Original subtitles

if I'm easily offended I'm easily manipulated so if you are that person

where you are reactive reactive reactive rule number one shut the up cuz if

you're looking to be respected you need to manage yourself but there are times

that people are going to cross you and disrespect you well how do you deal with

it so there is a guy post it's talked to the intelligence communities and it

really really helps when you're dealing with people and so one of the ways you

deal with that kind of behavior is every the former secret service agent turned

human behavior expert from protecting presidents to interrogating the world's

most dangerous men she now teaches people how to develop mental strength

and persuasive communication skills how did they train you as a secret service

agent to have that strong mental Foundation that you have there's a lot

of things so first one of the biggest things that holds people back is the

idea that I'm special you're not that special for example I was one of the

First Responders out 9/11 I watched thousands of people die and one of the

things that got me through it was understanding I wasn't alone in it and

when you learned that you can get through anything when you tell yourself

nobody knows what I'm going through nobody can help you cuz it's just you

going through it now the next thing what's most important is this tool that

we don't pay attention to our body and there's this study where they started

recording people walking then they laid it to convicted felons and they said to

them who would you pick as prey they all picked the same people they were so

there are simple things you can do with your hands your voice how you sit and I

will tell you everything but also the other thing that's actually interesting

which you didn't ask but I will volunteer this information are the

strategies to tell if somebody's being truthful or not and it's that's Li

detection 101 this has always blown my mind a little

bit 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the

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your feedback we'll find the guest that you want me to speak to and we'll

continue to do what we do thank you so much

Evie pomus when you think about the books that you've written the content

you produce and all that you're fundamentally doing for people in your

own words how do you summarize or Define that what is it that you think you're

doing for people with the content the books you've written Etc it's a great

question and I don't know if I have a clear answer I think always I think

about how am I serving other people I always go back to that I remember even

when I wrote my book becoming bulletproof actually my book was

supposed to launch right at the height of covid I mean it's when the world was

shutting down and I remember I had a PR person I my agent uh the Publishers

everyone's like hey you know this covid thing is happening all the media tour

glits went away why don't we postpone the launch of the book and nobody was

advising me to launch the book nobody everyone's like Drop don't do it don't

do it and I remember I was like all right I need to kind of tune everybody

out and I I paused and I I thought to myself why did I write this book I wrote

this book to help people okay so if the goal is to help people make them more

resilient help them live less fearlessly the world right now is in a state of

fear so if I follow that principle then right now I should launch the

book and I remember against everybody's advisement I launched it and when you

get DMS from people and private messages what is it the essence of what they're

coming to you for so I was surprised with my book

where people began writing in I'm dealing with this problem your book

helped me find a way out or I'm dealing with this can you

give me guidance on how to deal with it what is the essence of what they're

struggling with it's always themselves it's not the it's not the world around

you I get it to some extent but it's almost always where the

problem we either sabotage ourselves we get in the way we make decisions or we

think I didn't do anything everything's cause an effect anytime you say do act

or don't act it has a consequence or an effect to it and I think sometimes we're

so blasé about it in the Western World the science shows that we actually

downplay our faults when we make a mistake it's not that big of it a deal

we downplay our stuff and we actually lift up our positive attributes it's

okay but to a point because when you downplay things and you downplay your

involvement you downplay your choices you downplay what role you play in your

life then you can't you you really are essentially poweress and you're you're

blaming the world and I'm not saying that other people can't harm you they

will they just will I think if people made peace with the fact that they're

actors out there some I know some I don't know and in pursuit of their

self-interest people are going to make choices that hurt me period bar on the

end if you can live with that and understand that you will be okay because

you just have more awareness in fact in the when I did polygraphs the interview

room after I interviewed so many people and typically I would interview suspects

um people that we suspected committing a crime so lie detector tests lie detector

test but I was a lie detector not the machine a lot of people think you hook

that thing up oh ping they're lying no like you sit there you assess people you

read people what the polycraft does is it tells you when you ask a series of

questions to this person I hook Steven up I ask him a series of several

questions I look to see what step's autonomic nervous system is doing

heartbeat right does that change your electrodermal activity how much you

sweat you're breathing the way you breathe so that's why you have the blood

pressure cuff you have the electrodermal plates which actually look at sweating

you won't it's imperceptible to you but the plates will pick up sweating the

sweating activity the change in breathing so if I'm asking you a series

of questions I'm looking at how your body deviates during those questions uh

you even have sensors cuz sometimes people try to beat the polygraph and so

there's sensor pads that we have to see if they're doing certain movements or

not I personally don't think you can beat it

but again the test itself means nothing you can't take it to court you can't say

judge they fil their polygraph that's not what it's there for it's there to

get more information and look who are you if

you're lying who are you really in Judgment of yourself that's why your

body is reacting a second ago you talked about how victims stay victims and this

whole idea of becoming a bulletproof person because regardless of what we do

in our lives bad things going to happen we're going to encounter narcissists and

people that are looking to take advantage of us there's a certain mental

fortitude that you exude you you exude a certain type of mental resilience and

strength what is the found you know and I think that's really critical because

if you have that strong internal

Foundation then all everything else we're probably going to talk about today

becomes much easier and possible but without that like strong Foundation when

the wind blows the house Falls over so if we think about step one in building

that strong mental fortitude Foundation that you have where does one begin and

especially if we're beginning from a very very bad place we're beginning from

a place of victimhood bad things have happened we're not the most confident

person it starts with who's around you that's where it starts if you have

people around you anybody can break victimhood like anybody can you can so I

want to put that out there just because you're locked in the place doesn't mean

you have to stay in there you can but usually you're if you're locked in

somewhere it's because the system you have around you that you also help

create and perpetuate to some degree we're not completely innocent we play a

role the system that is built around you keeps you think of it this way it keeps

you in jail so you have to look at your

environment and say what about my environment is keeping me here usually

it's a person or people hopefully it's one and you're not dealing with multiple

now it can be family and that's where you know some when you deal with

children and you deal with certain you know crimes and

abuse I I I you know I always feel like the one population of people that truly

have an like I don't want to say excuse but you it's really not their fault are

kids because there's just so vulnerable and like they rely on you for their

their livelihood they need somebody to feed them clothe them take care of them

or they can't survive however if as you age right as you mature it's looking at

your environment who's around me and who is keeping me here who it and you know

what becomes hard it becomes hard because you'll have a let's say uh I

don't I I'm going to use this term bad actor in your life that bad actor can be

Mom Dad sibling brother it can be anybody you can love that bad

actor but the choices and the things that that person does impacts you it

makes you more vulnerable even if when you look at even if you just look at

crime well they did they've done a lot of different studies and what they found

is even let's say if I don't commit crime but I'm around other people who

commit crime I am more likely to be shot than any other population of people I

could not be involved in any nefarious activity at all I could be clean but

simply because of who I associate with that makes me more vulnerable to being

uh to becoming a victim so that's what where you start who's around you now

other really important things whoever you pick for your companion if you have

one it's huge that companion is either going to raise you up or they're going

to sink your ship down and is that in the real world best friends husbands

wives if we're talking I would say first intimate partner whatever that is to you

husband wife boyfriend girlfriend whatever that is companion that's number

one because that's the person here's the difference between a a like a partner

and a a friend your friend goes home to their home you go to your home a

companion or partner you probably live with them that means you are so overly

exposed to that person and you need to make Dam am well sure that that person

is not contaminating your life you can still love them but you can step back

and look at there's a problem here that this person's stuff is contaminating my

life and it's a hard thing to do for folks because this is why you're with

someone it's like okay I'm with Evie but you know Evie is this and Evie is that

and so you start to blend my identity with my behavior and then over the time

too you normalize the things I do if I'm a bad actor well Evie didn't mean it

she's always hotheaded you know she's this but she did all these nice things

for me here and then what we do is we miss stuff that's why it's easier for

you to look at somebody else's relationship and be like hey problem

here problem here problem here because you are not

tainted by the emotional aspect of being tied to that person you're able to look

at them objectively this is why byon it's easy to give other people advice I

can see the red flags in the issues in this person when you're in it you can't

it's hard so I would also venture to say people may not like this if you're with

someone and there are people around you that you know legitimately care and love

you and they're telling you hey not the best thing for you I would say please

listen because they are seeing something that you might not be seeing do you

think people just tend to know like in their gut they tend to know but they

justify the person's behavior and they almost kind of Gaslight themselves to

some degree they say well maybe not maybe that's fine maybe they are a

friend maybe they they're just doing that for my best interest whereas really

that bad actor is acting in their interests and kind of gaslighting you

and then you're gaslighting yourself I think

it's one thing is you don't you don't go from zero to 100 overnight when you're

in a relationship or you're with around people who are like that in in the

beginning you don't see it right everyone's got their best Behavior but

over time you'll start to see little like sneak peeks little

previews and it's those previews you want to pay attention to we like to give

people the benefit of the doubt we listen to the excuses that they give us

and you know there's this ancient Greek saying that says don't listen to your

opponent look at them it will tell you everything and when I say look at them

look at what people do I need you to drum out what they're telling you I I

need you to drum out their I am sorries because they probably are they've hurt

you and they are probably genuinely sorry that's not the point the point is

when do you want to learn your lesson in the beginning or at the end and at the

end sometimes it's very very very hard you know I have a community and I

started after I did the book and when people started writing in I said you

know what let me do this community I'll call it Beyond bulletproof and whoever

signs up and it you know two years in have 800 members and we a lot of people

come in with different scenarios and they'll come in with and it's almost

always the scenario they come in with if there's something like this it's

somebody that they're tied to that's just sinking them sinking them

and sometimes they're the Sinker and they think it's the other

person so sometimes you're the bad actor and you don't even realize it so you

need to figure out two things am I the one doing things that's not

just hurting myself but other people but I've Justified it to

myself in pursuit of whatever self-interest I have or am I tied to

someone who's pulling me down I'm going to tell you something Stephen I sat

across people who did a lot of different things some serious crimes some not so

serious every single person sold it to themsel why they did what they

did we're sellers I can justify anything too myself if I want to they were

turning themselves into I guess victims of situations why I do that well you

know good people make bad choices good people make mistakes the problem is

sometimes the consequences of those mistakes they last but you can't vouch

for anybody cuz you don't know who people are behind closed doors you don't

and two anybody is capable of anything at any given moment in time if given the

opportunity if if you understand that you will not be

surprised or shocked by anything or anyone it's not that it's a morbid view

of people it's understanding people are malleable they're susceptible some more

than others some may have a either stronger Integrity or more I don't even

think it's Integrity it's just a stronger hold on themselves to say yes I

won't do this no I won't do this um and then some people are a bit more

malleable like it's easier to get to them it's e EAS e to manipulate them

it's easier to mold them to do other things it's easier to get them to sway

in a Direction but if you understand that

then you you understand human behavior there's so many things of interest there

I remember if we go back to the top of your point around your environment and

people having a huge impact on your life I remember reading a study by a guy

called Michael hman and another study done done at Harvard University where

they showed that even if at work you sit next to someone who is toxic and does

like bad practice I at work your chance of doing bad practice yourself radically

increases and in some cases that's by 25% and in other environments that's up

to 100% your your probability of then getting a disciplinary against you just

because you sat next to that person radically increases and this is I think

reinforce is the case that your environment is has such a powerful and

profound impact on You For Better or For Worse and I think the for better part is

also worth pausing on because if you're sitting with and you're around people

that are lifting you and elevating you and making you believe that the world is

valuable and you can do anything as I've experienced in my own life at times it's

crazy that that almost like rewies the neurons in your brain to some degree how

do you pick people like how do you differentiate on your own who's good and

who's not for you you know what this is a really interesting

question Vibes and everything else in my life I'll tell you data science or this

or here's my framework but there's some things in life which I think your

intuition and your Vibes if you've developed the skill of tuning in enough

is the best indicator and if you if you look back through my career at 18

dropping out of University even at 60 not going to school 20 leaving a

business that was going really well and then at 27 quitting a business that was

all over the world and about to do this major second IPO all this stuff in all

of those moments the most important thing wasn't my prefrontal cortex it

wasn't logic or facts or figures or the money it was purely this feeling inside

me that I no longer wanted to do this thing because it didn't feel good

anymore and in the moment you look insane but when you zoom out on a

person's life who is driven by that voice inside like really driven by it

you go oh my God what a life that they have amazing look at look at the

girlfriend they have and the place they live and the stuff they have and the job

they have they're so lucky but I actually think it starts with that like

courage to tune into that voice inside so that's my answer it's just pure Vibes

people for me are vi just don't feel good don't want to go and then careers

I've had as the year where I go I don't like doing this anymore that's that's me

done and there's another part which is on the

other end of that is uncertainty because in all those situations there was really

no plan B there was no good plan B that's so interesting so when you talk

about Vibes it's your intuition yeah it's your instinct I'm Bar None and it's

when when I'm around people like anybody around they give off something and what

we don't do is we don't listen to what we feel you can still do business or

talk to someone but when you feel that and I do too I feel my way even honestly

even whose podcast I'm going to do I'm like I don't know if I like this

Vibe or I don't know if I like this I just feel it I feel like who do I want

to be around and even something like whose podcast do I want to be

on because it's I'm bringing myself into a space right mhm that person's space

it's like it's all it's all interconnected so it's like I'm choosing

what's spaces to go into and if you're right if it you don't have to articulate

it to yourself and that's where we go wrong often because it's like somebody

comes in they say hi to you and immediately you're like I just I don't

like this but they didn't say anything to you they didn't do anything to you

you can't articulate why and you know what we do we dismiss it we dismiss it

oh it's me oh I shouldn't this no it's you know what it's you're you've got two

brains right this one and the gut that's what they call it the your gut instincts

