All language subtitles for Mind Meld Secrets Behind The Voyage Of A Lifetime

passionate actors, closest
of friends.

Born just four days apart,

they share more than just
being of the same generation,

but a legacy that helped
to define many generations.

Now they can finally look back

with the only other person
on the planet

who can truly identify
with their amazing journey

to boldly go where neither
man has gone before,

and along the way reveal
the secrets

behind the voyage of a lifetime.

- This is a beautiful setting,

- Thank you.

- reflecting the beauty that
is in you and your wife,

mostly your wife.
- Do you know...

- Give a little, take
a little.

Give a compliment, take
it away.

- Never be totally
generous.

- Did you know that
I used to drive

a taxi in this neighborhood?

- No.
- I did.

- Come on.
- I did.

- We are in one of the
better sections,

and perhaps the best section,

but who's counting,
of Los Angeles,

and you drove a cab
up here ferrying

the movie stars to their homes?

- 1956.

- There were no movie
stars over here.

- 10 years before you and I met.

- Was all oil money.

- And I was just outta the Army.

And while I was in the
army, I got married,

and my daughter, Julie was born

in Atlanta, Georgia at
the Army post hospital.

And my wife was expecting
our second baby.

I came outta the army
with no money,

and very little in the way
of any career expectations.

And I had to pay the rent.

So the first thing I did was
take a job driving a taxi.

Nights.

- That's wild, did you
make any money?

- I went a long time
before I could

actually make a living
as an actor.

I mean, from the time I
decided to be an actor

when I was about 17

to the time that we met
and started to do Star Trek

when I was about 35,

about 18 years there,

about 15 years of it
actually here in Los Angeles

looking for work as an actor.

I never had a job that
lasted any longer

than two weeks as an actor.

- So what would you have
made in those two weeks,

or what did those 15 years
average out as an actor?

- Oh, very little, very little.

The money was very small.

But living expenses were
not that high either.

And I always worked
at something else.

I would always take
some kind of a job

working at a market,
or driving a taxi,

or delivering newspapers, or
working at a pet shop, or...

- So, give me an idea

of how much money you
made in a year.

- As an actor?
- Yeah.

- Couple thousand dollars.

Four... Five... 4,000...
5,000... was...

- A big
year was the...

- Six... 10 was my goal.

I thought if I make 10,
I could support a family.

- And in those years, 10,000
would've supported a family.

- Would
support a family.

Tell me about your early years.
We never talked about that.

- Well, I had exactly the
opposite experience, I started...

- To make great fortunes
instantly.

- Piddling amounts constantly.

- So, how come?

- But I always made money at...

- How come you had an easier
time of it than I did then?

- I don't know.

It's an interesting
question. What?

The flip answer is obvious,

but rather than go
there, it is...

- Are you better looking
than I am?

- No.

- Are you more talented than me?

- No, see, I brought
my glasses to show you

that I don't really need
them.

It is in fact luck.

- I had a number of years

of what's known as building
character.

- It is.
- Character building years.

- Do you think that
made you bitter at all?

- No, no, no.

I, no, On the contrary,
I very grateful.

I was bitter at then. Yes.

I was very unhappy. Very angry.

- Angry. Now who are
you angry at?

- It was a very general
kind of anger.

That in those years,
the studios had,

as I'm sure you recall, a
certain kind of structure

for actors, contract actors.

They would put under
the contract,

and use them and
move them along,

hopefully from smaller
roles to bigger

and bigger and bigger roles.

And then maybe to stardom.

My problem was that the
people that they were hiring,

were blonde charming
looking guys, blue eyed,

handsome, young guys like you.

So I became angry at you.

- That's the answer.

- That's
where it began.

I had great confidence

and I didn't wanna be
dealt with lightly.

I didn't wanna be dismissed
lightly.

I wanted to be taken seriously.

That was a major thrust for
me to be taken seriously.

- So...

- And to retain as much
dignity as possible...

- Okay.

- And Under tough circumstances.

- Okay, now.

That's so interesting,
that statement right there.

- Yeah.
- Okay.

Because the Leonard I know
is that man filled with...

- Anger?
- No.

- No.

- Art.
- Yeah.

- The love of art. The
love of people.

The love of... The love of life,

the love of food, the love of...

Look at your beautiful
home. It reflects you.

They now say, got this
wonderful part,

I'm gonna put ears on you.

And we may snip off the ears,

the old story of maybe
we snip them off.

Maybe we don't snip them off,

and you're gonna do a mind meld,

and you're gonna hold up
your hand and make a "U".

I know.

Yeah. See, I can't do that.

That was your Judaic idea.

I... the wonderful creation
you made, as Mr. Spock,

does not carry with
it the elements

of dignity and taken seriously
that you're talking about.

You would rather have
been Hamlet.

- Well, let's back
up for a moment.

My hope and dream was to
make a living as an actor

and to play character roles.

And what really attracted me

and made the the Spock
character valid for me,

made it worthwhile pursuing,

was the idea that this character

had a very interesting
internal life.

Internal life based on
a genetic conflict.

A human mother and
a Vulcan father.

That conflict, that
internal conflict,

gave me a sense that
there was something

constantly brewing
in his character.

Some of these characters,

this character was
constantly working on himself

in some way,

was constantly conscious
of his internal struggle

and therefore was alive.

I think we all have
these internal struggles.

I think young people
go through periods

where they're trying to
figure out how to balance

the right brain versus the left.

How to balance their logic

and the things that
must get done

and that are real versus
their emotions,

which may or may not
be based on reality.

- I understand all that.

- So it gave me a life.

- You're bringing, you
brought your art.

- Right.

- To this part.

- Well, that's a nice
way of putting it.

- Well, no, it's true.

- I agree.
- It's absolutely true.

- And a certain amount of craft.

- No, all...
Not a certain amount.

You brought a great deal of
craft and a great deal of art.

To the part of Mr. Spock.

But you still can't
get past the fact

that what we all were
performing in,

was, you know, a series.

It was cartoonish.

- Now we get to that.

Now, you're absolutely
right. So, the concern was...

- So, when they say,
Spock, Mr. Spock,

is not, hey, loved
your Hamlet. Okay?

- No.

- So it doesn't fit

with the picture you
wanted to paint.

- No. So there was a
constant struggle

to keep the focus on
the dignity of the work

and there was a constant
concern that the work be seen...

Should not be seen as
frivolous and silly.

That's exactly right.

- So that's,
when did you...

- So, how do you deal
with people, say,

hey, where's your pointed ears?

- Right. That would
like destroy it.

- Painful.

- Painful.
- Yeah.

- You've touched on something
I had forgotten about.

Does that struggle to keep
the show, the characters,

our work focused in an area
that could be taken seriously

and not be seen silly
and frivolous.

And you remind me of the
quintessential demonstration

of that struggle.

We were doing a press
conference,

maybe a month before the
airing of the first show.

The press had never
seen our show.

And each of us were assigned
a group of reporters

and we moved from one to the
other to answer questions.

And they were putting
questions to me like,

what's the show about?

And what's the character
you play,

and you play a character
with pointed ears

and he's from another
planet and, yeah,

but you gotta understand,
we're doing...

We're doing really interesting
stories.

We're doing stories about
overpopulation.

We're doing stories about
racial issues.

We're doing stories
about the ecology,

we're doing stories about
loyalty and brotherhood

and helping each other
and that sort of thing.

