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Good evening. If you've been
anywhere near

a television set or a radio these
past few hours,

you already know that John Lennon of
the Beatles is dead.

He was shot late this evening in
front of his apartment building in
New York City.

Apparently he was killed almost
immediately.

The man who shot John Lennon walked
up to the musician

as he was leaving his limousine.

According to eyewitnesses he said
"Mr Lennon" and then fired at him

point blank at least five times.

MAN: I just remember feeling at the
very lowest I had ever felt.

Feeling like I was nothing, like I
was nobody.

Just totally useless.

Self-esteem smashed under a giant
concrete pillar.

This was like, "Hey, I'm going to be
a big king here.

I'm really going to be somebody."

But it's much more than attention,
it's like...

..like being a king.

Give me the opportunity to kill John
Lennon and I will do it.

NEWSCASTER: It's now 14 hours since
John Lennon was shot

at the entrance to the Dakota
building on West 72nd Street.

As for the suspect...

Mark David Chapman.Mark David
Chapman.Mark David Chapman.

Nobody knows what the motive was

in what seems to be a totally
senseless killing.

CHAPMAN: And I started slipping into
an abyss that ended in murder.

So I became Holden Caulfield...with
a sword.

It was like a train hitting another
train on the same track head on.

All of my nobody-ness and all of his
somebody-ness collided.

I found my identity in being a
crusader

and launching a crusade against
phoney-ness.

The book became the reason John
Lennon was killed.

Not my confusion, not my insaneness,

not my trigger finger, but the book.

INTERVIEWER: What do you mean by
peace?

Just...all its...all its aspects.

Peace of mind, peace in the street,

peace in your own home, peace
throughout the world.

Really it means no violence.

(INDISTINCT RADIO CHATTER)

RECORDED VOICE: An inmate at New
York State Department of Corrections

and Community Supervision.

To accept this free call press one.

(KEYPAD BEEPS)Thank you, you may
start the conversation now.

I've been thinking a lot since the
last time we talked and...

I've been really struggling to answer
questions

about good and evil

and where that line is.

CHAPMAN ON PHONE: Yeah.And where
people get pushed, shoved, pulled
across it.

You just hit on something Jack,
something huge.

There has been a definite change in
my understanding of what happened

between when we talked for the book
and then now, 30 years later.

And it's a definitive change cos
it's like rock bottom.

I went down to the very rock-bottom
level, it took me a long time.

Right.With the Lord's help...

..I can finally say it now.

My name is Jack Jones.

I'm a journalist nominated,
fortunately,

three times for the Pulitzer Prize.

I stood my watch during the Vietnam
War

and I came home driven to write about
religion

and violence and human behaviour.

Trying to unravel some of the
mysteries

as to why people kill other people.

I am the biographer of Mark David
Chapman,

the man who murdered John Lennon in
1980.

I meet very few humans who don't make
me think,

"There but for the grace of God go
I",

particularly the Vietnam vets that I
worked with in prison.

It's very much a feeling that I could
be sitting on the other side being
interviewed

unless a few things had clicked and
gone the right way for me.

Meeting people who, rather than
turning away,

listened to my story and tried to
help.

The best way I found to help was to
listen to other people

and try to tell their stories.

So, I began to pursue what I had
wanted to do since childhood,

which was become a writer.

Here are the original newspaper
plates and the photo that I took

after my first meetings with Mark
David Chapman.

I think he was composing a letter to
his wife in this photo

that he wanted me to mail her.

Quote from Sting -
"Once you've decided on a killing,

First you make a stone of your heart.

And if you find that your hands are
still willing,

You can turn a murder into art."

Murder By Numbers.

The astonishing thing

is that I ever wound up in a position
to be writing this story.

I guess I've always wondered whether
it was morally justified

to help bring about the sort of fame
and notoriety

that was a big part of why he
murdered John Lennon.

When I first met Mark,

he was very paranoid about me,

assumed that I was going to

fabricate a story about our meetings
for a quick buck.

I promised I wouldn't

and, eight years later,

I received a letter asking if I would
meet with him.

Dan Rather, Barbara Walters -

all the media stars had written him
personally

and he gave me about a three sentence
statement

that he asked me to have published.

And I said, "Mark, you've known me
many years now

and if you're serious about trying to
explain

why you did this horrible thing, then
let's sit down,

do a series of interviews and write a
book."

A week or two later I received a
letter

that he said was dictated by God.

And um...it was...it was God
telling Mark

that he should work with me and
produce the book

which became Let Me Take You Down.

He was still coming out of the
maelstrom of

bringing into focus the enormity

of what he had done
by murdering John Lennon.

And he realised that he was going to
have to be honest with himself.

My objective was to begin to
understand

why any human being would kill
another human being,

which had troubled me since the
Vietnam War.

Mark was very withdrawn.

I could sense some sort of rage still
there,

confusion, paranoia...

..and a great deal of mistrust.

But once Mark started...

..it began to spill.

CHAPMAN ON RECORDING: The day is
March 18th.

We're at Attica Correctional
Facility.

This is the official starting of the
project today,

and we decided to start with perhaps
a chronological view of my life

and what shaped my identity and why
I did it.

JONES:

Nothing.

No.

I would have shot him in the back,
just like I did,

and there was nothing could have
stopped me.

I would have gone back 100 times to
New York and tried to find him.

I was totally fixated on John Lennon

and I think I would have remained
fixated till his death.

JACK ON TAPE:

I did make choices, I made several
hundred choices.

It was a solution to destroy my
rage.

I was out of control and there's
nothing I could have done

that could have stopped me from
killing John Lennon.

I was born in Fort Worth, Texas,
May 10th 1955.

My father was an Air Force staff
sergeant.

My mother was a graduate nurse.

I wasn't deprived in any way of
anything.

My mother loved me, my father loved
me.

I had friends. But I was private.

And I could have fun for hours by
myself.

Maybe a lot of kids are like that
way, maybe it's not an unusual
thing.

His dad tried to be a good father,

take him to sporting events, school
activities,

and bought him, when he was
eight-years-old,

his first Beatle album.

CHAPMAN ON RECORDING: They were
coming to the Atlanta Stadium soon.

I don't remember asking my father if
I could go,

but I do remember asking him to
please, please

buy me their first record which was
called Meet The Beatles.

And I remember playing that record
over and over and over again.

I would often play it alone, when my
parents would leave,

and I would rock on the sofa.

And at one point I even took some
green plastic soldiers

and I would cut out little guitars
and place them over their guns.

And I would set them out in the
middle of the floor...

..and I'd play the record and have a
little concert

for the little people.

I remember thinking, "Wow!

Wouldn't it be great to be one of
these guys?"

