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All right, then.
Here we are...
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in the capital
of the decadent U.S. of A.
3
00:00:46,553 --> 00:00:49,886
Now widely regarded as one of
the most important bands ever,
4
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The Clash disintegrated
over a 12-month period
5
00:00:52,732 --> 00:00:54,989
when the band
were actually at their peak.
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Why was this?
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And exactly what happened next?
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This is the story.
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People say to me,
"What happened to The Clash?
10
00:01:04,721 --> 00:01:06,035
Why did they break up?"
11
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I always say, "Well, they went mad,"
and people think I'm joking.
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I'm not.
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Where you going?
14
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Well, when I was hanging around
The Clash for so long,
15
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I definitely felt like I was going
to "Rock'n'Roll High School. "
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00:02:10,020 --> 00:02:12,616
I wanted to figure out
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what it was
that made them so special,
18
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so I just observed.
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And from what I learned,
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the band has to have a few things,
and they had everything.
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They were very ambitious
and very keen to make it happen.
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First, you have to have
the great drummer.
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00:02:29,035 --> 00:02:32,430
If you don't have a great drummer,
you haven't got a great band.
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Topper was the best drummer
in the whole world, according to me.
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Just electrifying.
26
00:02:40,212 --> 00:02:42,709
Exciting. Absolutely manic.
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00:02:42,814 --> 00:02:46,790
Bass player Paul- when he first started,
he couldn't play bass.
28
00:02:46,894 --> 00:02:49,905
But Paul practiced bass
every single day.
29
00:02:50,009 --> 00:02:52,506
He had a great style
that he influenced The Clash,
30
00:02:52,611 --> 00:02:54,242
you know,
and their way of dressing.
31
00:02:54,345 --> 00:02:58,255
And he was responsible for,
you know,
32
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,536
always making sure
that the visuals were good.
33
00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:03,914
They had attitude.
They had politics.
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00:03:04,013 --> 00:03:05,545
Just everything you wanted
in a rock'n'roll band.
35
00:03:05,651 --> 00:03:07,283
They were tremendous.
36
00:03:07,386 --> 00:03:12,098
Then you have Mick Jones,
who is basically a rock'n'roll fan.
37
00:03:12,194 --> 00:03:14,159
Really, like, you know,
like, the Stones...
38
00:03:14,264 --> 00:03:17,597
His hero is Keith Richards,
like, Mott the Hoople...
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00:03:18,595 --> 00:03:22,026
They were an attractive,
sort of, Beatles-like
40
00:03:22,129 --> 00:03:25,114
gadabout thing, you know?
41
00:03:25,218 --> 00:03:28,270
So there was Topper,
the jazz-bo.
42
00:03:28,371 --> 00:03:30,661
Paul mostly liked black music.
43
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,279
Then Mick's rock'n'roll influence,
44
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with not only the way he looked
but the way he thought.
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At that time, they were, like,
the only band that mattered.
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00:03:38,689 --> 00:03:40,241
And then there's Joe.
47
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Joe was basically rhythm and blues.
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00:03:45,822 --> 00:03:49,253
Blues person.
American roots.
49
00:03:49,357 --> 00:03:51,615
The Clash are
basically number three.
50
00:03:51,713 --> 00:03:54,253
I mean, you know, it's the Beatles,
the Rolling Stones, and The Clash.
51
00:03:54,357 --> 00:03:56,550
So, there's four different people
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00:03:56,649 --> 00:03:59,385
who liked four different
styles of music,
53
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and they were all really intelligent,
54
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and they were all really passionate.
55
00:04:04,037 --> 00:04:06,957
And, so, if you have
all those things,
56
00:04:07,062 --> 00:04:09,472
you have a great band.
57
00:04:09,769 --> 00:04:11,701
He's in love with rock'n'roll
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00:04:11,806 --> 00:04:13,771
He's in love
with gettin' stoned
59
00:04:13,876 --> 00:04:15,591
He's in love with Janie Jones
60
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He don't like his boring job
61
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No
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Let them know
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Let them know
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How you feel.
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00:04:36,454 --> 00:04:40,888
The Clash are kind of unique
amongst all rock bands.
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They kind of had a higher purpose,
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and I can't think of one other band
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that you can say that about.
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00:04:49,650 --> 00:04:52,994
What made The Clash really endure-
it's got to be down to the songwriting.
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00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:56,772
And I put that mostly down to Mick,
or the conflict between Mick and Joe-
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00:04:56,871 --> 00:04:59,104
the artistic conflict
between those two-
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00:04:59,203 --> 00:05:01,752
which have made
so many great, great songs.
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00:05:01,856 --> 00:05:05,146
Rock'n'roll meant an enormous amount
to young people in those days.
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00:05:05,243 --> 00:05:09,426
It was the process
by which attitudes changed,
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00:05:09,524 --> 00:05:13,957
and The Clash were
the next wave of revolutionaries.
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00:05:14,061 --> 00:05:15,553
So, in the political framework,
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I saw them as terrorists
getting away with murder.
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The thing about The Clash,
really, I think,
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is that it operates
on a multiplicity of levels.
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You know, it's like,
on one hand, it's performance art,
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it's street theater.
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It's the poetry of satire, really,
you know?
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00:05:31,570 --> 00:05:34,565
I mean, this whole thing about, kind of,
The Clash being a political group-
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00:05:34,669 --> 00:05:36,422
I never saw them
as a political group.
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00:05:36,523 --> 00:05:39,268
I thought they were a satirical group.
They were pointing fingers
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at the things that needed
to have fingers pointed at.
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I think we did something good,
and that just turned out,
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probably a mixture of luck
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and fortunate timing.
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Timing was very important.
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00:06:02,466 --> 00:06:06,290
But nothing you could've contrived
in any way.
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It just turned out that way.
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I am punk.
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Bernie would always describe
The Clash early on
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as a very creative situation.
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00:06:21,705 --> 00:06:24,899
And I think he genuinely
did believe in that.
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00:06:24,999 --> 00:06:27,844
I think he believed in the group
very, very much.
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Bernie was, I called it,
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an intellectual of fashion
and the zeitgeist.
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When I went to his house in Camden,
he had an empty room,
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and in the room were
these piles of magazines-
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Marxist Today, mainly-
and they were piled up high.
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00:06:46,967 --> 00:06:50,227
About two foot high.
He used those instead of chairs.
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00:06:51,220 --> 00:06:54,381
Compared to Malcolm McLaren,
Bernie was the real deal.
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00:06:54,482 --> 00:06:57,447
He was the one
who was kind of fueling McLaren,
106
00:06:57,551 --> 00:07:00,419
who was a bit of a dilettante
and would flit onto the next thing.
107
00:07:00,525 --> 00:07:01,953
But a lot of that was Bernie.
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00:07:02,060 --> 00:07:04,230
Bernie came up with
the name "the Sex Pistols. "
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For a few months,
he had to sort of sit there
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00:07:06,473 --> 00:07:08,413
while McLaren took the Pistols
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00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,006
to become the most notorious band
in the country.
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Bernie Rhodes, to me, is like
"The Emperor's New Clothes. "
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He's just someone who's
pumped himself up into something
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that he wasn't really as a person,
as a man, as a manager.
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00:07:19,744 --> 00:07:21,303
He was very much always,
sort of,
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00:07:21,407 --> 00:07:24,056
on the coattails of Malcolm McLaren,
trying to copy his way,
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00:07:24,156 --> 00:07:26,543
but without the finesse,
without the charm,
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00:07:26,651 --> 00:07:28,591
and without the artistic vision.
119
00:07:28,697 --> 00:07:33,996
But he wanted a band that would
almost be his mouthpiece.
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00:07:44,845 --> 00:07:48,454
Joe and Paul
especially loved Bernie.
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00:07:48,555 --> 00:07:50,658
And he did bring so much
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00:07:50,761 --> 00:07:53,345
great stuff to the table
that I can't make fun of it.
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00:07:53,447 --> 00:07:56,478
He wound them up in the right way.
He told them not to be pussies.
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He said, you know,
"Don't talk about love,
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00:07:58,701 --> 00:08:01,166
and don't talk about cars,
talk about politics. "
126
00:08:01,271 --> 00:08:03,834
Bernard Rhodes is, like, really-
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00:08:03,938 --> 00:08:06,281
You gotta consider him
as a member of The Clash,
128
00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:09,621
because he did put, obviously,
a lot of ideas into the band.
129
00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,828
So it's a very unusual situation
where you get, like, a manager
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00:08:13,929 --> 00:08:15,944
who's not, like,
aloof from the band.
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00:08:16,049 --> 00:08:20,770
He's actually part of the creative process
of it, I suppose.
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00:08:21,928 --> 00:08:23,527
I would say
he's not a good manager.
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00:08:23,631 --> 00:08:26,993
He didn't understand how to keep
things together, how to solve problems.
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00:08:27,100 --> 00:08:29,630
He only understood this
sort of conflict management.
135
00:08:29,734 --> 00:08:31,334
But having said that,
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00:08:31,438 --> 00:08:34,001
you wouldn't have The Clash
if Bernie hadn't done that.
137
00:08:34,104 --> 00:08:36,667
Well, he's a very intelligent guy.
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He's always thinking outside the box,
139
00:08:38,795 --> 00:08:40,974
and always got something to say
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00:08:41,075 --> 00:08:44,701
in terms of what you should do,
141
00:08:44,801 --> 00:08:47,529
which is very good
if you need to know
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00:08:47,629 --> 00:08:49,710
what you need to do.
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00:08:49,814 --> 00:08:52,059
You know, you should
always remain open to things,
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00:08:52,158 --> 00:08:55,039
and Bernie was always
very challenging.
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00:08:55,146 --> 00:08:57,676
And that's, like, kind of gets
your mind going, you know?
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So it's like a big part of things.
147
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But it didn't-
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The only trouble is,
that he wasn't sharing with us
149
00:09:05,876 --> 00:09:08,122
as much as
he should've done, probably.
150
00:09:08,222 --> 00:09:12,099
He didn't like telling you
about what he was organizing.
151
00:09:12,205 --> 00:09:17,594
He liked to sort of surprise you
with things, you know?
152
00:09:17,699 --> 00:09:22,387
He was an easy figure of fun
for the band to, you know,
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00:09:22,485 --> 00:09:25,179
plant a piece of cheese on his head
while you're talking to him
154
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,741
so that you're collapsing laughing
155
00:09:26,848 --> 00:09:28,986
when he's telling you
about the Paris riots.
156
00:09:29,088 --> 00:09:33,244
But, on the other hand,
he had some brilliant ideas.
157
00:09:35,551 --> 00:09:37,722
Bernie Rhodes would
arrive at the door.
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00:09:37,822 --> 00:09:40,637
I'd open the door,
he'd push past me, up the stairs,
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00:09:40,733 --> 00:09:44,049
and not speak a word to me,
not even look me in the eye.
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00:09:44,158 --> 00:09:47,735
He's a rude, socially inept person.
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Asshole.
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Sorry.
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00:09:53,244 --> 00:09:55,251
He's an asshole.
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00:09:55,355 --> 00:09:58,868
Bernie's managerial technique
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as such, if it existed,
166
00:10:01,914 --> 00:10:05,329
was something
which was obscured.
167
00:10:06,457 --> 00:10:09,174
But I know that Joe
leaned heavily
168
00:10:09,273 --> 00:10:11,639
on his opinion.
169
00:10:11,737 --> 00:10:14,257
You know, like,
what do we do next?
170
00:10:14,361 --> 00:10:17,775
What are we doing?
What does it all mean?
171
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,367
Bernie could always
reduce it to a simple
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00:10:20,472 --> 00:10:24,181
sort of political thing.
173
00:10:24,278 --> 00:10:26,961
I think Bernie is one of
the unsung heroes
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00:10:27,062 --> 00:10:28,785
of music management.
175
00:10:28,886 --> 00:10:31,220
I just think it was great
that he brought this
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kind of mad anarchic
177
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political energy to the band,
178
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and that he ran the band like it was
179
00:10:39,796 --> 00:10:42,349
some kind of military operation
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00:10:42,452 --> 00:10:45,354
where people were expendable.
181
00:10:52,082 --> 00:10:54,220
In the autumn of 1978,
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00:10:54,322 --> 00:10:57,617
the increasing conflict between
Bernard Rhodes and the band,
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00:10:57,714 --> 00:10:59,404
and in particular Mick,
184
00:10:59,505 --> 00:11:02,570
led to the sacking of the manager.
185
00:11:02,672 --> 00:11:05,671
To see his face so beaten in fear
186
00:11:05,776 --> 00:11:10,569
Just around the corner
in the English Civil War
187
00:11:10,676 --> 00:11:13,875
Still at the stage
of clubs and fists
188
00:11:13,975 --> 00:11:16,759
Hurrah, hurrah
189
00:11:16,857 --> 00:11:19,478
Well-known face
got beaten to bits
190
00:11:19,579 --> 00:11:20,791
Hurrah
191
00:11:22,301 --> 00:11:25,173
Your face was blue
in the light of the screen
192
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,999
Watched the speech,
animal scream
193
00:11:28,099 --> 00:11:32,412
New party army
marching right over our heads
194
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,023
After two years
with Blackhill Management,
195
00:11:37,130 --> 00:11:39,270
run by Peter Jenner
and Andrew King,
196
00:11:39,372 --> 00:11:41,512
who had previously
managed Pink Floyd,
197
00:11:41,613 --> 00:11:45,194
Bernie was reinstated
as the manager.
198
00:11:45,296 --> 00:11:48,113
It is worth noting that
during the absence of Bernie,
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00:11:48,211 --> 00:11:52,011
The Clash produced some of their
most enduring and inspirational work:
200
00:11:52,119 --> 00:11:54,674
London Calling and Sandinista!
201
00:11:54,776 --> 00:11:58,391
Before Bernie came back,
they had Blackhill Management,
202
00:11:58,492 --> 00:12:01,811
and they were all
really great people, as well.
203
00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:04,823
It was a whole organization.
But I think they just-
204
00:12:04,929 --> 00:12:07,997
The Clash felt they were just
too nice and safe for them.
205
00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:09,989
Bernie had been sacked.
206
00:12:10,085 --> 00:12:12,159
Then they'd come back,
207
00:12:12,263 --> 00:12:15,811
probably cap in hand, you know?
208
00:12:15,914 --> 00:12:17,988
"Please come back and save us. "
209
00:12:18,092 --> 00:12:20,679
He wasn't gonna blow it this time.
He was going to-
210
00:12:20,782 --> 00:12:23,337
He was going to assert himself.
211
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,015
Bernie Rhodes came along
and got them away from there
212
00:12:28,116 --> 00:12:29,973
and took over.
213
00:12:36,091 --> 00:12:38,711
I understand it was Joe
214
00:12:38,813 --> 00:12:43,006
who insisted that Bernard
come back and sort it out,
215
00:12:43,104 --> 00:12:47,096
to give them fresh impetus,
to give them new ideas.
216
00:12:47,198 --> 00:12:50,677
Well, 'cause we were reeling
217
00:12:50,781 --> 00:12:53,169
out of control completely, yeah.
218
00:12:53,276 --> 00:12:55,250
And he was like-
He sensed that.
219
00:12:55,355 --> 00:12:57,362
It's not that we wanted
to be in control,
220
00:12:57,466 --> 00:13:02,003
but we were just, like,
drifting in space, I reckon.
221
00:13:02,104 --> 00:13:04,972
They weren't comfortable with things
running around smoothly.
222
00:13:05,079 --> 00:13:06,834
And so, whenever
Bernie was around,
223
00:13:06,934 --> 00:13:09,747
then things became chaos
and madness,
224
00:13:09,845 --> 00:13:11,371
and that's what they liked.
225
00:13:11,477 --> 00:13:13,167
Joe and Paul, that is.
226
00:13:13,267 --> 00:13:17,543
I think Mick was a bit more happy
being comfortable.
227
00:13:18,737 --> 00:13:22,729
He wanted to sack everybody,
all our crew and stuff.
228
00:13:22,831 --> 00:13:24,805
But everybody seemed
to be going along with it,
229
00:13:24,911 --> 00:13:26,666
and I didn't want
to go along with it.
230
00:13:26,766 --> 00:13:29,001
All the guys that had
been working with us for so long,
231
00:13:29,101 --> 00:13:31,304
and they wanted to sack them.
232
00:13:31,404 --> 00:13:34,185
Mick hated the fact
Bernie was back.
233
00:13:34,282 --> 00:13:36,867
Because he always thought
he was out to scam him.
234
00:13:38,089 --> 00:13:39,779
I'm watching you.
235
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,227
He always knew that it was
something to do with his money,
236
00:13:43,335 --> 00:13:46,650
or something like that-
that he was out to scam him.
237
00:13:46,757 --> 00:13:49,374
But he had him sussed
from the beginning.
238
00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:54,230
But to keep Joe sweet,
he went along with it.
239
00:13:54,338 --> 00:13:56,987
Joe was the one who wanted the edge
put back in the band,
240
00:13:57,088 --> 00:13:59,454
and he felt that with Bernie
you had that edge,
241
00:13:59,552 --> 00:14:03,292
whereas the rest of the band
didn't really have much respect-
242
00:14:03,390 --> 00:14:07,131
I mean, Paul did a big mural
that was on the wall of rehearsals
243
00:14:07,228 --> 00:14:11,121
of a naked Bernie
getting shat on by pigeons.
244
00:14:24,085 --> 00:14:28,100
I lived with Kosmo Vinyl,
245
00:14:28,201 --> 00:14:32,564
who became The Clash publicist.
