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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:13,889 --> 00:00:16,051 Evil has many faces. 2 00:00:17,643 --> 00:00:20,135 A man who laughs. 3 00:00:21,605 --> 00:00:24,017 The master of Metropolis. 4 00:00:25,150 --> 00:00:28,063 The Guardian of fear. 5 00:00:29,363 --> 00:00:32,071 A conqueror of worlds. 6 00:00:32,950 --> 00:00:35,783 Many faces, but just one name: 7 00:00:35,994 --> 00:00:37,780 The superviilain. 8 00:00:37,996 --> 00:00:40,954 Powerful, charismatic... 9 00:00:41,166 --> 00:00:44,625 ...intelligent, ruthless. 10 00:00:44,836 --> 00:00:48,545 The superviilain reflects our fears and frustrations... 11 00:00:48,757 --> 00:00:52,421 ...the dangers and perils of everyday life. 12 00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:56,049 They commit the heinous crimes we will not. 13 00:00:56,265 --> 00:00:59,758 And in a world where right and wrong are not absolute... 14 00:00:59,977 --> 00:01:04,312 ...where shades of gray exist in life as well as the comic page... 15 00:01:04,523 --> 00:01:09,142 ...evil isn't just unavoidable, it's necessary. 16 00:01:19,788 --> 00:01:25,283 In the world of comics, one could argue that the villain is even more vital to the story... 17 00:01:25,502 --> 00:01:28,164 ...than the just and moral hero. 18 00:01:29,131 --> 00:01:31,418 For without a proper adversary... 19 00:01:31,633 --> 00:01:34,751 ...we tack the very essence of story: 20 00:01:34,970 --> 00:01:36,335 Conflict. 21 00:01:37,097 --> 00:01:42,683 After all, isn't it the villain who catapults the hero into action? 22 00:01:43,228 --> 00:01:48,348 Without the villain, there's really no story. The superhero exists and does nothing. 23 00:01:48,567 --> 00:01:52,526 If the villain isn't acting out, Superman stays Clark Kent. 24 00:01:52,738 --> 00:01:57,357 The superheroes are always reacting. The villains are making things happen. 25 00:01:57,576 --> 00:02:02,070 Villains are the ones with a plan. The villains are the ones who are taking the initiative. 26 00:02:02,289 --> 00:02:07,409 If you define "protagonist" as somebody who sets something in motion... 27 00:02:07,628 --> 00:02:09,869 ...and "antagonist" as somebody who stops him... 28 00:02:10,088 --> 00:02:14,798 ...almost all the villains in comic books are protagonists. 29 00:02:15,010 --> 00:02:19,846 You need that ongoing impetus of the bad guy, the one who's gonna be a challenge... 30 00:02:20,057 --> 00:02:23,140 ...the one who is going to threaten society's rules... 31 00:02:23,352 --> 00:02:28,188 ...and be put in their place by somebody who upholds those rules. 32 00:02:38,492 --> 00:02:42,577 Not only is there no story or conflict without the villain... 33 00:02:43,246 --> 00:02:48,286 ...but it's through the villain that we see our hero at their very core. 34 00:02:48,502 --> 00:02:52,245 We see their many flaws, we see their many weaknesses. 35 00:02:52,798 --> 00:02:55,961 We see what makes them the hero they are. 36 00:02:56,176 --> 00:03:01,171 Without the villain to define the hero... 37 00:03:01,390 --> 00:03:02,880 ...you don't have a hero. 38 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:08,595 You have no anvil from which the superhero is pounded into the shape that he is. 39 00:03:08,814 --> 00:03:10,600 Villains in comic book stories... 40 00:03:10,816 --> 00:03:16,437 ...allow the hero or the superhero to really flex their muscles. 41 00:03:16,655 --> 00:03:19,522 The more power the supervillains have... 42 00:03:19,741 --> 00:03:24,030 ...the more you can showcase how important that superhero is. 43 00:03:24,246 --> 00:03:29,332 The stronger your villains are, the stronger your hero is. They have to overcome... 44 00:03:29,543 --> 00:03:31,375 ...somebody who's smart, powerful... 45 00:03:32,337 --> 00:03:35,921 ...who knows what they want and who's on a mission that they believe in. 46 00:03:36,133 --> 00:03:40,422 So if the hero can stop them, you know, it makes them that much better. 47 00:03:41,304 --> 00:03:45,764 All the more true in the DC universe because we have rich villains. 48 00:03:45,976 --> 00:03:50,721 One is Flash and Reverse-Flash. The very names give you what they are. 49 00:03:50,939 --> 00:03:53,601 Reverse-Flash suffered something so horrible. 50 00:03:54,401 --> 00:03:59,692 And he felt like the Flash could have fixed it. He knew that the Flash could go through time. 51 00:03:59,906 --> 00:04:01,112 He'd seen it happen before. 52 00:04:01,324 --> 00:04:04,817 He said, "Why don't you go back, prevent this from happening? Why won't you?" 53 00:04:05,036 --> 00:04:06,618 The guy won't do it. 54 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:11,870 "Well, he won't do it because he hasn't felt tragedy like I have. 55 00:04:12,085 --> 00:04:17,000 So I'm going to have him feel tragedy to make him a better hero. 56 00:04:17,674 --> 00:04:21,884 You need to be able to take the measures to protect everyone you love. 57 00:04:22,095 --> 00:04:26,089 You wouldn't do it for me. Maybe you'll do it for yourself. So I put you to the test." 58 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,762 The Riddler, he's all about Batman's intellect. 59 00:04:28,977 --> 00:04:31,844 He, to me, is the sword-sharpener. He's the guy that says: 60 00:04:32,063 --> 00:04:35,977 "if you are not clever enough, everybody dies in that way." 61 00:04:36,193 --> 00:04:39,402 He shows in some ways that Batman, at his roots... 62 00:04:39,613 --> 00:04:41,354 ...needs to be the greatest detective. 63 00:04:41,573 --> 00:04:46,033 At his heart, he's born in Detective Comics. At the core of the character is Sherlock Holmes. 64 00:04:46,244 --> 00:04:49,953 He's that guy that, because he's human, needs to be smarter than anybody else... 65 00:04:50,165 --> 00:04:51,496 ...to solve these crimes. 66 00:04:51,708 --> 00:04:56,202 For me, the Riddler steps on to the stage and challenges that fundamental element... 67 00:04:56,421 --> 00:05:00,039 ...of Batman's capabilities that needs to be there almost more than any other. 68 00:05:00,258 --> 00:05:04,047 I mean, that's Batman's superpower. He's the greatest detective of all time. 69 00:05:06,223 --> 00:05:09,932 The relationship between a villain and their rival is more complicated... 70 00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:14,762 ...than a question of right versus wrong, good versus evil. 71 00:05:14,981 --> 00:05:19,225 Together, they form a dynamic that is, at times, interdependent. 72 00:05:19,444 --> 00:05:25,907 A villain cannot exist without a hero and a hero, his or her villain. 73 00:05:26,284 --> 00:05:31,575 They're in a symbiotic relationship in that if the villains were to do off the hero... 74 00:05:31,790 --> 00:05:35,454 ...I think they would probably find themselves a little listless. 75 00:05:35,669 --> 00:05:37,831 When we did "Death of the Family" story... 76 00:05:38,046 --> 00:05:41,835 ...he comes at Batman saying, “Deep down, we really love each other." 77 00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:45,793 And, of course, Batman says, "I hate nothing more on the earth than you, Joker." 78 00:05:46,012 --> 00:05:50,472 The Joker feels that the family that Batman has built around him all these years... 79 00:05:50,684 --> 00:05:51,890 ...is dragging him down. 80 00:05:52,102 --> 00:05:54,639 He says, “These people are draining your soul. 81 00:05:54,855 --> 00:05:57,768 These other members, they're sucking the life out of you. 82 00:05:57,983 --> 00:06:01,942 I'm your friend. I wanna make you be the best that you can be... 83 00:06:02,153 --> 00:06:05,987 ...so that we can both have a relationship that we could enjoy for so many years... 84 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:09,442 ...without these knuckleheads on the side constantly draining you. 85 00:06:09,661 --> 00:06:14,747 And so I'm gonna take care of them for you, and I will wipe out all these family members... 86 00:06:14,958 --> 00:06:17,199 ...so you can be free of their encumbrance." 87 00:06:17,419 --> 00:06:20,332 What the Joker, at his core, is saying is that: 88 00:06:20,547 --> 00:06:23,084 "You might not love us the way that we love you... 89 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:26,292 ...or you might not want to admit you love us the way we love you. 90 00:06:26,511 --> 00:06:29,674 This rogues' gallery that you have," he's like,"All of us love you. 91 00:06:29,890 --> 00:06:33,133 All of us are here only to make you a better superhero." 92 00:06:33,351 --> 00:06:36,685 The question always becomes: What came first, the hero or the villain? 93 00:06:36,897 --> 00:06:39,810 Did the hero introduce himself to society to do better good... 94 00:06:40,025 --> 00:06:41,936 ...and because they put on that costume... 95 00:06:42,152 --> 00:06:45,144 ...the costumed villain arose to confront him or to challenge him? 96 00:06:45,363 --> 00:06:47,695 Or did the costumed villain arrive first... 97 00:06:47,908 --> 00:06:52,698 ...and the hero was created in order to stop that type of villain from succeeding... 98 00:06:52,913 --> 00:06:54,403 ...or getting more powerful? 99 00:06:54,623 --> 00:06:56,785 There are threats that Superman has to face... 100 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,913 ...where I would tend to think we're grateful Superman is there. 101 00:07:00,128 --> 00:07:04,372 People might say, "if Superman weren't here, would these menaces be coming to Earth?" 102 00:07:04,591 --> 00:07:10,633 Bane comes to Gotham specifically to fight Batman. 103 00:07:10,847 --> 00:07:13,009 This is the Riddler as he originally appeared. 104 00:07:13,642 --> 00:07:18,227 First moved to Gotham because he was attracted by the challenge of Batman. 105 00:07:18,438 --> 00:07:21,305 They both came there to challenge Batman... 106 00:07:21,524 --> 00:07:26,644 ...to see if he could be a foe worthy of them, give them something interesting to do. 107 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:29,863 So the question is which came first? 108 00:07:30,075 --> 00:07:32,908 And I'm not sure if I really wanna answer that question. 109 00:07:33,703 --> 00:07:36,570 The one thing I can say, one can't exist without the other. 110 00:07:36,790 --> 00:07:39,031 As long as we have villains, there will be heroes. 111 00:07:39,250 --> 00:07:41,742 And as long as we have heroes, there will be villains. 112 00:07:43,421 --> 00:07:47,130 But what is it about the villain that keeps us so entranced... 113 00:07:47,342 --> 00:07:50,175 ...that captivates and enthralls us? 114 00:07:50,762 --> 00:07:55,256 What makes us applaud the very person we want to see vanquished? 115 00:07:55,475 --> 00:08:01,061 The reasons are often as multifaceted as the villains we enjoy. 116 00:08:01,272 --> 00:08:04,390 What makes a great superviilain is something that we can relate to. 117 00:08:04,609 --> 00:08:07,192 It's the same thing that makes for a great superhero. 118 00:08:07,404 --> 00:08:13,741 In the superhero we have this exaggeration of what our hopes and desires are. 119 00:08:13,952 --> 00:08:17,035 At the same time the villain has aspects of us... 120 00:08:17,247 --> 00:08:22,083 ...that challenge the strengths that we're admiring in the superhero. 121 00:08:22,293 --> 00:08:25,126 I would like to think that most people identify with the hero, heh. 122 00:08:25,338 --> 00:08:28,956 But in this day and age there might be some who identify with the villain. 123 00:08:29,175 --> 00:08:35,512 I understand getting a gun that shoots ice and going into a bank and trying to rob it. 124 00:08:35,724 --> 00:08:38,216 We understand temptation. 125 00:08:38,435 --> 00:08:44,306 The oldest stories ever told have to do with temptation... 126 00:08:44,524 --> 00:08:48,267 ...whether it's Pandora or Adam and Eve. 127 00:08:48,486 --> 00:08:54,152 This very basic quality in human beings that runs with us throughout our lives. 128 00:08:54,367 --> 00:08:56,358 Now, there are villains like the Joker or Black Hand... 129 00:08:56,578 --> 00:08:58,410 ...that are so twisted and dark... 130 00:08:58,621 --> 00:09:01,955 ...you love seeing them do their stuff, but you don't relate to them. 131 00:09:02,167 --> 00:09:04,078 At least, you don't admit you do. 132 00:09:04,294 --> 00:09:09,004 Everyone wishes that they could turn invisible or fly or have x-ray vision. 133 00:09:09,215 --> 00:09:14,335 And I think what's cool about villains is everyone wishes that they could break bad. 134 00:09:14,554 --> 00:09:19,720 What's the point of having a villain who can't act out aspects of ourselves that we repress? 135 00:09:19,934 --> 00:09:22,471 I can be evil. I'm gonna give you my husband's number... 136 00:09:22,687 --> 00:09:25,600 ...and you can have a long chat with him. Heh, heh, heh. 137 00:09:25,815 --> 00:09:31,231 I think there are some people who really associate themselves with, like, a Superman. 138 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,070 On the other hand, people covet Lex Luthor's keen intellect. 139 00:09:37,285 --> 00:09:40,573 When I was growing up I loved the character of Vandal Savage. 140 00:09:40,789 --> 00:09:43,656 DC had relaunched The Flash with Wally West as the Flash... 141 00:09:43,875 --> 00:09:48,335 ...after Crisis on Infinite Earths and his first villain that he fought was Vandal Savage. 142 00:09:48,546 --> 00:09:51,083 He was immortal. And who wouldn't want to be immortal? 143 00:09:51,299 --> 00:09:54,257 And who wouldn't want to have this far reach into history? 144 00:09:54,469 --> 00:09:59,134 He's one of those villains that has nothing to lose. That's a very dangerous man. 145 00:09:59,349 --> 00:10:02,091 You know, he just knows he will be resurrected. 146 00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:04,142 How do you defeat that person? 147 00:10:04,354 --> 00:10:07,437 You look good. Been working out? 148 00:10:07,982 --> 00:10:10,269 You could probably use a little sun. 149 00:10:11,152 --> 00:10:14,270 Then again, who am I to talk? 150 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:19,233 They seem to be happy. Heh. They seem to enjoy being bad. 151 00:10:19,452 --> 00:10:21,534 Most of the heroes, especially of late... 152 00:10:21,746 --> 00:10:25,080 ...they're all broody and sad. They never seem to be enjoying anything. 153 00:10:25,291 --> 00:10:28,249 You look at villains and they're having the time of their lives. 154 00:10:30,505 --> 00:10:34,749 Harley became popular because, in part, she's funny. 155 00:10:34,968 --> 00:10:39,337 She can stand up to the Joker. She can tell a joke. She can get a laugh. 156 00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:44,266 When I go to conventions and I see young ladies cosplaying as her... 157 00:10:44,477 --> 00:10:49,392 ...I think they just tap into that feeling of fun and that she can just be kind of whimsical. 158 00:10:49,607 --> 00:10:52,099 Harley Quinn is one of those characters you love. 159 00:10:52,318 --> 00:10:55,026 Even if she's smashing somebody with a hammer, you love her. 160 00:10:55,238 --> 00:10:57,605 There's a handful of those villains, like Larfleeze... 161 00:10:57,824 --> 00:10:59,861 ...the Orange Lantern. He's deadly but he's fun. 162 00:11:00,076 --> 00:11:03,910 He's overwhelmed with greed and he'll kill for it. He's still funny because of that. 163 00:11:04,122 --> 00:11:07,240 He comes to Earth and finds out there's a being called Santa Claus... 164 00:11:07,458 --> 00:11:09,790 ...who gives people things that you list. 165 00:11:10,003 --> 00:11:12,791 When Larfleeze finds out there's a being called Santa Claus... 166 00:11:13,006 --> 00:11:15,668 ...that answers your Christmas list, he makes a giant list. 167 00:11:15,884 --> 00:11:18,501 When Santa doesn't show up, he gets pissed off and says: 168 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,462 "I'm gonna kill him." And he goes on a hunt for Santa Claus. 169 00:11:21,681 --> 00:11:24,719 There's very few characters that you can pull that story off with. 170 00:11:24,934 --> 00:11:27,096 Larfleeze is one of those characters. 171 00:11:27,937 --> 00:11:32,431 But while villains can be fun, as well as fascinating... 172 00:11:32,650 --> 00:11:37,144 ...they're also a direct reflection of our own fears. 173 00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:41,364 They force us to examine the deep and personal terrors... 174 00:11:41,576 --> 00:11:46,070 ...that we are unable to face in our everyday lives. 175 00:11:46,289 --> 00:11:49,327 When writers create supervillains... 176 00:11:49,542 --> 00:11:52,660 ...when children imagine monsters... 177 00:11:53,296 --> 00:11:56,880 ...they're trying to make sense of a scary world. 178 00:11:57,091 --> 00:11:59,924 They're trying to feel strong. 179 00:12:00,136 --> 00:12:02,093 They're trying to do so many things. 180 00:12:02,305 --> 00:12:06,515 Villains in some ways, you know, should reflect our fears and our concerns... 181 00:12:06,726 --> 00:12:10,344 ...you know, both as individuals and as a society. 182 00:12:10,563 --> 00:12:11,724 They change over time. 183 00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:15,683 But the more important thing the villains present is our more global fear... 184 00:12:15,902 --> 00:12:19,987 ...our more human fear, our fear of loss... 185 00:12:20,198 --> 00:12:23,031 ...our fear of death, our fear of the unknown. 186 00:12:23,243 --> 00:12:29,865 The villain represents basically everything that we fear... 187 00:12:30,083 --> 00:12:32,495 ...or everything that we need to fight against. 188 00:12:34,462 --> 00:12:39,878 Parallax is interesting because the idea that it's a world-eater, that scares the hell out of us. 189 00:12:40,093 --> 00:12:42,835 At any moment some universal malevolence... 190 00:12:43,054 --> 00:12:46,592 ...can come and take us over. That's a pretty scary thing. 191 00:12:48,309 --> 00:12:51,267 By the time they were doing the Superman show, I was an adult. 