Original subtitles

This programme contains strong language from the start

and descriptions of violence that some viewers may find distressing

All right, me old son? All right, Dad?

I can't hear you very well, you know.

Oh, yeah. Oh. Hold on.

What are the screws like that are there with you now? Are they nice?

Yeah, there's two in here.

One's just gone out to make me a cup of tea. Oh, nice. Happy days.

Got your own waiter service, haven't you?

Hey, do you realise we're only about five or six weeks away

from the court case in the High Court?

What the parole board have gotta understand is

I'm nearly 70.

I'm anti-crime, anti-violent. Fuck me,

I've only got to grow a pair of wings and I'm laughing, ain't I?

Nothing I do naughty.

I've gotta be given that opportunity to go out there

and live my life decent,

respectful, and earn my living and enjoy what's left.

Here are some of the suggestions.

Victims and the press will be able to attend parole board hearings

for the first time.

Also, the parole board possibly granted greater powers,

such as being able to compel witnesses

and whether it should operate more like a tribunal

in a courtroom setting.

Since the last meeting with Charlie, the law was finally changed

to enable us to apply for a public parole hearing. We did that,

and we're still waiting to hear at the moment.

Everybody recognises that there's been no risk-related behaviour

for a very significant period.

There has to come a point where the system recognises that progress.

I went to visit Charlie one day and I said, I've been to see

this crime museum down south near Brighton.

And he goes, "You should open one of them."

I thought, "Not a bad idea." So I opened a crime museum.

As I went through the security gates, I could hear someone singing,

# Please release me, let me go. #

I've gone out and Charlie is stood on his hands upside down,

doing 100 press-ups in mid-air, singing this song.

How long did it take him to tell you, "I think I'm your daddy"?

At the end of the visit he'd taken two hairs which he pulled out

of his moustache, and he put them in a napkin

and he said, "I want you to get them tested for DNA."

And I said, "Why would I wanna get them tested for DNA?"

And he said, "Because I think I might be your dad."

And that was the very first inclination I had.

That was it. And the DNA test is pretty conclusive.

Yeah, we've had two DNA tests done.

I get people messaging me all the time saying,

"You're full of shit. You're not Charles Bronson's son.

"You're a liar. You just want to make money out of him."

People are entitled to their opinions.

You know, me and Charlie have got our relationship,

and it's nothing to do with anyone else, to be quite honest.

When I was brought up, never knew who me dad was,

never, ever met me Dad. Presumed me dad was dead.

Agreeing to reveal some of the dark arts of this world

is one of the paparazzi's most controversial figures,

photographer George Bamby.

I don't just take pictures... Give us a smile! Oh, BLEEP!

..I make stories.

Now drop it. Drop it.

They might not always be true.

I've seen you on telly. I've actually seen you half a dozen times

on telly before we met up. I knew you was my lad.

We got the nose. We have. Same jawline.

Same... And there's... There's a lot of muppets out there

that have stuck their nose in our personal domestic business.

The should be a-fucking-shamed of themselves.

You know your mother? Yeah.

I ain't got a lot of time for her. I never did have.

She was two cans short of a six pack.

She really was.

But I love her

for giving birth to my son.

Why did you two split up, then?

Well, I was married, weren't I?

I was married to Irene.

Your mum, she used to come up to Ellesmere Port,

and I used to see her at the Waverly Club,

and I used to go to Manchester and see her in clubs and pubs there.

And I never loved her

because she was a lunatic.

But the truth is, I believe

everything happens for a reason.

Everything. Right? Yeah.

And at this moment of time,

me and you are solid as a rock, mate.

I spend hours and hours doing stuff for Charlie.

I spend probably an hour a day with him on the phone, talking to him.

Sometimes when we're abroad, he'll ring up and he'll be like,

"Right, where are you? What are you doing?

"Have you got suntan lotion?

"What's it feel like when you put suntan lotion on?

"When are you having you dinner? What are you having for dinner? What...? What's the food like?"

Every little detail of what ever you're doing,

he wants to know every single miniature detail

because he's not used to anything like that.

So it's all massively new for him.

Even when we're eating dinner, he'll say,

"Just touch the... the cutlery on the plate.

"Let me listen to that." And he's like, "Oh, my God."