But you'd play a character
with point of view, yes,

but this is a very interesting
character,

very intelligent,
a great dignity,

great sense of himself
as a person

and a functional person
of a scientist,

bright man, you know,
and so forth.

Okay. So the next day you and
I are playing a scene on stage

that's being filmed.

And this group of reporters
are brought in

to watch us film the scene.

And the scene has me lying
on the bed at sick bay,

and I'm laying that prostrate,

green blood dripping
from my forehead.

You come rushing in and
say what happened, Spock?

And I say, captain, the
monster attacked me.

I thought in a moment all
that conversation is gone.

- I got another moment to
remind you of, apropos of that.

My father died while we
were in the first year.

And I leaned on you literally
and figuratively for support

during those hours
between filming,

hearing my father died at lunch.

He died in Miami. I had to
fly to Miami that evening.

And I made the conscious
decision

to continue working
that afternoon

because there was nothing
else for me to do.

But then I couldn't
remember my lines.

So, we fumbled our way
through an afternoon's work,

which was probably discarded
on Monday.

In any case, I was
gone the weekend.

And when I came back

in shock from grief of
my beloved father,

we started to pick...

We picked up on a scene
and this was a segment

that had the Horta, I've
forgotten the name of the show.

- The name of the show
was Devil in the Dark.

- Devil In the Dark. And we
had our hands on the Horta.

- Right.
- And the Horta was sending...

- Dangerous Dangerous creature.

- Dangerous creature. And the
creature was sending out...

You were doing a mind meld
- Yes.

- With the Horta.
- Yes.

- And we had shot all your
stuff while I was gone.

I guess it was a Tuesday.

And I was... And on Monday
you had shot all your shots.

And now we were reversing
on me on Tuesday.

So they didn't miss a
beat on the schedule.

And you off screen were
playing full out

to give me, your friend,
some of the feeling

you had had when you
were performing.

- For you
to react to it.

- For me to react.

You were feeling the Horta

and you realized the
Horta was in pain

and out of the depths
of your soul,

you said, pain! Pain!

And I, in my shock, wanting
to show everybody, it's okay,

I'm alright, we'll be okay.

I said, Get that man an aspirin.

- Everybody laughed but you.

Until now. You didn't
speak to me for weeks.

(Leonard Nimoy continues
laughing uproariously)

- I remember it very well.

- And I didn't realize
what I had tapped into,

I was coming off of
something else.

You were coming to this
part with that...

- Making a commitment.

- Making a commitment,

not only for that moment,
but in general.

To hell with the ears.

I'm bringing dignity and
craft and art to this part.

And now I'm being discounted

by bring this man an aspirin.

By this actor.

- Who never drove a...
Never drove a cab,

he never flushed...

- He never worked in a
pet shop.

- How dare he! I never
realized...

- You want me... You
want an aspirin?

- Yeah, right.
You think I need an aspirin?

Oh, that's... You need
a knuckle sandwich.

We went on, but until
this moment,

I never fully comprehended
the... how I tread...

- What you
stepped into.

- What I trod on. And
then you were in the army.

Not in the Marines, But
don't tread on me,

I guess was your motto.

- That's funny.

What do you remember
about the very first time?

Well, how did you get the job?

Did, did they call you and say,

said like you to play this role.

- That's exactly what
happened, Leonard.

They had made, as you well know,

cause you were in it,
a pilot for NBC.

And it didn't sell.

And Jeffrey Hunter
was in the pilot.

NBC wanted Gene
Roddenberry to do a rewrite

or do another script.

He fired everybody, with
the exception of yourself.

And as you know, what you did
on that pilot, first pilot,

you completely reworked
on the second show.

So, they offered me the job.

I looked at the pilot, I
saw an interesting show,

and I saw the reason
why it didn't sell.

Everybody was taking
themselves so importantly.

- Seriously.
- So seriously, one.

And two is there was no humor.

I guess they're related,
but it was ponderous

in that it went along
along along

because everybody was
being out in space.

And a corollary of that
was there was no humor.

So when I talked about that,

that was the two
things that I...

- I don't know if you've
ever heard me

talk about the difference

between my playing against
Jeffrey Hunter

and playing against you.

- I've never heard...
- Well...

you might find this interesting.

I've always said that
one of the reasons

for the shift in the Spock
character when you came on board

was because when I was
working with Jeffrey Hunter,

Jeffrey Hunter was a
very internalized actor.

Very fine actor, very
intelligent man.

This was his style of work.

He was very internalized,
very thoughtful.

There's an old joke
about two actors

preparing to play a scene
and one says to the other,

What are you gonna play
in this scene?

And the one says, I'm
playing nothing.

The other one says, No, no, no,

you can't play nothing,
I'm playing nothing.

So, here's Jeffrey Hunter
playing this quiet,

internalized performance.

And I felt the need to
help drive something

in opposition to that.
- Right.

- Otherwise, we're both
playing nothing.

- Right. Right. Right.

- And when you came
on board with your energy

and a sense of humor and
a twinkle in the eye,

I was able to then become
the core Spock.

- You smiled in the first one.

And never smiled again.

- No, never again, that's right.

- And that is a tectonic shift.

- Yes.

- And that required either
you worked from instinct

the moment and you realized
several days later,

Hey, I didn't smile.

I'm not going to, Or
you planned it and said,

I didn't like what I did there.

I think this is better.

- No, I knew it was a
mistake after the fact.

When I saw it, I thought
it destroys a mystique.

It destroys the design
of this person.

This person smiling
is not appropriate.

This person is not necessarily
a negative or dour person,

but this person is not
a frivolous person.

This person must be played
as a scientist

and a student of
what's going on.

- But what is
interesting to me about that,

is you chose to have the dignity

and the seriousness of purpose

that you talked about
being of yourself.

- Yes.

- You invested
in the character.

- Yes.

- You also carried that
out off screen.

- Oh, I couldn't help it.

- We'd sit around the
set like this.

- Yeah.

- And I'd be telling a joke,

about two actors who
said, I'm playing nothing.

No, you can't, you...

- And what would I do?

- You wouldn't laugh.

- No. No. No.

- You would sit there
like you are now.

- Yeah.
- And study...

- And look at...
- And study...

You'd study it.

No matter how funny
I thought it was.

- It was.... Yeah.

I had a problem with that.

I had a problem on
weekends out of, you know,

you play a character
like that, what,

8, 10, 12 hours a day,
five days a week.

Most of your waking life
then is in that character.

And I find it very difficult
to turn it on and turn it off.

So stepping out of the
set and into a chair,

waiting for the next setup,

I couldn't shift out
of it that easily.

- Leonard, I'm gonna question
you on that.

- Okay.
- Okay.

Because it doesn't make
any sense to me.

Because because you are
a professional actor

and we know that we go to work,

we take on the character,
makeup, costume,

wardrobe, everything.

Put on a voice, put on
the thing, put on a look,

try and make it real...

Cut. It's over. Cup of
coffee, cigarette.

How are you doing? What'd
you do over the weekend?

End of day wrap. Take off the
makeup, get the thing fine.

Would you like to
go have a drink?

Would you like to go to a
party? Would you like go?

Okay, great.

We carry on our lives,
just because we're actors.

Your life went on,
your other life,

your real... or the other
life of the non-actors.

- Don't you carry home,

depending on the role
you're playing,

Don't you carry home...
- No. Never.

- Off stage, something
of the character?

- No.
- Well, I can't.

- You carried home
even to this day?

- No. No. Not today.

No, not today.