listen to it always and I think going back to people who are steady you're

talking about what makes you steady I think a big part of what helps make you

steady is trusting in yourself you have to trust in yourself like believe in

yourself and when I say that I mean trust that what you're

feeling is is is true like listen to it and not let other people talk you out of

things or being able to say I feel this way I

don't know why but I'm going to trust it and almost if not all the time you look

back it's like I knew better I felt this I kind of sensed this I didn't listen to

myself and if you're wrong so you're wrong and that goes back to uncertainty

people are afraid to be wrong why because of what other people

might say about me because how I will look to the world and

you know from there from that conclusion you then jump to and then they will

reject me and then I'll be alone and then I'll be lonely then I'll die that's

kind of like The Logical the downward step I always find that interesting I

had this conversation with my girlfriend yesterday which is it's interesting how

one belief is actually connected to like a string of Downstream beliefs that then

go to he doesn't love me and this is such a random tangent but me and my

girlfriend were like scheduling our calendar for the future that we're going

to be a part for a little while so um she wanted to like schedule the dates

and I was really busy with something and so I wasn't like paying as much

attention to the scheduling conversation and she got a little bit upset and I

found it so interesting cuz the fact that I was half paying attention to the

scheduling conversation actually told her that I'm not interested in her which

means I don't love her and and so afterwards I turned her and I said can

you explain to me like how I made you feel in that situation and I went why

why every time why why and we got right down there you don't love me and it all

started with this little thing at the top and I think the same here where if I

do something and it goes wrong there's like a downstream consequence in

someone's subconscious that leads them to

think then I'm going to be exiled from the tribe do you know what I mean that's

like at the root of it that's why I think fear you know when we you talk so

much about fear and becoming Fearless living fearlessly because I

don't think you can be Fearless okay living fearlessly what's the

distinction fearlessly means I see things despite being afraid

I'm going to try I'm going to do my best to like live in it right and embrace it

to some degree whatever you're afraid of if it's something you want to do follow

it and then figure out a way to to do it but it's okay to be afraid and uncertain

during the process I don't know when I'm uncertain too I'm thinking all right I

can figure this out you don't fail until you stop I I look at it that way like

even if you're failing incrementally overall you won't fail until you're just

like all right I'm done and as long as you're done cuz you want to be done

that's cool but you don't want to be done

because you keep failing or you're confused or you're you're you're leaving

because somebody other people are telling you shouldn't be doing it it's

just because you decided I don't want to be on this path anymore I think it's it

always has to come back to you I like I've always been in the school of

thought cuz and I love my family but they were always telling me do this and

especially cuz my parents were immigrant everything was job

security get a good job get a good job 9 to 5 get a good job don't try to do

anything else you know because they struggled so much and so when I tried to

do things outside of that element they were afraid they were confused they

thought I was nuts even when I started the NYPD they were not they were not

happy at all they're like what is this girls don't do these types of

jobs even in my community uh they you know I was laughed at you know people

people kind of are like look at Yanni was my dad's name look at Yan's daughter

look look how silly she's she is you know so this is kind of like those

moments where you going back to you just have to do

what you feel because afterward you're going to be pissed off as

hell because you listen to other people and on that point of gut instinct which

you mentioned a second ago is there a way do you think to train and develop

your gut instinct cuz you strike me as someone that has a pretty astute gut

instinct that you trust but some people don't and what ends up happening is they

just end up living in regret that they didn't listen to their gut instinct and

they you know like they only find out after the fact after they've been

mistreated so I'm wondering if there's a way to like cultivate a better

relationship with one's intuition and gut instinct yeah stop asking everybody

what they think when I have a really big decision

to make like really big I don't I don't tally people in fact the bigger it is

the bigger the consequences or the bigger the the pain or the trauma or

whatever it is I go in because they're going to confuse

me that's what you do you stop asking people and if you're going to ask

somebody let's say it's a health decision you're going to go to a doctor

or you're going to go to someone who has specific knowledge about a decision you

are trying to make you're not going to go to Mom you're not going to go to Dad

you're not going to go to your brother you're not going to go to people who

don't have that who although they love you their opinions are going to send you

like a pingpong ball that's how you become unsteady and you can start small

you can start small and when I say start small is start making decisions without

running them by anybody what to eat where to go where to vacation just you

can start small it's just allow yourself to be the decision maker allow yourself

to be in the driver's seat but what we do is we invite people in the car we're

like yeah yeah you could drive my car no problem they get in the driver's seat we

put them in the driver's seat then we're in the passenger seat or we might even

get kicked to the back seat and then we're all pissed off like why are you

driving like that why are you going that way that's not really where I want to go

then drive the car and stop inviting everybody in to drive it for you and

then be pissed off when they don't take it the direction you want to go if

you're going to be pissed off always be pissed off at

yourself because it's like I chose I chose wrong but I chose that is how you

build confidence you know going back to law enforcement cuz I teach it one of

the predominant trains that people in law enforcement have is um they are they

have high confidence because of one reason they are they make

decisions they are good decision makers because when you're out on the street

and you're dealing with somebody or situation there's nobody to look over to

and say hey how should I handle this you have to make a choice and you have to

go making decisions is going to increase your confidence and your ability in

yourself even if they're the wrong decisions that's not the point be a

decision maker in your life that is going to move you forward that is going

to increase your belief in yourself and your trust in yourself and you're going

to get comfortable too huh I read that wrong you know what I learned here I

should have read it this way and so this is when you bring in the Vibes and a

little bit of tactical strategy because you're less emotional that's another F

that's another hindrance when you are emotional you are a bad decision

maker when you are in a space of emotion make no decision avoid don't text don't

call don't I always say just remove yourself and go in go quiet when you can

go quiet and be in that Stillness of you it will come to you over time and you

know what's another great thing and when you look at resilient people they don't

have all the answers and they don't need to have all the answers I don't have all

the answers but I don't need them to be okay and this is where you Embrace that

uncertainty you don't have to have all the answers and that by itself is

powerful like you don't need to figure it out you don't need to know what to do

right away leave it sit in it be in it then when it's time

you move through you're going to end up getting a

lot of unsolicited advice though you know this is we all do we get when we're

making trying to make those big life decisions we'll have someone who we

didn't even ask them but people will be chipping in telling you what to think of

yourself and there's an element almost I guess of being able to develop stronger

boundaries in your life so that you can keep the outside world outside okay so

then how about you stop telling everybody your

business why do they need to know what you're thinking about doing here or

there why because when you open your mouth to

share things you're going to get advice so this goes back to you do I open my

mouth or do I stay quiet because if I open my mouth and I start talking people

are going to start sharing and so when people like oh they don't respect my

boundaries you're the one who offered it if you want to create boundaries you

start with them I don't share or like if I'm like for example I'm working on a

project or deal nobody knows until my deal is done why I don't know how it's

going to go I don't want other people's opinions I'll have the opinions of

whoever I'm dealing with specifically in a deal if it's a project right I'm going

to talk to them but I don't want other people confusing me people confuse you

good intentions but when you've got too many voices in your

head that's why you can't trust yourself because you've got all these other

voices you can't hear your own so I know if I share something with

someone they're going to share their thoughts and maybe I don't want

them I stay I will tell you I usually stay quiet until I'm ready to reveal

something also I'll stay quiet until it's either done like it's happened

because so many times you'll do something and it falls through and it

you're like you don't want to have to explain it to other people it's like why

do I need to put myself in that situation where I always talking I think

talking talking talking talking although I think communication is good but

sometimes it's oversharing and overp putting our stuff

out there how are you going to have boundaries when you yourself violate

those boundaries like you just make yourself like open borders everybody

come in if you're a bit more methodical with who you share what with and why I

think that that's okay but when you're like literally like tallying

everybody even if it's like what job to do do like for example there's a woman

in the the community I have and she's trying to figure out what career to do

and she was kind of like my mom says this my dad says this grown woman and

and it was coming from a genuine place and I like this but I don't like that

and she was ping ponging everywhere she's like Evie what's you know can you

can you share something with me I was like stop I was like stop talking to

everybody why are you telling everybody to give you advice I was like I want you

to think about how insane what you're doing is you are going to another human

being to ask them what job what career you should do a job that you're going to

wake up every morning to get out of bed to go do day after day after day and

you're tallying and pulling other people who are not going to be doing that

you're going to be doing that on what you should do do you see a little bit of

the Ridiculousness of how you are asking somebody else you're the one who has to

get up every morning and go do it if you say that to her and you ask her to

justify why she's doing that she might say well I'm just not sure I just wanted

to hear other people's opinions I just don't know you can she can you can do

that but if the question is how do I learn to trust myself you trust yourself

more by listening to yourself more and asking other people less that that that

is how you get there clearly she doesn't trust herself though no and then maybe

maybe just the circle around you it's also to you know and I don't know if

you've been able to do this over the years slowly I've also accumulated

people around me over it takes time where they're trusted people where I can

go to for specific things if I need to because I like the way they move through

life uh I I think that they they handle themselves well maybe they do well in

business they're thoughtful I like their character and so over time you can also

I don't want to say accumulate but you can kind kind of start to pull folks

like that in takes time because people are going to come into your life in in

different moments and when you find those precious

gems keep them a bit close and then you can start to accumulate a a circle and

it's not people you go to every day it's just people that you can pick up the

phone say Hey Stephen it's heavie can I run something by you sure eie no problem

what do you want to run by me you can create those too and at least

for me I've been able over time slowly because it's not going to happen

overnight and then sometimes people come into that space and sometimes you say

want to push you a little further out it's not working out anymore that woman

in that example what does she ultimately need to do cuz I can imagine in her

world she's not certain about any path so she's got 20% certainty about going

in this direction 30% certainty about going in that direction apparently and

maybe 40% about going in that direction and then the rest is just a little bit

of confusion and procrastination and fear what does she actually have to do

she just has to make a choice and do it pick one and do it there's no there's no

perfect choice eie but there isn't there's no there's no there's no way to

know how it's going to pan out there's no way to know just choose choose

something choose something and even if it's wrong you you know find peace and

like I chose it was wrong but you know what I'm not stuck here

that's the other thing like you know you can change your decisions just because

you choose something it doesn't mean you're stuck there we have the ability

to get out you do you can find ways to get out and say I made a wrong

choice it's okay you also have to be okay with it the interesting thing

within our personal lives that I think causes such procrastination versus

business is in business especially if you're in a startup if you don't make a

choice or even like I imagine in the Secret Service like if you don't make a

choice there is an iMed iate consequence whereas in your life you can kind of

meander for a year 3 years 5 years and just sit and procrastinate whereas like

in a secret service situation when Trump is being shot

at Meandering for five years as a secret service agent I imagine isn't possible

so that is something what will help with that is it's something called it's

called instrumental it's called sense making it's understanding a person's

motivational mindset an instrumental person in certain jobs can yield More

instrumental people this is where I am doing something where I am task oriented

this just happened so I have to respond this way I'm going to do that I'm going

to do this like I'm looking at the overall what is my next step then my

next step then my next step when you are instrumental you are

non-emotional I'm not in the emotion of it so although like if you bring a a

protect getting shot right although it can seem emotional yes it is but in that

moment at least through training it's shots being fired

jump in front cover Shield evacuate you run through those things that's being

instrumental right which is having like a a framework for what to do next you're

functioning you're you're being tasked you're task oriented I'm going to do

this I'm going to do this I'm going to do this you have a business decision to

make let's say something bad's happening in the business okay how do I stop this

hemorrhaging I'm going to do this I'm going to do this I'm going to do this

that's instrumental on the flip side of that is

something called identity when I am identity I am oh my God I can't believe

this is happening this is horrible I don't know what to do I'm confused I'm

really upset about this I can't believe I'm finding myself here now I'm in that

Purgatory space I'm not doing anything I'm also emotional so I can't think

clearly and I'm not able to make moves so how did they train you as a secret

service agent to be have that instrumental mindset you do action

action everything action make a choice make a choice make a choice move go go

go do you know what's interesting everything was about movement don't be

still even when you're getting shot at don't be still they actually teach you

to run in zigzags it's actually really hard to shoot someone if they're not

perfectly stilled I mean we would shoot paper targets you miss you're stressed

out your emotion you're looking at this guy shooting that person's shooting am I

shooting like [ __ ] you know cuz everyone's looking at each other's

scores and you know if you don't shoot well they're going to be like I don't

want to take you out on the next raid with me right so you you've got that

Adrenaline Rush it's a hard thing to do um but they teach you like hey if you're

getting shot at don't sit there like a dummy move run and while you're running

run like zigzag throw people off move and I and I've taken that premise of

always being Kinesis Kinesis is a Greek move Kinesis move move always

move create momentum no matter how stuck you feel and I I follow this actually in

