Original subtitles

One of my favorite players in the NBA right now is TJ McConnell.

TJ McConnell is like…

He's like Draymond, but a guard.

Yeah, he's like Draymond as a point guard. He is.

Talking about TJ McConnell, one of my favorite players.

[JJ] TJ, he's like a--

There's certain guys, they check into the game,

and it changes the flow of the game.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -Payton Pritchard's like that.

Ish Smith was like that.

Ish Smith was like that, yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

[theme music]

Welcome to episode four of Mind the Game podcast

with LeBron James and me, JJ Redick,

presented by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions.

This discussion is centered around space in the NBA and how to exploit that space,

icons in women's college basketball,

and of course, one of the most famous defensive plays in NBA history,

told through the mind, the eyes, and the words of LeBron James.

Just a few things that we cover conceptually in this episode.

I want to go through these right now,

just to give you guys a little precursor to the concepts that we talk about.

One of the things I talk about in this episode is the screen assist.

Uh, assists are tracked and have been tracked for decades in the NBA.

An assist is when a player passes the ball to another player, and that player scores.

A screen assist is simply acknowledging and documenting

that a player has set a screen for another player who then scores.

So, it's Kevin Garnett with a wide pin-down screen

for Ray Allen, who comes off that screen and hits a jumper.

It's Dereck Lively, setting a high pick-and-roll screen

for Luka Dončić, who then makes a three-pointer.

A screen assist is just an opportunity

to get your teammate open, who then scores.

One of the best screen assisters in the entire NBA is Rudy Gobert.

And he has been for a number of years.

He actually leads the NBA in screen assists.

This is a stat that is tracked through advanced stats.

However, I think this should be a box score stat.

And I explain why in this episode.

The other type of assist we talk about in this episode is the hockey assist.

So, in hockey, if a player passes the puck to another player,

who then passes the puck to a goal scorer

and the scorer scores the goal, he gets an assist.

A hockey assist is simply the pass that leads to a pass

that leads to a score.

For example, in high pick-and-roll,

if the ball handler comes off

and makes a pass to the big man on the short roll,

which we covered in episode three,

and the short roller passes to the wing

and the wing guy swings to the corner for an open three,

then, the big man in the short roll who made the first pass,

that's a hockey assist.

So the Gortat Screen.

This is named after one of my former teammates, Marcin Gortat,

who popularized this type of screen and this concept in the modern NBA.

So, if we talk about a spread pick-and-roll right here,

and you have five offensive players, and five defensive players…

In today's NBA, the X5, the five guarding the five men on the offense,

he's often times in drop coverage.

Drop coverage is simply the big man in a pick-and-roll,

dropping into the paint.

He's not at the level.

The level of the screen

is at the level of the offensive player setting the screen.

Drop coverage is simply, you're back off of the level.

So, a Gortat Screen is when

the offensive player comes around the pick-and-roll.

The defensive player goes over the top of the pick-and-roll.

And at this point…

the offensive player has an advantage.

And as LeBron calls it,

a hostage dribble or putting a player in jail.

He keeps the defender on his back.

Instead of rolling to the rim,

this screener… rolls into another screen

on the drop coverage big,

which allows the ball handler to get all the way to the basket.

That is something that Marcin Gortat ran a ton with John Wall.

Something I first really noticed when I went to Philadelphia

and I played against the Boston Celtics a bunch,

Daniel Theis, Al Horford, excellent Gortat Screeners,

that is the Gortat Screen.

Another concept we talk about specifically as it relates to Nikola Jokić

is court mapping.

Court mapping is simply knowing where everyone is on the court

and the tendencies of those players,

based upon NBA concepts.

So here's an example.

Let's say this is Nikola Jokić with the basketball

and this is two Nuggets players going into a high split.

Again, a split is just when two off-ball players

go to screen for each other.

Let's say that this is… Reggie Jackson.

And Reggie Jackson sets a screen on Christian Braun,

and Christian Braun cuts to the basket.

Nikola Jokić has mapped the court.

He knows this help defender is not really involved in the play.

He's reading what these two defenders are doing.

He also knows that as this cutter cuts to the basket,

chances are, this help defender, because he's been taught this way,

is going to help on this cut.

Whether it is a scoring cut or not, he's going to help.

He has awareness of this cut.

So, court mapping is simply, I know this guy is going to be open.

I'm going to make this skip pass for a three.

Peyton Watson, three.

That's court mapping.

It's simply knowing where everyone is on the court.

Another example of that from Nikola Jokić.

Nikola Jokić in a post-up right here against the New York Knicks.

Josh Hart, right here, as a help defender.

Aaron Gordon, in the dunker spot in this area.

Josh Hart coming from the baseline side on a double.

Nikola Jokić knows that Aaron Gordon is in the dunker spot,

assuming he can get inside position.

He just makes an over-the-head pass right to Aaron Gordon for a layup.

That's court mapping.

Spacial awareness.

So, a flood typically happens on a wing isolation.

So let's say this is Jayson Tatum.

He's got a clear side. He's the offensive player. He's the O.

He's got a clear side on offense.

And let's say, the other…

Boston players are all either at the top of the key

or on the weak side, which we explained in a prior episode.

Flooding simply means that the low man,

the man closest to the rim,

floods the lane and comes across the lane.

That is flooding right here.

