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Evil has many faces.
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A man who laughs.
3
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The master of Metropolis.
4
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The Guardian of fear.
5
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A conqueror of worlds.
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Many faces, but just one name:
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The superviilain.
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Powerful, charismatic...
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...intelligent, ruthless.
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The superviilain reflects our fears
and frustrations...
11
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...the dangers and perils of everyday life.
12
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They commit the heinous crimes we will not.
13
00:00:56,265 --> 00:00:59,758
And in a world where right and wrong
are not absolute...
14
00:00:59,977 --> 00:01:04,312
...where shades of gray exist in life
as well as the comic page...
15
00:01:04,523 --> 00:01:09,142
...evil isn't just unavoidable, it's necessary.
16
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In the world of comics, one could argue
that the villain is even more vital to the story...
17
00:01:25,502 --> 00:01:28,164
...than the just and moral hero.
18
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For without a proper adversary...
19
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...we tack the very essence of story:
20
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Conflict.
21
00:01:37,097 --> 00:01:42,683
After all, isn't it the villain
who catapults the hero into action?
22
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Without the villain, there's really no story.
The superhero exists and does nothing.
23
00:01:48,567 --> 00:01:52,526
If the villain isn't acting out,
Superman stays Clark Kent.
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The superheroes are always reacting.
The villains are making things happen.
25
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Villains are the ones with a plan. The villains
are the ones who are taking the initiative.
26
00:02:02,289 --> 00:02:07,409
If you define "protagonist" as somebody
who sets something in motion...
27
00:02:07,628 --> 00:02:09,869
...and "antagonist" as somebody
who stops him...
28
00:02:10,088 --> 00:02:14,798
...almost all the villains in comic books
are protagonists.
29
00:02:15,010 --> 00:02:19,846
You need that ongoing impetus of the bad guy,
the one who's gonna be a challenge...
30
00:02:20,057 --> 00:02:23,140
...the one who is going
to threaten society's rules...
31
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...and be put in their place by somebody
who upholds those rules.
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Not only is there no story
or conflict without the villain...
33
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...but it's through the villain
that we see our hero at their very core.
34
00:02:48,502 --> 00:02:52,245
We see their many flaws,
we see their many weaknesses.
35
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We see what makes them the hero they are.
36
00:02:56,176 --> 00:03:01,171
Without the villain to define the hero...
37
00:03:01,390 --> 00:03:02,880
...you don't have a hero.
38
00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:08,595
You have no anvil from which the superhero
is pounded into the shape that he is.
39
00:03:08,814 --> 00:03:10,600
Villains in comic book stories...
40
00:03:10,816 --> 00:03:16,437
...allow the hero or the superhero
to really flex their muscles.
41
00:03:16,655 --> 00:03:19,522
The more power the supervillains have...
42
00:03:19,741 --> 00:03:24,030
...the more you can showcase
how important that superhero is.
43
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The stronger your villains are, the stronger
your hero is. They have to overcome...
44
00:03:29,543 --> 00:03:31,375
...somebody who's smart, powerful...
45
00:03:32,337 --> 00:03:35,921
...who knows what they want and who's on
a mission that they believe in.
46
00:03:36,133 --> 00:03:40,422
So if the hero can stop them, you know,
it makes them that much better.
47
00:03:41,304 --> 00:03:45,764
All the more true in the DC universe
because we have rich villains.
48
00:03:45,976 --> 00:03:50,721
One is Flash and Reverse-Flash.
The very names give you what they are.
49
00:03:50,939 --> 00:03:53,601
Reverse-Flash suffered something
so horrible.
50
00:03:54,401 --> 00:03:59,692
And he felt like the Flash could have fixed it.
He knew that the Flash could go through time.
51
00:03:59,906 --> 00:04:01,112
He'd seen it happen before.
52
00:04:01,324 --> 00:04:04,817
He said, "Why don't you go back,
prevent this from happening? Why won't you?"
53
00:04:05,036 --> 00:04:06,618
The guy won't do it.
54
00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:11,870
"Well, he won't do it
because he hasn't felt tragedy like I have.
55
00:04:12,085 --> 00:04:17,000
So I'm going to have him feel tragedy
to make him a better hero.
56
00:04:17,674 --> 00:04:21,884
You need to be able to take the measures
to protect everyone you love.
57
00:04:22,095 --> 00:04:26,089
You wouldn't do it for me. Maybe you'll do it
for yourself. So I put you to the test."
58
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,762
The Riddler,
he's all about Batman's intellect.
59
00:04:28,977 --> 00:04:31,844
He, to me, is the sword-sharpener.
He's the guy that says:
60
00:04:32,063 --> 00:04:35,977
"if you are not clever enough,
everybody dies in that way."
61
00:04:36,193 --> 00:04:39,402
He shows in some ways
that Batman, at his roots...
62
00:04:39,613 --> 00:04:41,354
...needs to be the greatest detective.
63
00:04:41,573 --> 00:04:46,033
At his heart, he's born in Detective Comics. At
the core of the character is Sherlock Holmes.
64
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He's that guy that, because he's human,
needs to be smarter than anybody else...
65
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...to solve these crimes.
66
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For me, the Riddler steps on to the stage
and challenges that fundamental element...
67
00:04:56,421 --> 00:05:00,039
...of Batman's capabilities that needs
to be there almost more than any other.
68
00:05:00,258 --> 00:05:04,047
I mean, that's Batman's superpower.
He's the greatest detective of all time.
69
00:05:06,223 --> 00:05:09,932
The relationship between a villain
and their rival is more complicated...
70
00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:14,762
...than a question of right versus wrong,
good versus evil.
71
00:05:14,981 --> 00:05:19,225
Together, they form a dynamic that is, at times,
interdependent.
72
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A villain cannot exist without a hero
and a hero, his or her villain.
73
00:05:26,284 --> 00:05:31,575
They're in a symbiotic relationship
in that if the villains were to do off the hero...
74
00:05:31,790 --> 00:05:35,454
...I think they would probably
find themselves a little listless.
75
00:05:35,669 --> 00:05:37,831
When we did "Death of the Family" story...
76
00:05:38,046 --> 00:05:41,835
...he comes at Batman saying,
“Deep down, we really love each other."
77
00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:45,793
And, of course, Batman says, "I hate nothing
more on the earth than you, Joker."
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00:05:46,012 --> 00:05:50,472
The Joker feels that the family that Batman
has built around him all these years...
79
00:05:50,684 --> 00:05:51,890
...is dragging him down.
80
00:05:52,102 --> 00:05:54,639
He says,
“These people are draining your soul.
81
00:05:54,855 --> 00:05:57,768
These other members,
they're sucking the life out of you.
82
00:05:57,983 --> 00:06:01,942
I'm your friend. I wanna make you
be the best that you can be...
83
00:06:02,153 --> 00:06:05,987
...so that we can both have a relationship
that we could enjoy for so many years...
84
00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:09,442
...without these knuckleheads
on the side constantly draining you.
85
00:06:09,661 --> 00:06:14,747
And so I'm gonna take care of them for you,
and I will wipe out all these family members...
86
00:06:14,958 --> 00:06:17,199
...so you can be free of their encumbrance."
87
00:06:17,419 --> 00:06:20,332
What the Joker, at his core, is saying
is that:
88
00:06:20,547 --> 00:06:23,084
"You might not love us
the way that we love you...
89
00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:26,292
...or you might not want to admit you love us
the way we love you.
90
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This rogues' gallery that you have,"
he's like,"All of us love you.
91
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All of us are here only to make you
a better superhero."
92
00:06:33,351 --> 00:06:36,685
The question always becomes:
What came first, the hero or the villain?
93
00:06:36,897 --> 00:06:39,810
Did the hero introduce himself to society
to do better good...
94
00:06:40,025 --> 00:06:41,936
...and because they put on that costume...
95
00:06:42,152 --> 00:06:45,144
...the costumed villain arose
to confront him or to challenge him?
96
00:06:45,363 --> 00:06:47,695
Or did the costumed villain arrive first...
97
00:06:47,908 --> 00:06:52,698
...and the hero was created in order to stop
that type of villain from succeeding...
98
00:06:52,913 --> 00:06:54,403
...or getting more powerful?
99
00:06:54,623 --> 00:06:56,785
There are threats
that Superman has to face...
100
00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,913
...where I would tend to think
we're grateful Superman is there.
101
00:07:00,128 --> 00:07:04,372
People might say, "if Superman weren't here,
would these menaces be coming to Earth?"
102
00:07:04,591 --> 00:07:10,633
Bane comes to Gotham
specifically to fight Batman.
103
00:07:10,847 --> 00:07:13,009
This is the Riddler
as he originally appeared.
104
00:07:13,642 --> 00:07:18,227
First moved to Gotham because
he was attracted by the challenge of Batman.
105
00:07:18,438 --> 00:07:21,305
They both came there to challenge Batman...
106
00:07:21,524 --> 00:07:26,644
...to see if he could be a foe worthy of them,
give them something interesting to do.
107
00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:29,863
So the question is which came first?
108
00:07:30,075 --> 00:07:32,908
And I'm not sure
if I really wanna answer that question.
109
00:07:33,703 --> 00:07:36,570
The one thing I can say,
one can't exist without the other.
110
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As long as we have villains,
there will be heroes.
111
00:07:39,250 --> 00:07:41,742
And as long as we have heroes,
there will be villains.
112
00:07:43,421 --> 00:07:47,130
But what is it about the villain
that keeps us so entranced...
113
00:07:47,342 --> 00:07:50,175
...that captivates and enthralls us?
114
00:07:50,762 --> 00:07:55,256
What makes us applaud the very person
we want to see vanquished?
115
00:07:55,475 --> 00:08:01,061
The reasons are often as multifaceted
as the villains we enjoy.
116
00:08:01,272 --> 00:08:04,390
What makes a great superviilain
is something that we can relate to.
117
00:08:04,609 --> 00:08:07,192
It's the same thing
that makes for a great superhero.
118
00:08:07,404 --> 00:08:13,741
In the superhero we have this exaggeration
of what our hopes and desires are.
119
00:08:13,952 --> 00:08:17,035
At the same time
the villain has aspects of us...
120
00:08:17,247 --> 00:08:22,083
...that challenge the strengths
that we're admiring in the superhero.
121
00:08:22,293 --> 00:08:25,126
I would like to think that most people
identify with the hero, heh.
122
00:08:25,338 --> 00:08:28,956
But in this day and age there might be
some who identify with the villain.
123
00:08:29,175 --> 00:08:35,512
I understand getting a gun that shoots ice
and going into a bank and trying to rob it.
124
00:08:35,724 --> 00:08:38,216
We understand temptation.
125
00:08:38,435 --> 00:08:44,306
The oldest stories ever told
have to do with temptation...
126
00:08:44,524 --> 00:08:48,267
...whether it's Pandora or Adam and Eve.
127
00:08:48,486 --> 00:08:54,152
This very basic quality in human beings
that runs with us throughout our lives.
128
00:08:54,367 --> 00:08:56,358
Now, there are villains
like the Joker or Black Hand...
129
00:08:56,578 --> 00:08:58,410
...that are so twisted and dark...
130
00:08:58,621 --> 00:09:01,955
...you love seeing them do their stuff,
but you don't relate to them.
131
00:09:02,167 --> 00:09:04,078
At least, you don't admit you do.
132
00:09:04,294 --> 00:09:09,004
Everyone wishes that they could turn invisible
or fly or have x-ray vision.
133
00:09:09,215 --> 00:09:14,335
And I think what's cool about villains
is everyone wishes that they could break bad.
134
00:09:14,554 --> 00:09:19,720
What's the point of having a villain who can't
act out aspects of ourselves that we repress?
135
00:09:19,934 --> 00:09:22,471
I can be evil. I'm gonna give you
my husband's number...
136
00:09:22,687 --> 00:09:25,600
...and you can have a long chat with him.
Heh, heh, heh.
137
00:09:25,815 --> 00:09:31,231
I think there are some people who really
associate themselves with, like, a Superman.
138
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,070
On the other hand,
people covet Lex Luthor's keen intellect.
139
00:09:37,285 --> 00:09:40,573
When I was growing up
I loved the character of Vandal Savage.
140
00:09:40,789 --> 00:09:43,656
DC had relaunched The Flash
with Wally West as the Flash...
141
00:09:43,875 --> 00:09:48,335
...after Crisis on Infinite Earths and his first
villain that he fought was Vandal Savage.
142
00:09:48,546 --> 00:09:51,083
He was immortal.
And who wouldn't want to be immortal?
143
00:09:51,299 --> 00:09:54,257
And who wouldn't want to have
this far reach into history?
144
00:09:54,469 --> 00:09:59,134
He's one of those villains that has nothing
to lose. That's a very dangerous man.
145
00:09:59,349 --> 00:10:02,091
You know,
he just knows he will be resurrected.
146
00:10:02,310 --> 00:10:04,142
How do you defeat that person?
147
00:10:04,354 --> 00:10:07,437
You look good. Been working out?
148
00:10:07,982 --> 00:10:10,269
You could probably use a little sun.
149
00:10:11,152 --> 00:10:14,270
Then again, who am I to talk?
150
00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:19,233
They seem to be happy. Heh.
They seem to enjoy being bad.
151
00:10:19,452 --> 00:10:21,534
Most of the heroes, especially of late...
152
00:10:21,746 --> 00:10:25,080
...they're all broody and sad.
They never seem to be enjoying anything.
153
00:10:25,291 --> 00:10:28,249
You look at villains
and they're having the time of their lives.
154
00:10:30,505 --> 00:10:34,749
Harley became popular
because, in part, she's funny.
155
00:10:34,968 --> 00:10:39,337
She can stand up to the Joker.
She can tell a joke. She can get a laugh.
156
00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:44,266
When I go to conventions
and I see young ladies cosplaying as her...
157
00:10:44,477 --> 00:10:49,392
...I think they just tap into that feeling of fun
and that she can just be kind of whimsical.
158
00:10:49,607 --> 00:10:52,099
Harley Quinn is one of those characters
you love.
159
00:10:52,318 --> 00:10:55,026
Even if she's smashing somebody
with a hammer, you love her.
160
00:10:55,238 --> 00:10:57,605
There's a handful of those villains,
like Larfleeze...
161
00:10:57,824 --> 00:10:59,861
...the Orange Lantern.
He's deadly but he's fun.
162
00:11:00,076 --> 00:11:03,910
He's overwhelmed with greed and he'll kill
for it. He's still funny because of that.
163
00:11:04,122 --> 00:11:07,240
He comes to Earth and finds out
there's a being called Santa Claus...
164
00:11:07,458 --> 00:11:09,790
...who gives people things that you list.
165
00:11:10,003 --> 00:11:12,791
When Larfleeze finds out
there's a being called Santa Claus...
166
00:11:13,006 --> 00:11:15,668
...that answers your Christmas list,
he makes a giant list.
167
00:11:15,884 --> 00:11:18,501
When Santa doesn't show up,
he gets pissed off and says:
168
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,462
"I'm gonna kill him."
And he goes on a hunt for Santa Claus.
169
00:11:21,681 --> 00:11:24,719
There's very few characters
that you can pull that story off with.
170
00:11:24,934 --> 00:11:27,096
Larfleeze is one of those characters.
171
00:11:27,937 --> 00:11:32,431
But while villains can be fun,
as well as fascinating...
172
00:11:32,650 --> 00:11:37,144
...they're also a direct reflection
of our own fears.
173
00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:41,364
They force us to examine
the deep and personal terrors...
174
00:11:41,576 --> 00:11:46,070
...that we are unable to face
in our everyday lives.
175
00:11:46,289 --> 00:11:49,327
When writers create supervillains...
176
00:11:49,542 --> 00:11:52,660
...when children imagine monsters...
177
00:11:53,296 --> 00:11:56,880
...they're trying to make sense
of a scary world.
178
00:11:57,091 --> 00:11:59,924
They're trying to feel strong.
179
00:12:00,136 --> 00:12:02,093
They're trying to do so many things.
180
00:12:02,305 --> 00:12:06,515
Villains in some ways, you know,
should reflect our fears and our concerns...
181
00:12:06,726 --> 00:12:10,344
...you know, both as individuals
and as a society.
182
00:12:10,563 --> 00:12:11,724
They change over time.
183
00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:15,683
But the more important thing the villains
present is our more global fear...
184
00:12:15,902 --> 00:12:19,987
...our more human fear, our fear of loss...
185
00:12:20,198 --> 00:12:23,031
...our fear of death, our fear of the unknown.
186
00:12:23,243 --> 00:12:29,865
The villain represents basically
everything that we fear...
187
00:12:30,083 --> 00:12:32,495
...or everything that we need
to fight against.
188
00:12:34,462 --> 00:12:39,878
Parallax is interesting because the idea that
it's a world-eater, that scares the hell out of us.
189
00:12:40,093 --> 00:12:42,835
At any moment
some universal malevolence...
190
00:12:43,054 --> 00:12:46,592
...can come and take us over.
That's a pretty scary thing.
191
00:12:48,309 --> 00:12:51,267
By the time they were doing
the Superman show, I was an adult.
192
00:12:51,479 --> 00:12:54,517
But whenever you'd watch
those Darkseid episodes, I'd be like:
193
00:12:54,732 --> 00:12:58,100
"Oh, God, this is gonna be bad."
You know...
194
00:12:58,319 --> 00:13:00,060
...anybody who can make Superman bleed...
195
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,022
...is somebody that you don't wanna
be trifled with.
196
00:13:03,241 --> 00:13:06,279
Because what are any of us
really gonna do against him?
197
00:13:10,164 --> 00:13:13,998
I really made Sinestro
and the Sinestro Corps embody fear.
198
00:13:14,210 --> 00:13:15,792
They're cosmic terrorists.
199
00:13:16,004 --> 00:13:18,541
Their mission when they come
is to destroy Coast City.
200
00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:21,123
"We're gonna make Green Lantern's
town a crater...
201
00:13:21,342 --> 00:13:25,176
...and a symbol of fear,
so that nobody will ever come back here."
202
00:13:25,388 --> 00:13:29,677
Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps says,
"We're not afraid. We're gonna fight your fear."
203
00:13:29,892 --> 00:13:34,136
Hal flies to his brother's house and his brother
is there with his wife and his kids.
204
00:13:34,355 --> 00:13:37,473
Hal Jordan says to his brother,
"You have to leave right now."
205
00:13:37,692 --> 00:13:40,559
His brother says,
“We're not going anywhere. We believe in you.
