Original subtitles

[Jason] All right.

Ooh, wow.

[paper rustling]

[bystanders chattering]

[LeBron] Chambertin.

-[bottle thudding] -[paper rustling]

[LeBron] Right here, these two. The Mussini or the Chambertin?

Just a little sip... I ain't even ate yet today.

Mm, me, either. [laughs] We rolling.

[mellow jazzy music]

[mellow jazzy music continues]

Welcome back to Mind the Game,

brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondery.

In this episode, we discuss the playmaker, the initiator,

the heliocentric player that runs the team,

breaks the first line of defense, plays cat and mouse.

In this era, they have to be able to make plays

for their teammates, not just score, and vice versa.

In the old days, it was the point guard that ran the team,

but wasn't necessarily taxed with scoring the ball.

Nowadays, we've all become a similar position player

that's able to control the game

and make plays, whether it's for others or for themselves.

Hope you enjoy this episode of Mind the Game.

Please like, comment, and subscribe.

[mellow jazzy music]

Well, first, how's the knee?

-Did you see me limp in here? -[both laughing]

You know, thought I'd ask.

Oh, man. Like I said, last, last, episode, man,

it's been a hell of a lot better.

-But it's getting better, though. -[Steve] Yeah.

Last time we spoke, I was, you know...

-But you know, it's getting better. -[Steve] Yeah.

So, we also spoke about your offseason,

how like that starts the cycle again

for next year, you know...

So you don't really take time off, you just do other things.

-Right. -You take a little bit off.

So how do you keep yourself, your mind, your body active

and busy when dealing with that?

Yeah. I mean, and that's the most challenging thing.

And you know, even though I can't, like, do much

as far as like lower body stuff, I'm still in the weight room.

-[Steve] Still get it in. -Still get it in, upper body.

The one thing I am able to do a little bit is ride a stationary bike.

Just to kind of keep the blood flowing

and things of that nature, keep the momentum,

you know, the flexibility as much as possible.

-[Steve] In the knee. -You know, in the knee.

But it's definitely...

I'm not a guy that likes to sit around.

-I'm the same. -You know, I have a lot of energy,

and I hate sitting around.

So this has definitely been almost two weeks.

After the season, they always tell you, take time off.

I'm just not that guy.

-Stir crazy. -Yeah, I'm going crazy, for sure.

I'm the same. I'm the same.

What's that like for you? Like for me, I'm anxious.

-Yeah. -If I can't get a sweat.

What's your day like if you're like,

"I don't know when I'm fitting my workout in?"

Right, it's just the same.

I mean, it's just something that's so abnormal.

You know, when it comes to just not being able to work out

and not being able to sweat, you know, and things of that nature.

So I guess you make up for it by getting in the steam room.

You know, get in the sauna, you know, sit outside.

-Sit outside. -You know,

I can mess around a little bit with my daughter, you know.

So that definitely helps,

just try to stay active in some way, shape, or form.

You get in the pool at all?

You know what, I don't spend much time in the pool,

but it's something I think I should.

[Steve] Same. I don't, either, but it's great for you.

It's definitely great for it. it takes the all pressure off of you.

-Unloads the joints. -Yeah, unloads all the joints

and things of that nature.

So, you know, my daughter is a big pool girl.

Yeah.

So that definitely is a reason for me to get in it...

-That's cool. -...and mess around with her.

Well, these playoffs have been amazing.

Yes, they have.

Second round, I believe, the first six games,

the road team won.

-Is that the first time? -[Steve] I think it is.

-Has to be the first time in NBA history. -Yeah, first time.

I think one time, like in '80 or '81, the road team won 49%

of games in the playoffs.

But typically, you know,

that's something that's changing,

I think with three-point variants and we can get into that.

But I thought one of the things that we may wanna touch on

before we get into the bulk of this episode or discussion

is some of these role players stepping up.

You know, we've seen Mikal Bridges

make some big defensive plays.

We've seen, you know, Hart for the Knicks just bring that energy,

kind of do everything on the floor.

Caruso recently had big moments.

Yep, Nembhard, Nesmith.

Nembhard, Nesmith, Christian Braun.

Yeah.

Buddy Hield stepped up.

Talk a little bit about like role players

and how important it is for them

to have their moments, one, moments in time,

but also, just that relentless competitive nature

from your supporting act.

I mean, we both know that in order for you

to have success in our league, the role players have

to play a huge role.

-Is that right? -They have

to be able to star in their role

and be super confident in that role.

They're not trying to be the star player.

They're not trying to go outside of what they do.

They know exactly what their objective is,

and they go do it by a T, you know.

And you know, the people that we just named,

you know, so far in the postseason,

they've literally just been doing their job,

and it's the reason why they've had some success.

You know, you look at Indiana

at this point right now, you know, up three-one

versus Cleveland, has a lot to do with their role players,

and yes, we've seen the big-time shot by Haliburton.

You know, we've seen the big-time, you know, shots

by Pascal Siakam,

you know, but those role player guys,

the Nembhard, the Nesmith,

you know, those guys, you know, T.J. McConnell,

those guys have been coming in and just...

They haven't let the spark go down.

When the guys come in off the bench

and those role players come on off the bench,

or those star players go to the bench, those guys just keep it going.