192 00:12:51,479 --> 00:12:54,517 But whenever you'd watch those Darkseid episodes, I'd be like: 193 00:12:54,732 --> 00:12:58,100 "Oh, God, this is gonna be bad." You know... 194 00:12:58,319 --> 00:13:00,060 ...anybody who can make Superman bleed... 195 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,022 ...is somebody that you don't wanna be trifled with. 196 00:13:03,241 --> 00:13:06,279 Because what are any of us really gonna do against him? 197 00:13:10,164 --> 00:13:13,998 I really made Sinestro and the Sinestro Corps embody fear. 198 00:13:14,210 --> 00:13:15,792 They're cosmic terrorists. 199 00:13:16,004 --> 00:13:18,541 Their mission when they come is to destroy Coast City. 200 00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:21,123 "We're gonna make Green Lantern's town a crater... 201 00:13:21,342 --> 00:13:25,176 ...and a symbol of fear, so that nobody will ever come back here." 202 00:13:25,388 --> 00:13:29,677 Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps says, "We're not afraid. We're gonna fight your fear." 203 00:13:29,892 --> 00:13:34,136 Hal flies to his brother's house and his brother is there with his wife and his kids. 204 00:13:34,355 --> 00:13:37,473 Hal Jordan says to his brother, "You have to leave right now." 205 00:13:37,692 --> 00:13:40,559 His brother says, “We're not going anywhere. We believe in you. 206 00:13:40,778 --> 00:13:42,815 We're not afraid. We're standing our ground." 207 00:13:43,031 --> 00:13:46,023 And suddenly another Green Lantern says, "Hal, look outside." 208 00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:48,904 And someone's put a green light in their window... 209 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,703 ...and another person puts a green light in their window. 210 00:13:51,914 --> 00:13:54,781 And suddenly there's green lights all throughout the city... 211 00:13:55,001 --> 00:13:57,038 ...as a symbolic gesture to Hal. 212 00:13:57,253 --> 00:14:03,044 And for me, that was a recharge moment for Hal Jordan overcoming fear... 213 00:14:03,259 --> 00:14:08,220 ...but it was also a moment, emotionally, for me saying, like: 214 00:14:08,431 --> 00:14:11,219 "This is how we deal with fear. We take a stand." 215 00:14:11,434 --> 00:14:12,674 They're our personal demons. 216 00:14:12,894 --> 00:14:15,135 Like, they're the fears we have about ourselves... 217 00:14:15,355 --> 00:14:18,438 ...come to life in these incredibly colorful and bright... 218 00:14:18,649 --> 00:14:21,562 ...and sometimes funny, sometimes terrifying ways. 219 00:14:21,778 --> 00:14:25,521 All of us face those things in our lives, where you face adversity in some way... 220 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:28,823 ...where you're positive you're not gonna make it through this one. 221 00:14:29,035 --> 00:14:33,154 And I think we've all been there at some point where you're just thinking to yourself: 222 00:14:33,373 --> 00:14:35,159 "I am not capable of overcoming this." 223 00:14:35,375 --> 00:14:38,117 Whether it's a small day-to-day thing or it's a big thing. 224 00:14:38,336 --> 00:14:41,749 And what villains do is they represent those fears on this macro way... 225 00:14:41,964 --> 00:14:45,832 ...I think, for the hero, who's the representative of all the things we think-- 226 00:14:46,052 --> 00:14:50,137 We hope that humanity is capable of or we're capable of at our best. 227 00:14:50,348 --> 00:14:53,761 Then when the hero overcomes those things at the end because they have to... 228 00:14:53,976 --> 00:14:56,343 ...it says to us that we can too. 229 00:15:07,824 --> 00:15:10,191 Every myth has a creation. 230 00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:14,950 Just like our heroes, every villain must have an origin. 231 00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:19,784 And what qualities do we see in the most popular villains? 232 00:15:20,002 --> 00:15:23,745 Instilling a sense of fear simply isn't enough. 233 00:15:23,965 --> 00:15:27,833 Villains must be layered, nuanced. 234 00:15:28,052 --> 00:15:33,923 We must ask ourselves: What makes a bad guy, a bad guy? 235 00:15:34,642 --> 00:15:38,931 You wanna give your villain idiosyncrasies, and you want to make him strangely weird... 236 00:15:39,147 --> 00:15:42,265 ...and interesting psychologically. 237 00:15:42,483 --> 00:15:46,522 Those kind of characters lend themselves to having stories told about them... 238 00:15:46,737 --> 00:15:49,479 ...because their bones are so strong. 239 00:15:49,699 --> 00:15:51,656 You can put, you know... 240 00:15:51,868 --> 00:15:53,529 You can hang a lot of meat on them. 241 00:15:53,744 --> 00:15:57,453 They have their own path and they all have their own story. 242 00:15:57,665 --> 00:16:02,580 And, you know, while their powers may be similar... 243 00:16:02,795 --> 00:16:05,833 ...hopefully their personalities are not. 244 00:16:06,048 --> 00:16:10,838 If a villain is great-looking or is great just visually... 245 00:16:11,053 --> 00:16:12,919 ...but doesn't have a back-story... 246 00:16:13,139 --> 00:16:18,305 ...it really takes away from enjoying its run. 247 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:21,056 The wonderful thing about Batman: The Animated Series... 248 00:16:21,272 --> 00:16:24,014 ...is that they not only featured... 249 00:16:24,233 --> 00:16:28,852 ...and celebrated a number of DC villains in Gotham City... 250 00:16:29,071 --> 00:16:31,312 ...but introduced a number of origin stories. 251 00:16:31,908 --> 00:16:34,240 Of course, we have this back-story of Harvey Dent... 252 00:16:34,452 --> 00:16:37,035 ...and his struggles with his anger. 253 00:16:37,246 --> 00:16:40,830 We even get to see this session he has with a psychiatrist. 254 00:16:41,042 --> 00:16:45,661 And the psychiatrist puts him into this state of hypnotism... 255 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,124 ...and asks him to draw up his alter ego. 256 00:16:50,343 --> 00:16:53,176 He calls it Big Bad Harvey. 257 00:16:53,387 --> 00:16:59,633 Later in the episode, of course, we see his full development into Two-Face. 258 00:16:59,852 --> 00:17:01,843 And I'll never forget that moment... 259 00:17:02,063 --> 00:17:05,931 ...where he breaks open the door out of his hospital room. 260 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:08,767 He then turns at the same time that there's lightning... 261 00:17:08,986 --> 00:17:14,447 ...and we see the image of the second half of his face. 262 00:17:19,997 --> 00:17:22,455 Black Hand really came into his own... 263 00:17:22,667 --> 00:17:28,629 ...in Green Lantern 43 when his origin was revealed. 264 00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:31,627 Taking a character like Black Hand who was a minor villain... 265 00:17:31,842 --> 00:17:35,130 ...and looking at him and saying, "if we have an emotional spectrum..-... 266 00:17:35,346 --> 00:17:37,257 ...and all the colors represent life... 267 00:17:38,057 --> 00:17:41,470 ...the absence of color has to represent death. There's got to be black." 268 00:17:41,686 --> 00:17:44,929 Black Hand, by becoming the avatar of death, having a black ring... 269 00:17:45,147 --> 00:17:48,390 ...committing suicide to become a zombified Black Lantern... 270 00:17:48,609 --> 00:17:52,022 ...which is one of the best moments Doug Mahnke's ever drawn in his life. 271 00:17:52,238 --> 00:17:53,820 It's creepy, twisted, dark. 272 00:17:54,031 --> 00:17:58,025 Once people actually got to get inside his head a little bit and see who he was... 273 00:17:58,244 --> 00:18:00,827 ...then it became much more of a connection. 274 00:18:01,789 --> 00:18:04,827 A hero's motive is usually straightforward: 275 00:18:05,042 --> 00:18:09,286 Save the day, serve justice, defeat evil. 276 00:18:09,505 --> 00:18:12,918 Villains, however, are driven by a variety of forces. 277 00:18:13,134 --> 00:18:16,843 It could be as grandiose as taking over the world... 278 00:18:17,054 --> 00:18:20,968 ...or as direct as forcing others to share their agony. 279 00:18:21,183 --> 00:18:27,555 They can be much more complex, personal and often even relatable. 280 00:18:27,773 --> 00:18:33,485 What makes a villain the most memorable is the reason they're doing whatever it is they do. 281 00:18:33,696 --> 00:18:36,313 It's not the crime. We've seen a hundred thousand crimes. 282 00:18:36,532 --> 00:18:38,773 We've seen Luthor break into banks. 283 00:18:38,993 --> 00:18:41,860 We've seen all these characters do weird things. 284 00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,036 But why they do it. 285 00:18:44,248 --> 00:18:48,617 Every one of us is driven by, you know, our own singular, you know, needs and wants. 286 00:18:48,836 --> 00:18:49,871 So are villains. 287 00:18:53,758 --> 00:18:58,127 A character like the Anti-Monitor from Crisis on Infinite Earths... 288 00:18:58,346 --> 00:19:01,179 ...needs to absorb all the universes. 289 00:19:01,390 --> 00:19:03,427 And that's the only way he could survive. 290 00:19:03,643 --> 00:19:07,102 Behold the definition of true power. 291 00:19:07,313 --> 00:19:10,351 He's not doing it because he cares at all about life. 292 00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:14,605 And that makes him frightening because you can't reason with him. 293 00:19:14,820 --> 00:19:18,563 He's not an intellect that you can talk to and say: 294 00:19:18,783 --> 00:19:21,024 "Don't you realize you're doing something bad? 295 00:19:21,243 --> 00:19:25,202 Can't we figure out something else to do?" He's not interested. He has one need. 296 00:19:25,414 --> 00:19:30,204 When I created Clayface III at the behest of the late Julius Schwartz... 297 00:19:30,419 --> 00:19:34,003 ...I came up with a character who was a monster... 298 00:19:34,215 --> 00:19:36,126 ...because he had screwed up. 299 00:19:36,342 --> 00:19:40,085 He was someone born with acromegaly, essentially the elephant man disease. 300 00:19:40,304 --> 00:19:43,092 And in trying to fix himself... 301 00:19:43,307 --> 00:19:49,724 ...became somebody who basically can draw the calcium out of your body... 302 00:19:49,939 --> 00:19:53,022 ...and reduce people to little clay-like masses. 303 00:19:53,234 --> 00:19:56,352 But he didn't want to. It's just how he survived. 304 00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:59,358 There may also be, certainly, revenge involved. 305 00:19:59,573 --> 00:20:03,111 A lot of villains feel that they've been wronged in some way... 306 00:20:03,327 --> 00:20:06,490 ...whether it's by society or a loved one or the police. 307 00:20:08,249 --> 00:20:12,834 With Mr. Freeze, when we developed the character for Batman: The Animated Series... 308 00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:16,504 ...I thought, "Somebody that cold has to be that cold for a reason." 309 00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:21,961 Essentially he had some funding to carry out his research to cure his wife, Nora. 310 00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:24,136 And the man who pulled that funding... 311 00:20:24,348 --> 00:20:29,058 ...he then became the focus of Mr. Freeze's evil-doing. 312 00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:34,106 His mission is to go after the one man who took away the love of his life. 313 00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,728 He actually says to Batman: 314 00:20:36,944 --> 00:20:43,111 "This is my sole purpose, and if you get in the way, you'll pay for it." 315 00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:46,693 Which kind of implies, “Look, if you just step aside, I won't harm you." 316 00:20:50,166 --> 00:20:52,828 As a villain, you can argue whether he's a villain or not. 317 00:20:53,043 --> 00:20:59,540 Atrocitus, he was motivated by anger at the Guardians of the Universe. 318 00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:03,502 His family got killed because the Guardians of the Universe... 319 00:21:03,721 --> 00:21:06,759 ...they created these manhunters, androids... 320 00:21:06,974 --> 00:21:09,716 ...which were their predecessors to the Green Lantern Corps. 321 00:21:09,935 --> 00:21:15,476 Atrocitus skips over the denial stage of grief... 322 00:21:15,691 --> 00:21:18,809 ...goes into anger and stays there. Forget going into the later ones. 323 00:21:19,028 --> 00:21:21,690 The only bargain he makes is to stay angry... 324 00:21:21,906 --> 00:21:27,492 ...and avenge his family by going after the Guardians however he can. 325 00:21:27,953 --> 00:21:34,620 That's why the Joker is so interesting, because he sort of doesn't have a motive. 326 00:21:35,211 --> 00:21:36,451 He knows he's crazy. 327 00:21:36,670 --> 00:21:40,755 Most of the crazy villains, most of the villains who in comics, who are insane... 328 00:21:40,966 --> 00:21:42,752 ...have no idea they are. 329 00:21:42,968 --> 00:21:45,676 But the Joker is aware of it and he loves it. 330 00:21:45,888 --> 00:21:49,756 He loves the concept that he is chaos to Batman's logic and order. 331 00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:53,889 And, obviously, we have the most recent incarnation on the big screen. 332 00:21:54,104 --> 00:21:58,314 Heath Ledger's Joker is a perfect example of that. 333 00:21:58,526 --> 00:22:02,440 And he even says it. He's a dog chasing a car. 334 00:22:02,655 --> 00:22:05,818 And when he catches it, he doesn't-- He doesn't know what he's doing. 335 00:22:06,033 --> 00:22:08,525 He just sort of does things. 336 00:22:09,453 --> 00:22:12,445 With Lex Luthor, he just wants power. 337 00:22:12,665 --> 00:22:14,201 But how does he attain it? 338 00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:16,202 How many ways does he have to go? 339 00:22:16,418 --> 00:22:18,705 Why is he jealous of Superman? 340 00:22:18,921 --> 00:22:21,288 Because he wants to be more powerful than Superman. 341 00:22:21,507 --> 00:22:25,250 Those self-made men tend to feel that they have license. 342 00:22:25,469 --> 00:22:28,006 Tend to feel that they're superior to everybody else. 343 00:22:28,222 --> 00:22:33,763 He has these personality characteristics that one would consider narcissistic... 344 00:22:33,978 --> 00:22:39,314 ...in the sense that he has this element of superiority... 345 00:22:39,525 --> 00:22:43,519 ...that he is more powerful than others. Thinks that he's more intelligent than others. 346 00:22:43,737 --> 00:22:47,901 And, therefore, believes that he deserves more than what other people deserve. 347 00:22:48,117 --> 00:22:52,657 He is like the pinnacle of humanity. He has made himself the best man. 348 00:22:52,872 --> 00:22:58,208 And then there's this alien that's better than him. 349 00:22:58,419 --> 00:23:01,912 I did the revision of Luthor back in the 1980s. 350 00:23:02,131 --> 00:23:08,423 I turned him into a character who brought jobs to Metropolis. 351 00:23:08,637 --> 00:23:14,098 He provided museums and philharmonic orchestras... 352 00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:20,647 ...and did all this stuff as long as everyone knew he was the best. 353 00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:26,228 He wanted the power. He wanted the control. And he was happy. 354 00:23:26,447 --> 00:23:29,235 He was delighted because everyone honored him. 355 00:23:30,117 --> 00:23:32,905 And then Superman came along, who could fly. 356 00:23:33,537 --> 00:23:34,572 It was ego. 357 00:23:34,788 --> 00:23:37,200 "I am the person who looks down on everybody else." 358 00:23:37,416 --> 00:23:40,408 And the first time Superman and he meet, Superman says: 359 00:23:40,628 --> 00:23:43,620 "I'll be around. If you wanna find me, just look up." 360 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:47,958 And suddenly there was somebody who was over Luthor and he couldn't deal with that. 361 00:23:49,011 --> 00:23:54,222 I think that's also part of the ego is that villains love to hear themselves talk. 362 00:23:54,433 --> 00:24:00,725 They love to hear their theories as expounded upon by themselves. 363 00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:03,773 The Penguin made a comment in one comic book: 364 00:24:03,984 --> 00:24:08,103 "What's the point in committing the perfect crime if no one knows it was you who did it?" 365 00:24:08,322 --> 00:24:12,737 Lex Luther's brain, as evil as it is, is brilliant. 366 00:24:12,952 --> 00:24:16,161 Once he had him and he was incapacitated... 367 00:24:16,372 --> 00:24:19,740 ...to the degree that Lex could do anything he wanted with him... 368 00:24:19,959 --> 00:24:24,419 ...he could aggrandize himself in front of him. "Let me tell you how brilliant I am." 369 00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:28,919 You were great in your day, Superman, but it just stands to reason. 370 00:24:29,134 --> 00:24:31,626 When it came time to cash in your chips... 371 00:24:31,845 --> 00:24:37,340 ...this old, diseased, maniac, would be your banker. 372 00:24:40,688 --> 00:24:42,679 Mind over muscle. 373 00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:48,981 The grandiose nature of the villains figures into every one of those key aspects. 374 00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:52,279 Whatever their mission is in life, the main thing they want to do. 375 00:24:52,491 --> 00:24:56,200 The one who wants to get the money, he wants to do it in the outlandish way... 376 00:24:56,412 --> 00:24:57,868 ...the creative, different way. 377 00:24:59,081 --> 00:25:02,665 When you think of some of the more flamboyant villains in the DC Universe... 378 00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:04,662 ...you sort of think about: 379 00:25:04,878 --> 00:25:07,210 Would they really be happy with all the money in the world? 