Original subtitles

Yeah, who knows when,

-who knows where. -That's a good thing.

We don't know. Just shoot us.

We just go. That's a good thing.

-Except me and Steve's. -Right.

I'll be buzzing the whole day.

[both laughing]

[relaxed music]

Welcome back to Mind the Game,

brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondery.

In this episode, we're gonna talk about the playoffs

and what trends we're noticing. So, three big ones that jumped out

were the physicality in refereeing, the pick-on game,

and also zone defenses, junk defenses,

how teams are trying to slow others down and give them a second look.

We also weighed into the history of momentum

and some playoff experiences between both LeBron and I,

and in particular,

LeBron's comeback with the Cleveland Cavaliers

versus the Golden State Warriors from a 3-1 deficit,

a historic final series, and some incredible storytelling.

So, thanks for joining, hope you enjoy.

Please like, comment and subscribe.

[relaxed music continues]

I thought it'd be good to just kind of take a peek at

-what we're seeing in the playoffs. -Love it. Okay.

Big picture, instead of going through every series,

we'll touch on 'em through this prism.

For me, three things I wanna discuss,

and we'll take our time on them,

is the physicality in refereeing,

how that changes in the playoffs.

-Yeah. -And it makes a big difference.

Pick-on game, so how that leads to adjustments,

cat-and-mouse, match-ups, spacing, zone.

And the last one is zone.

How these are linked, how they play a part in each other,

we're seeing more zone,

but we're also seeing more man that looks like zone.

-For sure. -You know.

So, let's start with the physicality.

I mean, one thing is like,

the play-offs are always gonna be more physical,

but I think they're generally the last 10, 15 years,

it's a big contrast from regular season to the playoffs.

Yeah, the first thing I want to say to that is, like,

if they're gonna allow it to be as physical as it is,

you gotta give us a little time to prepare for it.

So, like, post All-Star break, something like that.

I mean, post All-Star break is usually like 30 games left,

so like maybe 12 to 15 games left in a regular season.

A month.

Like a month, give us a month to prepare for it,

because it goes from zero to a hundred.

It goes from us to be able to body check,

you know, oh, no body check, no hand checking,

-no pushing a guy off their spot. -[Steve] Right.

-No rerouting guys at all… -Right.

…or eight, nine months,

or for six and a half, seven months, and then…

-Have at it. -…two months straight, have at it.

Have at it.

Like, straight up, just no holds barred.

And you know, it's fun.

I don't think either of us have a problem with that.

-We don't have a problem with it. -It's a contrast.

It's just a contrast, you know, of not being able to get into that flow.

So, yeah, it's definitely, over the last like,

you know, like you said, 10, 15 years of the game,

-they've allowed us to do it. -[Steve] Yeah.

-I wish we could do it all year. -[Steve] Yeah.

But also have the body makeup for it

-to do it all year, too. -Yeah.

So it wouldn't be beneficial to the product to do--

run a marathon, I mean, run a sprint…

-[Steve] Right. -…during a marathon.

Right. That's a great question,

that almost draws me out of the discussion into like,

where are we as a game, right?

Like, we're playing faster, pace and space.

And a part of that is 'cause in the regular season,

and in the playoffs, too,

it is beneficial to play quicker, to spread the floor.

But it is a big contrast,

and I think sometimes people will say,

"The numbers, numerically, the playoffs

aren't that much different than the regular season."

But I think when you're out there on the floor, it's different.

When you're out there on the floor, it feels different, you know it's different.

You know, the things that you're able to get away with,

you can't get away with once the postseason start.

And like I said, I love it.

It comes down to just making basketball plays.

You know, it's not much foul baiting,

it's not much, you know, trying to trick the referees.

It's just like, how can we execute, get a bucket,

-get a stop on the other end? -[Steve] Right, yeah.

And that's the true essence of the game.

Another way of the true essence of basketball is to adjust.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -Right, adapt, adjust.

But I think that is one thing that's good about it

is it takes the foul baiting out of the game, you know?

You're less likely to get a head snap foul.

You're less likely to get, you know,

some of these calls that people bait the referees into,

they're kind of like get up and play.

-I like that about it. -I like it, too.

But I do think, I don't necessarily wanna see

the whole regular season be played like that.

No, well, I mean, our fans already are, you know,

complaining about things, and I would agree with that.

I would not want to see the two-month,

you know, way we officiate the game

or allow us to play the game for, you know,

from October to mid-April.

-[Steve] Right. -I don't think that would be beneficial.

And I mean, it all plays into the way the game is played, right?

But what's been cool about it is also to see like,

you know, like Jalen Brunson and KAT get stops

or be more reliable at the end of game two in Boston, right?

They're more physical, they're allowed to get away with more.

The regular season right away, foul.