206
00:13:40,778 --> 00:13:42,815
We're not afraid.
We're standing our ground."
207
00:13:43,031 --> 00:13:46,023
And suddenly another Green Lantern says,
"Hal, look outside."
208
00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:48,904
And someone's put a green light
in their window...
209
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,703
...and another person puts a green light
in their window.
210
00:13:51,914 --> 00:13:54,781
And suddenly there's green lights
all throughout the city...
211
00:13:55,001 --> 00:13:57,038
...as a symbolic gesture to Hal.
212
00:13:57,253 --> 00:14:03,044
And for me, that was a recharge moment
for Hal Jordan overcoming fear...
213
00:14:03,259 --> 00:14:08,220
...but it was also a moment, emotionally,
for me saying, like:
214
00:14:08,431 --> 00:14:11,219
"This is how we deal with fear.
We take a stand."
215
00:14:11,434 --> 00:14:12,674
They're our personal demons.
216
00:14:12,894 --> 00:14:15,135
Like, they're the fears we have
about ourselves...
217
00:14:15,355 --> 00:14:18,438
...come to life
in these incredibly colorful and bright...
218
00:14:18,649 --> 00:14:21,562
...and sometimes funny,
sometimes terrifying ways.
219
00:14:21,778 --> 00:14:25,521
All of us face those things in our lives,
where you face adversity in some way...
220
00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:28,823
...where you're positive
you're not gonna make it through this one.
221
00:14:29,035 --> 00:14:33,154
And I think we've all been there at some point
where you're just thinking to yourself:
222
00:14:33,373 --> 00:14:35,159
"I am not capable of overcoming this."
223
00:14:35,375 --> 00:14:38,117
Whether it's a small day-to-day thing
or it's a big thing.
224
00:14:38,336 --> 00:14:41,749
And what villains do is they represent
those fears on this macro way...
225
00:14:41,964 --> 00:14:45,832
...I think, for the hero, who's the
representative of all the things we think--
226
00:14:46,052 --> 00:14:50,137
We hope that humanity is capable
of or we're capable of at our best.
227
00:14:50,348 --> 00:14:53,761
Then when the hero overcomes those things
at the end because they have to...
228
00:14:53,976 --> 00:14:56,343
...it says to us that we can too.
229
00:15:07,824 --> 00:15:10,191
Every myth has a creation.
230
00:15:10,410 --> 00:15:14,950
Just like our heroes,
every villain must have an origin.
231
00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:19,784
And what qualities do we see
in the most popular villains?
232
00:15:20,002 --> 00:15:23,745
Instilling a sense of fear simply isn't enough.
233
00:15:23,965 --> 00:15:27,833
Villains must be layered, nuanced.
234
00:15:28,052 --> 00:15:33,923
We must ask ourselves:
What makes a bad guy, a bad guy?
235
00:15:34,642 --> 00:15:38,931
You wanna give your villain idiosyncrasies,
and you want to make him strangely weird...
236
00:15:39,147 --> 00:15:42,265
...and interesting psychologically.
237
00:15:42,483 --> 00:15:46,522
Those kind of characters lend themselves
to having stories told about them...
238
00:15:46,737 --> 00:15:49,479
...because their bones are so strong.
239
00:15:49,699 --> 00:15:51,656
You can put, you know...
240
00:15:51,868 --> 00:15:53,529
You can hang a lot of meat on them.
241
00:15:53,744 --> 00:15:57,453
They have their own path
and they all have their own story.
242
00:15:57,665 --> 00:16:02,580
And, you know,
while their powers may be similar...
243
00:16:02,795 --> 00:16:05,833
...hopefully their personalities are not.
244
00:16:06,048 --> 00:16:10,838
If a villain is great-looking
or is great just visually...
245
00:16:11,053 --> 00:16:12,919
...but doesn't have a back-story...
246
00:16:13,139 --> 00:16:18,305
...it really takes away
from enjoying its run.
247
00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:21,056
The wonderful thing
about Batman: The Animated Series...
248
00:16:21,272 --> 00:16:24,014
...is that they not only featured...
249
00:16:24,233 --> 00:16:28,852
...and celebrated a number
of DC villains in Gotham City...
250
00:16:29,071 --> 00:16:31,312
...but introduced a number of origin stories.
251
00:16:31,908 --> 00:16:34,240
Of course, we have this back-story
of Harvey Dent...
252
00:16:34,452 --> 00:16:37,035
...and his struggles with his anger.
253
00:16:37,246 --> 00:16:40,830
We even get to see this session
he has with a psychiatrist.
254
00:16:41,042 --> 00:16:45,661
And the psychiatrist puts him
into this state of hypnotism...
255
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,124
...and asks him to draw up his alter ego.
256
00:16:50,343 --> 00:16:53,176
He calls it Big Bad Harvey.
257
00:16:53,387 --> 00:16:59,633
Later in the episode, of course, we see
his full development into Two-Face.
258
00:16:59,852 --> 00:17:01,843
And I'll never forget that moment...
259
00:17:02,063 --> 00:17:05,931
...where he breaks open the door
out of his hospital room.
260
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:08,767
He then turns at the same time
that there's lightning...
261
00:17:08,986 --> 00:17:14,447
...and we see the image
of the second half of his face.
262
00:17:19,997 --> 00:17:22,455
Black Hand really came into his own...
263
00:17:22,667 --> 00:17:28,629
...in Green Lantern 43
when his origin was revealed.
264
00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:31,627
Taking a character like Black Hand
who was a minor villain...
265
00:17:31,842 --> 00:17:35,130
...and looking at him and saying,
"if we have an emotional spectrum..-...
266
00:17:35,346 --> 00:17:37,257
...and all the colors represent life...
267
00:17:38,057 --> 00:17:41,470
...the absence of color has to represent death.
There's got to be black."
268
00:17:41,686 --> 00:17:44,929
Black Hand, by becoming the avatar of death,
having a black ring...
269
00:17:45,147 --> 00:17:48,390
...committing suicide to become
a zombified Black Lantern...
270
00:17:48,609 --> 00:17:52,022
...which is one of the best moments
Doug Mahnke's ever drawn in his life.
271
00:17:52,238 --> 00:17:53,820
It's creepy, twisted, dark.
272
00:17:54,031 --> 00:17:58,025
Once people actually got to get inside
his head a little bit and see who he was...
273
00:17:58,244 --> 00:18:00,827
...then it became much more
of a connection.
274
00:18:01,789 --> 00:18:04,827
A hero's motive is usually straightforward:
275
00:18:05,042 --> 00:18:09,286
Save the day, serve justice, defeat evil.
276
00:18:09,505 --> 00:18:12,918
Villains, however,
are driven by a variety of forces.
277
00:18:13,134 --> 00:18:16,843
It could be as grandiose
as taking over the world...
278
00:18:17,054 --> 00:18:20,968
...or as direct as
forcing others to share their agony.
279
00:18:21,183 --> 00:18:27,555
They can be much more complex, personal
and often even relatable.
280
00:18:27,773 --> 00:18:33,485
What makes a villain the most memorable is
the reason they're doing whatever it is they do.
281
00:18:33,696 --> 00:18:36,313
It's not the crime.
We've seen a hundred thousand crimes.
282
00:18:36,532 --> 00:18:38,773
We've seen Luthor break into banks.
283
00:18:38,993 --> 00:18:41,860
We've seen all these characters
do weird things.
284
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,036
But why they do it.
285
00:18:44,248 --> 00:18:48,617
Every one of us is driven by, you know,
our own singular, you know, needs and wants.
286
00:18:48,836 --> 00:18:49,871
So are villains.
287
00:18:53,758 --> 00:18:58,127
A character like the Anti-Monitor
from Crisis on Infinite Earths...
288
00:18:58,346 --> 00:19:01,179
...needs to absorb all the universes.
289
00:19:01,390 --> 00:19:03,427
And that's the only way he could survive.
290
00:19:03,643 --> 00:19:07,102
Behold the definition of true power.
291
00:19:07,313 --> 00:19:10,351
He's not doing it
because he cares at all about life.
292
00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:14,605
And that makes him frightening
because you can't reason with him.
293
00:19:14,820 --> 00:19:18,563
He's not an intellect
that you can talk to and say:
294
00:19:18,783 --> 00:19:21,024
"Don't you realize
you're doing something bad?
295
00:19:21,243 --> 00:19:25,202
Can't we figure out something else to do?"
He's not interested. He has one need.
296
00:19:25,414 --> 00:19:30,204
When I created Clayface III at the behest
of the late Julius Schwartz...
297
00:19:30,419 --> 00:19:34,003
...I came up with a character
who was a monster...
298
00:19:34,215 --> 00:19:36,126
...because he had screwed up.
299
00:19:36,342 --> 00:19:40,085
He was someone born with acromegaly,
essentially the elephant man disease.
300
00:19:40,304 --> 00:19:43,092
And in trying to fix himself...
301
00:19:43,307 --> 00:19:49,724
...became somebody who basically
can draw the calcium out of your body...
302
00:19:49,939 --> 00:19:53,022
...and reduce people
to little clay-like masses.
303
00:19:53,234 --> 00:19:56,352
But he didn't want to.
It's just how he survived.
304
00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:59,358
There may also be, certainly,
revenge involved.
305
00:19:59,573 --> 00:20:03,111
A lot of villains feel that they've been wronged
in some way...
306
00:20:03,327 --> 00:20:06,490
...whether it's by society
or a loved one or the police.
307
00:20:08,249 --> 00:20:12,834
With Mr. Freeze, when we developed the
character for Batman: The Animated Series...
308
00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:16,504
...I thought, "Somebody that cold
has to be that cold for a reason."
309
00:20:16,716 --> 00:20:21,961
Essentially he had some funding to carry out
his research to cure his wife, Nora.
310
00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:24,136
And the man who pulled that funding...
311
00:20:24,348 --> 00:20:29,058
...he then became the focus
of Mr. Freeze's evil-doing.
312
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:34,106
His mission is to go after the one man
who took away the love of his life.
313
00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,728
He actually says to Batman:
314
00:20:36,944 --> 00:20:43,111
"This is my sole purpose,
and if you get in the way, you'll pay for it."
315
00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:46,693
Which kind of implies,
“Look, if you just step aside, I won't harm you."
316
00:20:50,166 --> 00:20:52,828
As a villain, you can argue
whether he's a villain or not.
317
00:20:53,043 --> 00:20:59,540
Atrocitus, he was motivated
by anger at the Guardians of the Universe.
318
00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:03,502
His family got killed
because the Guardians of the Universe...
319
00:21:03,721 --> 00:21:06,759
...they created these manhunters, androids...
320
00:21:06,974 --> 00:21:09,716
...which were their predecessors
to the Green Lantern Corps.
321
00:21:09,935 --> 00:21:15,476
Atrocitus skips over
the denial stage of grief...
322
00:21:15,691 --> 00:21:18,809
...goes into anger and stays there.
Forget going into the later ones.
323
00:21:19,028 --> 00:21:21,690
The only bargain he makes is to stay angry...
324
00:21:21,906 --> 00:21:27,492
...and avenge his family
by going after the Guardians however he can.
325
00:21:27,953 --> 00:21:34,620
That's why the Joker is so interesting,
because he sort of doesn't have a motive.
326
00:21:35,211 --> 00:21:36,451
He knows he's crazy.
327
00:21:36,670 --> 00:21:40,755
Most of the crazy villains, most of the villains
who in comics, who are insane...
328
00:21:40,966 --> 00:21:42,752
...have no idea they are.
329
00:21:42,968 --> 00:21:45,676
But the Joker is aware of it and he loves it.
330
00:21:45,888 --> 00:21:49,756
He loves the concept that he is chaos
to Batman's logic and order.
331
00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:53,889
And, obviously, we have the most recent
incarnation on the big screen.
332
00:21:54,104 --> 00:21:58,314
Heath Ledger's Joker
is a perfect example of that.
333
00:21:58,526 --> 00:22:02,440
And he even says it.
He's a dog chasing a car.
334
00:22:02,655 --> 00:22:05,818
And when he catches it, he doesn't--
He doesn't know what he's doing.
335
00:22:06,033 --> 00:22:08,525
He just sort of does things.
336
00:22:09,453 --> 00:22:12,445
With Lex Luthor, he just wants power.
337
00:22:12,665 --> 00:22:14,201
But how does he attain it?
338
00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:16,202
How many ways does he have to go?
339
00:22:16,418 --> 00:22:18,705
Why is he jealous of Superman?
340
00:22:18,921 --> 00:22:21,288
Because he wants to be
more powerful than Superman.
341
00:22:21,507 --> 00:22:25,250
Those self-made men
tend to feel that they have license.
342
00:22:25,469 --> 00:22:28,006
Tend to feel that they're superior
to everybody else.
343
00:22:28,222 --> 00:22:33,763
He has these personality characteristics
that one would consider narcissistic...
344
00:22:33,978 --> 00:22:39,314
...in the sense that he has this element
of superiority...
345
00:22:39,525 --> 00:22:43,519
...that he is more powerful than others.
Thinks that he's more intelligent than others.
346
00:22:43,737 --> 00:22:47,901
And, therefore, believes that he deserves
more than what other people deserve.
347
00:22:48,117 --> 00:22:52,657
He is like the pinnacle of humanity.
He has made himself the best man.
348
00:22:52,872 --> 00:22:58,208
And then there's this alien
that's better than him.
349
00:22:58,419 --> 00:23:01,912
I did the revision of Luthor
back in the 1980s.
350
00:23:02,131 --> 00:23:08,423
I turned him into a character
who brought jobs to Metropolis.
351
00:23:08,637 --> 00:23:14,098
He provided museums
and philharmonic orchestras...
352
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:20,647
...and did all this stuff
as long as everyone knew he was the best.
353
00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:26,228
He wanted the power. He wanted the control.
And he was happy.
354
00:23:26,447 --> 00:23:29,235
He was delighted
because everyone honored him.
355
00:23:30,117 --> 00:23:32,905
And then Superman came along,
who could fly.
356
00:23:33,537 --> 00:23:34,572
It was ego.
357
00:23:34,788 --> 00:23:37,200
"I am the person
who looks down on everybody else."
358
00:23:37,416 --> 00:23:40,408
And the first time Superman and he meet,
Superman says:
359
00:23:40,628 --> 00:23:43,620
"I'll be around.
If you wanna find me, just look up."
360
00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:47,958
And suddenly there was somebody who was
over Luthor and he couldn't deal with that.
361
00:23:49,011 --> 00:23:54,222
I think that's also part of the ego
is that villains love to hear themselves talk.
362
00:23:54,433 --> 00:24:00,725
They love to hear their theories
as expounded upon by themselves.
363
00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:03,773
The Penguin made a comment
in one comic book:
364
00:24:03,984 --> 00:24:08,103
"What's the point in committing the perfect
crime if no one knows it was you who did it?"
365
00:24:08,322 --> 00:24:12,737
Lex Luther's brain, as evil as it is, is brilliant.
366
00:24:12,952 --> 00:24:16,161
Once he had him
and he was incapacitated...
367
00:24:16,372 --> 00:24:19,740
...to the degree that Lex could do anything
he wanted with him...
368
00:24:19,959 --> 00:24:24,419
...he could aggrandize himself in front of him.
"Let me tell you how brilliant I am."
369
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:28,919
You were great in your day, Superman,
but it just stands to reason.
370
00:24:29,134 --> 00:24:31,626
When it came time to cash in your chips...
371
00:24:31,845 --> 00:24:37,340
...this old, diseased, maniac,
would be your banker.
372
00:24:40,688 --> 00:24:42,679
Mind over muscle.
373
00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:48,981
The grandiose nature of the villains
figures into every one of those key aspects.
374
00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:52,279
Whatever their mission is in life,
the main thing they want to do.
375
00:24:52,491 --> 00:24:56,200
The one who wants to get the money,
he wants to do it in the outlandish way...
376
00:24:56,412 --> 00:24:57,868
...the creative, different way.
377
00:24:59,081 --> 00:25:02,665
When you think of some of the more
flamboyant villains in the DC Universe...
378
00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:04,662
...you sort of think about:
379
00:25:04,878 --> 00:25:07,210
Would they really be happy
with all the money in the world?
380
00:25:07,423 --> 00:25:09,630
Would they really be happy
with running the city?
381
00:25:09,842 --> 00:25:14,803
You know, it seems to be they're much happier
trying to take the city than actually having it.
382
00:25:15,014 --> 00:25:20,225
That's why you don't see a lot of books
about supervillains now running city hall...
383
00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:22,347
...or "Now I'm the mayor" or, you know...
384
00:25:22,563 --> 00:25:24,975
What are they gonna do with,
you know, a billion dollars?
385
00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:27,852
So I do think it's sort of more the pursuit.
386
00:25:28,068 --> 00:25:31,652
It's not enough for the Riddler to rob a bank
or steal a diamond.
387
00:25:31,864 --> 00:25:36,199
He's got to drop clues on his way
to robbing a bank or stealing a diamond.
388
00:25:36,410 --> 00:25:40,404
The Riddler's probably the most self-defeating
villain in the history of comic books...
389
00:25:40,622 --> 00:25:46,459
...because he's always providing Batman
with a clue to his comeuppance.
390
00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:50,288
He's obviously got some deep, dark...
391
00:25:50,507 --> 00:25:54,216
...damaged psychological reason that,
you know, deep down he wants to be caught.
392
00:25:54,428 --> 00:25:55,509
He wants to be punished.
393
00:25:55,721 --> 00:25:59,339
Otherwise he wouldn't leave ridiculous
riddles to be left for Batman to solve.
394
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,483
The journey toward evil follows a long road...
395
00:26:11,695 --> 00:26:13,777
...with many possible avenues.
396
00:26:13,989 --> 00:26:16,606
But for the fallen, the question remains:
397
00:26:16,825 --> 00:26:22,787
Were they born bad
or did they willingly turn down the dark path?
398
00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:25,911
Is it the end result of a lifetime of suffering...
399
00:26:26,126 --> 00:26:30,962
...or did one horrible incident
forever push them over the edge?
400
00:26:31,173 --> 00:26:35,883
Ls there real evil?
Does evil in itself really exist?
401
00:26:36,095 --> 00:26:40,555
Or it is always a reaction to something?
Is it a reaction to some childhood trauma?
402
00:26:40,766 --> 00:26:46,808
There are a number of different, I guess,
causes or trajectories toward evil-doing...
403
00:26:47,022 --> 00:26:48,979
...or toward a life of villainy.