380 00:25:07,423 --> 00:25:09,630 Would they really be happy with running the city? 381 00:25:09,842 --> 00:25:14,803 You know, it seems to be they're much happier trying to take the city than actually having it. 382 00:25:15,014 --> 00:25:20,225 That's why you don't see a lot of books about supervillains now running city hall... 383 00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:22,347 ...or "Now I'm the mayor" or, you know... 384 00:25:22,563 --> 00:25:24,975 What are they gonna do with, you know, a billion dollars? 385 00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:27,852 So I do think it's sort of more the pursuit. 386 00:25:28,068 --> 00:25:31,652 It's not enough for the Riddler to rob a bank or steal a diamond. 387 00:25:31,864 --> 00:25:36,199 He's got to drop clues on his way to robbing a bank or stealing a diamond. 388 00:25:36,410 --> 00:25:40,404 The Riddler's probably the most self-defeating villain in the history of comic books... 389 00:25:40,622 --> 00:25:46,459 ...because he's always providing Batman with a clue to his comeuppance. 390 00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:50,288 He's obviously got some deep, dark... 391 00:25:50,507 --> 00:25:54,216 ...damaged psychological reason that, you know, deep down he wants to be caught. 392 00:25:54,428 --> 00:25:55,509 He wants to be punished. 393 00:25:55,721 --> 00:25:59,339 Otherwise he wouldn't leave ridiculous riddles to be left for Batman to solve. 394 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,483 The journey toward evil follows a long road... 395 00:26:11,695 --> 00:26:13,777 ...with many possible avenues. 396 00:26:13,989 --> 00:26:16,606 But for the fallen, the question remains: 397 00:26:16,825 --> 00:26:22,787 Were they born bad or did they willingly turn down the dark path? 398 00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:25,911 Is it the end result of a lifetime of suffering... 399 00:26:26,126 --> 00:26:30,962 ...or did one horrible incident forever push them over the edge? 400 00:26:31,173 --> 00:26:35,883 Ls there real evil? Does evil in itself really exist? 401 00:26:36,095 --> 00:26:40,555 Or it is always a reaction to something? Is it a reaction to some childhood trauma? 402 00:26:40,766 --> 00:26:46,808 There are a number of different, I guess, causes or trajectories toward evil-doing... 403 00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:48,979 ...or toward a life of villainy. 404 00:26:49,191 --> 00:26:52,479 The best villains probably are born bad. 405 00:26:53,237 --> 00:26:54,568 You want them to be, at least. 406 00:26:54,780 --> 00:27:00,241 There's always, like, maybe they were born bad, and then you had horrible incidents occur... 407 00:27:00,452 --> 00:27:03,410 ...that sort of kept them down that path. 408 00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:10,164 We have yet really to have true examples of these particular experiences... 409 00:27:10,379 --> 00:27:14,839 ...that the Joker, Harvey Dent and other villains have gone through. 410 00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:20,841 So I think there is a lot of room for the fictional writing... 411 00:27:21,056 --> 00:27:25,892 ...and the fictional exploration of one event creating-- 412 00:27:26,103 --> 00:27:31,724 Completely redefining a person where it turns them to villains. 413 00:27:34,027 --> 00:27:36,644 I created a character called Man-Bat. 414 00:27:36,864 --> 00:27:39,322 It's this guy who is a Batman fan. 415 00:27:40,367 --> 00:27:42,950 He is a genius. He is a scientist. 416 00:27:43,162 --> 00:27:47,451 Works in museums. But he's just a little off. 417 00:27:47,666 --> 00:27:51,785 And he thinks that if he creates a serum out of bats... 418 00:27:52,004 --> 00:27:54,462 ...that he can give it as a gift to Batman... 419 00:27:54,673 --> 00:27:59,418 ...and Batman will have the attributes of a bat. 420 00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:00,967 Wouldn't that be great? 421 00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:03,763 But somebody has to test it. 422 00:28:03,974 --> 00:28:06,557 So he tests it on himself. 423 00:28:06,768 --> 00:28:08,509 It's Jekyll and Hyde. 424 00:28:08,729 --> 00:28:11,596 He's turned into this creature. He becomes a man-bat. 425 00:28:11,815 --> 00:28:14,728 You can say, "Man-Bat is a villain." No, he's not a villain. 426 00:28:14,943 --> 00:28:18,777 He can be manipulated by villains, but he's a good guy. 427 00:28:18,989 --> 00:28:20,571 In fact, he loves Batman. 428 00:28:20,782 --> 00:28:23,023 He thinks Batman is the greatest hero on earth. 429 00:28:23,243 --> 00:28:25,075 And he wants to be like Batman. 430 00:28:25,287 --> 00:28:29,906 But if he's like Batman, he becomes a drug addict then becomes this monster. 431 00:28:30,125 --> 00:28:32,708 You will bow down before me! 432 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,130 First you, and then one day, your heirs! 433 00:28:37,341 --> 00:28:39,799 General Zod is a fantastic villain for Superman. 434 00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:45,631 While some of his actions aren't justifiable, you completely understand why he is the man he is. 435 00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:51,639 You know, someone like the Scarecrow... 436 00:28:51,855 --> 00:28:54,142 ...the fact that he was bullied into submission... 437 00:28:54,358 --> 00:28:57,350 ...and picked on by way more powerful people than him... 438 00:28:57,569 --> 00:29:04,191 ...and he was so scared to live his life because he had this constant air of fear around him. 439 00:29:04,409 --> 00:29:08,368 It drove him to figure out why that fear existed within him. 440 00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:12,039 And then at the end of the day, how he could inflict it upon other people. 441 00:29:12,251 --> 00:29:13,662 You're writing it and you see: 442 00:29:13,877 --> 00:29:17,336 "Why can't you just go left instead of right at this seminal moment?" 443 00:29:17,547 --> 00:29:21,085 That kind of story, I think, is equally inspiring and exciting to read... 444 00:29:21,301 --> 00:29:27,013 ...for different reasons, but because mostly you see that making the wrong choice... 445 00:29:27,224 --> 00:29:31,092 ...or falling victim to sort of difficult circumstances and letting them turn you... 446 00:29:31,311 --> 00:29:35,555 ...and twist you that way is something that gets you nowhere but Blackgate or Arkham... 447 00:29:35,774 --> 00:29:39,938 ...or, you know, the Phantom Zone or that sort of thing. Heh, heh. 448 00:29:41,613 --> 00:29:43,069 Consider this. 449 00:29:43,282 --> 00:29:49,699 The function and role of the hero and the villain is all simply a matter of perspective. 450 00:29:49,913 --> 00:29:54,953 If we reversed focus and considered the story from the point of view of the villain... 451 00:29:55,168 --> 00:29:59,287 ...wouldn't they be the hero and the hero the villain? 452 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,459 You have to think that pretty much everyone's a hero in their own story. 453 00:30:04,678 --> 00:30:08,171 The villains who are really interesting characters... 454 00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:11,223 ...have an affirmative reason for what they're doing. 455 00:30:11,435 --> 00:30:13,676 Their strength comes from... 456 00:30:13,895 --> 00:30:19,106 ...absolute certainty, 100 percent certainty, that they are correct. 457 00:30:19,693 --> 00:30:25,154 If they're uncertain about what they're doing, then they're not interesting characters. 458 00:30:25,365 --> 00:30:30,326 Perspective of ants. You know, do ants see us as giant villains? 459 00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:34,906 We're walking around. It's ruining my picnic, so I'm just stomping on ants. I'm not thinking. 460 00:30:35,125 --> 00:30:36,911 To someone's point of view down there... 461 00:30:37,127 --> 00:30:40,995 ...we are these giant gods who are villainous and are destroying their civilization. 462 00:30:41,214 --> 00:30:43,706 So it's really just about your point of view. 463 00:30:46,094 --> 00:30:49,382 Sinestro wanted to control things so much on Korugar, his home world... 464 00:30:49,598 --> 00:30:54,638 ...he wanted it to be safe for everybody that he started to instill fear like, "I'm in control." 465 00:30:54,853 --> 00:30:59,973 Sinestro is a villain who really did see himself as a hero and couldn't believe... 466 00:31:00,192 --> 00:31:03,776 ...that he was being chopped off at the knees by the Guardians all the time... 467 00:31:03,987 --> 00:31:07,025 ...and being perceived to be someone who wasn't looking out... 468 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,323 ...for the better interest of the universe and his own people. 469 00:31:10,535 --> 00:31:13,323 And, eventually, it pushed Sinestro into a dark place... 470 00:31:13,538 --> 00:31:16,246 ...where he finally just had to use his powers... 471 00:31:16,458 --> 00:31:19,041 ...to bring to light what he thought was the best thing. 472 00:31:19,252 --> 00:31:23,496 And Hal Jordan ultimately had to stop this guy who had gone renegade. 473 00:31:23,715 --> 00:31:25,922 So it just set them on a collision course. 474 00:31:27,052 --> 00:31:29,134 Lex doesn't perceive himself as a bad person. 475 00:31:29,346 --> 00:31:31,508 He doesn't perceive himself as anything... 476 00:31:31,723 --> 00:31:36,763 ...but the agent of order and civilization. 477 00:31:37,813 --> 00:31:41,807 You hold the future of the entire planet in your hands. 478 00:31:43,026 --> 00:31:46,189 - I'm here to take it back. - Lex? 479 00:31:47,197 --> 00:31:49,780 You'll never threaten the world again. 480 00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:54,614 I think Luthor is correct in the way he views the world. 481 00:31:54,830 --> 00:31:57,697 He's right. Superman is an alien and we shouldn't trust him. 482 00:31:57,916 --> 00:31:59,907 He has a lot of people on his side today... 483 00:32:00,127 --> 00:32:02,960 ...in that I think in the '50s, during the Eisenhower years... 484 00:32:03,171 --> 00:32:06,004 ...the idea of a superman with all these incredible powers... 485 00:32:06,216 --> 00:32:11,757 ...that we can't stop even if we wanted to, but he's a benign force for good, that's reassuring. 486 00:32:11,972 --> 00:32:16,011 In today's day and age, I don't know if that's as reassuring. 487 00:32:16,226 --> 00:32:20,766 So the idea that there's a guy who is a businessman... 488 00:32:20,981 --> 00:32:24,690 ...you know, a tycoon who's looking out for his fellow humans... 489 00:32:24,901 --> 00:32:28,690 ...against a threat that actually can't be contained or controlled... 490 00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:32,023 ...I think it really speaks to I think a lot of people's fears... 491 00:32:32,242 --> 00:32:34,279 ...about authority and power today. 492 00:32:37,998 --> 00:32:39,909 In modern story... 493 00:32:40,125 --> 00:32:41,991 ...just as it is in fife... 494 00:32:42,210 --> 00:32:47,626 ...the choice between right and wrong often isn't so cut and dry. 495 00:32:48,175 --> 00:32:52,760 Heroes are flawed, sometimes villains justified. 496 00:32:52,971 --> 00:32:56,805 But it's the villain and sometimes society itself... 497 00:32:57,017 --> 00:32:59,884 ...that further blurs the line. 498 00:33:00,103 --> 00:33:03,016 The same way there's a thin line between love and hate, to me... 499 00:33:03,231 --> 00:33:08,067 ...the best heroes are the ones that probably act a little villainous. 500 00:33:08,278 --> 00:33:13,990 And the best villains are the ones that might have martyr complexes. 501 00:33:14,201 --> 00:33:18,570 Where we are in comics right now, we probably examine the line between good and evil more... 502 00:33:18,788 --> 00:33:21,530 ...than ever had been done before. 503 00:33:21,750 --> 00:33:26,290 Batman is always trying to maintain that control within himself. 504 00:33:26,505 --> 00:33:29,714 You know, “This is how my parents were killed. 505 00:33:29,925 --> 00:33:33,543 I'm gonna make sure that doesn't happen to anybody else." 506 00:33:33,762 --> 00:33:40,225 He is a guy who's fighting to not become a bad guy. 507 00:33:40,435 --> 00:33:46,056 Had it not been for the humanizing anchors of his humanity, Alfred... 508 00:33:46,274 --> 00:33:49,483 ...and a few other key people keeping him in line... 509 00:33:49,694 --> 00:33:52,152 ...young Bruce Wayne, traumatized... 510 00:33:52,364 --> 00:33:56,779 ...by witnessing the murder of his parents before his eyes... 511 00:33:56,993 --> 00:34:01,362 ...could easily have gone the dark side of that line. 512 00:34:02,541 --> 00:34:04,532 All I've ever wanted to do is kill him. 513 00:34:04,751 --> 00:34:07,584 A day doesn't go by when I don't think about subjecting him... 514 00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:10,379 ...to every horrendous torture he's dealt out to others. 515 00:34:10,590 --> 00:34:12,877 And then end him. 516 00:34:13,093 --> 00:34:17,758 But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place... 517 00:34:19,140 --> 00:34:21,472 ...I'll never come back. 518 00:34:21,685 --> 00:34:24,723 There's sort of a power struggle going on with the villains too. 519 00:34:24,938 --> 00:34:28,147 There's the character that's sort of more of a gray nature... 520 00:34:28,358 --> 00:34:31,146 ...who was originally maybe intended to be a villain... 521 00:34:31,361 --> 00:34:37,027 ...who cleaned up his act a little bit or who is just so engaging that you like him a lot. 522 00:34:37,242 --> 00:34:39,153 You look at a character like Lobo. 523 00:34:39,369 --> 00:34:43,112 Here's this guy who should not be called a hero by any stretch of the imagination... 524 00:34:43,331 --> 00:34:46,323 ...but he's got just enough honor, I guess you'd say... 525 00:34:46,543 --> 00:34:48,500 ...like, you know, he's a bounty hunter. 526 00:34:48,712 --> 00:34:52,125 If he goes after somebody, for better or for worse, he'll honor the deal. 527 00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:54,502 And he'll track down the guy and bring him in. 528 00:34:54,718 --> 00:34:58,803 The appeal of Lobo is just the over-the-top black comedy and violence... 529 00:34:59,014 --> 00:35:00,596 ...I think the character brings. 530 00:35:00,807 --> 00:35:02,923 You know, he's a badass biker from outer space. 531 00:35:03,143 --> 00:35:04,679 Who doesn't love somebody like that? 532 00:35:04,894 --> 00:35:07,511 Deadshot is nice and simple and clear. 533 00:35:07,731 --> 00:35:11,315 He's like a bullet. He goes from point A to point B and he doesn't waver. 534 00:35:11,526 --> 00:35:14,894 He's got layers to him. He's not just doing this for the sake of fun. 535 00:35:15,113 --> 00:35:18,947 He's doing it because this is the thing he's good at. He's good at killing people. 536 00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:20,649 And he only does it for money. 537 00:35:20,869 --> 00:35:25,739 With a character like Deathstroke, I actually did not create him to be a villain. 538 00:35:25,957 --> 00:35:32,829 I created him thinking he was a character who was morally ambiguous... 539 00:35:33,048 --> 00:35:35,836 ...who was doing certain things for his own reasons. 540 00:35:36,051 --> 00:35:39,464 He was a hunter, he was a mercenary, he was an assassin... 541 00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:43,422 ...but always on a political, for-hire basis. 542 00:35:43,642 --> 00:35:49,729 And then because his son was trapped by the H.l.V.E., he was forced into becoming a villain. 543 00:35:49,939 --> 00:35:53,728 He didn't want to be, and no matter how many times he wants to get out of it... 544 00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:57,481 ...he can't because he has a certain code of ethics... 545 00:35:57,697 --> 00:36:02,112 ...that says he promised to complete his son's mission... 546 00:36:02,327 --> 00:36:06,571 ...and he can't stop until he does, even though he knows it's not his mission... 547 00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:08,656 ...and even though he knows it's wrong. 548 00:36:09,209 --> 00:36:12,292 Amanda Waller is one of the greatest characters in DC comics. 549 00:36:12,504 --> 00:36:16,122 She is the black ops government leader of the Suicide Squad... 550 00:36:16,341 --> 00:36:20,130 ...the program that recruits supervillains and forces them to do missions for them. 551 00:36:20,345 --> 00:36:23,133 And she is manipulative, super smart. 552 00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:27,467 Amanda Waller can only be viewed as a bad guy because she makes the tough choices. 553 00:36:27,686 --> 00:36:28,721 That's the reason why. 554 00:36:28,937 --> 00:36:34,558 And what she's doing is she is willing to sacrifice the individual for the greater good. 555 00:36:34,776 --> 00:36:38,440 Amanda Waller continues to be a presence in the DC universe. 556 00:36:38,655 --> 00:36:41,864 She's created a Justice League called the Justice League of America... 557 00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:45,443 ...that is designed to take out the real Justice League if need be. 558 00:36:45,662 --> 00:36:48,825 She's prepared for the worst because she's experienced the worst. 559 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,455 She has a very clear moral line and whether you agree with it or not, it doesn't shift. 560 00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:56,458 That's why you'll have that discussion going back and forth... 561 00:36:56,673 --> 00:36:58,914 ...of whether Amanda Waller is a hero or villain. 562 00:37:00,385 --> 00:37:03,753 Heroes typically have a strong moral code. 563 00:37:03,972 --> 00:37:05,303 "I Will not kill." 564 00:37:05,515 --> 00:37:07,426 "I will uphold the law." 565 00:37:07,642 --> 00:37:10,009 But just because villains commit crimes... 566 00:37:10,228 --> 00:37:13,186 ...does not mean they are completely without principles. 567 00:37:13,398 --> 00:37:20,145 There does exist honor among thieves, even if that honor is warped and twisted. 568 00:37:20,363 --> 00:37:22,604 I don't think you can generalize about villains... 