They're in the bonus or taking on the side,

allowing them to bump, use the physicality,

so it goes both ways a little bit.

Like, in the regular season,

you bring up "the non-defender," quote, unquote,

and they can't touch, can't bump, can't foul.

Now they're allowing to let 'em play a bit, so it's a more competitive game…

-[LeBron] Absolutely. -…in many ways.

Absolutely, I mean, listen, you take the seeding out.

You take the seeding and the regular,

you completely take it out, you know,

and you have two teams that's going, and, obviously,

you know, round one is always challenging

for the eighth seed or the lower seed

or whatever the case may be, unless you have that team that,

it doesn't matter if it's regular season or postseason.

And if I'm more physical and I have the athleticism,

I have the players that can go down and make things happen,

you know, the seeding doesn't…

Right.

Well, it gives the lower seed a way to kind of--

Junk it up a little bit.

Yeah, take the gap between the two teams out.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we're seeing it now

where Indiana is able to close the gap, you know,

you can close the gap.

They're smashing the gap right now.

They're smashing the gap right now, you know,

being up, you know, what they are in the series.

You know, that is a byproduct of that, for sure.

Mm, yeah.

And then, I guess, you know,

I think it goes back to our conversation around offense

and, you know, when teams are allowed to play that physical,

you know, that's another reason why we don't run a lot of actions, right?

'Cause you just can't run the actions with a fluidity

that creates advantages.

And now you're late in the shot clock.

Or you shoot bad,

you get into money time or whatever your call is

or throw cast-up shots,

that's not gonna be beneficial to you.

Which leads a lot to the pick-on game, right?

It's simple: Let's get to our spots, let's get space,

let's try to bring up the weakest defender.

Let's try to iso here, instead of, you know,

the nightmare scenario which we see guys have to do

because the defense is so physical, is fight for 15 seconds

to try to get that best defender off your best creator.

You can't get him off, right?

-And then he goes iso anyways. -Yep.

So he's been battling for 20 seconds

just to get an iso that he could have got in the first few seconds.

And here comes up the step back mid-range, too.

And that's a big difference from regular season to postseason.

You know, I think you are gonna get called a lot more

fighting through these screens, getting up into people.

So you do get the matchup you want a lot more

in the regular season than the playoffs.

That's why I think it's fun to see,

because people are now competing on a different level.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, it's, it's... something to...

there's an end game, you know,

there's something to really like, you know,

obviously, you're building up everything throughout the regular season.

In order to be a great team, you have to build those things up,

and I'm never gonna say the regular season doesn't matter,

'cause it absolutely freaking does,

like, you have to build out those habits

throughout the course of the season.

From a viewership and competitive standpoint,

to be able to get to the postseason and be able just to have that,

you know, this is time.

-Right. -You know, this is time,

like, this is the sprint, you know?

This is the hundred-meter/yard dash,

and we getting to it right now, you know,

so it's definitely,

these games have been amazing,

-like you said. -Right.

You know, to have three teams at one point,

you know, win the road,

all road games in the postseason.

You had New York, you had Indiana, and…

-Denver beat OKC. -Yeah, Denver beat OKC,

-Golden State. -Golden State

-with Steph getting hurt, still. -Like, you know,

it's just great basketball right now.

Yeah, I mean the physicality is one thing,

the three-point variance, you know,

there's some numbers around, like,

I think so far this playoffs,

if a team took one more three than the other team,

they're like 12-9 and winning.

-I know it's a small sample. -But that's still crazy.

And then, there's another one that, like,

I think from 2022 till today, you know,

the team that makes one more three

has, like, a 60% winning record or something.

So the three-point variance

has changed what home court advantage means.

So when you add some of these things,

like three-point variance, refereeing,

physicality, the game really changes,

and it does, it comes down to, like,

we're always making micro-adjustments.

You know, you're trying to give yourself a slight advantage.

Such a big part is just competitive nature.

That's why you see Boston go 12 for 50.

-Right. -And game two.

-Die by the sword. -You know what,

they said, okay, we're gonna do the same thing

in game three in New York, and then, they end up, I think,

hitting like nine or 10 threes in the first half,

you know, and just break open that game.

You know, it's just, they're gonna live by it and die by it, for sure.

Yeah, and these comebacks, I mean,

we've already seen Indy have 'em,

we've seen obviously the Knicks have 'em.

So it's not just the road team winning, it's the nature they're winning.

Yeah, you're never out of a game.

The three-point barrage that has gotten

to the point in our game, you're never out of a game.

You know, you gotta get to--

being up 30 is not--

-you gotta get to 35-40. -[Steve] Right.

You know, 'cause if you up 30 at halftime and--

Yeah, I'd say like mid-twenties.

You gotta get 26, or it's still on the table.

I think mid-thirties, man.

