All language subtitles for The.Real.Adolescence.Our.Killer.Kids.2025.1080p.BluRay.x264.AAC5.1-[YTS.MX]

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MAN: That day never leaves you.

Official YIFY movies site:
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You think about it
every second of every day.

You think about it
every second of every day.

But we'll be out
and, "Oh, Olly would love that,"

But we'll be out
and, "Oh, Olly would love that,"

or, "Olly would do that,"

or, you know, that kind of stuff
is always in your head.

or, you know, that kind of stuff
is always in your head.

Olly was 13...

..and the two boys that
murdered Olly, they were 13 and 14.

..and the two boys that
murdered Olly, they were 13 and 14.

..and the two boys that
murdered Olly, they were 13 and 14.

I don't understand what makes
a child think that murder's OK.

I don't understand what makes
a child think that murder's OK.

REPORTER:One of them sent a message
after the stabbing saying,

REPORTER:One of them sent a message
after the stabbing saying,

"It is what it is."

But how did they get the knife,
and what led them to use it?

But how did they get the knife,
and what led them to use it?

REPORTER:The number of young people
being sentenced for murder

REPORTER:The number of young people
being sentenced for murder

has soared over the last decade.

has soared over the last decade.

WOMAN:We want to know
whether the 12-year-old boys

WOMAN:We want to know
whether the 12-year-old boys

who committed murder with a machete,
whether they should be named.

who committed murder with a machete,
whether they should be named.

MAN: I cry.
I cry every day and at night.

MAN: I cry.
I cry every day and at night.

You know,
I just take one day at a time.

You know,
I just take one day at a time.

MAN:You, get down on the ground,
down on the ground right now!

MAN:You, get down on the ground,
down on the ground right now!

CALL HANDLER:
'Is there any serious bleeding?'

CALLER:'Yes, very serious.'

CALLER:'Yes, very serious.'

Social media is featuring
far too frequently

Social media is featuring
far too frequently

in incidents of murder and
serious violence in this country.

in incidents of murder and
serious violence in this country.

MAN:We really can't underestimate

MAN:We really can't underestimate

how social media's impacted
our young people.

how social media's impacted
our young people.

It's a wake-up call.

MAN:This is as serious
as it gets, yeah? OK?

MAN:This is as serious
as it gets, yeah? OK?

MAN:Had anybody threatened you?
No comment.

MAN:Had anybody threatened you?
No comment.

I shouldn't be standing here talking
about children carrying knives

I shouldn't be standing here talking
about children carrying knives

I shouldn't be standing here talking
about children carrying knives

and using them
against other children.

and using them
against other children.

MAN:If children this young
can commit murder,

where does this leave us as society?

where does this leave us as society?

Armed police!

Show me your hands now!

Show me your hands now!

MAN: 'Two 12-year-old boys appeared
in court today charged with murder.

MAN: 'Two 12-year-old boys appeared
in court today charged with murder.

MAN: 'Two 12-year-old boys appeared
in court today charged with murder.

'Yes, you heard right,
12 years old.'

'Yes, you heard right,
12 years old.'

A case that's really caught
the public attention recently

A case that's really caught
the public attention recently

is the killing of Shawn Seesahai.

is the killing of Shawn Seesahai.

So, he was 19 years old,
but shockingly, he was killed.

So, he was 19 years old,
but shockingly, he was killed.

He was stabbed by two 12-year-olds
in Wolverhampton,

He was stabbed by two 12-year-olds
in Wolverhampton,

and these two individuals are the
youngest convicted killers in the UK

and these two individuals are the
youngest convicted killers in the UK

and these two individuals are the
youngest convicted killers in the UK

since the killing of James Bulger

when the perpetrators
were ten years old.

when the perpetrators
were ten years old.

REPORTER:
'On the night he was killed,

'Shawn and a friend bought
soft drinks at a petrol station

'Shawn and a friend bought
soft drinks at a petrol station

'before heading to a park.

'before heading to a park.

'In CCTV, you can just about
see them approaching a bench

'In CCTV, you can just about
see them approaching a bench

'where they had a disagreement
with the two 12-year-olds.'

'where they had a disagreement
with the two 12-year-olds.'

REPORTER:'One of the boys
pulled out a 16-inch machete

REPORTER:'One of the boys
pulled out a 16-inch machete

'and stabbed Shawn, the other
punched and stamped on his head.'

'and stabbed Shawn, the other
punched and stamped on his head.'

DR DAS:It has to be said
that social media played a big part

DR DAS:It has to be said
that social media played a big part

in this particular incident

in this particular incident

because both of the perpetrators
were showing off to each other

because both of the perpetrators
were showing off to each other

about possessing knives
and wanting to use them,

about possessing knives
and wanting to use them,

so it felt like they were literally
just waiting for an opportunity

so it felt like they were literally
just waiting for an opportunity

to attack anybody,
some random stranger.

to attack anybody,
some random stranger.

But it's the intention to go close
to that person and take their life.

But it's the intention to go close
to that person and take their life.

But it's the intention to go close
to that person and take their life.

Cos remember, especially
when it comes to knife crime,

Cos remember, especially
when it comes to knife crime,

there's a proximity.

You gotta get
in that personal space.

DR DAS:Another chilling aspect
to this case

was that the perpetrators
were messaging each other

was that the perpetrators
were messaging each other

after the event, and one of them
apparently wrote "IDRC",

after the event, and one of them
apparently wrote "IDRC",

which stands for
"I don't really care".

So that just really shows
just the callousness

So that just really shows
just the callousness

and the lack of empathy
that they had.

I think when we have
these horrendous, shocking cases,

I think when we have
these horrendous, shocking cases,

it kind of alarms us as a society

it kind of alarms us as a society

and we start
asking ourselves questions.

If children this young
could do something that heinous,

If children this young
could do something that heinous,

then where does that leave us
as society?

then where does that leave us
as society?

OVER PHONE:'They're running about
with machetes.

OVER PHONE:'They're running about
with machetes.

'What are their parents doing?'

'If somebody had killed my child,
I'd want 'em named and shamed.'

'If somebody had killed my child,
I'd want 'em named and shamed.'

'They're feral,
these kids are feral.'

Whatever statistics I hear, whether
it's knife crime possessions,

Whatever statistics I hear, whether
it's knife crime possessions,

Whatever statistics I hear, whether
it's knife crime possessions,

whether it's murders,
those convicted of murders,

whether it's murders,
those convicted of murders,

any statistics I've heard
over the last ten years,

any statistics I've heard
over the last ten years,

they're all going more or less
in the wrong direction.

they're all going more or less
in the wrong direction.

The fact that you've got
younger suspects and victims,

The fact that you've got
younger suspects and victims,

The fact that you've got
younger suspects and victims,

and it's not just confined to...

and it's not just confined to...

those crime hotspots,
the deprived areas,

those crime hotspots,
the deprived areas,

it's now coming
into all sorts of well-to-do areas

it's now coming
into all sorts of well-to-do areas

it's now coming
into all sorts of well-to-do areas

where you would never see this.

It can happen anywhere,
and it can happen to anyone.

It can happen anywhere,
and it can happen to anyone.

MAN:We felt quite safe here.

Everybody gets on,
everybody knows everybody by sight,

Everybody gets on,
everybody knows everybody by sight,

everybody says hello.

Everybody knew Olly cos he was out
on his bike all the time,

Everybody knew Olly cos he was out
on his bike all the time,

up and down the street
causing havoc.

So, you know,
he was well-known by everybody.

So, you know,
he was well-known by everybody.

By that token,
we knew everybody else's children,

By that token,
we knew everybody else's children,

so, you know, you felt that your
kids were quite safe in this area.

so, you know, you felt that your
kids were quite safe in this area.

His last year of primary school,
he was struggling.

His last year of primary school,
he was struggling.

He couldn't understand
what he had to do.

He didn't have... He almost, like...

He felt like his brain
wasn't working properly.

He felt like his brain
wasn't working properly.

It was that morning, actually,
we were chatting to him about that,

It was that morning, actually,
we were chatting to him about that,

and he kind of accepted the fact
that he had autism,

and he kind of accepted the fact
that he had autism,

but it wasn't severe autism,

but it wasn't severe autism,

but he was
on the spectrum, definitely.

but he was
on the spectrum, definitely.

And it made it difficult
for him to learn.

He would do everything feet first

and not worry
about the consequences,

and not worry
about the consequences,

but part of being on the spectrum,
you don't understand danger,

but part of being on the spectrum,
you don't understand danger,

so they don't have red flags.

so they don't have red flags.

It was January the third,
that was a Sunday,

It was January the third,
that was a Sunday,

we were going back to work
on the Monday

so we were preoccupied
with going back to work.

so we were preoccupied
with going back to work.

It was COVID.
Christmas wasn't the same, you know.

It was COVID.
Christmas wasn't the same, you know.

I had a chat with him
cos work was stressful, and I said,

I had a chat with him
cos work was stressful, and I said,

"Look, I know work's been stressful

"and Christmas wasn't that great
this year, you know,

"and Christmas wasn't that great
this year, you know,

"so we'll make up for it
during the summer."

"so we'll make up for it
during the summer."

So, we made plans, you know,

"Yeah, we'll do that, once the world
gets back on its feet,

"Yeah, we'll do that, once the world
gets back on its feet,

"we'll do all these things."

