Original subtitles

[soft downbeat music]

-I'm gonna order the biggest steak. -[director] Take two.

-You're in the right place for it. -I'm telling you, I got--

take a couple bottles of red wine--

-[Steve] There you go. -...walk around a little bit.

There's a great western store,

a couple blocks from the hotel, we get you...

I heard about this wine place, too.

[Steve chuckling]

[soft upbeat music]

Welcome to Mind the Game,

brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondery.

This episode, we dive into the playoffs.

What's different, what's unique?

What are the challenges that the playoff basketball presents

to NBA players and teams?

LeBron James and myself,

two guys that have played in a bunch of playoff games and kind of seen it all.

I hope you enjoy this conversation, and please subscribe,

and we'll see you next time.

[soft upbeat music]

-Mind The Game. -Yes, sir.

-Cheers. -Cheers, Steve.

-Yes, sir. -[glasses clinking]

I think it'd be great for us to talk about the playoffs.

Mm, that's always a great conversation.

-Shared experiences. -Mm-hmm, yeah.

And really just kind of layout for the average fan

what the playoffs are like,

and the difference between the playoffs and the regular season.

The number one difference,

I think you see it immediately is the intensity.

-Intensity, for sure. Yeah, for sure. -[Steve] Right?

I think that's what makes the game great, you know,

but there's, it's more than just physical intensity.

-It's a mental battle. -Yeah.

You know, maybe we start by talking about a time

or a series where you felt was exhausting.

Was exhausting, wow.

Mentally or physically challenging or exhausting.

Yeah.

And obviously, I've been in so many,

but I think one that comes to mind would be, obviously,

you know, 2012 Eastern Conference Finals versus Boston.

You know, I was in Miami, and obviously,

you know, Boston had their big three

and always had a big four, 'cause Rondo was so damn good as well.

And we go down 3-2 after losing a home game,

you know, going into Boston, which is one of the places

that you just don't want to be going there

for a closeout game, you know?

And for us to be able to go in there in game six,

and we know what happened in game six,

and us to be able to come back to South Beach and win a game seven.

But like you just said, how you said in the beginning,

you know, obviously you know the physical toll,

you already know what, you know,

KG is bringing to the game, his intensity, you know?

You know what Rondo's bringing to the game,

and the rest of that group,

they just brought so much out of you.

Not only from a physical toll,

but from a mental standpoint, too.

Because they have so many guys out there

that can do so many things.

So, at the end of that series, you was just like...

"Whew, like, I just wanna sleep. And I'm not gonna be able to."

-[Steve] Right. -You know that--

-If you've got time anyways. -Yeah, you know?

But yeah, it just takes so much outta you mentally.

Yeah. You being the head of the snake, too,

they're gonna throw everything at you.

They're gonna change match-ups, throw different defenses at you.

Can you talk a little bit about that,

like always having to think for your team as a crew?

Yeah, absolutely.

And obviously, that comes with preparation even before the series.

It comes with preparation before the series,

it comes with getting into the film, you know,

really actually really breaking it down now,

seeing, you know, ways they've guarded players,

ways they've guarded you throughout the regular season.

How many different ways are, can they switch it up,

and also just always being ready, you know?

And, you know, like you said,

you know, me being the head of the snake,

you have to always be ready, you know?

'Cause they could guard you one way in the first quarter,

they could switch it up in the second,

guard you way different in the third,

and in the fourth quarter, it could be totally different.

So, you always have to be aware of the match-ups,

of the calls, of the way they're guarding you,

how they guard you in the post, how they guard you on pick-and-roll,

how they guard you on ISO situations, you know?

That is also mentally draining, as well, but, you know,

if you're ready and you're prepared,

you put yourself already above the curve, as well,

to when it comes to the mental side, you're able to be like,

"I'm ready for this and that."

And sometimes, it takes a couple games, two in a series,

you can do all the studying and all the, you know,

sometimes, it takes a game or two to get into the series

to be like, "Okay, now I'm ready, now I'm fully prepared."

I knew I was ready,

but now I'm fully, fully engaged and fully, fully prepared

-on what's at hand. -Right.

I always remember, played against the Spurs a lot

in the playoffs, and, you know, it was tough.

Usually put a big wing on me, they got Timmy at the rim.

Usually back in those days they had two big guys--

I had a seven-footer next to Timmy,

you know, Robinson, shrink the floor,

sometimes, he'd stay at home.

