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(wind whooshing)

(♪)

(♪)

- [Del] This is Lees Ferry.

I’ve been here many times.

It’s where we always
load the boats

when we start our
Grand Canyon trips.

This is my friend Tom Vail.

He started Canyon Ministries

and took me on my very
first trip down the canyon.

No one knows the canyon
better than Tom,

and I was fortunate to
have him as my guide

on all the canyon
trips I’ve taken.

This is Dr. Andrew Snelling,

and sitting next to him
is Dr. John Whitmore.

Both are geologists.

You may recall Andrew
from our last film,

"Is Genesis History?"

Remember, Andrew took me to
an extinct volcano in Arizona

to discuss radioisotope dating
and the age of the earth.

John was Andrew’s
assistant on this trip.

He’s been a geology professor
at Cedarville University

for over 30 years.

He’s also spent a lot of time

studying the Coconino Sandstone
layer in the Grand Canyon.

The conventional paradigm
says the Coconino Sandstone

was formed over
millions of years

in a desert by the wind.

But John’s research
has clearly shown

that it was formed rapidly
underwater during the Flood.

This is a key piece of evidence
for the creation model.

Little did I know that
the same year we released

"Is Genesis History?"
in theaters,

Andrew was embarking
on a research project

down in the canyon.

He was looking for new evidence

that many of the enormous
layers of sediment

we see all around the world

were laid down during the Flood.

One of the things

that has always fascinated
creation scientists

are the huge folds that
can be seen in the canyon

and all over the world.

Andrew had a theory
he wanted to test.

If his theory was correct,

it would be important
newevidence regarding
earth history

and the geological timetable.

These two scientists have
spent much of their lives

finding evidence that supports
the history of Genesis,

but in all those instances,
their work was never filmed.

This time was different.

They took a cameraman
with them into the canyon

to capture what they were doing.

When I heard about it,

I realized that this was a way

to show something most
people have never seen,

creation scientists doing
the actual work of science.

How do scientists connect
the history in Genesis

with the world around us?

(hammer clanging)

How do they test their theories?

And what did the Flood do

to create the world
we live in today?

Our first documentary provided
an overview of creation science;

but in this documentary,

we’re going to explore how
creation science actually works,

because it is important
that you see for yourself

how scientists do science.

I’m Del Tackett.

I’m excited to be your guide

as we explore the rise of
mountains after the Flood.

Although I wasn’t a part of
their first trip to the canyon,

I met them many times
on their journey

and, just like the first film,

I learned an incredible amount.

But this time I found
myself asking questions

I had never thought
to ask before.

- [Andrew] So,
this is John’s lab.

- [John] Yeah, I’ve been here
at Cedarville for 30 years now

and done a lot of
work in this lab

and a couple other labs that
are next door to this one.

Over here we have what’s called
the petrographic microscope.

This is a microscope
that’s designed for
looking at thin sections.

And this is what
a thin section--

- [Del] These are the slides
that Ray produces for you?

- [John] Yep. This
is what Ray makes.

These are from his
lab in Calgary.

And he takes a rock like this

and will slice a really
thin layer off of it

and glue it on a glass slide,

then polish it down so
you can see through it.

And if you hold it
up to the light,

you can see that light
passes through that.

- It’s amazing.
- Yeah.

- [Del] Yeah, that’s awesome.

- And so that allows us

to study the sand grains
under the microscope.

- It’s quite an art to
make the thin sections.

- Yeah.

I’ve got a slide on the
microscope right now,

and this is one of
the thin sections

from the Coconino Sandstone,

and it has what we
call ooids in here.

And these are dolomite ooids.

- Ovoid shapes.
- Yeah.

They look like balls almost.

And what happens is you
get a little sand grain

rolling around in the surf

or rolling around
on an ocean bottom.

As it rolls around, just like
a kid rolling a snowball,

you know how a
snowball gets bigger?

- Yeah.

- These little sand grains

accumulate the
dolomite around them.

- [Andrew] So you can see
the sand grain in the middle,

that white spot and all
the coating around it.

- [John] This was amazing
evidence for us.

I still remember opening up
my email looking at this,

and I was just amazed

because this is just
incredible evidence

that the Coconino
was made underwater.

You can’t make these kinds
of things in a desert.

I presented this at a
national geology meeting

and I had a scientist come up

that knew I was a
young earth creationist

and was skeptical about
all the work I had done.

And every geologist
would look at that

and know that those
were ooids, except--

- Except if Coconino was
in front of the name.

- Isn’t that interesting?
- Yeah.

- As soon as it was Coconino--

- So it was just, "I
don’t want to see this."

- Yeah, he just would not
look at it, would not admit,

would not even study them to
see if they were ooids or not.

And he just said, "Nope,
those can’t be ooids.

"Those aren’t ooids."

And wanted to drop the
subject almost immediately.

I pressed him on
it a little bit,

but he didn’t want to
go any further on it.

- That’s what happens
when someone is
captive in a paradigm.

They don’t want to
see any evidence

that’s contrary
to that paradigm,

and that’s what was
happening to him.

- Yeah, that’s one
of the neat things

that we do as
creation scientists.

We have a different way
of looking at things,

and so we tend to collect data

and look for data that
probably other people miss,

or probably they
might’ve seen it,

but they really don’t
think very deeply about it

and think about
the implications.

And that’s one of the things

I think I enjoy most about
being a creation scientist

because there are so many
discoveries out there

that are just waiting for us.
- We're not constrained.

We’re not constrained

We’re able to ask questions
that they’re not asking.

- And that’s what’s
kind of driven you

to this research now, right?

I mean, because the
conventional paradigm

would’ve never gone
in to take samples

to look at the fold.
- No, they haven’t.

They’ve just talked
about these folds

and just assumed
that they were formed

long after the
rocks were formed.

And therefore there
had to be mechanisms

that allowed the rock to
bend when it was very hard.

As creation scientists,

we think these layers were
laid down during the Flood.

The folding occurred
only a year later

at the end of the Flood

when the mountains and plateaus
were rising in the west.

If that’s the case,

we wouldn’t expect
there to be evidence

of the rocks changing
under heat and pressure.

That’s what we’re investigating

and why we’re making
thin sections to look
inside the rocks.

From looking at it, anyone
looking at these folds,

you can see immediately
they’re so smooth

that it seemed intuitively

that these had to have been
formed when they were soft.

But we had to go in
and get the samples

so we could confirm that

plus rule out any objections
that might be raised.

It’s all part of
doing good science.

(♪)

Well, I’ve been doing
research in the Grand Canyon

for 27 years.

Here in the Grand Canyon,
you’ve got exposed to view

virtually a whole slice
through earth history.

And so that’s why it’s important

because it’s being
used as Exhibit A

for millions of years
and biological evolution.

And that’s why it’s important

that creationists also come
to the Grand Canyon and say,

"No, it’s Exhibit A for
creation and the Flood."

(♪) (water splashing)

(engine roaring)

- [Tom] What’s the choice?

- I can do either one, Andrew.

- Is it deep enough over there?

- [Tom] Over here? Okay.

(engine roaring)

We’re coming into the
Tapeats Sandstone here,

the outcropping at river level.

This is our target rock unit.

This is our first sample.

This is the same sandstone
as in the Carbon Canyon Fold.

It’s a good spot because it’s
something like five miles

from Carbon Canyon Fold.

If the sediments were still
soft, we wouldn’t expect
to find any difference

with the sample here
to the sample in the fold.

(hammering)

Oh, it shattered on me.

I’m marking where the bedding is

so we can reorient
it in the lab.

TSS, standing for Tapeats
Sandstone, sample one.

- Let’s stop for a second though

and go back a little
bit and talk about,

first of all, where
the rocks came from,

and how you got them,
and why, and so forth

so that we can lead up to
what the research is about.

- Well, a lot of people
ask me the question,

"Now, why the Grand Canyon?"

Let’s start with
something basic.

The reason why the Grand Canyon
is a geologist’s paradise

is that you’ve got this
giant slice in the earth

where the canyon is and
exposes all these layers.

It’s in a desert.

It’s almost a showcase
in the textbooks

about all these
different rock layers.

And so the question
is, when did they form?

How did they form?

What is their history?

We now know that
many of these layers

that we see exposed in the
walls of the Grand Canyon

stretch in some cases

right across the North
American continent and beyond.

- Andrew, the layer we were
looking at in Grand Canyon

is the Tapeats--
- Tapeats.

- ...Sandstone, that’s down near

the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

We can trace that layer

into the Colorado Rocky
Mountains near Colorado Springs,

we can trace it into
the Black Hills,

and we can trace that
same layer up to Greenland

as a continuous sheet
with no breaks in it.

- [Del] So that kind
of an understanding

of a layer that is so huge

leads your thinking
more to something global

than something local?
- Correct, correct.

So that tells you something
not only about the scale,

but we think the
Flood eroded away

enormous sections of the
pre-Flood continents,

then deposited that material

in layers one on
top of the other.

It’s like a stack of pancakes
miles deep all over the earth.

- And so when we talk
about the layers,

those layers are all formed as
a result of sediment, right?

Talk about those
layers, first of all,

and how they were formed,

and the layers that
we wanted to look at,

and why we wanted
to look at them.

- [John] We wanted to look
at those specific layers

because they’re at the
bottom of that huge stack.

If those layers were still
soft when they were folded,

they can’t be hundreds
of millions of years old.

- So imagine sand being
washed up on a beach.

How does it get cemented?

How does it turn from
sand into sandstone?

