Original subtitles

You know who I hate?

[both chuckle]

Yeah, you know who I hate, man?

Welcome to Mind the Game with LeBron James and JJ Reddick,

brought to you by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions.

This is Episode 6.

This episode is all about how three-pointers changed the game.

And, yes, I am biased.

And, yes, this is my favorite episode we have done so far.

We explore pick-up points, high pick and rolls,

the deep range with which players can shoot with,

the step-back three, LeBron's own evolution as a shooter,

and perhaps closest to my heart,

we nerd out on all the different catch-and-shoot sets

that teams run to get shooters open.

There is a lot of basketball

and shooting in this episode.

We recorded this a few weeks ago in Los Angeles

prior to the start of the playoffs.

But again, most of the stuff we do is not topical.

I hope you enjoy Episode 6 of Mind the Game

with LeBron James and JJ Reddick.

Before we get to our conversation, I'm just gonna drop some plays.

All right. A lot of these are catch-and-shoot plays, set pieces,

some side out of bounds.

Uh, this is sort of an endgame victory.

I don't know who came up with this.

I know, I think Brad Stevens ran this when he was the Boston Celtics coach.

I know Klay Thompson got a game-winner on this season.

This is a variation of it.

There's different ways you can get to it.

The basic concept here is that

you're gonna get a screen…

and a screen here.

So this is a back screen along the baseline.

As that's happening,

this ball is gonna be skipped all the way to the corner.

This is the shooter, the circled player right here.

So he receives a screen.

As that ball's in the air,

the 5 man turns back around and screens the shooter.

You get an open shot a lot of times.

There's two reasons why this play can work.

Number one, a lot of times if this is a shooter away from the ball,

and the ball's over here,

this defender's gonna be in a top lock

trying to prevent him from getting the ball.

So you use that against him by the re-screen.

The second thing is,

let's say this defender fights over the top.

What is everybody's tendency when the ball is in the air?

They turn and look at the ball, right?

They stop for a second,

so that re-screen can get the shooter open.

Okay, a million different ways to get into a Hammer Action.

But I'll just break it down very simply.

The shooter is right here.

There's usually a screener somewhere on the baseline.

And let's say this is the passer in the big wing.

As he drives baseline,

this guy will come set a hammer screen for the shooter,

who then catches the pass along the baseline.

Like I said, a million different ways to get into this.

San Antonio Spurs, back when they had Boris Diaw, Manu Ginobili.

Boris would post up on this block, or Manu would catch on this block.

And I mean, these guys would literally, to make that skip pass,

Boris would jump out of bounds to make that skip pass.

Manu, if he would drive or post,

he would jump out of bounds to make this skip pass.

All right. Pistol. Pistol Action is just…

Any interaction in a 5 out, normally.

Normally, you have a 5 out setup. That's the ball handler.

There's a man here in the corner.

This guy can also start here in the wing.

It actually doesn't really matter.

Um… there's a number of options you can run out of Pistol.

This guy can come catch the ball, and he can chase it.

This guy can catch the ball, keep it, go into a ball screen.

For the purposes of this episode…

This is a variation of Pistol. This would just be a Pistol…

flare.

So this guy can come set a ball screen or ghost screen.

He comes off the screen. As that happens,

a 5 man sets a flare screen for the shooter.

The ball's right here.

You got a shooter coming off a flare screen,

and then the 5 man can either slip to the basket,

or continue on, set a ball screen.

Just different options out of Pistol.

All right. Indiana/What The Fuck.

All right. Um…

I'm gonna run this two different ways.

So let's say this guy is the shooter. This is a side out of bounds play.

Ball's right here. This is the 5 man.

This is typically a big wing.

So picture this as Jimmy Butler or a Kawhi Leonard.

The inbounder will throw to the 5 man.

The 5 man will reverse it.

As that happens, the shooter will set a back screen on the bigger player.

You can either get a switch.

The bigger player can punish a mismatch.

Or even if they don't switch, then there's a pick the picker.

Ball's over here.

Ball's over here now.

It's been reversed.

This guy goes and sets a rip screen,

a back screen on the bigger player who can cut either way to the basket.

Then there's a pick the picker for the shooter.

I ran this a lot in Philadelphia.

And when we would run it,

I would sometimes take it out, or I would be here.

So if I took it out, say this is me.

As that ball is reversed, this guy comes to set a back screen.

I give a little nudge… and I get the pick right here.

I don't go off the back screen.

The other thing the shooter will do,

you see Duncan Robinson do this all the time.

This, again, this is Jimmy Butler.

Here's the 5. All right, ball's in.

Ball reverses. Duncan goes to set the pick.

He simultaneously just slips out of there

and gets the screen from the 5 man coming up top.

Oklahoma/Oklahoma Small.

Again, every team has different terminologies,

but this is generally considered Oklahoma Action.

Now, you can run it to either way.

Uh… If it's Golden State, Klay Thompson's over here sometimes.

Uh… for the purposes of this, this is gonna be me running this.

So this is a double drag-- It starts with a double drag screen.

The shooter's the first screen. So I set a screen.

Ball handler comes off. 5 man sets a screen.

As soon as he sets the screen, he then picks me.

That's Oklahoma Action. So double-drag into a pick the picker.

I'll show you two variations of this.

Let's say you put the shooter as the second guy.

Uh… Miami did this a lot last year with Max Strus.

Golden State does this with Klay.

So this is the 5 man again.

As the ball handler comes off this first screen from the 5,

the shooter will just slip into space.

A lot of times, this is actually an empty side.

So the shooter has this whole side.

Again, shooter, 5 man.

First screen. As he comes off, shooter goes to set the screen,

slips into space.

As the ball handler comes off and the shooter goes,

5 man can also set a little flare screen right there.

Again, every time that you generally see this, this is an empty side.

Here's one variation of Oklahoma.

Oklahoma Small action that

Utah will run for Markkanen.

So this is Markkanen right here.

He'll come up from the-- Basically, the block.

He'll set the first screen. Big guy will come up.

He'll set the second screen. Ball handler comes off.

So now you've got Markkanen here.

Ball handler over here.

5 man has just set the second ball screen.

He then goes and screens Oklahoma Action.

Just a little variation.

All right. Finland. We're calling this Finland.

In some ways, this is a variation of Oklahoma Small.

It also has the same sort of concept that Indiana has.

So floor is spaced.

This is the shooter right here.

All right. Same thing. Double Drag.

This is typically bigger wing. 4 man.

Double Drag.

As that happens…

The shooter will set a back screen

on the bigger wing or 4 man who can look for a lob.

So now you've got that guy running for a lob.

Shooter's already set the screen. Ball handler's over here.

This is the 5.

5 then goes and runs a pin away for the shooter.

All right. That's Finland for the purposes of this episode.

But again, same sort of concepts as Oklahoma.

Same sort of concept as Indiana.

All right. Clipper Down or 15 Down.

I think LeBron calls it Clipper Down, because he stole it from us,

but we called it 15 Down.

And you see a lot of this.

All right. So this is the 5 right here.

This is the shooter in the corner.

Again, this is… Let's say it's me.

This is Chris Paul with the ball. This is DeAndre Jordan. 15.

