Original subtitles

♪♪

This is an ABC Color Presentation.

♪♪

Hello. I'm Alec Baldwin.

First up tonight,

a conversation with a true icon of American cinema,

Robert De Niro.

The Oscar‐winning star

of some of the most famous films in Hollywood history

continues to be an advocate

for artistic expression and filmmaking

as the co‐founder of the Tribeca Film Festival.

Next year, De Niro re‐teams with director Martin Scorsese

and fellow acting legend Al Pacino

in the much‐anticipated new film "The Irishman."

Also tonight,

Oscar‐nominated actress Taraji P. Henson is here.

She continues her role as Cookie on the popular drama "Empire"

and is featured in the upcoming Disney‐animated film

"Ralph Breaks the Internet."

We're glad you've joined us.

Robert De Niro and Taraji P. Henson,

coming up right now.

[ Sultry jazz plays ]

♪♪

♪♪

To a degree, I don't want to overstate this,

but, you know, you and I may have something in common

because I saw the documentary about your dad.

De Niro: Yeah.

Very moving.

Your love for your dad is very moving.

Keeping the studio frozen there in time

and the way you've maintained that

is exactly the kind of thing I would do... Yeah.

...if I had some parallel in my life,

'cause I had ‐‐

You know, my dad was a good guy.

My dad ‐‐ and although the numbers are different ‐‐

you were older and he was older ‐‐

My dad died when I was 25.

When he was 55, he had cancer. Oh, wow.

And your dad wasn't that old either.

He was only 70, 71? 71.

But he was not an old guy. No.

Now, even though you had succeeded in this business,

and he saw you succeed,

and you, uh, uh, uh,

had won two Oscars before he passed away ‐‐

which is unbelievable.

What I sometimes think,

I think of all the things I wanted to do for my dad. Yeah.

I would have sent him anywhere around the world.

Yeah. Enjoy his retirement.

Did you feel the same way about your dad? Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, I did that with, uh, my grandmother

and my ‐‐ my ‐‐ my grandfather.

When I did "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight,"

the money I made from that,

I sent them to Italy and Ireland.

And I literally pushed my grandfather on the plane ‐‐

he was in a wheelchair ‐‐

but I wanted them to go to these places

before it was too late.

And that's ‐‐ was my present to them,

to see the ‐‐

you know, see the "old country," if you will.

Um, uh, did you enjoy directing?

Yeah. I made a movie with you once.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.

And...I enjoyed it.

I wish I could ‐‐

I was gonna do a sequel to "The Good Shepherd."

But I still might do it.

I just have to get the money.

It's an uphill battle.

It's a killer.

Complicated. Yeah.

I always remember you came to my house

to pitch me to do the movie. Yes.

And I said to you ‐‐ this is really ‐‐

When you talk about using your persona

to, uh, uh, rear your children

or manipulate your children,

uh, uh, that worked on me.

I was in ‐‐ I was with you ‐‐

I always tell people this ‐‐

and you came to my house.

And I said, "So, how did you manipulate your weight?"

Yeah. 'Cause you said to me,

"Lose the weight," 'cause I'm gonna have ‐‐

"and then put the weight back on."

And I said to you, uh, "How would you do it?"

And you sat at my house

and you looked at me and you went...

"I just did it, Alec.

I just did it.

I didn't think about it. You just do it.

You gotta do it, Alec.

You gotta do it. You gotta do it."

I remember thinking to myself, "Oh, God,"

you know, "the moment has arrived.

I can't disappoint Robert De Niro." Yeah.

That was the best dietary program I had ‐‐

my fear of disappointing you.

If it works, that's it.

[ Laughs ]

But ‐‐ But ‐‐ But when you do, uh ‐‐

"Raging Bull" is obviously a vivid example.

There's a lot of physical manipulation you do,

and you have to maintain that throughout the film,

no doubt, correct?

Yeah. Until you transition?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, are you ‐‐

are they wrapping you at 6:00

and you're going to a gym every night,

or what was...?

Well, when I was doing the lighter stuff,

I would, uh ‐‐ I would work out every day in the gym

based on, you know, for what ‐‐

When I did the older, overweight stuff,

I just let myself go. Right.

Um, and, uh, it's hard, because getting back ‐‐

you know, the ‐‐ I gained 60 pounds.

If I lo‐‐ the first 40 are easy.

You go back to your old eating habits.

The last 20 are always the hardest. Yeah.

And, uh, so, that's where the real discipline comes in.

Do you find that that's something

that's changed in moviemaking, uh,

even to a modest degree,

where there was time

and there was a deliberation about what you did

in some of these earlier films.

And as years have gone by, there's less time,

'cause time ‐‐ people are in a bit of a hurry.

They're always in a hurry.

You ‐‐ You ‐‐ You ‐‐ You just have to ‐‐

if you're in a position to make them wait

and ‐‐ and ‐‐ and set it up properly ‐‐

Like with "Raging Bull," Marty and I,

uh, the whole thing, the whole agreement

was that we would shoot the first part

then take the break for the gaining of the weight.

There was one in between thing

where I had to be 15, 20 pounds, sort of out of shape

but still in and out of ‐‐ of ‐‐ of ‐‐ of fighting.

So, we did that.

Uh, and then just, uh, set a certain amount of time ‐‐

three and a half months, three months, whatever ‐‐

whatever I could gain until that point.

We set that up that way.

And you can do that today if somebody wants to.