Mark, at that time, had escaped into
his own fantasy world

where he would shut everything else
out

and turn to a village, you know, of
little people

who lived inside the walls of his
home.

I had the whole world of people
expanded in my mind

and they lived along the walls and
along the baseboard.

And they would get in elevators and
go up the side of the wall.

There was thousands of little
windows and everything.

And they would live there and I
would rock again on the sofa

and play music for them.

If he was having a bad day,

he would summon the little people and
he would kill off a bunch of them.

So, you had a disturbed child...

Rrarrgh! (ECHOES)

..whose father worked hard

but never could make enough money to
please his wife,

who had begun to feel that her own
life was sort of at a dead end

because of the man she had married.

He remembers her running into his
bedroom naked

and screaming, "Protect me."

So he found himself between his naked
mother and his father.

He contemplated killing his father.

And it was the little people

who talked him out of violence
against his own father.

And it was the little people

who tried, unsuccessfully,

to convince him not to murder John
Lennon.

His mother told him that anything he
wanted to do

he was going to be the very best at
it.

And he fully expected

that the world was going to open up
for him in that way

and that's not how things happened.

NEWSCASTER: 3,000 screaming
teenagers

are at New York's Kennedy airport to
greet, you guessed it, The Beatles.

MAN: The Beatles come to America for
the first time in February of 1964.

The Beatles were very nervous about
coming to America

because UK pop stars don't often
make it in America.

And when they land and there are
thousands of people

cheering them and welcoming them,
they are astonished.

They're flabbergasted by the
intensity of it,

the fans who stalk their every move,

who were trying to get into the
Plaza Hotel,

who follow them out to the park when
they do a photo shoot.

It's important to remember that, in
the British mind,

America was a land of fantasy.

America is the land where all of
these dreams come true.

So, for them, the biggest fantasy
that could come true

is that America would embrace them
and they'd become ideal Americans.

When they land that day at JFK, John
is 23-years-old.

He has a kid
who was born in 1963, Julian.

He has a wife named Cynthia.

He has adult responsibilities

that are starting to come in to play

at a moment when he didn't
necessarily expect them to arrive.

So, he's in a strange place.

He grew up in a complicated, by any
stretch, household.

Ultimately, he was raised by his
mother's sister, Mimi,

which gave him a sense of stability

that he was not going to get from
his mother Julia.

She's very smart, artistic

and she passes those things, one way
or another, onto her son.

But she will be ripped out of his
life in July 1958 in a car accident,

after leaving her sister Mimi's
home.

John used to describe the loss of
his mother as losing her twice.

He had lost her when he was very,
very young

and then, of course, he loses her
again

when she suffers that fateful
accident.

He would be set adrift yet again,
as he had been early in life.

CHAPMAN: They were in, like, another
orbit, another constellation.

I felt I was worthy of being in that
constellation.

I had these images of myself being
an artist, of being a brilliant man.

I had forced myself to believe I
really would become something.

And I thought I was destined for
something special.

REPORTER: Did you mean that the
Beatles are more popular that Christ?

This is Tommy Charles. If you, as an
American teenager,

are offended by statements from a
group of foreign singers,

which strike at the very basis of
our existence

as God-fearing patriotic citizens,

then we urge you to take your Beatle
records, pictures and souvenirs

to the pick-up points about to be
named.

And, on the night of the Beatles
appearance in Memphis, August 19th,

they will be destroyed in a huge
public bonfire

at a place to be named soon.

WOMACK: The summer of 1966,

an article is reprinted in Datebook
in the United States.

John Lennon's remarks about the
Beatles being bigger than Jesus.

A kind of hysteria emerged around
it.

And there were Beatles burnings
going on, riots.

There was an anger about it.

RILEY: When that quote ran in the
summer of '66,

they started getting death threats
and the Bible belt was holding
bonfires.

And the Ku Klux Klan shows up and is
protesting Beatle concerts.

It wasn't that it wasn't true,

it was just blasphemous to actually
come out and say it out loud.

We've reached a degree of popularity
that has never been seen before.

And John Lennon becomes branded,
really, from that point,

for the rest of his life,
as a kind of atheist.

LENNON: It doesn't matter about
people not liking our records or the
way we look or what we say.

You know, they're entitled to not
like us.

We're entitled not to have anything
to do with them

if we don't want to or not to regard
them.

The disc jockey, Tommy Charles, who
started this row off,

has said he won't play your records
until you've grown up a little.

I don't mind if he never plays them
again.

Do you mind being asked questions?

In America, people keep asking you
about Vietnam.

It seems silly to be in America and
for none of them to mention Vietnam,

as if nothing was happening. I mean,
you can't just keep quiet

about anything that's going on in the
world unless you're a monk.

Sorry, monks, I didn't mean it. I
meant actually.(CHUCKLES)

RILEY: He's always politically
engaged.

He's always reading the news in the
newspaper.

He's just against the war from a
moral standpoint.

He did not feel like it was his
right or his place

to be deeply critical of American
politics

until he was an American citizen.
So his message was always peace.

It was not "Get out of Vietnam",

it was, you know,
"The larger value here is peace."

And a huge antiwar movement starts
to bloom across American campuses

throughout 1965 and 1966 to 1967,

when you have your first march on
the Pentagon

and you have hundreds of thousands
of people descend on Washington.

So it's a deep generational divide
that develops there.

But Lennon is a spearhead of that
because he's antiwar,

he was anti-military-industrial,

he was anti the war machine.

And his point with Give Peace A
Chance

was if we invested that much in
peaceful means,

we might be in a better place.

CHAPMAN: He represented a spirit of
man at his best.

The struggle toward doing something
that's painful but that has to be
done.

The quest for truth and ultimately
the idealism

that made John Lennon John Lennon.

The idealism that there was a better
world,

you could be a better person
and you should try for it.

He was the first person that said
you could try for it

and maybe you'll get it.

He's the first person to say that
maybe it's practical putting up

billboards that say "War is over if
you want it." So he represented that

in man, the fact that there was a
part of your spirit that lived,

that could do so much better.

When the Beatles stop touring in
1966, a number of things occur.

One, John Lennon amps up his
songwriting.

The songs keep rolling out of him,
even when he's really depressed.

At the end of '66, when the marriage
is falling apart

and he's deeply into LSD,

he would just wake up and just
taking pills every day.

What we would call a wildly
out-of-control drug addict today.

In the '60s, he was simply carving
out

the rock-star lifestyle
that's a deep cliche now.

It was a kind of drug use that was,
"How can I make sense of me

and my position in the world and
where do I belong?

Even though I'm one of the most
beloved people in the world,

I feel empty, I don't have a lot of
self-love."

He meets Yoko Ono and this is a very
deeply pivotal moment in his life.

John will meet, in November 1966,
Yoko Ono.

