All language subtitles for the_radical_story_of_patty_hearst_s01e05_the_conversion

As soon as we turn on the TV, we see
cops scurrying around and we hear

Patricia wanted to retaliate
immediately.

She loved somebody that had just been
murdered by the government.

I was ripped off by the pigs when they
murdered Kujo.

Still feels determined to fight.

At that point, it was against her will
to go home. We started having

about expropriation.

That split second of an instant.

The mother of four was killed.

It didn't change anything.

It didn't alter my path.

We had to carry on.

The granddaughter of William Randolph
Hearst was abducted by two men and a

in a bizarre kidnapping.

No ransom note, no phone calls, no word,
nothing.

The SLA is the people's army and we
fight in their interest.

The FBI said the girl in the wig with
the automatic rifle was Patricia Hearst.

Rich college girl turned armed terrorist
in a matter of weeks.

Southern California's largest manhunt
continues.

For someone my age, I've been through an
awful lot.

We don't know where she is.

Mom, Dad, I'm okay.

After the Crocker bank robbery, the
remaining members of the group leave

Sacramento and go to San Francisco.

You know, Patty, she and Steve Sully are
a couple. I mean, they are living

together as boyfriend and girlfriend,
and they start to live a fairly normal

life.

Shortly after we moved back to San
Francisco, I really didn't see Hearst.

We operate still on a need -to -know
basis. There was no need for us to know

where Patty lived.

Steve and her lover are linked between
the two places.

After the group moved back to San
Francisco, Their political activism just

one form, bombing.

Bombing was an entirely different thing
in the late 60s and the early 70s than

it is today.

Across the nation, between January of
last year and April of this year, a

of 4 ,330 bombings have been reported.

Patricia, Bill, and Emily join in with
Mike Borton, Jim Kilgore,

Steve Solia.

Kathy Solia, in starting to make bombs.

One time, they were fooling around with
these pipe bombs in the backyard and

went in for lunch.

And lo and behold, there was a fire in
the back. And all of a sudden, the fire

department comes barging in. They don't
knock. They come barging in. There's a

fire. They went right through the house,
didn't see Patty Hearst, didn't see the

guns, didn't see anything, just saw a
fire in the backyard.

That's how incompetent And comedy of
errors this whole thing was.

August 7th, 1975.

Patty Hearst herself goes to Tarval
Station, a police station in San

and with her own hands places a bomb
under a police car.

Now, fortunately, it was a dud. It never
went off.

August 20th, 1975.

They wanted to set two bombs off at the
Marin County Courthouse.

The intention was for the first device
to go off underneath the law enforcement

vehicle, which would likely create some
level of panic. The second device would

then go off, which was placed right
within the doorway.

Anyone within close proximity of the
device going off would likely be killed.

Patty Hearst was involved in this plan.

Fortunately, the bombs did go off, but
in the wrong order, and no one was hurt.

The most dangerous plan of all was in
Los Angeles.

It was clearly designed with only one
objective, which was to kill cops.

There's a police car parked next to the
window at the IHOP in Hollywood.

Underneath that car was a pipe bomb that
was designed to go off.

but only go off when the officers were
seated in the car and the car was

The device that set it off was an
ordinary household clothespin. Into that

clothespin were screws that were drilled
in, and then the wires were drilled

around the screws.

In the middle of where the clothespin
would close, the SLA had put a wooden

in that space to block the circuit.

Attached to that shim...

was a magnet that was placed to the
undercarriage of the car.

Once that shim was pulled out, the two
screws would make contact with each

other, and that would allow the circuit
to be complete, and the bomb would go

off. The officers pulled out at an angle
that caused the trigger mechanism to

tweak just enough so that the trigger
points didn't match, and by a miracle,

bomb didn't go off.

After the police discovered the first
bomb, they called basically every

that was on the street and had them go
look under their cars.

There was another bomb that was found at
Hollenbeck Station.

One of my former partners had parked his
car there, and when he went back to his

car, he actually found the bomb
underneath his car.

These are pretty much the two most
powerful pipe bombs that have ever been

planted.