my own just in my own life just move don't sit still I'm not saying don't

grieve don't be sad don't feel it's okay but don't put yourself in a place where

you're completely stagnant cuz that's where you get stuck and you don't move

and you get comfortable and you become afraid if you can just create movement

I'm going to create a little bit of movement I'm going to make a decision

here and then another one another one if you can just stay in Kinesis movement

you'll be able to move through whatever it is you're going through I remember I

interviewed Joo willick and he said pretty much a very similar thing to me

he said in the SAS or the the Navy Seals when you're lost you're not going to get

any new information if you just stay where you are so you have to just move

even if you don't know which direction movement generates information which

then can inform a better decision and you're kind of saying the same thing

there which is if you're stuck you need to just get into Kinesis make a decision

start moving and then you'll learn at least something you learn something even

if it means reaching out to someone it's just do something that's helping you

create some type of progress when when you don't move when we don't have

Kinesis like this is where you get stuck in that emotional depravity of like I

feel horrible this is happening like if you can find ways to move out of your

problem as bad as it feels don't bathe in it like don't take a bath in

it feel it but like to a point and you know what else too you also don't have

to figure it out you don't have to figure out why did this happen or why

did this person do it sometimes there's nothing to figure out sometimes it just

is sometimes there's Brilliance and freedom and just letting go and saying

this happened I don't know why it happened and I don't need to know why

but I can figure out how I need to move forward Kinesis how am I going to move

out of this what do I go to next there's no sometimes the more you sit and you

analyze this stuff the more pain you put yourself through you're rethinking

you're retelling you're reliving and especially if you're

reliving things that somebody else did to you like the pain and you know you

ever have those moments where you start to relive I should have done this I

should have said this do you know it actually activates the same part of the

brain that's activated when you do cocaine so it becomes addictive yeah

makes you high think about that as even though it's negative feelings you're

like yeah you're having this whole thing happen and it's like I always look at I

want you know I always look at is what I'm doing leading me to a to the path I

want to go to if it's not then I try to relinquish I'm like listen it's okay to

feel bad but you will feel less bad if you can keep that momentum going being

stuck and in that place of victimhood or fear or procrastination do you think

that victimhood is addictive I think it becomes a

habit I don't think most people want to be there if you ask anybody nobody's

going to say yeah I love it but what happens is it becomes a habit and it's a

pattern of behavior and a pattern and a way of thinking that you become used to

what's the reward in that habit cycle then I don't know if there's a reward

and I don't know if people think about it they just get stuck and they repeat

the same thing because they're afraid and uncertain of if they change it what

will happen you know you see this in um in relationships where you know and

it's not just domestic violence but but you'll see it in these really imbalanced

relationships where you will see one person who's very dominant and one

person the dominant person will be somebody who's very high power in

control setting the agenda but not in a good way and then you'll see another

person who's very low power weak submissive avoid it the reason why that

relationship works is one is here so the other has to be here they they both

can't be high powered cuz they'll clash and so that's why when you see a lot of

these imbalanced relationships or severely imbalanced when it's domestic

violence and it can be man towards woman woman towards man or same sex you will

see that it's one person who's up here High control and then the other person

goes submissive avoidant this person down here is just trying to keep the

peace I don't want conflict I don't want to upset them I don't want to set them

off but what you do is you go deeper and deeper and deeper and the more you try

to keep the peace the more you're submissive and avoidant and uncertain

what does the other person do the higher up they go because you just help create

this imbalance this further spread of power in the relationship they become

louder stronger dogmatic demanding rigid and then that happens over time

then you find yourself in the space we're like how did I end up here and

this person's here and then that's one of those examples of where another

person keeps you literally suppressed so how are you going to trust yourself and

your voice and make good decisions if you have such a an individual around you

and that's another thing that keeps a person pushed down and

suppressed as a woman's secret service agent when you first went into service I

imagine there was a sort of institutional sexism just thinking about

that era that time where people would look at you and think well you know as a

woman there wasn't as many women in the Secret Service

so maybe she's someone that I can push down maybe she's someone who I can make

the odd comment to maybe I could create a p power Dynamic where I'm above her

did that ever happen and if it did happen how did you deal with it so

that's like it's the truth is that stuff does happen right and it it could happen

I remember Barbara Pierce Bush went to Tanzania I'm the assistant detail leader

which means I was like the head person and then my boss from headquarters came

but he wasn't there yet and we were having a briefing and you protecting the

Bush family I was protecting I was the uh assistant detail leader for Barbara

Pierce Bush so George Bush Jr's daughter one of the twins it's Jenna and Barbara

I had Barbara so she went there to do like philanthropic work Aid and we were

going to some really like a not safe areas right a lot of vulnerabilities a

lot of concerns so I set up the briefing I'm the person

in charge and and uh agents are coming from different parts of the country to

help supplement some some agents I've never met so I remember one guy walks in

and he's like oh hey hi so this is in the hotel room we're having the briefing

and no one's there yet it's just him and I hi you know how are you okay he's like

hey you know the the intern staff room is down the hall if you want to go you

know find it I can show you so when he saw me he made an assumption I was staff

intern you know I was part of the the Entourage but not an actual

agent and so I'm like actually no I'm I'm EV I'm the assistant detail leader

here U you know thank you for joining what office are you from so now could I

be pissed off sure did he make an assumption based on what he saw sure

those are moments where like I don't care really no 0% no who looked like a

big dummy afterward he did not me it does become I'm annoying but this is

like where you got to be like this is where you have to pick your battles you

can't fight everybody oh my God Stephen imagine how exhausted you'd be if you f

you fought every buffoon came your way some I mean some people literally have

designed their life to fight buffoons right and I'm busy I have things to do

think about how much time and energy they take and waste from you and that's

talk about a life of being stagnant and doing nothing because you're too busy

fighting everybody choose and fight strategically so if it's something I

need to fight fight I'll give you another

example after September 11th the the US Secret Service field office was in the

World Trade Center 7 so when the towers collapsed we lost our whole office so

immediately the Secret Service New York office they were trying to find a new

home so they found office space in Brooklyn and you know obviously in a

place like that like the office space needs to be designed a specific way for

like what we're doing again non-descript nobody needs to nowh there but you're

designing it to look and feel a certain way to get things done I'm an agent

now I get called into the Sachs office which is the head boss and he

says I need you to design this office for me work with headquarters get us

nice photos make this look like our new home um you know we have a lot of

briefings here I'm going to put you in charge of this can you do this

okay yes sir there's 250 agents in the office I get pulled for interior design

Duty HGTV there we go so I said all right no problem so I did I'm like I'm

going to do it I'm going to own it and I remember some of the women were like

aren't you I'm like no worries I was like I'm going to do the best damn job I

can so I did took me months I made a nice office I was done with it fast

forward that same boss put out an open bid new polygraph position there's only

two polygraph examiners in the New York office 30 throughout the whole Us Secret

Service a spot comes open which is rare everybody put your name in whoever wants

it everybody puts their name in people senior to me put their name in and then

one of the senior uh polygraph guys was like why don't you put your name I'm

like dude no way no one's going to confess to me they're going to see me

they're going to high five each other I'm never putting my name in he's like

put your name in you don't know I wait till like the last half hour before they

call it a bid closes and I threw my name in I'm like it's not going to happen

guess what week later I get a phone call come to my office same boss sits me down

he's like I had x amount of people put in maybe 30 or so people he's like I

picked you and he said do you know why I said no sir he's like I gave you that

assignment to design the office and fix it and at no point did you [ __ ] or

complain or say anything to me and in fact you did a great job thank you this

is your assignment put in I need to understand here something which is on

one hand I've got to be protecting my boundaries right don't let people [ __ ]

with me on the other hand don't make someone's Prejudice my

problem and don't [ __ ] and complain are these mutually exclus are these like two

separate ideas or is it like context dependent because you know if if I'm

protecting my boundaries my boss calls me in and tells me that I'm going to be

doing the interior as job potentially because I'm a woman is not protecting my

boundaries in that situation going [ __ ] you and calling him out I could have I

could have but I assure you I would not have gotten that position I also knew

somebody has to do it so he happened to pick me maybe he likes my sense of style

Maybe not maybe because of the way I look maybe because I'm a woman I don't

know you know what's funny he didn't know this I actually studied Fine Art in

college H so so I was I wasn't that appalled and

and I also looked at you know what too I also looked at the opportunity because

now I got to work with people in headquarters that I never would have

gotten exposed to and like all the historic archive stuff so there was a

part of it I was like oh this is kind of cool now could I have argued it I could

have but then I guess you choose I chose not to long term it worked out for me

there's also times where I don't know Stephen like you can't care so hard

people are going to slight you and like h you choose how much you're going to

care about how much they slighted you and I have noticed that the more I

care the more of a detriment it is to me and the less I care the better I perform

overall all I'm saying is just choose strategically don't choose just cuz

you're pissed cuz if you're doing it cuz you're

pissed now you're being ruled by emotion and anytime you make choices by emotion

you're going to make bad choices bar the for a lot of people the action they take

following a situation like that is so quick and almost like so automatic that

they yeah that they just and then they and they might like relax later and go

[ __ ] why did I say that I've R my life that's why I said it that's why

you're easily manipulated if you are the person and please know that I was that

person if if you are that person where you are just reactive reactive reactive

you're going to sink your ship completely it means you're not thinking

through things it means you are just you have no self-regulation I self-regulate

don't don't get me wrong there's times where I'm like I'm going to burn this

bridge down all the way and I don't care I'm good with it so long as I am

choosing clear-headed I'm going to burn this bridge

down but I'm choosing to do it I'm not doing it reactively I'm not doing it

because I've lost control I'm doing it cuz I made that choice I'm going to burn

this bridge and this relationship and I'm 100% okay with it do it but make

sure you're doing it not the monkey inside your brain

exactly how do I train the monkey inside my brain over time because you said you

didn't you used to be less regulated right you used to make more emotional

decisions and over time you've come to be able to make those very

rational like prefrontal cortex decisions and vibes okay and vibes

I shut up I started to shut up I just started to be quiet when I'm

pissed I go quiet I don't say anything like when you that I think that's the

biggest thing I learned to be quiet I just learned to shut my mouth not to

reveal your upcoming book but I know that one of the 100 um principles in

that book is called 100 Rules of Engagement shut the [ __ ] up rule number

one and the reason why is not to be vulgar it's because because it helped me

so much because the more you talk just when you talk in general the more you

talk the more you reveal the more people know the more you solicit the more

people share with you the more you get confused the more indecisive you are the

more the more the more the more and when I learned to stop

self-regulate not to shoot my mouth off because I was offended you can only get

offended first of all if you allow yourself to get offended there are times

that people are going to cross you and disrespect you yes yes but like how

often can you be offended and also there's times like who

cares like I don't have to have everybody's respect that's another

exhausting thing I have to you need to respect me and you need to disrespect me

he disrespected me and I'm Greek it's a big thing like oh but that that's going

to wear you out like and you don't need it there were times where maybe I worked

with people who I could tell I was not wanted I remember once NYPD and I

started off in NYPD NYPD Queen's narcotics unit sorry guys this a true

story and um I was sent to partner up with Queen's narcotics to take down this

guy who was doing child porn and counterfeit money in addition to

drugs so I get sent to the task force this is a hardcore task force within the

net NYPD I show up with agents I'm the lead agent in charge and I show up and

they were not happy to see see me not at all and I remember walking in I'm I

don't know how it is now I'm sure it's not but you know women's calendars

Centerfolds all over the place I walked in personally I didn't care but I was

just like I think it's going to be a problem not me them them for

me and um I could tell that they didn't want me there they started leaving

information out of briefings they would ignore me when we were at doing the

search warrants like really tactical things that they were doing that were

wrong and this was a ring of people that we were trying to take down so the first

time and then plus my team seeing this so I don't say anything my team doesn't

say anything my team's all guys and thankfully I had like really respectful

agents with me but these guys are seeing it they're seeing how they're treating

me by proxy them no one's saying anything they're disregarding us um and

the reason why we were asked to be there is because we're experts in counterfeit

we're also experts in child porn so we do the arrest it's done but

then there's a subsequent arrest that happens and we show up for that same

thing like literally ignoring you like you're not even there we do the arrest

we do the prince and at one point they even leave the precinct and we're like

where did they go they just completely ditched us and I I remember going back

to my group leader

Carl and uh I go to Carl I said Hey listen if these guys call again cuz

there were more arrests I was like don't send me out there and he's like why I'm

like it's very clear they don't want me there I said I don't want to fight but

I'm not also going to sit and stand my ground and put myself somewhere I don't

want to be I don't like the way it feels I don't want to be there it's bad for

the team send a dude send a dude don't send me back out

there I won't go is that letting them win

though no cuz they'll be at the office with their posters up of these women and

they'll be like yeah we got rid of her knock yourselves out I this is also

where you choose what circles want to be in it was a circle I chose I didn't want

to be in you can't change a mindset and culture of people like if that's also

also think about it it wasn't one person I was up against it was the whole group

so now I'm going to come in and bulldo my way into this what group mentality I

think this is where I really learned to navigate and you have to be good at it

like where to fight where to walk away from and I was like I don't need to be

here I don't need to prove anything to anybody I've earned it I'm like half of

you yahoos couldn't become special agent if you you know applied like it's a hard