Today is different.

As a matter of fact, when
I was doing Star Trek four,

the energy of communicating
with people as a director

and then stepping into
a scene as Spock,

was very, very difficult.

Very difficult.
- Wow.

- Very difficult.
- Wow.

- Like, like, like,
like wrenching.

Like wrenching. Really
very painful in a way.

Because I would be concerned,

I've got to play the
scene in a few moments

and I, as a director, I
wanna be somebody else.

But I found myself constraining
myself as a director,

trying to stay somewhere
closer to the character,

so I wouldn't have to
do such a major shift

when it came time to
play the scene.

So I'd be talking to
you or somebody else

about how the scene's gonna go.

You're gonna be here and the
camera's gonna be over there.

But I would find myself gauging
the energy that went into it

in such a way that I
wouldn't have such a distance

to travel back to the character

when I stepped into the scene.

I... That's... I couldn't
help that.

- Wow. Well, that's a
way of working that...

It comes from training,
early training.

- Through a certain kind
of training. Yeah, yeah.

I believed in making that
investment in the character,

particularly that
kind of character

that was so, so boxed...
so specific.

How did you feel about when
the show became successful

and you found yourself
on the street,

people yelling, hey, Kirk,
how did that feel to you?

- I'd never had
that experience before.

I mean, I'd been a popular actor

and I'd done things that
people recognized before,

but they never called me by
the name of the character.

- Character identification.

- The character identification.
So, I kind of disparaged it.

I thought, well, I thought
to myself, What is that?

You know? That's crazy.

And then the same thing
with these conventions

that started after the
show got popular,

or sometime after the
show was canceled,

as it got more popular,
conventions started,

and people, they started
asking us to go to conventions.

And I'm not gonna go to,
that's not dignified.

Actors don't go to conventions,
you know, that's for mobs.

It's mob psychology. And
I wasn't gonna do that.

- So was it all negative
for you?

The celebrity and the stardom?

- In a way, yes.

And then with a quick
twist, no. The...

- What was the twist?
What was the twist?

- The twist is, as
we are talking,

I'm planning on leaving
your home.

I gotta perform in Las Vegas.

I'm gonna go to New York,

do some spectacular things and
see some spectacular things.

Because I'm a celebrity.

Saturday, I perform in New York,

Sunday, I perform in Houston.

And I'm back here and I've
done a whirlwind performance,

exciting life, lights,
limousines, great restaurants.

You know, it's the fantasy

of what people think
Hollywood is.

We know it isn't, but it is
the fantasy of what it is.

So, I'm living the fantasy

of a celebrity by
this performance.

And by the...
- And enjoying it?

- And enjoying it,

having the greatest time,
taking my wife and I

and we'll just have the
most wonderful time.

- And you have opportunities
to be creative.

- And opportunities
to be creative

in a non diagrammed way,
in a totally informal way.

So that's the beauty
of the celebrity,

what isn't pretty is the
lack of privacy in every...

- And when they
yell Kirk at you now,

do you feel any differently
than you did 30 years ago?

- I still got a little
twinge. It's like a...

- You wave back? Do
you ignore it?

What do you do?

- It depends how I'm feeling.

- Do you sign autographs
on the street?

- Rarely.

And the reason I do that now,

is because mostly they
want me to sign pictures

that I know they're gonna sell.

- There's a lot of commerce
in fandom.

- Yeah. And I
don't want to go there.

So I say, I know you're
selling those pictures.

And they say, no, I promise
you we're not.

I say no you are. And
I'm not signing it.

- I resent it when I get a
sense that we're being stalked.

If you get off an
airplane in LA or New York

and there's a bunch of people

waiting with Star Trek
pictures there...

- That's what I mean.

- Somebody has called
those people

and said, he's on this plane.

- So, they know everything
about you.

They know where you stayed.

- I resent
that. I resent that.

But in general, I feel
a great sense of warmth

and positive support
come from most people.

Those are prickly circumstances
and they're troublesome.

But in general, I feel
good about it.

And above all, above
all, I'm very grateful.

And, it took me a while,

but I got rid of all that anger.

That went away when I realized

that I have never had
to worry about work

ever since Star Trek
went on the air.

- Right.

Let me go to the anger
part again.

- Yeah.

- And how you dealt with
that anger offscreen.

How did you try and suppress it?

- The worst moment, The worst,
the worst focal period for me

was shortly after we
began shooting the series.

When I had this fantasy that I
had found a home as an actor.

That all of the previous
work that I had done,

literally they would
have your name

on the dressing room
door in chalk.

Literally there, it
would be in chalk,

or taped on with a piece of tape

that could be ripped off
when you're done,

and next person comes
into this dressing room

where they wipe you off
and you're gone.

The parking space never
had a permanent sign on it.

Suddenly, there's a parking
space with a permanent sign,

a dressing room with a
name painted on the door

that you know was gonna
be there for a few months.

That was extraordinary to me.

And I thought I'd
found a family.

My brother, the writers
and producers

were the father figures,

sisters who were actresses
on the show.

It was a family to me.

I looked forward each
day to coming in

to go to work with my family,

my artistic creative family.

And when I began to
discover that the studio

was not necessarily your
friend or your father,

or your parent or your
relative in any way,

that they were contract people,

studying to see was how
much are we paying him?

And if he asks for any more,

tell him, we'll get somebody
else to wear the ears.

That kind of thing. He wants
a phone for his dressing room?

Is it in the contract?
No, no phone.

No, no, no, no, no.

He wants to get off on
Friday to go, No, no, no.

He has to work till 6:15.
You know, that kind of thing.

And I... And there was no give.

There was no dealing
in a familial way

that made me very confused.

- And angry.

- And angry. Very angry.

And I went into therapy over it.

- Really?
- Yeah.

I started seeing a doctor
a couple of times a week.

While we were shooting?
- Yeah.

And it was all about that issue.

Why is this happening?

Why can't we have reasonable
conversations about things?

Why are they being
so dictatorial?

Why do they seem to
be so angry at me?

But we are loved by the fans.

We're getting all this fan mail.

We get adulation in the
press, in the fan magazines.

We go out in the street,
people yell us, hey, Star Trek.

Hey Spock. Hey Kirk.

Why is the studio acting
so off standish?

Why are the producers
acting so standoffish?

- Did your therapist
have any answers?

- Well, no, I didn't
go to him for answers.

I went to kind of talk
it out to feel...

And I realized that that
was a fantasy that I had.

That it's all about contracts.

It's not about not
about marriage,

it's not about relationship.
It's not about love.

We didn't come together
because we love each other.

We came together

because we have to do
business with each other.

And that doesn't necessarily
mean that we love each other.

It doesn't necessarily
mean you're a family.

And that was very disappointing
to me.

But I finally had to
learn about it.

And then the anger started
to dissipate.

Then I developed a
peace about it.

I came to terms with it and
I became peaceful about it.

- So by the third year you
were peaceful about it?

- Yeah, pretty much.

- Were you
anxious about...

- I was... I would become
more calculating

in my relationship
with the studio.

I would think if I want X or Y,

I better get my agent prepared

for the next time they call us

about something they
want me to do,

and have him say,
well, you know,

Leonard has always felt that
he should have such and such.

How about you give him that

and he'll give you
such and such?

I learned to negotiate.
I learned to negotiate.

- And did you learn to
negotiate in your personal life?

- That took a lot longer.

- Because negotiating
in your personal life,

negotiating relationships,
which is what a relationship is.