He helped me with some chores
in the morning.

We had a few laughs,
and we were messing around.

We had a few laughs,
and we were messing around.

And, so, yeah,
all that stuff was going on,

And, so, yeah,
all that stuff was going on,

and then Olly had gone outside,
I heard him leave.

and then Olly had gone outside,
I heard him leave.

and then Olly had gone outside,
I heard him leave.

Olly was going out
to meet somebody that we knew.

Olly was going out
to meet somebody that we knew.

And he went out with his sliders on.
He didn't suspect anything.

And he went out with his sliders on.
He didn't suspect anything.

And he went over there,
out to the field.

And he went over there,
out to the field.

He got to the field.

He saw a girl,
he had a conversation with her,

He saw a girl,
he had a conversation with her,

and then the other two came
running up the hill and jumped him.

and then the other two came
running up the hill and jumped him.

and then the other two came
running up the hill and jumped him.

KNOCKING

And there was a knock on the door.

And there was a knock on the door.

And I just heard Amanda scream,

And I just heard Amanda scream,

and, you know, "What do you mean,
he's been stabbed?"

and, you know, "What do you mean,
he's been stabbed?"

And then I just flew down
the stairs,

And then I just flew down
the stairs,

and I just ran over the field.

and I just ran over the field.

I didn't have any shoes on.

And I just saw everybody stood
around him,

and he was having CPR at that point.

and he was having CPR at that point.

It's like your head's
in a washing machine,

It's like your head's
in a washing machine,

y-you're in shock,
you're in disbelief, you know,

y-you're in shock,
you're in disbelief, you know,

there's the horror,

and I managed to push people out
of the way and get hold of his hand.

and I managed to push people out
of the way and get hold of his hand.

But when I felt his hand,

because an hour earlier,
his hands had been warm...

because an hour earlier,
his hands had been warm...

..his hand was stone cold,
so I knew he was gone.

..his hand was stone cold,
so I knew he was gone.

There's a fog around
the whole day for us.

There's a fog around
the whole day for us.

You know, one minute, he's here,
the next minute, they're not.

You know, one minute, he's here,
the next minute, they're not.

The shock,
you're just like a zombie.

The shock,
you're just like a zombie.

You can't sleep. You don't sleep...

You can't sleep. You don't sleep...

..and I was
looking out my bedroom window,

the same window
that I watched him leave,

the same window
that I watched him leave,

three o'clock in the morning,
all the police tents were up,

three o'clock in the morning,
all the police tents were up,

and the field was sealed off,

and there were police
on every exit and entrance.

REPORTER:'Those that knew him

'have been laying flowers
at the scene

'as police have continued
to scour the fields

'as police have continued
to scour the fields

'where the schoolboy was found,

'where the schoolboy was found,

'forensic experts documenting
every potential clue.'

'forensic experts documenting
every potential clue.'

There were a lot of people out there

that couldn't understand why
this had happened to Olly either.

that couldn't understand why
this had happened to Olly either.

But there's a whole chain of events
building up to this moment.

But there's a whole chain of events
building up to this moment.

Social media was massive in this.

Social media was massive in this.

BOY ON RECORDING:'You've got poison
in your heart, fam.

BOY ON RECORDING:'You've got poison
in your heart, fam.

'Olly, you're gonna die tomorrow.'

'Olly, you're gonna die tomorrow.'

REPORTER:
'In the last image of his life,

'13-year-old Olly Stephens

'strolls to a park in Reading to
meet a girl on a Sunday afternoon.

'strolls to a park in Reading to
meet a girl on a Sunday afternoon.

'strolls to a park in Reading to
meet a girl on a Sunday afternoon.

'Thirteen minutes later,
he'd be dead.'

'Thirteen minutes later,
he'd be dead.'

All Olly had done is, somebody
he knew of had been patterned.

All Olly had done is, somebody
he knew of had been patterned.

All Olly had done is, somebody
he knew of had been patterned.

So, what they do is abuse you,
video it, humiliate you

So, what they do is abuse you,
video it, humiliate you

So, what they do is abuse you,
video it, humiliate you

and then threaten to post it
unless you do as they tell you.

and then threaten to post it
unless you do as they tell you.

And that's known as patterning.

So, Olly told the older brother
of the boy,

So, Olly told the older brother
of the boy,

the younger boy that was patterned,
that this was going on.

the younger boy that was patterned,
that this was going on.

And the two boys then felt aggrieved
that he'd snitched on them.

And the two boys then felt aggrieved
that he'd snitched on them.

And the two boys then felt aggrieved
that he'd snitched on them.

He was just looking out
for somebody else.

He was just looking out
for somebody else.

He'd done nothing majorly wrong.

He'd done nothing majorly wrong.

He just passed a video on
that was out there already.

He just passed a video on
that was out there already.

But they saw that as a slight,
and then they decided to punish him.

But they saw that as a slight,
and then they decided to punish him.

And that's when the conversations
with the girl kicked off,

And that's when the conversations
with the girl kicked off,

And that's when the conversations
with the girl kicked off,

cos she wanted her revenge on him
as well for...

All he'd done, he said, "Oh,
I don't wanna see you any more."

All he'd done, he said, "Oh,
I don't wanna see you any more."

So, between the three of them,
this was a plot, definitely,

So, between the three of them,
this was a plot, definitely,

you could see it developing
over the two weeks.

you could see it developing
over the two weeks.

There were 11 platforms used
on the plot against Olly.

There were 11 platforms used
on the plot against Olly.

So, there was a lot of escalation
within those conversations.

So, there was a lot of escalation
within those conversations.

They're just encouraging each other
all the way.

They're just encouraging each other
all the way.

So, they're goading each other to go
further and further and further.

So, they're goading each other to go
further and further and further.

And it's horrendous.

'You got poison in your heart, fam.

'You got poison in your heart, fam.

'Olly, you're gonna die tomorrow.'

'Olly, you're gonna die tomorrow.'

You know, there are audio clips
out there of what she did

You know, there are audio clips
out there of what she did

to make that meeting happen
and who she contacted,

to make that meeting happen
and who she contacted,

and one of them had told the other
to carry the knife.

and one of them had told the other
to carry the knife.

GIRL:'So, he's gonna go bang him
and pattern him and shit.

GIRL:'So, he's gonna go bang him
and pattern him and shit.

GIRL:'So, he's gonna go bang him
and pattern him and shit.

'I'm so excited,
you don't understand.'

'I'm so excited,
you don't understand.'

And then they lured him out
to the field.

And then they lured him out
to the field.

So, he'd been set up.

And what happened was that
Olly got involved in a fight

And what happened was that
Olly got involved in a fight

And what happened was that
Olly got involved in a fight

with the older boy,
and Olly was winning,

with the older boy,
and Olly was winning,

so the other kid
stabbed him in the back.

so the other kid
stabbed him in the back.

Olly must have turned around in
shock, and stabbed him in the chest.

Olly must have turned around in
shock, and stabbed him in the chest.

They punctured both lungs,

so he had literally a minute,
a minute and a half.

so he had literally a minute,
a minute and a half.

There was no way
he was gonna survive that.

It beggars belief,
what they did to him.

It beggars belief,
what they did to him.

And it was just evil, pure evil.

They left him dying,
ran off laughing.

They left him dying,
ran off laughing.

They've just lost all perspective.
There was no value of life there.

They've just lost all perspective.
There was no value of life there.

They didn't care about Olly,

didn't care about the consequences
of what they'd done

didn't care about the consequences
of what they'd done

and just about
protecting themselves.

Obviously, we were working
very closely with the police,

Obviously, we were working
very closely with the police,

and they spent the first 24 hours
hammering social media for evidence.

and they spent the first 24 hours
hammering social media for evidence.

The amount of evidence
they collected was unbelievable.

The amount of evidence
they collected was unbelievable.

I mean, the police did an amazing
job piecing that all together,

I mean, the police did an amazing
job piecing that all together,

so what it enabled the police to do
was make arrests very quickly.

so what it enabled the police to do
was make arrests very quickly.

so what it enabled the police to do
was make arrests very quickly.

By the Monday night,
they were all arrested.

REPORTER:
'The trial provided a glimpse

'into the online world which
occupied the lives of these boys,

'into the online world which
occupied the lives of these boys,

'into the online world which
occupied the lives of these boys,

'where posing with knives
and talking about killing

'where posing with knives
and talking about killing

'was considered everyday chat.'

'We were in court every day
for six weeks.

'We were in court every day
for six weeks.

'It's very difficult
to sit in a court

'when the person that's killed
your son is six feet away.'

'when the person that's killed
your son is six feet away.'

You know, listening
to the evidence was... hard.

You know, listening
to the evidence was... hard.

The way they were portrayed
in court was,

"Oh, we haven't done
anything wrong."

And, "It was all an accident,"
sort of thing.

At one point, they tried to say
that Olly had fallen on the knife.

At one point, they tried to say
that Olly had fallen on the knife.

Their online presence
was very violence-related.

Their online presence
was very violence-related.

Their online presence
was very violence-related.

You know, pictures
of carrying knives, hooded up,

You know, pictures
of carrying knives, hooded up,

balaclava-ed up,
referring to knives as "cheffers".

balaclava-ed up,
referring to knives as "cheffers".

