All language subtitles for Mind The Game S02E06.en-us.Dialog.Sdh

"Start the blender."

[LeBron] You know what the funny thing is?

Every time I play international
basketball, we play against Serbia,

we're playing against all these countries.

-Amazing fans.
-All type of chants,

[vocalizing]

-Like, going crazy.
-Right.

No matter if they're up 20,
no matter if they down 20.

[bluesy theme music]

Welcome back to Mind The Game,
presented by Uninterrupted and Wondery.

We're still in Indiana,

having a great time here
discussing the game.

This episode we dug into the mid-range.

It's so common for people to think the
mid-range has left the game of basketball,

which is actually not true.

It's only part of the truth.
So we talked about the positive

and the negative of the mid-range,

and why the mid-range
has never been more important.

Now, let's get to the episode
and I hope you enjoy.

[bluesy theme music]

You know, one of the things
I wanted to talk about

-is the mid-range shot.
-Hmm.

We talk about it so much generally, right?

-We talk about it--
-Right.

I think the average fan knows,
like, the mid-range shot's gone away,

three-point shot in abundance.

-Yep.
-But I'd like to dive into

some more like, if not truths,

some context and where are
we with the mid-range shot?

Why is the game gone the way it's gone?
And I think we've talked about this.

We've talked about this
a little bit before

but to start it off with some context,

when I came in the league,

I came into a team with
three or four power forwards

who couldn't shoot past the elbow.

You know, that played on the block. Right?

The game was different.
Nowadays, those guys don't exist.

Those players are out of the league.

They're either small-ball fives or
had to be more skilled play-making

perimeter players.

So there's some context here.
One, the evolution. Okay?

Why did we go away from the two bigs,
the power forward, throw it in the post.

The center could be high in the
parking lot, the way the old rules were.

I came in the league with guys lifted,
we took that out.

We took out the lifted players
with the illegal defense rules.

Now the illegal defense, 2.9 in the lane.

A little bit more of a hybrid towards
international college ball.

We also changed the physicality.

You know, people can no longer
hit with the forearm.

-Yep.
-Hold.

-Yep.
-All the things they used to do.

So now the game's faster, more fluid.

We've talked about a little about
our seven seconds or less teams,

we opened it up.
We played four out or five out at times,

you know, as a precursor.

And I know they did that
in Orlando with Dwight.

Stan did that on those teams.

And some of these teams
started to figure out,

"We gotta play differently."

But really what's happened
here is that, now everyone,

I think the conversation
largely talks about,

for the average fan, we don't
shoot mid-range shots anymore.

We've taken them out.

-That's not true.
-That's not true.

Role players don't shoot
mid-range shots anymore.

The role player in our league
nowadays has to be able

-to guard multiple positions,
-Correct.

has to be able to make threes.
And it's a bonus and growing,

if they can attack a closeout--

-Start the blender.
-Start the blender.

So that is what's happened here.

I'm gonna make the argument now,
and I want us to talk about this at length

that the mid-range shot has never been
more important for your creator

because teams are obviously
gonna try to take away.

-Yeah. And the threes.
-The rim. And the threes.

Okay? So, let me think of a number now.

Now depending on your model,
but a few years ago,

It was made aware to me

that just the numerical value
of a mid-range shot.

So, the average points for possession,
like I think this year,

the average points per
possession of an NBA game

-for the entire league is, like, 1.14.
-Mm-hmm.

There was 14 guys in the league

who shot 1.14 efficiency
from the mid-range.

Fourteen, right?

Out of 400 some players.

So the value clearly is
not a high-value shot.

-Right.
-Right?

But really what that's saying is

that it's not a high-value
for your non-creator.

So I wanna talk
a little bit about, like...

teams know,
the number one value's a layup.

Number two's a free throw.

Number three,
really probably offensive rebound.

Threes.

Alright, offensive rebounds
because you got a chance

at a layup, at an and-one,
at free throws--

Or you got the chance of, not a defense.

Defense is closing, right? Threes.

So for anyone who thinks
there's too many threes,

I'd like to know your take on this.

That's never going away.

And it's not because we don't
take mid-ranges anymore.

Think about it, Luka,

SGA's gonna have...

