All language subtitles for Mind The Game S02E04.en-us.Dialog.Sdh

[soft downbeat music]

-I'm gonna order the biggest steak.
-[director] Take two.

-You're in the right place for it.
-I'm telling you, I got--

take a couple bottles
of red wine--

-[Steve] There you go.
-...walk around a little bit.

There's a great western store,

a couple blocks from the hotel,
we get you...

I heard about
this wine place, too.

[Steve chuckling]

[soft upbeat music]

Welcome to Mind the Game,

brought to you by
Uninterrupted and Wondery.

This episode,
we dive into the playoffs.

What's different, what's unique?

What are the challenges that
the playoff basketball presents

to NBA players and teams?

LeBron James and myself,

two guys that have played in a bunch
of playoff games and kind of seen it all.

I hope you enjoy this conversation,
and please subscribe,

and we'll see you next time.

[soft upbeat music]

-Mind The Game.
-Yes, sir.

-Cheers.
-Cheers, Steve.

-Yes, sir.
-[glasses clinking]

I think it'd be great for us
to talk about the playoffs.

Mm, that's always
a great conversation.

-Shared experiences.
-Mm-hmm, yeah.

And really just kind of
layout for the average fan

what the playoffs are like,

and the difference between the playoffs
and the regular season.

The number
one difference,

I think you see it
immediately is the intensity.

-Intensity, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
-[Steve] Right?

I think that's what makes
the game great, you know,

but there's, it's more than
just physical intensity.

-It's a mental battle.
-Yeah.

You know, maybe we start
by talking about a time

or a series where you
felt was exhausting.

Was exhausting, wow.

Mentally or physically
challenging or exhausting.

Yeah.

And obviously,
I've been in so many,

but I think one that comes
to mind would be, obviously,

you know, 2012 Eastern
Conference Finals versus Boston.

You know, I was
in Miami, and obviously,

you know, Boston had their big three

and always had a big four,
'cause Rondo was so damn good as well.

And we go down 3-2
after losing a home game,

you know, going into Boston,
which is one of the places

that you just don't
want to be going there

for a closeout game, you know?

And for us to be able
to go in there in game six,

and we know what
happened in game six,

and us to be able to come back
to South Beach and win a game seven.

But like you just said,
how you said in the beginning,

you know, obviously you
know the physical toll,

you already know what, you know,

KG is bringing to the game,
his intensity, you know?

You know what Rondo's
bringing to the game,

and the rest of that group,

they just brought
so much out of you.

Not only from a physical toll,

but from a mental standpoint, too.

Because they have
so many guys out there

that can do so many things.

So, at the end of that
series, you was just like...

"Whew, like, I just wanna sleep.
And I'm not gonna be able to."

-[Steve] Right.
-You know that--

-If you've got time anyways.
-Yeah, you know?

But yeah, it just takes
so much outta you mentally.

Yeah. You being
the head of the snake, too,

they're gonna throw everything at you.

They're gonna change match-ups,
throw different defenses at you.

Can you talk a little
bit about that,

like always having to think
for your team as a crew?

Yeah, absolutely.

And obviously, that comes with preparation
even before the series.

It comes with preparation
before the series,

it comes with getting
into the film, you know,

really actually really
breaking it down now,

seeing, you know,
ways they've guarded players,

ways they've guarded you
throughout the regular season.

How many different ways are,
can they switch it up,

and also just always
being ready, you know?

And, you know, like you said,

you know, me being
the head of the snake,

you have to always
be ready, you know?

'Cause they could guard you one way
in the first quarter,

they could switch it up
in the second,

guard you way different in the third,

and in the fourth quarter,
it could be totally different.

So, you always have
to be aware of the match-ups,

of the calls, of the way
they're guarding you,

how they guard you in the post,
how they guard you on pick-and-roll,

how they guard you
on ISO situations, you know?

That is also mentally draining,
as well, but, you know,

if you're ready and you're prepared,

you put yourself already above
the curve, as well,

to when it comes to the mental side,
you're able to be like,

"I'm ready for this and that."

And sometimes, it takes
a couple games, two in a series,

you can do all the
studying and all the, you know,

sometimes, it takes a game or
two to get into the series

to be like, "Okay, now I'm ready,
now I'm fully prepared."

I knew I was ready,

but now I'm fully, fully engaged
and fully, fully prepared

-on what's at hand.
-Right.

I always remember, played
against the Spurs a lot

in the playoffs, and,
you know, it was tough.

Usually put a big wing on me,
they got Timmy at the rim.

Usually back in those
days they had two big guys--

I had a seven-footer next to Timmy,

you know, Robinson,
shrink the floor,

sometimes, he'd stay at home.