Three -inch inner diameter by 12 inches
in length.

The largest pipe bomb I personally have
ever seen.

These devices also contained three
-quarter -inch concrete nails.

The addition of shrapnel to an explosive
device is for the sole purpose of

injuring or killing.

These bombs, had they gone off, might
well have killed a dozen people.

Where did the bombings fit in here?

I didn't do any of it.

You weren't involved in Emeryville?

No. Nope.

Nope.

Not that I recall.

I don't recall ever making a bomb.

I don't know how to make a bomb.

I couldn't make a bomb to this very day,
and I wouldn't trust myself making a

bomb. No, I didn't make a bomb that was
used against police cars in Emeryville.

I didn't.

I was not involved in that either.

And the LAPD, the two giant pipe bombs,
one under Hollenbeck undercover cop car

and one under the cop car in front of
IHOP.

I don't have any knowledge of that that
I would like to share with you. How

about that?

There's no question that the bombings
were a direct response to the shootout

L .A. That's why LAPD officers were
targeted.

The byproduct of those bombs is that
other people were going to be killed

completely innocent people. What really
separates the SLA from these other

groups is violence against people.

Weather Underground, they also did
bombings, but they were aimed at

not at people.

This group was not done. They had
further intent to kill individuals and

create havoc.

In early August of 1975, we had no clue
where the fugitives were.

The focus of my investigation was to
find Kathleen Sly. There was no arrest

warrant for her. We were just trying to
find another link to get us back to

Wendy Yoshimura.

Wendy Yoshimura had allegedly rented her
house, and inside the

residence, inside the garage, were...
paraphernalia that was linked to a

in Alameda County.

And so she was being charged as an
accomplice.

We had to look through files and see
somebody who knew Kathleen Saliah

was associated with her.

I found a woman by the name of Patricia
Jean McCarthy.

She was a nurse.

We actually had a place where she went
to work, and we had a place where she

lived. And so we started a surveillance
on Pat Gene McCarthy that led us to the

apartment complex down in Pacifica. We
interviewed the gentleman running the

complex, and he said, yeah, they're my
painters, and they're working in this

apartment today.

It was Jim Kilgore, Michael Borden,
Steve Zelaya, and the two Zelaya sisters

were the ones that he knew and could
identify.

The people who were doing the painting
went from Pacifica, Then they ended up

parked on Moore Street.

We don't want to screw this up. This is
the first time we ever knew where the

Celayas were.

We had a guy who worked at Pacific Gas
and Electric who was a retired FBI guy.

And so I called him and I said, is there
anything going on on Moore Street?

He said, at 625 Moore, we got somebody
stealing power.

The next morning, they followed them
from 625 Morris to the vicinity of 292

Preseda.

At 10 o 'clock that morning, I saw Steve
Salia, Kathleen Salia, and

Josephine Salia come out of 288 Preseda.
I expected them to come out. That's who

we'd been surveilling. Then I see
what... I think, as Bill and Emily

walked down the same set of steps.

They were literally 20 feet away from
us. I mean, we weren't even breathing

inside that place because this was
supposed to be an unoccupied camper.

I took a load of laundry down to the
laundromat that was located around the

corner from Presida.

I was in there doing laundry, and I
noticed the guy come in the laundromat

dressed in a suit.

This was a totally working -class
neighborhood, a lot of Latinos.

White guys in suits were generally cops.

He looked me dead in the face, and I'm
looking him dead in the face.

He turns immediately to his right and
goes to a payphone that's on the wall

the front of the laundromat.

You know, I get a really, really bad
feeling about what's happened.

So I immediately went home and I told
Emily that I thought I got made by a cop

or a fed.

We were prepared to leave by the next
day.

On the next day, Bill and Emily came out
of their apartment and they just

started jogging down for Sita.

We never saw them until they jumped out
and arrested us.

They did everything but put a bag over
our heads.

It was quick. It was like...

Super fucking fast. Very well done.

We had no idea who was inside that
house.

But we needed to go in to ensure
ourselves that Patty wasn't there,

just arrested Bill and Emily, who were
charged with her kidnapping.

