Original subtitles

-[JJ] All right, we're at 2.47? -[man] 2.47.

Yep.

We're all good, baby.

How is it? How we looking?

Make my mom proud?

Yep.

Yep.

Welcome to episode five of Mind the Game

with LeBron James and JJ Reddick,

brought to you by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions.

Today's episode is a very special episode.

It's a two-part episode.

LeBron and I lay the groundwork for the NBA playoffs,

what makes them different,

what the experience is like as a player going through it.

And we are also joined

by LeBron James' high school basketball coach,

Coach Keith Dambrot.

Coach Dambrot coached for 40 years at the college and high school level.

He was the head coach at Central Michigan, Akron, and of course, his latest stop,

Duquesne, where they made the NCAA tournament

and won their first-round game.

Coach Dambrot is now retiring.

Just a fascinating conversation we have with him.

Again, this show is about basketball

and we're going to cover all aspects of basketball,

uh, including college, high school, youth development, FIBA, the WNBA.

I know we spoke at length last week

about the icons in women's college basketball.

So, awesome to get Coach Keith Dambrot's experience,

expertise, and insight, uh, through his lens.

And of course, through his lens, what it was like

to coach a freshman and sophomore LeBron James in high school.

There are a few different concepts that we talk about in episode five.

Perhaps most importantly is something called top-locking.

And I want to be very clear on this.

'Cause there tends to be some confusion, particularly from Jason Gallagher.

It is not top-blocking.

It is top-locking.

Top-locking is an off-the-ball defensive scheme

where you force the shooter, the offensive player,

coming off of a wide pin down,

or at any sort of off-ball screen and you force him towards the basket.

You get on his high side or his top side.

And you force him back towards the basket or the baseline.

All right, let's say the ball is right here.

Defender there.

Let's say there is a shooter in the corner.

And there is a big guy that's going to screen away for the shooter.

As he comes down to screen,

this big would drop to protect the basket.

And a top-lock is simply when the shooter's man

gets all the way on the outside

forcing him back towards the basket.

The protection, again, comes from this big,

or whoever is guarding the screener, who drops back.

Again, top-locking, not top-blocking.

Oh, real quick, on the top-locking thing,

which, again, this is a little bit of a cheat code for the Boston Celtics.

Let's say that this is Kristaps Porziņģis, and let's say this is Jaylen Brown.

At any point in time, if Kristaps Porziņģis goes

to set an away screen on Jaylen Brown,

and Jaylen Brown's defender gets into a top-lock,

and Kristaps Porziņģis' defender drops back to provide support,

Jaylen Brown can just go set a screen right here,

and you've got Kristaps Porziņģis popping into space for an open three.

That's sort of the counter if you have a shooting big.

Also, similar to top-locking,

another concept that comes up in the conversation is icing or downing.

Icing or downing a pick-and-roll

is when the defender guarding a ball handler

on a side pick-and-roll

gets again on the high side or the top side

and forces it towards the baseline.

The big man who is covering the screener drops back towards the baseline,

towards the basket, to give support to the defender on the ball handler.

Again, the defender on the ball handler has completely opened up,

gotten on the ball handler's top side,

and is forcing the ball down towards the baseline.

We've got two offensive players here.

The screener goes into a pick-and-roll over here on the side of the court.

As that's happening,

the big defender would shout, "Ice," or "Downs."

Again, some teams have color concepts for this, but ice or down,

he would then drop to provide support,

and the guy guarding the ball would jump on the high side of the offensive player,

of the ball handler, and force it down towards the baseline.

That is an ice…

or down.

Motion offense.

Motion offense is simply a five-man offensive scheme

that relies on screening action, ball movement, and body movement.

Motion offense, typically, is very free flowing.

There's not a set action that leads to another action,

at least that's how I was taught it.

Motion offense just means you're running pin downs, away screens,

you're moving the ball side to side.

Again, you're just in motion.

You know how I was taught motion offense?

It was three out, two in.

So three offensive players outside the three-point line

and two offensive players inside the three-point line.

And again, motion offense could be any one of these options.

You pass to the wing, and you go screen away and replace.

As that's happening, maybe you get a cross screen here

and you replace.

Let's say none of that works.

Ball was over here on the right side.

Ball goes back to the top of the key.

Again, motion offense, let's say you can run a pin down here,

run a pin down here.

That's just motion offense,

is ball, body movement, pin downs, away screens, cross screens.

Motion offense.

Flex offense is another offense we talk about.

Flex offense, very simply, is a half-court offensive scheme

that relies on a baseline screen and then a pin down.

And that is a continuous offense.

Uh, a lot of high school teams run it. College teams still run it.

I remember Boston College, when we played them and I was at Duke,

Coach Al Skinner, that is literally all they ran offensively

was the flex offense.

Gary Williams in Maryland also ran the flex offense a ton.

This is just a basic flex offense.

So you'll have five offensive players.

And a lot of times, a ball handler will enter it this way.

He would pass…

to one of the men up top and make some sort of cut

off the other high guy.

Once that happens, we are in a flex alignment.

And this, all it is, is a baseline screen looking for a layup into a pin down.

And again, once you pin down, you go back out to the corner,

and this can be continuous.

Baseline cut, pin down.

Some teams that still run this,

once this first pin down happens,

a lot of times, this is a big, this is a guard.

He would then just come back and set a high pick-and-roll,

and you play out of that.

So you can run flex to get into other actions,

or you can make flex continuous.

As always, thank you for listening and watching the Mind the Game podcast

with LeBron James and JJ Reddick.

If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button,

go follow us on whatever audio platform you listen to us on.

Thank you for all of the support. Thank you for all the feedback.

Thank you for all the discussion points.

And my new favorite thing, my new favorite thing

from Mind the Game podcast is when I'm watching a game,

and I happen to be on my Twitter account,

and one of you guys points out a slot cut.

One of you guys points out one of the actions

we talk about on the podcast.

