All language subtitles for confessionsofaparentkiller20251080pwebh264-skyfire_track3_eng[_27320]

(suspenseful music)

VIRGINIA: Dear Charlie,

apologies for not writing
back to you sooner.

I'm happy to open up to you,

and welcome the sentence
I'm about to receive.

I've made so many mistakes in my life

through deception, secrecy,
and self-sabotage.

The worst of all is the crime
that I killed my parents.

I knew, even as a child,

that I should not have been
a part of that family.

And I thought about killing myself

before I thought about killing
my parents.

I thought that I had no choice.

I do not wish to receive any payments
for giving my side of events.

I would just like a chance to
have a say,

amongst all others.

(dramatic music)

REPORTER: A woman from Essex
has been charged

with killing two people
believed to be her parents.

The most unlikely person to be
a murderess.

No one really knew
too much about her, to be honest.

She was weird at school,
but not like murder your parents

and hide their bodies weird.

I kept on calling out for my father
to see if he was alive,

and part of me wanted him
to reply to me.

Four years ago, Ginny popped up.

After that, we didn't see
her parents anymore.

Killing your own parents
is extremely rare,

especially from a female.

What on earth drove her to
do something so appalling?

I felt emotionally desperate
and trapped.

I did not want to be stuck in misery.

For her to have done that,
something bad had happened,

something had driven her to it.

Something was going on
behind closed doors

that we just didn't know about.

She was a bit of a fantasist
with some of the things

that she used to say to us.

I was relieved in a huge way
that the deception was over.

You question whether
anything was true about her life.

I have no reason to lie now,
as there is no point.

The road that led me
to commit the crime

is one which I think should be got
first-hand.

I think it is important
to allow Virginia to give her say,

because I think the question
of why she did what she did

hasn't been answered.

What I don't know is how truthful
and honest she'll be.

(police siren wailing)

Ginny?

The footage of Virginia's arrest
is extremely unusual

because, first of all,

most perpetrators
don't want to incriminate themselves.

But this appears to be
the exact opposite

of what happens with Ginny.

Secondly, at no point
does she attempt to deny

murdering both of the parents.

And shockingly, she seems to have
no problem admitting

she continued living in the house
with their bodies.

And that begs the question, why?
Why did she do this?

(dramatic music)

REPORTER: Essex Police say a woman's
been arrested on suspicion of murder

after police were called
to Great Baddow near Chelmsford.

The force says officers responded to
concerns about the welfare

of two people, and an address
in Pump Hill yesterday afternoon.

I was the first journalist
on the ground.

And when I turned up at the scene,

there was an officer stood
guarding the entrance

to the back garden of the property.

And one stood at the
front door as well.

And then there was a large police van
parked up on the front drive.

I'm Matt Lee.
I'm a reporter from Essex Live.

And as the only reporter
on shift that day,

I was sent by my editor
down to the scene.

Members of the public were wondering
what had gone on,

they were wondering who was involved,

they were wondering why
the police were all there.

Great Baddow's a quiet village
just outside Chelmsford.

It's a sleepy area.

Nothing really happens there.

The main feeling and emotion
was one of surprise.

(high tempo music)

I just turned the corner,

and there was police,

there was press,

there was people walking round
in white sort of zip-up suits

and masks and gloves.

I thought it was Ginny.

I was like, "Oh, my God.

Oh, my God, she's dead."

And I was dialling her number
and dialling her number,

I was like, "Oh, my God,
please be okay, please answer."

I was saying to people, I was going,
"Oh, my God,

what's happened? What's happened?"

And it wasn't till a little bit later

that people were saying...

she'd murdered someone.

REPORTER: A woman from Essex

has been charged with
killing two people

believed to be her parents.

Russell Hookey is in Chelmsford
for us.

A lot of details
still remain unclear, Russell.

Very much so.

This is the house behind me

where police have focused
their attention.

Thirty-five-year-old
Virginia McCullough

is charged with murdering
John and Lois McCullough,

her parents.

Neighbours here say all three
lived in this house.

When I turned up at the house,

it became clear to me that
there was far more to this story

than I'd initially suspected.

In the discussions I
had with neighbours,

it became clear quite early on

that it wasn't perhaps what
you might think of

as a loving conventional family.

It seemed that John,
Virginia's father,

was a university lecturer.

He occupied part of the house.

The rest of the family occupied
another part.

It seems this was a family
that functioned

but perhaps there wasn't
very much love

between him and his children.

He lived with his wife, Lois.

They had several daughters,

including one, Virginia,
who lived with them at home.

But there was no suggestion
that Virginia

had had prior contact
with the police.

So, there was this disconnect
between this seemingly

quiet daughter
who lived with her parents

and a supposedly
cold-blooded murderess.

I was shocked, absolutely shocked.

(dramatic music)

Because, well, John and Lois were
customers of ours for many years.

I'm Alan Thompson.

I've got an electronic shop
in Great Baddow.

And I've been here since the 1970s.

So, yeah, part of the furniture now.

John and Lois rented equipment
from us.

But I couldn't say I knew
much about them personally.

They were not...

people that you would call social.

Yeah, unusual customers,
yeah, yeah, yeah.

(dramatic music)

Lois used to come into the shop
once a month with her payment book

and make payments for the equipment.

Very serious, very quiet,

subdued, withdrawn.

Absolutely no casual talk at all.

I never managed to get her to smile

or have a conversation
about the family.

John was different.

He was a very curt, very brusque man.

I found him fairly impatient,
always in a hurry.

You'd say goodbye,
he wouldn't normally reply,

he'd just walk out.

I was aware there were four
or five daughters,

and I've heard rumours in the village
that it was a strict regime

at home for the girls.

And I think that's the reason
why they,

as soon as they could leave home,

did leave and make their own way.

I believe that Ginny
left home as well

and lived somewhere else,

I think in Chelmsford somewhere.

But for some reason came back
to live with her parents.

I don't know when.

In fact, walking past
her house one day,

I was surprised to see her there,
and not her parents.

Ginny was very easy to talk to.

A slightly unusual girl.

But since it's happened,

it's made me think, really,

that you don't know what people
are like in their private lives.

(high tempo music)

Ginny had moved away
when we first got the shop,

and then she moved back.

She started coming into the shop,

and we thought we knew her.

But obviously there was a different
Ginny that was running around.

- Alright, love?
- Yeah, alright. Do you want a bag?

My name's Paul.