404
00:26:49,191 --> 00:26:52,479
The best villains probably are born bad.
405
00:26:53,237 --> 00:26:54,568
You want them to be, at least.
406
00:26:54,780 --> 00:27:00,241
There's always, like, maybe they were born bad,
and then you had horrible incidents occur...
407
00:27:00,452 --> 00:27:03,410
...that sort of kept them down that path.
408
00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:10,164
We have yet really to have true examples
of these particular experiences...
409
00:27:10,379 --> 00:27:14,839
...that the Joker, Harvey Dent
and other villains have gone through.
410
00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:20,841
So I think there is a lot of room
for the fictional writing...
411
00:27:21,056 --> 00:27:25,892
...and the fictional exploration
of one event creating--
412
00:27:26,103 --> 00:27:31,724
Completely redefining a person
where it turns them to villains.
413
00:27:34,027 --> 00:27:36,644
I created a character called Man-Bat.
414
00:27:36,864 --> 00:27:39,322
It's this guy who is a Batman fan.
415
00:27:40,367 --> 00:27:42,950
He is a genius. He is a scientist.
416
00:27:43,162 --> 00:27:47,451
Works in museums.
But he's just a little off.
417
00:27:47,666 --> 00:27:51,785
And he thinks
that if he creates a serum out of bats...
418
00:27:52,004 --> 00:27:54,462
...that he can give it as a gift to Batman...
419
00:27:54,673 --> 00:27:59,418
...and Batman will have the attributes
of a bat.
420
00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:00,967
Wouldn't that be great?
421
00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:03,763
But somebody has to test it.
422
00:28:03,974 --> 00:28:06,557
So he tests it on himself.
423
00:28:06,768 --> 00:28:08,509
It's Jekyll and Hyde.
424
00:28:08,729 --> 00:28:11,596
He's turned into this creature.
He becomes a man-bat.
425
00:28:11,815 --> 00:28:14,728
You can say, "Man-Bat is a villain."
No, he's not a villain.
426
00:28:14,943 --> 00:28:18,777
He can be manipulated by villains,
but he's a good guy.
427
00:28:18,989 --> 00:28:20,571
In fact, he loves Batman.
428
00:28:20,782 --> 00:28:23,023
He thinks Batman
is the greatest hero on earth.
429
00:28:23,243 --> 00:28:25,075
And he wants to be like Batman.
430
00:28:25,287 --> 00:28:29,906
But if he's like Batman, he becomes
a drug addict then becomes this monster.
431
00:28:30,125 --> 00:28:32,708
You will bow down before me!
432
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,130
First you, and then one day, your heirs!
433
00:28:37,341 --> 00:28:39,799
General Zod
is a fantastic villain for Superman.
434
00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:45,631
While some of his actions aren't justifiable, you
completely understand why he is the man he is.
435
00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:51,639
You know, someone like the Scarecrow...
436
00:28:51,855 --> 00:28:54,142
...the fact that he was bullied
into submission...
437
00:28:54,358 --> 00:28:57,350
...and picked on
by way more powerful people than him...
438
00:28:57,569 --> 00:29:04,191
...and he was so scared to live his life because
he had this constant air of fear around him.
439
00:29:04,409 --> 00:29:08,368
It drove him to figure out
why that fear existed within him.
440
00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:12,039
And then at the end of the day,
how he could inflict it upon other people.
441
00:29:12,251 --> 00:29:13,662
You're writing it and you see:
442
00:29:13,877 --> 00:29:17,336
"Why can't you just go left
instead of right at this seminal moment?"
443
00:29:17,547 --> 00:29:21,085
That kind of story, I think,
is equally inspiring and exciting to read...
444
00:29:21,301 --> 00:29:27,013
...for different reasons, but because mostly
you see that making the wrong choice...
445
00:29:27,224 --> 00:29:31,092
...or falling victim to sort of difficult
circumstances and letting them turn you...
446
00:29:31,311 --> 00:29:35,555
...and twist you that way is something that
gets you nowhere but Blackgate or Arkham...
447
00:29:35,774 --> 00:29:39,938
...or, you know, the Phantom Zone
or that sort of thing. Heh, heh.
448
00:29:41,613 --> 00:29:43,069
Consider this.
449
00:29:43,282 --> 00:29:49,699
The function and role of the hero and the villain
is all simply a matter of perspective.
450
00:29:49,913 --> 00:29:54,953
If we reversed focus and considered
the story from the point of view of the villain...
451
00:29:55,168 --> 00:29:59,287
...wouldn't they be the hero
and the hero the villain?
452
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,459
You have to think that pretty much
everyone's a hero in their own story.
453
00:30:04,678 --> 00:30:08,171
The villains who are really
interesting characters...
454
00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:11,223
...have an affirmative reason
for what they're doing.
455
00:30:11,435 --> 00:30:13,676
Their strength comes from...
456
00:30:13,895 --> 00:30:19,106
...absolute certainty, 100 percent certainty,
that they are correct.
457
00:30:19,693 --> 00:30:25,154
If they're uncertain about what they're doing,
then they're not interesting characters.
458
00:30:25,365 --> 00:30:30,326
Perspective of ants.
You know, do ants see us as giant villains?
459
00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:34,906
We're walking around. It's ruining my picnic,
so I'm just stomping on ants. I'm not thinking.
460
00:30:35,125 --> 00:30:36,911
To someone's point of view down there...
461
00:30:37,127 --> 00:30:40,995
...we are these giant gods who are villainous
and are destroying their civilization.
462
00:30:41,214 --> 00:30:43,706
So it's really just about your point of view.
463
00:30:46,094 --> 00:30:49,382
Sinestro wanted to control things
so much on Korugar, his home world...
464
00:30:49,598 --> 00:30:54,638
...he wanted it to be safe for everybody that
he started to instill fear like, "I'm in control."
465
00:30:54,853 --> 00:30:59,973
Sinestro is a villain who really did see himself
as a hero and couldn't believe...
466
00:31:00,192 --> 00:31:03,776
...that he was being chopped off at the knees
by the Guardians all the time...
467
00:31:03,987 --> 00:31:07,025
...and being perceived to be someone
who wasn't looking out...
468
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,323
...for the better interest of the universe
and his own people.
469
00:31:10,535 --> 00:31:13,323
And, eventually, it pushed Sinestro
into a dark place...
470
00:31:13,538 --> 00:31:16,246
...where he finally just had
to use his powers...
471
00:31:16,458 --> 00:31:19,041
...to bring to light
what he thought was the best thing.
472
00:31:19,252 --> 00:31:23,496
And Hal Jordan ultimately had to stop
this guy who had gone renegade.
473
00:31:23,715 --> 00:31:25,922
So it just set them on a collision course.
474
00:31:27,052 --> 00:31:29,134
Lex doesn't perceive himself
as a bad person.
475
00:31:29,346 --> 00:31:31,508
He doesn't perceive himself as anything...
476
00:31:31,723 --> 00:31:36,763
...but the agent of order and civilization.
477
00:31:37,813 --> 00:31:41,807
You hold the future of the entire planet
in your hands.
478
00:31:43,026 --> 00:31:46,189
- I'm here to take it back.
- Lex?
479
00:31:47,197 --> 00:31:49,780
You'll never threaten the world again.
480
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:54,614
I think Luthor is correct
in the way he views the world.
481
00:31:54,830 --> 00:31:57,697
He's right. Superman is an alien
and we shouldn't trust him.
482
00:31:57,916 --> 00:31:59,907
He has a lot of people on his side today...
483
00:32:00,127 --> 00:32:02,960
...in that I think in the '50s,
during the Eisenhower years...
484
00:32:03,171 --> 00:32:06,004
...the idea of a superman
with all these incredible powers...
485
00:32:06,216 --> 00:32:11,757
...that we can't stop even if we wanted to, but
he's a benign force for good, that's reassuring.
486
00:32:11,972 --> 00:32:16,011
In today's day and age,
I don't know if that's as reassuring.
487
00:32:16,226 --> 00:32:20,766
So the idea that there's a guy
who is a businessman...
488
00:32:20,981 --> 00:32:24,690
...you know, a tycoon
who's looking out for his fellow humans...
489
00:32:24,901 --> 00:32:28,690
...against a threat that actually
can't be contained or controlled...
490
00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:32,023
...I think it really speaks to
I think a lot of people's fears...
491
00:32:32,242 --> 00:32:34,279
...about authority and power today.
492
00:32:37,998 --> 00:32:39,909
In modern story...
493
00:32:40,125 --> 00:32:41,991
...just as it is in fife...
494
00:32:42,210 --> 00:32:47,626
...the choice between right and wrong
often isn't so cut and dry.
495
00:32:48,175 --> 00:32:52,760
Heroes are flawed,
sometimes villains justified.
496
00:32:52,971 --> 00:32:56,805
But it's the villain
and sometimes society itself...
497
00:32:57,017 --> 00:32:59,884
...that further blurs the line.
498
00:33:00,103 --> 00:33:03,016
The same way there's a thin line
between love and hate, to me...
499
00:33:03,231 --> 00:33:08,067
...the best heroes are the ones
that probably act a little villainous.
500
00:33:08,278 --> 00:33:13,990
And the best villains are the ones
that might have martyr complexes.
501
00:33:14,201 --> 00:33:18,570
Where we are in comics right now, we probably
examine the line between good and evil more...
502
00:33:18,788 --> 00:33:21,530
...than ever had been done before.
503
00:33:21,750 --> 00:33:26,290
Batman is always trying to maintain
that control within himself.
504
00:33:26,505 --> 00:33:29,714
You know,
“This is how my parents were killed.
505
00:33:29,925 --> 00:33:33,543
I'm gonna make sure that
doesn't happen to anybody else."
506
00:33:33,762 --> 00:33:40,225
He is a guy who's fighting
to not become a bad guy.
507
00:33:40,435 --> 00:33:46,056
Had it not been for the humanizing
anchors of his humanity, Alfred...
508
00:33:46,274 --> 00:33:49,483
...and a few other key people
keeping him in line...
509
00:33:49,694 --> 00:33:52,152
...young Bruce Wayne, traumatized...
510
00:33:52,364 --> 00:33:56,779
...by witnessing the murder of his parents
before his eyes...
511
00:33:56,993 --> 00:34:01,362
...could easily
have gone the dark side of that line.
512
00:34:02,541 --> 00:34:04,532
All I've ever wanted to do is kill him.
513
00:34:04,751 --> 00:34:07,584
A day doesn't go by
when I don't think about subjecting him...
514
00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:10,379
...to every horrendous torture
he's dealt out to others.
515
00:34:10,590 --> 00:34:12,877
And then end him.
516
00:34:13,093 --> 00:34:17,758
But if I do that, if I allow myself
to go down into that place...
517
00:34:19,140 --> 00:34:21,472
...I'll never come back.
518
00:34:21,685 --> 00:34:24,723
There's sort of a power struggle
going on with the villains too.
519
00:34:24,938 --> 00:34:28,147
There's the character
that's sort of more of a gray nature...
520
00:34:28,358 --> 00:34:31,146
...who was originally maybe intended
to be a villain...
521
00:34:31,361 --> 00:34:37,027
...who cleaned up his act a little bit or who
is just so engaging that you like him a lot.
522
00:34:37,242 --> 00:34:39,153
You look at a character like Lobo.
523
00:34:39,369 --> 00:34:43,112
Here's this guy who should not be called
a hero by any stretch of the imagination...
524
00:34:43,331 --> 00:34:46,323
...but he's got just enough honor,
I guess you'd say...
525
00:34:46,543 --> 00:34:48,500
...like, you know, he's a bounty hunter.
526
00:34:48,712 --> 00:34:52,125
If he goes after somebody,
for better or for worse, he'll honor the deal.
527
00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:54,502
And he'll track down the guy
and bring him in.
528
00:34:54,718 --> 00:34:58,803
The appeal of Lobo is just the over-the-top
black comedy and violence...
529
00:34:59,014 --> 00:35:00,596
...I think the character brings.
530
00:35:00,807 --> 00:35:02,923
You know, he's a badass biker
from outer space.
531
00:35:03,143 --> 00:35:04,679
Who doesn't love somebody like that?
532
00:35:04,894 --> 00:35:07,511
Deadshot is nice and simple and clear.
533
00:35:07,731 --> 00:35:11,315
He's like a bullet. He goes from point A
to point B and he doesn't waver.
534
00:35:11,526 --> 00:35:14,894
He's got layers to him.
He's not just doing this for the sake of fun.
535
00:35:15,113 --> 00:35:18,947
He's doing it because this is the thing
he's good at. He's good at killing people.
536
00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:20,649
And he only does it for money.
537
00:35:20,869 --> 00:35:25,739
With a character like Deathstroke,
I actually did not create him to be a villain.
538
00:35:25,957 --> 00:35:32,829
I created him thinking he was a character
who was morally ambiguous...
539
00:35:33,048 --> 00:35:35,836
...who was doing certain things
for his own reasons.
540
00:35:36,051 --> 00:35:39,464
He was a hunter, he was a mercenary,
he was an assassin...
541
00:35:39,679 --> 00:35:43,422
...but always on a political, for-hire basis.
542
00:35:43,642 --> 00:35:49,729
And then because his son was trapped by the
H.l.V.E., he was forced into becoming a villain.
543
00:35:49,939 --> 00:35:53,728
He didn't want to be, and no matter
how many times he wants to get out of it...
544
00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:57,481
...he can't because he has a certain
code of ethics...
545
00:35:57,697 --> 00:36:02,112
...that says he promised
to complete his son's mission...
546
00:36:02,327 --> 00:36:06,571
...and he can't stop until he does,
even though he knows it's not his mission...
547
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:08,656
...and even though he knows it's wrong.
548
00:36:09,209 --> 00:36:12,292
Amanda Waller is one of the
greatest characters in DC comics.
549
00:36:12,504 --> 00:36:16,122
She is the black ops government leader
of the Suicide Squad...
550
00:36:16,341 --> 00:36:20,130
...the program that recruits supervillains
and forces them to do missions for them.
551
00:36:20,345 --> 00:36:23,133
And she is manipulative, super smart.
552
00:36:23,348 --> 00:36:27,467
Amanda Waller can only be viewed as a
bad guy because she makes the tough choices.
553
00:36:27,686 --> 00:36:28,721
That's the reason why.
554
00:36:28,937 --> 00:36:34,558
And what she's doing is she is willing
to sacrifice the individual for the greater good.
555
00:36:34,776 --> 00:36:38,440
Amanda Waller continues to be a presence
in the DC universe.
556
00:36:38,655 --> 00:36:41,864
She's created a Justice League
called the Justice League of America...
557
00:36:42,075 --> 00:36:45,443
...that is designed to take out
the real Justice League if need be.
558
00:36:45,662 --> 00:36:48,825
She's prepared for the worst
because she's experienced the worst.
559
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,455
She has a very clear moral line and whether
you agree with it or not, it doesn't shift.
560
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:56,458
That's why you'll have that discussion
going back and forth...
561
00:36:56,673 --> 00:36:58,914
...of whether Amanda Waller
is a hero or villain.
562
00:37:00,385 --> 00:37:03,753
Heroes typically have a strong moral code.
563
00:37:03,972 --> 00:37:05,303
"I Will not kill."
564
00:37:05,515 --> 00:37:07,426
"I will uphold the law."
565
00:37:07,642 --> 00:37:10,009
But just because villains commit crimes...
566
00:37:10,228 --> 00:37:13,186
...does not mean
they are completely without principles.
567
00:37:13,398 --> 00:37:20,145
There does exist honor among thieves,
even if that honor is warped and twisted.
568
00:37:20,363 --> 00:37:22,604
I don't think you can generalize
about villains...
569
00:37:22,824 --> 00:37:26,488
...the same way as you can generalize
about heroes across the board.
570
00:37:26,703 --> 00:37:30,116
You know, I do think that there
are some villains who have a moral code...
571
00:37:30,331 --> 00:37:33,369
...or have a line
that they personally will not cross.
572
00:37:33,585 --> 00:37:38,705
Two-Face, where he basically lets his morality
be decided by a flip of a coin.
573
00:37:38,923 --> 00:37:41,915
Sinestro certainly has a code of ethics
he thinks he's following.
574
00:37:42,135 --> 00:37:44,001
And in a strange way he is following it.
575
00:37:44,220 --> 00:37:47,758
He believes in the Green Lantern Corps
so much he's willing to be a villain to them.
576
00:37:47,974 --> 00:37:49,840
Allow me to introduce myself.
577
00:37:50,059 --> 00:37:53,097
I am he who is called Ra's al Ghul.
578
00:37:53,313 --> 00:37:55,645
Ra's al Ghul knows who Batman is.
579
00:37:55,857 --> 00:37:57,222
He can give it away.
580
00:37:57,442 --> 00:38:01,777
He doesn't because there's sort
of a respect that he has for Batman.
581
00:38:01,988 --> 00:38:05,197
And he has this hope that one day
Batman will come to his side...
582
00:38:05,408 --> 00:38:07,649
...so he doesn't destroy Batman that way.
583
00:38:07,869 --> 00:38:11,737
Specifically, the Rogues, they won't kill
somebody. That's where they draw the line.
584
00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:15,540
They do have their own-- It may be
a warped code, but they have their code.
585
00:38:15,752 --> 00:38:18,915
If you go to the Rogues and say,
“You have a chance to kill the Flash.
586
00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:22,998
Here's the plan. This is how we're gonna
kill the Flash. We're gonna kill the Flash."
587
00:38:23,218 --> 00:38:25,676
Captain Cold would be like,
"You're out of your mind.
588
00:38:25,887 --> 00:38:28,549
If we kill the Flash
the whole Justice League's on top us.
589
00:38:28,765 --> 00:38:30,051
We don't need that right now.
590
00:38:30,266 --> 00:38:33,884
We have this thing going. We don't wanna
kill the Flash. He's just in our way."
591
00:38:34,103 --> 00:38:37,095
There's versions of the Rogues
who have been more bloodthirsty.
592
00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:42,276
Their versions, I don't respond to because
I don't think that's who the Rogues are.
593
00:38:42,487 --> 00:38:44,854
The last thing they would ever do
is kill the Flash.
594
00:38:45,073 --> 00:38:47,360
That doesn't mean
they're uninteresting to watch...
595
00:38:47,575 --> 00:38:50,237
...or uninteresting characters
for the Flash to go against.
596
00:38:50,453 --> 00:38:54,117
That makes them more interesting.
What are their motivations?