And then, "Describe your roast dinner." So we say, you know,

"There's lovely carrots, minted peas, new potatoes..."

He said, "Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

"Have you got butter on the new potatoes?" Yes, we've got...

"Is it Lurpak?" Yes, it's Lurpak. "Oh, my God."

There's no evidence that any police have ever searched here.

Nor, it seems...

He's an enigma. He loves the attention.

You know, one of the worst things for him would be if none of us

wrote about him or talked about him.

I think he might find that very difficult.

I think he... He doesn't want to be forgotten.

He's known as Britain's most dangerous prisoner.

There was a glimpse of the violent side of Charles Bronson

at this unlicensed boxing match.

Charles Bronson got seven years for armed robbery in 1974,

but a series of violent outbursts in prison has kept him locked up

almost ever since.

In the last episode, he took a hostage for two days,

prison art teacher Phil Danielson.

It earned Bronson a life sentence.

He's an instantly recognisable figure. I think largely because

of that title that he was given in the tabloid press -

Britain's Worst Prisoner.

Britain's Most Violent Prisoner is probably the most common.

And I was guilty of giving him that title in the early days as well.

He clearly is of interest,

particularly to newspaper readers.

You know, I suppose it's self perpetuating.

You know, one story leads to another.

The Sun will do a story about him.

The Mirror will do another story.

I did try to get in here to see Charles Bronson

and he would have been happy to meet me.

But his visitor list is severely restricted.

But he did send me this drawing.

He's unique. He's also a self publicist.

In some of his books,

he's glorified the violence

and almost revelled in some of the attacks he's launched.

He talks and describes these attacks with a lot of relish,

which clearly do not do him any good when it comes to parole hearings.

My dad has manipulated the system for a lot of years. He's great at

getting his stories out. He's great at getting stuff in the papers.

He's great and getting stuff on the telly. Teamed up with me,

we're an absolute fucking knockout.

We've sold stories.

We've even made stories up just for a laugh,

just to keep him entertained.

95% of it is just complete bollocks that we've just sat there on a visit

and had a fucking laugh about and thought,

"Should we fucking do that?" I mean, there was a story I did once...

He goes, "Get me on the front page this Sunday." I'm like, "Right, OK."

So I'm in the car driving home and I'm like, "What the fuck am I gonna to do here?

"Right. How do you fancy having a baby?"

"A fucking baby?! What do I want a baby for?!" I went,

"Well, you don't want a baby, really, but just say you want a baby."

"Oh, right, I see what you mean."

So he goes, "Right, I'll ring you back in five minutes."

He rings me back and he goes, "Right. Hello, son. How are you?"

"I'm all right, Dad, yeah." "Right. I want a fucking baby."

Send the tape off to the papers. Front page -

"Bronson: I want a baby."

Then he rings me up on Sunday. "Fucking brilliant."

It's just a big fucking farce, innit? But it keeps him entertained.

But caught in all sorts of media attention,

he's not necessarily always helping his case, but this is why

the public parole hearing is so important,

because it will actually enable the full argument to be presented

and members of the public can make their own mind up.

Make no bones about it, Charlie likes being on the telly.

He likes being in the papers. I mean, he loves himself.

If he was made of chocolate, he'd fucking eat himself.

But it is what it is.

Oh! My little baby.

Hey?

Gonna go for a walk later? Walkies! Come on.

Good girl. Good girl. Good girl.

He's got quite a few girlfriends and quite a lot of the time

I find myself on occasion

posting out little toys for some of his girlfriends.

In fact, I've got one at the moment

where he sent me the name and address of some young lady...

Well, not young lady, she's about 40-odd, that he's been talking to for a while.

And, yeah, he really likes her

and he wants me to post something out to her, so.

He likes to please his girlfriends, and that's the only way he can...

He sends them gifts of certain things.

Flowers, sometimes. Sometimes it's boxed up, whatever.

So he says, "Just send her a little note saying

"'I'll be out in a few months.

"'While I'm still in here,

"'Here's something to keep you occupied.'"

It's a vibrator.

Don't know how it works or what I've bought, that's it.

I've got no idea what goes on with the postman here, or Amazon,

but on my record list, I think I bought about 12 vibrators

in the last 12 months. So that's another one

that's going to be posted out very shortly.

it's not too late to, you know, maybe get married again or whatever.