-Maybe. -If I'm up 26 at halftime,

-and we get a quick boom-boom-boom… -Maybe the half.

At the half. Yeah, it's back to 17.

-Up 26, mid-third, I feel-- -There you go.

I feel pretty good.

I mean that's, I still think that's great.

That's great. Like at the game, 'cause, you know,

we've seen some amazing games.

You've seen just all-out wars out there,

and then you see games where they're blowouts.

And then we've seen a lot of blowouts that get reeled back in.

Now you're playing that momentum game.

How do you feel about like hot hand momentum?

You know, analytics people, they don't really believe in momentum.

They don't believe in hot hand. Every shot has the same value.

-Yeah, I disagree. -[Steve] Me, too.

Me and the analytics department,

we're not like great friends, you know?

Well, one reason, well one, yeah.

Well, one reason, in their defense, is that

they're basing their whole career on empirical data.

-For sure. -So they have,

-for them to do it. -This is what they do.

But on the court, you feel it. The crowd feels it.

There's a feeling on the court that

there's nobody that's not on the court could ever understand.

You know?

And there's momentum plays

and momentum shots that does not show up

in the analytic data, you know.

There's certain, you know, you able to, it's a certain,

the Anthony Edwards dunk last game over Kevon Looney

is just a different momentum play.

-Right. -You know, in game one,

the Draymond threes that he was making in game one in Minnesota

is a different momentum shot

than if somebody else made it.

We're leaving. We're giving you that, yeah.

You know? Okay.

But it's certain passes, there's certain,

you know, the way you take a charge, the way you,

the extra, the hockey assist,

which doesn't show up in analytics.

Hockey assist doesn't, they're not tracking those.

-And maybe they are. -[Steve] Yeah.

But it's just a certain feel that the ball,

the court, the crowd, the energy,

you out there, you know,

"Oh shit, that was a momentum play."

And if we get one more on there,

I start thinking about, what was the game?

-NBA Jam. -Yeah.

When you catch fire, he's on fire,

boom, boom, boom, boom. You start seeing that happen.

The game, you see it changing, right in front of your eyes.

And sometimes, you don't even feel as a card player

and someone who plays, you know, gambles a little bit,

sometimes you don't see the table turn.

[Steve] Right.

And hopefully, you on the other side when you're able to see it.

You don't be the last one to find out.

You do not wanna be the last one to find out when the table is turned.

And those are things that just don't show up in analytic data.

I mean, the analytics is great. I value it.

I know you value it, in part.

It's important, but it's meant to be cold.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -Right.

But we're human beings, right? It doesn't account for chemistry.

It doesn't necessarily account for like

a match of five guys on the floor all the time.

And all the different things that are between the numbers.

It's great, but it's always gonna be just a part of the puzzle.

-Absolutely. -So I think that,

I think momentum for me is always something that

as a player, you can feel, you can ride.

And you also are trying to obviously prevent.

You also have to, I mean, shit,

you have to have the right personnel to fit the data, too.

I understand that, you know, more threes,

you know, layups, all that stuff.

But, you know, there's certain coaches and certain,

you know, rosters that doesn't always fit the criteria,

but they're trying to meet it,

because they've hired this department.

-[Steve] Sure. -And you get out there,

and there's times where I'll be on the floor and I'm,

there's teams that's out there doing certain things,

or certain guys that's doing things I know doesn't benefit his game.

You know, so is there a line where it is like,

it's not benefit to where he is today,

but this is what he has to do, because that's what they're telling him to do,

and now this individual is not looking as good as he should look.

Yeah, that's, I think, a part of teams that aren't quite there yet.

'Cause the analytics informs your scouting,

your player development.

You're trying to create a profile of player

that fits into a profile of--

-Right. -System of playing.

Another way that I think momentum is interesting is in the prevent defense.

Like, so the Boston example.

You know, maybe it's not the right word,

but they're up 20, and now they're playing not to lose.

Yeah, we're gonna foul.

And the other team is, we got nothing to lose.

So they're coming at you with everything they have.

And things flip fast.

-Right? -Yeah.

I mean, I was watching game three, obviously,

in the Garden and Boston was,

you know, dominating that game.

I think they were up 25, maybe 28 in the third quarter.

Mitchell Robinson's on the court.

-Right. -They just started fouling.

-Fouling him. -Put him to the line.

We're not gonna give you any momentum.

Can't make threes.

We're not gonna allow Jalen Brunson to catch a little rhythm.

'Cause you know, and we all know,

you lose one game, okay, that's one game.

You lose by 50, you lose by one.

-[Steve] Right. -It still hurts.

But the one thing that can happen is a guy can build momentum.

-He sees the ball goes in. -Yeah, changes everything.

It changes everything.

Now he's feeling good about his shot

that he maybe wasn't feeling good up until that point.