So what happens is,
when it’s deposited,

there’s water in between
those sand grains,

but the water has
chemicals dissolved in it.

And so when the water dries out,

those chemicals precipitate

and fill in all the spaces
between the sand grains

and harden it,
making it a cement.

- [John] We think a
lot of that cement

and some of the
grains would’ve broken

if the layers were hard
when they were bent.

- Well, after the layers were
deposited, everyone agrees

that the Colorado
Plateau was pushed up.

It was part of the
mountain building event

connected to the
Rocky Mountains.

We think this was happening
at the end of the Flood

when major earth movements

were creating new plateaus
and mountain ranges.

The folded layers are the
result of those movements.

It’s like a book.

Here are the various
sandstone, shale, limestone--

- These are all the
sedimentary layers.

- Now exposed by the canyon.

But this was pushed up.

Now, what’s interesting

is that the eastern
side of the canyon,

the layers have been
buckled like that.

They haven’t been
pushed up uniformly.

And so there’s been
folding of the layers.

And that was the
focus of our research

because the conventional
view is that

these layers were deposited
over 500 million years ago,

and this folding, they say,

didn’t occur until
70 million years ago.

So there’s a gap of several
hundred million years,

and in that timeframe,

you’d expect the water to dry
out between all the grains,

the cement to harden.

Now, you know as well as I do,

that if you try
to bend that rock,

what’s going to happen?

(Del chuckles)

- Well, first of all,
I can’t bend that rock,

but if I think about this one--

- Yeah, yeah. What’s
going to happen?

- So if this, for example,

let’s say this then represented

that plateau that
you’re talking about.

- Correct, yes.

- And so if we were to put
pressure underneath this

in order to try and bend it,

and if it’s hardened like
this, then we would say...

- It’s going to snap. -
It’s going to crumble.

- It will crumble.

See, you can bend
a rock like this,

hard rock like you’ve got there,

but you’ve got to do it
slowly with pressure and heat.

And the heat and the pressure
makes the rock plastic

and in a sense
makes it like putty

and it will bend slowly.

But because of the
heat and pressure

that is going to affect
the mineral grains,

it’s going to affect the cement

that binds the mineral
grains together.

In the conventional paradigm
of millions of years,

you can only cause that bending

if you have heat and pressure

causing metamorphic
changes in the rock.

And those changes will show up
clearly in the thin sections.

And therefore we want to
look under the microscope.

Has there been--

is there any evidence in these
layers that have been bent

of those metamorphic changes?

And that was a major point

because we have
to be able to show

that there hasn’t
been those changes

if it all occurred very rapidly

when the rock was still soft.

- So that’s what drew your
attention to the folds

and the desire then to do
the study and the research

at a more detailed level?

- And the interesting
thing is, Del,

because we have a different
framework of thinking

to look at these issues,

we’re asking different questions

to what the mainstream
geologists are asking.

They haven’t taken samples
and cut these thin sections

to look at the grains
under the microscope.

But that’s very
basic to understand.

People can’t...

It’s hard for people to grasp,

but we’re going to go to the
microscope scale to explain

and look at the timing of
the formation of mountains.

- [Del] Right.

- [Andrew] We’re zoomed in
on this research project,

on these folds,

but they are part
of a bigger context.

What produced these folds?

So at the end of the Flood,

as the ocean basins were sinking

and pulling the Floodwaters
off the continents,

an oceanic plate from
the Pacific basin

went under western North
America at a fairly flat angle.

- [John] And as a result,

this plate caused a number
of mountains and plateaus

to rise up almost to the
middle of the continent,

which is why there are so many
high plateaus and mountains

in the western United States.

- [Andrew] One enormous
area that was lifted up

was the Colorado Plateau.

But the plateau
didn’t lift up evenly,

and so some areas were
pushed up higher than others.

- [John] Now here’s
what’s interesting, Del,

a very large fold that
goes through that area

hundreds of miles long;

it’s the same one
Andrew was referring to,

and it’s called the
East Kaibab Monocline,

where mono refers to
one bend or one fold.

The monocline formed a dam,

water started collecting
in the lower area.

And so a big lake developed

and eventually found a
weak point in the monocline

and started to flow through it.

And it was that catastrophic
dam burst, we believe,

that carved out
the Grand Canyon.

- [Andrew] And so it’s because
of the carving of the canyon

that we have these
folds exposed to view.

And these are the
places that we sampled.

- [John] Let me show
you on our map where--

- [Del] Oh, yeah,
I’d love to see that.

- So this is a geological map.

You can see it’s been well used.

- Well used.
- Well used.

I’ve had this out in the Grand
Canyon many times in my pack.

- I can tell that if you’re
going to be a geologist,

you need to learn how
to unfold and fold maps.

- That’s right.

Yeah, you’ll notice that
this is a very colorful map.

Every color on here is a
different kind of rock layer.

- When we floated down the
canyon and looked at the layers,

these colors now represent
what we were seeing.

- [John] Every color
is a different layer.

The Grand Canyon
goes through here.

It starts way up here.

In fact, the very upper
part is not even on the map,

but it comes down
through this way,

wraps around, down this way,

goes off the map over there.

And this is just
the eastern part.

There’s a whole nother western
part that sits over there,

and Lake Mead after that.

- Is Carbon Canyon on here?

- Yes, Carbon Canyon is up here.

Okay, here we came down just
below 60 Mile Rapids here.

We took a regional sample

just above the Little
Colorado River,

and we came down here, parked,

and Carbon Canyon is up here.

- Okay.
- And here’s the fault line.

And the fold is right
on that fault line.

That’s the Butte Fault.

And you can see
it’s a north-south,

and that marks the
edge of that monocline.

- [Del] Yeah. So this is
where you took the samples?

- Yes, parked the boats,
walked up to the fold.

Carbon Canyon is a side canyon
to the main Grand Canyon,

and it cuts through
the folded layers

in the East Kaibab Monocline.

(♪)

We’re coming up the drainage
here of Carbon Creek

and got to go left and
climb up this scree slope

where there’s steps.

And so by hiking
up Carbon Canyon,

we come to the place where
the Tapeats Sandstone

is actually bent through 90
degrees in a spectacular bend

without the shattering.

If we look ahead,

we can follow the layering
essentially horizontal.

And as we get towards the
end of the canyon here,

you can see the layers
turn up to the skyline,

almost vertical.

You can see the
bend in the rocks.

You know, you’ve
been there before,

but you’ve only got
a mental picture.

Now you’re there in front of it.

You want to check your strategy.

You’ve already thought
about what your strategy is,

but now you’ve got to look,

can I trace one particular
band in the rock layers

through the fold?

- [John] We’ve put
orange duct tape

in places where
we want to sample,

and that helps us
keep track of the bed.

So we make sure we follow
the same bed through here.

On my camera, I’ve
got a GPS unit.

And so when I take a photograph,

if the GPS is locked in,

it will tell me precisely
where I took the photograph

and where our sample came from.

(♪)

- [Andrew] It’s getting
really upfront and personal

with the rocks.

Take notes to record the
location of the sample,

the thickness of the bed,

the dip and strike of the layer

if we can obtain
that information.

So it’s very intense,

and of course, you’re
working on a cliff face,

so you’ve got to
watch your footing.

- [Hilton] Oh, that’s a biggie.

- [Andrew] And
then we would go in

and we’d take those samples
in the specified way,

and mark the sample,

so we knew where was
the top of the bed

because you’ve got to orient it.

Label the bag,

put an extra card in
with a sample number.

It’s back to basics.

This is about actually taking
measurements in the field,

observations in the
field, making notes,

and then going to look at the
samples under the microscope.

It’s very basic geology.

And then you get your samples

and you get out of there
as quickly as possible,

back to a more hospitable place.

- [Hilton] You’re in
Disneyland here, yeah?

- Yep. Absolutely.

- [Hilton] What is
this to a geologist?

- This is heaven on earth.

(chuckles)

(♪)

(water flowing)

(birds chirping)

(water splashes)

(people yelling)

- Oh, my!
- Yeah!

Woo-hoo.

Woo!

Woah!

(water rushing rapidly)

(water splashing)

(water rushing rapidly)

(engine roaring)

- The nice thing
about geologic maps

is that the geologist will often
draw a line across the map,

and then he’ll show you

what he thinks the layers
look like underneath.

So you can see these lines
like, here’s a B right here.

And all the way up
there is a B primed.

And you can come down here
to the map and here’s the B.

And all the way over
there’s the B primed.

- [Del] Awesome.

- [John] And notice that
this particular line

crosses the structure

that is called the
East Kaibab Monocline.

And that’s the
fault and the fold

partly associated with
the Carbon Canyon area.

And so, right here

is where the East Kaibab
Monocline goes through.

And you see how the--
- The bending of the rock.

- [John] The rocks are
nice and flat right here,

and then all of a
sudden there’s a bend.

- [Del] Yes.

- [Andrew] And there’s a
lower elevation over here

than back over here.

- [John] And so what happened,
what we think happened,

is the rock down here in
the basement is really hard,

and it broke and faulted,

and that’s the
fault right there.

But the rocks on top
were relatively soft.

And so as the hard rock pushed
the softer rock up above,

instead of breaking, these
rocks up here bent and folded.

- It’s like having
a layer of wet sand,

and underneath you’ve
got a wooden block,

and you push the wooden block up

and the sand will
drape over the--

- Yeah, right.

- [Del] That occurred somewhere

then close to the Flood time?