15 was the call for our high pick-and-roll between a 1 and a 5.

So 15 Down is 15 into a down screen.

So DeAndre would come up like he was gonna set the pick-and-roll.

Chris would come off.

He would-- DeAndre would slip it and then go set a pin-down for me.

Chris then hits me coming off left to right action.

Free game.

Previous episode, we talked about Iverson cuts.

All right… This is Iverson "Ricky."

Don't know why I call it that, but I do.

5 man's right here.

Shooter's right here.

Ball handler's right here.

All right. The wing is gonna run this Iverson cut

off of these two screens.

The ball handler is gonna hit the wing off of the Iverson cut

and chase it to the corner.

That ball's right here.

Again, remember, the shooter set the first screen.

5 man set the second screen on the Iverson.

So the shooter's right here.

5 just goes and pins away.

Open three up top.

It's essentially the same concept as Oklahoma.

You're just doing it off of an Iverson cut.

Iverson "Ricky." Maybe we should call it Iverson Oklahoma.

Hope you guys enjoy this episode.

I know I loved having this conversation with LeBron about three-point shooting.

This is Mind the Game, Episode 6.

How three-point shooting changed everything.

Please hit that subscribe button if you haven't already.

Thanks for all the support. We'll be back soon with another episode.

[JJ] There's probably gonna be some comments, 'cause

now there's four bottles of wine here and not two.

-Yeah, we started with two. -You brought two.

Our friend David brought a couple.

-Yeah. -Um, thank you for that.

I want to talk in this episode about three-pointers.

-'Cause we've talked spacing. -Yep.

We've talked some specific actions.

I wanna get big picture, three-pointers, why it's important, how it's changed.

-Yep. -And then get granular

with some specific actions that teams run for specific players.

Yep.

I wanna start, though-- The other night in Brooklyn,

you went 9-for-10 from three.

Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks for the inspiration, too.

I wasn't even in town. I was on spring break with my kids.

I thought about you the whole time I was in Brooklyn.

-Appreciate it. -Uh…

Can you describe that state of being?

I mean, I guess only a few of us can describe it.

You being one of 'em.

A few other guys being in that…

in that zone. It's, uh…

You know, I used to watch this, uh…

this movie back in the day called Major League.

-[chuckles] -Famous quote off Major League is,

-"Chicks dig the long ball." -Yes.

And it's a different feeling

when you're shooting that three ball like that.

It's just a... I don't know. It's a euphoric feeling that…

that's different from catching a lob, dunk for myself.

Or get in a zone where you're like, "Okay, I'm in the post.

My post-game is working."

But when you're shooting that three ball at a high clip

like I was doing in Brooklyn,

it was like, that was one of the best feelings for sure.

There's like a flow state attachment, I feel like,

when you're shooting threes.

Because I play golf.

And golf is about muscle memory, muscle sequencing.

-Yep. -And when you're shooting a basketball…

It is about that muscle memory,

-muscle sequencing. -It is.

And it's not always right. That's the thing--

That's the thing I don't think people understand.

-Right, right, right. -It's like, I can shoot--

You can shoot eight threes and make four of them.

-And you're not in the flow state. -Right.

Subsequently, I can shoot eight threes and make four of them

and feel like every shot was effortless.

-Yep, yep. -There's a big difference to me.

I remember specific games where I would shoot

6-for-11 from three and be like,

"I didn't feel… It didn't feel right tonight."

Why is that? Because I understand exactly what you're saying.

-You know exactly what I'm saying? -Yeah. Because when you are in that…

when you are in that rim of shooting,

sometimes, it doesn't even feel right, and it goes in.

And you're like, "What the fuck was that?"

You just keep… you just keep going with it. Like…

It's like… I mean, the other night in Brooklyn, everyone-- I even--

I took a couple of threes in Brooklyn that

I don't take on a game-to-game basis.

-[JJ] Right corner gather. -Right corner gather.

[JJ] And then the left step-back gather.

-Yeah. -[JJ] Those were stupid.

-[LeBron] Yeah. I was just… -[JJ chuckles]

I was just feeling really good. You know I love New York, man.

Uh, Joe said… Joe Mazzulla said something the other day and I…

I-It was like… It's pertinent to this conversation, I think.

-He was talking about Al Horford. -Mm-hmm.

And how-- [clears throat] What it--

One of the reasons Al has had longevity and is still an impactful player

is because he has evolved with the game.

[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

[JJ] You think about Al early in his career with Atlanta.

-He's shooting heavy dose of mid-range. -[LeBron] Yep.

-[JJ] He's playing drop coverage. -Yep.

-Guarding 5s. -Yep.

Then he becomes a three-point shooter.

-He becomes a switch defender. -[LeBron] Switch guy. Yep.

-[JJ] He becomes a high-post hub. -Yep.

[JJ] Those years with IT, he was a high-post hub.

-Yep. -And so, in some ways,

the three-point shooting with you…

-you have evolved and adapted… -Yep.

-Yeah. -…with the game.

Has any coach, front office person, analytics person, like on staff,

have they ever came to you and talked to you

about analytics and shot profile with you?

-No. -Never had that discussion?

-Man, fuck no. -[chuckles]

No. I mean, do I-- I mean… Listen, do I--

Do you know… you know that those discussions are happening, though?

-Yeah, for sure. Of course, they are. -Certain players are told…

Oh, yeah, for sure, they do not take those shots anymore.

-Yes. -No, because I'm--

I've always been a very efficient basketball player.

I'm not a guy to go out and cast a bunch of shots.

I try to get, you know, I won't say the best shot,

because you can never get…

You know, every possession, you can't always get "the best shot,"

but I've always tried to figure out ways on the floor where I could…

that possession, maybe get the best shot.

And sometimes you may have to force one into the shot clock or,

you know, you may feel like you…

You know, in a good rhythm, you may force one, whatever the case may be,

but I've never been too much of a pull-up jump shooter off the dribble,

mid-range shooter. I did a little bit early on in my career.

-Early, yeah. -Early in my career, you know,

but as I've gotten older,

I've been more in the post,

mid-range as far as the Karl Malone area on the block.

Um, and now I've expanded my game to the three-point line

over the last few years where I feel like…

I'm pretty much unguardable.

Yeah. Yeah.

-I wish I knew what that feeling was like. -[chuckles]

My second year in Philly.

So my first year in Philly, I shot…

God, a fucking 42-point-something percent from three.

-Yeah. -And averaged a career high.

A measly 17, but I'm very proud of that 17 points a game.

And, you know, I was a guy…

Second half of my career, I had a home base in the off-season.

So I'd go train, and I wasn't around the team.

And I'd come back right before training camp.

-Yep. -Um…

When I got back that second year,

I had our analytics guy say, "I want to meet with you."

And he, like, showed me all these different charts and stats about, like,

if you stop shooting mid-range and start shooting more threes.

Because I… I'm gonna be honest with you, Bron.

I was a great mid-range shooter.

-A great mid-range shooter. -For sure.

And I-- Even I was told, "Shoot more threes."

So that second year, I took eight a game, which was my career high.

-Right. -And I averaged over 18 a game.

-But my efficiency dropped… -Right.

-…to 39.7% or whatever it was. -Yeah.

