All language subtitles for Mind The Game S01E02.en-us.Dialog.Sdh

-[JJ] You're 84, too?
-[LeBron] I'm 84. Yes, sir.

[JJ] Yeah, we got bad vintages.

[LeBron] Yeah, this is one of the worst.
Oh, thank you.

[JJ] Have you spent any time
with Mark Daigneault, by the way?

-[LeBron] No.
-[JJ] Bro, he's...

he's ridiculous. He's so good.

-[LeBron] No, he's, he's--
-[JJ] He's so good.

[LeBron] Yeah, he's on his shit.

He's young. Is he younger than us?

[JJ] Yeah, I think he was,
I think he's in 85.

I looked it up,
he's younger than us.

-[cameraman] Just a smidge?
-[LeBron] Yeah.

[cameraman] We're already rolling,

-so you guys can--
-[JJ] Wow!

-[LeBron] Oh, we already rolling?
-[JJ] This is what we do.

[slow hip hop music plays]

Welcome to episode 2
of Mind the Game podcast

with LeBron James and JJ Redick,

presented by Uninterrupted
and 342 Productions.

First of all, just wanted to say thank you

for all of you who listened
and watched to episode one.

We greatly appreciate
the positive response

from all of the stuff
that we talked about.

There's a lot more

of X&O stuff

in episode 2.

The title of episode 2 is simply...

The Hardest Actions to Guard in the NBA.

No, not necessarily
the hardest players to guard,

but... some of the best
players in the world

are involved directly in
these actions, as you will see

when we break it down.

And two of the actions that we

focus primarily on in this episode

are the Golden State Split Screens

and inverted pick-and-rolls.

Before we get to the plays
that we're going to cover,

I want to go over some
of the key terminology.

Alright, the first two words
are Tilt and Fire.

I want to be clear here,

every team in the NBA has a code word

or a word for a double-team.

A lot of teams I played on,

we had a color scheme.

So blue was a double-team from the nail.

Green was a double-team
from the baseline side.

In this case, Tilt and Fire
represent those colors.

Tilt means in a post-up,

a double-team from the baseline side.

Fire means in a post-up,
a double-team from the nail,

and of course, we covered what
the nail was in episode one.

Next two terms are Hedge and Blitz,

so these are common terms
in pick-and-roll coverage.

Now, in the NBA right now,

not a lot of teams
Hedge in pick-and-rolls.

A Hedge is simply
when the screener's defender

jumps out past the screener

and tries to reroute the ball handler
around the screener's defender,

and then the screener's
defender will retreat

back to the screener.

Again, not a lot of teams
do that, primarily

because everybody
can shoot the basketball.

Sometimes in inverted pick-and-rolls,

or sometimes
as teams are targeting match-ups,

certain players will Hedge,
so, for instance,

if LeBron James is being
guarded by Jonathan Kuminga,

and he wants to get
a switch for Steph Curry,

He will have whoever
is guarding Steph Curry

come set a pick-and-roll,
and more times than not,

Steph Curry will Hedge, reroute LeBron,
and then return to his man,

that is what a Hedge is.

A Blitz is simply a double-team
on a pick-and-roll.

Alright, a Ghost Screen,
or as LeBron calls it, a Bluff Screen.

A Ghost Screen is simply when you
run into set a pick-and-roll

and you essentially don't stop,

but you just run past the pick-and-roll
and you either go

to the three-point line
or you slip to the basket,

that's what a Ghost Screen is.

It's a Ghost Screen,
because you're not really there.

You're essentially just
trying to create confusion

for the two defenders involved

in what looks like a pick-and-roll,

but is actually just a Ghost Screen.

Tag and Two-Nine go hand-in-hand.

We have a defensive
three-second rule in the NBA.

So as a defender,

you're only allowed to be in
the paint for three seconds

without guarding anyone.

There's two ways around this.

You can tag a cutter, which simply means

touching a cutter

as he goes through the paint.

Two-Nine is simply a game
of cat and mouse.

How long can you be in the paint
in a help position

while not guarding anyone

but not get a three-second violation?

One, 1,000, two, 1,000.

You're trying to be in and out

in 2.9 seconds,
that's what we mean by Two-Nine.

So when you're watching a game

and you see a player
with one foot in the paint,

one foot out of the paint,

one foot in the paint,
one foot out of the paint,

almost like a tap dance, he's Two-Nineing.

A couple other simple terms,

backside, weak side, strong side.

Strong side is simply

the side of the floor where the ball is.

So if a player is on the right wing,

the right side of the
floor is the strong side.

If a player's position in the corner

while that player has the
ball on the right wing,

then the player in the corner

is on the strong side of the floor.

If a player is in the left corner,
opposite the ball,

the other side of the court,
he's in the weak side.

Backside...

is a little bit
interchangeable with weak side.

Backside is also a play where

a player starts in a corner

opposite the ball.

Let's say the point guard passes
to the five-man at the top of the key.

The player in the corner
then receives a pindown

and comes along the three-point line

and gets a dribble
hand-off from the five-man,

that's backside.

Think Manu Ginobili in San Antonio,

or even better,

think JJ Redick in Philadelphia.

Alright, I want to go over
what is called a Varejão Screen.

A Varejão Screen is actually named after

LeBron's teammate in Cleveland,
Anderson Varejão.

And all a Varejão Screen is,
is when a screener

flips the side and angle of the screen,

let me show you.