That was one of the things that he,
and I knew he was fucking with me.

Is that he would stay at home

so that I couldn't throw
the ball around the gym,

and he knew I wanted to.

And just playing
that mental game,

and I know what he's doing,

and I'm trying to find the
right balance and not, you know,

hit my head against the wall.
And that's exhausting.

Trying to do what's
right for your team,

but then also do
what's right for you,

attacking the defense,
taking what's there.

-For that game.
-That game, it could change.

It could change
by the possession,

the quarter, come out a timeout
or change later.

You know, I think it's interesting,

because numerically,
the playoffs aren't,

don't look that much different
than the regular season.

-Right.
-[Steve] But they're so different.

Like I got some numbers here,

when you talk about
like points per possession,

they go down
a point-and-a-half, right?

Now you could say
that's nothing.

It's still margins.

-Yeah.
-You know, that's an average

effective field goal percentage,

you know, it goes down
a point-and-a-half, you know?

Something, you know,
they all add up, right?

But where it does actually
show is pace, you know,

goes from 985 to 926 in 2023/24.

You know, true shooting
percentage goes from .580 to .566.

The other one that's kind of a larger
margin is assists, assists go down.

Assists go down.

We could talk
a little bit about that,

but essentially, what happens is,
these are intense scouts.

You are taking people out
of what they want to do.

There you go,
you said it right there.

Assists go down, because,
ultimately, a role player can win

or lose you a game.

Mm, a hundred percent.

And when it comes to coaching

and you get from one round
to the first round, second round,

conference finals, finals,

there's certain guys
that can win you a game.

[Steve] Mmm.

And when it comes
to coaching, they're gonna say,

"Steve is gonna do
what Steve does."

-Right.
-"Luka's gonna do what Luka does.

LeBron gonna do
what LeBron does.

Kevin Durant's gonna do
what Kevin Durant does."

But it's that guy or that guy.

-[Steve] Mm.
-In their wins, he averages this.

In their losses,
he averages this.

[Steve] Right, right.

That's where-- that's the assist,
'cause myself, you, Luka,

guys that, we know
we need our teammates.

We know in order for us
to really reach our pinnacle,

we have to make sure that
these guys are super engaged

on the offensive end, as well.

'Cause they're gonna defend the ball
and be scrappy,

they're gonna run
through a wall for us,

but we need them
to make those timely shots.

-And that's where the chess game comes in.
-Right.

And I think that's what you're saying,
the assists going down,

because now coaches are saying,

"Okay, that guy in wins
and that guy in losses,

we gotta be able
to try to take him out."

That's right. It's interesting,

it's not just the intensity
and focus of the scouts,

-it's also the intensity of the play.
-[LeBron] Of the play.

There's no more
back-to-backs, you know?

Especially the first-round
gets stretched out a bit.

-So it's less travel.
-[Steve] Less travel.

You're staying
in the city for two games.

So all these things allow,
and life or death, right?

It's the first 16 wins, it's not 82.

-[Steve] Fighting for your life.
-Yeah.

So you throw all the
fatigue away

and that's not to diminish
what we do in the regular season,

but like it's a lot of games.

Yeah, I mean, you go from,

it would be the same
if a runner, you know,

hey, for six months, you know,

-you're running a marathon.
-[Steve] Right.

Six, eight months, you're
training for the marathon.

-Trying to get through it.
-Just get through it.

You're running a marathon
for eight months.

On the back end for
those last two months,

-now you're running a sprint.
-[Steve] Right. Great analogy.

You are running a
hundred-meter yard dash.

That's what it comes to,
that's what it comes to.

And we know, we're all gearing
up, we're all gearing up,

and it's no knock on a regular season,
but you're gearing that up,

you're gearing everything up
to get to that point where now,

you know, it's a hundred-meter
yard dash, 200-meter,

like, it's like
we getting to it right now,

there's no tomorrow.

Your comment about,
sometimes it might take you a few games

to get into a series.

Well, part of that is because the physical
intensity of the defense.

You've seen 'em
in the regular season,

if they blitz you in the playoffs,
that's a different blitz.

[both] That's a different blitz.

That is physical, that is hands,
that is body, feet,

everything, taking away space.

So like, that sometimes
is an adjustment.

And the referees allow it more, too.

-Physical.
-You know?

And I've always equated
like the regular season

to the playoffs is
like playing in the NBA

to now playing in the Olympics.

It takes a couple games
in the Olympics

for you to get to the
point where it's like,

"They're allowing us to play
a bit more physical."

-Yeah.
-I actually like this,

but I need a game or two
to actually get to it, you know?