But it's still, mathematically-- This is the thing people don't understand.

Mathematically, it was better for me to shoot more at 39%

than shoot those middies at 49% or whatever I was doing.

And that's just a wild thing about the NBA.

Yeah. I definitely-- I mean, I can sit here and tell you that I definitely

have some of our coaches on our coaching staff…

-they want me to shoot more threes. -They're encouraging it.

Yeah, they're encouraging me to shoot more threes.

I can't do it. I can't get to that. I can't…

-I can't get to that-- -Is it a pride thing?

-Is it an ego thing? -No, it's not an ego thing.

-It's not an ego thing. It's like… -[chuckling]

Am I… I'm not putting enough pressure on the defense

if I'm shooting 12 to 14 threes a game.

You know, if I'm shooting 12, 14 threes a game,

I feel like I can hit six or seven of them,

you know, if I'm fucking off-off, then, you know, three or four of them.

But I can shoot high clip at--

If I'm shooting 14 a game, I'm gonna get in the rhythm,

but I'm not putting pressure on the defense, and that's not me.

-Right. -I gotta put pressure on the defense.

Like, if we have the guys already on our team shooting a bunch of threes,

which is okay, like, I love that.

There has to be some pressure on the rim.

I have to put some fear in the defense that…

"You're not about to make me just shoot all jump shots,

even if I'm shooting it well."

So, it's a great point, because I think certain players,

and you're one of them that can do it with your drives.

Luka, same way.

James in Houston, same way with his ISOs and his drives.

-Duncan Robinson, a different way… -Mm-hmm.

But certain players can cause an overreaction…

-Oh, for sure. -…and I want to get into that later on,

but that's where this conversation is going.

But I wanna do some stats first.

-I just want to read you some stats, okay? -[laughs]

So, in 2013-2014,

which was the first year of the tracking era,

uh, league average 21.5 three-point attempts per game.

This year, it's 35 three-point attempts per game.

-35. -35.

Almost 14 more threes a game. Those numbers are as of April 3rd.

Uh, the Rockets in 2013-2014 took 26.6 threes a game.

That was number one.

Grizzlies took… the grit-and-grind Grizzlies took 14 threes a game.

They were last in the league.

Uh, this year, uh…

the Nuggets are the number 30 team in three-point attempts per game.

And they shoot 31 a game.

-You guys are 29. -29.

-Orlando's 28. -I was about to say, we're right there.

-I was about to say we're right there. -Pistons are 27.

-Um, so, obviously, threes have gone up. -Yeah, for sure.

-Not all threes are created equal, though. -No.

Here's some other data that I just-- I love this.

There's 22 players this year that have taken 150 or more threes off the dribble.

Luka's number one. He's taken 497.

-Again, as of April 3rd. -[snickering]

In 2014-2015,

only four players took a 150 threes or more off the dribble.

The interesting thing is…

there's been no change in effective field goal percentage from those numbers.

-Yeah. -It's still right around 55%.

Pick-and-roll, it's literally the same thing.

16 players have taken 150 or more pick-and-roll threes this year.

Luka's number one at 361.

Six players took 150 threes or more in pick-and-roll in 2014-2015.

The effective field goal percentage is the same.

-So by prioritizing the three… -Yeah.

-…offenses have become more efficient. -[clears throat] Yeah.

What does the threat…

This is the overreaction part.

What does the threat of Steph Curry in a high pick-and-roll,

Damian Lillard in a high pick-and-roll,

Trae Young in a high pick-and-roll,

Luka in a high pick and roll… What does that do?

How does that bend the defense? How does that cause the overreaction?

Two on the ball.

It's a numbers game. Two on the ball.

If you've got great screen-setters,

Draymond, Capela, you know,

whoever Luka is gonna have,

either if it was Dwight Powell, now, you know, Daniel Gafford.

-Lively. -Lively. He's learned it quick.

-Yeah, he has. -He's learned it quick.

If you have a great screen-setter, and you have a laser like that,

who shoots, like you said,

over 300 off the dribble pick-and-roll threes,

that's the chain reaction.

That's why you have all these guys that are shooting career higher percentages

with these lasers than they ever do with anybody else,

because it's the chain reaction.

The numbers game is automatic.

If you're not up on the screen, you're late.

You're gonna have two on the ball, and those guys are good enough,

great enough, to play in the pocket.

Now it's four-on-three.

And we talked about this last time.

Draymond Green's biggest asset offensively for Golden State

is his ability to get Steph open, Klay open,

but then play in the pocket where his asset is four-on-three,

and now his IQ kicks in.

That's the threat.

If you can't cause a trigger…

then everyone's gonna be at home.

That's the name of the game. How can you cause a trigger?

Pick-and-roll, pin-down, DHOs, split game.

Whatever it is, whatever your portfolio of your team and your player,

how can you cause the trigger?

Because once the trigger happened,

-that's when you become successful. -Yeah.

Last year in the playoffs, Anthony Davis,

who you give glowing reviews on this podcast

about his ability to be in multiple places at once.

Mm-hmm.

Golden State's strategy became high pick-and-roll with Steph Curry.

-Mm-hmm. -We have to get Anthony Davis…

-[LeBron] Away from the basket. -…away from the basket.

-[LeBron chuckling] -Right.

So going through that, and those adjustments that you guys made

throughout that series,

because I think an important part of this too was,

they essentially were playing two non-shooters with Draymond and Kevon.

-Mm-hmm. -And then to open up space,

it was something that in terms of volume,

Steve Kerr and Steph Curry had never ran that amount of volume of pick and rolls…

-Right. Mm-hmm. -…prior to that series.

So what were sort of the adjustments that you guys made

once they had success with that?

[sighs] So we had to start switching.

Um, because we won.

[stutters] Like I always keep saying…

once Draymond gets into the pocket,

it is very, very, very hard to now reel it back.

You can't allow Day-Day to play in the pocket because he's too damn good.

And also what you can't not do, at the same time,

if you're the big, X5 or X4, and you're guarding the pick-and-roll,

you can't be late on Steph Curry's pick-and-roll.

Because it's gonna be a great screen and Steph is coming off clean.

If you have the personnel,

which obviously a lot of teams don't, that's why

not many teams have beat Golden State in the playoffs, in a playoff series.

You have the ability to switch.

You talk about being late on a Steph Curry pick-and-roll.

-[chuckling] -So this was…

I fucking hated this play.

-[laughing] -I hated this play.

And when I was on the Clippers, they would just kill us with this.

So this oftentimes would be a guy… let's say it's Klay.

-Mm-hmm. -[JJ] So you're not gonna switch.

-This is the 5 man. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] He's gonna set a down screen at this angle.

-[LeBron] Try to clip the 5. -Try to clip the 5.

-X5 or X4. -We've talked about this before.

-Yep. -Bigs are terrible navigating screens.

For sure. The worst.

So all of a sudden, Draymond, Andrew Bogut…

-[LeBron] Flying. -They've now created separation up here.

[LeBron] And they're flying. Yes.

[JJ] This defender right here…

And again, I'm sorry for drawing the X's as offensive players,

but it's just how I do it. This defender is naked.

-He's on an island. -[LeBron] He doesn't know what's going on.

Meanwhile, he's like this the whole time trying to guard the ball.