That's why the success has happened.

You can't win without their efforts, their contributions.

Absolutely not.

There's too many pockets in games, too many things happen.

It was interesting thinking last night,

what was it, game four, OKC-Denver.

There was a period where it was both benches

that were carrying that game, making threes,

making plays, getting stops.

They played Friday night,

Sunday, lunchtime, legs were tired.

-That's rough. -You need guys

to step up and make plays, right?

Absolutely.

'Cause I mean, you know, you being a star player,

you know, I've had my moments as a star player.

[Steve chuckling]

You know, the bulk

of the responsibility is gonna be on us, you know?

And that's from you know, a game-plan situation

from a mindset, from holding everybody accountable

to getting everybody,

making sure everybody's in the right position

and things of that nature.

And it's taxing, especially in a postseason game,

you're gonna have four

or five guys matched up against you

-from, you know, bigger guys, taller guys. -Sure.

Smaller guys that wanna just get up underneath you, you know,

and it could be taxing.

And like you said, having a Friday night game

and then going to a Saturday afternoon game,

less than 48 hours, that's when those role players--

Yeah.

They come in with that energy, you know, maybe the guy

that didn't play as much Friday night,

now you give him those minutes, you know,

that Saturday afternoon

and you get that spark, you know, that the team needed

and yeah, that's what it's about.

Yeah, I always say, too,

I might have said it on our show here,

but, you know, leadership, hierarchy, and buy-in,

and, like, every round of the playoffs,

you see that on every team becoming clearer and clearer.

Obviously, teams go up and down.

Cleveland's in a bad moment, some injuries.

-[LeBron] Yep. -Kind of outta rhythm.

Indiana's like flying,

so you get different variants within there,

but just that leadership, hierarchy, buy-in,

and that is where the role players really thrive

when they understand, they buy-in.

We know who the leader is or the stars,

we know that everyone believes in the coach

and has buy-in on their staff, but it's that hierarchy, right,

that becomes so important, the kind of ties,

that allows you to weather tough nights

or bad moments in a series, 'cause it's always gonna come.

Right.

The league's too good to just cruise through.

It's always fascinating to see every round,

how that kind of gets more and more streamlined

and you see the identity of teams.

You could look at some

of, you know, the best championship runs,

even some of the best finals' moments,

has come from guys being stars in their roles.

You know, all the shots Big Shot Bob made,

you know, the shots Derek Fisher made...

Steve Kerr.

Yeah, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, you know, Ray Allen.

I was a part of that one, you know.

And those guys were like...

When you talk about guys being stars in their role to a T,

you know, those guys, make big plays

and the best thing about it, they don't ever jump outside

of what they are and who they are

and what they commit to the team, you know,

and, you know, we've had some great moments

throughout NBA history from some of the greatest guys

that just literally just started their role

-at that particular time. -Yeah, for sure.

[mellow jazzy music]

Let me flip it to the other side of this whole thing,

and that's the star players, all right.

So we talked about Anthony Edwards

and the step he took as a playmaker.

But let's take this all the way back,

you know, now we have this,

what you call the heliocentric player.

The initiator.

When I grew up, you know, long time ago,

when I started playing this game

in the late '80s, started late,

but when I started playing, you were taught

to be a true point guard.

-Yeah. -Run your team.

Yeah.

Make your teammates better,

shoot less but make 'em... make a high percentage...

shoot when you're open, make plays when it counts.

You know, and conversely, the scores in the '80s

and '90s, they weren't asked to pass the ball.

-At all. -Right? They were asked to score,

and I have some numbers here.

So in '95, top 10 scores in the NBA,

only one averaged over five assists,

I think it was MJ.

-Mm-hmm. -But think about

-that one assist, you know-- -'95, Okay.

In 1995, same year, top ten assists in the league,

top ten guys in assist,

only five averaged over fifteen points a game, right?

So like, there's a discrepancy between points and assists.

You go to '05 top 10 scores,

five averaged over five assists.

So it went from one to five, you know,

and then eight of the top ten assist guys averaged

over 15 points.

In 2015, the top ten scorers,

six averaged over five assists,

and then the top 10 assist guys, nine averaged over 15 points.

Go to 2025, you know,

you got, of the top ten scorers, eight averaged over five assists.

So pretty much everybody averaged over five assists.

And the top 10 assist guys, eight averaged over 15 points.

Point guards weren't taught 30, 40 years ago, to score the ball.

They were taught to run the team. Scorers weren't taught to pass.

Like, let's get him a shot, let's run 'em off screens,

let's get 'em in the post.

And back then, it was three out to win.

You had a power forward that played on the block.

You had a center that played around the basket.

Then the rules changed.

We went to, you know, illegal D and hand-checking rules changed,

which led to pace and space.

You know, spacing went from two bigs to one.

Played a lot more off the elbow,

a lot more of that wing, mid-post, ISO game

to try to space the floor.

Then we went to spread pick-and-roll,

where guys are getting downhill.

The play is in front of them now.

In the old days, when I came in the league, we'd throw to the post.

Two guys were lifted in the parking lot,

'cause of illegal defense rules.