Shai is gonna have the best
mid-range year ever in the NBA,

something like 60% on 15 mid-range shots.

Again, this is likely MVP
if not number two MVP race

having an unbelievable season.

And he is shooting more mid-range
shots than anyone else.

But the key is, like, Giannis,
who's picked up his mid-range game,

Jokić, elite from the
mid-range, you know, KD, Luka,

whoever these guys are,
top players, you know,

what they are not doing
is stopping driving the ball of basket.

So Shai is still an elite,
maybe the leader in drives, right?

Saying when push comes to shove,

you, Luka, Jokić,
trying to get to the rim.

-Correct. Correct.
-So it's not,

I'm gonna settle for mid-range shots.

These are elite players
taking the ball to the basket,

taking threes.

But the defense also is gonna say,

"We can't let 'em get in there."
What do you do now?

So that's where these mid-range shots are
never more valuable from your creators.

No, for sure.
And the one thing about the creators,

we're gonna hit all three levels

and in order to be able
to hit all three levels,

it gives your teammates
even more opportunities

to do what they are out there to do.

You know, by either extending the defense
to the three-point,

you're shooting 10, 12 threes a game.

Well, now we're gonna extend our defense.

We're not gonna allow
you to shoot the threes,

but we're also gonna protect the rim.

But the creators in our game
have always worked on mid-ranges.

Either if it's mid-range pull-ups,
mid-range floaters,

you know, turning drives into backdowns,

you know, to be in the mid-range.

Like, you know, for me--

-Even mid-range post-ups.
-Even mid-range post-ups.

You getting a lot of guys in,

your former teammate Dirk
mastered the nail ISO.

You know, and at the time,

and when Dirk was in his
prime and doing his thing,

it was, yeah, I can get
all the way to the rim.

I can back you down from here
or I can face you up

and shoot, no dribbles,
use all my footwork,

use all my pivots.

I'm gonna keep the defense

-so at bay and off balance...
-Yes.

...that it's always gonna work
to the benefit of our team.

And that's what it is.

I think, you know, like you said,

the common fan will say there's no
mid-range in the NBA anymore.

It's just fast breaks, layups--

-Right.
-Threes and free throws.

-Yeah.
-But,

-it's absolutely not true.
-It's not true.

And I think it's just important,

and maybe this is something
that a lot of people are like,

"That's obvious."
But I think a lot of fans,

it goes all these swings want--
no more mid-range shots.

Where would the Knicks be without
Jalen Brunson in the mid-range?

You know, where would Oklahoma City be?

That's the solve for
people taking away the rim,

taking away the threes.

You know, I think there's
some numbers on Shai

where he's elite, elite,
elite in pick-and-roll.

The number drops precipitously
when they double him.

But think about this.

They're playing four on three now.

They have a great team.

Right? They have a great team of
guys that can put the ball

on the floor, pass, shoot, make plays.

You know, maybe this is largely when
Jalen Williams is off the floor,

but when he gets doubled,

they go to, like, one point per possession
from elite, elite, elite, right?

Or below one-point possession.

So it shows, like, that should
lead to threes and layups

when you're playing four on three.

-Yeah, for sure.
-So his ability to exploit

that space in the middle
and still be elite is based

on the fact that he is
a three-level scorer, like you said,

and that without that
they're not efficient--

They're not the number one team
in the West.

You could say that about a lot of
the top players without them,

because teams are gonna take away the rim,
the perimeter, and the threes.

Especially in the postseason,
when things become even more dialed-in

and strategic about the game plan.
You have...

Throughout the course
of the regular season,

if you're playing against a certain team,

you have a shoot-around maybe,

and then you have a pregame
20-minute conversation

-to prepare for a team.
-Maybe.

-Maybe.
-Yeah.

You know, in the postseason,

you have days and days
and days to be able to prepare

and also be able to still
prepare throughout the series,

you know,

to be able to lock in on personnel,
lock in on keys,

lock in on what we want
to try to make you do.

So if you have these three-level guys

that can keep the defense,
no matter what you try to implement,

you take away the three,

I get to the mid-range, you're taking
the mid-range, I could get to the hole.

You try to press up too much,

now I can draw fouls,
I can get the team into the bonus.