-So now this big is behind this play. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] He's five, six steps behind this play.

As Steph comes off here, again, he can shoot this three.

Right? He's got the separation required.

But oftentimes what would happen is this overreaction from the big to get out.

-Steph does like this. -Yes.

And just drops it in the pocket.

Drop it in the pocket. It's a four-on-three.

[LeBron] Yep. And now Klay has worked his way out here.

You're afraid to leave Klay.

And you got Andre Iguodala, Andrew Wiggins, Kuminga.

-You know what's going on. -Yeah. So--

-Obviously Steph can shoot this three. -Yep.

But as this big is frantically trying to get out here.

Yeah, he's done.

[JJ] The overreaction to the threat of this.

-Yep. -[JJ] He's gonna overcommit.

Whether it's a shot fake or whether it's just getting out.

This defender right here…

-He's chasing. -He's chasing over.

[JJ] So now the big has a free run.

-Yep. -[JJ] And pocket pass.

[LeBron] Draymond, pocket pass, lob to one of those athletes.

You know. And it's over with.

I mean, this is the stuff-- This is the stuff though that

in different ways, uh, you know,

-Damian Lillard gets this. -Mm-hmm.

-[JJ] Trae Young gets this. -Mm-hmm.

-[JJ] It's… -Yep.

I'm sure there's other guys I'm forgetting.

-Luka. -It's this idea of…

-these high pick and rolls. -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

[JJ] Because now we see like…

-I'm gonna draw it correctly this time. -You have a dry erase board today.

Now we see… Now we see pick-up points just inside half court.

-[LeBron] Yep. -Again, you're asking…

-[LeBron] You're asking-- -First of all, you're asking this guard…

-[LeBron] Yeah. -…to navigate.

-They call it the four-point line now. -Yeah. And secondly…

[LeBron] Bigs are not accustomed. They can't.

Here's the-- This is the thing that I just want to point out.

Because I was talking to somebody about this the other day.

[LeBron chuckling]

And it goes back to, like, the 5 out concept.

-Yep. -It's like--

I love watching basketball, period.

And I love watching any era.

I watch games on YouTube.

It's like I wish I could have seen some of these players in person.

[laughing]

They're educational and informative, LeBron.

-They're educational and informative. -[sighs, laughs]

Like… we would never see this where,

you know, an offensive team is going this way

and two players run to the block.

-[LeBron] That's over. -We would never see that. Right?

-[JJ] So now… -Yeah. That's over with.

-[JJ] That was the requirement. -Yeah, it was.

[JJ] Like, for a big. This is the area.

Even early in my career, this was the requirement.

-That's the area you have to cover. -[LeBron] Yep.

Last year's playoff series against the Warriors is a great example.

You're now asking Anthony Davis to cover all over here.

-[LeBron] Mm-hmm. -And by the way,

we need you to get back to protect the rim.

The point in all this is, again, going back to just spacing and 5 out.

-Yeah. -Okay. So you're taking…

Sorry, I'm oscillating between X and O's, offense and defense.

-This is… This is X5 right here. -Yep.

He's got an O and an X. But if you're taking…

In your case, by the way, because I've looked up the data on this.

You're taking a top five to ten rim defender…

-Yeah. -…all the way out of here.

You're then relying on some of… No offense.

…some of the worst rim defenders by percentage…

-[LeBron] For sure. For sure. -…in the NBA this season.

That is the challenge of a modern defense.

That is.

Because there's enough guys, as I just went through this,

the numbers, there's enough guys night-to-night

that are shooting out of high pick-and-roll.

Yeah. And Dallas have two of them.

Yeah.

Okay. Luka comes off the pick-and-roll. The big's up.

And then he swings it to Kyrie.

The big got to get all over there and do the same thing.

-Yeah. -That's the challenge.

-Yeah. -That's what Boston is so good at.

That's why you're afraid to even have a big up

instead of just switching everything.

But then they have so many great one-on-one players.

-Yeah. -You know, so it's like, what do you do?

Like, with Trae Young, it's like,

you don't really want Capela to get behind the defense,

'cause that's his niche.

He blocks shots, and on the other hand,

he creates havoc by getting a good screen, using his speed to either--

Really, sometimes he don't even screen

because he knows the big is gonna be up so I'm gonna slip behind the defense.

-[JJ] Yeah. -You know, so it's like…

That is the difficult challenge for coaches.

Here's another interesting thing that I found.

You need the other pen. Are you gonna…

-You going here or here? -I'm gonna go here.

-Oh, you're going here? -Yeah, yeah.

Here's another interesting thing I found about threes.

Um, so, let's call 18 to 24 seconds on the shot clock.

-Okay. Yeah. -Let's call that early shot clock, okay?

First six seconds of the shot clock,

um, in 2014-2015,

the average team, for this season, took 322 total threes

in the first six seconds of the shot clock.

Okay. What is this? You said '13-'14?

-Yeah, '14-'15. -'14-'15.

Five teams attempted below 200 total threes for the season

in the first six seconds of the shot clock.

-Yep. -Um, last season's data,

that number was up by 100 total threes.

Basically, 420 total threes.

Yep.

[JJ] Half the league attempted 400 or more total threes

in the first six seconds of the shot clock.

That's the other thing that has changed the most,

is when you get a defensive stop--

And I don't care where the fuck you are on the court,

when you get this stop, where are people running?

Yeah. "Run wide." That's all you hear.

-Run wide to the three-point line. -Run wide. That's it.

Okay? Right? So these early… early shot clock threes,

um, you know what the effective field goal percentage on that is?

-Same thing, 55%. -Really?

It's a good shot.

-It's a good shot. -I can't wrap my head around it.

Am I too old school?

-[JJ sighs] -I don't want to say old school,

but am I too still in my ways of…

[JJ] Okay. Hold on a second. Hold on.

-I'm gonna give you something here. -…zero pass shots?

I'm gonna give you something here, though. I'm gonna give you something.

-You've got guys running wide. -Correct.

[JJ] Running around at the corner.

-This is you with the ball. -Yeah.

-This is Giannis with the ball. -Yeah.

-This is Ja Morant with the ball. -Mm-hmm.

-Space. -What does that give you?

So much space.

[LeBron] Early attacks.

[JJ] There's a reason that you motherfuckers

are averaging like 10 fast break points a game.

-[LeBron] Early attacks. -Yeah.

[LeBron] Somebody told me I was second in fast break point the other day.

Who did we just play? Oh, no, it was, uh…

It was Toronto. One of their players said,

"Man, what the hell are you doing? How are you second?"

'Cause they-- I think they played the night before

so they had a walk-through on their court.

And as soon as the court opened, I get on the court,

and one of their players is like,

"How the hell are you second at fast break points?"

It's because this is where DLo's running, dude.

And this is where Austin's running.

-DLo likes to stop a little early. -He's like a break guy.

Yeah, he's a break guy. He loves to break.

But definitely, Rui, AR… Yep.

TP, they definitely get into the corners.

-So the volume of threes… -Yeah.

The volume of threes.

Because we're talking about not all threes are created equal.

But in some ways, the types of threes that offenses are generating are created equal.

-Correct. -They have essentially the same value.