It's just that you have to ‐‐

Build it in. If you commit to doing it,

it'll ‐‐ it'll be, uh ‐‐

uh, it'll happen.

You're the one that told me you could get down to 155 pounds.

Where'd I get it? What, did I pull it out of the [bleep] air?

Jake: I don't know if I'm gonna make it down to 155.

I'm not gonna make it to 160.

And on top of that,

you signed me for a fight at 155.

And if I don't make the 155, I lose $15,000.

Joey: That's right. Oh!

You supposed to be a manager!

You're supposed to know what you're doin'!

I just want to go off for a minute.

You do the best impression of me and Joe Pesci.

You're great, man.

I gotta tell you. Well, that's a real ‐‐ Wow.

I get a big kick out of that anytime ‐‐ Glad we got that on camera.

Wow! I get a big kick out of you.

And when you did the thing

that made fun of us in "The Godfather" thing

with me and Al and Jimmy Caan. Oh, yeah.

No, it was great. I couldn't believe it. I was watching.

No, you were, like, hysterical.

I'm ‐‐ I'm susceptible to everything.

Everybody else is susceptible about you.

And that is like ‐‐

I'm ‐‐ I'm ‐‐ I'm perfectly capable

of projecting a lot of things on you

that may or may not be true.

Right, right.

And one of them is that you have, you know,

this tremendous artistic nature,

and your father was an artist and your mother,

and you grew up in ‐‐ I don't want to say "Bohemian,"

but you were in an artistic environment... Yeah.

...in the old downtown

before they turned it into Madison Avenue

down there in Soho.

And, uh, you could live anywhere in the world.

And I'm sure you have a few homes around the world.

Uh, you've done fairly well.

And, uh, the, uh ‐‐ I've done okay.

You've done okay.

But you remain a New Yorker

and New York is your home state. Yeah.

Why is that?

New York is, uh...

it's just my home,

uh, uh, and it's...

I don't like to go to L‐‐

I don't mind going to L. A.

I like L. A. to visit, to work, and so on,

but I‐I don't like driving around.

I don't like ‐‐ It's all spread out.

It has no real definition.

Yeah. To me, it's like a suburb.

Yeah, and it's ‐‐ A chic suburb.

Yeah, so, I‐I don't have ‐‐

I just don't ‐‐

so, I'm happy always to get back to New York.

I love other big cities like Paris or London or Rome.

You know, um...

And you've traveled enough for your work,

I would imagine, from time to time. Yes. Yeah, yes.

So having a home base, this was what works for you.

Yeah, New York's the best.

Uh, I don't know if the city has changed

or the people who come here to live have changed,

but I feel like something's changed here

over the last few years.

Do you feel that way?

Yeah, I mean, it always changes.

The world changes.

New York changes.

You just gotta ‐‐

you know, we'll look back 30 years from now at this time

and say...

"The good old days." ...great things.

Yeah, "I wish we had that then." Right.

So, you just gotta ‐‐ you gotta roll with it

and make things as good as they can be.

If things need to be fixed, society‐wise,

blah, blah, and you know.

And you have how many kids?

Six. And have al‐‐ Do any of them ‐‐

have any of them shown, or any of them emerging,

uh, uh, with any talent in the business,

any curiosity about the business?

One of them. One of my twins.

Um, he's going to be 23 in ‐‐ in ‐‐ this October ‐‐

now, this month.

Um, yeah, h‐he was interested,

but now he's segueing into something with computers.

Uh‐huh. [ Laughs ]

He's a genius.

I like that. Smart guy.

Yeah, he is.

When did your kids ‐‐

at what age did they begin to realize who you were?

I‐I don't know. Maybe ‐‐

I have a 6‐year‐old ‐‐

my 6‐year‐old daughter is gonna be 7

in the next two months.

She's starting to realize, I guess.

I mean, for me ‐‐ What about you with your kids?

When I s‐‐ My kids this morning

were watching the movie "Boss Baby"

that I do the voice in. Yeah.

And when the "Boss Baby" character

does something really funny and silly,

my son today points to the camera and goes,

"Daddy, you're funny."

[ Laughs ]

How old ‐‐ how old is he?

Uh, he's 3. 3.

I got a 5‐year‐old, a 3‐year‐old,

a 2‐year‐old, and a 4‐month‐old.

My wife had four ‐‐

We had four kids in four and a half years.

Wow. Oh, boy. I‐I'm in a hurry.

I gotta get going. Yeah, no ‐‐ I ‐‐ yeah.

Well, you ‐‐ you got a lot ‐‐

But to me, I mean, some of the movies I did,

regardless of the violent or intense content they had,

I might not show 'em ‐‐ show them to my kids.

Yeah, of course. Well, I might not show 'em to 'em

'cause they weren't very good movies,

quite frankly. Yeah.

In your case, that's not true.

When do you decide your kids are ready to fully embrace

the Robert De Niro filmography?

Well, I always threatened them.

"I'm gonna show you 'Cape Fear' if don't behave yourself."

Listen. They hear you in the other room going,

[ Imitates De Niro's voice ] "Counselor..."

Max: Counselor!

Come out, come out wherever you are...

[ Sultry jazz plays ]

♪♪

You know that game you and Joe Jaros played, Tegwar?

How'd you play it?

Tegwar? Mm‐hmm.

You don't know how to play Tegwar?

Spell it.

T‐E‐G‐W‐A‐R.

Stands for "The Exciting Game Without Any Rules."

No rules?

No rules at all?

