Original subtitles

This programme contains strong language,

This programme contains strong language,

and detailed discussions about suicide and mental health

and detailed discussions about suicide and mental health

The officers could hear Dawn crying.

The officers could hear Dawn crying.

They went up to Adam's room.

One of the officers and Dawn were trying to resuscitate him.

One of the officers and Dawn were trying to resuscitate him.

One of the officers and Dawn were trying to resuscitate him.

And then, paramedics pronounced...

And then, paramedics pronounced...

..pronounced, er...

..said he'd gone.

It was disbelief and shock.

It was disbelief and shock.

They'd searched his room,

they took away Adam's mobile phone,

they took away Adam's mobile phone,

and they took a glass and a teaspoon.

and they took a glass and a teaspoon.

Day or two later, Dawn went back into the bedroom.

Day or two later, Dawn went back into the bedroom.

Day or two later, Dawn went back into the bedroom.

She was looking for answers.

She was looking for answers.

Why? How?

Why? How?

She looked in the bedside cabinet,

She looked in the bedside cabinet,

were two sachets.

We had no idea what was to come.

We had no idea what was to come.

When I started looking into this story,

When I started looking into this story,

I didn't think it would lead to this.

I didn't think it would lead to this.

I discovered hundreds of deaths, dozens of countries,

I discovered hundreds of deaths, dozens of countries,

a deadly poison being sold all over the world.

a deadly poison being sold all over the world.

What do you think the chances are that it will kill me?

What do you think the chances are that it will kill me?

ON PHONE:There's a very, very high probability.

ON PHONE:There's a very, very high probability.

People can die.

People in the US have died, people in Canada have died.

People in the US have died, people in Canada have died.

I'd be careful.

I'd be careful.

I had to find Kenneth Law.

After the undercover call with Kenneth Law,

After the undercover call with Kenneth Law,

I was enormously shocked.

He was being incredibly reckless and open.

He was being incredibly reckless and open.

It clearly didn't cross his mind

that he could be speaking to a journalist.

that he could be speaking to a journalist.

And this is why I created some avenue of escape,

And this is why I created some avenue of escape,

so that people, if they are in such a circumstance,

so that people, if they are in such a circumstance,

can undertake it.

People might not consider what I do as being very favourable,

People might not consider what I do as being very favourable,

or, in fact, even criminal.

or, in fact, even criminal.

But I figured it's helpful because simply,

But I figured it's helpful because simply,

the laws of our society doesn't permit it.

the laws of our society doesn't permit it.

Kenneth Law told us people in the UK were some of

Kenneth Law told us people in the UK were some of

his most frequent buyers.

his most frequent buyers.

He said his customers had some physical

He said his customers had some physical

or old-age-related illness.

or old-age-related illness.

However, I had significant doubts

as to whether those were his primary customers.

as to whether those were his primary customers.

I only knew of Tom Parfitt, who was younger

I only knew of Tom Parfitt, who was younger

and had mental health issues.

That's very different to terminally-ill patients.

That's very different to terminally-ill patients.

I wanted to find out what the truth was,

I wanted to find out what the truth was,

whether his customers were indeed older, and had physical

whether his customers were indeed older, and had physical

or terminal illnesses, or whether they were younger

or terminal illnesses, or whether they were younger

and had mental health illness.

and had mental health illness.

There's no centralised system that you can go to

There's no centralised system that you can go to

There's no centralised system that you can go to

and look up poison deaths.

It just doesn't exist.

It just doesn't exist.

I was spending hours, searching through

Prevention of Future Deaths reports,

trying to uncover poisoning deaths,

trying to uncover poisoning deaths,

going through, line by line,

to see if Kenneth Law was mentioned.

It was a struggle to find victims connected to Kenneth Law.

It was a struggle to find victims connected to Kenneth Law.

We were gathering momentum.

I was starting to get a bird's-eye view.

I was starting to get a bird's-eye view.

Felt like nobody else had that vantage point.

Felt like nobody else had that vantage point.

Four months into our investigation,

I was finally able to link seven deaths to Kenneth Law's poison,

I was finally able to link seven deaths to Kenneth Law's poison,

I was finally able to link seven deaths to Kenneth Law's poison,

and I suspected there must be at least dozens of other deaths

and I suspected there must be at least dozens of other deaths

connected to him.

Kip! Beth!

Kip, Kip, Kip, come on!

Kip, Kip, Kip, come on!

Hello. Hello. Oh, you're all wet!

Hello. Hello. Oh, you're all wet!

I'm married to Dawn, Adam's mother.

I'm married to Dawn, Adam's mother.

I'm his stepmother.

Adam and Dawn were the closest of close mother and child

Adam and Dawn were the closest of close mother and child

Adam and Dawn were the closest of close mother and child

that I have ever, ever experienced.

that I have ever, ever experienced.

Adam is the most nonjudgmental person I have ever met.

Adam is the most nonjudgmental person I have ever met.

Adam is the most nonjudgmental person I have ever met.

He's...

He was - and I hate saying "he was" -

He was - and I hate saying "he was" -

He was - and I hate saying "he was" -

but pure, very kind,

incredibly kind, and so wise.

incredibly kind, and so wise.

He had a kind of a... an aura about him.

He had a kind of a... an aura about him.

He had a kind of a... an aura about him.

The ripple effect of suicide is immense.

The ripple effect of suicide is immense.

For Dawn and Paul, his mum and dad,

For Dawn and Paul, his mum and dad,

it's indescribable.

He was so loved.

Straight away, after Dawn found the packages,

Straight away, after Dawn found the packages,

Paul took them down to the police station.

Paul took them down to the police station.

The officer said, "Oh, yeah, we've seen that before" -

The officer said, "Oh, yeah, we've seen that before" -

as in elsewhere.

as in elsewhere.