So, now, Jayson Tatum,

instead of being isolated alone against one defender,

has a second defender, all the other defenders on the weak side

then get in help position.

But this is the guy right here who comes across the lane and floods.

Boxes and elbows.

Again, sometimes, the meaning of the concept is simply in the word.

Uh, if you look at a court, typically, the lowest hash mark is a box.

This part of the court on the lane is-- These are called the elbows right here.

So boxes and elbows simply means

that the help defense is stationed at the boxes and elbows.

So, think about an isolation at the top of the key.

Let's say, again, it's Jayson Tatum.

He's isolating at the top of the key against the defender.

Boston is spread out, 5-out.

These defenders are at boxes and elbows.

I want to thank you guys again for watching and listening

to Mind the Game podcast with LeBron James and JJ Redick.

If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button.

Uh, we just recorded episodes five and six.

Um… I'm biased, of course,

but I think they're some of our best work yet.

[theme music]

I saw something on, uh, on Twitter that Tick Pick is reporting that

they've sold six times more Final Four tickets,

the women's Final Four

-than the men's Final Four. -I saw that.

I was thinking about earlier this year, Ryan Ruocco, who I work with, of course,

who's calling, uh, South Carolina-LSU, had better ratings on a Thursday night

versus a Miami Heat-Boston Celtics TNT game.

It feels like…

-there's a surge in popularity right now… -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

…even more so for the men's-- than the men's game.

Than the men's game.

The women's basketball, whether it's WNBA, but particularly women's college.

Why do you think that is?

I think there's obviously a lot of factors that goes into everything.

We're theorizing here, by the way.

-[LeBron] We're theorizing. -Just theorizing.

[LeBron] But I personally think that… there's two things.

Obviously, the obvious one to me is… the transfer portal.

There's too many guys that are leaving colleges, leaving programs,

and it's just hard to keep up with a lot of guys.

You know, so if I'm a kid that goes to the--

You know, if I'm a fan and my team is Connecticut,

or Baylor or, you know, Duke or North Carolina,

and kids are now, you know,

they're leaving one year in or two years in a transfer portal,

you know, you're like… you're probably--

you know, your fandom of that particular player

on your favorite program, it automatically dwindles. It goes down.

So, I think that has something to do with it as far as the popularity

and the excitement of why you may want to watch

the women's college game more than the men's.

But I also think the number one thing is…

in women's sports compared to the men,

we have the ability to go to the NBA right after our freshman year.

In the women's game, you have the ability to

build your legacy and build your…

and build your rapport and brand with that fan base, with that community.

Caitlin Clark…

I mean, back in the day, when it was like Diana Taurasi and Sue Bird,

Chamique Holdsclaw, you know, Candace Parker,

you know, you're watching these girls. They're doing it.

Kelsey Plum at Washington,

you're watching these girls

year after year after year continue to grow.

You watch any girl, I mean,

there's not much going on in Connecticut besides the Huskies.

So, when you get a popular basketball player,

which is the most popular sport in the world,

I'm gonna stick by it.

I know football fans will rebuke my comment, but I believe that.

But you get a woman to stay on campus, three, four years,

I think that has a lot to do with the popularity of their sport.

It gets to something… Rich Paul said to me.

He was talking about NBA players

and the scrutiny that the great ones face now in the social media era.

But he said to me, "There are no more icons."

And when I think about men's college basketball,

there are no more icons.

And I think two reasons you mentioned,

one and done, transfer portal are a big part of that.

We'll go down the list since the one-and-done era.

Listen to this shit. This is…

some of the names of women's college basketball players.

And a lot of these players have won the Wooden Award.

Candace Parker, and some of them have won it more than once.

Maya Moore, Brittney Griner, Breanna Stewart, A'ja Wilson.

Aliyah Boston, Sabrina Ionescu, Kelsey Plum, Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese,

JuJu Watkins, who's at USC. That's just to name a few.

And I feel like that,

as much as I love the team aspect of basketball, period,

I think the women's game right now, particularly in college, has more icons.

Yeah. I mean, when I was growing up watching college basketball on Big Monday,

you had Allen Iverson at Georgetown. You had Kerry Kittles at Villanova.

-You had Ray Allen at Connecticut. -[JJ] Ray Allen, yeah.

You had, uh, John Wallace at Syracuse. These are all on Big Mondays, you know.

There's no more-- You spent four years at Duke.

There's no more JJ Redicks or Shane Ba-- Shane Battier came back.

He came back when he was already-- he was going to be a lottery.

He came back for a senior year. He's like, "I'm coming back."

Like, those are the icons that we're talking about.

Those are the college icons that you watched.

Yeah, you watched because you had a love for, you know, that program.

But you also watched because they had certain icons

or certain uniforms, like…

You know, I used to watch North Carolina back in the day.

Ed Cota, he didn't sniff the NBA.

-But you knew who he was. Yeah. -I fucking loved Ed Cota in college.

I love Ed Cota, Shammond Williams, that team that they had.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I love Cincinnati.

You know, uh, Logan and Ruben Patterson,

you know, and Kenyon Martin, all those guys.

And then, when Kenny Satterfield stepped in,

DerMarr Johnson, it was like…

I don't know what…

Kind of like, I remember as a kid watching that.

When I was growing up, I wanted to go to Cincinnati

because of the uniforms and because of Huggs.