Uh, pretty awesome for us.

So, appreciate y'all.

And this is episode five of Mind the Game.

All right. End game. Game two. One of your most iconic shots.

[LeBron] What game?

[JJ] Game two, 2009 conference finals.

[LeBron] Oh, yeah. Orlando.

I have a question about that play.

'Cause that is an example of a, you know,

off-ball movement, catch-and-shoot three.

Yep.

So, if I remember correctly…

uh, Mo was taking it out.

[LeBron] Yep.

Delonte set like a flare screen for Ilgauskas.

-Yep. -Right, right here.

I think it was Pavlovic just kind of ran to the ball.

-[LeBron] Yep. -And you were over here on this elbow.

You actually never got a screen on that play.

No, 'cause I was supposed to…

The play was for to fake up and go backdoor for the lob.

And Turk played it, and Turk played it perfectly.

-Okay. -So I faked up.

And I tried to go back for the lob, and I said, "It's not open."

It's not open.

So I just came to the ball.

-And Turk fucked that up. -Yeah.

My only issue on that play.

I didn't even see Rashard. He had a hell of a contest.

-[JJ] Yes. -He was guarding the ball.

-He was guarding Mo, yeah. -He was guarding the ball.

I didn't see it until after the fact. I never saw him.

-I never saw him. -You only saw Turk.

Only saw Turk.

Do you remember… Do you remember your first playoff game?

My first playoff game…

I do.

What do you remember about it?

I was nervous as fuck.

That's what I remember.

-This was third year? -This was third year.

-Third year. -Yeah. And I don't know…

We can look it up and figure out when was the last time

the Cavs were in the postseason.

But that was just like, my first year, okay,

I was establishing myself in my first year.

Second year, we missed the playoffs by maybe one or two games.

And it's like, "Okay, I'm here to, like, play ball,

but I want to make the next step."

I got to get this franchise to the postseason.

And my third year, we finally made the postseason,

and we-- our first game was against Washington at home.

I was nervous as hell.

My stomach was hurting all goddamn long,

all day until, literally until the ball jump.

Why do you think… Like, what have you reflected on that?

Why do you think you were more nervous for that game

than any other game?

Well, it was two games. My first ever game in Sacramento.

And then I didn't want to fucking lay an egg.

-Obviously, everybody was watching. -Hold on.

This is not a narrative podcast. I just want to be clear on this.

But I think what you're admitting here is that you felt the burden.

-You felt the pressure. -Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Pressure. Who's under more pressure?

Yeah, who is it? What's the pressure? What is pressure?

No, I didn't want to lay an egg, man. I was, what, 20? 20 years old?

Got the team to the postseason.

I didn't want to go out there and shit the bed.

I was maybe 21, maybe. But, like, I didn't want to shit the bed.

First playoff game, you know, look out, there's Gilbert Arenas

and Antawn Jamison and Caron Butler and those guys.

They were playing great ball that year.

We're inexperienced as hell.

I didn't want to lay an egg.

What did you have?

32-11-11.

[laughing]

-I laid an egg all right. -Oh, man.

In their locker room.

Yeah, I think… Don't quote me on this.

I think it was like 35-7-6 or 35-7-7 or something.

-Well, for the whole series? -For the whole series.

-Yeah. -Oh, shit.

-Not bad. -Yeah, not bad.

Not bad for the first one.

You've played in, uh… a ton of playoff games, obviously.

-You've won championships. -Mm-hmm.

Um…

There's a lot that's different…

about the playoffs and the regular season.

What is it? What is different… about the playoffs?

In general or for me?

-In general. -In general.

We'll get to you specifically.

In general, um, as you know,

as you've played in a lot of postseason games too,

one possession can lose you the series.

And compared to the regular season, you can get away with some slippage.

You can get away. It's four or five nights.

You're fucking tired.

You know, it's a cold-ass Tuesday night in Milwaukee.

You know, you're like, "Holy shit, not this Milwaukee team."

I mean, obviously, you get up for those guys, but…

in the postseason…

one bad stretch,

it could be a fucking 6-0 run.

It could be a turnover here.

It could be…

you didn't top-lock JJ when we told you we top-locking him all series

and now he done seen one go in.

Even if you…

There's times where you know you can win a playoff game…

and because the way you finished the game,

you already lost the second one.

You done let-- you done let that fucking guy or that person

get into a rhythm in the fourth quarter

because you decided you didn't want to lock in for eight to nine more minutes.

And, yes, we won the game. But now, we may lose the war.

Yeah.

The mental side of the playoffs, by the way.

Thank you. Yeah.

Particularly…

uh, against a really good opponent.

-Yeah. -I think it was in episode one.

You said, "The further you go into playoffs, to win,

you have to be a high-IQ team."

Yep.

It's, uh…

it's obviously emotionally draining.

Mm-hmm.

Because of the… There is pressure.

It's different.

-You feel more with each win and loss. -Mm-hmm.

You get to two losses in a series.

You get to three losses in a series, an elimination game.

You're down 3-2, you've got to go on the road to San Antonio.

They won the championship last year.

You've got to muster up enough to beat them to get back home.

That emotional toll is a lot. The physical toll, of course, playing.

To me, like, the mental side of it,

I think that is a huge separator,

because, oftentimes, mental mistakes within a game…

can lead to a series loss.

For sure.

I think about one I made.

I was in Orlando.

We were playing in the conference finals against Boston,

and I had played a good game.

And there was a timeout.

Let's say there was 29 seconds.

There was a five or six-second difference between shot clock and game clock.

And go to the timeout…

I know we have a timeout.

I know we have a timeout.

We get the stop.

I get the rebound.

-[LeBron] You dribble? -First… No.

-First I looked at Stan. -Mm-hmm.

And I'm not saying it was his fault.

I looked-- I knew there was a timeout.

I knew I was, I should have called a timeout.

And I looked at him and he didn't do anything.