- Yeah.

- And it doesn't...

It's not necessarily
calculating or cunning or...

- No, In a personal life.

There should be love.
There has to be love.

- Love.

But a negotiation. Love,
love is a negotiation of...

- There's a different
kind of negotiation.

You're not staying because
you have to do business

with each other.

- No, but I mean, in an
emotional negotiation,

you don't get angry right away.

Or you give somebody the space,

or you give somebody who
wants, that you love,

who wants something diametrically
opposed to what you want.

- You quit smoking while we
were shooting the series.

And I had great admiration
for that.

Was it the second or third
season? Do you remember?

- Second, I think.

- You just quit.

And I remember there was
times when you were desperate

because the nicotine
wasn't outta your system.

And your body was craving
that nicotine.

I remember one time we
finished shooting the scene

and you walked out the
door, off the set,

into another part of the stage.

And I heard you yelling,
I want a cigarette.

I thought he's fighting
that demon.

Ah, fighting that demon.

And you did it. I didn't
do it until 20 years later.

- I...
- Do you remember that?

- I do remember that.

- Why did you decide to do that.

- Well, I smoked,
- and so did I...

- And I had three kids.
And so did you.

And when I go to kiss
my kids, they'd say,

Well, daddy, you smell.
- Really?

And one day I was in a car,

a limo with three or
four other actors,

all of whom were trying
to give up smoking.

And each one had a motive
for giving up smoking.

I don't like it to control me.

I don't... Like, mine
was, I didn't like my kids

not... Turning away
cause I smelled of smoke.

And so I had no problem

other than the few
instances of giving it up.

But I discovered over the years

that I'm not an addictive
personality.

- I am.
- And you are.

- I am.

I thought perhaps
I could smoke...

- Explain a little bit.

- That I cannot do a thing
like smoking a little.

If I smoke a little, I
end up smoking a lot.

If I drink a little, I
end up drinking a lot.

And I was developing a
major drinking habit.

- When did that start?

- I started drinking regularly,

ritually during probably
the second year

or third year of our series.

- Really?
- Yeah.

- Up until then, no problem?

- I drank occasionally.
Not a problem.

I'd have glass of wine
or drink after work.

Two maybe. No problem.

But the ritual became so
ingrained and so important to me

because I looked forward
to that release

at the end of the pressure
of the day

with the dialogue and the pace

and get the 15 pages
or 12 pages done today

and all of that sort of thing.

So, my secretary
was in the habit

of bringing me a drink
at a paper cup.

And I'd call her at
about six o'clock.

I'd say, we'll be finished
in 10 minutes.

And she would know.

That means it'd be down here
with a paper cup, with a drink.

And the minute we finished
the last shot,

I would have a drink.

And then it became a
series of drinks.

And little by little
before I knew it,

I was drinking more and more

because my addicted
personality was taking over.

- Before you knew
it is how long?

- Oh, a matter of a year or two,

or over a period of the
year or two or three.

It became very serious.

- And what is serious?

- Well, to the point where
I could no longer control

how much I was drinking,

I would make myself promises
that I couldn't keep.

That's when I started
to lose my self respect.

I would say... I'd
be drinking midday

on a Saturday or Sunday and
end up passing out in bed.

I'd go go to bed at four
o'clock in the afternoon

and sleep through the next day.

Miss a party in my own
home, that kind of thing.

People coming, and I'd be out.

I'd promise myself,

now this weekend, that's not
gonna happen this weekend.

This weekend, I won't do more

than have a beer or
two on Saturday, maybe.

And not earlier than two or
three o'clock in the afternoon.

And by 11 I'd be on the beer

and by three or four
o'clock in the afternoon,

onto liquor and pass out again.

And then I realized that
I had a serious problem.

That I had become an alcoholic.

- Where did that take
you? That alcoholism?

- Well, it took me
into a territory,

where, as I say, the
looking forward to the drink

became a very important
part of my experience.

And I always took great
pride and great comfort

in the fact that it never
interfered with my work.

Because no matter how long
I had to go without alcohol,

if I was working, I did,
I went without.

- So you never had
the experience

of passing out someplace
that you didn't wanna be?

- No, the most frightening
experiences I've ever had,

were occasionally driving home

and not remembering the drive
wondering, how did I get here?

I could have killed someone.

- Did you black
out at any other time?

- No. I don't remember
ever, ever blacking out.

- So you had a problem but
wasn't like, what was the term?

- That was I was not an
obvious fall down drunk.

But I'm sure that people
could see that I was not,

I wasn't energetic.

I would become reclusive.

I would become distant,
remote, quiet.

Not there. Not there.

- As you know, I leaned
on you yet once again

when I was dealing with my wife

who had an alcoholic problem.

And I remember you telling me,

as we were seated something
like this,

when I said I was gonna
get married.

You said, But she's
an alcoholic.

And I said I loved her,

and that I guess the implication

was that my love would cure her.

And I thought so at the time.

It is a strange affliction.

And as you say, each
individual is different.

Nerine was drinking from
a very early age,

was part of her lifestyle,
family, in the same ways

your dad had a beer or drank

- After work.
- After work.

Was not a big deal.

So alcohol was part of her
upbringing as it was not mine,

as was smoking was not mine.
- Right.

- And so I married her

knowing that she had
a drinking problem,

but not totally understanding
that,

never understanding the
pain that she had.

And I think somewhere
in that mix,

drawing the parallel
between Nerine and yourself,

that anger, that word crops
up in your vocabulary a lot.

That maybe that alcohol
was assuaging the anger.

So the pain in Nerine,
I only had the insight

into what she must
have been feeling

when the pain of her death
overwhelmed me.

Did I begin to think, good lord,

is this what Nerine was
feeling all the time?

And, as a result,

was alcohol the only way
of anesthetizing the pain?

- Yeah.

And, I tend to think that
that's what happened.

- Younger people have a belief,

I've seen it in a
number of cases,

including Nerine's
that I'm young,

in time, I will stop this.

- So, of course you heard
Nerine express herself that way.

- Yes. But I don't have to yet.

- Right.
- I'm not there yet.

I still have a couple
of runs to go.

- Right.
- And I had reached the point

where I thought, I've
got to stop now.

And I got help.

I went to a program and
the program worked for me.

I was blessed, absolutely
blessed to find a program.

I haven't had a drink now in,
I think coming up on 13 years,

and about 15 or 16 years
of not smoking,

I feel blessed on both counts.

But particularly lucky
that it came to me,

that the habit grew to
the power that it did

in my later years.

Because I didn't have
that thought, I'm young,

I still have a distance to go.

Which is a devilish part
of the disease.

- Did you ever have
battles with management?

Any management or producers?

- I didn't have the... No.

I did not have them like that.

One battle that I do remember,

was Gene Roddenberry
bringing a little pin,

which he called the IDIC.
- IDIC, yeah.

- And saying, I want you
to wear this pin.

And I said, What is an IDIC?

And he said, it's the
International Defense Fund,

or something or other.

And I said, but this is a
merchandising thing, isn't it?

He said, well, we'll
make a few dollars on it.

And I realized this was what.

- He wanted you to
function as a billboard.

- So I didn't wanna do that.

So I said, no, I am not
gonna wear this pin.

And they said, You gotta
wear the pin.

I said, I'm not gonna
wear the pin.

So, I think they went to you,

and they said Leonard went

and nobody was gonna
wear the pin.

But I led that fight
for the moment.

