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ASHLEY BANJO: Last year, my world changed with one performance.

That was scary, that moment was really scary,

Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX

and I just felt, "Wow, we are on our own here.

"What have we done?"

'Within minutes of over seven million people watching,

'I became a figure of hate,

'ironically on a stage where 11 years earlier,

'the British public had voted me and my group the winners...'

DEC: Diversity!

'..of Britain's Got Talent.'

Diversity are used to being liked and having so much hate to read,

I was, like, is this really happening?

'I'm going on a journey to find out why my performance

'divided the nation.'

I didn't, like, set out to become an activist, but somehow here I am.

'Was I the problem?'

To be Black is to be told every day,

"You are not who you are, you are this stereotype."

How are you, brother? How are you doing, man?

The pressure, just from having this tone of skin is massive.

It put me in the mental institution.

'Was it the performance?'

You weren't aware of some of the facts around BLM,

cos we are told every day, "Oh, it's just about anti-racism

"and if you don't support it, you're a racist."

I was aware, I was aware.

'Or do attacks on me reveal a bigger issue with race in Britain?'

Don't BLEEP come round south-east London,

because we don't want to take the knee.

We've been growing up with Black people around us

for years and years and years

and there doesn't seem to be a BLEEP problem.

'I'm looking for answers.'

We're carrying with us

the emotional scars of what we'd experienced as a community.

'From those who fought for change...'

Let's get it out in the open.

If we've done something wrong, let's tell everyone.

Hello, how are you?

I can see a great number of Black and white people

who want to make things better.

'And those who disagree.'

All that did was cause controversy. It's making people more racist.

Racist people would say that, Jim.

Oh, Jesus, this is crazy.

Don't walk out, Jim. I want to talk to you about this.

This is literally where we started.

It doesn't look like much, but this is the base,

it's where we've been for, like, 15 years now.

This is home. So come, come in.

I went to a small private school in Essex,

finished school and straight to the studio.

What you see now is pretty much what I've always been, just younger.

The studio. And that is the D. I love it.

This is where a lot of the stuff happened.

We choreograph everything here, we train.

We don't always have to work in here, sometimes we just turn up

and people won't even know what's going on,

but this is like our base.

I've always been involved.

It's been a family business from the get-go.

This here was, like, my first ever job in TV.

This is me a bit more experienced in a suit.

Still don't know what I'm doing. We move on.

These are the outfits we wore on Britain's Got Talent,

but this is the first time we wore them.

Then we won, you know, the UK Street Dance Championships.

Went onto, erm, enter Britain's Got Talent.

The next thing you know, we were standing there opposite Susan Boyle.

The winner of Britain's Got Talent 2009 is...

..Diversity! CHEERING

And then, before I knew it, life exploded.

MUSIC: 'And The Party Don't Stop' by Marcel Bolano

'Since we won ten years ago,

'we've gone from strength to strength

'touring, sell-out shows, growing our fanbase.

'Then, a year ago, I created a dance

'that would change everything for me.'

MUSIC: 'Black Lives Matter' by Dax

# I can't breathe... #

'It was in response to a viral video

'of American George Floyd's murder by a white police officer.'

The first time I saw the George Floyd video,

I was in bed doing my sort of, like, morning Instagram scroll.

I just sat there, just...

gobsmacked at what I was seeing.

I just saw my dad.

We were consistently pulled over in our area as a family.

It just... it just sparked something in me.

It just kind of ignited something,

and it was at that moment that I was like,

"Whatever happens, I'm gonna speak up about this."

CHEERING

'My opportunity came while I was judging on Britain's Got Talent,

'and Diversity were asked to perform.

'There was only one dance I wanted to do.'

My dad asked me, you know, "Are you sure?"

When I think about this from his point of view,

Black man coming over to Britain in the '60s with his brother,

growing up.

He was around at a time when it was like,

"No Blacks, no dogs, no Irish" on the doors.

No wonder he was worried.

And I'm thinking to myself, "Of course I'm sure."

Dear Lord, we pray to you...

'We were performing under COVID filming restrictions,

'without a studio audience, but I knew it would emotional.'

..all the performances we've ever done in our life,

help us get them through it, Lord, we pray to you. Amen.

ALL: Amen.

APPLAUSE, WHOOPING

We walked on stage, I stood in front of the camera and I heard,

"Three..."

It's the one and only, Diversity! "..two, one, go."

I was just on.

And sometimes I think to myself, "Oh, you're lucky you didn't

"have a chance to think about it, cos you might have thought twice."

POEM: 'The Great Realisation' by Tomfoolery

Deep rooted in our system Fear, hate and ignorance

But racism was the symptom As the world watched on

Another Black life gone

Leaving what we thought we knew In tatters

What we thought we knew Some clearly didn't

Black Lives Matter.