There was a lot of hatred there,
a lot of violence.

There was a lot of hatred there,
a lot of violence.

You know, what makes a teenage boy
go down that road?

You know, what makes a teenage boy
go down that road?

Very early on in the girl's case,

Very early on in the girl's case,

the lawyers had pleaded guilty
to manslaughter

the lawyers had pleaded guilty
to manslaughter

because she didn't
physically touch Olly.

because she didn't
physically touch Olly.

Everything was done
in the virtual world.

Everything was done
in the virtual world.

So, because she hadn't
physically touched Olly,

So, because she hadn't
physically touched Olly,

she couldn't be accountable
for his... for his death.

she couldn't be accountable
for his... for his death.

Their families' lives are ruined,
their lives are ruined,

Their families' lives are ruined,
their lives are ruined,

all because of one stupid act.

And there's no satisfaction in it,
there's no celebration in it.

And there's no satisfaction in it,
there's no celebration in it.

And there's no satisfaction in it,
there's no celebration in it.

Cos you understand, you know,
if we feel like this...

Cos you understand, you know,
if we feel like this...

..how are their parents feeling?

But at the end of the day,
they can still hug their children.

But at the end of the day,
they can still hug their children.

You know, we can't.
So that's kind of the difference.

You know, we can't.
So that's kind of the difference.

Sadly, this case
is not the exception.

Social media
is featuring far too frequently

Social media
is featuring far too frequently

in incidents of murder and
serious violence in this country.

in incidents of murder and
serious violence in this country.

But the sharing of violent
and weapon-related content,

But the sharing of violent
and weapon-related content,

particularly by children,

also needs to be a priority
for these companies.

also needs to be a priority
for these companies.

How social media,
the role had played

How social media,
the role had played

in orchestrating Olly's murder,
is quite frightening.

in orchestrating Olly's murder,
is quite frightening.

If you go and sit in the well
of any court across this country,

If you go and sit in the well
of any court across this country,

If you go and sit in the well
of any court across this country,

and a murder trial
where a knife has been involved,

and a murder trial
where a knife has been involved,

almost certainly, social media
will have played some part in that.

almost certainly, social media
will have played some part in that.

almost certainly, social media
will have played some part in that.

There is a cancer
in our children's lives.

There is a cancer
in our children's lives.

It starts with the use
of a mobile phone,

It starts with the use
of a mobile phone,

with apps that are provided
to entertain...

with apps that are provided
to entertain...

..yet are misused to spread slander,
hatred, misinformation and bile,

..yet are misused to spread slander,
hatred, misinformation and bile,

..yet are misused to spread slander,
hatred, misinformation and bile,

and ends in the cold,
cruel-blooded murder.

and ends in the cold,
cruel-blooded murder.

So, what we can't get our heads
around is, you know, how...

So, what we can't get our heads
around is, you know, how...

SIGHS

SIGHS

teenagers are that desensitised.

And that comes back
to what they see on their phones.

And that comes back
to what they see on their phones.

They're being shown knives
and blades

They're being shown knives
and blades

and, you know, gang violence
and all that kind of stuff,

and, you know, gang violence
and all that kind of stuff,

and, erm, as a parent,
you don't see it, you have no idea.

and, erm, as a parent,
you don't see it, you have no idea.

Obviously children,
especially young boys,

Obviously children,
especially young boys,

fighting is not a new phenomenon,

but what does feel new to me is
the contribution from social media.

but what does feel new to me is
the contribution from social media.

but what does feel new to me is
the contribution from social media.

So, it feels like these
young individuals feel provoked

So, it feels like these
young individuals feel provoked

and they have to respond in some way
to keep up that level of bravado.

and they have to respond in some way
to keep up that level of bravado.

They can have arguments

which can escalate quite quickly
into actual murder.

which can escalate quite quickly
into actual murder.

Fred is my friend,
my best, best friend, and my son.

Fred is my friend,
my best, best friend, and my son.

Fred is my friend,
my best, best friend, and my son.

I tried to make my son
go on the right track.

I tried to make my son
go on the right track.

Fred was gonna be a businessman.

So that's why he do well in school -
he was gonna be a businessman.

So that's why he do well in school -
he was gonna be a businessman.

So that's why he do well in school -
he was gonna be a businessman.

I get a phone call
say Fred get stabbed.

I get a phone call
say Fred get stabbed.

And it was giving me a panic attack.
I did panic.

And it was giving me a panic attack.
I did panic.

And it was giving me a panic attack.
I did panic.

WHIRRING

WHIRRING

So, I see the helicopter, and I was
saying to God, I say, "God, please."

So, I see the helicopter, and I was
saying to God, I say, "God, please."

So, I see the helicopter, and I was
saying to God, I say, "God, please."

This serious for a helicopter
to reach there at that time.

This serious for a helicopter
to reach there at that time.

Then I get a phone call

when I was, like, going on my way
that say he pass away.

when I was, like, going on my way
that say he pass away.

He didn't make it.

I'd say it's pretty rare to get
homicides in Northamptonshire.

I'd say it's pretty rare to get
homicides in Northamptonshire.

So when I received a call that
we'd had a murder in Northampton...

So when I received a call that
we'd had a murder in Northampton...

..and it was
of a 16-year-old schoolboy,

I knew then that this was gonna have

a huge impact
on the local community.

The first thing that I always want
to do is go down to the scene

The first thing that I always want
to do is go down to the scene

to get an understanding of what's
happened, where it's happened.

to get an understanding of what's
happened, where it's happened.

So, the murder itself
took place at the junction

So, the murder itself
took place at the junction

of the Cock Hotel in Kingsthorpe
in Northampton.

of the Cock Hotel in Kingsthorpe
in Northampton.

So, it's a busy junction with
a lot of cars passing through it.

So, it's a busy junction with
a lot of cars passing through it.

It was quite evident early on,

the complexities that
we were gonna have around the scene.

the complexities that
we were gonna have around the scene.

The first things we'll do is try to
gather as much evidence as we can,

The first things we'll do is try to
gather as much evidence as we can,

as quickly as we can.

So, CCTV, those initial
witness statements are gonna be key.

So, CCTV, those initial
witness statements are gonna be key.

We can see from the CCTV

where Fred is walking home
with a couple of his friends

where Fred is walking home
with a couple of his friends

before he sees on the opposite side
of the road the offending parties.

before he sees on the opposite side
of the road the offending parties.

before he sees on the opposite side
of the road the offending parties.

It's at that point
that he then crosses the road

It's at that point
that he then crosses the road

to confront those others involved.

to confront those others involved.

And I think Fred is expecting
there to be a fight at that point.

And I think Fred is expecting
there to be a fight at that point.

But obviously completely unaware

that the other boys
are carrying knives.

So, after Fred was stabbed,

So, after Fred was stabbed,

a couple of members of the public
passing in their vehicle

a couple of members of the public
passing in their vehicle

had seen what had occurred.

Seeing that Fred's being tended to

by a lot of members
of the public already,

they decide to follow
the two offenders.

they decide to follow
the two offenders.

And they followed them
along a road,

And they followed them
along a road,

up towards an alleyway,
where they see them enter,

and they're on the phone
to the police

the whole time
this is taking place as well.

the whole time
this is taking place as well.

And they were able
to direct the police

into an address
that the two boys then went into.

into an address
that the two boys then went into.

POLICE OFFICER:You, both of you,
show me your hands.

POLICE OFFICER:You, both of you,
show me your hands.

You, show me your hands!

Down on the ground!
Down on the ground!

Down on the ground!
Down on the ground!

We know they're armed with knives,

we don't know what other weapons
they've got,

we don't know who they are
and how they're gonna behave.

we don't know who they are
and how they're gonna behave.

You!

Right, get him, get him, get him.

You! Down on the ground!
Down on the ground! Do it now!

You! Down on the ground!
Down on the ground! Do it now!

OFFICER SHOUTS

Stay there. What?

You what?

So, at that point,
the officers have to make a decision

So, at that point,
the officers have to make a decision

to enter the premises, not knowing
what they're going to find.

to enter the premises, not knowing
what they're going to find.

They don't know
whether this is adults involved,

if these are violent,
hardened criminals or what.

if these are violent,
hardened criminals or what.

Right, you, onto your side.

Sit up.

So, they've gone into that address
completely open-minded,

So, they've gone into that address
completely open-minded,

but prepared for every eventuality.

but prepared for every eventuality.

They clear the property meticulously
room by room,

They clear the property meticulously
room by room,

at which point,
they arrive at an upstairs attic

at which point,
they arrive at an upstairs attic

that had been semi-converted
into a bit of a sleep-in.

that had been semi-converted
into a bit of a sleep-in.

You've just entered this property,

you know that a boy has been
murdered out on the street,

you know that a boy has been
murdered out on the street,

and then you find potential suspect
hiding behind the chest of drawers.

and then you find potential suspect
hiding behind the chest of drawers.

and then you find potential suspect
hiding behind the chest of drawers.

Armed police!

Armed police!

Show me your hands now!
Show me your BLEEPhands.

Show me your hands now!
Show me your BLEEPhands.

Do not move!

And you see that
it's this 14-year-old child.

And you see that
it's this 14-year-old child.