So then I just instinctively put the ball on the floor and then he called a timeout.

-Yeah. Now you can't advance the ball. -Now we got three seconds.

We've got to take it out three-quarter court opposite foul line.

-And we didn't get a good shot off. -Mm-hmm.

Now, we were down.

I don't know that we win anyways,

but that's an example of, like, a mental mistake.

I'll give you another one.

And this one has bothered me…

for four years.

And I'm not throwing this guy under the bus

'cause I think his intention was right.

Um, 2020 playoffs conference finals.

You guys are up 1-0 on Denver.

And you're down at the end of the game.

You've got the ball underneath the basket.

-Yep. -Mason Plumlee checks in the game.

-Yep. -To guard Anthony Davis.

Yep.

You were on the left elbow.

Anthony Davis is on the right elbow.

Danny Green makes some cut or whatever.

And Anthony Davis runs to the left wing.

You never set a pick.

In fact, your back was turned to Anthony Davis and Mason Plumlee.

[LeBron] Correct. 'Cause I was just looking at 'Do, like, "Give me the ball."

[JJ] I know.

-And Mason Plumlee point switched. -[LeBron] Yeah, point switched.

And Anthony Davis hit the game-winning three.

Now you're down 2-0.

Like that stuff, the little tiny plays…

It's weird 'cause in the playoffs, I would say…

the little plays get amplified more.

-Does that make sense? -Yep.

Versus a regular season, you go through 82 games,

it doesn't feel the same way.

Yeah.

That's why my body language is so bad throughout the regular season.

'Cause I'm trying to gear them up for the postseason 'cause…

Don't understand. Some guys don't understand. Like, it's...

One play, like you saying, one play can be the difference

between your ass going home and going to Cabo or Cancun

or wherever the hell you going.

Or going to Disneyland or Disney World with the trophy in your hand.

Do you think the… the sort of game within the game…

of coaches is different?

-Meaning? -Like, I don't know…

Bob Myers maybe didn't originate this but I know that he said it at some point.

There are 82 game players and then there's 16 game players, right?

Do you think that in some ways there are regular season, like,

good regular season coaches versus good playoff coaches?

Like, how much does coaching matter

in the NBA in the playoffs?

It matters a lot.

Preparation.

Prep. How much prep are you getting going into a series to win?

You get out there and…

you kind of ready for…

everything that's going to be thrown at you.

And, obviously, everybody makes adjustments

and then you got the great players that don't matter

what type of fucking game plan you got on them,

they're going to exploit it no matter what,

but as much as you can be prepared going out for a series…

And you know, changes…

You know, like, game one is kind of like the filler game,

you know, you almost, like, tell your players

"Just go out and just fucking play."

Just go out and play game one.

Don't think too much 'cause if you start thinking too much,

now you can't even just like be... can't even just be a player no more

'cause now you're just trying to think the game,

but me, personally, I want overload.

-You want overload. -I want overload.

I want all the information, everything, everybody, every individual,

every pros and cons.

And I don't do that throughout the 82-game regular season.

I don't have the time to do that. I don't have the time.

The league has changed a lot with practice time,

shoot-around time, amount of time you spend in the film room.

-It just has. -Yeah, it has.

And you know, I was fortunate.

I would say fortunate five of my first six years,

I played for Stan.

I also played for him my, you know, my last year in New Orleans.

When you talk about the preparation, it was interesting to me

that he prepared for a regular season game

the same way he prepared for a postseason game.

So we're in shoot-around for an hour and a half.

We got knee pads on, we're going live.

He would-- I remember at the end of shoot-arounds, he'd be like,

"All right, these guys haven't run this play in five games.

This is an ATO, but they haven't run it in five years.

I want to be prepared for it. Let's go through it.

You guys didn't do it right. Let's go through it again."

-That's the Rouse tree. -A hundred percent.

That's the Rouse tree. Suppose the same way.

So when we got-- But my point is, when we got to the playoffs,

it didn't feel any different.

-Right, 'cause you-- -When we were prepping for a playoff.

Yeah, for sure. That's just suppose the same way. That's the Rouse tree.

You know, you come from that Pat Riley tree.

That's just you prepare every day like it's your last, for sure.

You mentioned the word "exploitation" again.

[laughing]

How much…

mental energy in a playoff series, playoff game,

are you spending on exploitation, how to exploit the other team?

-You personally. -Forty-eight minutes.

Yeah.

And if we need 53 or 58,

the whole game.

How can you… 'Cause I'm trying to generate easy buckets.

Easy buckets and I want to get my guys in a rhythm

and how can we exploit the matchups and the players that's on the floor?

Sometimes, I get a little disrespectful to it as well.

Certain guys come on the floor,

I'll say it right on the free throw line while we shooting a free throw,

they're shooting a free throw.

Yo, we putting him into action.

Thumb down him.

Yeah.

I want him to know that like, you know, we're going at him.

In the postseason.

I'm glad I never played against you in the postseason.

-Well, I guess I did. Nine minutes-- -Nine minutes, game two.

2009.

Um…

I think the other thing for me in playing and in watching is,

can you create good offense down the stretch?

That's true, of course, in any basketball game.

I think it's harder and harder the further you go in the playoffs.

Yeah, it is. I mean, obviously, the...

the IQ, which I always come to,

the IQ from the coaches to the players heighten

and get better as you go on and on and on and on,

and once the players get better too as well,

I feel like being able to execute…

Certain guys are able to execute better

than others and teams or whatever the case may be…

because nothing bothers them in the pressure moments.

-Sometimes, the lights are too bright. -Yeah.

For certain individuals.

-And that's-- -I-I would…

I would say this though.

Here's the thing.

That's a fair point. Not disagreeing.

Not disagreeing.

For my career,

I think I shot 41% in the regular season from three.

For my career in the playoffs, I think I shot over 37%.

Yeah, but that's not because of the pressure.