When we get inside there, what we're
confronted with are carbines, shotguns,

bombs. We had no clue that any of that
stuff was there.

From the house in which William and
Emily Harris had lived briefly, police

removed quite an assortment of guns,
ammunition, explosives, and at least one

pipe bomb, assembled and ready to blow.

The question police now ask as they
study this evidence, was William Harris

involved in a series of terrorist
bombings in San Francisco?

I asked the agent in charge, did anybody
go to the other address?

And he said, what other address?

So I said, well, I'm going to go, and
Tom Patton says, I'm going with you.

All we know is that there was a power
gas issue at 625 Morris Street.

As we're walking up, the garage door was
up, and there's a guy standing in the

garage door. He's a plumber.

We show him the pictures of Patty and
Wendy, and he says, well, I don't know

that's them or not, but he says there's
two women upstairs. I've heard them

giggling. Tom Padden was the senior guy.
He made the decision. He says, I'm

going to go to the back door. And when
he gets there, the door is open. It's a

warm day.

And Wendy is sitting at the table of
Patty Hearst. Tom Padden says, FBI.

But what does Patty Hearst do?

Does she run into their arms and say,
thank you so much for saving me? No. She

runs towards the bedroom where the guns
are stored.

He's seen.

the firearms and the bombs at the other
location. Now she's in an area where we

can't observe her.

He put the gun to Wendy's head and said,
I'm going to kill her if you don't come

back.

It's only because the agents and cops
acted quickly in that apartment that

was not a hail of gunfire, too.

She was placed in handcuffs, and then
she said, hey, I'll wet my pants.

Under supervision, she was able to
change.

We had two...

five -shot revolvers in their purses, an
M1 carbine, and a 12 -gauge shotgun.

So we were clearly outgunned.

Evidently, Stephen rolled up to Moore
Street. He shows up right after they hit

the house.

He wanted to, you know, make sure Hearst
was all right.

Steve Zelaya is arrested by the agents
who were inside the house. And from that

moment, we could not find Jim Kilgore.

Michael Borton, Kathleen Celaya, and
Josephine Celaya.

They were gone. They were underground.

When we were arrested, we were
immediately transported to the San Mateo

Jail.

I had to do something that was
demonstrative.

I was a captured urban guerrilla. So I
raised my hands into as powerful a pose

as I could get and turned around and
walked into jail.

You know, it was important to set the
tone.

And we all did that. A year and a half
after her kidnapping, she's in the safe

arms of the law.

So what does she do?

Patty gives the revolutionary salute,
even when she's in handcuffs.

And when she's booked, she's asked her
occupation.

And what does she say?

Urban gorilla.

The principal question is whether the
daughter of an American millionaire.

turn revolutionary, and if so, why?

Terribly happy, more happy than
trepidatious.

Do you have any notion what you'll say
to her when you see her? I'll tell her I

love her.

Are there questions that you want to ask
her?

No questions in my mind.

When Patty was arrested, her demeanor
was very, very cocky.

She was upset at the FBI.

She received a visit almost immediately
with one of her best friends from the

past, a woman named Trish Tobin.

I guess I'll just tell you, like, my
politics are real different from way

when, obviously.

Right. And so this creates all kinds of
problems for me in terms of a defense.

I mean, it's so crazy because, you know,
Trish Tobin is telling her.

that she, Trish Tobin, is about to head
off to Switzerland to go skiing for

three weeks. I mean, so what you have in
this compressed circumstance is the

old life, skiing in Switzerland for
three weeks, and Patty's saying,

I got a life now. I got a new life.

I took the Hearst case in September of
75.

I pretty much understood.

From day one, that she probably had gone
over, so to speak, through constant

brainwashing.

Private defense lawyer F. Lee Bailey is
a superstar, a living Perry Mason.

To have F. Lee Bailey join this case
really gave it a lot of notoriety. He

extremely well known, and he brings that
celebrity to the case.

You want to see Patricia Hurst?

A little, but I'm primarily here to see
Mr. Bailey.

The Hursts are really ramping up for
this one.