So now when we start the blender,

I've gotten our team into the bonus,
we start the blender.

Now my teammates are able to be
successful too, off closeouts.

Now, they're playing a four-on-three game.

And like you said, if it's OKC and Shai's
getting blitzed in the pick-and-roll

and you're hitting Jalen Williams
in the pocket

or you hitting Alex Caruso in the pocket,

you're at their mercy, you know?

-You're scrambling.
-Yeah.

If you're playing Boston
and you're doubling Jayson Tatum

and you're hitting
Jrue Holiday in the pocket,

-now this guy is-
-[Steve] He's a point guard.

He's a point guard making
four-on-three reads,

things he's been doing his whole career.
So it's like...

It is very key.

And the mid-range is, I think is very,

-very key to the success of great teams.
-For sure.

There's another element of it that I think
is really important also

to understand is, the math is the math.

I hundred percent agree that
the mid-range shot is low value.

Like I said, let's call
it, like, just a concept,

but, like, if only 14, in the teens,

outta 400 something players are
efficient versus league average.

-Right, right.
-Possession.

It's not a high-value shot.

But there's a human element
on both sides of the ball

that I'd love to hear your take on.

One, if, you know,

as most defenses do,
we want to protect the rim, right?

We want to take away threes,
run people off threes.

But if Shai's punching your lights out

-with mid-range shots...
-It gets frustrating.

-You're human.
-It gets frustrating

-as a defender,
-You're human.

And so what happens is it,
you may not even leave the game plan,

but you're leaning,

you're thinking instead of playing,
being instinctive.

And so there's
the human element defensively

which I'd like to hear how you can
break teams a little bit

by getting them out of their defense,
by picking people apart here.

And then the other side
of it's offensively,

like, a lot of players get
their rhythm in the mid-range.

You can't--

And, like, I've talked to
some coaches in the league

who have been in the league
for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years,

and they're saying,
"You always want to find a way

to get your best player shots."

And a lot of times that's just spacing.

Get 'em go one-on-one, get to their spot.

But how can you say,
"I want to get them a shot,

I wanna get 'em a bucket," and then say,
"Oh, but by the way,

-don't do these ones."
-Yeah, don't do that.

You know, could you imagine,

I mean, when I coached,
like, I would've loved KD

to take eight, 10, 12 threes a game.

And he's capable,
just rising up over people,

but he gets so much rhythm
and confidence from the mid-range,

and he's such an assassin in there.

Like, it's a big change
that you're probably

not always gonna net out
on the positive, right?

And you could say that about
a lot of guys in our league,

the top, top players
that they know hard dribble,

feet set, up in the air.

When you get that one to go,
every other shot

-It's their rhythm.
-Is there, right?

It's their rhythm.

You can't take away the guy's rhythm

because the numbers speak for the masses.

-Right.
-It just can't happen.

It just can't happen.
And to go back to the first point,

the first question as far as the defense,

like, you have to be able to
live with something, you know?

And...

-But definitely, it takes a, like--
-Discipline.

It takes a lot of discipline.

Like, when you go into a game

and say, okay, we want to
give up contested twos,

like, if we give up contested twos
and they make contested twos,

then you tip your hat to 'em and you know,

but it's just certain guys

that are literally assassins
at contested twos,

Shai being one of 'em,

DeMar DeRozan being one of 'em.

-Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving.
-Kyrie, yep.

-These guys are...
-Those are layups.

They'd much rather you
contest than not contest.

-Right.
-It's literally their rhythm.

You know, and it's a challenge

for, you know, a player when
you're guarding these guys

and you say, shit, I just
made him take a contested two

and he keeps making it.

-Yep.
-And you have to realize,

you're like, I'm not making
him take contested twos.

-Yeah, right.
-This is what he wants to do.

-Right.
-And you just gotta hope he miss.

And you hope that it wears.

You hope that it wears
over time, you know,

to where, you know,
fourth quarter come around,

maybe because you've been
doing things offensively,

maybe putting 'em in actions,

maybe being a little physical
with 'em up and down the court,

and hope that towards the fourth quarter

that contested two that was going
through the first three quarters

maybe becomes a little short.

So it's definitely a mind-fuck for you,
you know, as a defender.