No, no, no, but… Hold on.

Oftentimes, our opinion on things are shaped by our own experience.

-Is that fair? -That's fair.

You and I have had different experiences as basketball players.

Let me hear your experience.

So, later on in my career, once,

pretty much once I got to L.A. and was, like, a starter

and third or fourth option on offense.

You get to the playoffs, they treat you like a first option.

Yeah, for sure.

-Do you know what I mean by that? -Yeah.

They've come up with a very specific game plan.

This same team for game one, game two, game three…

-Through game seven. -Yeah.

They've come up with a specific game plan for you.

So Utah Jazz, 2017.

We are going to top-lock him as soon as he crosses half-court.

I mean, Doc Rivers said to me after game one,

he said, "This is not your series.

I need you to stand in the corner," right?

I had a terrible series, it's the worst series

in my, like… playing career when I was actually a player.

Not like a bench guy, but like… It was the worst series of my career.

He's like, "You got to go stand in the corner.

They're literally... we're playing four on four without you."

I'm like, "All right," right? The closeouts…

So if I do create separation or if you do make a mistake in the kick,

the closeouts are different in the playoffs.

Yes.

So my catch-and-shoot time to get a clean release is different.

I'm not making excuses.

-I'm just telling you… -It is the truth.

…what I experienced.

So do you think because of that…

37% is not horrible.

-No, hell no. -It's not good for me.

-I mean, for you… -It's terrible, it's terrible.

It's terrible for you.

-Yeah, it's terrible for you. -It's terrible.

I mean, for the average guy, and they were fucking…

-I'm embarrassed. -They might get a max contract over that.

For you, you should, yeah…

But that's why I-I believe certain guys once the postseason start

because they've been guarded a certain way

for, what, September to mid-April a certain way.

You know, you have certain games that gets, you know,

circled on the calendar that certain coaches get up for,

certain players get up for, but at the end of the day…

you've been guarded a certain way,

and then, in the postseason, like you said,

the closeouts are different.

The preparation is different. Guys-- Guys are…

They're not allowing you

to do what you do best because, at the end of the day,

if certain guys get off on a team…

you're definitely going to lose.

If I'm playing the Clippers, you got…

Okay, you got to deal with Blake and his points in the paint

and his rolls and his pocket passes from CP.

You got to deal with CP.

You got to deal with Jamal coming off the bench

and doing what he does off the bench.

If we allow JJ to get five or six threes, the series is over.

If you shoot-- If you're getting five or…

Not… Fuck making five or six threes.

If JJ shooting five or six threes, we're going to lose.

Yeah. The Spurs series in '15.

I remember, dude… Right, we come out game one…

We're in L.A., we've got the three seed,

they got six seed, even though we had the same amount of wins

and Kawhi's guarding me.

And I'm like, what did I do… What did I do to deserve this?

What did I do to deserve this?

[LeBron] Why are you guarding me?

[JJ] And for, I don't remember, maybe the first four or five games of the season,

he started on me, Danny started on CP.

Then they switched that in game six. I think it was game…

I know game seven, Danny was on me.

Um, and at the end of the series, we win.

And like, I didn't have a great series,

but I had big moments in the series, you know,

and at the end of the series, Chip Engelland came up to me.

He's like, "Man, our entire thing was like we gotta--

We can't allow you to get off. We threw the kitchen sink to you."

I wasn't even a part of that.

I've seen Pop in the postseason.

I played against him multiple times in finals appearances.

There was one time where we're assum… The…

He called a timeout.

With like 11 minutes and 52 seconds left in the first quarter.

'Cause a guy on our team got off of three.

Yeah.

I don't even know if they made the damn three.

But he called a timeout right away.

[whistles] Got on Danny Green.

What the fuck, Danny Green?

Got on his ass, took him out,

brought him back in.

But obviously they had something in place and then they executed.

Yeah.

Um, two last things…

Points I want to make on the playoff or one last point,

and then I want to actually get your perspective on something.

I-I think what's different about the playoffs,

so…

to your point about…

still winning a game, but maybe an adjustment's made late in the game,

and you say we won the game, but they may have figured something out.

-Yeah. -Right?

I think what's different is…

if you make that adjustment

with six minutes to go in the third quarter

and you come back, still lose the game,

the next night, you might be playing Memphis,

the next night, you might be playing Oklahoma City,

the next night, you might be playing Portland.

So you might have to wait two months.

Right.

In the playoffs, you make an adjustment,

you feel like you can exploit something, it's the same damn team.

-Same damn team. -The next night or a day later.

-Yeah. -Yeah.

And so that's where you see, like, Dallas in '11.

-You remember JJ Barea against the Lakers. -Mm-hm.

It's like, oh, they, JJ and Dirk in pick-and-roll.

-They can't stop that. -Yeah.

We're just going to exploit that over and over.

Um, what's your perspective on luck in the playoffs?

Needed.

Give me an example.

The biggest example of, like, luck in the post--

In your, in your experience.

Oh, in my experience?

Uh…

Trying to think of my championship runs.

I mean, I was on the team. That's the luck, right?

I can't think off the top of my head, but no, no, seriously.

Like, you know, you could be a great team, but you need a little luck.

You need the ball to bounce your way sometimes.

You know, you need a, you know, a certain player on the opposing team

get in foul trouble, you know, it's just, I don't know…

I mean, off the top of my head,

I started to think of like what unfortunately,

what happened with Kawhi with the Zaza Pachulia thing.

-You know, the Spurs was-- -They were good.

-They were fucking good. -Yeah.

And they were handling the shit out of Golden State up until that point.

I think they were maybe up…

I can't, I don't know off the top of my head.

We can always look it up, obviously, they were up 17,

you know, and they were very fucking good.

And… you know, you get Kawhi go down with the ankle

and it's like, oh, shit, the whole thing changes.