597
00:39:03,132 --> 00:39:07,217
The best villains represent
the counterpoint to the hero.
598
00:39:07,428 --> 00:39:09,886
A polar opposite in many respects...
599
00:39:10,098 --> 00:39:15,684
...but also bearing subtle
or sometimes striking similarities.
600
00:39:15,895 --> 00:39:19,854
The villains often mirror
the hero's dark reflection...
601
00:39:20,066 --> 00:39:24,401
...the result of a divergent path,
a different road taken.
602
00:39:24,612 --> 00:39:29,322
I think a good nemesis for a hero
needs to have some of the hero in him...
603
00:39:29,534 --> 00:39:32,276
...have some of the qualities
of a hero in him.
604
00:39:32,495 --> 00:39:36,363
You are defined as much
by the dark side of the mythology...
605
00:39:36,583 --> 00:39:39,325
...as you are defined
by this light side of mythology.
606
00:39:39,544 --> 00:39:43,754
So for every mythology about demons,
there need to be angels and vice versa.
607
00:39:43,965 --> 00:39:47,333
You need to have a degree of polar opposite.
608
00:39:47,552 --> 00:39:49,839
At the same time,
there needs to be those things...
609
00:39:50,054 --> 00:39:52,091
...that make them mirror images
of themselves.
610
00:39:52,307 --> 00:39:55,174
You have Ocean Master
who is kind of a mirror of Aquaman.
611
00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:59,352
He is an Atlantean king, like Aquaman,
but he's Aquaman gone wrong.
612
00:39:59,564 --> 00:40:02,022
He's "What if Aquaman
went down a different path?"
613
00:40:02,233 --> 00:40:04,349
In the case of Flash, it's Reverse-Flash.
614
00:40:04,569 --> 00:40:07,778
Literally, it's a reverse version of the Flash,
a mirror of him.
615
00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:10,026
And then the opposite
would be Captain Cold.
616
00:40:10,241 --> 00:40:12,653
On first blush you're like,
“Oh, it's ice. He slips."
617
00:40:12,869 --> 00:40:15,486
You look at Captain Cold
and you analyze him a bit more.
618
00:40:15,705 --> 00:40:18,788
When introduced, he was called
“The Man Who Mastered Absolute Zero."
619
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,367
And absolute zero
means zero atomic motion.
620
00:40:21,586 --> 00:40:23,827
That means the atoms do not move.
621
00:40:24,047 --> 00:40:27,460
You know, when things are colder,
they're slower on the atomic level.
622
00:40:27,675 --> 00:40:30,633
So that's why Captain Cold, to me,
always captured...
623
00:40:30,845 --> 00:40:33,257
...the essence of an opposite
of the Flash.
624
00:40:33,473 --> 00:40:35,259
When you look at somebody like Batman...
625
00:40:35,475 --> 00:40:38,058
...Catwoman is certainly
the sexual challenge to him.
626
00:40:38,269 --> 00:40:40,385
Riddler is the intellectual challenge.
627
00:40:40,605 --> 00:40:44,064
Penguin is almost a mockery
of what Bruce Wayne is on the social scene.
628
00:40:44,275 --> 00:40:49,236
And the Joker is the horrific version
of what Batman is to ordinary people.
629
00:40:49,447 --> 00:40:53,736
Whereas Batman scares criminals, the Joker
scares and horrifies the ordinary people.
630
00:40:53,952 --> 00:40:58,116
Black Adam is another
good opposite number character.
631
00:40:58,331 --> 00:41:02,996
Kind of got a costume that's similar
to Shazam's costume, but it's black.
632
00:41:03,211 --> 00:41:09,173
He's also another member of a police force
that has kind of fallen from grace...
633
00:41:09,384 --> 00:41:15,630
...the Wizards Protector Society, which is what
Shazam is and what Black Adam was.
634
00:41:16,307 --> 00:41:19,390
The Crime Syndicate characters
that have been around for decades...
635
00:41:19,602 --> 00:41:23,596
...they come from a version--
A parallel Earth, a version of our Earth...
636
00:41:23,815 --> 00:41:27,024
...where everyone who's good is bad
and everyone who is bad is good.
637
00:41:27,235 --> 00:41:30,648
And so you've got
an evil Superman in Ultraman.
638
00:41:30,863 --> 00:41:33,821
Then you have Owlman,
who is a dark version of Batman.
639
00:41:34,033 --> 00:41:36,821
And Superwoman,
who is a dark version of Wonder Woman.
640
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,404
You have Johnny Quick and Power Ring.
Power Ring is this Green Lantern...
641
00:41:40,623 --> 00:41:42,159
...who's a coward.
642
00:41:42,375 --> 00:41:46,209
The Crime Syndicate represent the Justice
League completely flipped on its head...
643
00:41:46,421 --> 00:41:49,163
...and if they were horrible, horrible,
evil people.
644
00:41:49,382 --> 00:41:52,215
In terms of what they can accomplish
and who they can defeat...
645
00:41:52,427 --> 00:41:56,011
...they're on par with the Justice League,
but their goals are so perverted...
646
00:41:56,222 --> 00:41:59,590
...compared to the honor and the morality
that the Justice League have.
647
00:41:59,809 --> 00:42:05,771
Which leaves the governments of the world
with two choices, bow down to us or die.
648
00:42:07,150 --> 00:42:10,939
The best supervillains that resonate the most,
they do it on two levels.
649
00:42:11,154 --> 00:42:16,524
They do it-- How they psychologically
reflect or challenge your superhero...
650
00:42:16,743 --> 00:42:21,032
...and then also, in the story,
what they've done to affect the superhero's life.
651
00:42:21,247 --> 00:42:24,114
If there is not that personal connection,
it just weakens it.
652
00:42:24,333 --> 00:42:27,416
It just becomes another person trying
to do something dastardly.
653
00:42:27,628 --> 00:42:31,462
When well-paired, the villain's been able
to get inside the superhero's head.
654
00:42:31,674 --> 00:42:35,963
It's almost as if he knows precisely what makes
them vulnerable, what their greatest fear is.
655
00:42:36,179 --> 00:42:38,637
When they make it personal
and can make it personal...
656
00:42:38,848 --> 00:42:43,058
...when the villains have the knowledge to
make it personal and know your inner secrets...
657
00:42:43,269 --> 00:42:44,759
...that's when things get real.
658
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,097
Talia al Ghul, she fell in love with Batman.
659
00:42:48,316 --> 00:42:51,684
So when it comes to the point
of killing Batman...
660
00:42:51,903 --> 00:42:54,736
...many times in many stories,
she draws the line there.
661
00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:57,814
She will not kill him.
She wants him for her own.
662
00:43:00,828 --> 00:43:05,868
Star Sapphire was not only Hal Jordan's boss,
but also girlfriend.
663
00:43:06,084 --> 00:43:08,041
And when she was manipulated...
664
00:43:08,252 --> 00:43:12,746
...she did not know consciously
that she had become Star Sapphire.
665
00:43:12,965 --> 00:43:16,378
Then you've got this interesting dynamic...
666
00:43:16,594 --> 00:43:21,930
...of when he ultimately finds out that this
is his girlfriend and he's got to battle her.
667
00:43:22,141 --> 00:43:27,307
And how does he battle her
when she's so smart without hurting her?
668
00:43:27,522 --> 00:43:33,484
That kind of conflict of people
who were once friends and become enemies...
669
00:43:33,694 --> 00:43:39,360
...you know, it's almost like the Greek
tragedies, these enormous stories of betrayal.
670
00:43:39,575 --> 00:43:41,566
I just ended my run
with Green Lantern 20.
671
00:43:41,786 --> 00:43:48,078
And as I was wrapping it up the story kind
of organically revolved around not only Hal...
672
00:43:48,292 --> 00:43:51,785
...but Hal and Sinestro and that relationship
is really key to Green Lantern.
673
00:43:52,004 --> 00:43:56,214
There is this moment where Sinestro,
who blames the Guardians of the Universe...
674
00:43:56,425 --> 00:43:58,666
...who have done all these horrible things...
675
00:43:58,886 --> 00:44:01,674
...against the Corps they created--
They tried to destroy it.
676
00:44:01,889 --> 00:44:04,756
They're ultimately the big bad guys
of the piece.
677
00:44:04,976 --> 00:44:08,264
And Sinestro vows to destroy them.
"I'm going to kill them one by one."
678
00:44:08,479 --> 00:44:11,187
And Hal says, "I can't let you do that."
And he grabs him.
679
00:44:11,399 --> 00:44:13,891
And Sinestro says,
"You think they can still be saved?
680
00:44:14,110 --> 00:44:16,192
You think that they can be redeemed?"
681
00:44:16,404 --> 00:44:19,237
And Hal says,
“This isn't about them, this is about you."
682
00:44:19,448 --> 00:44:21,280
He says, "I wanna save you.
683
00:44:21,492 --> 00:44:24,985
You don't have to lower yourself to this level.
You don't have to kill them.
684
00:44:25,204 --> 00:44:27,036
You can be a great Green Lantern."
685
00:44:27,248 --> 00:44:30,286
And he goes, "Because I believe in you."
686
00:44:30,501 --> 00:44:34,790
And Sinestro looks at him and he says,
“Jordan, it's too late. I've already killed them."
687
00:44:35,006 --> 00:44:39,466
And you reveal that Sinestro has already
wiped out the Guardians, one by one by one.
688
00:44:39,677 --> 00:44:41,839
And Sinestro's like, "I'm leaving forever.
689
00:44:42,054 --> 00:44:44,716
But before I go, you had a question
you wanted to ask me."
690
00:44:44,932 --> 00:44:48,300
And Hal says, you know,
"Were we ever friends, Sinestro?"
691
00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:51,181
And Sinestro, who has never called him
by his first name--
692
00:44:51,397 --> 00:44:52,728
He's always called him Jordan.
693
00:44:52,940 --> 00:44:55,648
--Says, "You know, that's the tragedy
of all this, Jordan."
694
00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:58,773
He goes, "Hal, we'll always be friends."
695
00:45:01,157 --> 00:45:04,695
Might is not reserved solely for the just.
696
00:45:04,911 --> 00:45:08,495
While heroes can exhibit
incredible strength or skills...
697
00:45:08,706 --> 00:45:14,497
...villains may possess abilities equal to
or even greater than their foes.
698
00:45:14,712 --> 00:45:18,205
It's not enough for villains merely
to offer a challenge to the heroes...
699
00:45:18,966 --> 00:45:23,711
...but, rather, they must present
the all-too-real possibility...
700
00:45:23,930 --> 00:45:28,140
...that good might not triumph over evil.
701
00:45:28,351 --> 00:45:30,888
You're defined by the height
of the mountain you climb.
702
00:45:31,103 --> 00:45:35,893
And so the higher the mountain,
the more the epic struggle it is to climb that...
703
00:45:36,108 --> 00:45:39,692
...the greater the adventure,
the greater the hero.
704
00:45:39,904 --> 00:45:44,489
If I have the powers of the gods,
then am I not a god myself?
705
00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:47,943
A good villain,
you have to believe that he can win.
706
00:45:48,162 --> 00:45:53,532
If you have Superman fighting
a common mugger, that's not interesting.
707
00:45:53,751 --> 00:45:55,412
You know that Superman's gonna win.
708
00:45:55,628 --> 00:46:00,338
The idea that Lex Luthor can out-think
Superman, that he is smarter than Superman...
709
00:46:00,549 --> 00:46:06,841
...and no matter what Superman's powers are,
Lex Luthor can think of a way to defeat him...
710
00:46:07,056 --> 00:46:11,345
...makes that dynamic
between the pair of them brilliant.
711
00:46:12,812 --> 00:46:15,895
It's why we created Ra's al Ghul.
712
00:46:16,107 --> 00:46:19,566
You need a Moriarty for Sherlock Holmes.
713
00:46:19,777 --> 00:46:25,898
If Sherlock Holmes is superior
to every criminal out there...
714
00:46:26,117 --> 00:46:27,278
...what's his value?
715
00:46:27,493 --> 00:46:31,407
So we want Sherlock Holmes
to have a Moriarty.
716
00:46:31,622 --> 00:46:34,034
We want Batman to have a Ra's al Ghul.
717
00:46:34,250 --> 00:46:36,457
And we want it to be neck and neck.
718
00:46:41,299 --> 00:46:44,508
Superman has all his powers
because he's on Earth...
719
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,008
...and watching Zod discover
that he has those same powers...
720
00:46:49,223 --> 00:46:53,091
...I think Superman and Zod
could fight for centuries.
721
00:46:53,311 --> 00:46:55,973
And basically, it just comes down to...
722
00:46:56,188 --> 00:47:01,729
The person who's gonna win that fight
is the person who puts the most heart into it.
723
00:47:01,944 --> 00:47:05,403
When I was writing Superman,
I created the character called Mongul...
724
00:47:05,614 --> 00:47:08,231
...who has become very big
in the mythos since.
725
00:47:08,451 --> 00:47:11,034
Basically, because I felt,
"All right, this is silly.
726
00:47:11,245 --> 00:47:13,657
You've got a guy here who moves planets...
727
00:47:13,873 --> 00:47:17,491
...and he has to fight a guy
he has to outsmart to beat.
728
00:47:17,710 --> 00:47:20,372
What about somebody
who can kick his butt?"
729
00:47:20,588 --> 00:47:23,546
So I came up with Mongul,
who was bigger and strong and taller.
730
00:47:23,758 --> 00:47:25,920
And he gives somebody
a physical challenge.
731
00:47:26,135 --> 00:47:32,677
Somebody Superman has to work to beat,
just on a hands-on basis.
732
00:47:35,561 --> 00:47:40,772
Darkseid is a great villain just because
of the amount of power that he holds.
733
00:47:40,983 --> 00:47:46,729
He's godlike and it's not easy to fight him
and come back alive.
734
00:47:46,947 --> 00:47:52,363
Going up against a character like Darkseid
really proves your hero's worth.
735
00:47:52,787 --> 00:47:57,907
The Anti-Monitor is a character like Darkseid,
one of our cosmic-level villains.
736
00:47:58,125 --> 00:48:00,583
He's a force of nature, a force of danger.
737
00:48:00,795 --> 00:48:05,756
Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor
can literally cross time and space...
738
00:48:05,966 --> 00:48:11,086
...and they represent a threat that, again,
only a hero such as Superman...
739
00:48:11,305 --> 00:48:17,677
...or a hero of that level can face and that's why
they are almost more frightening.
740
00:48:17,895 --> 00:48:20,853
Again, to an earlier point,
that's why we need a Superman...
741
00:48:21,065 --> 00:48:24,478
...because they have to deal with threats
that we as common people can't.
742
00:48:26,237 --> 00:48:30,151
In a battle of equals,
the outcome always remains uncertain...
743
00:48:31,117 --> 00:48:34,655
...and, on occasion,
fortune favors the fiendish.
744
00:48:35,788 --> 00:48:38,246
The villain escapes soot-free.
745
00:48:38,457 --> 00:48:42,371
They get their lucky break
or manage to land the killing blow.
746
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:49,462
What does it mean when the hero falls in battle
and the villain emerges victorious?
747
00:48:49,677 --> 00:48:54,547
If it's all too clean and too neat,
why are we continuing to buy books?
748
00:48:54,765 --> 00:48:58,099
Why are we continuing
to read these stories...
749
00:48:58,310 --> 00:49:01,678
...if we don't have the sense
that there's a certain danger...
750
00:49:01,897 --> 00:49:04,855
...or a mortal danger to our hero?
751
00:49:05,067 --> 00:49:07,900
You know, we have a very clear statement.
We said, you know:
752
00:49:08,112 --> 00:49:10,649
"The hero has to win every time.
753
00:49:10,865 --> 00:49:12,902
The villain only has to win once."
754
00:49:13,117 --> 00:49:16,985
Even though we want ultimate good
to triumph over evil...
755
00:49:17,204 --> 00:49:21,198
...there will be battles along the way
where there are setbacks.
756
00:49:21,417 --> 00:49:26,002
The question of "Can the villain succeed?"
Is always a tricky one.
757
00:49:26,213 --> 00:49:27,248
I believe they can...
758
00:49:27,465 --> 00:49:33,802
...but obviously you have to make certain
that you're careful, the extent of it.
759
00:49:34,013 --> 00:49:35,845
There are different kinds of villains...
760
00:49:36,056 --> 00:49:39,265
...and thus different kinds of impact
to what a villain does.
761
00:49:39,477 --> 00:49:41,593
Most of the criminal villains...
762
00:49:41,812 --> 00:49:45,100
...the guys who are just out there
to rob a bank or do whatever...
763
00:49:45,316 --> 00:49:47,648
...don't leave lasting impact.
764
00:49:47,860 --> 00:49:53,981
The ones like the Joker
potentially can affect an entire series.
765
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,532
Don't you just love a happy ending?
766
00:49:56,744 --> 00:50:01,409
One of the risks of being a superhero
is that the people that you love...
767
00:50:01,624 --> 00:50:05,117
...whether they're superheroes
themselves or citizens...
768
00:50:05,336 --> 00:50:06,918
...you put them at risk.
769
00:50:07,129 --> 00:50:11,418
And so with Jason Todd,
essentially that is what happened...
770
00:50:11,634 --> 00:50:14,843
...where the Joker murders him...
771
00:50:15,054 --> 00:50:21,391
...and we have one of these rare instances
where a primary character was murdered.
772
00:50:21,602 --> 00:50:24,594
For Batman, that meant incredible guilt.
773
00:50:24,813 --> 00:50:27,931
That meant feeling
that he was responsible for the death...
774
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:31,188
...and that was what
the Joker essentially wanted.
775
00:50:33,572 --> 00:50:36,655
I always loved Black Manta.
You never knew his real name.
776
00:50:36,867 --> 00:50:40,952
He had that helmet that covered his face.
He killed Aquaman's baby.
777
00:50:41,163 --> 00:50:45,327
You have to be a real sick,
cold bastard to kill a baby.
778
00:50:45,543 --> 00:50:48,581
It felt so horrific to me
that I couldn't do anything...
779
00:50:48,796 --> 00:50:52,664
...but look at this character and go,
“This is the coldest guy in the DC universe."
780
00:50:52,883 --> 00:50:55,671
In a lot of ways,
I think Black Manta to Aquaman...
781
00:50:55,886 --> 00:51:00,005
...is very much akin to
what Bane is to the Batman.
782
00:51:01,850 --> 00:51:04,217
Both characters were very capable...
783
00:51:04,436 --> 00:51:08,475
...and did cause great harm and pain
to the main characters.
