All language subtitles for BBC HARDtalk - Erika Lust, Erotic film director BigJ0554

Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk.

I'm Stephen Sackur.

Porn is one of the biggest
drivers of worldwide internet

traffic and a generator of vast
amounts of money for the titans

of the online porn industry.

But it is also an industry
in a state of flux.

The biggest online porn
platforms have been

accused of profiting
from criminality and abuse.

Can pornography ever be
truly non-exploitative

and feminist-friendly?

Well, my guest today
is Erika Lust, pornographer,

feminist and entrepreneur.

Is there such a thing
as ethical porn?

Erika Lust in Barcelona,
welcome to HARDtalk.

Thank you very much, Stephen.

Erica, let's start
with your backstory.

You were a Swedish student
focused on political science,

specialising in human rights
and feminism, I believe.

So how did you get from there
to be inside the porn industry?

Well, it's kind
of a long story.

At the same time, I mean, it's
not that big a step in the end,

because I am actually doing
what I always wanted to do.

I am working
for women's rights.

I'm working to try to make
a new perspective on something

that kind of bothered me.

I was a young adult and I was
starting to look at porn.

And I think that something
became very clear to me at

the beginning, and it was that
most of the porn that I watched

was very male-centred.

It was always about the men
and about their pleasure,

and the women were used somehow
as some kind of tools

or like beautiful objects,
but it wasn't really

their stories that
were being told.

And I think that, for me,
that was one of the most

important reasons why I ended
up somehow deciding that

I wanted to try this genre,
I wanted to try to make a movie

myself that had my values but
an explicit, an adult movie.

Erika, it is fascinating.

But I wonder if you can
understand why perhaps some

people, maybe many people,
watching this around the world

will be a little bit cynical
about the notion that you are,

quote, "working for women's
rights" by monetising film

of women having sex with men...

..well, with women and men.

I mean, you know, monetising
sex, is that truly working

for women's rights?

Yes.

Monetising sex is not
a reason of not working

for women's rights, I believe.

What is important when you're
talking about the work

that we are making is how
are we making it, with what

values, with what perspective,
how are we caring about our

crew and our...performers?

And I think that there lies
the big difference -

who's participating in making
these films and how are we

representing people on screen?

I think that in the world
we live in today, we are in

a great need of watching better
images of sex on screen,

because what we have
seen on the internet

during the last...

at least 12 years, where
the tube sites have taken over

most of the space of showing
adult films, and the values,

really, if you go online
on these tube sites

and you look at how
they are presenting these films

is very misogynistic,
many time racist, and it's

a way of really fetishising
people and trying to divide us

into small groups.

And in the end, these big
companies - because I think

it's important to understand
how the adult industry works...

Well, I agree it's important
to understand how it works,

and the adult industry
generally focuses

on the word "consent".

And the industry says, "Look,
the women in our films,

"the performers..."

And of course, there's men,
too, but we're focused

right now on the women.

"The women are always
wanting to do this.

"They are willing to do this.

"They give their total,
complete, voluntary consent."

And you say the same
thing about your women,

you focus on consent.

But I would put it
to you that consent

oftentimes isn't enough.

It doesn't necessarily ensure
that there is an equal power

dynamic between the performer
and those who are organising

the shoot and who are
behind the camera.

We not so very long ago
interviewed a young woman,

Mia Khalifa, who became a,
unfortunately for her,

an internet sensation
when she was filmed performing

sex acts with men
as a very young woman

aged 21, wearing hijab.

She's of Lebanese-American
extraction.

She deeply regrets what she
did, but she described to me

why she agreed to do it.

She was signed to a contract
with a porn company at a very

young age, and she says,
although she willingly

signed, she was actually
fearful and intimidated

through the whole
of the process.

How can you be sure
that your performers

aren't going through
the same feelings, too?

I think it's about the time
that you are giving them

and the preparation before
you are deciding

to work with someone.

What we are doing is a very
long process where we are

having in-depth interviews
with our performers, trying

to find out who they are,
what they have done before,

why they are doing this kind
of work, what they like,

what they don't like,
if they have preferred

performers they would like to
work with, if they have a no-go

list of people they definitely
don't want to work with.

And I think it has to do
with how people are getting

into today's films, how
involved they are in

the process.

It's about understanding,
obviously, power dynamics,

and it's about trying to be
as communicative as possible

with everyone who is
involved in the process.

Yes, you style it
as feminist porn.

Do you only use women
directors, for example?

Not only.

We have worked also
with a few male directors,

but they are also feminist
directors, obviously,

even if they are male.

Well, is it obvious?

I mean, how can you define
a male director of porn

as a feminist director?

Well, because of the process
of interviewing, where

we are talking about the values
we have and how we share them.

But I think that when you are
talking about the concept

of feminist porn and what does
it mean, I understand that

there's many people out
there thinking that in the word

"feminist" is somehow something
anti-men and in the word "porn"

there's something anti-women
and they can't make them go

together, or they imagine
for themselves a bunch of very

aggressive women putting
up, you know, putting

on their strap-ons, getting out
in the world to kind

of get the men.