- [Andrew] Yeah, well,
the Tapeats Sandstone

was deposited
early in the Flood.

And at the end of the Flood,

when earth movements took
place to re-equilibrate,

the folding occurred then,

and the sediments were
still damp and soft,

and therefore they
could bend quite easily.

And then they dried out

and we had the cementation
of the grains afterwards.

And then we motored down here

and all the way past

Phantom Ranch,

all the way around
here, came around to,

this is the Monument Fold.

This is still the
Tapeats Sandstone.

It’s actually marked on the
map that there’s a fold there,

but there’s also a fault line.

- There’s a fault underneath,

and the rock
underneath pushed up

and made the rocks on top
fold because they were soft.

(water flowing)

We’re going to be
looking at this big fold,

or this big bend in the rock.

You can see the granite
that pushed up right here,

making the big fold
in the Tapeats.

It looks like the Tapeats
has bent plastically

right over top of this fault.

It doesn’t look like the
fault has extended up

into the Tapeats
Sandstone at all.

- And I think the
easiest way to sample it

is to come over and go up
that slope to get to it there,

then come over and get to it

on the other side of that slope.

- [John] Maybe that thin bed
might be the better one to get,

because of the finer
grain on the top.

- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree.

- Yeah.
- I agree.

- Well, why don’t you and
I go up with the ladder?

Let Andrew stay down here.

We’ll tape everything
that we can do.

- The plan is to
sample two beds.

Okay, the fold comes like this

and does this.

Okay?

That’s the overall profile.

So because of the scree slope,

we’re going to sample in here,

and we’re going
to sample in here.

(♪)

- Well, it’s just
an interesting area

that we want to try to sample.

So we’re going to take a sample

right where this bed
is kind of smeared.

- [Tom] And this is
shifted this way,

but it did so without
cracking the rock.

- [John] So, the rocks
pose some questions to us,

the folds pose some
questions to us,

and not just to a
creation scientist,

but to a conventional
scientist as well.

But then, we want to go in
there, and study the rocks,

and look at that fold,

and look at the rocks
under the microscope,

and see which paradigm
fits the best.

- [Andrew] And so, the argument

is not about that
physical evidence,

it’s how you interpret
that physical evidence.

And to interpret it, you’ve
got to have a framework.

And our view of history is
that Genesis is history.

The Bible is an
eyewitness account

given to us by the
Creator who was there,

and it gives us a timeframe.

It gives us a description of
what happened during the Flood.

And so we can take
that description

and look at the geological
implications, for example,

and then go out and
test those implications.

(hammer clanging)

- [John] Good. Perfect.

- [Tom] Okay.

Seven down, one to go.

(water flowing)

- [Del] So your research

was then to take
samples in those folds,

but you also took other samples.

- [Andrew] Yes,
well, as a control,

we obviously collected
samples away from the folds,

so that we can make comparisons.

That’s why we took samples from
where the rocks are folded,

and then we took
regional samples

from where the rocks are flat,

but all in the same layer.

If all the rocks
from the different
locations are the same,

that’s a strong indicator

the layers were soft
when they folded

and therefore not
millions of years old.

And we motored all the way down,

and we did another regional
sample at Doris Rapids.

- [John] Doris
Rapids, up in here.

- [Andrew] And
then, Matkatamiba,

we looked at a fold in the Muav.

But there were other
samples we got in between

of the Bright Angel Shale
and the Muav Limestone

because these are
the three units.

And after that, we went to

where we helicopter out,
there’s a fold there.

- [Hilton] You got
your pick on your side.

- That’s right.

- [Hilton] You got your
loupe around your neck.

- Ready to go up the ladder.
- And you got a ladder!

- Got all my tools on me,

so I don’t have to come
down more than once.

- [Andrew] A ladder like that,

well, because the fold
that we want to look at

is at the base of a cliff,

but it’s still quite
a climb up to it,

and it’s a vertical face,

so we’ve brought
this ladder along,

so that we can get up to it.

This has been in the making
for what, four years now.

Four years.

We’ve talked about this
for a long time beforehand.

But the planning
to make this happen

has been going on for four years

through the whole process
of getting permission

to do the sampling.

This is significant

because you can see the
way it’s been folded,

that sort of plasticity

that enabled it to bend like
that without shattering.

If you take a hard rock,

it would’ve fractured all
the way through there,

and you’d see lots of evidence
of that, but you don’t.

Sure, there’s joints
there, there’s cracks,

but they’re not
shatter-type cracks.

The whole rock would’ve
just disintegrated

with the bending motion.

- [Hilton] You’re not afraid
of heights, obviously.

- No. I’ve done a lot of
house painting in my years.

So, I’ve been on
a lot of ladders.

So, this ladder was very stable,

and...

glad my wife wasn’t here.

(all chuckle)

- So that’s an overview
of the project.

And as we said before, the
reason we wanted to do it

is nobody had actually collected
samples from these folds

and looked at the rock
under the microscope

and studied them to
determine the timetable

for deposition, folding,
and cementation.

What’s the order?
Which is critical.

(♪)

- [John] I just
think that this was

one of the best raft trips I’ve
been on in the Grand Canyon.

I think we collected some
good samples on the trip.

And we’ll be anxious to see
what these things look like

under the microscope.

- Well, Andrew?

Here we are.

- What do you have to say?
- Well done, everyone.

Fantastic trip.

(♪)

- [Del] When we
were in Cedarville,

we were looking at the maps

and discussing all the research.

But I asked John

if there was a place
where we could actually go

to see the forces that
caused those folds,

and that took us to
the Uinta Mountains.

(♪)

(♪)

John, the vista here
is unbelievable.

What are we looking
at here first?

- [John] So we’re at the western
end of the Uinta Mountains.

They extend here out to the east

for another hundred
miles or more.

And we’re looking at some of
the higher peaks in the Uintas,

probably right around
13,000 feet here.

It’s beautiful, isn’t it?
- It is.

It is phenomenal.

John, can you take me
back here for a second?

Let’s talk about how
we got all of this.

- [John] Yeah, Del.

I think these mountains
that we’re looking at

actually rose at the
end of the Flood.

So, the earth was
destroyed by the Flood.

And then, as the Flood
ended, Psalm 104 tells us

that the mountains rose up
and the valleys sank down.

I think these mountains that
we see in western North America

and all the other high
and rugged mountains

that we see around the world

rose up at the end
of Noah’s Flood.

That’s why they’re so high.

They were never
eroded by the Flood.

Other mountains that rose
up earlier in the Flood,

like the Appalachian Mountains
or the Atlas Mountains,

were eroded down to the smaller
mountains that we see today

by the Floodwaters.

- So, during the Flood,

we have those massive
sedimentary layers

that are being laid all over,
like the Tapeats Sandstone.

You told me it just covered
most of North America.

- Right.
- Massive, massive.

But they’re horizontal, right?

- [John] They are.

- Most all of those
layers are horizontal.

What happened then?

- [John] Well, we see some
of the horizontal layers

that are in these mountains

towards the tops
of these mountains,

and these horizontal layers
actually formed below sea level.

So they formed during the Flood,

but they would’ve formed

at depths that were
much lower than--

We’re at 10,000 feet right now.

And so, they would’ve formed
under the Floodwaters.

And then, after the Flood,

they would’ve risen to the
heights that they are now.

- Was that a miraculous event,

or can we see forces at play

that God, of course,
was involved in that?

But what forces would
move mountains this size?

- Well, we think it
goes back to our idea

of catastrophic plate tectonics.

And so,

at the end of the Flood,

a plate was going under
western North America,

creating the mountains like
the Rockies and the Uintas.

In South America, another
plate was being subducted

to create the high mountains
and volcanoes of the Andes.

And in Asia, two
different plates collided

to form the enormous mountain
ranges of the Himalayas.

In all these instances,

we think the plates had
to be moving very quickly

to have the energy to
create such high mountains.

But these mountains formed
at the very end of the Flood.

And that’s why
they’re still so high.

- Well, I guess, the point,
John, I hear you making

is that even after
the Flood is over,

and Noah has landed in the Ark,

that there are a lot
of catastrophic events

that are going on all over.

- That’s right.

- That is what then shapes
a lot of what we see.

- When Noah gets off the Ark,

it’s not the end of catastrophe.

To raise mountains up like this,

you’re going to have
big earthquakes.

And as these mountains rise,

they’re full of this wet,
unconsolidated flood sediment.

That’s a recipe for
huge landslides.

Some of the biggest
landslides that we know about

are here in the
southern part of Utah.

So don’t think of the
mountains rising up

as we see them right here,

but think of a lot more
rock in between here

as these mountains
originally rose up.

- And so that erosion would
even be more profound, I guess.

- Yeah, we have big storms
coming into the continents.

And especially, if
you get those storms

at high elevations like this,

that water has a lot of
energy as it runs downhill

many thousands of feet.

Also, at higher
elevations like this,

you have the opportunity
for snow to fall.

And if you have large
amounts of snow that falls,

you get the development
of glacial ice.

- And that glacial ice

covered a lot of the northern
part of North America,

did it not?

- Yeah, it covered
much of the Rockies.

As you know, in Colorado,

there’s lots of
glacial valleys there.

Glaciers are one of the things

that can carve those
deep, steep-walled valleys

in various places.

- Would it be safe to say
then that what we see today,

not just here, but
all over the world,

is not what Noah saw when
he got off the mountain?

- [John] That’s right.

And so those kinds of things,
those kinds of catastrophes

helped shape, helped sculpt

the mountains that we see today.