There's a sweetness to you.

There's a tenderness to you

in some of the early films.

And then, all of a sudden, you're a different person.

And I'll sit there, and I'll say to myself ‐‐

in my mind, I sketch somebody.

I say, "This is a person that walks this way."

Mm‐hmm. "They talk this way."

I think of the externalization

of ‐‐ of ‐‐ of ‐‐ of a certain list of characteristics.

And then, I do an impersonation

of a man that doesn't even exist.

And people say to me, "Well, which one is you?"

And I say the same thing to you.

"Do all those people live in you or none of them?"

Is it all creation to you?

Yeah, I always say that, in every character,

you have to make it your own.

And, uh...

And, so, there's always part of you

or a ‐‐ a part of ‐‐ a part of you in that,

which you draw on.

Otherwise, it's not gonna be specific

and it's not gonna have ‐‐ it's not gonna have impact.

There's a part of you that's a gangster?

Yeah. In some ways, yeah.

[ Both laugh ]

In which way?

I understand the mentality,

let's put it that way. You do?

We all do. A lot of people do.

But, uh, I don't want to get off on, uh, uh, uh ‐‐

on other things.

But we have a president

who thinks he's a gangster, so...

We're gonna get into that, by the way. Yeah.

We'll ‐‐ We'll touch on that.

Are there kinds of movies that you don't want to do?

Uh...

For any price. ...I don't know.

When they come, I'll know if I don't ‐‐

or they're not well written,

the character's not well written,

the story's not well written,

it's not written from anybody

who has any understanding of those ‐‐

that world, the experience, the characters ‐‐

so, they're writing ‐‐ they don't know.

So, if they don't know, how am I gonna know?

Unless I do the research, which I do.

It's always nice

when you have strong, solid writing

coming from somewhere that people know.

They come ‐‐ It comes from an experience

that these people have actually had.

And that's what's coming out in the writing.

Now, um, there's a person I think about,

one of the great leading men

and matinee idols of movie history

who, when he was young and was starting,

uh, a cadre of Hollywood men

came to him and said,

"You belong to us

and your career is ours and you are ours

and that's how invested in you we are.

And we can't have you running around

doing Suntory whiskey commercials

and chasing a dollar doing projects

we don't want you ‐‐ your movie career.

So, you're gonna give us your money,

and we're gonna invest your money for you."

Wow. And they made him a rich man.

Wow.

And you have been very successful in business.

You know, you don't come from

a successful line of businessmen.

No, I mean ‐‐ How did Robert De Niro ‐‐

Did you just meet people who ‐‐?

No, well, I ‐‐ I, uh ‐‐ I just ‐‐

You know, like, with Nobu, it was, um ‐‐

I had ‐‐ I had, uh, dinner there.

I was brought ‐‐ brought there

by a director friend, uh, one time many ‐‐

over 25 years ago or something.

And, uh, I told Nobu,

"You ever want to open a restaurant in New York,

just let me know."

And we had already opened Tribeca Grill.

And, uh, so I had some ‐‐

you know, some credibility, if you will,

as far as just being part of that whole thing,

my partner, Drew Nieporent, and I.

And, uh, so then, eventually Nobu said,

"Okay," came around, this and that.

And that's how that started. Right.

So then I saw that we were always being asked

to be in either a certain building complex

or in a hotel.

And I'm saying ‐‐

And I realized it when I was at the Hard Rock in San Diego.

We're going to the Hard Rock to do an opening of a Nobu,

and then they're asking me questions

about the Hard Rock.

And I'm saying,

"What am I answering questions about the Hard Rock for?"

Yeah. "I should be answering questions about Nobu.

And what are we here for?"

But we were there. So, we were committed.

But, uh, th‐‐

Eventually, you wanted to own the hotel

that Nobu was in. Well, yeah.

If we're lucky enough

to have people who were so interested,

and they want to put us in their place

in order to give them a cache or credibility,

why are we not doing that ourselves?

At least trying?

So ‐‐ And the guys who ran that hotel, they ‐‐

eventually, we got them to be our hotel people,

and they're great.

So, um, that's how it started.

And we just said,

"Just say ‐‐ Tell the partners

that we don't want to just have a restaurant.

We want to have a hotel with a restaurant in it."

You want to own it all. That's all.

And we don't even own it.

We just run it. I mean, it's, uh ‐‐ Right.

But it's better than the other situation.

But all this myriad of business things you're involved with

have gone quite well. Yes.

Things have gone quite well.

And did ‐‐ did ‐‐ did that in any way,

even just as a thought ‐‐

'Cause I know a lot of people who ‐‐

the ‐‐ the ‐‐

the kind of nomadic nature of moviemaking

and running around and going around ‐‐

You could just stay home now and not have to really work.

Well ‐‐

Did it influence your career?

Did you sit there and go,

"I want to work less now"

'cause you don't need to work? I like working,

especially if it's something really special and great.

I, um ‐‐ I‐I don't mind that.

I‐I, um ‐‐

Uh...

But I am thinking of the future.

You know, these things

will enable me to live comfortably ‐‐

And take care of your kids.

Yeah, and take care of the family,

the kids and all ‐‐ mainly.

Um, so, I'm fortunate.

You seem like somebody

that a family is very, very important to you.

Mm‐hmm. Yeah. Was there a time when you were working,

were you less in the lives of your older children

than you wanted to be?

My older ‐‐ yes.

Um ‐‐ Like everybody.

It was ‐‐ Yeah, like everybody.