569 00:37:22,824 --> 00:37:26,488 ...the same way as you can generalize about heroes across the board. 570 00:37:26,703 --> 00:37:30,116 You know, I do think that there are some villains who have a moral code... 571 00:37:30,331 --> 00:37:33,369 ...or have a line that they personally will not cross. 572 00:37:33,585 --> 00:37:38,705 Two-Face, where he basically lets his morality be decided by a flip of a coin. 573 00:37:38,923 --> 00:37:41,915 Sinestro certainly has a code of ethics he thinks he's following. 574 00:37:42,135 --> 00:37:44,001 And in a strange way he is following it. 575 00:37:44,220 --> 00:37:47,758 He believes in the Green Lantern Corps so much he's willing to be a villain to them. 576 00:37:47,974 --> 00:37:49,840 Allow me to introduce myself. 577 00:37:50,059 --> 00:37:53,097 I am he who is called Ra's al Ghul. 578 00:37:53,313 --> 00:37:55,645 Ra's al Ghul knows who Batman is. 579 00:37:55,857 --> 00:37:57,222 He can give it away. 580 00:37:57,442 --> 00:38:01,777 He doesn't because there's sort of a respect that he has for Batman. 581 00:38:01,988 --> 00:38:05,197 And he has this hope that one day Batman will come to his side... 582 00:38:05,408 --> 00:38:07,649 ...so he doesn't destroy Batman that way. 583 00:38:07,869 --> 00:38:11,737 Specifically, the Rogues, they won't kill somebody. That's where they draw the line. 584 00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:15,540 They do have their own-- It may be a warped code, but they have their code. 585 00:38:15,752 --> 00:38:18,915 If you go to the Rogues and say, “You have a chance to kill the Flash. 586 00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:22,998 Here's the plan. This is how we're gonna kill the Flash. We're gonna kill the Flash." 587 00:38:23,218 --> 00:38:25,676 Captain Cold would be like, "You're out of your mind. 588 00:38:25,887 --> 00:38:28,549 If we kill the Flash the whole Justice League's on top us. 589 00:38:28,765 --> 00:38:30,051 We don't need that right now. 590 00:38:30,266 --> 00:38:33,884 We have this thing going. We don't wanna kill the Flash. He's just in our way." 591 00:38:34,103 --> 00:38:37,095 There's versions of the Rogues who have been more bloodthirsty. 592 00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:42,276 Their versions, I don't respond to because I don't think that's who the Rogues are. 593 00:38:42,487 --> 00:38:44,854 The last thing they would ever do is kill the Flash. 594 00:38:45,073 --> 00:38:47,360 That doesn't mean they're uninteresting to watch... 595 00:38:47,575 --> 00:38:50,237 ...or uninteresting characters for the Flash to go against. 596 00:38:50,453 --> 00:38:54,117 That makes them more interesting. What are their motivations? 597 00:39:03,132 --> 00:39:07,217 The best villains represent the counterpoint to the hero. 598 00:39:07,428 --> 00:39:09,886 A polar opposite in many respects... 599 00:39:10,098 --> 00:39:15,684 ...but also bearing subtle or sometimes striking similarities. 600 00:39:15,895 --> 00:39:19,854 The villains often mirror the hero's dark reflection... 601 00:39:20,066 --> 00:39:24,401 ...the result of a divergent path, a different road taken. 602 00:39:24,612 --> 00:39:29,322 I think a good nemesis for a hero needs to have some of the hero in him... 603 00:39:29,534 --> 00:39:32,276 ...have some of the qualities of a hero in him. 604 00:39:32,495 --> 00:39:36,363 You are defined as much by the dark side of the mythology... 605 00:39:36,583 --> 00:39:39,325 ...as you are defined by this light side of mythology. 606 00:39:39,544 --> 00:39:43,754 So for every mythology about demons, there need to be angels and vice versa. 607 00:39:43,965 --> 00:39:47,333 You need to have a degree of polar opposite. 608 00:39:47,552 --> 00:39:49,839 At the same time, there needs to be those things... 609 00:39:50,054 --> 00:39:52,091 ...that make them mirror images of themselves. 610 00:39:52,307 --> 00:39:55,174 You have Ocean Master who is kind of a mirror of Aquaman. 611 00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:59,352 He is an Atlantean king, like Aquaman, but he's Aquaman gone wrong. 612 00:39:59,564 --> 00:40:02,022 He's "What if Aquaman went down a different path?" 613 00:40:02,233 --> 00:40:04,349 In the case of Flash, it's Reverse-Flash. 614 00:40:04,569 --> 00:40:07,778 Literally, it's a reverse version of the Flash, a mirror of him. 615 00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:10,026 And then the opposite would be Captain Cold. 616 00:40:10,241 --> 00:40:12,653 On first blush you're like, “Oh, it's ice. He slips." 617 00:40:12,869 --> 00:40:15,486 You look at Captain Cold and you analyze him a bit more. 618 00:40:15,705 --> 00:40:18,788 When introduced, he was called “The Man Who Mastered Absolute Zero." 619 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,367 And absolute zero means zero atomic motion. 620 00:40:21,586 --> 00:40:23,827 That means the atoms do not move. 621 00:40:24,047 --> 00:40:27,460 You know, when things are colder, they're slower on the atomic level. 622 00:40:27,675 --> 00:40:30,633 So that's why Captain Cold, to me, always captured... 623 00:40:30,845 --> 00:40:33,257 ...the essence of an opposite of the Flash. 624 00:40:33,473 --> 00:40:35,259 When you look at somebody like Batman... 625 00:40:35,475 --> 00:40:38,058 ...Catwoman is certainly the sexual challenge to him. 626 00:40:38,269 --> 00:40:40,385 Riddler is the intellectual challenge. 627 00:40:40,605 --> 00:40:44,064 Penguin is almost a mockery of what Bruce Wayne is on the social scene. 628 00:40:44,275 --> 00:40:49,236 And the Joker is the horrific version of what Batman is to ordinary people. 629 00:40:49,447 --> 00:40:53,736 Whereas Batman scares criminals, the Joker scares and horrifies the ordinary people. 630 00:40:53,952 --> 00:40:58,116 Black Adam is another good opposite number character. 631 00:40:58,331 --> 00:41:02,996 Kind of got a costume that's similar to Shazam's costume, but it's black. 632 00:41:03,211 --> 00:41:09,173 He's also another member of a police force that has kind of fallen from grace... 633 00:41:09,384 --> 00:41:15,630 ...the Wizards Protector Society, which is what Shazam is and what Black Adam was. 634 00:41:16,307 --> 00:41:19,390 The Crime Syndicate characters that have been around for decades... 635 00:41:19,602 --> 00:41:23,596 ...they come from a version-- A parallel Earth, a version of our Earth... 636 00:41:23,815 --> 00:41:27,024 ...where everyone who's good is bad and everyone who is bad is good. 637 00:41:27,235 --> 00:41:30,648 And so you've got an evil Superman in Ultraman. 638 00:41:30,863 --> 00:41:33,821 Then you have Owlman, who is a dark version of Batman. 639 00:41:34,033 --> 00:41:36,821 And Superwoman, who is a dark version of Wonder Woman. 640 00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,404 You have Johnny Quick and Power Ring. Power Ring is this Green Lantern... 641 00:41:40,623 --> 00:41:42,159 ...who's a coward. 642 00:41:42,375 --> 00:41:46,209 The Crime Syndicate represent the Justice League completely flipped on its head... 643 00:41:46,421 --> 00:41:49,163 ...and if they were horrible, horrible, evil people. 644 00:41:49,382 --> 00:41:52,215 In terms of what they can accomplish and who they can defeat... 645 00:41:52,427 --> 00:41:56,011 ...they're on par with the Justice League, but their goals are so perverted... 646 00:41:56,222 --> 00:41:59,590 ...compared to the honor and the morality that the Justice League have. 647 00:41:59,809 --> 00:42:05,771 Which leaves the governments of the world with two choices, bow down to us or die. 648 00:42:07,150 --> 00:42:10,939 The best supervillains that resonate the most, they do it on two levels. 649 00:42:11,154 --> 00:42:16,524 They do it-- How they psychologically reflect or challenge your superhero... 650 00:42:16,743 --> 00:42:21,032 ...and then also, in the story, what they've done to affect the superhero's life. 651 00:42:21,247 --> 00:42:24,114 If there is not that personal connection, it just weakens it. 652 00:42:24,333 --> 00:42:27,416 It just becomes another person trying to do something dastardly. 653 00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:31,462 When well-paired, the villain's been able to get inside the superhero's head. 654 00:42:31,674 --> 00:42:35,963 It's almost as if he knows precisely what makes them vulnerable, what their greatest fear is. 655 00:42:36,179 --> 00:42:38,637 When they make it personal and can make it personal... 656 00:42:38,848 --> 00:42:43,058 ...when the villains have the knowledge to make it personal and know your inner secrets... 657 00:42:43,269 --> 00:42:44,759 ...that's when things get real. 658 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,097 Talia al Ghul, she fell in love with Batman. 659 00:42:48,316 --> 00:42:51,684 So when it comes to the point of killing Batman... 660 00:42:51,903 --> 00:42:54,736 ...many times in many stories, she draws the line there. 661 00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:57,814 She will not kill him. She wants him for her own. 662 00:43:00,828 --> 00:43:05,868 Star Sapphire was not only Hal Jordan's boss, but also girlfriend. 663 00:43:06,084 --> 00:43:08,041 And when she was manipulated... 664 00:43:08,252 --> 00:43:12,746 ...she did not know consciously that she had become Star Sapphire. 665 00:43:12,965 --> 00:43:16,378 Then you've got this interesting dynamic... 666 00:43:16,594 --> 00:43:21,930 ...of when he ultimately finds out that this is his girlfriend and he's got to battle her. 667 00:43:22,141 --> 00:43:27,307 And how does he battle her when she's so smart without hurting her? 668 00:43:27,522 --> 00:43:33,484 That kind of conflict of people who were once friends and become enemies... 669 00:43:33,694 --> 00:43:39,360 ...you know, it's almost like the Greek tragedies, these enormous stories of betrayal. 670 00:43:39,575 --> 00:43:41,566 I just ended my run with Green Lantern 20. 671 00:43:41,786 --> 00:43:48,078 And as I was wrapping it up the story kind of organically revolved around not only Hal... 672 00:43:48,292 --> 00:43:51,785 ...but Hal and Sinestro and that relationship is really key to Green Lantern. 673 00:43:52,004 --> 00:43:56,214 There is this moment where Sinestro, who blames the Guardians of the Universe... 674 00:43:56,425 --> 00:43:58,666 ...who have done all these horrible things... 675 00:43:58,886 --> 00:44:01,674 ...against the Corps they created-- They tried to destroy it. 676 00:44:01,889 --> 00:44:04,756 They're ultimately the big bad guys of the piece. 677 00:44:04,976 --> 00:44:08,264 And Sinestro vows to destroy them. "I'm going to kill them one by one." 678 00:44:08,479 --> 00:44:11,187 And Hal says, "I can't let you do that." And he grabs him. 679 00:44:11,399 --> 00:44:13,891 And Sinestro says, "You think they can still be saved? 680 00:44:14,110 --> 00:44:16,192 You think that they can be redeemed?" 681 00:44:16,404 --> 00:44:19,237 And Hal says, “This isn't about them, this is about you." 682 00:44:19,448 --> 00:44:21,280 He says, "I wanna save you. 683 00:44:21,492 --> 00:44:24,985 You don't have to lower yourself to this level. You don't have to kill them. 684 00:44:25,204 --> 00:44:27,036 You can be a great Green Lantern." 685 00:44:27,248 --> 00:44:30,286 And he goes, "Because I believe in you." 686 00:44:30,501 --> 00:44:34,790 And Sinestro looks at him and he says, “Jordan, it's too late. I've already killed them." 687 00:44:35,006 --> 00:44:39,466 And you reveal that Sinestro has already wiped out the Guardians, one by one by one. 688 00:44:39,677 --> 00:44:41,839 And Sinestro's like, "I'm leaving forever. 689 00:44:42,054 --> 00:44:44,716 But before I go, you had a question you wanted to ask me." 690 00:44:44,932 --> 00:44:48,300 And Hal says, you know, "Were we ever friends, Sinestro?" 691 00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:51,181 And Sinestro, who has never called him by his first name-- 692 00:44:51,397 --> 00:44:52,728 He's always called him Jordan. 693 00:44:52,940 --> 00:44:55,648 --Says, "You know, that's the tragedy of all this, Jordan." 694 00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:58,773 He goes, "Hal, we'll always be friends." 695 00:45:01,157 --> 00:45:04,695 Might is not reserved solely for the just. 696 00:45:04,911 --> 00:45:08,495 While heroes can exhibit incredible strength or skills... 697 00:45:08,706 --> 00:45:14,497 ...villains may possess abilities equal to or even greater than their foes. 698 00:45:14,712 --> 00:45:18,205 It's not enough for villains merely to offer a challenge to the heroes... 699 00:45:18,966 --> 00:45:23,711 ...but, rather, they must present the all-too-real possibility... 700 00:45:23,930 --> 00:45:28,140 ...that good might not triumph over evil. 701 00:45:28,351 --> 00:45:30,888 You're defined by the height of the mountain you climb. 702 00:45:31,103 --> 00:45:35,893 And so the higher the mountain, the more the epic struggle it is to climb that... 703 00:45:36,108 --> 00:45:39,692 ...the greater the adventure, the greater the hero. 704 00:45:39,904 --> 00:45:44,489 If I have the powers of the gods, then am I not a god myself? 705 00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:47,943 A good villain, you have to believe that he can win. 706 00:45:48,162 --> 00:45:53,532 If you have Superman fighting a common mugger, that's not interesting. 707 00:45:53,751 --> 00:45:55,412 You know that Superman's gonna win. 708 00:45:55,628 --> 00:46:00,338 The idea that Lex Luthor can out-think Superman, that he is smarter than Superman... 709 00:46:00,549 --> 00:46:06,841 ...and no matter what Superman's powers are, Lex Luthor can think of a way to defeat him... 710 00:46:07,056 --> 00:46:11,345 ...makes that dynamic between the pair of them brilliant. 711 00:46:12,812 --> 00:46:15,895 It's why we created Ra's al Ghul. 712 00:46:16,107 --> 00:46:19,566 You need a Moriarty for Sherlock Holmes. 713 00:46:19,777 --> 00:46:25,898 If Sherlock Holmes is superior to every criminal out there... 714 00:46:26,117 --> 00:46:27,278 ...what's his value? 715 00:46:27,493 --> 00:46:31,407 So we want Sherlock Holmes to have a Moriarty. 716 00:46:31,622 --> 00:46:34,034 We want Batman to have a Ra's al Ghul. 717 00:46:34,250 --> 00:46:36,457 And we want it to be neck and neck. 718 00:46:41,299 --> 00:46:44,508 Superman has all his powers because he's on Earth... 719 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,008 ...and watching Zod discover that he has those same powers... 720 00:46:49,223 --> 00:46:53,091 ...I think Superman and Zod could fight for centuries. 721 00:46:53,311 --> 00:46:55,973 And basically, it just comes down to... 722 00:46:56,188 --> 00:47:01,729 The person who's gonna win that fight is the person who puts the most heart into it. 723 00:47:01,944 --> 00:47:05,403 When I was writing Superman, I created the character called Mongul... 724 00:47:05,614 --> 00:47:08,231 ...who has become very big in the mythos since. 725 00:47:08,451 --> 00:47:11,034 Basically, because I felt, "All right, this is silly. 726 00:47:11,245 --> 00:47:13,657 You've got a guy here who moves planets... 727 00:47:13,873 --> 00:47:17,491 ...and he has to fight a guy he has to outsmart to beat. 728 00:47:17,710 --> 00:47:20,372 What about somebody who can kick his butt?" 729 00:47:20,588 --> 00:47:23,546 So I came up with Mongul, who was bigger and strong and taller. 730 00:47:23,758 --> 00:47:25,920 And he gives somebody a physical challenge. 731 00:47:26,135 --> 00:47:32,677 Somebody Superman has to work to beat, just on a hands-on basis. 732 00:47:35,561 --> 00:47:40,772 Darkseid is a great villain just because of the amount of power that he holds. 733 00:47:40,983 --> 00:47:46,729 He's godlike and it's not easy to fight him and come back alive. 734 00:47:46,947 --> 00:47:52,363 Going up against a character like Darkseid really proves your hero's worth. 735 00:47:52,787 --> 00:47:57,907 The Anti-Monitor is a character like Darkseid, one of our cosmic-level villains. 736 00:47:58,125 --> 00:48:00,583 He's a force of nature, a force of danger. 737 00:48:00,795 --> 00:48:05,756 Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor can literally cross time and space... 738 00:48:05,966 --> 00:48:11,086 ...and they represent a threat that, again, only a hero such as Superman... 739 00:48:11,305 --> 00:48:17,677 ...or a hero of that level can face and that's why they are almost more frightening. 740 00:48:17,895 --> 00:48:20,853 Again, to an earlier point, that's why we need a Superman... 741 00:48:21,065 --> 00:48:24,478 ...because they have to deal with threats that we as common people can't. 742 00:48:26,237 --> 00:48:30,151 In a battle of equals, the outcome always remains uncertain... 743 00:48:31,117 --> 00:48:34,655 ...and, on occasion, fortune favors the fiendish. 744 00:48:35,788 --> 00:48:38,246 The villain escapes soot-free. 745 00:48:38,457 --> 00:48:42,371 They get their lucky break or manage to land the killing blow. 746 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:49,462 What does it mean when the hero falls in battle and the villain emerges victorious? 747 00:48:49,677 --> 00:48:54,547 If it's all too clean and too neat, why are we continuing to buy books? 748 00:48:54,765 --> 00:48:58,099 Why are we continuing to read these stories... 749 00:48:58,310 --> 00:49:01,678 ...if we don't have the sense that there's a certain danger... 750 00:49:01,897 --> 00:49:04,855 ...or a mortal danger to our hero? 751 00:49:05,067 --> 00:49:07,900 You know, we have a very clear statement. We said, you know: 752 00:49:08,112 --> 00:49:10,649 "The hero has to win every time. 753 00:49:10,865 --> 00:49:12,902 The villain only has to win once." 754 00:49:13,117 --> 00:49:16,985 Even though we want ultimate good to triumph over evil... 755 00:49:17,204 --> 00:49:21,198 ...there will be battles along the way where there are setbacks. 