And that's how the regular
season to the playoffs is,

the refs allow it, and I love it.

And I love when
you can be more handsy,

you can be more physical,
and, you know, and it's not,

the whistle is not
blown as frequently.

Right.

You know, so like you said,
it takes a couple games,

because if you've been
training your body

and been playing a certain
way for eight months,

and then all of a sudden,
within one week,

you have to now go
into the postseason

where everything is more physical,
everything is faster,

everything is more intensified,
it may take a game,

it may take, hopefully
it doesn't take two games,

'cause then you could lose
a damn series that way.

But it may take a game,
two quarters,

it may take three quarters
for you to get into it.

But you're hoping that
you're the team that,

that it takes less amount of time
to get to that than the other team.

Yeah, for sure.

There's the physical
intensity, obviously,

with the scheduling,
being in the city longer...

There's the focus scouts,
we all take time to understand

what's the style
of play in this team.

What are the actions they run?

What do they do side-out of bounds, end
out of bounds, end of game, get-in plays.

What's their philosophy on fouling?

-All of that.
-Sorts of things go into it.

What are our schemes?

What suits our style
of play against them?

-Yeah.
-What are their schemes?

How do we attack them?
There's a lot of studying that goes on.

Taking tendencies away.

So there's the physical intensity.
There's the mental intensity.

Those two things combined
make it completely different.

And it's the most fun
you'll ever have in your life.

-For sure.
-Right?

It's the most fun when
stakes are on the line.

Refs aren't calling as much.
You're fighting.

And then there's the
component of you're

gonna see the same guys
four to seven times,

-so it gets a little bit personal.
-It does.

It gets a little bit personal.
We're all proud.

We're going out there.

There's another part
that's really important.

The human side.
We've talked about before.

But that emotional
roller coaster of,

you know, you go and play a team,

and you beat 'em,
you beat 'em handily,

you feel like you're
never gonna lose again.

A team beats you
and you got no answers,

you feel you're never gonna win again.
That's never the truth.

-Never.
-Very rarely the truth.

Can you talk about
your approach with your teams,

in that roller coaster of the players,

trying to keep your
team even keel.

How do you lead?
How do you manage them?

You just said it.
You said it perfectly.

Just like, it's always like,
until you get four wins,

-it's never over.
-[Steve] Right.

It's never over.
And I know we've never, in NBA history,

had a team come back
from three zero.

But it's always a chance.

You know, I've seen
it in other sports.

I've seen it in
baseball happen before.

You know, I've watched baseball series,

guys come back down 3-0.

It's going to happen.

So until you win four games
in a postseason, it's not over.

So it doesn't matter
if you go on the road,

you start on the road, and you beat
the team by 25, game one.

Game two is gonna be the hardest
game that you have to play.

They're mad.
They're sitting at home.

They're pissed
about the game that they lost.

What they didn't do well,
how they didn't play well.

The coaches is on their asses.
They embarrassed.

That next game is gonna
be the hardest game.

And you have to stay even keel.

You have to get your friends
and family outta your ear.

You have to get off
of social media.

'Cause everybody's gonna
praise the shit outta you

like you just won the
greatest game of all time.

And you have to be able
to just get away from it all.

Are you intentional with that?

-With your teammates?
-Absolutely.

Cut out the noise,
cut out the distractions.

Super intentional.

Next game's gonna
be the hardest game.

I think it's important because
as you know on a team,

you got guys all different ages.
All different experiences,

-mindsets.
-Yep.

Emotional toll.

So you might have a young guy
that doesn't know any better.

An old guy that hasn't played as much
and now you need him.

You got all these factors to balance.

I think it's important to talk, through,
'cause it's human nature.

We feel good.
Overconfident.

They feel like their
back's against the wall.

It happens so many times.

Talk about never,

no one's ever come
back from 3-0.

I almost got beat.

We almost got beat when
I played for Dallas.

We played Portland.
We're up 3-0.

We had to win game
seven at home.

Luckily we played at home in Dallas,

but it was this
close from happening.

So anything can
happen in the series,

which leads to a little
bit about the preparation,

the intensity, and
then the adjustments.

-Yeah.
-So you go into a series,

you have a game plan.

You have a way of playing.

And it's about balancing
who are we, who are they,

how do we attack them,
how do they attack us?

How do we stay true to
who we are while also

playing them in
the prism of how we

can take things away from 'em?

Right. And I mean,
it's funny because,

you know, we talk about
the regular season,

but the regular season is
you building up the habits

to get to the postseason.

You're hoping that you've
discussed and went over

and have instilled enough habits

to this is where we're gonna
lean on in the playoffs

and it's gonna get a little
bit more fine-tuning,

it's gonna a little bit more
intricate in how we do things,

but you're hoping that
you build those habits.

