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Applaud, you know, like the right decisions, man.

It's like, okay, even in all this stupidity

and craziness, like, okay, you can look back

and, okay, I'm not that stupid.

I can survive this or something else, you

know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true.

So have you shot, like, have you, like,

what's your year been like?

So, like, I remember, like, when the pandemic

hit Mexico, I was in a wedding, and

the bride and groom, they're photographers, and they

were like, okay, this weekend, we're gonna just

forget about everything, man.

On Sunday, we'll see.

And that wedding, it was March 12 or

13, and I cried like baby, man.

I was photographing and crying at the same

time, because I thought, maybe this is the

last one, and all these big question marks

following up.

So I have photographed three weddings so far,

like, during the pandemic.

Like, two small weddings, like, 20 guests, and

another one, like, 10 guests, and one that

there were, like, 90 guests.

And I say goodbye to that wedding while

a few guests were trying to remove my

mask, and they were trying to give me

shots.

And that's when I went to the bride

and groom, and I say, hey, guys, I'm

leaving.

Holy shit, really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, they were drinking mezcal and tequila, man.

And it was like 7.30 p.m.,

and everybody was quite drunk.

So I started to photograph that wedding, like,

around 7 a.m. So I say goodbye

at that time.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

And was that your last one so far

for the year?

Yes, I know I have one, I have

two more this year, two in November.

One, it's a small wedding, and the other

one, I think it's like, like, middle, like,

like, 60 guests or so.

Yeah, yeah.

And is it, so are people, like, are

most people in Mexico wearing masks and being

normal, or is it, like, an extension of

the States, where people are like, you can't

tell me what to do?

Like, is it like that?

I think most of the people are being

respectful.

Yeah.

After a few shots of tequila or mezcal,

just people want to have a normal life

again.

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm talking with my couples about that,

like, hey, if there's going to be a

party, I think I might do, like, the

first dance, and if I see, like, the

energy is going up, I'm just going to

leave.

Are you okay with that?

Yes.

And that's it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Huh.

Yeah, I think that's one of the scary

things that I know I've thought about with,

like, going forward is, you know, on a

normal year, right, a normal year for the

last 20 years of shooting, if you wake

up on a Saturday, and your nose is

and your throat sore, you just take some

DayQuil and some Advil, and then you go

to work, like, you don't even think about

it, right?

You're like, it sucks.

I don't feel great.

But you take a couple pills and you,

you, you know, push through the day.

Yeah.

Now, it's like you wake up on a

Saturday and your nose is stuffy and your

throat sore.

You're like, holy shit, what am I gonna

do?

I think that to me, you know, makes,

you know, going to these weddings when I

shoot, like, so much more important to like,

you know, like you did, like leave when

shit gets weird, because it's like, yeah, I

can't afford to get sick.

Like, I don't have like, you know, we

don't have a normal job, where you can

call in sick and be like, yeah, just

take a week off and come back when

you're better.

Like, it's you, you're screwed.

Like, I think that, to me, is always

at the back of my head with all

of this is, you know, because I've been

to weddings, I think most of, most of

us have in the last X amount of

years where you don't feel well, but you

just go.

Yeah, now you can't.

Right.

Yeah.

Even with fever, man, I have done a

few weddings with fever or diarrhea as well,

man.

And go, go, go, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I remember years ago, I went to

a wedding where I had strep throat, and

I couldn't talk.

And I remember, like, whispering to my couples

really close.

And I was like, okay, you know, but

you're screwed now.

Like, you can't show up sick.

That's it.

Like, even in public, when you sneeze now,

like, oh, my God, no one thinks it's

Corona.

Anyway, yeah, I have drove to most of

the weddings that I will usually fly, you

know, because, because I'm, I don't know, right

now, I'm afraid of flying.

I don't know.

And they say that it's safe and all

that.

But I prefer to drive for like nine

hours.

Yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow, that's a long drive, man.

That's...

Yeah, I drive with my youngest brother.

So it's been a time for connect, you

know, I was like, okay, let's connect in

the road and just remember the good old

days or whatever.

And I don't know, it feels safer.

And yeah, and this time as well, like,

thank God we have been blessed as well

that we have taken care of money and

savings and, and how to say, diversify our

businesses as well.

So I have allowed myself to, I don't

know, to start shooting with flash that I

suck at that.

I was always like, no, man.

So I'm doing like a, a home studio.

And I'm practicing with all that just to

see what happens, man.

And even like Profoto, like the flash company

contacted me, hey, here's some gear, try it

out, man.

I'm like, okay, let's see what happens.

So it's, it's just, and tweaking like the

presets as well, like the new set.

So it's, yeah, I'm a very hyperactive and

anxious guy, as you know.

So it's been my time to, to try

to put in practice a little bit of

like chillness, but still freaking scary.

Same time.

And then how does next year look like?

What does next year look for you?

Does it look busy?

I don't freaking know, man.

Like, like rebookings.

I haven't, how say, uh, uh, find my

couples.

Uh, so we just moved the agenda and

hope for the best to, to get those

bookings as well.

But like I had a, I had a

booking in the States and, and they say,

Hey guys, I don't, I cannot go there

right now.

And they're considering eloping in Mexico.

So if they elope in Mexico, I'm going

to upscale their, their collection for free.

Because for me, it's, it's better to shoot

it like that.

You know?