If we're looking at it through analytics,

these type of threes have the same value.

Look, the last one I want to get into

before we get into just some ways to generate threes for catch-and-shoot guys.

The other one, and I don't have the data in front of me right now,

but I looked it up in January, is…

We've seen it. James Harden in ISO.

-Luka in ISO. -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

-Kyrie in ISO. Right? -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

The step back three. The individual create-- Steph Curry.

The individually created step back three.

Going back to the same tracking era.

Last 10 years…

Roughly 33% is the average value--

You know, average shooting percentage of a step back three 10 years ago.

Now it's a little over 35%.

So it's gone up two percentage points.

-Yep. -And the volume has gone up.

-Mm-hmm. -Guys are able and willing…

-[chuckles] -Jayson Tatum.

[JJ] They're able and willing to take that shot.

Not only more frequently, but at a higher clip.

I'm trying to explain here why offenses are good.

Offenses are good. And very hard--

[JJ] This shot is worth 1.5 more than this shot.

If you can make it.

-"If" you can make it. -If you can make it.

So what happens when…

No, the value of this versus the value of this versus the value of this.

-Right. -[LeBron] So what happens when…

-[JJ] Why do you think you guys-- -…i.e. Houston Rockets

missed 25 or 28 straight threes.

Have you seen it happen since?

-[chuckles] -I have not.

I have not.

-How many did they miss in a row? -27.

-27 straight threes? -27.

-And they kept shooting them. -Yeah.

I-- I--

It's not like all of them was only three-point shooters.

It's not like they have fucking…

five Craig Hodgeses on their team.

Or five Steve Kerrs on the floor.

Where that's all they can do is shoot threes.

They had guys that can--

Eric Gordon, you can get into the paint.

James Harden, you can get into the paint.

-But I-- You're making a valid point. -But why?

You're making a valid point. And I want to acknowledge your point.

You still have to be a basketball player.

-Thank you. That's all. -You still have to read the game.

-That's all I ask. -You still have to understand…

-That's all I ask. -…time and score.

So…

-There's a time and place where analytics… -There's a-- Yeah.

...should be like, "Get the fuck out."

-Yeah. -Okay?

There was a coach that told me this year… He's like, you know…

He talks all the time about like… "Managing the game."

And he's over there, and he's looking at the…

At the box score during timeouts.

And he's looking at how many threes have we made and attempted

versus how many threes the other team has made and attempted.

What is their star player shooting from two?

-Mm-hmm. -What is the time and score?

Do I need to double?

All of these things are being, like,

-equated or calculated in real time. -Yeah.

So it-- There is some game management involved. It's not just like…

So you're telling them I need to shoot more threes?

-Is that what you're telling me? -You're doing fine.

-[laughs] -You're doing fine.

But I would say this-- LeBron, you guys…

Your offense for the first part of the season was not a good offense.

No. We couldn't shoot. We couldn't make it.

The second you started making threes…

-We couldn't make it. -…you became a top five or six offense.

Yeah. But we always said, like, the law of averages

is going to even itself out.

The first month and a half, two months,

we couldn't hit the side of a fucking cow's ass from three-point.

We couldn't. So, you know--

But like you just said, we're 29th in three-points attempted,

but people are complaining…

why we're top five in free throw attempts.

-Yeah. -Because that's what we do.

I think there's-- Every team, you have to coach differently.

-Every team based on personnel. Right? -Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

The fact that all of a sudden, DLo became a high-volume,

high-efficiency three-point shooter halfway through a season,

-started back in January. -Yeah.

-That adds value to the offense. -Yeah, for sure.

Your free-throw thing, I'm not gonna get into the discourse right now

about the foul thing.

But there are certain teams that foul more than others

and there are certain teams that put pressure on the rim more than others.

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

And if you can not foul,

and you can get to the free-throw line…

that creates an advantage.

In the same way that making and taking more threes

versus making and taking less threes creates an advantage.

Well, I mean, Mike D'Antoni was onto something.

He knew before this shit even got cracking like it is now.

Well, give Daryl more. Give Daryl some credit.

[LeBron grunts]

-I went in-- -You give Daryl some credit.

I went in for a shoot-around one year.

-This was like early, early stuff, right? -Yeah.

-And this is public. So this is not like… -Yeah.

But I just remember going into a shoot around one year

and for some reason-- Oh, I know what it was. Keith.

Keith let me use the cold tub in their locker room…

And after shoot-around--

And I go in and I walk by the locker room,

and they had like LED boards above their locker

with like their true shooting percentage.

Like, all that shit.

And I was like, "Oh, man, just a constant reminder

of whether or not you suck or whether you're good."

That's amazing.

Get your ass on the practice court right now and get some fucking shots.

-Ah! -That's funny. That's good.

Last type. Last type of three.

We've talked about getting two on the ball, four-on-three.

-A lot of times that creates swing-swing. -Yep.

-Get in the paint. Draymond kicks it out. -Yep.

-Those are catch-and-shoot threes. -Yep.

-Standstill catch-and-shoot threes. -Yep.

I wanna talk about a different type of catch-and-shoot threes,

and that is the movement catch-and-shoot three.

Let's, hypothetically say, I'm on your team.

-Yep. -And…

-I'm 4-for-5 from three. -Hmm.

It's the second quarter. Under three minute timeout.

We've got a nine-point lead,

trying to turn it to double figures, our ball.

You've got to drop an ATO for me.

-This is the ATO? -Yeah.

We're a pretty good team? I'm on your team?

-Yes. -Okay. Yeah.

[laughing]

-Okay. Um-- -And we have a good screening 5 man.

We have a good screening 5 man. Okay. Perfect.

-You want to draw it up? -Yeah, sure.

Okay, um… Let's put…

-I'll be here. -[JJ] All right.

-Yep. We'll put the 5 man here. -[JJ] Okay.

Um, you know what? No, I'm gonna start over.

-I'm gonna put you here, JJ, to start. -[JJ] All right.

[LeBron] I'm gonna put the 5 man here,

same side as the ball is being taken out of.

-[JJ] Okay. -So that's the 1 or the 2.

-[JJ] All right. -And then 2 man is right here.

-[JJ] Well, I'm the 2 man. -Okay. So put the 3 there.

-[JJ] 3 is there. -All right.

So on a slap of the ball, simultaneously,

um, JJ, you're gonna come to the ball.

-You're 4-for-5, right? -Yeah.

Okay. So, the 5 man is gonna screen you and bring you to the ball.

-[JJ] Okay. -At the same time,

the 3 man is gonna set a cross screen for me and go underneath.

-[JJ] Okay. -All right? As soon as that happens,

the 1 is gonna throw it over the top to me.

I have to catch it over the top.

And as soon as I catch it over the top,

because your man is so afraid of you coming towards the ball…

what is the first thing a defender does when a ball…

-[JJ] Turns his head. -Turns his freaking head.

As soon as that happens, re-screen for you, Jay.

[JJ] Yep. Victory.

[LeBron] Victory. We're gonna get you a great victory.

-No, it's Brad Stevens. Victory. -Oh, that's what it's called.

-Yeah. -I've run it before, too.

[JJ] Who'd you run it with? Do you remember who the shooter was?

[LeBron] Um, I ran it for Danny Green before.