246
00:14:32,670 --> 00:14:36,935
He was obsessed by The Clash
before he worked for them.
247
00:14:37,041 --> 00:14:38,630
What do you do for The Clash?
248
00:14:38,732 --> 00:14:41,539
Whatever needs doing.
249
00:14:41,637 --> 00:14:43,802
Anything.
Wash a pair of socks,
250
00:14:43,903 --> 00:14:46,002
go out and see
the record company...
251
00:14:46,104 --> 00:14:49,608
Kosmo was the press man.
252
00:14:49,710 --> 00:14:53,442
He used to work with Ian Dury before,
as a press man.
253
00:14:53,539 --> 00:14:56,433
And Kosmo couldn't
get anything done.
254
00:14:56,540 --> 00:14:59,727
He influenced
the way the band looked,
255
00:14:59,827 --> 00:15:01,926
with that kind of, you know-
256
00:15:02,028 --> 00:15:04,161
"This is the stuff
you stick on your hair. "
257
00:15:04,263 --> 00:15:06,046
He steamed in, basically.
258
00:15:08,762 --> 00:15:11,210
Someone's really smart
259
00:15:14,283 --> 00:15:16,829
Complete control,
that's a laugh
260
00:15:30,015 --> 00:15:33,268
During 1981,
at Bernie's instigation,
261
00:15:33,366 --> 00:15:36,391
and due to the financial
black hole the band were in,
262
00:15:36,493 --> 00:15:38,659
The Clash had played
three sell-out residencies
263
00:15:38,759 --> 00:15:40,925
in London, Paris, and New York.
264
00:15:43,227 --> 00:15:47,557
We just went to New York
to play seven dates in a club there.
265
00:15:47,662 --> 00:15:50,306
But when we got there,
the whole thing blew up,
266
00:15:50,407 --> 00:15:53,530
and we made it onto, like,
the news at 10:00 and TV,
267
00:15:53,630 --> 00:15:56,437
and that was something
that we hadn't done before.
268
00:15:56,534 --> 00:15:58,471
The Clash were to do
eight shows at Bond's,
269
00:15:58,577 --> 00:16:01,797
but when the disco packed in
more than 3,600 fans-
270
00:16:01,896 --> 00:16:04,409
the club only legally holds 1,800-
271
00:16:04,512 --> 00:16:06,264
all the trouble began.
272
00:16:06,363 --> 00:16:10,542
So it turned out that because
the police shut the club down-
273
00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:13,283
And so we ended up
playing 17 shows there.
274
00:16:23,531 --> 00:16:25,631
Well, that was really exciting.
275
00:16:25,734 --> 00:16:27,294
Especially for me, too,
276
00:16:27,397 --> 00:16:30,658
because it was
three weeks at Bond's.
277
00:16:30,756 --> 00:16:35,805
It was like Beatlemania
in terms of fans screaming.
278
00:16:35,906 --> 00:16:37,596
None of that shit
had ever happened.
279
00:16:37,698 --> 00:16:40,893
Police everywhere.
280
00:16:40,993 --> 00:16:43,413
And each show
was sold out to capacity,
281
00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:45,307
and I was the deejay.
282
00:16:45,407 --> 00:16:48,918
The Bond's residency
was possibly one of-
283
00:16:49,022 --> 00:16:51,923
That was one of the greatest things
that The Clash did.
284
00:16:52,028 --> 00:16:55,769
And it was so important
in breaking them,
285
00:16:55,867 --> 00:16:58,200
for The Clash to bring New York
to a standstill
286
00:16:58,298 --> 00:16:59,672
and get on the evening news.
287
00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:01,744
And somehow,
288
00:17:01,849 --> 00:17:05,841
Bernie managed to place The Clash,
from West London,
289
00:17:05,944 --> 00:17:07,950
smack in the middle of Manhattan,
290
00:17:08,055 --> 00:17:09,843
and make them the center point
291
00:17:09,942 --> 00:17:14,163
of the whole New York explosion
going on at that time.
292
00:17:27,311 --> 00:17:30,158
When they were going to New York
and Mick got into hip-hop,
293
00:17:30,255 --> 00:17:33,123
I think that's when they started
really going in different directions.
294
00:17:33,230 --> 00:17:36,228
Joe kicked back to rockabilly.
295
00:17:36,333 --> 00:17:38,983
Joe wants to kind of,
you know, do, sort of,
296
00:17:39,083 --> 00:17:42,017
really, probably just
straight rock'n'roll songs.
297
00:17:42,122 --> 00:17:44,009
And Mick is much more
interested in hip-hop,
298
00:17:44,106 --> 00:17:46,244
you know, in kind of
the emerging rap culture.
299
00:17:46,346 --> 00:17:48,232
New musics, generally.
300
00:17:48,328 --> 00:17:51,710
I used to get on their nerves
because of it a bit,
301
00:17:51,815 --> 00:17:55,010
because I was so, you know,
enthusiastic about it.
302
00:18:02,404 --> 00:18:04,225
One of the things
about Combat Rock
303
00:18:04,323 --> 00:18:06,744
is that it's the first album
that's been made
304
00:18:06,850 --> 00:18:09,151
since Bernie Rhodes has returned.
305
00:18:09,249 --> 00:18:12,286
So he wants a commercial record,
306
00:18:12,389 --> 00:18:14,661
and he's very certain of this.
307
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,993
Mick is already being reined in
by his instructions,
308
00:18:18,092 --> 00:18:22,123
and he's telling Mick, you know,
to write commercial songs.
309
00:18:23,668 --> 00:18:26,901
But Mick does insist that the record
is made in New York.
310
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,413
Bernie- I remember him coming in
and making a criticism
311
00:18:31,518 --> 00:18:35,516
that there was
too many things going on-
312
00:18:35,619 --> 00:18:39,880
that there wasn't one direction.
313
00:18:39,977 --> 00:18:43,910
'Cause he wanted to really get back
to a bit like the first album.
314
00:18:44,014 --> 00:18:46,865
Mick started experimenting again.
315
00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:57,172
And then they go off
on the tour of Japan and Australia,
316
00:18:57,279 --> 00:18:58,688
Hong Kong, Thailand.
317
00:18:58,785 --> 00:19:01,406
And in Australia,
they have this crazy idea
318
00:19:01,508 --> 00:19:03,518
they're gonna mix it
after they've done the shows.
319
00:19:03,623 --> 00:19:06,047
When all their ears are shot.
A complete waste of time.
320
00:19:06,154 --> 00:19:08,743
We ended up with a lot of music,
a lot of tapes,
321
00:19:08,846 --> 00:19:11,183
and I wanted to boil it down
onto one album
322
00:19:11,281 --> 00:19:13,258
and stop mucking around,
you know,
323
00:19:13,460 --> 00:19:15,350
and refine it
down to the essence.
324
00:19:15,447 --> 00:19:16,877
And Mick was into,
325
00:19:16,984 --> 00:19:19,256
"Let's have a 12-inch
or two 12-inches with the album. "
326
00:19:19,355 --> 00:19:21,747
And I wouldn't have minded
if the tracks had merited it,
327
00:19:21,854 --> 00:19:23,547
but I felt like
they were all too long.
328
00:19:23,649 --> 00:19:27,364
It was becoming too self-indulgent,
and I felt like the opposite.
329
00:19:27,461 --> 00:19:29,373
Y eah, that was the time
when we found out we couldn't-
330
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,162
I didn't know how
to mix records anymore.
331
00:19:33,262 --> 00:19:35,883
We had to call Glyn Johns in
at the last minute to mix the album,
332
00:19:35,985 --> 00:19:38,027
because we had made an attempt
to mix it ourselves
333
00:19:38,131 --> 00:19:40,108
that we hadn't been able to do.
334
00:19:40,214 --> 00:19:43,152
And Glyn Johns mixed it
in a week.
335
00:19:43,258 --> 00:19:45,970
Bernie gets Glyn Johns
to remix the album, you know.
336
00:19:46,069 --> 00:19:48,617
Joe is down there very early.
337
00:19:48,721 --> 00:19:51,749
Mick, as is his tradition,
arrives rather late,
338
00:19:51,851 --> 00:19:53,823
by which time-
half of his stuff's the first day-
339
00:19:53,927 --> 00:19:56,344
some of his stuff's
been taken off already.
340
00:19:56,451 --> 00:19:58,813
Mick Jones of The Clash.
341
00:20:01,498 --> 00:20:03,251
He saved the album, really.
342
00:20:03,351 --> 00:20:04,810
And Mick-
343
00:20:04,917 --> 00:20:08,326
his view was that I ruined
his music and stuff like this.
344
00:20:08,430 --> 00:20:10,216
He didn't like it.
But actually now
345
00:20:10,315 --> 00:20:13,408
he does think that it was
the right way to mix it.
346
00:20:14,627 --> 00:20:17,557
Combat Rock.
On Epic Records and cassettes.
347
00:20:19,259 --> 00:20:23,049
I think it's a good job that it
came out as one- Combat Rock.
348
00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:25,008
It was good after all that.
You know what I mean?
349
00:20:25,105 --> 00:20:26,662
It was a bit painful at the time,
350
00:20:26,766 --> 00:20:30,404
but it's a much better record
than the other one,
351
00:20:30,503 --> 00:20:32,322
I think.
352
00:20:32,420 --> 00:20:37,332
That's another one of
those cymbal level things.
353
00:20:43,153 --> 00:20:46,791
That was something that
went a bit wrong for Bernie.
354
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,879
Originally, they were
gonna start touring,
355
00:20:50,979 --> 00:20:55,957
and it's commonly assumed
that tickets weren't going very well
356
00:20:56,059 --> 00:20:59,402
and that they'd had to pull
some kind of publicity stunt
357
00:20:59,508 --> 00:21:01,959
to sell more tickets-
358
00:21:03,470 --> 00:21:06,312
i. e. make Joe disappear.
359
00:21:06,408 --> 00:21:08,194
Yeah, I just dropped out
of a UK tour,
360
00:21:08,293 --> 00:21:11,583
and I went to Paris instead
and got drunk.
361
00:21:11,679 --> 00:21:15,731
And he did end up in Paris,
doing the marathon.
362
00:21:15,833 --> 00:21:19,601
He went a lot longer
than everyone thought.
363
00:21:19,697 --> 00:21:21,450
And Bernie, particularly,
364
00:21:21,550 --> 00:21:23,521
who sort of encouraged
this little disappearing act
365
00:21:23,626 --> 00:21:26,556
to shake up the band
and get some publicity-
366
00:21:26,661 --> 00:21:28,861
I think he was rather surprised.
367
00:21:35,702 --> 00:21:38,512
They had all agreed
that they were drinkers and smokers,
368
00:21:38,608 --> 00:21:42,214
and so that was gonna be
what The Clash were.
369
00:21:42,314 --> 00:21:44,416
They just smoked dope
and drank,
370
00:21:44,518 --> 00:21:46,489
and everybody
liked to drink a lot.
371
00:21:46,595 --> 00:21:48,860
They loved to smoke, you know, pot.
California pot.
372
00:21:48,958 --> 00:21:50,842
They go, "Where can we get some?"
373
00:21:50,939 --> 00:21:54,413
So, I call my friend Glenn up, and I go-
He's a big pot dealer in San Francisco.
374
00:21:54,517 --> 00:21:56,782
I go, "Glenn, you gotta get down here.
375
00:21:56,881 --> 00:21:59,331
Come down to Monterey.
We're with these guys.
376
00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:02,049
We're gonna have a great time,
you know? Bring some stuff. "
377
00:22:02,151 --> 00:22:05,560
He goes, "How much you want me
to bring?" I said, "Bring it all!"
378
00:22:05,665 --> 00:22:10,065
So in a couple hours, he's down there
with, like, a duffel bag full of stuff.
379
00:22:14,066 --> 00:22:16,331
He couldn't work without
380
00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:19,175
getting up in the morning
and having his first spliff.
381
00:22:19,273 --> 00:22:22,584
So, anytime you hear him say
he's not going until spliff comes,
382
00:22:22,691 --> 00:22:23,998
that is quite true.
383
00:22:24,097 --> 00:22:26,939
You know, I think The Clash-
It wasn't a church picnic.
384
00:22:31,443 --> 00:22:34,787
In Japan,
you just get loads of alcohol.
385
00:22:35,788 --> 00:22:40,726
And somehow they would get
crushed aspirins and things like that.
386
00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:43,074
Oh, yeah. Different-
387
00:22:43,174 --> 00:22:47,444
Crushed aspirins and everything,
just to keep them going.
388
00:22:48,568 --> 00:22:50,680
Like, I remember
in the recording studio,
389
00:22:50,784 --> 00:22:53,126
you know, things like,
"Hey, where's Topper?"
390
00:22:53,223 --> 00:22:57,876
And then you would know that
he was in the bathroom doing drugs.
391
00:22:57,976 --> 00:22:59,870
And everybody would roll their eyes.
392
00:22:59,966 --> 00:23:03,656
He'd borrow any note off you
for approximately three minutes
393
00:23:03,756 --> 00:23:06,800
and then hand it back,
rolled up, yeah.
394
00:23:06,903 --> 00:23:08,796
Yeah, I'll manage, you know.
395
00:23:08,893 --> 00:23:10,589
Give me some more of that.
396
00:23:10,691 --> 00:23:14,983
Topper was marginalized
from the very beginning, really.
397
00:23:15,090 --> 00:23:17,783
He was the drummer from Dover.
398
00:23:17,884 --> 00:23:20,445
You know,
he wasn't a London boy.
399
00:23:20,548 --> 00:23:22,923
All the press focus
400
00:23:23,021 --> 00:23:25,780
was on the other three,
401
00:23:25,879 --> 00:23:29,535
never on Topper,
and he was a big part of the band.
402
00:23:29,635 --> 00:23:32,263
His fucking drumming
held it together, you know?
403
00:23:32,365 --> 00:23:35,922
So Topper started to spend more time
404
00:23:36,025 --> 00:23:39,485
on the road with the crew,
405
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:42,217
and some of the crew
were heavy drug takers.
406
00:23:42,319 --> 00:23:47,705
And that's where his drug habit
really mushroomed.
407
00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:50,722
In terms of new drummers
408
00:23:50,828 --> 00:23:53,619
that had come along in that decade,
409
00:23:53,717 --> 00:23:55,797
Topper was the best.
410
00:23:57,924 --> 00:24:02,281
Topper was the "Engine Room,"
as Joe liked to call him.
411
00:24:03,736 --> 00:24:07,841
Topper was a genius
at what he done, and I-
412
00:24:07,942 --> 00:24:12,179
You know,
I completely applaud his energy.
413
00:24:12,277 --> 00:24:14,806
He was a great performer.
414
00:24:14,910 --> 00:24:19,267
Every show, he would come off that stage
completely exhausted.
415
00:24:19,373 --> 00:24:21,617
They lost patience with him.
416
00:24:21,717 --> 00:24:25,341
I wish they hadn't,
'cause they knew that Topper
417
00:24:25,441 --> 00:24:28,320
was the best drummer
in the whole world, too,
418
00:24:28,428 --> 00:24:33,114
but they just couldn't tolerate
the junkiness stuff.
419
00:24:33,212 --> 00:24:35,073
So that's what happened.
420
00:24:36,198 --> 00:24:41,300
Topper was the only one
who was heavily into that sort of thing,
421
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,444
and it took me
a long time to find out.
422
00:24:44,547 --> 00:24:49,452
I found out properly in New Zealand
when he started shaking,
423
00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:51,122
and I didn't know
what was wrong with him.
424
00:24:51,225 --> 00:24:53,020
And everybody realized.
425
00:24:54,725 --> 00:24:58,218
Then, really,
they should have said,
426
00:24:58,322 --> 00:24:59,733
"Topper is ill.
427
00:24:59,831 --> 00:25:03,706
Let's get him some treatment,
some help,
428
00:25:03,813 --> 00:25:08,531
and we'll step back for six months
or however long it takes. "
429
00:25:09,656 --> 00:25:11,802
But, instead, he was sacked.
430
00:25:12,835 --> 00:25:14,696
That's not very good, is it?
431
00:25:14,794 --> 00:25:18,450
I thought we could work
something out,
432
00:25:18,550 --> 00:25:21,692
but the times were like,
433
00:25:21,793 --> 00:25:24,168
you needed it,
you need it now.
434
00:25:24,266 --> 00:25:27,473
We needed it now,
and we didn't have it then,
435
00:25:27,573 --> 00:25:29,467
and so that's what happened.
436
00:25:29,564 --> 00:25:33,319
But I didn't want that to happen.
437
00:25:34,316 --> 00:25:37,261
Not at all.
But that did happen,
438
00:25:37,367 --> 00:25:42,172
and probably
that was inevitable, as well.
439
00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:45,191
You can't run a thing if you're-
440
00:25:45,297 --> 00:25:47,672
So, yeah,
you're a drug band, sure,
441
00:25:47,770 --> 00:25:52,292
but it just gets too much
after a while.
442
00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:58,329
Joe and Paul and Mick were,
you know, really sad about it,
443
00:25:58,430 --> 00:26:01,309
but they felt they had no choice.
444
00:26:01,416 --> 00:26:04,108
And I think Topper
was really shocked and hurt
445
00:26:04,210 --> 00:26:06,421
and was hoping that,
"Hey, give me another chance,"
446
00:26:06,522 --> 00:26:09,664
but they didn't feel like
giving him another chance.
447
00:26:09,765 --> 00:26:11,862
If you can't do it,
you can't do it.
