All language subtitles for The.Conversation.2022.720p.WEBRip.x264.AAC-[YTS.MX]

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(soft orchestral music)

(orchestral music)

- Archbishop Stepinac, welcome.

- Archbishop Stepinac, welcome.

Is that how you prefer
to be addressed?

- It's just Archbishop.

- It's just Archbishop.

- Aloysius.

- That's much better.

Josip.

- Aloysius.

- We finally meet.

Please have a seat.

How rude of me?

This is comrade
Vladimir Bakaric,

the President of our
Executive Council of Croatia.

the President of our
Executive Council of Croatia.

I've been traveling all
across this great land of ours,

I've been traveling all
across this great land of ours,

as we've liberate it.

How great to be on her.

You smoke?

- No.

- No.

- Catholics are
allowed to smoke, yes?

- Yes.

- Oh, that's right.

It's Muslim who can't.

- They're not allowed
to drink alcohol either.

- They're not allowed
to drink alcohol either.

- They don't know what
they're missing, do they?

You drink?

No?
- On occasion,

No?
- On occasion,

- A son of a winemaker
surely has a glass of wine

now and then.

Tell me during mass,

Tell me during mass,

do you really take a sip of wine

or is it just water
to fool the masses?

- It is real wine.

- He won, the bastard.

I was certain that you'd
be one to stick with water.

I was certain that you'd
be one to stick with water.

- And what did he win?

- Another week among the living.

- Another week among the living.

And a bottle of whiskey
given to me by the Yugs.

And a bottle of whiskey
given to me by the Yugs.

You see no one believed in us.

And now that we've
prevailed in the war,

the west and the
east just adore us.

the west and the
east just adore us.

So we have vodka from
Moscow, whiskey from America,

So we have vodka from
Moscow, whiskey from America,

cigars from Cuba,
chocolates for Belgium.

Please have as many
as you like, I won't tell.

Please have as many
as you like, I won't tell.

- Thank you, but no.

- A man of principal.

Did the church
teach you discipline

or was it being a soldier?

- Life did.

- Aloysius, you can relax.

Only the worst things
they say about me are true.

I wanted to meet you in person.

I'm glad you came.

It's always better to
discuss important matters

It's always better to
discuss important matters

face-to-face don't you think?

- Yes.

- So my suggestion is
that the two of us talk first

- So my suggestion is
that the two of us talk first

one-on-one and then my
colleagues can join us,
everyone.

Please have a seat.

Please have a seat.

I like to hear
information firsthand.

I like to hear
information firsthand.

That's the kind of person I am.

Everybody talks,
and the truth is filtered.

Eye to eye, we can
wash away any doubts

Eye to eye, we can
wash away any doubts

we may have about one another.

Can't I offer you anything?

Now that we're alone, can
I tempt you with a whiskey?

- Thank you for
your tempting offer.

But the answer is still no.

But the answer is still no.

- How about a snack?

We have a wonderful kitchen,

the best chef in
town at our disposal.

He can make us whatever we want.

He can make us whatever we want.

- Thank you.

- Another no.

Very well, I hope
that's the last no

that you gave me tonight.

that you gave me tonight.

- And that depends.

- [Josip] On?

- What it is you're offering.

- Believe it or not, I
wanted to be a waiter

when I was a boy.

Life show me become a locksmith.

Life show me become a locksmith.

Ordinary people work
very hard to get by.

- Then decadence comes
easy and now that you have it,

- Then decadence comes
easy and now that you have it,

as you say, at your disposal?

- We can't pretend not to
enjoy the good side of life

- We can't pretend not to
enjoy the good side of life

when it's offered, can we?

- And what is good to
you may not be to me

or to someone else.

- And you Aloysius,
you're lying to yourself.

- And you Aloysius,
you're lying to yourself.

There's not a
working man out there

who refuse what
I've just offered you.

who refuse what
I've just offered you.

- A man can easily be
tented, if his belief is weak.

- That's the one thing
they said about you.

- That's the one thing
they said about you.

Stepinac is many things,

the courage of his
convictions is unshaken.

the courage of his
convictions is unshaken.

I wanted to serve you.

Tito waiting on the Archbishop,

imagine when people would say.

imagine when people would say.

- That there is hope even for
those who may seem hopeless.

- Yes, that may
very well be the case.

- Yes, that may
very well be the case.

- God never turns
his back on us.

Even when we turn
our back on him.

- Where do you think God goes

- Where do you think God goes

when war rages and
innocent lives are lost?

Is that a time when
God goes on vacation.

Is that a time when
God goes on vacation.

- To love it, to hate
those are the options.

God grants us those options,
and we choose is up to us.

God grants us those options,
and we choose is up to us.

- So war is a choice.

- Sometimes it's unavoidable.

- Sometimes it's unavoidable.

People easily swayed.

They shouldn't be, but
the temptation to have

more of everything prevailed
and we lose ourselves.

more of everything prevailed
and we lose ourselves.

- Swayed.

The church is fairly successful
in swaying the masses.

The church is fairly successful
in swaying the masses.

Where do you think
politics got their ideas

from people in
your line of work?

- What I do is a
calling not work.

- What I do is a
calling not work.

- I'd still call it work.

And I'd still
subscribed to the idea

that God must be on vacation,

allowing man to become
more of what he is, a rat

allowing man to become
more of what he is, a rat

with a boundless desire
to horde and destroy.

Does smoke bother you.

- No, it doesn't.

- No, it doesn't.

- I can't go very long
without cigarettes and a drink.

- I can't go very long
without cigarettes and a drink.

It's a weakness,
I know a bad one.

They taught me how
to roll them in Russia,

every single cigarette I
smoke, I roll them myself.

every single cigarette I
smoke, I roll them myself.

If I ever stopped smoking,

I'd miss rolling these things
more than smoking them.

I'd miss rolling these things
more than smoking them.

Do you have a weakness?

- I'm sure you know
that better than me.

- I'm sure you know
that better than me.

- A life of abstinence.

That's a breeding ground for
any number of weaknesses.

We do have to give up our
most basic needs in the
Partisans.

Four years of hunger,
thirst, exhaustion,

Four years of hunger,
thirst, exhaustion,

tramping through
the forest, the plains,

tramping through
the forest, the plains,

sleeping just a few
hours if any days on end.

It got so cold that I closed
my eyes, think this is it,

I never see the
light of day again.

I never see the
light of day again.

(eerie music)

(eerie music)

But I endured.

But I endured.

That's why nowadays I
can perhaps forgive myself

my weaknesses, because
I think I earned them.

my weaknesses, because
I think I earned them.

There's a beauty in
enduring, don't you think.

- There's beauty
in the survival.

- Yeah, but it seems
to me that to endure

- Yeah, but it seems
to me that to endure

has become synonymous
with people born in this region.

Something to be proud of.

Something to be proud of.

- You too are
recruit like myself.

- But I don't let it define me.

Besides we creating
a new Yugoslavia

one that'll be more just a place

where we can forget
petty differences,

where together we can
work for the common goal,

where together we can
work for the common goal,

equality of opportunity for all.

- Yugoslavia failed.

- Failed because it was
ruled by a monarchy.

- Failed because it was
ruled by a monarchy.

- It failed because the
differences prevailed,

you want to replace one
decadence with a new one.

- What comrade Stalin is doing,

- What comrade Stalin is doing,

what I'm doing is revolutionary.

It's a new world, a rebirth.

It's a new world, a rebirth.

- If you had to put a
dog, a rabbit, a donkey

and a snake into a cage,

and a snake into a cage,

could you imagine
they could co-exist

without someone getting bitten?

- That depends.

- [Aloysius] On what?

- [Aloysius] On what?

- On how deadly
the snake's venom is.

- That's not what I asked.

- I understood you very well.

Yes, there is a risk of
failure, but we must try it.

- Try, yes, but we must
learn from our mistakes.

- Try, yes, but we must
learn from our mistakes.

- Certainly.

Why don't you
go first, Aloysius.

- The wish of Christ
to have their land

- The wish of Christ
to have their land

came at a high expense.

- Very highest, I'd say.

There isn't a tree wide
enough in the forest

There isn't a tree wide
enough in the forest

to hide you from your sins.

And doesn't the Bible say
we must pay for our sins.

- This war was just
one of many calvaries

- This war was just
one of many calvaries

in the thousand year history
of the creation of people,

we will pay for our sins.

we will pay for our sins.

We will repent.

The rest is up to God.

- One night, not too long ago

- One night, not too long ago

when my battalion hit
inside of Bosnian cave,

an elite unit of German
parachuters surrounded us.

an elite unit of German
parachuters surrounded us.

They had us.

(dramatic suspenseful music)

(dramatic suspenseful music)

I may seem Godless to you,

I may seem Godless to you,

but that night something
not of this earth saved me.

but that night something
not of this earth saved me.

- [Aloysius] Yet you
refuse to give God credit.

- God or fate.

- Maybe God and faith
make fate easily acceptable.

- Maybe God and faith
make fate easily acceptable.

- And maybe it was
just chance, destiny.

(dramatic music)

You and I could have
been very different.

- It well very well may be.

- It well very well may be.

- You were trusted to
getting married than I was.

- I find that hard to believe.

- Marija Horovat.

(eerie music)

Proposing without ever
speaking a word to her.

Proposing without ever
speaking a word to her.

That takes courage.

I'd consider my chances better

by going back to that
cave and the German

by going back to that
cave and the German

than asking a woman
to marry me just like that.

You have no idea of what
it is to speak to women

You have no idea of what
it is to speak to women

when you blindly ask
one to marry just like that.

- Foolish.

- [Josip] To say the least.

- [Josip] To say the least.

- I had faith, but I was
very young, and she was-

- I had faith, but I was
very young, and she was-

- Beautiful.

- And kind.

- I'm sure.

- I'm sure.

But beauty is what
catches the eye.

You are allowed
to say it, Aloysius.

You are allowed
to say it, Aloysius.

- She was, very much so.

- She was, very much so.

- We're human,

to deprive ourselves of what
makes us human is inhuman.

That's why I can't agree
with what the church does

That's why I can't agree
with what the church does

to people like you.

- Freewill.

- An imposed idea of freewill

does have a concept
of God they portray

does have a concept
of God they portray

when in fact the thought
that God ever existed

is irrational.

The Vatican asks
a great deal of you,

The Vatican asks
a great deal of you,

yet all they can offer in
return as a nicely crafted

fairy tale.

You sacrifice your life.

What did they sacrifice?

What did they sacrifice?

- The Catholic church
has been a beacon

in the darkest of
times for us Croats.

That's why you
brought me here, isn't it?

That's why you
brought me here, isn't it?

To have me now turn
my back on the faith

that has given me these
people Everything we have,

I will not do that.

- No, no, no, not to your faith.

I'd never asked you that.

We're very similar, you and I.

We've both come a long
way to find ourselves here.