Hey, Ash.

'Judging that night with me

'was Alesha Dixon, one of only a few people who watched it live.'

I had a feeling that given everything we'd been through,

you weren't just gonna come out and do what people would expect.

Yeah. I went down on one knee and it went, boom, silence.

And I saw you and I was like,

"Yeah, you get it. You... of course, you get it."

It floored me. Absolutely floored me.

Yeah, I remember.

I couldn't even, I mean, I'm so glad the camera never saw my face,

cos I was crying like a baby,

like I've never cried on TV before. Yeah.

And this is a reflection of how we're all feeling.

And the whole year, building up to that moment,

where everybody was allowed out, but we're carrying with us

the emotional scars of what we'd experienced as a community

and, in a way, it was all bubbling to the surface. Yeah.

But no-one could have predicted what was gonna come next.

'I was recording another show while the nation was watching

'the episode with my performance and debut as a judge.'

I was trying to catch up on Tweets, like in the breaks,

and as I was, like, scrolling down, I started to get a sense of it.

I remember saying to Ant and Dec, actually,

they were having a drink, it was the middle of a break.

"What's it saying, Ash?"

"What are people saying? Enjoying it?"

You know, "Loving show one?"

And I went, "Do you know what, boys?"

I was like, "This is, this is not right.

There's a weird feeling here."

"We've never really got this many negative Tweets at once."

TWEETS ECHO FAINTLY

Boom, boom, boom! Just didn't stop.

Like, through the night on the drive home.

It was just piling on.

The comments were just getting thicker and faster.

1,000 complaints, 1,900 complaints, 3,000 complaints.

And then it's like, "Guys, 20,000 complaints."

And when it starts to build and build and build,

you go, "Where does this stop?"

'Two weeks after the performance,

'TV regulator Ofcom had received over 24,000 complaints.'

It all just, like, came to life for me,

like, how real and how deep this all ran.

When you see all of that negative press and energy, it is personal.

We're called Diversity.

How are we gonna not stand up for something like that

that we believe in so passionately?

'It's affected all of us,

'including my brother and Diversity member, Jordan.'

When I saw him on his radio show talking about it

and I saw him break, that was really hard for me,

cos he doesn't break. He's strong.

We've said this now and I don't want to take it back,

but even if I wanted to, we can't.

So what does that mean?

I feel like the routine was just the beginning of this new chapter.

I think now that lid has been lifted, you cannot avoid it.

The conversations have to happen. Mm-hm.

I want to go out there.

I want to speak to people who have been active already. Yeah.

I want to speak to people that disagree with me.

You've put yourself in the firing line once,

and I think this is the moment now where you act on that,

and you take it to the next level.

I didn't, like, set out to become an activist.

I didn't set out to be the brunt of people's anger

at the fact people stood up and said, "Black lives matter."

But... somehow, here I am.

'Was much of the reaction to our performance straightforward racism?

'I want to do more than cry "racist" at critics.

'I want to unpack what racism really is and how it works.

'I'm starting my journey with some context.'

David. The man, the myth, the legend.

Historian, David Olusoga,

is at the forefront of British conversations about race.

So I remember watching your performance and thinking

it was just a moment within this incredible summer of events in which

these ideas about race and racism were being discussed,

but I also remember thinking, they're gonna come for Ashley.

It's really tough, and that's opened me up

to, like, a whole new world, really, and whole new way of thinking

that I'm still trying to make sense of, yeah.

It's difficult to navigate, because it exists

in this sort of toxic reality underneath our society.

To be Black is to be told every day,

"You are not who you are. You are this stereotype."

So it's gonna be difficult to make sense of,

cos it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't.

For something that feels like it affects you so much,

it's almost hard to grab hold of proof.

You know, we're not in the '70s any more, we're not in the '80s,

you know, it isn't as obvious.

The difference between the '70s and the '80s,

a lot of the racism was overt,

a lot of it was racial violence, there were swastikas,

and there were NF symbols on walls, and it was really in your face.

Things have got better, but racism still exists.

It exists in new ways, because we have new technologies,

we have new platforms.

And I think people feel emboldened, in the past few years

to say things on those platforms

that they wouldn't have said a few years ago.

There were people that voted for us and they still then complained.

So I think that's because it's all right

when we were entertaining people and dancing around,

but it's not all right if we speak our mind.

And I actually had a post to that effect.

You know, it was to me, Lewis Hamilton and Anthony Joshua.

And essentially, it was, "Shut up and do what you do,

"because that's how you'll be accepted."

You know, "You're not here to talk politics,

"you're not here to talk about what matters,

"you're here to dance, drive and box."

That's the kind of post that makes you feel like less of a person.

Those assumptions, it's almost like, "Is that how people see you?"