That was one of the things that he, and I knew he was fucking with me.

Is that he would stay at home

so that I couldn't throw the ball around the gym,

and he knew I wanted to.

And just playing that mental game,

and I know what he's doing,

and I'm trying to find the right balance and not, you know,

hit my head against the wall. And that's exhausting.

Trying to do what's right for your team,

but then also do what's right for you,

attacking the defense, taking what's there.

-For that game. -That game, it could change.

It could change by the possession,

the quarter, come out a timeout or change later.

You know, I think it's interesting,

because numerically, the playoffs aren't,

don't look that much different than the regular season.

-Right. -[Steve] But they're so different.

Like I got some numbers here,

when you talk about like points per possession,

they go down a point-and-a-half, right?

Now you could say that's nothing.

It's still margins.

-Yeah. -You know, that's an average

effective field goal percentage,

you know, it goes down a point-and-a-half, you know?

Something, you know, they all add up, right?

But where it does actually show is pace, you know,

goes from 985 to 926 in 2023/24.

You know, true shooting percentage goes from .580 to .566.

The other one that's kind of a larger margin is assists, assists go down.

Assists go down.

We could talk a little bit about that,

but essentially, what happens is, these are intense scouts.

You are taking people out of what they want to do.

There you go, you said it right there.

Assists go down, because, ultimately, a role player can win

or lose you a game.

Mm, a hundred percent.

And when it comes to coaching

and you get from one round to the first round, second round,

conference finals, finals,

there's certain guys that can win you a game.

[Steve] Mmm.

And when it comes to coaching, they're gonna say,

"Steve is gonna do what Steve does."

-Right. -"Luka's gonna do what Luka does.

LeBron gonna do what LeBron does.

Kevin Durant's gonna do what Kevin Durant does."

But it's that guy or that guy.

-[Steve] Mm. -In their wins, he averages this.

In their losses, he averages this.

[Steve] Right, right.

That's where-- that's the assist, 'cause myself, you, Luka,

guys that, we know we need our teammates.

We know in order for us to really reach our pinnacle,

we have to make sure that these guys are super engaged

on the offensive end, as well.

'Cause they're gonna defend the ball and be scrappy,

they're gonna run through a wall for us,

but we need them to make those timely shots.

-And that's where the chess game comes in. -Right.

And I think that's what you're saying, the assists going down,

because now coaches are saying,

"Okay, that guy in wins and that guy in losses,

we gotta be able to try to take him out."

That's right. It's interesting,

it's not just the intensity and focus of the scouts,

-it's also the intensity of the play. -[LeBron] Of the play.

There's no more back-to-backs, you know?

Especially the first-round gets stretched out a bit.

-So it's less travel. -[Steve] Less travel.

You're staying in the city for two games.

So all these things allow, and life or death, right?

It's the first 16 wins, it's not 82.

-[Steve] Fighting for your life. -Yeah.

So you throw all the fatigue away

and that's not to diminish what we do in the regular season,

but like it's a lot of games.

Yeah, I mean, you go from,

it would be the same if a runner, you know,

hey, for six months, you know,

-you're running a marathon. -[Steve] Right.

Six, eight months, you're training for the marathon.

-Trying to get through it. -Just get through it.

You're running a marathon for eight months.

On the back end for those last two months,

-now you're running a sprint. -[Steve] Right. Great analogy.

You are running a hundred-meter yard dash.

That's what it comes to, that's what it comes to.

And we know, we're all gearing up, we're all gearing up,

and it's no knock on a regular season, but you're gearing that up,

you're gearing everything up to get to that point where now,

you know, it's a hundred-meter yard dash, 200-meter,

like, it's like we getting to it right now,

there's no tomorrow.

Your comment about, sometimes it might take you a few games

to get into a series.

Well, part of that is because the physical intensity of the defense.

You've seen 'em in the regular season,

if they blitz you in the playoffs, that's a different blitz.

[both] That's a different blitz.

That is physical, that is hands, that is body, feet,

everything, taking away space.

So like, that sometimes is an adjustment.

And the referees allow it more, too.

-Physical. -You know?

And I've always equated like the regular season

to the playoffs is like playing in the NBA

to now playing in the Olympics.

It takes a couple games in the Olympics

for you to get to the point where it's like,

"They're allowing us to play a bit more physical."

-Yeah. -I actually like this,

but I need a game or two to actually get to it, you know?

And that's how the regular season to the playoffs is,

the refs allow it, and I love it.