784
00:51:08,691 --> 00:51:13,060
When Bane broke Bruce Wayne's back...
785
00:51:13,279 --> 00:51:16,442
...it was proof positive to all the readers
around the world...
786
00:51:16,657 --> 00:51:19,524
...that, yes, you got this right
all these years.
787
00:51:20,202 --> 00:51:22,489
This is a superhero
who has no superpowers...
788
00:51:22,705 --> 00:51:26,243
...who, arguably, his greatest superpower
is his humanity...
789
00:51:26,458 --> 00:51:27,493
...who is vulnerable...
790
00:51:27,710 --> 00:51:30,793
...whom you can identify with
because he has no superpowers.
791
00:51:31,005 --> 00:51:35,420
And now, maybe for the first time,
we're taking that one extra step.
792
00:51:35,634 --> 00:51:37,170
We are crossing the Rubicon...
793
00:51:37,386 --> 00:51:40,799
...and we are showing you,
and his back is broken...
794
00:51:41,015 --> 00:51:44,599
...and Batman is either dead
or incapacitated.
795
00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:48,644
And I think readers still remember that.
Readers have a visceral reaction to that.
796
00:51:48,856 --> 00:51:51,769
This is someone who could hurt Batman.
This is someone Batman...
797
00:51:51,984 --> 00:51:54,351
...even in his calmest of nights
wakes up and thinks:
798
00:51:54,570 --> 00:51:57,858
"This is a guy who once really severely hurt me,
who's still out there."
799
00:51:58,073 --> 00:52:01,907
So I think that's why Bane still has
that kind of attraction to readers.
800
00:52:04,288 --> 00:52:08,828
What Bane was to Batman,
Doomsday was to Superman...
801
00:52:09,043 --> 00:52:12,411
...the embodiment
of brutal physical force.
802
00:52:14,381 --> 00:52:17,999
This is the great fear Superman has.
803
00:52:18,218 --> 00:52:22,257
Having a foe that he cannot find a way
to stop one way or another.
804
00:52:22,473 --> 00:52:24,635
He was designed to kill Superman.
805
00:52:24,850 --> 00:52:28,013
Every time he dies,
he comes back stronger...
806
00:52:28,228 --> 00:52:31,516
...with whatever killed him now
no longer something that can kill him.
807
00:52:31,732 --> 00:52:34,941
Doomsday stirs up massive chaos...
808
00:52:35,152 --> 00:52:40,022
...and delivers the hero
his biggest defeat ever.
809
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:42,948
Doomsday kills Superman.
810
00:52:43,827 --> 00:52:48,993
I can't think of another villain where his
appearance on the stage is enough that...
811
00:52:49,208 --> 00:52:51,916
...you know, the world is shaking.
812
00:52:52,127 --> 00:52:56,872
I would even argue that the death of Superman
story itself isn't even a story.
813
00:52:57,091 --> 00:52:58,707
It's just a fight scene.
814
00:52:58,926 --> 00:53:02,339
The story comes
from how the world reacts afterwards.
815
00:53:02,554 --> 00:53:04,795
When you get to see
the "Funeral For a Friend"...
816
00:53:05,015 --> 00:53:07,131
...you see what Superman meant
to the world...
817
00:53:07,351 --> 00:53:10,139
...which reflected what the real world
did a lot...
818
00:53:10,354 --> 00:53:13,221
...when they thought we were really
gonna leave Superman dead.
819
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,977
They went crazy sad.
820
00:53:18,987 --> 00:53:22,901
Any time you have that level
of tragedy impacting a DC character...
821
00:53:23,117 --> 00:53:26,781
...we go through and show
the repercussions of that act...
822
00:53:26,995 --> 00:53:30,078
...and how it affects the relationships
between all the heroes...
823
00:53:30,290 --> 00:53:32,873
...and the impact it has
on all their friends and family.
824
00:53:33,085 --> 00:53:35,326
And so, to me, it's not done lightly.
825
00:53:35,546 --> 00:53:38,288
We don't have last episodes.
We have the next episode.
826
00:53:38,507 --> 00:53:41,625
And we do have to deal
with the repercussions.
827
00:53:41,844 --> 00:53:45,428
And, again,
if the bad guys are winning too often...
828
00:53:45,639 --> 00:53:51,055
...then that hero doesn't deserve his own title
and he should probably stop being a hero.
829
00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:54,388
Superman died, but that wasn't
what the story was about.
830
00:53:54,606 --> 00:53:57,143
His death was a piece of that story.
831
00:53:57,359 --> 00:53:59,316
It was almost the beginning of the story.
832
00:53:59,528 --> 00:54:03,487
And then Dan Jurgens and Mike Carlin, all
those guys created Reign of the Supermen...
833
00:54:03,699 --> 00:54:05,986
...which is all about Superman's return.
834
00:54:06,744 --> 00:54:09,236
With Batman breaking his back,
it was the same thing.
835
00:54:09,455 --> 00:54:10,695
How strong is Bruce Wayne?
836
00:54:10,914 --> 00:54:13,076
His back's broken,
but the city still needs him.
837
00:54:13,292 --> 00:54:15,454
So he heals himself
and comes back as Batman.
838
00:54:15,669 --> 00:54:18,502
He overcomes that.
But sometimes the villains do win...
839
00:54:18,714 --> 00:54:20,876
...but it's only momentarily.
840
00:54:21,091 --> 00:54:26,837
Any general can tell you it's not the battles,
it's the ultimate war.
841
00:54:27,055 --> 00:54:31,595
And I think if you look at the grand scope
of the DC universe...
842
00:54:31,810 --> 00:54:34,177
...it is ultimately good triumphing over evil.
843
00:54:34,396 --> 00:54:37,058
The best stories,
the stories that kind of last with you...
844
00:54:37,274 --> 00:54:41,609
...are the ones that even though good wins,
there's a price to be had for that victory.
845
00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:47,065
I don't consider the hero having a victory
if it doesn't come at a cost.
846
00:54:47,284 --> 00:54:51,278
They have to have something sacrificed,
either personal or physical...
847
00:54:51,497 --> 00:54:53,158
...that occurs every time they win.
848
00:54:53,373 --> 00:54:58,539
They have to be giving up something
of what they are in order to help mankind.
849
00:54:58,754 --> 00:55:01,746
They're making a sacrifice every time
they put that costume on...
850
00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:06,129
...every time they're confronting something
and putting themselves at risk.
851
00:55:06,345 --> 00:55:10,054
So, therefore, there should be something
given up in their social life...
852
00:55:10,265 --> 00:55:12,347
...their personal life, about who they are.
853
00:55:12,559 --> 00:55:15,392
They should be a little broken
because of what they've done.
854
00:55:15,604 --> 00:55:19,563
Only thing that keeps them going is that
they're doing something for the better good...
855
00:55:19,775 --> 00:55:21,391
...and for helping other people.
856
00:55:27,950 --> 00:55:31,193
In the history of comics, DC in particular...
857
00:55:31,411 --> 00:55:34,369
...there are not hundreds,
there are thousands of supervillains.
858
00:55:34,581 --> 00:55:35,946
Thousands of supervillains.
859
00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:38,658
And there's no way
we can talk about all of them.
860
00:55:38,877 --> 00:55:40,834
We can only talk about a fraction of them.
861
00:55:41,046 --> 00:55:44,459
I think that the very fact that we have
such a wide variety of villains...
862
00:55:44,675 --> 00:55:46,882
...that can be anything from, you know...
863
00:55:47,094 --> 00:55:50,758
...essentially, a high-tech bank robber
to someone like Darkseid who is a new god...
864
00:55:50,973 --> 00:55:53,214
...is something I think strengthens
our universe.
865
00:55:53,433 --> 00:55:57,347
It gives us, you know,
a great spectrum of villainy.
866
00:55:57,563 --> 00:56:00,897
NARRATOR". This spectrum of evil
is diverse and dynamic...
867
00:56:01,108 --> 00:56:06,820
...falling into a vast array of villainous
categories and characteristics.
868
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:11,649
Indeed, the tropes and commonalities
of villainy are far-reaching.
869
00:56:11,869 --> 00:56:14,782
First off is the uncontrollable beast...
870
00:56:14,997 --> 00:56:21,209
...that rages and rains down destruction
on those unfortunate souls caught in its path...
871
00:56:21,420 --> 00:56:22,581
...the monster.
872
00:56:22,796 --> 00:56:24,628
My favorite monster is my--
873
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,333
The classic monsters, the reason
that they're enduring and scary...
874
00:56:28,552 --> 00:56:31,670
...is because they almost--
They look like people that you love...
875
00:56:31,889 --> 00:56:33,880
...or that you care about or that you trust.
876
00:56:34,099 --> 00:56:35,885
Your neighbors, your wife, your mother.
877
00:56:36,101 --> 00:56:40,186
Then something infects them or turns them
into something that's an unstoppable force.
878
00:56:40,397 --> 00:56:44,937
Probably the most illustrious monster of the
Golden Age of comics was Solomon Grundy.
879
00:56:45,152 --> 00:56:46,267
He's an animated corpse.
880
00:56:46,486 --> 00:56:49,695
The heroes, even Batman,
is okay with trying to destroy Grundy...
881
00:56:49,907 --> 00:56:51,318
...because he's dead already.
882
00:56:51,533 --> 00:56:54,275
I like Bizarro Superman
because he's just so off-the-wall.
883
00:56:54,494 --> 00:56:58,032
I mean, he's like just sort of
a crazy super powerful...
884
00:56:58,248 --> 00:57:02,207
...almost Frankenstein monster
version of Superman.
885
00:57:02,419 --> 00:57:04,501
A villain as old as literature...
886
00:57:04,713 --> 00:57:08,331
...but only heightened by the advent
of the atomic bomb...
887
00:57:08,550 --> 00:57:12,965
...the mad scientist reflects our mistrust
and fear of technology...
888
00:57:13,180 --> 00:57:16,343
...of advances that could undo us
as a people.
889
00:57:16,558 --> 00:57:19,767
New inventions come along
that could be...
890
00:57:19,978 --> 00:57:24,097
...the most wonderful boon for humanity...
891
00:57:24,316 --> 00:57:26,853
...or it could mean
the seeds of their destruction.
892
00:57:27,069 --> 00:57:32,690
So it figures that mad scientists
would be one of the true fears...
893
00:57:32,908 --> 00:57:35,946
...incorporated into the personified forms
of supervillains.
894
00:57:36,161 --> 00:57:42,533
Doctor Sivana was a cackling,
bald, bespectacled scientist...
895
00:57:42,751 --> 00:57:45,118
...who usually could be seen in a white coat.
896
00:57:45,337 --> 00:57:50,673
And he was responsible continually
for the near demise of Shazam.
897
00:57:50,884 --> 00:57:53,876
Before there was a Doctor Sivana,
for Lex Luthor...
898
00:57:54,096 --> 00:57:57,054
...there was the Ultra-Humanite...
899
00:57:57,265 --> 00:58:00,803
...who was sort of
like the very first mad scientist.
900
00:58:01,019 --> 00:58:05,764
He put his brain into other people's bodies,
or his consciousness in other people's bodies.
901
00:58:05,983 --> 00:58:09,101
So I believe, at one time,
he was a beautiful woman.
902
00:58:09,319 --> 00:58:13,153
He was different people
throughout his history.
903
00:58:13,365 --> 00:58:15,902
And now he's like a white ape-like creature.
904
00:58:16,118 --> 00:58:17,984
Charmed, I'm sure.
905
00:58:18,203 --> 00:58:21,321
But that just goes to show the power
of the mind over the matter.
906
00:58:21,540 --> 00:58:23,952
It doesn't matter what you look like
on the outside.
907
00:58:24,167 --> 00:58:28,035
As long as that brain survives,
that brain is going to be trouble for you.
908
00:58:28,255 --> 00:58:29,620
NARRATOR".
A militant general...
909
00:58:30,757 --> 00:58:33,249
...a despot, a conqueror.
910
00:58:33,468 --> 00:58:37,962
This is a villain not far removed
from our world's own tyrants.
911
00:58:38,181 --> 00:58:43,426
We know them as the dictator,
or more simply the overlord.
912
00:58:44,021 --> 00:58:47,434
I have a duty to my people.
913
00:58:47,649 --> 00:58:52,234
And I will not allow anyone
to prevent me from carrying it out.
914
00:58:52,446 --> 00:58:54,483
With Zod, it's a pure power thing.
915
00:58:54,740 --> 00:58:56,981
There's something very moving
about the fact...
916
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:58,986
...that this story begins with him...
917
00:58:59,202 --> 00:59:04,788
...basically seeing his entire planet explode...
918
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,209
...like his home evaporate into nothing.
919
00:59:08,420 --> 00:59:13,836
I can't imagine a bigger launching-off point
for a character...
920
00:59:14,051 --> 00:59:19,842
...and then knowing that he'll do
whatever he can to make a new Krypton...
921
00:59:20,057 --> 00:59:22,139
...because he can't help himself.
922
00:59:22,350 --> 00:59:23,966
It's the only option he has.
923
00:59:24,186 --> 00:59:26,143
It's what he was born to do.
924
00:59:26,354 --> 00:59:29,016
That's what he's been training to do
his whole life.
925
00:59:29,232 --> 00:59:31,439
He's fighting for Krypton, for his people.
926
00:59:31,651 --> 00:59:33,608
And he's a warrior.
927
00:59:33,820 --> 00:59:36,061
And so he's capable of committing, like...
928
00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:40,696
...horrific crimes against humanity
and/or anything living.
929
00:59:40,911 --> 00:59:44,779
Starro the Conqueror is an alien starfish.
930
00:59:44,998 --> 00:59:51,961
Giant starfish that comes down on Earth
and seizes control city by city.
931
00:59:52,172 --> 00:59:56,962
Then in terms of seizing their minds, it was
right out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
932
00:59:57,552 --> 01:00:00,590
Culled from our own
Mob-laden underworld...
933
01:00:00,806 --> 01:00:05,846
...the criminal mastermind
is both power-hungry and immoral.
934
01:00:06,061 --> 01:00:08,974
Feeding their insatiable desire for control...
935
01:00:09,189 --> 01:00:14,605
...they keep the public in fear
as they tighten their grasp on their domain.
936
01:00:14,820 --> 01:00:18,188
Certainly one of the great types of villains
is the criminal mastermind...
937
01:00:18,406 --> 01:00:23,742
...the guy who holds an entire city or town
or village or whatever in a grip of fear.
938
01:00:23,954 --> 01:00:28,073
Penguin has what is informally
known as a Napoleon complex...
939
01:00:28,291 --> 01:00:30,578
...the small man who wants to be big.
940
01:00:30,794 --> 01:00:34,583
If he could lose that weight, he wouldn't,
because it helps him take up more space.
941
01:00:34,798 --> 01:00:35,913
His hat makes him taller.
942
01:00:36,133 --> 01:00:38,750
His umbrella, when extended,
helps him take up more area.
943
01:00:39,010 --> 01:00:41,502
From the very first story he appears in...
944
01:00:41,721 --> 01:00:44,713
...he wants to rise up in high society
and wants to be a crime boss.
945
01:00:44,933 --> 01:00:47,265
A number of stories feature him
running for mayor...
946
01:00:47,477 --> 01:00:50,560
...not because he wants to do something great.
He wants that status.
947
01:00:50,772 --> 01:00:51,887
He wants the power...
948
01:00:52,107 --> 01:00:55,645
...and he wants the status to be the big man
over everybody else in Gotham.
949
01:00:55,861 --> 01:01:00,822
The criminal mastermind
is sort of an extension of the real...
950
01:01:01,032 --> 01:01:06,198
...Mob crime organizations or crime families
that have been a part of American history...
951
01:01:06,413 --> 01:01:09,906
...almost since the country was founded.
That's a great character for comics...
952
01:01:11,376 --> 01:01:13,868
...because you can take that into the area
of caricature.
953
01:01:14,087 --> 01:01:15,828
Currently, guys like Black Mask.
954
01:01:16,047 --> 01:01:18,664
What's more hideous than a guy
in this, you know...
955
01:01:18,884 --> 01:01:20,841
...awful-looking skull mask...
956
01:01:21,052 --> 01:01:24,090
...wearing a business suit,
commanding a legion of street troopers?
957
01:01:24,306 --> 01:01:26,513
I mean, that's a great foe for Batman.
958
01:01:26,725 --> 01:01:30,969
To guys like Penguin, Black Mask,
they're out to really dominate the city.
959
01:01:31,188 --> 01:01:35,477
They wanna be the distorted, hideous,
grotesque face of Gotham City.
960
01:01:35,692 --> 01:01:39,230
- Can we get some girls in here?
- Careful what you wish for.
961
01:01:45,911 --> 01:01:47,117
Unh!
962
01:01:50,415 --> 01:01:51,655
Cat got your tongue?
963
01:01:51,875 --> 01:01:53,240
The apple on the tree.
964
01:01:53,460 --> 01:01:56,418
The seductive siren song of the temptress.
965
01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:58,496
The femme fatale.
966
01:01:58,715 --> 01:02:04,336
The femme fatale crystallizes the qualities
of both a villain and a love interest...
967
01:02:04,554 --> 01:02:06,511
mall at the same time.
968
01:02:06,723 --> 01:02:08,839
You can find roots in movies.
969
01:02:09,059 --> 01:02:11,266
You can find the actresses...
970
01:02:11,478 --> 01:02:16,063
...who maybe inspired
some of the villainesses who were created.
971
01:02:16,274 --> 01:02:22,111
And these were women who used
their beauty to lure the hero in...
972
01:02:22,322 --> 01:02:25,110
...to get the hero to do their bidding.
973
01:02:25,325 --> 01:02:27,657
And that of course
was reflected in the comics.
974
01:02:27,869 --> 01:02:30,031
It was part of the inherent popular culture.
975
01:02:30,247 --> 01:02:33,956
Poison Ivy is a great example
of a female villain...
976
01:02:34,167 --> 01:02:37,501
...who will actually take advantage,
knowing that the male characters...
977
01:02:37,712 --> 01:02:39,953
...the male heroes,
and even the male villains...
978
01:02:40,173 --> 01:02:43,837
...that she's working with,
are the ones susceptible to love...
979
01:02:44,052 --> 01:02:46,214
...to connecting with her.
980
01:02:46,429 --> 01:02:51,390
And she uses those assumptions
for her own gain.
981
01:02:51,601 --> 01:02:54,343
She finds that her power is in, essentially...