448
00:26:11,964 --> 00:26:14,322
You get to a point
where you can't do it anymore.
449
00:26:14,419 --> 00:26:18,809
And so, you're too messed up.
450
00:26:21,017 --> 00:26:23,876
I thought he was in fantastic shape
as a musician.
451
00:26:23,982 --> 00:26:28,949
It was more the fear of
a dependent drug getting into the band
452
00:26:29,051 --> 00:26:32,138
than what it was
actually doing to Topper.
453
00:26:32,238 --> 00:26:35,802
It was more of a mental thing
454
00:26:35,904 --> 00:26:38,479
that particularly Joe had,
455
00:26:38,582 --> 00:26:42,245
that if heroin came in,
it would be destructive.
456
00:26:58,250 --> 00:27:03,413
Would you please say hello
to Mr. Terry Chimes on drums.
457
00:27:08,611 --> 00:27:11,914
Terry's great. It was, like,
a good thing Terry came back.
458
00:27:12,021 --> 00:27:14,314
You know what I mean?
'Cause it was still like-
459
00:27:14,412 --> 00:27:18,194
He was with us originally,
and so he's still part of the same thing.
460
00:27:18,301 --> 00:27:21,323
There's, like, continuity to that
that was really good.
461
00:27:21,425 --> 00:27:24,348
There was this sort of poetry
about the flow of The Clash
462
00:27:24,453 --> 00:27:26,714
and, you know,
the people around them.
463
00:27:26,812 --> 00:27:30,508
There was a synchronicity
about the actions of The Clash
464
00:27:30,606 --> 00:27:35,128
which suggested that they were a pure,
intuitive art movement, really.
465
00:27:39,244 --> 00:27:42,429
I liked playing with Terry, as well.
Yeah, I liked playing with-
466
00:27:42,528 --> 00:27:44,788
Both of them are
fantastic drummers, you know.
467
00:27:44,887 --> 00:27:46,951
So I liked it. I did enjoy it.
468
00:27:47,055 --> 00:27:49,022
I still enjoyed playing
the numbers and stuff.
469
00:27:49,127 --> 00:27:50,615
There was still-
470
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,872
Most of the time,
it was still pretty good
471
00:27:53,971 --> 00:27:55,373
when we were on the stage.
472
00:27:55,470 --> 00:27:56,709
I'm runnin'
473
00:27:56,809 --> 00:27:58,178
Police on my back
474
00:27:58,275 --> 00:27:59,796
I've been hidin'
475
00:27:59,901 --> 00:28:01,270
Police on my back
476
00:28:01,367 --> 00:28:02,921
There was a shooting
477
00:28:03,025 --> 00:28:04,427
Police on my back
478
00:28:04,523 --> 00:28:07,131
And the victim,
well, he won't come back
479
00:28:07,233 --> 00:28:09,972
You could tell
the music changed.
480
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:13,635
The beat wasn't there.
481
00:28:13,736 --> 00:28:15,485
You could tell.
482
00:28:15,585 --> 00:28:18,475
And Topper had a certain way
of bashing the drums.
483
00:28:18,581 --> 00:28:20,678
You knew it was somebody else.
484
00:28:20,781 --> 00:28:23,356
There was
no other drummer like him.
485
00:28:23,459 --> 00:28:27,089
You could tell
from the crowd's reaction and all.
486
00:28:27,187 --> 00:28:29,219
This is how
The Clash worked, right?
487
00:28:29,324 --> 00:28:33,910
They had a week
to find a new drummer.
488
00:28:34,010 --> 00:28:35,890
And as far as I understand it,
489
00:28:35,986 --> 00:28:39,290
they didn't even have any rehearsals-
full band rehearsals-
490
00:28:39,397 --> 00:28:41,332
before they started the American tour,
491
00:28:41,437 --> 00:28:43,882
because Paul had already left
to go to America.
492
00:28:43,988 --> 00:28:46,118
We had to rehearse without Paul,
493
00:28:46,218 --> 00:28:48,066
with Mick playing the bass,
and then Joe.
494
00:28:48,163 --> 00:28:49,403
So it was all very chaotic.
495
00:28:49,502 --> 00:28:51,762
But I kind of liked
that chaos in my life.
496
00:28:51,861 --> 00:28:55,012
I enjoy chaos. You know,
it's kind of uplifting and exciting.
497
00:28:55,113 --> 00:28:58,776
Terry was a professional enough,
498
00:28:58,874 --> 00:29:01,153
you know, player
to just slot in with that.
499
00:29:01,252 --> 00:29:02,918
And, you know,
they sounded good.
500
00:29:03,020 --> 00:29:06,966
I mean, you know,
he was a great drummer.
501
00:29:07,070 --> 00:29:11,081
I think the problem would've been
if they had tried to record with him.
502
00:29:12,085 --> 00:29:13,981
In some ways,
it was good getting Terry back.
503
00:29:14,077 --> 00:29:16,872
But I think it was hopeless
no matter who they would've got then,
504
00:29:16,970 --> 00:29:20,762
because Topper had gone,
and it wasn't the same.
505
00:29:20,860 --> 00:29:25,353
And after Topper had gone,
Mick's days were numbered.
506
00:29:39,663 --> 00:29:44,025
It was kind of interesting
to see how far we'd got
507
00:29:44,131 --> 00:29:47,407
and what it was like
to play that kind of thing,
508
00:29:47,506 --> 00:29:51,265
and how strange it was
with our numbers
509
00:29:51,363 --> 00:29:53,412
and what we were about.
510
00:29:53,517 --> 00:29:57,725
To be in that kind
of arena-style thing-
511
00:29:57,824 --> 00:30:02,065
it was a really interesting,
memorable thing.
512
00:30:02,163 --> 00:30:03,697
The band were really happy.
513
00:30:03,803 --> 00:30:05,852
Because how can you not be
in your twenties
514
00:30:05,956 --> 00:30:09,266
and be really happy
that you're succeeding,
515
00:30:09,363 --> 00:30:12,541
and that people like it,
and you're getting all this dough?
516
00:30:12,641 --> 00:30:16,433
They were best
when they were small and angry
517
00:30:16,531 --> 00:30:18,778
and not the stadium rockers.
518
00:30:18,878 --> 00:30:20,543
You know, they were still
a great stadium rock band,
519
00:30:20,646 --> 00:30:22,794
and, you know, the American audiences
love that and everything.
520
00:30:22,895 --> 00:30:25,361
But for me
and for British audiences,
521
00:30:25,467 --> 00:30:27,899
they were at their best when they
were hard and angry and poor.
522
00:30:29,356 --> 00:30:30,736
We haven't ate
since we've been here.
523
00:30:30,835 --> 00:30:33,464
We've been here three days.
We haven't had a thing to eat yet.
524
00:30:41,634 --> 00:30:44,966
But the dough
can be the problem,
525
00:30:45,073 --> 00:30:47,956
because, you know,
it's kind of a clich�
526
00:30:48,064 --> 00:30:51,077
to say that, you know,
people write their best music
527
00:30:51,181 --> 00:30:52,649
when they're starving.
528
00:30:52,756 --> 00:30:54,937
Well, people say that
for a good reason.
529
00:30:55,038 --> 00:30:58,764
And, you know, when they had
all their angst and energy
530
00:30:58,863 --> 00:31:02,590
and were rebelling because
everything was fucked up with them-
531
00:31:02,688 --> 00:31:05,383
they had no money
and blah, blah, blah-
532
00:31:05,484 --> 00:31:07,731
you know,
the fight was for real.
533
00:31:15,899 --> 00:31:18,628
When they cracked it, really,
with Combat Rock,
534
00:31:18,727 --> 00:31:20,393
everything seemed a bit frenetic,
535
00:31:20,495 --> 00:31:24,374
and everyone seemed to be
a bit generally stressed, actually.
536
00:31:24,481 --> 00:31:26,497
It felt to me like,
in the first time around,
537
00:31:26,602 --> 00:31:28,366
they were all arguing with me,
538
00:31:28,466 --> 00:31:30,000
and now they're arguing
with each other.
539
00:31:30,106 --> 00:31:32,057
That's the first thing.
Bernie's role had changed.
540
00:31:32,164 --> 00:31:35,342
He was less in control.
He was more...
541
00:31:35,442 --> 00:31:38,938
getting orders from Joe
rather than giving the orders.
542
00:31:39,042 --> 00:31:41,091
That was kind of reversed.
543
00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:45,042
And I think during that year, '82,
we did an awful lot of touring.
544
00:31:45,149 --> 00:31:47,231
We went everywhere
and did loads of work.
545
00:31:47,335 --> 00:31:49,581
Probably worked too hard, I think.
546
00:31:49,681 --> 00:31:53,725
And there was a tension developed
between Mick on one side
547
00:31:53,828 --> 00:31:55,976
and Joe and Paul on the other.
548
00:31:58,810 --> 00:32:00,977
And so, I was under
immense pressure.
549
00:32:01,078 --> 00:32:06,219
And so, Bernie said to me,
"Mick, why don't you give your lawyer
550
00:32:06,317 --> 00:32:10,401
power of attorney,
and then I'll work it out with him?"
551
00:32:10,501 --> 00:32:13,910
You know what I mean?
And so, I felt under pressure at the time,
552
00:32:14,015 --> 00:32:15,572
and I said okay for that period.
553
00:32:15,675 --> 00:32:17,298
Then he went
to the others and went,
554
00:32:17,401 --> 00:32:19,666
"Look what Mick's done.
He doesn't want to talk to you anymore.
555
00:32:19,764 --> 00:32:22,127
He wants you to talk to his lawyer. "
556
00:32:22,224 --> 00:32:23,814
And it fucked everything up.
557
00:32:23,917 --> 00:32:27,653
And so, that was what was happening
backstage, you know.
558
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:30,113
But backstage,
it was always, like, a bit chaotic.
559
00:32:30,210 --> 00:32:32,661
It was, like,
manipulative, because-
560
00:32:32,765 --> 00:32:34,932
Also, we weren't really told
what was going on.
561
00:32:35,033 --> 00:32:36,340
And so, by that time,
562
00:32:36,438 --> 00:32:39,248
we'd stopped talking
to each other a bit, you know?
563
00:32:39,346 --> 00:32:40,653
Well, more than a bit.
564
00:32:40,751 --> 00:32:42,886
We'd stopped pretty much
talking to each other,
565
00:32:42,987 --> 00:32:45,982
because we just were
off on our own trips,
566
00:32:46,085 --> 00:32:48,024
and we didn't know
what we were doing.
567
00:32:48,130 --> 00:32:51,354
We were just like a bunch of idiots
thrust into-
568
00:32:51,516 --> 00:32:54,097
into the spotlight, you know?
569
00:32:54,199 --> 00:32:56,584
The more they cranked up the heat
570
00:32:56,691 --> 00:32:59,620
and made us work harder and harder,
the more that tension-
571
00:32:59,726 --> 00:33:02,568
It was like a hothouse, you know?
It just got hotter and hotter.
572
00:33:02,665 --> 00:33:05,693
Really, it was so much work
573
00:33:05,794 --> 00:33:07,613
that it was killing Joe.
574
00:33:07,711 --> 00:33:09,911
It was just work, work, work.
575
00:33:12,471 --> 00:33:15,945
When you're working at that pressure,
you know, no one's thinking.
576
00:33:16,048 --> 00:33:17,769
There's no time for yourself
577
00:33:17,869 --> 00:33:20,483
to sit down and think about
what's going on with your life,
578
00:33:20,584 --> 00:33:23,742
and what's going on with what you're doing,
with your art, with your creativity.
579
00:33:23,843 --> 00:33:25,727
And I think they did-
They kind of, you know-
580
00:33:25,823 --> 00:33:27,729
They really kind of imploded
581
00:33:27,835 --> 00:33:30,765
through a sort of madness
that took over.
582
00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:33,102
Maybe everyone
was infected with it.
583
00:33:33,202 --> 00:33:35,587
But Joe certainly was.
584
00:33:36,971 --> 00:33:38,975
Now they had it,
585
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,378
everybody started taking liberties.
586
00:33:52,048 --> 00:33:54,378
Darling, you gotta let me know
587
00:33:55,243 --> 00:33:58,750
Should I say or should I go
588
00:33:58,852 --> 00:34:02,294
If you say that you are mine
589
00:34:02,398 --> 00:34:04,979
I'll be here till the day I die
590
00:34:06,104 --> 00:34:09,327
Come on and let me know
591
00:34:09,426 --> 00:34:10,765
Should I stay or should I go
592
00:34:10,863 --> 00:34:13,346
It was like
an unstoppable monster.
593
00:34:13,451 --> 00:34:15,335
And it was gonna become,
at that point-
594
00:34:15,431 --> 00:34:17,500
That they were gonna become
the biggest band in the world.
595
00:34:17,604 --> 00:34:21,372
And I later found out that
by this time, I think,
596
00:34:21,468 --> 00:34:23,886
Joe and Paul and Bernie
597
00:34:23,992 --> 00:34:27,150
were already plotting
the right time
598
00:34:27,250 --> 00:34:30,244
for Mick to be sacked.
599
00:34:30,349 --> 00:34:32,832
Should I stay or should I go
600
00:34:34,469 --> 00:34:37,699
I always heard
various discussions about that,
601
00:34:37,798 --> 00:34:40,319
but I didn't really think
it would ever happen.
602
00:34:40,423 --> 00:34:43,293
I knew they were disgruntled
with him.
603
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,329
It had a lot to do
with them being successful,
604
00:34:47,433 --> 00:34:49,637
and Joe and Paul
wanted to carry on
605
00:34:49,737 --> 00:34:51,876
and just keep rocking and rolling
606
00:34:51,978 --> 00:34:55,207
and not caring about the money
and not buying things,
607
00:34:55,306 --> 00:34:59,464
whereas Mick wanted to buy
a nice house and a nice car.
608
00:34:59,564 --> 00:35:01,506
He got a girlfriend
who was a model, you know.
609
00:35:01,612 --> 00:35:05,125
He started living the pop star life
that they were making fun of,
610
00:35:05,229 --> 00:35:08,394
and so that became
sort of dangerous.
611
00:35:20,145 --> 00:35:24,139
Oh, yeah, I'm absolutely sure
that Joe was frightened
612
00:35:24,241 --> 00:35:26,346
of the success that he got.
613
00:35:26,450 --> 00:35:29,265
Oh, I think that was the case
right from the very first day,
614
00:35:29,362 --> 00:35:31,468
because we used to argue about it.
615
00:35:31,571 --> 00:35:34,538
You know, I think it was Joe that said,
"We don't want any money. "
616
00:35:34,644 --> 00:35:36,848
I said, "What the hell you talking about-
don't want any money? Don't be silly. "
617
00:35:36,948 --> 00:35:39,698
Because I said, "If you want to be
successful, the best band in the world"-
618
00:35:39,797 --> 00:35:41,391
he always wanted to be
the best band in the world-
619
00:35:41,493 --> 00:35:43,316
"you're gonna sell millions of records,
and millions of pounds come in,
620
00:35:43,414 --> 00:35:44,974
so what are you
gonna do with it?"
621
00:35:45,078 --> 00:35:49,302
You know, the contradiction of,
kind of, his upbringing,
622
00:35:49,399 --> 00:35:51,375
his squatting background,
623
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,830
what he was supposed to be,
plus money,
624
00:35:54,936 --> 00:35:58,679
is really a complex issue for him.
625
00:35:59,673 --> 00:36:02,424
'Cause he's a bit naive, as well.
Joe is a bit naive.
626
00:36:03,514 --> 00:36:05,587
That's an important point,
you know?
627
00:36:05,691 --> 00:36:08,626
I mean, you know,
he's developed in many ways-
628
00:36:08,732 --> 00:36:10,554
creatively, artistically-
629
00:36:10,652 --> 00:36:12,922
but he has a few basic things
630
00:36:13,021 --> 00:36:16,370
he hasn't really figured out
about life.
631
00:36:16,478 --> 00:36:20,635
I think if you're a band
and you've got a set of ideals,
632
00:36:20,735 --> 00:36:23,354
you're bound to be a bit-
633
00:36:23,455 --> 00:36:26,555
kind of concerned if, like,
suddenly what you're doing
634
00:36:26,656 --> 00:36:29,885
is the opposite
of what you kind of set out
635
00:36:29,985 --> 00:36:32,735
and said you were gonna do
in the first place.
636
00:36:32,833 --> 00:36:35,387
I mean, some people say
doing the Who dates
637
00:36:35,490 --> 00:36:37,728
was the beginning of the end,
because they'd suddenly
638
00:36:37,826 --> 00:36:41,143
hit the roof that they were trying
to avoid when they started.
639
00:36:41,252 --> 00:36:44,286
They were playing stadiums.
640
00:36:44,389 --> 00:36:48,067
To be touring stadiums with them-
641
00:36:48,165 --> 00:36:49,595
in a way, it was traumatic,
642
00:36:49,701 --> 00:36:52,636
because it was like seeing
where we might end up.
643
00:36:52,742 --> 00:36:54,565
Because we were sort of
supporting the Who,
644
00:36:54,662 --> 00:36:57,478
and they were
pulling the crowd in.
645
00:36:57,576 --> 00:37:00,446
And I could see that in order
to get to that position,
646
00:37:00,552 --> 00:37:04,482
you'd have to become
a travesty of yourself.