So, so I'm trying to negotiate with all

the couples, uh, with a few couples.

Um, yeah, they say, Hey, we're not going

to Mexico to, to, to, to get married.

So I say, okay guys, they already paid

the down payment.

That's like 20, 25% of the collections.

So I say, okay guys, do you have

a, you have a year that you can

apply that into any other service?

Yeah.

Uh, but in Mexico.

Yeah.

So, so I'm, I'm trying to be very

honest and I'm, I'm not giving money back,

you know, where'd you go?

But I'm, I'm trying to them to feel

taken care of.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's yeah.

Well, I think that's, I think if you

have good clients, I think most people are

pretty understanding.

I think, you know, you hope.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I haven't had any, any, any like big

issues.

Only one that it was a wedding in

Italy, but the, the relationship ended, uh, like

they, they're not getting married anymore.

Not because of the COVID they were just

like, like bad shoes or a bad match.

Yeah.

So, and they wanted the money back and

I say, sorry guys.

Uh, and thank, thank God I haven't bought

like the, the flights or anything.

So yeah.

You should just give them a discount on

their new wedding.

Yeah, man.

When you get married again, you guys can

fight over who gets the retainer.

Yeah.

No.

And, and like the, the, the bride told

me that she put like a, like a,

how to say like a, like a distance

with like a warranty that the guy couldn't

be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a restraining order.

Restraining order.

That's it.

So I'm like, sorry guys.

And yeah, those, those were the ones that

they, they didn't fight back so hard, but

they were like, Oh, come on.

You know?

Yeah.

Only one couple and I've had a few

cancellations and okay.

It is what it is.

Yeah.

Yeah, dude.

Well, okay.

So I want to, all right.

So I want to ask you, um, so

I want to ask you questions.

Go for it, man.

Let's, let's, let's, let's do a Q and

A together.

I came down and I'm like, Jenna, what

do you think we should ask fair?

What do you think people want to know

from fair?

You know?

And I was like, I don't, I feel

like I've known you for so long that

it's like, I kind of, you know, we've

done so many workshops together and we've shot

together.

So for me, it was hard to get

my head around what people would want to

know, because I feel like I have seen,

you know, I've seen you speak and I

know part of who you are.

Um, but, all right.

So one of the things was, you know,

scouting locations.

Do you scout before you go to weddings?

Like, do you Google earth?

Do you talk to planners?

Like, how do you, now I know a

lot of us aren't traveling anymore, but when

you were traveling, like, are you scouting places?

Well, your, your, your community has to know

that I was, before becoming a friend of

yours, I was a big fan, man.

And, and remember your, your texture set, I

bought it.

And they have to know that hopefully you

can find some pictures of them and, uh,

uh, and just share them.

And because yeah, perspective, I'm in like, yeah,

really, man.

That was a long time ago.

Yeah.

Dude.

Yes.

But, but I, I speak to everyone that

everybody's so, um, or most of everyone, it's

so approachable if, if you, I don't know,

connect with people not being an asshole and,

and you're not there to, to, to ask

for, for bookings or something, you know, uh,

things can, can happen.

So, so I, I always put you as

an example about that, like, Hey man, like

you can become friends of your heroes and

then you can create an amazing friendship and

then you can grow as a community as

well.

So like, I, I want every, every time

people were like, yeah, because these guys, no,

no, no, no, no.

Like everybody started from, from someplace.

Yeah.

And then.

So yeah, location scouting.

Yeah.

I, I, I, I suck at that man.

Like when it's a destination, when usually I

try to arrive two days before the event,

uh, sometimes only one, and I just try

to, to walk around, uh, around the place.

Uh, I try to forget about the main

location.

Most of the time, if it's in an

all-inclusive hotel, especially if it's in an

all-inclusive hotel, I try to, to, to

go where no other human being has been

before.

Uh, because it's, it can become so vanilla,

you know?

Uh, like, like your style and my style

are way, way different.

Uh, you, you, you get a lot of

bookings in some amazing places, man.

And, and for me, usually it's like, Hey,

bring the cheap Mexican and you have, and

you have to create something out of something

like, like the worship we did together that

I found those freaking two.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The poles, man.

And you were, look at this nature.

And I don't know how, what to do

in nature, man.

It's, it's overwhelming for me.

So I'm always trying to like create something

out of, uh, I don't know.

It's something, something else, you know?

And it's not to be intelligent or wise

guy.

It's just like, okay, let's see what, what's

new here.

You know?

Uh, like for me, it's, it's, it's hard

to, to see beauty in nature.

So I remember years ago we did something

together and I remember you saying, you look

at a scene as like shapes, right?

Like triangle, square, circle, and how that works

together.

Are you still doing that?

Is it something you still do like consciously

or use this now because you've been doing

it for so long subconsciously?

That's the way you see things.

Yeah.

Like I, I, I had to work hard

to get my images.

So, so yes, if there's like a cloud

and then like a, like, like the blue

sky and then another cloud, it's still in

consideration.

I'm going, I'm going to post the couple

or in the middle or one of each

in, in, like one, uh, in, in one

cloud and the other, you know, like, but

it's, it's an obsession and sometimes it's hard

to like to get the flow of a

session because I start to, to photograph on

the, from the background to the foreground and

I know I have to, I have to

break that.

It's, it's like, oh, here it comes again,

man.