A dancing object, just a dancing monkey. You know, is that it?

Well, I think it gets to the heart of the forms of racism

we inherited from the 18th and the 19th centuries.

What those forms of racism said

was Black people did have some qualities.

Black people could be physical, they could be strong,

they could be athletic.

Er, what you couldn't do was have kind of analytical,

cognitive intelligence.

You, as a Black entertainer, under attack

are part of a long history.

Ira Aldridge, he was this great Black Shakespearean actor

who's famous across the world.

In the 1830s, he was driven out of London by reviews that attacked him

and criticised him and dismissed him in very, very racialized language.

When people say, "Stick to what you know, just be a dancer,"

what they're saying is,

"I'm comfortable with the structural racism of the society I live in.

"I'm comfortable with you in this box

"and I'll celebrate you in this box,

"but that's the limit of who you are because of your skin colour."

'A lot of the criticism I received was framed in this way

'and while many people stayed anonymous, others shouted about it.'

JIM DAVIDSON: 'All those people

'are just put together by Simon, aren't they?'

I mean, if you can piss you can dance, can't you, really?

Anyway, I saw them doing this most ridiculous...

'Comedian Jim Davidson,

'once the king of Saturday night entertainment,

'took to his online channel to express his opinions

'about our performance.'

'What was the point?'

And I saw it on the day that a Black man was charged

with murdering someone in Birmingham and injuring, quite badly,

seven other people.

What's that gotta do, I'm sure on that day

there were millions of people around the world who did wrong things,

and I hope that man who attacked people with a knife

was sent to prison, but...

what's that got to do with racial inequality?

Like... it baff... it actually baffles me.

And there's loads of white people sticking up for you.

Young white girls walking round with banners,

"Defund the police, support Black people."

5,600 illegal immigrants in this country, that's this month.

It's irrelevant. The only difference is the racism.

I mean, it's the only common denominator,

the fact that we're talking about people

who maybe look different coming from overseas.

The hatred and the venom he's got and the language he uses,

LIKE, it's the real ugly, real ugly side of it for me.

I know that sentiment lives out there.

I know it's more alive than I ever thought it was.

That video probably upset my mum the most.

Hearing a guy speak so violently about your kids.

I just think as a mum, you know, more than anything else,

it just broke her a little bit.

It's not directly about me, it's about the people I love...

..ironically, most of which are white.

'Last year, my Britain's Got Talent dance routine

'exposed a divide in the way our nation thinks about race.

'I'm on a journey to find out why it outraged so many people,

'including many who are far from racist.'

How are you? Bring it in. I'm good, nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you too. Genuinely...

'So, I've come to chat with Dominique Samuels.

'She's a really vocal critic of my routine

'and the politics of Black Lives Matter.'

I think the issue with entertainers using platforms

such as Britain's Got Talent for overtly political statements

is that a lot of the time,

they quite frankly don't know anything about politics,

so therefore, don't have an in-depth or nuanced view,

and I think it's very irresponsible to push messages like these.

One thing you said, it really stuck with me was...

"Entertainers like us don't have an idea about politics,

"we have an over-simplified view of the world."

My concern is that you weren't aware of some of the facts around BLM,

but you just assumed, cos we are told every day, like,

"Oh, it's just about anti-racism.

"And if you don't support it, you know, you're a racist."

Not true, I was aware.

But that performance,

some people would see it as you guys demonising the police.

Some people would see it as you promoting BLM, the organisation.

Of course. And what I would have appreciated

is to mention the bad things about BLM as well.

But I have an opportunity,

four minutes to create something, right?

If I didn't try to paint a picture of what was going on in the world,

simplistic or not, and try and open up more of a dialogue,

what kind of person does it make you, do you see what I mean?

I don't personally think that that performance in itself

has had a seismic impact

in terms of the condition of Black people in this country,

and I think a lot of focus does get put on gestures.

Some of the gestures, you're right, may feel hollow,

but they represent the idea of change,

and it's the step in the right direction...

But I think... I disagree.

..because otherwise, what do you do, Dominique?

People from my street who would never, ever normally talk about

the word racism were going, "Oh, what's this about?"

And it's op... it's sparking debate.

That for me, is one way to really activate change.

I get where you're coming from. I still have my disagreements,

but I think it's important to have that dialogue

and for it not to be like a shouting match, if you know what I mean.

If this magic pot was a time machine

and I could go back with you and say,

"Dominique, do we walk on stage and perform, yes or no?"

What would you say?

That's a hard question, because...

No, no, it's not. THEY LAUGH

What would you say?

Just off the top of my head I would say,

"Yeah, go ahead and do the performance."

I would probably still have criticisms.

No, fair enough. Come round here, Dominique.