I've been running the greengrocers
in Great Baddow for 22 years.

Ginny's mum would come
in quite regular,

never really spoke,

because she was quite a dowdy lady,

like with the floral dresses
and the cardigans,

and that's how we mainly
used to see her.

Never really saw the dad.

I think his name was John.
Never really saw him a lot.

And then about four years ago,
Ginny popped up.

And, you know, when you start...

when someone comes in
on a regular basis,

you start talking to them,

so we start finding out that
she's living around the corner

in her mum and dad's house.

And all of us here built up a rapport
with Ginny.

(upbeat music)

PAUL: She was a bit eccentric.

There was always something going on,

some sort of drama
or something or other.

She never really mentioned
her relationship with her parents.

She said that she was back there
to help her parents sell the house.

So, she was living there
for a period of time,

and she'd actually had
people round there

just to get it ready for selling.

After that, we didn't see
her parents anymore.

MATT: The arrest had been made
on 15th September,

but the information that we knew
at the time

was very limited from Essex Police.

We had no idea about the methods
in which she'd killed her parents

and where she had hidden them.

(high tempo music)

But then, quite quickly,
there was a picture circulating

of a trolley and a body bag
on top of it being removed.

So, we knew that they had been
kept within the property.

So, you are beginning to wonder

what sort of person
is Virginia McCullough going to be?

It was just a matter of days

before she was making
her first appearance in court.

Seeing her for the first time,

she was quite calm and
almost quite shy,

and she spoke only to
confirm her name.

There were very few details,

but we learnt for the very first time
the broad timeframe

in which Virginia was accused
of killing her parents.

We now knew that Virginia's parents
had not been seen

for nearly five years.

Suddenly, you're thinking,

"Wow, Virginia had kept this hidden
for such a long time."

I'm amazed that nobody picked up on

the demise
of Virginia's parents sooner.

There'll be people who will think,

"Do you know what,
I had a feeling something was wrong,

I hadn't seen the McCulloughs
for some time."

And they'll be wishing that
they'd spoken up.

But they didn't.

My name is Paul Maleary.
I'm a former Essex Police officer.

And for 30 years I served
within Essex,

and eight years I was on
the major investigation team.

As a young detective
in the early 1990s,

I would go to Baddow,
so, I know the area well

and I know the community
that actually reside there.

It is pure suburbia.

It is the sort of place that
you'd want to bring your kids up in.

These types of crime leave
many questions unanswered.

Could the community have done more?

The fact is, that these people
had been missing

for some considerable time.

(high tempo music)

But eventually,
the GP of the local surgery

raised the alarm that the McCulloughs
had failed to meet

several of their medical
appointments.

This was then passed on to
the local police

who then carried out the arrest.

The bodycam footage
is quite remarkable.

Virginia wasn't taken by surprise.

In fact, I would say that
she was almost relieved by the fact

that they'd gone in there.

And I find it really sad
that these people

have been in their home
dead for years.

ALAN: Still today I find it
difficult to comprehend or accept,

and it makes me think that

I should have been more questioning

about the sudden disappearance
of them.

When I'd last seen them?

I would think probably
before the first Covid lockdown,

and they were quite hale and hearty.

And then Ginny came into
the shop in '21

and said that the equipment
that we'd supplied to her parents,

she didn't need them anymore,
she wasn't using them.

So, I made an arrangement

for our lads to go round
and collect them.

So, they went round there...

and she'd got them just inside
the front door

and sort of more or less
handed them to them

and they brought them away.

Our technicians were
a little bit surprised

that they hadn't got to go
into the house to get them.

You know, they were just by
the door ready,

but that's the customer's
prerogative, isn't it?

The main thing, I suppose,

that seemed completely strange to me
was I'd say to her,

"How are your parents?"

And she'd say, "Oh, they're fine.
They've moved to Clacton."

(sinister music)

PAUL: When we'd ask
where her parents were,

she said, "Oh, they've
moved to Clacton.

They're having a lovely time."

And there was no reason for us
to disbelieve what she said.

Lots of people move away, you know?

We have it all the time.

So, we never questioned anything
about where her parents were.

ALAN: When she said that her parents
had just moved away,

I think I should have
asked her more...

but you wouldn't think that
you were chatting to a murderer.

(high tempo music)

She said they'd packed up
and they'd gone down

to stay with friends in Devon.

And then she'd said another time that

they were staying with people
in Kent.

She didn't talk about her parents
in any depth.

The only thing that
she really told me about them

was when she said that they were
"moving around",

and she was now in charge
of looking after the house,

and doing it up
and preparing it for sale.

She'd say, "Oh,
I've been painting all day,

and I'm doing this to the garden."

She was like telling me that it had
been surveyed,

and that it had real problems,
structurally.

And there was subsidence.

And she said that pipes were leaking,

some of her plug sockets had gone,

and she even said
that it could fall down in 20 years.

(suspenseful music)

She invited me round her home
a lot of times,

but she always cancelled.

She made it seem like it
wasn't particularly safe.

I certainly didn't think
it was because she was hiding

what she was hiding.

There was a huge amount of deception
perpetrated by Virginia

in order to cover up the fact that
she'd murdered her parents.

No one had seen them for some
considerable period of time.

And the local community
were being told by Virginia

that they were away on holiday,
or they had moved away.

But she's got a dilemma.

Here are the two bodies,
what am I going to do with them?

And the disposal of a dead body
is not an easy thing to do.

I'm Simon Dinsdale,

and I spent 27 years as a detective

with Essex Police.

So, in my experience,
the level of sophistication

of this hiding of the bodies,

I can't recall a case like it.

(sinister music)

We now know she'd purchased from
a well-known building supplier,

building materials,
breeze blocks and cement,

and she then built this mausoleum
around her father's body.

To answer about some of the materials
in the garden,

I said the garden wall
was being done.

I made a wooden and concrete
block-type enclosed structure

out of my father's original bed.

I put wood at either end
and extra blocks.

I told the next-door neighbour that
I was building a fireplace

to make an excuse for any noise.

She layered plastic
on top of the body,

and then over the top of that was
a blanket,

and she covered that with paintings
and pictures.

She's then rolled her mother's body
into a sleeping bag.

The following day,
I went upstairs and, while crying,

I moved my mother's body into
a four-door wardrobe.

I taped up the gaps in the wardrobe

to get rid of any remaining maggots
or flies

that had initially started to appear.

What Virginia did is staggering.