He famously steps on a ladder and
looks through a telescope

and there's the word "Yes".

So he meets this woman who has this
kind of aggressive art aesthetic,

for lack of a better phrase.

He connects with her and John exists

in this kind of strange space in
time.

He has the familial experience back
at home

and then he's the rock star who
rides around with his driver

in the psychedelic Rolls-Royce,
imbibing tons of LSD.

And, meanwhile, he's met this one
woman

who connects with him in a certain
way about ideas.

So John is in a strange space during
this period.

NEWSREEL ANNOUNCER: Far from the
noise and pace of city life

in the cool, clear air of Rishikesh,
North India,

Pathe News reports from the
meditation retreat of Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi.

The man who, through transcendental
meditation,

is currently bringing peace of mind
to the Beatles.

His life begins to make a lot more
sense in 1968

when the Beatles throw themselves
into Eastern culture.

They go to India and to Rishikesh
with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

And he begins to realise that he's
been multiple people.

In short order, he breaks up his
marriage

and announces to the world
that he's with Yoko.

And John begins to solidify whom he
wants to be.

What he doesn't want is to be
constrained in the same ways

that he had felt in the mid 1960s.
He doesn't want that any more.

He would use his celebrity to argue
against the various wars

that his homeland and the United
States were engaged in at the time.

He will become a kind of leader of
the counterculture,

although he's more of a passive
leader

in comparison to a number of the
Americans who are participating.

I've always looked at their whole
trip to India and the Maharishi

as other Beatles gathering around
him and kind of saying,

"He needs a break form this. He's
out of control

and he keeps running into these
brick walls.

We need to take care of this guy and
get his dry a little bit."

And he comes back and he still has

years and years of lots of heavy
drug use

but he likes to talk about meeting
Yoko Ono

as, like, this redemptive moment for
him.

That this person really revealed to
him a lot more of who he really was

and how he could be more of the
person he really wanted to be,

but had not figured out how to do
yet.

We're going to stay in bed for seven
days

sort of instead of having a private
honeymoon, it's a private protest...

For the violence that's going in the
world.

We feel that instead of making war,
it's better to just stay in bed.

And grow your hair.Yes.For peace.
Let it grow till the peace comes.

So we're doing it for world peace,
you know.

And we believe that. Also it's a
joke.

Yoko Ono is very influential

in his thinking about his status as
a rock star

and what the possibilities are for
him to be an agent of change.

And I think she helps him
understand, "Look, you have

tremendous creative energy and you
could

start spreading messages of love and
peace on an even bigger scale

or a different kind of scale than
All You Need Is Love.

'Like think of that as a first
step.'

REPORTER: What about the future of
the Beatles?

Do you feel that you're still a
group?

You've gone through a lot of phases
-Sure, sure.

We're closer now, you know, than we
ever were.

The Beatles had built a very intense
connection with fans

and we will see it continue after
they no longer exist as a unit.

CHAPMAN: I remember the first time I
did LSD.

I was in my room... (VOICE ECHOES)

..and, of course,
my room had changed,

the music had changed and my life
had changed.

I got the stereo and the headphones

and used to listen to Hendrix and
the Doors and the Beatles.

The Beatles were no longer the
Beatles that I had rocked

and putting on little concerts for
the little people.

The Beatles now were into
psychedelics,

they were into Hindu meditation,

they were into long hair and beards

and they fit right along with my
plans.

I was a hippy.

I had long hair.

We were among the first in the whole
high school.

It was the first time I'd ever been
part of something.

Aged 15, Mark enters Colombia High
School

and, always wanting to be part of the
cutting edge,

Mark embarked on a life as a hippy
kid.

And within a year or so,
ran away from home.

Like a lot of kids who don't excel,
either athletically or academically,

Mark was a target of the so-called
"jock" crowd.

I really wasn't that athletically
inclined.

I was more of a thinker.

And I remember receiving some flack
about that and that really hurt.

That crushed me.

And it was just humiliating. I
didn't know what to do.

I thought I was going to be a tough
guy

and I went down there to pick a
fight with him.

And he laid into my face with about
four or five punches

and it really stung me and I started
crying.

For the rest of my life, I couldn't
deal with violent behaviour,

I couldn't deal with conflict. I
always had to bury conflict.

It made me feel scared inside. It
made me a coward

because I didn't like pain, I didn't
like what it felt like.

He remembers being proud of being
called a dirty hippy

because that meant that he had some
identity.

Since childhood, for whatever reason,

he had struggled to define himself
and be part of a group.

As a dirty hippy, he was something.

That continued up until the point

that two older dirty hippies robbed
him and left him on the beach.

That's where all of his faith in the
counterculture

and peace and love and hippy world
kind of fell apart.

And desperation began calling out

to what he perceived to be God
to come and save him.

If my soul could be considered a
dark round room,

then I invited Christ into that dark
room

and the Holy Spirit came in,
metaphysically,

entwining and meshing itself with my
soul.

Behold, new things have begun.

Mark was an immediate star in the
evangelical circles.

He was a prime example of what God
can do,

at least on the outside,

to people who accept him as their
personal saviour.

One of the memories that his friends
have from that time

is at one of their Christian youth
group meetings,

after John Lennon released the song
Imagine There's No Heaven,

Mark bringing his guitar and singing,

"Imagine John Lennon is dead."

They were just stunned.
"Wait a minute, we're Christians.

We don't kill people, we don't
imagine people dead."

WOMACK: Imagine is a deceptively
complex song.

It's less about atheism, if it was
at all.

It's trying to challenge people to
imagine

that you didn't have to keep
divvying up the world the way we
always had and still do.

Imagine people have equal access,
equal levels of experience,

that they can live without being
trod upon by others.

That record will become very
important in his career.

The defining moment for him though

will be the move to the United
States in 1971.

He likes himself in New York.

He likes the way he can move back
and forth

from his celebrity to a guy walking
around the streets.

This is exciting to him.

But during this period and probably,
very fatefully,

for the rest of his life and the
course it will take,

he finds himself locked in an
immigration fight.

MAN: The US Government came to his
house and tried to deport him.

John was in the process of breaking
up the Beatles' relationship

with Allen Klein, the manager of the
Beatles.

And during that time all of their
money was being held in escrow.

So although they had millions of
dollars in income, they didn't have
any of it.

So it was a very difficult time for
John and he was drinking even more.

And at that point, during the fall
of '72,

the FBI was starting to investigate
John.

The Nixon administration was afraid
of John Lennon

because they thought that he was
going to lead a concert

at the Republican Convention in
September of '72.

They felt that if he came they'd
have tens of thousands,

maybe hundreds of thousands, more
people coming to see him.

Someone shouts out, "The cops are
coming with tear gas and clubs."