So, you know, like, I don't know off the top of my head

as far as, you know, my experience, but…

Luck you want to say is always, you need…

Yes, you need it. You need some luck for sure.

You definitely do.

I think it goes back to where we kind of started this

with the one play where a lucky bounce,

an unlucky bounce, a call, uh, a guy reacting to something, 2016.

Yeah.

[laughing]

An injury, right? A play, a moment.

-A play, a moment. Yeah, for sure. -And it's not…

-I think luck maybe is the wrong word. -It's not though.

It's like an inflection point almost of, like, someone gets hurt--

-That can change the trajectory. -Yes.

The trajectory of what's to... what's to come.

I mean, do you look at it…

What is it, '01?

Lakers, Kings?

I think that was game five or six maybe and they get the tip out to Big Shot Bob.

-[JJ] Yeah. -Like…

[JJ] I think Kobe-- Kobe missed a floater over Doug Christie, I think.

-And then Shaq just… -Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

-Vlade... -Yeah, exactly, tipped it out…

[JJ] Yeah, right to Robert Horry.

[LeBron] If you clean glass on that, that's the game.

-[JJ] Yeah. -And it's like…

How many times a ball gets batted

right into one of the biggest clutch players

in the NBA history at the top of the key

and he just-- at the end of the game, bang, bang.

Yes, that's some luck.

-There's some luck to that. -There's some luck to that.

Complete transparency,

we actually got up and sat back down 'cause we had to say this.

-Game six, Ray Allen's three. -Yeah, I don't…

-[JJ] The sequence of events here… -Yeah.

-…that led up to that. -Yep.

[LeBron] I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is that,

you know, Pop had took Timmy D out.

-Yeah. -You know…

And I think because, you know,

they probably looking to switch everything

'cause we needed threes, we needed threes.

So, everything was gonna be on the perimeter.

I had literally just made one three before that.

And we ran one of our plays that we've been practicing all year

where I would, you know, come and set the pick…

Like, we just kind of, like, we drew up on a whiteboard.

I will flare over the top and then come back.

And, uh, I missed that one.

And… who knows if Timmy D is on the floor.

Does he clean glass? He's cleaned glass a lot in his career.

But Bosh is able to, you know, get the rebound over Manu.

Manu kind of falls down a little bit.

He's kind of on the back, he cleans glass and then…

Ray… backpedals.

Doesn't even look at the line.

What if he steps on the line backpedaling?

-What if his toe is on the line? -What if his toe is on the line?

There's a lot of preparation.

'Cause I watch Ray do that every day, prep like that,

but I believe there's some luck to that too.

The thing I always think about that play,

and this is going to sound weird and it's going to make me look bad.

It will. But I will take it.

Manu was such a fucking psychotic competitor.

I think about him going for that rebound.

If I was in that situation and saw the ball bounce,

and this is not revisionist history.

I'm just being honest with you.

And I'm guarding Ray Allen.

I'm staying at home.

But Manu is Manu.

-He wants that rebound to close the game. -He wanted to tip it out.

He wanted to close the game out, win a championship.

Like, I'm-- This is-- I'm not knocking what he did.

No, no, for sure, yeah.

And had he not fallen, it wouldn't even have mattered.

-Right. -But he's such a competitor.

He went for it and he fell, and that was all that Ray needed.

That's all he needed.

-Wow. -Yeah.

-Wow. Wow. Wow. -I'm soft.

Thanks, Manu.

I get to sit behind the wine.

No, we're going to move it. We're going to move it over here.

That's a big sacrifice.

Do you want to handle this?

I-I've never met this guy a day in my life.

I don't even… First guest on our show.

-First guest. -I don't even know who…

No, this is, uh…

My guy, Coach Keith Dambrot, man.

My high school coach, really taught me a lot

about how to prep for the game, how to play the game.

And, uh, shit, I wouldn't be here in this seat right now

where I am in my career without him.

That's for damn sure. That's for damn sure.

He will say that, he's going to say the same thing about vice versa.

No, but like, he literally, like, taught me how to take the game serious.

Like, seriously, like, every day at practice, how to prep.

How to prepare…

Like, you know, me and Maverick always talk about, like, our games were so easy

because we practice so fucking hard.

He was like, "This is going to be the hardest thing

y'all do on this practice court.

We get in the games, it's going to be easy."

And as a player, you don't really believe that shit.

When you're 14, 15 years old,

you're like, "I'm fucking dying out here, man."

What are you talking about, "The games are going to be easier"?

Like, the competition he's got, all these…

And he was absolutely right.

So I learned how to…

What I learned from him is how to really prepare for the games

before the games ever took place.

Who was LeBron like when you coached him?

[laughing]

You had him freshman and sophomore year?

I had him as freshman, sophomore.

I met him I think when he was about 13 and a half, maybe.

Um, he was one of the easiest guys I've ever coached.

And so I was a college coach prior to coaching him.

Um, and once I saw him, I called some of my friends,

and I said, you know, "I got a guy that I think is

"one of the best I've seen," and they all kind of laughed at me.

And they say, "Oh, you sound like a high school coach now."

You know how the high school coach always hypes guys up sometimes.

But just easy guy, great teammate, cared about, you know,

playing as a team, uh, loved his teammates, played hard.

But the biggest thing that jumps out at you

is just his innate ability and his ability to learn.

Interesting.

You used the word "innate" in the first episode.

-Yeah. -I thought you were full of shit.

[laughing]

Glad somebody co-signed it.

When you, when you teach basketball…

You just, you just retired. Congratulations.

Congrats. Absolutely. Congrats on that. Hell of a career.

-You got a win in the tourney. -Yes, sir.

When you teach basketball, is there a difference in approach

between teaching high school kids or college kids?

That's a great question.

So, uh, I had always been a college coach,

so when I had that group,

I treated them like college players

and they actually had the brains of above that.

And then once I knew LeBron was going to be a pro

'cause I had had three NBA guys before him,

then I started to treat him like he had to guard Kobe in four years.