But I just want to... You've been married more fucking times

than Joan Collins, you have. Yeah, but I like wedding cake, don't I?

I ain't getting married for fucking wedding cake, mate.

Right, this is my dad's wedding outfit,

and this is the exact outfit that he wore at Wakefield prison.

And after the wedding, he gave me the wedding outfit

cos he wanted to put it into the crime museum for people to see.

And alongside Paula, who was his wife,

that's Paula's wedding outfit.

It's great for the tabloids, innit?

"UK's most notorious violent prisoner, Charles Bronson,

"marries some gorgeous bird 25, 30 years his junior.

"Massive pair of knockers, great personality, long hair, big eyes

"that's had a couple of little bit parts on Coronation Street."

Just classic for the papers, innit, and the magazines.

When I met me dad, I was very heavily involved with the media

and I had a lot of power with, like, front page stories.

Paula latched onto me.

She wanted to be in the limelight.

And then I found myself becoming, like, a PR agent with Paula.

Before I knew it, I'm sat in the studios,

Loose Women, Lorraine, this, that and the other.

We all love a bad boy.

We do love a bad boy. This boy, you know what I mean?

There's bad boys and there's bad boys.

And I'm going to the bad boy one. We mustn't minimise...

No, I know. I know, I know. I get that.

She wanted publicity for Charlie and for herself.

I shall be the first to admit that.

I'm in the middle of one of the biggest media storms in the country

and I'm like, "Fucking great. I can make loads of money."

He can't speak for himself. He has to rely on other people to do that.

And, you know... So are you being used perhaps?

Definitely not. Definitely not.

Do you think he deserves to speak for himself?

People want to hear about him. That's why he gets headlines,

that's why he gets the media attention that he does.

People are fascinated by him.

We're a pretty lethal combination, to be honest.

I think Charlie knew that as well.

No, Charlie's not daft, you know, he can be quite manipulative.

So can I. So could Paula.

And so can the media.

London!

I'm gonna marry Charlie Salvador!

Woohoo! Get in!

Everybody's using everybody.

Everybody does use everyone in the media. And it'll never stop.

Paula wanted a documentary making about her wedding.

She was very insistent on it.

So I got a friend of mine with a camera and, you know,

just filmed it, sort of thing.

Oh, my God.

You were heavily involved in the wedding planning as well,

weren't you? Didn't have much choice,

me old man told me, "Get me wedding organised.

"I'm getting married on such a date. Crack on."

Keep it covered...

# Fame

# Makes a man take things over

# Fame... #

Watch you don't trip, darling.

Yeah, yeah. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Give us that bloody pint.

He wanted the biggest wedding in the world. He wanted dwarfs.

He wanted God knows what else.

And then a lookalike dancing around with Paula.

I mean, it was just a fucking joke, to be honest.

That's what he wanted on his wedding day, that's what he got.

So just give them 30 seconds on their own then you can all join in.

Paula, do some poses.

# Call my name

# And it feels like

# Home... #

How do you feel now you got married? Really, really bloody happy.

Is it what you thought it would be? Are you excited. Yeah,

yeah, I'm really happy now. So what was Charlie like when you went in?

Did he cry?

He welled up a little. Oh, did he? He got a little bit choked.

See, that shows he's got emotions, don't it, you know what I mean?

Who'd have thought it, eh? I know, exactly.

When they got married, he said, "She's got to go on the honeymoon, she's gotta have a honeymoon.

"She needs to go on the honeymoon. You need to go with her. You've gotta take some pictures."

So I ended up taking us to Malta on honeymoon.

And he said, "Right, you've got to make me one promise.

"I want a picture of me and Paula on the beach in the papers."

This was the only thing that I could come up with at the time,

which was a book of me dad's with Paula sitting on the beach

with her legs akimbo.

And the reason I did that was to give my dad a bit of a chuckle

in prison because I thought, "He'll see that, he'll love that."

This is what I call Salvador Central.

It's a bloody mess at the moment, but basically I get...

Like, today, this is all the stuff that I've got off Charlie

through the post off him today.

My life is-is-is...being taken over by being with Charlie,

which isn't a bad thing because I'm campaigning for him,

but I didn't anticipate the degree.

This is all legal stuff.