Do not move!

On the floor now, on the floor now!
Down on your front!

On the floor now, on the floor now!
Down on your front!

OK, mate, you're under arrest
on suspicion of murder.

OK, mate, you're under arrest
on suspicion of murder.

You do not have to say anything,

but it may harm your defence
if you do not mention

when questioned something
which you later rely on in court.

when questioned something
which you later rely on in court.

Armed police!

Armed police!

Show me your hands now!

WOMAN: Northamptonshire Police
have launched a murder investigation

WOMAN: Northamptonshire Police
have launched a murder investigation

after, yesterday, a 16-year-old boy
was tragically stabbed.

after, yesterday, a 16-year-old boy
was tragically stabbed.

after, yesterday, a 16-year-old boy
was tragically stabbed.

Sadly, despite the best efforts
of members of the public,

Sadly, despite the best efforts
of members of the public,

the police,
police staff and paramedics,

the police,
police staff and paramedics,

he died shortly afterwards.

So, unlike a lot
of homicide investigations...

So, unlike a lot
of homicide investigations...

..because we followed
the offenders from the scene

..because we followed
the offenders from the scene

to the point of arrest in
a very, very short amount of time...

to the point of arrest in
a very, very short amount of time...

to the point of arrest in
a very, very short amount of time...

..they've not had the opportunity
to discard items.

..they've not had the opportunity
to discard items.

Also, being children,
not that experienced in criminality,

Also, being children,
not that experienced in criminality,

perhaps they hadn't thought
this far ahead

around what they'd do with
their clothes and their weapons.

around what they'd do with
their clothes and their weapons.

So, in the garden, once
we've started to clear that out,

So, in the garden, once
we've started to clear that out,

we've uncovered clothing,
and we've uncovered knives as well.

we've uncovered clothing,
and we've uncovered knives as well.

So, this weapon here
was discarded into some bushes

So, this weapon here
was discarded into some bushes

at the address
where they were arrested from.

at the address
where they were arrested from.

Very nasty, very lethal weapon that
people can just go and buy online.

Very nasty, very lethal weapon that
people can just go and buy online.

Very nasty, very lethal weapon that
people can just go and buy online.

It's a hunting knife,

so it's got some tools on here
for cutting line and stuff.

so it's got some tools on here
for cutting line and stuff.

It's got a serrated edge,
it's used for butchering meat.

It's got a serrated edge,
it's used for butchering meat.

It's got a serrated edge,
it's used for butchering meat.

So, what we know is that two weapons
were taken to the scene.

So, what we know is that two weapons
were taken to the scene.

This one, that was held
by the 16-year-old in his waistband,

This one, that was held
by the 16-year-old in his waistband,

This one, that was held
by the 16-year-old in his waistband,

and then the other one
that we've got here

and then the other one
that we've got here

that a 14-year-old had,
which was the fatal weapon.

that a 14-year-old had,
which was the fatal weapon.

As you can see, it's a great
big knife, absolutely massive.

As you can see, it's a great
big knife, absolutely massive.

As you can see, it's a great
big knife, absolutely massive.

And you gotta think this was
being carried by a 14-year-old.

And you gotta think this was
being carried by a 14-year-old.

So, this knife has got a blade

that's around 25 centimetres
in length.

that's around 25 centimetres
in length.

And we know
from the pathology results

And we know
from the pathology results

that it went into Fred's chest
around 15, 16 centimetres

that it went into Fred's chest
around 15, 16 centimetres

that it went into Fred's chest
around 15, 16 centimetres

before it literally
cut his heart in two.

before it literally
cut his heart in two.

So, it's extremely tragic.

Until the investigation commenced,
we were completely unaware

Until the investigation commenced,
we were completely unaware

of what was going on
in the background.

of what was going on
in the background.

And it wasn't until we started
digging into the mobile phones

And it wasn't until we started
digging into the mobile phones

and all of the evidence
and the messages

that we understand the full picture

of how this has escalated
over a number of days.

of how this has escalated
over a number of days.

These boys weren't really
known to each other before.

These boys weren't really
known to each other before.

They'd crossed paths once
at a party,

but they weren't friends
or associates.

It was only
because of those messages

It was only
because of those messages

that involved
their wider circle of friends

that involved
their wider circle of friends

that it's just escalated
so senselessly,

that it's just escalated
so senselessly,

so needlessly,
resulting in Fred's death.

so needlessly,
resulting in Fred's death.

So, this has all occurred after
a bit of a dispute over a girl...

So, this has all occurred after
a bit of a dispute over a girl...

..and losing face, we would say.

The 14-year-old boy has lost face
over what's happened.

The 14-year-old boy has lost face
over what's happened.

That's then transpired into violence
on the Monday

That's then transpired into violence
on the Monday

against one of Fred's friends.

against one of Fred's friends.

Then on the Tuesday,
Fred and another boy

Then on the Tuesday,
Fred and another boy

sought to get some revenge
for that earlier assault.

sought to get some revenge
for that earlier assault.

It was a bit of a tit for tat.

Again, there was another fight,
pretty low level,

Again, there was another fight,
pretty low level,

although the violence had escalated
slightly when Fred used his belt.

although the violence had escalated
slightly when Fred used his belt.

And that was a real catalyst, then,

for what occurs then
on the Wednesday.

The 14-year-old and 16-year-old
were in contact with each other...

The 14-year-old and 16-year-old
were in contact with each other...

..trying to get others involved,
to then hunt down Fred.

..trying to get others involved,
to then hunt down Fred.

They're talking around
bringing tools, coming "ballied up".

They're talking around
bringing tools, coming "ballied up".

And there was a clear inference then
to bring tools in the plural,

And there was a clear inference then
to bring tools in the plural,

not just one,
but tools for both of them,

not just one,
but tools for both of them,

that they wanted to go armed,

they wanted to have
that show of force.

We then see that plan
start coming into play

We then see that plan
start coming into play

with the picking up of a Voi scooter
from Northampton town centre.

with the picking up of a Voi scooter
from Northampton town centre.

We know that that's been hired

by the 14-year-old in an account
belonging to his mother.

by the 14-year-old in an account
belonging to his mother.

So we see the journey that he takes
from near to his home address

So we see the journey that he takes
from near to his home address

into the town centre to then go
and pick up the 16-year-old.

into the town centre to then go
and pick up the 16-year-old.

The knives are brought out
by the 14-year-old,

The knives are brought out
by the 14-year-old,

one's handed to the 16-year-old,
so they've got one each now.

one's handed to the 16-year-old,
so they've got one each now.

From there, they then travel up
towards Kingsthorpe College,

From there, they then travel up
towards Kingsthorpe College,

looking for Fred.

But they're late, Fred has
already left school for the day.

But they're late, Fred has
already left school for the day.

It's around quarter past,
twenty past three.

So, they then start
to follow the route

So, they then start
to follow the route

that Fred would've taken
to walk home,

at which point,
we then pick them up on CCTV.

at which point,
we then pick them up on CCTV.

As Fred is walking down
towards the Cock Hotel junction,

As Fred is walking down
towards the Cock Hotel junction,

we can see them travelling down
on their scooter.

we can see them travelling down
on their scooter.

So, Fred's
with one of his other friends

So, Fred's
with one of his other friends

who provided a key witness statement
to the police around what happened.

who provided a key witness statement
to the police around what happened.

After they crossed the road
and approached the other boys,

After they crossed the road
and approached the other boys,

there's a confrontation
between Fred and the 16-year-old,

there's a confrontation
between Fred and the 16-year-old,

one of the suspects.

He goes to the ground

and then the 14-year-old accomplice
who's with him

and then the 14-year-old accomplice
who's with him

steps over and approaches Fred.

The 14-year-old pulls out his knife,
and it's a really big knife,

The 14-year-old pulls out his knife,
and it's a really big knife,

and starts approaching Fred.

Fred's seen a knife, backs up,
but he's walking backwards

Fred's seen a knife, backs up,
but he's walking backwards

and he doesn't know
there's a tree behind him

and he doesn't know
there's a tree behind him

and unfortunately gets himself
cornered against a tree.

and unfortunately gets himself
cornered against a tree.

At which point,
the 14-year-old then lunges

At which point,
the 14-year-old then lunges

once to the side of his chest...

..going straight in
through his heart.

So it was only one stab wound,
and that's all it takes.

So it was only one stab wound,
and that's all it takes.

You know, this was
a whopping great big knife,

You know, this was
a whopping great big knife,

and unfortunately,
it cost Fred his life.

and unfortunately,
it cost Fred his life.

It was a catastrophic injury.

It was a catastrophic injury.

Fred suffered massive blood loss.

Within a matter of seconds,
he was unconscious and collapsed.

Within a matter of seconds,
he was unconscious and collapsed.

The coroner said
the knife touched his heart.

The coroner said
the knife touched his heart.

That's why - punctured his heart.

But this guy who killed my son
doesn't even know my son.

But this guy who killed my son
doesn't even know my son.

Doesn't know my son.

He wanna be hard. Social media.

He wanna be hard. Social media.

I think they're pressuring the child
to be what them is not.

I think they're pressuring the child
to be what them is not.

He talk on the social media
saying he gonna kill Fred.

He talk on the social media
saying he gonna kill Fred.