And so I had some battles
on those fronts.

Gene wanted to do.

- So you, you were
looking for dignity too.

You were looking to preserve
dignity too?

- Well, I was in a different
position.

I was playing a leading man.

I was playing a Greek hero.

I was playing a guy who got
the girl and won the fight.

And had to make a decision.

Ooh, that's intellectual.

Ooh, that's emotional.

Not really. Cause it...

I was on the horns
of the dilemma

that the protagonist/antagonist

classical storytelling
form takes.

I was functioning well.

I was in my milieu.

I could doff the wardrobe
and the character.

- But you didn't want
it cheapened.

- That's exactly right.

I still thought of myself
as a theater actor.

And that this was...

- Playing a character
of stature.

If this was important,

then it was important enough
for me to have that dignity.

Exactly.

And fighting for the
lines and the script

and the story and going in.

I didn't think of
it as animosity.

I thought of it as this
can be better.

- Right.

- And I don't know how
to make this better.

Do you know how to make this?

Or I know how to make this
better. Here's my idea.

What do you mean you're
not listening to me?

- Right.
- You know.

- Right.
- Well, we don't have time.

When are you gonna have time?

- Which I always
admired greatly.

You had a tremendous
amount of energy every day,

all day long to make it better.

- I have that same feeling
in everything I do.

- Yeah.

- That you and I are
talking to each other.

Are we examining the
deepest points of our lives?

In this small amount of time.
- Right.

- I'm constantly
examining myself

to see if I can make
what I'm doing...

- Get the best out of it.
- The best out of it.

And that's the way
I felt about that.

But there were battles
that we, you and I,

got into with management,

that some of them haven't
been told.

- Right. Gene Coon, do
you remember him?

- Very well.
- Gene Coon, my sense of him,

my image of him was the guy
in the old newspaper movies,

the old black and white movies,

where there was a newspaper guy

who was an editor or a writer.

He wore a slouch hat,

and he worked under a
lamp with a green shade.

And he had a cigarette
dangling from his mouth.

And he was pounding away in
the typewriter like that.

I'll be ready in 10 minutes,

hold the copy, hold the presses.

I got, you know it was
that kind of a guy.

And you walked into his office,

you'd find him doing that.

He pounded out some of
our best material.

- Yeah, he did.

- A lot of
people don't realize it.

And he gave us the Klingons,

he created that whole
world of ideas

that had to do with conflict.

- Well Gene Roddenberry
didn't write

that many of the scripts.

- No, he only
wrote about three

of the 79 is my memory.

Maybe four.
- Yeah.

- Gene Coon wrote a lot of them,

and a lot of other writers
wrote a lot.

So Gene Roddenberry's artistry

was putting the package
together, and...

- And holding to a concept.

- I was just gonna say.

And insisting that
wonderful story

of NBC wanting to clip the
ears off the picture of you.

- Right.

- And him holding to that.
- Right.

- And them saying, well,
he's a devilish character,

and no, Gene to his credit,

- God bless him.
- because it's so easy...

- Saved my character.

- As you and I know, it is so
easy to say to the network,

to the blue suits
as we call them,

oh, well if that's what
you want, we'll do that.

- Right.
- In order to ease the way.

- Absolutely, or your research
says this is a problem.

All right, fine.

We'll find some other
way to do this.

- Right, if that's
your research.

Right.

- Then we'll listen to your...

Because you guys must know.

- Now here was Gene Coon in
the trenches pounding away.

And one day a script came down

with a scene in it that
had had me doing something

to which I took strong
objection.

And I went to his office.

I think you and I
would both agree

that on a television series,

once they deliver that script

and they're starting to
work on next week's script,

which is in terrible shape
and needs a lot of work,

the last thing they want
is an actor coming in

and saying, this doesn't
work for me.

- As we well know.

- Cause they, get
outta here. Just go do it.

I'm working on a worse script
than that for next week.

- Exactly.
- Worse problem than that.

So, I walk into his
office and in effect say,

I've got a problem
with this scene.

What's the matter?

I said, Well, you've got
me doing such and such

and I can't because it doesn't
follow what I did before.

I don't agree with
it or whatever.

Well, just do it.

No, I can't.

If you don't, alright, then
this conversation's over.

I left his office, I
come back to this stage,

there's a phone call for me
and it's my agent on the phone.

He said, Did something happen?

I said, Yeah, I just
had a confrontation

with Gene Coon, why?

He said, You're being suspended.

I said, Really?

Well, I knew there was,

he couldn't possibly
really say to me,

don't come to work anymore
because this is a machine

and if you pull a cog out,
the machine's gonna stop.

- Absolutely.

- So in my arrogance,
I said to my agent,

ask him, Do I have to finish
the day or can I leave now?

- What happened?

- Well, the next call was
from Gene Roddenberry,

was, nobody's suspended.
Let's talk about this.

You know, we went to his office,

he and I and Gene Coon, and
we hammered out a solution.

I really felt badly about it

because I didn't wanna
offend Gene Coon.

And I had a great
respect for him

and great respect
for the position

that I was putting him in.

I was saying, I need
you to fix this.

I need you to get your mind

off of the problem you're
dealing with for next week

and fix this because
I'm having trouble,

and those kinds of things
happen all the time.

- But of course...

Yeah, those kind of
things are common.

And people in every series
on television

have those disagreements
and discussions...

- Did we have disagreements?
You and I?

- You and I?
- Yeah.

- If I didn't have some prior
knowledge to this question

based on some years ago,

I would've forgotten that
we had any animosity,

any differences at all.

And that I would've said, no,
I can't recall any of them.

Cause I can't.

I do remember one and there
was a reporter coming in

to interview you and it was
eight o'clock in the morning

or six o'clock in the morning.

It was makeup time and he was
coming into the makeup room

and we were all... We
all got made up together.

It took you three hours,
took me 15 minutes.

I mean, that literally
is the truth.

I go ahead and put on a pancake

and you had the ears
and the stuff,

and you were there for hours.

So that became a place
in your life

that you needed to spend
part of your life in there,

cause you were spending
three hours in,

one hour removal at
the end of the day,

is four hours in a makeup room.

It was another home for you.
- Right.

- Whereas for me, in,
toss off a few jokes,

get a couple last warmup
for the the day's work

and then, So I said,

I didn't want the reporter
there while I got made up.

And that somehow offended you.

And we got into a disagreement.

I don't remember what it was.
It's obviously nonsense now.

But I would say that that
was one place where you had.

- But we were
reported in the press

as having troubles, as
being in conflict.

Do you remember any of that?

- What do you remember?

- I think there was a
lot made of very little

is my memory of it.
- Right.

- And because the press
loves conflict.

They love to have all...

There's trouble, there's
trouble on the Star Trek set.

- But we did have disagreements

with management on other things.

Movies, for example.

- The making of the first
movie, for me,

was a very tough time.

And you and I, my memory of it,

was we agreed that the
script needed help.

And we struggled and
struggled and struggled.

- We'd sit in either
one of our dressing rooms

and go over how we could
improve the plot.

- Right.

There were two or three
moments that I recall

that we came up with that
a couple of 'em,

found their way into the movie.

One was the whole idea of
treating V'Ger as a child

I said something to you about
V'Ger is acting like a child.

Let's treat her as a child.

And you created the
whole thing about,

all right, everybody
off the bridge.

Well, you stay here leaving
V'Ger alone on the bridge.

And she kind of became
somewhat child like,

where are you going?
Where are you going?