- Yes, but I'm not your
equal, let's not fool ourselves.

- Yes, but I'm not your
equal, let's not fool ourselves.

You could do away with me.

- That's a tempting
thought, but no,

there are too many weaknesses.

- You've had me in a strict
confinement for 17 days now.

- You've had me in a strict
confinement for 17 days now.

I barely seen or
spoken to anyone

without your prior consent.

What I eat is monitored.

What I eat is monitored.

Witnesses are not,
I am your prisoner.

- The decision to confine
you was undertaken

for certain political reasons.

You understand that, and yet
you have persistently refused,

any meeting or
conversation offered to you.

any meeting or
conversation offered to you.

- To confine someone,

then offer them a
friendly conversation,

it's the same as beating
someone with a shovel

it's the same as beating
someone with a shovel

and offering them help.

- We need to come to an
agreement on some issues

regarding the future of
the church in this country.

regarding the future of
the church in this country.

It would be beneficial,
in my opinion,

if we could be on the
same page, that's my hope.

And you can speak freely here.

And you can speak freely here.

It's just you and
me, I assure you.

- [Aloysius] I have experienced
everything imaginable

the past several years
on the various ideologies

the past several years
on the various ideologies

that have little regard for
me or the Catholic church,

but you also need one
regime sent armed soldiers

but you also need one
regime sent armed soldiers

and police into our
court, arrested me

and confiscated church property.

and confiscated church property.

- What did the army take?

- A month ago,
as I entered court,

- A month ago,
as I entered court,

your soldiers took my
car and our telephone.

- The war didn't end with
the liberation of Zagreb.

- The war didn't end with
the liberation of Zagreb.

In Asia Japan
continues to resist.

- It's over in Europe.

- Yes, but we still
have unresolved issues

to settle with the British
and the Americans.

to settle with the British
and the Americans.

This region remains
a powder keg.

Have the officer come in.

- At your command,
Comrade Marshall.

- I want the car or
the telephone returned

to the Archbishop
immediately with an apology

to the Archbishop
immediately with an apology

from the soldiers responsible.

- Yes, sir, Comrade Marshall.

- Until our national governance
has settled in Zagreb,

- Until our national governance
has settled in Zagreb,

it's better for you to stay
in your residence at Capitol.

You don't want to
move around too much.

You don't want to
move around too much.

I'm telling you this
for your own safety.

- The safety of my
priests in federal country

is most important to me.

I don't care for my own safety.

I don't care for my own safety.

- This bloody war has
endangered everybody's safety,

and we didn't start it.

- The people who are
subject to new insecurities

- The people who are
subject to new insecurities

fear and even
vengeance after this victory

Yugos presented.

Then the army hasn't
brought security.

Then the army hasn't
brought security.

- What does that
suppose to mean?

- When the victors seek
vengeance against unarmed
people,

the seeds of a new covert
resistance are planted.

the seeds of a new covert
resistance are planted.

And then the war never ends.

The circle isn't
closed, it just widens.

The circle isn't
closed, it just widens.

- And what are these
unarmed people, as you say?

Are keeping hiding
weapons to use

Are keeping hiding
weapons to use

for some future resistance?

We will crush such a rogue
elements without mercy.

We will crush such a rogue
elements without mercy.

- War has brought too
much death and cruelty

for anyone to
wish it for another,

for anyone to
wish it for another,

but organizing units
to fight after the war

turns the country into
a military police state,

not a democratic one.

not a democratic one.

Many soldiers have failed
in the past because of this.

And similar ones will
disappear in the future.

- It's not very nice or fair
to compare us to the fascist.

- It's not very nice or fair
to compare us to the fascist.

- I'm only referring to
the principles of peace

as written in the Bible.

as written in the Bible.

Whoever lives by the
sword dies by the sword.

- If the allies had
followed those principles,

Hitler would still be in power.

Hitler would still be in power.

- The church has been
preaching these principles

for 2000 years, regardless
of individuals or nations.

- Mankind, wouldn't get
anywhere with prayers

- Mankind, wouldn't get
anywhere with prayers

and listening to sermons of
so-called forgiveness and peace.

- The worst past traveled
are those that are progressed

- The worst past traveled
are those that are progressed

using violence,
weapons and hatred.

- Archbishop, you
have to be realistic.

- Archbishop, you
have to be realistic.

The rule is whether
you like it or not,

the stronger set the term.

- Those beliefs have
brought the world,

the greatest and bloodiest
massacres of the 20th century.

the greatest and bloodiest
massacres of the 20th century.

- The Russians had
no other choice in 1917.

- The Russians had
no other choice in 1917.

I witnessed it personally,
I know you did too.

The war chaos, the feudal Lords,

The war chaos, the feudal Lords,

they were destroying the people.

That's why the October
revolution broke out.

That's why the October
revolution broke out.

- It broke out due to despair.

Revolutions happen when
the desperate grasping

out for all possible
straws to save themselves,

out for all possible
straws to save themselves,

than a time to change,
self-proclaimed politicians

and so-called ideology
show making empty promises,

and so-called ideology
show making empty promises,

imposing themselves
on the people like gods.

- Well, even the gods can't
help, then what can be done?

- Well, even the gods can't
help, then what can be done?

- There are no
earthly divinities.

Christianity is
the seed of faith,

it's sprouted the
blood of Jesus Christ.

it's sprouted the
blood of Jesus Christ.

- Christianity is a thing of
the distant past, Archbishop.

New social communities
call for practical ways of
living.

New social communities
call for practical ways of
living.

- There are no greater
practical formulas

without spiritual balance,
virality and faith in God.

without spiritual balance,
virality and faith in God.

The Russians will realize this.

Everybody does.

- The means of production
will be turned over

to the workers,
peacefully or by force.

to the workers,
peacefully or by force.

The October revolution
continues to move on.

It'll give birth to a happier
more just world order.

It'll give birth to a happier
more just world order.

- That's just an assumption.

It's hard to say what's worse.

It's hard to say what's worse.

War or revolution.

- What a peaceful
transition is, not the horiz,

you've got to get rough.

- Who has the right to
impose an ideology of rule

- Who has the right to
impose an ideology of rule

by force on the land,
in the name of what?

- If the feudal lords
and the bourgeoisie

- If the feudal lords
and the bourgeoisie

hadn't opposed
everybody in their path,

the revolution wouldn't
have happened.

It was a historical
necessity realized

It was a historical
necessity realized

by Lenin and the Bolsheviks.

Any system that begins
with death ends with death.

- A certain dictatorship
of the proletariat

- A certain dictatorship
of the proletariat

is unavoidable
in the first phase.

- Church doesn't neglect
social issues either,

it has its teachings.

it has its teachings.

- All religions are an
opiate for the masses,

Marx understood that.

- Goodness said that in
the name of our nation,

- Goodness said that in
the name of our nation,

Croatians have survived
because of their unwavering

belief in Christianity.

- God and Croats.

- It's a lullaby.

- Not a lullaby.

- Not a lullaby.

A gent reminder, he
is always by our side.

- was God by your side,
when you sided with a feudal.

- was God by your side,
when you sided with a feudal.

- When people are
desperate to have a land

they could call their own-

they could call their own-

- They make a
deal with the devil.

So you failed the
courage of your conviction?

So you failed the
courage of your conviction?

- Our people were
blinded by the desire

to have a piece of land
they could call their own.

- So how are you
better than those

- So how are you
better than those

you're so reckless
in criticizing?

- The intent.
- Intent?

Intent is always there.

Intent is always there.

It's what lies behind,
it makes a difference.

- It's delusional to
think that communism

- It's delusional to
think that communism

is this new form
of defined purity.

In spite of technical
and economic progress

the world is still confronted
with a spiritual crisis.

the world is still confronted
with a spiritual crisis.

Christianity is being
discounted by those

who don't recognize as
human and moral power.

who don't recognize as
human and moral power.

Capitalism is a sickness, yes,

but communism is
the wrong antidote to it.

but communism is
the wrong antidote to it.

- And why in your opinion,

did the bloodiest
revolution take place

in a Christian
country like Russia?

in a Christian
country like Russia?

- The October revolution
is the bloodiest massacre

within a single
nation in history.

- And yet the ideas of
the October evolution

- And yet the ideas of
the October evolution

continue to inspire
people far and wide.

- But at what cost?

The October revolution has
been eating its own kind of

The October revolution has
been eating its own kind of

from the very beginning.

- And how has the
church governed?

Throughout history, it took
up arms, staging inquisitions,

burnings at the
stake, witch hunts?

burnings at the
stake, witch hunts?

If it wasn't for the crusades,

you as a Christian
wouldn't even exist.

How many people have died

so you could call
yourself a Christian?

so you could call
yourself a Christian?

- I cannot undo the
mistakes of the past.

- Ah, the self-righteous
way in which you

give an excuse for any number
of sins committed by those

give an excuse for any number
of sins committed by those

you yourself are governed by.

It's amazing to me.

- The church has always
succeeded in renewing itself

- The church has always
succeeded in renewing itself

by cleansing his soul,
confessing his sins

and calling unconscious
and faith in the almighty.

and calling unconscious
and faith in the almighty.

- It's fairly easy to
confess your sins

when you know, there
are no repercussions.

- There are always
repercussions.

- There are always
repercussions.

Besides the churches enjoyed
for 2000 years, Roman emperor,

various political
leaders, SARS, ideologies

various political
leaders, SARS, ideologies

have all come and gone.

The church remains.

- Our great revolutionary
from the 16th century,

- Our great revolutionary
from the 16th century,

the leader of the peasant
rebellion, Matea Gilberts,

he was captured by the feudal
powers and here in Zagreb,

he was captured by the feudal
powers and here in Zagreb,

not far from where we are,

they placed a fiery crown
of red hot iron on his head.

they placed a fiery crown
of red hot iron on his head.

And that happened with the
blessing of Bishop Blagsovich.

- Yes.

The church was
weak at that time,

and under the influence
of powerful foreigners.

and under the influence
of powerful foreigners.

Had I been the Bishop, I
would have asked for a crown

made of gold to be
placed on his head.

- And then you would have
gotten the same treatment.

- And then you would have
gotten the same treatment.

Their kindness would
have escaped you.

- And, what do we gain
from living a few more years

- And, what do we gain
from living a few more years

if those years are given to us?

Because we had just to come
to a system written with lies.

- Equality, and care for others,

that is what I'm striving for.

Communism is not
opiate for the masses.

Communism is the ideal
of how one should live.

- The first Christian
communities 2000 years ago

- The first Christian
communities 2000 years ago

were equal in classes
for all, men and women.

Simple said, do not
mistreat thy slave

Simple said, do not
mistreat thy slave

for he's thy brought up.

- Why do you
speak of this theory?

- Why do you
speak of this theory?

Communists are the first
ones to begin resolving things

in a practical manner where
nobody's brother is his slave.

in a practical manner where
nobody's brother is his slave.