In this case, the X's are
the offensive players,

the O's are the defensive players, so...

in this case, the big man would
run into this pick-and-roll,

the defender would follow,

and as he gets to the screen,

instead of setting the screen on this side

where the offensive player
would get to his right hand,

he simply flips the
angle on the screen side

and Varejãos it,

and the offensive player

gets to drive away from the defense

because most of the time,

this defender of the screener has followed

and is assuming he's going
to provide help defense

on this side.

Varejão.

Chaos ensues.

OK, Blind Pig is
something that we reference.

Blind pig is a triangle offense concept.

I had to guard this concept
playing against the Lakers.

Pau Gasol and Kobe Bryant would oftentimes

be the two players involved in this,

and then against the Knicks,

oftentimes it could be
Carmelo Anthony involved,

Raymond Felton, Jeremy Lin.

Essentially what Blind Pig is,

the ball is right here with this player.

Here is your offensive player,
the X, right here,

O's are the defensive player.

The X is being denied.

This is Kobe Bryant.

This year, this is Jalen Brunson.

Isaiah Hartenstein will flash
to the elbow.

The ball then goes to
Isaiah Hartenstein right here.

Jalen Brunson, who is being denied,

then has a clear path
to go receive the ball

or get a drop-off pass,
dribble hand-off, whatever,

turn the corner. Create habit. Blind pig.

Alright, Golden State Post-Splits,
a big part of this episode.

We have so much visual component to this.

You guys, hopefully, will
understand this at the end.

Again, this is another triangle concept.

Let's do a two-man Post-Split to start.
How about that?

So, here's the ball.

The ball goes into the post.

Now, this pass for Golden State
is not to score.

This pass is to get Steph Curry

and Klay Thompson into the action.

So Steph can split with Klay Thompson.

Klay can back-cut towards the basket.

He can curl towards the basket,

or he can come pop for three

and that's only one option.

There are many options in this offense.

Let's say, Kevon Looney
wants to get involved here.

They throw it into Draymond Green.

Steph goes towards Klay Thompson,

maybe Klay Thompson curls to the basket.

Kevon Looney then cleans up Steph.

Ball comes out to Steph.

That's post splits.

It's impossible to guard.

The other thing I just
wanted to tell you guys

on this episode for these drawings...

Mav drew these.

I did not draw these courts.

This clip went out on social,
America's Play, Baseline Out of Bounds,

Pick the Picker, whatever call it.

This guy underneath the basket

on a Baseline Out of Bounds play, B-O-B,

Baseline Out of Bounds.

There should be an extra O,
but who cares? It's just B-O-B.

This guy right here, that's the shooter.

This is Kyle Korver.

This is Steph Curry.

This is Ray Allen.

This is Duncan Robinson.

He's going to set a back screen
right here, a rip screen

for a bigger wing, usually.

Maybe you get a switch, maybe you don't.

Maybe you get a layup here
underneath the basket.

This guy in the corner over here,
this is Bam.

This is DeAndre Jordan with me.

This is Joel Embiid with me.

This big guy then goes and
sets a screen for the shooter

to come off towards the three-point line,

so if you don't get a layup,

you might get a three in the corner.

America's play, pick the picker.

The other concept that we
talk a lot about this episode

is inverted pick-and-roll.

Pick-and-roll, as most
basketball fans know it,

is simply a ball handler,
usually a point guard,

getting a ball screen,

so a live ball dribble

from a big guy,
a five-man, right, a center.

Think...

Kenny Smith and Hakeem Olajuwon.

Think... John Stockton and Karl Malone.

Think Kobe and Shaq, right?

It's a pick-and-roll.

A normal pick-and-roll.

The smaller player has the ball,

the bigger player sets a screen for him.

Inverted pick-and-roll
is simply when you invert that.

In this case,
a bigger player has the ball,

and a smaller player,
oftentimes a really good shooter,

sets a ball screen for the bigger player.

Very rare that big guys can do this,

but certainly, a lot of them can.

Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokić,

Anthony Davis, Giannis, of course.

Bigger wings will also run
inverted pick-and-rolls,

so this is Duncan Robinson
setting a pick-and-roll for Jimmy Butler.

This is me setting a screen
for Ben Simmons.

That is an inverted pick-and-roll.

We actually had a call in Philadelphia.

It was called 12 Rub Rifle,

so 12 was just a one, two pick-and-roll.

I'm the two man.

Ben was the one man.

Rub was our name for a high pick-and-roll,

which means in the center of the court.

Rifle, I'll get to that in a second.

So an inverted pick-and-roll
would be the smaller player

setting a screen for Ben Simmons, right?

If I set a good screen,
Ben could get to the basket.

Sometimes I would slip to three, though.

In that case, Ben would throw me the ball
and sometimes,

like against San Antonio
Spurs late in the game,

I would make the shot and get fouled

and have a four-point
play to hit a game-winner.

But other times,
this would be Joel Embiid.

This is the rifle part.

The rifle just means chase action.

Sometimes the definition
of a concept is in the word.

If I said, go chase the ball,
what are you going to do?

You're going to pass the ball
and run after it.

So 12 Rub Rifle is a inverted,
high pick-and-roll,

followed by chase action,

so If I didn't have a shot,

I would throw the ball to Joel Embiid,

and we'd go right into
chase dribble hand-off.

12 Rub Rifle.

Miami Heat, game 4, 2018 playoffs.

Dagger.

[slow hip hop music plays]

Do you look at basketball...

as a puzzle in some ways?