I mean, these days,

I always find a way to get back on weekends,

even from L. A., you know? Yeah.

From Europe, it's a little harder.

You come every couple of weeks.

But that's ‐‐ I don't have that many things

going on that far away, though.

Right. Uhh ‐‐

But you decided to have kids later.

Well, I had my ‐‐ You did another round.

Yeah, another round ‐‐ another ‐‐ and another round.

Your youngest is how old now? 6.

Gonna be 7. Yeah.

But she's, uh, a wonderful miracle.

She's, uh, a miracle, you know?

[ Sultry jazz plays ]

♪♪

What I care about is the direction of this country.

And what I'm very, very worried about

is that it might go in the wrong direction.

You know, I have said things politically

that I might have said them differently

or ‐‐ or ‐‐ or ‐‐ or ‐‐ or left them unsaid entirely.

[ Chuckles ] You know, I wanted to be the liberal

that could throw a punch. Yes.

And, uh, you know, it hasn't always gone

the way I hoped it would go.

And I find people, uh, who ‐‐

I respect people now who have ‐‐

have gone all those years and had great success,

whether they were actually great actors,

and their acting is what made the movie great or not.

Yeah. It didn't really matter.

But a lot of those people, they kept their mouth shut.

Yeah. And they just said,

"You want to ‐‐ You want to know me, you want to see me,

you stand in line, you buy a ticket,"

now you download, whatever.

They don't give their opinions.

And lately, you have been giving your opinion.

And you didn't seem that way before.

What changed?

I, um...

I'm so offended by this person, um,

and by the Republicans in general

and how they've behaved,

and we see it with the Kavanaugh thing

going on right now.

And when I see him,

I know what he is,

and he knows what he is

'cause everything he says about other people ‐‐

"You're a loser. You're a this. You're a that" ‐‐

is everything he's saying about himself.

It's ‐‐ He's so transparent.

He's projecting.

He thinks he's on "The Apprentice."

And that show made him...

It tricked people. ...tricked people into thinking

that he actually knows what he's talking about. That he's a crack executive.

Yeah. 'Cause, you know,

Lorne Michaels called me and said,

"Do you want to play Trump on 'SNL'?"

And I said, "Of course I don't want to play Trump on 'SNL'."

W‐What's more of a dead end? Yeah.

"Oh, God, I mean, I‐I got so many other things

I want to do with my life right now."

And, of course, as everyone can imagine,

he said, "It's three shows.

It's three shows in late September into October,

then the election's gonna come and he's gonna be gone,"

and then the unthinkable happened.

But I will say that, as New Yorkers, we know ‐‐

People would always ask me, "What is he like?"

And I'd say that, "If you were a New Yorker

who was out and about

and involved in the culture of the city

and the life of the city,

he was a very drive‐by presence."

He'd come to the event,

quick, quick photo‐op with the wife, leave.

He was never a tablemate at a dinner.

You didn't really get to know him.

No. But I think it's interesting

when I saw you start to get ‐‐

uh, boil over, if you will... Yeah.

...I thought, "You hadn't done that before."

No. I‐I never ‐‐

I never, uh ‐‐

[ Sighs ]

I've just never seen anything like it. Right.

A‐And, uh, I've seen a lot in this world

in the years that I've been around,

but this is total, uh ‐‐ totally surreal.

And, uh, I felt that I have to say something.

Whatever I can say, whatever influence I can have,

I don't know.

But you know, just, it's, uh ‐‐

it's infuriating, this guy.

Um...

And I know now it's, "We got to do something."

'Cause I get mad, I say ‐‐

I call him the names that I've called him ‐‐

but now, we gotta ‐‐ we gotta do something.

Yeah. That's over.

We gotta move forward. Right.

And that's how I feel now.

That's how I felt.

To just get us back to normal.

To normal.

Normal can be Republicans, Democrats,

see‐sawing between lower taxes, lower regulation,

higher taxes, more social programs.

Whatever we think is a traditional American key

that we're playing in. Yeah.

But what we have now is not normal.

I, uh ‐‐ I saw, uh, Jeff Flake, uh,

at the Global Citizens thing the other day

at Central Park.

And I‐I said, uh, "I don't know if" ‐‐

however I said it, I said, "You're an American.

You're a hero.

What you've done is heroic."

And that's a guy with feelings.

He's actually, uh, conflicted.

And you could see it with the ladies in the elevator.

That... Painful.

And he ‐‐ I don't understand why

some of these Republicans are not saying,

"I'm out of here.

Let me go into private practice.

I'm a ‐‐ I'm a big shot in my community.

I'll get a job. I'll get paid well ‐‐

better than I do in government, probably ‐‐

and yet, I stay and say,

'Well, I'm staying there to keep an eye on the government

'cause we don't want it to go crazy.'"

And I understand that logic.

But you ‐‐ there's a point that ‐‐

and many of these people who are now with Trump

are gonna be tainted for the rest of their lives.

They are not gonna be ‐‐

people are not gonna want to be around ‐‐

If they really stick with him. Yeah.

They think they want to be with him,

and it's gonna make them give them something,

but they are paying such a price... They will.

...uh, making a deal with the devil.

It's ‐‐ It's scary.

[ Sultry jazz plays ]

♪♪

[ Speaking Italian ]

Your career ‐‐ I get a little choked up.

Your career is indelible to people.

The work you've done and the artistry...

...the example it is for people who are actors,

that dedication and that work you did,

you know, it just ‐‐ it lives forever.