We knew we were in for a fight.

U .S. history attorney was James L.
Browning, Jr.

He was a bright guy, but in terms of
just his manner and his deportment and

dress, you couldn't help but be struck
by how square he was.

Aftley brought in his number one
sidekick, Al Johnson.

Al Johnson played an amazing role in the
case.

He was the one that was very, very close
to Patty, very protective of her.

I was shocked to see the extent of
emotional disturbance

that her captivity had caused.

She was shriveled up in a chair.

sitting across the table from me, you
would have to be an uninformed human

not to know of the trauma she had been
through by just looking at her.

Have you met Bailey? What's he like?

I've only met him like twice.

What's he like? Is he a nice guy?

He's okay. He's real patronizing.
Really?

Yeah, well, he's not here the whole
time, huh? The other guy, Johnson, is,

That's real nice.

Bailey, I just, I don't know him, you
know? Like, he just kind of drifts in

you know, says, you know, blah, blah,
blah, and then I just go, oh, okay.

She writes letters to Steve Solia, these
dramatic love letters to her boyfriend,

saying, I want to keep up the fight.

for the revolution.

And she wants to overthrow the
government in America, which she spells

-R -I -K -K -K -A.

Al Johnson and I constantly reminded
Patty that she was to have no contact

any of her former...

colleagues from the SLA or elsewhere in
that outlaw environment because they

would do nothing but hurt her. It took
her many months to gradually work her

back into society where she wasn't
afraid of the SLA.

She was deprogrammed and de
-radicalized, returned to the persona

similar to what she was when she was
originally kidnapped.

She was essentially brainwashed.

by her side team and her lawyers.

It was never true that our objective was
to reconvert her.

News came that she'd been caught.

It was a huge relief, and I did want to
see her, but she didn't want to see me,

and the attorneys didn't want her to see
me.

It was clear by that time she had
reevaluated the past.

It was something she really didn't want
anything to do with by that time.

In the days after she was arrested, she
was still a revolutionary, given the

fifth salute, calling herself an urban
gorilla.

But in short order, she returned to
being the Patty Hearst of Hillsboro,

California, the heiress herself.

It's kind of fun. You sit back there and
there's nothing else to do but paint

your nails.

It's real exciting.

I've been crocheting now. At least my
mother, she came in and she asked, she

asking me about my hair, you know, like,
can I change it back?

And she asked if there was a beauty
parlor.

I think that Al Johnson in particular
did a fabulous job, in a sense, bringing

her back.

I have a really nice brown pantsuit.

Al got it.

He has really good taste.

By the time she walked into the
courtroom, nail polish, nice pair of

well dressed, it was impressive.

Well, certainly in her defense, in
Patricia Hearst's defense, the one thing

we had to do was prepare her for
testimony.

Secondly, we had to produce expert
testimony in order to show that she had

volition. In other words, that she was
brainwashed.

During the next few weeks, it promises
to be the latest example of the powerful

role psychiatry now plays in the law. It
may be called the trial of the century.

The trial for the Hibernia bank robbery
began in February of 1976, and

the whole defense of that case was based
upon a showing that

Her actions were based upon persuasive
coercion. We invoked

that in medieval days, if the princess
were kidnapped from the castle, she

not be held accountable for anything
happening until she was returned to

In the American criminal justice system,
there is no such defense as

brainwashing.

The legal version of that defense is
called coercive persuasion. In other

words, I, as a defendant, was forced to
commit these crimes and therefore

am not guilty.

That was the defense that Bailey and
company put forward at Patty's trial.

We knew with a high degree of certainty
that...

brainwashing or coercive persuasion was
going to be the main defense because it

was the only other possible, possible
explanation.

The problem for Bailey in the defense
was that they had very few options for

what to argue. They couldn't argue she
wasn't in the bank.

They couldn't argue that this was
mistaken identity.

You're at a real disadvantage.

There's been all this publicity about
everything that Patty had done. You have

steep ramp to climb as a defense
attorney to try to unring that bell.

There was no legal defense available to
her that I never would have robbed the

bank if I hadn't been kidnapped in the
first place. Everybody knew that was

true. She was not going to be a bank
robber. But so what?