And then also, at the end of games,

you know, the analytics, you know,

in many scenarios becomes less important.

-Yeah.
-Points are points...

-Get a bucket.
-...at the end of games, right?

Like, we're talking two,
three, four minutes left.

You don't have the opportunity to always
pick and choose your shot profile.

-No, you do not.
-Especially when the responsibility

is on your shoulders
to carry this team home.

If you're finding space in the mid-range,

obviously, teams are gonna
try to run you off the line,

teams are gonna try
to pack the paint at the rim.

They're also gonna try to spray out
on be on a string if you fire it out.

So, sometimes you, as the lead guy,

you have to have the confidence
to stop, pull up, and make those shots

because a bucket is a bucket
down the stretch.

-Absolutely.
-It's a very nuanced conversation.

-It is.
-One of the other things I was thinking,

and I think you're like,

in some ways, you can
play many different ways,

but the one outlier here,

and I think you're like,
at times your profile

when you want it to be

can mirror a little bit is James Harden.

So when he was at his best,

like, it was rim,
free throws, grip of free throws,

fooling everyone, you know,
unbelievable downhill ability

with size, athleticism, his crossover,

playing on the perimeter,
the step-back threes,

and then the floater, which,
you know, like, is debatable.

Like, some of those are
probably mid-range shots,

but he was so good at the floater too

that he didn't take really,
you know, those, right?

-Right.
-Like, I can't think of many more.

At times, Steph can be like that.
Although he'll never devoid.

You know, he's just so good
from three and running off

and then defense makes a mistake
or overplays him getting to the paint.

You can do that when you want to,

but you also obviously love the mid-post
or elbows wherever you needed to play

against a certain team
in different eras even.

But it is fascinating
to think, like, how...

What it says to me is how hard it is
to stick to that shot profile.

-Yeah.
-Like, it's almost impossible.

James is, like, the one outlier
that lived off that.

And no offense 'cause he's still great,

but as he's not quite
as explosive anymore,

-he's taking more middies.
-Yeah.

Like, what does this all say to us
about mid-range shot, right, right?

How hard it was for him then

and what an outlier he was
shot profile-wise

and efficiency to now when he's
not quite the same athlete,

still, you know,
an all-star caliber player,

but he's taking more middies, right?

It shows like, one,
it's almost impossible,

that profile too.

And then when you gotta
get your team a bucket,

you can't just say,
"I'm not shooting these."

So it goes back to, like, the creator
has to have the freedom

to make and take those
or I don't think you can win.

Well, I mean, you just said it.

I mean, you can't have
the name of the creator

if you're not gonna let me create.

-Right, right.
-And that is,

you can't give me a blank canvas,

but then tell me
you can't paint over in that corner.

Right, right, right, right.

Like, I can't be a full artist then.

How can I fully reach
my potential as a full artist

if you're gonna lure me
on how much I can use the canvas to paint?

[bluesy theme music]

There's one piece of vocabulary, um,
or terminology that we use in the NBA

that you may not be familiar with,
and that is a three-level scorer.

A three-level scorer is someone
who can shoot from deep,

score from the mid-range,
or at the basket.

I think that's all you need
to know in this episode.

Hopefully, you learn something new.

And of course as always,
I hope you enjoy Mind the Game.

Please like and subscribe.

And then we both had this responsibility
to close games.

At the end of a game,
you gotta create for your team.

You wanna feel in control, right?

You know the feeling.
You know when you don't have it

when you're like,
for whatever reason, the rhythm,

the match-ups, the defense, you know,
who they're not guarding,

whatever it may be,
throws something, a wrench in there.

You're trying to find control again.

You know, that was important for me
was to be able to find control

by finding a middie or two,
finding the soft spot in the defense,

getting some separation
from someone making a two.

Okay, I'm back. Like, so, the human side
of the responsibility

of your top players
to win a game down the stretch,

you want to feel in control.

Can you talk about that feeling
a little bit?

-When you're not in control?
-Both, both.

Yeah, I mean, obviously we both have been,

you know, very blessed
to be in that position

to be in control of late-game situations,

games that come down to the wire.

And it is definitely a great feeling
when you, like you said, have that control

and you know, if I go to this set

-or if I run this--
-Or find this spacing.