What do you mean? What happened?

What do you mean? What happened?

But he didn't elaborate.

And that was the last we heard for several months.

And that was the last we heard for several months.

It makes me very angry and very frustrated...

It makes me very angry and very frustrated...

..the fact that the police had seen this substance before,

..the fact that the police had seen this substance before,

..the fact that the police had seen this substance before,

and then, not put two and two together to think,

and then, not put two and two together to think,

"Well, you know, we've seen this at other incidents before,

"Well, you know, we've seen this at other incidents before,

"there must be some connection - what is that connection?"

"there must be some connection - what is that connection?"

Because I'd worked in the police, I knew how busy they are,

Because I'd worked in the police, I knew how busy they are,

Because I'd worked in the police, I knew how busy they are,

but nobody's looked deeper into it.

Somebody higher up the chain somewhere should have

Somebody higher up the chain somewhere should have

put two and two together.

If I look back, in Tom's case, I think that

If I look back, in Tom's case, I think that

the police lacked curiosity,

the police lacked curiosity,

they lacked the information to link cases together,

they lacked the information to link cases together,

despite having processes to do so.

despite having processes to do so.

It seems obvious to me that

It seems obvious to me that

they should've pieced this together.

they should've pieced this together.

If people had taken action, maybe Tom would still be with us.

If people had taken action, maybe Tom would still be with us.

I can't remember having any visits from the police.

I can't remember having any visits from the police.

I can't remember having any visits from the police.

Was just classed as a suicide,

Was just classed as a suicide,

and that was it.

Just makes me, like, just so angry

Just makes me, like, just so angry

Just makes me, like, just so angry

that he didn't get stopped before,

that he didn't get stopped before,

and he could've been stopped sooner, yeah.

and he could've been stopped sooner, yeah.

It's not just us, right,

It's not just us, right,

it's like happened to so many other people.

it's like happened to so many other people.

it's like happened to so many other people.

OFF-CAMERA: Have you lost your faith in the police?

OFF-CAMERA: Have you lost your faith in the police?

Right now, I have no faith in the police.

Right now, I have no faith in the police.

And I hate saying that, but to be on the receiving end of a crime,

And I hate saying that, but to be on the receiving end of a crime,

And I hate saying that, but to be on the receiving end of a crime,

And I hate saying that, but to be on the receiving end of a crime,

and to see the lack of support, to experience the lack of support...

and to see the lack of support, to experience the lack of support...

..is very, very upsetting.

The investigation was definitely ramping up.

The investigation was definitely ramping up.

We had at least seven deaths connected to Kenneth Law.

We had at least seven deaths connected to Kenneth Law.

We had his admission that hundreds in the UK had purchased from him,

We had his admission that hundreds in the UK had purchased from him,

and that many, many, many, many had died.

and that many, many, many, many had died.

We knew most of his customers were young.

We knew most of his customers were young.

They weren't 80-year-olds,

They weren't 80-year-olds,

people with terminal illnesses looking to end their lives.

people with terminal illnesses looking to end their lives.

They were 18-year-old people with mental health problems.

They were 18-year-old people with mental health problems.

Instead of being helped,

they were ushered towards someone who took advantage of them.

they were ushered towards someone who took advantage of them.

they were ushered towards someone who took advantage of them.

And yet, nothing is being done about it.

And yet, nothing is being done about it.

The pressure was on to track him down and find him.

The pressure was on to track him down and find him.

This programme contains strong language,

This programme contains strong language,

and detailed discussions about suicide and mental health

and detailed discussions about suicide and mental health

Dan was in the mental health hospital, under section.

Dan was in the mental health hospital, under section.

But the hospital didn't inform us that he'd been released.

But the hospital didn't inform us that he'd been released.

But the hospital didn't inform us that he'd been released.

We had no idea.

And they just let him go.

And, less than two hours, he'd taken this substance.

And, less than two hours, he'd taken this substance.

And, less than two hours, he'd taken this substance.

He was a very caring person,

he wanted to be a paramedic.

He wanted a job not for the money, for helping people.

He wanted a job not for the money, for helping people.

He had so much to give to the world.

He had so much to give to the world.

So, we kept all of Dan's things.

So, we kept all of Dan's things.

So, we kept all of Dan's things.

We haven't been able to throw anything away at all.

We haven't been able to throw anything away at all.

Erm...

This is actually the packaging that the substance came in.

This is actually the packaging that the substance came in.

This is actually the packaging that the substance came in.

The packaging actually says "the contents".

The packaging actually says "the contents".

Here, we have...

Here, we have...

..the Prevention of Future Deaths report by the coroner

..the Prevention of Future Deaths report by the coroner

..the Prevention of Future Deaths report by the coroner

that lists multiple failings by the NHS.

that lists multiple failings by the NHS.

It says on here that he, Dan, was discharged at 17.55,

It says on here that he, Dan, was discharged at 17.55,

It says on here that he, Dan, was discharged at 17.55,

and the first 999 phone call was at 20.39,

and the first 999 phone call was at 20.39,

and the first 999 phone call was at 20.39,

a short time after he'd taken the substance,

a short time after he'd taken the substance,

and then, again at 20.53,

and then, again at 20.53,

when he'd gone unconscious.

when he'd gone unconscious.

After the second call, the ambulance was very quick.

After the second call, the ambulance was very quick.

But a lot of ambulance workers, mental health workers,

But a lot of ambulance workers, mental health workers,

a lot of them don't know about this substance.

a lot of them don't know about this substance.

They were trying to save him, I know,

They were trying to save him, I know,

but I don't think they knew what they were dealing with.

but I don't think they knew what they were dealing with.

I was enormously shocked by the sheer scale

I was enormously shocked by the sheer scale

of Kenneth Law's operation.

of Kenneth Law's operation.

I thought people might be discussing the poison on social media.