She did rob the bank, and she was on
trial for it. And what led her to that

moment? was only relevant if she could
prove that she did not really intend to

rob the bank, but was in fact forced to
rob it.

We were committed to showing what her
actions were in the next year and a

because the whole issue is what her
intent was, and her conduct for the next

year and a half would be pretty
reflective of what her intent was.

She had participated in bombings, bank
robberies.

And we felt, how could somebody have a
gun at the back of your head for a year

and a half?

David Bancroft, who was kind of the
number three guy there, was a big

many respects.

Dave Bancroft of the U .S. Attorney's
Office was assigned to cross -examine

defense experts and put on the
government's experts.

The defense put on three psychiatrists,
Charlie West, Robert Lifton and

Martin Orne.

The doctors took over. All of these
people had a specialty in

brainwashing. Lifton, perhaps, more than
any of the others.

With Dr. Lifton, whose focus was his
research with respect to prisoners of

war who come out after months and years
of confinement and who express some

sympathy with their captors.

But cite me the case where by virtue of
what you call coercive persuasion,

the subject went out and took up arms
and committed an act

of violence against their own kind. And
they had to answer because it is the

case. There are no such instances.

Her capture and confinement, her
brutalization.

was coupled with indoctrination.

Clearly they intended to convert her to
their way of thinking. No question about

that. She had no volition. The dominance
of her captors allowed for only one

excuse, that she was involuntarily
accepting of the point of view of her

captors.

The script for the defense had been
written by Dr.

Julian West.

He would say things like, well, the
reason she said that in jail, she was

fearful of the presence of Emily Harris,
who was right there in the same room.

When we pointed out to Dr. West that
Emily Harris, by the jail records, was

nowhere in that room, his answer was,
well, I find that interesting too. That

shows what a powerful presence she was.
Patty thought she was there.

No matter which way the evidence was
going, he was going to go and find that

was being coercively persuaded.

This is not beyond understanding at all.

Like many 19 -year -olds, she's open to
new and different experiences.

The sense of adventure, wanting to do
something significant, totally

Not skiing in Switzerland.

This is not skiing in Switzerland.

The Stockholm Syndrome is probably the
term most familiar to the public in

connection with brainwashing cases.

There is this idea of Stockholm
Syndrome, which came from a bank robbery

Stockholm, Sweden.

Over time, the people who were held
hostage begin to identify with their

Stockholm Syndrome takes you about one
-eighth of the way. Stockholm Syndrome

is, I'm here, you got me, I'm a captive.

I got to make the best of this.

But that's fundamentally different than
saying, you know what, I really dig what

you're doing.

By the way, it would have been a real
achievement.

It would be the first time ever to
succeed, and the SLA had no training in

never pretended to have any training in
this.

Some have said that the SLA had no
expertise in brainwashing, and

Donald DeVries, the leader.

That is nonsense.

He had studied the North Korean
methodology.

He knew enough to abuse her to the point
where she would do most anything she

was told to do.

We weren't brainwashers. We weren't
trained in the

techniques similar to ones used on me
and my fellow Marines in boot camp.

That was brainwashing.

That's breaking you down to nothing and
then building you back up again. That

never happened.

Bailey was a Marine pilot, and he's
always had a wild hair up his ass about,

know, some Manchurian candidate
circumstance.

And it's kind of an obsession. It's his
fucking white whale.

The key strategic judgment that Bailey
made was to put Patty Hearst on the

stand. By the time she took the witness
stand, she was well out of her cocoon

and wanted to name the people who had
abused her so badly.

56 days in the closet with other kinds
of abuse that turned her into

an urban gorilla.

We needed her for that.

She was brutalized, humiliated, raped.

Coming out from behind the emotional
upheaval which had to take place in her

mind was very, very difficult for her to
do.

I'm in the courtroom and she is saying
that she was raped by Willie Wolf first

and then Sinque.

And I'm trying to be expressionless, but
I'm sure I was taken aback by

how blatant she was in her statements.