thing to become to go from a cop to do that so with that I was like no I don't

need to and it's actually the only time I ever did that cuz it was that

egregious it was egregious and I thought it was a danger to me and also a danger

to the other special agents like I felt like I had a responsibility and I'm like

if I'm working with the Queen's narcotics narcotics task force and

they're not communicating they're withholding information someone's going

to get shot I was like and that's on them not on me but I'm also not going to

going to partake a lot of people will listen to this and they'll relate to the

feeling of being subtly disrespected on a recurring basis by

individuals in their life whether it's their romantic partner whether it's a

colleague at work whether it's someone else that they interact with and so many

people I've I've seen this in some of the questions I get sent in are Keen to

understand how to deal with someone that is disrespecting you you know cuz I I

guess there's a train of thought that would say when they disrespect you you

kind of argue and engage and try and Shout them down and try and win but if

you are being subtly disrespected in your own life by someone what do you

recommend that they do okay who is it so if it's my partner so I'm married I have

a husband he's another special agent if he does something where I feel

disrespected because I care so deeply about that relationship and the

Integrity of that relationship

him I might argue it not to argue but because I want to keep a good healthy

relationship now don't get me wrong being in a relationship you also let a

lot of things go right so it's it's again what am I willing to let go what's

I don't want to say silly but what's like really not important and where you

know what's like hey I want to address this with you and this is why so for me

that takes hierarchy who your partner is I when we talked about that before Bar

None that is really such a Crux of how well you're going to do in life they're

either going to raise you up or they're going to sink you down so that matters

and I will do my best not to be belligerent when I'm having that

discussion right now everybody else falls to the

side for me cuz because I understand the value of being with a person and you're

with that person 90% of the time and that's an investment in that

relationship but aside from everybody else mostly everybody else I can let it

go I always look at are you worth my time and energy I'm busy so do I need to

stop and do I need to address you okay so let's play out a scenario okay and in

this scenario I'm going to make herse PE so we work together right we work

together in a call center this is actually something that happened to me

when I was in the early sort of phase of my career where I was working in call

centers so I was like answering phones and doing that kind of thing and selling

things on the phone Etc and I remember being sat next to someone who was like

subtly disrespecting me all the time and at this point in my life I wasn't in any

position of authority to do anything about it I've actually it's funny

because that one instance has completely shap shaped my leadership perspective

and my real deep belief that I have a responsibility as the founder of the

company or CEO to go in search of and clamp out all disrespect in an

organization that is happening beneath me because you're often powerless at

work to do anything about it and I felt that I couldn't stop this lady that sat

next to me disrespecting me because I wasn't her boss so now that I

have the responsibility it's a big thing for me that we don't employ [ __ ] in

[ __ ] and there's actually a recent example where someone was in our

business for a total of a couple of hours and actually my

previous company there was a guy that walked in during his initiation he went

like this and walked off day one of his job he put both metal fingers up after

his like initiation where you iation we basically asked them questions asked

them what they're into who they are put both middle fingers up and walked off

was the last time anyone saw them in the building and it because it was a it was

a sign of a character issue that would would lead to further

disrespect so if I'm sat next to you at work eie we're colleagues and you you

come in in the morning and I go oh first time you've been on time and then you

you do some work and I go not bad considering your standard and then

you're in a meeting and you're talking and I just interrupt you

and you submit a piece of work and I and I look at it and I turn my nose up and

you hear me talking [ __ ] about you behind your back when people aren't

there me criticizing your work and how you are and your delivery how are you

going to deal with that situation so I would deal with a specific situation not

the whole thing I would pick a moment where I have tangible facts and I would

say can I speak to you for a moment okay so we're in a group we're all on the

calls on in my call center I'm not going to do in front of other people okay fine

so this is what happens I this is not actually what happened in my life did

you do this no no no no F me I didn't do anything I just wanted the money I was

trying to just survive could feed myself I was going to open my mouth but I'm

we're in a call center and I've disrespected you for a while now and

then I Turn to You and I go and you you've just come off a call and I go you

know what you should have you could have done that better you didn't close that

properly e and I you know next time you do a call and you get stuck like that

just speak to me and I'll take the call off you just tell them that your

colleague will handle it and I carry them with my day what are you going to

do in that moment I might not do anything well it also depends because

you said I didn't do anything I was trying to feed myself and that plays a

role like where are you I think part of it is also is I was very young and I

didn't have the tools to address that situation the problem is the situation

made coming to work a misery yeah and this version of myself irrespective of

my financial situation would have and even today because even today okay I

have money I have security but I'm still playing at a certain level where there's

disrespect potential I actually have a really good example that I could never

share as someone that I work with who's extremely successful we work on a

particular project together and I found out that this was happening and they

were basically threatened by me because for a variety of reasons this this is

what I was told by an an intermediary and I chose a moment when I heard that

they had just disrespected me within a short period of time and I walked in in

front of a in front of a group of people and I said to them I said I I heard what

you did out there in the hallway when I wasn't there and um in the future if you

want to say something to me I'd really appreciate it you said it to my face

instead of behind my back and this and it's crazy what

happened it's crazy what happened this really big tough powerful individual

turned into a toddler in front of my eyes oh what no I didn't say and I left

the room and then it never happened again but I think that that's okay too

but you also came to that place like it's like I think each person has to

choose and if you choose to do it you can do it now the fact that you did in

front of people but what you did that was smart is you were able to speak as

upset as you were you were able to speak and articulate yourself clearly yeah and

it had just happened and you were able to say what just specifically happened

here that's the difference cuz sometimes it's like I feel like you treat me this

way or I think you did this or it seems like that those are very ambiguous so if

you're going to confront someone like you did you did it the smart way cuz you

picked a specific moment you said specifically out on the hallway you just

did this you said X Y and Z if you want to say something to me always feel free

to come say it to me that's why I also think it worked and you're also in a

place where you feel like you can do that I think that that's okay too but

you also took a risk and you're like uncertainty like I'll burn this down

yeah because on that project I'm not the one that's got the power I can still be

fired from that particular project but you chose you're like Let It Burn yeah

cuz I I don't want to be anywhere where I'm miserable exactly you made a but you

made a choice you're like let it burn so you UND you at some point understood

like these there's a consequence here and it's interesting cuz bullies they're

not they they Flex they're not very powerful you know I had oh gosh we're

like swapping stories here I had one scenario where I inherit a case you know

every John's gone he went to the president's detail you are now taking

Jon's case Okay so there were some things that were incomplete in John's

case with with regard to evidence it was admin stuff the admin paperwork for

evidence hadn't been filled out yet I got the case I pushed it to the side I

worked on it I would update it but I hadn't done the admin thing with it fast

forward I'm leaving cuz I just got bumped to a different position and so

the new agent that got it I'm like hey here's the case I said there's one thing

that I didn't get to do it's the admin thing for the evidence I'm like I can

help you go through it blah blah blah blah

well uh the group leader I had at the time which was a

peer in front of the whole group one day he's like

hey you didn't do this admin you didn't file the evidence for whatever blah blah

blah blah and he's doing this in front of everybody you know you need to take

care of that and that's on you and I don't care that you inherited the case

and blah blah blah blah blah so I'm watching this happen and I assure you I

all I wanted to do was like reach over and lunge him by the neck but I didn't I

left I was pissed I let it ride my anger ride and

later that day I went and I found him after I calmed down and his name was

Jeff I'm like hey Jeff come here let me talk to you and I took him into the

stairwell cuz we had these secure stairwells I said listen earlier on you

brought up this case you're 100% right I didn't finish the ad paperwork for the

evidence I will take care of it and I will help the new agent do it I said

however I was like if you ever want to address me cuz he was very insulting

when he did it he did it in front of the whole group to flex I said if you ever

want to address me don't ever do it like that again I go because I'm addressing

you and I'm actually giving you more respect than you showed me in there

before by pulling you into this stairwell I said so if you want to

address me feel free to pull me to the side and speak to me but what you did

out there there's no need we're peers and that's it you may be the group

leader but there's no need to talk to me like

that I go have the decency to address me the way and the with the courtesy that

I'm giving you because I could have easily tore your head off in there and

he was a peer he was a peer SLG group leader so we were the same but he

happened to be a group leader okay which meant he oversaw me I said so next time

there's not going to be a next time it was immediately I'm sorry you're right

I'm sorry I'm sorry now for that sonar Mario I wanted to have long-term good

relationships because this person was was in my

squad and so that's why I handle it like that never happened again so I guess

like there's different ways to do it with Jeff I preserved his dignity

because if I would have shot back he would have shot back at me I would have

shut back at him and there's a point too where I'm like I'm I don't want to look

like an I don't want to sit and fight and look

stupid I I want to be in control of like how I manage an environment and me

yelling back or confronting someone sometimes may not be it especially if I

think I can't keep myself composed and in that moment there was no way I was

going to be composed I think you're right now I

reflect on the incident that I described to you I don't actually think I was that

composed I didn't shout I was very articulate looked to them in the eyes

without breaking eye contact but actually if I was really composed I

would have done what you did which is I would have said please can I have a

private chat with you and I actually think it would have been more effective

and would have shown more of my sort of fortitude to have that conversation

privately the other thing that you said which I thought was so important in the

context of what we're saying is you do have to point at a specific incident

because these individuals they are masters of gaslighting you so if you

don't have specifics that just happened in that location and it made me feel

like this and you said this if you let it ride and you come to them with Vibes

they will so easily twist it what are you talking about I don't know what you

mean no that's not what I meant that's why you have to come with very specific

stuff but you know even if if you said you were pissed when you did it if you

were still able to articulate yourself you were I think it's okay to own it

listen I'm not saying I've always flown like uh up top like there's times where

I'm like I shouldn't have done that or said it but I I also run hot and I know

myself and so I have to police myself and and then there's times like we learn

our lesson it's just I think whatever you do just own it whether if it was the

wrong thing to do just say I won't do that next time

but I feel like you were okay you said something a second ago which about

bullies right and there's this fascinating thing I've come to learn

about bullies and people that are like this type of disrespect is they're

actually going in search of the weakest link and the the incredible thing that

happened in the scenario that I'm describing is once this individual

realized that I would literally call it out and I was I was off the table they

never treated me like that again but they moved on they moved on to someone

else that I work with and that person as we sit here today is thinking of leaving

that environment because of the same person who was making the little snide

slight comments about me is now doing it about

them and I say to this person I say why don't you just do what I did why she cuz

she saw me confront I say to why don't you go just do what I did and she just

say I haven't got I I don't I don't want conflict so what is she doing actually

she's becoming suppressing herself yes yeah and she's going to leave something

that she loves doing purely she called me the other day purely because this

person's making her feel um a certain way I think that

that's a okay too though like she can it reminds me of that narcotic story it's

like she's just like I just don't want to be here anymore but at the same time

too if she keeps going when you go small small small they go higher higher it's

you know speaking of Billy I'm going to bring it back to Crime when I started

interviewing suspects right you watch TV shows and in your head think these

Predators right are like these like really intimidating scary predators and

the way they behave and you think like I'm going to get these like Savages in

the room nope and you know what's interesting when you look at the

populations of people being victimize the most first it's children then it's

women and then it's elderly why because they're the easiest to

victimize so when you look at Predators they pick easy prey or what they

perceive as easy prey they don't want Fair fights I would sit across people in

the room who did like really horrific crimes against kids and you would look

at them and you're like you I could eat you for

lunch a lot of times to we build up people in our heads and we think like

they're these these like high Apex individuals they're not they pray on

people weaker than themselves and why it makes them feel stronger and better more

powerful why do you need to do that because you feel

weak that's why you do that that's why you bully that's why you push because

because you feel a void and you look to feel that void by taking from other

people and that's what makes you feel strong all these Predators I never sat

across from anybody to include terrorists I never sat across anyone and

I was just like oh this guy's scary never I'm shocked actually as I say it I

have never to this day sat across someone where I'm like oof

not once everybody I'd walk in and I'm like you in my head of course the inside

voice like you did this and so I guess like bullies like I think sometimes

we unfortunately give them more weight and

gravitas then they really are weak weakness all the way through with that

in mind how do I stop myself becoming prey to a predator you stop acting like

prey so the one thing you're not going to be is it depends who it is first of

all if it's personal relationships you have to

set the intention of the relationship from the beginning how you want it to go

so let's do work work is an easy one I'm not there to be your friend I can be

friendly but I'm not going to be your friend I'm not there to be super nice to

you or super sweet or super kind like I can be warm I can be respectful I can be

compassionate I can be those things but I got to bring the right version of me

to a work environment cuz then I just get because then I set the tone of like

well is every my friend or is every my boss like what am I dealing with here

like always keep that level of professionalism always and I make I make

a point to do it because then it just becomes really awkward if if people are

your friends can you balance a relationship like that you just got to

be really really really really good but like don't come in and like literally

like make yourself a doormat or like overextend to the the point because the

more you overextend even a good person it's going to be like oh that's just how

she is that's how he is they get used to being like that and people like being

catered to they like feeling like they're above and so now you create this

role Dynamic of I'm subservient and you're here so you want to make sure

that no matter how excited you are to work with someone or be with someone

that you don't create this disproportionate thing like the Seesaw

you want to keep the Seesaw level it'll go up and down but but you want to make

sure that you because you will do it everybody assesses everybody everybody

sizes people up they do it intuitively people meet you they size you up oh he

seems like this she seems like that she seems like she's going to be this

way project what you want them to feel I'm here I'm warm I'm open I'm happy to

be here again thank you for having me um let's talk but at the same time you can

also think about how you sit how you carry yourself your voice your tone all

these things play Alone Together I know people talk about body language it does

play a role and the fact that look something as simple as when you go to

meetings are you in the meeting and you're like this you're small maybe you

got your phone out right what am I doing I'm I'm making myself small my hands

aren't on the table because I don't think I'm worth putting my hands on the

table right I want to literally make myself disappear I'm not going to ask

any questions I'm going going to maybe sit

like this with my thing here right so this is telling you story about me it is

so it's a really subtle way to be like why don't I sit with purpose I'm

going to sit like this I'm going to have my arms out I'm going to have my

shoulders back something as simple as just my posture means something there's

a study actually done New York City they put up cameras years ago and they

started recording people walking in New York City then they took the footage and

they played it to convicted felons in prison and they said to them who would

you pick as prey they all picked the same people to

pray on all the same people just by walk there were three types of walk they

found out one walk was I'm walking I'm sloppy I'm not paying attention I'm just

like in my own space I have really no deliberate purpose in the way I'm moving

my body Target easy prey other easy prey my walk is small I'm more timid I'm kind