Then, I got a little older and I wanted to go to North Carolina

because of the uniforms and because, you know,

Ed Cota and his ability to pass the ball. I was like, "Oh, that's insane."

-Like-- -You never wanted to go to Duke?

-Fuck no, man. -[JJ chuckles]

Fuck no, I never wanted to go to Duke. I already told you this.

[JJ chuckling]

Now, yes. Now, now, yes.

-Now that you know K… -Now, that I know K,

...he's my fucking guy, yes.

My sophomore year, uh… they started recruiting me

right at the end of this-- the high school season.

And so, my season ends and they say, "You can come to senior night."

It's Chris Carrawell's senior night. It was against Carolina.

I go. This is, I mean, I'm a Duke fan. I mean, dream come true.

Right.

So I go and, um, I had a great time.

Duke wins. I meet K for the first time, spent some time with Wojo.

Wojo takes me around campus or whatever.

Like a month and a half later, I'm at the first big Nike AU tournament,

which was Boo Williams, we hosted the first tournament in Virginia.

And we get to the championship game and I'm sitting with my teammates.

And you know how you used to wear shorts underneath your shorts?

Of course. [chuckles]

[JJ] You had shorts underneath your shorts.

That particular day, I had decided to wear some Carolina shorts.

So all I want to do in life is go to Duke.

But I like the Carolina blue color.

So, I'm rocking these Carolina blue shorts.

And who fucking walks up and sits next to me? No, Wojo does.

He's like, "What the fuck are you doing, dude?"

You're trying to kill everything.

There goes my chance.

Uh, real quick, I just want to wrap this up.

But like, Cameron Brink, who, uh, star player for Stanford,

she said, "I keep seeing videos of people saying,

'I can name five women's basketball players in college,

but not men.' That's so funny, and such a crazy shift."

I wanna say, overall, the women's game,

-we have legends still playing… -Mm-hmm.

…and a bunch of future stars, the game is in such a good place.

I want to make one last point,

because I always think about time and progress, right?

Uh… first time there was men's basketball in the Olympics was 1936.

First time there was women's basketball was 1976.

The NBA started in 1951.

-It was the NBL before that in 1946. -Mm-hmm.

WNBA was founded in 1996.

The first women's nationally televised game was 1979.

-Think about that. It was the AIAW. -Hm.

They were going against, uh, Larry Bird and Magic, right?

NCAA Tournament for women didn't start until 1982.

-Think about the NBA. Right? -Mm-hmm.

-Still on tape delay in the 1980s. -[LeBron] Yeah.

Finals games, playoff games.

-It's just time and progress. -That's it.

-It's inevitable. It's inevitable. -Mm-hmm.

These players are so talented.

-It's only going to get better. -It's only going to get better.

So, this surge we're seeing, it's the trend. It's the trend.

It is the trend and I'm all for it,

because I love the sport, men or women. I love it.

And talking about role…

and I want to be clear on this.

No, I do. I want to be clear on this.

[LeBron chuckles] That is our show. Our show is very clear.

I want to be clear on this,

because I feel like there are parts of basketball

to casual fans.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -And actually, you know what?

Fuck that. We're all guilty of this.

-Yeah. -[JJ] We are guilty of this.

Where we can watch a game and say, "Oh, that guy was awesome."

And you know, chances are, he was awesome.

If we all think he was awesome, he was awesome.

And there's this other part of us that's like, "That guy was a bum."

And there's the box score watchers there, the box score watchers.

Oh, yeah. We know the box score watchers.

And I made the point the other night on your game with the Warriors.

I said, "I think screen assist should be in the box score."

I'm well aware that we can track screen assists.

-That is an official tracking stat. -Mm-hmm.

-[JJ] I want it to be a box score stat. -Yeah.

Because it's like, it goes back to role.

Basketball, for some reason,

we all have these, like, interchangeable roles at times.

-Other sports, we don't. -I agree.

So if Jason Kelce doesn't allow a sack

and has a couple pancake blocks, then he was awesome.

Nobody's saying, "Fuck Jason, why didn't you catch a pass today?"

-Right. -Why didn't you score a touchdown, Jason?

Yeah, for sure.

-We need screen assist. -[LeBron] For sure.

[JJ] Like, can we capture how good Rudy Gobert is

if we had screen assist in a box score?

If Steph goes off for 42,

and Draymond has seven assists, seven rebounds, seven points…

And seven screen assists.

…and seven screen assists, does that better capture how good Draymond Green is?

Yes.

Because his impact don't always show up in a box score like you're saying.

Hockey assists.

Guys that pass open decent shots for great shots.

Right. Or understand what the pass, what the next pass is going to do.

[LeBron] I can give you a prime example now.

-[JJ] Let's hear it. -Back to blitz and pick-and-rolls.

There's certain teams in our league that we know will blitz a pick-and-roll.

Try to get the ball out of D'Lo's hands, Austin's hands

because they're pretty damn good if you let them get some space.

Give them where they can see vision.

A lot of teams have been trying to blitz this late.

The best play for them to make when you know that's happening

with AD setting the screen is the throw-ahead pass.

To the corner, or to the wing.

-Or to the wing. -Depending on which way they're going.

As soon as you come off and you have two guys on the ball,

AD is diving,

that means there's a two-sided on the same side that's going to tag AD,

which you just drew up.