And then they do it.

And that dangerous weapon,
he buy it online.

And that dangerous weapon,
he buy it online.

He bought that knife online.

He bought that knife online.

He kill an innocent man. Stupid.

He kill an innocent man. Stupid.

I think times have really changed

from perhaps
when I used to be at school...

from perhaps
when I used to be at school...

..and there used to be disputes

and boys would have a fight
under the underpass after school,

and boys would have a fight
under the underpass after school,

and you'd go your separate ways,
and that'd be the end of it.

and you'd go your separate ways,
and that'd be the end of it.

Nowadays, it seems to be so many
young people are carrying knives,

Nowadays, it seems to be so many
young people are carrying knives,

you just don't know
what you are walking into

when these fights occur.

So, with the mobile phones
that we recovered,

we identified a number of images

we identified a number of images

that were of key importance
later on in the trial.

that were of key importance
later on in the trial.

And these showed
that the 16-year-old

And these showed
that the 16-year-old

is posing in his kitchen,
holding a great big machete.

is posing in his kitchen,
holding a great big machete.

He's got a face covering on,
and he's brandishing this knife

He's got a face covering on,
and he's brandishing this knife

clearly for social media
and his sort of... his reputation.

clearly for social media
and his sort of... his reputation.

We've got other images as well
that show the boys together again,

We've got other images as well
that show the boys together again,

holding other knives,
different knives,

holding other knives,
different knives,

out in the street as well,

trying to look fierce
and trying to look menacing.

trying to look fierce
and trying to look menacing.

All part of that image
and that reputation

All part of that image
and that reputation

they're trying to build
as, you know,

people not to be messed with,
people to be feared.

people not to be messed with,
people to be feared.

Really mixed emotions.

One, we're pleased, obviously,

that the offender
who stuck the knife into Fred

that the offender
who stuck the knife into Fred

and ultimately took his life,
he's been found guilty.

and ultimately took his life,
he's been found guilty.

That was always the priority
in this case.

That was always the priority
in this case.

The conversation that I had
with Fred's father, Rohan,

The conversation that I had
with Fred's father, Rohan,

was around, you know, he's the one

that we really need
to get convicted of this.

He's the one ultimately responsible.

He's the one ultimately responsible.

However, the 16-year-old, he played
a significant role in this.

However, the 16-year-old, he played
a significant role in this.

He's the one sending messages
the night before,

He's the one sending messages
the night before,

getting the 14-year-old to come,
bring the tools, come ballied up.

getting the 14-year-old to come,
bring the tools, come ballied up.

getting the 14-year-old to come,
bring the tools, come ballied up.

We see him on CCTV
going with a flying kick

We see him on CCTV
going with a flying kick

before the stabbing takes place
as well.

before the stabbing takes place
as well.

So he was heavily involved in it,
but for whatever reason,

So he was heavily involved in it,
but for whatever reason,

the jury returned
their "not guilty" verdicts.

the jury returned
their "not guilty" verdicts.

Very hurt...

..to know that my son life
just... just taken away.

..to know that my son life
just... just taken away.

..to know that my son life
just... just taken away.

Every day, I cry, cry, cry, cry,
if I tell you the truth.

Every day, I cry, cry, cry, cry,
if I tell you the truth.

I cry. I cry every day and night.

I cry. I cry every day and night.

I cry. I cry every day and night.

SNIFFS

I'm very hurt.

Very, very hurt.

Well, I just take one day at a time.

Well, I just take one day at a time.

I think, in a lot of ways...

..youth culture
has been hijacked by this.

..youth culture
has been hijacked by this.

I'm not trying to stereotype,
"All youth culture's the same,"

I'm not trying to stereotype,
"All youth culture's the same,"

but there's certain norms and values
that have been adopted,

but there's certain norms and values
that have been adopted,

but there's certain norms and values
that have been adopted,

regardless of your background,

because social media
has been the accelerant.

because social media
has been the accelerant.

What social media has done
has created a style icon,

What social media has done
has created a style icon,

What social media has done
has created a style icon,

a youth culture, almost,
around knife carrying

a youth culture, almost,
around knife carrying

in that it glamorises it
and normalises it.

in that it glamorises it
and normalises it.

SHOUTING

TEENAGER:Lacking. He's lacking.

TEENAGER:Lacking. He's lacking.

Lacking. He's lacking. Lacking.

Lacking. He's lacking. Lacking.

Lacking. He's lacking. Lacking.

So, bravado is part of it,
but it's also the fear

So, bravado is part of it,
but it's also the fear

that you will need a knife
at some point to protect yourself.

that you will need a knife
at some point to protect yourself.

that you will need a knife
at some point to protect yourself.

And in actual fact,
the bravado part of it,

And in actual fact,
the bravado part of it,

sometimes, for some kids
is actually saying,

sometimes, for some kids
is actually saying,

"Look, I've got a knife,
don't mess with me."

"Look, I've got a knife,
don't mess with me."

If you've got somebody that's
carrying a knife cos they're scared,

If you've got somebody that's
carrying a knife cos they're scared,

with a minor confrontation,

with a minor confrontation,

being fuelled by filming,
bravado, young people,

being fuelled by filming,
bravado, young people,

being fuelled by filming,
bravado, young people,

that's when we're seeing knives
being pulled out.

that's when we're seeing knives
being pulled out.

And the most horrendous situations
are coming

And the most horrendous situations
are coming

from such a small altercation.

from such a small altercation.

So, I suppose an age-old question is

So, I suppose an age-old question is

whether it's always possible
to find an explanation

whether it's always possible
to find an explanation

of why a child might carry out
a heinous act like murder.

of why a child might carry out
a heinous act like murder.

So is it because
they've been exposed to violence

So is it because
they've been exposed to violence

or they have parents or caregivers
that don't instil a moral compass?

or they have parents or caregivers
that don't instil a moral compass?

or they have parents or caregivers
that don't instil a moral compass?

And then another factor is that

I think it's very possible
for child perpetrators,

I think it's very possible
for child perpetrators,

for child killers, to actually enjoy

for child killers, to actually enjoy

the process of hurting somebody
and taking somebody's life.

the process of hurting somebody
and taking somebody's life.

A case that really stands out to me
is the murder of Brianna Ghey,

A case that really stands out to me
is the murder of Brianna Ghey,

A case that really stands out to me
is the murder of Brianna Ghey,

who was a 16-year-old
transgender schoolgirl.

who was a 16-year-old
transgender schoolgirl.

And she was murdered
by two individuals,

And she was murdered
by two individuals,

Scarlett Jenkinson
and Eddie Ratcliffe,

Scarlett Jenkinson
and Eddie Ratcliffe,

who were both 15 years old.

REPORTER:It's the moment
Brianna Ghey met her killers.

REPORTER:It's the moment
Brianna Ghey met her killers.

CCTV shows Scarlett Jenkinson,
labelled X here,

CCTV shows Scarlett Jenkinson,
labelled X here,

chatting to Eddie Ratcliffe,
labelled Y.

chatting to Eddie Ratcliffe,
labelled Y.

Brianna has just got off a bus and
would be murdered not long after.

Brianna has just got off a bus and
would be murdered not long after.

Brianna has just got off a bus and
would be murdered not long after.

One thing that really stands out
to me about the Brianna Ghey case

One thing that really stands out
to me about the Brianna Ghey case

is the fact that it appears
to be very pre-planned.

is the fact that it appears
to be very pre-planned.

So it was Scarlett's plan
in the beginning,

So it was Scarlett's plan
in the beginning,

but she encouraged Eddie
to join in with her,

but she encouraged Eddie
to join in with her,

and they exchanged thousands
of messages.

She befriended Brianna in advance
and invited her out to the park.

She befriended Brianna in advance
and invited her out to the park.

She befriended Brianna in advance
and invited her out to the park.

And it felt like they took a delight
in the planning.

And it felt like they took a delight
in the planning.

REPORTER:
Jurors at their trial late last year

REPORTER:
Jurors at their trial late last year

were shown this handwritten
so-called murder plan,

were shown this handwritten
so-called murder plan,

on which Scarlett Jenkinson mapped
out the barbarism they would commit.

on which Scarlett Jenkinson mapped
out the barbarism they would commit.

on which Scarlett Jenkinson mapped
out the barbarism they would commit.

OFFICER:Scarlett, you are
under arrest on suspicion of murder.

OFFICER:Scarlett, you are
under arrest on suspicion of murder.

OFFICER:Scarlett, you are
under arrest on suspicion of murder.

How come I'm a suspect?
How come you're a suspect?

Is it cos I'm the last person
that's seen her, or is it...?

Is it cos I'm the last person
that's seen her, or is it...?

I don't know.

All the information I've received
is you are a suspect, OK?

All the information I've received
is you are a suspect, OK?

These are two kids
who had a hit list

These are two kids
who had a hit list

of kids that they could
potentially kill.

of kids that they could
potentially kill.

of kids that they could
potentially kill.

And they were really immersed in

And they were really immersed in

how fantastic and exciting
it would be

how fantastic and exciting
it would be

to end the life of somebody.

to end the life of somebody.

So that is a shocking way
of thinking.

So that is a shocking way
of thinking.

So, when we look back in time,

children that go on
to commit violence like murder

children that go on
to commit violence like murder

is nothing new -
that's been happening for decades.

is nothing new -
that's been happening for decades.