647
00:37:04,585 --> 00:37:08,416
It really got to me, thinking that
your whole life would be one long-
648
00:37:08,522 --> 00:37:10,853
like, doing a photo shoot
in the morning,
649
00:37:10,951 --> 00:37:14,046
and then shooting some
crap video in the afternoon,
650
00:37:14,147 --> 00:37:16,348
and then doing some interview,
651
00:37:16,448 --> 00:37:19,858
and the amount of promotion
needed to drive-
652
00:37:19,963 --> 00:37:23,374
You know, it would just
destroy a person.
653
00:37:23,479 --> 00:37:27,086
It was becoming too much
for us, in a way.
654
00:37:27,186 --> 00:37:31,239
We didn't know how to handle
655
00:37:31,341 --> 00:37:33,574
all that tension or something.
656
00:37:33,674 --> 00:37:36,736
We didn't really know
how to handle it all.
657
00:37:36,837 --> 00:37:40,095
We never really thought about it
when we were going for it-
658
00:37:40,192 --> 00:37:41,914
what it would actually be like.
659
00:37:42,014 --> 00:37:44,596
We didn't have any plans.
660
00:37:46,456 --> 00:37:48,842
In any decent group,
there's always tension.
661
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:50,987
That's how it works.
662
00:37:51,090 --> 00:37:54,250
No one gets anywhere
by being nice to each other.
663
00:37:54,351 --> 00:37:58,535
Mick can be really laid back.
664
00:37:58,633 --> 00:38:00,997
And everybody's ready to go,
665
00:38:01,093 --> 00:38:03,839
but Mick would take
about another hour
666
00:38:03,938 --> 00:38:06,553
to get to the tour bus,
you know.
667
00:38:06,654 --> 00:38:08,060
While we're all sitting on the bus,
668
00:38:08,156 --> 00:38:10,738
then Mick would come along,
spliff in mouth.
669
00:38:10,841 --> 00:38:11,985
He's ready to go now.
670
00:38:12,087 --> 00:38:14,157
Everybody was pissed off
about it.
671
00:38:14,260 --> 00:38:16,494
Joe- he would go,
672
00:38:16,593 --> 00:38:19,688
especially on his own,
673
00:38:19,790 --> 00:38:21,827
not to be with Mick.
674
00:38:21,930 --> 00:38:24,131
Like, he would take a car.
675
00:38:24,232 --> 00:38:27,010
Everybody else would be
on the coach.
676
00:38:27,108 --> 00:38:30,268
Joe would take a car
and travel on his own,
677
00:38:30,368 --> 00:38:32,154
'cause he was pissed off
with him
678
00:38:32,253 --> 00:38:34,672
just doing his own thing.
679
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,826
Never wanted to be on time.
680
00:38:38,932 --> 00:38:40,207
He just didn't care.
681
00:38:40,307 --> 00:38:42,638
He didn't see the reason
why he had to be on time.
682
00:38:42,736 --> 00:38:44,838
We all had to wait on Mick.
683
00:38:46,986 --> 00:38:49,056
That was going on every day.
684
00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:51,044
Every day, every night.
685
00:38:51,140 --> 00:38:54,714
Even to go to the sound check,
to go to the show,
686
00:38:54,816 --> 00:38:57,562
to catch the plane...
687
00:38:57,660 --> 00:39:01,811
Every day,
we leave at Mick's time.
688
00:39:03,029 --> 00:39:05,328
And it was two camps,
really, wasn't it?
689
00:39:05,426 --> 00:39:07,562
It was Joe and Mick.
690
00:39:07,663 --> 00:39:12,229
And you've got
Kosmo's influence, as well.
691
00:39:13,224 --> 00:39:16,220
I think he more or less
stamped his flag
692
00:39:16,324 --> 00:39:19,070
in the ground at Joe's feet.
693
00:39:19,168 --> 00:39:23,984
And Mick was looked upon
as this camp,
694
00:39:24,089 --> 00:39:27,151
you know, rock'n'roll star.
695
00:39:27,254 --> 00:39:30,185
He was a rock'n'roll star.
696
00:39:30,290 --> 00:39:34,757
But the Strummer camp
didn't like him to make it obvious
697
00:39:34,860 --> 00:39:39,011
that he was prepared to enjoy
the fruits of their success.
698
00:39:40,005 --> 00:39:42,461
Mick was good at dealing
with the music business,
699
00:39:42,566 --> 00:39:44,639
and he wanted to join it,
700
00:39:44,743 --> 00:39:48,290
but he didn't see that necessarily
as being against his principles.
701
00:39:48,393 --> 00:39:50,433
Mick was like,
"Hey, we just made some money.
702
00:39:50,538 --> 00:39:52,295
We haven't made
any money forever.
703
00:39:52,394 --> 00:39:54,817
We've just been working hard.
Let's take a break. "
704
00:39:54,924 --> 00:39:56,867
Which is reasonable.
705
00:39:56,972 --> 00:40:02,059
But to Joe and Paul and Bernie,
it was unreasonable.
706
00:40:02,159 --> 00:40:04,396
They're such different people.
707
00:40:04,496 --> 00:40:07,312
In a way,
it was quite a paradox.
708
00:40:07,409 --> 00:40:10,061
So you had Mick, who,
709
00:40:10,162 --> 00:40:11,985
from what I know
when I met him,
710
00:40:12,083 --> 00:40:13,971
he was in a tower block,
711
00:40:14,068 --> 00:40:18,859
and you had Joe
from a relatively privileged background.
712
00:40:20,311 --> 00:40:23,825
It was funny how they took on
the almost opposite characters
713
00:40:23,928 --> 00:40:25,838
to what they really-
714
00:40:25,945 --> 00:40:28,663
You see, like,
Mick was the working-class guy,
715
00:40:28,763 --> 00:40:31,633
and then Joe was sort of trying
716
00:40:31,740 --> 00:40:34,611
to cover up his background,
717
00:40:34,717 --> 00:40:38,232
as if anyone gave a shit,
basically.
718
00:40:38,334 --> 00:40:40,245
I think we were becoming
more successful,
719
00:40:40,351 --> 00:40:43,200
which was making Joe
more tense, generally.
720
00:40:43,297 --> 00:40:46,593
And I think Mick was
kind of enjoying the success,
721
00:40:46,690 --> 00:40:50,467
and Joe was feeling
more pressure from it.
722
00:40:51,620 --> 00:40:55,134
Yeah, I was out on my own,
I suppose, yeah.
723
00:40:55,238 --> 00:40:58,141
I was, like, pretty difficult
to get along with,
724
00:40:58,247 --> 00:41:00,255
'cause things weren't going my way,
725
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,361
so I was in a bad mood all the time.
726
00:41:03,465 --> 00:41:06,882
These frictions reminded me
of Mick Jagger and Keith Richards.
727
00:41:06,987 --> 00:41:11,461
I mean, you could not be more
poles apart than their personalities.
728
00:41:11,565 --> 00:41:13,541
But for a while,
it worked in The Clash.
729
00:41:13,646 --> 00:41:15,174
Gave them an edge.
But in the end,
730
00:41:15,278 --> 00:41:19,055
it drove too big a wedge
between them.
731
00:41:19,152 --> 00:41:22,088
And then there were
other factors coming in,
732
00:41:22,193 --> 00:41:25,194
like the Bernie Rhodes factor.
733
00:41:36,632 --> 00:41:38,837
Towards Christmas,
734
00:41:38,936 --> 00:41:41,785
there was serious conversations
about what's gonna happen next.
735
00:41:41,882 --> 00:41:45,047
And this idea came up that,
you know, Joe and Paul were saying,
736
00:41:45,147 --> 00:41:46,871
"We don't know if Mick
is gonna be involved. "
737
00:41:46,972 --> 00:41:50,170
And, actually, looking back,
I didn't really take them very serious.
738
00:41:50,270 --> 00:41:52,059
I thought,
"No, that can't be right. That's silly. "
739
00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:53,566
I don't know. I didn't really-
740
00:41:53,663 --> 00:41:57,145
I found it very odd to imagine
The Clash without Mick.
741
00:41:57,249 --> 00:42:00,545
Wow. No, I never knew anything
about that. I don't know.
742
00:42:00,642 --> 00:42:05,379
We were going really fast,
and so we don't really-
743
00:42:05,476 --> 00:42:08,511
didn't have much time for reflection
744
00:42:08,613 --> 00:42:12,193
at that particular time,
you know?
745
00:42:12,295 --> 00:42:13,790
You never know anything.
746
00:42:13,896 --> 00:42:16,319
You never know
what's gonna happen the next minute.
747
00:42:16,425 --> 00:42:18,314
Something could change.
748
00:42:19,722 --> 00:42:21,695
I can understand that.
749
00:42:33,724 --> 00:42:35,283
Early in 1983,
750
00:42:35,387 --> 00:42:38,067
Joe decided to make
a home movie of sorts.
751
00:42:38,168 --> 00:42:39,955
Perhaps in an attempt
to restore harmony
752
00:42:40,054 --> 00:42:42,223
where there was now discord.
753
00:42:44,753 --> 00:42:48,840
I was, like, cast as the bad guy,
754
00:42:48,942 --> 00:42:51,906
and...
755
00:42:52,010 --> 00:42:55,389
we just acted out a part.
756
00:42:57,413 --> 00:43:00,257
Mick, in the movie,
was really great, really funny,
757
00:43:00,353 --> 00:43:02,653
and he's just his own character,
you know?
758
00:43:02,751 --> 00:43:06,293
So, we all enjoyed
doing that film.
759
00:43:06,396 --> 00:43:08,434
I did write some music for it.
760
00:43:08,537 --> 00:43:12,810
It was, like,
a hip-hop symphony of the city,
761
00:43:12,917 --> 00:43:17,005
and I think he didn't
like it very much.
762
00:43:17,105 --> 00:43:19,339
And then he didn't end up
using any music,
763
00:43:19,438 --> 00:43:22,337
'cause it was a silent film,
and so he kind of left it like that.
764
00:43:22,444 --> 00:43:26,498
He didn't like
the music anyway, and so...
765
00:43:26,599 --> 00:43:31,450
And then they put it on afterwards,
that music.
766
00:43:31,554 --> 00:43:33,341
It's all right.
767
00:43:33,441 --> 00:43:35,162
Which is fine,
you know what I mean?
768
00:43:35,263 --> 00:43:38,642
You couldn't have any old music,
because it's a silent movie, isn't it?
769
00:43:38,747 --> 00:43:41,592
So I was just at a piano, playing...
770
00:43:46,963 --> 00:43:50,669
I thought that would've been good.
But after they, you know,
771
00:43:50,767 --> 00:43:55,302
canned my symphonic ambitions,
772
00:43:59,430 --> 00:44:02,046
it just pulled us further apart.
773
00:44:06,495 --> 00:44:08,632
I'd been through a very tough year,
and I've enjoyed it.
774
00:44:08,733 --> 00:44:11,829
And we did all those things-
all this touring in America and so on.
775
00:44:11,929 --> 00:44:16,464
But at that point,
I felt I'd been there and done it.
776
00:44:17,588 --> 00:44:19,920
Yeah.
There's a new English bloke
777
00:44:20,018 --> 00:44:22,055
on the drums here.
778
00:44:24,397 --> 00:44:26,402
He's called Peter Howard.
779
00:44:29,992 --> 00:44:32,804
Peter Howard's drumming
is obviously very different
780
00:44:32,901 --> 00:44:34,525
to Topper's and to Terry Chimes'.
781
00:44:34,627 --> 00:44:37,624
He's a bit of a meat-and-potatoes,
sort of, almost John Bonham,
782
00:44:37,728 --> 00:44:40,060
pound-those-drums
sort of merchant.
783
00:44:41,308 --> 00:44:44,883
You know, I was into prog rock
and Yes and Genesis and stuff,
784
00:44:44,985 --> 00:44:47,666
which is something
I never told them in the interview.
785
00:44:47,765 --> 00:44:49,673
I liked Pete.
I liked Pete very much.
786
00:44:49,780 --> 00:44:55,404
I wasn't really that involved
in the audition process by that time.
787
00:44:55,502 --> 00:44:57,475
We'd drifted a little bit.
788
00:44:57,580 --> 00:45:01,253
A lot of people
won't get no justice tonight
789
00:45:03,462 --> 00:45:07,898
A lot of people
won't get no supper tonight
790
00:45:08,002 --> 00:45:13,692
'Cause the battle is getting harder
791
00:45:13,788 --> 00:45:17,461
In this iration
792
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,274
Armagideon time
793
00:45:20,373 --> 00:45:22,476
It's Armagideon
794
00:45:25,584 --> 00:45:29,322
Paul always, I think, saw himself
as a bit of a mediator, you know.
795
00:45:29,420 --> 00:45:32,799
He was always kind of trying
to get them to speak to each other.
796
00:45:32,904 --> 00:45:34,790
There wasn't much tension,
'cause they didn't talk.
797
00:45:34,887 --> 00:45:35,966
You know, it was very, kind of-
798
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:37,695
It wasn't much of an atmosphere
in the dressing room.
799
00:45:37,797 --> 00:45:38,910
It really wasn't.
800
00:45:39,014 --> 00:45:42,210
We got a lot of money
off of the US Festival-
801
00:45:42,310 --> 00:45:44,252
a giant U. S. rock festival.
802
00:45:44,358 --> 00:45:46,976
It's got something to do with
the guy that invented Apple Computers-
803
00:45:47,079 --> 00:45:48,323
Steve Wozniak.
804
00:45:48,423 --> 00:45:50,245
Anyway, so he must
have had a lot of money,
805
00:45:50,343 --> 00:45:52,929
so he decided to throw the concert.
806
00:45:53,031 --> 00:45:55,071
He probably lost his shirt on it.
807
00:45:55,175 --> 00:45:58,885
Playing the US Festival, yeah,
The Clash got half a million dollars.
808
00:45:58,984 --> 00:46:00,958
But Van Halen,
who topped the bill the next night,
809
00:46:01,064 --> 00:46:02,274
get a million dollars.
810
00:46:02,376 --> 00:46:04,231
But what was the great one-
811
00:46:04,328 --> 00:46:06,368
The stroke that Bernie pulls about,
812
00:46:06,472 --> 00:46:08,382
you know, how they're pulling
the press conference-
813
00:46:08,489 --> 00:46:11,784
that they are demanding,
you know, that the promoters give,
814
00:46:11,881 --> 00:46:13,769
you know,
$100,000 of whatever it is,
815
00:46:13,865 --> 00:46:16,963
to, you know,
the dispossessed of East L.A.
816
00:46:31,499 --> 00:46:35,274
You know, Bernie was, like,
really sloganeering,
817
00:46:35,371 --> 00:46:37,957
almost, like,
and trying to use it.
818
00:46:38,060 --> 00:46:41,289
And then we had
just a massive pressure.
819
00:46:41,388 --> 00:46:43,690
Like a massive- More-
Even more so-
820
00:46:43,787 --> 00:46:46,122
Even apart from the fact
that it was a really big gig.
821
00:46:46,220 --> 00:46:49,155
And it was my last gig.
822
00:46:49,260 --> 00:46:53,319
There was a punch-up at the end,
and then...
823
00:46:53,421 --> 00:46:55,309
And then Paul jumped in,
824
00:46:55,404 --> 00:46:57,925
and then it was,
"Elvis has left the building. "
825
00:46:59,981 --> 00:47:03,364
Ladies and gentlemen,
your attention, please.
826
00:47:04,749 --> 00:47:08,394
The Clash have left the building.
827
00:47:08,494 --> 00:47:11,494
The Clash have left the building.
828
00:47:11,598 --> 00:47:14,446
You needn't scream anymore,
I guess.
829
00:47:27,888 --> 00:47:31,467
Bernie said,
"Let's do New Orleans music, "
830
00:47:31,569 --> 00:47:33,609
and that was, like,
kind of a way, I think-
831
00:47:33,712 --> 00:47:37,029
probably his way to kind of
get us back to refocusing.
832
00:47:37,137 --> 00:47:40,334
But it was like,
"Why would we wanna do that?"
833
00:47:40,433 --> 00:47:42,440
You know what I mean?
And so that was like-
834
00:47:42,546 --> 00:47:44,433
We were really not on good terms
835
00:47:44,529 --> 00:47:48,556
by the time we were trying to do
New Orleans music in Camden Town.
836
00:47:48,658 --> 00:47:52,433
We were in rehearsal rooms trying to do
New Orleans music, and it was like-
837
00:47:52,530 --> 00:47:54,767
Not that I've got anything
against New Orleans music,
838
00:47:54,867 --> 00:47:58,795
but it just seemed ridiculous.
839
00:47:58,899 --> 00:48:02,314
And it was, like,
soon after that, I was sacked.
840
00:48:03,603 --> 00:48:06,255
Then I left.
841
00:48:06,355 --> 00:48:10,611
One of the things about Mick,
and it's undeniable,
842
00:48:10,708 --> 00:48:12,748
is that he's always late.
843
00:48:14,100 --> 00:48:16,173
Mick, you're late.
They're waiting in there for you.
844
00:48:16,276 --> 00:48:17,204
All right, Charlie.
845
00:48:17,301 --> 00:48:19,952
And very significantly,
on the day that he's fired,
846
00:48:20,053 --> 00:48:22,354
Mick turns up early,
and no one's there.
847
00:48:25,461 --> 00:48:28,625
I was early for once,
and so then I went up-
848
00:48:28,726 --> 00:48:30,746
I thought, "Sod this.
Is anybody else here?"
849
00:48:30,851 --> 00:48:33,685
And they went "no. "
So I went up to the bookshop
850
00:48:33,782 --> 00:48:35,451
up the road,
and then I came back.
851
00:48:35,553 --> 00:48:38,254
And funny enough,
Topper was there as well that day,
852
00:48:38,355 --> 00:48:39,926
and he'd already left the group.