I was with Mazzulla

in September, he said,
"Competition is a puzzle

and you have to approach
it through intellect."

And what I find when I talk to you

or when I talk to CP
or I listen to you guys,

Rondo, of course, who we
had on the pod last year,

it's like, it's exploitation.

[laughs]

I used the word manipulation once
with Chris and he did not like that word.

So I'm gonna use a different word today.
It's exploitation.

You're exploiting and sometimes
it's maybe basketball IQ,

sometimes you're maybe
exploiting a match-up.

I know that I was exploited
a lot at the end of my career,

'cause by that time,
it was about target hunting.

And oftentimes, when I was on the court,

I was the target. And it's exploitation.

Pick on the white guy, huh?

This is bullshit, man.
I don't like that, man.

-It bothered me so much.
-[LeBron laughs]

I mean, I remember, dude,

when I was with Philly,

and like, we ended up not playing you

but, like, that first year in Philly,

'cause I was guarding
point guards that year.

'Cause Ben wasn't good enough
on the ball yet.

They had him guarding bigger wings,

so I had to guard point guards
the first time in my career.

So, like, all of a sudden I'm navigating

a pickup point
with Damian Lillard at 45--

People would never
understand that, either.

People that just
watch casual basketball

would never understand if you've
been guarding two guards

or small fours, whatever,
your whole career,

and then one year,
you have to make the shift

to now guarding point guards,

it's a whole different...

Your antenna is now, like-

-It was so different.
-Screens are coming,

you're not used to
getting hit with screens.

It's a whole different--
If the big don't talk to you,

you get cracked, you're like,
"What the fuck are you guys doing there?"

And nine times outta 10, most bigs
are not gonna talk anyways.

I remember a game
with Charlotte and Kemba Walker.

-He's a shifty.
-He's a shifty motherfucker.

He's doing that left-drop move,
and I'm like, "Come on, man."

Like, what am I supposed to do?

Yeah.

I remember we played you
guys a few times that year,

and I'm on the point guard,
and you're just,

[smacks lips] "Come here," every time.

-[laughs]
-Fuck LeBron.

-Fuck, LeBron.
-[LeBron laughs]

[LeBron] That's T-Lue,
that's not me.

You know, my basketball
IQ's not that good.

But I think part of it,

it's not for me, at least as like a,

when I played, of course,

-but also as an observer now.
-Yeah.

Part of the match-up thing.

So if I go switch on you.

-Mm-hmm.
-Right?

You've now got
a favorable match-up.

Part of it is not just so
that you can get a shot,

part of it, like,
basketball boils down to,

-can you put two on the ball?
-Yeah, and now you create

the four on three on the backside.

-Yeah.
-I don't think many people know that.

You know why?

Because everyone now is a
narrative of this thing called,

I have a bag.

-Hmm.
-Or he doesn't have a bag.

It bothers the fuck out of me.

Everyone thinks just because
you get a favorable match-up

that it means
it's one-on-one time.

"Let's play ones."
That's all you hear the kids talk about.

"You wanna play ones?
You wanna play ones?"

What the fuck is this?

This is not Jordan versus Bird Nintendo.

[laughs]

Like, [laughs] it's five-on-five.

And, yes,
if you have an opportunity

to have a favorable match-up
and you can beat your man,

but realize something,

most great teams are going to send help

and can you make the right reads?

Can you make the right reads?

Can you instill confidence
in your teammates to win?

You've scored twice on
that favorable match-up.

Do you know that the double is coming,

and you have to see it either coming
from the tilt on the baseline,

or from the Fire from the Nail.

You have to be ready for that.

And it takes time for guys.

And some guys don't
wanna learn and won't learn,

because they just wanna play ones.

I've had guys on the court

that literally said to me before,

"Why y'all doubling me?

Stop doubling me, let me play ones.

You have 40."

-[laughs]
-No, no, you have 40.

We're gonna double you,

not because--

Not only because you're great,

but also I know none of your teammates
have been in a rhythm all game.

And we're gonna see if
they can make a shot.

And if they do, Derek Jeter,
salute cap to you.

Two things on that.

I think the Clippers game the other night
was a great example of that.

So first of all, they're one
of the most switch-heavy teams

-in the NBA.
-They are.

So it wasn't abnormal

that you got going
in the fourth quarter

and they were switching
Daniel Theis onto you.

-That's their normal defense, right?
-[LeBron] It is.

You hit a couple shots on him,
then they start doubling, right?

And then you're making the read.

There's a downhill

or like a snowball effect going
down a hill to this, right?

It's like one thing leads to another.
So I think in some ways,

the player has to establish

that he can score
in that match-up.

[LeBron] Correct.

And then the next part is,
he has to establish,

he's going to then
make the right read--

-[LeBron] Correct.
-...if you double.

Then if you're the offensive team,

all bets are off, you're
gonna get whatever you want.

The defense has no choice.

There is nothing they can do.

Not only are they off balance,

they just like, "Oh, shit,
it's nothing we can do."

Because not only is the guy

that's been dominating
the one-on-one match-up,

making the right reads
individually in that match-up,

he's been scorned,
he's been getting fouled,

he's been drawing attention.

But now, you're seeing the double

and now his teammates
are making shots, too.

And the momentum shifts.

The offensive team,
there's nothing they can do wrong.

Do you think teams
concede the switch too much?

Yes.

Do you think more teams should just,

if you're Atlanta, should you
just hedge with Trae Young?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

It's funny you say that
in the Clipper game,

[laughs] we had switching
built-in versus Kawhi,

and versus James,
and whatever the case may be,

and vetoed it in the second half.