of like not comfortable I'm like paying attention easy prey those two barnon

were picked you know who they didn't pick the walk wasn't too sloppy big it

wasn't too small it was right in the middle and it's deliberate I'm in

control of my body I'm looking around I'm present I own my space that person I

want nothing to do with those group of people were not picked to be targets so

we exude Vibes energy all that stuff but even this this tool that we don't pay

attention to our body think about how you use it to portray yourself when

you're out there am I commanding myself or am I just not paying attention at all

so even subtle things like that your voice it's called paral Linguistics and

I wrote about it a lot in becoming Bulletproof

your your voice do I talk like this hi Amie so nice to meet you I'm so glad to

be here hi guys love it right what kind of guess am I going to

be right but when I find my true voice and I own it I slow down my speech I

bring down my tone and Pitch to my true voice to at least the most powerful

voice and I'm grounded and I take my time and I'm also when I speak and I

take my time I'm letting you know I deserve to be here

what I'm saying deserves to be heard and I deserve to take time for you to listen

to me as opposed to when I speak really really fast because hey guys look really

quick I don't want to take up anybody's time anymore I know you're all busy what

did I just tell everybody don't listen to me what I'm about to say isn't really

relevant and you're more important and what I'm about to say really isn't I

just killed it how many times do people finish meetings like that why are you

saying that you just told them don't listen to

me these are subtle things that if we just pay attention to you don't have to

do a lot you don't have to do a lot there's no magic pill there's no secret

to this other than really own yourself and think about what am I exuding with

my energy with my body with my voice even your voice your voice captures like

so many things like your voice it's like um you have to think of it like over

your your your your time in your life your voice captures the things you've

been through with you were told to be quiet be a good girl be a good boy don't

talk loud don't do this don't do that and you have to think like over time

this voice has become a bit mangled because other people around you were

telling you how to use it and often we're actually not using our true voice

it's the voice that we've sort of somehow manufactured and created based

off of what everybody else told us it should sound like and so you want to pay

attention to that like how do I sound and I even noticed when I my husband

pointed this out cuz cuz he's kind of got the same background he said to me

once he's like you ever noticed that when you talk to your mom your voice

goes high and I was like it does he's like yeah it does cuz she's my mom she's

an authority and also she has a higher voice cuz she talks with a very high

voice and I'm like you're right and so even with my daughter cuz I have a

little one I try very hard to make sure that I don't do like the baby babbling

voice and like the high-pitch voice because I don't want her to grow up

thinking that because she's a girl she has to talk like this all the time hi

Mom because I want her to have a strong commanding presence and where she going

to learn that from her mom in fact even in there are studies done that even in

scenarios where a child maybe favor the opposite sex

parent they imitate the same seex parent so my daughter whether she likes

me or not growing up will imitate my behavior more so because I'm the one

she's learning from and so I have awareness with that do you think your

life would have gone differently and you would be sat here now if you spoke

differently in the high pitch fast way that I wouldn't be doing news who's

going to listen to anything I say hi everybody Welcome today we had a mass

shooting do I sound like I know what I'm talking about I don't even if what I'm

saying is correct correct it's do I believe in the words

that I'm saying do I own the words I'm saying if I don't believe in them and I

don't sound like I'm know I'm talking about you won't either in fact when you

watch any any news anchor like you will hear like they've got a strong anchored

voice because even with breaking you stuff changes all the time you know I

remember I was covering the recent shooting in New Orleans it's breaking

news I'm getting information as it's coming in and I'm I'm doing a breakdown

the best I can with the information that's coming in so but I still have to

convey it in a way where people can trust and believe in what I'm saying but

if I don't sound like I believe in what I'm saying it's not going to land this

the the way you sound has more impact than the words you actually

say that's a big thing I didn't real I learned this later on I learned this as

an agent and then even more so when I began doing TV because there were times

where I'm like man this what I sound like

I don't know if you've ever had that you ever maybe when you first started off oh

yeah of course where you play yourself and you hear yourself and you're just

like oh yeah of course and then you're like you know I need to fix that I don't

need to sound like that I need to sound a certain way I'm the host of a podcast

I'm asking these questions I'm sitting across from these people I need to match

them to some degree to show that like please listen

to my show I deserve to be here I'm giving you good information I'm

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doac your hands you use your hands a lot as well yes probably because I'm Greek

no but it's it's interesting because it's part of the delivery when you're

saying something a second ago you were going and you you were doing slow hand

movements that are almost illustrating the point you're making and it is

persuasive because it almost is adding another layer of emphasis to what you're

saying whereas if your hands were just tucked into the table I actually might

think you're less confident or sure in what you're saying but because you're

like again it goes to what you saying you're taking more space up so don't

hide your hands like just for anybody listening 101 if you're sitting in a

meeting don't do hide your hands don't sit on them don't hide them just one it

it doesn't look good it doesn't send a good message it sounds like you're kind

of insecure you don't want to be there hands out I'm here I'm present and yes

with the these are called illustrators when you do this with your hands it's

called illustrators now there's a couple of things with illustrators one it can

make it more interesting to watch someone speaking when you use an

illustrator it that's more emphasis you said it it adds another layer aside from

me just sitting still right it engages people and pulls in the viewer a bit

more it's more engaging that's one the other thing with illustrators is it can

be a cultural C cultural thing I'm Greek I'm from New York so I've got massive

problem with these things I actually work very hard to put them away the

other thing that's actually interesting which you didn't ask but I will

volunteer this information it's uh another way I would use to tell if

somebody's being truthful or not again everybody is different everybody's body

language is different but when you're speaking to someone and they use

illustrators when they normally talk typically when we see illustrators

it's truthful right they're telling you a story yesterday yes you know I went

out with my friends we went and we had burgers and then afterward we went to

the store so when you see somebody doing that it is very likely they are reliving

the event and you can see the body reliving it with him so when you see

that positive sign typically that they're being truthful now if you're

talking to someone who uses illustrators and all of a sudden they do this this

they put their hands away during a certain part of the story so tell me who

you went out and had dinner with eie oh um you know it was just some

people from the office in that moment what you're going

to do is say Okay ev's used illustrators this whole time I shifted the

conversation I asked her something else not her hands me away why that's it why

that's lie detection 101 now it doesn't mean I am lying because everybody lies

different everybody's behavior is different we're not going to put people

in a box cuz that's just dumb however what you're noticing is a deviation

whenever he tells stories she uses her hands and then for whatever reason I

asked a question that question prompted something in eie and eie put her hands

away she did a shift and now you having caught that you're going to ask me more

questions you're not going to move on to the next topic you're going to find a

way to say I need to get Evie to talk more about who she went out with last

night because clearly something just happened and is that because they're

they're going from their natural state of flow and whatever to more calculated

and they're think they're like overthinking part of with lying right if

we're just using lying or if you ask me something for whatever reason let's say

I don't want to tell you who I had dinner with last night right when I feel

that I'm overwhelmed I'm in N dating lying is hard lying is hard you have to

think of what you're saying how am I going to say it is it going to be

believable I want to move the top topic on I don't want to get caught cuz who

wants to be a liar although everybody lies to some degree right so it's

overwhelming it's actually a heavy cognitive load that's why you have

that's why one of the things like it doesn't mean it's the only thing but one

of the things we were taught to pay attention to body language to people um

like if you read them well you'll know what to look for and look for the

deviations cuz everybody is uniquely different but you would look at body

language to see what are they doing with their body

because lying is hard and usually you want to go still and because you're

putting so much of a cognitive load here all this stuff goes away so that free

flowing eie telling you the story about I went out I had dinner I had a burger

it was great goes away the moment you're like well who'd you go have dinner with

eie and now if in that moment I don't want to tell you I'm having that oh [ __ ]

factor what am I going to say how am I going to say it I'm overloaded and so I

stop moving the body does Less in that moment in this specific

scenario a second ago when you were talking about the study in New York

where they examined how people walk and tried to figure out who walks like

prey I was I was wondering as you said that I was thinking can you fake it

because presumably how we walk is quite a subconscious thing and it comes from

as you said like the things we've been through in our life and who we've come

to believe that we are so after I heard that do I just go out on the street and

start walking with a bit more status and with my shoulders back or am I still

going to fail at some point yeah this is I think when I remember when I was

younger and I started learning about psychology and human behavior and

stuff even though I knew the information I think there was probably

990 other things that I was getting wrong that were projecting low value or

come disrespect me or I actually don't have a high sense of self-esteem that I

couldn't see so if I can control this one little thing it doesn't necessarily

mean the other 999 things that matter in nonviable communication are going to be

aligned if I'm not truly believing that I'm confident and high value in myself

so fake it to your make it or do you have to do some inner work I don't

believe in fake it to your make it and I actually don't like that term you know

why there's nothing fake about me or you I don't need to be a fake version of

myself but what I can be is a more aware version of myself and something as

simple as just doing one thing see just that one thing it's like you know what

I'm just not going to make myself small when I walk I'm going to take up space

that's it that's all I'm going to do I'm not there to solve like a whole puzzle

about why I am the way I am and why psychologically I walk this way but I'm

going to do one small thing that's going to make one small difference and it's

going to lessen slightly whether somebody decides to pray on me or not

that's it and so you know what happens habit you're going to break the habit of

walking like this and being invisible to just creating a very simple habit of I

just walk with my shoulders back now shoulders back shoulders back when you

go down the street in fact when I started doing the news and pay attention

to my posture and I would sit and do the news I'm like shoulders back like in my

head I'm like shoulders back shoulders back shoulders back because there were

times I watch myself or even during commercial break my husband would send

me text he's like Jesus Christ he's like sit up straight you look terrible he's

like no one's going to believe he's like stop slouching and I'm like oh you're

right it's just what am I projecting so you are simple things you can do so it's

not one big thing we do over time it's like and and I follow this too it's like

over life it's like one small thing for me to change a habit of something that I

do just start small and then conquer that

thing and then move to the next thing and then move to the next thing but at

the same time be be kind to yourself like we can't just beat ourselves up I'm

not this I'm not that I'm not confident like that narrative just takes you down

down down down down and you can literally I'm also not telling you to be

like I'm fantastic I'm great I'm this it's just just be

here just be like somewhere in the middle you know and it speaking of which

it reminds me of and this is kind of something a little bit different but we

talked about steadiness earlier like how do you stay steady and the one thing I

also learned about steadiness and just kind of finding that space where

you're you're you're in control it's something called neutrality mindset and

actually the person who brought it more to my attention you've had her on

Gabriel lion Dr Gabriel lion she's married to a seal now Gabrielle who's

actually my doctor a Navy SEAL she's married to Navy SEAL Dr

lion when uh her book was coming out she was asking me all these questions she's

like you know my book's coming out you know she was ask me questions smart

woman because I had a book come out so she's like let me ask Evie who's had a

book come out her opinion on a couple of things and at one point she said to me

you know were you nervous about whether it would perform well or not or how it

would do and I said no and she's like no she's like you weren't worried it

wouldn't make this list or that list I was like no I didn't think about it and

she laughed said why are you laughing she's like cuz you're all the same you

my husband all these Navy Seals she's like you're all in the

middle and what she was talking about is we have a neutrality mindset which means

we don't celebrate High Highs but we also don't fall down on low lows we're

always in the middle so going back to my book if my book did well it would do

well because it was a good book and people liked it that was it and if it

didn't do well it didn't resonate I was in tied to the fact that oh my God it's

doing great it's selling I didn't celebrate that now you would look at

like why wouldn't you celebrate a high I can but what I start to do is I

cultivate a habit where I'm tied to the external world and when the external

world is giving me this this this thing that I want I'm

happy but the flip side is that when the external world is going to give me

things I don't want I'm also going to be Tethered to that and I'm going to sink

down but if I'm in the middle I don't have high highs I don't have low lows

I'm always somewhere here neutrality mindset which means emotionally I'm

always stable more than likely 99 or 90% of the

time whatever that's neutrality mindset I don't have high highs I don't have low

lows nothing destabilizes me to that point how do we get there how did you

get there it's just it's well you don't get it sounds terrible but one you don't

get overly excited when something happens outside I'm not saying not to

celebrate but I'm also not going to be tethered like I can only be happy now

cuz this thing outside of me happened because now I'm training myself and my

mind to be when external things happen then I can be truly truly happy or when

external things happen I'm going to be truly truly sad but if when these

external things happen they don't pull me all the way up and they don't pull me

all the way down I won't have those highs and lows that other people will

have I can stay here so I make sure that when something great is

happening very small example I won't go out and tell everybody I allow it to

happen right and then people if people congratulate me or give me good news I

say thank you you know but I don't like that to be the source of my happiness CU

it comes from here because let's say I did my book and it bombed so what so now

according to that theory I should what I should plummet and be like oh my God I'm