If you wanted to double, you're not always gonna make a play outta of that,

'cause you're gonna throw it. It's gonna go around the horn.

Someone's gonna get an assist, but not the playmaker.

Now that everyone's spreading the floor, getting downhill,

I think it's made a difference.

Add to that, we've recognized the value of shooting.

So the floor is loaded...

I don't know if you've ever seen some of these clips

of, like, the Suns-Bulls finals, where like, you know,

guy comes off a screen,

and he runs the 17 feet,

not the three, catches the shooter, doesn't shoot,

and then is two guys are fighting

for post position on the same team.

He throws in the post, everyone's inside of it,

so spacing's totally changed.

That creates space. Having more space.

And then playing faster against unsettled defenses.

So the analytics revolution, right?

We recognize now that scoring

in the first six to eight seconds of the shot clock,

or every six to eight seconds of the shot clock,

your points for possession, your efficiency goes down, right.

There's more possessions, but also, your efficiency is high

when you're playing against an unsettled defense.

So, the game's changed in all these ways.

You know, one of the other things is,

in order to combat these great players,

we started switching everything. We wanted to take actions away.

Now we look at the playoffs and everything's a pick-on game.

Other than maybe Denver and Golden State.

But the pick-on game is because they're switching everything.

So why run a bunch of actions if they switch?

You bring the guy that you wanna be in it and go from there.

Bring up the guy. Okay. And now it's about spacing.

So all these factors have led us into a place

where you need the lead guy

not only to handle the ball, bring it up the court,

you even see Joker bring the ball at the court at seven feet.

Yourself, you basically played point guard your whole career.

So whoever's that playmaker,

that decision-maker is the first line of attack who can attack early.

And now you have to be able to play cat and mouse.

I think one of the things the casual fan has to understand,

it looks random, it looks pick-on,

but the spacing, the angles, the opportunities,

it's very nuanced, because the defenses

have gotten so sophisticated.

-Yeah, absolutely. -When in your career...

'cause I think you naturally... you want to pass.

You know, you just physically can score the ball

with your skill and physical ability.

But you want to play make.

When did you see the game,

and when did you kind of find a comfort in that?

When did you see the game as far as--

Guys start to shift, where they had to make the play as well.

I mean, obviously, I came in in '03

where there was still two bigs on the block.

You still had teams with two bigs on the block,

and there was not a lot of space out there.

And for the first few months of my rookie season,

I did start at point guard.

You know, I started at point guard alongside, you know,

Ricky Davis was our two-guard.

Darius Miles, Carlos Boozer, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas,

and I was the point guard.

So, you know, I knew that,

you know, coming in, that I always have to get guys shots.

Because like, I mean, you said it.

You said it, like you said, in the '95 season, there was one guy

that was in the top ten scoring

the average over five assists, and that was MJ.

And you know, I always looked... I always thought to myself

when I was growing up just watching basketball,

his name was the shooting guard,

because he was the one that was shooting the ball.

-Shooting the ball, right? -You know, and,

the point guard, you know, when you watch it,

me and my guys always talk about like,

when you're growing up watching the game,

there was literally only maybe two guys

ever bringing the ball up.

And that was the starting point guard

and the backup point guard.

There was not many guys bringing the ball up.

You know, if you watch some of the, you know, '80s games

and even some of the early '90s games,

like if you watch the Knicks, you know, when they have,

you know, Mark Jackson, you know...

John Starks never brought the ball up,

You know, Pat Ewing ain't never got a rebound

and busted out on the break.

Even when Mark went to Indiana,

Reggie never really brought the ball up.

You know, and obviously, Rik Smits

and Dale Davis, those guys didn't bust out on the break.

You had those guys, it was the point guard.

He brings the ball up, he gets everybody involved.

He knows where guys should be, how they should move.

He knows the system by a T.

And then the game started to shift.

Obviously, I think, you know,

you had guys like Grant Hill and Scottie Pippen,

you know, Toni Kukoč.

You know, you had these bigger, longer wings--

-Point forwards. -That point forwards,

you know, that started to change the game,

you know, but it was still minute.

Even in the '90s, it was not many guys.

There was outliers, you know.

But then you started to have like, you know,

the early 2000s,

and then when I started coming to the league,

you had the Tracy McGrady's, you know,

Kobe would bust-out.

Once I moved, you know, over and started playing the wing

then, you know, I started to be more of a point forward,

And the game started to shift,

I believe, you know, probably, late teens.

Obviously, what you guys doing in Phoenix,

you guys had multiple bust-out guys.

You know, Trix would,

get the rebound and bust it out.

And if you were ahead, he would throw it up ahead to you.

Joe Johnson, you know,

could be in a six-six wing, you know, but could bust out.

And the game just started to shift.

And the way you guys played, you know,

the way at times that San Antonio played

when they decided that Timmy was just gonna be the five.

-Yeah. -Then they started to realize,

"Okay, we need to create more space for Timmy."

And then that's when you had Tony, Manu,

Michael Finley at the time.

You know, they brought in McDyess, you know,

to give him more space.

The game started to change then, I would say, late in the teens.

And... you know our league.

-It's a copycat league. -Sure.

One team doing something with success?

Okay, then, you know, everybody starts to see

if they have that one player

where now we can surround him with space.