I thought people might be discussing the poison on social media.

I thought people might be discussing the poison on social media.

However, I could barely find anybody talking about it,

However, I could barely find anybody talking about it,

aside from one lady in America called Lynn.

aside from one lady in America called Lynn.

OFF-CAMERA:Wonderhood interview.

When James Beal first reached out,

When James Beal first reached out,

for me, it was like,

I finally have somebody here

I finally have somebody here

who actually sees what we are seeing.

who actually sees what we are seeing.

Lynn told me that her daughter

Lynn told me that her daughter

had been active on the suicide forum,

had been active on the suicide forum,

investigating poison sellers.

investigating poison sellers.

And they'd been approached by an account called Greenberg.

And they'd been approached by an account called Greenberg.

He'd sent her the link to Kenneth Law's website.

He'd sent her the link to Kenneth Law's website.

He'd sent her the link to Kenneth Law's website.

Both Lynn and her daughter had been tracking Greenberg,

Both Lynn and her daughter had been tracking Greenberg,

trying to find links between him and Kenneth Law.

trying to find links between him and Kenneth Law.

There's only a few users that you will see repeatedly talking

There's only a few users that you will see repeatedly talking

There's only a few users that you will see repeatedly talking

in this forum.

And Greenberg was definitely a resource of knowledge

And Greenberg was definitely a resource of knowledge

And Greenberg was definitely a resource of knowledge

for suicide methods.

In his description avatar, there was a Blogspot.

In his description avatar, there was a Blogspot.

In his description avatar, there was a Blogspot.

He had A very short bio that explained he was

He had A very short bio that explained he was

a retired pathologist based in New York.

a retired pathologist based in New York.

He would be on a lot of the informational mega threads

He would be on a lot of the informational mega threads

He would be on a lot of the informational mega threads

for certain methods for suicide.

for certain methods for suicide.

And he would be very frequently on the one that was about the poison.

And he would be very frequently on the one that was about the poison.

I mean, hundreds and hundreds of posts.

I mean, hundreds and hundreds of posts.

He would very clinically, and, in a kind of trustworthy way,

He would very clinically, and, in a kind of trustworthy way,

He would very clinically, and, in a kind of trustworthy way,

praise these websites that Kenneth Law runs.

praise these websites that Kenneth Law runs.

"It's the best place to buy from, they're trustworthy."

"It's the best place to buy from, they're trustworthy."

People would regard his opinion very highly.

People would regard his opinion very highly.

I don't know about you,

but if a doctor tells me something is trustworthy,

but if a doctor tells me something is trustworthy,

and that I should, you know, purchase from it,

and that I should, you know, purchase from it,

I'm more inclined to purchase from that than I am

I'm more inclined to purchase from that than I am

to purchase from another source.

to purchase from another source.

It was just an awful thought,

It was just an awful thought,

that this person, in my mind,

that this person, in my mind,

is intentionally funnelling people through to Kenneth Law

is intentionally funnelling people through to Kenneth Law

is intentionally funnelling people through to Kenneth Law

for them to end their life.

So, the question is, was there more of

So, the question is, was there more of

an official relationship between the two?

an official relationship between the two?

Maybe they're thinking,

"Hey, this is a great way to make money."

"Hey, this is a great way to make money."

Maybe these two are working together.

Maybe these two are working together.

So...Dan had posted where he could get this substance from,

So...Dan had posted where he could get this substance from,

So...Dan had posted where he could get this substance from,

So...Dan had posted where he could get this substance from,

and this person called Greenberg,

and this person called Greenberg,

but with a cute little dog as his profile picture,

but with a cute little dog as his profile picture,

private messaged him with the company

private messaged him with the company

that he'd bought the substance from.

that he'd bought the substance from.

God, do you know what? I've never seen this before.

God, do you know what? I've never seen this before.

I-I presume that that's a tag line.

I-I presume that that's a tag line.

"When life is mellow, we drink from its cup to the last drop.

"When life is mellow, we drink from its cup to the last drop.

"When life is mellow, we drink from its cup to the last drop.

"When made, sour those with courage deliberately spill what remains.

"When made, sour those with courage deliberately spill what remains.

"When made, sour those with courage deliberately spill what remains.

"When God fires you in life, you say, 'No, I quit.'

"When God fires you in life, you say, 'No, I quit.'

"To be handed the reins to one's destiny

"To be handed the reins to one's destiny

"is empowering and cathartic."

To me, that tag line is encouraging suicide.

To me, that tag line is encouraging suicide.

Y-You know I-I try not... not to think too much,

Y-You know I-I try not... not to think too much,

but when I do and I think about the actual what happened,

but when I do and I think about the actual what happened,

I-I get that sick feeling, it's just awful.

I-I get that sick feeling, it's just awful.

And it doesn't go away, it doesn't get better.

And it doesn't go away, it doesn't get better.

And Greenberg sent, on this site,

And Greenberg sent, on this site,

1,062 messages.

1,062 messages.

OFF-CAMERA:Wow, that's a hell of a lot of messages.

OFF-CAMERA:Wow, that's a hell of a lot of messages.

Yeah.

Five months into our investigation, we were making progress.

Five months into our investigation, we were making progress.

The investigation was changing from day to day, almost.

The investigation was changing from day to day, almost.

I decided it was time,

we needed to get in front of him.

So, I boarded a plane to Canada to try and track him down.

So, I boarded a plane to Canada to try and track him down.

There was a team of us that went out to Canada,

There was a team of us that went out to Canada,

it was me and Richard, a photographer at The Times.

it was me and Richard, a photographer at The Times.

And we also joined up with an audio producer on the ground.

And we also joined up with an audio producer on the ground.

When you're on the ground, it's a delicate balance.

When you're on the ground, it's a delicate balance.