And I love when you can be more handsy,

you can be more physical, and, you know, and it's not,

the whistle is not blown as frequently.

Right.

You know, so like you said, it takes a couple games,

because if you've been training your body

and been playing a certain way for eight months,

and then all of a sudden, within one week,

you have to now go into the postseason

where everything is more physical, everything is faster,

everything is more intensified, it may take a game,

it may take, hopefully it doesn't take two games,

'cause then you could lose a damn series that way.

But it may take a game, two quarters,

it may take three quarters for you to get into it.

But you're hoping that you're the team that,

that it takes less amount of time to get to that than the other team.

Yeah, for sure.

There's the physical intensity, obviously,

with the scheduling, being in the city longer...

There's the focus scouts, we all take time to understand

what's the style of play in this team.

What are the actions they run?

What do they do side-out of bounds, end out of bounds, end of game, get-in plays.

What's their philosophy on fouling?

-All of that. -Sorts of things go into it.

What are our schemes?

What suits our style of play against them?

-Yeah. -What are their schemes?

How do we attack them? There's a lot of studying that goes on.

Taking tendencies away.

So there's the physical intensity. There's the mental intensity.

Those two things combined make it completely different.

And it's the most fun you'll ever have in your life.

-For sure. -Right?

It's the most fun when stakes are on the line.

Refs aren't calling as much. You're fighting.

And then there's the component of you're

gonna see the same guys four to seven times,

-so it gets a little bit personal. -It does.

It gets a little bit personal. We're all proud.

We're going out there.

There's another part that's really important.

The human side. We've talked about before.

But that emotional roller coaster of,

you know, you go and play a team,

and you beat 'em, you beat 'em handily,

you feel like you're never gonna lose again.

A team beats you and you got no answers,

you feel you're never gonna win again. That's never the truth.

-Never. -Very rarely the truth.

Can you talk about your approach with your teams,

in that roller coaster of the players,

trying to keep your team even keel.

How do you lead? How do you manage them?

You just said it. You said it perfectly.

Just like, it's always like, until you get four wins,

-it's never over. -[Steve] Right.

It's never over. And I know we've never, in NBA history,

had a team come back from three zero.

But it's always a chance.

You know, I've seen it in other sports.

I've seen it in baseball happen before.

You know, I've watched baseball series,

guys come back down 3-0.

It's going to happen.

So until you win four games in a postseason, it's not over.

So it doesn't matter if you go on the road,

you start on the road, and you beat the team by 25, game one.

Game two is gonna be the hardest game that you have to play.

They're mad. They're sitting at home.

They're pissed about the game that they lost.

What they didn't do well, how they didn't play well.

The coaches is on their asses. They embarrassed.

That next game is gonna be the hardest game.

And you have to stay even keel.

You have to get your friends and family outta your ear.

You have to get off of social media.

'Cause everybody's gonna praise the shit outta you

like you just won the greatest game of all time.

And you have to be able to just get away from it all.

Are you intentional with that?

-With your teammates? -Absolutely.

Cut out the noise, cut out the distractions.

Super intentional.

Next game's gonna be the hardest game.

I think it's important because as you know on a team,

you got guys all different ages. All different experiences,

-mindsets. -Yep.

Emotional toll.

So you might have a young guy that doesn't know any better.

An old guy that hasn't played as much and now you need him.

You got all these factors to balance.

I think it's important to talk, through, 'cause it's human nature.

We feel good. Overconfident.

They feel like their back's against the wall.

It happens so many times.

Talk about never,

no one's ever come back from 3-0.

I almost got beat.

We almost got beat when I played for Dallas.

We played Portland. We're up 3-0.

We had to win game seven at home.

Luckily we played at home in Dallas,

but it was this close from happening.

So anything can happen in the series,

which leads to a little bit about the preparation,

the intensity, and then the adjustments.

-Yeah. -So you go into a series,

you have a game plan.

You have a way of playing.

And it's about balancing who are we, who are they,

how do we attack them, how do they attack us?

How do we stay true to who we are while also

playing them in the prism of how we

can take things away from 'em?

Right. And I mean, it's funny because,

you know, we talk about the regular season,

but the regular season is you building up the habits

to get to the postseason.

You're hoping that you've discussed and went over

and have instilled enough habits

to this is where we're gonna lean on in the playoffs

and it's gonna get a little bit more fine-tuning,

it's gonna a little bit more intricate in how we do things,

but you're hoping that you build those habits.