- By tricking people into
thinking they're perfect,

flawless.

The first for money,
power and luxury

The first for money,
power and luxury

has clouded the minds of many.

You speak of the
bourgeoisie that was.

Where we're sitting right now?

Where we're sitting right now?

Is this the residence of a
humble servant to the people?

- Is yours?

You must stop make
a house in my name.

Doesn't that remind
you of someone?

Come on now, Aloysius
you're not a stupid man.

Come on now, Aloysius
you're not a stupid man.

Somewhere deep down
inside you must've thought

Somewhere deep down
inside you must've thought

is the sacrifice
of mine worth it?

You know that I know everything
there is to know about you.

You know that I know everything
there is to know about you.

But at night when all this dark,

But at night when all this dark,

and our thoughts belong to
ourselves, does your mind
wonder?

and our thoughts belong to
ourselves, does your mind
wonder?

You never saw Marija again.

- No.

- Do you think of her?

- I allow myself the
privilege to wonder, yes.

- Do you allow yourself,
and would the church

- Do you allow yourself,
and would the church

want you to wonder?

Our thoughts belong
only to us as to our secrets.

Why did you ask her to marry you

Why did you ask her to marry you

when you'd never
spoken a word to her?

- Why do you care to know.

- Why do you care to know.

- Asking a woman for
her hand in marriage

without knowing her.

Her accepting and you abruptly
deciding to enter priesthood,

Her accepting and you abruptly
deciding to enter priesthood,

it's perplexing.

it's perplexing.

- It was not the life
that I wanted in the end.

- As simple as that?

- Yes.

- But you wondered
how life might have fared

- But you wondered
how life might have fared

if you'd chosen to marry.

- And I would not be
here sitting with you.

- And I would not be
here sitting with you.

- Maybe he'd be
on the side I'm on,

fighting the good fight and
not sitting across from me,

fighting the good fight and
not sitting across from me,

giving me a headache.

- Then you might
be in my position.

- A priest, never.

I love life too much to
take so much away from it.

- Is that what you think
we do to ourselves.

- To not live life
fully, to have a family,

- To not live life
fully, to have a family,

a life without my children,

to feel the warmth
of a woman's touch?

No.

No.

I'd rather die than deprive
myself for such a feeling.

- Our fulfillment comes
from serving others.

You've never kissed a woman.

- No.

- [Josip] Never.

- [Josip] Never.

- No.

- Then by God, you
must have a drink with me.

- Thank you, but
the answer is still no.

- Thank you, but
the answer is still no.

- Then I shall
drink in your name.

(soft music)

"My dearest, Aloysius,

"My dearest, Aloysius,

your statement
surprised me greatly.

And now that I've thought
it over, my response is..."

And now that I've thought
it over, my response is..."

And she goes on in further
details, I'm sure you remember

And she goes on in further
details, I'm sure you remember

Would like to keep it?

You made quite an
impression on the young woman.

You made quite an
impression on the young woman.

Despite the lack
of conversation.

John Kwan would be
jealous, I'm jealous.

Perhaps you can teach
me, give me some pointers.

Perhaps you can teach
me, give me some pointers.

- That is a lifelong gone now.

- Remind me, what
came of Marija?

- Remind me, what
came of Marija?

(soft music)

(soft music)

Who do you think took her?

God or you don't know?

- As I said, we we're
given options, we pick one,

consequences are
there to be endured.

consequences are
there to be endured.

- Of all the people on
that bus, he took just her.

Doesn't that make you-

- Yes.

- Furious?

(suspenseful music)

- I prayed for her
soul every day since.

- Why?

- Why?

- Hoping she'd forgive me.

- Did you forgive yourself?

She knows why I chose my path.

Everything that happened
after it is God's will.

Everything that happened
after it is God's will.

- All right.

So it must be God's will
that good conquered evil

So it must be God's will
that good conquered evil

in this world?

- Good must prevail
whatever the cost.

- And who's
responsible for that?

Must I beg you for some credit?

- You've only just begun,

and I would not feel optimistic
based on what I've seen.

and I would not feel optimistic
based on what I've seen.

- The world without
Hitler, Mussolini,

and that despicable Ustase
fascist, Pavelic, is safer?

and that despicable Ustase
fascist, Pavelic, is safer?

- Yes, but that
depends what follows.

- Yes, but that
depends what follows.

- You deny the past,
you fear the future.

How can the present
ever be good enough?

- I don't deny a thing.

- I don't deny a thing.

I openly opposed the
war and the occupation

in the cathedral in
front of everyone.

I protested against the
injustice, and inhumanity.

I protested against the
injustice, and inhumanity.

Condemn the killing and
degregation of everyone,

regardless of race,
religion, and nationality,

I protect and saved
as many as I could.

I protect and saved
as many as I could.

Serbs, Jews, Gypsy,
Slovenians all those persecuted,

and not just once.

and not just once.

- Do you have proof of that?

- [Aloysius] Proof you and
your party will deny me?

- [Josip] For example,

- [Josip] For example,

- The Orthodox mission,
(indistinct) asked me

to get his brother out
of a camp in (indistinct)

to get his brother out
of a camp in (indistinct)

Pavelic unwilling
you released him,

much dear to his displeasure.

In 1941, I succeeded
in saving 157 women

In 1941, I succeeded
in saving 157 women

who've been arrested in Klina.

That same year I intervened
to free the Calabasas Bishop.

That same year I intervened
to free the Calabasas Bishop.

The following year in
1942 Catholic women

asked me to intervene
to save their husbands

who were Jewish.

I help them get their freedom.

I help them get their freedom.

I also saved Dr. (indistinct)

served from persecution.

In 1943, I think I
had 24 interventions

In 1943, I think I
had 24 interventions

on behalf of Serbs and
11 on behalf of Jews,

you are comrade,
you know who I am.

you are comrade,
you know who I am.

If I am anything that
I'm being accused of,

now, I wouldn't be
here talking with you.

now, I wouldn't be
here talking with you.

My corpse would be long
gone, buried somewhere.

I don't have to be alive
because I'm the Archbishop.

I don't have to be alive
because I'm the Archbishop.

My title isn't saving me.

I'm here because
however much you wish

to deny me my good deeds,

to deny me my good deeds,

there are, as you would say,
too many witnesses to them,

we can't all be buried at once.

we can't all be buried at once.

- Yes, bring me
some coffee, will you.

Priests took up
arms during the war.

You can't deny that
you were aware of that.

You can't deny that
you were aware of that.

They fought for
the fascist enemy.

- I never approved the
actions of such individuals.

On the contrary,
we ex-communicated

On the contrary,
we ex-communicated

some of them immediately.

But let's not forget,

a lot of them are
subject to horrible torture

at the hands of the Partisans,

at the hands of the Partisans,

nailed across throughout the
country, skinned, burned aliv.

Their only sin was because
they served the church

and the creation nation.

and the creation nation.

- It war, those
are isolated cases.

- So do we.

Precise data on the number
of murdered priests, nuns,

Precise data on the number
of murdered priests, nuns,

and theologians and
how they were tortured.

- And what is that compared
to the number of our victims?

- And what is that compared
to the number of our victims?

- Is the number or a
reason why a single life

is lost more important.

- They were involved in fascism.

- They were involved in fascism.

We, the anti-fascists we
restored Croatia honor.

We, the anti-fascists we
restored Croatia honor.

- All of the Yugoslav nations,

not only Croatia were
involved in fascism

not only Croatia were
involved in fascism

because they had to.

Croatians fortune is
the territory it inhabits.

For centuries it has been
a place where that hatred

For centuries it has been
a place where that hatred

between the left and
the right fight is battlefiel.

For those of us who fight in
the word of God in the prayer,

For those of us who fight in
the word of God in the prayer,

human life is paramount.

Whichever side
it's from, not death.

What did you have
in your slogan?

What did you have
in your slogan?

- Our slogan?

The death to evil needed to
be emphasized at the time.

The death to evil needed to
be emphasized at the time.

But along with death to fascism,

we added freedom to the people.

we added freedom to the people.

- Evil is evil.

Regardless of the ideology.

As far as the
so-called Croatian guilt,

As far as the
so-called Croatian guilt,

it is not the first time
we faced this accusation,

and something tells
me it won't be the last.

- The historical fact remains
that after the dissolution

- The historical fact remains
that after the dissolution

of the kingdom of Yugoslavia,

Croatia was the under Republic
to declare its independence

Croatia was the under Republic
to declare its independence

under Pavelic and
take the side of Hitler

and Mussolini during the war.

To whatever does occur,

To whatever does occur,

history will never
be kind to you.

- Hitler and Mussolini
just took advantage

of the people who
were desperate.

of the people who
were desperate.

- Nobody cares about the
content of your explanation.

The headline is bad enough.

- To have a state at any
cost, that was the wish.

- To have a state at any
cost, that was the wish.

The price we have paid
on one we are destined

to pay over time will be
severe, but we must face it.

to pay over time will be
severe, but we must face it.

Small nations are not allowed
to write their own history,

and larger ones don't care
as much other than to use us

and larger ones don't care
as much other than to use us

mercilessly.

- Croatians are fierce
fighters, I'll give them that.

- Croatians are fierce
fighters, I'll give them that.

- Because foreign have forced
them to defend their homes

for centuries.

for centuries.

- Foreigners.

The Austro-Hungarian military
commander, Ban Jellacic

he wasn't a foreigner,
he was Croat.

- Who was used by
Ferdinand a hundred years ago

to defend him from Budapest.

to defend him from Budapest.

And after he was
done, they left him to die

his lonely pitiful death
at a residence in Zagreb,

his lonely pitiful death
at a residence in Zagreb,

a reward for his
military service.

- Croats still insist on
singing rise up Ban,

- Croats still insist on
singing rise up Ban,

Croatia is calling you.

- We are always looking
for someone to liberate us

from a perpetual bloodbath
we find ourselves in.

from a perpetual bloodbath
we find ourselves in.

- One mistake could be an
accident, a long list of
mistakes,

at some point you have
to stop blaming others

for your misfortunes.

Has the coffee gone missing.

Nevermind, I'll
come get it myself.

You want some?

- No.

- Very well, at
some point today,

I'll get you to say yes to me.

Wheres my coffee.

(cricket chirping)

(recorder whirring)

(clock ticking)

(somber music)

(somber music)

(clock ticking)

(clock ticking)

There, it is.

About time.

You can read the
land of fascists,

but they still make you
get your own coffee.

but they still make you
get your own coffee.

Some things never change.

You were admiring them.

- Pardon?

- Flowers, lilies.

- Flowers, lilies.

- Yes.

That scent.

That scent.

- It's intoxicating.

If a woman wears a perfume
with even a hint of lilies,

If a woman wears a perfume
with even a hint of lilies,

I get weak at the knees.