And the game started to shift to... like you said, in 2025,

now there's eight guys outta the top ten scoring

with five assists per game or more.

You know, because now--

And by the way, it's not five now.

-All of 'em are six, seven, eight. -Yeah, exactly.

And just comes from, now, the responsibility

of the main player

and the responsibility of the guy that handles the ball.

Not only are you responsible for scoring

and putting us into action, you're also responsible

for getting guys involved, as well,

because the defense is gonna attract--

there's a lot of double teaming

before you even get into the action.

You know, guys come across half-court.

Guy's will double team Steph Curry as soon as he crosses half-court.

We're not waiting for Draymond to come up into the pick-and-roll.

We're gonna try to get the ball out your hands now.

You start hunting defensively,

where Anthony Edwards sees a matchup he knows he's gonna hunt.

I want this guy in the pick-and-roll.

And teams say, "We know you're gonna switch,

and then we're gonna fire.

Get the ball outta your hands."

Now you have to be able to make a decision to make a play.

Our game has definitely changed a lot.

But you know, it's not, like you said,

to the normal fan, it's not random.

-It is not random. -Or it's random with a purpose.

-With a purpose. Right, yes. -Principles.

And sometimes it looks a little chaos

or a little chaotic at time,

but it is definitely purposeful, you know,

basketball when it comes to the way the game is played now,

obviously in 2025 compared to 1995.

It's the positionless there.

Where positions are not what they used to be.

Like you said, the point guard, the two-guard, you know.

It's positionless basketball,

and that can take on different looks.

Right, like you said, you know,

maybe a team plays without a center.

Maybe your best players, Nikola Jokić,

he's bringing the ball up the court sometimes.

But what it's done is, is we've now created rosters

with shooting to create space for the creator,

and then the creator has to be the one

to knock the first domino down.

So you're seeing guys that aren't necessarily

"traditional point guards" get the ball in their hands,

go try to break the first line of defense,

'cause they have space, puts defense in a bind.

So, defense have to get clever. Like you said,

are they firing, hitting, getting the ball out of his hands.

Are they going to a soft zone? Whatever it is that they're doing,

they gotta make that decision.

Because you want them to have the ball

to try to go early when the defense is not set.

At the same time,

when they junk it up, they gotta be able to read and react.

And it's like a fine line or whatever the case may be.

'Cause you look at a guy like Allen Iverson,

who's six-foot, 6'1," if I wanna be generous--

-Maybe. -You know, a buck 80,

you know...

but he came into our league as a flat-out scorer, you know?

But if it was the '80s or '90s,

it would've automatically been he's the point guard.

That is your body type. That is what you look like.

And they even tried it early on when he got to the Sixers,

you know, Jerry Stackhouse was there still,

I believe Derrick Coleman was there still.

You're the point guard.

You're six-foot, 180. You're point guard.

-You handle the ball, you bring it up. -Yeah. And then you, at one point

throughout his rookie year,

he goes five straight games with 40 points.

Like, "Oh, shit, he's not the fucking point guard.

This guy's a scorer, and we need to bring someone in."

-Eric Snow. -Eric Snow.

But isn't that interesting?

In that era, we went, "Oh, he scored forty, five times.

He's gotta be our two-guard.

In our era, we would be like, "The ball's in his hands."

Ball's in his hands.

It would be Ja Morant. It would be Derrick Rose

when Derrick Rose was at his height.

It's now like, "Okay, put the ball in his hands.

Let's create instant offense.

Quick offense, get into it, and we figure out the rest later."

You know, so the game definitely changed.

It is, and it's fun to see like the different types of playmakers,

-the different types of initiators. -Yeah.

I mean, obviously, one of the kind of cornerstones

is the James Harden player.

And Luka's a little bit like that now,

the way they have the ball, but they're amazing passers.

You were like this, you're just in a way of your own category,

but the guy that can get what they want offensively,

whether it's to make their teammates better

read the defense, manipulate the defense,

or they have the three-ball, both of 'em in the step back,

both have the floater, that player that can almost...

you run everything through them.

So what's happened now, I think,

is we went from having that guy make all the plays, all the decisions.

It's spreading the floor with shooting,

defense is getting a little better.

Now we're asking those shooters

to be able to now play off a closeout.

They now, on the good teams, have to be able

to put it on the floor, try to touch the paint again,

create another closeout, open shot or a two-on-one.

And I think that evolution, I think, is where fans got to really appreciate

what's happening today.

I think sometimes we think it's all too similar,

but sometimes the beauty in it is that it's jazz.

We're making it up as we go along,

we're riffing, but out of principles.

I think that's what's exciting about the game,

that maybe certain common elements

for the fan are difficult to read.

And I think that's where the game has been fun for me

to see it go, is seeing more people play out of principles

than come down, get into a set.

Utah used to run the UCLA stuff.

-Yeah, yeah-- Auto. -Another team used to run the auto stuff.

Different sets, which was cool, too.

But now I love that it's more about reading and reacting

in a random setting out of principles.

Have you noticed a time when...

because I feel like that's been the last four or five years.

It's been like-- And another reason, in a coaching scenario,

you can't take the chance to run a play

and if your lead guy does not have the ball,

him not getting the ball.