Because I know T-Lue
more than any other player

that's ever been with T-Lue,

and I know he plays target ball, too.

And it got to a point where,

I knew in order for us
to get back into the game,

switching anybody else into Kawhi,

it's not favorable for us.

I might as well just get
ready for the Wizards.

So I vetoed it.

Are you able to do that
on a nightly basis, though?

Like, take that match-up.

-[LeBron exhales sharply]
-It's asking a lot, LeBron.

-It's asking a lot.
-At 39, would...

I think I saw it the other day.

I think I have, like, 70,000 minutes.

I was explaining to my wife the other day.

She asked me how am I feeling
when I came home after the game.

[sniffs]

I said, "Babe,

just imagine buying a 2003 Escalade

and it's 2024,

and you never change the tires.

So rub my feet, please."

-[JJ laughs]
-[laughs]

And I've never changed the tires.

These are the same tires from 2003.

So can I do it every night?

I don't wanna say I could
do it for a whole game.

I mean, I'll take the challenge for sure,

but that's just I'm a competitor.

I was born that way.
I was taught that way.

I'll fucking-- I'll die on the court,

because I just love it so much.

Am I being realistic?

I gotta pick my spots.
Definitely gotta pick my spots.

You've also picked your spots, though,
on the offense then.

Like I was talking with Darvin about this
and I've spoken with Austin, too.

There's definitely a stronger ability.

I don't wanna know if
ability is the right word,

but a stronger ability,

like, to just let DLo run the offense

to let Austin run the offense.

And I know you had that
at different points

in your career with different guys,

but it seems like you're more content
at this stage in your career

to, like, I'm gonna
pick and choose my spots

about when I'm the primary creator--

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean I...

Yeah. It comes with trust.

It comes with trust, too.

Obviously, last year
in the Memphis series,

AR gained a lot of trust from me,

but also had trust
in him to make the plays.

I believe it was game three, maybe,
or game two.

I think they had home court.

So it was either game one or game two,

where in the fourth quarter I,

you know, just was like,

AR, let's go win it for us, you know?

And I wanted to see like it's,
I play a lot of chess, not in real life.

Actually, you know a lot
of people have told me,

"You should play chess,
because you'll be great."

I've never played chess.

But in my mind- In my mind, in theory,

I feel like I played chess on the floor,

and I feel like if I could
get AR and instill AR

and that confidence in that fourth quarter

to make plays and win that game,

it was just gonna pay dividends

for the rest of my time with him,

and the rest of his time
when I'm not with him.

You know, I love seeing the success

of my teammates more than anything.

Like, and so to have the
ability now to be just like,

"I pick my spots. Hey, DLo, you got it."

You know, "AR, you got it," you know?

It means a lot, not only for me,
but for our ball player.

All right, I'm gonna go
over these Blitz numbers,

we're talking about two on the ball,
and this is interesting.

So this year, top five players
that have been Blitz and pick-and-roll.

-Luka by a lot.
-By far.

Almost 200 more Blitzes.

-[LeBron] For sure.
-And then everybody,

the next four guys
are bunched together.

It's Brunson, Anthony, Simmons,
Dame, and Book.

Top five by ISO, Giannis, Kawhi,

Julius Randle, Anthony Davis,
and Banchero.

-Those are the top five.
-Banchero top five?

Yep.

It's interesting, I looked up your
Blitz numbers in the tracking era.

And you were first in ISO
doubles in '13 and '14,

second in '15, '16,

and top 10 in '17, '18, and '19, '20.

You've never actually been in the top 20

in Blitzes
against pick-and-rolls.

Why do you think that is?

Because I make all the right reads.

-It's that simple, right?
-It's that simple.

Teams know they can't
Blitz me in a pick-and-roll.

But what's interesting about Luka,

I think he's one of a
handful of guys in this era

that can make any pass
against the double-team.

-Any.
-James is one of them.

-Yep.
-You are, for sure,

-Luka is one of them.
-Yep.

So why are you Blitzing him?

I don't understand it.
Especially with the shooting,

-they surrounded me too.
-Yeah.

It doesn't make sense.

The Brunson thing has
been since Randall's out.

The uptick in Blitz
has gone way up, right?

-For sure. They don't have that.
-I get that.

I get that as well, you know?
You have to--

He is a one-headed monster
right now with the Knicks,

and they Blitzing him and
making other guys beat him.

I saw Golden State do it a lot last night
as well before our game.

But yeah, it doesn't...

Because he is gonna make every read

and when Tim Hardaway is hitting
six or seven threes, you're done.

-Yeah.
-Kyrie's gonna get,

Kyrie's gonna do what Kyrie does.

Luka's gonna do what he does.

But when you get Tim Hardaway
hitting six or seven threes

and in our game earlier this year,

we Blitzed Luka and Dante Exum hit five.

-[JJ] Oh, that's right, yeah.
-Six threes.

Yeah, that...

[laughs]

Yes, I--

I guess what's interesting
to me with great players,

'cause everybody always
talks about mixing it up.

You gotta mix up the coverage of
pick-and-roll, you got to mix up,

how you double, when you double,
all that stuff, right?

So for example, just
so we're clear on this.

When you double, by that, what I mean is,

the guy's in the mid-post in
isolation against the mismatch.

Is it on the dribble?

-Is it on the catch?
-Yeah, exactly.

[JJ] How you double, is it-
As you said, tilt.