Charlie merchandise stuff down here.

It looks insane. But it's... There's a method in the madness.

Paula was basically his manager.

Charlie's Charlie, you're not going to change Charlie.

You know, he's always had people on the outside, you know,

doing a little bit of business for him, sort of basically

being his middleman to the world, really.

I'm not happy. What's going on?

See that photo in the fucking paper,

it's like you've just ate a fucking horse. It's upset me.

You've put on about four fucking stone.

I can't believe that fucking photo.

You're not doing this, she can't be.

You got to explain to me what the fuck's going on.

Fucking shocked me, that.

When Charlie makes a decision, he makes a decision.

If he says, "Right, that's it, you're not visiting me again,

"You're not talking to me again," that's it.

He just cuts people off like that. He's done it with me.

After less than a year of marriage,

Charles has written to Paula saying he wants a divorce

after these pictures of Paula were leaked to the papers.

He said that I humiliated him.

He's a man of great pride and I've humiliated him. And I have.

I was sat at home watching that interview.

It was awful to see

cos it just showed how vulnerable she was

and how mixed up and confused she was.

So this is his official statement.

"Paula has disrespected me, my mum and most of all herself.

"I can't accept that kind of behaviour from somebody

"who's supposed to be my wife..." I don't...

"She also has a drink and prescription drug problem,

"which makes her do crazy things.

"I can't be involved with somebody like that. She needs to get help.

"I'll miss her, but she needs to sort herself out

"or she will be dead in two years."

I knew there was always going to be a danger of her doing some harm

to herself or doing something.

And.... And it was scary.

She used to ring me up and go, "I'll be dead tomorrow."

And then one day I locked on me phone and it was a message

off somebody that said, "Is it true?"

I mean, Paula was just fodder.

Unfortunately, that's what Paula was.

She was just press fodder.

Do you think she felt exploited? She was exploited to the max,

really. I kept telling her she had a very short shelf life,

unfortunately, you know,

as far as the media goes, she paid the ultimate price.

She was a lost soul, but she was a lovely person.

She had a heart of gold. And I'll tell you something,

she lived every day as if it was her last one.

And she gave a lot of people a lot of love and a lot of joy in a life.

But...it is what it is, innit?

When Paula come into my life,

it was like a light going on.

It was beautiful.

And I thought the world of Paula, I really did.

And we had some beautiful plans.

And now she's gone.

I'll always love her.

The reason why Bronson or any other prisoner is in prison

is because they've committed serious offences that have harmed people.

And a consequence of that

is in, what's admittedly a difficult environment,

he now has to show that he's safe to be released.

The decision is simply about - are you likely to reoffend?

So, actually, you don't have to be a nice person to be released,

you have to be a safe person to be released.

It takes me three days to actually visit my dad.

A day's travel, a day doing the visit and a day's travel home again.

But, hopefully, won't be happening for too much longer.

He might be getting out, and if he does, be absolutely amazing.

This morning we're gonna have a meeting in front of, like,

the wing governor, the prison governors, the psychologists,

you know, all the people that are part of the process.

They discuss how his behaviour has been, how things are going on,

you know, what he's been up to.

And by talking to these people and communicating with them,

hopefully we can work together and find out what we need to do

to get him the best chance of getting parole.

INDISTINCT SAT NAV INSTRUCTIONS

They have come back and they've down categorised him

to medium risk to staff members in the prison.

He's never, ever been categorised that low.

That was just such a brilliant victory for us today. For parole,

it's a massive step forward.

The medium risk of serious harm assessment

is absolutely monumental and significant. When the parole people

look at it, the first thing they're going to see is,

"This man is medium risk to staff at the prison,"

which goes really well with what we're trying to show them,

that he's not a risk when he gets outside.

Long Lartin Prison near Evesham.

It takes long-term prisoners.

Here, the stress is on security, not rehabilitation.

I didn't wanna come back to prison.

Now, me old dad picked me up outside Gartree Prison

in Leicestershire.

And I was released as a Category A prisoner.

So I wasn't given any form of rehabilitation whatsoever.

Such as, I had no home leave,

no parole, no nothing.

Now, on the way home,

me dad pulled into the cafe on the motorway,

and I wasn't properly ready for mixing with people.