Yeah, if I get spacing, I know exactly
how this is gonna peel out.

I know exactly
how it's gonna peel out by...

whatever action that I do.
I know the reactions that's coming.

You win your match-up,
then there's a dominance.

And it's a domino effect, you know,
and that's a beautiful feeling.

And like you said, sometimes
every now and then,

you out there and you like,

-shit, it doesn't feel right.
-Right.

It doesn't feel right
either from I'm not in a rhythm

or, you know, it's-- you know,
you might have a teammate

out there that's not in a rhythm,
but he's on the floor and you figure,

okay, where do I put him to be able
to be best for the other three guys,

or the defense has been...

You know, they've been nagging me all game

and I don't quite have a feeling,

but still the ball is in my hand,
and I still have to make a play, you know?

And it's like, where do you get it from?

And just you get it from past experiences.

-Yeah.
-You get it

by trusting the work you've just put in,

that you know that no matter

what type of rhythm you've been in,

what type of game you've had,

that you mentioned earlier,
the 10,000 hours have been put in.

Right.

Not saying that you're gonna
hit the game-winner.

Not saying that you're gonna

actually make the fucking play
that makes you guys win.

There's times where even
with the 10,000 hours,

you may have a costly turnover, you know?

-Plenty, plenty.
-You know, plenty.

You may, you know, feel
like, okay, this is the shot

that I finally felt the good rhythm

and I got my feet up underneath me
and it didn't go in.

You can have the feeling and not win.

-Right.
-But you want the feeling.

You want the feeling. I would much rather
have the feeling, good and bad.

-Yes.
-Just give me the feeling.

-Let me try to figure it out.
-Yes.

That's all.

You know, it's a...

It brings back a lot of memories.

Also like...

You also, when you have
that responsibility,

you build up enough scar tissue.

-[laughs]
-You know...

-That I can still make the play.
-Yeah.

I can still make the play.
I haven't made any...

and that takes time, that takes mistakes.

It takes failure.
And it takes the mentality of,

-Absolutely.
-"I'm gonna step up again."

It's almost like you have
to wear that badge of honor.

-"I'm willing to fail."
-Yep.

"I've had a terrible night.
I still have gotta step up,

and I fail again
when it counts in this game,"

and be able to go back in the locker room,
hold your hand up,

next game, ready to do it again.

If you have that mentality,
you build the scars.

-You're able to overcome tougher times.
-No question.

Get back out there.
And before you know it,

like, I always felt like for me,
there became a time in my career

where close games down the stretch,
it felt like a drug.

Like, everything's vibrating,

and you just feel at home,
like, now we're really playing,

and almost, like, you're
a character, you know?

-Right, right.
-You feel like powerful in a way.

-This is the one I've been waiting on.
-Right?

It's on the way though.

The rest of the game you're playing
and competing,

but then it heightens in those moments.

And I think that has to be developed

-through time and scars...
-I agree.

...and failure, and if you have
the right approach.

Can you speak a little bit about,

and I know it's a little bit
off the mid-range,

but it all boils into the human element,

the psychology of it,
a little bit about your way

of getting through the early part
of your career?

You had success early.
You have failures when you're young.

Yeah, absolutely.
I think, like, the most important thing

for me early on in my career
was just the...

the feeling of not wanting
to let people down.

-I had to get over that.
-100%.

You know, when you don't know quite how

to handle that emotion,
it's like, "Oh, shit,

if I miss this shot,
I've let a lot of people down,"

or if I make a bad play,
I'll let so many people down.

I think once I got out of that,

-and it took years...
-Sure.

Like, it took years for me.

Like, even my second time in the finals,
like my first year with the Heat,

like, I wanted to win so bad

that I also had the fear of
letting so many people down.

Yeah, "I came here,
we put this thing together, Pat."

And if it doesn't happen,
I've let so many fucking people down.

And the hours that I put into my craft,

the commitment that I gave to my craft
wasn't even like...

it wasn't even the thought,
which it should have been.

-Right.
-It was more like,

"Oh, shit, if I go out
and I make a mistake,

I let them down.

If I go out and fuck up, I let him down,"

instead of just, like, going
out there and just be like,

"Who gives a fuck?