She came out directly and claimed to be
raped. She used the R word. These were

all absolutely false claims.

It is simply important to point out that
one of the very few areas where there

is a complete disagreement about what
happened is the issue of rape.

There were two...

possible subjects for any notion of
rape. One was DeVries, and the other was

Willie Wolf, known as Cujo. She did have
sexual relations with Willie Wolf, but

that was significantly consensual.

According to Patty, on an SLA tape, they
had a love for each other that they've

never had for anybody else.

Cujo was the gentlest, most beautiful
man I've ever known.

We loved each other so much.

Neither Kujo or I had ever loved an
individual the way we loved each other.

But then Patty, in her testimony when
she was on the stand, said that he raped

her. That she hated him.

Patty's version of what happened is very
straightforward.

Is that at one point, Willie Wolf simply
walked into the closet and raped her.

And at another point, DeFries did the
same thing.

I do not believe she had consensual sex
with Willie Wolf because I think she was

ordered to do so. The fact that she did
not physically resist him under her

circumstances is not a case I would want
to take before a jury and say it was

consensual.

She was in a situation of undue
influence at that point.

Kept in a closet and blindfolded.

That, in my mind, is sheer rape. The
fact that she may have later engaged in

relationship with him is a completely
different matter.

The surviving members of the SLA say she
was in love with Willie

Wolf. And then they point to her actions
later in the story as confirming

their belief that she did, in fact, fall
in love with Willie Wolf.

I don't think she was raped when she was
kidnapped.

Most of the people in the group were
women and they were feminists. They were

strong women.

And I can't imagine that that would have
been allowed.

The idea that these women would allow
Patricia Hearst, no matter what her

situation, to be raped by men in the
group is really ludicrous. It offends

I probably tend to believe Patty more
than I would Bill and Emily Harris.

If Patty says she was raped, I think
there's a good chance she was raped. I

that these women were feminists, but it
just seems to me feminists don't kidnap

a young woman who's 19.

People rationalize behaviors based on
their overarching ideology.

they would have rationalized in their
minds that this was not rape. Because

they had sex with other men, they didn't
see it as rape. They saw it as one of

the tenets of their organization of
getting rid of monogamy.

But they weren't putting themselves in
the shoes of Patty Hearst, who was being

held captive in a closet.

How about sex?

Now, we know that they raped you.

By the time they had gotten around to
this, I'd been in the closet for several

weeks or a month, and that was kind of
the least of what I was afraid they were

going to do to me at that point. And I
just, I almost didn't care. It was one

more humiliation.

I was taken into the bathroom by them,
watched every second. You know, you

couldn't do anything alone.

So this was kind of one other thing
that, you know, I hoped might even...

you know, prolong my life. It was almost
nothing at that point.

The captors, the kidnappers of Patricia
Hearst were violent, violent people.

To accuse them of rape would be
incongruity with other things they had

of a terrible nature.

No one raped Patricia Hearst, ever.

If somebody had sexually assaulted
Hearst, someone among us would have

shot them.

Bill and Emily Harris were willing to
admit everything that they did with

to Patty Hearst, that they kidnapped
her, that Patty was unwilling at first.

As soon as she claimed the rape, we were
no longer supporting her defense.

She crossed the line.

In light of her claim on the witness
stand.

that she was sexually assaulted, that
established the breach between the two

them. We wouldn't have gotten involved
if she hadn't claimed that she was

There's no way that we were going to
accept that as a strategy, so we had to

counter it.

Among the targets of Patricia Hearst's
accusations yesterday were Emily and

William Harris.

We've been monsterized plenty, but now
we're rapists on top of that.

And it's not true.

Well, we set the record straight there.

Bill and Emily gave an interview to a
magazine called New Times.

And they were confronted by the
journalist with the question of, how do

Patty wasn't raped by Willie Wolf?

And Emily said to the reporter, well,
she loved Willie Wolf.

In fact, she carried with her.

For a year afterwards, this little charm
that that Willie gave her.

Jim was really good at reading
everything he could about the case. So

reading this article by Emily and Bill
Harris.