The concept that you could treat
your parents in that way,

first to murder them
and then just to hide them away,

is incredible.

What must she have been feeling
as she's walking round that house

knowing that her parents
are in the next room?

And the fact that she was able
to function like that

says a lot to her state of mind.

(sinister music)

What on earth drove her
to do something so appalling?

(up tempo music)

Killing your own parents in itself
obviously is extremely rare.

But what makes it really unique
about this case,

you've got a female perpetrator.

There's no history of violence
or offending,

and she's been in close proximity to
the bodies for almost five years.

My name is Dr Sohom Das.

I'm a consultant forensic
psychiatrist.

And I've psychiatrically analysed
several hundred defendants

who've committed a range
of violent offences.

For many murder cases,

you would expect the perpetrator
to get rid of the body

because they don't want
to incriminate themselves.

Ginny didn't do this.

She kept the bodies for
a long period of time.

So, what is that about?

Is that that she literally
couldn't get over the barrier

of doing it psychologically?

Or is it that she wanted to
keep them close

because she still felt
connected to them?

In a case like this,

I think the public's natural
inclination is to assume

there must be something very dark

and traumatic in her past.

And if I was instructed as an expert
in this case,

I would want to delve
into Virginia's past

to see if there were
any key incidents

or causes of psychological distress
and damage.

And one of the most important
and key factors is past trauma,

including childhood experiences.

(dramatic music)

I knew Ginny all the way through
infants and junior school,

and we were quite close
friends in Year 2

because we were placed
next to each other.

I kind of was aware
at the time that...

there was differences between us,

and, you know,
when you talk to grown-ups, they go,

"Oh, well, she's just a bit odd,
isn't she?"

Yeah.

She was weird at school,

but not like murder your parents
and hide their bodies weird.

When I first read that it was
definitely her,

it was definitely her house,
it was definitely a double murder,

and we didn't know the
timescale of it,

I immediately thought,

"Oh, my God."

I didn't even know
she still lived there.

I was so weirded out by it

because this is a kid
I went to school with

who I sat next to.

KIRSTY: She was odd.

I don't remember a lot of personality
from her.

BETHAN: I did get the overall feeling
through most of school

that there was bullying.

You know, when you just remember
picking up on people

- just not saying nice things.
- Teenagers are mean, though,

- ...aren't they?
- Yeah.

Even though she hung
around in our group,

there were people in our group
that would then,

like tor...like not torment her,
but like take the mick out of her.

I think she wanted to be friends
with people...

- Yeah.
- ...but she didn't always know how.

Like you couldn't really work out
who she was,

if that makes sense.

There was a time where she bought me
in a gift,

and it was like obviously things
she'd like nicked

from around the house.

And I remember kind of being like,
"Oh, thank you."

And like I was a kid,

I didn't really know
what was going on.

And I do remember that she was
a very gifting person.

And for that one year,
we were relatively close friends,

but we never got to have
any play dates.

It was always kind of
her parents wouldn't allow it.

Yeah, I remember when
we were at school,

she didn't really talk
about her parents.

I knew she was sort of
the youngest of the siblings

and her parents had had her
when they were quite a bit older.

I think even from quite a young age,

she was very closed down
about family.

I was quite aware,

even at a young age,
the way she spoke,

especially about her mum,

that it wasn't a great relationship.

Yeah, I just remember
her kind of saying,

"I don't like my mum,
I don't like my mum at all."

I mean, that's fair enough
as teenagers,

but this was quite a lot younger.

So, yeah, for me,
it reads as a very sad story

of somebody who's really, really...

fallen through the cracks.

(up tempo music)

I knew, even as a child,

that I should not have been a part
of that family.

My parents were too strict and cold.

They would sometimes become violent,

and I was smacked and hit
for very small things.

At five years old,
I had not been potty-trained

and was still wetting
the bed at night.

I would be smacked in the bath
for wetting

if my mum was too stressed out.

I wondered if my parents loved me,

or I was a burden.

About the time I started school,

I still needed help going
to the toilet.

Children were noticing that I looked
untidy and strange.

I was dirty some days
and others I had washing-up liquid

slicked back in my hair
in a ponytail.

I looked so unkempt or dirty

that kids started saying,
Ginny Germs, no returns.

At home, my drinks were limited to
three cups a day

to try to prevent me wetting the bed.

But when I was 10,
I was still not dry at night.

My dad took me to the chemist
to get Huggies Pull-Ups

and said very loudly to embarrass me,

"You can carry them
as they are yours."

According to what Virginia wrote
in her letters,

she struggled at school
and she also struggled at home.

So, it feels like to me,
it's almost like

she doesn't have
any kind of safe space.

And so, this is almost like
a perfect storm.

The thing that really
stands out to me

is just the degree
of childhood neglect

that she says that she went through.

Virginia highlights an incident

where her father intentionally
shamed her in a pharmacy

whilst they were buying
pull-up nappies for her.

Growing up in this environment
of not being loved,

of being regularly criticised,
and potentially being physically

and emotionally abused,

I think could have left Virginia

with this feeling of resentment
towards her parents

that might have bubbled up
and grown over time.

I was told off or smacked
by both my parents for anything,

and I felt like I had no approval
or praise at home.

The one thing that did matter to
my parents was academic achievement.

But I experienced some of the worst
bullying at secondary school,

and my grades fell short
as I found that I struggled.

My father would make speeches to me

where he said I would end up
in a cardboard box on the streets

and amount to nothing.

So, I decided to scan my school
report to cover up my grades,

and sure enough,

they were actually pleased with me
for a change.

But at the end of Year 11,

when it was time for my school report
to be given to my parents,

it was posted and there was nothing
that I could do.

My mum really laid into me,
as did my dad,

telling me I was useless and stupid,

a wretched human being
that was not their daughter.

If what she says is correct,

the love from her parents
is very conditional.

They would only show her love

if she was able to
achieve something in return.

In my professional opinion,

this feeling of not being loved,

feeling like a burden,

would constitute abuse,

specifically emotional abuse.

At the same time,

they would use physical punishment
and discipline.

Your parents are the people that
support you when you're younger

and they also help you develop
your own moral compass.

So, if you've experienced violence
from a parental figure,

that would increase the risk of you
becoming violent later on in life.

(soft music)

She was a nice girl, Ginny.

Quite quiet.

A little bit different, I'd say.

No one really knew too much
about her, to be honest.

She did distance herself quite a lot.