That's what people imagine.

But when we are talking
about feminist porn here,

we are talking about the people
who are participating

behind the cameras.

And women are definitely very
important in this process

and how we are working.

Well, I appreciate the passion
with which you speak of this,

but I just want to quiz
you on one specific

aspect of your film work.

That is, you do explore
violence in terms of bondage,

domination, S&M, sadomasochism.

You explore that sort of,
you know, that dark arena

of sexual experience.

And I think I'm right
in saying that you personally

directed a movie, Safe Word,
which depicts, you

know, BDSM on film.

And there are women -
and, indeed, men -

who have a real problem
with the filming of BDSM

in the sense that what we often
see in those sorts of films

is violence perpetrated
against women, women

immobilised, women hit,
women exploited

in different ways.

Now, are you entirely sure
that that's feminist?

Well, it can definitely be.

I don't see a problem
at all with a woman wanting

to explore that side
of her sexuality.

I think that this kind of films
regarding BDSM are films that

are very needed to be able
to see how people are dealing

with these kind of situations,
how they are communicating

their sexual boundaries
and their sexual desires

through this practice,
and in this film, Safe Word,

that is definitely what we are
doing, and you can see

the journey of a female
character and how she gets

into this genre and how
she starts exploring it

and how she understands it
and how she communicates...

Erika, Erika, let me
put to you the words

of the Washington, DC-based
National Center on Sexual

Exploitation, who last year
wrote this about the portrayal

of BDSM on film.

"Female submission," they said,
"is the opposite of feminism.

"There is no feminist
way to hit a woman.

"Feminists want violence
against women to be

"unthinkable, not sexy."

Can you see where
they're coming from?

I mean, I do understand
what they are coming from.

They are coming from systemic
images that we see online

on free tube sites that
are open to everyone

of lots and lots of images
where, obviously, women

are in submissive roles.

Well, they are, with respect,
they are in certain

phases of Safe Word,
as I understand it.

You know, you have women there
who explore their fantasies

about having violence
committed upon them.

But I think, as women,
that we are allowed

to explore this genre.

We are allowed to explore
our sides of submission

without having to be questioned
if we are a feminist or not.

But eroticising violence
doesn't necessarily

get away from the fact
you are portraying

violence against women
as somehow acceptable.

But now you are talking
in a way that I would be

showing violence against women.

That's not at all what I
am doing in my work.

Here, you are talking
about a very specific film

where the main character
is a woman and she wants

to explore her submissive side.

There are also women
doing the dominant side

of this exploration
in the film, for example.

Erika, let me ask you this.

No, I'm listening intently
to what you're saying,

and I'm trying to tease out
the different aspects of it.

One thing I'm thinking
about is not how you make it

and the thought you bring to it
as the director, I'm thinking

about how people receive it.

I'm thinking
about the audience.

I'm also thinking of
the research work done

by various different American
and British academic

researchers who've looked
at the fact, for example,

that many young people,
teenagers, are watching porn

but in particular are watching
porn involving this violence,

BDSM, and it is being
normalised for them.

To quote the British Board
of Film Classification,

who sponsored a survey,
quote, "Most children

"had viewed pornography
that they found disturbing

"or overly aggressive,
with many saying they believed

"it had influenced how
they then behaved in sexual

"encounters and the way
they felt about their bodies."

Doesn't that concern you?

Not the motivation you have
for making it, but what happens

inside the heads of the people
who watch it?

Of course that concerns me.

But remember, now you are
talking about material that

are open for everyone online,
for young people, for

teenagers etc, material that
are not behind a paywall.

I want to be very clear
on this, because, of course,

the movies that I make
is for an adult audience

who are over 18.

That's why they are also behind
a payment barrier online.

No, I understand that.

But the truth is that
because you are part

of an industry which has over
the last few years made more

and more pornography freely
accessible, you can't really

walk away from an association
with that industry, can you?

Or is it your insistence
that you are something

completely different?

What I can try to do
is to change that

industry from the inside.

I can try to influence people
to become better, to think more

about their representation
of women that they are

doing in their movies.

And I can bring this debate
out to the mainstream,

because it's something
that we haven't talked

about for many, many years,
even if these tube sites online

have become bigger and bigger
and we all know that they

have a huge influence.

I am aware that porn has
become sex education.

Whether we like it or not,
that is the situation

we are in today.

So I believe that it's very
important for parents

and educators to talk
to our younger generations

about this situation
and about sex and about porn,

and to explain to them
that porn is fiction,

that it's not the same
as actual sex, that many

things that you see
in porn is like in movies,

where you can watch Superman
fly, but in reality,

no person can really fly,
and the same is

happening with porn.

If I may ask you a personal
question, Erika, do

you have kids of your own?

Two girls, ten and
thirteen at this moment.