And she started making
the ship shake

and that kind of thing.

And we were trying to create

some sense of energy
and activity going on.

- Right. Right. Right.

- There was another moment
that had to do with Spock.

Spock's space suit is
suddenly missing.

And somebody says,
I think he's out.

I think he's left the ship
and you go rushing off

and get on a space suit
to go chasing after Spock.

- We were trying to get
some action going.

But what I... Here's
what I do remember,

that you and I came
up with some ideas

that we thought were
really good.

- Yes.

- In the middle
of shooting.

We go to Bob Wise, the director.

- Yes.

- You threw
me the ball.

I should tell the story.
- Right.

- I trot out
all my bells and whistles.

- Right.

- And I tell
what we, you and I,

have devised.
- Right.

- As an improvement
on the plot.

- We're looking for
a major event

near the ending of the movie.

- Right. And
I dramatize for Bob Wise

What we thought was good,
and Bob Wise sits back.

I said, Hey, that's good.

- Right.

- I want you to
tell this to Gene Roddenberry.

- Right.

- Okay, now...
- The writer.

- The writer.
- Producer, creator.

- Right.

So we had spent the afternoon
performing for each other.

How we would do this. I just...

- Well rehearsed.
- Well rehearsed.

I'd gone in, I'd done my...

That was the afternoon before,

I'd done my evening performance
with Bob.

- Right.

- When it came time to
tell Gene the story,

whether we were intimidated,
I was intimidated or not.

- It shrank.
- It wasn't as good.

- It never made its way.
- I remember that, I remember.

It's like the energy
had gone out of it

earlier in the afternoon.

- Like, Oh my God.

- Yeah, there was something
intimidating

about telling Gene what
should be done to his script.

- Yes, I remember
the light was, like,

overhead and his face
was shadowed.

- Yeah.

- And it looked very
intimidating.

- It was a very difficult time.

- Difficult in the movie,
the first movie.

- The making of that movie.
- Yeah.

- The whole project was
a difficult time.

- Yeah.

- In all fairness, it
had been 11 years

since we'd made the series

and there were always
all these questions

about should the ship
be the same?

Should it have changed? Should
the costumes be the same?

Should the characters
refer to this 11 year gap?

And say, gee, it's been 11
years since we've been together.

Or should we just ignore it?
How do you deal with that?

You know?
- Right.

- Very difficult.
Very difficult.

And the result was not the
most satisfying result.

- Do you have a copy of this?
- Uh...

- Hirschfeldii.

- Oh, you know, I don't,
Wait a minute.

I don't have a copy of that.

- Take it. It's yours.

- Okay.

- Take it home.
- What are you laughing at?

- Take it home.
- Okay, I will.

Send this home.

- I think this is the first
TV guide cover we we ever had.

- How many TV
guide covers did we have?

- I don't know.

I lost track, but I believe
that was the first one.

This is us, the Siamese twins.

- Yes. You
and I joined at the hip.

- Now I don't want you to think

that Star Trek was my
first science fiction.

- Leonard,
I see that. Zombies.

What do you think about
all this merchandising?

- I can't, I still cannot...

I still cannot...

completely get around
it somehow. I can't.

It's hard to believe.
It's a strange experience.

- It's an industry
though, isn't it?

I mean when you think
that billions...

What'd they tell us? Billions.
$2 billion.

- Star Trek. The industry
is in a class by itself.

- Oh boy. That's
my favorite picture of us.

- What year was that?

- Oh, who knows?

All I know is I was
getting a little,

I cracked a joke and
there was no laugh.

Here's an actor.

- Flop sweat.
- Flop sweat.

Here's the definition
of flop sweat.

- Is it warm in here,
or is it just me?

- Or am I just sweating?

Oh, that's my metabolism.

- Here's my Vulcan cap.
- Oh no. Leonard Vulcan.

The USS Vulcan.

- Yeah.

- William] Did they name
it after the character?

- A Coast Guard ship.

Coast Guard ship called
the Vulcan.

- And then you got
the Enterprise.

- Well, of course.

- This whole house is
dedicated to Star Trek.

- No, not
the whole house.

Just a little corner.

- I feel that if you know
someone for the number of years

you and I have known each
other, it's almost like a debt.

You almost like, hey, per force,

you know each other per force.

You have something, so much,

in common that where
there was...

If there were no affection
for each other,

you'd still be bonded

by the length of years
you've known each other.

And so I feel that in
some lesser way,

a lot lesser way with
the rest of the cast.

What I don't...

- Do you feel affection
for them?

- Because I feel affronted.

I feel that I've been assailed
by some of them in defense.

I've thought, Oh, well
I don't like them,

but that's childish
because I have no, no...

I have no feeling of animosity.

I never did feel, never
understood their reasons,

for what I've read as
their distaste me.

I was interviewing Nichelle
Nichols and I said,

great, Nichelle, that
was a great interview.

Thank you so much.

I was closing up this for
a book I was writing...

Close up my, She said,
well, wait a minute.

Don't you wanna hear how
much we hate you?

- I turned back on my...
- Did she really say that?

- She actually said,
wait a minute,

did you wanna hear how
much we hate you?

I thought, what was that
all about? Is that...

And then I turned on the machine

and she said, well,
because you didn't do this,

you didn't do that and
you never talked to us

when we were on the set.

It was like outlandish to me.

It was like outlandish stuff
and childish. And what do...

- What do you think that's
about? Where does that come from?

- I have no idea. I wondered
if you knew.

- I had one incident
with one of the actors.

One night, we were
shooting one of the movies,

and I was finished
for the evening,

had cleaned up my makeup, was
walking on the lot at night,

dark, to my car.

Here's this actor walking
along ahead of me,

more slowly than I, and
as I'm passing to him,

I said, Goodnight so and so.

And he wouldn't respond.
Didn't respond.

And I thought that's
kind of strange.

I just kept on walking,
went to my car.

The next day, in a group
of people, casually,

I said, Well, you know, I said
goodnight to you last night

and you didn't respond to me.

And he said, do you
wanna know why?

I thought, you know, I'm
not sure I really do.

The point is that, if
there is a point here,

it's that there are unknown,
unexpected,

and sort of secret hidden
resentments that build up.

- I've tried to explain
it to myself in this way.

You, DeForest and I were
the three people

who were there every day.

And we worked our lengthy day,

come back the next day
and we were three buddies.

Really, buddies for almost the
whole time. Some exceptions.

They came in, the other members
of the cast on occasion,

a day, a week, maybe,
sometimes not.

And the show was over
and everyone was happy,

at least as far as I know.

Then the conventions started

and the actors would go
to the conventions

and the audience would
get up and applaud.

And slowly, I think
the cast members

began to consider themselves
the leads in the film

and no longer wanted
to take a backseat.

- Interesting.

- And their perception of what
the reality was had changed.

- So, you think that all
of this happened, sort of,

post after the making
of the series?

- I never got it.

I never heard it.

I never thought of anything,

but great when I would
meet them on,

after the show for our various
meetings that we would have.

I never got any sense
of removal.

- There's a kind of a
rashomoon going on here.

To some extent.

An incident takes
place on a set,

which is a highly charged
emotional situation for people.

Career dreams are
being played out

or failing or a combination
of both.

And you might say to
two or three observers,

what did you see happen here?

And one says, oh, I saw
a great camaraderie.

And another says, oh God,
I felt such awful tension.

You know, that kind of thing.

And it is really hard.