853
00:48:40,030 --> 00:48:44,796
Just shows you
how close we are anyway.
854
00:48:46,118 --> 00:48:49,555
Mick just came up to me and he went,
"You're not gonna believe this.
855
00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:52,010
They just sacked me
from my own band. "
856
00:48:53,815 --> 00:48:55,198
And I said, "You're joking. "
857
00:48:55,297 --> 00:48:57,317
And he said, "Yes.
I'm going now. "
858
00:48:57,422 --> 00:48:59,992
Gone. Went to his guitar case,
859
00:49:00,096 --> 00:49:02,764
packed his guitars up,
and gone.
860
00:49:02,865 --> 00:49:04,918
And Joe looked around,
looked around.
861
00:49:05,023 --> 00:49:07,209
Then Joe looked at me and went,
"Well, that's your boy.
862
00:49:07,310 --> 00:49:11,527
If you want to,
you can go as well.
863
00:49:11,626 --> 00:49:14,909
That's your boy.
Follow him then. "
864
00:49:19,806 --> 00:49:22,859
Basically, we were fed up
with each other by that time,
865
00:49:22,963 --> 00:49:26,850
and so we'd had enough.
866
00:49:26,957 --> 00:49:28,856
And we all got on our own trips.
867
00:49:28,953 --> 00:49:32,137
Our own trips were, like-
It wasn't the same.
868
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,138
You know, when we were
all together at the start,
869
00:49:34,235 --> 00:49:37,936
we were like, "Come on, guys,
we can do this," you know?
870
00:49:38,036 --> 00:49:39,288
Blindly going forward.
871
00:49:39,388 --> 00:49:41,409
And then we did do it,
872
00:49:41,514 --> 00:49:43,951
and then...
873
00:49:44,058 --> 00:49:46,924
we started to fall apart.
874
00:49:47,022 --> 00:49:48,625
We had to change the team,
875
00:49:48,728 --> 00:49:51,715
because the atmosphere
was too terrible to-
876
00:49:51,821 --> 00:49:55,456
We've got so much work to do
that we can't waste time
877
00:49:55,556 --> 00:49:58,291
begging people to play
the damn guitar, you know?
878
00:49:58,390 --> 00:50:00,312
Bernie and Kosmo and Joe
and Paul all thought,
879
00:50:00,420 --> 00:50:03,407
"If we do that,
we've solved all these problems. "
880
00:50:03,512 --> 00:50:05,346
Actually, yeah,
you solve a problem,
881
00:50:05,444 --> 00:50:08,310
but you throw the baby out
with the bathwater,
882
00:50:08,407 --> 00:50:09,911
because the band
is no longer the band it was.
883
00:50:10,018 --> 00:50:12,884
At this point, you know,
we were sort of grown men,
884
00:50:12,981 --> 00:50:15,869
and, you know,
as it's been reported,
885
00:50:15,976 --> 00:50:18,996
you know, Mick did get
a bit out of hand
886
00:50:19,100 --> 00:50:21,988
in an Elizabeth Taylor way,
with his moods and whatever.
887
00:50:22,095 --> 00:50:24,444
But, you know, at the time,
that's what we felt.
888
00:50:24,543 --> 00:50:26,563
We felt, well, you know,
we'd had enough.
889
00:50:26,668 --> 00:50:30,006
Let's just kick him out,
and to hell with the consequences.
890
00:50:31,918 --> 00:50:34,037
After a while, you work together,
891
00:50:34,140 --> 00:50:38,478
and you live in each other's pockets
almost continually.
892
00:50:38,585 --> 00:50:41,835
In our time, we didn't even have
holidays where we could have a break.
893
00:50:41,935 --> 00:50:46,118
So we just continued
without any questions, so that-
894
00:50:46,219 --> 00:50:48,437
Obviously, you know,
895
00:50:48,537 --> 00:50:51,337
you get fed up with each other,
and then the group splits up,
896
00:50:51,436 --> 00:50:54,806
even though there must've been
lots of other reasons,
897
00:50:54,915 --> 00:50:56,749
you would think,
contributing towards it.
898
00:50:56,847 --> 00:50:59,618
You don't really see it
happening at the time,
899
00:50:59,716 --> 00:51:04,715
because you're going too fast
to notice anything.
900
00:51:04,816 --> 00:51:08,924
And then the next thing you know,
it's like a car crash.
901
00:51:09,023 --> 00:51:11,218
He always wanted holidays,
and it was terrible,
902
00:51:11,318 --> 00:51:13,252
'cause we always wanted
to get on and do the job.
903
00:51:13,358 --> 00:51:15,293
So, we had the tour set up...
904
00:51:15,398 --> 00:51:18,484
And just about to start the tour,
Mick's off on holiday.
905
00:51:18,586 --> 00:51:22,944
So, obviously, we didn't do the tour,
which is a bit of a pain in the neck.
906
00:51:23,048 --> 00:51:25,047
They say I didn't want to tour,
but I wanted to tour.
907
00:51:25,152 --> 00:51:28,967
But I wanted to play some places
that we hadn't played before,
908
00:51:29,073 --> 00:51:30,790
or something like that,
you know?
909
00:51:30,890 --> 00:51:32,477
So it wasn't that
I didn't want to tour,
910
00:51:32,579 --> 00:51:35,089
but I wanted to play
some other places.
911
00:51:35,193 --> 00:51:38,377
They say I didn't want to tour,
but I did.
912
00:51:38,476 --> 00:51:40,606
But I wanted to play
in Eskimo land.
913
00:51:43,830 --> 00:51:47,808
A lot of people
won't get no supper tonight
914
00:51:49,727 --> 00:51:54,118
A lot of people
won't get no justice tonight
915
00:51:54,222 --> 00:51:57,591
Choose your faction
916
00:51:57,696 --> 00:52:00,500
The one final thing that made me
really go over the edge
917
00:52:00,597 --> 00:52:04,292
was that he started to go on
about his lawyer a lot
918
00:52:04,390 --> 00:52:06,357
and say, "Well, my lawyer says this,
my lawyer says that. "
919
00:52:06,462 --> 00:52:09,832
And I didn't want that
to come between us,
920
00:52:09,937 --> 00:52:11,338
because we're a team,
you know.
921
00:52:11,435 --> 00:52:13,119
We decide what we're gonna do
amongst ourselves.
922
00:52:13,219 --> 00:52:16,175
We don't go and see lawyers about it.
What do they got to do with it?
923
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:17,996
And when he started to say,
"Well, my lawyer... "
924
00:52:18,097 --> 00:52:21,466
"We can sign that publishing deal
if my lawyer says it's okay... "
925
00:52:21,571 --> 00:52:23,419
"I'll do this if my lawyer... "
926
00:52:23,515 --> 00:52:26,188
I just said,
"Well, go write songs with him then. "
927
00:52:27,340 --> 00:52:30,524
Rock'n'roll history is littered
with errors, isn't it?
928
00:52:30,624 --> 00:52:34,286
But that is one
that leaps out at you
929
00:52:34,385 --> 00:52:38,232
as a mistake
of poor management.
930
00:52:38,337 --> 00:52:40,847
I mean, who was managing
The Clash that week
931
00:52:40,950 --> 00:52:46,145
when the decision was made
to sack Mick Jones?
932
00:52:46,242 --> 00:52:47,165
Bernie!
933
00:52:51,788 --> 00:52:54,972
I was as sad as everybody,
but I did see it coming,
934
00:52:55,071 --> 00:52:57,168
because they were
always talking about it.
935
00:52:57,271 --> 00:52:59,302
Especially Bernie.
936
00:53:00,299 --> 00:53:03,548
I don't think any other member of the band
was relevant to Joe at that point,
937
00:53:03,646 --> 00:53:06,058
apart from Bernie,
because Bernie had a hold.
938
00:53:06,163 --> 00:53:09,446
Asking Bernie back
meant that Bernie-
939
00:53:10,435 --> 00:53:11,956
he had his band back.
940
00:53:12,060 --> 00:53:16,679
And Joe was very easily influenced
by stronger personalities.
941
00:53:16,779 --> 00:53:19,257
And Bernie was like a father figure.
942
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,457
When he spoke to The Clash,
943
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,896
it was always Mick who was the one
that he sort of found
944
00:53:25,002 --> 00:53:27,860
was the one
who spoke back to him.
945
00:53:27,966 --> 00:53:31,183
Let Bernie sort out those...
946
00:53:31,281 --> 00:53:34,269
The others tended to sort of, like,
more agree with him,
947
00:53:34,373 --> 00:53:37,210
whereas Mick
was more of a sort of...
948
00:53:37,306 --> 00:53:39,925
You know,
more of a strong individual.
949
00:53:40,027 --> 00:53:42,167
Don't tell me to shut my mouth.
950
00:53:42,268 --> 00:53:44,374
I just didn't understand
why it would happen,
951
00:53:44,477 --> 00:53:47,740
and I said to Bernie,
"Did you try and stop him?"
952
00:53:47,838 --> 00:53:50,327
And he said, "No. We're gonna
reinvigorate the band.
953
00:53:50,432 --> 00:53:51,839
It's gonna be a new thing,
you know?
954
00:53:51,936 --> 00:53:54,588
We're gonna go forward,
and we've been looking backwards. "
955
00:53:54,690 --> 00:53:57,408
I just felt like he wanted to go
and do other things,
956
00:53:57,507 --> 00:54:00,825
and so, eventually, I had to give him
a push in that direction.
957
00:54:00,932 --> 00:54:02,656
Joe rang me.
958
00:54:02,757 --> 00:54:05,922
He said,
" I've got rid of that wanker.
959
00:54:06,023 --> 00:54:08,358
Are you with me,
or are you with him?"
960
00:54:12,201 --> 00:54:16,938
The first audition was up in Camden,
up in the Electric Ballroom,
961
00:54:17,036 --> 00:54:21,827
and there were about
60 other guitar players there.
962
00:54:21,934 --> 00:54:24,935
And then there was a second audition
at rehearsal rehearsals.
963
00:54:25,039 --> 00:54:26,632
More of the same.
Playing along to a tape.
964
00:54:26,736 --> 00:54:29,967
I was a punk, you know.
I was in the Cortinas.
965
00:54:30,065 --> 00:54:33,962
I was a guy that was playing
in a band in 1976,
966
00:54:34,964 --> 00:54:38,031
you know,
and was making records in 1977.
967
00:54:38,133 --> 00:54:40,752
So my influences
were the same as theirs.
968
00:54:40,855 --> 00:54:43,125
You know, hundreds of people out there
would give their right arm
969
00:54:43,224 --> 00:54:44,631
to play the guitar for The Clash,
970
00:54:44,728 --> 00:54:47,446
and, like, that's where
Vince and Nick came in.
971
00:54:47,545 --> 00:54:49,783
I took a day off work
and went up there to,
972
00:54:49,882 --> 00:54:51,672
you know, audition for a band.
973
00:54:51,772 --> 00:54:54,969
I don't know.
I was just quite-
974
00:54:55,068 --> 00:54:56,792
quite drunk.
975
00:54:56,893 --> 00:54:58,071
Extremely drunk.
976
00:55:01,087 --> 00:55:03,160
I was put in a room
with four initially-
977
00:55:03,264 --> 00:55:05,404
four other guys who I knew of-
978
00:55:05,505 --> 00:55:07,645
to learn a bunch of songs.
979
00:55:07,747 --> 00:55:11,097
And then about five
or six weeks in, they said,
980
00:55:11,204 --> 00:55:14,304
"Oh, and there's another guitar player
coming. He's coming in today. "
981
00:55:14,405 --> 00:55:16,545
No warning, nothing.
982
00:55:16,646 --> 00:55:18,719
So that was a bit of a shock.
983
00:55:18,823 --> 00:55:22,719
Yeah, I thought I was
gonna be the main guy.
984
00:55:24,202 --> 00:55:26,242
There was a little bit of a conflict
there, you know?
985
00:55:26,347 --> 00:55:29,862
We both thought,
"Who's going to be the one?"
986
00:55:29,964 --> 00:55:31,307
Oh, another guitar player?
987
00:55:31,405 --> 00:55:33,261
What, you mean you're not
gonna play guitar, Joe?
988
00:55:33,358 --> 00:55:36,109
Your name is Strummer.
What's going on? You know.
989
00:55:36,208 --> 00:55:38,794
So it was explained to me...
990
00:55:38,896 --> 00:55:41,767
You know, new look,
new idea...
991
00:55:41,873 --> 00:55:44,176
You know,
two guitarists means
992
00:55:44,275 --> 00:55:47,026
that there isn't one person
replacing Mick,
993
00:55:47,124 --> 00:55:48,652
et cetera...
994
00:55:48,756 --> 00:55:52,107
I don't know what
Vince likes musically,
995
00:55:52,214 --> 00:55:54,550
because he didn't
discuss things musically.
996
00:55:54,648 --> 00:55:57,551
And Vince, now and again,
when there was no one looking,
997
00:55:57,656 --> 00:56:00,047
would play the chords
from a Yes song
998
00:56:00,154 --> 00:56:02,706
or from a Genesis song,
just to kind of-
999
00:56:02,808 --> 00:56:04,782
It was kind of winking at me
that he knew-
1000
00:56:04,887 --> 00:56:07,221
You know, it was like,
kind of, yeah, I know.
1001
00:56:07,318 --> 00:56:11,789
They seemed to me to be
the wrong choice at that time,
1002
00:56:11,892 --> 00:56:15,632
because what Bernie was saying was that
it was gonna reinvigorate The Clash.
1003
00:56:15,730 --> 00:56:18,892
Looking at it, I didn't see
how you were gonna reinvigorate it
1004
00:56:18,993 --> 00:56:21,774
by bringing in people
who were already enamored by it,
1005
00:56:21,871 --> 00:56:24,259
because all you were gonna do
was reproduce
1006
00:56:24,366 --> 00:56:26,153
what was going on before.
1007
00:56:26,253 --> 00:56:28,772
And I just got very suspicious
at that point
1008
00:56:28,876 --> 00:56:30,784
about what the band
was gonna do.
1009
00:56:30,891 --> 00:56:33,061
I couldn't see how it was
gonna break new ground.
1010
00:56:33,162 --> 00:56:37,186
Nick Sheppard was great.
He was the part.
1011
00:56:37,287 --> 00:56:41,028
But Vince, I think,
they could've done without.
1012
00:56:44,932 --> 00:56:46,840
It's just Spinal Tap, man.
1013
00:56:46,947 --> 00:56:50,109
You just turn it up
and just fucking...
1014
00:56:50,210 --> 00:56:53,023
That's what I did.
1015
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:54,548
Did Vince have a bad attitude?
1016
00:56:54,656 --> 00:56:57,469
Vince was hired for his attitude.
1017
00:56:57,566 --> 00:56:59,899
I went down to the audition,
and Vince was the only person
1018
00:56:59,997 --> 00:57:01,240
who stood up and said-
1019
00:57:01,340 --> 00:57:04,437
In front of all
the other guitar players and went,
1020
00:57:04,539 --> 00:57:06,294
"This is fucking crap!"
1021
00:57:06,393 --> 00:57:08,116
And "I'm not fucking playing
this shit!"
1022
00:57:08,217 --> 00:57:09,874
"Oh, he's got attitude. "
1023
00:57:10,935 --> 00:57:12,658
And they practically
kind of went, "Right.
1024
00:57:12,758 --> 00:57:14,187
That's our man right there,"
you know?
1025
00:57:14,294 --> 00:57:17,140
Without even really hearing
what he was like as a musician.
1026
00:57:17,236 --> 00:57:18,664
So they hired him for attitude.
1027
00:57:18,772 --> 00:57:21,192
What they maybe didn't get
1028
00:57:21,298 --> 00:57:23,402
was that when you hire
someone for attitude,
1029
00:57:23,505 --> 00:57:24,911
you get their attitude,
1030
00:57:25,009 --> 00:57:27,277
not the one you think
you're gonna get.
1031
00:57:27,376 --> 00:57:29,447
Which is, yeah, again-
Yeah, sure,
1032
00:57:29,551 --> 00:57:33,542
it's kind of a Bernie Rhodes
type thing, you know?
1033
00:57:38,858 --> 00:57:40,744
Especially when Bernie
became more established
1034
00:57:40,841 --> 00:57:43,807
and wants more back end,
and once Mick had gone,
1035
00:57:43,911 --> 00:57:45,765
it was about
kind of getting everyone
1036
00:57:45,863 --> 00:57:48,644
to kind of, you know,
live rough practically.
1037
00:57:48,741 --> 00:57:50,912
You know, so my wages went down
to practically nothing.
1038
00:57:51,012 --> 00:57:53,913
There was no means of support
any other way at all, you know.
1039
00:57:54,018 --> 00:57:56,799
Obviously, there was a great deal
of money around, you know,
1040
00:57:56,897 --> 00:57:59,067
but not for me
1041
00:57:59,168 --> 00:58:02,614
and not for Nick
and not for Vince either.
1042
00:58:02,718 --> 00:58:05,139
The new musicians are all
on 150 quid a week.
1043
00:58:05,245 --> 00:58:07,513
Well, of course it's a con.
1044
00:58:07,612 --> 00:58:10,328
The whole thing is a con
by then, isn't it?
1045
00:58:10,426 --> 00:58:13,108
Even rock'n'roll is a con.
1046
00:58:14,329 --> 00:58:17,142
100 pounds a week?
I can make that and more-
1047
00:58:17,239 --> 00:58:20,750
more money than that just by...