You can't stop seeing those movies.

You can't stop seeing "Taxi Driver,"

"King of Comedy," "Godfather," you name it.

The goal in life is to give one performance

that's a great performance ‐‐ in a great movie.

A great performance in a great movie.

And you've done many of them, many of them.

And do you have real pride about that?

Do you ever sit there and go,

"Yeah, it's ‐‐

On an artistic level, it's gone pretty well"?

Do you feel that way?

Uh, yeah, well, I don't know.

I‐I thank you for saying that.

You're gonna make me cry.

I'm serious. Yeah.

But no, no, but that's very nice of you.

Thank you. Incredible.

You know, and some of the movies I know ‐‐

the whole thing that I feel about movies

like the movie that Marty and I just did,

"The Irishman," or "I Heard You Paint Houses,"

is that that is a special film

that we took many years to finally make

and took a lot of work to do.

And no matter how it's received, whatever ‐‐

and I used to tell Marty that about the earlier movies,

you know, like "Raging Bull" or ‐‐

"No matter what, it's gonna be remembered.

It's gonna be remembered 'cause it's special."

That I know.

What it does, who knows?

But that I know.

'Cause I think that ‐‐

like, for me, I always tell people,

"If I do a movie" ‐‐

and I make a lot less movies than I used to ‐‐

but when I would make movies, you know, years ago,

I'd light one off the other.

I was always shooting movies in the '90s,

one after the other, and beyond.

And I'd shoot movies,

and you gotta stay in that kind of idle gear,

you know what I mean?

My favorite line is Pacino, who said to me ‐‐

he's in the car ‐‐

and he's in the c‐‐ [ Chuckles ]

Pacino's in the car.

He told me ‐‐ He's in the car with his driver.

And the guy ‐‐ Let's say that the guy's name is Tommy.

And the guy said, "How was your weekend, Al?"

And Al would say, "Oh! I had a good weekend!

You know, I, uh ‐‐

I relaxed, I stayed quiet.

I did this, I did this, I did that."

He said, "How 'bout you, Tommy?"

And the guy ‐‐ I couldn't remember that story,

but it was basically, the guy says,

"My mother died."

And Al said to me, in his mind, he thought,

"Oh, I can't know that right now."

[ Laughs ]

Like, "I gotta go do the movie.

I can't have anything blow th‐‐

I can't have any winds blow my sail off the course..."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. "...of where I gotta stay."

So, when I would do movies, I'd be in my trailer ‐‐

Uh‐huh. I wasn't reading a book,

'cause that kind of made me sleepy.

I'd watch movies.

"Scarface," "Goodfellas,"

movies that kind of get you revved up,

you know what I mean?

It inspires people.

You sit there and go, "That's what I'm aiming for.

I want to make a movie ‐‐

I want to know that I have a chance.

And even at best,

what we're gonna have is mediocrity.

But I want to believe at the onset

we have a chance to make something great." Yeah.

Who know ‐‐ Who cares how well it does?

But we want to make something great.

And, uh, I watch these films of yours

to remind me what ‐‐ that's the goal.

That's the goal. That's the goal.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, Alec. That's very...

Thank you. ...sweet of you, buddy.

Thank you.

[ Sultry jazz plays ]

This is my favorite story. Yeah.

Danny Aiello is doing a movie with my ex‐wife.

And he's in the wings

and he's listening to opera on a headset

and he's singing. Yeah.

And Betty Bacall shouts out,

"Would you shut up?!"

She yells at him

and embarrasses him in front of everybody.

And he takes the headset, and he goes,

"Are you talkin' to me?

How dare you talk to me like that!

You no‐good [bleep] [bleep].

You [bleep] [bleep]."

He goes crazy.

My wife comes home from the movie.

We're in some hotel in Paris.

And my wife's a little Daisy May,

if you know what I mean.

She goes, "Well, it was so crazy,

and Danny was screaming

and Betty Bacall was screaming.

It was a big mess, and they sent us all home."

Ring, ring. The phone rings.

"Danny, is that you?"

"That no‐good [bleep] [bleep]," he's screaming.

"Well, calm down, Dan‐‐"

He hangs up the phone.

The next day, we're walking along the Champs‐Elysées.

My wife goes, "It's Danny and his wife.

Oh, my goodness."

And he walks up, I go, "Are you all right?"

He goes, "Yeah, I'm all right. I'm all right. I'm all right.

It was tough. It was so hard ‐‐

because that no‐good [bleep] [bleep] [bleep]."

And he goes from zero to 60. He goes nuts.

Yeah.

Cut to I'm with the prop guy.

And Jimmy says to me, he goes,

"Let's go to Taormina to have dinner."

And we go there and we're having dessert.

All the men are bent over their food,

shoving it in their mouth.

And the women are leaning on the back of the chair doing their nails.

They don't even touch their food.

And the men are just wolfing down

the ‐‐ the ‐‐ the ‐‐ the linguine.

And the guy walks up to the table and goes,

"Uh, Jimmy, Frank would like you

to come over to the table with Alex ‐‐

Alex Baldwin ‐‐

to come over and talk to him."

And he goes, "Yeah, we're just gonna finish our coffee."

He goes, "Frank would like you

to come over to the table now, Jimmy,

and talk to him."

We go over to the table, and I swear to God,

this guy goes, "You Alex Baldwin?"

And I'm like...

"Yeah, I heard‐a good things about you.

I heard your wife. I heard she's good people.