Now who we are is who we are, agreed.

But the best teams in the postseason is the ones

that can make adjustments on the fly.

If things are not going great.

-High-IQ teams. -High-IQ.

Now we're not saying to throw the whole damn thing out

-and throw it in the trash. -Right.

But to be able to just fine-tune this

or maybe switch this up

and be able to make adjustments on the fly.

[both] Give 'em a different look.

I always say it's so much easier

to be a Monday morning quarterback.

-Right. -You know,

we lose the game on Sunday, and everyone

and they and their momma and daddies

can go break down the film and say,

"Well, this is what we shoulda did."

All right, everybody calm down.

-Yeah. -Absolutely.

You're absolutely right.

But to be completely honest,

how can we do it on the fly, as well?

And I think the greatest teams that we've seen,

no matter if they've won it or not,

because it's a lot of things that go into winning and losing.

But the greatest teams

has been the ones that be able to make adjustments

on the fly from one game to the next game.

And also still having that quarter

built over the last eight months.

Right. You know, it's interesting you talk about teams,

like there's that human element, too is,

I think great teams have,

like teams that win championships, get to finals,

they have similar characteristics.

You know, you have a leader.

You have a hierarchy.

Essentially, means people understand their role.

They try to star and sacrifice for their role.

You have IQ.

You have resilience, toughness, and toughness,

it's gonna be physical but the toughness is mental.

-For sure. -It's mental.

You can't give an inch. You can't forget a play.

You can't forget a rotation. You have to be sharp.

You have to be early.

All those things that just

make the little differences 'cause the margins are so fine.

I think it's fascinating to see how often you get to the finals,

two smart teams, two mentally strong teams,

two teams that can make decisions on the fly.

You've played on some of those teams.

Talk about some of your Miami teams or Lakers team,

when in the bubble.

How you guys were able to make quick adjustments,

read off each other.

And use your IQ to solve problems.

Like you said, once you get to the finals,

it's like you said, two high-IQ teams,

the best players are on the floor.

Everyone knows what that team's gonna do.

I know what you're gonna do. You know what I'm gonna do.

And the margin is obviously

how can we get into a game

and execute with them knowing what we're doing,

but also how can we make adjustments

that they may not know we're making.

-That's that mental. -Almost takes

-a while to recognize. -Yeah.

-That they've changed something. -That you've changed something.

They say, "Oh, well," and you hope that it takes a game.

-Yeah. -If not a game,

maybe a full quarter, maybe even two possessions.

-Yeah, steal two. -Yeah.

If you could steal two possessions in a postseason,

in a postseason game, especially in the finals,

that can win you that trophy,

because it's you just, you see it all the time,

how the game comes down to one or two possessions.

You know, and it's not because, you know, okay,

both teams are that equal. Yeah, of course.

You got the one Eastern Conference team and

the Western conference team that's there.

But it can literally come down to like one adjustment here

that they didn't see or we didn't see.

-[Steve] Right. -You know,

and I've been able to be a part of, you know,

four championship teams

where there were times we made small adjustments.

-[Steve] Right. -You know,

and we made plays late game, you know.

Or late in the third quarter,

you know, that end of that third quarter

that you could ride that momentum going into the fourth.

-Right. -You know?

-Just shifts. -Small shifts.

You know and like you said,

the biggest thing that I know for sure that I've had

in my four championship teams,

we had guys that one knew their role to a T

and we were very smart.

We were very smart.

High-IQ guys, high-IQ guys.

And we could really, really just make adjustments

-on the fly. -[Steve] Yep.

You know, my Miami teams

could make adjustments on the fly.

We could play two bigs at times.

We could play one big at time.

We could blitz pick and rolls.

We could switch

-pick and rolls -Show and peel.

We could show and peel.

We could blitz and the guy that's coming out of the blitz

don't even run back to the hole, he could just peel to the top of the key.

We're reading each other, it's the communication.

My team in Cleveland, we could do the same thing.

We could play Tristan and Kevin Love together at times.

We could play Channing and RJ at the 4-5.

We spread everybody out.

Now we can switch a lot of things,

and obviously, you know, my team in 2020 with the Lakers,

we could play two bigs with Dwight and JaVale,

or we could play 80 at the five.

You know, we could bring, we had so many, got myself

and Rondo could be on the court at the same time

with Alex Caruso.