982
01:02:55,021 --> 01:02:59,606
...taking advantage of other people's
vulnerability to emotions.
983
01:02:59,818 --> 01:03:05,279
She took everything that could be seen
as objectification towards women...
984
01:03:05,490 --> 01:03:08,653
...and then used it as her own power
and turns it around on the guys.
985
01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:11,280
She's very interested in controlling people.
986
01:03:11,496 --> 01:03:15,160
Harley Quinn is a case of love gone bad.
987
01:03:15,375 --> 01:03:20,165
The individual who's fascinated
with the supervillains...
988
01:03:20,380 --> 01:03:24,374
"fascinated with their egos and their qualities,
and Joker plays to that.
989
01:03:24,592 --> 01:03:27,835
So Harleen Quinzel is a woman...
990
01:03:28,054 --> 01:03:32,469
...who is a psychiatry intern, essentially,
at Arkham Asylum.
991
01:03:32,684 --> 01:03:34,891
When Bruce Timm
and I wrote the origin for her...
992
01:03:35,103 --> 01:03:37,720
...in Mad Love, then we really got
into her personality.
993
01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:43,434
That she wanted to write a tell-all book
about Gotham's psychotic criminals...
994
01:03:43,653 --> 01:03:46,736
...then wound up falling under the sway of one
and becoming one herself.
995
01:03:46,948 --> 01:03:50,157
She wants the toughest case possible.
996
01:03:50,368 --> 01:03:52,109
And who is the toughest case?
It's the Joker.
997
01:03:52,329 --> 01:03:54,445
There's this connection
that they have together.
998
01:03:54,664 --> 01:03:57,156
I think there is an element
of manipulation on his end.
999
01:03:57,375 --> 01:03:59,412
That he, um...
1000
01:03:59,627 --> 01:04:03,621
I think he fancies her,
but also that he's realizing that...
1001
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,834
...here's an opportunity for him
to get out of Arkham Asylum.
1002
01:04:08,053 --> 01:04:09,714
Harley's a bit of a social chameleon.
1003
01:04:09,929 --> 01:04:14,014
She molds herself to the people around her.
When she hangs out with heroes, she's heroic.
1004
01:04:14,225 --> 01:04:18,719
She hangs out with villains, she's villainous.
When with the Joker, she's more murderous...
1005
01:04:18,938 --> 01:04:20,599
...than she is at other times.
1006
01:04:20,815 --> 01:04:23,523
Some of the villainesses that we have
in the DC universe...
1007
01:04:23,735 --> 01:04:26,898
- ...are almost more powerful than the villains.
- The sky is the limit...
1008
01:04:27,113 --> 01:04:28,524
...as far as female villains are concerned.
1009
01:04:28,740 --> 01:04:31,823
Someone like Cheetah, who is crazy ferocious.
1010
01:04:32,035 --> 01:04:35,448
With the Cheetah,
I wanted to create somebody...
1011
01:04:35,663 --> 01:04:38,030
...who resonated
with Wonder Woman, with Diana.
1012
01:04:38,249 --> 01:04:40,786
We added kind of a back-story
that they were friends...
1013
01:04:41,002 --> 01:04:43,414
...and then ultimately
she became the Cheetah.
1014
01:04:43,630 --> 01:04:46,543
And Wonder Woman later learned
she was never really her friend.
1015
01:04:46,758 --> 01:04:50,251
It was all just a play, and it was
a bond of trust that was broken.
1016
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:54,464
And the Cheetah has turned into this savage
creature that wants to destroy humanity...
1017
01:04:54,682 --> 01:04:57,765
...as much as Wonder Woman wants
to protect it.
1018
01:04:58,478 --> 01:04:59,593
At this point in time...
1019
01:04:59,813 --> 01:05:04,102
...I think we're lucky enough to be in an era
where there is a lot more equality.
1020
01:05:04,317 --> 01:05:06,399
And you're getting some great stories.
1021
01:05:06,611 --> 01:05:08,602
They can be defined by what their plot is...
1022
01:05:08,822 --> 01:05:13,737
...what their motive is, what their goals are,
what their methods are.
1023
01:05:13,952 --> 01:05:18,241
And that's great that you don't simply
have to define them by gender.
1024
01:05:18,456 --> 01:05:21,369
The female villain, you know, historically...
1025
01:05:21,584 --> 01:05:23,621
...goes back all the way to Greek mythology.
1026
01:05:23,837 --> 01:05:25,953
Look at a character like Hera, for instance...
1027
01:05:26,172 --> 01:05:30,416
...who is both a heroine and a villain,
depending on the story.
1028
01:05:30,635 --> 01:05:34,879
Other female villains throughout time
have a lot of that same complexity to them.
1029
01:05:35,098 --> 01:05:37,430
You look at a character like Catwoman,
for instance.
1030
01:05:37,642 --> 01:05:41,101
In her original incarnation,
I believe, she was just an adventurer.
1031
01:05:41,312 --> 01:05:44,680
She was out there being
a burglar and jewel robber...
1032
01:05:44,899 --> 01:05:47,231
...simply because of the thrill of it.
1033
01:05:47,444 --> 01:05:51,233
We began learning more about her in the 80s,
what her past might have been...
1034
01:05:51,448 --> 01:05:55,407
...and that certainly made her more of a
complex and more of a sympathetic character.
1035
01:05:55,618 --> 01:05:58,280
And then to the present day where she is...
1036
01:05:58,496 --> 01:06:01,113
...I believe one of the members
of the Justice League.
1037
01:06:01,332 --> 01:06:06,077
So she's gone all the way from being
a villain to anti-hero to straight-on heroine.
1038
01:06:06,296 --> 01:06:11,416
She's very curious to us.
She has that duality of both good and evil.
1039
01:06:11,634 --> 01:06:15,047
And I think that that allows
her to be relatable.
1040
01:06:15,263 --> 01:06:18,005
I think that she's the most realistic.
1041
01:06:18,224 --> 01:06:24,220
It was just interesting to see
this strong, female character.
1042
01:06:24,772 --> 01:06:26,388
And she was a precursor, I think...
1043
01:06:26,608 --> 01:06:30,226
...to a lot of the sort of heroines
that we now see on screen.
1044
01:06:30,445 --> 01:06:36,282
Women really started to become more popular
on the big screen and on TV.
1045
01:06:36,493 --> 01:06:39,781
As a result, I think of characters
like Catwoman being portrayed...
1046
01:06:39,996 --> 01:06:43,239
...in the early days of television and film.
1047
01:06:43,458 --> 01:06:49,750
Today, happily,
from what I have seen and read...
1048
01:06:49,964 --> 01:06:53,878
...you have superheroes, superheroines,
supervillains, supervillainesses...
1049
01:06:54,093 --> 01:06:55,583
...all on a level playing field.
1050
01:06:55,803 --> 01:07:00,218
I think any time you can make
the character strong...
1051
01:07:00,433 --> 01:07:04,222
...whether they're male or female,
you'll end up with a good villain.
1052
01:07:04,437 --> 01:07:08,305
It should come as
no surprise, no coincidence, really...
1053
01:07:08,525 --> 01:07:12,814
...that the more popular heroes are the ones
who typically battle the most sinister...
1054
01:07:13,029 --> 01:07:15,691
...and charismatic rogues' galleries.
1055
01:07:15,907 --> 01:07:18,740
For it's this dynamic roster of villains...
1056
01:07:18,952 --> 01:07:23,446
...that bolster and buoy
the popularity of our hero.
1057
01:07:23,665 --> 01:07:26,703
When you look at the very best characters,
the very best heroes...
1058
01:07:26,918 --> 01:07:30,661
...in comic book mythology, they typically
have the strongest rogues' gallery.
1059
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:36,171
I think you develop a better rogues' gallery
around the superhero...
1060
01:07:36,386 --> 01:07:39,424
...if the scale of the superhero...
1061
01:07:40,348 --> 01:07:45,809
...is one where it's easy to imagine
the villain coming into being.
1062
01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:49,354
You look at Batman,
Batman ultimately is a human being.
1063
01:07:49,566 --> 01:07:54,686
So therefore you can have villains
that face him that are human plus a little.
1064
01:07:54,904 --> 01:07:57,987
Batman's rogues' gallery, which I think
is the best rogues' gallery...
1065
01:07:58,199 --> 01:08:00,987
...of all the DC heroes,
that resonates the most.
1066
01:08:01,202 --> 01:08:04,740
Those characters are considered,
you know, sort of the greater villains.
1067
01:08:05,498 --> 01:08:11,995
There's an interesting thing
about a lot of Batman's rogues...
1068
01:08:12,213 --> 01:08:16,582
...and here I'm specifically thinking
of, like, the Penguin and Two-Face...
1069
01:08:16,801 --> 01:08:18,542
...and Clayface and the Joker.
1070
01:08:18,761 --> 01:08:22,254
They're all physically deformed
in some way.
1071
01:08:22,473 --> 01:08:26,762
And that physical deformity
actually drives their evil.
1072
01:08:26,978 --> 01:08:30,346
Massively more difficult to have
villains of scale for Superman.
1073
01:08:30,565 --> 01:08:32,431
Character is incredibly powerful.
1074
01:08:32,650 --> 01:08:34,687
Who's tough enough to fight him?
1075
01:08:34,902 --> 01:08:41,740
Brainiac felt like a character who could actually
fight Superman and win without superpowers...
1076
01:08:41,951 --> 01:08:44,864
...because he's a computer.
He's a computer character.
1077
01:08:45,079 --> 01:08:50,165
So you must be Brainiac. Okay.
1078
01:08:50,376 --> 01:08:53,585
Brainiac was an alien
who was collecting cities...
1079
01:08:53,796 --> 01:08:56,879
...of different world cultures
as he moved throughout the galaxy...
1080
01:08:57,091 --> 01:08:59,002
...throughout the universe.
1081
01:08:59,218 --> 01:09:03,587
And he comes to Earth to shrink Metropolis,
among other cities...
1082
01:09:03,806 --> 01:09:05,422
...and put it in a glass bottle...
1083
01:09:05,642 --> 01:09:10,728
...and take it in his interplanetary collection
back to wherever he may have come from.
1084
01:09:10,938 --> 01:09:14,681
We didn't want it to always be Lex Luthor
that was fighting Superman, or Brainiac.
1085
01:09:14,901 --> 01:09:17,984
But then you start running
out of the famous names.
1086
01:09:18,196 --> 01:09:21,109
So we kept coming up with new guys,
you know.
1087
01:09:21,324 --> 01:09:27,445
The Parasite, he becomes
this individual who draws power from others.
1088
01:09:27,664 --> 01:09:31,157
He draws super power from Superman
or other superheroes he was around.
1089
01:09:31,376 --> 01:09:33,492
He draws life force from other people.
1090
01:09:33,711 --> 01:09:35,793
Sometimes even identity from other people.
1091
01:09:36,005 --> 01:09:38,167
I think Metallo's a really interesting villain.
1092
01:09:38,383 --> 01:09:42,217
And a large part of why I like him
is because he was human...
1093
01:09:42,428 --> 01:09:44,635
...but now he's got this Kryptonite heart.
1094
01:09:44,847 --> 01:09:48,135
So he still has a heart,
but it's a deformed heart.
1095
01:09:48,351 --> 01:09:52,640
It's an obscene heart. It's a heart of evil.
1096
01:09:52,855 --> 01:09:59,022
And that heart affects what he does,
and it has such a massive effect on Superman.
1097
01:09:59,237 --> 01:10:03,026
Characters like Superman and Wonder
Woman, the rogues' galleries get a lot smaller.
1098
01:10:03,241 --> 01:10:05,699
Wonder Woman in particular
has a very small gallery...
1099
01:10:05,910 --> 01:10:08,572
...because of who she is
and what she represents...
1100
01:10:08,788 --> 01:10:12,747
...and how she becomes more iconic
makes it harder to play off of her weaknesses...
1101
01:10:12,959 --> 01:10:15,917
...because a lot of people don't see
weaknesses in the character.
1102
01:10:16,129 --> 01:10:19,292
There's no major villainy
that could exploit those weaknesses in her.
1103
01:10:19,507 --> 01:10:23,296
We added another layer to Wonder Woman's
origin by making her the daughter of Zeus.
1104
01:10:23,511 --> 01:10:24,922
So she has divine blood.
1105
01:10:25,138 --> 01:10:28,551
And then we wanted to take it even further.
1106
01:10:28,766 --> 01:10:31,303
It's like, "Well, let's create somebody new,
a new god."
1107
01:10:31,519 --> 01:10:34,557
And it is-- We created this character
called the First Born.
1108
01:10:34,772 --> 01:10:38,606
He has no name.
He was the first child of Zeus and Hera.
1109
01:10:38,818 --> 01:10:41,981
And he was cast out of Olympus
because there was a prophecy...
1110
01:10:42,196 --> 01:10:43,812
...that he would take over Olympus.
1111
01:10:44,031 --> 01:10:49,367
So here is her original brother
who's been cast out of heaven and hated by all.
1112
01:10:49,579 --> 01:10:55,074
So now he's got a major hate-on
for his family and the world.
1113
01:11:00,339 --> 01:11:04,048
Just as heroes wit! Bond
together to fight a common enemy...
1114
01:11:04,260 --> 01:11:06,672
...so too will the villains.
1115
01:11:06,888 --> 01:11:12,008
The fusion of good is matched
only by the unification of evil.
1116
01:11:12,226 --> 01:11:17,096
The Crime Syndicate, the Secret Society...
1117
01:11:17,315 --> 01:11:21,354
...the Rogues, the Legion of Doom.
1118
01:11:21,569 --> 01:11:23,480
Though their members differ...
1119
01:11:23,696 --> 01:11:28,406
...all villain team-ups employ
the same battle-tested strategy:
1120
01:11:28,618 --> 01:11:30,825
There is strength in numbers.
1121
01:11:31,037 --> 01:11:33,779
My favorite aspect of working
in this business...
1122
01:11:33,998 --> 01:11:37,616
...is when I have created various
incarnations of various teams.
1123
01:11:37,835 --> 01:11:41,829
We need one character who can fly.
We need one character who's really strong.
1124
01:11:42,048 --> 01:11:44,665
We need one character
who's maybe got some magical powers.
1125
01:11:44,884 --> 01:11:47,717
And just putting that together
is half the challenge.
1126
01:11:47,929 --> 01:11:50,717
The story writes itself more often than
not after that.
1127
01:11:50,932 --> 01:11:52,843
In The Challenge of the Super Friends...
1128
01:11:53,059 --> 01:11:56,051
...where you've got
the Justice League members marching...
1129
01:11:56,270 --> 01:12:00,138
...towards the screen and then the other side,
the Legion of Doom are marching.
1130
01:12:00,358 --> 01:12:04,522
They're coming at each other, and there's this
explosion when the two sides hit each other.
1131
01:12:04,737 --> 01:12:08,275
I mean, you know, as a 6-, 7-year-old kid,
you know, it blew your mind.
1132
01:12:08,491 --> 01:12:12,280
Normally, villains are seen as individuals
and they have their own personal plot...
1133
01:12:12,495 --> 01:12:14,862
...to take over the world
or something like that.
1134
01:12:15,081 --> 01:12:19,996
But the idea of them combining together,
you know, makes their threat that much bigger.
1135
01:12:20,211 --> 01:12:24,296
Superviilain team-ups, ha, ha,
are their own unique animal...
1136
01:12:24,507 --> 01:12:26,544
...because on the one hand...
1137
01:12:26,759 --> 01:12:31,003
...there's a huge potential
and disappointment ratio...
1138
01:12:31,222 --> 01:12:33,179
...when supervillains team up.
1139
01:12:33,391 --> 01:12:35,632
The potential is, well...
1140
01:12:35,852 --> 01:12:38,184
...it's two great tastes
that taste great together.
1141
01:12:38,396 --> 01:12:40,728
It's two threats are better than one.
1142
01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:44,058
You know, when Lex Luthor
and Brainiac team up...
1143
01:12:44,277 --> 01:12:46,735
...you know, when the Joker
and the Riddler team up...
1144
01:12:46,946 --> 01:12:50,484
...that's incredibly, you know,
resonant and powerful.
1145
01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:54,409
The problem is that
99.9 percent of the time...
1146
01:12:54,620 --> 01:12:58,488
...the ability of the superhero
to overcome their plan...
1147
01:12:58,708 --> 01:13:03,202
...is usually hidden in the conflict
between the supervillains.
1148
01:13:03,421 --> 01:13:07,540
The supervillains, they can't get
their act together. A comic book is 22 pages.
1149
01:13:07,758 --> 01:13:11,342
They can get their act together for 19 pages,
but those last three are just, ugh...
1150
01:13:11,554 --> 01:13:12,885
...they're just falling apart.
1151
01:13:13,097 --> 01:13:17,341
I'd like to complete this transaction
with as little bloodshed as possible, Lex.
1152
01:13:17,852 --> 01:13:21,186
Now put your hands up
and have Toy Man turn us around.
1153
01:13:22,398 --> 01:13:23,763
Don't look at him, Big Boy.
1154
01:13:24,609 --> 01:13:25,849
Grodd is leader.
1155
01:13:29,447 --> 01:13:33,611
The Rogues are different. The Rogues
can come together for a common goal.
1156
01:13:33,826 --> 01:13:37,865
They're guys that seem silly at first,
but you look at somebody like Mirror Master.
1157
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:42,790
Okay, the guy can teleport through
any reflective surface, not just a mirror.
1158
01:13:43,002 --> 01:13:46,620
He can bend light, illusions.
1159
01:13:46,839 --> 01:13:49,581
He can make himself appear
in multiple places at once.
1160
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,338
I mean, there's so many very interesting things
that he can do on his own...
1161
01:13:53,554 --> 01:13:57,343
...that when you put him into a group
with other villains that are versatile...
1162
01:13:57,558 --> 01:14:02,974
...you have a really cool set
of personalities and powers.
1163
01:14:03,189 --> 01:14:06,181
Although, they do have,
you know, specific rivalries.
1164
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,062
Heat Wave and Captain Cold
don't like each other.
1165
01:14:09,278 --> 01:14:12,020
Yeah, one's hot and one's cold,
but there are reasons.
1166
01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:16,949
In our "Flash Run,"
all the Rogues...
1167
01:14:17,161 --> 01:14:20,654
...they used to have guns and wands
and mechanical devices dating back...
1168
01:14:20,873 --> 01:14:24,741
...to when they were originally created.
But we made them have superpowers...