a failure I wrote a book it was the only chance I had it tanked it who am I I'm

this so now my value is tied to what my emotional state is tied to what how well

or not well my book did that's the problem so the more stressful situations

you can put in the more places of uncertainty the more you can manage

these highs and lows the more you're going to live here and you know what

else going back to who is in your inner circle I don't like to be around people

who lose their [ __ ] when things break bad I don't as steady as I am they will

destabilize me they just will so I do my very best to try to keep a

circle of people around me as much as possible of people that I know are

steady so going back to Partners I happen to have a partner a husband who's

like that something can blow up and he'd be like all right let's

go he's not going to destabilize so that is infectious on me now can we have

people around us that are um severely impacted my Mom love you Mom sorry but

my mom who's like very at times can be emotionally impacted by the outside

world yes so I have to work very hard to compensate for that to not let that

impact me where I go high high and low lows it's just awareness but it's just

it's the external world the external environment cannot be the thing that

either brings you up or brings you down I completely agree I mean like obviously

running businesses and stuff is prime example where you're just getting

[ __ ] great news or bad news all the time and to even try and move

emotionally with whatever the news is today in your inbox would just be I'd be

like killed over on the floor dead

however there's so many people that listening that would say eie I

agree but my nervous system just seems to run the shop like I just seem to just

get dragged around by good things and bad things and I catastrophize when

something bad goes wrong and I just I know what you're saying is true eie but

like how do I get there what's like what's step one in becoming that person

that isn't swung up and down on the roller coaster of life do you know like

I wish people gave themselves more credit like they they think sometimes

people like I'm not it's like you are like you have so much more Authority and

regulation over yourself and you realize and I I think sometimes to the narrative

out there is like oh this happened to you it's not your fault or that happened

to you it's not your fault or this person did this to you it's not your

fault and so what happens is the narrative that we hear right now is this

exter internal world is fluctuating you it's not your fault and so if it's not

my fault how can I stabilize it so that's one thing so I'm not saying it's

your fault but I'm saying you have the ability to self-regulate please stop

listening to everybody else that's telling you it's not your fault it's out

of your hands it's this it's that no everything always starts and ends with

you if you can just keep that I it start and ends with me one you're right there

two in those moments when you start to catastrophize or you start to feel

yourself go that where stop literally just say out loud to yourself stop it

stop it talk to yourself like interrupt that thought just interrupt it don't let

it finish even if you're having a high high with something great happening I'm

not telling you not to be happy but also don't over sent sensationalize it don't

go tell everybody because then you're pulling yourself up you're being

tethered by that right I'm trying to what I'm saying is don't be this up down

yo-yo cut it just be like oh no like literally just just tell yourself

there's moments where I like I talk to myself all the time I like I'm I'm my

voice and so if there's moments where I think my voice is drawning out I will

say hey no this is what we're going to do now talk yourself through it it's

such a powerful thing to really just stop the thoughts just stop them and

take ownership and say stop thinking that no there's this uh person who used

to tell me that one of the things that she used to say to herself was cancel

cancel and it was a negative thought or something bad she would say to yourself

cancel cancel I'm canceling that thought out loud so find

something that interrupts it that's where you just start like we're not

trying to do the whole feat we're just trying to to break these habitual

patterns and also sometimes I quite honestly this nonsense stuff that we're

fed that really keeps us like just it just keeps us from being able to take

ownership over ourselves I think what's really interesting as well in that

cancel cancel example is you're almost talking to someone and that person is

yourself and as you were saying that I was thinking yeah I think the like the

fundamental underlying belief that you demonstrate and that that person's

demonstrating is that they are not their thoughts it's like they're talking to

someone else whereas most of us go through our life thinking that our

thoughts are us so if my brain starts going oh my God this is going to go so

badly and then it's going to happen like this and then I'm going to lose my job

and you think that's yourself and you don't think you could have a

conversation with that voice you know what I'm saying but you can interrupt

that voice like you have the ability to say stop I remember speaking to Mo Gord

on the podcast and he says that he's named his brain Becky so that he can do

that so that he can kind of detach from the thoughts and so he'll say Becky

he'll have a conversation with Becky which I think is kind of smart now I

think about it it's not a bad bad way of detaching from your toxic thoughts

talking yourself through things is actually good even in you know going

back even in training when we be put in scenarios like they they would they

would simplify things like in some scenarios like hey step one this step

two this step three this or they would create acronyms like you know I'm going

to make one up because I can't think of one like stop Target move

shift and they would teach you just say that to yourself as you're as you're in

this stressful situation like if they created like they would create scenarios

where there would be explosions attacks all right talk yourself and like

literally when you we would do let's say a scenario in Beltsville and we do an

ambush on they create a a system where we they do ambushes on us all right

fight yourself out of it they're to because you're so

overloaded with the stress of what's Happening um and even though you know

it's training you don't want to look like you don't want to look bad in front

of your peers you don't want to look like you don't know what you're doing

you want to do a good job and sometimes even though it's training the body

doesn't know it's training and thinks it's real life there's moments and

literally like you'd be in these tactical scenarios and you would talk to

yourself in your head and sometimes you could do it even out loud stop shift

move Target move Target take you know so I'm giving like a hypothetical example

but this ability to talk yourself through movements is also a very

powerful thing it can it can stop like this this this mass amount of

like the muck in your head and kind of clear it out so I I actually learned

that in training and they taught us like just tactical uh words sentences things

to say to ourselves that would just help H us habitually move through problems

Kinesis just keep just keep moving keep moving through the problem there's an

element of what you just said there though that raises another question

which is there's a reason why they were doing explosions in training because

they are trying to fully simulate and put you through the real world examples

that you're going to go through so that you develop some resilience and I was

thinking then you know we can talk about tactics and tricks and tips to do this

all we like but you've literally had to go through it in order to be able to

deal with it that's like the essence of the training you described so is there

not an element of this everything we're saying here where unfortunately you're

just going to have to go through some [ __ ] in life to develop the thick

skin because even when I think about my career in business I think if I had

heard on a podcast someone telling me H when bad [ __ ] happens just [ __ ] you

know like stay in the middle I don't think it would have been

enough to prepare me for the reality of the situation when you've got say 500

employees and you got to pay them all tomorrow and you look at the bank and it

says zero and you've got clients emailing you giving you [ __ ] for this or

this whatever how you how you all when our company got hacked in the early days

and all of my clients my biggest clients in the world biggest brands in the world

all got personalized abusive emails about their appearance at 3:00 a.m. in

the morning that was apparently from my business partner's email it was cently

meant to go to my PE but accidentally got said to them and waking up on that

morning as a 23 24 yearold there's really no words that can prepare me for

that but because I've been through it I could go through it again and I wonder

how much of this is actually in life you're just going to have to go through

some difficult [ __ ] because you've been through difficult [ __ ] but you have to

go through it there there's there's no exception the harder you work you you're

going to work so hard to avoid it which actually just makes you more afraid and

weaker words it's like it's just going to happen and being okay we mitigate as

much as we can through the circle of people what we choose to do what we

choose to surround ourselves with we understand that right the vest the

bulletproof vest can only cover so much of our body and then we understand that

we are vulnerable in other areas and you're going to have to go through it

even as a mom like one of the things is I want to give my daughter the best

tools so that she can problem solve and it's not just being able to feel the

stress it's being able to when you're dealing with a scenario like that you

can't just sit and be paralyzed by it you're like I have to respond to this

and you learn to cope you learn coping skills and strategies you're learning to

problem solve the only way you learn to problem solve is when you're dealing

with a problem if everything's Problem free you don't know how to problem solve

so one of the things I make sure with my daughter not even though she's still

very young is I will look at moments where she's frustrated let's say she's

trying to climb onto the bed I will let her as long as it's safe I will let her

be frustrated and cry and scream till she gets up on the bed I've seen her do

it I know she can do it so I will tell her like I will say work out the problem

there there's incremental things we can do in our

lives to allow ourselves to learn how to problem solve there's no escaping

problems for anyone there's no escaping hardship for anybody there's no escaping

trauma or tragedy for anybody there just isn't when you I think when you come to

terms with that like you're okay but it's when you can't come to terms with

it and you think like life's just bad for me life's picking on me my life is

hard my life is this my life is that you know you're not that special I just did

my second Ted Talk and I talked about the six Inhibitors that hold us back

hold people back and it was based off of all the mentors I did like hundreds like

which happened after I wrote my book when people writing in and one of the

biggest things that holds people back is the idea that I'm

special I'm special in that my problems are special my pain is special I'm so

unique nobody knows what I'm going through so when everything around me if

I'm that special why I can't figure my stuff out because I'm I'm not like

everybody else and when you do that when you have that narrative like that you

think of yourself in that way you are telling yourself I'm alone in the

world CU I'm special nobody can know what I'm going through or struggling

with or dealing with and and it's actually kind

of when I would talk with people and like you'd give them Solutions and

they're like no no no but that that won't work for me because of this or

this and that it was always like and I would tell them I'm like I say this with

all the love of my heart you're not that special if you if you recognize that

then you're going to realize that you're not alone in this world going through

all this stuff this stuff isn't just happening to you and there's Solace you

know after 911 you know I survived 911 I was one of the First Responders there I

don't even like to use the word survive I was there I live through it people ask

me you know how did you deal with the aftermath because you know you're

watching thousands of people die you almost die yourself s just to pause

there because that was an important point for me why don't you like to use

the word survive I like live through

why survive to me has a negative connotation it's not as powerful I don't

like it to me like I I live through survive

is this thing happened and I this is how it feels because I I I don't I'm trying

to articulate it feels like I I survive through it it's like no I I thrive

through that I live through that I thrive

through it survive makes me think I barely made it which technically I kind

of did but I don't care but one of the things that helped me get through it

when people like you know there trauma like you're watching truly you're

watching I watch thousand like thousands of people die people jumping

and like you can't do anything like you tried we try I tried so and then after

that we had search clean up and rescue efforts and I will tell you one of the

things that got me through it to the point where I barely dealt with any type

of real aftermath like PT or anything like

that I'm not saying I didn't get anything but what helped me through is I

wasn't that special I wasn't alone in it when you know you're not alone in the

world like you can get through anything but when you tell yourself that you are

that unique and that what is happening to you is just happening to you then all

your pain is special all your problems are special your trauma is

special and then nobody can help you cuz it's just you going through it how alone

is that and it's that mental shift of when you can hear other

people's stories or see what other people are going through and then you

that helps pull you through your stuff I will tell you that I'm not that special

has got me through so much I can see it in your face as you

talk and it's making me curious as to why this is

so personal cuz I'm not special and I think

I don't know I think it's a detriment when people think that they're that

special I think it takes you down there's a story here you're not telling

me I feel like I don't think it's a story we all think we're the sun right

and everything moves around us and when you are on that space when you think

you're that special you self-analyze you self you go in a lot

more and you would probably say well that's good eie is it is it really that

good for me to sit and analyze everything going on in my life or when I

over analyze I over assess I'm overly critiquing I'm so focused on myself do

you know what that actually does it actually you have higher rates and

anxiety and higher rates of depression because I am so self-focused

now I'm not saying when I say you're not that special I don't mean that you're

arrogant or narcissistic or self-absorbed I mean that you are so

self-focused that the outside world Fades and it's just you and whatever it

is you're dealing with how can you get out of that that's a very hard head

space to get out of why do they stay in that space in your opinion I don't think

that they realize that they're in that space I they're not listening like

sometimes you can even talk to people they're not listening to you why don't

they want to listen like why aren't they listening I I because they don't think

anything's wrong or sometimes they'll look to you and be like oh you're you're

you like you don't know what I'm going through or you don't realize here's the

thing you and I talking about stuff from an from a place where we're trying to

understand it objectively we're looking to not live that way where we're looking

to understand it and so we can share it with others but the only people that are

going to receive it are the people that watch this podcast and want

to and even then when they watch this they're going to pick and choose the

parts that work for them or the parts of this podcast that fit the narrative that