-They don't care."
-Right, right.

You are in the position because of that,

and if you do, so be it.

And you still feel bad

-Absolutely.
-if you don't get it done,

but now you have the resolve
to push through.

So next night,
I'm doing the same thing, right?

-Exactly.
-It's interesting.

It's funny, I think I'm probably
butchering this,

but I think the Chinese
call it a paper tiger.

The Buddhists call it a double arrow,
and it's basically...

Mark Twain has this quote,

like, "I went through an awful lot in my
life and some of it actually happened."

[laughs]

-It's, like, our reaction, right?
-That's great.

You're reacting not to
the work you've put in.

-Right.
-You're reacting to the perception.

-Yeah.
-I don't wanna let people down.

We're similar in that way,
whereas other people,

like, I don't think Kobe gave a shit,
I don't think Michael gave a shit.

Like, that's a part
of their brilliance,

you know, and in a way,
you know, other people,

we had to get the scars
through that stuff, right?

And so I was the same way.

I think you perseverate on the negative

rather than I'm building
towards something here.

I'm building towards something here.

I'm putting in the time.
Rely on the work.

-Don't rely on the perception.
-Yeah, for sure.

This false reality, and I think it's fine.

We're getting into the mind here
a little bit, but like--

-For sure. Mind the Game.
-Mind the Game.

No, I mean, but I agree.

Like, it takes, like...

You know, like the best teacher in life
is experience.

It takes time, it takes time for you
depending on--

Everybody is a different individual.

Everybody's mindset
and the way we're wired,

our wiring are all different,

and it takes more time

for certain individuals to get to
that point to be able to have that...

you need the scar tissue built up
and able to... and able

for you to be able to persevere through.

-That's right.
-And it took me time,

you know, six, seven, eight years

into my professional career
to finally get to a point

where even if I did kind of
zone out a little bit,

I knew, okay, exactly how
to like, [snaps] okay.

I know how to get back in there
and back into the rhythm of things.

-Like, it was a flick.
-Refocus right away.

Refocus. I've been there before.

You've been there before.
What is it that you can refocus?

-You know what I'm saying?
-Yeah.

So, I think it took time for where,

you know, for me to get to that point,

but I think experience, man.

We all will get to a point, you know,

for the younger generation ball players,
when you guys coming up, men and women,

you will know when that moment is for you

that it just clicks, [snaps]

and you be able to go about it that day,
that night you playing.

-You can lean on that feeling.
-You can lean on that.

It don't matter if you win, lose, or draw.

If you're put in that position
the next night,

"Okay, boom, I know what to do now."

And if it don't go that way,
"Okay, we play again in two days.

I'm ready for that moment."

We all get to the point where we feel it,

we know it, and we know how to handle it.

How did you handle...

I remember earlier in your career

you used to take criticism
for not taking the last shot

when you made the right play.
Like, how did you handle that?

That always bothered me.

I was like, he could
force something right now.

He's drawn two and a half defenders,
or he can make the right play.

Like, how did you navigate all the noise

versus being true to who you are,
which is a basketball player

that plays with intelligence,
feel, makes the right read?

I just stayed true to
what got me to that point.

Like, I knew I was taught
the game the right way

as a kid because when... we won.

-It worked.
-It worked.

It really worked.

Like, I realized that, like,
when I got into the NBA,

I won three state championships
in high school,

and I thought it was something
that, like, all NBA players did.

I thought, like, if you were
one of the best players in the world

or one of the best players
on your high school team,

like, you should be able
to win a state championship.

And I got in the NBA
and it was a lot of guys

that never won a state championship,

that never won
a AAU national finals, that never...

And I was like, "Oh, my goodness."

I absolutely was taught
the game the right way,

and we all succeeded and had fun doing it.

Like, it brought so much enjoyment

to be able to play the game
the right way if it was...

I never averaged more than
30 points in high school.

I think my highest average
was, like, 27, 28, I believe.

-Sure.
-I know for sure looking back--

-It wasn't about that.
-Yeah.

I could have averaged
50 points a game if I wanted to

probably my junior and senior year,
but it was never about that.

It was about how can I maximize
my teammates?

How can I get the most outta my teammates

in order for all of us to be successful?