-Yeah. -You know,

where now we got these, and we not only thinking the game,

we're also mastering the game while we out on the floor.

So it takes a lot to win a championship.

It's not easy, but damn, it makes it a lot smoother

when you know you have guys out there

that's on the same wavelength or even close to--

-Right. -The same wavelength.

If I can look at you and be like, and you are like, oh.

-[Steve] Yeah. -You know, no need to be said.

And some of that comes from experience.

-Absolutely. -That's why it's hard--

collective experience.

For example, your first year in Miami, you lose the finals.

A big part of that is collective experiences.

Being there before together, having those--

-For sure. -collective scars

where you see in someone's eyes, we're gonna be fine.

-Right. -You're down in game three,

13 points in the third quarter--

-Yeah. -And you say, "We're gonna be fine."

If you haven't had that experience, those can be trying moments.

For sure. You start to question everything.

You start questioning yourself.

You start questioning the guy that you haven't been in the foxhole with enough.

It's just human nature,

if you haven't been in those experiences,

you don't know what to fall back on.

And, you know, my experience my second year in Miami,

you know, losing that year before gave me enough experience

to know how to handle adversity even more.

[Steve] Right.

You know, how to go into Boston

for a game six down 3-2

and everybody is saying that this is over.

You know, how to come back in 2016

after losing in 2015, you know,

and how to handle adversity, being down 3-1.

Because of the things I've learned

over the course of the past, you know,

and having those moments with my teammates

to be able to be like, "We're fine."

-And they believe that. -[Steve] Right.

No matter how large the obstacle is for us to overcome.

-Yeah. -They believe it.

[soft downbeat music]

You know, I also think like the first round,

while it can be battles, it can be level.

A lot of times, the playoffs change every round a little bit.

Especially by the time you get to the finals.

-Oh yeah. -You know, a little anecdotes,

but like, you often see benches shrink every round.

You know, team might try to play nine,

sometimes even 10 in the first round.

Yup.

-Next round, it's down to nine or eight. -Yeah.

Next round, it's down to seven.

When you get deep in the playoffs. It can also change in other ways.

But like one of the examples is, you know,

who's gonna blink first?

You start a playoff series, but if you're the one-seed

playing the eight seed,

oftentimes, the eight seeds already blink before it started.

We're gonna try something to take something away from them.

I always think of basketball framing in a way of like,

basketball is about creating and exploiting space

and constricting space.

Offensively, you want to create space and exploit it,

make it difficult for the defense.

Defensively, you wanna take space away. How can you do that?

Now, we go through roster composition.

Style of play, everything that's gotta fit,

chemistry, all those things.

But as you get deeper in the playoffs, for example,

you get to the finals, now, it's a blinking contest.

'Cause both teams feel like they're coming with their fastball.

And then it's who's gonna blink first and make the first adjustment.

Another point I wanna make and hear your thoughts on

is also the Monday morning quarterback comment.

-Like, not all adjustments work. -Absolutely.

People think we're gonna plug this in, and it's gonna work.

A lot of adjustments don't work.

And to your point, a lot of adjustments aren't big

we're gonna blitz, pick-and-roll.

It's I need your feet to be here.

-On this rotation. -Right. Yeah.

Or on this trap or whatever it is.

It's micro-adjustments that make all the difference in the world.

You, having been in the finals, can you talk a little bit about that first blink

and what that's like for a team to either be the one that blinks and changes,

and how that can change things for you,

or it can be an admission

-of inferiority or something? -Yeah.

Yeah, like, I mean, listen, I've been in finals

where I felt like the opponent was just more worthy.

[Steve] Hmm.

You know, I mean my first time going

to the finals in 2007, you mentioned the Spurs.

[Steve] The Spurs, yeah.

[LeBron] You know, it's not, when you play the Spurs,

not only are you trying to defeat the Hall of Fame players,

you're also trying to defeat the Hall of Fame coach.

[Steve] Mm-hmm.

-Can I stop you there? -[LeBron laughing]

Like, was Pop a spy in the military?

Like I'm serious. He spoke Russian.

-[LeBron] Yeah, for sure. -He came from Air Force Academy.

-[LeBron] For sure. -[Steve] I think he was on his way

to be an agent for the United States government.

And you're trying to win a basketball game against him.

I always felt like there was disadvantage or a hill we were trying to climb

-just from Pop himself. -Yup, for sure.

You can sense it like, okay,

I have to guard Tony, Manu, Timmy.