And some of the stories that
she used to say didn't quite add up.

So, maybe there was another
side to Ginny

that we just didn't know.

Maybe the person
that she was trying to portray

was different to reality.

I'm Will, I run The Ship,

and Ginny was one of my
members of staff here.

She used to do the occasional
Saturday night on the bar,

and she worked for us for about
two or three years, I'd say.

She always made quite a bit of effort
when she worked here.

She'd always dress herself up
quite nicely, lots of make-up.

She'd wear these dresses to make
herself quite revealing as well.

You know, she used to
like the attention.

I think she enjoyed working here,
to be honest.

But, yeah,
the more I got to know her,

the more I realised
she was a little bit different.

She used to do strange things,
like stand right behind you,

and you wouldn't know she was there
until you turned around

and you're like,
"Whoa, where did you come from?"

Like, "I didn't even know
you were there."

There'd just be awkward silences
with her, you know?

Like the conversation wouldn't flow
very well.

She used to make just odd comments
as well, here and there.

When you used to ask her
to do normal jobs

that someone could probably do,
you know, quite easily,

use their common sense,
she would just, I don't know,

seem to struggle with
that a little bit.

The customers used to
find her funny here,

but I don't know if they were
always laughing with her.

They may have been laughing at her.

Some of the other staff
used to talk about her

a little bit behind her back.

(upbeat music)

If I was working with Ginny on shift,

she would ask for a lift home.

Used to pull up outside her house.

I think she invited me round
for a cup of tea once as well,

but I declined.

And her bag wasn't really that big,

but it seemed like she was looking
in her bag for quite a while,

a lot longer than it should have
taken her to find the keys.

So, that's when I thought like,
this is a bit strange.

It was like she was delaying
going back home.

One time, her dad answered the door.

He was wearing underwear
and a wife beater.

I couldn't see his face.

Something was going on
behind closed doors

that we just didn't know about.

That's what I just thought.

I knew that John was her father,

but he never really spoke to me
about his family.

(dramatic music)

Probably knew him for around about
12 years.

You'd see him in here
two to three times a week.

John could be quite volatile,
quite eccentric.

And whenever he played snooker,

he'd expect absolute pin drop silence

despite not being a particularly
quiet person himself when he spoke.

John would have a drink no matter
what time of the day it was.

And he was very keen on snooker.

But if it wasn't going well
and it was getting to him,

then he would want a pint of Foster's
or a glass of red wine

or a double brandy.

Hopefully not all at the same time,
but maybe sometimes.

And there was a little story
where he might have had

one too many drinks at lunch one day
and then he'd like

fallen over outside the university
in front of maybe 20-odd people,

and then decided to stop drinking.

After about a week and a half,
he looked noticeably better,

better for the fact that he hadn't
been drinking for those days.

But, of course, that didn't last.

(poignant music)

Just before the lockdown in 2020,

I'd realised that we hadn't seen John
since the previous year.

So, at that time,
I was kind of thinking,

I wonder what's happened to John?

But then, of course,
the pandemic exploded.

So, we didn't dwell on it
for too long.

My dad's drinking began
long before I was born.

When Dad got drunk,

fights between my mum and dad
would get far too over the top.

I had a role of being a buffer
between my dad's drinking

and mother's mental health,

or taking abuse
from one or both of them.

My mum had severe OCD for years

and would wipe door handles,
sofa surfaces, chairs

in neat disinfectant.

She taught us to see our dad
as unclean or covered in germs.

Sometimes my mother would shout out
insults in the night

or say she wished I was dead.

It was hard to calm her down
or reason with her,

and my dad resorted to drinking more.

I will not go into all details
for everything that happened,

that my father did.

There's something not right
with that whole family dynamic.

For a while afterwards,

I was playing through
every single conversation we had

and everything that she said to me.

Talking about her parents,

she gave me the impression

she had quite
a difficult relationship with them.

And I always felt that there
was something there,

there was a barrier.

(dramatic music)

She never said about
childhood experiences.

Maybe she thought she would
reveal something

or say something if she did.

I thought that there'd been
some kind of abuse,

there'd been something terrible
that happened

that got her to that point.

For her to have done that,

something bad had happened,

something had driven her to it.

Ginny never shared anything
about her home life,

which is a sad thing really,

because everybody talks about
their home life.

There's lots of people saying,
oh, you know,

that dad was quite abusive and that,

whether that's true or not,
I couldn't say that.

But that was the talk.

But I don't know anything about
Ginny's father, not really.

Nobody did.

So, you didn't know how
much to believe,

you know, what happens behind
closed doors,

you're never privy to
that information.

So, there's lots of stuff unanswered.

(dramatic music)

One of the things around
every murder is,

why has this taken place?

Now, what we don't know is
what happens behind closed doors,

but there is some suggestion that
the entire family were unhappy.

Lois is described as
being a fun hoover.

Virginia's father was particularly
strict in her upbringing.

Was this killing retribution for acts
that he'd undertaken previously?

ALAN: In a village, you know,
when something like this happens,

yeah, people start chatting.

And my thoughts really
were with the parents.

I thought what a dreadful thing
to have happened to them.

When it first seemed that
she'd murdered her father,

I wondered if it had been
a sudden argument,

because I could imagine John
could have a quick fuse.

And John used to go and have a drink.

That came to my mind immediately.

MATT: When there is
a lack of information

that's publicly available,

there is the opportunity
for speculation to fill that chasm.

There was an element of that
in this case in Great Baddow.

And because the family
were so reserved

and very private in their lifestyles,

that almost added to that element
of why this might have happened.

There were some speculations

that there had been
an abusive element of the family.

Now, that was something that
we weren't able to verify.

So, it was pure speculation.

(dramatic music)

A number of months before the end,

my mother was getting more
and more emotionally cruel,

telling me I was worthless.

And there was growing toxicity
from my dad's drinking.

Nighttime was my only respite,

and even then, I would cry
and feel hopeless.

I felt emotionally desperate
and trapped.

I got to a point where there
was nothing that I wanted more

than a normal, quiet life,
at almost any cost.

(sinister music)

(high tempo music)

At this point, the story begins
to take a step forward,

because we finally find
out how Lois died.

The cause of John's death
at this point in the investigation

remained unclear,

but the post-mortem examination

revealed that Lois had died
from stab wounds.

The method that Virginia chose
to kill her mother,

stabbing her repeatedly,
it's very frenzied,

it's very brutal,
and it's also very intimate.