Everybody runs.

That's why we asked for, like, a
hundred grand.

We decided to grab the bull by the
horns.

The revolutionaries, Jerry Rubin and
Abbie Hoffman, wanted him to come

and were putting out word that John
Lennon might be there.

By the fall, he was under
deportation order, all his money was
in escrow,

and he's getting really bad reviews
for the Some Time in New York City
album,

which was very political and not
very Beatlesque.

John was a person with strong
opinions about the world.

And I think that he felt it was time
for him to express those opinions.

And he wasn't afraid of the
reaction.

He was surprised that the reaction
was SO negative.

He thought he'd get some positive
reactions to it.

John was used to being on top of the
world.

His records had all gone gold and
platinum immediately with the
Beatles

and his solo albums, Imagine and so
on, sold a lot.

His career was going down,

he wasn't being liked as much as he
used to be.

He was feeling pretty depressed in
the fall of '72.

And during the fall and winter, the
FBI was investigating.

So it got a little too public where
they were living

and they went to live up in the
Dakota apartment.

I remember one night driving him up
to the Dakota and he said,

"Let's keep on going up to 91st
Street"

that he was staying at May Pang's
apartment.

And I was like really shocked being
one of the first people to hear

that John and Yoko were no longer
actually living together.

And it was shortly after that that
John went out to Los Angeles.

1973, Mark graduates from high
school...

and is accepted as a member

of an international YMCA delegation
to go to Beirut, Lebanon.

(PROJECTOR CLICKS AND WHIRS)

CHAPMAN: Thousands of applicants
from all over the country

and only a handful get chosen for
these programmes

and I was very, very excited.

And I just was almost breaking down
in tears that I had been chosen.

And, as fate would have it,

that's when the Middle East was
beginning to fall apart.

(EXPLOSION)

Mark was part of a group that got
caught up in that.

Had pretty much no sooner gotten off
the plane,

than they were hiding out under fire.

And he remembers having to scramble
for cover

while things were blowing up and
gunfire was erupting around them.

CHAPMAN: Lebanon at this time had
just started their civil war

and there was these tremendous bombs
and blasts going off

and we hid under our beds.

This was worldwide news. Thousands
of people were being killed while we
were there.

Just imagine being 18 years old and,
you know,

having not even been through military
training or boot camp,

and suddenly bullets are whizzing so
close you can hear them fly.

For several days you're pinned down,
crawling under beds and tables,

trying not to get killed.

I think it was shattering because he
doesn't have a stomach for fighting

the way that some people might.

I could have never imagined him being
drafted, for example.

He's entirely too fearful, too
unconvicted,

to have ever put himself knowingly at
any personal risk and conflict.

He was instinctually...a coward.

From there he started college,
very ill-prepared.

God is not going to take you through
a history exam

unless you've bothered to read the
book.

I was having trouble staying in
college.

I was having trouble concentrating.

And then having that class on war at
Covenant College was just...

That class on war really deeply
disturbed me.

I studied three or four hours a
night

and probably a good hour or two of
that

was spent on that world history
class,

where we talked about the incredible
carnage,

the bodies of World War I and II.

It was just too much.

After failing to keep up his grades
enough to stay in college,

he began to go through serious bouts
of depression

and began initially to have thoughts
of suicide

and harming other people in addition
to himself.

He became a security guard at the
Atlanta airport.

When I got the job at Protective
Services, I would sit in the car

and bathe myself in self pity

and I decided to do it, to really,
really do it, to kill myself.

And I remember the map of idyllic
islands of Hawaii.

In my deep despair,

there was a place I could go to for
a last few days

before I killed myself.

And he determined that he was going
to save all of his money,

move to Hawaii, spend it all on one
last beautiful fling,

getting the best he could drain from
what was left of life

and then commit suicide.

It was a difficult time for John. He
was getting drunk,

he was depressed, he was angry.

Yoko wanted to keep working and it
was probably getting pretty annoying

to have this drunk, depressed guy in
the house all the time.

So, she suggested to him that they
take a separation

and suggested that May Pang, their
assistant, go with him.

The way John describes it is that
their separation didn't work.

But Yoko wouldn't let him come back
until he had sobered up and had a
better attitude

and that took a while.

He was in Los Angeles with the boys.

He was drinking a lot with Harry
Nilsson, Alice Cooper, Keith Moon.

A tough one to keep up with if
you're drinking.

But John had a way of drinking more
and taking more

than just about anybody else.

And not that he could handle it
well. He often got out of control.

And in public that could be
embarrassing.

There were nights where he was
screaming and cursing

and out-of-control drunk. But after
he got thrown out of the Troubadour

and saw his picture on the cover of
the paper, that sobered him up.

That brought him back to reality and
he actually did get sober.

He came back to New York and pretty
much didn't drink for the rest of
his life.

He was very torn and kind of driven.

He was really, really famous, he was
bottoming out.

He could not make head or tail

of how to be in LA with all his
drinking buddies,

and he realised he wanted more.

The only way he could work out how
to do it was to completely pull the
plug and do a radical 180.

Well, if you're going to commit
suicide

and you want to live it up before you
do it,

you're gonna go first class, right?

So Mark flies first class from
Georgia to Honolulu

and rents himself a room at the
historic Moana Hotel.

CHAPMAN: And I left for Hawaii to
kill myself.

I chose the Moana Hotel which means
ocean in Hawaiian.

And is living on the beach, eating
the finest food,

drinking the little umbrella drinks,
until the money started running out.

And when the money did run out,

he wound up on the street,

going from the ultimate state room

to living in homeless shelters.

You don't start a new life, you just
start living in another place. Your
life stays the same.

And the same things that you ran
from

will always return to haunt you,
no matter where you go.

Although I'll give Hawaii one up on
that.

There's something very special about
Hawaii.

I can credit that place with saving
my life.

You think about all the things that
he failed at in life and...

and er...that includes suicide.

I was truly gonna die that day and
this was my last look at life.

I took out a vacuum cleaner hose,

duct-taped it to the tailpipe
of the car.

The car was filled with smoke.

I remember being startled by a
knocking right by my head

and it was a Japanese fisherman.

He took that as a sign from God that
he was supposed to live.

Called a mental health hotline

to report that he was a suicide
survivor.

Was officially a patient,

I think two weeks, on a constant
24-hour suicide watch.

Even if I took a shower, somebody
had to be in there.

I started getting better.

I became a volunteer on the unit

and that was my lifeline until I was
able to walk on my own again.

He sort of gained a new identity as a
mental health therapist

while he was being treated as a
suicide survivor.

That was the starting road towards a
plateau of peace for about a year.

But there's a time to change,
there's a time to move on.

I didn't need that constant daily
reminder

that I had been quote "sick" unquote

because I had become well or at
least a passable form of well.