And like you said, on the contrary,

when you getting your ass whooped, you're just trying to,

you're doing anything to try to get back into it.

You know, so, you know, Boston,

they do a good job of like either, you know,

up 28 or shit, if I'm up six, they're--

-Not afraid to junk it up, too. -Yeah, to junk it up, too.

On the ringside.

They always keeping it pedal to the ground.

[relaxed music]

I think it's been interesting to see so much zone…

-Yeah. -…in the playoffs,

or the hybrid man zone.

So I played for Del Harris back in the day,

who I believe wrote a book about defense.

-Really? -He was Nelly's assistant

-when I was in Dallas. -Okay.

And always loved our chats.

One of the things he said to me was that

the best man-to-man defenses feel like a zone,

and the best zones feel like a man-to-man.

I think that's never been truer than right now.

Whether it's the three, two, we've seen Cleveland play or--

-Put Kobe at the top. -Kobe at the top,

or some of the other zones we've seen come in here.

Or just these hybrid man zones where like I feel at times,

Denver's just putting a floater

towards the middle of the floor so Shai doesn't have space.

[LeBron] Yeah, we were doing-- It looked like zone--

[Steve] Bringing guys out in the corner. You still have your matchup,

but you're saying go ahead and throw it there.

We'll be high hands. We'll make you throw up.

We'll stun and get back. We're seeing more of that.

[LeBron] Miami's notorious all year round.

-Spo is always-- -Damn good with his own.

I think that's a great point

'cause I think I see zone becoming a part of it.

It's a little bit like we're playing pick-on.

Now we're getting to spacing. What's our spacing package?

Then teams got really clever about the spacing, so we start cutting.

Now you're seeing teams cutting from the baseline

or cutting from the slot, whatever it may be.

So I think the next iteration may be not just

throwing in some zone or some man-zone hybrid,

but also multiple zones, right?

So, if we're playing a three-two out high

to take it out of the initiator's hand,

why would they put the initiator is in the corner against zone?

Now he's throwing to the top and attacking the center,

who's got to run to the corner.

So I think then they're gonna have…

We're gonna start seeing teams evolve and play multiple zones or two-looks.

What's your thoughts on this whole zone-man?

It's become a bigger part of what we're doing.

Whether it's the pack-the-paint teams

that look like zone in the gap shrinking the floor,

-or they're actually playing zone. -Well, I mean, the whole nuance

and the whole mind behind playing zone early on was to just break the rhythm.

[Steve] Mm hmm. Right. Different look.

[LeBron] They're in too great of a rhythm versus the man.

We're trying everything we can do,

as far as pick-and-roll coverage, iso coverage,

all these coverages, and they just have a rhythm.

So the best thing to do, okay, just drop it into a zone,

break the rhythm, you can get 'em outta this action,

or just, it's not even about the action,

when you come down and you see a zone,

the mind now you're starting to like--

[both] Think instead of move.

-Yeah. -It doesn't become,

instead of just going and reacting to whatever happens,

now it becomes a thinking game.

And we know that all five guys on the floor,

the thinking game is not suitable for them.

-Right, right. -You know, so,

I think it's a great piece to have in your package

to be able to go to something

where you can just change the momentum,

change the landscape of what it looks like out on the floor.

And that could be like you said, a three-two.

You look at Cleveland, having the Defensive Player Of The Year,

Mobley, at the top of the key.

[Steve] Seven foot.

[LeBron] He's seven foot with all that long wingspan

to be able to change that.

Miami does that sometimes with Bam at the top.

You know, I think it just changes the landscape of teams

and, you know, it's great. Or just having a roamer, like you said.

You have Denver being able to just--

Shai brings in a lot of pick-and-rolls

and wants to get maybe Christian Braun off of him

or Russ off of him or whatever the case may be.

But then those guys roll out,

and Russ or Chris just stay right there.

[both] Stand in the middle of the floor.

And I'm talking to you, "Send him right."

Or I'm on the other side, "Send him left. I'm right here."

You know, I just think it's really chess.

-[Steve] Yeah. -Especially right now.

I know your sets.

-You know my sets. -[Steve] Right.

I know your personnel. You know my personnel.

I know what you like to do, the cons, the pros.

I know if you heavy going right.

I know if you heavy going left.

I know if you come to a two-foot jump stop at the lane,

which way you like to pivot.

I know if you drive baseline, how you like…

All of that stuff, when it comes to guys like myself,

when it comes to guys like yourself,

everything is dialed in.

So, I think coaches with the zone is just trying

to make you just come down the court and just be like…

And that's all you need. It's all you need.

Conversely, I think it's trending a little more.

Like we're gonna see more zones or see more that hybrid zone.

But…

I think we're gonna see more of it. I think we're seeing more variance in it,

but I don't think we're gonna see someone always play zone.

