All language subtitles for Signs.of.a.Psychopath.S09E10.Masters.of.Manipulation.1080p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP2.0.H.264-RAWR_track3_[eng]

[Jodi]
I remember feelings, and one
of my feelings that I remember

[Jodi]
I remember feelings, and one
of my feelings that I remember

that was most prominent was

severe mortal terror.

[Nameeta] Manipulation is
one of those hallmark markers

when looking at
psychopathic individuals.

[Nameeta] When we look
at how they use manipulation,

one of those markers is

how they interact
with law enforcement.

[Nameeta] For some, it's a
tool to gain power and control.

[woman] For others,
it's actually about a game.

[theme music playing]

The thing
inside of me, it's like...

the appetite,
it's like a wolf that's...

feeling...
the hunger.

[Nameeta] Every human being,
consciously or unconsciously,

does employee manipulation
when interacting with others.

Parents use it with
their children when they're

trying to get
them to eat something

or to do
something they don't want.

Couples use it with each other.
Friends use it with each other.

It's fairly innocuous,

and it actually sometimes serves
to advance a positive goal

for the person
who's actually the "target."

Where manipulation turns dark

and it starts to take us more

into this realm
with psychopathy

is when manipulation
is incredibly one-sided

and not in that
person's best interest.

[Charles] There's a
range of kinds of behaviors

that psychopaths will
engage in with the police.

It may be to shape the image
in the eyes of the police

of them as a sympathetic person,

or as an interesting person,

or as a person
who can help them.

It also may be that they're
using the interview to satisfy

their own curiosity or
to play games with the police.

-[indistinct yelling]
-[chair slams]

[Charles]
So sometimes manipulation
has different faces.

In this hour, we're gonna
look at different strategies

psychopaths play.

[suspenseful music]

[Chriscelyn]
One of the strategies that
individuals with psychopathy

use to manipulate a situation

is pretending to be the helper.

These individuals are trying
to manage their impression.

They want to present as
somebody who's a good citizen,

somebody who
cares about people,

and just wants to help.

So it turns the spotlight
away from them.

We've seen this
type of manipulation

play out in
the Chris Watts case.

[reporter]
How do you think the police
have responded so far?

It's been amazing.
They've been in
constant contact --

Frederick Police Department,
detectives, officers, sergeants.

They have the dogs
coming through to get scents.

I mean, they've been
on top of everything,

missing persons reports,

everything's been,
they've been...

[Nameeta] Chris Watts has
recently admitted to strangling

and killing his
pregnant wife, Shannon,

and suffocating their two young
daughters, Bella and Celeste.

We know that he hid
the bodies in an oil tanker.

But how the investigation
began was

Chris Watts
inserting himself.

He helps the public

by giving multiple
interviews with the media.

He agrees to
a polygraph examination.

And again, he allows
authorities into his home.

That can't be the actions
of anyone but a helper.

And this tactic of
manipulation is oftentimes

how it starts for a psychopath.

It allows them to
control the narrative

on what law enforcement
thinks of them.

Interestingly, we also
see the same technique

of being the helper in
the case of Melissa Miller.

[eerie music playing]

[reporter] Meyer
disappeared in February

after she left work early.

Three days later, she spoke
with her mother on the phone.

That was the last
confirmed call from her.

[eerie music playing]

The roommate is absolutely

someone we would
have liked to have talked to.

Um...that's not an option.

[eerie music continues]

[Chriscelyn] It strikes
as a little odd timing

that Annie's body
was just found,

and now Melissa Miller has
decided to bring it upon herself

to come to the police station
just to be helpful.

And she actually
uses that word

many times
throughout this interview.

You can see here that
Miller is eagerly trying

to stay one step
ahead of the investigators.

So she knows
that there is a body.

She's trying to preempt,

you know, any further
suspicion on her by saying,

"Look, I'll be helpful.
I actually want to be helpful."

[Nameeta] She wants
to manipulate authorities

into believing that
showing them a bunch of pictures

of her time with Annie
and bringing them a camera,

that that somehow
is gonna absolve her

of any guilt for the murder,
or that in their mind,

that doesn't make
her capable of murder.