Come round here, get up. Oh, my God, I'm all hot and sweaty.

Don't worry I'm sweaty, too. Good chat.

It was a really good chat. Genuinely good chat.

'Dominique highlighted frequent criticisms

'of the Black Lives Matter movement,

'that they're just a front for more radical groups

'and policies like defunding the police, but that's not my position.

'I want to find out

'if one of the most prominent BLM protestors agrees.'

Hello. How are you?

I'm good, how are you? It's so glad to see you.

'Imarn Ayton began attending marches last year

'and is now a leading voice in the movement.'

CHANTING The lives that we have right now,

the unity that we have right now is beautiful.

How did you get into activism?

Ah, you know what? The real moment was right here

when I organised my first protest on the 6th of June, Saturday,

with 20,000 people including Madonna,

and I stood on this plinth right here

talking about institutionalised racism.

And where do you stand within the Black Lives Matter movement?

What people don't realise is the BLM movement in England

comprises of several different ideologies.

So we have those that believe in the abolition of police,

or defunding police, or anti-capitalism.

Then you have people that aren't particularly political,

but they believe, again, in the essence,

which is Black lives matter.

And then you also have those that believe in reform, like myself.

So those that advocate for changing the education system,

or making sure that reviews in regards to racism,

or tackling equality, are implemented.

What would you like to see happen at this point?

A clear understanding of the different forms of racism.

Our frame of reference for racism in this country is overt,

and that is obviously, as we know, when someone has racial prejudice

and it is obvious, deliberate and direct. Yeah.

In actual fact, covert racism is what is most prevalent in England.

And that is when someone has hidden racial prejudice... Mm-hm.

...and they disguise it and rationalise it

with an explanation that society would deem acceptable.

I'll give you an example, the statement, "ALL lives matter."

Which is true, by definition.

And that's my point, actually, thank you very much.

Of course it's true. That's my point.

Yeah, mm-hm.

And so "ALL lives matter"

is obviously in response to Black Lives Matter,

and so it is shrouded with racial prejudice.

However, it is a factual statement and therefore, it is justified.

That is what we deal with.

This is the type of racism we deal with in this country.

'Both Imarn and Dominique have shown me that Britain

'is still divided about what racism is, let alone how to tackle it.

'There are so many opinions, but the hurt and damage remain.

'But why does racism matter so much?

'For many, the consequences are all too real.'

Is he, is he here?

Yes, my brother! How are you brother?

Yes, he is. How are you doing, man? Good to see you, man.

Come on in, come on in. Thank you for having me.

I'm just a little bit busy signing my new book.

Oh! Just a few of 'em I see.

Just a few, just a few, just a few. How many have you got to sign?

I've no idea. I'm just gonna try and get through as many as I can.

Wow!

'Actor David Harewood's launching a book about his experiences

'and I want to find out more.'

Just the small clips

and the small bits I've seen of you talk about your story,

there was pivotal moments for you where you felt like you changed.

When I came out of drama school, the world said to me,

"You're Black. You're Black.

"You play Black parts, you go for Black auditions.

"You don't go there, you don't play this,

"you play that." Yeah. Yeah.

I suddenly realised, "Oh, I'm not gonna be James Bond.

"I'm not gonna be the hero saving the girl,

"getting the money, driving the car.

"I'm not gonna be the hero."

The weight of that really hit me, knocked me for six.

How did that racism, you know, impact you and change you?

Dude, it put me in the mental institution.

Mm. A complete and utter psychotic breakdown.

APPLAUSE

Race is a very difficult issue to talk about in this country.

You've noticed. LAUGHTER

I see you've had experience of this, David.

LAUGHTER

Just the fact that we're not supposed to talk about race

plays into why so many Black people struggle with their mental health.

I think there's a lot of people

that are probably more impacted by it than people know.

We internalise it.

Four times more Black people than white people are...

end up in mental institutions.

Ten times more Black people than white people have schizophrenia

and other mental health conditions.

The pressure just from having this tone of skin is massive.

Feel it every day, yeah. I feel it every day. Yeah.

It's the first time ever,

I was scared of being in the public eye. Mm.

There was a fear and I would go, "What does that person think of me?"

And it was something I'd never experienced.

I've watched that performance, and it's fantastic. Thank you.

And it's really, really powerful.

The fact that you upset people, I think, is a great thing.

Because they were like, "We're not having that." Yeah.

We must continue with our art. Absolutely.

You must continue pushing that.

Because if you don't, I don't think it will ever change.

It gives hope to a lot of other people.

You're discovering your political power.

So I'd have to say to you brother, welcome to the struggle.

Yeah. THEY LAUGH

David Harewood, thank you very much. APPLAUSE

Ten years ago, I can't imagine this auditorium right now

maybe being so mixed and being so diverse.