For a woman to commit this level
of violence is extremely unusual,

particularly when we've got
an individual, Virginia,

who doesn't have a known history
of previous violence or aggression.

The fact that Virginia could do this

says a lot about
her psychological makeup.

In this case, there are some elements
that are just so bizarre.

You've got a female perpetrator.

She's chosen her own parents
as the target,

and she's been in close proximity
to the bodies for almost five years.

So, what would have been
definitely considered

is a potential psychiatric defence.

In extreme cases where somebody
is driven by mental illness,

they might be found not guilty
by reason of insanity,

and that is full absolution.

So, if the court agrees
with that plea,

it means in the eyes of the law,
you are innocent.

(dramatic music)

There's always the question
in circumstances like this

as to how sound of mind

the possible perpetrator is
during these crimes.

But it's quite unsavoury
to imagine that someone

could go about their daily life

coexisting with two corpses
inside the house.

You begin to wonder how could
her daily life have continued

and how she kept up the pretence
that her parents were still alive.

I spent the first six months
mostly indoors.

I did not sleep upstairs
but in the lounge, on the couch.

Having my parents in the house but
without any mental abuse or drinking,

I admit, in a strange way,
was a silent comfort.

I did go out now and again,

and I did obviously encounter locals
and some neighbours.

I told them that my parents
were away at first,

and then I said that they had
moved to the coast.

I was just living normally
and quietly,

which is rather dull to some perhaps,

but it's all I wanted at the time
I committed the crime.

(dramatic music)

She just seemed to appear one day.

Yeah.

Literally she was looking outside,
I believe,

and then she just came in.

I hadn't seen her around
or anything like that.

It's just kind of like she appeared,

and then hung around
for quite a few years.

So, I'm Rachel.

- And this is Debbie.
- I'm Debbie.

(people chattering)

RACHEL: See you later.

I own House of Flowers
in Great Baddow.

And Rachel is my trusty...

Boss. (chuckles)

She started off just
browsing at things,

and then would spend
more and more time,

and just bought all different stuff.

I didn't really engage with her

because I just felt
she was just too much.

Yeah, she was a bit...well,
she was strange.

Very strange.

She used to wander around
the shop going, la-la-la.

Yeah, she was strange.

PAUL: She was a bit of a fantasist

with some of the things
that she used to say to us,

but you'd just smile and accept it.

And you'd just think,

"Hmm, it's Ginny's behaviour,
it's just the way she was."

You know?

But over this period of time,

we got to know that she could be
quite a generous person.

It'd be the odd coffee.

Then it'd become more regular,

buying doughnuts for the staff,
cakes for the staff.

It was all mainly food stuff,
food items.

It got to a stage where I was sort of
turning her down

because I wanted to lose
a bit of weight

and the stuff that she was buying me
was making me fat.

Well, she spent loads of money.

- At first, it was mainly all cash.
- All cash.

It would always be over
£100, wasn't it?

Quite often, £140, £150.

Just on random goods in the shop.

On giftware more than anything.

And then she came in
with a bag of food for us.

I said, "Ginny, let me pay for this."

And she wouldn't take the money.

She brought the second lot in.

I said, "Ginny, you've got to stop
doing this."

That's when she started buying
the bouquets for people

- after that as well, wasn't it?
- Yeah.

For people like the elderly lady
over the road. And her neighbour.

And a couple that lived
a few doors down.

Yeah.

I just thought, "Why are you
buying these things?

I don't understand why."

I thought she was just
trying too hard.

Maybe she's just trying
to make friends, maybe.

Almost like childlike in a way.

(up tempo music)

ELLA: People would say
that she was odd,

but she wasn't odd to me.

You know, she was just Ginny.

Ginny was a little quirky.

You know, she was just...

always about.

She was constantly outside her house
and around.

And you would see her on her drive

and doing gardening out front

or sweeping up leaves.

And she'd stop me,
and she'd say something,

"Oh, your hair's nice,"

"Oh, that colour looks good on you."

And she just seemed, you know,
a genuine person.

I don't think she had
many people that

did want to listen to her,

or were interested,

or even cared.

I've heard people say
that she wanted to buy friendship,

but I don't think she did that.

I think she wanted to feel like
she was a nice person,

and she was doing nice
things for people.

(dramatic music)

All the time would be coming over
with something,

you know, something to eat,
something to drink.

Did we want anything? You know?

And that's when we started
to question,

where did she get the money from?

Because as far as we was aware,

Ginny never worked.

We now know that Virginia
was taking full advantage

of her parents' financial situation.

After their deaths,

she regularly took money
from their bank account.

She knew the PIN numbers,
had access to those accounts.

She continued to claim
her parents' state pension

and work-related pensions.

She was benefiting hugely from money

which was intended to go to them.

And on the day they were killed,

Virginia ordered a new card
in her mum's name

and went on a spending spree.

This was a woman who had
no qualms about spending

and stealing time and time again.

You can't help but think, what was
she doing with all that money?

(high tempo music)

Yes, I did use money
that I should not have done

that was pension money
and on credit cards.

But I did not buy any holidays,
vehicles,

designer items or anything high-end.

I spent money on everyday things
and bills

to keep the house running.

It is true that I bought some locals
food, takeaways,

and other things on regular occasions
to be kind.

I was addicted to the smile
it would put on some of their faces

and the friendly behaviour
that then followed.

Ginny, to me, was a customer.

- And...
- I wouldn't call her a friend.

- No way.
- To me, she was a nuisance.

She got banned from a couple of shops
because she was such a nuisance.

I didn't have a clue what she
was talking about half the time.

Most of the time I would just be,
yes, no, yes, no,

because I was just trying
to cut it short.

PAUL: There was always something new,

there was always a new story
for her to tell you about,

some sort of drama.

You know,
her Ring Doorbell getting hacked,

the internet getting hacked,

her phone's getting hacked,

post going missing.

She always had problems with
two neighbours across the road.

And I actually spoke
to the people that

she was making these things up about,
and they were like, "What?"

That's where her eccentricity
comes from,

because she was making up
all these things.

PAUL: I always felt she was a little
bit of a fantasist.

I'd speak to her for a while

and it would be a normal
conversation,

but then she'd say something
which was completely off the planet.

You'd think, "That can't be right."

She'd sometimes say something like,

"Oh, the neighbours are spying on me.

You have to be careful with that one
over there,"

or, "My mail's being stolen."