So that's really how I treated him. I treated him like a pro.

That's interesting.

Did you feel that?

Did you not know any different?

No, no, no. I didn't know no difference.

I mean, I'm just going out there and just like, I'm gonna just bust my ass.

And this is a guy that's… He's the, he's the head coach.

So whatever he says, let's do it.

Like, and, like, we all came together, like, me and my high school boys,

you know, we all came to St. V for a reason and we wanted to win.

We wanted to win a state championship.

We wanted to win, you know, Maverick was doing, you know,

recruiting before he was supposed to be doing it and shit,

recruiting me to St. V, but, um, but yeah, I just wanted to win.

So like, you know, it was times when you would be pissed off at him

'cause you're not used to it, you're not used to,

you know, this type of, you know,

this type of hard work is something different.

You know, remember, I was telling you in episode one how,

how different it is going from, you know,

just from grade school to middle school.

You know, the intimidation factor of even just walking down the hallways.

And then going from middle school to high school is even more intimidating.

Now, you're like being around kids with, like, beards

and, like, people are driving to school.

I'm a freshman in high school. I don't, like, drive.

I ride my bike or one of the coaches pick me up,

whatever the case may be.

So, you know, it was super duper different in a sense of…

anything else I had been up to that point while playing the game of basketball.

How long did you coach total between high school and college?

Well, I had a little sabbatical. So, let me think about that.

So, I was seven years at Duquesne,

13 at, um, at Akron as a head coach,

and then three other years as an assistant.

So, close to 35 years.

How do you coach a player

that can't remember… after-timeout plays?

Coming out of a timeout.

Coming out of a timeout, you drop a play and a player habitually…

forgets what he's supposed to do.

As a coach, how do you coach that player?

That's funny 'cause we were just talking about that last night.

I may have got some intel on that.

So, really what you do is you have an assistant coach

that is assigned to that guy,

and after you draw up the play,

he draws it, redraws it up and then tells them again about it

because there's nothing more frustrating as a coach

and even as a player than somebody butchering up plays

when you draw it up for them.

I, uh… LeBron knows this.

I coach my son's travel team.

It's a fourth grade travel team, nine- and ten-year-olds.

And, uh, there's not, there's not a ton of opportunities to call timeouts.

I'll draw up the first play. If we have the ball at halftime, I'll draw it up.

I think each team is allowed, like, three timeouts.

And, you know, if there's opportunities, I'll draw it up

where we have the ball.

'Cause a lot of times if we score on another team, they call a timeout…

You don't have time--

…chaos is going to ensue at the change of possession, right?

So it's just like, but it's interesting because I have to deal with that, right?

And the one thing I've learned this season--

this is my second year doing it--

is I tell the kids,

not every kid, but I tell the kids that need to hear this,

"Just watch what you're supposed to do."

-That's a good point. -There's a lot of stuff happening.

-Just watch what you're supposed to do. -[Keith] That's a good point.

It's really good.

I think the hardest thing,

and this is where I'm curious for both of you,

coaching it and having coaches do this.

ATOs are such a very specific thing.

And a big part of running an ATO correctly is timing.

And so practicing ATOs, like,

did you practice your ATOs?

Did you have a list of certain plays that were ATOs,

that were outside of your normal sets or concepts?

And have you had coaches that actually practiced ATOs?

So I know a lot of coaches do that,

but I kinda, I'm kind of a coach that plays off the feel of the game.

So I'll usually run one of the sets

that I think's going to go at that particular time.

That way you're not as limited as to what you can run at a certain time.

But obviously we've practiced all of those.

And we probably spent more time this year,

for instance, just on 5-on-0, just making sure our guys knew

every little aspect of it.

And you make a great point.

You can run a great set, but if you don't execute the screen or the cut

or understand how to bump a screen or go tight off of a screen,

none of it really matters.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think what you were saying, J,

I think there's a…

practicing some ATOs is, uh, is very beneficial to certain teams.

But also as a player,

sometimes when a coach comes to the timeout

and draws something that you haven't seen before,

you kind of get like, "Oh, shit, I ain't seen this one before."

Like, I'm going to execute this one to a tee

because if it works now, we might can bring this back again.

I wanna, you know, as a player, you feel good about that.

Like, "Oh, I didn't know you had that one in your bag, Coach."

Yeah, you have certain things that…

You know, you have a fourth quarter package, you know, you have an ATO,

you have, you know, SOBs, BOBs

that you don't, you know, want to run throughout the course of the game.

'Cause if it's a close game, you want to try to catch the defense,

you know, sleep in or catch them off guard or whatever the case may be, but…

in the conversation that we're having

throughout the course of a game, you want to kind of have things

that's in place that you've kind of practiced

just so guys have some type of mental, you know, knowledge

of, "Okay, this is what we worked on yesterday,"

or "This is what we worked on in shoot-around."

But it doesn't always happen like that 'cause coaches and players,

like, we want to, you want to do shit that,

you want to be able to make in-game adjustments

that maybe you didn't have an opportunity to prepare for that earlier that morning,

or maybe it is a back-to-back and you didn't really have shoot-around.

You didn't have an opportunity to, you know,

really put in, you know, all the stuff that you may have wanted to put in

if you had a practice day.

So, I think it's all situational.

Yeah, the reason I bring up the timing thing

is 'cause there are certain parts of after-timeout plays

-when you cut, when you set the screen. -Absolutely.

Like, a big part of ATOs is misdirection.

-[LeBron] Yeah, for sure. -Right?

And so, when that misdirection is occurring, that's important.

Yeah, for sure.

The other reason I ask is because, uh, you know,

Doc was great with this, and Brett Brown was great with this,

is end-of-game need plays.

-Yeah. -[JJ] So, we had need-two plays.

-Need two, need three. -[JJ] Need-three plays.

And we would have a package.

And by the way, that package would change throughout the season.