(♪)

(♪)

Really nice scenery
up here, isn’t it?

- [Del] It is beautiful.

But it brings to mind
here, as we look at this,

we have a lot of
slanting of these layers.

What’s going on there?
- We do.

You can see the red rocks

and the lighter tan-colored
rocks back there.

You can see they’re
sitting at an angle.

So, these layers used
to be flat lying.

They’re deposited
in a marine setting.

And these are the
same rock layers

that you would’ve seen down
at the Vermillion Cliffs

at the eastern end of
Grand Canyon in Arizona.

So here we are, all the
way up in northern Utah,

and we’re still seeing
the same layers,

but these layers
would’ve had to be flat

over this whole area, all
the way down to Arizona

and all the way up
extending into Wyoming.

And then, if you want
to think about it

as a bubble rising up here,

that’s when those
layers became slanted.

- So we have the layers
here on our right.

Do those layers then
continue and go underneath--

- They do.
- The red layer?

- [John] Those go right
underneath the red layers

that we see out here.

So there’s a whole
thick package of rocks

that have been kind of turned
up on edge right in here.

- So that means all
that we see on the left

used to be here on the right.

- Is that right?
- That’s right. Yeah.

These layers, like
this red layer,

the Moenkopi, used to
extend up and over.

So there’s a lot that’s
been eroded away in here.

And as the Uinta
Mountains pushed up,

these layers would’ve extended

over top of the Uinta Mountains.

And so what we see is just
the remnant that’s left.

And so, as we look
off to the north,

we’re looking out toward
the Green River Basin.

And so, as these
mountains rose up,

it made a high spot

that water couldn’t
run through initially,

and we had a big lake
that formed out there.

And all of this is happening

approximately at the beginning
of the Cenozoic period

around the earth.

- Now, wait a second. You
mentioned the Cenozoic.

What is that? Where does
it fit into all of it?

- Well, geologists look at
the history of the earth

in about four different
times, if you will.

And it doesn’t matter
if you’re a creationist

or an old-earth geologist,

we all recognize about the
same four periods of time.

We think they had
different lengths of time,

the two views differ
from each other.

But the one that’s deepest
is the Precambrian,

and we’ll actually see those

in the core of the
Uinta Mountains.

And then, on top of
the Precambrian, we
have the Paleozoic.

Here’s some of the
Paleozoic rocks,

and we think these would’ve
formed earliest in the Flood.

And then, over here, beginning
with these red rocks,

that’s the beginning
of the Mesozoic.

It means middle life.

So we have Paleozoic, old life;

Mesozoic, middle life.

And then the most recent
period is the Cenozoic,

which means new life.

And as creation geologists,

I think these Paleozoic
and Mesozoic rocks

would’ve formed
during the Flood year.

So we have about a
year’s worth of time

to form all that rock,

and much of that we
can see right in here.

But then, after the Flood,
as this erosion is happening,

where’s the sediment going?

These mountains get lifted up,

and then, the eroded sediment
is going into the big lakes

that are forming out there.

We often talk about a lot
of these sedimentary layers

being made during the Flood.

I think there’s a lot
of sedimentary layers

that are going to be made
after the Flood, as well.

So we can piece together
a whole series of events.

We know that these Paleozoic
layers had to be made first.

Then the Mesozoic
layers had to be made.

The uplift happens.

And then, after the uplift,

we get those lake sediments
out there being laid down.

- Are those lake
sediments then laid down

fairly close to the
end of the Flood, or--

- I think they’re laid down
after the Flood was over.

So there’s a lot of good
reasons why we picture

the Cenozoic as the
end of the Flood,

and we see all these
mountains rising up

in the earliest part
of the Cenozoic.

And so, if you have
mountains rising back up

and not getting eroded
down by floodwaters,

that’s a hint geologically
that the Flood’s over.

- John, if all of those forces
are lifting up the mountains

at a time where all of
those layers are still soft,

then we wouldn’t expect to
see them crumble and break.

Would we see them fold?

Is that what we
saw in the canyon?

- That’s right. So,

we’re going to drive just
a little ways from here

into the core of
the Uinta Mountains,

and we’ll see one
of the limestones

that’s bent and deformed
as this uplift took place.

And that tells us that these
rocks were moving around

while this stuff was still soft,

just shortly after
it was laid down.

(♪)

- [Del] John, I have to admit,
this is pretty impressive.

- [John] So we’re looking
at the brown rock here,

which is the core of
the Uinta Mountains.

And we’re looking at
the tan rock up there,

which is the Madison Limestone.

It’s the same limestone
that we see in Grand Canyon

that we call the Redwall
Limestone there.

The same kind of thing
is happening here

that happened in Carbon
Canyon at the same time.

- So the folding that
we saw in Carbon Canyon,

which doesn’t seem to be
nearly as massive as this,

but it was the same kind
of principle, right?

- Yeah.

So, this entire area
is getting lifted up.

And especially here in
the mountain ranges,

as it gets lifted up,

some of the Precambrian
rocks are going to break.

But they have soft sediments

that are sitting on top of that.

And so, as the
mountains lift up,

the soft Paleozoic
sediments get deformed,

and that’s that big bend that
we’re seeing in the rocks.

- And I mean, it just folds.

It’s apparent to me,
when I’m looking at it,

that this was soft when
all of that happened.

Even in the vertical side here,

we see some bending and folding.

- [John] Right.

- John, also, the
thing that strikes me,

I mean, we saw this layer
in the Grand Canyon.

I don’t know how far away that
is, it’s a long ways away.

- All the way across
the state of Utah.

- [Del] You’re right.

But there are mountains
in between there.

And you couldn’t get
those nice flat layers

if those mountains are there.

So it’s obvious the
layers were laid down,

the mountains were
then pushed up,

and because they were soft,

then they folded
instead of broke,

and were brittle like
we see underneath.

- Yeah, so that’s correct, Del.

All these layers in the
Paleozoic and the Mesozoic rocks

that we’re talking about here,

these had to be laid down

before these mountains
were pushed up

because those are the
layers that are deformed

by the mountains rising.
- Sure. Yeah.

You see these all over
the earth, do you not?

- [John] Yeah, you do.

You see some other
big folds like this

in places like the Alps,

the Appalachian Mountains,
and things like that.

Again, it’s the same argument

that these rocks are bending
because they’re soft.

They haven’t hardened yet.

The hardening takes
place after the bending.

(♪)

One of the things that we
want to help people understand

is how the earth got its shape.

Geologists like to use a
word called geomorphology.

And as a Flood geologist, I
think a lot of that shaping

actually took place
after the Flood was over.

- [Del] Well, we’ve
talked a lot about

the deformation of those layers,

the soft bending, and so forth,

but this is something different.

John, it seems to me that
we’re in the middle of a layer.

What is this?
- We are, Del.

This side used to
connect to that side

and everything in between,

so there’s a lot of rock
that’s been removed in here.

So, let’s start with where the
rock layer itself came from.

I think this layer was
made during Noah’s Flood.

I’ve studied this rock layer
in some detail down in Arizona,

the Coconino Sandstone,

called the Weber up here.

The layer extends all
the way from California

up to the Dakotas.

And so, this used to
be solid across here.

There was no canyon here.

This rock layer went
all the way across.

And my suspicion is

this canyon has been
cut by some catastrophe

in the years after the Flood.

We see this in Grand Canyon,

we saw it at Mount St. Helens,

and we see it here, too,

that you see these
relatively small streams

in relatively large
valleys or large canyons.

Even the biggest river we
have in the United States,

the Mississippi, even though
it’s a mile wide in places,

it sits in a valley that’s
a hundred miles wide.

And we call those
underfit streams,

underfit valleys,
or underfit canyons.

And it means that the
river flowing through them

does not quite match
the immense size

of the valley or the canyon.

My guess is 90% of the canyons
and valleys around the world

are underfit.

And so we think that as
mountains were lifted up,

and as erosion started to
work on those mountains

in the form of flash floods,

in the form of mudflows,

in the form of
glaciation and so on,

a lot of those processes could
work on canyons like this

and enlarge them pretty quickly.

- John, it seems,
at least to me,

to say that all the things
that carved this canyon out

don’t seem to be
happening today.

What’s your take?

- Yeah, and that’s a principle

that I think is pretty true
in geomorphology is that

a landscape goes through major
changes catastrophically,

maybe like one night
at Mount St. Helens,

and then, the landscape
just sits there

until the next catastrophe.

And so it’s not that we don’t
have any catastrophes today,

but I think the number of
catastrophes that we have

is declining

from the large number
of catastrophic events

that we would’ve had as
these mountains lifted up.

- You’ve mentioned
that post-Flood era

that there was a tremendous
amount of precipitation.

- Yeah.

- And so an area like this

that doesn’t really get
a whole lot of rain,

it was a drastically different

climate at that time.
- It was.

Just to the north of here

in Fossil Basin and
Green River Basin,

we’ve looked at the lush
landscape that was there,

the amount of vegetation
that had to grow there,

and the water that was there,

and it’s much different

from the climate that
we have here today.

I think from my
perspective as a geologist,

climate change is the
rule, not the exception.

It’s something
that’s been going on

ever since the Flood was over.

- John, I think most people
would look around here

and say, "This is a
pretty bleak place."

It’s obviously very arid,

and yet you’re telling me that
this is a very special place.

- Yeah, we’re in the
southwest corner of Wyoming.

I spent several years up
here in graduate school.