I think it shows that you like the conversation really has widened out,

and David's a prime example of how that can be difficult,

life-changing, sometimes. But he's harnessed that

and what he's doing now is bringing all of these people together.

Oh, my God, smells too good.

I made a commitment to my diet this week.

It was the wrong week. It was the wrong week.

THEY LAUGH

'Since my Britain's Got Talent dance routine

'received tens of thousands of complaints,

'I've been trying to understand the nature of British racism.

'and why it continues to exist.

'David Harewood told me to fight the good fight,

'but what does that look like?

'The Black Lives Matter movement is just the latest iteration

'of very long battle.'

Hi, Ashley. Leila, how are you?

'As one of the UK's most respected activists,

'Leila Hassan Howe knows a thing or two about the fight.

'In the early 1980s, she organised a ground-breaking protest

'against one of the most devastating racist attacks in recent history.

'She's been a key voice in the movement ever since.'

Tell me a little bit about the New Cross fire

and then the events that happened after it.

So the New Cross fire, erm, was a house party,

West Indian house party.

There was a fire bomb thrown into the house.

The curtains took blaze first of all

and then the house just went, the fire just went up.

'13 young people lost their lives,

'including 16-year-old birthday girl Yvonne Ruddock

'and her brother Paul.'

ARMZA RUDDOCK: 'Honestly, the fire it was terr...

'the fire it was really terrible.

'And the children were screaming, and they stopped screaming.

'And when they stopped screaming, I said,

'"Oh, God, they're dead, they're dead."'

We're the political activists, so we call a meeting

to which hundreds of people turn up, including people from out of London.

So this news has spread.

The temperature's really high and more than that,

the police now trying to say that there'd been a fight

and young Black men had caused it.

That was stuff that we were angry about.

The decision's taken that we ought to have a demonstration to say,

"Enough is enough."

CHANTING: Black people united will never be defeated.

'On Monday the 2nd of March 1981,

'Leila's committee gathered 20,000 people

'to march for over eight hours through the heart of London.'

And then you just see people,

people, coaches coming, people coming.

CHANTING: ..people united will never be defeated.

You're being carried by the momentum, by the passion,

by the feeling, and by the fact that you know it's a just cause.

Sitting here now, after everything you've seen, been through,

been a part of... are you optimistic?

I'm optimistic, because I can see a great number of people,

Black and white people, who want to make things better.

One thing I'm starting to realise, this is not just Black history,

this is British history.

That actually is such an amazing gift. Thank you so much.

A pleasure. It's a part of history that I've never been taught,

I didn't know about.

"Keep on keeping on." Yeah. Always.

This is about people, this is about the way that we operate,

the way that we come together, our humanity, essentially.

Surely learning the history

and having a deeper understanding of what has been

is gonna help us massively in terms of where we need to go.

'I don't have to go very far to find more proof of racism's impact.

'In South London in 1993, 18-year-old Stephen Lawrence

'was murdered in a racially-motivated attack.

'Three of the white suspects were initially acquitted

'and a public inquiry concluded that the Metropolitan Police Service's

'handling of the case was institutionally racist.

'For many, this moment is the UK equivalent

'to the murder of George Floyd by a US police officer.

'I've come to meet retired police detective Clive Driscoll,

'who fought to re-open Stephen's case

'over a decade after his murder.'

If you spoke to Baroness Lawrence... Mm-hm.

..she's always believed that nobody cared for her son,

and so therefore, it was just another Black boy.

Do you think there's anything in "it was just another Black boy"?

The police weren't putting the same emphasis,

the same, erm... enthusiasm as if it had been a white lad.

We had a meeting where we just said,

"Well, let's just start again, as if it happened now, you know, today."

That was the jacket which we eventually found.

'Through Clive's efforts,

'two of the original suspects were given life sentences,

'but accusations of institutional racism continue

'to be directed at the Metropolitan Police.'

Institutional racism, is it imagined, or is it real?

You should ask those lads there, if I was honest,

how they've been stopped, how they felt,

how they were spoken to.

Did they think they got a fair crack of the whip?

They'd probably say that institutional racism

definitely sort of exists.

There's work to be done. Let's get it out in the open.

If we've done something wrong, let's tell everybody.

I tell young coppers that when I train them.

If you've made a mistake, tell everyone.

It's also easy to not want to listen if it doesn't affect you directly.

Yeah. But I think you know, at the end of the day,

we are in in this together, right? Yeah, definitely.

And we have to treat it that way. Oh, 100%.

I think we've gotta work harder.

'The Metropolitan Police are now bringing

'more of a community spirit to their patrols.'

I reckon in five minutes,

I could get all you lot doing a little one-two.

Get all of us doing a one-two? Yeah, definitely.