[eerie music playing]

[eerie music continues]

[sobbing]

[exhales deeply]

[Nameeta] It's interesting
to note that Miller transitions

from one manipulative
tactic of being the helper

to this idea
of playing the victim.

Time and time again,
we see in other cases

with psychopathic individuals,

they're trying to
use the superficial emotions

to come across as
somebody who's frail,

somebody's who's fragile,

somebody who
themselves is a victim.

"I'm the one who's
been the wronged party."

Ultimately, it's just
another form of manipulation.

I remember feelings, and one
of my feelings that I remember

that was most prominent was

severe mortal terror.

[Chriscelyn]
Jodi Arias was found guilty

of brutally murdering her
ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander.

In the early phases
of the trial,

we see her
embrace this role as victim.

You know, she cited
a whole host of explanations

for her behavior, ranging from

her being the victim
of interpersonal violence

to her experiencing
her own childhood traumas.

And while all
of that may have been true,

she attempted throughout that
trial to redirect the spotlight

from her, the perpetrator,
to her being the victim.

[Charles] That's the strategy
in taking on the role

of the manipulator is
to shape the public's opinion

and the opinion of the police

so they view the actual
victim as the bad person

and they view the murderer
as the good person

and the innocent person.

We see this strategy
in the Pedro Bravo case.

[eerie music playing]

[Charles] He takes the strategy
of portraying himself

almost like someone who
suffered, like Job in the Bible.

There's a string
of very bad things

that have
happened to him in life,

and this is almost
like the last straw.

And the strategy, once again,

is to get the spotlight
off of him as a perpetrator.

[eerie music playing]

[Nameeta]
What's interesting about Bravo

at this point
in the interrogation

is that in the process
of being so focused on

manipulating authorities
and controlling the outcome

of what happens
with the investigation

and pulling puppet strings,

he doesn't even
realize that he's let leak out

a very obvious motive
for harming Christian,

jealousy.

It's as old as time
and violence themselves.

[suspenseful music playing]

[Charles]
In Pedro's mind he believes

by commenting
on the word "suicide"

it's like a trigger
word that it should elicit,

uh, thoughts
and emotions in the police

that should elicit a sympathetic
reaction to him to pity him.

He is the aggressor in
the story and he's still trying

to make the story
sound like he's the victim,

but he's not.

[reporter] Pedro Bravo has been
charged with first-degree murder

in the case of missing
University of Florida student

Christian Aguilar, Gainesville
police said Saturday.

The teen bought
a shovel and roll of duct tape

days before
the student vanished.

[reporter] Human remains
discovered by two hunters

in Levy County, Florida,

have been identified
as those of missing

University of Florida
student Christian Aguilar.

[eerie music playing]

[Chriscelyn] In Bravo's case,

we see him manipulating
the investigators

by ultimately
playing the victim role.

And we see that
it also, in some ways,

allows him to
control the interview.

And controlling the interview
is a very important priority.

And we know that individuals
with psychopathy use many

different strategies
to manipulate,

and especially in
a law enforcement interview.

And we know one of those
strategies is by switching

the power dynamics.

So, in essence,
they become the person

in charge of the investigation.

They probe the detectives,
and then they use this

information as manipulation
to help stay in charge.

This is what we call
an armchair detective.

[reporter] In hundreds
of hours of interviews

with police
over seven months,

Gary Ridgway laid out
his grisly confession,

hoping to save himself
from the death penalty.

[Nameeta]
The Green River Killer,
Gary Ridgway, was ultimately

convicted of 48 murders,
but many people suspect that

but many people suspect
that there were far more

that he was never convicted of.

And once he finally came onto
the radar of law enforcement,

he spent months giving
them minimal information,

being barely cooperative,

and ultimately used
those police interviews

to study law enforcement.

[Gary] I agree to, um...

...plead guilty to
the counts that I committed,

not the others.

[Nameeta] Ridgway's
goal in the investigation

and any interactions
he had with law enforcement

were ultimately to stay one
step ahead of the authorities,

one step ahead
of the investigation,

always tracking what they knew

and what they didn't know.

And this manipulative
tactic of playing coy,

playing the armchair detective,

is something that ultimately

law enforcement was
able to use against him.