And so we are standing on,

I know it doesn’t look like
a lake as you look out here,

but we’re standing
on the sediments

that got laid down in a lake

and now have turned into rock.

- Yeah, the lake
we’re talking about

filled up this whole basin,

which is huge.
- Yeah.

And I can actually,
from where I’m standing,

I can see the edge of
the basin over there.

You can see these
white sediments,

and then, those are truncated

by the darker colored
ridge right behind there.

And the rocks in that
darker colored ridge

are actually sitting
up like this.

So that’s the basin edge.

- Is that then part
of the evidence

that you would say that
this is post-Flood,

because all of these
are all very horizontal?

- [John] That’s right.

The layers that we’re
looking at here,

this is the early
part of the Cenozoic,

and that would be right at the
top of the geologic column.

And so we think
that Cenozoic rocks

in many places around the
world, not everywhere,

but most of these
Cenozoic rocks,

we think, are post-Flood rocks.

And so, underneath of us,
underneath of this basin,

those Paleozoic and Mesozoic
rocks are contorted.

But these Cenozoic rocks on top,

these are horizontal
and flat lying.

They’re not contorted at all.

So that means that
the tectonic activity

had pretty much ceased when
this lake basin was filled up.

- [Del] So we have this basin,

it’s filled with water,

and we obviously then
have a lot of life.

When we were in
the museum, we saw,

I don’t know how many
different species

of just fish and all of that,

so this was a flourishing area.

- Yeah. It’s amazing. -
With all kinds of life.

Where did all of
this life come from?

- [John] So, it’s interesting.

We see things like
the bats, the horses,

things like the alligators,
and we know the birds,

all those things, they
were air-breathing animals.

Many of them lived a lot
of their life on the land,

and they would’ve had to be
animals that were on the Ark.

And something happens
that’s different

from the rocks that
we see underneath.

We don’t see many
mammals in those rocks.

And all of a sudden,
we get to these layers,

and believe it or not, Del,

there are more mammal species

known in the rocks of
the Green River Formation

than are currently
living in Wyoming today.

- But that sudden arisal in
the fossil record of mammals

should tell us something.

- Yeah.

The very first
bats that we find,

the very oldest
bats that we find

are right here in this
Green River Formation.

And yet, they have
fully formed wings.

They look like modern bats.

And where in the world
do they come from?

Where are the transitional forms

from the animals that
gave rise to bats

if the evolutionary
model is true?

And so one of the strengths
we have in the creation model

is that we can explain

the sudden appearance
of things like bats,

because we think that those
would’ve been on the Ark.

And they didn’t get
fossilized during the Flood,

as far as we know.

When we first find
the bat fossils,

they’re in places like this

where they have the potential

to become part of the
fossil record here.

- John, this represents
a lot of your life here.

You spent a lot of time working
on your dissertation here.

- I did, I spent
some summers here

collecting fish,
studying the layers.

This place is like home to me.

- [Del] Can you show
me some of the stuff

you were working with?

- [John] We’re in a
commercial quarry here.

It’s a place where they
dig these fish out,

and they sell them.

And I think if we break some
of these layers of rock open,

we’ll find some fish.

- [Del] I’m hoping that happens.

- [John] So what
we’re going to do

is go in right along
a seam right in here,

you can see how this whole
thing is lifting up here.

- That’s a big slab. -
Yeah, it’s a big slab.

And just kind of get your
fingers underneath there.

(rock creaks)

(creaking continues)

(sand shuffling)

And so now what
we’re going to do

is we’re going to take
some of these chisels.

We’re going to split
down through this

going down on the end,
see what we can find.

- Is this what your
research assistants did?

Hold the rock while you...?

- [John] That’s
right. All day long.

(both chuckle)

(hammer clinking)

Look at that, Del.

- Oh yeah, look at that. -
Got at least three fish here.

- Yeah.
- So there’s one there.

One right there.

Another one there,
another one there.

- [Del] Oh my goodness.

- [John] That was a
good break right there.

- [Del] Yeah.

- [John] So these all
look like Knightia,

just a little herring-type fish.

Boy, that one is a really
nice one, right there.

- [Del] Yeah, it is.

- [John] Del, if you look
at the edge right here,

you can see multiple
layers in here.

- [Del] Yeah, I do.

- [John] They’re not very thick,

they’re almost as
thick as playing cards.

And the conventional idea is
that each pair of a layer,

a dark layer and light
layer, lasted a year.

But you look at fish
like this guy down here,

I do not see a single
bone out of place.

The fins are nice and
splayed out right there.

And based on my
fish experiments,

that thing sank down to
the bottom of the lake

and was buried in a calcium
carbonate layer within a day

after it laid down
on the bottom.

And I think that’s the only way

that you can explain
such good preservation.

And not only do we see it there,

but that fish, that
fish, and that fish,

they all have really
exceptional preservation.

And they have to
be buried quickly.

- Yeah, there’s really
just a lot of fine detail

in that fossil there.

So those small tiny layers
that we’re looking at here,

those are not annual layers.

- I don’t see any way that
they could be annual layers

based on how well the--
- Almost daily.

- Yeah, I would think
almost daily layers here.

Something was different about
the water chemistry here

in that it was precipitating

a lot of this
calcium carbonate out

which was covering the fish.

The other thing that’s
really interesting

about this particular outcrop

is there’s several
volcanic ash beds in here.

And so, the volcanoes
that are nearby,

maybe some of the ones
up in Yellowstone,

they would erupt

and the ash would settle
down through the lake.

And here’s this nice
orange layer right here.

That would be one
volcanic ash bed.

Here’s another orange
layer, not as thick,

that would be another one.

Here’s another volcanic
ash right here.

And here’s another ash bed

that’s maybe an inch
and a half thick.

- [Del] Yeah, right.

- [John] These ash
beds actually help us

to tell time in the lake.

- [Del] How’s that?

- If we can trace these ash
beds and confidently know

that they’re the same from place
to place in the lake basin,

for example, we can
look at this thickness

between those two
ash beds right there

and we know that that thickness
of Green River Formation

was laid down at the same time,

whether we’re right
here in this spot

or over at the edge of the lake.

And it happens that we know
these aren’t yearly events

because you can find this ash
bed here, count the layers,

find it at the edge of the lake

and at the edge of the
lake, the thickness is more.

And so--
- Is that more layers?

- More layers at the
edge of the lake.

And it’s because you have
more sediments and whatnot

coming in from the
edge of the lake.

So we know these aren’t
yearly laminations.

We know that--
- That wouldn’t make sense.

- The laminations are not
equal from here to there.

There’s about 30% more layers
at the edge of the lake

than there is in the middle.

And I don’t know exactly

how much time is represented
between those ash beds,

but one thing I do know is
that the time is the same

whether it be weeks,
months, or years.

Between those ash beds, I know
it’s the same amount of time.

So I was able to study the
fish and the decay of the fish

and the preservation of the fish

during the same time
in the lake’s history.

So, I think the take home point

is that the fossil fish
and the other fossils here

show that these sediments
were laid down rapidly.

Yes, it was after the Flood,

but even after the Flood,

we have processes that
produce fast layers.

- John, one of the things
that has really impressed me

is that you’re not content

with just sitting in
an office somewhere,

but you want to be out
here looking at the reality

to understand the
truth and the facts.

I appreciate that about you,

and that you understood
you needed a PhD

to help you do that.

Is that important?

- It is.

At first I thought, maybe,
why do I need a PhD?

Why do I need to learn more?

But the thing was that
I didn’t understand is

how it would
advance my thinking,

and how it would cause
me to think deeper

and consider other
possibilities.

- So would you say
that for a young person

who is considering one of
these scientific areas,

that it would be important,

number one, to get
their doctorate?

And it’s important
for them to understand

there’s a whole lot of
things to be looking at?

- I think, Del,
there’s two things

that are really important
for a young scientist.

Number one is to
become well-trained.

You need to interact not only
with other creation scientists

but you need to interact with
conventional scientists, too.

But the other thing, Del,

is they need to be
grounded well in Scripture.

So they need to understand
a biblical model,

and they need to
take things like this

and put these kinds of
things within the record.

The biblical record

doesn’t tell us everything
we want to know.

It gives us a framework,

and we need the new
generation to come up

and begin to look
deeper into some things.

We don’t know all
the answers here yet.

I would really like
to know how much time

is in between that ash
bed and that ash bed.

And we need some new
scientists out here

that are trained to think well

to work on problems like that.

(♪)

- [Del] One of the things I
noticed about these scientists

was the importance of teamwork.

A key member of their team is
a scientist named Ray Strom.

Ray is a Canadian

who has developed a
special set of skills

working in the oil
and gas industry

for the last four decades.

Although I wasn’t able to
travel up to Calgary myself,

we sent a team to interview
him in his laboratory.

(engine rumbling)

- [Ray] My wife told me one time

she felt sorry for me getting
up early in the morning

and having to come into work.

And I said, "Hold on
a minute. (chuckles)

"I come to work and play."

This is kind of the way
the field of geology is.

Every single sample that
you look at is different.

It has a different
story to tell.

It has different
characteristics.

There’s always something new.

I come to work and play
every day. (chuckles)

So we need to unbox the samples

and get them
prepared for cutting.

Basically what we’re
looking at are rock samples

that have been collected
in the Grand Canyon;

and begin doing the
technical rock analysis

on those samples.

This involves, first of all,
thin section manufacture,

and so this is taking rock
materials down to the thickness

that you can actually
see through them.