Because back to your initial point, we get too comfortable.

People understand it, they figure it out, it's over.

But do you think there's gonna be more zone looks,

more multiple zones from teams?

Listen, what's the one thing we talked about

earlier in this conversation? Our league is a copycat league.

Right.

And if a team that is historically not good

in man-to-man defense,

then it's something that will be introduced.

I think more teams are practicing it.

I can say that I believe more teams are practicing it,

even if they never show it in a game.

-Thinking about it. -But they're thinking about it.

And I would say that I could see it happening more

over the next few years, more teams coming out.

Like you play Miami, they will literally start the game

and fall right into a zone.

And they just making you think, and they're very active in their zone.

They have great principles. You can tell they work on it.

But more importantly, they just trying to make you think,

instead of just read and reacting.

They want you to think about what you want to do,

who you put, guys, in wise positions and places.

Because it's led to this in a way

because switching defense essentially is not far from a zone.

-It's not. -It's not.

You're gonna switch everything in a zone anyways.

So once you start switching and teams get kind of

one-dimensional, we're just bringing up the weakest defender

and you're switching that, and then what?

Now they got the matchup they want, but guess what?

-We're gonna zone this up. -You still have the dribble drive,

you still have the punch the gaps.

-Flood. -You got the flood.

It's a zone.

Peyton is a zone just in the low post.

All those type of things is still a zone.

And I think more teams will definitely…

-Well, why not? -Right. Exactly.

There's no reason for you not to have that in your package.

The game comes to win and losing.

It's one of those things like offense.

We run this play, let's run it to death if it's working.

But at minimum, it's a change-up, like you said.

So I think there's gonna be more risk taken,

because at minimum, you can get out of it,

and you tried to throw something in there,

in their mind and make them think.

At maximum, you found something.

But I think teams are gonna try different things,

because we've already trended that way, I think, in so many different…

'Cause you gotta fit to your personnel.

You gotta fit to your match-ups, too. Yeah.

I remember seeing Spo in the bubble play some zones

where he hid the weakest, the smallest defenders in the corners.

He had two athletes up top, and he forced the ball into the middle.

Bam's kinda sitting in the middle, like just under the nail.

Just making up random stuff where now you are controlling.

You're not reacting, you're controlling.

Obviously, he's been great at innovating and doing different things,

but I think those types of things where you say, "Hey, look,

we can't do nothing with this, but we could force them

-to play this way--" -We can control that.

Right. And control this.

I'm interested to see how much more of that we see in these playoffs.

But it's also fun to see teams take risks

because the lead, not just the initiators are so great,

but also teams are so used to playing that way,

that now you make him get rid of it early to someone.

Now, do I play, or do I wait and try to get it back to him?

Or do I try to get back to--

You stop teams in their tracks a bit or just throwing off their rhythms

has been effective.

There were some moments, I think it was Ant,

that was just shoving you in the--

-Oh, my goodness. -In your first round series.

It's interesting, because we love physicality.

Where's the line sometimes, and where…

That's the one part that is difficult to understand.

Certain matchups…

Also, it's difficult to referee people like you, Nicola.

'Cause you're so physical that sometimes,

like, ah, he can handle it.

-Yeah. -How do you--

I mean, if that's how we're gonna play,

and that's how we're gonna allow it to be played,

then I don't mind it.

I don't mind it. Now, it needs to be that on both ends.

It needs to be that on both ends.

It was never explained to me.

Like, I'm trying to run down the court,

and Ant is giving me the two-hand…

I'm beyond five yards.

If this is the NFL, that would still be a penalty.

I'm beyond five yards in my route running.

But it was fun. It was competitive.

You definitely wondering like, okay.

To your point like, okay, what line are we crossing?

Or is there not a line at all?

'Cause then you go through the lane,

and a guy does like this,

and you dealt like this and it-- [whistles]

But, we're in an open court at half-court,

and he's doing like this or anybody doing that,

and they don't call it.

So it's like, where's the line being drawn?

But, yeah, the physicality, I mean, we preached on that.

Like, it's different.

You know you're not getting away with that at all.

It's 0% chance you're getting away

with any of that in the regular season.

In the playoffs, there's a possible chance you can,

and let's try it and see what happens.

And the same could go for you when,

I'm thinking was there anybody for you,

when the postseason started, you knew,

"Oh, shit, there's gonna be a totally different feeling in the regular season."

They're gonna try to get more physical and create an advantage.

Sometimes, when you're talking

about the line and not knowing where it is,

you just gotta ride it. You can't get frustrated.

I remember Bruce Bowen kneeing me in the balls out by center.

Like, "What?" And the refs are like, "Play."

And you know that kind of stuff like that

where you're like, "What's the line here?"

Or you got the ball outta the center,

and it just whacking your hand, your off arm.