But we also see
that same tactic

in the case of Eva Heisch.

[suspenseful music playing]

Detectives with
the major case squad tell me

that 68-year-old
Daniel Taylor was murdered.

Police are confident
that he knew the suspects.

Ultimately, the goal
of this meeting

is just for Heisch to figure out
what the police officers know,

what the investigation
has revealed so far,

and for her
to essentially tell them

in a somewhat authoritative way,

"I'm not happy with where
this investigation's going."

[Charles] The beauty of
the manipulative strategy is

that it's not
always based on facts.

It's creating an impression.

So she does meet with them,

and she's got this
attitude of being an equal

and reprimanding them,

"It's affecting my
daughter, I'm upset."

But she's not giving
them any additional information

that would help
them solve the case.

[suspenseful music playing]

If we step away
from the interaction,

what Heisch has done

is gotten the detectives
to focus on her boyfriend,

Jessie Werley,
not her, but Werley.

And in that classic, risky way
that psychopathic individuals

are all about themselves,

she's trying to shine
the spotlight on him

so that it's not
on her any longer.

[Charles] Jessie Werley is
arrested on unrelated charges.

And when Heisch
hears that he is arrested,

she comes down
to the police station

to see what
the police know, right?

Remember, when the psychopath
approaches the police,

it's to find out what
the state of affairs is.

[Charles] She's been
pretty cool and calm

and thinks that
she's been playing them

and that she's
been successful.

And now, the police
are letting her know

she's failed to
achieve her goal,

and we talked
about in psychopathy,

people can experience
rage and anger

when they're frustrated
in achieving their goal.

They are often very irritable
and angry and out of control,

once they realize they can't
be in control of something.

[Chriscelyn]
In the Eva Heisch case,

we see that
she plays the victim.

That's one of her
manipulative strategies.

But she also engages
in pathological lying,

which is another manipulative
tactic that individuals

with psychopathy will embrace.

[Nameeta] What we sometimes
see with psychopaths who use

instrumental lies
often and artfully,

is that if you
pay close attention

to how they
answer questions,

they're elaborate,
they're very strategic.

The goals are to steer
attention away from them,

to steer guilt
away from themselves,

and focus away from themselves.

[reporter] Joran van der Sloot
apparently admitted involvement

in the disappearance
of Natalee Holloway.

In a phone interview
to the Dutch TV show,

van der Sloot says he lied
when he told someone he was

privately involved in
Holloway's disappearance.

Van der Sloot didn't identify
the person, but said, quote,

"That is what he wanted to hear,

so I told him
what he wanted to hear."

[Chriscelyn] Joran van der Sloot
was under investigation

for the missing case
of Natalee Holloway.

He maintained his innocence,
but he was the prime suspect.

He stated that he
dropped her off at a hotel.

And despite
months of investigation,

he maintained his innocence,

but his story
continued to change.

His instrumental lies
served a single purpose,

which was just to keep
the manipulation going,

to confuse the narrative,

to keep police officers
and detectives on their feet,

to continue to distract
the issues at hand.

We see the same manipulative
tactic of controlled lies,

artful lies, in the case
of Nicholas Nigro.

[suspenseful music playing]

When I got here, they were
taking out the two bodies.

[reporter] Prosecutors say
21-year-old Paula Mulder

and her 48-year-old mother

were found shot to death
in separate bedrooms

of this home
on Scarborough Drive

around 3 this morning.

Authorities say
they were both murdered,

but won't comment
on a possible motive.

[eerie music]

[suspenseful music playing]

[Nameeta] Detectives invite
Nigro to theorize with them,

but very rapidly
in the interview,

Nigro doubles
down on this story,

and he's now talking
about it as if it's fact.

He's inserting a level
of elaboration, of detail,

that passes it off as
these are all the data points

that make this the only
plausible explanation.

This strategy of lying as a way
of manipulating authorities is

somewhat frequent and common
for psychopathic individuals,

and yet, Nigro
takes extra steps

to make it believable.

[Chriscelyn] Nigro thought
that he had the upper hand.

He thought that he
was going to convince them,

"Everything's great, and then
this drug dealer came along

"and killed my
girlfriend and her mom

because I cheated
him out of money."