And this sample is
very carefully labeled

with an arrow pointing up,

with "top"

and an identifier,

which in this case
is, there it is,

CCF-1, which is Carbon
Canyon Fold number one.

But initially we need to
cut these rocks, dry them,

and get them prepped for
thin section analysis.

All right, this will be noisy.

(machine whirring)

(blade grinding)

Okay, right now

I’m going to put an
orientation mark on this rock

to show what end is up.

That will be
crucial to determine

how the bedding
structure is affected

by how the rock materials
originally were laid down.

That sample is now
ready for drying

in preparation for liquid epoxy
impregnation in this sample.

Many professional geologists

aren’t aware of how
to do this process.

There are only a
handful of people

perhaps in the entire world

who know how to do
this kind of thing,

at least to do it well.

Literally a handful of people.

Okay, the epoxy is used
for stabilizing the sample.

And if you fill up all
the pore space with epoxy,

you wind up first of all
being able to identify

where the porosity is.

And secondly, you stabilize
all the very fine material

found in the pore spaces.

So, this is a high pressure cell

which we use to inject
the liquid epoxy

into the pore spaces
in the sample.

In the morning we
can retrieve it,

the epoxy will be solidified,

and then we can handle
that piece of rock safely

all through the rest of the
next part of the process.

It is important that
we continue this work

and that it succeed
because I believe

there’s a whole side of
scientific investigation

that has been largely ignored.

And one of the aims that I have

is to chase that
particular pathway

and look at data that may be
not necessarily mainstream,

but is very, very interesting
and is significant.

And so that’s my endeavor

in working with
Andrew, for example,

is to see what the data says,

and where there’s
supporting evidence

to make sure that
that’s well documented.

(machine whirring)
(blade grinding)

Okay, what we’re doing now

is taking the epoxy away
from the bottom surface

and we’re exposing the rock

that’s been impregnated
with blue dyed epoxy.

And so, what that
does is allow us

to get a nice flat,
optically planar surface.

And in this case, it’s
extremely important

we’re not mistaking
scratches for fractures.

So, we don’t want to leave
scratches in the rock surface.

We want to make sure that
all the scratches are out

so that the fractures
can be easily identified.

Okay, so we’re going to move
on to the staining process

and then it will be ready
for mounting to glass.

We don’t want to induce
any kind of fracturing

into the sample,

and so mounting this to glass

using the cyanoacrylate
glue, Krazy Glue,

ensures that we have
a good stable surface

with which to work.

Imagine trying to work
with a single piece of hair

and trying to grind it

without affecting the
character of the hair.

We want to make sure
that we don’t disturb

the mineralogy of the sample

as we go through the cutting
and grinding processes.

(blade grinding)

This slide we will now
take to our grinding laps

where we’ll thin it down to
about 30 micron thickness.

And this is where the
art comes into play.

Do just a quick look
in the microscope here,

and it looks like we’re pretty
well at 30 micron thickness

all the way across the
entire thin section.

We have the grains seen
as being very clear.

The material showing up
as blue is empty space.

And the cross-polarized light

is showing either as a gray

or as a pale straw yellow,

and that tells us

that we’re right on the
30 micron thickness.

Back in the day when
we were really busy,

we would do anywhere
between 80 to 100

of these types of samples a day.

Personally, I’ve probably done

in the order of about
20,000, I guess.

Now we’ll take the slide

and look at it under the
good petrographic microscope,

which is a special
kind of microscope

made for analyzing
geological thin sections.

(hammer thunks)

And then we move on to more
elaborate testing methodologies

like scanning
electron microscopy.

We’ll take and gold
coat the sample.

Now, the amount of gold that
we’re going to put on it

is very, very small,

almost no value whatsoever,

but it’s necessary for
conducting electrons

along the surface of the sample

in order to get the
image that we want.

It gives you almost
a 3D visual image

of the rock materials
that you’re looking at,

at a very high magnification

which allows us to determine

whether certain features are
found in that particular rock.

The electron beam
runs down the column

and is scanned back and
forth across the sample.

Okay, so we’ve got some
very nice quartz cement

showing up in here.

There’s some more quartz
cement right there.

Got beautiful
quartz overgrowths.

(♪)

Basically, the creation model

provides alternatives
to the explanations

that are in some cases
somewhat deficient.

So looking at the creation
model, for example,

provided almost
a stark contrast.

Even though we were
looking at the same data,

we were quite often
in disagreement

over what the interpretation was

to the data that we
were both looking at.

And I’ve watched this
over my entire career now

as I’ve been involved
in publishing of papers,

presentations at
professional conferences,

and just seeing how
that contrast plays out

in terms of how people
look at the world.

(♪)

(♪)

- [Del] Well, there
was a lot of analysis

that still had to be done
on those thin sections.

But in the meantime,

I wanted to get a
better understanding

of the forces that were involved

that brought about those folds.

And so I called my
friend Steve Austin

and he suggested we go
back to the Grand Canyon,

but not to the bottom,

but we needed to
see it from the air

because the forces are so
large, they’re so huge,

you’ve got to get away,

you’ve got to get higher
in order to see it all.

What a great opportunity
to see all this.

- No better way to see the
country than by helicopter

in overview, it’s just a
tremendous way to see it.

- [Del] Boy, what an
amazing thing this is

to come over this edge.

Wow.

Unbelievable.

Steve, it’s really
the first time

I’ve got this sensation of all
the excavation, so to speak,

in the Grand Canyon.

It makes me begin to imagine

that it was just solid
layers all the way across.

- [Steve] Yeah.

You can imagine the continuity
of strata through here.

- [Del] When you
say the continuity,

you’re talking about the layers

that existed on this
side of the canyon.

They existed on the other
side, but now they’re gone.

You’re looking
for the continuity

between the layer here
and the layer over there.

- [Steve] Yes,

that the strata were
once continuous across

where the canyon is now.

And we’re looking at
the Kaibab Plateau,

it’s a large part of
the Colorado Plateau

that has been arched,

it makes an arch structure
that bends the strata.

We have a name for it.

It’s called the East
Kaibab Monocline.

- So Steve, when we talk
about the monocline,

we’re talking about
something forcing

all of that massive material up.

What are the forces that
are causing that to happen?

- Most creation
geologists that I talk to

suggest it’s the
Pacific Ocean floor

that was shoved under
western North America.

The shoving of the ocean floor

underneath the western
part of North America

caused low density, buoyant
material to be down there.

And then at the end
of the Flood, it rose

just because it was
lighter and less dense.

- That would push
everything above it up.

- It will push the
plateau up higher.

Notice, here comes the arch.

Okay, now look for the
strata and how they’re bent.

- [Del] Oh yeah, I see that.

- [Steve] Okay, so we’re
looking down this flexure

along the East Kaibab Monocline,

a line where there’s been a
lot of bending of the strata.

- [Del] I see it all
the way up there.

- And the strata are horizontal,

and, all of a sudden,
they go vertical.

- [Del] Yes.

- [Steve] Notice it looks like
soft sediment deformation.

You could see the strata
as they’re horizontal

and, all of a sudden,
they turn 90 degrees.

Isn’t that amazing?

- And they’re not crumbled.

They’re folded like soft taffy.

- [Steve] Now, as we come
over the top of this,

we’re going to see
Carbon Canyon down there.

- [Del] Yes.

- [Steve] So the monocline

forms this soft
sediment fold structure.

- And everywhere we
see that monocline,

we see the bending
rather than the breaking.

Is that correct?
- Yes.

It’s extraordinary,

but this is normal
Colorado Plateau monocline,

okay.

So, the rock was not
hard when it was flexed.

It was soft.

But there may be some
other faulting in here.

It may behave
brittly afterwards.

- If we find it
where it’s broken,

then that would indicate those
layers had already hardened.

- Yeah.

We’re seeing the sequence of
sedimentation and tectonics

very closely associated in time,

not separated by hundreds
of millions of years.

In other words, tectonics and
sedimentation occur together,

not separated by geologic ages.

- And when you say tectonics,

you’re talking about
the movement that--

- Uplifts the plateaus.
- Uplifts the mountains

and the plateaus
and all of that.

And so, if the sedimentary
layers are soft

while that is happening,

then we’ll get those
bends and folds.

- Yes.
- That makes sense to me.

Well, I have to at least comment
on the beauty of all of this.

- [Steve] Yes.

Notice again the
difference in elevation.

- [Del] Yes.

- [Steve] We’re flying below

the elevation of
Kaibab Limestone

on the north rim of Grand Canyon

on the right side of us here.

- But it’s way
below us over here.

- And it’s way below
us on the left.

It drops in
elevation, along what?

That monocline.

It forms the barrier,
the arch structure here.

That’s ultimately why
we have the lake basin

that was able to fill

and then spill through
the Kaibab Upwarp,

I believe, to form
the Grand Canyon.

I can see the scum
on the surface there.

That’s the tufa deposit

and that’s the bathtub ring

of the big lake that was
filled in this basin.

Can you imagine a
lake in this basin

up at 6,100 feet elevation,

making that bathtub
ring deposit?

- [Del] So all of
this in front of us,

this was all covered
with that lake?

- [Steve] We call it Hopi Lake.

- [Del] And it comes up
to a natural dam up here

at this point you’re
talking about?

And that’s where at some point,

for some reason, it breached.

It just gave way, or maybe
an earthquake or something?

- Just overtopping of
a natural earth dam

can create spillway erosion.

And there’s no such
thing as slow failure

of a natural dam in spillover.

When spillover erosion
occurs on a natural dam,

it erodes rapidly.