Just literally whacking it. The refs are like, "Play.

It's not affecting you."

And it's like, "Okay," but what does that lead to?

So I think sometimes, I respect it.

Get away with what you can get away with.

Ant tryna slow you down, throw you off, maybe just frustrate you.

Whatever his goal-- like, I love that.

People trying to play the game give themselves advantage to win.

But it is funny in the playoffs.

So sometimes you're like, in what world

is that a legal basketball play?

Yeah. Right. [laughs]

And then on the other hand, I think it frustrates me

sometimes how we wanna micro-investigate scenarios,

and maybe it's 'cause it's Draymond.

But sometimes, there was a play where,

I can't remember who it was, but he went over top

of someone on the floor in Houston.

I can't remember who it was, but it was,

and his foot dragged and kind of caught him

on the neck or something on the way down.

I know people can make the argument

that Draymond knows what he's doing.

But on the other hand, I'm also like, "It didn't hurt."

Get up. Take the ball out of bounds.

-Right. Take the ball. -Instead of,

forensically looking at the Zapruder film

and try to figure out who's--

It goes back to the, I don't know--

I know this is kind of off-topic,

but it was a piece of camerawork in the postseason

of our game in Minnesota that I have never seen

-in my fucking life. -The eye-in-the-sky cam.

Yeah. I didn't know that existed.

You're talking about the eye in the sky.

The strip on Ant.

I've never seen that computer work

-in my life. -It's interesting.

I would love to know if they took all the usual cameras,

which I'm sure there's like 20, and could find the foul.

Where the fuck did that camera come from?

I've never seen it. Also, it didn't look like it was in HD.

It was like a--

-It was like some forensic-type shit. -2006 GoPro.

I was like, "What the fuck is this?"

-Right. -Oh, my goodness.

That was interesting. But that's the one part. And I get it.

It's difficult, but some of this forensic deep dive stuff.

Like, the example the other night with Mathurin.

Now, he punched him, I guess, but it didn't look--

Maybe it was a closed fist, but he didn't swing.

Yeah. But who knows if it was like a little jab.

Well, that mean Lance Stephenson should have been kicked

outta every game that he played in in the 2011-12 playoffs.

-The shit that… -Like I mean…

There's the thing, it's like kinda--

I love you, Born Ready, by the way.

But you were outta your mind.

But it's kind of like semantics,

where he literally went like this.

And we were like, that's it. He's kicked outta the game.

Whereas someone could like line someone up

and throw a shoulder through them

as fast as they can from 10 yards away,

and it's like, "But that's more of a basketball move."

-You know what I mean? -I know exactly what you mean.

Take it out. Let's keep playing.

And I know there's a thing about escalating,

but I think it almost makes things escalate more, because now it's personal.

We're talking about it. We've micromanaged the situation.

-So sometimes, I get frustrated. -[Lebron] I agree.

We let stuff go in a game, and then it's this one little thing happens

and it's like, "We gotta get this right," and the world disagrees.

Now we're talking about something that did not need to be a thing.

And that's when this start. Everybody's like… [grunts]

-This is like-- -Take it out on the side.

Let's keep playing.

[relaxed music]

No team's ever come back from a 3-0 deficit,

but I actually almost had that experience.

I was playing in Dallas. We went 3-0 up on Portland

in the playoffs and had to win game seven at home to win the series.

So, like, that was an example of, like, momentum…

-Yeah. -…completely flipping.

You know, fortunately, in the NBA, it's hard to win four in a row,

especially if you're a team that is good enough to win three in a row.

But that feeling of the other team

now having belief, confidence, you know,

you go from like beating 'em three in a row

and thinking this is a matter of time.

They might get one to, all of a sudden, they get one,

they get two, now your backs are like against the wall.

They get three, and they're feeling like they're gonna do this.

They're gonna be the first to do this.

And the power that they feel is what creates the momentum.

And conversely, as a team that's under that avalanche,

you're trying to pick the pieces up.

Like, hold on, let's grab onto some solid footing here.

Let's reset, let's find our identity again and keep things simple,

and try to win a basketball game, 'cause we haven't been able to for a week.

So I do think those experiences show that, like,

on the floor, momentum is a real thing.

You've had a famous 3-1 comeback.

We came back down 3-1 with the Suns against the Lakers.

-Against the Lakers. Yeah. -Yep.

Which was a wild series.

But, like, give me your take.

That was, gotta be the most famous 3-1.

Yeah. Absolutely. You know, like, before we even,

to get to the 2016 3-1 comeback, like,

in 2015, in the finals when Kyrie and Kevin was hurt,

we went up 2-1 in that series in the finals.

And, you know, the momentum of, like, feeling that feeling

of being up 2-1 and two games away from

winning a championship was like, "Oh shit."

-I don't know what that's like. -[Lebron laughing]

We can do this.