So, if we ran a play a couple times in a need-three situation…

And it didn't work or whatever.

Yeah, or even if it did, we would have to, we'd have to disguise it.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah. -And then we'd have to practice that.

And you mentioned something really good, I think.

You know, obviously, we can't advance the ball in college.

So, I do think some of your side outs can be plays

that you run from the, from a normal set.

So, the guys can actually do the same thing.

And then the ability to save plays for late in the game, too.

Like, I always try to save three or four

that I like to run late that I haven't run the whole game,

or like you said, maybe put them in a closet for two or three weeks

and then bring them back two or three weeks later.

I like to do that as well.

Based on the guys that you have coached throughout your career,

what are the skills that translate and transfer

from high school to college, college to the NBA?

Well, I think, you know, there's a lot of guys that have talent,

but there's a lot of guys that don't have a good enough brain

to play in the NBA.

You know, you have to understand the game.

You have to understand, you know, what it takes to make the league.

For instance, we had the Thomas twins who, uh, LeBron knows

that played for us at Eastern Michigan.

Uh, one of nine twins that played in the NBA, free agent guys.

Charles never averaged more than 11 points a game at college.

But he had a skill set good enough to be able to play defense,

be able to handle the ball enough,

and shoot the three ball enough to play in the league.

And I think a lot of guys think they have to score to play in the league.

But you have to be able to guard to play in the league.

You have to be able to play a role. You have to be a good role player.

'Cause there's not many guys like LeBron.

Most of the guys in the NBA,

and you guys know way more than me, are role players.

So you have to be really good at something.

-Thanks. -[laughs]

I think you were a little more than a role player.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

You got a clip that I sent your ass the other day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

I actually, I would argue everybody's a role player.

That's true.

His role is just to be the guy, right?

Luka's role is to be the guy.

That's his role.

The connota--

There's a difference between definition and connotation, right?

The connotation of a role player,

most 19- and 20-year-olds don't want to hear that.

"I'm going to be a role player in the league?" Right?

And that, to me, is a struggle.

And it's interesting you bring up the brain,

'cause I think part of the brain and part of...

curious to get your thoughts on this too,

part of lasting in the NBA,

skill set, talent,

size, strength, all that stuff, super important.

Basketball intelligence, super important.

What about emotional intelligence?

What about being able to be a part of a group,

be a part of a team, navigate locker room situations,

navigate relationships with coaches,

navigate relationships in the training room?

I think to some degree… that's maybe not equally as important,

'cause you need all the stuff beforehand,

but to last in the NBA, you have to have a level of that.

I mean, it goes back to the saying that I told you

about one of my good friends, Jimmy Iovine,

always talks about, when the shit gets bigger than the cat,

you get rid of the fucking cat.

And what he's saying, basically in basketball terms,

is a lot of players, when they're at their peak of performance…

but on the, on the side that you're talking about,

they don't, they haven't respected authority,

they haven't come in and just wanted to be a part of the group.

You know, but they was averaging 25, 30,

or whatever the case may be, and they were the shit.

When that stuff starts to dwindle…

and the shit is not as good as the individual anymore,

they get rid of the cat.

And we see it in our sport, you see it in sports in general.

You know, you have to play the game to play the game as well.

And at the end of the day,

being a good person shouldn't have to just be dedicated to just sports.

-That's fucking life. -Yeah.

Just being a good fucking person.

Hey, how you doing? Good morning.

Okay. Am I having a bad day?

Okay, I might be having a bad day. Alright.

Yo, you alright? Like, shit like just normal shit.

Like, if I'm walking to a door and a woman is beside me,

no matter if she's a stranger or not,

she's an older woman or a younger, like, hold the fucking door open for her.

Why? I don't understand. Why is that such a like…

That should be easy.

-That should be easy. But it's not. -Not everybody does it.

I had, I had, I had vets my rookie year

that were like, "Dude, you're coming into the practice facility."

When you walk in a room, say hi to everybody.

Acknowledge people. Right?

I was in my shit. I wasn't playing. You know, I was upset.

You have to take that into account as well.

-But at the end of the day-- -I was 22. I was young.

-But like-- -I think that helps you.

You last longer in a department that you want to be a part of

because you just play the game a little bit…

-And no one's telling you to be fake. -No, no, no. It's not that.

It's not being fake. It's just being, just being human.

Be a fucking human being. No matter what else. Whatever you do.

It's a fine line between being in the league

and not being in the league, right?

So when you go 12 to 15 or whatever, right,

the coach doesn't really want to be around somebody

that's not a good person.

'Cause there's somebody probably just as good as you or close to as good as you

that you can play with that probably aren't going to play anyway, right,

at that point.

There's a lot of guys I know that I'm friends with

that had nine- or ten-year careers

that never played more than ten, eleven minutes in a game,

never were really an 82-game regular rotation player.

-But they were great fucking dudes. -Yep.

And they lasted nine or ten years and maximized their career.

Because of this very thing we're talking about.

And if you get that tenth year, you get that pension.

You get that pension. You get that health care.

-You get that health care. You get that. -Lifetime.

The influence of the game in the NBA,

European basketball, on the college game.

We maybe had talked about this

and we haven't really, like, dove into this.

It feels like at times when I watch college,

there's a big difference between coaches

who have embraced what I would call modern basketball concepts

versus what I would call antiquated basketball concepts.

Where is college basketball right now with… being influenced

by either the NBA or Euro League or, you know, World FIBA competitions

just in terms of X-and-O strategy?

So clearly in my mind,

uh, the NBA has been influenced by the European basketball.

And I feel like college basketball is two to three years behind the NBA.

And the reason I say that is, for instance,

when people started icing the ball screens,

that took two years before it hit college basketball.

And then everybody, to offset the ice, they started going to the elbow handoffs.

Right, the dribble handoffs.

And that took another two years before it hit college basketball.

So, the last thing probably that occurs is the isos

and finding the elephant in the room, I call it.