- Where do you think
this is occurring

in terms of the Flood?

- I like to think
of it as post-Flood.

The rock is already hardened.

The monocline has
already been flexed.

The upwarp has occurred,

the rocks are hardened,

and then the overtopping

and spillway erosion
of the solid rock.

- So this could be
a hundred years.

- Hundreds of years
after the Flood possibly.

- How many different lakes
are we talking about?

- [Steve] There may be three
or four different lakes

associated with the
Grand Canyon itself.

So above Lees Ferry in
the Lake Powell area,

Kaiparowits Plateau.

Behind that another lake,
that could fail.

And my view is the lakes
failed from the top down.

The spillover of this Hopi
Lake over the Kaibab Upwarp

into the next basin
below it created what?

Another lake below it,

and that would be Toroweap Lake.

The drainage basins
upstream filled first

and they spilled,

destroyed their dams
by spillway erosion

and they drained to the west.

And you created the Grand Canyon

by top down failing of
dams into lowland areas.

So, the erosion is
channeled to form a canyon

and it’s a straight canyon.

But yeah, it’s channelized
and that is what we see.

So we see erosion in channels
by spillover it looks like.

And so the lake didn’t take
millions of years to drain.

It didn’t take millions of years

for the Colorado River to
erode the Grand Canyon.

- [Del] Really, Steve,
I can look around

and at least imagine, envision,

this wasn’t carved
out by a river.

This is the kind of
thing that you see

when massive water just floods

and it just evacuates
all of that material.

- And thinking
about breached dams

and the notching of the
plateau by spillover,

that is the latest
geologic rage in thinking.

The old way of thinking
about Grand Canyon is,

"Oh, it was eroded over
millions of years."

No.

That’s becoming unpopular
among geologists.

In fact, as I talk
to geologists,

very few geologists are
defending that way of thinking.

They are going to something
freaky and catastrophic,

like overtopping of lakes.
- Right.

- There’s an ice
age lake in Montana

that failed through an ice
dam across eastern Washington

into the Columbia River Basin.

A huge failure there.

- So Steve, let me step
back here for a second

and talk about
these lakes again.

There’s a massive
amount of water

represented in what
we’re looking at here.

Is that caused from the
huge amount of precipitation

that was occurring as a
result of the warm oceans,

or is there some other
source for all of that water?

- Well, I like a warm ocean
at the end of the Flood.

You can have a rainy period

for hundreds of years
after the Flood.

We could fill these
basins with rain water,

and then they spill and
overtop the landscape.

And wouldn’t that be a
great place to survive

after the global Flood,

next to a nice big lake

with lots of water and
well-irrigated landscape?

- Until it breached.

- Until it breached; yeah, okay.

And then today it’s rather arid.

Isn’t it?
- Yes.

If you had lakefront
property here,

it all went away quickly.

- Yeah, there could
be palm trees.

There’s evidence here of camels,

of geese, shore
birds on the lake.

There’s evidence of pike minnow.

The bathtub ring right there

next to where the
failure point is,

that’s icing on the cake.

That makes it real to me

that the edge of the
lake was up there

next to the breach point.

So what we see
makes a strong case

for some kind of
catastrophic deposition

of the strata of
the Grand Canyon,

a giant global
Flood, if you will.

The very quick bending and
upheaval of the strata,

forming the Kaibab Plateau.

And then the post-Flood period,

the spillover erosion
of the plateau.

In other words, we have
the pieces of the puzzle

that seem to
assemble themselves,

so we have an explanation.

It’s a hypothesis with
extreme explanatory power,

and it’s consistent with
the framework of the Bible.

(♪)

- [Del] A lot of
us don’t realize

the amount of time and effort
that it takes for a scientist,

once they have done all the
field work and all the lab work,

to bring everything together.

They now need to write it up.

They need to put it in a form

in which the general
scientific community

can look at it and review it.

(♪)

So, I had the opportunity
to go back to Cedarville

and sit down with Andrew and
John to discuss their findings.

We talked not only about
what they had found,

but also about the
implications of their research.

- [Andrew] It’s paper thin.

- Are these all the
slides that Ray sent?

- Yes, he sent them to
us in boxes like this,

and you can see
what they look like.

They’re just--

But of course these
were hand delivered.

He came down at a meeting
that John was attending

and hand delivered them.

You wouldn’t trust these
to the postal service.

- [John] You don’t send
them through the mail.

- I can understand that.

- [Andrew] Then John came
and delivered them to me.

- [Del] So is this what you
have then under the microscope?

- Yep.
- Yes.

- [Del] How long have
you been studying these?

- Well, I’ve
literally spent months

going screen by
screen by screen,

moving the stage
backwards and forwards,

systematically going
through each slide,

taking photos,
recording details.

- Hundreds and hundreds of
hours under the microscope.

- And I’ve got thousands of
photographs at different points.

Every time I took notes,
I took a photograph

so I could go back to that.

- So after these
months and months

of looking at these thin slides,

what did you find?

- Well, I put this on
the screen deliberately

because this is a sample

that comes from
right in the bend

of that major fold in
the Tapeats Sandstone.

And so, it’s a good test case

because if there ever
was going to be a sample

that was going to
show the mechanical

or the metamorphic effects

from slow, gradual heat
and pressure changes

and moving around, it
would be this sample.

So, let me walk you through it.

First of all, you can
see those white grains.

The really white ones.

That’s the mineral quartz,
which is window glass.

We can see some of these
spaces are still there.

This is the blue
highlighting these spaces.

Well, in this instance,
what happened,

more quartz grew,

and you can see how it’s joined
these two grains together.

And you can see that
little sharp point there.

Quartz cement has
grown into that space.

So what happens is
when it’s deposited,

there’s water in between
those sand grains,

but the water has
chemicals dissolved in it.

And so when the water dries out,

those chemicals precipitate

and fill in all the spaces
between the sand grains

and harden it,
making it a cement.

- So that cement is like glue.

It holds the grains together.

So, sand in a sandbox
would be really loose,

but if you put
some glue in there,

or what geologists call cement,

that’s what holds the rock
together and makes it hard.

- What does it tell
you when you see that?

- Well, it’s in
pristine condition.

It hasn’t changed.

This is in the
hinge of that fold.

You’d expect when
the folding occurred,

millions of years
later supposedly,

that cement should
have been disrupted.

It should have been crushed.

And maybe it would
have to regrow again,

but you’d still see
fracturing that was healed.

But you don’t see
that in any of this.

You still see the
original pores.

- It tells us that
the cement was added

after the rocks were bent.

- Oh, so we were talking earlier

about breaking and crumbling
of a very hard rock

from a larger standpoint.

Now what you’re
talking about is,

as you look at the small pieces,

you also would find crumbling.

- Yes.
- But you don’t see that.

- No; that’s right.

You can see where grains
have been compressed

close to one another,

and you can still see
the original outlines.

Here’s some more
cement over here

that’s joined that
grain to this grain.

- So let me ask
this question then.

Is the cement formed
after it was bent?

Not before?
- That’s right.

- [Del] Now, you
also took samples

a long way away from that fold,

and you wanted to look at those

and compare those
to in the fold.

We haven’t seen one of those.

Do you have a slide of that?
- Yeah, I’ve got one.

- Okay.
- I’ve got one right here.

And it has exactly
the same features.

We’re going to have
to adjust this again.

Let’s get it back into focus.

’Cause we can move it around.

Okay.

You can see there, again,
you’ve got the same.

You’ve got the blue spaces.

Look at all the
different size grains

of the white ones of quartz.

You’ve got feldspar.

You’ve even got some
rock fragments there.

So, it doesn’t
look any different.

- So let me put you on
the spot here, Andrew.

If I were to mix up a slide
from the fold and a slide,

how far away?

Was it a--

- This one here, that was
above Little Colorado River.

So as the crow flies,
five to six miles.

- Okay, so if I were
to switch those up

and put them under the
microscope and say,

"Andrew, is this from the fold

"or is this from
five miles away?"

Could you tell?

- I couldn’t tell because
there’s no radical difference.

-[Del] That tells you
something. -[Andrew] They’re
essentially the same.

And that was the whole point
of taking those samples

to be a control.

The fact that we
find them the same,

every sample of the sandstone
has exactly the same features,

is quite telling.

It means they folded
before they hardened.

- Well, let’s go back to
the conventional paradigm

that would say that
the folding took place

as a result of a
metamorphosis in the rocks.

What would this look like
if that had occurred?

Would it look
different, and why?

- There would be a whole
set of different features

that are not present here.

- Metamorphic rocks
under the microscope

look distinctly
different from this.

Here’s a slide that
might even look closer.

When you take a sandstone,

which is the type of rock
that we found in that fold,

and you put a sandstone under
metamorphic heat and pressure,

it’s going to look
something like this.

This rock is called a quartzite.

The dominant mineral here
is going to be quartz.

And one of the things
you notice right away

is that there’s not
any blue in there.

And that means that all
the cement has grown

in between the grains.

You can still see some
of the grains in there.

I think, Andrew, if you put it
under cross-polarized light,

the grains show up even better.

- [Andrew] Here’s where we
look at under cross-polars.

- But you can see
how these grains

interlock with one another,

just like pieces of
the jigsaw puzzle.

- This is the puzzle
you were talking about.

- That’s right. - And here’s
the puzzle put together.

- [Andrew] I’ll turn the
light up a little bit more.

You see how you’ve got lots
of these connecting points,

these junction points that
are often three grains

at what we call a triple point.