And then, you know, you see, okay,

maybe they may be a little tired this quarter, maybe,

and then you look to the sideline, and you got Pop over there,

and he's like on the floor, as well.

-[Steve] Yeah. -But standing on the sideline.

You know, so when it comes to like,

who blinks and--

Well, I think to before you get to the blink,

-they never beat themselves-- -No, never.

-So to your point prior, their habits. -[LeBron] Yeah.

They were resolute about their habits so they never beat themselves.

-And that's exhausting for the other team. -Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely, you know, when you come into a series,

you know, versus Gregg Popovich team,

versus Bill Belichick football team,

you know, we have to beat them.

Right.

They're not gonna beat themselves.

You know that.

So you already mentally drained before you even get into it.

It's like you start to put more pressure on yourself saying,

we gotta play perfect basketball.

-[Steve] Right. -Which is impossible.

[Steve] Right.

But you put that extra pressure on you,

because you know they're not gonna beat themselves.

So that's where you, we talk about the blinking game.

It starts right then and there.

That's a great point.

It starts right then and there,

saying, okay, how can we make the greatest team

or the greatest players at this moment,

because this is what the finals is all about,

it's the two teams that's endured adversity,

have withstand the long marathon of a season

and now, have put themself in a position

where the sprint happened and they're still here.

How can you make them blink?

And how can you see and know there's maybe

-a little small in the armor? -Right.

And once it happened, it's like a fighter, you know,

in the 10th round who's been going blow for blow

and he finally sees that other fighter

-kind of stumbles and hit the ropes. -We've all been there.

-Both sides. -I've been on both sides.

I've been a fighter that hit the ropes

and was staggering and maybe hit the ground,

standing eight count, whatever.

And I've also been the other one that's pressed the fighter into the corner.

You know, and that's just the challenge.

That's just how it goes.

It's a great example

or a great portal into leadership too though,

because when you are the team that's stumbling,

-you know, standing eight count-- -Yeah, yeah.

That, to me, is what great leadership is,

it's not the talking, it's not 30 and 10.

It's reliability in your approach, mentality, fight, and spirit.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -Right, you gotta be able to win

when you don't have your fastball.

You don't have your best stuff,

you gotta find a way to win as a leader

and you have to try to drag your team

and make them believe that we can win

even if we don't have our best stuff.

So it's often, there's adjustments happening,

then there's standing eight count

and then there's, they overcome that.

Now the series has changed again.

Talk to me a little bit about, you know,

usually, a team blinks, there's an adjustment,

then there's a counter adjustment,

and then at some point. the adjustments stop.

-And it might be after those first two. -[chuckles]

And we go back to let's do what we do best.

And now, it's back to like, who wants it more.

And all those things, the spirit, the connectivity--

-The will. -That, now, the game is about that.

It's we know each other too well.

-Right. -We've made the adjustments.

You're not going back there. We got over that.

We're not going back here, you got over that.

It's back to who wants it.

You almost look like you're competing versus yourself at that point.

Right? Yeah.

You're basically looking in the mirror, like I am competing versus myself.

-[Steve] Yeah, I will not give up. -And I can't.

Until it's over and done with

and zeroes on that clock, I am competing

-versus myself. -Right.

It's not even me and you anymore.

It's not even a com, it's not even about the opponent.

He knows exactly what the hell I want to do.

-Right. -I know exactly what he want to do.

I know the sets, I know the commands,

I know the calls, I know everything.

How can I...

How can I not allow myself to waver

too much to the left, too much to the right,

too much up, too much down?

-How can I stay right here? -Focused.

Focused and as that leader of the team,

also project that to the guys?

Yeah, yeah.

That is the ultimate

when it comes to those moments right there.

-Yeah. -That's the ultimate.

I would give anything to be in your shoes right now.

This cover's right around the corner.

-Going back to the playoffs. -Listen, at this point in my career,

like, I mean regular season, it's fun, it's cool.

-Yeah. -All right, but I just

-only care about the playoffs. -It's a drug.

Yeah, like the moment, you know, I'm all about the process

and I will always be about the process and to get to this point,

but postseason, when you have an opportunity, all you,

-if you have a chance to win it-- -[Steve] Right.

And you know you and the team have a chance,

it doesn't always result into winning it.

But if you have a chance, and you know you have a fighting chance

of walking into this ring and say,

"We can beat anyone."