It's hard to understand what
that resentment is all about.

Whether it's valid, whether
it's springs

from some imagined or
real slight of some kind.

- Because the incidences
that I've read about

that has caused their
resentment towards me,

have been so minute, like
maybe that did happen.

But how does that affect
things, really?

- Yes, I understand.

So not easy to come
to grips with.

- No, I never fully
understood where they were.

Maybe that's the reason
they resented me.

- I don't know.

- I never fully comprehended
what it was

that was bothering them.

- People would like to feel
that a group of performers,

as we are, or were,

that work together in
a sort of a family way.

A group of people solving
problems together,

really do have this
camaraderie and this chemistry,

and meet regularly
for barbecues.

- I think of them
with affection,

and knowing them that
as long as we did,

adds to the mystique
of affection.

So, I'm puzzled by
their reaction.

- So, you do feel affection
for them.

- In... Yes.

Removed, you know, I
mean an affection for.

- Not a very personal
way, but you have some.

- Yes, exactly.

For the image. The person
that one sees.

As against the person inside.

- I always... I'm always
happy to see them

when I bump into them at
a convention or whatever.

I don't spend any time with them

because my life has gone
off in other directions.

Our lives have gone off
in other directions.

We are involved in
other activities,

we have other interests.

Yours and mine meet much more
often, which is wonderful,

because it puts us
together more frequently.

And we choose to spend
time with each other.

But the fact that I like them,

or have respect for
their contribution

doesn't necessarily mean
that I would seek them out

to spend time with any
more than two people

who work side by side
in some other capacity,

don't necessarily
see each other.

You see each other
once in a while

at a company project
or whatever,

some kind of a business event.

But, we have both of us
very active, busy activities

and lives and surrounded
with other people.

And that's the way, life
takes you where it takes you.

- I understand that, but I
thus, I still remain puzzled.

- Doing a series is
backbreaking work.

It's like coal mining.

Although you might get some
argument from the coal miners,

still 14, 18 hours a day,
day in, day out.

All the mental and physical
work that you're required to do.

- It's hard.
- It's life consuming.

- Yes.
- So for the period of time,

you're doing a series
with publicity and all,

even when the show
is off the air,

no longer filming and coming
back the following season,

there are three, four months.

But they're usually occupied
too, for one reason or another.

And so there's barely
any time for family.

So in my own case, my
family life suffered.

- So did mine.
- Both of ours.

- Yeah.

- And we lost our family,
children and wife,

children for a short period of
time, wife obviously forever.

So we married our wives
for our various reasons

and lost our wives for
the same reason.

- Well, my marriage
ended much later,

but it was just a longer,
slower process than yours was,

but it was the same process.
- Right.

I had a bad divorce and
essentially all the money

that I'd been able to save
was put into my now ex-wife,

and my whole focus then
became taking care of my kids.

So I was lost and, and lonely.

I got divorced in the
middle of the series

and took affection from
wherever I could find it.

Not every week from every
one of those beautiful girls

that were on our show,

but there was always
someone around

who had needs and needs
to be fulfilled

and needed to fulfill.

So, that romance and
lust and passion

all played a part in
my life for years.

I just wanted and still
do, of course,

to taste as much of life as
possible, which meant as,

you know, as we've eaten
meals together,

let's have that, and let's
have that, and let's have that

and bring it for the table.
- Right.

- The variety of it.
- Sure.

- Thinking maybe that's
part of living.

And maybe that is an aspect
of living for a while.

Then finally one learns
to concentrate and focus.

- So it's a combination of a
lustful life and availability.

- That's good. I'll take that.

But it's also, I hasten
to add, a learning process

to then focus and absorb and
be complete in a singular.

- You feel complete?
You feel complete.

- Yeah. Feeling really good
about love and togetherness.

- Yeah.
- Yeah.

- Have you had talks with your
daughters about that period?

About their memory of
their relationship with you

as a result of Star
Trek in any way,

or how it might have
affected them?

- I always kept my kids
away from Star Trek

for the longest time, they
didn't know what I did

until they became 7,
8, 9 years old.

They didn't know what
that was all about.

Even when I brought them,

when they were three
and four to the set,

they didn't really
know what it was.

- Right.

- So I kept Star Trek out of
out of their consciousness

for the longest time.

So Star Trek itself, the
entity did not affect them,

but their father's time
consumption did.

You know, and everybody
suffered as a result of that.

- You've
talked about that.

- Yes. Over the years.

I'm sure we did.
- Yeah.

- It's long since
been ameliorated, you know,

my children are grown now,

but certainly Star
Trek left its mark

seared into the psyche of
three children and an ex-wife.

- Yeah. I'm trying to...
Still trying to ascertain,

to this day, exactly
what the real impact was.

I know that for a very
long time I was obsessed

with the idea of making a living

and that when Star
Trek came along,

although we were never a
gigantic hit originally,

we were just kind of marginal,

we just kind of stumbled along

and struggled along
for three seasons.

We didn't become a big news
event until years later

when the show entered
syndication.

But in those early
years, for me,

the obsession was, I've
caught a wave.

It may not be a big wave

and it may be just one
short lived wave,

and I've got to get the best
out of it that I possibly can.

Any opportunity I've got to grab

and I've got the sock away
some protection money,

some security for the future.

In case I should go back
to what it was before,

looking for work.
- Right.

- I have
no way of knowing,

coming out of this
Spock character,

will I ever be able
to work again?

Will I be hireable? How
long will this last?

What effect will it
have in my future?

I've got to myself and
that became my reason,

my excuse if you will, for
being away from home. A lot.

Working, working, working.

- And that affected
your marriage.

- Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

And it affected my
relationship with my children.

I think my children
probably would say,

that they have had a love/hate
relationship with Star Trek.

They're very proud of
what was accomplished.

They're very proud of references

that they see in the
newspapers even today.

So and so is going where
no one has gone before.

Obviously a reference
to Star Trek,

things that were said
on our show,

things that you and I did

that have come into the lexicon,

into the vocabulary of
the society, proud of.

But at the same time, there's
got to be deep somewhere,

a resentment and having
lost their father,

for some meaningful
period of time.

- A meaningful period of time.

At least three years.
- Yeah.

- Probably more.

And there's something
they'll never recover,

cause that's four years in
a formative life, it's gone.

- It's gone.

- So there's a, if not a
dearth, there's a change

in a, in the path.

- We have spent the last several
years, consciously trying,

at least I have,

and I think my son and
daughter have felt the same,

trying to build a
new relationship,

really, a new relationship,

based on who we are now and
what we know about the past.

And then my alcoholism
got in the way as well,

that made me remote
when I was around.

- During the period of time

when your marriage
was breaking up.

- Yeah.

- What did you find
yourself doing?

- My marriage broke up
in the late eighties,

mid to late eighties.

And with hardly any
lapse of time,

I began to see the lady
who is now my wife,

whom I dearly love and have
a great relationship with,

and have had a wonderful
coming up to 13 years with.

I still mourn the loss

of the idea of the great
first marriage.

It was part of our generation

to have a marriage that
lasted and lasted and lasted.

And I stayed 33 years.

- Did you stay too long?

- I... Yeah, I think so.

I think so. And I really
don't know why.

Except it was traditional.

- No, it was part of our.

- It was traditional.

- We were programmed.

- Yeah, exactly.

It was programming. I was
concerned about the kids.

Finally, I thought, well,
they're old enough now

that we can deal with this.