Now who we are
is who we are, agreed.

But the best teams
in the postseason is the ones

that can make
adjustments on the fly.

If things are not going great.

-High-IQ teams.
-High-IQ.

Now we're not saying to throw
the whole damn thing out

-and throw it in the trash.
-Right.

But to be able
to just fine-tune this

or maybe switch this up

and be able to make
adjustments on the fly.

[both] Give 'em a different look.

I always say it's so much easier

to be a Monday
morning quarterback.

-Right.
-You know,

we lose the game
on Sunday, and everyone

and they and their
momma and daddies

can go break down
the film and say,

"Well, this is what we shoulda did."

All right, everybody calm down.

-Yeah.
-Absolutely.

You're absolutely right.

But to be completely honest,

how can we do it
on the fly, as well?

And I think the greatest
teams that we've seen,

no matter if they've
won it or not,

because it's a lot of things
that go into winning and losing.

But the greatest teams

has been the ones that be
able to make adjustments

on the fly from one
game to the next game.

And also still
having that quarter

built over
the last eight months.

Right. You know,
it's interesting you talk about teams,

like there's that
human element, too is,

I think great teams have,

like teams that win
championships, get to finals,

they have similar
characteristics.

You know, you have a leader.

You have a hierarchy.

Essentially, means people
understand their role.

They try to star and sacrifice
for their role.

You have IQ.

You have resilience, toughness,
and toughness,

it's gonna be physical
but the toughness is mental.

-For sure.
-It's mental.

You can't give an inch.
You can't forget a play.

You can't forget a rotation.
You have to be sharp.

You have to be early.

All those things that just

make the little differences
'cause the margins are so fine.

I think it's fascinating to see
how often you get to the finals,

two smart teams,
two mentally strong teams,

two teams that can make
decisions on the fly.

You've played on
some of those teams.

Talk about some of your Miami teams
or Lakers team,

when in the bubble.

How you guys were able
to make quick adjustments,

read off each other.

And use your IQ
to solve problems.

Like you said,
once you get to the finals,

it's like you said,
two high-IQ teams,

the best players
are on the floor.

Everyone knows what
that team's gonna do.

I know what you're gonna do.
You know what I'm gonna do.

And the margin is obviously

how can we get into a game

and execute with them
knowing what we're doing,

but also how can
we make adjustments

that they may not
know we're making.

-That's that mental.
-Almost takes

-a while to recognize.
-Yeah.

-That they've changed something.
-That you've changed something.

They say, "Oh, well," and you
hope that it takes a game.

-Yeah.
-If not a game,

maybe a full quarter,
maybe even two possessions.

-Yeah, steal two.
-Yeah.

If you could steal two
possessions in a postseason,

in a postseason game,
especially in the finals,

that can win you that trophy,

because it's you just,
you see it all the time,

how the game comes down
to one or two possessions.

You know, and it's not
because, you know, okay,

both teams are that equal.
Yeah, of course.

You got the one
Eastern Conference team and

the Western conference
team that's there.

But it can literally come down
to like one adjustment here

that they didn't see
or we didn't see.

-[Steve] Right.
-You know,

and I've been able
to be a part of, you know,

four championship teams

where there were times
we made small adjustments.

-[Steve] Right.
-You know,

and we made plays
late game, you know.

Or late in the third quarter,

you know, that end
of that third quarter

that you could ride that
momentum going into the fourth.

-Right.
-You know?

-Just shifts.
-Small shifts.

You know and like you said,

the biggest thing that I
know for sure that I've had

in my four championship teams,

we had guys that one
knew their role to a T

and we were very smart.

We were very smart.

High-IQ guys, high-IQ guys.

And we could really, really
just make adjustments

-on the fly.
-[Steve] Yep.

You know, my Miami teams

could make adjustments
on the fly.

We could play two bigs at times.

We could play one big at time.

We could blitz pick and rolls.

We could switch

-pick and rolls
-Show and peel.

We could show and peel.

We could blitz and the guy
that's coming out of the blitz

don't even run back to the hole,
he could just peel to the top of the key.

We're reading each other,
it's the communication.

My team in Cleveland,
we could do the same thing.

We could play Tristan and
Kevin Love together at times.

We could play Channing
and RJ at the 4-5.

We spread everybody out.

Now we can switch a lot of things,

and obviously, you know,
my team in 2020 with the Lakers,

we could play two bigs
with Dwight and JaVale,

or we could play 80 at the five.

You know, we could bring,
we had so many, got myself

and Rondo could be
on the court at the same time

with Alex Caruso.