1048
00:58:21,749 --> 00:58:23,635
fucking selling my ass,
you know,
1049
00:58:23,732 --> 00:58:27,657
and make more money
than 150 quid a week.
1050
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,614
You go around the planet,
1051
00:58:29,711 --> 00:58:33,188
making piles and piles
and piles of fucking cash
1052
00:58:33,292 --> 00:58:34,851
for a bunch of people
1053
00:58:34,954 --> 00:58:36,840
who were supposed
to be going around, going like,
1054
00:58:36,937 --> 00:58:40,993
"Oh, we're so humanitarian.
1055
00:58:41,094 --> 00:58:45,052
We love the people.
We're so socialist.
1056
00:58:45,155 --> 00:58:47,357
We love looking after the band. "
1057
00:58:47,457 --> 00:58:49,114
You know, blah-dee-blah.
1058
00:58:49,216 --> 00:58:51,931
And they're just "corporated"
into the bloody system.
1059
00:58:52,029 --> 00:58:55,736
You know, they'd been taken over.
They were "corporated," you know?
1060
00:58:58,169 --> 00:59:01,298
It's all about, kind of,
making life difficult
1061
00:59:01,399 --> 00:59:03,601
potentially to make great music.
1062
00:59:03,701 --> 00:59:06,764
It was like a corporation,
and you work with...
1063
00:59:06,866 --> 00:59:10,093
You got your guitar broom,
1064
00:59:10,192 --> 00:59:12,329
and you're walking around,
and you're sweeping the floor.
1065
00:59:12,430 --> 00:59:14,730
I've worked in a lot of warehouses,
1066
00:59:14,828 --> 00:59:17,477
and they're all those
sort of jobs and crap.
1067
00:59:17,578 --> 00:59:20,445
And you don't have any say.
1068
00:59:20,551 --> 00:59:22,111
You don't have any say
in anything.
1069
00:59:22,214 --> 00:59:23,871
You just do what you're told.
1070
00:59:23,974 --> 00:59:26,241
And you do what you're told
to get the money
1071
00:59:26,340 --> 00:59:29,949
and keep the thing
moving along, you know?
1072
00:59:30,048 --> 00:59:32,468
I don't deal with this
drug-related culture anymore.
1073
00:59:32,574 --> 00:59:34,035
It's all hippie stuff.
1074
00:59:34,141 --> 00:59:36,278
And all of a sudden,
nobody was allowed to get stoned.
1075
00:59:36,380 --> 00:59:37,840
Nobody was allowed to take drugs.
1076
00:59:37,947 --> 00:59:40,978
There was a real kind of,
you know, regime going on
1077
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,119
about what people could
and couldn't wear, you know,
1078
00:59:43,222 --> 00:59:45,392
and it was pretty bad.
1079
00:59:45,492 --> 00:59:48,523
And the anti-drugs thing
really is also-
1080
00:59:48,626 --> 00:59:52,813
That's a kind of, you know,
back-handed way of criticizing Mick,
1081
00:59:52,910 --> 00:59:56,770
who everyone knows
is a big spliff-head, of course.
1082
00:59:57,771 --> 00:59:59,842
But so did Joe.
1083
00:59:59,945 --> 01:00:01,537
Just as much.
1084
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:06,393
There was a lot of slagging
and public stuff going on from their side.
1085
01:00:06,500 --> 01:00:08,637
Mick never says a bloody word,
1086
01:00:08,739 --> 01:00:11,770
which I thought
was really cool, actually.
1087
01:00:14,430 --> 01:00:18,388
I didn't even like
what they were starting to wear.
1088
01:00:18,491 --> 01:00:20,824
They were starting to wear sort of
1089
01:00:20,922 --> 01:00:24,847
commercially produced punk outfits.
1090
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:29,584
That was the moment in which
I felt that Joe was being exploited,
1091
01:00:29,682 --> 01:00:35,014
that The Clash was being
pushed forward for other reasons.
1092
01:00:35,118 --> 01:00:38,050
I think it mainly happened
1093
01:00:38,156 --> 01:00:40,642
not just for Bernie's political reasons,
1094
01:00:40,746 --> 01:00:43,646
but for financial reasons as well,
1095
01:00:43,751 --> 01:00:45,244
because it had become a monster.
1096
01:00:45,351 --> 01:00:50,649
We wanted to strip it down
back to punk rock roots
1097
01:00:50,755 --> 01:00:53,567
and see what's left
and see how it progresses from there.
1098
01:00:53,664 --> 01:00:57,181
I think Kosmo
had baked up this theory
1099
01:00:57,284 --> 01:01:00,966
that they would be
"the" punk rockers,
1100
01:01:01,065 --> 01:01:02,529
king punks,
1101
01:01:02,635 --> 01:01:05,673
and take it back to basics almost.
1102
01:01:05,775 --> 01:01:07,720
Yeah, I just feel like
1103
01:01:07,825 --> 01:01:10,764
the blander the rest
of the music is getting,
1104
01:01:10,869 --> 01:01:14,070
the more it needs for something
that's raw again.
1105
01:01:14,170 --> 01:01:17,687
The trouble is, Joe is coming out
with all this stuff about, you know,
1106
01:01:17,790 --> 01:01:19,897
going back to basics and whatever.
1107
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:21,758
But if you look at him,
1108
01:01:21,859 --> 01:01:24,994
the state of his soul is fairly evident,
1109
01:01:25,095 --> 01:01:28,482
and you don't really necessarily believe
what he's saying in those interviews.
1110
01:01:28,587 --> 01:01:30,859
Actually, you're not convinced
that he's convinced.
1111
01:01:30,958 --> 01:01:33,198
Punk was a rebellion
against self-indulgence.
1112
01:01:33,297 --> 01:01:36,083
Punk said, "To hell with self-indulgence.
It's meaningless. "
1113
01:01:36,181 --> 01:01:41,272
Well, he seems to be actually
behaving like a dictator, to be honest.
1114
01:01:41,371 --> 01:01:43,348
And he also seems
extremely angry.
1115
01:01:43,454 --> 01:01:46,840
Sometimes you think
it's just contrived anger,
1116
01:01:46,946 --> 01:01:48,639
probably for the sake
of the media.
1117
01:01:48,740 --> 01:01:53,120
But, actually, I think he's
imploding with anger, actually.
1118
01:01:53,226 --> 01:01:56,394
The message is,
now is the time
1119
01:01:56,494 --> 01:01:58,383
to cut everything out
1120
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,370
that's been wasting all your time.
1121
01:02:00,467 --> 01:02:03,919
If you want to be out of control,
1122
01:02:04,023 --> 01:02:07,158
now is the time!
1123
01:02:07,259 --> 01:02:11,388
It's The Clash!
1124
01:02:11,488 --> 01:02:13,947
Down the road
1125
01:02:14,051 --> 01:02:17,154
Came a junco partner
1126
01:02:17,256 --> 01:02:20,259
Boy, he was loaded
1127
01:02:20,363 --> 01:02:23,400
As can be
1128
01:02:23,503 --> 01:02:26,408
He was knocked out
1129
01:02:26,515 --> 01:02:27,978
Knocked out, loaded
1130
01:02:28,085 --> 01:02:30,390
We started playing in America.
1131
01:02:30,488 --> 01:02:32,563
Big gigs. 15,000 people.
1132
01:02:32,666 --> 01:02:34,359
Stadium rock, you know?
1133
01:02:34,461 --> 01:02:36,700
Songs they knew.
They all had a great time.
1134
01:02:39,042 --> 01:02:43,390
I did try to phone up
all the promoters in the world
1135
01:02:43,496 --> 01:02:46,566
and tell them I was coming out
with The Clash as well,
1136
01:02:46,667 --> 01:02:48,677
just to mess with them
a little bit.
1137
01:02:48,782 --> 01:02:51,086
But apart from that,
I was fine with it.
1138
01:02:51,185 --> 01:02:52,878
I was only kidding.
1139
01:02:54,966 --> 01:02:57,587
It was a complete wind-up,
you know,
1140
01:02:57,689 --> 01:03:00,988
just to make Bernie go crazy.
1141
01:03:06,692 --> 01:03:09,062
Touring America.
You're 24. You're single.
1142
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:11,399
Everybody loves you.
Everybody wants to take you out
1143
01:03:11,498 --> 01:03:14,501
and show you the town,
buy you drinks.
1144
01:03:14,606 --> 01:03:17,359
Jeez, what a hard job.
1145
01:03:17,458 --> 01:03:19,828
We were driving massive drives,
1146
01:03:19,925 --> 01:03:22,962
and I don't think there was a toilet
on the bus, and it was uncomfortable.
1147
01:03:23,065 --> 01:03:26,517
You know what Greyhound buses
are like. They're for poor people.
1148
01:03:29,408 --> 01:03:34,109
It wasn't as much fun
as the early Clash tours, definitely.
1149
01:03:34,206 --> 01:03:36,115
Everybody tried.
1150
01:03:36,222 --> 01:03:38,742
And especially Joe and Paul,
1151
01:03:38,845 --> 01:03:41,627
you know,
were trying to make it work
1152
01:03:41,724 --> 01:03:44,789
and have a successful band,
1153
01:03:44,891 --> 01:03:47,279
but it was just very, very difficult.
1154
01:03:47,386 --> 01:03:51,410
It's hard to replace people.
It's hard to replace your youth.
1155
01:03:51,513 --> 01:03:54,927
You can't have money
and pretend that you don't.
1156
01:03:55,031 --> 01:03:59,601
You know, all this stuff goes into
the whole punk rock picture.
1157
01:03:59,702 --> 01:04:01,938
It doesn't go into
every rock'n'roll story,
1158
01:04:02,036 --> 01:04:03,891
but it goes into punk rock,
1159
01:04:03,988 --> 01:04:07,086
'cause punk rock is supposed
to mean a certain thing.
1160
01:04:07,187 --> 01:04:08,975
You know what I mean?
1161
01:04:09,074 --> 01:04:10,983
It means youth and rebellion.
1162
01:04:11,089 --> 01:04:12,812
It wasn't a good band anymore.
1163
01:04:12,913 --> 01:04:15,083
You know, they did
the moves and stuff,
1164
01:04:15,184 --> 01:04:17,387
and you're hearing
the songs you want to hear,
1165
01:04:17,488 --> 01:04:20,487
but there wasn't a focus,
and nobody really knew
1166
01:04:20,590 --> 01:04:22,978
what they were doing.
1167
01:04:24,333 --> 01:04:26,220
Pete was a good guy.
1168
01:04:26,317 --> 01:04:30,145
You know, as it must've been
consequently the group after I left.
1169
01:04:30,251 --> 01:04:33,381
He must've found it
very difficult circumstances.
1170
01:04:33,482 --> 01:04:36,579
And it's, like, very difficult
if you're not actually
1171
01:04:36,681 --> 01:04:40,422
emotionally connected to the songs
that you're playing as well.
1172
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:42,853
If you haven't lived the songs,
how difficult it must be
1173
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:47,356
to try to play them and sing
them with any conviction.
1174
01:05:05,022 --> 01:05:06,844
Bernie Rhodes thought,
you know,
1175
01:05:06,941 --> 01:05:10,257
that there's some more guys
he can tell what to do,
1176
01:05:10,365 --> 01:05:12,372
so he had full control.
1177
01:05:12,476 --> 01:05:14,963
Joe just sort of decided
to let Bernie
1178
01:05:15,067 --> 01:05:16,889
do whatever he wanted.
1179
01:05:16,987 --> 01:05:20,019
But Paul didn't say much.
1180
01:05:20,121 --> 01:05:23,862
He was happy just
to stand there, follow Joe.
1181
01:05:23,959 --> 01:05:26,741
But those guys-
I felt real sorry for them,
1182
01:05:26,838 --> 01:05:29,390
because they could not handle it.
1183
01:05:29,494 --> 01:05:33,322
And then, you know,
two guys to play Mick's part?
1184
01:05:33,428 --> 01:05:36,624
And not only that,
but the audience would tell them
1185
01:05:36,724 --> 01:05:38,828
they're no Mick Jones.
1186
01:05:38,930 --> 01:05:40,653
And at times, they just-
1187
01:05:40,754 --> 01:05:43,851
you know, you could see them
crumbling on stage.
1188
01:05:43,953 --> 01:05:46,636
They tried their best, man,
1189
01:05:46,736 --> 01:05:49,964
but no way could they handle it.
1190
01:05:50,063 --> 01:05:52,037
They were just playing the songs.
1191
01:05:52,141 --> 01:05:54,791
Mick used to play
different solos all the time.
1192
01:05:54,893 --> 01:05:58,503
He used to add things
or throw something away.
1193
01:05:58,604 --> 01:06:01,702
But these guys- it was just like
going through the motions.
1194
01:06:01,802 --> 01:06:03,689
It wasn't their fault.
1195
01:06:08,232 --> 01:06:10,174
Joe's dad passes on
1196
01:06:10,279 --> 01:06:13,060
in the autumn of 1984,
1197
01:06:13,158 --> 01:06:16,866
while they're on, you know,
the dodgy Clash tour of Britain,
1198
01:06:16,965 --> 01:06:19,547
and he just goes to the funeral.
1199
01:06:19,650 --> 01:06:23,093
There's a gig that night.
Leaves to go to the gig.
1200
01:06:23,198 --> 01:06:25,018
He doesn't have any time to mourn it.
1201
01:06:25,115 --> 01:06:26,804
And from what I understand,
1202
01:06:26,904 --> 01:06:29,454
no one in the rest of the group
was really told about it.
1203
01:06:29,557 --> 01:06:31,442
He disappeared for two days,
and we didn't even know
1204
01:06:31,538 --> 01:06:33,325
he'd gone to his father's funeral.
1205
01:06:33,424 --> 01:06:35,876
Then, at the same time,
you know, his mother is ill.
1206
01:06:35,981 --> 01:06:38,661
She's got cancer.
She was in a hospice.
1207
01:06:38,761 --> 01:06:41,147
He's going to visit her regularly.
1208
01:06:41,255 --> 01:06:45,690
He's been in a crisis, really,
ever since Mick's kicked out of the group.
1209
01:06:45,793 --> 01:06:48,756
He was quite ripe
to be steered by Bernie.
1210
01:06:48,861 --> 01:06:50,866
He was quite vulnerable.
1211
01:06:50,970 --> 01:06:54,926
Very strong guy,
but he was very vulnerable.
1212
01:06:55,029 --> 01:06:58,570
He must have felt like he was
gonna take over the world with Bernie.
1213
01:06:58,673 --> 01:07:03,718
Bernie ran the band like it was
some military operation.
1214
01:07:03,818 --> 01:07:06,052
Yeah, I mean, we had a lot
of band meetings all the time,
1215
01:07:06,151 --> 01:07:08,188
and then there'd be a lot of,
"And you-", you know?
1216
01:07:08,292 --> 01:07:10,624
"And you-
And you wore a checked shirt.
1217
01:07:10,722 --> 01:07:13,587
What fucking band do you think
this is, Big Country?"
1218
01:07:14,588 --> 01:07:17,040
Bernie, Joe and Kosmo
1219
01:07:17,145 --> 01:07:19,378
obviously had an agenda,
1220
01:07:19,478 --> 01:07:22,889
and Bernie wanted
that agenda to proceed,
1221
01:07:22,994 --> 01:07:27,528
and so he would use
what he thought
1222
01:07:27,628 --> 01:07:31,202
were the appropriate tactics
to get a result.
1223
01:07:31,304 --> 01:07:34,648
Kosmo, Joe and Bernie
1224
01:07:34,755 --> 01:07:36,923
all did an amount of bullying,
1225
01:07:37,025 --> 01:07:39,672
but Vince was probably
a lot more sensitive to it.
1226
01:07:39,773 --> 01:07:42,453
He might have taken it
a bit more personally.
1227
01:07:42,553 --> 01:07:45,517
I was bullied from the day one.
1228
01:07:45,621 --> 01:07:47,212
God, for fuck's sake.
1229
01:07:47,316 --> 01:07:49,549
The guy fucking was laying into me
1230
01:07:49,648 --> 01:07:52,427
from the day I joined,
almost, isn't it?
1231
01:07:52,524 --> 01:07:55,587
Controlling them,
telling them who's the boss.
1232
01:07:55,689 --> 01:07:58,620
He's the boss. "Do what I say. "
That sort of thing.
1233
01:07:58,724 --> 01:08:00,544
But I wouldn't call that bullying.
1234
01:08:00,642 --> 01:08:04,761
I just thought he wanted them
to get on with it, and don't slack.
1235
01:08:04,861 --> 01:08:07,575
The band was a band
for about four weeks,
1236
01:08:07,673 --> 01:08:11,945
and then Bernie jumped in
and started kicking butt
1237
01:08:12,052 --> 01:08:14,536
and pushing our fucking asses.
1238
01:08:14,641 --> 01:08:17,027
And that was the end of that,
you know?
1239
01:08:17,134 --> 01:08:20,446
You just, like, become slaves
1240
01:08:20,553 --> 01:08:23,419
to The Clash machine.
1241
01:08:23,526 --> 01:08:26,904
I don't think Vince
was any more targeted
1242
01:08:27,009 --> 01:08:29,624
than anybody else.
1243
01:08:29,726 --> 01:08:31,611
I don't think
that Bernie succeeded
1244
01:08:31,707 --> 01:08:33,941
in what he was trying to do
with any of us.