That she stood up for Danny

when he was having that argument with ‐‐"

"That no‐good [bleep] [bleep] [bleep]!" [ Laughs ]

And I thought, "Oh, my God,

these people and their resentments."

I mean, they just ‐‐

they live forever, you know what I mean?

[ Sultry jazz plays ]

Tell me why I shouldn't

throw this drink in your bitch‐ass face?

You sure this was a good idea?

Are you sure you want this company?

'Cause you'd never get up off the floor, bitch.

[ Grunts ]

Look, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

She was talking trash.

What do you expect?

We made up a verb, uh, based on your name.

To "Taraji" someone or to get "Taraji‐ed"... [ Laughs ]

...means, uh, you ‐‐

people get straightened out.

Really? Yeah, your character really, uh ‐‐

and we're gonna get to that later... [ Laughs ]

...'cause we've watched a bit of "Empire"... Mm‐hmm.

...but I wanted to begin by saying that, uh,

you grew up in... Washington, D. C.

In D. C. Mm‐hmm.

And what was acting, movies,

theater, the arts in your childhood?

What was it like in your childhood?

Um... What'd you watch, see, like?

I just remember

the first time my aunt took me to a Broadway play.

And it was "The Wiz."

And I just ‐‐ I was so little,

my feet couldn't touch the ground.

I was sitting in the chair like this.

And I just remember

looking up at that stage and those lights,

and I was just addicted. Mm‐hmm.

I don't know.

I just knew that's where I belonged.

How old were you? I had to be, like, 5 or 6.

And you really felt it then? I felt it.

I felt it.

I just ‐‐ Something about it.

I just wanted to be up there.

I wanted to be Dorothy.

I just ‐‐ Something about the stage.

And then, my dad picked up on it

when I was very young.

I was always just this rambunctious kid.

I was just outgoing...

A lot of energy. ...big personality.

I wasn't afraid to sing or do a poem or cheer.

And my family would sit on the sofa

and just let me entertain them.

I was like, "baby magic."

And, um, my dad saw it,

and he just spoke it into me.

He'd say to me,

"You're gonna win an Oscar one day."

He would always tell me I was gonna win an Oscar

for portraying Diana Ross.

I think he thought I looked like Diana Ross

all my life, when I was little.

And so, um, he would tell me that.

"You're gonna get an Oscar. You're gonna win an Oscar.

You're the greatest actress alive.

You're incredible."

He would speak that into me.

And before he passed,

I do believe he saw

all of what's happening in my life,

because I remember when "Hustle & Flow" came out,

I was like, "Daddy, this movie is amazing."

And he'd look, and I said,

"And all the press

and they're talking Oscar and this."

And this is when he found out he had cancer

and he didn't have long to live.

Something about people that are in transition,

they're really connected.

You know, they're connected to a higher source.

And he looked off into the distance,

like he sees what's happening now,

and he said, "Baby, this is only the beginning."

Yeah.

Um...when was the first time you get up there,

and not even professionally, even as an amateur,

when you get out there and you start to perform?

Oh, there were two times I can remember.

Kindergarten.

Um, we were graduating, and they were like, "Oh."

They picked some of us to sing, um,

"The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow."

And I remember, I got up on the stage,

and I did something and the audience laughed.

And I was like,

[ Whispering ] "Oh, my God. They love me."

"Gotta write that down. What did I do?"

And I was like, "Look at the power."

No, it just was the power.

Just like, I could do this, and they laughed again.

And then, I sang loud, and they stood up and clapped.

And I was like, "I love this feeling."

And then, I remember, again, it was the fifth grade ‐‐

I will never forget that my teacher ‐‐

and I don't even know if she's still alive,

Mrs. Lane ‐‐

she put me on the stage,

and I just came to life.

I did.

And then, again, in the seventh grade.

These are the times I remember,

until I got really serious about it.

All the way up until I auditioned

for the school of fine arts,

Duke Ellington in Washington, D. C.

So, they have a school that's a public school there...

Yes. ...for people who don't know,

in their public school system... Yes.

...that's a performing arts school,

like in New York? Performing arts, mm‐hmm.

The old performing arts here

that was the movie "Fame" ‐‐ "Fame."

Which made me want to go!

Which made everybody want to go. [ Laughs ] Right!

Believe me, everybody wanted to be... Right.

...one of those people. I didn't get accepted, though.

You applied to Performing Arts in New York?

Uh, no. This was high school.

Oh, Duke ‐‐ Duke ‐‐ Duke Ellington. High school.

I auditioned. You didn't get in?

I did not get in.

And that devastated me.

I thought I didn't have talent.

Bet they feel pretty bad now, don't they?

Yeah, and I go back and talk to the kids. Yeah.

It's actually a good story, you know,

because no one wants to hear how easy you had it.

You can't help anybody that way.

So, you're in D. C. till you're how old? Ooh, 26.

That's when ‐‐ Did you go to college when you were there?

I did. I went to Howard University...

You went to Howard? ...graduated Theater Arts program.

What kind of a program did they have at Howard?

Amazing. Amazing.

Actually, my sophomore year, we did "Dreamgirls."

A producer from Shouson Theatre in Hong Kong

just happened to be in D. C., came to see us.

Paid for our entire crew, cast, production, wardrobe, set

to be flown out to Hong Kong.

We performed there.

Sold out shows every night

to the point where there was

a professional production next door of "42nd Street."

They closed early.

You had a baby when?