-Yeah.
-You know,

where now we got these,
and we not only thinking the game,

we're also mastering the game
while we out on the floor.

So it takes a lot to win a championship.

It's not easy, but damn,
it makes it a lot smoother

when you know you
have guys out there

that's on the same
wavelength or even close to--

-Right.
-The same wavelength.

If I can look at you and be
like, and you are like, oh.

-[Steve] Yeah.
-You know, no need to be said.

And some of that
comes from experience.

-Absolutely.
-That's why it's hard--

collective experience.

For example, your first year in Miami,
you lose the finals.

A big part of that
is collective experiences.

Being there before together,
having those--

-For sure.
-collective scars

where you see in someone's
eyes, we're gonna be fine.

-Right.
-You're down in game three,

13 points in the third quarter--

-Yeah.
-And you say, "We're gonna be fine."

If you haven't had that experience,
those can be trying moments.

For sure.
You start to question everything.

You start questioning yourself.

You start questioning the guy that you
haven't been in the foxhole with enough.

It's just human nature,

if you haven't been in
those experiences,

you don't know what
to fall back on.

And, you know, my experience
my second year in Miami,

you know, losing that year
before gave me enough experience

to know how to handle
adversity even more.

[Steve] Right.

You know, how to go into Boston

for a game six down 3-2

and everybody is saying
that this is over.

You know, how
to come back in 2016

after losing in 2015, you know,

and how to handle
adversity, being down 3-1.

Because of the things
I've learned

over the course of the past,
you know,

and having those moments
with my teammates

to be able to be like,
"We're fine."

-And they believe that.
-[Steve] Right.

No matter how large
the obstacle is for us to overcome.

-Yeah.
-They believe it.

[soft downbeat music]

You know, I also think
like the first round,

while it can be battles,
it can be level.

A lot of times, the playoffs change
every round a little bit.

Especially by the time
you get to the finals.

-Oh yeah.
-You know, a little anecdotes,

but like, you often see
benches shrink every round.

You know, team might
try to play nine,

sometimes even 10
in the first round.

Yup.

-Next round, it's down to nine or eight.
-Yeah.

Next round, it's down to seven.

When you get deep in the playoffs.
It can also change in other ways.

But like one of the examples
is, you know,

who's gonna blink first?

You start a playoff series,
but if you're the one-seed

playing the eight seed,

oftentimes, the eight seeds
already blink before it started.

We're gonna try something
to take something away from them.

I always think of basketball
framing in a way of like,

basketball is about creating
and exploiting space

and constricting space.

Offensively, you want
to create space and exploit it,

make it difficult for the defense.

Defensively, you wanna take space away.
How can you do that?

Now, we go through
roster composition.

Style of play, everything
that's gotta fit,

chemistry, all those things.

But as you get deeper in the playoffs,
for example,

you get to the finals,
now, it's a blinking contest.

'Cause both teams feel like they're
coming with their fastball.

And then it's who's gonna blink first
and make the first adjustment.

Another point I wanna
make and hear your thoughts on

is also the Monday morning
quarterback comment.

-Like, not all adjustments work.
-Absolutely.

People think we're gonna
plug this in, and it's gonna work.

A lot of adjustments don't work.

And to your point,
a lot of adjustments aren't big

we're gonna blitz,
pick-and-roll.

It's I need your
feet to be here.

-On this rotation.
-Right. Yeah.

Or on this trap
or whatever it is.

It's micro-adjustments that make
all the difference in the world.

You, having been in the finals, can you
talk a little bit about that first blink

and what that's like for a team to either
be the one that blinks and changes,

and how that can
change things for you,

or it can be an admission

-of inferiority or something?
-Yeah.

Yeah, like, I mean,
listen, I've been in finals

where I felt like the opponent
was just more worthy.

[Steve] Hmm.

You know, I mean
my first time going

to the finals in 2007,
you mentioned the Spurs.

[Steve] The Spurs, yeah.

[LeBron] You know, it's not,
when you play the Spurs,

not only are you trying
to defeat the Hall of Fame players,

you're also trying to defeat
the Hall of Fame coach.

[Steve] Mm-hmm.

-Can I stop you there?
-[LeBron laughing]

Like, was Pop a spy
in the military?

Like I'm serious.
He spoke Russian.

-[LeBron] Yeah, for sure.
-He came from Air Force Academy.

-[LeBron] For sure.
-[Steve] I think he was on his way

to be an agent for
the United States government.

And you're trying to win
a basketball game against him.

I always felt like there was disadvantage
or a hill we were trying to climb

-just from Pop himself.
-Yup, for sure.

You can sense it like, okay,

I have to guard
Tony, Manu, Timmy.