756 00:49:21,417 --> 00:49:26,002 The question of "Can the villain succeed?" Is always a tricky one. 757 00:49:26,213 --> 00:49:27,248 I believe they can... 758 00:49:27,465 --> 00:49:33,802 ...but obviously you have to make certain that you're careful, the extent of it. 759 00:49:34,013 --> 00:49:35,845 There are different kinds of villains... 760 00:49:36,056 --> 00:49:39,265 ...and thus different kinds of impact to what a villain does. 761 00:49:39,477 --> 00:49:41,593 Most of the criminal villains... 762 00:49:41,812 --> 00:49:45,100 ...the guys who are just out there to rob a bank or do whatever... 763 00:49:45,316 --> 00:49:47,648 ...don't leave lasting impact. 764 00:49:47,860 --> 00:49:53,981 The ones like the Joker potentially can affect an entire series. 765 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,532 Don't you just love a happy ending? 766 00:49:56,744 --> 00:50:01,409 One of the risks of being a superhero is that the people that you love... 767 00:50:01,624 --> 00:50:05,117 ...whether they're superheroes themselves or citizens... 768 00:50:05,336 --> 00:50:06,918 ...you put them at risk. 769 00:50:07,129 --> 00:50:11,418 And so with Jason Todd, essentially that is what happened... 770 00:50:11,634 --> 00:50:14,843 ...where the Joker murders him... 771 00:50:15,054 --> 00:50:21,391 ...and we have one of these rare instances where a primary character was murdered. 772 00:50:21,602 --> 00:50:24,594 For Batman, that meant incredible guilt. 773 00:50:24,813 --> 00:50:27,931 That meant feeling that he was responsible for the death... 774 00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:31,188 ...and that was what the Joker essentially wanted. 775 00:50:33,572 --> 00:50:36,655 I always loved Black Manta. You never knew his real name. 776 00:50:36,867 --> 00:50:40,952 He had that helmet that covered his face. He killed Aquaman's baby. 777 00:50:41,163 --> 00:50:45,327 You have to be a real sick, cold bastard to kill a baby. 778 00:50:45,543 --> 00:50:48,581 It felt so horrific to me that I couldn't do anything... 779 00:50:48,796 --> 00:50:52,664 ...but look at this character and go, “This is the coldest guy in the DC universe." 780 00:50:52,883 --> 00:50:55,671 In a lot of ways, I think Black Manta to Aquaman... 781 00:50:55,886 --> 00:51:00,005 ...is very much akin to what Bane is to the Batman. 782 00:51:01,850 --> 00:51:04,217 Both characters were very capable... 783 00:51:04,436 --> 00:51:08,475 ...and did cause great harm and pain to the main characters. 784 00:51:08,691 --> 00:51:13,060 When Bane broke Bruce Wayne's back... 785 00:51:13,279 --> 00:51:16,442 ...it was proof positive to all the readers around the world... 786 00:51:16,657 --> 00:51:19,524 ...that, yes, you got this right all these years. 787 00:51:20,202 --> 00:51:22,489 This is a superhero who has no superpowers... 788 00:51:22,705 --> 00:51:26,243 ...who, arguably, his greatest superpower is his humanity... 789 00:51:26,458 --> 00:51:27,493 ...who is vulnerable... 790 00:51:27,710 --> 00:51:30,793 ...whom you can identify with because he has no superpowers. 791 00:51:31,005 --> 00:51:35,420 And now, maybe for the first time, we're taking that one extra step. 792 00:51:35,634 --> 00:51:37,170 We are crossing the Rubicon... 793 00:51:37,386 --> 00:51:40,799 ...and we are showing you, and his back is broken... 794 00:51:41,015 --> 00:51:44,599 ...and Batman is either dead or incapacitated. 795 00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:48,644 And I think readers still remember that. Readers have a visceral reaction to that. 796 00:51:48,856 --> 00:51:51,769 This is someone who could hurt Batman. This is someone Batman... 797 00:51:51,984 --> 00:51:54,351 ...even in his calmest of nights wakes up and thinks: 798 00:51:54,570 --> 00:51:57,858 "This is a guy who once really severely hurt me, who's still out there." 799 00:51:58,073 --> 00:52:01,907 So I think that's why Bane still has that kind of attraction to readers. 800 00:52:04,288 --> 00:52:08,828 What Bane was to Batman, Doomsday was to Superman... 801 00:52:09,043 --> 00:52:12,411 ...the embodiment of brutal physical force. 802 00:52:14,381 --> 00:52:17,999 This is the great fear Superman has. 803 00:52:18,218 --> 00:52:22,257 Having a foe that he cannot find a way to stop one way or another. 804 00:52:22,473 --> 00:52:24,635 He was designed to kill Superman. 805 00:52:24,850 --> 00:52:28,013 Every time he dies, he comes back stronger... 806 00:52:28,228 --> 00:52:31,516 ...with whatever killed him now no longer something that can kill him. 807 00:52:31,732 --> 00:52:34,941 Doomsday stirs up massive chaos... 808 00:52:35,152 --> 00:52:40,022 ...and delivers the hero his biggest defeat ever. 809 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:42,948 Doomsday kills Superman. 810 00:52:43,827 --> 00:52:48,993 I can't think of another villain where his appearance on the stage is enough that... 811 00:52:49,208 --> 00:52:51,916 ...you know, the world is shaking. 812 00:52:52,127 --> 00:52:56,872 I would even argue that the death of Superman story itself isn't even a story. 813 00:52:57,091 --> 00:52:58,707 It's just a fight scene. 814 00:52:58,926 --> 00:53:02,339 The story comes from how the world reacts afterwards. 815 00:53:02,554 --> 00:53:04,795 When you get to see the "Funeral For a Friend"... 816 00:53:05,015 --> 00:53:07,131 ...you see what Superman meant to the world... 817 00:53:07,351 --> 00:53:10,139 ...which reflected what the real world did a lot... 818 00:53:10,354 --> 00:53:13,221 ...when they thought we were really gonna leave Superman dead. 819 00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,977 They went crazy sad. 820 00:53:18,987 --> 00:53:22,901 Any time you have that level of tragedy impacting a DC character... 821 00:53:23,117 --> 00:53:26,781 ...we go through and show the repercussions of that act... 822 00:53:26,995 --> 00:53:30,078 ...and how it affects the relationships between all the heroes... 823 00:53:30,290 --> 00:53:32,873 ...and the impact it has on all their friends and family. 824 00:53:33,085 --> 00:53:35,326 And so, to me, it's not done lightly. 825 00:53:35,546 --> 00:53:38,288 We don't have last episodes. We have the next episode. 826 00:53:38,507 --> 00:53:41,625 And we do have to deal with the repercussions. 827 00:53:41,844 --> 00:53:45,428 And, again, if the bad guys are winning too often... 828 00:53:45,639 --> 00:53:51,055 ...then that hero doesn't deserve his own title and he should probably stop being a hero. 829 00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:54,388 Superman died, but that wasn't what the story was about. 830 00:53:54,606 --> 00:53:57,143 His death was a piece of that story. 831 00:53:57,359 --> 00:53:59,316 It was almost the beginning of the story. 832 00:53:59,528 --> 00:54:03,487 And then Dan Jurgens and Mike Carlin, all those guys created Reign of the Supermen... 833 00:54:03,699 --> 00:54:05,986 ...which is all about Superman's return. 834 00:54:06,744 --> 00:54:09,236 With Batman breaking his back, it was the same thing. 835 00:54:09,455 --> 00:54:10,695 How strong is Bruce Wayne? 836 00:54:10,914 --> 00:54:13,076 His back's broken, but the city still needs him. 837 00:54:13,292 --> 00:54:15,454 So he heals himself and comes back as Batman. 838 00:54:15,669 --> 00:54:18,502 He overcomes that. But sometimes the villains do win... 839 00:54:18,714 --> 00:54:20,876 ...but it's only momentarily. 840 00:54:21,091 --> 00:54:26,837 Any general can tell you it's not the battles, it's the ultimate war. 841 00:54:27,055 --> 00:54:31,595 And I think if you look at the grand scope of the DC universe... 842 00:54:31,810 --> 00:54:34,177 ...it is ultimately good triumphing over evil. 843 00:54:34,396 --> 00:54:37,058 The best stories, the stories that kind of last with you... 844 00:54:37,274 --> 00:54:41,609 ...are the ones that even though good wins, there's a price to be had for that victory. 845 00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:47,065 I don't consider the hero having a victory if it doesn't come at a cost. 846 00:54:47,284 --> 00:54:51,278 They have to have something sacrificed, either personal or physical... 847 00:54:51,497 --> 00:54:53,158 ...that occurs every time they win. 848 00:54:53,373 --> 00:54:58,539 They have to be giving up something of what they are in order to help mankind. 849 00:54:58,754 --> 00:55:01,746 They're making a sacrifice every time they put that costume on... 850 00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:06,129 ...every time they're confronting something and putting themselves at risk. 851 00:55:06,345 --> 00:55:10,054 So, therefore, there should be something given up in their social life... 852 00:55:10,265 --> 00:55:12,347 ...their personal life, about who they are. 853 00:55:12,559 --> 00:55:15,392 They should be a little broken because of what they've done. 854 00:55:15,604 --> 00:55:19,563 Only thing that keeps them going is that they're doing something for the better good... 855 00:55:19,775 --> 00:55:21,391 ...and for helping other people. 856 00:55:27,950 --> 00:55:31,193 In the history of comics, DC in particular... 857 00:55:31,411 --> 00:55:34,369 ...there are not hundreds, there are thousands of supervillains. 858 00:55:34,581 --> 00:55:35,946 Thousands of supervillains. 859 00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:38,658 And there's no way we can talk about all of them. 860 00:55:38,877 --> 00:55:40,834 We can only talk about a fraction of them. 861 00:55:41,046 --> 00:55:44,459 I think that the very fact that we have such a wide variety of villains... 862 00:55:44,675 --> 00:55:46,882 ...that can be anything from, you know... 863 00:55:47,094 --> 00:55:50,758 ...essentially, a high-tech bank robber to someone like Darkseid who is a new god... 864 00:55:50,973 --> 00:55:53,214 ...is something I think strengthens our universe. 865 00:55:53,433 --> 00:55:57,347 It gives us, you know, a great spectrum of villainy. 866 00:55:57,563 --> 00:56:00,897 NARRATOR". This spectrum of evil is diverse and dynamic... 867 00:56:01,108 --> 00:56:06,820 ...falling into a vast array of villainous categories and characteristics. 868 00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:11,649 Indeed, the tropes and commonalities of villainy are far-reaching. 869 00:56:11,869 --> 00:56:14,782 First off is the uncontrollable beast... 870 00:56:14,997 --> 00:56:21,209 ...that rages and rains down destruction on those unfortunate souls caught in its path... 871 00:56:21,420 --> 00:56:22,581 ...the monster. 872 00:56:22,796 --> 00:56:24,628 My favorite monster is my-- 873 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,333 The classic monsters, the reason that they're enduring and scary... 874 00:56:28,552 --> 00:56:31,670 ...is because they almost-- They look like people that you love... 875 00:56:31,889 --> 00:56:33,880 ...or that you care about or that you trust. 876 00:56:34,099 --> 00:56:35,885 Your neighbors, your wife, your mother. 877 00:56:36,101 --> 00:56:40,186 Then something infects them or turns them into something that's an unstoppable force. 878 00:56:40,397 --> 00:56:44,937 Probably the most illustrious monster of the Golden Age of comics was Solomon Grundy. 879 00:56:45,152 --> 00:56:46,267 He's an animated corpse. 880 00:56:46,486 --> 00:56:49,695 The heroes, even Batman, is okay with trying to destroy Grundy... 881 00:56:49,907 --> 00:56:51,318 ...because he's dead already. 882 00:56:51,533 --> 00:56:54,275 I like Bizarro Superman because he's just so off-the-wall. 883 00:56:54,494 --> 00:56:58,032 I mean, he's like just sort of a crazy super powerful... 884 00:56:58,248 --> 00:57:02,207 ...almost Frankenstein monster version of Superman. 885 00:57:02,419 --> 00:57:04,501 A villain as old as literature... 886 00:57:04,713 --> 00:57:08,331 ...but only heightened by the advent of the atomic bomb... 887 00:57:08,550 --> 00:57:12,965 ...the mad scientist reflects our mistrust and fear of technology... 888 00:57:13,180 --> 00:57:16,343 ...of advances that could undo us as a people. 889 00:57:16,558 --> 00:57:19,767 New inventions come along that could be... 890 00:57:19,978 --> 00:57:24,097 ...the most wonderful boon for humanity... 891 00:57:24,316 --> 00:57:26,853 ...or it could mean the seeds of their destruction. 892 00:57:27,069 --> 00:57:32,690 So it figures that mad scientists would be one of the true fears... 893 00:57:32,908 --> 00:57:35,946 ...incorporated into the personified forms of supervillains. 894 00:57:36,161 --> 00:57:42,533 Doctor Sivana was a cackling, bald, bespectacled scientist... 895 00:57:42,751 --> 00:57:45,118 ...who usually could be seen in a white coat. 896 00:57:45,337 --> 00:57:50,673 And he was responsible continually for the near demise of Shazam. 897 00:57:50,884 --> 00:57:53,876 Before there was a Doctor Sivana, for Lex Luthor... 898 00:57:54,096 --> 00:57:57,054 ...there was the Ultra-Humanite... 899 00:57:57,265 --> 00:58:00,803 ...who was sort of like the very first mad scientist. 900 00:58:01,019 --> 00:58:05,764 He put his brain into other people's bodies, or his consciousness in other people's bodies. 901 00:58:05,983 --> 00:58:09,101 So I believe, at one time, he was a beautiful woman. 902 00:58:09,319 --> 00:58:13,153 He was different people throughout his history. 903 00:58:13,365 --> 00:58:15,902 And now he's like a white ape-like creature. 904 00:58:16,118 --> 00:58:17,984 Charmed, I'm sure. 905 00:58:18,203 --> 00:58:21,321 But that just goes to show the power of the mind over the matter. 906 00:58:21,540 --> 00:58:23,952 It doesn't matter what you look like on the outside. 907 00:58:24,167 --> 00:58:28,035 As long as that brain survives, that brain is going to be trouble for you. 908 00:58:28,255 --> 00:58:29,620 NARRATOR". A militant general... 909 00:58:30,757 --> 00:58:33,249 ...a despot, a conqueror. 910 00:58:33,468 --> 00:58:37,962 This is a villain not far removed from our world's own tyrants. 911 00:58:38,181 --> 00:58:43,426 We know them as the dictator, or more simply the overlord. 912 00:58:44,021 --> 00:58:47,434 I have a duty to my people. 913 00:58:47,649 --> 00:58:52,234 And I will not allow anyone to prevent me from carrying it out. 914 00:58:52,446 --> 00:58:54,483 With Zod, it's a pure power thing. 915 00:58:54,740 --> 00:58:56,981 There's something very moving about the fact... 916 00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:58,986 ...that this story begins with him... 917 00:58:59,202 --> 00:59:04,788 ...basically seeing his entire planet explode... 918 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,209 ...like his home evaporate into nothing. 919 00:59:08,420 --> 00:59:13,836 I can't imagine a bigger launching-off point for a character... 920 00:59:14,051 --> 00:59:19,842 ...and then knowing that he'll do whatever he can to make a new Krypton... 921 00:59:20,057 --> 00:59:22,139 ...because he can't help himself. 922 00:59:22,350 --> 00:59:23,966 It's the only option he has. 923 00:59:24,186 --> 00:59:26,143 It's what he was born to do. 924 00:59:26,354 --> 00:59:29,016 That's what he's been training to do his whole life. 925 00:59:29,232 --> 00:59:31,439 He's fighting for Krypton, for his people. 926 00:59:31,651 --> 00:59:33,608 And he's a warrior. 927 00:59:33,820 --> 00:59:36,061 And so he's capable of committing, like... 928 00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:40,696 ...horrific crimes against humanity and/or anything living. 929 00:59:40,911 --> 00:59:44,779 Starro the Conqueror is an alien starfish. 930 00:59:44,998 --> 00:59:51,961 Giant starfish that comes down on Earth and seizes control city by city. 931 00:59:52,172 --> 00:59:56,962 Then in terms of seizing their minds, it was right out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. 932 00:59:57,552 --> 01:00:00,590 Culled from our own Mob-laden underworld... 933 01:00:00,806 --> 01:00:05,846 ...the criminal mastermind is both power-hungry and immoral. 934 01:00:06,061 --> 01:00:08,974 Feeding their insatiable desire for control... 935 01:00:09,189 --> 01:00:14,605 ...they keep the public in fear as they tighten their grasp on their domain. 936 01:00:14,820 --> 01:00:18,188 Certainly one of the great types of villains is the criminal mastermind... 937 01:00:18,406 --> 01:00:23,742 ...the guy who holds an entire city or town or village or whatever in a grip of fear. 938 01:00:23,954 --> 01:00:28,073 Penguin has what is informally known as a Napoleon complex... 939 01:00:28,291 --> 01:00:30,578 ...the small man who wants to be big. 940 01:00:30,794 --> 01:00:34,583 If he could lose that weight, he wouldn't, because it helps him take up more space. 941 01:00:34,798 --> 01:00:35,913 His hat makes him taller. 942 01:00:36,133 --> 01:00:38,750 His umbrella, when extended, helps him take up more area. 943 01:00:39,010 --> 01:00:41,502 From the very first story he appears in... 944 01:00:41,721 --> 01:00:44,713 ...he wants to rise up in high society and wants to be a crime boss. 945 01:00:44,933 --> 01:00:47,265 A number of stories feature him running for mayor... 946 01:00:47,477 --> 01:00:50,560 ...not because he wants to do something great. He wants that status. 947 01:00:50,772 --> 01:00:51,887 He wants the power... 948 01:00:52,107 --> 01:00:55,645 ...and he wants the status to be the big man over everybody else in Gotham. 949 01:00:55,861 --> 01:01:00,822 The criminal mastermind is sort of an extension of the real... 950 01:01:01,032 --> 01:01:06,198 ...Mob crime organizations or crime families that have been a part of American history... 951 01:01:06,413 --> 01:01:09,906 ...almost since the country was founded. That's a great character for comics... 952 01:01:11,376 --> 01:01:13,868 ...because you can take that into the area of caricature. 953 01:01:14,087 --> 01:01:15,828 Currently, guys like Black Mask. 954 01:01:16,047 --> 01:01:18,664 What's more hideous than a guy in this, you know... 955 01:01:18,884 --> 01:01:20,841 ...awful-looking skull mask... 956 01:01:21,052 --> 01:01:24,090 ...wearing a business suit, commanding a legion of street troopers? 