I mean, a few weeks before
she was arrested,

she was going around telling people
that she was pregnant.

(dramatic music)

She said she was pregnant.

So, you start to question then,

"Oh, who's the dad?"

Because there's never been a mention
of a boyfriend

in any of this time
that she's been here.

So, "Oh, the dad's
an old boyfriend of mine.

You know, you know how it is."

When she came out that
she was pregnant,

she didn't tell us who it was

or...

any information about him
as a person either.

Anyone normal, you'd have
a two-way conversation,

but you just didn't have a two-way
conversation with her.

She would just tell you what
she wanted you to hear,

and then that was it.

And then I started to doubt
if there ever was the pregnancy.

Some days she would really be
rubbing the belly

and really showing the belly,

then other days I was like,

"Where's the bump gone?"

It wasn't consistent
as it was getting bigger.

- It was...
- But it went from...

...bigger some days than other.

It went from a nice, high, neat bump
to quite a big...

- And then to quite a big bump.
- Yeah.

How can your baby grow that much
in such a short time?

RACHEL: I'd already questioned
a few things, hadn't I,

- with the paperwork and stuff?
- Because of the paperwork,

she carried around everywhere
with her,

it was photocopies of something.

It was just photocopies
in her handbag,

and it always poked out of her bag
as much...

just enough for you
to see baby stuff,

but not enough for you to actually
physically see...

- The whole...
- ...exactly what it was.

PAUL: I just don't think
she was pregnant at all.

When someone comes in
and says they're pregnant

and shows you a scan,
all very quickly,

you have doubts.

I don't know why she did it.

I just think it was just like
everything else

that went round in Pump Hill.

This was just another
one of them things.

Maybe it was the crackling
of the edges

that she'd had this
façade for so long,

and things were starting
to tumble down.

So, she was starting
to come up with things

so, people would feel sorry for her
a bit more.

I don't know.

But there was definitely
stuff going on.

When you're friends with somebody,

there's an element of trust
and truth and honesty,

and I don't know how
much she was with me

with all of those things.

She said that she'd had a scan,

and the baby was fine,

and that's when she told
me it was a girl.

She said that there was this
big family gathering

and they were all going to be there,

and she said that she was gonna go
and tell them all

that she was pregnant.

And when I saw her the next day,

I said, "Oh, yeah,
how did it go down?

Was everyone really happy for you?
Are they all excited?"

You know, and she went, "No. No."

She said, "My parents are
very old-fashioned,

and they don't approve of the fact
that I haven't got a partner

and I'm single."

I don't know. I just...

I just believed her
and took everything on face value.

You know, I think she
must have known that

she wouldn't have had
time with this baby

because she was hiding
her huge secret,

and she must have known there was
a time when it would all come out.

(dark music)

Telling all these lies,
this is either something

that's completely fabricated
or lying for sympathy.

Somebody who's extremely sensitive

and perhaps quite dramatic.

They are simply a pathological liar.

We do know that Virginia
is obviously quite deceitful

in terms of the fact that she managed
to hide the death of her parents,

lie about their location for years.

RUSSELL: Virginia had engaged
in a very comprehensive

and complex cover-up
of her parents' deaths.

SIMON: There was a huge amount
of deception perpetrated by Virginia.

Ginny contacted the GP
nearly 200 times,

making and then cancelling
appointments for her parents.

She was, in effect,
juggling plates all the while,

booking medical appointments
and then cancelling them,

suggesting that they couldn't attend
for one reason or another,

using their bank accounts
sufficiently

to make it seem that they were
still using them.

She had to convince people
that her parents were still alive,

and she was doing that
through multiple text messages

to the authorities.

It was one lie after another.

DR DAS: Looking at Virginia's lie,

in terms of keeping her parents' body

in the family home,

yet telling so many different people
across years

about her parents' apparent
whereabouts and their travelling,

it shows a real commitment.

The average person would
significantly struggle

with lying about something
so intense, so emotional

about covering up
the murder of your own parents,

especially doing it consistently
for such a long period of time.

I imagine it must have been
psychologically taxing for Virginia,

and I do wonder whether this pressure
just built up in her mind over time.

(sinister music)

ELLA: In the weeks leading up to her
arrest, she got quite paranoid.

I don't think she was in a very
good place.

Her conversations were
more and more about

how awful her life was becoming

with what she was having
to deal with.

And the problems that she was having
living in her street.

And it was a lot about her neighbours

and a lot about the police.

One particular day she came in,
obviously very, very distressed.

I've never seen her like that before.

But she had a big bandage
on her arm, didn't she?

Yeah.

And then she just kept blaming
her neighbours,

said her neighbours had attacked her.

We hadn't seen her
for about two weeks,

which was a long time
not to see Ginny.

And she walked in the front door
of the shop,

and she had bruises and lacerations.

So, I'm like, "What happened?"

"Oh, I was in the bedroom,
and at three o'clock in the morning

I heard a kerfuffle
out in the garden.

So, I've gone downstairs
and gone outside.

And someone was there,
and I confronted them.

They jumped me, and then
they jumped off and ran away."

ELLA: She told me that they
were slashing her

with some kind of blade,

and they were punching
her in the face.

She said that she was convinced
it was her neighbours.

But there were people saying that
it was all self-inflicted.

And I don't know, you'd really have
to go some to do that to yourself.

Her face was really bad,

because we both were scrutinising her
to see if it was really good makeup.

- We didn't think it was.
- I don't think it was makeup.

It looked really good, if it was.

RACHEL: I was genuinely worried
about her.

As much as I thought she was crazy,

I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

But then she said the police
were against her.

They've been round,
they've asked questions,

but I don't trust them,
I can't trust them at all.

They're all in on it.

I just kept saying, "Deb,
just back off,

she's becoming crazier."

It was just too much.

(dramatic music)

PAUL MALEARY: Around a month
before the arrest took place,

officers attended the home address
of Virginia McCullough.

Now, they'd gone there
in order to investigate

an alleged assault on her.

She invited the officers in.

The officer that attended,

whilst she didn't see
anything untoward,

she would have carried out
house-to-house enquiries

in relation to the assault
that had taken place.

And a neighbour had said,

"Well, actually,
there's three people who live there,

but we haven't seen the old couple
for some considerable time."

ELLA: She became very unhappy.

She said that the police had been
knocking on people's houses

and saying things like,
"Do you think Virginia's a nuisance?

Does she bother you? Do you want to
make a complaint about her?"