I can draw it up again.

Yeah, draw it up again. [chuckles]

You want the throw-ahead pass to the slot.

-The throw-ahead pass to the slot. -Come in middle. Yeah.

Come in middle. It is the easiest play to recognize,

and now, you put the onus on the guy in the slot to make the proper read.

Nine times out of ten,

it's going to be the guy that's sitting right in front of him,

right in the corner.

[JJ] You know, it's interesting, too,

because you talk about the hockey assist in this play.

And…

So, as AD rolls here, these two guys have now committed to the ball, right?

-And the pass goes here. -[LeBron] Yes.

[JJ] Sometimes, it's not AD that's going to score either, right?

-[LeBron] It's not. -[JJ] He can catch.

And then he hit here, or maybe it's a skip pass all the way over.

Yeah.

I think basketball, in some ways…

I don't want to simplify it because…

as Devin Booker said a couple weeks ago to me,

"There's certain people that are them ones."

I was not one of them ones, right?

But there are certain people that have the ability,

like Kevin Durant or like Devin Booker

or like Jaylen Brown to Kyrie Irving, Luka, whoever.

-You know who I'm talking about. -Mm-hmm.

The guys that can score efficiently one-on-one.

And as we've gotten into this, like,

super analytical phase of the NBA,

there are coaches who are reading time and score.

They're reading the shot chart, the turnovers,

and they're saying, "I'm going to manage this game.

And as long as I'm up seven to ten points in this situation,

I'm not going to blitz. I'm not going to put two on the ball.

And I'm going to live with… whoever."

[LeBron chuckles]

"Going 12 for 24, for 29 to 32 points.

But you know what? I'm not going to get in rotation.

I'm not going to put two on the ball.

I'm not going to give up offensive rebounding."

-I think that's really interesting. -It is.

-How far did that get the Hawks? -[both chuckle]

What's wild about that is they blitzed more

than anybody in the league and then they decided not to blitz.

And Luka had 70.

I know. Anyways, my point is, there are certain guys that can do it

and you live with it.

And there are certain plays and actions that cause a reaction

and you get two on the ball.

The whole thing with defense, at least to me right now,

-is, can we stay out of rotation? -Can you stay out of rotation?

And what are you willing to give up? It's not what you're willing to stop.

-You can't stop. -Yeah.

The players in certain teams and the coaching now…

It's very-- It's super, super diversified and super tricky.

And they're always trying to-- they're just reading to see what you do.

Okay, that's how they played it. Okay, we got a counter for that.

There's a counter for that.

So it's not what you're willing to stop, it's what you're willing to give up.

If you go into a game and say, "Hey…

This team, they fucking shoot the three at a high clip."

They shoot 45 threes a game, 50 threes a game.

So let's take away. Try to take away the threes.

And let's live with the mid-range.

Don't foul and put them on the free-throw line

because we know that's the easiest bucket you can get.

And let's try to take away the threes.

But that's not switching when it comes to a great player.

Because you know what happens when you switch and play against a great player?

You're going to end up in rotations anyway.

Rotation anyways. Yep. 100%.

It's not switching.

It's building a defense that keeps everyone at home.

Keeps the big on the big.

The guard has to either navigate. Am I going under? Am I going over?

Depending on who the point guard or the two guard is.

And he has to work his ass off for that game

in his minutes that he's guarding that player.

And everyone has to just be ready on the backside.

Obviously, in case of emergency,

you know, guy fucking falls or, you know, something breaks down,

the big is up too high and he let the roller get behind him.

Shit changes, obviously.

By the way, I want to just show you that real quick.

-That's your second shot. -[LeBron chuckles]

-Holy shit. -[JJ] Isn't that wild?

There's nine guys inside.

[JJ] There's nine guys within 12 feet of each other.

Yeah, it's wild. We'll make sure this ends up on the video.

-That's crazy. -[JJ] Uh…

You mentioned the Luka game against Atlanta.

We actually had him right after and we talked about, uh…

What I think-- We're going to do a play breakdown here.

What I think is, like,

the most unstoppable and ridiculous cheat code in the NBA,

if you can time it right.

This is you against the Milwaukee Bucks,

um… in 2020, in March of 2020.

[LeBron] Oh, I already know what it is without even watching it.

-[JJ] What happens? -[LeBron] The Gortat Screen.

[chuckles] The Gortat Screen.

The fucking Gortat Screen is the most unstoppable…

-It's wild. -[LeBron] …play.

Like you said, if you can time it right, it can't be stopped.

I scored a few times in that game.

One, I got an and-one in the first half versus Brooke.

And the second one, I just-- I hostaged.

You call it a hostage dribble? I say put him in jail.

-You said put him in jail. -Some people call it a hostage dribble.

[JJ] You come over, they chase over the screen.

You put them on your back and then you just kind of hostage dribble.

-And now, I'm waiting in that clip. -[JJ] Yeah.

-[LeBron] As soon as I saw JaVale... -[JJ] Yeah.

[LeBron] ...Gortat it, that's why I took off.

-[JJ] Yeah. -[LeBron] Luka does it.

-They teach it. -[JJ] Yes.

[LeBron] J-Kidd and his staff, they teach that. They teach it.

The, um… My favorite part about that clip, by the way,

so, Marcin Gortat was a teammate of mine in Orlando.