And Emily stated that Willie Wolf had
given Patty

a token of his love.

It's called an Olmec monkey.

We heard about this old McMonkey on the
SLA tape.

The pigs probably have the little old
McMonkey that Cujo wore around his neck.

He gave me the little stone face one
night.

When she was arrested, the old McMonkey
that Willie Wolf gave her was in her

purse. We did not realize the
significance of this.

It looked like a stone or a rock.

We didn't know it was, quote -unquote,
the old McMonkey. I was in the

Jim passes this article by Emily and
Bill Harris to me and says, you know,

a note, what do you think?

And I just wrote back to him, no woman
would carry a token

of a rapist.

He went, yeah, that's right. What woman
would carry a momentum of a rapist?

So we got the case agent, said, hey,
listen, I want you to go downstairs to

evidence room.

We're looking for this necklace.

He came upstairs and said, we got it.

And then we contacted the L .A. Police
Department and found that Willie Wolf

have it, and it was found under his body
when he died.

This gift meant something to her because
it really meant something to Willie.

It's the only thing she had left of him.

How else would anybody interpret this?

As a happenstance?

As just, you know, I forgot about it, it
was in my purse for a year and a half?

Not reasonable.

This evidence came in, it was one of the
last exhibits to come in to the jury.

It was a significant point in the trial.

Bailey had put Patty on the stand so
that the jurors could hear in her own

the terror of the kidnapping.

That was the upside for the defense of
putting her on the stand. But there was

very substantial downside, too. In the
course of that examination, Patty ended

up testifying to certain circumstances
that took place in the

next year and a half.

And we felt, I know sitting at the
prosecution table, holy caroly, he's

the door.

Judge Carter ruled without question that
there would be no questions during the

trial for the Hibernia bank robbery
about the robbery in Carmichael.

Bailey and Johnson have said for years
that the reason they put Patty Hearst on

the stand is that they had a ruling from
the judge that the cross -examination

would be limited.

just to the bank robbery and the
kidnapping.

That is not true.

The judge never ruled that we were not
entitled to ask these questions about

what happened after the bank robbery.
There was never any earlier ruling upon

which the defense relied. And indeed,
having testified in your own behalf, you

can no longer invoke the Fifth Amendment
on cross -examination. If a defendant

voluntarily takes the stand...

She cannot pick and choose the questions
that she wants to answer.

Now comes the time for Patty to answer
to our questions about certain things

that happened during the year and a
half.

Bailey is confronted with the
possibility of his client answering

under oath about the death of Myrna
Opsal.

If she has to answer those questions,
she's essentially confessing to her

involvement in a crime that could expose
her to the death penalty.

Lee, in particular, but Al became quite
blustery.

Defense lawyer Lee Bailey angrily
objected, asking that the trial be

Judge Oliver Carter, red -faced,
pointing, nobody made her take the

stand, you opened this up.

And then he warned Ms. Hurst of future
punishment for contempt unless she

responded. Jim decided he should be the
one to cross -examine Patty Hurst. When

I instructed her to take the Fifth
Amendment and Judge Carter ordered her

answer, her goose was cooked.

The jury watches Patty Hearst take the
Fifth.

Juries don't like that.

It's always damaging when you have a
witness on the stand and they take the

Fifth Amendment because the inference is
they have something to hide.

The jury was shown the whole scenario
for 42 sequential times.

The prosecutor, do you see this
notebook?

Ms. Hearst, I refuse to answer.

The prosecutor, you won't even tell us
whether you see the documents in front

you? Miss Hurst, I refuse to answer.

That ruling destroyed the entire
defense.

It gave a wonderful springboard to say,
in essence, to the jury, she's always

been a defiant child.

And look here.

And it killed us.

People wanted Patty to do jail time.

She was more unpopular than the Boston
Strangler. Her class privilege was what

was going to protect her.

We had one more issue of which we could
be prosecuted.

It was a nightmare that we had to
revisit.

It was so cold. It didn't matter what
they did to anybody. They were always

right. Her family, by this time, didn't
want her to do any time.

No one is above the law, no matter how
rich and powerful.