And then, you know,
you see, okay,

maybe they may be a little
tired this quarter, maybe,

and then you look to the sideline,
and you got Pop over there,

and he's like
on the floor, as well.

-[Steve] Yeah.
-But standing on the sideline.

You know, so when
it comes to like,

who blinks and--

Well, I think to before
you get to the blink,

-they never beat themselves--
-No, never.

-So to your point prior, their habits.
-[LeBron] Yeah.

They were resolute about their habits
so they never beat themselves.

-And that's exhausting for the other team.
-Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely, you know,
when you come into a series,

you know, versus
Gregg Popovich team,

versus Bill Belichick
football team,

you know, we have to beat them.

Right.

They're not gonna
beat themselves.

You know that.

So you already mentally drained
before you even get into it.

It's like you start to put more
pressure on yourself saying,

we gotta play
perfect basketball.

-[Steve] Right.
-Which is impossible.

[Steve] Right.

But you put that
extra pressure on you,

because you know they're
not gonna beat themselves.

So that's where you, we talk
about the blinking game.

It starts
right then and there.

That's a great point.

It starts right then and there,

saying, okay, how can we
make the greatest team

or the greatest
players at this moment,

because this is what
the finals is all about,

it's the two teams
that's endured adversity,

have withstand the long
marathon of a season

and now, have put
themself in a position

where the sprint happened
and they're still here.

How can you make them blink?

And how can you see
and know there's maybe

-a little small in the armor?
-Right.

And once it happened,
it's like a fighter, you know,

in the 10th round who's
been going blow for blow

and he finally sees
that other fighter

-kind of stumbles and hit the ropes.
-We've all been there.

-Both sides.
-I've been on both sides.

I've been a fighter
that hit the ropes

and was staggering and
maybe hit the ground,

standing eight count, whatever.

And I've also been the other one that's
pressed the fighter into the corner.

You know, and that's
just the challenge.

That's just how it goes.

It's a great example

or a great portal into
leadership too though,

because when you are
the team that's stumbling,

-you know, standing eight count--
-Yeah, yeah.

That, to me, is what
great leadership is,

it's not the talking,
it's not 30 and 10.

It's reliability in your approach,
mentality, fight, and spirit.

-[LeBron] Yeah.
-Right, you gotta be able to win

when you don't have your fastball.

You don't have
your best stuff,

you gotta find a way
to win as a leader

and you have to try
to drag your team

and make them believe
that we can win

even if we don't
have our best stuff.

So it's often, there's
adjustments happening,

then there's
standing eight count

and then there's,
they overcome that.

Now the series
has changed again.

Talk to me a little
bit about, you know,

usually, a team blinks,
there's an adjustment,

then there's
a counter adjustment,

and then at some point.
the adjustments stop.

-And it might be after those first two.
-[chuckles]

And we go back to let's
do what we do best.

And now, it's back to
like, who wants it more.

And all those things, the spirit,
the connectivity--

-The will.
-That, now, the game is about that.

It's we know each
other too well.

-Right.
-We've made the adjustments.

You're not going back there.
We got over that.

We're not going back here,
you got over that.

It's back to who wants it.

You almost look like you're competing
versus yourself at that point.

Right? Yeah.

You're basically looking in the mirror,
like I am competing versus myself.

-[Steve] Yeah, I will not give up.
-And I can't.

Until it's over and done with

and zeroes on that clock,
I am competing

-versus myself.
-Right.

It's not even me
and you anymore.

It's not even a com,
it's not even about the opponent.

He knows exactly
what the hell I want to do.

-Right.
-I know exactly what he want to do.

I know the sets,
I know the commands,

I know the calls,
I know everything.

How can I...

How can I not allow
myself to waver

too much to the left,
too much to the right,

too much up, too much down?

-How can I stay right here?
-Focused.

Focused and as that
leader of the team,

also project that to the guys?

Yeah, yeah.

That is the ultimate

when it comes
to those moments right there.

-Yeah.
-That's the ultimate.

I would give anything
to be in your shoes right now.

This cover's right
around the corner.

-Going back to the playoffs.
-Listen, at this point in my career,

like, I mean regular season,
it's fun, it's cool.

-Yeah.
-All right, but I just

-only care about the playoffs.
-It's a drug.

Yeah, like the moment, you know,
I'm all about the process

and I will always be about the process
and to get to this point,

but postseason, when you
have an opportunity, all you,

-if you have a chance to win it--
-[Steve] Right.

And you know you and the
team have a chance,

it doesn't always
result into winning it.

But if you have a chance, and you know
you have a fighting chance

of walking into
this ring and say,

"We can beat anyone."