Now, I went to the toilet and there was about seven or eight

people in the toilet.

Geezers.

Now, I was convinced that them people in that toilet

was waiting for me.

Paranoia?

Well, I don't know about paranoid then, but I felt

that they was waiting for me.

Put it in a nutshell -

I was ill prepared to go out.

I wasn't... I wasn't ready for the people, you know.

And I lasted ten weeks and I'm back in again.

The parole board are obviously going to want to see evidence

that Charles has changed, that his risk has diminished.

You can see from that time that his violent behaviour

really started to peter off, became less frequent and less severe.

And so I think credit where credit is due to him - he's done an awful

lot of the rehabilitative work himself.

He's worked hard on himself in the privacy and the confines

of his cell.

People talk about treatment.

It's not like a medical treatment.

It doesn't have that degree of certainty.

So some of these things help people control their emotions

and change their behaviour a bit.

For me, I think the most important thing is how any Bronson

or any other prisoner -

well, how are they now reacting when things happen

that might make them angry?

"Armed robber Bronson was reportedly tackled to the ground by 12 prison

"guards after stripping off and buttering up."

Well, that's a big deal. OK, what happens when you get angry?

How do you deal with that when you have disappointments

and setbacks?

We will be saying and talking to him about, what does that tell us,

do you think, Mr Bronson, about your future behaviour

and what are you going to do next time someone annoys

you or you have a falling out with somebody?

How are you going to resolve that?

But for any prisoner, if what there was is evidence

of violent behaviour following the prisoner losing his temper

relatively close to his parole hearing, then that would clearly

count against him.

Well, this was the last period of real instability that we've seen,

and that was five years ago.

There is documented research that tells us that, the older somebody

is when they are released from prison, the less likely

they are to engage in violent behaviour.

And in actual fact, the research shows that, from the age of 70,

violent recidivism actually drops off to nil.

Now, Charlie might be the exception to that rule.

Anybody reading about Charlie's history is going to take a deep

breath and think, how can this man move forward?

He's capable of such violence.

What does that mean for his future?

But is he a risk of violence in the future?

Yes or no? Well, I can't answer yes or no.

It'd be great if I could,

and then I could just pack my bags and leave.

It's a huge decision for the parole board to make and, if it goes wrong,

you know, you can imagine the furore.

We're not going to have to plumb this up.

They're nice, aren't they, Dan? Solid, aren't they?

Hey!

Hey!

Hey!

My goodness!

I didn't recognise you! Met Charlie in the blocks,

in the segregation, isolation.

We had a lot in common in terms of the struggles

that we was having at the time,

by the system which brings you together, doesn't it?

You unify because you understand the suffering that each one

of you are having.

And as a result of that, you form a bond.

You've got a black barn there, which will have a pitched roof.

You've got the white picket house here, like Little House

on the Prairie.

For those of the age bracket like myself who'll remember that.

And you'll step in the door here.

OK? And all this is open living plan, all this.

Can you compare this space wise to what you were used

to for 20 odd years?

OK, so...

So my cell would start here.

OK, then you go one, two.

That's your wall in your cell.

Then we're going to go...

..one, two, three, four.

That's the length of your cell.

If you was walking in my cell now, this is what I'd be doing.

"Fucking bastard! I know he was rude to me.

"He keeps fucking about with me!

"He keeps giving me agg! Fucking hell, wait till I see him!

"I'm not going to have it no more!

"He's been bullying me for a week."

Turn that way, you got a wall. You turn that way, you got a wall.

You're going to keep bumping into this wall,

bumping into that wall, bumping into...before you go, "Fuck off!

"I've had enough."

What sort of challenges will Charlie face when he gets out?

I mean, I can tell you right now, if someone's screaming in my face,

they are hell bent on doing damage to me because I might have not

indicated at the right time in the car.

They get out their car and they come flying up to you.

Well, you ain't getting past there, mate, cos once you're past there,

that means you want to get to me and I will belt you.

Self-defence.

But I'd be recalled for that.

It's stuff like that

that he would take offence to. Someone smashing into him.

He'd go, "What the fuck? "Who do you think you are?"

Took me a while to get my head around that.

Prod a dog, it'll bite you eventually.

DOG BARKS

FAINT VOICES OUTSIDE

Shall I go and tell them to shut up?