Is it coming from the baseline the nail?

You have to talk about
those things.

I just think with spacing
and with shooting,

there's just no good answer.
So if people want explanations

about why we're having
all these scoring outputs,

it's because there's not
a good fucking answer.

-No.
-Atlanta Blitz is the most in the NBA.

They decided not to Blitz Luka Dončić,

because they were worried
about the consequences.

-[both] And he had 73.
-Yes, 73.

There's just not good answers
for the best players right now.

No, and it's the--

And it goes back to the three-point
shooting as you said.

Teams are afraid of teams

hitting six or seven

or eight threes in a game right now.

So this is where all
the switching occurs now.

Everyone's saying,
"OK, let's get to the switches.

At least, we will keep everybody home."

But then you realize when you switch

a non-favorable defender
on a great player,

if that great player knows
it's gonna make the reads,

they're gonna get threes anyways,
because they're gonna drive,

there's gonna be a help,
and there's gonna be a numbers game.

So it doesn't matter.
So it has to come to a point,

it's like, what are we willing to give up?

Not what are we willing to stop.
You can't stop great guys.

You can't stop great players.
You just hope they miss,

but what are we willing to give up?

And then
you have to just tip your head,

like these scoring outputs is insane.

I wish I was back in, like,

-[Redick laughs]
-2012 right now.

With the young tires.

-With the young tires.
-Yeah.

-The tires with only 11,000 miles on it.
-Yeah. [laughs]

The switching thing is
interesting too to me,

because there's certain teams

that can put switch-heavy lineups
out there, right?

You need the personnel to
be able to switch.

-You do.
-And you need

to be able
to trust certain guys.

So like, Ty Lue clearly trusts
his bigs to be a switch.

To the point, like

going back to Luka,
I played on that team in '21

that lost in game seven
against the LA Clippers.

-Yeah.
-And he trusted Zubac

to switch onto Luka that entire series,

despite the fact that Luka was killing him

'cause he didn't wanna
get in rotation, right?

So what's interesting to me though

about the switching
against switchable lineups.

Like so you have five
guys that are capable,

is how creative teams have gotten

with defeating the switches.

So it's two of the hardest actions
to guard, to me right now,

are Ghost Screens
with a great shooter.

Yeah.

And running into a pick-and-roll,

it's not a traditional slip.

You run into a pick-and-roll,

you touch the guys back
and get behind.

[LeBron] You get
behind the defense.

And if you have a guy like
Kristaps Porziņģis

-or Jayson Tatum that is doing that.
-[LeBron] Yeah.

You can't guard that. So you could be,
"Oh, yeah, we're gonna switch."

Teams have now figured out
ways to exploit switching.

I mean, I know Washington
is in the shitter,

but even last night,
in our match-up last night,

we got to a switching lineup,

but Kuz was hip-tapping AR,

and we were calling switch,

and AR, two times couldn't get back to Kuz

and he was able to get into the lane.

He missed one, made one.

But exactly what you're just saying,

like teams are figuring out ways to,

when the switches happen,

how can I exploit a switch?

[JJ] That's interesting, you
brought up the hip tap too.

So like on the Ghost Screen,
you called it a Bluff Screen.

-Yep.
-The Ghost Screen.

Like you guys used to,
when I was in New Orleans,

KCP, I guard him,
he would do this all the time.

So let's say we are in
a switch defensively,

we're in a switch.

If the guy slips on a Ghost Screen,
my job is to go with him.

[LeBron] Yeah, call square.

-[JJ] Right?
-Square, square, slip, slip.

But offensive players, as they're
running up in the screen,

they tap the guy on the hip.
You're switch on contact

where you feel the contact,
you think it's a switch,

now the ball hand is yours.
I'm doing my job 'cause he slipped,

so I'm going with him.
That's why it's hard.

That's why it's hard.

We can have these rules,
but then you gotta do it in real time.

That's why NBA is the
best league in the world.

That's why it's hard for me
to watch my son play college basketball.

-[both laugh]
-You want to go there?

-I--
-Why is it--

I loved you in college basketball,
but I loved watching you.

I love Duke now because K is my guy now,

obviously, for obvious reasons.

But it is hard watching
a 40-minute college basketball game.

It's hard. I almost...

I get more anxiety and I sweat more

watching college basketball,
especially my son,

now than I've ever done in my life.

I still watch...

legitimate teams, ranked teams.

[LeBron laughs]

They will run a play...

and their best player will
get the ball on the wing

and they will have

a non-threat big man

posting up on the same side.

And the guard or the wing
will drive into the occupied post

and I'm like, guys, it's 2024,
we can all watch YouTube,

there's a wealth of information out there,

why are we still playing this way?

I've never understood

why a coach...

will throw the ball
into a post with his big

that has no business with
the ball in the post.

The only time the ball should
go into the post to the big

if he's automatically,
as soon as he catches it,

flat in the defense, he goes
right back into a DHO uphill.

Uphill DHO.

Roll, if he's not a pocket
passer, you can't throw it,

you throw it to the rim

or his job is to just shrink the defense

because his role was so dynamic.

I watch college games

and I see guys throw
the ball in the post of guys

and they'll turn around
and shoot a jump shot

or a running left-hand jump hook.

This one drives me crazy.

You see a few young NBA guys that,

because we don't post anymore,

unless you're like Joel Embiid,
Jokić, right?

Right.

You see guys get a rebound
and the defense will be on it--

The big-guy shoot.
That's not a real shot, man.