-You know, the guy that can't really-- -Target hunting.

Yeah, like LeBron was talking about, pointing it.

"We're going at him."

That's probably the last thing and…

The one thing that's different is there's not as many great players

in college basketball as there is in the NBA.

So it's never going to look exactly the same.

But I think the NBA has clearly been ahead of college basketball

and will remain to be the driving force of college basketball.

It takes, it takes coaches a long time to adjust.

Like, probably when you played some, there was still some motion offense.

Right, you don't see hardly any of that anymore.

Like, we used to cover, like, down screens,

back screens, low crosses.

Now what we do is we cover ball screens and dribble handoffs.

And split screens, you know, like you were talking about.

That's all we cover.

NC State was the only team in my four years in college,

and that was later on after Herb Sendek had left, I believe,

that iced a pick-and-roll,

Boston College still ran flex when they joined the ACC.

-Your boy Duds. -My boy Duds?

Your boy Duds.

-They literally just ran the flex offense. -Al Skinner, right?

And that's all they ran.

So, yeah, I get the difference between...

or the, I should say, being behind on things.

The one thing I have noticed particularly this spring in March Madness is…

there are some really good coaches

that are being creative with non-shooting players,

non-spacing players.

So the difference, of course, between the NBA

and FIBA and college is that you can be in the paint.

Right?

And there are certain players, not every, it's not like the NBA.

The NBA is the best of the best.

Great college team might have two or three NBA guys.

Of those two or three guys, maybe one guy has a ten-year career.

That's just the reality.

So there's going to be players on the floor that you don't have to guard.

And…

UConn does this with Danny Hurley.

Um, I saw the Baylor women's team do this

at the end of a game on a need-three situation,

is you use the non-shooter in the corner,

you put the shooter either on the block or on the same side wing.

-Skip pass, either uphill DHO. -Uphill DHO.

Or a DHO to the person on the block.

Baylor used it to get a game-tying three to send it into overtime.

Yeah, because then his man can't really help on those.

-Because he's so far away from him. -So far away.

You have to… I think that's one thing.

And I think the other thing is using your shooters as screeners more.

You know, both on the ball and off the ball.

Back screen, you know, into a down screen.

Or back screen into a ball screen.

Just trying to get your shooter involved.

But your idea is a really good one because they're always late.

You were talking about being late to the,

to the handoff and the ball screen overreaction.

That's a good point.

When UConn runs that play with, uh, with their big guy,

there's constant overreaction.

-They get slips, they get threes. -Yeah, for sure.

I mean, you saw it last year.

Obviously they're doing it again this year.

But Jordan Hawkins got so much action last year over that

because they had a non-shooting big out there.

Obviously, Jordan Hawkins is being body to body,

but X4, X5 that's guarding the non-shooter,

-he can't get back up the floor. -I just want to draw one play.

I just want to draw one play.

They're not used to being out there either.

-I got to draw one. -It's like a fish out of the water.

I'm like a…

Especially in college where these, these…

People guarding non-shooters are literally just standing there.

I hate to bring it up, but Illinois went 55 real minutes

without scoring a point versus UConn.

UVA had 14 in the first half.

It went like, I don't know, close to an hour.

Forty-three minutes without scoring an actual point.

It was insane.

-Cheers, Coach. -Cheers. Cheers.

Good seeing you.

So, like, if a team is top-locking a shooter over here,

let's say this is fluff.

-Yep. -This is fluff.

This is like the four-man going to screen.

You've got your five over here. This guy's pulled all the way.

This is where the ball is. This is what I'm talking about.

You set this up with the away screen.

-This defender jumps into a top-lock. -Yep.

This guy is just sitting in the paint.

-You skip-pass it to the corner. -Yep.

Here's the uphill DHL. Now this guy's going to be late.

This guy's out of position 'cause he thinks this is coming.

That's… There are ways to get around the spacing issues.

And, like, and the same thing he was saying.

If I'm being top-locked, right…

and the big comes set the pick-and-roll,

or sets up the wide pin, if I'm the guy that's being top-locked,

I'm the shooter, I can go underneath, snake it,

and set the ball screen on the ball handler.

Now my guy's top-locked.

He can't switch. He can't help.

-Now the ball handler comes off naked. -[Keith] Yeah.

Because my guy's only worried about me coming off to get a shot.

I used to do that with Joel.

-Remember our elbow too, actually? -Yeah, absolutely.

Left elbow. I'm in left corner.

And a lot of teams would top-lock it.

And I would literally just walk my guy up into Joel's man.

-You screen two guys at once. -Joel would spin and he'd get a layup.

Yeah, you screen two guys at once.

That's great stuff.

Uh, Coach, before we let you go, and thanks for being our first guest.

Thanks for having me.

I got a question for you.

And I'll ask LeBron this

in two or seven years, we're not really sure.

What are you going to miss the most about the game of basketball

and about being around it every day?

I just think the effect you have on people.

You know, um…

I think one of the things that I always tried to teach LeBron

was you're going to hit some rough moments,

but you got to battle through.

I think that's the biggest thing is these young people need advice

as to how to handle adversity.

Because what happens a lot of times is they get bailed out of adversity now.

Nobody really teaches them what to do when they hit it.

Because we've all been there, right?

We've all, we've all been in some tough situations.

Just when you think things are going great, something happens.

And if you don't know how to handle it, it's really difficult.

Yeah, that's great.

All right, cheers, guys.

-Cheers. -Coach, appreciate it.

Thank you.

-Appreciate you. -Cheers.

[JJ] We're good.

-[LeBron] He's high. -[Keith] Because he's so high.

[JJ] Single-sided. Single-sided high.

He's so high.

[LeBron] And you put the one here.

Because if the one or the two decides to help on a lob, they're too small.

[JJ] Hey, guys. Thanks for listening.

Thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast.

If you like it, please hit that subscribe button.

Thank you.

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