1245
01:08:34,041 --> 01:08:36,787
But I know what
they were trying to do, and perhaps-
1246
01:08:36,885 --> 01:08:39,303
I don't want to be too positive
about anything Bernie did,
1247
01:08:39,409 --> 01:08:41,229
but perhaps,
in some kind of way,
1248
01:08:41,327 --> 01:08:44,958
it wasn't a terrible idea
to try and get five people to work
1249
01:08:45,058 --> 01:08:48,689
and bond, you know,
and make them into a gang.
1250
01:08:55,930 --> 01:08:59,018
So, in October 1984,
1251
01:08:59,119 --> 01:09:02,554
Joe goes down to Granada,
in Spain.
1252
01:09:02,659 --> 01:09:06,507
And it's kind of a bit
of a pilgrimage for him.
1253
01:09:06,612 --> 01:09:10,080
He needs to get away from things.
He needs a creative place to think.
1254
01:09:10,183 --> 01:09:13,586
He wanted to visit the grave
of Federico Garc�a Lorca,
1255
01:09:13,690 --> 01:09:16,745
the great surrealist poet, dramatist,
1256
01:09:16,847 --> 01:09:19,902
who was murdered
in the Spanish Civil War.
1257
01:09:20,004 --> 01:09:22,232
He meets this group called 091,
1258
01:09:22,331 --> 01:09:25,255
a Spanish group
who he wants to produce.
1259
01:09:25,361 --> 01:09:28,317
He said that he had
to fire Mick Jones
1260
01:09:28,421 --> 01:09:31,954
because Mick Jones
smoked too much joints.
1261
01:09:32,056 --> 01:09:34,024
And he said that
1262
01:09:34,128 --> 01:09:37,151
while he was preparing a joint.
1263
01:09:47,934 --> 01:09:50,413
We finished the American tour,
and we came home,
1264
01:09:50,517 --> 01:09:52,713
and there was,
kind of, some time off.
1265
01:09:52,813 --> 01:09:55,324
Obviously, the next job
was to make a record.
1266
01:09:55,427 --> 01:09:59,058
So the first idea was,
1267
01:09:59,158 --> 01:10:01,734
it would be Joe,
Norman Watt-Roy,
1268
01:10:01,836 --> 01:10:04,989
Pete and, I think,
Mickey Gallagher.
1269
01:10:05,088 --> 01:10:08,045
We got together with Joe
to do a bit of jamming
1270
01:10:08,150 --> 01:10:10,476
in the studio in Camden.
1271
01:10:10,573 --> 01:10:12,606
And what do you know?
1272
01:10:12,709 --> 01:10:15,089
I was playing a Hammond.
Joe wanted me to play a Hammond.
1273
01:10:15,196 --> 01:10:16,468
But when we went in
and listened to it,
1274
01:10:16,567 --> 01:10:18,415
it did sound a bit Dylanish,
you know?
1275
01:10:18,512 --> 01:10:20,262
So Bernie was
in the control room,
1276
01:10:20,361 --> 01:10:23,134
and he wanted to change it,
make it different,
1277
01:10:23,231 --> 01:10:26,416
so he put the organ out of phase
with everything else.
1278
01:10:26,515 --> 01:10:29,852
So I walk in the studio, and I go,
"What's going on? What's going on?"
1279
01:10:29,958 --> 01:10:33,046
And he was just, "Just trying
to make it different, make it different. "
1280
01:10:33,147 --> 01:10:35,115
And I heard them rehearsing,
1281
01:10:35,220 --> 01:10:37,002
and they sounded bloody awful.
1282
01:10:37,101 --> 01:10:38,884
They sounded like pub rock.
It was awful.
1283
01:10:38,982 --> 01:10:40,254
So that didn't happen.
1284
01:10:40,353 --> 01:10:42,766
That was the last I heard.
When I did that session,
1285
01:10:42,872 --> 01:10:45,829
I didn't get asked back,
so, you know...
1286
01:10:45,933 --> 01:10:48,444
I just took it that he didn't like it,
you know?
1287
01:10:48,547 --> 01:10:52,113
And Joe was doing everything
that Bernie said at the time.
1288
01:10:52,214 --> 01:10:54,279
Yeah, that was the kind of thing
I noticed
1289
01:10:54,382 --> 01:10:56,861
when I went out to Munich
with Joe.
1290
01:10:56,965 --> 01:10:59,574
Joe changed when
he was around Bernie.
1291
01:10:59,675 --> 01:11:04,708
He kind of, like, was,
"Yes sir, no, sir," to Bernie.
1292
01:11:04,809 --> 01:11:07,385
I don't think Joe became
a yes-man to Bernie.
1293
01:11:07,487 --> 01:11:10,227
I think that he decided
1294
01:11:10,325 --> 01:11:13,163
on a course of action
to take with Bernie
1295
01:11:13,258 --> 01:11:17,433
without realizing
Bernie's ulterior motive,
1296
01:11:17,531 --> 01:11:20,781
which was to become
a member of The Clash.
1297
01:11:28,053 --> 01:11:32,348
And I think by the time
we got to make the record,
1298
01:11:32,453 --> 01:11:34,987
he had realized that
that was going on,
1299
01:11:35,091 --> 01:11:36,989
and it didn't sit well with him.
1300
01:11:37,087 --> 01:11:39,039
But it was too late to go back.
1301
01:11:39,145 --> 01:11:42,480
He had to believe in what he was doing,
and he told me that.
1302
01:11:42,589 --> 01:11:44,004
He said to me in Munich,
1303
01:11:44,101 --> 01:11:47,348
"I have to believe that
this is the right thing to do. "
1304
01:11:49,217 --> 01:11:52,200
Joe deduces that Bernie Rhodes,
1305
01:11:52,306 --> 01:11:54,740
having seen the success
Malcolm McLaren has had,
1306
01:11:54,847 --> 01:11:57,711
actually globally,
with records like "Buffalo Gals"
1307
01:11:57,808 --> 01:12:00,824
and the Duck thing,
1308
01:12:00,929 --> 01:12:04,144
wants yet again
to emulate his former partner
1309
01:12:04,243 --> 01:12:05,713
and become a star himself.
1310
01:12:05,820 --> 01:12:07,871
The decision was taken
1311
01:12:07,976 --> 01:12:11,310
that they would use this producer
1312
01:12:11,418 --> 01:12:14,534
called Jose Unidos,
who didn't actually exist.
1313
01:12:14,636 --> 01:12:17,269
It was basically Bernie Rhodes
1314
01:12:17,371 --> 01:12:19,587
and Joe.
1315
01:12:21,264 --> 01:12:25,543
I wasn't surprised that Bernie
was producing the record.
1316
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:28,042
He's a megalomaniac.
1317
01:12:28,150 --> 01:12:30,432
He wanted to be in The Clash.
1318
01:12:30,531 --> 01:12:33,229
But it wasn't The Clash.
It wasn't really The Clash.
1319
01:12:33,331 --> 01:12:37,697
You know, it was Joe trying
to keep the thing going on his own.
1320
01:12:37,803 --> 01:12:40,601
He was obviously under
an immense amount of pressure
1321
01:12:40,699 --> 01:12:43,683
to come up with new material
that would fit the vein.
1322
01:12:43,788 --> 01:12:47,353
Once Mick had gone,
that took the music out of the band.
1323
01:12:47,456 --> 01:12:48,893
And who was gonna do it now?
1324
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:50,766
Bernie, with his drum machine?
1325
01:12:51,768 --> 01:12:52,853
You know?
1326
01:12:55,501 --> 01:12:56,915
I was never privy
to the conversation
1327
01:12:57,013 --> 01:12:59,963
about using a drum machine on it
1328
01:13:00,069 --> 01:13:02,801
and getting Fayney
to program the drums.
1329
01:13:02,901 --> 01:13:05,764
In an attempt to make it more
contemporary? I don't know.
1330
01:13:05,861 --> 01:13:10,074
The new Clash album
was actually an electronic album.
1331
01:13:10,173 --> 01:13:13,968
I did, you know, the majority
of the drum programming on it.
1332
01:13:15,417 --> 01:13:17,533
And it was, I suppose...
1333
01:13:17,638 --> 01:13:19,206
It was supposed to be
a new departure.
1334
01:13:19,311 --> 01:13:22,525
It was supposed to be a fresher,
newer, bolder Clash.
1335
01:13:22,625 --> 01:13:24,227
That's what it was meant to be.
1336
01:13:24,330 --> 01:13:26,710
Well, the whole recording
is a farce, you know?
1337
01:13:26,807 --> 01:13:29,572
The band aren't on it.
It was done in different sessions.
1338
01:13:29,671 --> 01:13:31,755
You got session musicians
playing on it.
1339
01:13:31,859 --> 01:13:34,394
Songs aren't very good.
1340
01:13:34,498 --> 01:13:38,711
Well, the only thing I ever did
was to sit in a drum booth with the track
1341
01:13:38,809 --> 01:13:41,189
and told to play like
I was throwing the drum kit
1342
01:13:41,287 --> 01:13:43,019
down the stairs, or...
1343
01:13:43,121 --> 01:13:44,053
Yeah.
1344
01:13:44,151 --> 01:13:46,016
It was hard work in the studio.
1345
01:13:46,113 --> 01:13:47,748
It was harder than I thought
it was gonna be,
1346
01:13:47,851 --> 01:13:49,749
because the vibe wasn't there.
1347
01:13:57,311 --> 01:13:59,362
The busking tour
1348
01:13:59,466 --> 01:14:03,138
was a decision that
me and Joe made in Munich
1349
01:14:03,238 --> 01:14:05,374
at the end of the recording,
1350
01:14:05,474 --> 01:14:07,414
after a conversation with Kosmo
1351
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,680
about taking the band
and doing something as a band.
1352
01:14:10,780 --> 01:14:14,223
Like, reconnecting as a band.
1353
01:14:14,328 --> 01:14:17,171
They seemed to think it was
the best tour that they ever did.
1354
01:14:17,268 --> 01:14:19,404
They kind of set off, allegedly,
with no money,
1355
01:14:19,505 --> 01:14:21,836
although Paul had a credit card.
1356
01:14:21,934 --> 01:14:23,426
We stood by the side
of the motorway-
1357
01:14:23,532 --> 01:14:25,668
all of us dressed in,
like, leather jackets
1358
01:14:25,769 --> 01:14:27,589
and leather jeans and T-shirts,
1359
01:14:27,686 --> 01:14:29,822
with our hair done nice,
you know?
1360
01:14:29,924 --> 01:14:31,831
They had guitars,
and I had a pair of drumsticks,
1361
01:14:31,937 --> 01:14:34,268
and I was supposed
to find something to hit,
1362
01:14:34,366 --> 01:14:37,624
which was invariably
a dustbin or a plastic chair.
1363
01:14:37,721 --> 01:14:41,132
That was really good fun.
Some really, really good fun.
1364
01:14:41,237 --> 01:14:44,201
It was really believable,
and Joe was fearless.
1365
01:14:44,305 --> 01:14:47,498
Absolutely fucking fearless
about what he did.
1366
01:14:47,597 --> 01:14:50,790
And they kind of traversed
the country for a bit.
1367
01:14:50,888 --> 01:14:53,667
A couple of weeks or so.
And it seems to be quite successful.
1368
01:14:53,765 --> 01:14:56,892
By the time they get into Scotland,
people have heard of this,
1369
01:14:56,993 --> 01:14:59,030
and, you know,
they're getting quite big crowds.
1370
01:14:59,134 --> 01:15:00,758
Very quickly, as soon as people
knew who we were,
1371
01:15:00,860 --> 01:15:03,312
there were thousands of people
standing around.
1372
01:15:03,417 --> 01:15:05,901
We'd hand around the hat,
and you'd get phone numbers
1373
01:15:06,006 --> 01:15:08,523
and drugs and money
1374
01:15:08,626 --> 01:15:11,721
and, you know,
sexual invitations and stuff.
1375
01:15:11,823 --> 01:15:13,446
And it was all really good fun.
1376
01:15:13,548 --> 01:15:16,511
Eventually, I think that Joe
lost his voice, I think,
1377
01:15:16,616 --> 01:15:19,068
and they'd basically
come back to London,
1378
01:15:19,173 --> 01:15:21,341
much to Bernie's anger,
1379
01:15:21,442 --> 01:15:24,253
who felt that they should have
kept going much longer.
1380
01:15:26,107 --> 01:15:30,477
Eight months later,
he came from Munich, I think,
1381
01:15:30,582 --> 01:15:33,394
and he was really frustrated
with the new record and said,
1382
01:15:33,490 --> 01:15:37,479
"That fucking Bernie Rhodes.
I don't want to be more his toy. "
1383
01:15:37,581 --> 01:15:40,708
I said, "What's happening?"
He said, "The Clash is over.
1384
01:15:40,809 --> 01:15:44,546
I don't want to know anything
about Bernie, the band"...
1385
01:15:44,644 --> 01:15:47,640
And no more comments.
1386
01:15:47,776 --> 01:15:50,042
This is when we played in Roskilde.
1387
01:15:50,141 --> 01:15:52,048
We were on the bus
going to the festival.
1388
01:15:52,154 --> 01:15:55,249
Bernie was giving it some
at the front,
1389
01:15:55,351 --> 01:15:59,339
and I saw Joe shoot him
a look of pure hate.
1390
01:15:59,441 --> 01:16:01,708
And that was kind of
when I first realized
1391
01:16:01,806 --> 01:16:04,389
that this shit
1392
01:16:04,491 --> 01:16:07,139
was gonna hit the fan.
1393
01:16:07,239 --> 01:16:10,203
Obviously Joe
had stopped believing.
1394
01:16:11,330 --> 01:16:13,716
In July that year,
1395
01:16:13,823 --> 01:16:16,667
I ran into Joe on the street,
and he said,
1396
01:16:16,764 --> 01:16:18,736
"Come have a drink
with me tonight,"
1397
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:21,967
and I went to a place
called 192 in Notting Hill.
1398
01:16:22,069 --> 01:16:26,126
And about midnight, he says,
"I've got a big problem.
1399
01:16:26,226 --> 01:16:27,981
Mick was right about Bernie. "
1400
01:16:28,081 --> 01:16:32,269
Joe came up to me
and said what a stupid mistake he made
1401
01:16:32,367 --> 01:16:34,701
and he shouldn't have
never followed Bernie.
1402
01:16:34,797 --> 01:16:37,349
In tears.
He just broke down.
1403
01:16:37,453 --> 01:16:40,134
He knew he'd made a mistake.
1404
01:16:40,235 --> 01:16:43,103
But by that time,
Mick had started Big Audio Dynamite.
1405
01:16:50,309 --> 01:16:53,439
And he goes around to see Mick,
1406
01:16:53,540 --> 01:16:57,945
and Mick is actually waiting for a cab
to take him to the airport,
1407
01:16:58,049 --> 01:17:00,950
'cause he's finished
the first B.A. D. album.
1408
01:17:01,055 --> 01:17:02,778
And he's exhausted.
He's going on holiday.
1409
01:17:02,879 --> 01:17:04,950
He's going to Nassau.
1410
01:17:05,053 --> 01:17:07,092
And so they have a spliff,
1411
01:17:07,197 --> 01:17:09,912
and then the cab comes
after about five minutes.
1412
01:17:10,011 --> 01:17:13,587
Then the next thing, Joe gets on a plane
and goes out to Nassau.
1413
01:17:13,689 --> 01:17:15,248
Doesn't know where he is.
1414
01:17:16,567 --> 01:17:21,104
When I arrived there,
it was about 11:00 at night.
1415
01:17:21,205 --> 01:17:22,862
And I turned up to their villa,
1416
01:17:22,965 --> 01:17:25,418
and there was a guy
in the swimming pool,
1417
01:17:25,523 --> 01:17:28,391
splashing around in the middle
of the night, completely drunk.
1418
01:17:28,497 --> 01:17:30,798
It was Joe Strummer,
and I learned
1419
01:17:30,896 --> 01:17:35,531
that he'd actually hired a bicycle
1420
01:17:35,630 --> 01:17:38,214
and cycled around the island
for three days,
1421
01:17:38,316 --> 01:17:40,737
knocking on random doors,
1422
01:17:40,843 --> 01:17:43,362
trying to find Mick,
1423
01:17:43,466 --> 01:17:46,312
because he'd come there
with a mission
1424
01:17:46,407 --> 01:17:49,341
of asking him to reform The Clash.
1425
01:17:49,446 --> 01:17:51,550
I mean, it was too late.
1426
01:17:51,654 --> 01:17:54,205
It was too late.
You know, B.A. D. had started,
1427
01:17:54,308 --> 01:17:58,015
and all these characters were involved
and up and running, and it was going,
1428
01:17:58,114 --> 01:18:00,480
and it was like, well, there was no way
that that was gonna happen.
1429
01:18:01,632 --> 01:18:03,038
And I could see that Joe-
1430
01:18:03,135 --> 01:18:05,108
He was in pain at that point,
you know?
1431
01:18:05,214 --> 01:18:06,936
He...
1432
01:18:07,037 --> 01:18:09,938
His life had gone out of kilter.
1433
01:18:13,977 --> 01:18:16,910
I'll tell you, the thing
about Cut the Crap
1434
01:18:17,015 --> 01:18:20,843
is that you gotta put it
in the context
1435
01:18:20,949 --> 01:18:22,923
of what was happening
in Joe's life.
1436
01:18:23,028 --> 01:18:26,954
I mean, Joe, at that time
was Bernie's foil.
1437
01:18:27,058 --> 01:18:29,707
I mean, he's the guy
who's got the opportunity
1438
01:18:29,809 --> 01:18:31,434
to take control of this,
1439
01:18:31,536 --> 01:18:34,764
but he was having to deal
with pretty bad issues
1440
01:18:34,862 --> 01:18:36,901
in his private life.