And, in a way, to some
degree I was wrong.

They were in deep shock
for quite a while over it.

And loyalty.

It's question of loyalties

and how do you deal with this

and how do you deal with
the separation?

And one has bad feelings
about the other

because it was not
a happy ending.

- Then you come to success.

Look at this, look
at this place.

This is material success.
- Yeah.

- But in addition to that,
you and your wife are...

So happily married.
- Peace. Peace.

Peace. Serenity.

- You know, I would think.

- I wake
up in the morning.

I sometimes think I finally
got my reward,

you know, for the tough times.

I really do. I feel rewarded
for the tough times.

And I used to make promises
to myself, if I ever make it,

if I ever make a living,
if I ever become solid,

if I ever be, I will do
this and I will do that.

- Well, what's this and that?

- Well, I mean,

become a substantial
member of the community.

Become philanthropic, become
helpful to other people.

And I... And we try to
do that all the time now.

- Yes, I know you do.

- I feel greatly blessed.

- So, you've reached
the serenity.

- Yeah. Yeah.

- And I...

- These are good times.

- Remarried.
- Yeah.

And you are happy.
- Happy.

Wonderfully happy.
- Yeah.

- And have not
stopped yearning, and fighting,

and grasping, and crawling,
and clawing

and thinking, I can do
this, I can get that,

I can make this happen
or whatever it is.

And I get up in the morning
and I'm starting to go,

you know?
- Yeah.

- And...
- Running, running, running.

- The body is still there.

I don't have the aches and
pains that I should have,

so I'm physically all right.

- Yeah. Well, you're a
lot older than I am now.

- Yeah.

- Just don't feel it.

So, I'm still thinking
the holy grail is ahead.

You know, I still
haven't made it.

I'm going to...
- What do you...

What do you dream about
accomplishing?

- Making another film.
Directing, writing, producing it.

Making something.

- I don't wanna direct
anymore, but I, as you know,

I'm very busy with photography
these days.

That's my most satisfying
creative activity every day.

- Why? What do you see in it?

- I love to make that product.

I love to make images
and I dream about images.

I do what is referred to
as fine art photography,

is the creative process.

So I'm not reporting.

I'm creating something
in front of the camera.

- And what is it
you're creating?

What do you define, what
it is you're creating?

- Memory.
- Memory. Your memory.

- My memory, or a collective
memory?

- Okay.
- Society of Memory.

- Something you were gonna
make me remember something.

That we all remember.

- Something distant
in our vague...

- Jung's collective memory.
- That's right.

- Okay.

- Eros.
- Eros.

- Eros.
- In terms of the erotic.

- Yes. Love and spirituality.
- Wow.

- Hopefully it all
comes together.

- Yeah.

- Hopefully you touch
all those threads.

- Right.

- All my
images are done

with traditional black
and white film.

I do all my own lab work,

my own developing,
my own printing,

all the silver gelatin prints.

- And you have
an inventory of pictures.

- Oh, yeah.

- And what do you do?

What are you gonna do with it?

- Well, I mean,
there will be a book next year

and the book will be
essentially about spirituality,

but hopefully combining
all the other elements

that we talked about.

- You and I have spent more
than half our lives together.

I think of you as one
of my dearest friends,

if not my dearest.

- Same.
- Yeah.

And I truly love... I love you.

And I'm thinking,
I'm looking now,

perhaps the reason I'm
running as fast as I can,

is I see very clearly
my own death.

But with the death of my wife,
and the lady I've married,

nursed her husband through
cancer to his death,

I see death and mortality
very, very clearly.

It's just over there.

He's coming on.

And it still doesn't relieve me

of all the irritations
of everyday life,

where I should be able to say,

oh, I'm not gonna let
that bother me because,

you know, how many years
do I have left?

You can count them.

Very conscious of death
and my fear of dying.

I'm truly afraid.

And when I'm asked, what
am I afraid of,

it's inchoate, loneliness,
of loss, of aloneness.

Name the thing and
I'm afraid of it.

I don't know how
to deal with it.

How are you dealing with it?

- I think of it as a
loss of consciousness.

And, I am conscious of
it. I think about it.

I'm not sure quantitatively
that I think about it

in the same terms or as
much of as you do,

but I do think about
it quite a bit.

I'm aware that the years
are numbered,

and I'm not quite sure
what the number is.

I can't, nobody can
know that for sure.

But, and I expect, I still
have some pretty good time,

because genetically,

my parents lived into
their mid eighties.

And I figure I still
got some time.

I have a brother who's
very healthy and not weird,

and he's five years
older than me.

But I do think about it.

I think about the loss of
relationships, the end of that.

I think about the loss
of creative opportunity,

which I love to be creative,

to see things evolve
that you dream about

and can bring to fruition.

I think it is important now

to be making philanthropic
statements,

to be giving back, giving back,

giving back as much as I can,

as much as we can into
the community, into...

Very into funding for
arts, funding for children,

funding for education,
things that we believe in,

care about, and leaving
a legacy.

I'm concerned about that.

I'm concerned that
it be positive

and constructive and meaningful.

The loss of De Kelly
meant a lot to me.

I saw him as kind of an uncle
figure as I remember him.

A very even tempered,
very wise gentleman

who saw a lot and needed
very little,

or at least seemed to
need very little.

His life was very simple.

He and Carolyn had this
very quiet personal life,

which was not a life
that I would aspire to.

But, I did admire his
serenity and his calm,

at least his apparent
serenity and calm,

and his craftsmanship that
I came to really respect

over a period of years.

And it was so useful
in our kind of mix

that it gave us both, I think,

something wonderful to
deal with and work with.

It meant a lot to me
when he was gone.

And I thought that's
the beginning of an end,

was the way I saw it.

- I think of him, my first
impression is Raintree County

and the young DeForest Kelley.
- Yeah.

- Good looking
whipper snapper,

southern gentleman.
- Yeah.

- And that life is gone
and lost and over.

And you and I are
talking about it,

and there'll be a few,
it'll be a lot of people,

who will remember for a
while, DeForest Kelley.

But, he was an actor and
he was in a hit show.

And that's why he's remembered
for the flicker of time.

- Right.

- Longer
than most of us.

- Right.

- That it's
no time at all.

So you live and die.

- Shakespeare said it,
the actress struts,

and frets his weary
hour upon the stage

and then is heard no more.

- Well, I want to hear from you,

make a pact with me.

-
How does that feel?

- Well, I'll visit you here.

- That is an inevitability.

In the meantime, I
think I feel good

about the fact that,
I think both,

you in your own way,
and I in my own way,

have found the energy and
the lust for life each day

to do interesting, and exciting,

and creative, and productive,
and fun things to do

in a wonderful relationship.

That's the blessing of it.

- True. And the curse is for me,

is I haven't done enough
in all those categories.

- Yeah. Well, you do a lot.

- Thank you, Leonard.

- Thank you.

- You're getting, you're getting
makeup on mine, you know.

- I'm sorry.

- Amongst all this
beauty, to a large extent,

to some extent, Star
Trek is responsible.

- Oh yeah. To a very
large extent. Right.

- So it's good, huh?
- Oh, yeah.

- Star Trek was good.
- Oh, yeah.

- Yeah. I think so too.

I mean, I really,
really liked it.

I liked the show.

- You're my best friend.

- That, if it were for
nothing else, right?

- Yeah.

- If it we're nothing
else, it would've been...

- This makes it worthwhile.

- Most worthwhile.
- Right.