 678 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,717 "means it is we who are serving the life sentence. 679 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,877 "Julie's son, Kevin, has missed out on a mother's love." 680 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,237 "He has missed out on a childhood." 681 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,960 "All he has left of her are a few photographs." 682 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,960 Notwithstanding your guilty plea... 683 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,877 ...I have seen no evidence of genuine contrition on your part 684 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,960 as opposed to evident self-pity... 685 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,557 ...and attempts by you to avoid or minimise 686 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,960 the proper consequences of what you have done. 687 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,877 Those consequences are that on the count of murder, 688 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,877 you will be imprisoned for life 689 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,877 with a minimum tariff of 17 years. 690 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:19,960 Mm. 691 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,960 Take him down. 692 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,877 REPORTER: Ann! Ann! 693 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,877 I... I just can't believe what's happened today. 694 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,877 I can't believe that we've finally got justice for our daughter. 695 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,878 I'd, erm... 696 00:40:51,961 --> 00:40:54,877 Mrs Ming, this is the first person in Britain to be convicted 697 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,557 of a crime for which they'd previously been acquitted. 698 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,877 It's historic, isn't it? 699 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:01,960 Yeah, I suppose. Suppose it is, really, yeah. 700 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,877 Sorry, it's not often that I'm speechless. 701 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,877 Your campaign, it has taken up so much of your life. 702 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,960 What will you do now? 703 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,960 Erm, more line dancing, probably. 704 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,877 Ann, I don't think you realise quite what you've achieved. 705 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,877 Don't be daft. 706 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,877 To overturn one of the most established legal principles 707 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,717 in Western democracy. 708 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,877 People talk about speaking truth to power. 709 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,877 Well, you've made history today. 710 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,877 I just hope he never gets out. 711 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,877 You've ignited a debate around the world. 712 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,237 Every country with double jeopardy laws 713 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,640 has been watching us very closely indeed. 714 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,877 Here, Mark's got us another round to celebrate. You deserve that. 715 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,717 It's the least we deserve. 716 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,877 To Ann! MEN: To Ann. 717 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:56,960 Cheers. 718 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,960 COUNTRY POP MUSIC PLAYS 719 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,877 Do people do this sober? 720 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,960 Nothing to be worried about. 721 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,877 I'm getting a drink. A large one. What do you want? 722 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,960 Whatever they've got. 723 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,077 ♪ This used to be my heart 724 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,397 ♪ I was torn apart 725 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,557 ♪ And I'm fading 726 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,877 ♪ Deeper in my soul 727 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,877 ♪ Blackening, so cold 728 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,320 ♪ I'm fading away. ♪ 729 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,800 LAUGHS TEARFULLY 730 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,960 Queue was too long. I'll go back in a few minutes. 731 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,877 What's wrong? Is everything OK? 732 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,077 MAN: 'All right, everyone, are we all ready? Grab your favourite...' 733 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,877 You all right? '..pair of cowboy boots, it's time.' 734 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,917 Yeah. I'm OK. 'A-five, six...' 735 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,077 I'm OK. 736 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:55,877 'A-five, six, seven, eight.' You sure? 737 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,877 COUNTRY POP MUSIC PLAYS 738 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,877 I love you. Gosh, that's nice. 739 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:01,878 Oh, it's starting. 740 00:44:01,961 --> 00:44:03,877 Bloody hell, is that it? Let's have a go. 741 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,877 ♪ Out on the road for sunrise 742 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,877 ♪ Another town left behind 743 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,397 ♪ Opened up the throttle On this old big rig 744 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,877 ♪ And tried to make up A little time 745 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,877 ♪ If I can drop this load off early 746 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,557 ♪ I'll pick another one up tonight 747 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,877 ♪ Make it to the woods And keep the end of the road 748 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,877 ♪ Only just out of sight 749 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,877 ♪ I'ma clicking those miles... ♪ 750 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,877 Oh, you came! I can't believe that you came. 751 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,877 All right, Dad? Hi, Dad. 752 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,877 Hiya, Mam, all right? 753 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,877 I think I need my head checking. Come on, it'll be fun. 754 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,960 Come on. 755 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,877 You know the moves, Mam! 756 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,877 ♪ Everything's all right 757 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,877 ♪ And I always keep The end of the road 758 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:52,878 ♪ Just out of sight 759 00:44:52,961 --> 00:44:55,917 ♪ I'ma clicking those miles 760 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,877 ♪ There ain't no reason To count... ♪ 761 00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,960 MUSIC FADES 762 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,960 APPLAUSE 763 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,960 Subtitles by accessibility@itv.com58113

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