- How did you get them?

- How did you get them?

They're not common.

- No, you're right, they're not.

Every week, I get a shipment.

Every week, I get a shipment.

Yes, I know.

You'll have to forgive me,
the bourgeoisie had taste.

You'll have to forgive me,
the bourgeoisie had taste.

You're in the company
of a weak man.

- Somehow I doubt that.

- Is that a compliment
you're giving me.

- Just an observation.

- For a moment there,
I thought you and I

had finally agreed on something.

Together we can be stronger.

Together we can be stronger.

That is the purpose
of Yugoslavia.

The politics of it,
foreign and domestic

The politics of it,
foreign and domestic

will always have to come
down to compromise.

We must be aware of that.

- The church It's not
a political organization

- The church It's not
a political organization

or a business.

- The church owns more
land across the world

- The church owns more
land across the world

than the richest nations do.

You may not be a political
organization or a business,

You may not be a political
organization or a business,

but you are hypocrites.

- Where are we
sitting right now?

Is this the home that
wants to belong to a Jew.

- At one time, yes.

- One time, 1941, 4 years ago.

- One time, 1941, 4 years ago.

- Yes.

But who took the
homes from the Jews?

But who took the
homes from the Jews?

The system, your people support.

- Yes, but then those same
homes are taken by your peop.

You could have given them back.

You could have given them back.

- It will be discussed
at some point.

- The Ustase took
this house from a Jew,

- The Ustase took
this house from a Jew,

the communist took
it from the Ustase,

yet no one is willing to fix
the wrongs done by the system

they just overthrew.

A wrong done by one does
not justify the wrong done by

A wrong done by one does
not justify the wrong done by

whomever comes next.

- You know that the only
reason people that you

can't marry or have
children is so that the

can't marry or have
children is so that the

church's property can
never come into question.

It's not because your servitude
to God would suffer, no.

It's not because your servitude
to God would suffer, no.

It's only because
the church might lose

its precious valuables.

its precious valuables.

If the people in the Vatican
chose not to care so much

for material things, you
might not have been faced

for material things, you
might not have been faced

with that fatal choice.

To either enter priesthood or
Mary Marija and have a family,

To either enter priesthood or
Mary Marija and have a family,

perhaps she'd be alive and well.

perhaps she'd be alive and well.

And you wouldn't be
tormented by the thoughts

of what might have been.

You wouldn't have the
need to visit her every Friday

You wouldn't have the
need to visit her every Friday

when no one's looking.

when no one's looking.

(soft music)

I can give you peace of mind.

We're building
a new way of life.

You and I, we can co-exist
you don't need the chain,

that is the Vatican
to drag you down.

that is the Vatican
to drag you down.

- Now, stop.

- That is the reality whether
you care to admit it or not.

- A child can never
divorce his parents.

- A child can never
divorce his parents.

- Not unless the
parents neglect the child,

time and time again.

time and time again.

Equality for all nations
and nationalities,

mistakes made by the
kingdom won't be repeated.

mistakes made by the
kingdom won't be repeated.

Yugoslavia will be a republic,

one that's federal
socialist, democratic,

one that's federal
socialist, democratic,

and just for all equally.

- Declaring is one thing.

Reality is another.

- What do you mean by that?

- What do you mean by that?

The capitol you've
chosen, Belgrade,

all the decisions for once
it can be centered there.

all the decisions for once
it can be centered there.

We won't have much to say
because we won't be asked

what our opinion even is.

And our faith will be
subordinated as it was before.

And our faith will be
subordinated as it was before.

- After all that's happened,

- After all that's happened,

I should've picked Ustase
Zagreb as the Capitol.

Brotherhood and unity.

Brotherhood and unity.

Zagreb was not
an example of that.

We will not tolerate
nationalism as it was practicd

We will not tolerate
nationalism as it was practicd

in the so-called
independent state of Croatia

for four years.

for four years.

Belgrade is the
only logical choice.

- Not a thing in
life or nature occurs

without a cause and effect.

without a cause and effect.

You hit a dog, he will react.

Serbs impose their wilderness
throughout the 20 years

we spent with him in a first
marriage called Yugoslavia.

we spent with him in a first
marriage called Yugoslavia.

So how do you
expect it to be different?

- That's extraordinary.

I have this same
conversation in Belgrade

I have this same
conversation in Belgrade

and the story is reversed.

They are the ones who
were imposed against, killed

They are the ones who
were imposed against, killed

tortured by Croats.

They have proof
so on and so forth.

It never ends, we must end it.

It never ends, we must end it.

Serbs are just as obsessed
with ufology and past.

- Croatia and Serbs
are two opposing worlds,

- Croatia and Serbs
are two opposing worlds,

separated by an
oceans of differences.

- Yet we have to find
a way of coexisting.

For the first time in history,

we have the opportunity to
eliminate these differences.

- I don't know who you're
referring to under we,

- I don't know who you're
referring to under we,

but it's clear your revolution
is introducing foreign ideas

and the interest of
the more powerful

and the interest of
the more powerful

into the mess
that is the Balkans.

Everybody forgets the
true purpose of small nations

in this European
shooting gallery.

in this European
shooting gallery.

- The purpose being?

- That they had
designated by God and fate

to connect people,
permanent bridges of sort

to connect people,
permanent bridges of sort

between opposing worlds.

Like bridges are also the
site of the fiercest battles

Like bridges are also the
site of the fiercest battles

intend to be destroyed.

The Croatian bridge
defended European Christianit.

- You can't say that Pavelic,

- You can't say that Pavelic,

and his regime
served as a bridge.

- I'm not talking about
him now as a priest,

but as a witness, a witness
Pavelic wasn't fond of.

but as a witness, a witness
Pavelic wasn't fond of.

I did not like him,
and he did not like me.

- Yes, but Archbishop,

- Yes, but Archbishop,

the art of life is
choosing the right side.

- And what his
history right side?

Phoenicians?

Phoenicians?

Tatas?

Francs?

Bisson deans, Hungarians,
Turks, Habsburgs, Germans,

and following world
war one Serbs?

and following world
war one Serbs?

Creations has survived and
was saved only through God

and the faith in
him, not politics.

- Yes, but the
revolution must go on.

- Yes, but the
revolution must go on.

New times are coming.

The church is being separated
from the state of the west

The church is being separated
from the state of the west

as well.

- Neither Yugoslavia, all the
independent state of Croatia

were inclined towards the church

because we publicly
condemned every instance

because we publicly
condemned every instance

of unjust persecution.

- You will have to
firmly distance yourself

from nationalism now.

from nationalism now.

- I can only repeat what I said
during my sermon in Zagreb

two years ago.

We do not support
nationalism because Catholicm

We do not support
nationalism because Catholicm

is universal.

It was God's greatness,
that created many nations,

different traditions,
languages, cultures.

different traditions,
languages, cultures.

Every race, every
religion, every nation

has the right of
life worthy of man.

has the right of
life worthy of man.

- I'm authorized to
tell you that Belgrade

would welcome an
agreement with you.

I personally wish
for this to happen.

I personally wish
for this to happen.

- So do we.

But not an agreement where
we agree to destroy ourselves.

- If you refuse, you
will have to accept

- If you refuse, you
will have to accept

full responsibility.

- For what?

- Consequences.

- Consequences.

We're not interested in
dealing with the Vatican,

we specifically
want an agreement

with the Catholic
church of Croatia.

with the Catholic
church of Croatia.

One that you could
personally administer.

And as I said, I can
guarantee your safety.

And as I said, I can
guarantee your safety.

- We cannot agree to have
a national Catholic church.

It does not exist, all roads-

- Lead to Rome.

- Lead to Rome.

But why?

You have a chance,
the power to change that.

And you start a new world.

I've already begun the change
and you can start one as well.

I've already begun the change
and you can start one as well.

Can't you see what we're doing?

Yes.

The veil that is communism
may not be very appetizing

The veil that is communism
may not be very appetizing

to someone such as yourself,

but you must agree
with the basic fact

that some form of social
equality, safety is necessary.

that some form of social
equality, safety is necessary.

Haven't our people
suffered enough.

Haven't our people
suffered enough.

Don't we owed them
some sense of security.

- The politicians in Belgrade
and the Orthodox church,

have always gone hand
in hand, even publicly.

The Serbian Orthodox
church is more political

The Serbian Orthodox
church is more political

than every religious
organization.

That is why the
agreement was annulled.

I do not want to competition
between Zagreb and Belgrade,

I do not want to competition
between Zagreb and Belgrade,

all acts of vengeance.

I insisted the
misunderstandings end

when the agreement was annulled.

when the agreement was annulled.

- We won't give precedence
in the new Yugoslavia,

to anyone religion.

- Actions are
important not words.

- Actions are
important not words.

With your methods, you
get the opposite effect.

- What methods?

- Locking me up.

The highest Catholic
servant in the land.

- We were forced to
put you in detention.

- We were forced to
put you in detention.

We wanted to negotiate.

We sent people to you,
you turned them down

time and time again.

What options did you give us?

What options did you give us?

- Yes, you are correct,
people were sent.

They offered me cigarettes
like you do when I came here,

probably thinking that if I
smoked home with them,

probably thinking that if I
smoked home with them,

it gets something for
me that I confined them.

You must've sent
about four different men,

all with the same approach.

all with the same approach.

By the third I flat out refused.

Then the threats came.

Then the threats came.

- Our official representative
for religious issues

were sent to you.

He was once your associate,
you turned him down.

He was once your associate,
you turned him down.

- Yes, he was once before
he joined your movement

and went over to the Partisans.

I told him I would always
receive him at my residence,

I told him I would always
receive him at my residence,

but me not as a prisoner
and him not as a politician,

but as a priest.

- And we even sent Olga to you.

- And we even sent Olga to you.

The niece of the leader of
the Croatian Peasant party,

The niece of the leader of
the Croatian Peasant party,

Dr. Macek.

- She was a devout
Catholic in her youth,

as well as her uncle.

as well as her uncle.

I respected and helped
both of them when necessary.

But during his student days,

Olga fell under the
influence of your ideology

Olga fell under the
influence of your ideology

and defected to you.

She told me herself.

- And what did she say?

- That she believed in
you and that your party

- That she believed in
you and that your party

was sacred to her.

- Didn't that make
an impression?

- People like her don't
come to negotiate.

They come to persuade.

They come to persuade.

I told Olga to go and
talk politics with her uncle.

as a tremendous difference
between negotiation

as a tremendous difference
between negotiation

and a persistent
attempt to persuasion.

- It's not very easy talking
to you and Mr. Archbishop.

- It's not very easy talking
to you and Mr. Archbishop.

Here, the logs.

Proof that you behaved in
an uncooperative manner

even before the Partisans
marched into Zagreb.

even before the Partisans
marched into Zagreb.