He felt the need to escape,

so he saved his money and decided

that what he needed to do was see the
world.

And the woman who helped him plan
this trip was Gloria,

who would later become his wife,

a first-generation
Japanese Hawaiian girl.

(RINGING TONE)

GLORIA: Hi, Jack.Hey there. I'm
worried about you, dear friend.

You are?I am.

Is there going to be
a thunderstorm tonight?

(BOTH CHUCKLE)

Have you talked to Mark today?

No, he doesn't... He rarely calls,

um, you know, early in the day,
it's usually

closer to eight or something like
that.

That's what I thought. That's when
he's usually called me in the past.

So that's what I was thinking.Yeah.

So, yeah, can I ask you...

Um... I'm feeling like because of
your health and Mark's health,

there's a really good chance that
Mark will get paroled this year.

And I think it's very timely here,
after 40 years

that he's been locked away, and
anybody who did what he had done,

involving any other human being on
the planet,

would have been freed probably 25
years ago.

Do you have any premonitions or
sentiments about that?No.

I don't. And I don't know if you
know that it was...

He normally goes in August but um...

Mark's parole has been moved to
later.

Yeah. So not in August this year.

Oh, jeez. So September or...?

I don't have a date. I just know
it's not happening in August.

If it's not something that
the people who -You can ask um...

Mark if he has any more information.
OK.See what he says.

OK, I will try to talk to him about
that a little more,

email him and hopefully he will call
me.

If he does call me, I'll tell him,

"Please try and get a hold of Jack
because..."

(COUGHS) Yeah. But, anyway... OK,
take care.You too, Gloria.

And I hope to see you on Sunday.OK,
sounds good. Thankyou.

God bless.God bless you. Bye.
Bye-bye.

GRUEN: Spring of '75, he went back
to visit Yoko

and he stayed home for once.

That's when he told us that Yoko was
pregnant with Sean.

He was very excited about that.

Sean was born in October on the same
day that John found out

that they won their immigration case

and were finally allowed to stay in
the United States.

And it was in January after that

that they finally settled their deal
with Allen Klein

and got hold of their money and were
no longer

under any management or any record
contracts.

He was finally free for the first
time in his life.

And he had a new baby to stay home
and take care of.

John took Sean very seriously.

He really took a hands-on approach.

He felt very badly that he hadn't
had the time to raise Julian.

When Julian, his first son, was
born, John was in the Beatles.

He was travelling around the world
and his life was completely chaos.

And it was pretty chaotic up until
he sobered up in '75.

When Sean was born he took it
seriously.

He wanted to have that experience

and he spent the next five years at
home in the Dakota

away from the public eye.

He cancelled his subscriptions to
the music business magazines,

he didn't listen to popular radio.

He said if the radio was on it was
classical music, something calm and
soothing.

He learned a lot about
responsibility,

about raising his son, about taking
care of his family,

and it was making such a difference
in his life.

He's no Ansel Adams, for sure,

but he could do a credible job as a
promotional photographer.

CHAPMAN: July '78,

I worked as a housekeeper through
the spring and the summer.

And during that spring is when I
decided

that I'd like to go on a trip.

Not enjoying the work that he was
required to do

in order to pull his weight in
society,

Mark decides that he needs to start a
new life

and he does that by taking a trip
around the world.

And met with a YMCA person in Tokyo

who was the Japanese director of the
YMCA,

and had a real passionate concern for
the refugees

fleeing Vietnam after the ending to
the war there.

Mark described how he began feeling
guilty

that he'd gotten so far away from the
empathy

that he had once felt for people at
the mercies of stronger forces.

Travelled from Tokyo to Korea,
where he saw a lot of poverty.

And from there went to Nepal and
India,

where he saw starving old people on
the streets,

poverty-stricken homeless children

who came flooding out of a school

when they saw an American handing out
gum.

He had never experienced anything
that gut-wrenchingly sad

of starving children and old people

cast aside and dying on the
sidewalks.

It plunged him into a depression over
the human condition.

CHAPMAN: You never find the place
that's going to help you.

You have to make the place in your
heart.

But at that time, I thought if I
changed the place

things would be better, but I would
still bring my same baggage.

And I didn't find that until
recently.

You have be responsible and pack
your own bags.

That where the bags go is not where
the answers are,

it's what's in the bags.

From there he travelled to Europe,

met with his old YMCA boss

who at that time was in Geneva,
Switzerland.

Talked to that friend about the
depression he was feeling...

..and the differences between those
who have money and are born to wealth

and those that he had seen in India,

humans dying and apparently not
caring.

He believed that John and Yoko were
sincere

about using their wealth and power to
help downtrodden people.

And then he got the sense that they
were simply using their money

to make more money.

That shattered his last illusion

that John Lennon was any sort of
prophet or worthwhile role model.

He remembers coming back from that
trip

and his travel agent, Gloria Abe, who
had arranged the trip,

she was at the airport there to meet
him with a big welcome-home sign.

She described falling in love with
him immediately.

CHAPMAN: I got back from the trip in
the August

and Gloria and I started seeing each
other and falling in love.

We were married in June 1979,

about eight months after I had
returned from my trip.

(MOBILE RINGS AND BUZZES)

Oh...Mark here...great.
Thanks for calling.

(CHUCKLES)Welcome.
Very welcome buddy.

Sorry we haven't talked enough.

You know, it's different now,

phone calls are a little harder to
make.

I usually just get half hour a day.
I like to call Gloria.

Sometimes, Jack, it is so hot and
humid

I can't call her, I can't even get
out of bed.

So it has to be...

All the stars...all the planets have
to be aligned.

I hate to say it, that's just the
way it is.

It's just good to hear your voice
again.

I'm glad to know that you're getting
the videograms

and the photos that I've been
sending.Fantastic.

And -They're a piece of life.
They're a piece of life.

I hope this year that you're gonna
walk out of there

and some time you're gonna be able to
visit.Awesome, that would be
incredible.

I think there are a lot of reasons
why that could happen.

You've had some health problems,
Gloria's had some health problems.

And I just think on practical health
and humanitarian grounds,

you're gonna come out of there this
year.

I don't know about this year, I
don't know about any year.

I just trust the Lord. He knows
whether it's going to happen, even
at all or not.

Right, I have been going through all
of our tapes and reliving the time

that we spent together, and I guess
right now I'm curious about if we

could go back and do that again.

If, in all these years, there have
been any additional revelations

that you might have come to of what
this whole thing means for you and...

There's been a lot. I mean, it's
been 30 years

and I have done nothing but gotten
closer to the Lord.

These things are enduring

and this crime was not done in one
state or in one country.

It was done, you know, worldwide,
unfortunately,

and it has impact to this day.