And do you feel that
they should be exposed

to pornography over the next,
what, two, three, four years?

No, I don't think they should.

I think that that is something
that they could start

exploring when they turn 18.

But I am aware that
they are being exposed

to porn if they go online
and search for it.

Obviously, as I am who I am,
I have a situation where I know

about restrictions and I know
how I can prepare my

screens in my home.

But remember that even if I
have that information,

most people don't.

So what I need to do
as an adult is the same

as I would do when -
which hasn't happened yet,

because of their age -
but when they want,

they will come to me and say
that they want to go

to a bar or a discotheque.

I need to prepare them
for the world we live in,

so I need to have that kind
of conversations with

them about alcohol,
about cigarettes, about

drugs etc etc.

It seems to me in your career,
you've constantly had

to lock horns with people
who want to censor pornography,

who want to ban pornography.

And you've always,
frankly, been on the side

of the argument which says,
"No, we need to have the

"freedom as adults to explore."

But I just wonder right now,
when there is such a live

debate about what you call
the tube platforms,

the platforms where people can
upload sexual content,

even from their own lives,
and put it online for

others to view for free,
whether you think there needs

to be much greater control
and indeed maybe even

censorship of that
form of pornography.

Are you now, in a sense,
arguing for much

tighter restriction?

I do believe that it should be
behind a payment barrier.

I think that is the clearest
way to say, "Hey, this material

"is meant for adults."

Now, in terms of what you want
to do with your company,

are you going to continue
to sort of push for

more access, for...

..I don't know,
for greater audiences?

Or do you want to maintain your
place in a very small niche?

What is your ambition?

And, to be honest, how
much money do you want

to make out of sex?

Well, my ambition is to get
more women into porn.

That's what I'm looking
for behind the cameras.

I want more women to create
their own companies.

I want more women to get
into important positions.

I want more women to become
directors and producers

and screenwriters and start
telling our stories

from our perspective.

How are we living
our sexuality?

What is our desires?

How do we want to be
represented on screen?

That is my biggest ambition.

And it's a project that I've
been working on for many years

now, to finance and produce
other female directors' films.

I just wonder if you might not
be overtaken by the next wave

of internet sort of pioneering
work in this field,

and that is platforms
like OnlyFans, which remove

all mediation, curation,
directing of sexual content

by empowering people themselves
to upload content on demand

to the user direct, so that
there's no need for somebody

like you and your company
to direct porn, because women -

and, indeed, men -
can simply provide the content

for themselves, film it
for themselves and interact

directly with their -
quote, unquote -

"fans" or "consumers".

That could kill your business
model, couldn't it?

It could, but I don't think it
will, because the quality

of the films that we are making
is very, very different

from what you will find
on OnlyFans, though I think

it's wonderful that at last
we have this opportunity

for performers to make
their own content and sell it

directly to the audience.

I'm really happy that they
have this opportunity.

But then remember that
what we are providing is

something quite different here.

We are working with cinematic
models, we are working

with narratives, we are telling
stories.

It's a different
kind of format.

How have you coped with
the realities of a global

pandemic, of Covid-19?

You're talking to me from home.

I don't know whether you've
been able to shoot any

of your upcoming porn films
through this pandemic.

What on earth has it meant
to the porn industry?

Well, it's definitely meant
a stop of producing,

especially a year ago in March,
when we all entered

the quarantine.

Then we have started
to understand how this Covid

virus works and we have been
able to go back to shooting,

but under more strict
situations where, of course,

the cast and the crew
has been tested.

And what happens is that I am
quite lucky in that aspect,

because we had shot quite much
material before the pandemic

so we could continue
releasing our films.

But I think that, of course,
this has meant that we all have

to think very carefully
about the health situation.

I mean, I can't imagine
an industry which involves more

intimate personal contact
between people than the porn

business, and I'm just
wondering if there are lessons

that you can learn and that
you in the industry have

learned from everything you had
to adapt to.

After the spread of HIV/AIDS
in the late 1980s, it meant

that the porn industry really
had to focus on health

testing, on mandatory
tests for all performers.

Is that something that perhaps
is helping you to plan

a post-Covid future
for your industry?

I mean, this industry
is definitely an industry that

knows a lot about the health
testing and that is very

prepared and has made huge
steps into a very professional

industry regarding
the health testings.

Final thought, and it goes
back to the beginning

and your Swedish experience
as a political science major,

your focus on human
rights and feminism.

In all honesty, are you in this
business and have you been in

it for decades because you can
make a lot of money rather

than the feminist message that
you've been giving to me?

Why can't you have the two
of them coming together?

I don't see any problem,
really, with earning money

from making respectful,
good-thought films

with the values that
I want to share with the world.

But I definitely think that
I could not have done this

if my passion for making this
kind of films hadn't been

that big that it is.

Erika Lust, I thank
you very much indeed

for joining me on HARDtalk.

Thank you.

Thank you, Stephen.