they tell themselves yes and I was reading

something over Christmas which is really friend of mine and I think it's part of

why I'm so interested in this subject it was called the courage to be disliked

and in the opening chapter of the book it confronts this it's this kid

basically arguing with this philosopher and the kid is saying to the philosopher

kind of exactly what we've said no I'm a victim of my life the things that

happened to me my trauma this is the way that I am and I don't believe I can

change and the philosopher is making the case to the kid that you can in fact

change and really the like Insight the thing the philosopher ends up saying to

this kid which spun my brain for a while and it's spinning my brain a little bit

is this idea that what happened to us doesn't determine our lives but we use

what happened to us to achieve a goal that we have

today now to put this into like a practical real

example if I am a kid that is 27 years old and I'm still in my mom's basement

and I'm not going out there and getting a job I might say yeah I want a job but

actually big being in my mom's basement is actually serving me in some way and

it might seem to be self-destructive to someone looking in but my mom's bringing

me my food they finally show me attention if I change I lose the

sympathy if I change I lose the attention and actually this attention

has gotten a little bit addictive this sympathy this place of victimhood has

gotten a little bit addictive to me in a way that I don't even know in a way

that's actually self-destructive in the near term

and the long term but at some subconscious level I'm actually like

addicted to my pain and suffering and it's funny because when I was so I read

the book and then I started writing because I like to read things then try

and write them into my own like language and I started thinking about someone in

my own life and uh it's just I finally figured out this individual in my life

that's been in my life for a long time who when you look at the actions you go

they're ruining their own life but when you dig deeper into their identity being

a heroic victim is everything to them and actually if I this person walked

into this room now and introduced themselves it would take 60 seconds for

them to get to a story of how they've been hard done by and how they've

overcome it but this means that help aid good decisions have had to always be

secondary to protecting this narrative that they're a victim and actually sorry

to going a bit of a rent here at one point they were a victim at one point

objectively they went through some really horrific horrible

things but the Predator's gone now so now they're looking for a predator and

it's ruined their entire life it's ruined their home their family their

finan financials because even when good things come come by good people come by

they find a way to make this person a predator and they find a way to make

them the heroic victim and so it really shifted my brain about like even my own

trauma and the narratives and this hero story I tell about myself I'm like maybe

I'm using what happened to me to serve a a goal I have today of projecting to the

world that I am filling the Gap whatever gives me validation and you know

reinforcement from people so anyway you know it reminds me a little bit of

um histrionic disorder or um where you pretend you're

sick it's like one of the disorders you pretend either you're sick or your child

is sick um because when you do that you get

a lot of attention and so if I'm a victim of something or I'm going through

something are you okay are you all right do you need something and it does

cultivate this attention whereas every if everything's okay that all goes away

and so I I think all of it it's people I think it's so many different things

people get comfortable they don't want to get out of it they don't think

anything is wrong it serves them nothing's wrong with my life who are you

to tell me it's like all these different layers and and when it's people close to

us it's hard and I just have surrendered that two things who am I to tell

somebody else how to live so if they think that that's the way they life

needs to be I do have a little bit I'm not that special so who am I to tell you

that you should live this way there's a little bit of or a lot of rather let

people live how they want to live it reminds me of what you were saying

earlier about identity and I was thinking of something I read recently

that said swads to the effective people would go to Great Lengths to destroy

things including themselves before they dare edit their own identity there's a

real element of Truth in that you're talking about identity and instrumental

mindsets and I wonder if there's a real risk to developing an identity because

you've got an identity Now secret service agent

NYPD strong woman doesn't take [ __ ] says it how it is

well you know so in the context of identity the identity mindset if we go

back it's it's that I'm special mindset I'm in an emotional state I'm special

that's like identity mindset that's how you know when you're talking to someone

if they're instrumental or identity if they're instrumental they're task

oriented they're moving they're trying to solve problems if they identity

they're stuck they're emotional I can't believe this I can't believe this

happening to me so with that when you can figure out what mind mindset

somebody is in then you can talk to them but you talk to them in the mindset that

they're in if somebody is instrumental I'm going to know this is a person

that's just like tell me what to do just get to the point I just wanted this this

and this and this there's no feelings there's no stuff involved there's no

emotions somebody's identity right they are it's about them

it's how it's affecting them typically again when we're very

self-focused uh higher depression higher anxiety because over analyzing things

we're in an emotional state so when someone's there it's good for you to

know because you know in that moment they're not listening to what I'm saying

they are stuck in their space now if I'm looking to progress the conversation

let's say they work for me I'm going to sit and listen to them let them offload

to a point to get them where I need them to be or to get them to get to um this

instruction this instrumental space like an agency like the US Secret Service it

was very instrumental nobody wants to hear you complaining get it done fix

this do this because they didn't really have the luxury of being like that cuz

if you are like that people die it's just like you got to you got to move on

but if your identity and where it's like you're really wanting other people to

understand you I'm not saying that we don't visit identity Land once in a

while but you it's not a great place to live either because you're so

self-focused that you can't function it's it's me me me me me but if you can

Master this which you can easily do when you talk to people you'll know that

person's instrumental they just need X Y and Z that person's identity your friend

is Identity the thing with them is their

identity almost all the time yeah that's when it becomes a

problem and I've got great empathy and sympathy because

defense can become someone's personality especially if at a younger age that

defense was their survival do you know what's interesting um and the Harvard

Business Review did a a study on this they wrote about this do you know that

the more you go through the less empathy you have so you

would think let's say you've been through your hardships you would think

that because you've been through that stuff you would have more empathy but as

you rise through the ranks you actually have less empathy because you've been

through it you've overcome it and you kind of look at people like can you

please get it together so yes and if you think about it it makes sense because

it's like get through this you I've gotten through this whereas if you're

dealing with someone who hasn't gone through it or is in the

lower uh ranks at work uh they've got more empathy cuz also think of it too as

you're going up in business you're dealing with so so many more people you

don't have the cognitive space or load to deal with everybody's stuff so

sometimes when people come to me my boss my boss and my my response is do you

know how much your boss is probably juggling it's not that they're a jerk

they're instrumental they're just trying to get stuff done and you being where

you are kind of lower in the hierarchy you're not dealing with as much trying

to juggle as much and so you're looking for more empathy you have more space

more time this person's up here they're trying to keep that ship from sinking so

that's where a lot of people sometimes get lost with their supervisors so it's

interesting too because you know I even noticed that for myself I try to have

empathy but there's moments where you're like man I'm you know it it can be you

want to control it on the inside but be like there's times where you're like can

we please just get it together like it's it's not that big of a deal I've

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van.com for $1,000 off on our previous conversation funnily

enough the most replayed moment in the conversation was where you talk about

the dangers of victimhood stop really yes yeah the most replayed moment wow I

was quite surprised I think people don't I I think most people don't want to be

there anymore you know because it's not working out for them it's not that's why

I think most people most people they're trying really hard most people who will

watch this podcast or or watch things similar to this they're really trying

hard and they're trying to to do better I do believe that and I think that's why

a moment like that because they're like I don't want to be here anymore just

help me get get the [ __ ] out you know I respect that because they're trying like

they're trying really hard as opposed to somebody who's just like I'm checked out

that really speaks to people just saying like I know this isn't working this

isn't where want to live this isn't where I want to be and it it it's it's

not getting me ahead in life you know I always again I live by this Credence if

if I go tomorrow am I okay to go and if it always set things right for me if

you've lived in a way where you're like I've done or tried to do these things

then you've lived a full life but being a victim prevents you

from being from living a full life if everyone is hurting you if everyone's

out to get you if everyone's doing something to you if everybody is sliding

you if if this person and that person how are you living a full life if you're

fighting everybody or pissed off at everybody because they disrespected you

they're not giving you what you need they didn't validate this validate that

how will you ever get anything done how will you ever be

instrumental it doesn't mean you need to be a CEO or a secret service agent

doesn't mean you need to be anything like that it whatever your journey is

like how will you ever achieve that if you're so easily distracted by all this

nonsense who says you have to have respect by everybody it's nice I I

welcome it but I'm not always going to get respect I can sit and check every

single box off I'll be respectful to you I'll be kind to you I'll hand my things

in our time I'll show up on time I'll do all these things check all those boxes

there are still no guarantees you'll give it to me I know I was a former cop

former agent I didn't always get it I was like I hope I get it but I

don't need it but we tell people you need this who says

who who says I need I need everybody's respect who and who am I to demand it

who says I need everybody to like me I don't want people to dislike me I'm not

going to do things to make people dislike me but I'm also like I can't

navigate my ship like that and then at the same time if you stop and think

about it when people like oh get everyone to like you be charismatic

pause who are you making that about you you don't really care about the other

person it's me I want you to like me I want you to think I'm charismatic comes

back to me me me me me me how about there's a little less me and more of how

can I be of service to this person how can I help this person how can I be more

generous generous to others how can I give more instead of take so that I can

feel fulfilled it's all about me and my fulfillment my

identity where am I going me me me I think we need a little less of that and

how about us us us how about how can I help help other people how can I be of

service how can I be genuine and that rig this whole thing give me tips so

everybody likes me give me tips so I'm the smartest person in the the room if

I'm the smartest person in the room Stephen I'm I'm in trouble I want to be

the biggest dummy like because I'm not learning anything from other people and

who might have think I'm this why why would you want that you know I you see

this marketing stuff come up and we feed people garbage and then we wonder why

everybody's confused why everybody has a void because telling them you need more

you need more you are enough you are steady you are good stop

listening to all that be a genuine human being try to do

the right thing by people be careful CU not everyone's out to do the best thing

for you cuz people in pursuit of their own self-interest they will screw you

over and that's okay just don't be shocked when it happens it happens but

move through steady and focus on being of service to

others everything like bring it back and it's like stop thinking about you I

promise you you will have a better life it'll be calmer it'll be quiet you'll be

less depressed less anxious less just because it's not all

you you're in it with everybody else there's something really

interesting I mean there's so many interesting things you said there I mean

the two kind of highlight points for me were this idea

of play the long game of just trying to serve other people and you'll achieve

your objectives versus trying to do the shortterm game of maybe being nicey and

caring too much about how you appear which might help you maybe in the moment

but it's almost a form of long-term sabotage and I guess this brings me to

the question which is like should we try and make people like

us no because it's

fake cuz it's manipulation that's why I'm who am I

doing it for if I'm trying to get you to like me is that who you want or do you

want the person who's going to come on this podcast and just have a genuine

conversation and do her best to give you some valuable information to help people

who do you want you want me to be like I hope Stephen likes me I hope he thinks

I'm smart I hope Stephen thinks I'm a good guest I hope Stephen invites me

back is that what you want and who did I just make all that about do I give a

[ __ ] about you and your podcast no clearly I just care about

Evie that's the problem because I'm manipulating you to fulfill myself

that's where it goes wrong if somebody likes you it'll be genuine we don't

manufacture it it's disingenuous people feel

it I'm trying to be charming and Charis charismatic first of all major red flag

for narcissistic personality disorder number one really sure A lot of them are

in fact when you see that always ask yourself why is what is motivating this

person I always think like what is motivating this person so if as I I sit

across from you what's motivating you is you want to do a good podcast you have

millions of people who listen you want to give them good content period the end

you you seem to be a big fan of being authentic right as a person I just want

to be a genuine and I don't want to be a [ __ ] artist nobody wants to be

bullshitted I've experienced it nobody likes it

and it's not being authentic it's just being

genuine because also like you can't just walk into a room I'm like I'm going to

be me and whoever likes it likes it like good luck with that right you want to

adapt to the environment and to people you're with and what mindset that they

have and talking to them in a way that they understand not you so adap that's a

bit more adaptability and and connecting with people even when I talk to

businesses a lot of times one of the big things is and they're learning this a

lot of businesses are moving away from being transactional

making the sale and just trying to get these short-term goals and what they're

shifting toward which is smart is long-term relationships with people

because if you have a long-term relationship with a client and they

genuinely like you not because you charm them or you trick

them but because they genuinely like you they're genuinely going to want to stay

with you and they're not going to want to leave and go do business somewhere

else that's why being genuine works and you can be genuine and disagree with

someone too that holds better people people Vibe

other people quite a bit and they feel it and if they feel

your nonsense and they feel like you're tricking them or you know using tactics

even when I sometimes I give Keynotes and and I'll tell them I'm like I'm not

here to give you tips tricks or techniques I'm not here for that I was

like can I ask you a question do you like when people use techniques on

you no do you like it when people use tricks on you no so why would you do

that and why would you think that's going to take you

places it'll take you somewhere short term long term people going to drop

you I was um watching your BBC Maestro recording which by the way is fantastic

and I highly recommend anybody who hasn't seen it to go and check it out um

it's basically like a it takes everything you're saying it kind of

turns it into a bit of a Course and there was a line you said in it which I

thought was quite interesting which is I wish you as much rejection as possible

because that will increase yourself confidence you also saying that in the

BBC Myer piece that confidence is the number one thing you get asked

about I wish you as much rejection as possible that kind of goes back to what

we were saying earlier about how like going through difficult [ __ ] is um the

best way to build a thicker skin but who on Earth want to go through

rejection who who on Earth what kind of psychopath is going to self- elect to go

through rejection person who wants to build

their resilience because when you deal with it

so the BBC mro course is the art of influence how to influence others so

going back to the ethos of that course

was and I and I say it at the beginning I'm not here to give you tips tricks or

techniques because that's not going to influence people we're not trying to

trick people or manipulate people to get things out of them because that's not

going to help anybody in the long term it won't help you in the long term

influence is having the ability to have people to want to be around us to have

people to want to work with us to have people who to want to talk to us that's

what influence is genuine influence and like how we push that out there also in

in the class where I talk about rejection because we split it up into

certain part parts and one of the parts was your ability to understand yourself

kind of like you can't influence other people if you don't understand yourself

and so part of that is how resilient are you how steady are you and you don't

build those things unless you deal with rejection unless you deal with people

pushing back maybe be a psychopath and embrace the things that everybody else

is too terrified to embrace everyone's so scared of being rejected so why don't

you be the Deviant don't be like everybody else and be like I'm ready for

it I'm good with it because the more you deal with it the better you are at

dealing with it and you're going to get it anyway on that point of better

understanding yourself the the other thing I found was this thing you talk

about which is the animal will which is a framework that helps people understand

themselves by finding out what their communication style is I'll put this

animal wheel on the screen for people that are watching on video but for

people that can't see cuz they're listening sptify apple or somewhere else

what can you explain to me what this animal wheel is so that was created by

researchers Dr Lawrence and Emily Allison they're actually in the UK and

they created a way to break Behavior down behavior of people they actually

watch thousands of hours of interview tapes law enforcement intelligence and

they were coding people's behavior so basically they were like what behavior

is this person so there's two important things one is we don't label people we

lab label Behavior you label Behavior because people change people are fluid

for the most part people are fluid so I need to look at who do I have across

from me in this moment so how they identified behavior of people they G

they gave them four animal archetypes lion Monkey Mouse T-Rex lion

is someone who's in charge setting the agenda I'm in control that's lion when

you have your meetings with your team and you're the one talking and your team

sitting listening you're Ling in that moment he's in charge setting the agenda

Mouse is a person who is patient looking to learn they're

trying to get information they're eager they're humble seeking

guidance it can be the people on your team who are sitting quietly because

they're trying to learn probably in some sense right now you and I switch back

and forth from lion and then our viewers they're all Mouse they're all here

humble seeking guidance what can I learn that's that's that but it's fluid now a

person who is monkey monkey is an animal where you're social you're warm you're

talking to people Hi how are you good how are you that's what that is right

and then they're probably going to be that back to you right Bad Monkey which

you probably you probably get a lot is hey Steve I got a great idea can I just

share it with you hey let me just put you something real quick uh that's

pleading that's desperate like that's really wanting something now the other

animal is T-Rex T-Rex which is something I tend to lean a little bit more towards