Cos I'm getting the hump with them out there now. Just...

Do you want to pause that, please, for a minute?

Cos they've got no brains, have they?

Like, they know I'm filming in here.

What's wrong with you?

Listen...please.

I don't... I've got very short patience with stupidness.

So you can see my temperament in prison.

Hasn't left me.

If somebody comes up into your face now...

They won't get that close.

Why would you want to get in my face?

I don't want to get in your bleedin' face.

I'm not having that.

As simple as that.

Still? Still.

And I'm in society.

The big dilemma is how long does it go on?

Is it better if he stays in for the protection of us all?

Is it better he's let out because he served so long?

Is it long enough?

And would I have grounds to object if they did let him out?

And probably considering the length of the sentence, at face value,

I probably wouldn't have many grounds to object

because it's 23 years.

I don't feel sorry for him now, but part of me does think that maybe

justice has been done and justice has been served.

You remember that Phil Danielson?

Yeah. The teacher? Yeah.

Yeah, the other teacher you took hostage.

Looking back on it now,

I probably overreacted.

Well, hold on. Let me... Let me stop you.

If I was on the parole and you said to me, "I might have overreacted,"

I would be like, "Right, I'm not fucking giving you parole."

Do you know why?

Why?

Because when you're talking about Phil Danielson, I want

you to say to me, "Do you know what, I think about that every day.

"I fucking ruined that guy's life."

Well, what I would go as far as saying is I do feel sorry for it.

Remorseful.

Er... That's the word that they want.

You can't live life regretting your life.

I come into prison, right, in 1974 and I deserved to come to prison.

I was a very dangerous person. I was unpredictable.

I was getting involved in guns.

I was doing robberies.

And I deserved to come to jail.

But I don't regret all that because it was my life.

How important is it to you that he shows remorse for what he did?

Oh, absolutely.

I think he needs to show remorse and I think it needs to be documented

remorse as well.

Not just a lot of clever talk to get himself back in the papers.

For me, the remorse is, if he gets out, is giving back to society

as a whole.

You know what I mean, like, it should continue.

All right, Georgie boy. How are you, son? That's a nice, smart T shirt.

Hey, come on, you Spurs.

Your muscles are looking quite big.

You've been working out?

I work out six days a week.

Do you reckon you can still take me in a fight?

Oh, behave yourself.

Right, we're obviously working tirelessly

to try and get you released.

If you do get out...

What do you mean, if I do? Well...

Well, when you get out, what do you want to do with your life?

Where can you see yourself?

I'm coming down your way to live. In Devon?

Yeah. I'm going to start off with a nice little caravan.

Get used to mixing with people.

That'll be good for you mentally. I think so.

As soon as I get out, I get a bus pass, don't I?

Last time I come out, George, within 48 hours

I had a sawn-off shotgun.

That's not a good start, is it?

Men of my age don't normally

get out of prison and turn their lives around.

My life ain't fucking started yet, mate.

So you later, Maz.

Make no mistake about it, making that transition from prison

to the community is difficult for everybody.

It's not an easy thing to do, and it sometimes goes wrong.

What will certainly be a big factor, will be in a sense what's

going to happen after release.

How are you going to live?

How are you going to manage your emotions in those situations?

How will you use the support that is available to you?

For someone who's done a long sentence.

It's a big adjustment.

RECORDING: See, people don't realise I'm an old-fashioned geezer.

I've seen the local area.

It's got beautiful fish and chip shops.

It's got a bingo hall, cos I do love a bit of bingo, you know?

Last time I played bingo was 1979 in Broadmoor Asylum.

And every morning I'm going to have my little run with my dogs,

Ron and Reg.

I'm going to be happy.

I'm going to be free.

Did your dad teach you how to fish?

Never had a dad when I was younger, did I?

My step dad, he was an evil bastard.

He was really horrible to me. And my mum was.

They used to make me eat dog meat sandwiches,

shoot me with a pellet gun.

Wanted to kill myself so many times when I was a child.

I just didn't want to live.

I was taken away from them.

I went to about 25 different schools.

Kept getting moved from pillar to post.

I remember one day, it was the worst situation I've ever had in my life.

I never had any PE gear and I went to school one day.

So I said to the gym master, "I ain't got anything to wear."