The, the, how to say the OCD guy

or the, yeah, the obsessive compulsive dude, man.

So, so yeah, nowadays I think I'm, I'm

more aware of, okay, I do my shit

and then in between I keep shooting to

get like the transitional shots.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I tried to mix it, but, but

I have, I have to push myself to

get the, just watch from here to here

and it's not natural for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like, yeah, I know like the

in between stuff for me is like, lately

I've really been gravitating towards some of my

favorite images.

Not that I've been shooting a ton, but

when I'm shooting is, is the in between,

like, you know, you set them up, you

do your thing.

But I find when couples, for me personally,

like my couples, there's that pose, you know,

you get the nice light and the hair's

blowing and all that stuff.

But then it's like, okay, we're good.

And we're leave.

And he turns and he walks away with

her hand and they're not thinking about posing,

but they're still within like that half a

second.

It's almost like the chicken with his head

cut off.

It will still run around for a couple

seconds.

Like it's that to me is like that

in between moment after a pose, they're still

subconsciously posing, but they're not thinking about it

as they move.

And it's lately it's that movement right after

that.

I'm like, shit, that's it.

You know, so I really over the last

probably year or two consciously kept the camera

here after I say I'm done.

Whereas before I'd be like, okay, we're done.

And I'd walk.

Right.

And then I'd see it every time.

And the second you see it, it's too

late.

Right.

If you say hold that, they're like, oh,

hold what?

And they move.

And I feel like over the last few

years, it's been this very conscious effort to

be like, pose it, get what I need

to get.

And then just say, okay, guys, we're good.

And just wait for it doesn't always happen,

obviously, but just to wait for that.

That magic second after a pose, that transition,

that movement, that natural, you know, sometimes they

just like drop hands and walk away like

they just fought, you know, and other times

they move and it's beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I truly envy like the new generations, like

the India era, man, or like the, I

forgot the names.

Well, you know, India, man, you know, like,

it's like, come on, it looks so easy.

Yeah.

But it makes you feel, you know, so

look, I gravitate about that.

There's this guy called John Dolan.

He's like an old school guy, but the

pictures he shared the most are like the

out of focus and the grainy.

He still shoots with his Leicas and like

Tri-X pushed, you know, and it's like,

yes, that's the feeling that sometimes I want

to remember that still feels beautiful, man.

Yeah.

And then I like, I don't know, you

have to be over yourself a lot of

times.

Yeah.

You know, because like people can applaud you.

Oh yeah, beautiful.

And you know, you have done that shit

for so long, you know, and it's like,

what's next?

What else do I have to try to

still feel the rush and see what else

I capture?

And so, yeah, I'm never satisfied, not even

with the location or even judging a couple,

man.

Even like, oh man, I hate the dress

or I hate the shoes or I hate

the location and you still have to deliver

your freaking special spice or whatever.

Yeah.

It's always a struggle.

It's not natural to create for me.

It's, I think, I know I've said this

before, you know, I feel like I'm so,

me personally, the way I look at myself,

I'm so not a creative person.

Like it's one of the reasons why I

got into photography because I love, I love

the creative art and I love the creative

mind and the process, but I'm not a

creative person.

I can't paint, draw, sing, you know, do

anything and even photography to me is like

very, you know, analytical when I look at

light.

I'm very much like, I know what this

light's doing and then everything after that feels

struggle to me, right?

I don't feel like I'm a creative person,

but it's, I think so many of us,

I know I talked with Jonas about this.

It's like, we spend so long trying to

find this voice and trying to find like

this style that you get it and you

get applause for it and you get praise

and all this stuff.

And everyone's like, oh, it's great.

And it's how do you do it?

And I think for me, I'm like, fuck,

it's just a picture.

Like, it's just, that's all it is.

Like, to me, it's like, it's so easy

to do, but then, you know, I don't

know if you feel the same way about

your work, but then, you know, for me,

when I look at your work and I

know so many other people, when they look

at your work, I look at your work

and I'm like, holy shit.

Like that's.

Yeah.

Because it's not the natural way you see.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

And I was meaning to ask this, like,

okay, from perspective to Gabe, there's a huge

difference, not quality wise, but you made like

a conscious decision to say, fuck the back

alleys, man.

And so do you remember, like, what inspired

you to say like, okay, no, this is

not my stuff.

Like, I'm just reproducing what's trendy right now.

And the second question will be, do you

think there's like a 3.0, like after

Gabe's Gabe's right now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, is there something else after this?

Yeah.

So I know when I switched from like

back alleys to what I do, I think

I remember getting a photo of a couple.

I think I've shown it at maybe a

workshop or two, but it's like, I was

placing this couple, we were shooting in an

indoor location because it was pouring out.

And I had two chairs set up against

the wall to backlit.

I was just like, they were just sitting

there probably about six feet apart, you know,

just like the Portland pose, like the hipster

pose down there.

And they were sitting, right?

They were just sitting.

And I was setting it up.

And he was sitting here, she was sitting

here.

And I was trying to figure out like

settings on how I'm going to over or

under whatever I was going to do.

And I got this photo of her looking

at him.

And the look, he was looking at the

camera because he was ready to go.

But as most guys are, they're like, I

just want to get this over with.

And she was looking at him.

And that look was like, I think we've

all had that.

We've either given that look to our partner.

We've seen our partner look at us.

We look at our kids the same way

where it's like that pure unconditional love where

it's like, I adore you.