I would say that
in the vast majority of cases,

I would say that
in the vast majority of cases,

there's usually something to do
with their psychiatric make-up.

there's usually something to do
with their psychiatric make-up.

But I think it's also fair to say
that there are exceptions.

But I think it's also fair to say
that there are exceptions.

REPORTER:Two 14-year-old boys
lured a man to his death,

REPORTER:Two 14-year-old boys
lured a man to his death,

killing him simply for fun.

The victim's family said
the teenagers had been brutal.

The victim's family said
the teenagers had been brutal.

He boasted about the killing
to school friends.

He boasted about the killing
to school friends.

Obviously, you don't go
to work thinking,

Obviously, you don't go
to work thinking,

"I wonder how many
14-year-old murderers

"I'm gonna deal with today."

And even now,
here we are 25 years ago,

And even now,
here we are 25 years ago,

and to talk about it,
and it makes me think,

and to talk about it,
and it makes me think,

"Well, why?
Why on earth did this happen?"

"Well, why?
Why on earth did this happen?"

REPORTER:In this park in Bedford,
two 14-year-old boys

REPORTER:In this park in Bedford,
two 14-year-old boys

lured a man to his death,
killing him simply for fun.

lured a man to his death,
killing him simply for fun.

Their victim was Mohammed Aslam, who
had been sitting on a park bench.

Their victim was Mohammed Aslam, who
had been sitting on a park bench.

Their victim was Mohammed Aslam, who
had been sitting on a park bench.

April 1999.

It was close to his birthday,
he'd been let down by his friends.

It was close to his birthday,
he'd been let down by his friends.

He'd went out
and got hopelessly drunk

He'd went out
and got hopelessly drunk

and sat on a park bench
down by The Slipe...

and sat on a park bench
down by The Slipe...

..and then his body was found.

..and then his body was found.

It was evident immediately
he'd been savagely beaten.

It was evident immediately
he'd been savagely beaten.

It was evident immediately
he'd been savagely beaten.

There was an imprint
of this man's head in the ground,

There was an imprint
of this man's head in the ground,

and that shows the level of ferocity
that the offenders had used on him.

and that shows the level of ferocity
that the offenders had used on him.

and that shows the level of ferocity
that the offenders had used on him.

There was bits of wood
around with blood

There was bits of wood
around with blood

and pallets that would have been
used in the attack,

and pallets that would have been
used in the attack,

and it became clear
after a couple of days

and it became clear
after a couple of days

that one of the offenders

had began boasting
that they had killed a man.

had began boasting
that they had killed a man.

There were two people involved.
Both were 14.

There were two people involved.
Both were 14.

Terence Lambert and Sergio Pantano.

Terence Lambert and Sergio Pantano.

As the investigation unravels,

As the investigation unravels,

you begin to question,
what's the motivation behind this?

you begin to question,
what's the motivation behind this?

Both went to good schools,
both came from good families.

Both went to good schools,
both came from good families.

So there's nothing on the face of it
in their background to indicate

So there's nothing on the face of it
in their background to indicate

that they had a challenge around
why they would want to do this.

that they had a challenge around
why they would want to do this.

It's evident
if you put a pallet on somebody,

It's evident
if you put a pallet on somebody,

jump up and down on that,

you're gonna cause
very, very serious harm to somebody,

you're gonna cause
very, very serious harm to somebody,

but they found it quite amusing
and ran away laughing so hard

but they found it quite amusing
and ran away laughing so hard

that they could hardly run away
from the scene,

that they could hardly run away
from the scene,

which... is unbelievable.

which... is unbelievable.

Truly unbelievable.

REPORTER:Judge Daniel Rodwell
described the evidence

REPORTER:Judge Daniel Rodwell
described the evidence

as a "chilling catalogue
of gratuitous violence

as a "chilling catalogue
of gratuitous violence

"which gives every indication

"that it was carried out
for the fun of it".

"that it was carried out
for the fun of it".

I think trying to understand
why these things happen is...

I think trying to understand
why these things happen is...

I think trying to understand
why these things happen is...

I think trying to understand
why these things happen is...

Even now, I find it difficult to do,
and I would challenge anybody

Even now, I find it difficult to do,
and I would challenge anybody

Even now, I find it difficult to do,
and I would challenge anybody

to come up with a rationale
why that should be.

to come up with a rationale
why that should be.

And I can't imagine
what the motivation for that was

And I can't imagine
what the motivation for that was

And I can't imagine
what the motivation for that was

other than gratuitous violence,
evil.

other than gratuitous violence,
evil.

I've been asked
about the term "evil".

I've been asked
about the term "evil".

I can understand why people use it

when they're trying to convey
across the hatred of a heinous act

when they're trying to convey
across the hatred of a heinous act

by an individual
in something like a news report.

by an individual
in something like a news report.

So I understand it,
but it's not part of my world.

So I understand it,
but it's not part of my world.

But I do have my equivalence
within forensic psychiatry.

But I do have my equivalence
within forensic psychiatry.

So my equivalent would be
an individual

So my equivalent would be
an individual

who's completely lacking in empathy
and is completely callous

who's completely lacking in empathy
and is completely callous

and they don't care about the rights
or the wellbeing of others.

and they don't care about the rights
or the wellbeing of others.

Plus, they don't have
that moral barrier

Plus, they don't have
that moral barrier

to stop them going out
and committing violence.

to stop them going out
and committing violence.

When I hear of a child
who has committed murder,

When I hear of a child
who has committed murder,

it's more likely
that they're gonna get involved

it's more likely
that they're gonna get involved

in an altercation at a party

in an altercation at a party

or somewhere where kids congregate

or somewhere where kids congregate

and that somebody
is going to have thought

and that somebody
is going to have thought

that it was a bright idea to take
a knife out with them that day.

that it was a bright idea to take
a knife out with them that day.

RINGING TONE

CALLER:
'Hello, erm... Address? 999.'

SHOUTING

CALL HANDLER:
'This is the ambulance service.'

SHOUTING

SHOUTING

'No, no, no, they're not breathing.'
CALLER:'Please hurry up.'

'No, no, no, they're not breathing.'
CALLER:'Please hurry up.'

'They've just been stabbed.
It's a house party. Please.'

'They've just been stabbed.
It's a house party. Please.'

I'd had loads of missed calls.

I think it was, like,
37 missed calls from Mikey...

I think it was, like,
37 missed calls from Mikey...

..and other numbers
that I didn't know.

..and other numbers
that I didn't know.

My heart was in my throat,

My heart was in my throat,

like, to have that many calls,
what's happened?

like, to have that many calls,
what's happened?

CALL HANDLER:'Listen to me.
Listen to what I'm saying, OK?

CALL HANDLER:'Listen to me.
Listen to what I'm saying, OK?

'Is the attacker still nearby?'

CALLER: 'I don't know. I don't know.

'I don't know. I don't know.'
'OK, darling.

'Is there any serious bleeding?'
'Yes. Very serious.'

'Is there any serious bleeding?'
'Yes. Very serious.'

Mikey's friend,
he answered his phone.

Mikey's friend,
he answered his phone.

And he said,
"Mikey's been stabbed."

I-I didn't even know what to think.
Like, I thought, "No, he hasn't."

I-I didn't even know what to think.
Like, I thought, "No, he hasn't."

I-I didn't even know what to think.
Like, I thought, "No, he hasn't."

I was saying,
"No, he hasn't. No, he hasn't."

He was like, "Yeah, he has."
And I said, "Is he all right?

He was like, "Yeah, he has."
And I said, "Is he all right?

"Get an ambulance. Why are you
ringing me? Get an ambulance."

"Get an ambulance. Why are you
ringing me? Get an ambulance."

And then when we pulled up...

..there was a white tent up.

VOICE BREAKING:So I knew.

They were in their forensic suits.

They were in their forensic suits.

The police just come over,
the policeman, and he just said...

The police just come over,
the policeman, and he just said...

Erm...

Erm...

"A young man's been stabbed here
and killed tonight,

"A young man's been stabbed here
and killed tonight,

"A young man's been stabbed here
and killed tonight,

"and we believe
it's your son, Mikey."

"and we believe
it's your son, Mikey."

It does still get to you, even
after a long time in the police.

It does still get to you, even
after a long time in the police.

When you hear the details, the
emotional accounts from witnesses,

When you hear the details, the
emotional accounts from witnesses,

it does... it does get to you.

I went out to meet Hayley.
And it is hard.

I went out to meet Hayley.
And it is hard.

You walk into someone's home,
erm, who've just lost a loved one...

You walk into someone's home,
erm, who've just lost a loved one...

You walk into someone's home,
erm, who've just lost a loved one...

All I can remember saying
to Mark was,

All I can remember saying
to Mark was,

"Please get them.
Please go and get them."

"Please get them.
Please go and get them."

It's horrific to think that people
take knives to teenage parties.

It's horrific to think that people
take knives to teenage parties.

It's horrific to think that people
take knives to teenage parties.

But knives were drawn
and then something happened.

But knives were drawn
and then something happened.

NEWSREADER:Mikey Roynon
was fatally stabbed in the neck

NEWSREADER:Mikey Roynon
was fatally stabbed in the neck

with a large zombie knife
during a house party in Bath.

with a large zombie knife
during a house party in Bath.