-When he was in Washington with John Wall… -[LeBron chuckling]

…he started doing this.

I actually asked him about this, today, on the flight here.

I was like, "Hey, bro, I'm going to talk about the Gortat Screen.

Where did you get it from?"

And he's like, "Ah, just reading angles.

You know, Stan really helped me in understanding the game

and I came up with it myself."

And then he said he has three other screening angles

that he hasn't shared with anybody. So, I'm like, I got to see this shit.

But anyways, Marcin Gortat would run this with John Wall.

If you remember, a lot of teams would go under John.

-[LeBron] Exactly. -[JJ] Right?

So, as they would set the pick lower and lower,

they would keep switching the pick lower and lower.

Or flipping the pick lower and lower.

John would eventually get over the top.

And the big, right, John was treated as a non-shooting threat.

We got to protect the rim against John Wall.

The big would be so far back

that Marcin, instead of rolling to the basket,

-would just go run right into the big. -And just run.

And then, you know, he would either run straight into him

with his back towards his offensive player or act like he's on a fake post-up

and then, just turn around.

It's so amazing that Marcin has a…

He has this, like, Marcin Gortat has this entire concept.

You have like the Karl Malone area.

You know, you have like certain things that we have in our game.

-Iverson cut. -The Iverson cut, yeah.

And the Iverson cut. There's one more. There's a couple more.

My favorite, though, part about that particular clip,

if you really slow down and watch it,

you had to have just said, "JaVale, Gortat Screen."

He doesn't even look at you or the ball.

-[LeBron] At all. -[JJ] He sets the pick.

He kind of out of the corner of his eyes sees that you have him in jail.

-Have him in jail. Right to Brooke. -[JJ] And he runs directly to Brooke.

-Right to Brooke. -I see it now on drives, too.

-It's not just in pick-and-roll. -Yeah.

Draymond does it all the time.

[LeBron] Draymond did it on me the other night,

but he grabbed my fucking arm.

-He wouldn't fucking let my arm go. -[JJ chuckles]

[LeBron] He had me in jail and put the handcuffs on me.

-It's great. -[LeBron] No, it's great.

It's great. So, anyways, look for that.

-Yeah, look for that. -Look for that.

And again, it goes back to-- You dunked the ball.

-You dunked the ball. -But…

JaVale McGee is going to get no credit on that.

That should be the assist. You're absolutely right.

-100%. 100%. -You're absolutely right.

But that's sacrifice.

Um… [sighs]

Going back to spacing.

I love just weaving in and out of this shit.

Going back to spacing.

Yeah, I feel like a 911 Turbo S right now. Just weaving out of traffic.

Not all spacing is created equal.

And by that I mean, you can play 5-out.

Right? You can play 5-out. You can keep the paint… clear.

-[LeBron] Yeah. -But not every player--

As you said earlier, by the way, which is important,

not everybody has to be a 40% shooter. You have to be a threat from three.

-[LeBron] Absolutely. -You have to be a threat.

-Draymond plays in spacing. -[JJ] Yeah.

Shawn Marion played in spacing.

You know, there's certain guys that plays in spacing.

And…

But it's your IQ that creates the space.

Draymond's biggest asset, offensively,

is being able to know that guys are going to sag off them

because they're… daring them to shoot.

And Draymond's smart enough to say,

"You idiots, I'm not going to shoot the ball.

Y'all playing so far off me, so when I catch it in space,

I'm going to find one of my deadly two guys, Klay or Steph,

and I'm going to DHO to those guys and get a clean hit.

And because you're so far off me, you're not going to be able to contest.

And then when you run up out of control…

I know that my greatest asset is my pocket pass game four-on-three."

[JJ] Yeah.

That's playing in space.

Right. The over-- This is like-- This is the Duncan Robinson.

This is the Kyle Korver. This is, of course, Ray Allen.

You get to that dribble handoff,

-you're the big. -[LeBron] Yeah.

[JJ] You've sagged off DeAndre Jordan with me.

You've sagged off of him. I've created the separation.

DeAndre's coming to a dribble handoff with me.

Oh, there's the overreaction.

And with Steph and Klay, there's probably not a greater overreaction.

Draymond gets behind.

I mean, and when you have a guy like you saying,

you have those guys that can play in the pocket and understand it.

Bam Adebayo. You know, we played him in the finals.

When you have Tyler Herro and Duncan Robinson

and those guys flying off,

-there has to be some chain of reaction. -[JJ] Yeah.

There has to be.

There's this, uh--

There's this concept.

It's not a concept, really, but, uh…

my friend who coaches for the Timberwolves

put up these, uh, list of attributes for basketball athleticism and…

Look, I'm not going to go through all the physical ones.

You can guess them.

You know, vertical playing, balance, coordination, agility, all that stuff.

But the cognitive side of it,

which I think we touched on it quite a bit in episode one,

but there's one in particular I want to talk about today.

So, the cognitive side of it is pattern recognition,

spatial awareness, which is court mapping,

anticipation, cognitive load, mental bandwidth,

essentially your process.

Your process, yep.

So the court mapping part, I think, is really interesting.

So there's a bunch of guys that do it,

I think, at a higher level than anyone else.

And the analogy I would use

is if you were to, um…

to get a new car, and let's say this new car,

-it was like, 19-- Uh, we'll say 2009... -[LeBron] Okay.