It seemed strange that she was
so obsessed with the police.

(dramatic music)

She just wouldn't let it go.

She was talking about a court case

that she was bringing
against the police.

And she'd even told me that
the police had told her

that if she'd kept calling,
they were going to arrest her.

If you had done what she'd done,

you'd want to be so far off
the police's radar

that you wouldn't even want them
to know that you were born.

I think she did want to be found out.

It's the only thing that kind of
makes any sense.

She must have known that there was
a knock on the door coming.

(high tempo music)

I had a call on the Tuesday
asking where my parents were,

and I said that they were away.

I knew that the officer was unhappy
with my answers.

On the Wednesday,

police were knocking on windows
and doors.

They called out for me through
the letterbox.

I did not come to the door,

but I knew that the arrest was
fast approaching.

PAUL: The last time I saw Ginny
was on a Thursday.

She spoke to one of my colleagues,

and she said that the police
were looking for her.

We didn't pay much attention to it
at the time.

But she did say to my colleague
that the police were after her

because she had murdered her parents.

You what?

And we just was all like,

"Oh, yeah, it's one of her sort of
fantasy stories

that she's coming out with."

(suspenseful music)

On the Friday,
I heard thuds at the door.

Police were all over the garden
trying to see into the house.

I had to barely make a sound,
or they would know I was there.

On the Friday, my colleagues I was
working with at the time said to me,

"The police are round Ginny's."

So, I went flying around
there because

I thought something had
happened to her.

So, I managed to grab one
of the police officers there,

and I said, "Can you just tell me
if she's alright?"

And they said, "Yeah, she's alright,
but she won't let us in."

And I went, "So, she's okay,
but you're here to arrest her?"

And he goes, "Yeah."

(high tempo music)

(phone ringing)

ELLA: She sent me a message,

that she thought she was gonna
be arrested.

AUTOMATED VOICE: The number you have
dialled is currently not available.

ELLA: She sounded like,
"Oh, this is just an inconvenience.

It'll all get sorted out,
you know..."

But it was the last communication.

I didn't hear from her again.

AUTOMATED VOICE: Please leave your
message after the tone.

(crashing, police shouting)

(whoosh)

I knew I would be arrested one day
and should be.

I knew I should be punished,

which is why I did not try and run
or leave.

I was relieved in a huge way
that the deception was over.

I was also relieved to welcome
what would take its course.

So, I told the police
plenty of information

to help the investigation,

and was trying to make things
easier for them.

I tried to open best I could.

PAUL MALEARY: After Virginia
was arrested

and taken to the police station,

I'm not sure that the officers
were prepared

for the regurgitation of information

that Virginia supplied to them.

The fact is, she was quite happy
to deliver all of this information

about the way
that she killed her parents.

She almost vomited
the information to them.

It's a very, very rare occurrence

for somebody to make
that type of confession.

It's incredible.

From my point of view,
what this actually says about her

is that she is a controlling,
coercive individual,

that she knows what she's doing.

The fact is she's trying to portray
herself as being compassionate,

but she's not compassionate.
She's cold-hearted.

I suspect that Virginia took
great pleasure

in describing the way in which
she had murdered

in particular her mother.

(high tempo music)

SIMON: The description that Virginia
gave is quite frankly appalling.

One of the most shocking aspects
is the amount of planning.

We know she started to plan it
from about March.

She started to stockpile
her own prescription medicine.

She researched on the internet

the effects that that would have had
on people.

She even tried it out on her parents
in small doses over several occasions

to see the effect it would have
on them.

RUSSELL: We now know that John died
from prescription medication.

You can imagine how horrific
it must have been for him

thinking he was maybe falling ill.

But then you also wonder was there
any point that he asked himself,

why this was happening to him?

And I think that is a difficult
visual image to have.

(sinister music)

I used the fact my father
had a drinking problem

to poison his drinks
with a cocktail of drugs.

And I found him laying on his bed,

and he had passed away.

RUSSELL: We then heard
she had also intended

to kill her mother the same way,

but the quantities used
hadn't quite been sufficient.

So, she told the police she'd got
a knife and stabbed her mother.

I did try and kill both of my parents
with drugs.

(high tempo music)

One worked, and one did not.

I'd given less drugs to my mother.

I quietly went into the doorway
and found her.

As it turned out,
she was in a deep sleep.

I pulled the door back closed again

and went to get gloves,
a knife, and a hammer.

I went back in, and she was
facing away from me.

I hesitated,
and then I carried out the act.

SIMON: "I went back in
with the hammer."

She just looked so innocent.

"I hit a little at the side around
the top of the cranium."

"I wasn't even hitting her properly.

I was hitting like someone
playing the xylophone badly.

I didn't want her to suffer.

I wanted her to pass quickly
like my father."

It's difficult to read these notes
without feeling some pain

and putting yourself in the room
of the victim.

These good people went through
some unspeakable pain.

It's awful.
It doesn't bear thinking about.

It was a cold, calculated act.

And she quite openly admitted
that she has done this.

PAUL MALEARY: No one person could get
inside the mind of a murderer

despite all these
self-professed experts.

But the fact is,
she is a cold-hearted killer.

She is bad. Not mad.

She knows exactly what she's doing.

(dramatic music)

I think it's fair to say
the people that knew Virginia

thought that there was something
a little bit odd about her

and her behaviour.

But as a forensic psychiatrist,

I can categorically say
that that is not the same

as having a severe mental illness

that might affect your culpability.

The very fact that Virginia
had pre-planned

both murders quite effectively,

is a strong indication to me

that she knew exactly
what she was doing.

We know that she stockpiled
her own medication to use as poison.

She actually physically went to
get a knife to use.

So, it's somebody that's
got forethought.

(high tempo music)

What the forensic psychiatrist
is really looking for

is symptoms of potential
mental illness

to see if this affects
their criminal culpability or not.

And the patients that
meet this threshold

usually have very intense,
life-changing symptoms

like hearing voices
or paranoid delusions,

and they're out of touch of reality.

But in this case,
after psychiatric evaluation,

the court experts determined
that Virginia

didn't meet the threshold
for diminished responsibility.

Which, in layman's terms, means that
she didn't have a mental impairment.

(dramatic music)

REPORTER: An Essex woman
who's previously admitted

murdering her parents

after their bodies were found at
the family home in Great Baddow

is due to be sentenced
at Chelmsford Crown Court today.