I think you've got more chance of getting us to do it,

but you'll never get him to do a one-two.

Him over there? He's our sergeant.

Sergeant Ford! Are you gonna dance?

The question is, no! THEY LAUGH

They've told me you've got moves, though.

Yeah, he's lying. THEY LAUGH

'Detective Sergeant Ray Sekalongo

'is at the forefront of police community engagement.'

How are you doing? You all right? Yeah, not bad, not bad.

What's the first response, when you turned up, police uniform,

to play football, what was the response?

Well, they were playing football,

then they was like, "Hang on, hang on. Are you a fed?"

THEY LAUGH

Back, back, back, back, back, back.

It gives us an opportunity, really,

just to protect your, change your perception, give a direct contact.

So when they do hear that at school and think,

"Ah, you know, not really too sure about the police",

at least they've got a bit of an informative idea

to think, "Mm, yeah, but I know this one guy called Ray."

Yeah, yeah. Called PC Ray.

"He's all right to be honest, and if I've got an issue,

"do you know, I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt." Yeah.

But why should I wait until someone's going in custody,

having been arrested for an offence,

to interview them to talk about changing their life?

When I can do it here and prevent it from going any further?

I mean, I've spoken to one kid right now and he wants to join the police.

Just give that positive mindset.

Honestly, seeing you just in here today,

just with nothing but positive energy,

playing with these kids in uniform,

honestly, I think it's those interactions that are priceless.

CHEERING

That should be part of training, to really interact

and care about the communities that you serve, right?

And in my opinion, it would be a problem halved, right?

'So, communication works and community policing works,

'but so much is clearly not working.

'The social media hate I received

'and the vitriol the Black footballers got

'when they missed penalties in the Euros final

'really brought this home to me.'

You any good at football? Terrible, er...

'I'm meeting up with David Olusoga again,

'at a location that's very fitting.'

Some people have said to me that taking the knee pre-game

is posturing, it's more sort of, you know, a gesture.

But life's about gestures. Football's full of gestures.

But I think the thing we have to remember

is every form of Black protest has been described as illegitimate.

We forget these days that Martin Luther King

was one of the most hated men in America in the '60s.

Now, taking the knee is wrong, the Black Lives Matter movement,

that's a terrible organisation.

There's never a way that is acceptable.

'Black footballers, especially outspoken ones,

'can be targets for racist abuse, as the 2021 Euros showed.'

Racism now, it really lives in social media.

Those poor boys,

a vast majority of what they experienced would have been online.

Rashford, for example, will be a hero,

miss a penalty, and you're a Black player

Really, and it was sickening. It made me really, really sad.

Well, we've given racism the red card and then social media took off.

And social media just became this place in which all of this

toxic racism could just be directed, at the people

that it had always been directed at, which is Black players.

I think that the moment that accountability comes into play,

and people can't just say what they want without any repercussions,

I think that will be a huge game-changer.

If you walk in the street and you throw racist abuse,

you will get arrested.

It's understood that's illegal and wrong.

You do it on Twitter or you do it on social media

and it isn't cracked down on anywhere near as much.

I reached out to Twitter for an interview

to see what they might do to combat this

and they refused to give an interview,

but they said, this was their statement:

And you know, from being on the opposite end of it,

65% doesn't always feel like enough.

You know, it's a real serious problem.

I mean, we've seen like with COVID

and then the public health crisis we've had,

if social media platforms really want to stop misinformation

and stamp down on things, they can. They can really identify this stuff.

I'd love to see that energy be put behind racism online.

'While most of my critics have hidden

'behind the anonymity of social media,

'I'm reminded that one person hasn't, Jim Davidson.'

JIM DAVIDSON: I saw a dance group called Diversity.

I thought that was the most indulgent piece of stuff

I've seen in ages. What, what was the point?

You don't see white couples on adverts any more, do you?

Most TV presenters are non-white.

It's not even factual.

Like, I mean, he's not even using statistics that are sort of, like,

even if they were stretched,

he's not even using real-life numbers or facts

that are gonna back up what he's saying.

Now he's just actually talking rubbish.

What the fuck do you want?

Diversity, what the fuck do you want?

Equality. A decent conversation.

To be around people who want to stand up for change

and see the world be a better place. Freedom of expression.

'After weeks of negotiation, and to my surprise,

'Davidson has agreed to meet me.'

About to, erm, have a conversation with Jim Davidson...

..a man that has said some disgusting things,

both about me and my group personally, and more generally.

Want me to sit there?

So this is a conversation that I never thought I'd have,

but here we are.

How are you? I'm not bad, mate, how are you?

Yeah, good, good.

Well, thanks for accepting the interview,

and thanks for coming to chat. No, it's my pleasure.

Because I want to have a real, direct, honest conversation

and I want to challenge some of the things you've said,

and your point of view.