Like, you had that feeling like, "We can do this."

And then we lose three straight.

Yeah.

You know, and in game four, you,

they, this is when Draymond started at the five

and Iguodala started at the four,

and it changed the whole landscape…

-Yeah. -…of the game.

You started, they play with more pace, more speed.

You know, they tie it up 2-2, and, like, the momentum.

You could-- we didn't have the ability

to kind of change what we wanted to do, and they did.

They had something in they back pocket

that we didn't know that existed.

Did you ever go to the five defensively in that series?

Not in, I don't think in 2015 I did.

I would have to go back and look.

But I think they caught us off guard and rode that wave.

And remind me, did Kevin and Ky start the series?

Kyrie was out.

Kyrie got hurt game one in overtime,

and Kevin got hurt in the second round,

I believe verse Boston, separated shoulder, was out.

Right. Right.

I mean that's impressive right there to be up 2-1.

-Yes. -Right?

Yes.

But also shows, like… they went to the future.

They went to the future. They did.

That was, like, the first. We played small with Amar'e at the five.

But they went super small and maybe had more depth.

Guys like Iguodala, Livingston make more plays.

But it's interesting in series when a team finds something.

Yeah, and they found something, man.

And it just, you know, they found something

that was able to go three straight.

They went in 4-2, and it was like,

you felt the momentum just shift in that game four.

Like, they found something.

It was something that we couldn't,

we was here, they was here,

and we got to this going up 2-1,

and then they found something that went here.

And it was like we couldn't get there.

Couldn't reach that level.

We couldn't reach that level.

You know, and to come back to 2016, you know,

being down 3-1, you know, I…

'Cause there's the opposite. Golden State went bigger for stretches that series.

Festus Ezeli played more.

Anderson Varejão played some in that series as well.

Bogut, obviously.

You know, so they did, they went a lot bigger, you know,

at times throughout that series.

You know, and just going down, you know, 3-1

and happening to win a game five, you know,

in Golden State in Oracle.

This is before the new arena, in Oracle,

which is like a madhouse.

You know, you feel like everybody's on top of you.

You know, and, you know, I told the guys

before we left, like I was like, "Listen,

you know, we're gonna win game five.

Like, I can feel it. We're gonna win game five.

I know you guys are upset about losing game four at home,

but whatever you got, just bring it with you to Golden State.

I promise you if we get back to Cleveland for a game six,

there will be a game seven, and I'll take it from there.

Like, I just need y'all to lock in whatever.

I know y'all not gonna have much sleep."

Y'all not gonna sleep after losing game four,

'cause we had our chances, and they just,

they took off on us in game four.

But once we won game five in Golden State, you know,

you win a game like that on the road,

you know how hard it is to win in San Antonio.

-Mm-hmm. -You know, in the postseason.

You know how hard it is to win in certain buildings in that momentum,

when you win in certain buildings in the postseason, you like, oh, man.

"We broke through a new ceiling."

And I think that's the momentum I felt, you know,

when we won game five, you know, in Oracle.

Did you, with Draymond out for game five,

did you guys feel a certain sense of opportunity,

or did you think, "Man, Oracle's just tough to play"?

No, we felt it was even gonna be even tougher,

because role players play better at home.

[Steve] Right.

We knew what Steph and Klay was gonna bring.

But we didn't know, you know, Leandro Barbosa,

-you know, Mo Speights. -[Steve] Yeah.

-Harrison Barnes. -Iggy is another level.

Iggy 'cause, you know, he's,

Iggy is like that Manu Ginobili where, oh yeah,

he's made coming off the bench, but he's a starter.

Yeah, he's closer.

Okay, you can bring him off the bench, but he can start on any team…

-Sure. -…because of what he brings.

So, you know these guys are gonna play better on the road.

So it was like, we need to lock in even more,

because, you know, some guys just don't play, you know,

road players sometimes get intimidated by road crowds.

You guys went smaller there, though, in that series, didn't you?

-Yeah, we went smaller. -Smaller in that series.

Yeah. We played a lot with me and RJ.

-Yep. -And Kyrie, Swish, and Shump.

You know, and Ordelli you know, at times.

Kev was great for us at game five,

but throughout the series, he wasn't always great.

Didn't always have the same impact.

Yeah.

But I thought Richard, RJ, had an important role in that series.

He had a huge role.

As someone-- I was consulting for the Warriors at the time.

I thought his energy, his will, you know,

him running the floor, him crashing the offensive glass,

his physicality, I think it bridged the gap for you guys a lot at times.

-Tristan was great for us. -[Steve] Tristan, you know,

and being able to guard different positions.

-Offensive rebounds. -Offensive rebounds.

Catch the lob, catch it in the pocket. Yeah.

Yeah, but that was fascinating series.