But when they didn't buy it,
he becomes enraged because

he realizes that the impression
he was trying to convey

and the shifting of the
blame that he was hoping to do

just isn't happening.

[Nameeta] When we look at how
Nicholas Nigro chose to handle

his interactions
with law enforcement,

his interactions with
the entire investigation,

we see somebody who
made a lot of attempts

to control the narrative,

to create optics
that were not accurate or true,

we see somebody who
went to great lengths

to control and contrive.

And that's very different
than other psychopaths.

Oftentimes, there's
a secondary, more devious goal

embedded in
their interactions

with the investigation
and detectives,

which is this
cat and mouse dynamic.

[reporter] This is
the man police believe

to be the Son of Sam,

the.44 Caliber Killer, who has
killed six and wounded seven

in a string of attacks
over the last 13 months.

He was arrested outside his
apartment in Yonkers, New York,

at 10:30 last night
and brought to police

headquarters about midnight.

He is David Berkowitz,
a 24-year-old postal worker

who lived alone.

He was smiling as
he was brought in.

[Nameeta] When we look at
that cat and mouse strategy

of manipulating law enforcement
that Berkowitz engaged in,

what we really see is somebody
who's getting sadistic pleasure

out of chasing law enforcement.

Instead of law enforcement
chasing the criminal,

they're chasing the crime.

And ultimately, Berkowitz went
on to taunt law enforcement

for quite some time.

He went on to very
transparently give them

just enough data to
keep their appetites whet,

to keep them curious,

to keep them frustrated.

This cat and mouse strategy of
manipulation that is reserved

for really some
very specific psychopaths

is something that is no longer
just about self-preservation.

It's really about
the thrill of the chase.

It's about the game.
It's about the hunt.

We see the same elaborate
strategy in Aubrey Trail.

[reporter] Sydney Loofe was
meeting up for a date with

someone she met online,
and hasn't been seen since.

She was last heard
from last Wednesday

when she sent
a photo on Snapchat.

It was captioned,
"Ready for my date."

[Nameeta] Trail illustrates
this idea of cat and mouse

and the secondary high
of enjoyment and amusement

really well when
he says, "Let's party."

So he is interacting
with law enforcement

for his own amusement.

He is trying to get
something out of them,

but there's a component
of this that's just

pure entertainment for him.

[Chriscelyn] This interview
seems to be stroking his ego,

but he is actually
trying to impress them.

He is trying to
tease them with some of this

potential data that he has,

this information that he has,

but also impress them
with these rumors they've heard

and the wishes
he might be able to grant.

He obviously has
a very high opinion of himself

and his behaviors.

[ominous music playing]

[Nameeta]
He's very transparent

about the fact
that he's in control.

And when they're frustrated

because they can't
take back that control,

they need him.

That enjoyment, that pleasure,
that power is where

the sadistic interest comes in.

[reporter 1] After more than
two weeks of endless searching

for a missing Lincoln woman,

her family took to
Facebook to announce the news --

the body of 24-year-old
Sydney Loofe has been recovered.

[reporter 2] Police say
her body had been

dismembered and scattered
across multiple rural sites,

a hundred miles outside Lincoln.

Aubrey Trail
and Bailey Boswell are now

prime suspects in her murder.

[Charles]
To the armchair detective,

to the pathological lying,

to the cat and mouse game,

I like to think of them as

cards you might
be holding in your hand

when you're playing
a great game of poker,

where you start
looking at the play that's

on the table and decide,

"I wonder which
card I'm gonna play."

I think of those manipulative
strategies as flexible.

They can interchange,

depending on the psychopath.

[Nameeta] When a psychopath
engages in manipulation,

regardless of which
of these techniques it is,

they're trying to advance
a goal that serves only them.

They're not trying to
advance a goal that helps you.

When we think about why is
this relevant to the rest of us,

when your instinct goes off

and you feel like
you're being manipulated,

don't just
ignore that instinct.

Think twice.

Ask yourself, "Why that
instinct is kicking in?"

Ask yourself why
you're being manipulated.

And if there's any
hesitation that there's

harm that could come to you

you may be looking at more
psychopathic manipulation.