We sent a delegate to
you, this year before Easter

We sent a delegate to
you, this year before Easter

as you were preparing to
give a lecture to students

as you were preparing to
give a lecture to students

at the university.

That was a clear
attempt to frighten me.

- It is crucial that we know
what the young people

are going to hear.

are going to hear.

Yes, he was sent
intentionally with our
instruction.

- Instructions to silence me.

You must understand
the position we're in.

- You're fooling
yourself into thinking

- You're fooling
yourself into thinking

I would take instructions from
communists about what I say,

especially to the young people.

- You criticized the great
powers in your lecture.

- You criticized the great
powers in your lecture.

I have it all here.

(gentle music)

You mentioned the
evil Stalin is doing,

You mentioned the
evil Stalin is doing,

the Yalta agreement.

I could go on.

Isn't that getting
involved in politics?

Isn't that getting
involved in politics?

- The church is not
permitted to be timid

or indifferent about
anything in this environment.

- But you insist that the
powers that be have no right

- But you insist that the
powers that be have no right

to interfere with you?

That's a one-sided affair
as logic would see it.

- I simply emphasize in my talk,

- I simply emphasize in my talk,

the principle of peace St
Augustine came up with-

- By criticizing
the great powers.

- By criticizing
the great powers.

Your attempt to discreet
diplomacy isn't very discreet.

- Who said I was
trying to be discreet?

- Who said I was
trying to be discreet?

- That you aren't.

But Archbishop, we
must pick our battles.

- St Augustine said,
(speaks foreign language)

- St Augustine said,
(speaks foreign language)

which means the
piece of all things.

which means the
piece of all things.

- So why hasn't St.
Augustine's ideas been realized?

It is theory
Archbishop, just theory.

- However you
wish to look at it,

I find certain comfort in
those who promote peace,

I find certain comfort in
those who promote peace,

rather than the idea of peace

gained through the means
of a bloody dictatorship.

- You can't make an omelet
without breaking some eggs.

- You can't make an omelet
without breaking some eggs.

I too would like absolute
peace to be reached.

Of course, the
question remains how.

Of course, the
question remains how.

- Peace comes
from knowing oneself,

respecting thy neighbor
and that belief in God.

respecting thy neighbor
and that belief in God.

- And I just saw
a pig take flight.

Let's be real for once.

Let's be real for once.

Seven days after your lecture
when we were practically

at the gates of Zagreb,

at the gates of Zagreb,

not only did you describe
communism as a looming danger,

but you publicly accused
us of destroying churches

but you publicly accused
us of destroying churches

and killing priests.

You didn't think we'd
get into the city, did you?

- The bishops, and I
simply spoke the truth,

and I can repeat it now,
anytime, if you'd like.

and I can repeat it now,
anytime, if you'd like.

- You are programmed to have
a response to everything I sa.

- Because I have
nothing to hide.

My soul is pure.

My soul is pure.

Is yours?

243 priests and fathers
were killed by the Partisans.

243 priests and fathers
were killed by the Partisans.

169 in prison, 89 disappeared
along with 119 theologians,

the numbers keep rising.

- We can't talk like this.

- We can't talk like this.

- These numbers cannot be-

- Enough!

- If any of what
you say is true,

- If any of what
you say is true,

then your people
didn't die innocent men.

And as you said, everything
in life has a cause and effec.

And as you said, everything
in life has a cause and effec.

- These were men
of God got and honor-

- Spare me the sympathy
Catholic, they were
collaborators.

- In February, the 7th
29 priests were killed

inside a monastery in
Siroki Brijeg at Herzegovina.

- The information I was
given was that Siroki Brijeg

- The information I was
given was that Siroki Brijeg

was a stronghold of the
enemy, as simple as that.

- So you knew about this?

- Of course I did.

- Of course I did.

The problem was dealt with.

- These men possessed
nothing but a kitchen knives.

- You were there?

- You were there?

You know this to be
true what you just said.

- I know enough that guns
are never part of the clergy.

- So quickly are to defend
based on old assumptions.

- So quickly are to defend
based on old assumptions.

- As quick as you
to assume otherwise.

- You should know
better Archbishop

than to stick your neck
out to save someone

than to stick your neck
out to save someone

from Herzegovina.

The only thing they
enjoy more than money

is distorting the truth.

is distorting the truth.

There was credible
proof to have them-

- Killed?
- ...dealt with.

And I was the one
who gave the older.

People die in war Archbishop.

A message needed to be sent.

A message needed to be sent.

- No trial, just an assumption
and immediate verdict.

- No trial, just an assumption
and immediate verdict.

We are turning
to both our times.

- In France, just this last
year during the liberation

from the Germans, thousands
of suspects have died

from the Germans, thousands
of suspects have died

without legal process, why?

Because they
collaborated with the enemy.

Because they
collaborated with the enemy.

- France is not
like the Balkans.

He, it is enough just to
label someone a fascist

and that's it.

and that's it.

And the tiny nation
being persecuted.

- It's the hand of
our peoples revenge.

- The power is now in the
hands of your commanders

and commissaries,
most of whom were Serbs.

and commissaries,
most of whom were Serbs.

They too collaborated
with the Germans,

but this gets
conveniently forgotten.

The chief commander
Jelic, he bragged the Soviet

was the first country in Europe,

to rid itself of the Jews.

And you think that you
Yugoslavia can suddenly become

And you think that you
Yugoslavia can suddenly become

a community of equal nations?

- That is the vision,
and that is how it will be.

- That is the vision,
and that is how it will be.

- You too are a Croat, and
this is after all your count.

I hope a part of
you remembers that.

- I am a Croat.

- I am a Croat.

And I'm the general
secretary of Yugoslavia.

What I am and where I'm from
is what gave us our divisions.

What I am and where I'm from
is what gave us our divisions.

We need to set it aside.

We are all Yugoslavs.

We are all Yugoslavs.

- Many of the soldiers
that fought in your army

fought alongside the Chetniks.

fought alongside the Chetniks.

Aside the constant the sight
of anyone who is Croatian,

and you expect them
to suddenly change.

and you expect them
to suddenly change.

- They volunteered
because they realized

that our revolution
is necessary.

- They didn't change
side based on principle,

- They didn't change
side based on principle,

they changed side
because they saw that history

was about to change.

Their intent was to
save their own necks,

Their intent was to
save their own necks,

and they will turn
that back on you

if they see something better
coming around the corner.

- Would you blame them?

- An army without a
backbone is like a parishioner

- An army without a
backbone is like a parishioner

without a church.

I have been speaking
the entire time about

what's important to
my believers in nation,

what's important to
my believers in nation,

but if I'm not
allowed to function,

there is no point
to this meeting.

- And according to you,
what are these issues?

- And according to you,
what are these issues?

- One for example,
on the edges of the city,

in the poorest neighborhoods,
where according to you,

in the poorest neighborhoods,
where according to you,

you once for the human
rights of the ordinary man,

camps are being built
with barbwire fences.

camps are being built
with barbwire fences.

Every day, these so-called
prisoners in these camps

are taken to military
courts or simply disappear.

are taken to military
courts or simply disappear.

These are ordinary
men whose only guilt

is that they were forced
to live under fascism.

- They could have joined us.

- They're not like the Chetniks.

- I don't see a problem
in our vetting process.

- I don't see a problem
in our vetting process.

We must be certain
that those who remain

are steadfast in their
belief in anti-fascism.

are steadfast in their
belief in anti-fascism.

Besides if our camps
are so terrifying,

what would you call Jasenovac?

How many were killed there.

- A house taken by the Ustase,
gets taken by the communists.

- A house taken by the Ustase,
gets taken by the communists.

Account build by the Nazis,

it justifies one build
by the communists,

and round and round we go.

I sent a letter, I'm sure you
know about directly to Pavelic

I sent a letter, I'm sure you
know about directly to Pavelic

everybody in Zagreb
knows I openly stated

that Jasenovac was
disgraced for all Croatians.

that Jasenovac was
disgraced for all Croatians.

That is why I ended up
on the unfavorable list

in the previous system.

- It's well-known that
you met with Pavelic.

- It's well-known that
you met with Pavelic.

- Yes, according to protocol.

After the Croatian state
was founded I was obliged to.

After the Croatian state
was founded I was obliged to.

The same way I'm
respecting your invitation

as the leader of
the new Yugoslavia.

And the same way I'd respect

And the same way I'd respect

if one day someone else
was sitting across from me

where you are right now.

- Let's not get
ahead of ourselves.

- Let's not get
ahead of ourselves.

- If I told you, I said the
same thing to Pavelic

and he said those same
words you just said to me,

and he said those same
words you just said to me,

you would label me a liar.

Nothing lasts forever,
at least of all politics.

- I'm willing to bet that I
last a little longer than him.

- I warned Pavelic, and
the members of parliament,

once they institute
a race laws in 1941

in front of St. Mark's church,
that God's laws were supreme,

in front of St. Mark's church,
that God's laws were supreme,

and that we should
all be ruled by them.

From that moment on
his relationship with me

From that moment on
his relationship with me

was nothing more
than courteous at best.

- And towards
the end of the war,

you reached out to Pavelic.

you reached out to Pavelic.

- Yes, in 1944.

When Hitler and his allies
were beginning to lose the w,

When Hitler and his allies
were beginning to lose the w,

I wanted to save
what could be saved.

For the sake of our people
who are tricked into something

For the sake of our people
who are tricked into something

they were never part of.

He arrogantly and
flatly refused me.

- It also says in the
reports that the occupiers

- It also says in the
reports that the occupiers

held talks with you just a
month ago before they retread

asking you as Archbishop
to take over power.

asking you as Archbishop
to take over power.

This means that you
are an authority to them.

- I was not made aware of that.

- I was not made aware of that.

But I know I was a persona
non grata for some time.

I think, you know me better
than my own flesh and blood.

I think, you know me better
than my own flesh and blood.

- It also says that
before their final retreat,

you paid a visit
to the occupiers.

you paid a visit
to the occupiers.

Were you saying your
goodbyes to them voluntary?

Were you saying your
goodbyes to them voluntary?

- I requested from Ustases
that they in the Germans,

de-mine Zagreb
before fleeing it?

de-mine Zagreb
before fleeing it?

- I for one would have
had them de-mine the city

by making them walk
across all the fields

they placed the mines in.

- Revenge.

- Revenge.

- Justification.

Reap as you sow.

(door opens)

(door opens)

- If those mines had remained,

many civilians would
have been killed

along with your soldiers.

along with your soldiers.

- When the Partisan
army entered Zagreb,

the man who sat in that
chair when you walked in,

the man who sat in that
chair when you walked in,

the president of our
Croatian government,

Dr. Vladimir Bakaric-
- I recognize him.

Dr. Vladimir Bakaric-
- I recognize him.

- ...appeared before
your residence

yet no one had the
courtesy to greet him.

Is that how liberate
is welcomed?