So we put the ball in their hand at the start,

we call up the worst defender,

because instead of running a set, everyone switches,

especially off the ball.

Let's put Jalen Brunson in the corner. Let's some run action over here.

Let's get it to him on the weak side.

What if he doesn't get it?

Now you got this third, fourth best player on your team

making the decision in critical times in a playoff game.

So it's interesting to me how quickly the game's evolving,

how defenses are taking a step

and offenses are taking a step

and it's continually cat and mouse between offense and defense.

Have you felt that changing, over the last five, six years?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, obviously, in our league,

when it comes to pace and space, that's number one.

And if you do have any type of action you want to get into,

that's where you want to try to get up the floor fast,

give yourself some more time with the shot clock

to be able to get into the quick action.

But it's not... like you said, it's not the old Utah

where they running autos.

It's not the triangle with Phil Jackson,

where you're hitting the pinch posts

and you got gaggle action on one side and things of that.

No, it's now 77s quick.

Get to a 77, which is a double drag.

Get to it quick. Let's see what they do.

Or it's just a flat screen in the middle. Three guys on the baseline,

you got your best player handling the ball.

You got your second-best player set in the pick-and-roll at the nail

let's see what the defense do.

You're getting into the actions really fast.

And if you wanna get your players, like Joker,

or like you said, or Luka or certain guys

the ball on the low post, then you give 'em a choice action

where the guy brings the ball down, he's on the opposite block.

You got one guy setting the pin-down at the free-throw line.

You got the other guy setting at the opposite block.

And you allow your star player to decide which route he wanna go.

But these are just quick actions, to be able to get to the action

and then allow your star player to have time.

And if he decides, "Hey, I can make a move here

to make myself score or I know that so many eyes are on me,

-I'm gonna attract four eyes..." -[Steve] Pressure.

"...sometimes six eyes... numbers games start."

I know I got three guys.

I know we got a three-on-two on the backside, or a four-on-three.

Sometimes, you got a super-great player,

yo, you got a four-on-two.

You had two guys try to double, so that game is played

every single night in our league

by best players and by the best coaches.

I mean, it's always great to see a coach drop a nice ATO...

-It's beautiful. -...in action.

It's great. But the reality is, in our league,

they're gonna switch so much of that stuff.

It's hard to do on the fly,

and it's not as beneficial as getting up

and playing against an unsettled defense.

-That's the best way to score. -It's the best way to score.

And it's making sure that your lead guy has the ball

and is making the decisions time and time again.

Because that is the pressure

that breaks defenses over and over.

Let's talk about different types of playmakers.

We talked about Anthony Edwards trying to take that next step,

which he is starting to grow in that.

But you see other guys that have had to take that step, too,

like Jayson Tatum, he came in league more as a scorer.

Now he's bringing the ball up the court, often initiating the action,

handling the pick-and-roll. And he's had to grow as a playmaker.

When he breaks the paint for them

and kicks it out with players around him,

that's when they're one of the historically elite teams.

Yeah, they're historically one of the best teams

that the NBA has ever seen.

And they start their blender, the word we've used so much.

And the last thing you want to do as an opponent

versus the Celtics

-is be put in the blender. -Right.

'Cause there's too many guys that can do multiple things.

They have too many guys that can shoot, dribble, and create.

You know...

Jayson Tatum is able to break a guy down one-on-one...

and he gets it to the paint,

and you have X four or X five trap the box,

you gotta understand that his five,

which is Al Horford or Porziņģis,

his ass is not in the dunker.

He's on the three-point line.

And once he skips, now you got rotation

and his closeout game.

Now he's swinging it to Jaylen Brown,

or he's swinging it to Derrick White, or swinging it to Jrue Holiday,

swinging it to Payton Pritchard.

Now the best-- This is the best thing they do.

They get you in a blender,

and they're spraying for threes,

they spraying for threes or getting to the lane

and dunking, which is gonna be Tatum and Brown.

So, I think, Jayson Tatum's growth has allowed them, as well.

Obviously, their personnel is fucking dynamic and great.

We all know that, they got the trade for Porziņģis,

to be able to get Jrue Holiday,

in the fashion they got him, made them even more elite.

I mean, Al Horford coming back

has given them another presence.

-He's so smart. -He's so smart.

I've played against him my whole career or his whole career.

-I'm older than him. -[both chuckling]

He's so smart. So the growth of Tatum and Brown

has just allowed Joe

and his coaching staff to even be even more dynamic,

and when you can have guys that have that growth mindset

to say, "Okay, you know what? In my first four years,

I was really good in this league.

I can ride this wave

and I could probably be a Hall Of Famer, seal.

But I want to continue to grow, and if I continue to grow,

then our team automatically grows."

And I think JT and JB has done it.

[mellow jazzy music]

My only gripe with the Celtics

sometimes is the discipline to get space,

to find angles off the first action,

setups on pick-and-rolls to make sure they're getting downhill,

touching the paint. They're so good, but sometimes, they settle.

You think they get bored sometimes? Like, they been doin' this shit so long.

Like prisoners of their success. They've been in the finals a bunch lately.

They won it. They've had incredible regular seasons.

You know what it's like when you're on successful teams.