You have to create a certain amount of waves,

You have to create a certain amount of waves,

speaking to people who might know him,

speaking to people who might know him,

people who might know where he works and lives.

people who might know where he works and lives.

But at the same time, you don't want to give them

But at the same time, you don't want to give them

an excuse to get away.

I knew that I only had one shot to find Kenneth Law.

I knew that I only had one shot to find Kenneth Law.

I knew that I only had one shot to find Kenneth Law.

I suspected that Kenneth Law worked as a cook

I suspected that Kenneth Law worked as a cook

at the Fairmont Royal York Hotel,

at the Fairmont Royal York Hotel,

so we decided to make that the main focus of our investigation.

so we decided to make that the main focus of our investigation.

so we decided to make that the main focus of our investigation.

I went and spoke to an employee of the hotel, and said,

I went and spoke to an employee of the hotel, and said,

"I'm looking to speak to Kenneth Law about a serious matter.

"I'm looking to speak to Kenneth Law about a serious matter.

"I'm looking to speak to Kenneth Law about a serious matter.

"Can you bring him out?"

Two people in chef whites come out.

Two people in chef whites come out.

They confirm that he is a cook at the hotel.

They confirm that he is a cook at the hotel.

But they tell me that he's on holiday for another five days.

But they tell me that he's on holiday for another five days.

It's extremely frustrating to know you're really close,

It's extremely frustrating to know you're really close,

but you know it only takes one conversation with somebody,

but you know it only takes one conversation with somebody,

speaking to one friend, one family member

speaking to one friend, one family member

to be able to track down Kenneth Law.

I first met Kenneth when we were in college at George Brown.

I first met Kenneth when we were in college at George Brown.

I first met Kenneth when we were in college at George Brown.

But then, we met again at work.

But then, we met again at work.

And I remember just being like,

"Yo! I know you." SHE LAUGHS

"Yo! I know you." SHE LAUGHS

I would've been in my early 20s.

I would've been in my early 20s.

We were working at the Fairmont Royal York, in Toronto, as chefs.

We were working at the Fairmont Royal York, in Toronto, as chefs.

I didn't really got to know him much, but back then,

I didn't really got to know him much, but back then,

Kenneth seemed a little shy.

Kenneth seemed a little shy.

But he really wanted to be the best chef that he can be,

But he really wanted to be the best chef that he can be,

But he really wanted to be the best chef that he can be,

and I think he really took that to heart.

and I think he really took that to heart.

and I think he really took that to heart.

He, yeah, just seemed like a really happy person.

He, yeah, just seemed like a really happy person.

I do remember him talking a little bit about his past.

I do remember him talking a little bit about his past.

I do remember him talking a little bit about his past.

Something tells me it's, like, in computers,

or something like that.

He mentioned about how either his mum or dad was sick,

He mentioned about how either his mum or dad was sick,

and he was trying to help them out.

and he was trying to help them out.

He was always bubbly, he was supportive,

He was always bubbly, he was supportive,

he was nice, he was curious.

he was nice, he was curious.

I would think that he would want to help people get better,

I would think that he would want to help people get better,

rather than helping them ending their lives.

rather than helping them ending their lives.

Yeah.

After speaking to the two chefs,

After speaking to the two chefs,

we knew that he wasn't going to be at the hotel,

we knew that he wasn't going to be at the hotel,

so we decide to utilise the only real lead we have left,

so we decide to utilise the only real lead we have left,

so we decide to utilise the only real lead we have left,

which is the PO Box in Mississauga.

which is the PO Box in Mississauga.

Inside the Post Office, I approach one of the workers

Inside the Post Office, I approach one of the workers

Inside the Post Office, I approach one of the workers

and ask about Kenneth Law.

They told me that Kenneth Law comes in frequently.

They told me that Kenneth Law comes in frequently.

She produces a piece of paper with Kenneth Law's details on,

She produces a piece of paper with Kenneth Law's details on,

including his home address.

She sees my eyes dart towards it,

and she swiftly turns it over,

and I'm not able to see his address.

and I'm not able to see his address.

To this day, it's really hard to believe,

To this day, it's really hard to believe,

really hard to believe.

I-I have so many questions.

I-I have so many questions.

Like, oh, just mainly like, "What happened?

Like, oh, just mainly like, "What happened?

Like, "What, what...

Like, "What, what...

"What bought you to this?"

"What bought you to this?"

OFF-CAMERA:A British journalist, James Beal, called Kenneth Law.

OFF-CAMERA:A British journalist, James Beal, called Kenneth Law.

And I just wanted to play it to you,

And I just wanted to play it to you,

as someone who's met Kenneth and kind of knows him,

as someone who's met Kenneth and kind of knows him,

and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Yeah, I'm actually really curious.

Yeah, I'm actually really curious.

Hi, Ken it's John.

Hi, John, how you doing today?

Yeah, I'm good, how are you?

Yeah, I'm good, how are you?

So, you're interested in some products?

So, you're interested in some products?

I just wanted to be really sure about my purchase, basically.

I just wanted to be really sure about my purchase, basically.

I just wanted to be really sure about my purchase, basically.

Wh-What do you think the chances are that it will kill me?

Wh-What do you think the chances are that it will kill me?

Wh-What do you think the chances are that it will kill me?

I mean, it's a very, very high probability.

I mean, it's a very, very high probability.

So, you just tell the police that you don't know

So, you just tell the police that you don't know

why this person's bought it?

why this person's bought it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's even easier for me if I'm sending international, right?

It's even easier for me if I'm sending international, right?

So, the UK Government has no jurisdiction

So, the UK Government has no jurisdiction

to the Canadian government.

And then, they can't, you know, bring me over to the UK for this.

And then, they can't, you know, bring me over to the UK for this.

HE CHUCKLES WRYLY It's just not on.