- I recall that my people
told me three dusty cars

- I recall that my people
told me three dusty cars

with soldiers were
circling out cathedral

armed to the teeth.

- Armed or not, it was your
duty to greet them with respect.

- Armed or not, it was your
duty to greet them with respect.

- Our doors are open to
anyone who wishes to enter

- Our doors are open to
anyone who wishes to enter

just not those carrying weapons.

- They deserve to
be greeted as heroes.

- Zagreb was engulfed
in chaos in those days,

- Zagreb was engulfed
in chaos in those days,

the government was changing.

We didn't know who
was in those cars.

- And that's a lie.

- And that's a lie.

The message was
sent informing you

that the president of
our Croatian government

would be visiting you
upon our arrival in Zagreb.

would be visiting you
upon our arrival in Zagreb.

Your people never responded.

- I was never given
such information.

- This is a report
from one of our officers

- This is a report
from one of our officers

stating that the
message was received

and signed for by
one Svetozar Ritting,

and signed for by
one Svetozar Ritting,

isn't he your closest associate.

(suspenseful music)

(suspenseful music)

- One man's account does
not make it a true account.

- You don't say.

You know this?

"This is to certify
that I Svetozar Ritting

"This is to certify
that I Svetozar Ritting

I've received the request that
Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac"

with a signature at the bottom.

- I see it, yes.

- So either you or
your associate is lying.

- So either you or
your associate is lying.

I am not and he is.

I am not and he is.

(dramatic music)

- Yes.

- Yes.

- He told me that an
officer came one evening,

informing him that
one of our parishioners

had been involved in an accident

and that he needed confirmation,

that indeed it was the
same that we all knew.

- Can you trust
those closest to you?

- Can you trust
those closest to you?

From what I gather your
associate is not someone

who likes you very much.

I thought loyalty was the
foundation of the church.

- I had no knowledge
that anyone was coming.

- Whether you did or you
didn't, would it make a
difference?

The fact is you didn't think
we'd reach Zagreb, did you?

The fact is you didn't think
we'd reach Zagreb, did you?

Certainly not as fast as we did.

You have been preaching
against communism from day one.

You have been preaching
against communism from day one.

These are facts,
indisputable facts.

I didn't think you'd
reach Zagreb fast.

I didn't think you'd
reach Zagreb fast.

- Finally, you admit it.

So could it surprise you
that I had no other option,

So could it surprise you
that I had no other option,

but to isolate you?

- It's funny how so
many words can be used

- It's funny how so
many words can be used

to mask the actual meaning.

I am the only word
that can truly paint

what was done to me.

- And what is that word?

Detention?

Detention?

- Imprisonment.

What surprised me more is
that you free me from prison

What surprised me more is
that you free me from prison

two days ago and asked
me to come here today.

- You would like to paint me
as someone void of mercy.

But when I tell you
that many proposed

you'll be relieved
permanently of your duties,

and I was the one who said,
no, let me meet this, man.

and I was the one who said,
no, let me meet this, man.

Let me look into his eyes.

when he tells me his
version of the truth.

when he tells me his
version of the truth.

- And the army you defeated
wanted me gone as well.

- That's a convenient statement.

- That's a convenient statement.

Can you prove its validity?

- And where's the
proof of your army

you want to become
besides you saying it?

The difference, being that
I'm the head commander

The difference, being that
I'm the head commander

of the Yugoslav army, and
they have to listen to me.

I have many subordinates,
but above me is nothing

and no one, least
of all your God.

- Extremists on the
right one to be gone.

There was not curation
enough based on my sentence

There was not curation
enough based on my sentence

to defend the innocent,
that is the duty of the church.

There was credible
information relayed to me

by the former military Tatia,

by the former military Tatia,

the German command in Zagreb,

that I was in
the liquidationist.

- So you're saying the Germans
saved you from assassination.

- So you're saying the Germans
saved you from assassination.

- Oh, they had the
last word on everything,

so yes, it's likely.

so yes, it's likely.

Assassination of the
murder of the highest

serving Catholic church official

would do that government
more harm than good.

would do that government
more harm than good.

And me being gone, won't
do you any good either.

(phone ringing)

(phone ringing)

- Yes, tell them
to wait a little long.

All right, I'll come
get some coffee.

All right, I'll come
get some coffee.

They're waiting for
me to call them in.

They're waiting for
me to call them in.

The two of us need to come to
an agreement on the basic idea

The two of us need to come to
an agreement on the basic idea

of how the church of
Croatia should go on.

- The church will
remain as it has.

- Archbishop time is passing
and Belgrade's waiting.

- Archbishop time is passing
and Belgrade's waiting.

I have to tell you
that a lot of people

were not very enthusiastic
about our meeting.

- Belgrade has always
been against me.

- Belgrade has always
been against me.

- And why do you think that is?

- I am a Croat.

- That's all.

- That's plenty.

- So am I.

- So am I.

I've never presented
itself as a problem

when I was there.

- You share the same ideals.

To you that is a stronger
bond than one through faith

To you that is a stronger
bond than one through faith

because you have none.

- Belgrade wasn't
always against you.

King Alexander himself
gave permission for you

to be the head of the
Catholic church of Yugoslavia.

- He understood that the biggest
obstacles the kingdom faced

- He understood that the biggest
obstacles the kingdom faced

was how it behave towards
occurrence in the Catholic
church.

- Is it true that you once
told the King that the church

- Is it true that you once
told the King that the church

is the only institution
capable of opposing

the approach and communism.

- Something in
that sense was said,

- Something in
that sense was said,

and I still hold
that to be true.

- That the church would
defeat communism.

- Time will tell.

- Time will tell.

- Two months after
speaking with you,

the King dies at the hands
of an assassin in France.

the King dies at the hands
of an assassin in France.

Some people believe
you were involved in this.

- They may blame me for
potential floods, tidal waves,

- They may blame me for
potential floods, tidal waves,

earthquakes, I
wouldn't be surprised.

- No, they wouldn't
blame me for these things,

they would blame God.

- King Alexander did
confirm me as the Archbishop,

but only off the
two previous options

were deemed more
nationalistic than me.

were deemed more
nationalistic than me.

- I guess the King
was misinformed.

- The fact that I served in
the army gave the impression-

- You would be obedient.

- You would be obedient.

- Perhaps.

But I had no desire in
becoming Archbishop.

I felt I wasn't worthy.

I felt I wasn't worthy.

- Then why did you accept?

- I obeyed the calling
in the name of the cross

that I wear around my neck.

that I wear around my neck.

- My late mother
was just as devout.

She bore a lot of children.

- Did she pray often?

- Oh yes.

Although I think God probably
wasn't paying attention.

- You find it a
weakness to pray.

- I find it a warm blanket

when nature surrounding
us becomes cold.

when nature surrounding
us becomes cold.

- I had heard you suffered
a terrible bout of pneumonia

that you almost died.

- That's true.

- That's true.

I endured.

- Did you pray in that moment?

(dramatic suspenseful music)

(dramatic suspenseful music)

- I've endure when
things become tough,

- I've endure when
things become tough,

even seeming insurmountable.

It stirs something inside of me.

- You didn't answer my question.

- You didn't answer my question.

- I always sleep, uncovered.

My mother would yell
at me for that, old habits.

My mother would yell
at me for that, old habits.

- It's never too late to change.

If it is for the good.

- You need to
acknowledge the reality

- You need to
acknowledge the reality

of your current
situation, Aloysius,

it's useless to go to
mass in the afternoon.

it's useless to go to
mass in the afternoon.

Time is running out.

- I fear we Will never
come to a resolution.

- We can, if we
want to, both of us,

- We can, if we
want to, both of us,

we hold the keys to
how this land will go on.

What kind of a world
we wish to live in.

We can agree, that help
is what people need, yes?

We can agree, that help
is what people need, yes?

Our approach is a different,
but our goal is the same.

Our approach is a different,
but our goal is the same.

I don't believe
in life after death.

And I certainly don't
avoid the pleasures

of this earthly existence,
as you can see,

of this earthly existence,
as you can see,

but not a single soul can
say that I haven't made

great sacrifices for the
beliefs that I fight for.

great sacrifices for the
beliefs that I fight for.

Going into the
forest with barely

a hundred like-minded idealists,

in 1941 when everybody
believed that Hitler would
prevail.

in 1941 when everybody
believed that Hitler would
prevail.

- If it weren't for the
long Russian winters

that also took down Napoleon,

nothing would have
been able to rescue you

and your like like-minded
idealists, not even communism.

and your like like-minded
idealists, not even communism.

Then the west
united saving Stalin,

Then the west
united saving Stalin,

giving them a free pass.

- Poetic justice.

Everybody has to pay
the price sooner or later.

- And if the British
and the Americans

- And if the British
and the Americans

had landed on the Adriatic,

then the story would
perhaps be written

in a completely different line.

- Would you forgotten that
the British and the Americans

- Would you forgotten that
the British and the Americans

were not fond of
Marx and his ideas.

- Just last year, I assured
Prime Minister Churchill

- Just last year, I assured
Prime Minister Churchill

that I wasn't going to introduce
communism to Yugoslavia.

- Then you're not an
idealist, you were a politician.

another chameleon.

- I'm a survivor.

My goal is to preserve
Yugoslavia at any cost,

the imperialist, as
well as the Soviets,

let us down at Yalta, and
still I managed to get aid

let us down at Yalta, and
still I managed to get aid

from both the west and the east.

from both the west and the east.

- Marxism or communism of
any kind is not going to save us

nor the nations you are
uniting is new Yugoslavia,

nor the nations you are
uniting is new Yugoslavia,

but now it is being
misused to mask

or perverse horror
on the horizon.

- I insisted in
the politic bureau

- I insisted in
the politic bureau

that the Croatia-Serbia
issue is the most important one

that needs to be solved
with the help of the Orthodox

that needs to be solved
with the help of the Orthodox

and the Catholic churches.

But in Belgrade, they say
that you can't be talked to.

But in Belgrade, they say
that you can't be talked to.

And after speaking to you now,

I'd say that's a bit of
an understatement.

Stepinac is stubborn,
they'd say, a fundamentalist.

Stepinac is stubborn,
they'd say, a fundamentalist.

And I'd use the argument
that the Germans

And I'd use the argument
that the Germans

killed your brother in
your hometown Kracic,

because they knew how
close the two of you were.

And Belgrade's response
is that in your hometown,

And Belgrade's response
is that in your hometown,

we had one of the bloodiest
battles of our whole campaign.

we had one of the bloodiest
battles of our whole campaign.

In a single day in 1943,
500 of our fighters died.

- Now my hometown is the enemy.

- Now my hometown is the enemy.

- Do you see now,
how far this reaches?

You say your
neighbor killed your cat,

he proclaimed
you killed his dog,

you say he poisoned your cow,

you say he poisoned your cow,

and in return, you
burned down his stable.