1169
01:14:24,961 --> 01:14:26,668
...and it's because of Captain Cold.
1170
01:14:26,879 --> 01:14:29,962
He made them undergo this transformation
that gave them superpowers.
1171
01:14:30,174 --> 01:14:32,085
Well, it had negative side effects.
1172
01:14:32,301 --> 01:14:36,169
For poor Heat Wave, it burnt off
basically all the top layer of his skin...
1173
01:14:36,389 --> 01:14:41,008
...so he looks really gross and messed up, so
he hates Captain Cold for making him that way.
1174
01:14:41,227 --> 01:14:42,467
Why do they hang out together?
1175
01:14:42,687 --> 01:14:45,179
There's strength
in numbers, and Flash is fast enough...
1176
01:14:45,398 --> 01:14:47,605
...he can fight more than one person
at a time.
1177
01:14:47,817 --> 01:14:49,524
There's something about the Rogues.
1178
01:14:49,735 --> 01:14:52,352
They wanna pull their jobs,
live their lives and be alone.
1179
01:14:52,571 --> 01:14:55,188
Like, it's their job to pull off heists
and steal stuff.
1180
01:14:55,408 --> 01:14:58,901
That's how they make their living.
They consider themselves blue-collar guys.
1181
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:03,409
"Gonna pop a beer and we're gonna spend
the money we made by robbing the bank."
1182
01:15:03,624 --> 01:15:07,663
What other villains can you think about?
They pull a heist, they escape the Flash...
1183
01:15:07,878 --> 01:15:12,668
- ...and then they go to a bar to have a beer?
- The Suicide Squad is the exception to the rule.
1184
01:15:12,883 --> 01:15:16,467
And what makes it interesting is
it's a bunch of villains...
1185
01:15:16,679 --> 01:15:20,889
...who are forced by the government to go on
missions that are for the good of the people.
1186
01:15:21,100 --> 01:15:27,392
And if they fail, if they decide to try and escape,
they have devices that will kill them.
1187
01:15:27,606 --> 01:15:28,937
So they are forced to do it.
1188
01:15:29,150 --> 01:15:32,939
I think the fact that they are forced
to be heroes despite their own instincts...
1189
01:15:33,154 --> 01:15:36,772
...and that they're constantly trying to
work out ways to undermine missions...
1190
01:15:36,991 --> 01:15:40,609
...and to sometimes betray their teammates
and be villains even while they're--
1191
01:15:40,828 --> 01:15:44,617
When they're forced to do the right thing
is the reason why that team, that book...
1192
01:15:44,832 --> 01:15:51,249
- ...is always around and is always popular.
- None of their motivation is theirs.
1193
01:15:51,464 --> 01:15:56,755
They're doing the bidding
of Amanda Waller and the government.
1194
01:15:56,969 --> 01:15:59,506
Are the people
that are planting these bombs...
1195
01:15:59,722 --> 01:16:01,963
...on the backs of
the Suicide Squad members...
1196
01:16:02,183 --> 01:16:03,264
...are they the heroes?
1197
01:16:03,476 --> 01:16:05,433
You know, purportedly they are.
1198
01:16:05,644 --> 01:16:09,103
But the way they're doing it,
it really, you know comes down to...
1199
01:16:09,315 --> 01:16:11,727
...it's an extreme form of water boarding,
I think.
1200
01:16:11,942 --> 01:16:18,564
They have reason to hate their handlers,
who are supposed to be the good guys...
1201
01:16:18,783 --> 01:16:20,945
...but they're not seen that way in the books.
1202
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:26,906
So it's an interesting study
in what makes a villain and what makes a hero...
1203
01:16:27,124 --> 01:16:29,286
...because it's kind of flip-flopped
in that book.
1204
01:16:29,502 --> 01:16:34,042
They're not there to personally screw
the other guy standing next to them.
1205
01:16:34,256 --> 01:16:36,122
They are there to just survive.
1206
01:16:36,342 --> 01:16:40,802
And they are-- They don't want it
to be their suicide mission.
1207
01:16:41,013 --> 01:16:44,927
And I do think that that's of a different
and new angle.
1208
01:16:45,142 --> 01:16:47,850
Suicide Squad is successful,
because it has a rotating cast.
1209
01:16:48,062 --> 01:16:50,975
You could kill some members off.
There's always that question...
1210
01:16:51,190 --> 01:16:54,433
...of something happening to the cast
that could change the status quo.
1211
01:16:54,652 --> 01:16:57,565
There's always that anticipation
that if a mission goes wrong...
1212
01:16:57,780 --> 01:16:59,737
...somebody could actually die.
1213
01:16:59,949 --> 01:17:02,691
It's a gut-level survival instinct.
1214
01:17:02,910 --> 01:17:05,117
For the reader, you're just like:
1215
01:17:05,329 --> 01:17:08,742
"Who's gonna make it
through this mission and how?"
1216
01:17:08,958 --> 01:17:13,168
You know, and then, you know,
“Are they gonna manage to actually get free...
1217
01:17:13,379 --> 01:17:16,792
...so they can take care of Amanda Waller?"
Heh, heh, heh.
1218
01:17:17,007 --> 01:17:20,796
Sometimes it's more exciting
to find a villain that's so powerful...
1219
01:17:21,011 --> 01:17:24,003
...the combined might of an entire team
can't defeat them.
1220
01:17:24,849 --> 01:17:27,807
So the superheroes and the supervillains
have to band together...
1221
01:17:28,018 --> 01:17:29,508
...put aside their differences.
1222
01:17:29,728 --> 01:17:33,392
You always have that classic shot
where they reach out and shake hands...
1223
01:17:33,607 --> 01:17:34,972
...and, like, "Let's team up."
1224
01:17:35,192 --> 01:17:37,433
And, to me,
that's like the ultimate odd couple.
1225
01:17:37,653 --> 01:17:41,442
The problem is though that there aren't
that many of those kinds of villains.
1226
01:17:41,657 --> 01:17:46,652
So it's always a challenge to find one villain
powerful enough to take out all of them.
1227
01:17:46,871 --> 01:17:49,579
It's interesting that someone
like Lex Luthor could do it...
1228
01:17:49,790 --> 01:17:52,077
...just because he has the skill
to out-think them.
1229
01:17:52,293 --> 01:17:56,708
So it isn't always power.
Sometimes it's that X-factor.
1230
01:17:56,922 --> 01:18:00,165
But if you can manage
to do the right storyline...
1231
01:18:00,384 --> 01:18:04,093
...again, it can be a lot of fun
and a really great challenge.
1232
01:18:04,305 --> 01:18:07,138
I'm not here to challenge you, Darkseid.
Quite the contrary.
1233
01:18:07,349 --> 01:18:12,264
I've got something you want.
The only thing you want.
1234
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:14,265
People can identify with that...
1235
01:18:14,481 --> 01:18:20,147
...because when we're faced
with something that endangers...
1236
01:18:20,362 --> 01:18:21,648
...our way of life...
1237
01:18:21,864 --> 01:18:24,026
...we can set aside our differences
and work together.
1238
01:18:29,788 --> 01:18:33,406
A fine line exists between a hero and villain.
1239
01:18:33,626 --> 01:18:36,038
And sometimes the line is crossed.
1240
01:18:36,253 --> 01:18:38,915
In essence, the hero becomes the villain.
1241
01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:43,466
But when a hero loses their way,
is salvation possible?
1242
01:18:43,677 --> 01:18:47,966
One of the great classic stories of literature...
1243
01:18:48,182 --> 01:18:51,391
...is the drama of the good man goes bad.
1244
01:18:51,602 --> 01:18:55,186
What is it that can happen to us
that puts us through...
1245
01:18:55,397 --> 01:19:01,734
...a set of circumstances that drives us
to do something we don't morally believe in?
1246
01:19:01,946 --> 01:19:03,277
That's a powerful tale.
1247
01:19:03,489 --> 01:19:08,825
Trying to turn a hero, you have to actually
figure out how to affect their moral center.
1248
01:19:09,036 --> 01:19:12,495
It's in the face of a planet being blown up,
a city being blown up...
1249
01:19:12,706 --> 01:19:15,414
...or a wife or a lover dying.
1250
01:19:16,794 --> 01:19:23,666
And the idea that "I wasn't strong enough,
I wasn't powerful enough and perhaps...
1251
01:19:23,884 --> 01:19:26,592
...me doing the right thing or being a hero
was the problem.
1252
01:19:26,804 --> 01:19:30,422
If I'd been more vicious, if I'd been more brutal,
I could have changed things."
1253
01:19:30,641 --> 01:19:37,479
I think every great turn of a hero
to a villain, it comes from that.
1254
01:19:37,690 --> 01:19:43,060
In Injustice, the storyline
is that the Joker has killed Lois...
1255
01:19:43,279 --> 01:19:48,274
...and it's not just Lois' death that drives
Superman to almost a level of insanity...
1256
01:19:48,492 --> 01:19:50,824
...but the fact that Lois
was carrying his child...
1257
01:19:51,036 --> 01:19:54,119
...and so it has double significance
and impact on him.
1258
01:19:54,873 --> 01:19:55,908
That's enough.
1259
01:19:59,670 --> 01:20:02,287
At that point,
he kind of loses his frame of reference...
1260
01:20:02,506 --> 01:20:04,998
...and decides to create
almost a totalitarian state...
1261
01:20:05,217 --> 01:20:08,380
...where he's the ultimate authority.
So again in his mind...
1262
01:20:08,595 --> 01:20:12,839
...he is trying to prevent what happened
to Lois and his unborn child...
1263
01:20:13,058 --> 01:20:15,140
...from happening in the world
by becoming...
1264
01:20:15,352 --> 01:20:17,559
...you know, the enlightened dictator.
1265
01:20:17,771 --> 01:20:20,980
But, you know,
you see sort of the holes in logic of that.
1266
01:20:21,191 --> 01:20:24,980
You know, ultimately,
you are creating a greater evil...
1267
01:20:25,195 --> 01:20:28,563
...by trying to do
some small sense of good.
1268
01:20:28,782 --> 01:20:32,116
There have been a few stories where
heroes go villainous for some time...
1269
01:20:32,328 --> 01:20:36,367
...and I think probably the most famous one
is Hal Jordan when Coast City...
1270
01:20:36,582 --> 01:20:38,493
...the city he called home, was attacked.
1271
01:20:38,709 --> 01:20:42,293
And many people were killed and destroyed
and he wanted to bring them back.
1272
01:20:42,504 --> 01:20:45,838
And he went to the Guardians
and said, "Give me this power so I can do it."
1273
01:20:46,050 --> 01:20:48,382
And they said no,
and he ultimately killed them...
1274
01:20:48,594 --> 01:20:50,130
...and became--
1275
01:20:50,346 --> 01:20:52,804
Went crazy, became this big villain
in the DC universe.
1276
01:20:53,015 --> 01:20:56,974
You know, they say that power corrupts
and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
1277
01:20:57,186 --> 01:21:00,474
Usually when a hero falls from grace
it's because they've succumbed...
1278
01:21:00,689 --> 01:21:04,307
...to their own power,
like when Hal Jordan became Parallax.
1279
01:21:04,526 --> 01:21:07,439
It was Hal Jordan overreaching...
1280
01:21:07,654 --> 01:21:12,649
...and trying to use his power as
the Green Lantern to recreate an entire city...
1281
01:21:12,868 --> 01:21:15,155
...and he kept wanting
more and more power.
1282
01:21:15,371 --> 01:21:18,033
And he basically got corrupted
by his own...
1283
01:21:18,248 --> 01:21:20,330
You know, by his own super power.
1284
01:21:20,542 --> 01:21:25,127
And I think that is usually the path down--
You know, down darkness.
1285
01:21:25,339 --> 01:21:27,296
Through becoming the Spectre...
1286
01:21:27,508 --> 01:21:30,842
...and ultimately becoming Green Lantern again
he found redemption.
1287
01:21:31,053 --> 01:21:35,672
But it took years and it was a great
hero's journey that we got to witness.
1288
01:21:35,891 --> 01:21:39,634
Hal Jordan was always about
overcoming fear and I thought, "Well...
1289
01:21:39,853 --> 01:21:43,892
...if he's all about overcoming fear,
there's gotta be a moment that he gave in to fear.
1290
01:21:44,108 --> 01:21:47,100
When was that weakness?"
That weak point was when he was worried...
1291
01:21:47,319 --> 01:21:50,277
...something else was gonna happen
once Coast City was destroyed.
1292
01:21:50,489 --> 01:21:53,732
And in that moment,
he let fear kind of take hold of his heart.
1293
01:21:53,951 --> 01:21:56,613
That's when Sinestro unleashed Parallax,
who was this--
1294
01:21:56,829 --> 01:22:01,448
We created this entity of terror that could
possess his soul and corrupt his body.
1295
01:22:01,667 --> 01:22:04,284
And essentially turn him into Parallax.
1296
01:22:04,503 --> 01:22:09,122
And by having Hal still make a mistake
and give in to fear...
1297
01:22:09,341 --> 01:22:12,379
...it was still on point
and gave him a point of failure.
1298
01:22:12,594 --> 01:22:13,800
But at the same time...
1299
01:22:14,012 --> 01:22:17,721
...adding Parallax allowed
for an easier redemption.
1300
01:22:17,933 --> 01:22:20,015
And so if a hero does cross the line...
1301
01:22:20,227 --> 01:22:23,686
...does he just go back to work the next day?
The idea was no.
1302
01:22:23,897 --> 01:22:27,356
It was a 10-year problem for him.
1303
01:22:27,568 --> 01:22:32,813
Comic books, by, I think, their basic nature
is about wish fulfillment.
1304
01:22:33,031 --> 01:22:37,116
Therefore, the concept of second chances...
1305
01:22:38,287 --> 01:22:43,407
...is actually built into the very concept
of the type of material we do.
1306
01:22:43,625 --> 01:22:48,119
So the idea that a hero
or a villain could be redeemed...
1307
01:22:48,338 --> 01:22:52,047
...is exactly what comics have to be about.
1308
01:22:52,259 --> 01:22:55,718
We can take bad and turn it good.
1309
01:22:55,929 --> 01:22:58,296
And we can make good even better.
1310
01:22:58,515 --> 01:23:03,385
And that's what comics
and fantasy storytelling is all about.
1311
01:23:03,604 --> 01:23:08,019
Cry for Justice began with a bunch
of heroes trying to track down Prometheus.
1312
01:23:08,233 --> 01:23:12,067
Prometheus has actually taken
the identity of one of the heroes.
1313
01:23:12,279 --> 01:23:16,193
So he actually is amongst them
the entire time.
1314
01:23:16,408 --> 01:23:17,648
At the end of it...
1315
01:23:17,868 --> 01:23:20,951
...Prometheus has worked out a way
to destroy most of Star City...
1316
01:23:21,163 --> 01:23:25,282
...which is Green Arrow's home.
1317
01:23:25,501 --> 01:23:28,209
He also maims Arsenal...
1318
01:23:28,420 --> 01:23:32,789
...and then ultimately Arsenal's
daughter is killed.
1319
01:23:33,383 --> 01:23:36,091
What happens at the very end
is the one moderate person...
1320
01:23:36,303 --> 01:23:41,218
...Green Arrow, then tracks down Prometheus
on his own and executes him.
1321
01:23:41,433 --> 01:23:46,678
And that then led to a long arc for Green Arrow
where he had to redeem himself.
1322
01:23:46,897 --> 01:23:49,685
Green Arrow crossed the line
and took the life of a villain.
1323
01:23:49,900 --> 01:23:52,858
He did not just come back
from that adventure...
1324
01:23:53,070 --> 01:23:56,358
...and say, "Oh, well,
I'm never gonna kill people again."
1325
01:23:56,573 --> 01:23:59,361
He had a mental breakdown,
and we did a year...
1326
01:23:59,576 --> 01:24:03,035
...a year and a half long story
where he lost it.
1327
01:24:03,247 --> 01:24:08,742
And it was to show that there's
consequences for this kind of stuff.
1328
01:24:08,961 --> 01:24:15,173
I do think that in modern comics,
it's okay for the heroes to fail.
1329
01:24:15,384 --> 01:24:18,217
You just got to have it mean something.
1330
01:24:18,428 --> 01:24:20,920
And not just teach them something...
1331
01:24:21,139 --> 01:24:26,509
...but have them suffer
because they did something wrong.
1332
01:24:26,728 --> 01:24:30,972
Taking someone's life, you take away
all they're gonna have and ever will be.
1333
01:24:31,191 --> 01:24:34,809
And it stays with you even if you
do it for the right and proper thing.
1334
01:24:35,028 --> 01:24:38,862
So, you know, killing in comics is--
When the hero pulls the trigger...
1335
01:24:39,074 --> 01:24:42,567
...I think it's not done a lot,
but I think when it's done...
1336
01:24:42,786 --> 01:24:45,528
...it has to be done in a real big way...
1337
01:24:45,747 --> 01:24:48,830
...that has an emotional punch
to the hero's psyche and soul.
1338
01:24:49,042 --> 01:24:52,000
After we've witnessed such heinous crimes...
1339
01:24:52,212 --> 01:24:54,954
...after we've experienced firsthand...
1340
01:24:55,173 --> 01:25:00,634
...pure evil in the face of villainy,
can the evildoer be redeemed?
1341
01:25:00,846 --> 01:25:05,261
In this comic book world
where heroes often get second chances...
1342
01:25:05,475 --> 01:25:08,137
...can the villain ever be forgiven?
1343
01:25:08,353 --> 01:25:12,938
It's a lot harder to figure out
how somebody who spent years...
1344
01:25:13,150 --> 01:25:16,233
...taking what they wanted, killing people...
1345
01:25:16,445 --> 01:25:21,235
...whatever set of misdeeds
will suddenly turn around...
1346
01:25:21,450 --> 01:25:26,786
...and find God and become moral
the rest of their lives.
1347
01:25:26,997 --> 01:25:28,032
Does it happen?
1348
01:25:28,248 --> 01:25:32,458
Probably does in reality,
but it's a real tough story to tell.
1349
01:25:32,669 --> 01:25:37,835
Black Adam is an interesting character.
He was chosen by the wizard Shazam...
1350
01:25:38,050 --> 01:25:42,009
...given powers back in
the ancient Egyptian days.
1351
01:25:42,220 --> 01:25:45,087
He was a slave in Kahndaq.
1352
01:25:45,307 --> 01:25:48,641
He took these powers, became Black Adam,
the champion, and he was a hero.