It's not I love you.

It's like, I adore you.

And she, that moment, I captured that.

I remember going back home and it was

like, you know, I'm going through the photos

and I'm looking at all that like grungy,

whatever stuff.

And this photo of her looking at him,

I was like, wow, like that's something like

that is that right there.

How do I get more of that, but

bring people together?

Like, how do I make people see that

without seeing the eyes?

Because not everyone, you can't say, hey, look

at your partner adoringly.

They'd be like, what the fuck is that?

Right.

So I was like, how do I get

that into a connection?

And then from there, it just kind of

like trickled into like traveling and that type

of thing and playing more with light Matt.

But that was kind of like the catalyst

for the thing that made me change from

how can I follow the masses of back

alleys, you know, textures, how can I be

more like Josh, you know, all this stuff

to how can I make more of that?

Right.

How can I make photos that make not

only me feel something, but someone looking at

it.

That was the transition there.

But, and in terms of what's 3.0,

dude, I got to get through too.

Like I got, I gotta get, I gotta,

I gotta, I gotta get through the next

year.

Right.

So, but like I said, I feel like

I'm really some of my favorite images lately

are not the traditional Gabe connection.

Like more of the, you know, I've been

posting lately every like six photos, a couple

walking away from me hand in hand, but

more just, you know, there's like an energy

or a feeling in the photo that I

can't get from just two couple or a

couple standing beside each other.

I feel like I'm really looking more at

that, but saying that it's like when I,

you know, I think we all get those

moments when we shoot where something happens and

you're like, Oh, that's so good.

Like when a good light and a good

couple and a good location for me and

they have a beautiful connection, I'm like, this

is it.

This is why I do this.

Right.

Yeah.

Because it, it feels like cheating a lot

of times, not cheating, cheating.

I don't know how to, you know, it's

like, like, you know, you know, when you're

going to share like this doesn't have my

super signature stuff.

Right.

And then you still share it.

And you know, sometimes it happens to me.

Sometimes people, people write it down.

This is not like a fair image.

I don't know if it happens to you.

And it's like, yes, I want that.

I want that feeling.

I want to feel like, like I'm starting

all over again, but it's risky at the

same time.

No, it's like, Oh, come on, man.

Like, let's see what happens next.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I think, I know for the last

while I've become really, I don't know what

the word would be uncaring of what I

share.

You know, I know there's photos that I

have and like hard drives that will do

amazing on Instagram, but I'm like, I don't

really like it.

Like, I don't like, you know, some of

my photos recently have got the least amount

of likes that I've ever gotten, but I

really like the picture.

Like I really liked the lighting that I

love the lighting, like blue hour.

I love like blue light.

Like I love that light lately.

Right.

Like it's, so yeah, it, I think you,

you know, I think that's the kind of

the progression I think of a lot of

us is we start here super influenced by

everybody trying to create what everyone else is

creating.

Then you kind of go through years and

you kind of get into this style and

you kind of start repeating that and doing

that and you get known for that, which

is great.

You build a business on it and you

get to teach workshops and travel the world

for conventions about speaking about it.

It's, it's amazing.

But then you get to a point where

you're like, I don't really care about all

the praise anymore.

I just want to put out work that

makes me feel again, as I did when

I started getting a style.

Like, I think that's, you know, I think

for me, at least I kind of get

wrapped up at times and just putting out

work that people expect me to put out

and that clients expect me to put out,

you know, in the same warm tones and

that type of thing.

But it's like, I think the transition and

the 3.0 for, I think a lot

of people is, all right, I can do

that really simple now because it's almost like

autopilot.

Like, I don't have to really consciously think.

I see light.

I see this hit.

I know if I put a couple here

and his hand here and her head this

way and twist them so the light hits

them here and I shoot at 1.4

with a 50, I know what it's going

to look like a hundred percent of the

time, right?

I already know how it's going to edit,

right?

I think it's almost at times cheating, but

it's like, what can we do now to

get away from that where we don't know,

we don't know the outcome, like you shooting

flash, right?

It's like, it's that push.

It's that excitement.

It's that, well, this might not work, but

it's exciting.

Yeah.

It's like Dylan becoming and grabbing an electric

guitar.

It's like that era, man.

I've been resonating with that a lot.

Like after being like the super famous, I

don't know, folk guy, like he had the

balls to grab the electric guitar and see

what happened.

So yeah, it's funky, man.

I'm excited to see what's next, man.

Like I said, let me just get through

this and then if we come out on

the other side, we'll see what happens.

But again, I think it's cool that the

flash worked for you.

I know it was probably about six months

ago, last year, mid last year, I remember

thinking for me, I actually remember reaching out

to Lanny or Erica about a flash because

she wanted to take a workshop.

And I'm like, well, I want to learn

flash.

So maybe we can like trade, you know,

because it's the one thing for me, I

feel that I know the basis to get

through like a wedding, but I'd love to

get more creative on the flash side just

so I can have it in the bag.

I think that's for me, you know, the

biggest thing is it's the, I don't, I'd

like to have it in case.

And right now I don't have it.

Right.

So yeah, whatever.

Yeah.

I haven't used it on weddings.

It's more like, like, like studio or like

home studio stuff.

But yeah, I don't know if I want

to contaminate it, you know, like that much,

you know, so we'll see.

Okay.