OK, take good care of yourself. Thank you, bye.

OK, take good care of yourself. Thank you, bye.

Now I'm angry.

Now I'm angry.

TEARFULLY:That made, that's...

TEARFULLY:That made, that's...

SHE EXHALES Oh.

I don't know if it's just me being naive,

I don't know if it's just me being naive,

or just me trying to find good in the world, like,

or just me trying to find good in the world, like,

find good in everyone.

But to hear that...

But to hear that...

..knowing that he's like,

"All I ask of you is to destroy the evidence before you do it..."

"All I ask of you is to destroy the evidence before you do it..."

What the fuck?! Like...

What the fuck?! Like...

Oh, my God. SHE SNIFFLES

Oh, my God. SHE SNIFFLES

Ohh.

Like, it didn't seem to faze him that all these people are hurting.

Like, it didn't seem to faze him that all these people are hurting.

Like, it didn't seem to faze him that all these people are hurting.

Like, it didn't seem to faze him that all these people are hurting.

The fact that he said that you have a choice for life,

The fact that he said that you have a choice for life,

and you have a choice for death.

and you have a choice for death.

Who are you to play God?

Yeah, that just ruined every belief I had in him.

Yeah, that just ruined every belief I had in him.

Yeah, that just ruined every belief I had in him.

I would've never thought that he was capable

I would've never thought that he was capable

of hurting another human being.

of hurting another human being.

But he took the idea and ran with it.

But he took the idea and ran with it.

He didn't stop.

H-He wasn't going to stop.

This programme contains strong language,

This programme contains strong language,

and detailed discussions about suicide and mental health

and detailed discussions about suicide and mental health

I'd exhausted all the leads we had for Kenneth Law,

I'd exhausted all the leads we had for Kenneth Law,

so I was trying to make things happen in other ways.

so I was trying to make things happen in other ways.

PHONE LINE RINGS

I was trying to contact people that I suspected were family.

I was trying to contact people that I suspected were family.

People who knew him, local churches,

People who knew him, local churches,

local business leaders, local councillors,

local business leaders, local councillors,

anyone who might know him,

try and force a lead from somewhere. PHONE LINES RINGING

try and force a lead from somewhere. PHONE LINES RINGING

However, sometimes it's a case of sitting in one spot

However, sometimes it's a case of sitting in one spot

However, sometimes it's a case of sitting in one spot

and watching, and waiting.

We decide to go back to the PO Box in Mississauga.

We decide to go back to the PO Box in Mississauga.

I turn up at 8am.

I turn up at 8am.

It's a bitterly cold morning,

it's about minus three degrees outside.

it's about minus three degrees outside.

We just watch in hope, rather than expectation,

We just watch in hope, rather than expectation,

waiting for him to turn up.

After about six hours, everything changed.

After about six hours, everything changed.

A rusty old town car pulls up right outside the chemist.

A rusty old town car pulls up right outside the chemist.

A rusty old town car pulls up right outside the chemist.

Out steps a man wearing a baseball cap, tan chinos.

Out steps a man wearing a baseball cap, tan chinos.

Out steps a man wearing a baseball cap, tan chinos.

I recognise him straight away.

That's Kenneth Law.

He goes into the Post Office.

The best chance of getting him to talk is approaching him

The best chance of getting him to talk is approaching him

as he's coming out.

I had to make sure he didn't slip away.

I had to make sure he didn't slip away.

We waited quite a while for him.

He comes out of the Post Office,

He comes out of the Post Office,

this was my chance.

Hiya, Kenneth?

Hi, how are you? Kenneth Law, James Beal.

Hi, how are you? Kenneth Law, James Beal.

I-I'm a journalist.

Oh, what are you doing here?

Erm, I just wanted to ask you about Imtime Cuisine, Kenneth.

Erm, I just wanted to ask you about Imtime Cuisine, Kenneth.

Yes, erm, why don't you sit in my car?

Yes, erm, why don't you sit in my car?

It's a bit warmer, OK? Erm, OK.

It's a bit warmer, OK? Erm, OK.

Thank you.

How did you find me, first of all? Tracking me?

How did you find me, first of all? Tracking me?

We're not tracking you, Kenneth,

but we just wanted to ask you about...

but we just wanted to ask you about...

Where are you from, first of all?

I'm from The Times newspaper.

And so, can you not record this? OK.

And so, can you not record this? OK.

INDISTINCT

We've linked seven people who have taken their own lives...

We've linked seven people who have taken their own lives...

OK. ..up to seven because of your website.

OK. ..up to seven because of your website.

So, this is coming quite new,

I don't know why you came all the way from the UK, right,

I don't know why you came all the way from the UK, right,

to talk to me when you could call me on the phone.

to talk to me when you could call me on the phone.

Well, Kenneth, we actually spoke to you on the phone call, as well.

Well, Kenneth, we actually spoke to you on the phone call, as well.

What did I say to you? You told me on that call that

What did I say to you? You told me on that call that

some people might consider what you do to be criminal.

some people might consider what you do to be criminal.

You're assisting suicide, are you not?

Well, I'm not assisting anything, I'm selling a product, right?

Well, I'm not assisting anything, I'm selling a product, right?

But you know what people are using that product for.

I mean, like you know, I'm just telling you, yeah,

people do do this, but it's not my business, it's their life.

people do do this, but it's not my business, it's their life.

But you're providing them with a method to kill themselves.

But you're providing them with a method to kill themselves.

Er, no, you can buy a gun.

But you're still killing people.

No, no, no, no, no, they are kill...

No, no, no, no, no, they are kill...

They're committing suicide themselves. Right.

I mean, I'm not doing anything, I'm just selling a product.

I mean, I'm not doing anything, I'm just selling a product.

So, why are you doing it? Why...? Do you know that it's legal to sell?