We know we have to play as close as perfect basketball,

you know, obviously, we know that,

and it takes a lot of luck in the postseason, you know.

We understand that.

But you know, when it comes to playoff basketball,

man, it's definitely a drug, for sure.

To me, that's adapting to pressure.

Once you have faced pressure

-and succeeded, it's intoxicating. -Yeah.

Now, you always want more stakes.

It's like in the regular season, you come alive in a close game,

down the stretch in the fourth quarter.

You're a different person than the first three quarters.

-Yeah. -Right, we're human.

But that part of it is what I would give anything to go back

and be able to play in the playoffs, because the pressure, the feeling

of everything being on the line.

At 40, you, 22, like what?

Tell me about that. You still have that in your life

-and like perspective. -Yeah, I think you

just said it, until you overcome the pressure moment,

you have no idea if you can do it.

Right.

-It's kind of terrifying, -[Steve] Right.

You get into those pressure moments,

and it's like, I don't know if I can overcome this,

or I don't know if this is too big for me, or whatever the case may be.

However, you know, the human body

-or the human mind tricks you. -Right.

And then you were able to do that,

and then you were able to stack that and do it again, and do it again,

and do it again.

And it doesn't always result in win, loss, or draw.

It's just a moment of succeeding something that

you didn't believe at times or didn't think you could overcome.

And back to your question,

for me to be at this point in my career, you know,

two decades plus into this

and still have an opportunity to play

in the post-season, and...

know that I'm a big part of the puzzle...

it's worth losing sleep over.

And I'm a guy who, we talked about this a lot.

Right.

Take care of your body, sleeping and all.

For two months, if I'm lucky enough,

I am okay with losing sleep over.

-Yeah. Best time of the year. -Best time of the year.

Yeah. It's interesting. Like I, you know, like that kind of coming-of-age

as a playoff performer, the pressure overcoming,

like you said, you're not sure you can do it.

You have doubts.

I mean, maybe ignorance is bliss, for some players.

They don't know any better, irrational confidence.

But people that take on a lot of responsibility are feeling everything

responsible for team, the fans, you know, all that stuff.

It can be a lot.

And you overcome it, I think, like,

to try to message that to young players.

You know, one of the ways I like to think of it is like, there's two outcomes.

This is like the Art of War-type stuff,

but there's live or die, right? There's win or lose.

You know, once you've realized you've died 1000 deaths,

like we've both lost battles, lost many battles.

So once you realize you've died 1000 deaths,

-what's one more? -Right.

So like, you can risk it all again.

'Cause you've already lost, you've already been there.

So I think there becomes these scars built up

where you're not afraid to lose anymore. You're just going for it.

And I think that's the type of mentality you see when people succeed

in pressure situations is that they're okay with the losing.

They're okay with it. I'm willing to take this shot,

make this play, do this thing in this moment

because I've died 1000 deaths.

And you know, you're prepared.

-[Steve] Exactly. -You know you're prepared.

Missing a shot at the end of a buzzer or losing a game

or whatever the case may be.

You prepared yourself for this moment.

You know you've given everything that you had to the moment.

You're gonna be able to sleep better years from there,

because you know, listen, I committed everything

I had to the moment,

and there's nobody that could take that away from me.

Right. That's why you leave no stone unturned.

That's why you're process over outcome,

why you do all the things you do for the body,

the mind, the skills, the film work.

Because you don't want to fail in one of those moments

and go, "Maybe I should have, you know, taken more shots, slept more."

Yeah. And now you're done.

And you're looking back on something that you can't get back.

You know, another part about great teams is versatility.

Especially in today's game, you know? Like, you know, in the old days,

you had much more of a roster constructed

of six foot to 6'2'' point guards,

seven-foot centers, and power forwards.

Now it's like we've kind of compressed all that, right?

It's like as many wings. Position-less.

-Yep. -So you're talking IQ,

you're talking guard multiple positions.

You're talking guys that can play blender, you know,

the versatility, like you said, to be able

to make adjustments on the fly, to read and react.

All these assets mean a lot in playoff basketball.

And you talk a little bit about versatility,

and how that can change a series when it's like,

the last card to play.

Yeah, and I think who've mastered that is,

over the last like 10 years, is Golden State.

And the main reason is because of Draymond Green.

When we played them in 2015 in the finals,

I believe they started the series off,

I believe it was either Bogut or David Lee was starting at the center.

You know?

And obviously, we was out without Kevin Love,

and unfortunately, Kyrie got hurt

in overtime of game one.