But you've got to realise, for me to contradict what you're saying,

people will say, "How dare you?

"How dare you go against what Ashley is saying?

"You must be a racist."

All I will do is speak about what you've said. Sure.

I really want to keep it focused on purpose. Yeah.

Because as far as I'm concerned, that video you made about Diversity

was... it was racist in every way.

Every single way. Really?

If I was talking about you, why would that be racist?

It would be personal.

Mate, it was both. Personal and racist.

I'm from this country, I love this country.

I'm from a mixed-race background. Are you Black or white?

I consider myself mixed, mixed-heritage, so...

Mixed, that's good.

You should know that I believe the outcome from that dance

is more than your wildest dreams. In what way?

Well, cos people in this country

who are frightened, old, white people if you like, like me,

are thinking there's riots going on in Brixton,

in south-east London where I grew up.

There's stuff going on in America that's very unsavoury,

there's Black guys walking around with Black stuff.

Everyone's frightened. You diffused that.

People are supporting you, of all difference races.

I support Black lives matter,

I don't support Black Lives Matter, the movement.

Mm-hm, OK. I support that statement.

You've won, if you've won me over...

Did you support the statement when you made the video?

Yeah, I did support the statement. Do you consider the video

you made about me and the rest of Diversity, racist?

No. Not at all?

No, you just happen to be Black. It was about you.

OK. Did you think it was racist, your performance?

It was made to start a conversation...

Well, it didn't, because the people that I've spoke to

and the people that get in touch with me and give me the finger,

all that did was cause controversy. It's making people more racist.

Yeah, and racist people would say that, Jim.

People that don't like what they see.

What is this thing about race, actually? What's up with race?

We're not gonna have it where we're talking over each other.

They'll edit me out. No, no, they won't.

We're here for an adult conversation.

Am I here for you to question me if I'm a racist,

or are we here to talk about your dance, about Diversity?

We're to talk about racism... I don't want to talk about racism.

..what you think of me and Diversity, the dance,

was inherently racist, Jim. I don't believe it was.

And that is why I want to speak to you,

because you think differently to me. There you go.

'I'm trying to keep this fair and constructive,

'and I'm determined to keep the conversation going.'

Oh, Jesus, this is fucking crazy.

Don't walk out cos I'm asking you the hard questions. It's all right.

I'm quoting what you said.

And one girl got mugged by three Black guys...

And I'm trying to say to you... ..and she called me that morning.

'I'm sitting down with Jim Davidson to discuss his videos about me,

'Diversity and our performance.'

I saw them doing this most ridiculous thing.

They're all dressed as BLM people...

of course, and, erm, and they ended up with a policeman's knee

on the neck of a Black man.

I don't see any racism in this,

I just see a rotten cop, a rotten cop. OK, yeah.

If it was a white bloke under there, the cops should have got

the same amount in prison. Absolutely.

But what you did on the television... Yeah.

..is use your position to make a statement.

Yeah, absolutely. My problem was it was on

a light entertainment show on a Saturday night.

What that murder did, it stoked a flame, it awakened something,

it sparked something that is very real

for a lot of ethnic minorities in this country and around the world.

Yeah, but look at the cop. Look at the cop.

We don't have people like that in this country, surely.

I'm happy for you that you have the privilege, in a way,

of believing that.

Because I've been in situations

where I have been discriminated against,

arrested, taken to the side, stopped and searched.

The statistics prove it.

Discrimination is disproportional

when it comes to things like stop and search. Yeah.

And when it comes to people in prison, these are proven things.

So these things is what people were protesting against on the day.

And I saw it on the day that a Black man was charged

with murdering someone in Birmingham

and injuring, quite badly, seven other people.

When you speak about those seven people being stabbed by,

as you refer it "Black man" with heavy emphasis on that...

Could you not say, "A Black man murdered a white person?"

Let me finish, please. No, I won't let you finish, Ash,

because you're talking bollocks.

Let me respond to you and tell you why that's racist.

Why is it? I'll tell you why it's racist,

and this is how racism lives. I didn't make him Black.

Because Jim, what you see there, and what you emphasised very heavily

in the reporting of that story on your channel was his skin colour.

So, what... Please, let me finish.

Oh, right, so why didn't you have a Black dancer kneel on the neck?

Because what George Floyd represented

when he was killed by that white officer, was a wider problem.

It represented a wider racial discrimination.

No, it didn't, it didn't. It represented a bad cop.

There are countless videos of unarmed Black men

being killed by police. I'm not here to defend that.

That's what George Floyd represented. What you then did...

Yeah. ..was then take a random killing

and you used it to represent the fact that the man was Black,

so it's the same.

And that link in itself, that's racist, Jim.