…before Apple CarPlay, before Android Google Play.

You remember, you used to get a car and the map would have to download.

-Yeah. Yeah. -[JJ] Okay.

So there's some guys, the map only gets 30% downloaded.

[chuckling]

There's some guys, maybe it gets 60% downloaded.

There's a lot of guys that I think are at like 80 or 90%.

The map has been downloaded

so that you can actually start the car and get most places you want to go.

Yeah. [chuckles]

And then there's like a handful of guys, the map is 100% downloaded.

And they've mapped the whole court.

Their pattern recognition is a ten out of ten.

-Their anticipation is a ten out of ten. -[LeBron] Mm-hmm.

And that, to me, is a game changer.

We're talking about the-- not all spacing is created equal.

You remember in your game the other night against the Warriors,

Steph's over in the corner.

Gary Payton is in the left wing and Steph is pointing at him. Right?

Ball's all the way on the right side, all the way in the right corner,

Steph is pointing at him, pointing at Gary Payton.

Because his man is all the way in the middle of the paint.

So he knows if you swing it to Gary Payton…

The DHO happens, and he came off, faked the three, resurfaced,

shot it, and-one. Rui Hachimura talked shit to D'Lo.

Yeah.

It's part of the reason I don't-- Again, it's personnel-based.

I talked to my teammates today.

-About that? -About that, about that.

About Steph Curry.

In the film session, we had film today

and we watched clips of Golden State,

we watched clips of the Hawks game that we just had our last two games.

There was a clip where we gave up way too much space to Klay.

We got caught looking at the ball in the air.

The ball finds the ball in the post to one of the Golden State Warriors.

And for a split second, we had one of our guys looking at the ball.

And as soon as that happened,

Steph set a rip on Klay and he gets the three.

The next clip we show, we show...

I had Steph in transition and Steph cuts back door

and I'm body on body.

I didn't fucking look at the ball the whole time.

-And I know that goes against every coach. -Yeah.

Ball, you, basket, see the ball, see the ball, the ball is the problem.

The ball is not the problem with Steph Curry.

-He's the fucking problem. -He's the problem.

Steph is most dangerous when he doesn't have the ball.

Which is not--

There's not many guys all time in our league

-that's most dangerous without the ball. -Yeah.

I'm telling them, "Listen, guys…

I've been in more than enough wars with those guys.

More than enough. I understand it. So I get it. I get it."

I'm coming from a different point of view, POV.

But when Steph decides to cut inside the lane, don't relax.

-He's coming back up. -[JJ] Right.

-Yeah. -[LeBron] He's coming back up.

But you have to have-- that's reps and reps

and reps and reps of actually guarding something that's uncomfortable.

Guarding Steph is uncomfortable.

And the problem with our guys in our league,

they're not comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Mm.

And that's why Steph and Golden State will always be relevant.

Because they play an uncomfortable style of play.

Do you hate that?

I hate it when you don't have the personnel to match.

-[LeBron chuckling] -I'm just using the word "hate."

I hate it.

Going back to that Gary Payton play though.

I know the play you're talking about.

No, I know. But hold on.

But this is, so… there's an anomaly to this, of course.

I really hate the dunker spot.

I'm not gonna make the same mistake as episode one.

-It's all good. -No, no.

-I really hate the dunker spot. -[LeBron chuckling]

[JJ] I do.

I think there's a time and place for it.

-I think there's a time and place for it. -Fucks with the spacing?

-Yeah. Yes. -Obviously. Obviously, it does.

I like when I'm watching games or I'm watching film

and I see no one in the paint.

So think about it this way.

If Aaron Gordon was always in the dunker spot

and they go to their 5-out splits.

They throw it to Jokić.

They start running the back screen to a slip.

-He's going to be in the way. -He's going to be in the way.

-There's a time and place. -Okay. I like that.

There's a time and place for the dunker spot.

-Time and place. -70-30? 80-20?

-I would say 70-30. -70-30.

-But on that team… -75-25.

On that team… it's a different thing because of Jokić and the court mapping.

Yeah. The court mapping. For sure.

There's a play from March 2nd that I love.

End game. You know what they're running, two-man.

[LeBron] Yep, two-man.

[JJ] Jokić crosses the court on the right side.

Jamal Murray's got the ball on the left side.

They're going to go to that high pick-and-roll. Murray to his right hand.

-[LeBron] Correct. -And Jokić--

-I think it was Peyton Watson. He's like… -Stay on the other side.

[JJ] No. He said, go to the right corner. So Peyton Watson was--

Left wing goes to right corner.

They get to their two man. It eventually ends up with Jokić.

Gordon's doing cat and mouse on the baseline.

-And he spins and it looked like a shot. -[LeBron] He's by the shot.

-And he does like this. -[JJ] Yeah.

-And lob dunk, right? -Lob dunk. Yeah.

-[JJ] That is court mapping. -[LeBron] It is.

Because he knew getting that guy over there.

He knew getting that guy over there… would make--

You have to make the tough decision. Do I help on his spin?

-Do I let him score? -[LeBron] Yep.

Do I stay home on Aaron Gordon?

Yep. And it helps.

Then it's the anticipation, the cognitive load, all that stuff.

So, I mean, I saw a stat on Jokić last year

and I don't know the exact number…

but in the finals, in the finals versus Miami,

he shot like 70% from the free-throw line in.