957 01:01:24,306 --> 01:01:26,513 I mean, that's a great foe for Batman. 958 01:01:26,725 --> 01:01:30,969 To guys like Penguin, Black Mask, they're out to really dominate the city. 959 01:01:31,188 --> 01:01:35,477 They wanna be the distorted, hideous, grotesque face of Gotham City. 960 01:01:35,692 --> 01:01:39,230 - Can we get some girls in here? - Careful what you wish for. 961 01:01:45,911 --> 01:01:47,117 Unh! 962 01:01:50,415 --> 01:01:51,655 Cat got your tongue? 963 01:01:51,875 --> 01:01:53,240 The apple on the tree. 964 01:01:53,460 --> 01:01:56,418 The seductive siren song of the temptress. 965 01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:58,496 The femme fatale. 966 01:01:58,715 --> 01:02:04,336 The femme fatale crystallizes the qualities of both a villain and a love interest... 967 01:02:04,554 --> 01:02:06,511 mall at the same time. 968 01:02:06,723 --> 01:02:08,839 You can find roots in movies. 969 01:02:09,059 --> 01:02:11,266 You can find the actresses... 970 01:02:11,478 --> 01:02:16,063 ...who maybe inspired some of the villainesses who were created. 971 01:02:16,274 --> 01:02:22,111 And these were women who used their beauty to lure the hero in... 972 01:02:22,322 --> 01:02:25,110 ...to get the hero to do their bidding. 973 01:02:25,325 --> 01:02:27,657 And that of course was reflected in the comics. 974 01:02:27,869 --> 01:02:30,031 It was part of the inherent popular culture. 975 01:02:30,247 --> 01:02:33,956 Poison Ivy is a great example of a female villain... 976 01:02:34,167 --> 01:02:37,501 ...who will actually take advantage, knowing that the male characters... 977 01:02:37,712 --> 01:02:39,953 ...the male heroes, and even the male villains... 978 01:02:40,173 --> 01:02:43,837 ...that she's working with, are the ones susceptible to love... 979 01:02:44,052 --> 01:02:46,214 ...to connecting with her. 980 01:02:46,429 --> 01:02:51,390 And she uses those assumptions for her own gain. 981 01:02:51,601 --> 01:02:54,343 She finds that her power is in, essentially... 982 01:02:55,021 --> 01:02:59,606 ...taking advantage of other people's vulnerability to emotions. 983 01:02:59,818 --> 01:03:05,279 She took everything that could be seen as objectification towards women... 984 01:03:05,490 --> 01:03:08,653 ...and then used it as her own power and turns it around on the guys. 985 01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:11,280 She's very interested in controlling people. 986 01:03:11,496 --> 01:03:15,160 Harley Quinn is a case of love gone bad. 987 01:03:15,375 --> 01:03:20,165 The individual who's fascinated with the supervillains... 988 01:03:20,380 --> 01:03:24,374 "fascinated with their egos and their qualities, and Joker plays to that. 989 01:03:24,592 --> 01:03:27,835 So Harleen Quinzel is a woman... 990 01:03:28,054 --> 01:03:32,469 ...who is a psychiatry intern, essentially, at Arkham Asylum. 991 01:03:32,684 --> 01:03:34,891 When Bruce Timm and I wrote the origin for her... 992 01:03:35,103 --> 01:03:37,720 ...in Mad Love, then we really got into her personality. 993 01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:43,434 That she wanted to write a tell-all book about Gotham's psychotic criminals... 994 01:03:43,653 --> 01:03:46,736 ...then wound up falling under the sway of one and becoming one herself. 995 01:03:46,948 --> 01:03:50,157 She wants the toughest case possible. 996 01:03:50,368 --> 01:03:52,109 And who is the toughest case? It's the Joker. 997 01:03:52,329 --> 01:03:54,445 There's this connection that they have together. 998 01:03:54,664 --> 01:03:57,156 I think there is an element of manipulation on his end. 999 01:03:57,375 --> 01:03:59,412 That he, um... 1000 01:03:59,627 --> 01:04:03,621 I think he fancies her, but also that he's realizing that... 1001 01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,834 ...here's an opportunity for him to get out of Arkham Asylum. 1002 01:04:08,053 --> 01:04:09,714 Harley's a bit of a social chameleon. 1003 01:04:09,929 --> 01:04:14,014 She molds herself to the people around her. When she hangs out with heroes, she's heroic. 1004 01:04:14,225 --> 01:04:18,719 She hangs out with villains, she's villainous. When with the Joker, she's more murderous... 1005 01:04:18,938 --> 01:04:20,599 ...than she is at other times. 1006 01:04:20,815 --> 01:04:23,523 Some of the villainesses that we have in the DC universe... 1007 01:04:23,735 --> 01:04:26,898 - ...are almost more powerful than the villains. - The sky is the limit... 1008 01:04:27,113 --> 01:04:28,524 ...as far as female villains are concerned. 1009 01:04:28,740 --> 01:04:31,823 Someone like Cheetah, who is crazy ferocious. 1010 01:04:32,035 --> 01:04:35,448 With the Cheetah, I wanted to create somebody... 1011 01:04:35,663 --> 01:04:38,030 ...who resonated with Wonder Woman, with Diana. 1012 01:04:38,249 --> 01:04:40,786 We added kind of a back-story that they were friends... 1013 01:04:41,002 --> 01:04:43,414 ...and then ultimately she became the Cheetah. 1014 01:04:43,630 --> 01:04:46,543 And Wonder Woman later learned she was never really her friend. 1015 01:04:46,758 --> 01:04:50,251 It was all just a play, and it was a bond of trust that was broken. 1016 01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:54,464 And the Cheetah has turned into this savage creature that wants to destroy humanity... 1017 01:04:54,682 --> 01:04:57,765 ...as much as Wonder Woman wants to protect it. 1018 01:04:58,478 --> 01:04:59,593 At this point in time... 1019 01:04:59,813 --> 01:05:04,102 ...I think we're lucky enough to be in an era where there is a lot more equality. 1020 01:05:04,317 --> 01:05:06,399 And you're getting some great stories. 1021 01:05:06,611 --> 01:05:08,602 They can be defined by what their plot is... 1022 01:05:08,822 --> 01:05:13,737 ...what their motive is, what their goals are, what their methods are. 1023 01:05:13,952 --> 01:05:18,241 And that's great that you don't simply have to define them by gender. 1024 01:05:18,456 --> 01:05:21,369 The female villain, you know, historically... 1025 01:05:21,584 --> 01:05:23,621 ...goes back all the way to Greek mythology. 1026 01:05:23,837 --> 01:05:25,953 Look at a character like Hera, for instance... 1027 01:05:26,172 --> 01:05:30,416 ...who is both a heroine and a villain, depending on the story. 1028 01:05:30,635 --> 01:05:34,879 Other female villains throughout time have a lot of that same complexity to them. 1029 01:05:35,098 --> 01:05:37,430 You look at a character like Catwoman, for instance. 1030 01:05:37,642 --> 01:05:41,101 In her original incarnation, I believe, she was just an adventurer. 1031 01:05:41,312 --> 01:05:44,680 She was out there being a burglar and jewel robber... 1032 01:05:44,899 --> 01:05:47,231 ...simply because of the thrill of it. 1033 01:05:47,444 --> 01:05:51,233 We began learning more about her in the 80s, what her past might have been... 1034 01:05:51,448 --> 01:05:55,407 ...and that certainly made her more of a complex and more of a sympathetic character. 1035 01:05:55,618 --> 01:05:58,280 And then to the present day where she is... 1036 01:05:58,496 --> 01:06:01,113 ...I believe one of the members of the Justice League. 1037 01:06:01,332 --> 01:06:06,077 So she's gone all the way from being a villain to anti-hero to straight-on heroine. 1038 01:06:06,296 --> 01:06:11,416 She's very curious to us. She has that duality of both good and evil. 1039 01:06:11,634 --> 01:06:15,047 And I think that that allows her to be relatable. 1040 01:06:15,263 --> 01:06:18,005 I think that she's the most realistic. 1041 01:06:18,224 --> 01:06:24,220 It was just interesting to see this strong, female character. 1042 01:06:24,772 --> 01:06:26,388 And she was a precursor, I think... 1043 01:06:26,608 --> 01:06:30,226 ...to a lot of the sort of heroines that we now see on screen. 1044 01:06:30,445 --> 01:06:36,282 Women really started to become more popular on the big screen and on TV. 1045 01:06:36,493 --> 01:06:39,781 As a result, I think of characters like Catwoman being portrayed... 1046 01:06:39,996 --> 01:06:43,239 ...in the early days of television and film. 1047 01:06:43,458 --> 01:06:49,750 Today, happily, from what I have seen and read... 1048 01:06:49,964 --> 01:06:53,878 ...you have superheroes, superheroines, supervillains, supervillainesses... 1049 01:06:54,093 --> 01:06:55,583 ...all on a level playing field. 1050 01:06:55,803 --> 01:07:00,218 I think any time you can make the character strong... 1051 01:07:00,433 --> 01:07:04,222 ...whether they're male or female, you'll end up with a good villain. 1052 01:07:04,437 --> 01:07:08,305 It should come as no surprise, no coincidence, really... 1053 01:07:08,525 --> 01:07:12,814 ...that the more popular heroes are the ones who typically battle the most sinister... 1054 01:07:13,029 --> 01:07:15,691 ...and charismatic rogues' galleries. 1055 01:07:15,907 --> 01:07:18,740 For it's this dynamic roster of villains... 1056 01:07:18,952 --> 01:07:23,446 ...that bolster and buoy the popularity of our hero. 1057 01:07:23,665 --> 01:07:26,703 When you look at the very best characters, the very best heroes... 1058 01:07:26,918 --> 01:07:30,661 ...in comic book mythology, they typically have the strongest rogues' gallery. 1059 01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:36,171 I think you develop a better rogues' gallery around the superhero... 1060 01:07:36,386 --> 01:07:39,424 ...if the scale of the superhero... 1061 01:07:40,348 --> 01:07:45,809 ...is one where it's easy to imagine the villain coming into being. 1062 01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:49,354 You look at Batman, Batman ultimately is a human being. 1063 01:07:49,566 --> 01:07:54,686 So therefore you can have villains that face him that are human plus a little. 1064 01:07:54,904 --> 01:07:57,987 Batman's rogues' gallery, which I think is the best rogues' gallery... 1065 01:07:58,199 --> 01:08:00,987 ...of all the DC heroes, that resonates the most. 1066 01:08:01,202 --> 01:08:04,740 Those characters are considered, you know, sort of the greater villains. 1067 01:08:05,498 --> 01:08:11,995 There's an interesting thing about a lot of Batman's rogues... 1068 01:08:12,213 --> 01:08:16,582 ...and here I'm specifically thinking of, like, the Penguin and Two-Face... 1069 01:08:16,801 --> 01:08:18,542 ...and Clayface and the Joker. 1070 01:08:18,761 --> 01:08:22,254 They're all physically deformed in some way. 1071 01:08:22,473 --> 01:08:26,762 And that physical deformity actually drives their evil. 1072 01:08:26,978 --> 01:08:30,346 Massively more difficult to have villains of scale for Superman. 1073 01:08:30,565 --> 01:08:32,431 Character is incredibly powerful. 1074 01:08:32,650 --> 01:08:34,687 Who's tough enough to fight him? 1075 01:08:34,902 --> 01:08:41,740 Brainiac felt like a character who could actually fight Superman and win without superpowers... 1076 01:08:41,951 --> 01:08:44,864 ...because he's a computer. He's a computer character. 1077 01:08:45,079 --> 01:08:50,165 So you must be Brainiac. Okay. 1078 01:08:50,376 --> 01:08:53,585 Brainiac was an alien who was collecting cities... 1079 01:08:53,796 --> 01:08:56,879 ...of different world cultures as he moved throughout the galaxy... 1080 01:08:57,091 --> 01:08:59,002 ...throughout the universe. 1081 01:08:59,218 --> 01:09:03,587 And he comes to Earth to shrink Metropolis, among other cities... 1082 01:09:03,806 --> 01:09:05,422 ...and put it in a glass bottle... 1083 01:09:05,642 --> 01:09:10,728 ...and take it in his interplanetary collection back to wherever he may have come from. 1084 01:09:10,938 --> 01:09:14,681 We didn't want it to always be Lex Luthor that was fighting Superman, or Brainiac. 1085 01:09:14,901 --> 01:09:17,984 But then you start running out of the famous names. 1086 01:09:18,196 --> 01:09:21,109 So we kept coming up with new guys, you know. 1087 01:09:21,324 --> 01:09:27,445 The Parasite, he becomes this individual who draws power from others. 1088 01:09:27,664 --> 01:09:31,157 He draws super power from Superman or other superheroes he was around. 1089 01:09:31,376 --> 01:09:33,492 He draws life force from other people. 1090 01:09:33,711 --> 01:09:35,793 Sometimes even identity from other people. 1091 01:09:36,005 --> 01:09:38,167 I think Metallo's a really interesting villain. 1092 01:09:38,383 --> 01:09:42,217 And a large part of why I like him is because he was human... 1093 01:09:42,428 --> 01:09:44,635 ...but now he's got this Kryptonite heart. 1094 01:09:44,847 --> 01:09:48,135 So he still has a heart, but it's a deformed heart. 1095 01:09:48,351 --> 01:09:52,640 It's an obscene heart. It's a heart of evil. 1096 01:09:52,855 --> 01:09:59,022 And that heart affects what he does, and it has such a massive effect on Superman. 1097 01:09:59,237 --> 01:10:03,026 Characters like Superman and Wonder Woman, the rogues' galleries get a lot smaller. 1098 01:10:03,241 --> 01:10:05,699 Wonder Woman in particular has a very small gallery... 1099 01:10:05,910 --> 01:10:08,572 ...because of who she is and what she represents... 1100 01:10:08,788 --> 01:10:12,747 ...and how she becomes more iconic makes it harder to play off of her weaknesses... 1101 01:10:12,959 --> 01:10:15,917 ...because a lot of people don't see weaknesses in the character. 1102 01:10:16,129 --> 01:10:19,292 There's no major villainy that could exploit those weaknesses in her. 1103 01:10:19,507 --> 01:10:23,296 We added another layer to Wonder Woman's origin by making her the daughter of Zeus. 1104 01:10:23,511 --> 01:10:24,922 So she has divine blood. 1105 01:10:25,138 --> 01:10:28,551 And then we wanted to take it even further. 1106 01:10:28,766 --> 01:10:31,303 It's like, "Well, let's create somebody new, a new god." 1107 01:10:31,519 --> 01:10:34,557 And it is-- We created this character called the First Born. 1108 01:10:34,772 --> 01:10:38,606 He has no name. He was the first child of Zeus and Hera. 1109 01:10:38,818 --> 01:10:41,981 And he was cast out of Olympus because there was a prophecy... 1110 01:10:42,196 --> 01:10:43,812 ...that he would take over Olympus. 1111 01:10:44,031 --> 01:10:49,367 So here is her original brother who's been cast out of heaven and hated by all. 1112 01:10:49,579 --> 01:10:55,074 So now he's got a major hate-on for his family and the world. 1113 01:11:00,339 --> 01:11:04,048 Just as heroes wit! Bond together to fight a common enemy... 1114 01:11:04,260 --> 01:11:06,672 ...so too will the villains. 1115 01:11:06,888 --> 01:11:12,008 The fusion of good is matched only by the unification of evil. 1116 01:11:12,226 --> 01:11:17,096 The Crime Syndicate, the Secret Society... 1117 01:11:17,315 --> 01:11:21,354 ...the Rogues, the Legion of Doom. 1118 01:11:21,569 --> 01:11:23,480 Though their members differ... 1119 01:11:23,696 --> 01:11:28,406 ...all villain team-ups employ the same battle-tested strategy: 1120 01:11:28,618 --> 01:11:30,825 There is strength in numbers. 1121 01:11:31,037 --> 01:11:33,779 My favorite aspect of working in this business... 1122 01:11:33,998 --> 01:11:37,616 ...is when I have created various incarnations of various teams. 1123 01:11:37,835 --> 01:11:41,829 We need one character who can fly. We need one character who's really strong. 1124 01:11:42,048 --> 01:11:44,665 We need one character who's maybe got some magical powers. 1125 01:11:44,884 --> 01:11:47,717 And just putting that together is half the challenge. 1126 01:11:47,929 --> 01:11:50,717 The story writes itself more often than not after that. 1127 01:11:50,932 --> 01:11:52,843 In The Challenge of the Super Friends... 1128 01:11:53,059 --> 01:11:56,051 ...where you've got the Justice League members marching... 1129 01:11:56,270 --> 01:12:00,138 ...towards the screen and then the other side, the Legion of Doom are marching. 1130 01:12:00,358 --> 01:12:04,522 They're coming at each other, and there's this explosion when the two sides hit each other. 1131 01:12:04,737 --> 01:12:08,275 I mean, you know, as a 6-, 7-year-old kid, you know, it blew your mind. 1132 01:12:08,491 --> 01:12:12,280 Normally, villains are seen as individuals and they have their own personal plot... 1133 01:12:12,495 --> 01:12:14,862 ...to take over the world or something like that. 1134 01:12:15,081 --> 01:12:19,996 But the idea of them combining together, you know, makes their threat that much bigger. 1135 01:12:20,211 --> 01:12:24,296 Superviilain team-ups, ha, ha, are their own unique animal... 1136 01:12:24,507 --> 01:12:26,544 ...because on the one hand... 1137 01:12:26,759 --> 01:12:31,003 ...there's a huge potential and disappointment ratio... 1138 01:12:31,222 --> 01:12:33,179 ...when supervillains team up. 1139 01:12:33,391 --> 01:12:35,632 The potential is, well... 1140 01:12:35,852 --> 01:12:38,184 ...it's two great tastes that taste great together. 1141 01:12:38,396 --> 01:12:40,728 It's two threats are better than one. 1142 01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:44,058 You know, when Lex Luthor and Brainiac team up... 1143 01:12:44,277 --> 01:12:46,735 ...you know, when the Joker and the Riddler team up... 1144 01:12:46,946 --> 01:12:50,484 ...that's incredibly, you know, resonant and powerful. 1145 01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:54,409 The problem is that 99.9 percent of the time... 1146 01:12:54,620 --> 01:12:58,488 ...the ability of the superhero to overcome their plan... 1147 01:12:58,708 --> 01:13:03,202 ...is usually hidden in the conflict between the supervillains. 1148 01:13:03,421 --> 01:13:07,540 The supervillains, they can't get their act together. A comic book is 22 pages. 1149 01:13:07,758 --> 01:13:11,342 They can get their act together for 19 pages, but those last three are just, ugh... 1150 01:13:11,554 --> 01:13:12,885 ...they're just falling apart. 1151 01:13:13,097 --> 01:13:17,341 I'd like to complete this transaction with as little bloodshed as possible, Lex. 1152 01:13:17,852 --> 01:13:21,186 Now put your hands up and have Toy Man turn us around. 