I do want to tell you this. Just be
rock solid positive about this.

Now I want to talk with you, I want
to talk more detailed stuff

than I can now. OK, enough said.

Thank you for treating Gloria right.
I appreciate that.

Oh, it's uh... Gloria is someone I
really care about.

You know, she is your uh...

She's your pearl of great price -

I think I mentioned once before.No
question about it.

I'm really in love.

I don't think I knew what love is

until, you know, this latter part of
my life.

Love means you put the other person
first, think about their interests.

Sounds like you're loving her now the
way she loved you

from the beginning...That's right.
..of your time together.

And the way that she moved from
Hawaii there when you were in prison

to just be near you.Yeah.

That's right.Yeah.RECORDED VOICE:
You have one minute left.

I gotta go.OK. Thanks, Mark. God
bless.

Uh...All right.Call again when you
can.

OK. God bless you.

Bless you and...Bye...best to
Gloria.

I'll give her that.OK.Take care.
Yeah. Bye-bye.Bye-bye.

(LINE CLICKS)
The caller has hung up. Goodbye.

This is the hard part -

looking at these photographs of
another life

in an album that I sent my wife from
Japan

after I first arrived there for
voluntary duty in 1963.

It's been so many years since I've
opened this.

The first photos I ever took of her

at a time when she wanted nothing to
do with me in high school.

I think this is the only photo that
survives of our wedding day.

This is, I think, when she was
pregnant with our daughter

in 1964.

This photo reminds me how beautiful
she was

and how much we loved one another...

until that horrible accident.

When I was in Thailand training in
communications in the Vietnam War

and was on the way back home from a
friend's going-away party,

we were on this jungle road near the
Cambodian border

when a drunk driver hit us from
behind.

She was killed instantly.

I spent the next seven months in a
missionary hospital

in Bangkok, Thailand,

getting my bones and internal organs
knit back together.

I was probably less than a half mile
from our home

when everything went black.

I was unconscious for three days and
I woke up unaware of where I was,

remembering that my wife should be
with me,

and trying to cry for my wife

and someone pushing me down and
passing out

and being unconscious for another two
or three days.

My three-and-a-half year old daughter
with her caretaker,

a time when I was trying to find the
words to...

..tell her what had happened.

After the accident,

I was easily caught up in episodic
drinking,

the use of psychedelic drugs.

I suspect that had I not had that
child

to love and to care for,

that I would have become carried away

and perhaps swept away and perhaps
imprisoned.

It just left me with a profound sense
of loss,

of sadness and guilt

and empathy for what other people
experience

after tragedies that they could not
have possibly imagined happening.

I really struggle to understand the
reasons for violence.

And the most difficult violence of
all to understand

is people who wantonly murder
innocent people

the way Mark David Chapman did.

After the marriage, Gloria described
beginning to feel neglected

mainly because Mark's mom

had suddenly decided to leave her
husband and move to Hawaii.

CHAPMAN: So, after my world trip, my
parents told me about the divorce.

My mum wanted to come out for one
more trial visit

to see if this is really where she
wanted to come.

She fell instantly in love with
Hawaii

and I told her I'd take care of her.

He became once again angry at the
father,

after learning that his father

had not offered any kind of financial
support to her.

I was very angry at my father.

I had a fantasy of blowing his head
away.

I thought about doing that, about
killing my father,

about breaking in and holding a gun
to his head.

(SINISTER VOICE) "This is what you
get for what you did to my mother."

Boom, boom, boom, boom. Cos that'd
make him suffer before he died.

Cos that'd make him suffer.

She was wearing bikinis and walking
the beach

and picking up men who were his age
and bringing them home.

This began turning his still-fragile
mind

into the sort of confusion that would
lead him back to the depression.

Mom was a complicated narcissistic
individual

and when two narcissists come into
conflict,

one of them is going to collapse.

And, in this case it was Mark who
collapsed within himself.

1980 was a watershed year for him in
terms of depression.

He was failing at everything he
tried.

He was in freefall, mentally.

The time Mark stumbled on John
Lennon: One Day At A Time

at the Honolulu public library,

his life was in total disarray.

CHAPMAN: I was in a library in 1980.

The library, for me, was a refuge

from the pain and confusion of the
world around me.

I remember going down an aisle,

not looking for any book in
particular,

and I came across One Day At A Time
by Anthony Fawcett.

And I remember seeing the pictures
of John Lennon

on the gabled roof of the Dakota
building in New York...

and I became enraged.

There was a successful man who kind
of had the world on a chain

and there I was, not even a link of
that chain.

And something in me just broke.

He learned that John Lennon

was living in this incredibly
expensive,

beautiful historic New York City
apartment building...

and he sensed that John Lennon was
the biggest phoney on the planet.

Because here was a guy who had
written and sang

about peace and love and equality,

hiding away in the lap of luxury.

At the same time, he was re-reading
the classic coming of age book

The Catcher in the Rye

and this character, Holden Caulfield,

who spends a wild weekend in New York
City

seeing adults behave in these
hypocritical and phoney ways.

And it's where all those illusions of
fairness and equality

began to crumble.

That all collided at that point.

His inability to deal with his own
problems,

his realisation that he was never
going to be

the famous person known for doing
anything of significance

that his mum had pretty much made him
promise he would do.

CHAPMAN: There is a tornado in my
mind circling around my brain,

bits and pieces crashing into the
walls -

debris, broken things, cloudy
things, things I can't see.

But at all times at the forefront,

the big black cloud of the tornado,

the hurt, the frustration,
the lack of esteem.

I believe I found in a reading of
The Catcher in the Rye,

a small anchor that even if I was
still pulled around

I wasn't pulled around as fast.

And shortly thereafter I was to
think about killing John Lennon.

Once again he found himself as a
security guard,

and he thought of that as the biggest
nobody job in the world.

I don't remember where the little
people came from the second time
around in 1980.

I do remember it was under times of
tremendous pressure.

I was working long hours as a
security guard

and I can't remember a specific hour
or a day or moment

when I began this imaginary world of
little people,

but it did come back.

I was like the President, where they
were my subjects

and I would speak with them through
the means of television,

through imaginary television.

There was a board of the little
people,

very trained, specialised
individuals

who handled things for me,

and I would turn to them and they'd
tell me what to do.

But as it were, these little people
abandoned me

when they were informed that I
wanted to murder John Lennon.

And they did leave me at that point.

Usually people will tell you that

the little people told them to kill
somebody

or told them to burn that person,

hurt that person or stab that
person.

My little people didn't want me to
do any harm to anybody...

..and uh...they shortly dissolved
afterwards.

After he was abandoned by the little
people,

he began focusing on the details

of what a sniper would do

if his assignment was to track and
kill another human being.