MATT: The atmosphere in the courtroom
was one of mostly anticipation,

but also wonder as to what details
we're about to hear.

There was just a hush amongst people

as they were waiting for
the judge to arrive,

and also, for Virginia to be brought
into the secure dock.

I was called into court
and simply asked to state my name,

and yes to a couple of statements.

Then details of the case
were read out by the prosecution.

(high tempo music)

MATT: We could see up close
every movement,

every twitch of emotion from Virginia

as all of the details of the case
were read to the court.

For the vast majority
of the sentencing hearing,

Virginia didn't show
any sort of emotion

apart from when there were some
finer details being read

about the methods in which
she'd killed her mother.

The evidence that I heard
in the morning

surrounding my mother's death
made me cry in court.

I know how wrong what I did was,

and I'm guilty and remorseful
for this.

But it is something that is very hard
to go over emotionally.

These really were very graphic
details that we heard in sentencing.

But we also heard about
what her motivation had been.

The evidence presented in court

painted a picture of a very
manipulative and devious woman.

During this investigation,

there had been those who thought
perhaps her upbringing

may have played a part.

But it became clear that
the prosecution

were focusing on a financial motive
for this crime.

(sinister music)

The motivation in relation
to this murder

from my point of view, is money.

Her whole aim was to obtain money
from her dead parents.

She needed to get them out of the way
in order to maintain a lifestyle

that she'd become accustomed to

through her gambling
and lifestyle in general.

Now anybody that would
kill a family member

for their pension

is a very, very evil person.

(suspenseful music)

Understandably, Virginia's siblings
don't want public attention.

So, they're protected
by a court order,

which is a legal ruling
that their identities

shouldn't be uncovered.

But at the same time,
they wanted to submit statements

that could be read out in court.

SISTER: It is impossible to describe
the prolonged pain

Virginia has inflicted.

It is impossible to process such
a senseless crime.

Virginia's prolific lies, laziness,
and greed

are such senseless reasons
for killing our parents.

Virginia's siblings have been through
two tragedies, really.

there's the horrific death
of their parents,

and then just having to appreciate
and understand

that it was caused by
their own sister,

and her general web of deceit.

One of the things revealed
at sentencing

is the fact that Virginia had tried
to make sure that the family

are unable to maintain any form
of communication

with their nearest and dearest.

RUSSELL: It became quite clear
during sentencing

that Virginia was ruthless
in her deception.

SIMON: She pretended to be her mother
and her father.

She sent numerous texts to people
trying to rebuff any visits.

She's contacted her siblings.

She's texted using her mother's name.

She's hoodwinked her
uncle, her auntie.

The court heard that she had 145
separate SIM cards

with which she used to message
her sisters,

and also other relatives as well.

The very sad thing for her sisters
was that these messages

would suggest that John and Lois
no longer wanted to see them.

That must have been absolutely awful.

In a sinister twist to this case,

Virginia pretended to be her mother
by making a phone call

to one of her siblings.

She altered her voice sufficiently
to convince her sibling

that she was Lois.

SISTER: Virginia had pretended to be
my parents

and communicated with me in that role
on almost a daily basis.

This grotesque intrusion
is made incredibly painful

by the messages sent to me,

purporting to be my parents,
that were at times hurtful.

This and the ridiculous excuses
for not seeing me

left me with the feeling of being
unvalued as their child,

that my own parents didn't
want to see me.

To have been manipulated
and deceived so significantly

and in such a prolonged way,
has been truly shocking.

MATT: When you're listening
to all of these details,

it's difficult not to feel shocked
by the manipulation

that she embarked on.

You can't imagine what the family
will have been going through

to experience that,

and to have been led on such
a journey of lies.

DR DAS: Virginia lied repeatedly
over such a long period of time,

but Virginia's siblings'
statements corroborated

some of what Virginia was saying,

their mother did have
mental health issues,

and their father did have problems
with alcohol.

However, one thing that appears to be
categorically contradicted

is whether or not Virginia
was physically abused.

(high tempo music)

SISTER: Virginia had the audacity
to lie even more

and try to accuse our parents
of behaving in the most awful way,

which is totally untrue.

Her lies about the whole family

are a disgusting,
untrue misrepresentation.

DR DAS: Virginia seemed to be very
keen to place herself as the victim.

But when there is physical abuse
or domestic violence,

often there is a trail of evidence.

But as far as we're aware,

there is no such police record
within this family.

And to me, this is really important

because that kind of underpins
all of Virginia's reasoning

and explanation of what she did.

I was not trapped physically
but was emotionally trapped.

The problems were behind closed doors
at Pump Hill.

My siblings had their
own lives to live,

and there was no one else behind me
to support or give respite.

But I chose myself over
my parents wrongfully.

DR DAS: Having read the multiple
letters that Virginia wrote,

it feels like she's trying to
gain sympathy from the public.

The profile that I'm
building of Virginia

is that she's willing to do
almost anything

for her own motivations.

And the court experts determined

that Virginia had
a neurodevelopmental disorder,

as well as traits of psychopathy.

In terms of the psychopathic traits,

this would include a lack of empathy,

not caring about the rights
of other people,

impulsivity, criminal versatility,

and also being quite cunning
and manipulative.

And it's the psychopathic traits
that drove her to kill her parents.

(sombre music)

When I heard 36 years being read out,

I told the lady next
to me in the dock

that I should have got life
without parole.

Not only do I think I deserved
life without parole,

but felt that even that
was not punishment enough

to ease my guilt or remorse
even mildly.

I have made so many mistakes
in my life through deception,

secrecy, and self-sabotage.

The worst of all is the crime that
I killed my parents.

I wish my siblings healing,

and I'm glad that they
have each other.

I hope that in time they are all able
to be happy again

and be a closer family than it was
when I was part of it.

I will try and be a better person
in prison

and make a life of sorts.

I've been here for one year
and four months,

and I'm happier and more myself
in prison

than I was able to be around people
on the outside

and my family.

I also thank you
for reading this letter.

Kind regards, Virginia.

ELLA: I can't get round my head

that somebody would do what she did

for some pensions

and for a little bit of money,

it just doesn't make sense to me.

I have for a long time thought about

were we really friends, you know?

Because she was living
this other life

trying to divert everybody away from
what really was going on.

But I hear she's happy,

and she's flourishing.

And I'm glad,

because I think it's probably
the right environment for her.

It's the peace that she
said she wanted,

and I'm glad she's got that.

(contemplative music)