So one of the other things I know

when I've talked with you, a big eye

opener for a lot of people is shooting

in black and white on your screen.

Are you still doing that?

Yeah, man.

Okay.

So yeah, I kind of know why you

do it, but why do you do it?

Okay.

Well, I think because I can be distracted

quite easily and I don't want to miss

moments changing the aisles on my camera, man.

Same as you that you use the aperture

priority stuff.

For me, like taking care of the white

balance while I'm shooting, it's just messy, man.

It's just weird to be fixing that instead

of capturing moments.

And at least for how I see things,

it's easier for me to see the geometry

as well and how the light keeps falling

into my subject.

And then it's just more like poetic per

se.

I don't know.

I love watching black and white movies, man.

They remove all the distractions in the world.

And I feel more like an artist when

I'm seeing everything in black and white.

And now with the mirrorless cameras that you

can totally see everything in black and white,

I fall in love with that.

Yeah, yeah.

And are you shooting Sony now?

Right now I'm shooting Sony, yes.

And are you happy with it?

I'm happy.

I don't know.

Sometimes they feel like robots, you know, like

too many dials to press and stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

But I think they help.

I have never been quite technical.

I think that's why Flash scares me.

So if you allow yourself with any camera,

I think, to customize it, to react to

the ways you pre-visualize or you think,

I think it's amazing.

But at the same time, it's scary.

I don't read manuals, man.

I hate menus on cameras.

So I just remember the first wedding, I

shot all Sony and leaving the Nikons behind.

I was just like, holy, okay, this is

it.

Let's see what happens.

You know, I felt so unsecure, man.

I usually shoot like 10K and above.

And for that wedding, I shot almost 20

because I wasn't sure.

Yeah.

You know, it's funny that it's scary.

The grip is not the best.

Yeah.

On the Sony?

Yeah.

The grip, it's not.

Well, you have little baby hands, so it

should be.

I know.

You can make hands.

Yeah, it's, yeah.

I don't know.

I, yeah.

The gear, I think is, yeah.

I don't know.

Gear, I think that's one of the reasons

why I haven't switched to mirrorless because I

don't want it to feel so robotic.

I don't want it to feel so clinical.

You know, it's actually one of the reasons

why I switched.

I loved my, when I shot Nikon, I

loved my D5s, but I hated my D5s.

I remember, man.

They were too good.

Like, they were like, there was no what

ifs when I went to a wedding.

And there's part of me that loves the

what if, right?

There's part of me that takes, you know,

it pushes me more when I don't know

what's going to happen, you know, that I

have to consciously really think about how am

I going to shoot this, right?

Whereas the D5s were so perfect.

You could focus in any light.

You could shoot at 25,000 ISO and

it just captured it at like 30 frames

a second and it didn't matter.

Like it just, you know, one bat, like

it was just, it was too good.

I think that's one of the, I'm curious

about the mirrorless, but I'm hesitant in terms

of like, it's why I, you know, I

think a lot of people like to shoot

Leica cameras, right?

Because there's something different about shooting a camera

as opposed to shooting.

Yeah, it feels mechanical.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I still have the Q, man.

I remember you had it and the pictures

you shared were freaking amazing, man.

And I wanted to see more, man, but

it has its limitations as well.

So like you want it to, to make

you work harder, but not be like a

roadblock, right?

So.

Yes.

Yeah.

I think Leica is there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just the roadblock is the price of

Leica.

I think that's the roadblock.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Okay.

So couples, when you shoot couples, are you,

how do you, I've seen you work in

person, but how would you explain how you

get couples to relax?

Or do you just let them be weird

and just shoot that way?

Yeah.

I think, first of all, I open to

them like, like while we're driving to the

location or if we have like a, like

a coffee or something.

Yeah.

I want them to meet me.

I want them to see, this guy's weird,

like, yeah, I don't want them to, I

don't want to impress them that that's the

right word.

I want them to see that I'm going

to fail, that I'm going to fail hard,

that there's a, like a sensibility, not an

emotional sensibility, but that I have a passion

to the things I do.

Yeah.

So after, after I make that connection, I

try to, to make like some like sex

jokes, like about like my life, you know,

you know, yes, because I want.

Okay.

So let me ask you this.

Let me just stop you.

Do you feel, so I feel you get

away with this stuff because of who you

are, your accent, your personality, you know, fair.

If I went to a coffee shop, you

know, as this big, overweight, bald Canadian, and

I started making jokes about sex, people would

be like, I'm fucking out of here.

This guy's a weirdo.

Right.

So you, I, you know, I, do you

feel like you have, like, it's, it works

I think, because it's you.

Yeah.

I think, I think I want to have

an idea of what's the, like the, the

top, the limit that I can get with

them.

Yeah.

So if, if I see if it's not

working, okay, I'm going to tone it down.

You know, but yeah, but yeah, it's more

about that.

I want them to feel relaxed.

I want them to feel at ease.

Like, yeah, this guy has a camera.

He's, he's weird.

He's going to photograph us.

Right.

He, he's a, he's a family man.

He, he's not, he's not a threat.

You know, like I'm never, I'm never, I'm

never going to be like the best looking

person in, like, in, I'm never going to

be a predator to them.

Yeah.

You know, I, I want them to feel

that like, yeah, these guys, yeah.

He's like the weird guy from, from, from,

from high school, but he's, he's, he's that

guy, you know?