1153 01:13:22,398 --> 01:13:23,763 Don't look at him, Big Boy. 1154 01:13:24,609 --> 01:13:25,849 Grodd is leader. 1155 01:13:29,447 --> 01:13:33,611 The Rogues are different. The Rogues can come together for a common goal. 1156 01:13:33,826 --> 01:13:37,865 They're guys that seem silly at first, but you look at somebody like Mirror Master. 1157 01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:42,790 Okay, the guy can teleport through any reflective surface, not just a mirror. 1158 01:13:43,002 --> 01:13:46,620 He can bend light, illusions. 1159 01:13:46,839 --> 01:13:49,581 He can make himself appear in multiple places at once. 1160 01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,338 I mean, there's so many very interesting things that he can do on his own... 1161 01:13:53,554 --> 01:13:57,343 ...that when you put him into a group with other villains that are versatile... 1162 01:13:57,558 --> 01:14:02,974 ...you have a really cool set of personalities and powers. 1163 01:14:03,189 --> 01:14:06,181 Although, they do have, you know, specific rivalries. 1164 01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,062 Heat Wave and Captain Cold don't like each other. 1165 01:14:09,278 --> 01:14:12,020 Yeah, one's hot and one's cold, but there are reasons. 1166 01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:16,949 In our "Flash Run," all the Rogues... 1167 01:14:17,161 --> 01:14:20,654 ...they used to have guns and wands and mechanical devices dating back... 1168 01:14:20,873 --> 01:14:24,741 ...to when they were originally created. But we made them have superpowers... 1169 01:14:24,961 --> 01:14:26,668 ...and it's because of Captain Cold. 1170 01:14:26,879 --> 01:14:29,962 He made them undergo this transformation that gave them superpowers. 1171 01:14:30,174 --> 01:14:32,085 Well, it had negative side effects. 1172 01:14:32,301 --> 01:14:36,169 For poor Heat Wave, it burnt off basically all the top layer of his skin... 1173 01:14:36,389 --> 01:14:41,008 ...so he looks really gross and messed up, so he hates Captain Cold for making him that way. 1174 01:14:41,227 --> 01:14:42,467 Why do they hang out together? 1175 01:14:42,687 --> 01:14:45,179 There's strength in numbers, and Flash is fast enough... 1176 01:14:45,398 --> 01:14:47,605 ...he can fight more than one person at a time. 1177 01:14:47,817 --> 01:14:49,524 There's something about the Rogues. 1178 01:14:49,735 --> 01:14:52,352 They wanna pull their jobs, live their lives and be alone. 1179 01:14:52,571 --> 01:14:55,188 Like, it's their job to pull off heists and steal stuff. 1180 01:14:55,408 --> 01:14:58,901 That's how they make their living. They consider themselves blue-collar guys. 1181 01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:03,409 "Gonna pop a beer and we're gonna spend the money we made by robbing the bank." 1182 01:15:03,624 --> 01:15:07,663 What other villains can you think about? They pull a heist, they escape the Flash... 1183 01:15:07,878 --> 01:15:12,668 - ...and then they go to a bar to have a beer? - The Suicide Squad is the exception to the rule. 1184 01:15:12,883 --> 01:15:16,467 And what makes it interesting is it's a bunch of villains... 1185 01:15:16,679 --> 01:15:20,889 ...who are forced by the government to go on missions that are for the good of the people. 1186 01:15:21,100 --> 01:15:27,392 And if they fail, if they decide to try and escape, they have devices that will kill them. 1187 01:15:27,606 --> 01:15:28,937 So they are forced to do it. 1188 01:15:29,150 --> 01:15:32,939 I think the fact that they are forced to be heroes despite their own instincts... 1189 01:15:33,154 --> 01:15:36,772 ...and that they're constantly trying to work out ways to undermine missions... 1190 01:15:36,991 --> 01:15:40,609 ...and to sometimes betray their teammates and be villains even while they're-- 1191 01:15:40,828 --> 01:15:44,617 When they're forced to do the right thing is the reason why that team, that book... 1192 01:15:44,832 --> 01:15:51,249 - ...is always around and is always popular. - None of their motivation is theirs. 1193 01:15:51,464 --> 01:15:56,755 They're doing the bidding of Amanda Waller and the government. 1194 01:15:56,969 --> 01:15:59,506 Are the people that are planting these bombs... 1195 01:15:59,722 --> 01:16:01,963 ...on the backs of the Suicide Squad members... 1196 01:16:02,183 --> 01:16:03,264 ...are they the heroes? 1197 01:16:03,476 --> 01:16:05,433 You know, purportedly they are. 1198 01:16:05,644 --> 01:16:09,103 But the way they're doing it, it really, you know comes down to... 1199 01:16:09,315 --> 01:16:11,727 ...it's an extreme form of water boarding, I think. 1200 01:16:11,942 --> 01:16:18,564 They have reason to hate their handlers, who are supposed to be the good guys... 1201 01:16:18,783 --> 01:16:20,945 ...but they're not seen that way in the books. 1202 01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:26,906 So it's an interesting study in what makes a villain and what makes a hero... 1203 01:16:27,124 --> 01:16:29,286 ...because it's kind of flip-flopped in that book. 1204 01:16:29,502 --> 01:16:34,042 They're not there to personally screw the other guy standing next to them. 1205 01:16:34,256 --> 01:16:36,122 They are there to just survive. 1206 01:16:36,342 --> 01:16:40,802 And they are-- They don't want it to be their suicide mission. 1207 01:16:41,013 --> 01:16:44,927 And I do think that that's of a different and new angle. 1208 01:16:45,142 --> 01:16:47,850 Suicide Squad is successful, because it has a rotating cast. 1209 01:16:48,062 --> 01:16:50,975 You could kill some members off. There's always that question... 1210 01:16:51,190 --> 01:16:54,433 ...of something happening to the cast that could change the status quo. 1211 01:16:54,652 --> 01:16:57,565 There's always that anticipation that if a mission goes wrong... 1212 01:16:57,780 --> 01:16:59,737 ...somebody could actually die. 1213 01:16:59,949 --> 01:17:02,691 It's a gut-level survival instinct. 1214 01:17:02,910 --> 01:17:05,117 For the reader, you're just like: 1215 01:17:05,329 --> 01:17:08,742 "Who's gonna make it through this mission and how?" 1216 01:17:08,958 --> 01:17:13,168 You know, and then, you know, “Are they gonna manage to actually get free... 1217 01:17:13,379 --> 01:17:16,792 ...so they can take care of Amanda Waller?" Heh, heh, heh. 1218 01:17:17,007 --> 01:17:20,796 Sometimes it's more exciting to find a villain that's so powerful... 1219 01:17:21,011 --> 01:17:24,003 ...the combined might of an entire team can't defeat them. 1220 01:17:24,849 --> 01:17:27,807 So the superheroes and the supervillains have to band together... 1221 01:17:28,018 --> 01:17:29,508 ...put aside their differences. 1222 01:17:29,728 --> 01:17:33,392 You always have that classic shot where they reach out and shake hands... 1223 01:17:33,607 --> 01:17:34,972 ...and, like, "Let's team up." 1224 01:17:35,192 --> 01:17:37,433 And, to me, that's like the ultimate odd couple. 1225 01:17:37,653 --> 01:17:41,442 The problem is though that there aren't that many of those kinds of villains. 1226 01:17:41,657 --> 01:17:46,652 So it's always a challenge to find one villain powerful enough to take out all of them. 1227 01:17:46,871 --> 01:17:49,579 It's interesting that someone like Lex Luthor could do it... 1228 01:17:49,790 --> 01:17:52,077 ...just because he has the skill to out-think them. 1229 01:17:52,293 --> 01:17:56,708 So it isn't always power. Sometimes it's that X-factor. 1230 01:17:56,922 --> 01:18:00,165 But if you can manage to do the right storyline... 1231 01:18:00,384 --> 01:18:04,093 ...again, it can be a lot of fun and a really great challenge. 1232 01:18:04,305 --> 01:18:07,138 I'm not here to challenge you, Darkseid. Quite the contrary. 1233 01:18:07,349 --> 01:18:12,264 I've got something you want. The only thing you want. 1234 01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:14,265 People can identify with that... 1235 01:18:14,481 --> 01:18:20,147 ...because when we're faced with something that endangers... 1236 01:18:20,362 --> 01:18:21,648 ...our way of life... 1237 01:18:21,864 --> 01:18:24,026 ...we can set aside our differences and work together. 1238 01:18:29,788 --> 01:18:33,406 A fine line exists between a hero and villain. 1239 01:18:33,626 --> 01:18:36,038 And sometimes the line is crossed. 1240 01:18:36,253 --> 01:18:38,915 In essence, the hero becomes the villain. 1241 01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:43,466 But when a hero loses their way, is salvation possible? 1242 01:18:43,677 --> 01:18:47,966 One of the great classic stories of literature... 1243 01:18:48,182 --> 01:18:51,391 ...is the drama of the good man goes bad. 1244 01:18:51,602 --> 01:18:55,186 What is it that can happen to us that puts us through... 1245 01:18:55,397 --> 01:19:01,734 ...a set of circumstances that drives us to do something we don't morally believe in? 1246 01:19:01,946 --> 01:19:03,277 That's a powerful tale. 1247 01:19:03,489 --> 01:19:08,825 Trying to turn a hero, you have to actually figure out how to affect their moral center. 1248 01:19:09,036 --> 01:19:12,495 It's in the face of a planet being blown up, a city being blown up... 1249 01:19:12,706 --> 01:19:15,414 ...or a wife or a lover dying. 1250 01:19:16,794 --> 01:19:23,666 And the idea that "I wasn't strong enough, I wasn't powerful enough and perhaps... 1251 01:19:23,884 --> 01:19:26,592 ...me doing the right thing or being a hero was the problem. 1252 01:19:26,804 --> 01:19:30,422 If I'd been more vicious, if I'd been more brutal, I could have changed things." 1253 01:19:30,641 --> 01:19:37,479 I think every great turn of a hero to a villain, it comes from that. 1254 01:19:37,690 --> 01:19:43,060 In Injustice, the storyline is that the Joker has killed Lois... 1255 01:19:43,279 --> 01:19:48,274 ...and it's not just Lois' death that drives Superman to almost a level of insanity... 1256 01:19:48,492 --> 01:19:50,824 ...but the fact that Lois was carrying his child... 1257 01:19:51,036 --> 01:19:54,119 ...and so it has double significance and impact on him. 1258 01:19:54,873 --> 01:19:55,908 That's enough. 1259 01:19:59,670 --> 01:20:02,287 At that point, he kind of loses his frame of reference... 1260 01:20:02,506 --> 01:20:04,998 ...and decides to create almost a totalitarian state... 1261 01:20:05,217 --> 01:20:08,380 ...where he's the ultimate authority. So again in his mind... 1262 01:20:08,595 --> 01:20:12,839 ...he is trying to prevent what happened to Lois and his unborn child... 1263 01:20:13,058 --> 01:20:15,140 ...from happening in the world by becoming... 1264 01:20:15,352 --> 01:20:17,559 ...you know, the enlightened dictator. 1265 01:20:17,771 --> 01:20:20,980 But, you know, you see sort of the holes in logic of that. 1266 01:20:21,191 --> 01:20:24,980 You know, ultimately, you are creating a greater evil... 1267 01:20:25,195 --> 01:20:28,563 ...by trying to do some small sense of good. 1268 01:20:28,782 --> 01:20:32,116 There have been a few stories where heroes go villainous for some time... 1269 01:20:32,328 --> 01:20:36,367 ...and I think probably the most famous one is Hal Jordan when Coast City... 1270 01:20:36,582 --> 01:20:38,493 ...the city he called home, was attacked. 1271 01:20:38,709 --> 01:20:42,293 And many people were killed and destroyed and he wanted to bring them back. 1272 01:20:42,504 --> 01:20:45,838 And he went to the Guardians and said, "Give me this power so I can do it." 1273 01:20:46,050 --> 01:20:48,382 And they said no, and he ultimately killed them... 1274 01:20:48,594 --> 01:20:50,130 ...and became-- 1275 01:20:50,346 --> 01:20:52,804 Went crazy, became this big villain in the DC universe. 1276 01:20:53,015 --> 01:20:56,974 You know, they say that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. 1277 01:20:57,186 --> 01:21:00,474 Usually when a hero falls from grace it's because they've succumbed... 1278 01:21:00,689 --> 01:21:04,307 ...to their own power, like when Hal Jordan became Parallax. 1279 01:21:04,526 --> 01:21:07,439 It was Hal Jordan overreaching... 1280 01:21:07,654 --> 01:21:12,649 ...and trying to use his power as the Green Lantern to recreate an entire city... 1281 01:21:12,868 --> 01:21:15,155 ...and he kept wanting more and more power. 1282 01:21:15,371 --> 01:21:18,033 And he basically got corrupted by his own... 1283 01:21:18,248 --> 01:21:20,330 You know, by his own super power. 1284 01:21:20,542 --> 01:21:25,127 And I think that is usually the path down-- You know, down darkness. 1285 01:21:25,339 --> 01:21:27,296 Through becoming the Spectre... 1286 01:21:27,508 --> 01:21:30,842 ...and ultimately becoming Green Lantern again he found redemption. 1287 01:21:31,053 --> 01:21:35,672 But it took years and it was a great hero's journey that we got to witness. 1288 01:21:35,891 --> 01:21:39,634 Hal Jordan was always about overcoming fear and I thought, "Well... 1289 01:21:39,853 --> 01:21:43,892 ...if he's all about overcoming fear, there's gotta be a moment that he gave in to fear. 1290 01:21:44,108 --> 01:21:47,100 When was that weakness?" That weak point was when he was worried... 1291 01:21:47,319 --> 01:21:50,277 ...something else was gonna happen once Coast City was destroyed. 1292 01:21:50,489 --> 01:21:53,732 And in that moment, he let fear kind of take hold of his heart. 1293 01:21:53,951 --> 01:21:56,613 That's when Sinestro unleashed Parallax, who was this-- 1294 01:21:56,829 --> 01:22:01,448 We created this entity of terror that could possess his soul and corrupt his body. 1295 01:22:01,667 --> 01:22:04,284 And essentially turn him into Parallax. 1296 01:22:04,503 --> 01:22:09,122 And by having Hal still make a mistake and give in to fear... 1297 01:22:09,341 --> 01:22:12,379 ...it was still on point and gave him a point of failure. 1298 01:22:12,594 --> 01:22:13,800 But at the same time... 1299 01:22:14,012 --> 01:22:17,721 ...adding Parallax allowed for an easier redemption. 1300 01:22:17,933 --> 01:22:20,015 And so if a hero does cross the line... 1301 01:22:20,227 --> 01:22:23,686 ...does he just go back to work the next day? The idea was no. 1302 01:22:23,897 --> 01:22:27,356 It was a 10-year problem for him. 1303 01:22:27,568 --> 01:22:32,813 Comic books, by, I think, their basic nature is about wish fulfillment. 1304 01:22:33,031 --> 01:22:37,116 Therefore, the concept of second chances... 1305 01:22:38,287 --> 01:22:43,407 ...is actually built into the very concept of the type of material we do. 1306 01:22:43,625 --> 01:22:48,119 So the idea that a hero or a villain could be redeemed... 1307 01:22:48,338 --> 01:22:52,047 ...is exactly what comics have to be about. 1308 01:22:52,259 --> 01:22:55,718 We can take bad and turn it good. 1309 01:22:55,929 --> 01:22:58,296 And we can make good even better. 1310 01:22:58,515 --> 01:23:03,385 And that's what comics and fantasy storytelling is all about. 1311 01:23:03,604 --> 01:23:08,019 Cry for Justice began with a bunch of heroes trying to track down Prometheus. 1312 01:23:08,233 --> 01:23:12,067 Prometheus has actually taken the identity of one of the heroes. 1313 01:23:12,279 --> 01:23:16,193 So he actually is amongst them the entire time. 1314 01:23:16,408 --> 01:23:17,648 At the end of it... 1315 01:23:17,868 --> 01:23:20,951 ...Prometheus has worked out a way to destroy most of Star City... 1316 01:23:21,163 --> 01:23:25,282 ...which is Green Arrow's home. 1317 01:23:25,501 --> 01:23:28,209 He also maims Arsenal... 1318 01:23:28,420 --> 01:23:32,789 ...and then ultimately Arsenal's daughter is killed. 1319 01:23:33,383 --> 01:23:36,091 What happens at the very end is the one moderate person... 1320 01:23:36,303 --> 01:23:41,218 ...Green Arrow, then tracks down Prometheus on his own and executes him. 1321 01:23:41,433 --> 01:23:46,678 And that then led to a long arc for Green Arrow where he had to redeem himself. 1322 01:23:46,897 --> 01:23:49,685 Green Arrow crossed the line and took the life of a villain. 1323 01:23:49,900 --> 01:23:52,858 He did not just come back from that adventure... 1324 01:23:53,070 --> 01:23:56,358 ...and say, "Oh, well, I'm never gonna kill people again." 1325 01:23:56,573 --> 01:23:59,361 He had a mental breakdown, and we did a year... 1326 01:23:59,576 --> 01:24:03,035 ...a year and a half long story where he lost it. 1327 01:24:03,247 --> 01:24:08,742 And it was to show that there's consequences for this kind of stuff. 1328 01:24:08,961 --> 01:24:15,173 I do think that in modern comics, it's okay for the heroes to fail. 1329 01:24:15,384 --> 01:24:18,217 You just got to have it mean something. 1330 01:24:18,428 --> 01:24:20,920 And not just teach them something... 1331 01:24:21,139 --> 01:24:26,509 ...but have them suffer because they did something wrong. 1332 01:24:26,728 --> 01:24:30,972 Taking someone's life, you take away all they're gonna have and ever will be. 1333 01:24:31,191 --> 01:24:34,809 And it stays with you even if you do it for the right and proper thing. 1334 01:24:35,028 --> 01:24:38,862 So, you know, killing in comics is-- When the hero pulls the trigger... 1335 01:24:39,074 --> 01:24:42,567 ...I think it's not done a lot, but I think when it's done... 1336 01:24:42,786 --> 01:24:45,528 ...it has to be done in a real big way... 1337 01:24:45,747 --> 01:24:48,830 ...that has an emotional punch to the hero's psyche and soul. 1338 01:24:49,042 --> 01:24:52,000 After we've witnessed such heinous crimes... 1339 01:24:52,212 --> 01:24:54,954 ...after we've experienced firsthand... 1340 01:24:55,173 --> 01:25:00,634 ...pure evil in the face of villainy, can the evildoer be redeemed? 1341 01:25:00,846 --> 01:25:05,261 In this comic book world where heroes often get second chances... 1342 01:25:05,475 --> 01:25:08,137 ...can the villain ever be forgiven? 1343 01:25:08,353 --> 01:25:12,938 It's a lot harder to figure out how somebody who spent years... 1344 01:25:13,150 --> 01:25:16,233 ...taking what they wanted, killing people... 1345 01:25:16,445 --> 01:25:21,235 ...whatever set of misdeeds will suddenly turn around... 