[both] That's not a real shot.

There's one other thing
you can do on the post

which leads me to, God,
fucking segue's so good, man, I love it.

-It's a good conversation.
-No, it's great.

Somebody asked me this the
other day, they're like,

triangle concepts, nobody runs
the triangle anymore, right?

Does it exist in the NBA?

And the truth,
there are still concepts that exist.

-The Chicago Cut.
-[LeBron] Yup.

[JJ] Which was when you
throw it in the post,

the guard would cut through,
screen in the middle of the paint,

for the big guy,
you don't want to switch that.

If you do switch,
Peković from Minnesota

would catch the ball at five feet
and jump hook.

-[LeBron] Yup.
-[JJ] Easy breezy.

Teams don't really run
the Chicago cut anymore.

The two things that they
still run, Blind Pig.

-Which New York runs for Brunson.
-Yup.

Where Hartenstein or Mitchell
Robertson flashes the elbow.

-[LeBron] Yup.
-You deny Brunson,

he's getting that back cut going downhill,

they'll get into the step-up pick-a-rolls

-with Blind Pig action.
-Yup.

And then the Golden State Post-Split.

-The splits.
-The post-splits.

I have been wanting to have this
conversation with you for so many years.

Because I have said,
Golden State Post-Splits,

specifically with that team

is like the hardest action to guard.

I was doing research on
something else the other day

and I was looking up,

for a Boston game,

because Porziņģis has
the highest efficiency

in the tracking era for points
per direct post-up, right?

Every time they switch smaller guy on him.

-[LeBron] It's over.
-He's mashing, whatever.

Draymond was at the top
of the list for a bunch of years.

In 18/19, he had the highest efficiency
on post-ups of any player in the NBA.

You're like,
Draymond doesn't store in the post.

But they're throwing him the ball

and either Steph and Klay
are running their action.

We saw back in '22,
Wiggins would be the screener,

slip for the dunk.
They also involved the big.

Steph and Klay are doing their dance.
Looney then comes and cleans it up.

Because the big that's guarding
Looney is in the paint.

Exactly.
It's the hardest thing to guard.

-You guarded it at four straight finals.
-Yup.

What are your thoughts
on how to defend it?

[sighs] When Draymond catches
the ball in the post

the first thing you have to do,
you have to track his eyes.

You can't track the ball because
Draymond has the ability,

they started to take out
on our league, the swipe-through.

So obviously he has his
back towards the basket,

you have to track his eyes

because if you track
the ball with your hand

he'll go underneath your arms
to get that foul.

The second thing you have to do,
you have to get the bodies right away.

And you can't get to the top
side because Steph and Klay

are great at backdoorsing into the rim.

You have to get to the lower hip of them

and whosever setting the screen

has to give a little space
so you don't allow the slip

and the guy that's guarding

either Steph or Klay that's coming off,

you have to get to the
bottom hip of their shoulder

and trail them all the way out.

The two most important people

in the whole thing is
the two guys' weak side.

When they have certain shooters out there

it's very difficult

but nine times out of ten,

when were playing them in the finals

it was, at times, it was
JaVale McGee, Iguodala,

-it was Andrew Bogut.
-[JJ] Shaun Livingston.

Shaun Livingston, Harrison Barnes.

When everything went haywire...

[laughs]

When it was fucking Kevin Durant
over there and another shooter.

It was like, impossible to guard

because you couldn't
help from the weak side

because now Draymond's
such a great IQ player,

if you tag from the guy on the weak side,

he throws it all the way across court.

You can actually see, there's a play

that you can watch
on YouTube probably,

where they were taking
the ball out on SOB.

-Side out-of-bounds.
-Yeah, not son of a bitch, sorry guys.

[both laugh]

Side out-of-bounds.

I was getting ready, I was
Two-Nineing on the strong side

because they were about to
give me some split action.

Steph takes the ball out

and throws it all the way
to the weak side corner

by their bench,
and I try to close out the KD,

because I'm looking,
trying to shrink the floor.

He throws it from the
sideline out-of-bounds

all the way across,
I close out, slips,

falls on the ground, KD dunks the ball.

But back to your point,

I don't understand...

Well, I do understand,
why most teams don't run it

-because they don't have--
-They don't have the personnel.

There are certain teams that,
right now, Mike Brown in Sacramento

is kind of running some split action.

He has those shooters,
he has, obviously, Kevin Huerter,

he has Keegan Murray,
who can shoot the piss out the ball,

and also the speed of De'Aaron Fox.

You know, they plan a lot
of Pinch Posts with Damontas,

who's now triple-double threat,
everything.

You need a pastor like Sabonis, yes.

You have to have a pastor
like Sabonis or Draymond.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like Damontas,
Draymond, Morgan Saul, back in his day,

certain guys, obviously Joker,
he's one-of-a-kind,

but you have to have the personnel.
You have to have the personnel.

The thing with the post-splits for me

is like, you can,
let's say they involved Looney.

-What do your kids call you?
-Dad, why?

When you're coaching,
what do they call you,

-Coach JJ?
-They just call me JJ.

-They just call you JJ?
-[Siri] You need to unlock your iPhone.

We don't want to talk to you right now.

-They just call me JJ.
-They call you JJ, OK,

you got a good chemistry
with your kids.

I tell them this all the time,
you brought up the flubbing that ATO play.

-Yeah.
-I don't care if you miss a shot.

I don't even care if you take a bad shot.
I've never yelled at a kid

or gotten on a kid for taking any shot.