And he just says, "Right, don't worry, we'll get you something

"out of the lost property."

I said, "No, no, no, honestly, I don't want to do it. I'm fine."

He said, "You will do it. You will get changed."

I said, "Don't want to get changed. Don't want to do games.

"I don't want to do it."

And there's about 25 kids in the changing room,

and he stood up and said,

"Get your clothes off now and get changed."

And then I got changed and I was fucking stood there with a pair

of my sister's knickers on with a teddy bear holding

a balloon in front of all these kids in the class.

And, ev-...

It's just, like, everyone started laughing at me and stuff.

And then the teacher sent everyone out, and then he took me

to the office, and I had all these bruises on me and all these marks

on me and stuff where he'd put,

like, cigarettes out on me and things.

It was one most humiliating experiences in my life.

But these things like that that happen,

they make you a stronger person.

What was that like, then, to have grown up like that

and then to have that phone call to say, "I think I'm your dad"?

I've never had a dad, never needed a dad,

never wanted a dad

until I met Charlie.

We've really bonded the last few years.

Made me realise what I've missed out on.

Have you ever been angry with him?

Yeah, course I have. I told him.

I told him loads of times.

It's really hard not to love him.

I mean, if you knew him like I do

and you'd met him and you'd spent time with him and you speak to him

every single day,

he does basically what a lot of normal fathers, I would imagine,

would do with their children.

But just 45 years too late.

Do you know what I mean?

Charlie needs me and I need him.

You can sense the frustration.

I mean, I'm very frustrated.

It's political, 100% it's political.

RAAB: Today I'm publishing the root and branch review

of the parole system.

The public expect ministers to take responsibility for their safety.

I want to make sure the parole process is re-anchored back

into the primary and overriding focus on protecting the public,

particularly for the top tier of more dangerous offenders,

where the risk and assessing risk of what they might do in the future

is so difficult to predict with any precision.

Dominic Raab has said he's going to personally review high-risk cases.

So if that's the case, why do we have a parole board?

Are we going back to the dark days of the minister deciding

who should be released, even though he doesn't understand

the parole process and has never

watched or observed a parole hearing?

He knows best, he needs to be the one to make the decision.

I think politicians should set the rules and the laws,

having been elected - I think that's a good thing.

But I think it should be independent judicial bodies that decide

whether to lock someone up, not a politician.

And I think it's not a good thing when we give politicians the powers

to lock people up.

Generally doesn't go well.

We've got a cake with two little candles in it with 70 on it.

I've sent him a card and all the rest of it.

There's a little pressie, and, yeah, it's his birthday.

He doesn't really celebrate his birthdays.

Or he says, "Oh, I don't celebrate them anymore."

I mean, how can you celebrate a birthday when you're locked in

a cage on your own?

I mean, I'm looking forward to him coming out but, I don't know,

if I'm completely honest...

..it's going to be a fucking nightmare when he comes out,

because...

..I don't know.

I've just not got any experience of dealing with a 70-year-old man

that's spent 50 years locked in a room.

Nobody has.

It's just going to be so difficult.

Nobody's got that experience, have they? No.

And we need to obviously be there for him and support him

as much as we can.

And we know it's not going to be an easy journey.

It's going to be really difficult.

What do you think about, like, his violent episodes

in the past, and all that lot?

Would you be, like, scared of him coming out?

From what I've heard, yes.

Yes, I would be.

Would you? Yeah. Wouldn't you?

Yeah, but you've had a relationship with him. You've spoke to him a lot.

Yeah, but I only know him as I've spoken to him over the phone.

I can only say as I find.

And also, you know, he has been really violent

in the past and he could come out and cause someone some real damage.

But we won't know that until he comes out and gets given

the opportunity to prove... Yeah. ..that he's changed his ways.

Have you seen Charlie's rap sheet? No.

There's a lot of convictions on there for a lot of things.

Possession of firearms, wounding with intent, all sorts of stuff.

And the parole board are going to take a lot of convincing

to let him out.

The other thing, though, you know, I can be completely fucking

be manipulated by my own old dad and he could, you know, just get

out of prison and come round to the house and fall out with me one

day and kick the living fucking shit out

and stab me with a bread knife.

I don't know. You don't know what's going to happen, do you?

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