- So, Del, we think if the
conventional paradigm were true,

that the rock samples
we took out of that fold

would look more like this

than the sample of
sandstone that we looked at.

- Well, to an untrained
eye, I can tell you this.

It is a radically different
picture than what we saw.

So it makes one think the
current paradigm is not correct.

Is that what you’re
assuming here?

- You can see why
it was important

to make the thin sections
and to look at it,

because you can’t see these
effects in a hand specimen.

You’ve got to really
dive into these grains

at this microscopic level.

All geologists do this.

It’s part of the detective work.

You have your
framework of thinking

and you say to yourself,

"Well, if I go and get samples,
what do I expect to find?"

And you set up some
questions to answer

and what you expect to find.

And then you go out and you
do the tests to check whether,

and if you don’t find

what you already predicted
you’re going to find,

you’re going to have
to change how you--

- Change your model.

- Change your model for how
you understand these rocks.

- So what are you now
waiting on from Ray?

- Well, Ray is also
going to talk to us

about the results he got

from using a scanning
electron microscope,

which is going in an even
higher power of magnification.

This is just in two dimensions.

He’s able to look
in three dimensions.

You’ll be able to
see the quartz cement

the way it’s grown
between the quartz grains.

And that’ll tell us

whether there’s been any
mechanical disruption,

or whether the
cement has occurred

as the last stage in
the whole process.

- [Del] Okay.

- There we go.

Hello, Ray. It’s so
good to see you again.

Unfortunately, we’ve
got to do this by Zoom.

I have, in my lab today,
Del Tackett is with us.

- Hey, Ray.
- Andrew Snelling is with us.

- Good to see you again, Ray.

It’s hard to believe
it’s nearly two years

since I was up there
last with you in the lab.

- I know.

I was just looking
at some of the images

that we were doing
while you were up here

and looking at
the dates on them.

And it’s hard to believe.

- So Ray, we want to look
at one of the thin sections

from the tight fold
in Carbon Canyon.

Here’s the thin section.

One of the things that
struck me right away

when looking at
these thin sections

was the amount of
porosity in these rocks;

even at this place where
the bend was really tight,

there’s still a lot of
empty space in there.

And Ray, could we
look at an image

from this very same rock sample,

sample number 10,

and let us know your
observations about what you see

with the scanning
electron microscope?

- So, here we have an example

of a scanning electron
microscopy image.

If you can see my cursor here,

that’s a sand grain right there.

And associated with
that sand grain

are a number of
overgrowths of quartz.

- Ray, when you say overgrowth,
what do you mean by that?

- Okay, this is
actually the cement.

The important thing
to look at here

is that the individual
overgrowths that you see here

have not been disturbed.

Their contacts have
not been disturbed

by any kind of
mechanical deformation.

- So, we’re actually seeing

that the cement
hasn’t been damaged

because you’ve got these
pristine ends of the crystals

as they’ve grown on the
original sand grains.

- So that shows that
the bending took place

and then the rock
became a solid.

- Exactly.

And of course, this is at a
much higher magnification,

so any even subtle deformation

would show up between
these cemented particles.

- So Ray, that sample
was, as you know,

from the Carbon Canyon
Fold in the hinge,

and that was in the Tapeats.

It’s probably going
to be helpful now

if we look at a regional sample.

So that’s TSS-3,

we might want to just
look at that too,

because that’s a long way
away from these folds.

- So, there’s an awful lot to
see in this particular image.

But the overgrowths are
basically two types.

We have beautiful
quartz overgrowths;

but you’ve also got
precipitation of clays,

which lends to,

I guess, what you’d call
the dirty appearance

of this particular rock.

The overgrowths that you
see here are quite pristine,

indicating that they’ve been
growing into open pore space.

I don’t see anything
unusual here.

These rocks haven’t
been dislocated,

haven’t been fractured,

all those sorts of things.

- So, I asked this
earlier of Andrew,

if we were to put several
of these pictures,

if I were to mix them up,

would you be able to tell me

which belongs in the
hinge and which does not?

- No, I couldn’t. (chuckles)

- And it seems to me that
that is, from my perspective,

kind of the summary of this

and what you wanted to
see in the very beginning.

- Well, the sequence
is sedimentation,

folding, then hardening.

- That’s correct.

Now you can help me here,

because it seems to me,

from a very amateur
perspective at this point,

that we’re looking at a
very significant finding.

Anything that begins to
show that a theory is wrong

is a major observation.

I’m almost getting a
little deja vu here.

Back when we were looking
at the soft dinosaur tissue,

we were looking at something

that, from the conventional
paradigm’s perspective,

should not be here, right?

The soft dinosaur tissue
should not be here

because it is millions
and millions of years old.

- [Andrew] There’s
no known mechanism

to preserve it for
millions of years.

- Correct.

And now we’re looking
at a microscopic level

of the grains, and
the cementation,

and all of these things
that we’ve been looking at,

and we’re seeing
from a conventional
paradigm perspective

what shouldn’t be there.

That, to me, is fascinating,

and I’m excited to be here
to share that with you.

- And it blows the mind to
think that we are looking here,

we’ve looked here at
the microscopic level,

but it gives us a narrative

to explain the
building of mountains.

So it’s quite dramatic
because, as you say,

just these observations
under the microscope

help us to put the pieces
of the puzzle together

in the chronology of when
these mountains formed.

It wasn’t hundreds
of millions of years

after the layers were deposited.

It was only months after
the layers were deposited.

And that’s a radical departure

from conventional explanations
of the building of mountains.

- I’m reminded of a
trip that was organized

for the heads
of our international
oil and gas company.

Part of that was a helicopter
trip over Jasper, Alberta.

Well, there are
massive, massive folds

in the Rocky Mountains.

And one of the individuals who
happened to be an engineer,

long time standing with
this particular company,

he later recounted to me,

he said, "I saw all
these folds in the rock.

"I can’t even imagine
how you could think

"that those would’ve been
formed in solid cemented rocks.

"They had to have been soft

"when those big
folds were formed."

So, it’s critical to state

that we’re looking at
scientific evidence.

We’re not imagining this stuff.

We’re actually looking
at scientific evidence

that supports a
particular model,

one of a young earth

and short events that made
the features that we observe.

- [Del] Ray makes
an important point.

There really is
a lot of evidence

that supports the
creation model.

But we’ve only been able
to show you a brief summary

of just one research project.

Even in this documentary,

there were many conversations
we had to leave out,

details we couldn’t include,

scientific evidence that
took too long to explain.

But my hope is that you
have a new appreciation

for how creation
science actually works.

I also hope this
film reminds you

that Genesis is the
best explanation

for everything we see
in the world around us.

I was fortunate enough
to meet up with Andrew

one more time at my
home in Colorado,

where I spend every day

under the shadow of
an enormous mountain.

So Andrew, looking back at
all that we’ve talked about

and all that we’ve looked at,

you’re still in the process
of this whole research, right?

How many papers have
you already published?

- Two have already
been published.

A third is in the process
of being published.

And there’s four more to come.

And so, those papers
are long and detailed

with all the
microscope photographs

and all the descriptions
of the rocks,

because it’s reporting
all the observational data

that anyone can go
and look at and read.

- I guess the question is,

how is the world going
to respond to that?

- So if they were to admit
that my evidence indicates

there was a catastrophic
global Flood

with a short period of time
of catastrophic processes,

a humongous amount of energy,

and earth movements to
raise up these mountains,

they’re going to have to
forget their millions of years.

So they’re going
to have to reject

their own interpretive
framework.

So, they’re either going
to ignore the research,

which is what they commonly do,

or attack the scientist.

- And yet you still go on,

you still proceed in this work.

- Absolutely, because
it’s part of our worship.

As we’ve been given dominion
over the earth by God,

we’ve been given brains to use,

He expects us to use them;

it’s an act of worship to Him.

And of course, we’ve got
a lot more work to do.

I mean, what about the animals?

What were they
doing at this time?

What about the people that
were descended from Noah?

There’s lots of questions
that we’ve yet to answer

to link from the time
that Noah got off the Ark,

with the rise of the mountains,

into the civilizations that
everyone is familiar with.

So we’ve got a lot
of work ahead of us

to get a fully
integrated package

of explaining the world
around us as it is today.

- So that brings me back again

to some things that we’ve
talked about before.

We talked about them earlier
in the previous film.

And that is the whole notion
of creation scientists,

and the processes that a
creation scientist goes through.

And that has all been exampled
for us in this project.

- Well, anyone can
collect rock samples,

anyone can do
laboratory analysis,

but they’re just numbers.

They’re just
observations of minerals.

You’ve got to be
able to put that

within an interpretive
framework.

And I start with the
interpretive framework

that Genesis is literal history,

that God has given us that
written account of history,

and it describes
the Genesis Flood.

And so then I start
to look at the data,

the observational data
within that framework.

And so, that’s what
creation scientists do.

We ask questions, and
then we do the research

to see if we can answer
those questions.

But all within the interpretive
framework of Genesis.

- Andrew, there are still
a lot of questions then

that are left unanswered.

Where do you see
creation science going

from this point forward?

- Well, actually,
I’m quite excited

because we see another
generation being raised up

to which we can
hand on the torch.

And my research,

and others who are doing
research like this,

is setting examples for
the younger generation.

We want to equip them

and challenge them
with the things

that have yet to be answered,

to take up the questions,
and run with it,

and do the necessary research.

So I’m quite excited
about what God can do

with young people
in the years ahead.

(♪)