Like catching the ball at the free-throw line either...

[JJ] Yeah.

...this or floaters when he catches in the pocket, like 74%.

That's insane.

So, when he turns and he's going to this…

you're thinking, "Okay, let me try to get a contest."

Meanwhile, he has Aaron Superman Gordon flying in from the corner.

-By the way, give credit to Aaron Gordon. -Absolutely.

[JJ] Because he's figured that out. Part of it out.

The reason I don't normally like the dunker spot, though, is because…

I think what Gary Payton did and what Ben Simmons did

and… to an extent in L.A., when we ran 5-out, we called it delay.

When we ran delay, we would have Ben or Blake at the top

and DJ in one of the slots.

And then he's screening for off the ball for Jamal, for me, for CP, whatever.

-It's just harder to guard them. -[LeBron] Yeah.

[JJ] Um… This is again…

[LeBron] Aaron Gordon unlocked everything for…

-[JJ] 100%. -[Lebron] Yeah. For them.

This is again… terrible.

-I like your courts. -As-- The more…

The more wine I've had, the worse these courts have got. All right.

I'm gonna put a dunker spot guy. That is the dunker spot guy.

-[Lebron] Okay. -All right.

-So you're in ISO on the left wing. -Yep.

-I'm very curious about this. -[LeBron] Yep.

And if you don't want to give away secrets, that's fine.

[chuckling]

Obviously, if you look at, uh…

Fuck it, I'll troll. If you look at, uh, 1980s, 1990s, right?

And you had an ISO on the left wing, this is what you're looking at, right?

-There's no two-nine. -[LeBron] No, no. You can't move.

-[JJ] Literally right there. -[LeBron] Can't move.

In today's NBA, this guy can two-nine.

[LeBron] All the way over, two-nine's all the way strong.

But let's say he just floods all the way, this guy moves inside.

Okay, so, now you're looking at, essentially, defense,

defense, defense, defense, plus the guy on the ball.

[LeBron] Yeah. Boxes and elbows.

-[JJ] Yeah. On the left wing. -[LeBron] Yep.

I hate it. I don't like it.

I don't--

What is your-- What is your sort of checklist here on this?

-Depends on what the clock is. -Okay.

Obviously, if I don't... if I have more time on the shot clock,

then I'm going to rearrange that lineup.

Meaning, I'm sorry,

-not line up, alignment. -Alignment, yeah, yeah.

I'm going to rearrange the alignment to make it better for not only me,

but for the team.

I don't like catching on the wing

and sitting on the wing and allowing a defender, X5,

to come over and tilt strong side, clean this up and just stay there.

X4, X3, or X2, gets us inside to big on the other side.

Now, you got the boxes and the elbows covered.

If I have enough time…

I'm going to send one of my strong--

my best shooter on the floor to the strong corner.

Strong corner.

So, now, if they want to tilt strong side, I create the three-on-two.

I want to create the three-on-two.

It'd be very difficult…

So just to be clear on that, you want to create the three-on-two.

So by sending the top guy, essentially, to the strong side,

your side, you want to now get middle.

-Yes. -Create a two on the ball.

Now you've got a three-on-two.

And if that big wants to stay on the strong side that I was ISO,

I got too much room to work with on that side for my teammates.

And it's not about for me. It's about creating the advantage on the other side.

There's not much advantage when I'm sitting on the wing

and I have four guys staring at me.

Yeah.

If it's short clock, obviously, my job is to tell the big

that's being, you know, in the paint, in the dunker,

you've got to duck in, get to the middle of the rim to make him guard you.

So when I do swing, we do have an advantage on the other side.

But I don't like that alignment. I'm more of a three-one guy.

When I have the ball,

I like my best shooter in the strong corner.

Either from the left wing or the right wing.

And I like a three-line assembled on the other side.

You want to get the flood guy the fuck out of there, basically.

Yeah. And I like a guy down in the--

I know you don't like the dunker. But I like him down.

And then, a guy in the corner, guy on the slot.

No, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. I will say this.

On a left wing or right wing ISO or post-up,

-I've got no problem with the dunker. -That's good.

Because if no one's at the basket in that spot,

if you're the only guy on the side of the court,

and everybody's around the three-point line,

-then everybody can help. -Yeah…

You have to put some pressure on the rim with the dunker in that situation.

I'm talking about balls up top,

either in the right high quadrant, left high quadrant, or top of the key.

It's pretty bad spacing. I agree. It's pretty bad spacing. I agree.

All right.

We did the Gortat play. I want to go through two more plays.

-And we'll do everything. -[JJ] We're going to…

We'll add these to whatever episode we decide we want to add them to.

-[LeBron chuckles] -Um… all right.

So the one specific play I want to go through with you

is the block in game seven.

-Okay. -Of 2016.

Okay.

[JJ] Take me through what preceded on the offensive end…

to your mindset in that chase-down.

If my mind is serving me right, both teams can score.

Three minutes, three, four minutes of game, of actual game time,

so when you're in the game, it actually feels like it's fucking 25, 30 minutes.

Um…

I think it was 89-89 at the time, if I'm not mistaken.

And at that point in time,

I felt like Kyrie could get us the best shot.

And, um, if I'm not mistaken,

I believe Kyrie drove, got a great look, shot up a floater.