Do you think, do you think your website

gets that across?

Like, do you think, do you think they're

feeling that before they actually meet you in

person?

No, I don't think so.

I think, I think it happens to you

at the same time.

I think that our, our websites feel more

like we're going to get there and we're

going to have like a goatee, you know,

and we're going to use like a jacket

and we're going to have like, like not

a poncho or like a hoodie.

I'm talking to you, man.

So, so, so when they see that, they're

like, okay, okay, so who are you?

Are you the assistant?

You know, we don't have like smoke bombs

and then like lasers.

So, so I want them to be confused,

you know, because I think that's life, man.

You know, like I, I don't want them

to consider me like the, the yeah, yeah,

there's, there's a big possibility that I am

going to fail and I want them to

be part of that process.

Yeah.

You know, and, and I remember like getting

that when I was doing the, the, the

copy for my website, I don't want to

be like the expert.

So, so I want to scare as many

traditional couples as possible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and that's where I, where we grab

the sensibility and on, on, on the website,

I don't show a lot of smiles and

I don't show a lot of love or

what normal love represents.

So yeah, it's, it's, it's a weird risk,

but I don't know.

I, I, I wanted to, to be like

that.

I don't want it to be like, yeah,

the, the formula guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's yeah.

Well, I think it's so true.

I think it's one of those, again, I

think that comes from experience, but I do

think like when you put out stuff that

will weed out, I guess, you know, you

want people to come to your website, you

know, and see, you know, if someone comes

to your website and they want very like

controlled, you know, traditional, normal photographer photos, that

type of thing, they'll look at it and

be like, all right, next, you know, it's

one of, you know, for me, it's the

same thing.

Like I want clients to come to my

website and see like really bad storms, crazy

clouds, windy, you know what I mean?

Like I don't want people to have perfect

environments to get a perfect connection.

And I think putting that out there as

a way to visually distance yourself from people

who don't line up with you visually is

the way it should be done.

Right?

I don't think we don't need to put

out there and please everyone.

And I think people who do it really

well, all do the same thing, right?

Like everyone kind of has their thing that

they want and the client.

And if you put it out there as

a specific type, you know, it doesn't have

to be, you want every client to be

5'11, blonde and good looking.

And that's the only thing you put out

there, but you can put out stuff that

will definitely weed out people that you don't

want to work with.

Yes.

And it's being super honest.

It's like saying, okay, yeah, I love your

work, but I don't see like Cici and

me in your pictures.

Yeah.

And I know that you and Jenna will

be like freaking weirdos if I photograph you

my way.

And we have to be like that.

We have to make peace with like what

wedding photography represents, uh, for individuals.

Yeah.

And that, that's why I have, uh, denied

like judging in all these conventions or, or,

or like, uh, how to say websites.

Yeah.

And, and, and I'm not participating in those

because I don't, I don't agree that, that

every photographer has to look and feel the

same way.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I do sometimes I've

done, like, I remember teaching at a photo

photography farm with Lisa and I do like

half a day of portfolio reviews.

And it was always one of those things

where it's like, I always started out the

portfolio review with, I'm not going to base

my decision.

I'm not going to review your work because

it's like what you think is good.

And what I think is good.

That's one of the amazing things about art

is it's so subjective, right?

I can't look at that photo and be

like, that's a bad photo.

You should shoot it two steps underexposed with

side light and get wind blowing.

You know, that's not for everyone.

Right.

So I do feel like, you know, yeah,

you need to kind of grow into this

thing where it's like, you don't need to

please everyone.

Right.

It's not, you know, I've always that expression,

the masses are asses.

Like it's not, you don't want to be,

you know, unless some people do, but to

me, I think most of us don't want

to be the Walmart of photography.

Like we don't want to do everything.

We want to do one thing or a

style or a feeling or whatever it is

well to attract clients and then give you

that opportunity where they're like, well, yeah, I'll,

I'll lie down on a brick wall and

you can stand above me and shoot, or

yeah, I'll go hike that cliff and like

a monsoon rainstorm in the wind.

Right.

That's, you know, if you can create a

visual, it will definitely make your job easier.

I think, you know, getting your couples to

do the things that trust you.

So yeah.

And I think that's why when, when, when

we meet other photographers in conventions and like

in between speakers, you don't have to like

their stuff, but it's respect, you know, respect

because, because you have the cojones, man, to,

to do it your way.

And you, you've been to the, to the

Ferris wheel and you have tried and you

have succeeded and then you have failed and

you know that there's more than one chance

to repeat.

Yeah.

And that's what I love when, when, when,

when I'm talking with other photographers, I love

that.

I want to know how they envision their

stuff and not to emulate them, but to

see like, wow, I love that we can

have the same camera, the same lens and

your sensibility is going to guide you to

one way.

Yeah.

And, and, and I love that, man.

Like, and I feel the pressure as well.

Like the workshops that we have done together

is like, I see the back of your

camera and I'm like, now what man?

Now what?

And then it's like, it's like a, like,

like a rap.

How do you say like the, when they're

like fighting it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like, okay, let's see, let's see what

I have.

And it's not because I want to kick

your ass.

It's more about, okay, let's, let's bring another

perspective into the same location and the same

couple.

And, and I love that feeling, man.

I think that was one, you know, to

be honest, I think that was why I

love doing workshops with you because A, we

got to hang out and it was fun

and we laughed and all that stuff.