And he began practising to become the
ultimate tourist

who had come from Hawaii to New York
City to get an autograph.

Now, New York at this time,

New York just come off an incredibly
divisive hostile decade.

The '70s were really, really large
increases in crime, white flight,

move to the suburbs,
move to the Sunbelt.

This is a time when New York City
police officers

were actually greeting people at JFK
airport

and handing them pamphlets that said
"Welcome to Fear City".

There was a feeling in New York
if you walked down the street,

you wouldn't get to the end of the
block without getting mugged.

That was what we were trying to
leave behind.

And John, in many ways, was a wind
at our backs to say,

"You know what, there are better
things ahead."

The music made you feel good,

made you feel that there is a light
at the end of the tunnel.

You saw John Lennon walking down the
street.

And he didn't just walk down the
street with his head down,

he smiled, he waved, he was
friendly.

And people would show up at the
Dakota

and they'd literally stand there for
hours, waiting for him to come in or
come out.

It's a box and you can drive into
the centre of it through a gate,

so that he could have had his car go
inside the Dakota

and gotten into it and then left.

When he came back, he could driven
into the Dakota again

and gotten out with nobody near him,
but that wasn't his way.

He would intentionally have the car
parked on the street

and he would walk and he would sign
autographs.

And, of course, ironically, there's
that famous photograph of Lennon

autographing the Double Fantasy
album for Mark David Chapman earlier
that day.

CHAPMAN: I was reading The Catcher
In The Rye when suddenly,
"He's coming, he's coming!"

And I just shoved the book back into
my pocket

and I came over and I said "John,
would you sign my album?"

And I handed him my album and then
he wrote his name.

And he handed it back to me and he
said, "Is that all you want?"

Like an inquiry into another matter.

And I said, "Yeah." I said, "Thanks
John."

And then he got into the car and
drove away.

I had an urge right then and there
to get out of there

and then a few minutes later,

asking the Devil to help me have the
strength and the courage

and the opportunity to kill him.

Lennon left that afternoon

and Mark continued to hang out into
the evening,

wandering under the streetlights,

sometimes reading The Catcher In The
Rye.

He describes this angry child in the
back of his brain beginning to say,

"You're a coward, you said you were
gonna do it."

And all of a sudden from way across
on Central Park West,

I see a limo pull up to the stop
light...

..and I know that it's him.

I have this incredible feeling and I
heard a voice in my head saying,

"Do it, do it, do it."

And as he passed me, I walked out

about three quarters across the
paved driveway,

pulled out the gun, went down in a
crouched position,

cupped the gun with my left hand

and aimed at his back and pulled the
trigger five times.

(GUNSHOTS)

At that point it was just so dark
and surreal,

there's no way to describe what it
was like.

It was like a vacuum

and you could smell the gunfire in
the air.

And I believe this was when I had
started breaking down.

And I began pacing.

MAN: December 8th of 1980, around
10:30 at night,

my partner, Tony Palma, and myself

were getting ready to go out on
patrol.

A radio run came over from the
dispatcher

about possible shots fired on 72nd
Street and Central Park West.

We arrived at the Dakota. All of a
sudden Steve Spiro,

who is the arresting officer, ran in
and I heard him say,

"Get your hands against the wall.
Don't make any quick moves."

Steve had come around the corner and
seen him just standing there reading
this book,

The Catcher In The Rye.

It looked like he could care less.

You know, he had no emotion.

I've never seen a guy that committed
a murder that was so aloof about it.

Just about a minute later,

somebody yelled from the back of the
courtyard,

"There's a guy been shot back here."

I saw Lennon laying face down on the
floor

with his arms stretched out, looking
like he was running.

I wasn't sure if he was still alive,
so I turned his head slightly

to see if I could get a pulse. And I
said,

"He's still alive but he's not gonna
last much longer,

so let's get him the hell out of
here."

WEISS: It was December 1980.

I'd left the newsroom where I'd
produced the six o'clock news show.

And I had the misfortune of being
taken to the hospital

about a half hour before John Lennon
was brought in that night.

So we get into the emergency room
and I'm on a gurney in the hallway

and someone sticks his head in and
shouts inside

that they have a gunshot in the
chest coming in.

They bring him into the room that I
am lying right outside of

and two officers come out and one
says to the other,

"Jesus, can you believe it? John
Lennon."

And it was a pretty horrific scene.

He was stark naked. His chest was
open,

and one of the doctors had his hands

inside Lennon's chest.

And there was blood all up and down
his surgical scrubs.

I don't think I ever had as much of
a grasp

on the professional definition of a
dilemma as I had at that time.

Because I was two people.

I was a journalist.
I've covered countless stories -

plane crashes, hurricanes, horrible
fires, horrible shootings.

Really terrible, terrible events.

And as all journalists train
themselves to do,

I was able to divorce myself.

I was a Beatles fan!

I was a Beatles fan from the time I
was in middle school.

I'm still a Beatles fan.

And to have one of your heroes

to be so savagely and senselessly

and brutally murdered like that,

was horrific.

About a minute later, a woman's
high-pitched voice screams,

"Oh, no, oh, no, oh, no."

Shortly after that, the door to the
rear of the emergency room opens up

and there's Yoko Ono on the arm of
David Geffen.

I got to the phone, I dialled the
number.

I called local channel seven. I
reported that John Lennon was dead.

I was in the dark room, developing
the pictures I took that night,

when my doorman asked me

if I had a radio on or television.
I said, "No."

And he said he'd heard that John
Lennon had been shot.

And, you know, I didn't know what
happened.

A friend of mine called me and he
said, "What's going on?"

I said, "I don't know. What did you
hear?" He said, "I just heard on TV
that John Lennon is dead."

That's about the most permanent
thing I ever heard.

And I started trying to think of how
I could fix that,

how I could take care of it, how I
could make it better. But you can't.

We left the hospital

and we decided to stop by the Dakota
and see what was going on.

And when we got there there was a
thousand people in the street

playing music and candles.

That was something to see.

WEISS: The city was shocked.

It transcended age groups.

It transcended everything. It
transcended ethnicity, religion,
background.

It was as if an emotional neutron
bomb went off in New York City.

The heart seemed to be out of them
for a little while.

There was just this stare.

Just pure shock. And sadness.
Incredible sadness.

The '70s were so dark...

..that there was this feeling of
optimism

and I think there was a step back.

People started to question whether
or not we really were on this
upswing.

MAN: My objective as an assistant
district attorney

is to see that justice is done.

It was evident from the very start

that the defendant intended to lodge
an insanity defence.

In an insanity defence case,

it's critically important to learn
everything that can be learned

about the defendant.

It's also critically important that
the defendant be examined

by psychiatric and psychological
experts.

And so we conducted a very, very
thorough investigation.