In my junior year.

Your junior year? I was 24.

All right.

You were going to school full‐time?

Yes. And then...

I was going to school full‐time... ...surprise.

...and I was working two jobs.

An unplanned baby. Yeah.

Surprise baby.

Surprise!

As life will surprise you sometimes.

I had four unplanned babies in a row.

It's okay. It's okay.

Are you a good dad? It's okay.

That's all that matters.

As long as you take care of your responsibilities,

who cares, you know?

Am I a good dad? [ Laughs ]

I think ‐‐ I think I'm a good dad. Yeah!

I think I'm a good dad.

My ki‐‐ I get along great with my kids.

Everything's great. Mm‐hmm.

I connect with my kids on this beautiful level

until my wife walks in the door. Right.

Then they drop me like I'm nothing. Of course.

[ Laughs ]

But, uh, you had a child,

and what was it like for you so ‐‐

I mean, because a lot of women,

there are a lot of actresses,

and extraordinarily successful actresses like you,

there's one or more children in their life,

and that affects...

We were talking to Kerry Washington. Mm‐hmm.

And we've talked to a lot of different people

about that whole idea,

about how they worked that into the show or don't.

Mm‐hmm. And when you had a child,

did you sit there and say to yourself,

"Oh," you know?

Or that it didn't deter you.

The, "I'm still gonna go for it."

I don't know.

I did ‐‐ It didn't deter me.

I wasn't afraid.

Of course, there was this moment ‐‐

Let's just be honest.

I'm 24. I'm still in college.

"Oh, my God, what does this mean?"

When I searched deep down inside,

I was born to be a mother.

You know, I just knew ‐‐

I don't know. I wanted my baby.

And I felt like, deep down,

that my child was going to, um, motivate me?

Mm‐hmm.

Not that I wasn't already motivated, but ‐‐

and that's exactly what he did.

Once I had him,

I got out of that relationship with his dad

because it wasn't good.

Now that I have this kid

looking at me with these hungry eyes,

like, "What's next, Mama?"

You have to have a plan.

You have to have something.

That's gave me the goal

to pack up and go out to California

and pursue my dreams, because I was like,

"If I sit around and sit on my dreams,

what is that teaching me child?"

How old were you and how old was your son

when you went out to California?

I was 26, and he was 1 going on 2.

And California was something you'd kind of set up

and there were friends and there were people

that are like a net

to catch you when you landed?

Or did you go out there cold, cold, cold?

No, I had a cousin who was there.

And I had my little cousin who I inspired to be an actor,

and he booked a television show out there.

So my dad and her were in cahoots ‐‐

his mother.

And my dad was like, "She's still here,

and I don't know why.

She can't catch fish on dry land."

He sent me out there with $700 in my pocket.

That's all I had. Is Will Smith your cousin?

Is that the cousin that was doing a TV show out there?

I'm kidding. No! [ Laughs ]

No! I'm just ‐‐ I'm joking.

No, um, it ‐‐

So, I had actually, literally two months

to get on my feet.

And I know how to work and earn.

Like I said, I was in college,

and I worked two jobs.

So, I know how to pay the rent. Mm‐hmm.

And, um, I just needed to get stable.

You end up finding that's an instinct people have.

Yeah, that's ‐‐ that's always my instinct.

It's an instinct people have and other people don't have.

Yeah, I can survive, baby.

No matter what.

Do what you gotta do. Always have a plan.

You find a hole to get into. Yep.

♪ You know it's hard out here for a pimp ♪

♪ When he trying to get this money for the rent ♪

♪ For the Cadillacs and gas money spent ♪

♪ Will have a whole lot of bitches jumpin' ship ♪

Shelby: That's it right there. That's the money take.

Empire was my destiny, Cookie! It was my legacy!

You, you, you, you! Everything is you!

Yes, 'cause this is about me!

Oh, okay, so I didn't help ‐‐

Empire was mine! I didn't help!

I didn't help?!

Yeah, what did you do?

I mean, where were you most of the damn time?

You weren't there when I built the damn thing.

By the time you got back,

Empire was a multi‐billion‐dollar business.

You have a very short memory,

"Mr. Dwight I Can't Do Music, Please See My Colors!"

[ Laughs ] So, when you do the show, uh,

how would you say the character has changed ‐‐

again, what I love about television

is the opportunity for that change. Yes.

How has she changed

as you're getting into season 5?

Oh, well, she's totally evolved

into this corporate mind.

You know, she can't be Cookie from jail, from the streets,

slapping bitches everywhere.

You know, she ‐‐ she has to impress board members.

She has to hold corporate meetings.

So, she's a very reserved Cookie.

But don't push her.

That other Cookie's still ‐‐ I won't, I promise.

[ Laughs ] I'm gonna come on and do a guest spot.

Please do! I just want to be slapped by you.

Oh, my God! I just want to be slapped by you.

And that was me.

Like, that was never written, the slap.

But I'm a mother,

and, you know, moms do that.

She has three boys. Come on.

That young one needs to be pounced.

[ Laughs ]

Then, of course, we saw the video,

uh, uh, of your colleague,

especially one guy,

one of them that plays your son,

is always sneaking up on you with a camera

and filming you.

Jussie Smollett.

Yeah. And then you have ‐‐

what I love was it's the same routine.

You always say the same phrase.

[ As Taraji P. Henson ] "I hate you."

[ Normal voice ] Wham! Yeah.

And then you clock him. [ Laughing ] Yes,

because he catches me...