And it's so interesting to think though, like,

it felt like after game three, you know,

I know Draymond getting injured can also play

a role in flipping the momentum. It felt like they were the better team.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -And then you guys just spun that.

How much did game five, like you said you felt like you went to a new level,

did that affect the way you played in game seven?

'Cause you'd already beat them at home.

Yeah, we beat 'em at--

So, we beat 'em at home in game six, which was…

-But you won game five in Oracle. -Yeah, in Oracle.

You go home and win, you come back in game seven.

Did game five give you guys a ton of belief, or was it just…

-Yeah. -…its own entity?

I think my guys just,

what I told them before we boarded a plane

to go to the Bay going to game five,

once what happened in game five happened,

my guys believed that what I was saying…

-[Steve] Right. -…can come true now.

-Was fucking coming true. -[Steve] Right.

Y'all get me back to game six,

we'll come back here for game seven.

So it almost felt like destiny now to the guys.

-Yeah, for sure. -We're meant to win this now.

Yeah, it was like… nothing is stopping us.

There's clips out there, me in the locker room saying that they're messed up

and things of that nature. We got 'em, we right.

You know, like, I just felt like we,

they, I mean, they were the better team.

Mm.

I just think we just, it's the momentum wave.

We hit a momentum pock and, shit,

they couldn't, there's nothing they could do about it.

There's nothing they could do about it once we got to that point.

They won the most games in NBA history

in the regular season, it was… was 73-9.

-That was the 73-9 team. -[Steve] Amazing.

We, you played against the 72-10 Bulls.

-Correct? -Yeah.

And I watched, yeah, you came in '96.

-Ninety-six. -Yeah, that was '98 when they did that.

-So you played against that team. -Yeah.

And I played against the 73-9 Warriors.

Gotta make it special.

You know, the team, usually, the best team wins.

Usually, the best team wins. When the, you know,

a team like that loses, you know, those gotta be the most rewarding ones.

How do you equate that to the Miami teams?

You know, those two Spur series in particular?

Oh. Oh shit, I came back.

That was another comeback, huh?

Yeah. What was the momentum swing in that one?

The momentum swing in that one is being down 3-2,

headed into a fourth quarter at home.

I literally told myself, if you don't make

every play this quarter,

we're going to lose.

Offensively and defensively, we're going to lose, and--

So not your normal, your normal self,

you feel like you're gonna make it a lot of plays.

Now you're saying, "I cannot make a mistake."

I cannot make a mistake.

I have to be involved in every play offensively,

defensively, flying around, steals, blocks,

making plays offensively, assists,

putting the ball in the basket.

That was just the mindset, like, that momentum of myself.

It wasn't even a team momentum. It was like, if you don't do it,

this is the moment where you can't rely on anyone else.

I just, I had that mindset.

In order for it to go to a game seven, you know,

all the way to the point where it was like,

the only time I had doubt is when, you know,

I don't know exactly the score,

but what pissed me off, and I had a little bit of self-doubt,

and also it pissed me off at the same time,

is when the NBA personnel brought the yellow rope out

on the court, and the game wasn't over yet.

Right.

There was a moment where I looked

to their bench, and they were all like arms locked.

-Getting ready to celebrate. -Getting ready to celebrate.

And there was a moment I looked at NBA personnel

and they was bringing the ropes out on our home court,

and it pissed me off.

I was like, "I don't know how this is gonna happen,

but we about to make this happen."

I thought I was gonna make the shot.

Ray Allen did it, but I took two of them.

Yeah.

You know, I took two to cut the lead at one point.

I think, if I re-watched it, I think they went to the line,

missed a couple free throws or whatever

and allowed us to come back in,

and, you know, obviously, we missed, I missed the three.

Chris Bosch got the offensive rebound.

We all know the play, and kicks it to Ray,

and Ray makes the shot.

I thought I would be the guy that, I'm envisioning making that shot.

I built myself up to that.

But, yeah, seeing those yellow ropes,

you know, because my whole life is like,

the game is not over until it's zeros on the clock.

And that was just super disrespectful.

You took that personal.

Yeah, I did.

That's how we end it.

[Steve laughing]

[rhythmic music]

Oh, my goodness.

Everything looks worse in slow-motion.

-Oh, it's not the same. -Why do you think it's used in movies?

What the f...

That's a serious name.

I've never seen that in my NBA career.

That was the most unbelievable camera I've ever seen.

They don't use it, 'cause there's already 27 cameras on an NBA broadcast,

so they don't need it.

And then one time, they pull it outta the back pocket.

-[Jason] I think it's because of… -Because it's me.

They was like, "Oh, shit. LeBron did it.

Get the fucking Falcon out!"

[everyone laughing]

"We 'bout to introduce that shit right now.

LeBron's involved. We know somebody gonna talk about this."