And we came here to win
state championships,

or we came here to win AAU tournaments

and AAU national championships.

And I felt like in order...

for me to win ultimately in the pros,
even though it's a different level,

I couldn't give up the essence
of what made me fall in love with the game

and how I was taught
even if the criticism...

like, it still goes on.

Like, it happened in the 2020 finals.

When I played in the finals and, you know,
I had a unbelievable game

in one of the games
to close out The Heat in the finals,

and, you know, I drove the ball,
two or three defenders came,

and I found Danny Green
wide open for a three

and he missed it, and we went to a game...

five, I believe, or game six.

But you take it every time.

And I'll take it every time.
I take it every time.

And people like,
"Why didn't you take the shot?"

"He should've took the shot."

"There he go again, passing," like...

-Never been there.
-[both chuckling]

You know, it's one of the,
I don't know the quote verbatim, but...

-Theodore Roosevelt.
-Headline.

-You know, the man in arena.
-Man in the arena.

The man in arena.
It's like one of my favorite quotes about,

you know, "Being mirrored
with dust and everything."

And, "It's always the guy
that's not in the arena is the one

that's the loudest and talks the loudest."

You've never stepped foot
in an arena, so how can you

ever challenge what
I am doing? It's like...

I think I talked before about
the little ingredients along the way

that make you who you are.

You don't know why, but this thing
ended up being really important later.

It's like, you know,
if you just look at your profile

as a high school player, like,

essentially biggest, strongest, fastest,
most athletic kid out there,

but you still were taught
the game the right way

and valued playing the right way.

Because if you had of just been

score, score, score,
you'd have never been LeBron James.

I would've never been who I am.

And, also don't think I would've played

this amount of, I would've never played
this amount of years either.

It's a great point in that

you constantly are changing
how you're playing.

You don't have to have
the ball all the time.

Your numbers are like,
MVP-caliber numbers,

but it's not with the ball all the time.

You're adapting and playing.

Like, I don't think you
can do that if you weren't

someone that tried to play
the right way all the time,

or was single-minded on scoring.

You know, one dimensional, right?

There's many facets, many dimensions.

You know, I said it before
with you here, like,

with Luka having the ball,
you know, a lot of the time,

your willingness to space intelligently,

to cut intelligently,
to screen intelligently,

to play out the short rule.

Like,

not everyone is willing or able
to adapt in that way.

Yeah. And that's what I hope that, like,
a lot of the people get,

you know, from our conversations,
watching me play.

You don't have to be
the leading scorer on the team,

or you don't have to be

the guy that's handling
the ball all the time

in order to make an impact.

Or, you can be that guy early on

and then be able to have a growth mindset.

Like, it's okay to still
be able to make an impact

at a high level,

and change your game
over the course of time

-to be able to evolve.
-And vice versa develop into.

If you don't play the right way,
have the right motives,

it's harder to evolve into a better,
like a winning player.

I think that's a big word. "Winning."

-No, I agree.
-Winning plays,

-winning player.
-Winning plays, winning players.

Yeah, for sure, like,
just having that mindset that

I am willing to...

to do whatever,

you know, I am willing to grow,
and be uncomfortable

in order for me to still
be successful and be...

you know, a thing on the team.

Uncomfortable is a great word.

Like that's, that's what, you know,

or another way to say it is,
"What are we avoiding?"

As human beings, but also as athletes,
like we should always be...

Young players, always ask yourself,
"What am I avoiding?"

"What do I not want to do
because it's uncomfortable?"

"Because it's outta my comfort zone."

"It's not something I... identify with."

Don't let your,

you know, this perception
of your identity,

ruin being a winning
basketball player, right?

Oh, that was, that was...

"Don't let your

perception of what you think
your identity is

ruin yourself of being a winning..."

That was, that was,
that was a bar right there.

We gonna have to put
that shit on a hoodie.

-Yeah.
-Yeah.

We gotta have to put that
on a hoodie right there.

That was amazing right there.

[bluesy theme music]

-Think it's good? Done?
-We got some good shit.

You gotta do ad reads.

I gotta do ad reads.

-You gotta go rest.
-I'm gonna get something to eat.

-Go to the hotel, put my feet up.
-[Steve] There you go.