It was clear to me that the defendant
was not normal.

Normal people do not commit murders.

It was also very clear to me

that he was not entitled to the
insanity defence under New York law.

And based upon that standard and the
results of all of the interviews

and the psychiatric examinations,

I formed the conclusion and we put
forward on behalf of the people

of the state of New York in court,

that the defendant was not entitled
to an insanity defence plea.

And on the day that the case was to
start trial,

the defence attorney came in and
announced

that his client was gonna plead
guilty.

The defendant was sentenced to a term
of 20 years to life in prison.

Most of that time was served at
Attica.

NEWSCASTER: Mark David Chapman
claims he switched his plea

from innocent to guilty in the
killing of former Beatle John Lennon

and by dropping that defence...
(OVERLAPPING NEWS REPORTS)

NEWSCASTER: Chapman's wife, Gloria,
says she loves and can forgive her
husband

if he did murder John Lennon...

HOGREFE: It was my determination,
based upon the investigation,

that it was clearly the motive that
this individual had

was to bring attention to himself.

It was the determination of the
psychiatrists and psychologists

that the defendant suffered from a
personality disorder.

He was a narcissist.

He would do things to draw attention
to himself.

Put this in context.

This is a 25-year-old individual

who had never really accomplished
what he thought was necessary

to bring attention to himself.

And it was John Lennon who became the
target of these efforts.

He had confided to psychiatrists

that he had other potential
candidates on his so-called hit list.

John Lennon, apparently, was at the
top of the list

and was the person that he was able
to get to more readily than others.

He wanted to kill a famous person to
bring attention to himself, a very...

a very unsettling motive in a crime
like this.

Stories about the John Lennon murder

and Mark David Chapman lead the
evening news.

It was such a shocking act as he
calculated it to be,

that everyone everywhere was stunned.

As he himself said,
"I didn't change the world,

but I stopped it for three days."

(RINGING TONE ON TAPE RECORDING)

CHAPMAN:

GLORIA:

CHAPMAN:

(WHISPERS)

As a newspaper journalist,

you don't always get to cover big
stories like the John Lennon murder.

Day to day, you're covering
drunk-driving accidents

or kids running off the road or
people's children drowning.

And I had to do a lot of that sort of
death-knock work.

I always felt a great deal of empathy
with the families

when I had to talk with them.

And in times, shared my own
experience with them.

It has made me a great deal more
aware

of how fragile we humans are.

Mark was confined in protective
custody at Attica prison

from late 1981 until around 2012,

when he was transferred to Wende.

I interviewed Mark in Attica prison
for the book.

I have interviewed a number of people
in prison

who are extremely narcissistic human
beings

and, in many cases, struggle to show
remorse

and to apologise for the awful things
they did.

And they really try.

I think I've seen nobody try harder
than Mark Chapman has tried.

But there's something that's just not
making connection there.

It's still all about them and their
self-image.

CHAPMAN: You know, perhaps it boils
down to this in a nutshell.

I had no responsibility of my own

and it was cowardice that kept me
from facing my problems.

And there was a time where I went
through a period

where I got a lot closer to God and
became really responsible.

By the time I was sentenced, I had
gone back to The Catcher In The Rye,

you know, that little world there.

Empathy is something you either have
or you don't.

I think people who have empathy...

..they're the angels unaware.

I feel about Mark David Chapman
the way I feel about any murderer.

It's equal justice for all.

Virtually every prisoner
in New York State

who has committed that act against an
anonymous victim

has been released on good behaviour
after 15 years.

Mark has spent almost three times
that long.

No matter whether a person is in
prison or a famous politician,

I feel a sense of responsibility

to stay in touch with people,

particularly someone that I spent as
much time with like Mark.

I wasn't comfortable thinking, "The
book is done,

I can close that chapter, I can
reject his phone calls."

There's a human on the other side of
that voice

who trusted me to do
something pretty important.

(PHONE RINGS)

(RINGING CONTINUES)

CHAPMAN: Hey, Jack.
Hi, Mark. Very timely call.

Yeah.Yes. I tried to get in,

but they aren't allowing visitors at
this point.

OK. I need to say this

and delicately as I can.

When I made this horrible decision,

that decision was just a pure evil
decision.

There are no excuses.

This was a completely evil deed.

That's all it was about.

This tremendous need for glory

that doesn't go any lower than that.

There's no other explanation.
I can finally say it now.

It's really, really true.

I hope you never get to a place

where all you seek is your own self
glory.

What a horrible, horrible
thing to do.

I cannot believe I did that.

OK, I gotta go. I gotta call Gloria.

OK. Thank you again.

Take care.Yeah. See you.
Bye-bye. Bye.

(LINE CLICKS)RECORDED VOICE:
The caller has hung up.

(SIGHS)

I think Mark regrets the murder of
John Lennon

as much as a pathologically
narcissistic person

can regret any act.

But just how deep he can feel that
has always been a question.

WOMACK: The fallout from what would
happen that night

resounds into this moment.

Anyone who loves human beings,

much less the Beatles,
felt an acute pain.

(GUITAR STRUMS)
JONES: # New York, New York

# December 8th

# Near midnight

# Outside Dakota's gate

# A man who couldn't pull his weight

# Raised on religion
and fear and hate

# A man whose name
shall not be spoken

# Since a child that man's been
broken

# A creature of his own invention

# No need for love

# He craves attention

# But when you play the Devil's game,
you lose

# I'm sorry, John

# I'm sorry, John
# I'm sorry, John

# I'm sorry, John
# I'm sorry, John

# I'm sorry, John
# I'm sorry, John #

WOMACK: It's a sense of loss that's
experienced every day since

because every day thousands of kids
discover the Beatles.

And it is happening to people right
now.

Right in this second in which you're
watching this,

people are discovering the Beatles.

And there will always be that
moment...

..when that kid discovers that John
Lennon was cut down

in a hail of bullets
on December 8th 1980.

And she will experience that pain,
possibly more acutely,

because for her, it's immediate and
it's new.

And just as it was for us,
it's ineffable.

There's no coming back.

And there's no unknowing it.

It's a moment of resounding
interminable loss.

MAN:

Wow. That is a prickly question.

No, he is not worthy of being
paroled.

This man should never be released
from prison, in my opinion.

You can't err on the side of
Chapman,

you've gotta err on the side of
Lennon's family.

We all know what it looks like when
someone is truly...sorry

and if we're not seeing that from
him, he shouldn't be paroled.

INTERVIEWER:
What do you mean by peace?

Just all its...all its aspects.

Peace of mind, peace in the street,

peace in your own home,
peace throughout the world.

Really it means no violence

or violence that's channelled
and doesn't hurt.

And so peace means that to me.

Don't hurt people.

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