Kevin had a concussion?

Kevin separated his shoulder.

Yep. And Kyrie dislocated his kneecap.

But we ended up going up 2-1,

and because of Draymond, and because of Iguodala,

and because of Sean Livingston, it gave them the dynamic.

In game four, Draymond started at the five,

Iguodala started at the four.

We stayed pat with our lineup of, you know, Tristan

and Timofey Mozgov, myself, J.R. Smith,

and I believe Dellavedova, I believe Matt Delly.

And it changed the landscape of their team.

Right.

And still to this day,

the versatility that Draymond allows Steve

and that franchise to have,

it makes them who they are.

And obviously, we know Steph does, you know,

it goes back to

Steph is gonna do what Steph does, you know?

And I think that's what the game of basketball is

to be able to have that versatility.

To be able to have 6'7" guys that can play big

or be able to switch out on guards, you know?

Having, you know,

6'5", 6'4",

6'8", 6'9" across the board

to be able to make you so versatile

that you always keep the defense or keep the other team at bay.

Because there's some teams that just won't change

or they don't have the versatility package to be able to do it.

You know, so that is huge.

They traditionally were happy to start with the center,

but what they were saying at this point is we're gonna play our last card.

We're gonna take that off the table.

Draymond on five, so immediately Mozgov has to guard the playmaker.

Draymo's the playmaker, and then defensively they can switch.

And now, okay, if you want to go

to Mozgov in the post, they're not going to you in the post.

So they've now played that card,

by playing it the entire game, their death lineup.

And so now, it's a blinking contest.

Are you able to stick with it?

Or are you gonna have to go to the 0.5?

They showed the league a lot.

I mean we did it, obviously, in Miami our second year

when Spo was a genius to be able to move Bosch to the five.

You know, we played big early on with Joel Anthony and Chris Bosch,

or Udonis Haslem and Chris Bosch, you know,

and I think when Bosch went to the five,

it gave us some versatility, as well.

You know, being more athletic, being a lot longer,

being able to open up the court a lot more.

The CB could hit the three, the corner three, you know,

and that's the game.

That's the game to be able to have those dynamics.

I mean, you look at Boston.

Boston won it, you know, by how versatile they are,

when they added Jrue Holiday, it made them

so much more dynamic.

Obviously the growth of Jason and Jalen,

but they're gonna be who they are.

But to be able to add a guy like Jrue Holiday,

who is basically a Swiss Army knife,

you put him, you tell him,

"What do you need, Coach? All right, I got it."

You know, and to be able to have those dynamics

and have those players, as a coaching staff,

that's something that you dream of to be able,

because every series in the postseason is different.

That's right.

Okay, maybe we need to play bigger, this postseason and this series.

Okay, now this series requires to be more fast.

Okay, now this needs to be more physical.

Now we need to really dial in and be able to have those cards.

To be able to play, you know, UNO,

I always got to draw four cards. Always gotta.

You know, you say UNO, I'm right here, I'm ready.

As soon as you say UNO, I'm throwing this draw four down.

That is the luxury. That's the luxury.

And that is the model having more position-less players.

You can even talk about was Golden State starting at the way Boston plays now?

Porzingis, when he plays, is a stretch five, protect the rim.

But when he doesn't play, they still have position-less basketball.

-For sure. -Five point guards playing blender.

Lots of threes. In a sense you can make it a comparison

to your Lakers team with A.D. going to the five, winning a championship.

You could go positionally big, but you could also go with a center and A.D.

You look at this O.K.C. team.

They not only have all sorts of guys that can switch, guard multiple positions,

but can play blender, make shots,

or they can go with the two bigs, Hartenstein,

so you're talking about top teams.

[both] Same with Cleveland.

They have Mobley at the five,

or Jarrett Allen playing right beside 'em. Absolutely.

Optionality and one of the cards has to be being able to switch,

the other card is being able to go a little bigger.

-Those cards, not everyone has. -Not everyone has.

-And that's a luxury. -Right.

And then you get to the leadership,

hierarchy, the resilience, toughness, the IQ.

It's the teams that have the profile and the roster.

That have the buy-in,

that have the leadership, the hierarchy,

the resilience and mental toughness.

That's who you see in the finals every year.

[soft downbeat music]

-Well... -There you go.

-To the Lakers. -Appreciate it.

And your 22nd journey.

I appreciate it. Looking forward to it.

Postseason coming up.