Yeah, is it? OK, OK, well, you've got me there.

It's unfair. You've got me there.

How do we report, then, if a Black man's murdered someone?

A man. A man, yeah. OK, gotcha.

You did a dance about a crime, a terrible crime.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, but ignored all the other crimes

that are committed by Black people,

cos even to report it seems racist.

No. What's racist is

when you use their skin colour as a reason for crime.

Why was his colour relevant?

Can you not see how stupid you're looking here?

I can't see, Jim, because that is symbolic of ethnic minorities

being oppressed for hundreds of years.

All right, gotcha. Yeah, right. Right.

It's a different thing. Yeah, OK.

Oh, Jesus. This is fucking crazy.

We're gonna move on, because it's a bit like,

you know, it's the way that you talk about it

and the venom that you speak about it with

and the way that you talk about Black people.

George, George... George? George.

I beg your pardon, it's on my mind at the moment.

I've come here to tell you... Let's finish talking.

Let's finish talking about this. I admire you for doing it.

Don't walk out cos I'm asking you the hard questions.

Nah, it's all right mate. We're here to talk about...

No, no, no, this is a no-win. I'm only quoting things you've said.

Ashley, Ashley, Ashley. Stick to dancing, you're brilliant.

Jim, I'm quoting things you've said. Come on, let's go.

Jim, I'm only talking about the things you've said.

Jim, I want to talk to you about this,

because your vid... at this moment in time, Jim...

It's a much better programme me walking out.

No, but Jim, at this eight minute, at this moment in time,

your video is proof of what I'm... what I did that routine for.

It's proof of the racism that's alive and well,

the people that support it.

Well, you've won, Ashley. You've actually won.

I think you're brilliant. That's not the way out. Jim.

Don't you just hate that? When you can't even storm out.

Jim, come on. No, mate, no.

Why are you walking out, Jim?

I am disappointed he left, because it was an opportunity for us

to sit and really engage in a discussion.

I'd barely got into half the questions I wanted to ask him.

And in a way, he's... you know what? Maybe he did the right thing,

cos it was only gonna get harder from there.

'It was a tough encounter for both of us.

'I wish we could have reached some understanding.

'The next day, Jim gets in touch.'

I've just had a text forwarded to me from the producers,

from Jim Davidson that says,

"Thanks. Sorry I couldn't stay, he was on transmit, but no receive.

"We will get two good shows out of this."

That means Jim was obviously secretly recording

and he plans to put out his own version.

I wanted to have a chat, a constructive,

even if not palatable chat about racism,

and he's telling me that I didn't listen.

I was listening, I just didn't agree.

If Jim Davidson and people like him keep walking away

from the conversation, spewing their bit,

not coming to the table and be willing to engage in a dialogue,

then how do we ever move forward?

'Seven months after our dance was broadcast,

'it's back in the spotlight.'

Oh, my gosh. You shook?

I'm nervous. You shooking?

Yeah, of course I'm nervous. What do you mean?

You're gonna be fine. It's gonna be good.

Nah, it'll be cool. No, we've got this.

Either way. Shall we go? Let's go, let's do it.

'It's the day of the BAFTAs.'

APPLAUSE

Welcome to the self-esteem lottery that is the BAFTAs.

APPLAUSE

'Our dance routine has been nominated for

'the Must-See Moment of the Year Award,

'the only one voted for by the public.'

The award goes to...

..Britain's Got Talent, Diversity. APPLAUSE

Firstly, thank you to every single person that voted for us,

because this, as much as there is so many conversations

and so much that needs to change, this is what change looks like.

Thank you all so, so much. APPLAUSE

Let's keep having those difficult conversations.

I remember saying to him, that moment,

"Are you sure we should put that in?" Hm-mm.

And I remember Ash saying to me,

"The reason you feel like you can't is the reason we should."

The fact that all of those people complained,

it indirectly proved exactly why we needed to dance,

because people were upset by a subject,

and a subject that needs to be spoken about.

HE LAUGHS

Oh, my gosh!

'Our BAFTA win has capped off an unbelievable year.

'For me, that vote represented a rejection of hate,

'and showed the true heart of the British public.'

I've communicated through dance my entire life

to entertain, to inspire.

And there are people I've met that are a lot braver than I am.

But one thing we all have in common

is that we just believe in something wholeheartedly

and we want to stand up for it.

And that doesn't necessarily mean you have to, you know,

arrange a protest or do a dance on a mainstream television show.

It just means that if you hear something,

or you see something you think isn't right, stand up.

Just put your heart in the right place.

Nobody's perfect, I'm not perfect, far from it.

And this whole process doesn't have a perfect ending.

I don't now understand everything,

but I'm on the way just to being better and I'll continue to fight,

continue to stand up, and that's all I can ask of anybody.

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