He keeps doing it all the time.

...in my most vulnerable moments.

Like, "This is a private moment, Jussie."

It's actually kind of fun, though.

He's like a little brother.

It's a fun set? It is a very fun set.

Now, when you're on a show like that

which has a premier TV cast, black or white,

but it's a largely black cast,

is there a sufficient amount

of black and/or female directors, as well?

Absolutely. There are?

Yep. Very diverse.

Lee makes ‐‐ makes sure of that?

Very diverse set.

He still runs the show? Yeah.

Well, you know, he's ‐‐ he's ‐‐

Doing a thousand things?

He's like the wiz behind the curtain.

Right. You know. [ Laughs ]

Yeah, no, I understand. Yeah, yeah.

But it's still his show. Mm‐hmm.

It's ‐‐ It's still ‐‐ And there's a diversity in the ‐‐

in the crew? Absolutely.

And in the producing and writing? Yep.

And so ‐‐ that satisfies you?

Yes, I love it. Because I always ask people the same thing,

which is ‐‐ I mean ‐‐‐

and other people who I've talked to,

you know, in podcasts, on the radio, or TV shows,

they, very rightly, uh, uh, reminded me

that, you know, they don't speak for all black people...

Mm‐hmm. ...when you ask them about their experiences.

But which do you find harder,

being a woman or being an African‐American,

in terms of your acting career?

Which is more difficult for you?

Hmm...

It's just a double whammy.

Women have it hard.

That's the exact phrase we used yesterday.

It's a double whammy!

We said, "It's a double whammy."

[ Laughs ] It's a double whammy!

You really feel that way? Absolutely.

You don't feel one's harder than the other?

It's a double whammy.

Um, because I have white friends in the business,

and they complain about not getting paid.

You know, they're getting paid more than me. Right.

But, um, they still have a beef, you know?

Yes, a black woman

is definitely at the bottom of the totem pole,

but I'm ‐‐ I'm trying not to take that on. Yeah.

Because if you take that on,

then that's what it is gonna be.

I just ‐‐ It's just that

I don't give my energy into what's hard.

I give my energy into how do we fix it.

And how do we fix it is you just keep working.

You keep working until things change.

And I keep being vocal about it or whatever.

But I'm not gonna take that on

because Hollywood has been very good to me.

I've worked.

I'm a millionaire.

And I come from Southeast D. C. from the hood.

Um, I'm not making excuses.

I'm not saying, "It was great,"

but I think the work that I'm doing

is making changes.

Um, and that's what I focus on, instead of how hard it is.

Because if you keep putting ‐‐

if you keep saying how hard it is,

"Oh, it's so hard, it's so hard,"

it's going to be hard because that's all you see.

You have to see the light or be the light in the tunnel.

Are you glad you did the show? I am.

You know why?

Because Cookie made me an international star.

And who knew television would do that?

Uh, now, you're getting married?

Yes, I am! You ‐‐ You ‐‐ You are.

Yes, and I wish my dad was here to meet him

'cause he would love him.

Ugh. Well ‐‐

Do you mind me asking you about that?

No. Where'd you meet him?

I met him ‐‐

actually, my makeup artist, Ashunta,

did the love‐connection thing.

And I suck at those.

I'm like, "Dude, please don't.

I will embarrass you."

Like, I'm not her.

And I don't know.

She just saw something in those eyes,

the same thing I saw when she showed me his picture,

and I was like...

And here we are, about to get married...

[Laughs] ...in Chicago.

What does he do?

He's an, um, ex‐NFL Super Bowl champ.

[ Laughs ]

He played for the Colts,

and, uh, I don't know if you remember

number 26 walking it tight

where he caught the ball, and they beat the Bears.

Uh‐huh. He caught the interception and ran it back...

Uh‐huh. ...and there was this whole, um, dispute

whether he was out of bounds or not. Uh‐huh.

Too late, he has the ring! Uh‐huh.

[ Laughs ]

And ‐‐ and ‐‐ and ‐‐

But you had never ‐‐

This is your first marriage?

First marriage ever.

You've never been married before?

Never married, never engaged.

Ooh! I was engaged once.

But it ‐‐ I just knew.

But he ‐‐ But what is his name again?

Kelvin Hayden.

So, Kelvin Hayden ‐‐

I mean, obviously, with a woman like you

who works as hard as you do,

he's gotta get you.

Oh, he does.

He gets you. He gets me.

You gotta go do what you gotta go do. Yeah.

"And at the end of the day, let's have dinner, Kelvin?"

Oh, God, yes.

He's so ‐‐ He knows you're busy.

He knows, and he understands.

And he likes to see me happy.

He knows acting makes me happy.

And I think he likes ‐‐ enjoy my work.

Yeah. I think he enjoys my work.

I wanted to say to you, um,

that I hope, um, you know,

for the sake of your audience,

on behalf of your audience

as well as all of the rest of us in the business,

that you keep your edge.

But I realize nothing in the world

could ever make you lose your edge.

Never. [ Laughs ]

It's limitless. It is.

Thank you. This was beautiful.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. I'm a big fan. [ Laughs ]

Thank you. And I of you.

Wish I had gotten to play with you on "30 Rock,"

you and Tina.

That was so ‐‐ Oh, I miss that job.

That was a fun job. That was a good job.

And, you know, I just worked with Tracey Morgan.

Could I tell you something? I love him.

Can I tell you something about...?

[ Sultry jazz plays ]

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

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