We know we have to play
as close as perfect basketball,

you know, obviously,
we know that,

and it takes a lot of luck
in the postseason, you know.

We understand that.

But you know, when it comes
to playoff basketball,

man, it's definitely a drug,
for sure.

To me, that's
adapting to pressure.

Once you have faced pressure

-and succeeded, it's intoxicating.
-Yeah.

Now, you always
want more stakes.

It's like in the regular season,
you come alive in a close game,

down the stretch
in the fourth quarter.

You're a different person
than the first three quarters.

-Yeah.
-Right, we're human.

But that part of it is what I
would give anything to go back

and be able to play in the playoffs,
because the pressure, the feeling

of everything being on the line.

At 40, you, 22, like what?

Tell me about that.
You still have that in your life

-and like perspective.
-Yeah, I think you

just said it, until you
overcome the pressure moment,

you have no idea
if you can do it.

Right.

-It's kind of terrifying,
-[Steve] Right.

You get into those
pressure moments,

and it's like, I don't know
if I can overcome this,

or I don't know if this is too big for me,
or whatever the case may be.

However, you know,
the human body

-or the human mind tricks you.
-Right.

And then you were
able to do that,

and then you were able to stack that
and do it again, and do it again,

and do it again.

And it doesn't always result
in win, loss, or draw.

It's just a moment
of succeeding something that

you didn't believe at times
or didn't think you could overcome.

And back to your question,

for me to be at this point
in my career, you know,

two decades plus into this

and still have
an opportunity to play

in the post-season,
and...

know that I'm a big part
of the puzzle...

it's worth losing sleep over.

And I'm a guy who,
we talked about this a lot.

Right.

Take care of your body,
sleeping and all.

For two months,
if I'm lucky enough,

I am okay with
losing sleep over.

-Yeah. Best time of the year.
-Best time of the year.

Yeah. It's interesting. Like I, you know,
like that kind of coming-of-age

as a playoff performer,
the pressure overcoming,

like you said,
you're not sure you can do it.

You have doubts.

I mean, maybe ignorance is bliss,
for some players.

They don't know any better,
irrational confidence.

But people that take on a lot
of responsibility are feeling everything

responsible for team, the fans,
you know, all that stuff.

It can be a lot.

And you overcome
it, I think, like,

to try to message
that to young players.

You know, one of the ways I like to think
of it is like, there's two outcomes.

This is like the
Art of War-type stuff,

but there's live or die, right?
There's win or lose.

You know, once you've realized
you've died 1000 deaths,

like we've both lost battles,
lost many battles.

So once you realize
you've died 1000 deaths,

-what's one more?
-Right.

So like, you can
risk it all again.

'Cause you've already lost,
you've already been there.

So I think there becomes
these scars built up

where you're not afraid to lose anymore.
You're just going for it.

And I think that's the type of mentality
you see when people succeed

in pressure situations is that
they're okay with the losing.

They're okay with it.
I'm willing to take this shot,

make this play, do this
thing in this moment

because I've died 1000 deaths.

And you know, you're prepared.

-[Steve] Exactly.
-You know you're prepared.

Missing a shot at the end
of a buzzer or losing a game

or whatever the case may be.

You prepared yourself
for this moment.

You know you've given everything
that you had to the moment.

You're gonna be able
to sleep better years from there,

because you know, listen,
I committed everything

I had to the moment,

and there's nobody that
could take that away from me.

Right. That's why you
leave no stone unturned.

That's why you're
process over outcome,

why you do all the things
you do for the body,

the mind, the skills,
the film work.

Because you don't want
to fail in one of those moments

and go, "Maybe I should have, you know,
taken more shots, slept more."

Yeah. And now you're done.

And you're looking back on something
that you can't get back.

You know, another part
about great teams is versatility.

Especially in today's game, you know?
Like, you know, in the old days,

you had much more
of a roster constructed

of six foot
to 6'2'' point guards,

seven-foot centers,
and power forwards.

Now it's like we've kind of
compressed all that, right?

It's like as many wings.
Position-less.

-Yep.
-So you're talking IQ,

you're talking guard
multiple positions.

You're talking guys that
can play blender, you know,

the versatility, like you said,
to be able

to make adjustments on the fly,
to read and react.

All these assets mean
a lot in playoff basketball.

And you talk a little bit
about versatility,

and how that can change
a series when it's like,

the last card to play.

Yeah, and I think
who've mastered that is,

over the last like 10 years,
is Golden State.

And the main reason is
because of Draymond Green.

When we played them
in 2015 in the finals,

I believe they started
the series off,

I believe it was either Bogut or David Lee
was starting at the center.

You know?