-Right.
-I never have. I may,

after a game, be like,
"Hey, we were up seven with 42 seconds,

you didn't need to shoot
a contested, step back three,

we could've just dribbled
the clock out." Right?

What drives me crazy, though,
is when I draw an ATO

and then we go out and they forget it.

It's like, dude, it's been 10 seconds.

My big thing with them now is like,

don't worry about what I'm drawing up,

-just watch you.
-That's it.

-Pay attention to you.
-That's it.

[both] Just watch you.

Anyways, let's say you involve
Kevon Looney or whatever.

[LeBron] Yup.

And so the big decides to
like, be in a drop back here.

So Steph and Klay, they're up here
doing their dance or whatever.

They're going to get an open three.

-[JJ] Right?
-Yup.

If you switch out with Kevon Looney's guy,

I think what's always
been difficult for me,

as someone who's
guarded that action,

-you were talking about body position.
-Yup.

Bro, sometimes, it doesn't matter.

They're so good, the second
you get on that angle,

the second you turn your head,

the cutting to the basket
is the hardest part to me.

[LeBron] Yup.

Like, I can chase over screen
and get a contest on three.

But like, they keep you off-balance

which is interesting that
you bring up the weak side

-being the key to the whole thing.
-But that's like,

what you're saying is advanced basketball.

You know, you're saying,

if I'm guarding Draymond in the post,

Kevon Looney is at the quad,
they're doing their thing.

At the free-throw line.

They're doing their thing.

You're saying that if he
has a wide-open three,

why not, are you saying
Draymond's man, just go take,

and then Kevon Looney's
just stays in the paint?

-Is that what you're saying?
-No, I'm saying, as this guy.

-Right. Yep.
-As one of them.

So, we can switch this action.

Let's say we're switching this action.

I'm saying if Kevon Looney is so worried

his guy's in this drop
and he's off the body,

we're going to live with
the contested three.

You're going to give that up
if you're worried about taking the layup.

The second you bring Looney up,
they're getting a layup.

-For sure getting a layup.
-They're getting a layup.

It's too hard to guard.
The dance is too hard.

-And they've done it so many times.
-You're right.

You go back to that '22
finals run, where they just...

All right, so, Wiggins is
getting guarded by whoever,

Draymond's got the ball,
and we're gonna involve

two people, we're not
gonna put the big in there.

-Yeah.
-How many cuts did Wiggins get?

He runs into the split action and doesn't
even stop, he slips right through it.

And you know what's interesting?

You think about that run,
you talk about getting

in the playoffs, you can't
beat high basketball IQ teams

-with a low basketball IQ team.
-No. There's no way.

At the time, some of those teams

I didn't think were high
basketball IQ teams.

You're absolutely right.

It's interesting,
Aaron Gordon talked about that,

'cause they beat them in the first round
and that was a big takeaway for me.

Now, they didn't have KCP. Right?

They didn't have the personnel,
Murray was hurt.

But I'm not saying--
I would never say a guy's dumb.

-I'm saying basketball IQ.
-For sure.

They got outsmarted that series.

Jokić was a monster, that stuff,
but they got outsmarted.

And Aaron Gordan has talked about

coming off of that series being like,

"I gotta become a smarter
basketball player."

-Yeah. Yeah.
-To win at the highest level.

To win at the highest level.
And he did it.

There's a lot of other things I would do

in basketball, too, there's a couple
other coverages I would do.

The Pick the Picker B.O.B.

Not "Bombs Over Baghdad,"
but Baseline Out of Bounds.

-America's play.
-America's play.

You have the guard, you have the best
shooter, sitting in the middle to blame.

You have the wing
sitting at the top.

Five is on the strong side,
you have the point guard taking it out.

-Yeah, in the weak side corner.
-In the weak side corner.

No one ever-- it's not many times

that the guy, the wing,
that's coming down the middle

gets that pass, because, in theory,

if you're guarding a ball,
one 1,000, two 1,000,

take away the basket and
then jump out, right?

To take away the shot.

I've always wanted to, no coach has ever

allowed me to do this or given
me the freedom to do this.

The guy that's guarding the ball,

when he says one 1,000,
two 1,000, three 1,000,

why doesn't he just take the guard

that's coming out for the Pick the Picker?

And the guard that's guarding
the Pick the Picker guy

just falls right to the guy
that's taking the ball out.

Yeah.

You go, "one 1,000, two 1,000,"
JJ Redick is flying off, left, right,

where you know he's dangerous,

he can shoot straight up
and down if he wants to,

or he's gonna fade if he wants to as well,

-maybe kick you.
-[both laughing]

That's my natural shooting motion.
It's my natural shooting motion.

I'm guarding the ball, I just take JJ

and the guard who was chasing you

just falls right to the guy
that's taking the ball out.

That's one, we can talk about that...

No, no. So what's interesting
about that, I like that.

I'll tell you why.

'Cause, as someone
who ran that play, right?

So, whether I slipped or set
the screen, I'm coming off.

A lot of teams, after two 1,000,

would send the guy
guarding the takeout guy,

-they'd send him to me.
-Yeah.

The problem is, my guy
is still chasing me.

So what happens? I get the ball, I don't

have a shot,
'cause now I got two guys at me.

It's a quick pass back to the
in-bounder, he gets a layup.

-So don't chase you.
-It's actually--

It's actually a good coverage.

[LeBron] Take you to the screen.