So, why are you doing it? Why...? Do you know that it's legal to sell?

It's not legal to assist suicide. I'm not assisting.

It's not legal to assist suicide. I'm not assisting.

How are you not assisting?

You...It's your choice, I'm not forcing you to buy anything.

You...It's your choice, I'm not forcing you to buy anything.

What about Tom Parfitt, Ken? Can you please leave the car?

What about Tom Parfitt, Ken? Can you please leave the car?

Can you please leave the car? Tom...I will leave your car.

Can you please leave the car? Tom...I will leave your car.

OK, thank you, I'll see you later, right.

Tom Parfitt died after taking your chemical,

his dad, David, accuses you of effectively murdering his son.

his dad, David, accuses you of effectively murdering his son.

Well, I'm sorry, right, I mean, they had their intensions,

Well, I'm sorry, right, I mean, they had their intensions,

I cannot stop them.

Perhaps you might want to stop people from buying knives.

Perhaps you might want to stop people from buying knives.

UK has no jurisdiction here, goodbye.

UK has no jurisdiction here, goodbye.

I don't know how Kenneth Law justified to himself,

I don't know how Kenneth Law justified to himself,

I don't know how Kenneth Law justified to himself,

he said he was simply selling a product

he said he was simply selling a product

and it was up to others what they do with it.

and it was up to others what they do with it.

He took no responsibility for the fact that people had already died

He took no responsibility for the fact that people had already died

because of this poison,

and I knew he would continue to keep selling it

and I knew he would continue to keep selling it

if I didn't try and stop him.

After the confrontation with Kenneth,

After the confrontation with Kenneth,

I flew back to the UK to start preparing our investigation

I flew back to the UK to start preparing our investigation

for the newspaper.

Stories about suicide have to be handled extremely carefully,

Stories about suicide have to be handled extremely carefully,

extremely sensitively.

And, in a story of this magnitude,

you want everything to be accurate.

On the 25th of April, 2023,

On the 25th of April, 2023,

The Times published the investigation into Kenneth Law.

The Times published the investigation into Kenneth Law.

Police arrested Kenneth Law on May the 2nd, 2023,

Police arrested Kenneth Law on May the 2nd, 2023,

Police arrested Kenneth Law on May the 2nd, 2023,

exactly a week later.

Good evening. We want to warn you the information in this case

Good evening. We want to warn you the information in this case

is both disturbing and challenging to comprehend.

is both disturbing and challenging to comprehend.

Toronto Police, in the OPP,

issued a public safety alert warning today.

issued a public safety alert warning today.

An Ontario man alleged to have sold suicide kits around the globe.

An Ontario man alleged to have sold suicide kits around the globe.

PO Police say they've arrested 57-year-old Kenneth Law,

PO Police say they've arrested 57-year-old Kenneth Law,

of Mississauga, and charged him with two counts of counselling

of Mississauga, and charged him with two counts of counselling

and aiding in suicide.

and aiding in suicide.

We'd achieved absolutely what we'd set out to do,

We'd achieved absolutely what we'd set out to do,

to give some kind of accountability to the families

to give some kind of accountability to the families

that lost loved ones.

We're also learning, as part of this investigation,

We're also learning, as part of this investigation,

packages may have been shipped to 40 different countries -

packages may have been shipped to 40 different countries -

that's 4-0 - 40 different countries,

that's 4-0 - 40 different countries,

and more than 1,200 may have been shipped.

That was the moment that I knew w-we'd, got something.

That was the moment that I knew w-we'd, got something.

That was kind of validation for the work that we'd done

That was kind of validation for the work that we'd done

to get to that point.

Tonight, new charges against a Canadian man...

Tonight, new charges against a Canadian man...

He's now facing a dozen new charges based in Ontario alone.

He's now facing a dozen new charges based in Ontario alone.

I mean, it just makes your head explode, how crazy it is.

I mean, it just makes your head explode, how crazy it is.

This investigation becoming more international in its reach.

This investigation becoming more international in its reach.

Britain's National Crime Agency says 272 people ordered products

Britain's National Crime Agency says 272 people ordered products

Britain's National Crime Agency says 272 people ordered products

in a two-year period, with 88 customers dying.

in a two-year period, with 88 customers dying.

I couldn't believe how many people in different countries and states

I couldn't believe how many people in different countries and states

I couldn't believe how many people in different countries and states

that are going to go through what we're going through.

that are going to go through what we're going through.

Then you hear the numbers, you know,

Then you hear the numbers, you know,

it just got bigger and bigger.

it just got bigger and bigger.

..Is now facing new charges, 14 charges of second degree murder.

..Is now facing new charges, 14 charges of second degree murder.

..Is now facing new charges, 14 charges of second degree murder.

CTV News has learned the charges against Law have been upgraded.

CTV News has learned the charges against Law have been upgraded.

..Upgraded to first degree murder charges.

..Upgraded to first degree murder charges.

The scale of this, if he is found guilty,

The scale of this, if he is found guilty,

makes him one of the worst mass murderers ever.

makes him one of the worst mass murderers ever.

At this moment in time, I'm not sure what the outcome

At this moment in time, I'm not sure what the outcome

of Kenneth Law's trial in Canada will be.

of Kenneth Law's trial in Canada will be.

All indications are, so far, that he will plead not guilty.

All indications are, so far, that he will plead not guilty.

It's extremely difficult for the families,

It's extremely difficult for the families,

cos they are...kind of in limbo.

cos they are...kind of in limbo.

My son Ashtyn is one of the 14 cases

My son Ashtyn is one of the 14 cases

My son Ashtyn is one of the 14 cases

that Kenneth Law is charged with,

that Kenneth Law is charged with,

in the province of Ontario.

I'm always going to miss Ashtyn.

I'm always going to miss Ashtyn.