It seems like they get bored sometimes with the--

I don't wanna say the process, 'cause-- Shit, they are who they are and they've--

-When you look at Taylor-- -[Steve] They're elite

This is years and years and years and years.

They've punched their 10,000 hours, you know?

But sometimes it seems like they get...

you know what I'm saying, sometimes, they get a little bored,

because of how great they are.

Not only as those two as individuals, but them as a team.

Sometimes, it looks like they get bored but, you know...

Yeah, I feel like that's part of why they got caught

in those first two games against the Knicks.

Up 20, it's easy, in a sense,

and then they stop maybe like the details.

The spacing, going too soon

or not waiting long enough and not getting downhill.

Not touching the paint, settling for longer jump shots.

They're running out the other way. But like...

that's just the story of their team.

We know they have another gear.

And then they show it in game three.

And they showed it for three quarters of the first two games.

It's right there for them.

But going back to playmaking, those guys have both,

Jaylen Brown, too, has taken a jump,

as far as being able to play cat and mouse, read the defense.

But you look around the league, some of these guys like

Jalen Brunson, Shai,

these guys are supposed to be point guards,

but they're more like two guards... in a sense.

-So it's funny how it's kind of-- -Going back.

Well, it's like they can of course make plays.

But they're so talented at scoring.

Their footwork, their finding the body,

getting the line, whatever it may be. It's just interesting how the shape

of your initiator, like his profile can be anything

from Jalen Brunson to Nikola Jokić nowadays.

That's what fascinates me about the game.

That's the beauty of the game right there.

'Cause you never know until that player starts to shape himself out.

To what type of... I mean, as a coach,

I mean, obviously, you've been there and done that,

but you... if you get a young Nikola Jokić

or a young Jalen Brunson,

and when you get them, it takes time

to see how they shape out,

to now be able to say, "Oh, this is how we're gonna play.

And this is what we need to build around these guys."

And the New York Knicks have built around Jalen Brunson

on what his style is, gritty guys, tough guys,

long wing guys.

And that's allowed him to be special at what he does.

And, like you said, being able to score the ball,

get to the free-throw line. He's a three-level scorer.

Being able to get to the paint, use his footwork...

We always talk about guys who went to Villanova,

that's one thing they're going to have, and that's great footwork.

They're never gonna be off balance.

And the same thing-- Well, like you're saying,

Shai, you're able to build... How do you build that?

And then you build around it.

That's a great organization and coaching staff.

Something to be said about that, like, simplifying the way we play.

We play through this person,

we support them with these type of players.

You're seeing obviously different shapes of the playmaker,

but really, what everyone wants to build around is spacing.

And guys that can guard multiple positions.

It's interesting, I still feel like--

I don't know how Jalen does it, man.

He's got so much responsibility,

and they can't get Jrue off him a lot late in games.

They set up a screen and Jrue fights through.

He spends 12, 15 seconds of the shot clock trying to get Jrue off him.

He does it, and then he is gotta go at him again.

And it's like, I don't know how

he's able to sustain that level of performance at his size

with the best guy guarding him, trying to make those plays.

[LeBron] Multiple guys. 'Cause Boston has multiple guys.

Multiple, right.

You got Jrue Holiday, who's dogging you all the way up the court

and then you're trying to run a pick-and-roll now,

Jalen Brown switches off onto you

and then you're trying to get another switch and Derrick White's on you.

Now at the end of the shot clock,

sometimes, you have Al Horford closing out on you

and you can win the foot race,

but the guy's still 6'10", 6'11" and he's smart as hell.

Right. And you got all long wings around him

that are taking up space.

Exactly, and that makes it even more dynamic.

How... It just shows how great he is.

It's also great, great stories.

Like him, Shai, Nikola Jokić,

when they came in the league, no one was thinking "superstars."

Well, no, I mean, Shai wouldn't be in OKC...

-Right, if they knew-- -...if they know...

You know, Jalen Brunson would still be in Dallas.

-Right. -You know?

It's like, those are great stories,

where guys are like... they believed in themselves.

You know?

-Denver saw something in Nikola. -For sure.

Because at the same time, I believe Nurkić was there.

-He was the first-round pick. -He was the first-round pick. Yeah.

-So they saw something in him. -Nikola was the second-round pick.

-And obviously, they were right. -Yeah, right?

I mean, he forced their hand, right?

-For sure. -With his development.

He's such a unique player, right?

But I felt like... it's interesting how the way the game's changed,

like even... like, let's go back to, like,

-Russell Westbrook and Gilbert Arenas. -[exhales]

In college, they weren't point guards, they weren't playmakers,

they weren't making decisions, they were just great athletes.

They were trying to find themselves.

They developed into guys that could make the decision every time.

And I think those are guys that maybe

we don't talk about as much, but, like, they matriculated

into that decision-maker, right?

And so we're seeing that now. That never happened in the old days

It was, like, "This is what you are, you play this position,

you slide into these five spots."

Now, it's like, if a guy continues to develop,

he can break the first line of defense.

He's creating... taking up real estate, creating opportunities.

Can he now solve by scoring and passing in those situations?

We're seeing so many guys become that throughout their career.