-Yes. -Yes.

Because Kerr ran it for Klay for a game-winner.

I can't remember who it was last year or this year.

[LeBron] Yeah. I like that one.

-[JJ] This is a great one. -I have another one.

-Chris Finch loves this one. -Yeah, I have another one.

I don't know that he's run it. But he showed me this

-when I was with him in New Orleans. -Um…

You take the ball out now.

Uh, 5.

Me.

4.

And the 3.

[JJ] I'm playing 1.

[LeBron] At the slap of the ball, pin-down for me.

-Okay. -[LeBron] I catch it.

As soon as that happened, I'm with the 4

to work his way underneath and just stay there.

Just look very… Like he don't know what the hell is going on.

Obviously, you already know what's about to happen.

[JJ] I know what's gonna happen.

[LeBron] I bring the ball across. This guy, X3, slips it.

-Ghost screen. -[LeBron] Yep.

I take off all the way around. Here comes the Hammer.

-[JJ] Let me get everybody set up. -Yes, sir. Get everybody set up.

Yep. JJ is there.

The 4 has worked his way underneath.

-Yep. I've taken off. -[JJ] 3 is here.

[LeBron] Yep. 3 is there. I'm taking off at the same time.

He turns around. Your guy is paying attention to the damn ball.

I'm gonna set a nice hammer for you.

-I wish it was flipped so you can-- -[JJ] You know what's funny?

You can go left right here on the inside and--

When I ran Hammer Action, I liked shooting it this way.

-Really? Why? -Yeah.

-I'm not sure. -[laughs]

I'm dead serious, bro.

-I'm not sure. Well, we've-- -Really?

-We've already-- Right. -I like the defense on this side.

You didn't get no leg kicker on this one, though, on this side.

-You didn't get a leg kicker on this side. -You know what I'm thinking about?

I think one of the reasons…

-one of the reasons-- -Those are two great plays, by the way.

The 5, as you drove, would dive towards the rim.

-I need to draw the 5. -Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Um…

What's interesting, when you think about this--

-So if you remember San Antonio… -Yeah.

-…they would post Boris Diaw right here. -[LeBron] Correct.

[JJ] And he would legitimately drive…

-[LeBron] Jump! And jump out of bounds! -…and jump out of bounds.

-[LeBron] Yes, he would do it. -And they would do it with Manu, too,

but Manu would do it over here because he's left-handed.

So I think that's one of the reasons I always ran it this way when we run it.

And I think that we stole that from San Antonio at one point.

I don't remember what year it was, but Mike Dunleavy was on our team.

It's one of my--

I think it's one of my greatest assists I've ever had.

And we ran a Hammer Action for Mike Dunleavy versus Orlando,

I believe it was, at home in Cleveland.

And I wrapped it around baseline for Dunleavy to hit a three.

It was kind of, you know-- It was pretty cool. I like that.

-Hammer Action. Hammer Action. -Hammer Action. Yes.

-You see it all the time, endgame. -Mm-hmm.

And a lot of times teams will run it…

-Yep. -[JJ] Um….

As a matter of fact…

[LeBron] Come to the step up first.

[JJ] I'm gonna actually just kind of discombobulate things.

But teams will run it,

we'll set a step up or whatever, and you just turn the corner.

Let's say this guy cuts the middle, 5 man peels out,

times it, and then I get the Hammer Action.

-Yep. -It's that weak side.

I don't even know how to describe the screen

because it's not really a back screen.

It's a hammer screen. I guess it's…

When I was in Cleveland, we would have…

we would have the guy that we wanted to catch the ball on the hammer screen,

-he would take it out. -Yep.

So-- And then we would have the other shooter, you know, in this angle.

So, they would actually--

He would actually slip this screen.

And the shooter would go here. And my first look is the shooter here.

And if he's not open,

then I have the other shooter 'cause the 5 is trailing.

He's gonna clean that up for the other shooter coming all the way around.

-Right. -So, I will look at the Hammer Action.

If he's not there, you know, you do the whole fundamental…

No, I know exactly what you're saying. The other thing that happens here.

So, let's say this is you driving for the Hammer Action.

-Yep. -Uh…

Let's just say it's the one that you played this little Pistol 21 Action with.

-Yeah. -[JJ] Um…

[JJ] And I've taken the ball out and come off here.

-[LeBron] Yep. -The other shooter is right here.

So, what teams will do as this screen happens,

let's say the 5 man, you know, after he sets the Hammer,

he comes and gets up here to set the second one.

Uh, what teams will do sometimes is top-lock this.

This slot cut actually ends up being open.

Or sometimes, depending on where the 5 or the 4 sets this hammer screen,

right, he just-- It's a quick slip to the basket.

So team, if they know they're switching or they know--

-They got their radar up for Hammer. -[LeBron] Yeah.

They will actually-- This could be the first option, this slip.

And I'll even take it even further, what you're saying.

You're down three.

If you get a guy that slips to the rim, I guarantee,

even if the coach has said in the timeout, "No threes."

If you get one guy to slip to the rim,

there will be one guy that will have a reaction.

You get one guy, you throw the ball to him, slip into the rim,

there's gonna be one defender,

-X1 or 5… -Yeah.

…that will relax.

And you just use that as a, "Oh, I got you,"

-just to kick out for a three. -Right.

When you've told everybody in the timeout,

"Everybody stay the fuck home, we're up three,

"if they get a two, who--" Okay, all right.

-That's the reaction of watching the ball. -That is.

-Turn your head. -Yeah.

-He made the pass. -Exactly.

All right. Here's another one.

I actually thought you were gonna draw this one up.

-Mm-hmm. -But it's fine.

Uh… I'll get to Paul George in a second.

-You're taking it out. 5 man. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] Uh… Let's say this is the 3, this is the 4,

uh, and this is me.

Your son's team, they're running this type of shit already?

Yeah.

Oh, I'm gonna draw one of my favorite plays in a second.

And we run this, literally.

So slap of the ball, 4 man, he's gone.

-Yep. -[JJ] He's gone over here.

-Yep. -[JJ] He empties out.

-Yep. -[JJ] Okay.

Uh, ball goes into 5, passes to 3.

Is this What The Fuck?

[sighs] Is that what you call it?

-Rip screen to the pin-down? -Yeah.

-I call it Indiana. After Paul George. -Yeah. Yeah.

[LeBron] I think Phil Jackson and those guys called it What The Fuck.

[JJ] I'm being guarded by probably a 6'4" guy.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -Probably not the second best defender.

You're getting guarded by, you know, whoever.

So I'm gonna set this rip screen right here.

[LeBron] -Yes. -They don't want to switch.

[LeBron] Nope.

[JJ] So potentially you get a lob, layup, dunk, whatever.

[LeBron] Yep. Your guy's gonna help you just a little bit.

[JJ] As soon as that happens, I come off the clock.

I think Phil and those guys called it What The Fuck. You call it Indiana?

-[JJ] I called it Indiana. -Yeah.

[JJ] Brett Brown used to run this for me. And I would--

And you know what's weird? I would actually be in both positions.

-[LeBron] Mm-hmm. -So let's say this is Robert Covington.

-[LeBron] Yep. -And this is Joel.