And I'm sitting in the corner by their bench. I'm opposite Kyrie.

I'm sitting in the corner by their bench.

In my head, I said…

if I'm correct with the trajectory of the ball, what I'm seeing,

I got to get my ass back.

Because Iggy's going to be on a sprint.

Steph's going to be on a sprint. And we're outnumbered.

Because I'm below the free-throw line. Tristan's below the free-throw line.

Kyrie's shooting the ball, he's below the free-throw line.

And all I see is Swish, JR.

I said, "I got to get back."

As soon as the ball, when the ball is missed,

I didn't even, I didn't even-- if I was to follow my coach's order,

or coach's orders, you're supposed to get back on the race.

[JJ] On the release. Yeah.

[LeBron] On the release. Get back on the release.

I did not get back on the release.

I didn't start to actually… get back until I actually saw it was a miss.

But in my mind, I could see the ball.

I felt like it was going to be a little long.

I just hauled ass, man.

I just hauled ass.

And when I'm running, I think, if I'm not mistaken,

I don't know who it was that I kind of like,

kind of run around, I don't know who,

I don't know if it was a Golden State player or one of our guys,

I kind of had to run around or move around because I was in the left corner

and Iggy sat on the right side,

but when I run it, all I'm telling myself, I'm like…

"Swish, do not foul him."

So, you can ask any of my teammates, throughout the course of my career

or throughout the course of that season…

anytime that you see me trailing the play,

all I need is a little adjustment from the offensive player,

and I promise you, I'll track it down. Do not fucking foul him.

Do not fucking foul.

I've told the guys all year…

if you see me hauling ass,

just make him, instead of just going in for a layup,

make him change it a little bit. Just a little bit.

And Swish gets a lot of shit today because of the blunder he had

the following year, or two years later, or whenever the fuck it was,

of not understanding the time and score, whatever the case may be.

He executed that shit to perfection.

He made Iggy change his shot just a little bit.

And that's all I asked.

It's interesting because…

[LeBron] I went up with both hands, too, by the way. I was ready…

[JJ] No, you hit the rim with your left hand.

I was ready for the reverse or the strong side and I was like…

If these fucking refs call a goaltend,

I might get kicked out of this most important game of my life,

because it was still over two minutes, and you couldn't review back then,

unless it was under two minutes, because I knew I had got it clean.

That's all I was saying to myself. I said, "I'm getting this shit."

So many of your chase-downs, by the way, is you do your little run.

-You know, I'm just saying, bro. -[both chuckling]

I'm not an impressionist,

but you do your little run, and then it's like the quick burst.

You know what I mean? That was different, though.

That was like, once you said, "Okay, I got to go get this…"

-That was like, yeah… -I've got a little window to get there.

-Yeah. -[JJ] It was different.

The last leg of the fucking 4x1 relay was like…

fucking the same boat.

I was like, "I got to fucking go."

All right, I got one more play for you. Let me pull it up real quick.

We could literally do this shit all day, bro. [chuckles]

You're not on the Wi-Fi here? They didn't give you Wi-Fi?

Just hit play on that.

I already know what the fuck this play is, you motherfucker. [chuckles]

By the way, by the way, you fucked me up.

[JJ] What happened here?

What happened here is I didn't know

that your ass could go and stop and go like this. What the fuck?

I didn't know that you had that in your arsenal.

-[JJ] The little… -[LeBron] Yeah, the little rap.

Yeah, the little Hezzy rap. Yeah, the Hezzy rap.

You fucking turned me all the way around.

[JJ] I'm serious when I say this. Like…

[LeBron] I love the fact that you missed it.

-Thank you. I appreciate it. -[JJ] If I had made that shot…

-[LeBron chuckling] -If I had made that shot…

I would have that highlight pinned on every social media account

-at the very top of my account. -By the way, this is 94-94.

-In overtime. -[JJ] I know.

-How did you miss that? -I think we won like 104-98.

We won that game.

-Y'all won that game? -Yeah. Yeah.

-Yeah. -I turned all the way around.

[JJ] That was a… I think that was a lockout year.

-Shane was on the team. -[LeBron] Shane was on the team.

[JJ] Because he guarded me that game. He switched.

He was on Ryan Anderson. He switched right before.

Yeah, we got a fucking foul after that. He didn't…

God, if I had made that shot, man.

It's not a highlight. It's not a highlight.

It's not a highlight.

It should not be on YouTube as a highlight.

You know why it's on YouTube? Because it was against fucking me.

Everything is on YouTube. If it's done against me,

no matter if it's a highlight or not. Everything.

I'll take half of it. I'll take, like, a half credit.

You do know that I create super teams though, right?

-What's up? -[both chuckling]

Cheers, man. This is good.

I'm glad I didn't dive into that.

So good.

That was great. All right, we good?

He said, "Okay, I get it. This motherfucker?

Oh, this motherfucker nice." He points at me.

"This motherfucker, he gonna get his. We can't stop him.

This motherfucker, okay.

He hit his 15-foot shots and shit. Okay, all right, cool.

But this motherfucker…"

[all laughing]

"This motherfucker ain't shit.

How does he have 18 points?"

Oh, my God. That shit is so funny, man.

[JJ] Hey, guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast.

If you like it, please hit that subscribe button.

Thank you.

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