1353
01:25:48,852 --> 01:25:50,934
And over time,
he was corrupted by that power.
1354
01:25:51,146 --> 01:25:54,935
He went back to Kahndaq and he said,
“I'm leading Kahndaq now, you are free.
1355
01:25:55,150 --> 01:25:59,394
I'm here." And then he found someone
he fell in love with. Isis was born...
1356
01:25:59,613 --> 01:26:04,232
...and then Isis' brother Osiris. Like,
we kind of created a Black Adam family.
1357
01:26:05,243 --> 01:26:09,282
And then that family was torn apart
and they were killed.
1358
01:26:09,498 --> 01:26:14,334
And Isis, who had been such a great presence
for Adam, who had preached peace.
1359
01:26:14,544 --> 01:26:20,165
As she's dying in his arms,
the last words she says is, "Avenge us."
1360
01:26:20,384 --> 01:26:22,671
And that sends Black Adam off.
1361
01:26:22,886 --> 01:26:26,129
And he kills an entire country out of rage.
1362
01:26:26,348 --> 01:26:29,466
And, obviously,
hard to redeem somebody after that.
1363
01:26:29,685 --> 01:26:32,768
He believes in doing the right thing.
1364
01:26:32,979 --> 01:26:36,893
He just goes about it in such a barbaric
and awful way.
1365
01:26:37,109 --> 01:26:42,445
Pete Tomasi wrote a fantastic story wrapped
around a character everybody should hate.
1366
01:26:42,656 --> 01:26:47,696
And made him--
You know, made him a hero...
1367
01:26:47,911 --> 01:26:50,448
...in a very--
You know, from a very villainous past.
1368
01:26:50,664 --> 01:26:53,406
It's a weird spot to be in when
you're a writer, when you have to say:
1369
01:26:53,625 --> 01:26:57,289
"I committed genocide,
but I have to make this character relatable...
1370
01:26:57,504 --> 01:27:01,372
...and in a weird way have people understand
where he was coming from at that point."
1371
01:27:01,591 --> 01:27:04,879
So it's a tough line to walk
when you're a writer writing a character...
1372
01:27:05,095 --> 01:27:07,712
...who's as three-dimensional
as Black Adam...
1373
01:27:07,931 --> 01:27:11,299
...because he really is one of those
great three-dimensional characters...
1374
01:27:11,518 --> 01:27:15,182
...that you could horribly understand
why he does something.
1375
01:27:15,397 --> 01:27:18,890
With villains, though,
when you try and turn them into heroes...
1376
01:27:19,109 --> 01:27:23,194
...they can lose their...
What makes them special.
1377
01:27:23,405 --> 01:27:27,194
So it's a very rare case
where a villain is better as a hero.
1378
01:27:27,409 --> 01:27:31,573
Most of the time most readers just can't wait
for them to be villainous again.
1379
01:27:31,788 --> 01:27:33,825
When we worked on Dark Knight Returns...
1380
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:36,452
...where we have Doctor Wolper...
1381
01:27:36,668 --> 01:27:39,877
...trying to bring the Joker back
and trying to work with him...
1382
01:27:40,088 --> 01:27:42,455
...and now Doctor Wolper also
has an enormous ego.
1383
01:27:42,674 --> 01:27:45,757
And so you've got Joker's ego,
Wolper's ego.
1384
01:27:45,969 --> 01:27:48,882
It doesn't work out well.
It doesn't work out well for Wolper.
1385
01:27:50,807 --> 01:27:53,515
But the Joker absolutely
was all about:
1386
01:27:53,727 --> 01:27:58,187
"I am rehabilitated. I'm here.
I've seen the error of my ways."
1387
01:27:58,398 --> 01:28:02,232
And he really just used that as a matter
to get himself out of Arkham...
1388
01:28:02,444 --> 01:28:04,435
...so he could commit tremendous crimes.
1389
01:28:04,654 --> 01:28:08,693
I think some of them can be redeemed,
but I think what you gotta do...
1390
01:28:08,909 --> 01:28:12,402
...is you gotta dangle the sense of redemption
in front of them then rip it away.
1391
01:28:12,621 --> 01:28:15,113
Ultimately, you show
why they were a villain in the first place.
1392
01:28:21,338 --> 01:28:27,880
As society continues
to evolve, so too do our villains.
1393
01:28:28,512 --> 01:28:30,844
In September of 2011...
1394
01:28:31,056 --> 01:28:34,139
...DC relaunched its entire line of comics...
1395
01:28:34,351 --> 01:28:36,809
...dubbed The New 52.
1396
01:28:37,020 --> 01:28:39,557
Two years ago,
relaunched the DC universe.
1397
01:28:39,773 --> 01:28:43,687
We called that The New 52 and it was
basically a soft reset of the universe...
1398
01:28:43,902 --> 01:28:47,145
...where we basically fixed the things
that we felt weren't working...
1399
01:28:47,364 --> 01:28:49,526
...and kept going with the things
that were.
1400
01:28:49,741 --> 01:28:53,609
We sat down and thought about: "What do we
need more of in the DC universe?"
1401
01:28:53,829 --> 01:28:57,322
And one of the things that we wanted
to address was the villains.
1402
01:28:57,541 --> 01:29:02,126
What is villainy to us in 2013?
What is real evil in 2013?
1403
01:29:02,337 --> 01:29:06,331
It's horrendous, right? And sometimes
if you get too close to the reality of it...
1404
01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:08,336
...it takes you out of the comic book.
1405
01:29:08,552 --> 01:29:11,294
So using super villains as metaphors
for whatever that is...
1406
01:29:11,513 --> 01:29:15,928
...and for the brutal attacks that they do,
it's gotten darker. It's darker. And it's scarier.
1407
01:29:16,142 --> 01:29:19,180
And the attacks come without notice
sometimes and they're personal.
1408
01:29:19,396 --> 01:29:22,639
I think that's because
we live in a very, sort of, fearful time.
1409
01:29:22,858 --> 01:29:25,190
Ever since 9/11, the world's been on edge...
1410
01:29:25,402 --> 01:29:28,394
...and no one knows
when the next shoe is gonna drop.
1411
01:29:28,613 --> 01:29:32,982
Is it gonna be a tsunami?
Is it gonna be economic collapse?
1412
01:29:33,201 --> 01:29:36,193
Villains that sort of embody
that sense of unpredictability...
1413
01:29:36,413 --> 01:29:40,702
...that sense of, you know, doom can come
in any form and at any time.
1414
01:29:40,917 --> 01:29:43,500
I think that speaks
to everyone's sort of hidden fears.
1415
01:29:43,712 --> 01:29:48,502
Instead of characters of good and evil,
it became about characters of order and chaos.
1416
01:29:48,717 --> 01:29:50,708
It became about anarchy.
1417
01:29:50,927 --> 01:29:54,465
We are artists and we're trying to reflect
what's going on in the world.
1418
01:29:54,681 --> 01:29:57,548
That's what all art does. It's a mirror.
1419
01:29:57,976 --> 01:30:02,061
While DC's rogues' gallery
of villains is already enormous...
1420
01:30:02,272 --> 01:30:06,015
...there's always room for a little more evil.
1421
01:30:06,234 --> 01:30:10,273
With the advent of The New 52,
the heroes of the DC universe...
1422
01:30:10,488 --> 01:30:13,105
...must face new threats and adversaries.
1423
01:30:13,325 --> 01:30:18,195
I have a strange belief
about the way one proceeds with comics...
1424
01:30:18,413 --> 01:30:21,872
...is to using old characters
and introducing new characters.
1425
01:30:22,083 --> 01:30:25,621
My belief is if you're gonna use
one or two old characters...
1426
01:30:25,837 --> 01:30:27,874
...you have to introduce a new one.
1427
01:30:28,089 --> 01:30:33,960
I don't think we should ever be so content
to keep riding on the same horse.
1428
01:30:34,179 --> 01:30:38,138
If the hero has to survive
for 16, 20, 30 years...
1429
01:30:38,350 --> 01:30:41,388
...you wanna know all
the different aspects of that character...
1430
01:30:41,603 --> 01:30:45,471
...and the villain will make them face
certain parts about themselves...
1431
01:30:45,690 --> 01:30:48,102
...that on their own...
1432
01:30:48,318 --> 01:30:51,982
...they may not even think about
or can come up in a storyline.
1433
01:30:52,197 --> 01:30:55,815
A villain will find that, because they're
always trying to find something new...
1434
01:30:56,034 --> 01:30:58,321
...to use against the hero...
1435
01:30:58,536 --> 01:31:00,948
...which makes you explore
your hero even more.
1436
01:31:01,164 --> 01:31:06,125
The goal of any villain
is to challenge our hero, right?
1437
01:31:06,336 --> 01:31:09,169
Not to challenge them
but to take them to the ragged edge...
1438
01:31:09,381 --> 01:31:11,418
...of his existence in every way.
1439
01:31:11,633 --> 01:31:15,001
The idea is to try and think about
what the character is most afraid of...
1440
01:31:15,220 --> 01:31:17,837
...at that particular moment
in his or her life, the hero...
1441
01:31:18,056 --> 01:31:20,423
...then create a villain
that comes right at that thing.
1442
01:31:20,642 --> 01:31:23,304
So for "Court of Owls,"
that story was really about...
1443
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:26,228
...you know, a moment when Batman
was on top of the world.
1444
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:29,056
He felt very confident in Gotham
and it made me realize...
1445
01:31:29,275 --> 01:31:33,018
...Batman might think he knows the city
but he can't know the history of the city.
1446
01:31:33,238 --> 01:31:37,573
He can't know everything about it. So what
if the city itself begins to come at him saying:
1447
01:31:37,784 --> 01:31:40,401
"You don't know me that well."
With the Court of Owls...
1448
01:31:40,620 --> 01:31:45,330
...they're this group buried and layered into
the past of the city in ways that are scary to him.
1449
01:31:45,542 --> 01:31:47,203
He doesn't believe they exist at all.
1450
01:31:47,419 --> 01:31:50,252
Then he sees that they actually
have nests for their Talons...
1451
01:31:50,463 --> 01:31:53,546
...inside Wayne buildings
and then in the penultimate scene...
1452
01:31:53,758 --> 01:31:56,045
...he realizes that
the person behind the story...
1453
01:31:56,261 --> 01:31:58,798
...is actually someone who claims to be
a Wayne himself.
1454
01:31:59,014 --> 01:32:02,473
The Guardians of the Universe
were characters that they're ancient beings...
1455
01:32:02,684 --> 01:32:05,642
...that divorced themselves
from emotion a long time ago.
1456
01:32:05,854 --> 01:32:07,470
They thought emotion was dangerous.
1457
01:32:07,689 --> 01:32:10,056
They say the law is supposed
to be devoid of emotion.
1458
01:32:10,275 --> 01:32:13,734
The First Lantern is the being
who got the first ring...
1459
01:32:13,945 --> 01:32:18,360
...who was there to witness the divorcing
of the Guardians and their emotional hearts.
1460
01:32:18,575 --> 01:32:21,442
And he took that emotional power
for himself.
1461
01:32:21,661 --> 01:32:23,197
And he had changed who he was...
1462
01:32:23,413 --> 01:32:26,531
...and the Guardians locked him away
like they did their emotions.
1463
01:32:26,750 --> 01:32:31,745
The First Lantern is a metaphor for all the
pent up emotion the Guardians have buried.
1464
01:32:31,963 --> 01:32:34,500
And that First Lantern is now free.
1465
01:32:34,716 --> 01:32:37,834
At one point, the First Lantern says--
As he's got them captured...
1466
01:32:38,053 --> 01:32:41,546
...he's turned the tables and he says,
“I'm gonna change this universe now.
1467
01:32:41,765 --> 01:32:44,757
But before I do,
I want you to have your emotions back.
1468
01:32:44,976 --> 01:32:46,466
I want you to feel this."
1469
01:32:46,686 --> 01:32:49,348
The Guardians,
for the first time in billions of years...
1470
01:32:49,564 --> 01:32:52,272
...have their emotions back
and they feel shame and fear...
1471
01:32:52,484 --> 01:32:55,977
...and horror about what they've done
and what they've become...
1472
01:32:56,196 --> 01:32:57,652
...which I really enjoyed.
1473
01:32:57,864 --> 01:33:00,401
And then that's right before
Sinestro wipes them out.
1474
01:33:01,993 --> 01:33:05,611
When I got into Aquaman and I was
launching Aquaman for The New 52...
1475
01:33:05,830 --> 01:33:08,117
...my attitude was he wants to be on land.
1476
01:33:08,333 --> 01:33:13,203
So he made a conscious decision in issue one,
"My life is on land here."
1477
01:33:13,421 --> 01:33:17,540
And I wanted to have something that
was gonna drag him back into the ocean.
1478
01:33:17,759 --> 01:33:23,971
So we created-- Ivan Reis and I created
this race of sea creatures...
1479
01:33:24,182 --> 01:33:26,423
...humanoid sea creatures,
man-eating creatures...
1480
01:33:26,643 --> 01:33:30,307
...that were starving and from the trench
and they had eaten all their food...
1481
01:33:30,522 --> 01:33:31,728
...and they were coming up.
1482
01:33:31,940 --> 01:33:34,227
They come up out of the ocean
and attack a town...
1483
01:33:34,442 --> 01:33:36,900
...and Aquaman gets involved
with that attack...
1484
01:33:37,112 --> 01:33:38,773
...and has to go back into the water.
1485
01:33:38,988 --> 01:33:41,776
What Aquaman doesn't know
is they're actually another kingdom.
1486
01:33:41,991 --> 01:33:46,906
They're actually another underwater
kingdom that is one of many, with Atlantis.
1487
01:33:47,205 --> 01:33:49,742
Although it was spawned from comics...
1488
01:33:49,958 --> 01:33:53,246
...the DC universe isn't limited
to panels and pages.
1489
01:33:53,461 --> 01:34:00,379
It has expanded to include all forms of media
and given its villains new worlds to explore.
1490
01:34:00,593 --> 01:34:02,675
DC Comics isn't just comics, you know?
1491
01:34:02,887 --> 01:34:05,845
It starts in the comics,
all the characters come from the comics.
1492
01:34:06,057 --> 01:34:08,014
But then they explode into everything else.
1493
01:34:08,226 --> 01:34:12,220
If it wasn't for these amazingly rich
and complex and multilayered villains...
1494
01:34:12,438 --> 01:34:16,397
...that we had to craft our stories around
and what is driving you through the story...
1495
01:34:16,609 --> 01:34:21,024
...what is pushing Batman,
you know, to push his limits...
1496
01:34:21,239 --> 01:34:24,106
...to get to the end of the game
is ultimately the plan...
1497
01:34:24,325 --> 01:34:27,238
...and the storytelling
around the villain...
1498
01:34:27,453 --> 01:34:31,993
...and the villains' interactions with each other
as they all try to take down Batman.
1499
01:34:32,208 --> 01:34:36,543
You had your shot, Deathstroke,
but you're not the only assassin in town.
1500
01:34:37,714 --> 01:34:41,332
There is such rich material here
and such deep, amazing characters...
1501
01:34:41,551 --> 01:34:44,964
...that have such long history
and love from the fans...
1502
01:34:45,180 --> 01:34:48,389
...for 50, 60, 70 years that we wanna
tell great stories in our games.
1503
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:51,092
We don't want it to just be about
the gameplay and cool visuals.
1504
01:34:51,311 --> 01:34:53,518
There's gotta be the meat there
of a great story.
1505
01:34:53,730 --> 01:34:58,395
To me, it was a lot of fun to see that because
it explores the world of these characters...
1506
01:34:58,610 --> 01:35:03,320
...and it doesn't just give you
one flavor month in, month out.
1507
01:35:03,531 --> 01:35:08,116
The future, including
the upcoming Forever Evil comic event...
1508
01:35:08,328 --> 01:35:13,073
...will continue to emphasize the villains
and their many diabolical deeds.
1509
01:35:13,291 --> 01:35:19,458
As DC celebrates its villainy,
we're doing the first New 52 event series.
1510
01:35:19,672 --> 01:35:22,790
I'm writing it. David Finch is drawing it.
It's called Forever Evil.
1511
01:35:23,009 --> 01:35:26,047
And the context of this
is the Justice League is dead.
1512
01:35:26,262 --> 01:35:30,096
The villains have inherited the earth.
They've been killed by the Crime Syndicate.
1513
01:35:30,308 --> 01:35:35,144
So we create an event that now carries on
throughout the rest of 2013 and 2014...
1514
01:35:35,355 --> 01:35:36,937
...that's all about the villains.
1515
01:35:37,148 --> 01:35:42,484
And when we looked at the whole lineup
of characters, it really came down to:
1516
01:35:42,695 --> 01:35:45,187
Why does this character exist
in the DC universe?
1517
01:35:45,406 --> 01:35:48,194
What role does this character fill?
1518
01:35:48,409 --> 01:35:52,869
How do we show that function through
story, through character development?
1519
01:35:53,081 --> 01:35:57,200
Seeing all the villains
manifest themselves in animation...
1520
01:35:57,418 --> 01:36:02,834
...and television and film and videogames
from the comic books, that's...
1521
01:36:03,049 --> 01:36:07,213
I mean, that's the true power
and testament to the characters themselves.
1522
01:36:07,428 --> 01:36:10,466
The supervillains of DC Comics...
1523
01:36:10,682 --> 01:36:15,051
...come in all manners
of shapes, sizes, personalities...
1524
01:36:15,270 --> 01:36:19,605
...dark recesses and eccentricities.
1525
01:36:19,816 --> 01:36:24,310
They conquer worlds, eradicate cities
and terrorize the innocent...
1526
01:36:24,529 --> 01:36:27,317
...all while fighting the hero.
1527
01:36:27,532 --> 01:36:32,277
And it's this bond between villain
and hero that is inseverabie...
1528
01:36:32,495 --> 01:36:36,955
"unbreakable, a fusion of soul,
a sense of feeling...
1529
01:36:37,166 --> 01:36:41,330
...a deeply rooted connection
that cannot be extricated.
1530
01:36:41,546 --> 01:36:45,756
Theirs is a war of intellect, of strength...
1531
01:36:45,967 --> 01:36:52,930
...of darkness and intertwined fate
and destiny to keep doing battle.
1532
01:36:53,933 --> 01:36:57,267
They can't give up on each other.
1533
01:36:57,478 --> 01:37:00,470
Without the hero, there is no villain.
1534
01:37:00,690 --> 01:37:04,684
Without a villain, there can be no hero.
150610
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