-So when the ball would go over there… -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

[JJ] I would act like Cove would come try to set this rip screen.

I would act like I would come off and just push off and come off Joel.

I'm glad you said push off, too. That was--

-It's very key to the viewers. -It is definitely.

-It is very key. -The other thing that happens…

-What about Clipper Down? -Oh, we're gonna get to that soon.

-[laughs] -The other thing that was gonna happen,

let's say that's-- Let's say I'm just… I'm still playing, somehow.

So I come-- And what do I do? I slip out of there.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -Right?

I act like I'm gonna set the rip screen and slip out of there.

-[LeBron] Yep. -I get it that way. I think...

Don't quote me on this, the reason I call it Indiana

-is 'cause of Brett Brown. -Yeah.

But I think the reason Brett Brown calls it Indiana is because of Paul George.

-Really? -[JJ] I was at the…

I was at a Clippers game with my kids over spring break.

They were playing the Sixers...

and he took it out, and they ran it.

-And I was like, "Oh, it's Indiana." -[LeBron] Paul George took it out.

[LeBron] And he faked going…

[JJ] And made a three at the top of the key. Right side.

[LeBron] He faked like he was gonna go to the rip screen and just bounce back.

-[JJ] It's a great play. -Yeah. Yeah.

[JJ] It's a great play.

Um, all right. Here's one for you.

So, this is CP right here.

-[LeBron] Yep. -This is Klay.

-[LeBron] Mm-hmm. -And this is, uh…

-Trayce Jackson-Davis. -Yep.

-All right. So if CP comes off of Klay. -Yep.

[JJ] And comes off of Trayce Jackson-Davis,

what is gonna happen?

-A re-screen for Klay. -Yeah.

-[JJ] Yeah. Oklahoma. -Yeah. Yep. Oklahoma. Oklahoma Small.

-[JJ] Or Oklahoma Small. -Yeah.

-[JJ] I call it both things. -Yeah. It's okay.

-[JJ] I call it both things. -We're talking the same language. Yes.

[JJ] My assumption here also is that we call it Oklahoma because of Kevin Durant.

Really?

I assume so. I could be wrong on that.

No, I mean, there's no other reason to call it Oklahoma.

It's not like, I mean-- They didn't have a team there before.

You know, we're not gonna use the word hate.

We're not gonna use the word hate today. We're not gonna use hate--

You and I dislike-- And as an offensive player in this position,

'cause I ran this a ton in New Orleans,

and we had variants of this with the Clippers that I'll get to in a second.

But if you're… [scoffs]

if you're guarding Klay Thompson in this spot…

[LeBron] Yep. And you're not switching--

[JJ] And you're-- Well, hold on, you can do whatever you want.

Let's say you do switch it,

like, why are you not getting to a top lock?

It's 2024.

This is-- If Klay Thompson sets a pick,

he's gonna get another pick.

Why are you not top? It drives me crazy.

-'Cause they don't watch basketball. -[laughing]

It's that simple. I've realized...

that they only watch highlights,

and they don't watch basketball.

If Klay is underneath the charge block…

Are you thinking he's gonna stay down there?

End of every quarter.

End of every fucking quarter.

-Dude! -[chuckling]

[JJ] What's going to happen right here as CP comes off the screen?

[LeBron] Pin in.

Why would nobody stay on this side and force his ass the other way?

[JJ] I don't know. I'm not-- I'm sorry, Klay,

I'm not trying to give away all the secrets,

but it is on the scouting report, and it is on film. So...

It's on the scouting report, it's on film.

-It's worked for ten years. -Yeah.

It's on the championship DVD

that comes out after the season when you win it.

They don't watch basketball.

All right, so Markkanen and-- Both Klay, they do this one a lot, too.

Who, Lauri?

Lauri Markkanen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

-One of my favorites. -He's unbelievable.

He's been a LeBron supporter for a long time.

-He wears my shoes. -Does he, really?

Yeah, until this year. I think Nike came out with a new shoe and then they…

We got some talks to do out there in the Nike world.

But I love that guy.

-He's so good. -We'll run it with Klay first.

-We're gonna say this is Looney. -[LeBron] Yep.

-And this is Steph. -[LeBron] Yep.

So... You know what?

I'll go with how they're playing now. This is Draymond.

[LeBron] Yeah.

So this is essentially same sort of idea, Oklahoma.

-But Klay Thompson's the second screener. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] So as Steph comes off this screen…

-[LeBron] Yep. -And comes to Klay…

-[LeBron] Yep. -He slips.

-[LeBron] Yep. -And Draymond or Kavon,

either flares or they dive.

[LeBron] Yep.

-[JJ] Uh, and he's empty side. -Yep.

-All the room in the world. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] Steph brings it over here. Just a little skip pass.

And if he doesn't have the three,

Draymond dives to the post.

Throw it to the post, and we go back to…

-Split post. -...split post.

[JJ] Markkanen will also be in this position.

So this is JC, John Collins, and let's say this is Keyonte George.

-[LeBron] Yep. -Markkanen will be here

and he'll do the same thing. He'll slip, get to space.

And that's very difficult because you got JC as the first screener

setting a flare for Markkanen that's getting guarded by X4 or 5.

Yep. We already established that bigs cannot navigate screens.

[JJ] Yeah.

[LeBron] That's not their job. But they need to learn.

[JJ] This was a favorite one of mine.

So this is a slight variation.

I think this is called Finland.

Okay. Because why?

-Maybe because of Markkanen. -[both laugh]

I don't know.

But in my edit, it was called Finland, and I was like…

It has to only be because of Markkanen.

-That's it. -[JJ] I didn't call it Finland.

-Oh, man. This is BG. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] We're gonna say this is Matt Barnes or Luc Mbah a Moute.

-[LeBron] Yep. -This is DJ.

-[LeBron] Yep. -Uh, this is CP.

So again, it's the same thing. It's a Double Drag.

-[LeBron] Yep. -Right? But as that Double Drag happens…

-[LeBron] Yep. You send the flare. -I send a rip screen.

-The rip screen for the lob. -[JJ] For BG.

-And then DJ turns around. -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

-Cleans me up. Right? -[LeBron] Yep. Yep.

-We got a lot of action out of that. -[LeBron] Peja.

-Peja. -It's kind of a version of Peja.

-Is that what you call a Peja? -Yeah. Because of Peja Stojaković.

-I figured. -Yeah.

-I figured. -Yeah.

Because I believe he used to run that same set.

Rip-- See way up to the post.

And then Vladi would come and…

Or Brad Miller or… You know. Whatever.

All right. Basic stuff. But…

-We talking basic stuff now? -No.

-Uh-uh... -Yeah. We can start.

No. This-- I'm not saying that stuff's all basic, but…

-No, it's not. -The most basic way to get…

Let's say it's Markkanen over here in the corner.

Um, the most basic way, obviously, is just a pin away.

-This is a pin away. For sure. Yep. -[JJ] Right.

So the guard's over here.

1's over here. Just a pin away.

Um…

And I think teams and their defense…

-Mm-hmm. -…varies so much now.

Like when I played, let's say, and this was DJ,

and CP would give him this action, the away action.