1441
01:18:37,005 --> 01:18:38,826
When Cut the Crap came out,
1442
01:18:38,924 --> 01:18:41,191
I listened to it with an open mind,
1443
01:18:41,291 --> 01:18:43,112
but...
1444
01:18:44,105 --> 01:18:46,951
to be honest,
1445
01:18:47,048 --> 01:18:49,414
it was in the title.
1446
01:18:49,511 --> 01:18:51,746
"This is England"
was a good song.
1447
01:18:58,434 --> 01:19:01,149
I mean,
it's really hard to fucking...
1448
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:07,006
It's just really depressing,
because "This is England"
1449
01:19:07,106 --> 01:19:11,003
is just such a tremendous song,
1450
01:19:11,107 --> 01:19:14,142
because it just represents
what's going down, you know?
1451
01:19:14,245 --> 01:19:16,449
We don't have
a fucking England anymore.
1452
01:19:16,550 --> 01:19:19,618
Everything is gone,
is down the tubes, you know?
1453
01:19:19,719 --> 01:19:21,378
And it...
1454
01:19:30,188 --> 01:19:34,248
I heard it when it first came out,
but I just couldn't stand it.
1455
01:19:34,350 --> 01:19:36,839
Considering the lyrical peaks
1456
01:19:36,942 --> 01:19:40,010
that Joe had reached
on Combat Rock,
1457
01:19:40,113 --> 01:19:42,317
I just thought, "What's he done?"
1458
01:19:42,417 --> 01:19:47,089
Bernie thinks that, you know,
he's, like, spotted a genre,
1459
01:19:47,188 --> 01:19:51,499
which is sort of electro,
sort of hip-hop,
1460
01:19:51,605 --> 01:19:53,067
sort of cut-up stuff.
1461
01:19:54,070 --> 01:19:56,821
The idea hadn't worked-
the drum machine idea.
1462
01:19:56,919 --> 01:19:58,709
I don't know what Fayney
knew about it,
1463
01:19:58,809 --> 01:20:01,712
but it didn't exactly swing like
a drum machine does, you know?
1464
01:20:01,817 --> 01:20:03,542
That's why you use them.
1465
01:20:03,642 --> 01:20:05,050
Because they keep time.
1466
01:20:05,147 --> 01:20:08,050
It wasn't the intention to go in
and make a half-hearted record.
1467
01:20:08,157 --> 01:20:10,875
We genuinely wanted
to make something
1468
01:20:10,974 --> 01:20:12,665
that people would go, "Wow. "
1469
01:20:15,584 --> 01:20:18,684
The thing is,
that Joe and Bernie
1470
01:20:18,784 --> 01:20:20,192
were the kind of guys
that if you said,
1471
01:20:20,290 --> 01:20:22,200
"Let's go crazy and do something
completely off the wall,"
1472
01:20:22,307 --> 01:20:23,714
they'd go, "Yeah, let's do it. "
1473
01:20:23,811 --> 01:20:26,780
They needed someone to say,
"Hang on. That won't work. "
1474
01:20:26,884 --> 01:20:28,892
But there's no one there to say that,
'cause without Mick there-
1475
01:20:28,997 --> 01:20:30,623
Mick would've said,
"Well, that won't work. "
1476
01:20:30,726 --> 01:20:33,891
But without him there,
1477
01:20:33,992 --> 01:20:36,065
they could do something
completely crazy,
1478
01:20:36,169 --> 01:20:38,559
and they wouldn't realize
what a mistake it was
1479
01:20:38,665 --> 01:20:42,661
until it was out in the shops
and, you know, too late.
1480
01:20:42,763 --> 01:20:46,278
I don't really remember, like,
the bad reviews came out,
1481
01:20:46,381 --> 01:20:48,521
and Joe went,
"Aw, fuck it. I'm out of here. "
1482
01:20:48,622 --> 01:20:50,248
I don't remember it like that.
1483
01:20:50,351 --> 01:20:52,490
I think that he pretty much
was disgruntled
1484
01:20:52,592 --> 01:20:54,218
with the band and the record,
1485
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:57,420
and then when
the bad reviews came out,
1486
01:20:57,522 --> 01:21:00,589
it was probably
the icing on the cake.
1487
01:21:04,053 --> 01:21:06,923
If there was a mistake,
I've made it.
1488
01:21:08,215 --> 01:21:11,413
So, it's, like,
November, December '85.
1489
01:21:11,512 --> 01:21:13,105
It finally disintegrates.
1490
01:21:13,209 --> 01:21:17,684
The last meeting that we had,
you know, like, as a group...
1491
01:21:19,644 --> 01:21:22,809
We went into Joe's house,
and he said, "I'm not gonna carry on,"
1492
01:21:22,909 --> 01:21:25,244
and he asked us
not to carry on either,
1493
01:21:25,342 --> 01:21:27,831
and we all said that we wouldn't.
1494
01:21:27,935 --> 01:21:31,417
I think by that time, I don't think anyone
really, really could give a fuck.
1495
01:21:31,521 --> 01:21:34,370
It was just flogging a dead horse.
1496
01:21:34,466 --> 01:21:36,801
I remember Pete saying,
"You know, what you should do
1497
01:21:36,899 --> 01:21:40,413
is take out a retraction, if you like,
in the papers- an open letter-
1498
01:21:40,517 --> 01:21:43,688
and we should go
and record the album as a band. "
1499
01:21:43,788 --> 01:21:48,054
But, obviously, by the time
that Joe had called this meeting,
1500
01:21:48,151 --> 01:21:50,065
that wasn't an option
as far as he was concerned.
1501
01:21:50,172 --> 01:21:53,595
He was going to pay for a page
1502
01:21:53,700 --> 01:21:57,353
in every broadsheet newspaper
and all the tabloids to have it printed,
1503
01:21:57,453 --> 01:22:00,012
saying,
"Crap-cutting commencing,"
1504
01:22:00,116 --> 01:22:02,008
with this kind of public broadcast
1505
01:22:02,104 --> 01:22:03,930
of how the band
1506
01:22:04,028 --> 01:22:06,905
had basically been hoodwinked
1507
01:22:07,011 --> 01:22:11,299
by a political dictator-
1508
01:22:11,407 --> 01:22:12,522
Bernie.
1509
01:22:17,404 --> 01:22:21,888
They gave us 1,000 pounds
in a sweaty envelope each,
1510
01:22:21,992 --> 01:22:23,884
and that was that, really.
1511
01:22:25,712 --> 01:22:27,571
That was the end of it, you know?
1512
01:22:27,669 --> 01:22:30,064
It should've ended
considerably earlier than that,
1513
01:22:30,171 --> 01:22:33,212
but it just didn't.
1514
01:22:33,314 --> 01:22:36,136
I mean, I think everyone
was very reluctant to let it go.
1515
01:22:38,255 --> 01:22:42,093
Bernie then saw The Clash
as a brand-
1516
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:44,310
brand Clash-
which meant that you wouldn't
1517
01:22:44,413 --> 01:22:47,169
even have to have
any members of The Clash in it.
1518
01:22:48,166 --> 01:22:52,202
When Joe said he was gonna leave,
Bernie was gonna get a new singer.
1519
01:22:52,304 --> 01:22:53,868
Brand Clash.
1520
01:23:03,210 --> 01:23:05,157
I witnessed the auditions.
1521
01:23:05,262 --> 01:23:07,504
I went to the auditions
for new singers,
1522
01:23:07,604 --> 01:23:09,649
because I thought
I might find someone
1523
01:23:09,754 --> 01:23:13,724
that I could work with
outside of that situation.
1524
01:23:13,827 --> 01:23:17,031
You know, or maybe have
something to do with that situation,
1525
01:23:17,131 --> 01:23:18,661
but not as The Clash.
1526
01:23:18,767 --> 01:23:22,868
I know for a fact that Paul would never
have been the lead singer of The Clash.
1527
01:23:22,969 --> 01:23:25,878
It was more Bernie,
and possibly Kosmo,
1528
01:23:25,984 --> 01:23:29,025
trying to say, "Look,
let's keep this going if you want to. "
1529
01:23:29,127 --> 01:23:31,074
"Do you want to do this?"
and "Do you want to do that?"
1530
01:23:31,181 --> 01:23:35,315
And then I think
Paul pretty much just said no.
1531
01:23:35,415 --> 01:23:39,221
The talk of the time
with Bernie and Kosmo,
1532
01:23:39,328 --> 01:23:42,981
when we were auditioning
for singers and stuff, was-
1533
01:23:43,081 --> 01:23:44,678
They were talking about
football teams
1534
01:23:44,781 --> 01:23:47,373
and how players left
and players came back.
1535
01:23:47,475 --> 01:23:51,413
That was the kind of rationale
that they were using,
1536
01:23:51,517 --> 01:23:54,459
but it was patently bullshit.
1537
01:23:54,564 --> 01:23:57,605
But does he own
the name "The Clash"?
1538
01:23:57,708 --> 01:24:00,945
He can't do it, 'cause otherwise
he probably would do that, wouldn't he?
1539
01:24:01,044 --> 01:24:03,416
He'd have a version
out there now, touring,
1540
01:24:03,513 --> 01:24:05,405
you know,
if he owned the name.
1541
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:08,861
Being in a band like The Clash,
1542
01:24:08,967 --> 01:24:12,620
you're in a situation that is
full of extreme contradictions.
1543
01:24:16,312 --> 01:24:18,706
Now, The Clash actually
were a manufactured band.
1544
01:24:18,814 --> 01:24:20,541
This is the paradox of it.
1545
01:24:20,642 --> 01:24:22,556
There can't be
that many manufactured bands
1546
01:24:22,663 --> 01:24:27,016
that go on to get
not just the recognition,
1547
01:24:27,122 --> 01:24:32,852
but to be considered one of the bands
with the most integrity.
1548
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:35,959
So, they did pretty well to survive.
1549
01:24:37,950 --> 01:24:41,692
The Clash that I played in
was a fabrication, you know?
1550
01:24:41,789 --> 01:24:44,472
It was this me, and it was this guy,
and it was this drummer.
1551
01:24:44,573 --> 01:24:47,987
But the school of thought is that
The Clash were always a fabrication.
1552
01:24:48,091 --> 01:24:51,287
They were a band
that was kind of made by, you know-
1553
01:24:51,387 --> 01:24:53,623
Well, if you'd listened to Bernie,
he invented the world,
1554
01:24:53,722 --> 01:24:56,307
but he certainly takes this credit
1555
01:24:56,410 --> 01:24:59,704
for getting Joe
and putting him with Mick.
1556
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:01,971
I think The Clash, as a band,
1557
01:25:02,071 --> 01:25:06,194
were doomed
by virtue of Bernie's interference
1558
01:25:06,295 --> 01:25:09,109
and Topper's drug problem.
1559
01:25:09,206 --> 01:25:11,027
I don't think there was
ever gonna be a way
1560
01:25:11,125 --> 01:25:12,913
that you would be able
to reconcile those things.
1561
01:25:13,013 --> 01:25:16,394
But I think that was the band
it was supposed to be.
1562
01:25:16,500 --> 01:25:20,776
I think the musical aspect
is key to the whole thing,
1563
01:25:20,882 --> 01:25:22,475
because, at the end of the day,
they were a band.
1564
01:25:22,578 --> 01:25:27,813
And I think once a bunch of guys
can't get into the same room together
1565
01:25:27,921 --> 01:25:31,717
and make the same sort of music
that everyone likes, you know,
1566
01:25:31,823 --> 01:25:37,321
it's gonna fall apart very quickly,
which is exactly what happened.
1567
01:25:37,422 --> 01:25:40,389
What happened, you know,
when Mick Jones left?
1568
01:25:40,493 --> 01:25:43,591
Not a lot. Just happened.
It was the same thing.
1569
01:25:43,692 --> 01:25:48,066
Running around onstage
like a fucking monkey,
1570
01:25:48,171 --> 01:25:52,098
playing it, and making
a loud guitar sound.
1571
01:25:52,202 --> 01:25:54,024
Much later on, you sort of think,
1572
01:25:54,121 --> 01:25:56,128
"Oh, yeah,
I would have done it different. "
1573
01:25:56,233 --> 01:25:58,054
You may have done it different,
1574
01:25:58,152 --> 01:26:01,413
but I don't think the outcome
would have been any different
1575
01:26:01,512 --> 01:26:04,893
even if you had,
'cause it's inevitable.
1576
01:26:05,958 --> 01:26:07,681
It's just a natural progression
1577
01:26:07,782 --> 01:26:09,243
that at the beginning,
it was brilliant,
1578
01:26:09,350 --> 01:26:12,164
and then at the end,
they were grabbing at different straws
1579
01:26:12,260 --> 01:26:14,049
to try to keep the band going,
1580
01:26:14,148 --> 01:26:16,449
'cause Joe and Paul
really wanted to.
1581
01:26:16,547 --> 01:26:18,816
And it didn't really work,
but they tried.
1582
01:26:18,914 --> 01:26:22,623
But I don't see it
as so much a mystery
1583
01:26:22,722 --> 01:26:25,176
that, you know, when a new band,
new movement-
1584
01:26:25,281 --> 01:26:26,589
punk was new-
1585
01:26:26,688 --> 01:26:28,214
that when you
get a little bit older,
1586
01:26:28,320 --> 01:26:31,701
you just can't be
a fucking crazy-ass punk
1587
01:26:31,807 --> 01:26:34,141
unless you're,
you know, a loser.
1588
01:26:35,870 --> 01:26:39,131
It's funny how society
takes something, absorbs it,
1589
01:26:39,229 --> 01:26:43,450
and sort of devalues it,
and takes all the sort of "oomph" out of it
1590
01:26:43,548 --> 01:26:45,457
and makes it banal.
1591
01:26:45,563 --> 01:26:49,239
And that kind of happened with punk,
and it had to happen with punk.
1592
01:26:49,338 --> 01:26:51,160
But I think you can see,
over the last 30 years,
1593
01:26:51,258 --> 01:26:55,566
that the sort of real core of it
has influenced a lot of people,
1594
01:26:55,672 --> 01:26:58,257
a lot of young people.
1595
01:26:58,359 --> 01:27:01,228
It's lasted because of
the great truths in that music,
1596
01:27:01,334 --> 01:27:05,130
and also, you know,
the wit with which those lyrics
1597
01:27:05,238 --> 01:27:07,309
and music is delivered.
1598
01:27:07,413 --> 01:27:09,868
And it kind of, you know,
makes you smile.
1599
01:27:09,972 --> 01:27:14,957
And great truths, you know,
told with a joke, tend to last.
1600
01:27:19,250 --> 01:27:25,544
The Clash, to me,
was the best rock'n'roll band-
1601
01:27:25,649 --> 01:27:28,234
live band-
when they were hot.
1602
01:27:28,336 --> 01:27:32,045
They spoke for the working class,
1603
01:27:32,143 --> 01:27:37,259
and they spoke for human rights.
1604
01:27:37,358 --> 01:27:38,470
Extraordinary group.
1605
01:27:38,573 --> 01:27:41,507
As Bernie Rhodes did say,
"This is a very creative situation,"
1606
01:27:41,613 --> 01:27:43,522
and it was.
1607
01:27:43,628 --> 01:27:45,057
They did what they did,
1608
01:27:45,164 --> 01:27:48,993
and I think people
should be grateful for that.
1609
01:27:49,099 --> 01:27:53,571
Most of the people I know will tell you
that that band changed their lives.
1610
01:27:55,241 --> 01:27:59,397
Yes, so we did something good,
obviously,
1611
01:27:59,496 --> 01:28:02,812
and that's why
we should leave it at that.
1612
01:28:14,309 --> 01:28:15,770
When groups break up,
1613
01:28:15,877 --> 01:28:19,389
it's often very difficult
for the various members,
1614
01:28:19,491 --> 01:28:22,491
and it often takes them years
to come down from it,
1615
01:28:22,595 --> 01:28:24,766
and sometimes
they don't succeed at all.
1616
01:28:24,866 --> 01:28:27,713
So, Joe certainly
has got that going,
1617
01:28:27,809 --> 01:28:32,150
but also his terrible guilt
for having kicked Mick out.
1618
01:28:32,256 --> 01:28:37,143
You know, "I was the one
who blew it through classic hubris. "
1619
01:28:37,248 --> 01:28:41,981
Plus, his parents have both died
in quick succession.
1620
01:28:42,078 --> 01:28:45,241
And he's prone
to depression anyway.
1621
01:28:45,341 --> 01:28:48,471
And, basically,
he really goes into one.
1622
01:28:48,572 --> 01:28:52,084
But Joe does still want,
you know, in his heart of hearts,
1623
01:28:52,188 --> 01:28:55,034
to get The Clash back together.
1624
01:28:55,131 --> 01:28:57,073
Three weeks before Joe died,
1625
01:28:57,178 --> 01:29:00,625
he played a benefit gig
in aid of the Fire Brigades Union.
1626
01:29:00,730 --> 01:29:03,347
It was at this show,
in Acton, West London,
1627
01:29:03,449 --> 01:29:08,182
that for the first time in 20 years,
Mick joined him onstage.
1628
01:29:11,927 --> 01:29:15,820
Obviously the truth will always remain
an entirely subjective entity.
1629
01:29:15,926 --> 01:29:20,332
But, just perhaps,
Joe had it sussed when he sang,
1630
01:29:20,437 --> 01:29:24,014
"The truth is only known
by guttersnipes. "
133436
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