And at the screen, the X5 that's guarding

the Pick the Picker big opens up

and you slide right to
the guy that's guarded.

I didn't know if you wanted
a second glass, I didn't know.

I love talking basketball.

The other play, and it goes
back to the Ghost Screen,

that I think is really difficult to guard,

and you've been a ball
handler in this case,

-is the inverted pick and roll.
-Mm-hmm.

-So, Giannis...
-[laughing]

Fucking Jokić now, Embiid now,

all these guys,
they take the weakest defender.

They take a shooter, whatever it may be,

and they go set an on-ball
screen for the big.

Last night, in the Knicks game,

Draymond had it at the top,
and Steph was in the paint

to go set the high pick, to go set this
inverted pick and roll.

Steph has a number
of options here.

He can slip out, set the pick.

They go back to a dribble hand-off
if you pass to Steph, their two-man dance

-is really hard.
-Mm-hmm.

They decided to top-lock Steph,
so he couldn't get to the screen,

-and Steph--
-Steph screened him.

Steph screened into Draymond's guy,

-Draymond got a wide open dunk.
-Yeah.

That is an insanely
difficult action to guard,

fucking last year in the
Western Conference finals.

Can't remember which game it was

but it was in the fourth quarter,

they ran that three times
with Murray as the screener,

Jokić as the ball handler... Right wing.

-Right in front of the bench.
-Yep, right in front of the bench.

How would you guard that?

There's a couple ways you can...

How do you guard it or how do you stop it
is two different things.

Depending on the ball handler
and his shooting ability,

if he's not a great shooter,

or numbers-wise, he hasn't
shot the ball well,

then the guard that's
guarding the screener,

-Just... we call it a smack.
-Yeah.

You stay body-on-body with the screener

and the big that's guarding the ball,

X4, X5, whatever, goes two-removed.

So he goes not only under the screener,

he goes under his teammate as well

if the big is not a great shooter.

If the big has it going
and he's shooting well,

it could be Joel, it could be Porziņģis,

it could be Joker, where
he might be shooting it well,

then the guard can get out and give

a hard-ass hedge and the
big that's guarding the ball

goes one-removed,
so he goes underneath his player,

in between his player
and the offensive player.

If that doesn't work, then you
have to switch and then fire.

With Joker, that's what makes
their team insane to guard,

because when you switch and you fire,

he can make every single
pass, and fire means double

from the top.

All right, so two things to this.

So, in the first scenario.

I'm asking you, 'cause I wanna
tell you now why it's hard.

And you know this, I'm not telling you.

I'm telling the audience.

The first scenario, which you described,

-which is a non-shooter.
-Yep.

-I.e., Giannis.
-Mm-hm.

I.e., Ben Simmons.

OK, so I'm setting an
invert, we called it 12,

and we would get in sometimes--

we'd get in a 12 Rub Rifle, which is then,

I slip out, Ben would hit me,

I'd swing it, immediately
go to chase action

-with Joel in the corner.
-For sure.

I either get a shot or a pass with Joel.
But in a normal 12 Rub with Ben,

if the defense was all the way back...

[LeBron] He has a runway.

Not only that, I'm just
gonna go dribble hand-off

-and get a wide open shot.
-Yeah.

So, if you want to play
off of Joel with Maxey,

and Maxey can just go get the ball

and shoot a jumper at
any point in time, right?

The other reason I think this is so hard

'cause I took a lot of pride in my screen,

big guys are terrible
at navigating screens.

So in the second scenario,
when you're talking

about going third man removed,

-that sounds great in theory.
-Right.

The problem is...

-Maybe I was just speaking from...
-No.

I have Anthony Davis, so...
-I know.

Who's a hybrid,
but you're absolutely right.

-That's the other part of this...
-You're absolutely right.

And by the way, they let
guards, they just do.

I can hold. He's not used to, like...

-Yeah, for sure.
-...shooting the gap.

No, you're right.

[JJ] You go run a normal
high pick and roll

where I'm gonna screen
the five-man first.

I go down, screen the five-man, I come up,

spring into action
where I can go to the corner.

I'd be on the screen

-for four seconds.
-For sure.

They don't know what to do, and then
all of a sudden they're chucking me

in the throat or pushing off...

And that's what makes
it even more dynamic,

'cause if you have
a guy like Giannis,

and Ben when he was in his groove,

and Joel and now Jokić,
they have the ability to...

Obviously, Giannis is
the best at it, and today,

he has the ability to have
the defense go one way

and then the guard will flip screen it,

so now the guard that's guarding X2...

-Bear is out. The bear is on the screen.
-The bear's on screen.

He'll be on this side, getting ready

to Show or Blitz or Hedge,
and now they flip the screen

and when he crosses over,
there's nobody over there.

And then once Giannis gets to
the launching pad, it's over.

He's gonna dunk you and
the ball in the ring.

[slow hip hop music]

Let's do it.

Grab another glass, man,
JJ don't wanna finish his.

-Oh yeah, yeah.
-I brought these from home, man.

-Zalto's?
-You know it.

LeBron, thank you for your
generosity with the wine.

Oh, I appreciate it.

I'll make sure... home court, home court.

Last time I was ready.
Last time I was ready.

So I'll have some
for you next time.

Listen, man, I can always bring the wine.

I got plenty of it and I
needed somebody to drink with.

[JJ] Hey, guys, thanks for listening,
thanks for watching

Mind the Game podcast.

If you like it, please hit
that subscribe button. Thank you.

[music continues]

[music fades]