-Yeah. Go get him. Go get him. Yep. -Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[JJ] Two things would happen. I would either get top-locked…

-[LeBron] Yep. -…or if they were on my outside shoulder,

-they would lock and trail… -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] …um, as this pin away happened,

-and I would curl. -[LeBron] Right.

[JJ] Um, it's pretty simple stuff.

What happens now, though, and I think a lot of teams do…

is the screen-to-screen, the guy screening,

-it's just, positionally, it's different. -Yep.

[JJ] So this could be, uh... Lauri Markkanen,

-and this could be Jordan Clarkson. -[LeBron] That's small. Mm-hmm.

[JJ] Right. Uh, the other day,

this was, I think it was Jaylen Brown.

-This was against the Pelicans. -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

[JJ] And this was Kristaps,

and Valančiūnas was in the middle of paint.

-[LeBron] They set a flare for him. -And Kristaps went,

and they top-locked, and JB just sent a flare.

-Just screened in. -[LeBron] Yep. Screened in.

-And KP got a wide-open three. -[LeBron] Yep.

So I think the away stuff, teams don't run it as…

like, what'd you guys do for Korver when you had him in Cleveland?

A lot of that.

-A lot of away. -Yep. A lot of away.

Early in transition, go get him.

You know, you bringing down one side of the biggest trail and go get him.

Early wides.

Do you remember in Atlanta with that team…

how high they would set those away screens?

Yeah, he wouldn't even cross half court. They was already going to get him.

-[JJ] Bro. -Mm-hmm.

[JJ] Because what happens, like…

-I'm guarding Kyle Korver. -Yep.

And scouting report rule…

-You lock and trail. -Chase him over the top.

You chase him over the top. All the way at half fucking court.

-Right. -Right. They don't want you to shoot it.

[JJ] And so they would literally set these picks.

[LeBron] At an angle, too. Not just straight across,

-because the guy can… -[JJ] No, no, no.

-They'd come down at this angle. -[LeBron] Yes, at an angle.

-Right here. This high in transition. -[LeBron] Yep. That high.

-Yep. Yep. -It was insane.

It was insane. That's when they had like four All-Stars that year.

-Um… -It was insane.

Norm Powell, by the way. Here's another example.

-Norm Powell, Stagger Away. -Yep.

-[JJ] That's an easy one. -Yep.

-Stagger Away just means there's two. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] Two screens. Norm Powell would get that.

-Houston would run that for Eric Gordon. -[LeBron] Yep.

[JJ] That's how he got a lot of his threes…

-[LeBron] Yep. -…um, off the move.

[JJ] And then, of course, which, again, I hate to use Lauri Markannen again,

but the Jazz are a great example of this.

Um, let's say this is Clarkson and this is, uh...

John Collins.

Um, you use the shooter as the first screener.

-Yep. -He goes to pin.

-[LeBron] He curls. -He curls.

-And then he go clean you up. -[JJ] And then he goes to clean them up.

[LeBron chuckling]

-I say all this, by the way… -[laughing]

I say all this because…

I went on a podcast a couple weeks ago.

And I got...

I don't wanna say accused,

but I was referred to as a catch-and-shoot player.

I was referred to as a catch-and-shoot player.

And when I think of catch-and-shoot players,

-I think of standstill guys. -Mm-hmm.

But I guess there's the movement part.

All of this action, all of this stuff, and as teams are getting smarter,

the Will Hardys of the world, the Joe Mazzullas of the world,

as they're getting smarter about how teams are matching up,

when and where to screen,

it just makes it harder to guard off of all of these off-ball actions.

Yeah. And you're dealing with the best players in the world.

The greatest players in the world.

And if you happen to get not only the greatest talent in the world on your team,

if you're able to get some guys that have some

IQ about it as well, it unlocks even more.

We got one more. And then we'll sort of move on.

Because you brought it up earlier.

This was my favorite play that I've ever had ran for.

Yeah. Clipper Down. Yeah, for sure.

-15 Down. -That's what y'all called it?

We called it Clipper Down in Cleveland. We stole it.

After me? Well, after us.

-After us. -After you.

-And we stayed with the JR Smith. -[chuckles]

[JJ] Uh, so this is just 15,

which is a 1-5 pick-and-roll between CP and DeAndre Jordan.

-[LeBron] Yeah, which is fluff. Tell them. -Which is fluff.

-[LeBron] Fluff. -Doesn't mean anything.

CP would just dribble out. DJ would slip the screen.

This guy in a normal single-side pick-and-roll

-would be responsible. -[LeBron] Off the body.

He's off the body because the ball's going away from him. Yep.

It's like the teaching. You just take advantage of the teaching.

As the ball goes away from you, you get off the body.

-[LeBron] Yep. -All right. He's off the body.

-I come around. That's it. -[LeBron] Yeah.

I mean, those years you led the league in first quarter scoring.

[JJ] We ran a lot of that.

-Yeah. First quarter scoring. -You know that…

I was getting fucking nine to 12 points this quarter.

You know what's crazy about that play

was I joined the Clippers in '13-'14.

Yeah. '13-'14.

I played, I think, the first 17 games.

And DeMarcus Cousins, I went up for an offensive rebound.

I was trying to-- I'm not gonna lie, I was trying to catch one off the rim.

-This is when I was still a little bouncy. -[laughing]

Antawn Jamison shot a little like--

You know how-- Remember Antawn Jamison?

-Yeah. For sure. -He would, like, elongate…

-Yeah. -…and go around.

So he shot one of those shots off the backboard.

And I was in the left corner. I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna time this."

So I kinda-- I kinda jumped.

And, um, DeMarcus, you know, he's a big guy. I'm not.

He just kind of gave me a little forearm shiver in the air.

So anyways, I fell and I broke a bone in my wrist and tore a ligament.

And so my second game back, we played the Mavs,

and we're down, like, 17 points with four minutes to go.

And...

We go-- We make a comeback, and we cut it to,

I think, three…

and we call an ATO, and it was--

BG was in the game, 'cause we didn't want DJ to get fouled on offense.

So BG was the 5, and we ran 15 Down.

For the first time, end of game, Monta, of course,

you know, he's off the ball. I curled around, hit the three.

And then it just became a staple of our offensive system.

-But it all came out of an ATO. -It all came out of-- Wow.

It wasn't like we practiced it in practice.

-Right, right, right. -We just ran it as an ATO one time,

and it came about. The coolest thing about that, I always tell people this,

CP and DJ and me…

-it was all a read. We never… -Hmm!

We never called 15 Down unless it was against

like the Philadelphia 76ers at the time.

[chuckling]

-No, I mean that. -It makes sense.

If I'm playing against you

or I'm playing against Rondo or somebody,

and we call 15 Down…

-Yeah, we on top of that. -No.

Yeah, we on top of that. Right, right, right.

So if I run to the left corner and I see CP call DJ up,

-I'm just waiting. -Yep.

-DJ might roll. -Yep.

-DJ might come do the downstream. -Yep.

-But it was all a read. -Yeah, you just sitting there like…

-It was all a read. -Yep.

We never… We never would call it.

-It was pretty interesting. -That it is. I like that.

[JJ] Hey, guys. Thanks for listening, thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast.

If you like it, please hit that subscribe button.

Thank you.