I mean... [sighs] This is kind of off topic a little bit,

but it's definitely on topic what we're talking about,

like, I remember watching, you know, NBA games

when I was, like, teenager, or maybe even younger,

and it was almost like,

seeing Sam Perkins shoot a three...

-Right, it was wild. -It was wild.

-Seeing Manute Bol shoot a three was... -Yeah.

-What the...? -What's happening?

-Why is he 6'11", 7'6" shooting threes? -Right?

It was like, people was looking at the screen like, "Oh, my God."

Like, "What is this?" You know, and just to go back to what you're saying,

you know, seeing guys like Russell Westbrook

and, you know, Gilbert Arenas,

guys coming out of college, UCLA, Arizona,

Gil came off the bench.

-Right. -You know,

Darren Collison was a starting point guard at UCLA

before Russ even got an opportunity,

but when you talk about things

-that cannot be denied... -[Steve] Right.

When they were on the court,

or you saw them, it was something that had...

when we talk about the "it" factor.

-Yeah. -Gil had the "it" factor.

-Belief. -He had the belief in himself,

he had the "it" factor.

Every time he touched the court, you was like,

"Oh, shit, this guy's special."

Every time Russ stepped on the court, "This guy's special."

We've never seen anything like this.

-[Steve] Right. -Like, it's like a... [blows air]

As soon as he get on the court, it's a missile, you know?

And that's just the beauty of the game sometimes,

where you able to, like, those...

I don't wanna say diamond in the roughs,

but I mean, you look at Gil, I think he was a second-round pick.

-Right. -You know, to Golden State.

Well, you said it, like, nowadays, everyone's one and done.

He came off the bench in college, right?

So like, it's just interesting.

And don't get me wrong, there was heliocentric players,

you know, in different eras.

-For sure. -Like Tiny Archibald.

-Yeah, for sure. -Oscar Robertson...

Then you get to Magic and Bird in different ways,

but they weren't like-- it's just different how it's evolved.

So it's just interesting how many guys, now,

and is it because we know more? Is it player development?

Is it so much based on personality?

-Yeah. -But so many more guys

are becoming these positionless players.

Do you think, like... The thing I always think about, like,

because there wasn't no social media

back in, obviously, the '70s, the '80s, the '90s,

that we could have missed out on a lot of talent?

You know, in towns

that word of mouth wasn't big enough,

you know, or player wasn't heard about,

or nobody could, you know, get the word out,

and we missed out on a Russell Westbrook,

-you know, that-- -There's no question.

You know? [chuckles]

I always think about that type of stuff.

Well, that's not just social media, but YouTube.

-Yeah. -But this technology's

allowed the world to get so small, so much information.

Think about it, like, Bronnie, growing up, could see

whatever you want on his phone.

-Right. -He could see how

-we work out, obviously... -[LeBron laughs]

...he had access to you, he could see what everyone does,

hear from everyone's opinion.

Back in those days, you learned through your high school coach.

Your summer coach, your AU coach, and stories.

Yeah, and a kid happened to get invited to, like,

-a summer camp or something. -You see something.

Right, like, it was just different.

I remember growing up, like, trying to get better,

just recording college games, VHS tapes, dating myself,

but like, recording games, and like,

taking stuff off guys who never really, you know, were great,

or taking the one-legged shot off Pat Ewing.

-Right. -People don't think

about the runner, Pat Ewing,

he would roll across the lane, go off his right foot,

and shoot with his right.

That became something I had to do, because I had to put people off balance.

Nowadays, people see that... It's everything you ever wanna see

on your phone.

You don't have to miss anything.

You can see and hear about it, too. "Explain this to me."

Someone can explain it to you, almost too much.

-Almost too much. -Almost too much, so I think it's...

The NBA is like a tech industry in that respect.

-Like, most nowadays... -Yeah.

...is that information is just becoming

so readily accessible.

It's changing so quickly, even the micro-adjustments.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -You know, I think that's one

of the issues I think we have a little bit with the game

is trying to explain to fans all these little micro-changes

that are happening, you know,

within a series or within a month,

or a half a season, a season, two, three years.

It's changing quickly, and it looks similar.

Fans, I want you guys to know that we're listening.

We hear you guys. We're listening.

We always want to make sure that the game of basketball

is viewed from y'all point of view, and y'all love the product, you know,

we're always trying to figure out a way to get better,

but the game changes, you know?

You know, the conversation on, you know,

I wish the game was like this compared to, like--

It's too far to even be thinking about those type of things.

-It's impossible. -It's impossible.

-Everything changes. -Yeah.

Everything changes.

Well, think about some of those factors in that, so you know,

when I came in the league, you had four coaches.

Now, you have nine or ten on every staff.

Sometimes, more coaches on the bench than players.

Right, 100%, two rows. Two rows.

Now, you have five guys typically in a video room.

They have to be able to play with the guys that don't play.

They have to be able to cut tape for every coach and player.

Right, then you have analytics departments, you know,

some could be four, five people deep, right?

So there's so much information that, you know,

back in the day, you had a trainer,

a head trainer and assistant trainer,

and then a strength coach got introduced, right?

Your performance team could be ten people.

It's sports scientists, physical therapists,

strength and conditioning coaches.