This way another conflict
in the future is certain,

and why must more
blood to be spilled?

and why must more
blood to be spilled?

- You have to first agree
what version of history

is the accurate one.

You speak of a new beginning,

You speak of a new beginning,

but what has happening now
since you've liberated Zagreb.

- I told you, this
war didn't end

with the liberation of Zagreb.

with the liberation of Zagreb.

- But the war in
Zagreb it's over,

and yet a large number
of civilians, women,

children, the elderly,
all throughout Croatia

children, the elderly,
all throughout Croatia

are moving west
fearing retaliation.

- If the enemy
surrendered their arms,

nothing would
happen to the civilians.

nothing would
happen to the civilians.

- Surrendering to your units

would've been
death to the soldiers.

- They are the enemy.

We have to radically
cleanse our home.

We have to radically
cleanse our home.

- What is happening is an
Exodus of an entire nation,

unprecedented
in Croatian history,

unprecedented
in Croatian history,

thousands upon
thousands of being killed.

I'm not blind to any man's
desire to seek revenge.

However, primitive it is
in my eyes, but civilian-

However, primitive it is
in my eyes, but civilian-

- How many of the allies
killed at the end of the war?

- How many of the allies
killed at the end of the war?

Entire cities level
to the ground.

Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden
massacred and not accidentally.

Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden
massacred and not accidentally.

- And how are they better?

- They are not!

But the winners get to define
how their sins are remembered.

But the winners get to define
how their sins are remembered.

I wouldn't even call them sins.

- What would you call them?

- Prevention of
selective amnesia.

- Killing of 200,000
civilians is necessary

to prevent people
from not forgetting.

- You have fallen under the
influence of the enemies rumors.

- You have fallen under the
influence of the enemies rumors.

- Entire families
are being erased.

- The number you just
stated is propaganda

spread by the enemy.

spread by the enemy.

You are treading through
muddy waters, Archbishop.

- You can silence
me and others for now,

- You can silence
me and others for now,

but witnesses have escaped.

The truth will come out
despite being locked in graves,

and pits all
throughout this land.

and pits all
throughout this land.

- We can agree that both
sides have their graves and
pits.

- I am supposed to keep silent?

Forget, in front of you even.

Forget, in front of you even.

A fellow Croat, a
communist of all things

from a Catholic family,

a fighter for a new and
more just world, as you say,

a fighter for a new and
more just world, as you say,

I would betray the cross
that I wear around my neck,

and a vow that I
chose to live by

and a vow that I
chose to live by

if I did not speak the truth.

Yes, the truth.

Not the truth as I see
it, but the truth that is.

Not the truth as I see
it, but the truth that is.

Belgrade has you
blinded, yet you forget

Belgrade has you
blinded, yet you forget

they would give away
with you if you express

anything other than what
they say is true and right.

- Have you considered that
what you think of as the truth

- Have you considered that
what you think of as the truth

might not be a such?

People can be wrong.

People can be wrong.

The truth is likely to be
somewhere in the middle,

a place nobody wants to visit.

- The march of death
of our people, yours too

- The march of death
of our people, yours too

is happening now as we speak.

In times of peace,
people are still being killed.

Croatians in your new
Yugoslavia will not forgive or
forget.

- No it must, that's in
the Bible remember?

- No it must, that's in
the Bible remember?

- They will.

If the evil needs to keep
happening, stop being denied.

- Then they shouldn't forget
that just a few days ago

- Then they shouldn't forget
that just a few days ago

I issued an executive
order to our troops

to stop the killing
of prisoners of war

or others arrested
by our forces.

or others arrested
by our forces.

- If you issued such an order,
why is it not being followed?

- Unlike God, I can't
oversee everything yet.

- Unlike God, I can't
oversee everything yet.

Anyone sabotaging
orders will be punished.

Anyone sabotaging
orders will be punished.

I've done as much as
I could within reason.

- This land is the cradle
of European Christianity,

- This land is the cradle
of European Christianity,

a place that prevented the Turks

from the conquest of Europe.

Right now, the choice is
between you and Pavelic.

Right now, the choice is
between you and Pavelic.

And to whose
swords you wish to die.

If he picks his side,
his neighbor does not,

it means he has to
take up arms and kill

it means he has to
take up arms and kill

in the name of what?

Some ideology, both of
which are destined to fail.

- I warned you, we
can't talk like this.

- I warned you, we
can't talk like this.

We weren't reaching
agreement if this continues,

you are constantly equating
our struggle with the fascist.

- Death on either side is death.

- Death on either side is death.

The pain, those coasters
feel is still the same

left or right up.

- A price gets paid for making
the wrong choice in a war.

- A price gets paid for making
the wrong choice in a war.

- The curse of King
Zvonimir lives on,

it's a plague that
refuses to die.

it's a plague that
refuses to die.

- I've heard of it.

That's a folk tale.

A fable.

- That's what you don't
seem to understand.

Our people who have
never been allowed

to write their own history,
have no other option,

to write their own history,
have no other option,

but to pass it on through talk
and language as teachings.

So when Kings Zvonimir was
about to be stoned to death

So when Kings Zvonimir was
about to be stoned to death

by his own faithful countrymen,

he laid a curse upon them

that they would forever
be subserving to foreigners

that they would forever
be subserving to foreigners

and unworthy of their own land.

- I know the story.

- And ever since
Croatians have fallen

under the rule of Hungry,

and then the Turks,
Austrian, Italian, Serbs,

and foreigners as always find
a small number of sycophants

who wanted their protection,
serving their own interests.

who wanted their protection,
serving their own interests.

Raise the hand against
their own flesh and blood.

- Every single subject
raised with you ends with God

- Every single subject
raised with you ends with God

and Croat.

- Because I am a Croat
and a Catholic, it's tragically,

one isn't allowed to mention it

one isn't allowed to mention it

without being
labeled a nationalist.

- Intolerance grows once
people start pounding their
chest

proclaiming their so-called
national allegiance.

proclaiming their so-called
national allegiance.

- Intolerance arises
when one of the groups

is not respected and
attempts to meet to eradicate
it.

is not respected and
attempts to meet to eradicate
it.

When Croats
remembered their paths,

we were accused of
wanting a great Croatia.

Why?

So that others can
conceal their own great

So that others can
conceal their own great

state potentially.

- The system we defeated
wanted a great Croatia.

Did you see how far it got?

This is why communism
is a progressive idea

because internationalism,

it raises national divisions
and prevents national conflic.

it raises national divisions
and prevents national conflic.

- You'll have trouble seeing
it through in Yugoslavia,

the Serbs will never
abandon their obsession

the Serbs will never
abandon their obsession

with either transforming
everybody into Serbs

or subjugating them.

They will focus on
us, Croats the most,

They will focus on
us, Croats the most,

don't forget that.

And since you've brought it up,

Christianity transcended
these divisions

long before communism with
this message of love thy self,

long before communism with
this message of love thy self,

as thy neighbor.

But nowhere in
the Bible does it say

But nowhere in
the Bible does it say

you should forget once
mother, once father,

once grandfather,
great-grandfather

or avoid thinking
about one's roots.

or avoid thinking
about one's roots.

Don't you care
about your family?

That you ask yourself who
they were, where they came from.

- I've spent more time
with you than was planned.

I've given you an
opportunity to talk,

to vent your grievances
something I didn't have to.

to vent your grievances
something I didn't have to.

This was really
at my discretion.

- Well, then, is a
thank you enough?

- Well, then, is a
thank you enough?

- We have to get to
the matter at hand,

the obstacle of Croatia
and Yugoslavia will be solved

the obstacle of Croatia
and Yugoslavia will be solved

only if we reach an agreement
on the most important issue,

the relationship between your
church and our government.

the relationship between your
church and our government.

- And how do you see
that coming to pass?

- You and the Catholic
church must become our ally.

- You and the Catholic
church must become our ally.

You must remove yourself from
the governance of the Vatican,

be a church that is ruled by
you and your fellow worshipers

be a church that is ruled by
you and your fellow worshipers

are not by religious
bureaucrats sitting in Rome.

- That's the reason
you call for me?

- Yugoslavia and
Croatia is part of it,

- Yugoslavia and
Croatia is part of it,

must be an independent
Republic deciding its own fate.

At the moment, you are
dependent on the Vatican

At the moment, you are
dependent on the Vatican

for your decisions, a state
that was and will always be

a foreign Italian entity to us.

a foreign Italian entity to us.

Just two years ago, it was
part of a fascist movement

that fought against
us on the free world.

that fought against
us on the free world.

This is something
I know you'll deny,

but these are facts
you must accept.

- Italy freed itself from
fascism during the war.

- Italy freed itself from
fascism during the war.

The Vatican was made a
sovereign state in 1929
specifically

so no one could claim
it as protector of Italy,

but the Vatican is
unique to the world.

It has no military
or police, politicians,

or diplomacy of
any kind like others.

or diplomacy of
any kind like others.

The Vatican is a place where
Jesus legacy is preserved.

- A legacy began by Romans
in Rome after they crucified
him.

- A legacy began by Romans
in Rome after they crucified
him.

The very man they worship now.

Pavelic went there to pray
for God to give him the strength

Pavelic went there to pray
for God to give him the strength

to kill in his name.

And what did the Vatican do?

Not a thing.

- If he did go, it was
never an official visit

- If he did go, it was
never an official visit

as head of state, and he was
never received by the Pope.

If asking weren't interested
in meeting with Pavelic.

- Come on now, Aloysius
nothing in politics is
accidental.

- Come on now, Aloysius
nothing in politics is
accidental.

He may not have been
officially received by the Pope,

He may not have been
officially received by the Pope,

but the Vatican shrewdly
avoids getting thrust

into the sewer when
those near them fall into it.

- I informed the
Vatican of the crimes

- I informed the
Vatican of the crimes

perpetrated on creation
soil during the war

by both sides equally.

by both sides equally.

And anyone who wishes
can visit the Vatican.

You too as a Catholic had
occurred can do so as well.

You too as a Catholic had
occurred can do so as well.

Nothing is preventing you.

- I'm sure the art
is worth the trip.

(phone ringing)

- Should you answer that?

- Should you answer that?

Perhaps they wish to
bring you more coffee.

- It'll stop.

- It'll stop.

It is crucial for us that
you distance yourself

from the Vatican in some
way, the rest will be easy.

from the Vatican in some
way, the rest will be easy.

- The Cathedral in Zagreb
was built stone by stone

over a thousand years.

It was built as a spiritual
and religious union

It was built as a spiritual
and religious union

of the Croatians with
the Vatican and God.

It's just as old as
Paris as Rotterdam.

It's just as old as
Paris as Rotterdam.

1300 years have
passed since our nation

adopted the Catholic faith

again, through the
intermediation of Rome.

again, through the
intermediation of Rome.

- You are returning
to ancient history.

- There is no present
without a clear understanding

- There is no present
without a clear understanding

of the past.