TEARFULLY:Every single day that I am here,

TEARFULLY:Every single day that I am here,

I will miss Ashtyn.

If anyone ever, ever, in my whole life, asks me,

If anyone ever, ever, in my whole life, asks me,

If anyone ever, ever, in my whole life, asks me,

"What is your worst nightmare?"

Burying a child is my answer.

Burying a child is my answer.

And now, it was my reality.

And now, it was my reality.

It ismy reality.

Every single day for the rest of my life, it's my reality.

Every single day for the rest of my life, it's my reality.

Every single day for the rest of my life, it's my reality.

We're coming up on two years since my son passed,

We're coming up on two years since my son passed,

We're coming up on two years since my son passed,

and five weeks beyond that was when I first learned of Kenneth Law.

and five weeks beyond that was when I first learned of Kenneth Law.

and five weeks beyond that was when I first learned of Kenneth Law.

The trial was moved to January 26,

The trial was moved to January 26,

so still now a year.

it's long, that's a long time.

it's long, that's a long time.

It's a, you know...

It's a, you know...

..you try to prepare yourself as best you can, erm, mentally.

..you try to prepare yourself as best you can, erm, mentally.

..you try to prepare yourself as best you can, erm, mentally.

And then, now, to push it off,

And then, now, to push it off,

and then, who knows what will happen from there?

and then, who knows what will happen from there?

OFF-CAMERA:What are you hoping the trial gives you?

OFF-CAMERA:What are you hoping the trial gives you?

Some...some sort of closure,

Some...some sort of closure,

a piece of the puzzle put together.

a piece of the puzzle put together.

Breathe. SHE CHUCKLES

Breathe. SHE CHUCKLES

Kenneth Law was originally arrested on suspicion of two counts

Kenneth Law was originally arrested on suspicion of two counts

Kenneth Law was originally arrested on suspicion of two counts

of aiding or counselling suicide.

of aiding or counselling suicide.

However, there have been several theories about why

However, there have been several theories about why

his charges were upgraded.

One of which is something that Lynn first mentioned to me

One of which is something that Lynn first mentioned to me

back in February 2023.

back in February 2023.

I do have a strong intuition, a hunch.

I do have a strong intuition, a hunch.

I do have a strong intuition, a hunch.

Something about Kenneth Law and Greenberg bothered me

Something about Kenneth Law and Greenberg bothered me

Something about Kenneth Law and Greenberg bothered me

that kept pushing me to find the answer.

that kept pushing me to find the answer.

Is there more of an official relationship between the two?

Is there more of an official relationship between the two?

Is there more of an official relationship between the two?

I felt those two were connected.

I felt those two were connected.

So, I go back to that forum, doing searches,

So, I go back to that forum, doing searches,

So, I go back to that forum, doing searches,

comparing the blog spot with Imtime Cuisine,

comparing the blog spot with Imtime Cuisine,

comparing the blog spot with Imtime Cuisine,

Ambuca, Esc Mode.

Ambuca, Esc Mode.

Then I saw something.

Then I saw something.

There's no way that you could've ever predicted

There's no way that you could've ever predicted

something like this, never.

something like this, never.

Right away, I began to put the pieces together

Right away, I began to put the pieces together

of how this was working.

of how this was working.

It was just another shock to add to the shock

It was just another shock to add to the shock

that we were already experiencing.

that we were already experiencing.

It was truly a holy-shit moment.

It was truly a holy-shit moment.

This programme contains strong language,

This programme contains strong language,

and detailed discussions about suicide and mental health

and detailed discussions about suicide and mental health

I remember, it was a Saturday morning.

I remember, it was a Saturday morning.

I was looking a little bit more into Greenberg,

I was looking a little bit more into Greenberg,

and some of his posts on the forum.

and some of his posts on the forum.

I was at home in my flat in South West London, working,

I was at home in my flat in South West London, working,

I was at home in my flat in South West London, working,

researching other stories.

And my mum just sends me a message.

And my mum just sends me a message.

I received a message from Lynn.

And she said...

.."Do you think Greenberg could be Kenneth Law?"

.."Do you think Greenberg could be Kenneth Law?"

I'm pretty sure I audibly said, "Holy shit.

I'm pretty sure I audibly said, "Holy shit.

I'm pretty sure I audibly said, "Holy shit.

"Could very well be."

It wouldn't surprise me if Kenneth Law

It wouldn't surprise me if Kenneth Law

was masquerading as Greenberg.

There are a number of factors that have convinced me of that

There are a number of factors that have convinced me of that

during my research and investigations.

during my research and investigations.

The dog that Greenberg had on his profile on the forum

The dog that Greenberg had on his profile on the forum

The dog that Greenberg had on his profile on the forum

looked like a Maltese.

looked like a Maltese.

And then, somewhere on the blog spot, he had talked about

And then, somewhere on the blog spot, he had talked about

And then, somewhere on the blog spot, he had talked about

how much he loved his Maltese.

how much he loved his Maltese.

And then, Kenneth Law spoke quite a bit about the reason why

And then, Kenneth Law spoke quite a bit about the reason why

he was hosting this website in the first place,

he was hosting this website in the first place,

was because he saw that his dog had access to euthanasia,

was because he saw that his dog had access to euthanasia,

but his mother did not.

And then, there was the cadence of his sentences,

And then, there was the cadence of his sentences,

the kind of air of intellectual prowess in the way that he wrote.

the kind of air of intellectual prowess in the way that he wrote.

the kind of air of intellectual prowess in the way that he wrote.

And there are these little things that are...

And there are these little things that are...

They match with each other, like,

They match with each other, like,

it is uncommon to see people refer to "catching the bus"

it is uncommon to see people refer to "catching the bus"

as CBT, rather than CTB.

as CBT, rather than CTB.