So everything is continually evolving,

and so I think it's inevitable, it's gonna change.

It's gonna change quick,

and they're gonna be sometimes really micro, little changes,

because there are so many brains on this every day, right?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

-I mean, the game is beautiful, man. -It is.

And you know, we have to just evolve with it.

Just like how we do in everyday life.

We have to evolve with life, we also have to evolve with sports.

The sport that we love, whatever that sport is,

but that's the beauty of being able to understand,

and respect, and appreciate where the game come from,

and also be able to understand

and appreciate where it is today, as well.

[Steve] That's right, well said.

[mellow jazzy music]

That was beautiful.

Mm.

Right.

Yeah. Right.

-Yeah, well, it also-- -Yeah, that's crazy.

-That's crazy. -Right?

That's crazy.

There was no value in it, perceived.

It's like, "Why would I go over there?

We got the best players in the world here."

Now, we see there's players everywhere.

To your point about missing out on guys...

-Right. -I'm a big believer

that there's talent everywhere.

-Yeah. -Like...

like Bill Gates has become Bill Gates

because he grew up near one of the only mainframes

in the United States, apparently,

or you know, like, hub of the early internet, right?

Not saying he is not a brilliant guy,

but he happened to live right there.

Who's to say that a kid in Mississippi or Mexico City

that didn't have the same access, couldn't have had the same power?

Similar to basketball, right? Who knows if a kid grew up playing,

he just didn't have that one person who believed?

Or didn't have that coach that knew the game,

or the family dynamic didn't allow it, right?

There's talent everywhere. And just trying to give people

an opportunity is almost as important as the talent.

Yeah, for sure.

And then I think other part is, like,

you know, I'm obviously older than you,

and my generation was slightly, not that much different,

because you didn't have social media

-when you were in high school, did you? -No.

So, you know, thinking in that way, like, what did we do?

-We went out and played. -That's it.

So we played, we learned through the hours,

through trial and error more so than technology.

-Yeah, for sure. -The phone. The commercialization.

There were no basketball trainers and shit like that growing up.

-Get your own rebound. -Get your own rebound.

Spin the ball out, turn around, jab, do your jab steps,

one dribble, shoot, one dribble.

-Right. -Two dribble, shoot,

Mikan drill.

Right. And that doesn't mean that's better.

Everything's getting better, it's just a matter of finding the balance,

where can we add some of the things

we learned in the past back into the flow of information?

That's why I like your point.

I love the way you ended that with just...

the game is beautiful, man.

I know a lot of players in my generation

all are critical of the game.

I watch these playoff games, man, I love the game.

I love the NBA, I love the little battles,

the chess matches...

-Yeah. -...the randomness,

but with principles, you know,

to me, it's in a beautiful place.

And I love the growing up. I mean, shit...

[chuckles] They just...

The older generation, they make you not want

to love the game that I grew up watching.

Right.

Like, I grew up loving a Knicks versus Bulls

playoff series.

-Right. -Or Pacers

versus Knicks playoff series.

Like, I loved that.

-Right. -Or even like, you know...

Obviously, I'm from a small town outside of Cleveland,

but watching the Cavs get an opportunity

to play against, you know, MJ, didn't ever see it live, obviously,

but everybody's excited about it.

Seeing, you know, Charles Barkley play in Phoenix,

like, take his talents to Phoenix,

and help them get to the finals was, like, so fucking dope.

I mean, it's Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle, like, you know,

those guys are really good players,

but they weren't, like, top-of-the-line guys,

and it got them to the finals.

And then, like, the generation, they talk so much shit

about the game today.

-Yeah. -And it make you go back

and watch the game back then,

and it makes you not even want to appreciate it no more

like I did when I was a kid. Like, it was like...

Right. It's a great point. It's great point.

When you go back and watch it now,

it doesn't feel as good as it did at the time.

-It does not. -But it was great. Best on the planet.

It was great, or you know, these guys here say,

"We can't be friends. You are friends with...

Why are you smiling on the court?"

And then someone goes to find a clip of, like,

you standing next to this guy during the finals,

smiling and laughing.

-It's like, "What the...?" -Right.

Like, what? Can't we just be honest with everyone?

-Yeah. -Just be honest, like...

-I don't understand this. -Memories are fallible, right?

-Oh, for sure. -Memories are not perfect.

Yeah. If you want your movie, then write their own script

-to the movie. -Right, right.

And you know what?

Maybe we should flip it and be appreciative that...

And I should, you know, I'm an old head,

but that the old heads

-are bitter and pissed. -You're different, don't even try it.

But like, they're bitter,

-Do not try to be-- -And pissed, competitive.

Do not try to be the CEO and president of the Old Head Committee.

-Don't do it. -[laughing]

-But maybe we should say-- -They're gonna string you out.

-You're too positive. Too appreciative. -Yeah, maybe I am.

Yes, you are, you're too positive and too appreciative for...

But maybe it's also cool that they're, like,

that's who they are, they're competitive dudes.

-For sure. -And they can't let go.

And that's what made them great, and so,

although it can be frustrating at times, and we have to put it in perspective,

it's great that that's who they are.

That's how they got where they got, and they won't let go.

-It's all part of the story. -Right.