I can't believe kids carry those
around with them.

I can't believe kids carry those
around with them.

Like, where do they get them from?
It's shocking.

Like, where do they get them from?
It's shocking.

He was my only son.
Didn't need another one.

He was my only son.
Didn't need another one.

I always say he was my friend,
as well.

I always say he was my friend,
as well.

I know he's my son,
but he's my friend.

Like, we told each other everything.

Because it was a murder,

they can't release the body to the
funeral directors for quite a while.

they can't release the body to the
funeral directors for quite a while.

they can't release the body to the
funeral directors for quite a while.

That broke my heart. Erm...

That broke my heart. Erm...

He obviously had to be identified.

He obviously had to be identified.

Erm, I couldn't do it.

Erm, I couldn't do it.

The last time I seen him,
he walked out the door,

The last time I seen him,
he walked out the door,

and I said to him,
"Oh, you look handsome."

and I said to him,
"Oh, you look handsome."

And he went,
"All right, Mum, love you."

And he went,
"All right, Mum, love you."

And, like, give me a cheeky grin.
And I said, "Love you."

And, like, give me a cheeky grin.
And I said, "Love you."

Erm, I don't... I don't wanna
remember anything else.

Erm, I don't... I don't wanna
remember anything else.

So, in the first few days
of a murder inquiry,

So, in the first few days
of a murder inquiry,

it's really important
that you take time to evaluate

it's really important
that you take time to evaluate

what you've got,
to understand where you're heading.

what you've got,
to understand where you're heading.

There were in excess
of 70 teenagers there.

There were in excess
of 70 teenagers there.

They witnessed probably

the most horrific thing
they'll ever see in their lives.

the most horrific thing
they'll ever see in their lives.

So we had a large number
of teenagers

So we had a large number
of teenagers

So we had a large number
of teenagers

who were extremely traumatised.

The majority didn't see
the actual incident,

The majority didn't see
the actual incident,

but importantly,
we had an eyewitness

but importantly,
we had an eyewitness

who wasn't involved in the incident

who wasn't involved in the incident

but knew
who had committed the murder.

but knew
who had committed the murder.

And he did the right thing.
He explained what had happened.

And he did the right thing.
He explained what had happened.

So, it was a 16th birthday party

So, it was a 16th birthday party

arranged by a girl
in an area of Bath,

arranged by a girl
in an area of Bath,

and it was kind of an open invite
to her friends and their friends.

and it was kind of an open invite
to her friends and their friends.

Mikey, we think
that he got a Snapchat

Mikey, we think
that he got a Snapchat

inviting him to this party,

inviting him to this party,

and when I've spoken to his friends,
they just said they were a bit like,

and when I've spoken to his friends,
they just said they were a bit like,

and when I've spoken to his friends,
they just said they were a bit like,

"Oh, why not? Let's go.
It might be all right.

"Oh, why not? Let's go.
It might be all right.

"It gives us something to do."

So they caught the bus to Bath
and went to the party.

So they caught the bus to Bath
and went to the party.

So they caught the bus to Bath
and went to the party.

But also at the house
were a group of teenagers

But also at the house
were a group of teenagers

from the Wiltshire area.

They had been invited
through a friend of a friend,

They had been invited
through a friend of a friend,

and they'd come over on the bus.

and they'd come over on the bus.

And it was
just a normal house party.

And it was
just a normal house party.

From the party itself,
we recovered a picture

From the party itself,
we recovered a picture

from one of the Snapchat accounts.

It showed a group of youth,
sat round on the decking

It showed a group of youth,
sat round on the decking

at the back of the party where
the murder was going to happen.

at the back of the party where
the murder was going to happen.

And everyone seemed to be having
a good time.

And everyone seemed to be having
a good time.

And then something happened.

We still don't know
what the trigger was.

Suddenly, there was a standoff
between two groups.

Suddenly, there was a standoff
between two groups.

We think it was a group of boys
from Bristol

We think it was a group of boys
from Bristol

and these boys from Wiltshire,
and knives were drawn.

and these boys from Wiltshire,
and knives were drawn.

and these boys from Wiltshire,
and knives were drawn.

Mikey suffered one wound.

We believe he was attacked
from behind,

We believe he was attacked
from behind,

so he may not have seen
the attacker.

so he may not have seen
the attacker.

Shane Cunningham, he was 16.

Shane Cunningham, he was 16.

Shane Cunningham, he was 16.

And it was one very powerful blow
into the back of his neck.

And it was one very powerful blow
into the back of his neck.

And it was one very powerful blow
into the back of his neck.

He was supported
by Cartel Bushnell, who was 15.

He was supported
by Cartel Bushnell, who was 15.

He was supported
by Cartel Bushnell, who was 15.

People started to flee
from the house,

People started to flee
from the house,

and Mikey himself moved through the
house, where he collapsed outside.

and Mikey himself moved through the
house, where he collapsed outside.

You can imagine, you've got
screaming teenagers down the phone.

You can imagine, you've got
screaming teenagers down the phone.

CALLER:
'Hello, erm... Address? 999.'

CALLER:
'Hello, erm... Address? 999.'

SHOUTING

'There's a lot of people here.
Please come, please come.'

'There's a lot of people here.
Please come, please come.'

You've got very upset neighbours.

You've got very upset neighbours.

Some of the neighbours were
administering first aid at the time.

Some of the neighbours were
administering first aid at the time.

CALL HANDLER:'I'm going to tell you
how to do chest compressions.

CALL HANDLER:'I'm going to tell you
how to do chest compressions.

'I need you to pump the chest hard
and fast at least twice per second.'

'I need you to pump the chest hard
and fast at least twice per second.'

'I need you to pump the chest hard
and fast at least twice per second.'

'We're doing chest compressions.'

The initial minutes are utter chaos.

The initial minutes are utter chaos.

'I'm gonna count with you,
keep doing those compressions.

'I'm gonna count with you,
keep doing those compressions.

'Can they hear me?'
'OK.'

'Can they hear me?'
'OK.'

'OK, one, two, three, four.'

'OK, one, two, three, four.'

So, the investigation,
it was pointing towards

So, the investigation,
it was pointing towards

these two individuals
being involved in the murder.

these two individuals
being involved in the murder.

And we then began to work
on securing enough evidence.

And we then began to work
on securing enough evidence.

So, when the actual incident
had happened and they fled,

So, when the actual incident
had happened and they fled,

we caught them on CCTV,

we caught them on CCTV,

very briefly,
discussing the incident.

very briefly,
discussing the incident.

Shane said to Cartel about the knife
getting stuck in Mikey's neck.

Shane said to Cartel about the knife
getting stuck in Mikey's neck.

Shane said to Cartel about the knife
getting stuck in Mikey's neck.

And then we found a zombie knife
forced down a drain,

And then we found a zombie knife
forced down a drain,

and that was the murder weapon.

I would describe them
as combat knives.

They're also described
as zombie knives.

They're also described
as zombie knives.

They're very long weapons.

They have a very long cutting edge,
and then the back is very serrated.

They have a very long cutting edge,
and then the back is very serrated.

My view -
they're designed for one thing,

My view -
they're designed for one thing,

and that's to kill.

We found Shane's DNA on the handle
and Mikey's forensics on the blade.

We found Shane's DNA on the handle
and Mikey's forensics on the blade.

We found Shane's DNA on the handle
and Mikey's forensics on the blade.

We found Shane's DNA on the handle
and Mikey's forensics on the blade.

It wasn't until a few months later

that we realised that,
actually, we had another person.

that we realised that,
actually, we had another person.

Leo Knight, who was also 15.

He'd given an account as a witness
that just didn't add up.

He'd given an account as a witness
that just didn't add up.

There were a few question marks
around his clothing

There were a few question marks
around his clothing

being disposed of at the scene.

being disposed of at the scene.

And then,
as the investigation progressed,

And then,
as the investigation progressed,

we had some forensics back about
a knife that we then linked to him.

we had some forensics back about
a knife that we then linked to him.

we had some forensics back about
a knife that we then linked to him.

His DNA on the handle.

And then we found Mikey's blood
on the blade,

And then we found Mikey's blood
on the blade,

but importantly,
that was airborne blood.

but importantly,
that was airborne blood.

So that means that that knife
was being held aloft

So that means that that knife
was being held aloft

when Mikey's blood was airborne.

when Mikey's blood was airborne.

Our case was that, erm...

Our case was that, erm...

Leo had that knife out at the point
that Mikey was murdered.

Leo had that knife out at the point
that Mikey was murdered.

So they were the main key bits
of forensic evidence.

So they were the main key bits
of forensic evidence.

CCTV-wise, we had some good footage
from the bus journey,

CCTV-wise, we had some good footage
from the bus journey,

CCTV-wise, we had some good footage
from the bus journey,

which we say showed Leo with a knife
in his waistband,

which we say showed Leo with a knife
in his waistband,

hidden under clothing.

We also recovered footage
from McDonald's,

We also recovered footage
from McDonald's,

where we say that Shane was fiddling
with a knife

where we say that Shane was fiddling
with a knife

in the waistband of his clothing.