And on the Esc Mode website,

And on the Esc Mode website,

at the bottom, the few bullet points utilise the acronym CBT.

at the bottom, the few bullet points utilise the acronym CBT.

at the bottom, the few bullet points utilise the acronym CBT.

at the bottom, the few bullet points utilise the acronym CBT.

And similarly, on Greenberg's blog,

And similarly, on Greenberg's blog,

he referred to it as "wanting a CBT exit".

he referred to it as "wanting a CBT exit".

We know that the very same day that Kenneth Law put his poison

We know that the very same day that Kenneth Law put his poison

We know that the very same day that Kenneth Law put his poison

on sale on his website,

on sale on his website,

Greenberg posted about it on the suicide forum

Greenberg posted about it on the suicide forum

for the first time.

for the first time.

The very same day.

Greenberg would often promote the products

Greenberg would often promote the products

on Kenneth Law's websites

on Kenneth Law's websites

and denigrate the competition.

and denigrate the competition.

We also know that, the day after The Times wrote

We also know that, the day after The Times wrote

its first story on Kenneth Law,

its first story on Kenneth Law,

Greenberg's pro-suicide blog was taken down.

Greenberg's pro-suicide blog was taken down.

By pretending to be this doctor, a pathologist,

By pretending to be this doctor, a pathologist,

By pretending to be this doctor, a pathologist,

this trustworthy individual,

by pretending to be a third party

by pretending to be a third party

that has nothing to do with the sites,

that has nothing to do with the sites,

Kenneth Law would have a good standing on the forum

Kenneth Law would have a good standing on the forum

Kenneth Law would have a good standing on the forum

to funnel customers to his own website,

to funnel customers to his own website,

so that he would be the most trusted source for the poison.

so that he would be the most trusted source for the poison.

He is a predator on that site, an absolute predator.

He is a predator on that site, an absolute predator.

I would describe him as an odious little creep

I would describe him as an odious little creep

I would describe him as an odious little creep

I would describe him as an odious little creep

who has some...

who has some...

..belief that he is entitled to play God.

..belief that he is entitled to play God.

..belief that he is entitled to play God.

There's no words that could describe

There's no words that could describe

what I feel about that man, and what he's done.

what I feel about that man, and what he's done.

what I feel about that man, and what he's done.

No words at all.

You want answers,

You want answers,

and you want justice for your baby.

and you want justice for your baby.

I guess...I don't know what to expect any more.

I guess...I don't know what to expect any more.

I'm hoping there will be justice.

I just think that every single victim of his,

I just think that every single victim of his,

no matter which country in the world,

no matter which country in the world,

there should be retribution for every single one of them.

there should be retribution for every single one of them.

There's Miles again. THEY CHUCKLE

There's Miles again. THEY CHUCKLE

This is Miles giving me a kiss on the forehead.

This is Miles giving me a kiss on the forehead.

That's so sweet.

He loved his little sister.

We owe everything to the families in this case.

We owe everything to the families in this case.

If David Parfitt in particular hadn't approached me in 2022,

If David Parfitt in particular hadn't approached me in 2022,

If David Parfitt in particular hadn't approached me in 2022,

we wouldn't be here now.

And I don't think Kenneth Law would be where he is now.

And I don't think Kenneth Law would be where he is now.

Anybody who has somebody die of suicide blames themselves,

Anybody who has somebody die of suicide blames themselves,

Anybody who has somebody die of suicide blames themselves,

whether it's friends, colleagues, relatives,

whether it's friends, colleagues, relatives,

whether it's friends, colleagues, relatives,

you do think, "What could I have done?"

you do think, "What could I have done?"

But there's so many things that all add to this

But there's so many things that all add to this

as the perfect storm.

The forum is still running,

and there is still a lot of things that need to change

and there is still a lot of things that need to change

and there is still a lot of things that need to change

that haven't yet.

that haven't yet.

Still have an account on the forum

and consistently, I'm talking daily, you'll see people say,

and consistently, I'm talking daily, you'll see people say,

and consistently, I'm talking daily, you'll see people say,

"Oh, I received my poison.

"All I had to do is pay for shipping and wait for it to clear Customs."

"All I had to do is pay for shipping and wait for it to clear Customs."

Still widely available.

Still widely available.

We need to do more, legally.

We need to do more, legally.

If a company wants to sell you something,

If a company wants to sell you something,

there are going to be no checks,

there going to be no safety measures.

there going to be no safety measures.

Our laws and our legal processes, and our regulation,

Our laws and our legal processes, and our regulation,

their lack of safety, lack of control's

their lack of safety, lack of control's

enabling this type of trade.

There are other people like Kenneth Law still selling this poison,

There are other people like Kenneth Law still selling this poison,

other people are still dying,

and nothing is being done about it.

and nothing is being done about it.

We're floundering in the dark.

We're not acknowledging there's an issue

We're not acknowledging there's an issue

that drew people to go to these forums,

that drew people to go to these forums,

and these people are taking their lives,

and these people are taking their lives,

and at an exponential, alarming rate.

and at an exponential, alarming rate.

and at an exponential, alarming rate.

Why are young adults, in these spaces,

Why are young adults, in these spaces,

Why are young adults, in these spaces,

what is creating that in our society?

what is creating that in our society?

what is creating that in our society?

And what do we do to change that?

I think this story says a lot about how society treats

I think this story says a lot about how society treats

the most vulnerable people.

the most vulnerable people.

Everything needs to be looked at,

Everything needs to be looked at,

and more care needs to be given to these people and their families.

and more care needs to be given to these people and their families.

But nothing will be able to bring their loved ones back.

But nothing will be able to bring their loved ones back.

And ultimately that is the biggest tragedy in this story.

And ultimately that is the biggest tragedy in this story.

Subtitles by Red Bee Media

Subtitles by Red Bee Media

Subtitles by Red Bee Media