But I think it was, if I could

take myself out of, you know, the, you

know, the teacher and look at it from

like an attendee perspective, we shoot so differently

to give people or to see, I don't

even, I learned, but to give people that

opportunity to see there's no right way to

do this.

There's just your way, right?

Like the way you see it and the

way I see the exact same thing, the

last workshop we did at Canmore with those

two poles, like it couldn't have been more

different, but it was literally within minutes of

each other with the same couple, same location,

same light, same everything.

And I think that is something that I

think a lot of us, or a lot

of people miss or take a long time

to get to is creating work that is

them, like to be honest with yourself and

be like, I love Farrah's work, but I'm

not Farrah, right?

I love Jonas's work, but I'm not Jonas.

I love Flanagan's work, but I'm not Sean.

You know, like, I think we all try

to like, we gravitate towards it and then

we try to emulate it and then we

get down on ourselves because we can't, because

we're not them, right?

We don't do it as good as them.

And I think that's where this self-doubt,

a lot of people then jump ship and

they go to, they try to copy Sean,

they can't.

Then they try to copy Benj and they

can't.

Then they try to copy, you know, this,

and then it's like, well, shit, maybe it's

not the photographer.

Maybe I need to buy new gear.

Maybe because Jonas is shooting Fuji.

Maybe it's just, I need to buy Fuji

gear, right?

And then we start chasing gear, right?

And then we start getting down on our

couples because our couples don't look like Indians,

right?

Like, I think this is this weird thing

where we're always, I think a lot of

us go through it.

I think we still go through it.

I myself go through it.

I look at work and I'm like, shit.

I'm like, that is so incredible.

I just, Nirav just posted those portraits that

he did through like FaceTime and I looked

at him and I'm like, fuck me.

I'm like, Jesus, like these are so beautiful,

right?

But it's, I think some of the most

successful photographers, personally, I think not, maybe not

financially successful, but just creating beautiful work.

It's because their work is a gen, a

true reflection of who they are, right?

Like, you know, Jonas's work is Jonas.

Sean's work is very much Sean.

If you've, you've met Sean, his work is

a very replicated, you know, of who he

is, right?

Nirav, quiet, calm, his work's very quiet and

calm.

You know, your work, you're, I always say

you're quirky, you're different, you're creative and your

work's very much like that, right?

So I think that is where I think

a lot of us need to strive to

or continue to strive to is to create

work that's you as opposed to create work

that's everyone else.

And I think that's where we take a

long time to get there, right?

And even when we get there, we're still

kind of chasing.

Doubting, right?

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's, it's just having the patience

as well, because it's quite stupid to, to

be 40 something and live out of a

freaking black box, man.

And I'm trying to see that it's more

than just providing a service.

So yeah, there's a lot of like credibility

or I will be, it will be more

like a craziness, man.

You know, like, like, like to be able

that, that that's enough to have a decent

life.

And, and, and, and that self-doubt, what

better to do it your own way?

And after you emulate 10,000 photographers, okay,

to be totally honest and say, okay, this

is, this is my time.

And, and for me, I always share this,

that, that my style was based of, out

of a lot of my friends that we,

we taught a workshop here in Mexico.

And I have this picture and then I

had the, how to say, like humbleness to

ask them, hey guys, I really like this

picture.

What can I do to it to make

it a little bit better?

Yeah.

And, and so the clip, the click was

mine, but I allow others that they know

me as well.

Yeah.

To, to, to tear it down and help

me build from there.

Yeah.

And, and, and I always say my, my

work represents the mix of all my heroes

and the push of my friends.

Yeah.

You know, so, so it's, it's, it's, it's

a mix.

It's not, it's not me.

It's not original.

It's not, I just have had the, the,

the effort and the willingness to, to repeat,

analyze, cry, and then learn from my mistakes

and then go back and try, try to

do it a bit better.

Yeah.

And I think that, that I think is

that something that a lot of people, you

know, I don't know.

I think it's, I think it's society now.

I think it's the world we live in,

but I do feel genuinely that no one

really wants to put the time in anymore.

Everyone wants instant gratification, right?

They want, you know, they want it, they

want it now, or they want it yesterday,

right?

They're like, well, I just started shooting last

year.

Why can I create this?

And why can I travel the world and

make a living to support a family?

It's like, well, everyone I know who creates

incredible work that's super creative and honest and

real, they've been doing it for years.

Like they really, you know, I would say

most of them have been doing it for

seven, eight, nine, 10, 12, 13 years or

more where it's like, we've been creating shit

for years.

And then we just got honest with ourself

and really started to focus in and put

the time in.

I do feel like so many people, and

it's not, you know, it's not a, it

is an individual issue, but I think it's

like a generalized world issue.

No one wants to put time in.

No one wants to put the effort in.

I know you've talked about it, you know,

about picking up your camera more so than

just on the weekend, right?

No one wants to, people want to experiment

on Saturday, right?

They don't want to screw around on Monday,

right?

Or Tuesday.

I mean, you know, I'm at fault for

that sometimes, but I also spent years where

I would shoot everything.

Like my camera, you know, you look at,

I'll never forget every time I see Ben

Crisman, he has a freaking camera around his

neck.

Yeah, that's true.

Every time.

Vegas, you're at a nightclub, Ben has a

Fuji hanging around his neck.

Like it's, you know, and it is, you

know, you're the same.