That's the mistake politicians
make when they attempt

to resolve current
issues by making a quick

and superficial
break from the past,

and superficial
break from the past,

you can cut a tree
down above its roots,

but 10 new branches
sprout when its surface.

but 10 new branches
sprout when its surface.

- Forget preaching for a
moment and be realistic.

- The reality is communists
choose to ignore the roots.

As if everything originated
with them and by their-

As if everything originated
with them and by their-

- You're repeating yourself.

- 1941 of all years,
marked 1300 years

since we adopted
Christianity our faith.

- The same year you stood by
the wrong side when war began.

- 1300 years of
loyalty, Mr. Broz.

- I am the General Secretary
of the Communist party

- I am the General Secretary
of the Communist party

of Yugoslavia, and as
such, I am known Tito!

I believe I have earned that.

- I am addressing
you now as a Croat

- I am addressing
you now as a Croat

and son of a Catholic family,

something I hope you
haven't forgotten, Tito.

something I hope you
haven't forgotten, Tito.

- It's a little late in
the day for that now,

- It's a little late in
the day for that now,

let's just stick to that.

Unless you're thinking
of re-baptizing me.

Unless you're thinking
of re-baptizing me.

- Miracles do occur.

- I have admiration
for your tenacity.

- I have admiration
for your tenacity.

And I do understand you.

And I do understand you.

Do you understand me?

Do you understand me?

- God wanted us both
you and I to be here

- God wanted us both
you and I to be here

in this moment
in time in history,

the future will judge us on
how we act in this moment.

the future will judge us on
how we act in this moment.

But our history,
Croatian history,

and the history of our
faith began 1300 years ago.

and the history of our
faith began 1300 years ago.

For centuries the Vatican
has stood by us, prayed for ,

For centuries the Vatican
has stood by us, prayed for ,

and we have been there for them.

It was here that the bedrock
of Christianity was defended.

It was here that the bedrock
of Christianity was defended.

And now you wished for me
to just forget it, set it aside,

And now you wished for me
to just forget it, set it aside,

erase it?

So that I can help you reunite
and idea founded in atheism?

So that I can help you reunite
and idea founded in atheism?

In the name of every
Croat living and gone

I will not do that.

Not now, not ever.

Not now, not ever.

- The Vatican's tentacles
overreach their boundaries.

- The Vatican's tentacles
overreach their boundaries.

I see the connection you
seem to have with them,

but I can't accept a foreign
entity to have so much power.

but I can't accept a foreign
entity to have so much power.

I can't allow it.

- To Vatican is not
run like a government.

- Well, perhaps we could
learn a thing or two from them

because they've
managed to govern without

because they've
managed to govern without

officially governing
for 2000 years.

- Spoken like a true atheist.

- Spoken like a true atheist.

- I don't hide my disbelief.

Just like you don't
hide your belief.

- So what created us?

- You've just given me
a lesson in the history

of the church, and now you
want me to give you my version

of the church, and now you
want me to give you my version

of what the universe is.

- I've always wondered
how an atheist

can believe in love
and not believe in God.

can believe in love
and not believe in God.

- God and love are not the same.

- One cannot believe
in love without God

or God without love.

or God without love.

- That as a rabbit hole.

- In what way?

- If I tell you that
I believe in love.

- You believe in love?

- You believe in love?

- I do.
- Well that's enough.

- You asked.

- Go on.

- Go on.

- I believe that we are
a fortunate accident

one that has the capacity
for beauty to create it,

one that has the capacity
for beauty to create it,

to enjoy it, live
with it and by it.

to enjoy it, live
with it and by it.

But do I believe
that God created us?

No.

- And you've made
inquiries to be sure.

- And you've made
inquiries to be sure.

- Spiritual or physical.

- I mean, you said
there is no presence

of any physical evidence.

- Well, no, there isn't.

- Well, no, there isn't.

- And that may be true,

but I'd argue that there
are millions around the world

who without the actual
physical presence of God

who without the actual
physical presence of God

have felt it.

- When people want to believe

- When people want to believe

their belief tends to cloud
their judgment, much like yours.

- I have felt God in every
step I've taken in my life.

- I have felt God in every
step I've taken in my life.

- You speak of love, but
you've never kissed a woman.

- You speak of love, but
you've never kissed a woman.

People like you,
you stand at the altar,

People like you,
you stand at the altar,

handing out lessons
speaking of things

you yourself have
never experienced.

How could you, what am I saying?

The church won't allow it.

If God created us, as
you say he did, then why,

If God created us, as
you say he did, then why,

why must his emissaries
people like you

why must his emissaries
people like you

mute your human desires?

Is that Christian?

Is that Christian?

Is it love?

I'd say it isn't.

- Our love belongs
to the worshipers.

- Our love belongs
to the worshipers.

- Oh, forgive me, but shit
doesn't suddenly turn into gd

just because it comes
out of your mouth.

What would you call
your talk on what love is?

What would you call
your talk on what love is?

Theory or practice, which is it?

Theory or practice, which is it?

- I did sacrifice a
different kind of life

for what I have now, yes.

for what I have now, yes.

But I have no regrets.

- That's not what
I'm talking about.

- I have never kissed a woman.

I don't know what
that feeling is like, yes,

I don't know what
that feeling is like, yes,

you have me beat.

I will never have children.

Perhaps the one aspect
of all you mentioned

that rings inside
my heart is that,

but I have love inside me.

The love for my people
and the love of my country.

To you that may
seem foolish, but to me,

To you that may
seem foolish, but to me,

it gives me purpose.

- I want an agreement
between you and me,

- I want an agreement
between you and me,

between the church
and the government

to distance yourself
from the Vatican.

I am giving you an
opportunity to live in peace,

I am giving you an
opportunity to live in peace,

to co-exist.

If you don't take
advantage of this,

I'm afraid things will
go downhill rather fast.

- I will not back
down from my stance.

- And what if you were to
take refuge in the Vatican

- And what if you were to
take refuge in the Vatican

for awhile, a
spiritual sabbatical.

- I don't need the
Vatican to be spiritual.

- I don't need the
Vatican to be spiritual.

- You don't need
the Vatican, yes.

- You are trying to trick me.

- You the Vatican.

- I don't need it to be
spiritual, I need to for
guidance.

- Well, that's
the thing, isn't it?

- Your guidance isn't
your, you're a mere puppet

of the pope.

- And aren't you one of Stalin?

- And aren't you one of Stalin?

- For your own good you should
rethink your present decision

- For your own good you should
rethink your present decision

for the sake of the future.

We'll work to further
consolidate our power

and whoever opposes us will
encounter a monumental obstacle.

and whoever opposes us will
encounter a monumental obstacle.

The revolution continues
by all available means

The revolution continues
by all available means

legal and justified.

- The Stalin trials
with bulk and twists.

- There are people who
want to see you prosecution.

- There are people who
want to see you prosecution.

- Many would.

- Prosecuted for war crimes.

- Prosecuted for war crimes.

There is evidence here
to plant a seed of doubt

and the world will never see
you as an innocent man again,

and the world will never see
you as an innocent man again,

it's all it takes a single seed.

- I am ready for whatever
storms may lay ahead.

- I am ready for whatever
storms may lay ahead.

- You don't want to
be running into the mist

like a goose, few
have survived it.

I hope I'm being clear.

- Crystal clear.

But let me be clear, our
church has not refused

to work with your government,

it is in fact, the
other way around.

it is in fact, the
other way around.

We've been told
what to do, dictated,

believers being ban
not to attend mass

believers being ban
not to attend mass

and yet you proclaim freedom
and protection of religion.

The youth of being politicized
and encouraged to oppose

The youth of being politicized
and encouraged to oppose

all those who
aren't in the party.

The printing and
publishing of our books

and papers is being suspended.

and papers is being suspended.

Charitable work, and the
work of nuns forbidden.

Not to mention the priest
is still being imprisoned

or simply disappeared
without a trace.

or simply disappeared
without a trace.

So tell me what would
happen if we surrendered

So tell me what would
happen if we surrendered

and leave the Vatican,
what would become of us?

and leave the Vatican,
what would become of us?

- I'd say that would
be the wisest decision

you could make for your
believers and for yourself,

you could make for your
believers and for yourself,

but I'm not in the
business of persuasion.

- This entire conversation
has been just that.

- This entire conversation
has been just that.

- Well, if it has,

then I'm obviously
not very good at it.

- I will not abandon the
vow I've made at the church,

- I will not abandon the
vow I've made at the church,

to God and to the faithful.

- You've made that
abundantly clear.

- You've made that
abundantly clear.

But time isn't on your side,

nor of the symbol you're
wearing around your neck.

nor of the symbol you're
wearing around your neck.

I'd hate to see it look
down upon one day

I'd hate to see it look
down upon one day

just like the Swastika case.

- I choose to have faith
in the one who sacrificed

- I choose to have faith
in the one who sacrificed

himself for us.

And I'm convinced that your
red star will never replace

And I'm convinced that your
red star will never replace

the symbol I wear.

- You've said no to
me the entire evening.

I'm not accustomed to this.

So permit me for request.

I'd like to hear
one yes from you.

I'd like to hear
one yes from you.

- That depends what
you're asking of me.

- You have to say
yes and I'll ask,

but you have to
say yes beforehand,

but you have to
say yes beforehand,

you can trust me this ones.

- Only if you accept
a gift I have for you.

- Only if you accept
a gift I have for you.

- A gift?

- Yes.

- I can't say no to a gift.

- Then I will say yes.

- Then I will say yes.

- To new ideas.

- To truth.

- Aloysius, perhaps I've
been all wrong about you.

- Aloysius, perhaps I've
been all wrong about you.

- Well, I am a son of
a winemaker after all.

- Now, your gift, I'm excited.

- Now, your gift, I'm excited.

- So that you
remember your roots,

and always know
that he is there for you,

and always know
that he is there for you,

even if you choose
not to believe.

- Very thoughtful
of you, thank you.

The meeting's over, get
the car ready to escort

The meeting's over, get
the car ready to escort

the Archbishop
back to his residence.

(recorder whirring)

(recorder whirring)

Goodnight to you, Aloysius.

And good luck.

And good luck.

(soft music)

(soft music)

- Can I leave you
with one final thought.

- Can I leave you
with one final thought.

- Of course?

- When the great
artist Voltaire,

who had been a harsh critic
of the church his entire life

who had been a harsh critic
of the church his entire life

was on his death bed,
a friend asked him,

was on his death bed,
a friend asked him,

"Voltaire, is there a God?"

To which he replied, "Perhaps
now is not the right time

To which he replied, "Perhaps
now is not the right time

to make new enemies."

May God be with
you, Marshall Tito.

May God be with
you, Marshall Tito.

(gentle orchestral music)

(gentle orchestral music)

(dramatic music)

(dramatic music)

(gentle piano music)