1346 01:25:21,450 --> 01:25:26,786 ...and find God and become moral the rest of their lives. 1347 01:25:26,997 --> 01:25:28,032 Does it happen? 1348 01:25:28,248 --> 01:25:32,458 Probably does in reality, but it's a real tough story to tell. 1349 01:25:32,669 --> 01:25:37,835 Black Adam is an interesting character. He was chosen by the wizard Shazam... 1350 01:25:38,050 --> 01:25:42,009 ...given powers back in the ancient Egyptian days. 1351 01:25:42,220 --> 01:25:45,087 He was a slave in Kahndaq. 1352 01:25:45,307 --> 01:25:48,641 He took these powers, became Black Adam, the champion, and he was a hero. 1353 01:25:48,852 --> 01:25:50,934 And over time, he was corrupted by that power. 1354 01:25:51,146 --> 01:25:54,935 He went back to Kahndaq and he said, “I'm leading Kahndaq now, you are free. 1355 01:25:55,150 --> 01:25:59,394 I'm here." And then he found someone he fell in love with. Isis was born... 1356 01:25:59,613 --> 01:26:04,232 ...and then Isis' brother Osiris. Like, we kind of created a Black Adam family. 1357 01:26:05,243 --> 01:26:09,282 And then that family was torn apart and they were killed. 1358 01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:14,334 And Isis, who had been such a great presence for Adam, who had preached peace. 1359 01:26:14,544 --> 01:26:20,165 As she's dying in his arms, the last words she says is, "Avenge us." 1360 01:26:20,384 --> 01:26:22,671 And that sends Black Adam off. 1361 01:26:22,886 --> 01:26:26,129 And he kills an entire country out of rage. 1362 01:26:26,348 --> 01:26:29,466 And, obviously, hard to redeem somebody after that. 1363 01:26:29,685 --> 01:26:32,768 He believes in doing the right thing. 1364 01:26:32,979 --> 01:26:36,893 He just goes about it in such a barbaric and awful way. 1365 01:26:37,109 --> 01:26:42,445 Pete Tomasi wrote a fantastic story wrapped around a character everybody should hate. 1366 01:26:42,656 --> 01:26:47,696 And made him-- You know, made him a hero... 1367 01:26:47,911 --> 01:26:50,448 ...in a very-- You know, from a very villainous past. 1368 01:26:50,664 --> 01:26:53,406 It's a weird spot to be in when you're a writer, when you have to say: 1369 01:26:53,625 --> 01:26:57,289 "I committed genocide, but I have to make this character relatable... 1370 01:26:57,504 --> 01:27:01,372 ...and in a weird way have people understand where he was coming from at that point." 1371 01:27:01,591 --> 01:27:04,879 So it's a tough line to walk when you're a writer writing a character... 1372 01:27:05,095 --> 01:27:07,712 ...who's as three-dimensional as Black Adam... 1373 01:27:07,931 --> 01:27:11,299 ...because he really is one of those great three-dimensional characters... 1374 01:27:11,518 --> 01:27:15,182 ...that you could horribly understand why he does something. 1375 01:27:15,397 --> 01:27:18,890 With villains, though, when you try and turn them into heroes... 1376 01:27:19,109 --> 01:27:23,194 ...they can lose their... What makes them special. 1377 01:27:23,405 --> 01:27:27,194 So it's a very rare case where a villain is better as a hero. 1378 01:27:27,409 --> 01:27:31,573 Most of the time most readers just can't wait for them to be villainous again. 1379 01:27:31,788 --> 01:27:33,825 When we worked on Dark Knight Returns... 1380 01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:36,452 ...where we have Doctor Wolper... 1381 01:27:36,668 --> 01:27:39,877 ...trying to bring the Joker back and trying to work with him... 1382 01:27:40,088 --> 01:27:42,455 ...and now Doctor Wolper also has an enormous ego. 1383 01:27:42,674 --> 01:27:45,757 And so you've got Joker's ego, Wolper's ego. 1384 01:27:45,969 --> 01:27:48,882 It doesn't work out well. It doesn't work out well for Wolper. 1385 01:27:50,807 --> 01:27:53,515 But the Joker absolutely was all about: 1386 01:27:53,727 --> 01:27:58,187 "I am rehabilitated. I'm here. I've seen the error of my ways." 1387 01:27:58,398 --> 01:28:02,232 And he really just used that as a matter to get himself out of Arkham... 1388 01:28:02,444 --> 01:28:04,435 ...so he could commit tremendous crimes. 1389 01:28:04,654 --> 01:28:08,693 I think some of them can be redeemed, but I think what you gotta do... 1390 01:28:08,909 --> 01:28:12,402 ...is you gotta dangle the sense of redemption in front of them then rip it away. 1391 01:28:12,621 --> 01:28:15,113 Ultimately, you show why they were a villain in the first place. 1392 01:28:21,338 --> 01:28:27,880 As society continues to evolve, so too do our villains. 1393 01:28:28,512 --> 01:28:30,844 In September of 2011... 1394 01:28:31,056 --> 01:28:34,139 ...DC relaunched its entire line of comics... 1395 01:28:34,351 --> 01:28:36,809 ...dubbed The New 52. 1396 01:28:37,020 --> 01:28:39,557 Two years ago, relaunched the DC universe. 1397 01:28:39,773 --> 01:28:43,687 We called that The New 52 and it was basically a soft reset of the universe... 1398 01:28:43,902 --> 01:28:47,145 ...where we basically fixed the things that we felt weren't working... 1399 01:28:47,364 --> 01:28:49,526 ...and kept going with the things that were. 1400 01:28:49,741 --> 01:28:53,609 We sat down and thought about: "What do we need more of in the DC universe?" 1401 01:28:53,829 --> 01:28:57,322 And one of the things that we wanted to address was the villains. 1402 01:28:57,541 --> 01:29:02,126 What is villainy to us in 2013? What is real evil in 2013? 1403 01:29:02,337 --> 01:29:06,331 It's horrendous, right? And sometimes if you get too close to the reality of it... 1404 01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:08,336 ...it takes you out of the comic book. 1405 01:29:08,552 --> 01:29:11,294 So using super villains as metaphors for whatever that is... 1406 01:29:11,513 --> 01:29:15,928 ...and for the brutal attacks that they do, it's gotten darker. It's darker. And it's scarier. 1407 01:29:16,142 --> 01:29:19,180 And the attacks come without notice sometimes and they're personal. 1408 01:29:19,396 --> 01:29:22,639 I think that's because we live in a very, sort of, fearful time. 1409 01:29:22,858 --> 01:29:25,190 Ever since 9/11, the world's been on edge... 1410 01:29:25,402 --> 01:29:28,394 ...and no one knows when the next shoe is gonna drop. 1411 01:29:28,613 --> 01:29:32,982 Is it gonna be a tsunami? Is it gonna be economic collapse? 1412 01:29:33,201 --> 01:29:36,193 Villains that sort of embody that sense of unpredictability... 1413 01:29:36,413 --> 01:29:40,702 ...that sense of, you know, doom can come in any form and at any time. 1414 01:29:40,917 --> 01:29:43,500 I think that speaks to everyone's sort of hidden fears. 1415 01:29:43,712 --> 01:29:48,502 Instead of characters of good and evil, it became about characters of order and chaos. 1416 01:29:48,717 --> 01:29:50,708 It became about anarchy. 1417 01:29:50,927 --> 01:29:54,465 We are artists and we're trying to reflect what's going on in the world. 1418 01:29:54,681 --> 01:29:57,548 That's what all art does. It's a mirror. 1419 01:29:57,976 --> 01:30:02,061 While DC's rogues' gallery of villains is already enormous... 1420 01:30:02,272 --> 01:30:06,015 ...there's always room for a little more evil. 1421 01:30:06,234 --> 01:30:10,273 With the advent of The New 52, the heroes of the DC universe... 1422 01:30:10,488 --> 01:30:13,105 ...must face new threats and adversaries. 1423 01:30:13,325 --> 01:30:18,195 I have a strange belief about the way one proceeds with comics... 1424 01:30:18,413 --> 01:30:21,872 ...is to using old characters and introducing new characters. 1425 01:30:22,083 --> 01:30:25,621 My belief is if you're gonna use one or two old characters... 1426 01:30:25,837 --> 01:30:27,874 ...you have to introduce a new one. 1427 01:30:28,089 --> 01:30:33,960 I don't think we should ever be so content to keep riding on the same horse. 1428 01:30:34,179 --> 01:30:38,138 If the hero has to survive for 16, 20, 30 years... 1429 01:30:38,350 --> 01:30:41,388 ...you wanna know all the different aspects of that character... 1430 01:30:41,603 --> 01:30:45,471 ...and the villain will make them face certain parts about themselves... 1431 01:30:45,690 --> 01:30:48,102 ...that on their own... 1432 01:30:48,318 --> 01:30:51,982 ...they may not even think about or can come up in a storyline. 1433 01:30:52,197 --> 01:30:55,815 A villain will find that, because they're always trying to find something new... 1434 01:30:56,034 --> 01:30:58,321 ...to use against the hero... 1435 01:30:58,536 --> 01:31:00,948 ...which makes you explore your hero even more. 1436 01:31:01,164 --> 01:31:06,125 The goal of any villain is to challenge our hero, right? 1437 01:31:06,336 --> 01:31:09,169 Not to challenge them but to take them to the ragged edge... 1438 01:31:09,381 --> 01:31:11,418 ...of his existence in every way. 1439 01:31:11,633 --> 01:31:15,001 The idea is to try and think about what the character is most afraid of... 1440 01:31:15,220 --> 01:31:17,837 ...at that particular moment in his or her life, the hero... 1441 01:31:18,056 --> 01:31:20,423 ...then create a villain that comes right at that thing. 1442 01:31:20,642 --> 01:31:23,304 So for "Court of Owls," that story was really about... 1443 01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:26,228 ...you know, a moment when Batman was on top of the world. 1444 01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:29,056 He felt very confident in Gotham and it made me realize... 1445 01:31:29,275 --> 01:31:33,018 ...Batman might think he knows the city but he can't know the history of the city. 1446 01:31:33,238 --> 01:31:37,573 He can't know everything about it. So what if the city itself begins to come at him saying: 1447 01:31:37,784 --> 01:31:40,401 "You don't know me that well." With the Court of Owls... 1448 01:31:40,620 --> 01:31:45,330 ...they're this group buried and layered into the past of the city in ways that are scary to him. 1449 01:31:45,542 --> 01:31:47,203 He doesn't believe they exist at all. 1450 01:31:47,419 --> 01:31:50,252 Then he sees that they actually have nests for their Talons... 1451 01:31:50,463 --> 01:31:53,546 ...inside Wayne buildings and then in the penultimate scene... 1452 01:31:53,758 --> 01:31:56,045 ...he realizes that the person behind the story... 1453 01:31:56,261 --> 01:31:58,798 ...is actually someone who claims to be a Wayne himself. 1454 01:31:59,014 --> 01:32:02,473 The Guardians of the Universe were characters that they're ancient beings... 1455 01:32:02,684 --> 01:32:05,642 ...that divorced themselves from emotion a long time ago. 1456 01:32:05,854 --> 01:32:07,470 They thought emotion was dangerous. 1457 01:32:07,689 --> 01:32:10,056 They say the law is supposed to be devoid of emotion. 1458 01:32:10,275 --> 01:32:13,734 The First Lantern is the being who got the first ring... 1459 01:32:13,945 --> 01:32:18,360 ...who was there to witness the divorcing of the Guardians and their emotional hearts. 1460 01:32:18,575 --> 01:32:21,442 And he took that emotional power for himself. 1461 01:32:21,661 --> 01:32:23,197 And he had changed who he was... 1462 01:32:23,413 --> 01:32:26,531 ...and the Guardians locked him away like they did their emotions. 1463 01:32:26,750 --> 01:32:31,745 The First Lantern is a metaphor for all the pent up emotion the Guardians have buried. 1464 01:32:31,963 --> 01:32:34,500 And that First Lantern is now free. 1465 01:32:34,716 --> 01:32:37,834 At one point, the First Lantern says-- As he's got them captured... 1466 01:32:38,053 --> 01:32:41,546 ...he's turned the tables and he says, “I'm gonna change this universe now. 1467 01:32:41,765 --> 01:32:44,757 But before I do, I want you to have your emotions back. 1468 01:32:44,976 --> 01:32:46,466 I want you to feel this." 1469 01:32:46,686 --> 01:32:49,348 The Guardians, for the first time in billions of years... 1470 01:32:49,564 --> 01:32:52,272 ...have their emotions back and they feel shame and fear... 1471 01:32:52,484 --> 01:32:55,977 ...and horror about what they've done and what they've become... 1472 01:32:56,196 --> 01:32:57,652 ...which I really enjoyed. 1473 01:32:57,864 --> 01:33:00,401 And then that's right before Sinestro wipes them out. 1474 01:33:01,993 --> 01:33:05,611 When I got into Aquaman and I was launching Aquaman for The New 52... 1475 01:33:05,830 --> 01:33:08,117 ...my attitude was he wants to be on land. 1476 01:33:08,333 --> 01:33:13,203 So he made a conscious decision in issue one, "My life is on land here." 1477 01:33:13,421 --> 01:33:17,540 And I wanted to have something that was gonna drag him back into the ocean. 1478 01:33:17,759 --> 01:33:23,971 So we created-- Ivan Reis and I created this race of sea creatures... 1479 01:33:24,182 --> 01:33:26,423 ...humanoid sea creatures, man-eating creatures... 1480 01:33:26,643 --> 01:33:30,307 ...that were starving and from the trench and they had eaten all their food... 1481 01:33:30,522 --> 01:33:31,728 ...and they were coming up. 1482 01:33:31,940 --> 01:33:34,227 They come up out of the ocean and attack a town... 1483 01:33:34,442 --> 01:33:36,900 ...and Aquaman gets involved with that attack... 1484 01:33:37,112 --> 01:33:38,773 ...and has to go back into the water. 1485 01:33:38,988 --> 01:33:41,776 What Aquaman doesn't know is they're actually another kingdom. 1486 01:33:41,991 --> 01:33:46,906 They're actually another underwater kingdom that is one of many, with Atlantis. 1487 01:33:47,205 --> 01:33:49,742 Although it was spawned from comics... 1488 01:33:49,958 --> 01:33:53,246 ...the DC universe isn't limited to panels and pages. 1489 01:33:53,461 --> 01:34:00,379 It has expanded to include all forms of media and given its villains new worlds to explore. 1490 01:34:00,593 --> 01:34:02,675 DC Comics isn't just comics, you know? 1491 01:34:02,887 --> 01:34:05,845 It starts in the comics, all the characters come from the comics. 1492 01:34:06,057 --> 01:34:08,014 But then they explode into everything else. 1493 01:34:08,226 --> 01:34:12,220 If it wasn't for these amazingly rich and complex and multilayered villains... 1494 01:34:12,438 --> 01:34:16,397 ...that we had to craft our stories around and what is driving you through the story... 1495 01:34:16,609 --> 01:34:21,024 ...what is pushing Batman, you know, to push his limits... 1496 01:34:21,239 --> 01:34:24,106 ...to get to the end of the game is ultimately the plan... 1497 01:34:24,325 --> 01:34:27,238 ...and the storytelling around the villain... 1498 01:34:27,453 --> 01:34:31,993 ...and the villains' interactions with each other as they all try to take down Batman. 1499 01:34:32,208 --> 01:34:36,543 You had your shot, Deathstroke, but you're not the only assassin in town. 1500 01:34:37,714 --> 01:34:41,332 There is such rich material here and such deep, amazing characters... 1501 01:34:41,551 --> 01:34:44,964 ...that have such long history and love from the fans... 1502 01:34:45,180 --> 01:34:48,389 ...for 50, 60, 70 years that we wanna tell great stories in our games. 1503 01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:51,092 We don't want it to just be about the gameplay and cool visuals. 1504 01:34:51,311 --> 01:34:53,518 There's gotta be the meat there of a great story. 1505 01:34:53,730 --> 01:34:58,395 To me, it was a lot of fun to see that because it explores the world of these characters... 1506 01:34:58,610 --> 01:35:03,320 ...and it doesn't just give you one flavor month in, month out. 1507 01:35:03,531 --> 01:35:08,116 The future, including the upcoming Forever Evil comic event... 1508 01:35:08,328 --> 01:35:13,073 ...will continue to emphasize the villains and their many diabolical deeds. 1509 01:35:13,291 --> 01:35:19,458 As DC celebrates its villainy, we're doing the first New 52 event series. 1510 01:35:19,672 --> 01:35:22,790 I'm writing it. David Finch is drawing it. It's called Forever Evil. 1511 01:35:23,009 --> 01:35:26,047 And the context of this is the Justice League is dead. 1512 01:35:26,262 --> 01:35:30,096 The villains have inherited the earth. They've been killed by the Crime Syndicate. 1513 01:35:30,308 --> 01:35:35,144 So we create an event that now carries on throughout the rest of 2013 and 2014... 1514 01:35:35,355 --> 01:35:36,937 ...that's all about the villains. 1515 01:35:37,148 --> 01:35:42,484 And when we looked at the whole lineup of characters, it really came down to: 1516 01:35:42,695 --> 01:35:45,187 Why does this character exist in the DC universe? 1517 01:35:45,406 --> 01:35:48,194 What role does this character fill? 1518 01:35:48,409 --> 01:35:52,869 How do we show that function through story, through character development? 1519 01:35:53,081 --> 01:35:57,200 Seeing all the villains manifest themselves in animation... 1520 01:35:57,418 --> 01:36:02,834 ...and television and film and videogames from the comic books, that's... 1521 01:36:03,049 --> 01:36:07,213 I mean, that's the true power and testament to the characters themselves. 1522 01:36:07,428 --> 01:36:10,466 The supervillains of DC Comics... 1523 01:36:10,682 --> 01:36:15,051 ...come in all manners of shapes, sizes, personalities... 1524 01:36:15,270 --> 01:36:19,605 ...dark recesses and eccentricities. 1525 01:36:19,816 --> 01:36:24,310 They conquer worlds, eradicate cities and terrorize the innocent... 1526 01:36:24,529 --> 01:36:27,317 ...all while fighting the hero. 1527 01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:32,277 And it's this bond between villain and hero that is inseverabie... 1528 01:36:32,495 --> 01:36:36,955 "unbreakable, a fusion of soul, a sense of feeling... 1529 01:36:37,166 --> 01:36:41,330 ...a deeply rooted connection that cannot be extricated. 1530 01:36:41,546 --> 01:36:45,756 Theirs is a war of intellect, of strength... 1531 01:36:45,967 --> 01:36:52,930 ...of darkness and intertwined fate and destiny to keep doing battle. 1532 01:36:53,933 --> 01:36:57,267 They can't give up on each other. 1533 01:36:57,478 --> 01:37:00,470 Without the hero, there is no villain. 1534 01:37:00,690 --> 01:37:04,684 Without a villain, there can be no hero. 150610

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