You carry that, you know, you carry that

like a cue around so many places.

So it is, I think, you know, time

and honesty, I think is really, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And a lot of times I think that

like people, I would say, acknowledge your style

before you.

You know, like, I think you have to

keep walking and doubting, but never stop walking,

man.

Like Johnny Walker, you know, like, you just

have to, let's see, man.

Like I have like 1% of the

jigsaw puzzle.

Let's keep going, man.

Awesome.

Beautiful.

Nice work.

Just start to keep walking and yeah, whatever,

man.

I just need to practice.

It's, yeah.

No one has like a six abs without

going to the gym, man.

So.

No, I think it's, I think self-doubt

is the biggest motivator for so many incredible

artists.

I think some of the most beautiful photos

or images or whatever type of art you

want to look at come from people who

are never happy or satisfied with what they're

creating.

As soon as you become satisfied, then you

become complacent.

As soon as you become complacent, you're just

like, it turns into a formula.

And again, I think that's a huge thing.

Everyone that I've talked to and met over

the last, you know, 15 years who I

really think is incredible at what they do,

they all don't think they're incredible at what

they do.

Like it's a very common, like very humble

about it.

They don't have ego.

They're just like, yeah, I do it and

I want to get better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And teaching as well keeps you on your

tiptoes as well.

Like you can discover new talent.

You can learn from older and newer generations

and like everything has to be like a

whole.

It's not like, yeah, because I started first,

you have to respect me.

No dude.

Like I want to learn from you.

Like, yeah.

So it becomes like this, I don't know,

this buffalo of madness that you have to

be willing to hear.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you're on the top and you're just

stop hearing from your friends.

Yeah.

You're gonna, you're gonna, you're not gonna stay

there for long.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's true.

I think that's hardest thing is, you know,

you get to the top or you get

the recognition that I think we all strive

for when we start, we all want to

be known and appreciated by our peers.

But then once you get that, you quickly

realize that it's like, yeah, it doesn't really,

you know, it's like, nothing that doesn't sound

any better.

You know, you just put more pressure on

yourself because you have more eyes on you.

Right.

But I think it's the constant.

I honestly, I think self-doubt is a

huge thing.

I do.

I, it's, you know, I'm sure there's psychologists

out there that say that's not good, but

I do think that self-doubt in your

art is a huge indicator that you're willing

to put in the work and the time

and you'll have longevity.

Because I feel like, I don't know if

a lot of people will have longevity in

this anymore because I think everyone wants it

instant.

I feel like that people that do have

self-doubt and want to put in the

work, because I think that's how you get

to do it for so long, how you

can build a career and support a family

with this little thing that everybody can use.

Like I always say, we're not brain surgeons.

Like really everybody can do the same thing

we do.

Without doubt.

Right.

Everyone can buy a camera at Best Buy

and get a website for a hundred bucks

and go create a business.

It's how, how can you create something that

people want?

Right.

I think second street charges a hundred bucks,

right?

I think so.

Well, I think I, yeah, it's 50 bucks

for a little website.

Yeah.

Ryan's going to love this.

No, I'm talking about that as well, man.

I think like once people recognize you as

a master, that's when you become a student

again.

Yeah.

You know, because you enter this other league

and you'll be so stupid if you think

that you're better than anyone else, man.

That's when you open your freaking ears, like

double or triple, like Dumbo, man.

And you're like, bring it on, man.

Bring it on.

Yeah.

It's what I would say.

It's one of the reasons when I was

teaching conferences a lot, like two or three

times a year, I would sit and just

watch everybody speak.

It wasn't, you know, it was like, I'd

usually miss the person right before me because

I was usually so nervous, like, but it

was like, I would sit and watch because

it's like, I a hundred percent.

I think once you stop taking in information

that can either create more self-doubt or

create better images for yourself, I think then

really there's no more learning.

And then it becomes boring and then you

get burnt out and then it's like, it's

done.

Right.

And it's like, well, what am I going

to do?

Right.

But if you're constantly open to new things

and seeing things in a new way and

trying new things and, you know, flash work

or people were doing FaceTime portraits over the

beginning of the pandemic, like just pushing it.

You know, I do, I agree with you

a hundred percent.

It's like, get to where you want to

get to.

I think everyone who I know who's been

to that top where we've got on that

speaking circuit and we get the likes and

the admiration, I think we can all agree

that it's not as great as what everyone,

you think it's going to be.

It really doesn't change anything.

It just, I feel either makes you complacent

or it's going to push you more.

And it's really, you know, depends on what

you want to go.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Beautiful, man.

Beautiful.

Who knows?

Yeah.

And who knows?

That's it, man.

That's it.

Yeah.

So many, so many ways to do the

same stuff, man.

Like I was telling you, like after 14

years, I'm taking like a business class after

14 freaking years.

So yeah.

Always the things to learn.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

I agree, man.

Well, I think it's, I don't know.

I feel like we could probably talk for

like three hours and people would be like,

okay, you guys need to stop.

So it's like enough of my face.

Yeah.

Well, I think it's good.

I think.

Yeah.

I appreciate talking.

I appreciate.

No, man.

Always, man.

It's always nurturing, man.

You're like my grandmother, man.

Great, great grandmother.

Yeah, man.

Full of wisdom.

Full of wisdom.

Yeah.

Well, full of something.

Yeah.