Only Shane Cunningham
had actually stabbed Mikey,

Only Shane Cunningham
had actually stabbed Mikey,

but the other two
were equally responsible

but the other two
were equally responsible

because of their roles
in producing knives

because of their roles
in producing knives

and supporting the main defendant.

and supporting the main defendant.

OFFICER:Was it you
that stabbed him in the neck?

Or was it somebody else
that stabbed him in the neck?

Or was it somebody else
that stabbed him in the neck?

They chose not to speak to us,
which is their right.

They chose not to speak to us,
which is their right.

OFFICER:
Is there some reason why you felt

OFFICER:
Is there some reason why you felt

that you had to have a knife
with you that day? No comment.

that you had to have a knife
with you that day? No comment.

Had anybody threatened you?
No comment.

Had anybody threatened you?
No comment.

So to this day, we still don't know
exactly what their mindset was.

So to this day, we still don't know
exactly what their mindset was.

So to this day, we still don't know
exactly what their mindset was.

OFFICER:
Tell me about knives at the party.

OFFICER:
Tell me about knives at the party.

Did you see people with knives
at the party?

Did you see people with knives
at the party?

They were three teenagers,
15, 16 years old.

They were three teenagers,
15, 16 years old.

Nothing remarkable about them.

There are probably hundreds
like them everywhere,

There are probably hundreds
like them everywhere,

in every town and city
across the country.

in every town and city
across the country.

If you were to look back
at someone's past and say,

If you were to look back
at someone's past and say,

"Are they likely to go out
and commit murder next week?"

"Are they likely to go out
and commit murder next week?"

Definitely not with these boys.

'It's the most horrendous feeling,

'It's the most horrendous feeling,

'knowing that you have to go
and face them,

'look them in the eye.

'look them in the eye.

'Like, they've taken your world,
your life.

'Like, they've taken your world,
your life.

'Mikey's life.'

There's no words to describe
how it feels to sit there and think,

There's no words to describe
how it feels to sit there and think,

There's no words to describe
how it feels to sit there and think,

"You've taken my only child
from me...

"You've taken my only child
from me...

"..and you... you're just sat
smiling, playing, looking."

"..and you... you're just sat
smiling, playing, looking."

"..and you... you're just sat
smiling, playing, looking."

You know... no words.

You know... no words.

To this day,
we don't know why he was killed.

A minor flare-up at a party
between kids.

A minor flare-up at a party
between kids.

It should have been, at worst case,
a punch or a big ruck

It should have been, at worst case,
a punch or a big ruck

It should have been, at worst case,
a punch or a big ruck

and ended up with a few bruises.

But because these defendants
chose to take knives with them,

But because these defendants
chose to take knives with them,

he lost his life.

It's like it's part
of their wardrobe, as it were.

It's like it's part
of their wardrobe, as it were.

Put your trainers on,
put your tracksuit on

Put your trainers on,
put your tracksuit on

and just pick up your zombie knife,
just in case.

and just pick up your zombie knife,
just in case.

It's a mindset
that I can't understand.

It's a mindset
that I can't understand.

Takes your breath away
when you wake up and you think,

Takes your breath away
when you wake up and you think,

"This has actually happened."

You think, "No, no, no."

I miss cooking for him.
He loved his mum's cooking.

I miss cooking for him.
He loved his mum's cooking.

I miss cooking for him.
He loved his mum's cooking.

I miss doing his washing terribly.

I miss doing his washing terribly.

VOICE BREAKING:
Hanging his clothes out on the line.

VOICE BREAKING:
Hanging his clothes out on the line.

I miss changing his bed.

I miss changing his bed.

Just doing things that you do
for your kids as a mum.

Just doing things that you do
for your kids as a mum.

He has his own washing basket
in his bedroom...

He has his own washing basket
in his bedroom...

and his clothes are still in there.

Cos I can't wash it
for the last time.

Cos I can't wash it
for the last time.

I just can't do it, so...

I just can't do it, so...

they'll probably stay in there
for the rest of my life

they'll probably stay in there
for the rest of my life

because I can't.

Knives are getting bigger.

It's like an arm's war.

A decade ago,
I would've been talking to parents

about checking the knife drawers
and particularly the small knives

about checking the knife drawers
and particularly the small knives

that could be hidden in your belt.

Now we're talking to parents
about checking those deliveries

Now we're talking to parents
about checking those deliveries

that arrive on your door.

Because the knives
that are being used are massive,

Because the knives
that are being used are massive,

either zombie knives or machetes.

This all spirals in an arm's war.

This all spirals in an arm's war.

If I think you are carrying a knife
and I need to protect myself,

If I think you are carrying a knife
and I need to protect myself,

I will carry a bigger knife because
that will protect me against you.

I will carry a bigger knife because
that will protect me against you.

And it goes on, and it goes on,
and it goes on, and it goes on.

And it goes on, and it goes on,
and it goes on, and it goes on.

Knives, easily accesible,

cheaper options. Social media
has been the accelerant.

cheaper options. Social media
has been the accelerant.

You know, certain things..
that you use to believe.

You know, certain things..
that you use to believe.

“My child could never get
involved in this”

“My child could never get
involved in this”

Really?!
Check what’s on their phone.

Really?!
Check what’s on their phone.

Check what..who they’re
associating with.. online.

Check what..who they’re
associating with.. online.

Three years down the line,
you don't ever forget that day.

Three years down the line,
you don't ever forget that day.

Three years down the line,
you don't ever forget that day.

This is the field where Olly was
lured to... consequently murdered.

This is the field where Olly was
lured to... consequently murdered.

This is the field where Olly was
lured to... consequently murdered.

But we didn't want his friends

But we didn't want his friends

and people to remember this
as a bad place.

and people to remember this
as a bad place.

The thing is, that field was always
the safe place for the kids.

The thing is, that field was always
the safe place for the kids.

The thing is, that field was always
the safe place for the kids.

And because of what happened
to Olly,

they were staying away from it.

So Olly wouldn't want that,
and we didn't want it.

So Olly wouldn't want that,
and we didn't want it.

So... we came up with the idea
of putting a bench there.

So... we came up with the idea
of putting a bench there.

So... we came up with the idea
of putting a bench there.

And then the tree came about

because we had an oak tree growing
in the back garden

because we had an oak tree growing
in the back garden

that had been there
as long as Olly has.

So we planted that, and then the
kids now decorate it at Christmas

So we planted that, and then the
kids now decorate it at Christmas

So we planted that, and then the
kids now decorate it at Christmas

and then they leave gifts and things
and messages to Olly.

and then they leave gifts and things
and messages to Olly.

and then they leave gifts and things
and messages to Olly.

You know, we often just think,
"Why us? Why Olly?"

You know, we often just think,
"Why us? Why Olly?"

He was only 13 for about six weeks.

He was only 13 for about six weeks.

His birthday was the 1st of November

His birthday was the 1st of November

and he was taken
on the 3rd of January,

so he didn't have... he didn't have
very long as a teenager.

so he didn't have... he didn't have
very long as a teenager.

But in his short period of time,
he gave so much.

But in his short period of time,
he gave so much.

I think the saddest thing
about losing a child is

I think the saddest thing
about losing a child is

the pain is never gonna go away...
ever.

the pain is never gonna go away...
ever.

You learn to live in pain.

I lost my only son, Joshua,
to knife crime in 2013.

I lost my only son, Joshua,
to knife crime in 2013.

I lost my only son, Joshua,
to knife crime in 2013.

He was stabbed once in the heart.

He was stabbed once in the heart.

He wasn't a gang member,
wasn't a drug dealer.

It was a minor altercation,
and a young man carried a knife,

It was a minor altercation,
and a young man carried a knife,

and the consequences
were devastating

and the consequences
were devastating

and are devastating
almost 11 years later.

and are devastating
almost 11 years later.

You know, every year,
there's a birthday, an anniversary,

You know, every year,
there's a birthday, an anniversary,

You know, every year,
there's a birthday, an anniversary,

a Mother's Day, a Father's Day,
a Christmas that come at you,

a Mother's Day, a Father's Day,
a Christmas that come at you,

hit you like a speeding train.

hit you like a speeding train.

I just want other parents
to be kind to themselves

I just want other parents
to be kind to themselves

and realise that the pain they're in

and the difficulties they face
are very, very normal.

and the difficulties they face
are very, very normal.

Now I focus on, you know,
how many young people

Now I focus on, you know,
how many young people

can I get to see the reality of
their choices before it's too late?

can I get to see the reality of
their choices before it's too late?

can I get to see the reality of
their choices before it's too late?

And so, it's...
that fuels me to keep going.

And so, it's...
that fuels me to keep going.

I think the main thing that
I've seen over the last ten years

I think the main thing that
I've seen over the last ten years

is the ages getting younger.

And the increase in murders
over such trivial, trivial things -

And the increase in murders
over such trivial, trivial things -

And the increase in murders
over such trivial, trivial things -

And the increase in murders
over such trivial, trivial things -

a look, a comment.

I think we've seen a huge increase

I think we've seen a huge increase

in crimes like that
that are happening.

in crimes like that
that are happening.

And you're just thinking,
"Children are dying

And you're just thinking,
"Children are dying

"over such trivial things
in this country."

"over such trivial things
in this country."

We must be doing more
for our future generation.

We must be doing more
for our future generation.