And obviously, we was
out without Kevin Love,

and unfortunately, Kyrie got hurt

in overtime of game one.

Kevin had a concussion?

Kevin separated his shoulder.

Yep. And Kyrie
dislocated his kneecap.

But we ended up going up 2-1,

and because of Draymond,
and because of Iguodala,

and because of Sean Livingston,
it gave them the dynamic.

In game four,
Draymond started at the five,

Iguodala started at the four.

We stayed pat with our lineup
of, you know, Tristan

and Timofey Mozgov,
myself, J.R. Smith,

and I believe Dellavedova,
I believe Matt Delly.

And it changed
the landscape of their team.

Right.

And still to this day,

the versatility
that Draymond allows Steve

and that franchise to have,

it makes them who they are.

And obviously, we know
Steph does, you know,

it goes back to

Steph is gonna do what
Steph does, you know?

And I think that's what
the game of basketball is

to be able to have
that versatility.

To be able to have 6'7" guys
that can play big

or be able to switch
out on guards, you know?

Having, you know,

6'5", 6'4",

6'8", 6'9" across the board

to be able to make
you so versatile

that you always keep the defense
or keep the other team at bay.

Because there's some teams
that just won't change

or they don't have the versatility package
to be able to do it.

You know, so that is huge.

They traditionally were happy
to start with the center,

but what they were saying at this point
is we're gonna play our last card.

We're gonna take
that off the table.

Draymond on five, so immediately Mozgov
has to guard the playmaker.

Draymo's the playmaker,
and then defensively they can switch.

And now, okay, if you want to go

to Mozgov in the post,
they're not going to you in the post.

So they've now played that card,

by playing it the entire game,
their death lineup.

And so now,
it's a blinking contest.

Are you able to stick with it?

Or are you gonna have
to go to the 0.5?

They showed the league a lot.

I mean we did it, obviously,
in Miami our second year

when Spo was a genius
to be able to move Bosch to the five.

You know, we played big early on
with Joel Anthony and Chris Bosch,

or Udonis Haslem
and Chris Bosch, you know,

and I think when Bosch
went to the five,

it gave us
some versatility, as well.

You know, being more athletic,
being a lot longer,

being able to open up
the court a lot more.

The CB could hit the three,
the corner three, you know,

and that's the game.

That's the game to be able
to have those dynamics.

I mean, you look at Boston.

Boston won it, you know,
by how versatile they are,

when they added Jrue Holiday,
it made them

so much more dynamic.

Obviously the growth
of Jason and Jalen,

but they're gonna
be who they are.

But to be able to add
a guy like Jrue Holiday,

who is basically
a Swiss Army knife,

you put him, you tell him,

"What do you need, Coach?
All right, I got it."

You know, and to be able
to have those dynamics

and have those players,
as a coaching staff,

that's something that
you dream of to be able,

because every series
in the postseason is different.

That's right.

Okay, maybe we need to play bigger,
this postseason and this series.

Okay, now this series
requires to be more fast.

Okay, now this needs
to be more physical.

Now we need to really dial in
and be able to have those cards.

To be able to play,
you know, UNO,

I always got to draw four cards.
Always gotta.

You know, you say UNO,
I'm right here, I'm ready.

As soon as you say UNO,
I'm throwing this draw four down.

That is the luxury.
That's the luxury.

And that is the model having
more position-less players.

You can even talk about was Golden State
starting at the way Boston plays now?

Porzingis, when he plays,
is a stretch five, protect the rim.

But when he doesn't play,
they still have position-less basketball.

-For sure.
-Five point guards playing blender.

Lots of threes. In a sense
you can make it a comparison

to your Lakers team with A.D.
going to the five, winning a championship.

You could go positionally big, but you
could also go with a center and A.D.

You look at this O.K.C. team.

They not only have all sorts of guys
that can switch, guard multiple positions,

but can play blender,
make shots,

or they can go with the two bigs,
Hartenstein,

so you're talking
about top teams.

[both] Same with Cleveland.

They have Mobley at the five,

or Jarrett Allen playing right beside 'em.
Absolutely.

Optionality and one of the cards
has to be being able to switch,

the other card is being
able to go a little bigger.

-Those cards, not everyone has.
-Not everyone has.

-And that's a luxury.
-Right.

And then you get
to the leadership,

hierarchy, the resilience,
toughness, the IQ.

It's the teams that
have the profile and the roster.

That have the buy-in,

that have the leadership,
the hierarchy,

the resilience and
mental toughness.

That's who you see in
the finals every year.

[soft downbeat music]

-Well...
-There you go.

-To the Lakers.
-Appreciate it.

And your 22nd journey.

I appreciate it.
Looking forward to it.

Postseason coming up.