which I work very hard not to be but that's a person who um is direct Frank

and forthright it's also a person who's like sounds just like the animal you're

more ready to fight like something happens and you're like let's go um

there's a good version of that there's a bad version of that all of these have a

good and bad version but that's T-Rex the key to people is not for you to

dominate the key to people is for you to identify the person in front of you in

that moment and then adapt to that behavior so if I've got for example if

you're a lion and I'm trying to be liing we're both competing nothing's going to

happen like you're going to be talking and I'm going to be trying to talk over

you it doesn't work but if I see okay right now Steph's liing he's the one

talking he's guiding the conversation he's doing this meeting I'm going to go

Mouse I'm going to be humble seeking guidance yes Stephen I'm listening I

want to learn so the wheel actually helps you identify who you have in front

and then where do you go based on what you have in front now if I'm dealing

with someone who's monkey I go to this event you're going to this event people

are talking to you when you have monkey you also display monkey which is warm

social respectful however you want to be aware of like when people are the bad

version of that which is they're trying to sell you something they want

something from from you you maintain that warm social respectful but you

realize I've got Bad Monkey in front of me I need to keep distance and and T-Rex

is if I've got someone who's T-Rex uh it just means being direct Frank and forth

right but it also teaches you how to deal with another T-Rex that story you

told me earlier that guy that you checked that you had checked he was

being T-Rex he was attacking you behind your back he's still attacking you cuz

you can attack somebody not to their face but behind their back you gossip

you slander you hurt their reputation that's T-Rex that's bad T-Rex by the way

so you had bad T-Rex and then you came in I don't think you were bad T-Rex you

came in as good T-Rex but you were Frank forthright and direct you said hey I

heard about that stuff you just said outside to this person if you have

something to say please say it to me you actually good T-Rex you address them and

what happens is when you have T-Rex you have to be T-Rex too you just

can't be bad T-Rex where you're patronizing sarcastic and insulting

people but you come in and you be direct Frank and forthright and you address the

person it's okay to address people it's okay not to let stuff slide so long as

you are regulating your behavior but the way you do this is these animals help

you realize who do I have in front of me it also helps you realize who am I more

I know when I see this I'm T-Rex hands down I have to work on it but some

people when we talked about people who are very subservient or weak or

dismissive or avoidant for them their Mouse bad Mouse and when you realize

like I go Mouse a lot then that tells you you know what I need to be a little

bit more line in my life so on this wheel the reason why it's a wheel is

because the behavior that I'm getting is on the outside and the response that I

should give them is the thing on the inside is that is that right there's

four animals each animal has a good version and a bad version good version

lion is I'm in charge I'm setting the agenda I'm a boss who's really just

trying to guide and Lead his team okay bad version of lion which is outside

that Outer Perimeter okay dogmatic demanding rigid this is the way I want

it this is the way it's going to be done because I want it like this so how do I

know using this wheel which response I should give so you're telling me that on

the outside of the wheel is the bad version of that animal and on the inside

of the wheel is the good version of that animal how do I find which response to

give based on the behavior so first you always want to stay in the goodwi you

always want to stay as a good animal like you don't want people to pull you

out and that's where it talks about self-regulation cuz it's very easy for

people to pull you into their bad wheel their bad animal okay and so that's one

one so you always want to stay in that center part okay so if I've got it works

two ways if I've got lineing in front of me I have to be Mouse because the

conversation W work we flip so if I've got line in front of me you're you're

you're you're you're setting the agenda you're controlling the conversation I

have to allow it to happen to you here's why if I try to talk or cut you off

you're not listening in fact it's going to piss you off even more in fact there

was a a big um Beverage Company I won't say which a coffee company very

well-known one that came to me and said we have a problem with clients they come

in we give them the wrong version of what they ask for and they sometimes

they lose their mind they they had one client that came in customer and he they

like the the manager said I thought they were going to assault the person behind

the register um we actually fixed their drink and they were still just being

very belligerent according to that wheel that person was T-Rex T-Rex so attacking

punitive sarcastic and they would flow back and forth between T-Rex and Li cuz

they were trying to control the conversation they were like we fixed the

we apologized but it kept escalating what did I do what did we do wrong what

they did wrong was they kept interrupting and trying to stop the

behavior of that person that person was in this aggressive State lion SL T-Rex

and when you have somebody there you have to let them go because by

interrupting the person and telling them calm down we're going to this what does

that do it aggravates people more let me vent let me say what I need to say one

of the ways you deal with that kind of behavior is let them go so long as

you're not in danger or someone's trying to hurt you Let It Go when they are done

then you can talk but they're not listening to you that's why the wheel

helps cuz if I've got a lion and he's trying to control he's being dogat

dogmatic trying to control the conversation then I come in and say hey

look C down I got you another drink I'm not letting you talk I'm competing with

you it doesn't work that's why escalates let people go be L be Mouse it's hard to

be Mouse cuz people's ego won't let them be Mouse it's hard to sit there and take

it but if you can put your ego to the side which you should put to the side in

fact we had a saying in the interview room check your ego at the door because

if you bring your ego in you're done so you want to put yourself aside

and be able to manage the behavior but that requires your your ability to be

like I know what I'm saying and this it always goes back to I don't need to

address every little thing because I feel I'm being slided I see what I have

I've got a line in front of me let him finish or her I'm going to be Mouse I'm

going to sit and listen humble seeking guidance and then when they're done now

I talk because also they're ready to listen but when you keep interrupting

people they're not ready to hear you I mean you see that a lot with um bad cops

right so they they pull someone over to arrest them and the person becomes a

T-Rex that they're trying to arrest they start insulting them and then the cop

ends up getting a disciplinary case because they react like a T-Rex they

take the bait if the person's calling you a FY Z whatever they then start

doing it back and elbowing them and getting aggressive and then you see

these other examples of really exceptional police where they're being

verbally insulted and they have total composure yeah and it's like they're

unfaced it's cuz they're ego and they really try hard all in the US in the UK

you have an National police force that means it's one hiring process One Police

Commissioner you know one one person of authority in the United States there's

177,000 police depart law enforcement entities they all have their own leader

the problem is their training is different so for example when I went

into the NYPD they gave me a psychology test to take uh it's it's something it's

something similar if not the mmpi 2 which is the Minnesota multiphasic

personality inventory what they try to see is what behaviors I have am I

narcissistic am I hypochondriac what issues are going on within me to avoid

scenarios like that you have to be steady because people are going to pull

you into their nonsense people you can't sit there in law enforcement and be

baited if you get baited it's a problem you shouldn't be wearing the uniform you

shouldn't be wearing the badge I'm not saying you sit need to sit there and be

hurt by someone or take physical abuse but you need to be able to control your

mouth and your behavior even if your mouth is you said something earlier

which I think is an important point of nuance here which is it doesn't mean you

have to be passive it just means that when you as you said decide to burn it

down you're doing it intentionally not being controlled by some emotional

Puppet Master if you're in law enforcement and I was like nobody was no

first of all nobody's happy to see you firemen fire they're happy to see them

no one's happy to see law enforcement I've never been greeted in the interview

room or even anywhere out there where they're like hey special agent come on

in so glad you're here they're not happy to see you because a somebody's getting

arrested B something bad happened C you're about to arrest somebody that

they care about it's it's it's all bad news so you have to go in there

understanding that but if you're offended you're looking to be respected

that's that badge is not for that you are there to be a peacekeeper and you

have to manage your behavior I remember NYPD Academy they would take us to the

FDR Highway and it would the FDR runs around the east side of Manhattan by the

East River and sometimes they take us they take you there when go running and

they have us run like long distances people are driving by you doing 5060 M

an hour when I say they're blowing past you they're blowing past you and this

was pre 911 when I was going through the academy they're spitting on you or

trying to spit on you cursing you giving you the finger calling you a pig calling

you all sorts of names so the first time I experienced this I'm

young we're running and somebody hollered something at us I said

something I actually stopped running and turned around and started yelling back

and my instructor the PT instructor the police officer grabbed me he's like you

don't do that he's like this isn't this isn't for you if you're going to do that

you have to manage yourself because when you go out onto the street people will

hate you and if you can't control yourself you're not going to be able to

manage this and that was the first time I learned like that is not the way you

earn respect you need to manage yourself so controlling others starts with

self-control yeah also what does that say about me that I'm quick to respond

to something like that in the study you referenced about the animals I read that

the interviewers who were most successful at getting information were

able to switch between different communication Styles interviewers who

were most successful understood the suspect's commun communication style as

well as their own and it made me think to be successful do I then need to be

able to adopt all of these communication Styles context dependent because I can

think a lot of a lot of people in my life that basically don't have a line or

a T-Rex in them they just give Mouse everywhere they go I can think of some

people who I could just never imagine a world where they were demanding dogmatic

rigid in charge guiding leading Frank forthright direct attacking sarcastic

they are just like nice nice okay so when you're dealing with them you're

going to look at if we're going to use the animals I mean more how do those

people be successful if I'm they're not they're not successful they're going to

have a hard time because they've made themselves they've suppress themselves

so much for whatever reason they're they can't lead no one there I'm going to

tell you this there's nothing wrong with mouse actually if you had to default to

any one of those animals Mouse would be it Mouse is King

I love mice I I think everybody loves M they're the most likable people they are

and monkeys but yes but Mouse is good because you're humble seeking guidance

um it means that you're saying less it means you're listening you're also

gathering information so if I'm trying to figure Stephen out I'm going to get

more information from Stephen when I'm not talking and when I ask good

questions rather than me talking a lot of people think I need to be lying in

charge setting the agenda you can be and there's times for that like if you're a

leader you need to be lying from time to time you do but Mouse overall is the one

who gets the most it's the one who gets the most information so long as you're

good Mouse good Mouse is humble seeking guidance Stephen tell me what you

looking for a partnership okay help me understand what matters to you most and

I shut the [ __ ] up and I'm going to let Stephen show me everything he cares

about his values his beliefs I'm going to understand Stephen and I'm going to

learn a lot about him so that I can speak more intelligently to Stephen

about what Steph cares about not what I care about what you care about

however you also don't want to be the bad version of mouse and that's where

it's weak submissive avoidant and this is where you become that and this is

where people pray and victimize you I can be

Mouse I can ask questions I can learn but I want to make sure that I don't

cross over to the malignant part of that which is I'm so conflict averse and so

afraid of it that I will make myself completely small to the point where

other people will just steamroll me can mice be leaders cuz I know some mice and

I if I was employing those people I would absolutely never make someone a

leader who hasn't got a little bit of line in them it would be irresponsible

it would frankly be irresponsible it would be unfair on them because they're

going to be challenged by the people that they are leading and in order for

them to withstand those challenges in a calm composed as it says on this little

wheel in charge guiding and leading way like a lion does they're going to need

to have a bit line in them in them you want to be all of those

animals you want to balance of all of them that's what you want to strive for

you want a balance of all those in the good sense right the good version of

those animals you but you need to know when am I supposed to be lying so if I'm

a a leader if I'm a a business person if I'm if you have you're selecting someone

to put in charge of a group they have to have some Lion in them they can't all be

Mouse because no one's going to listen what if I'm negotiating a pay raise if

you're negotiating a pay raise first of all you're going to come in with all

your homework done you're not going to come in and go I think I deserve a raise

I feel like I deserve a raise you know I've been here for a long time you're

going to come in with a list of facts and you're going to say I

closed this deal and made this much money I closed this account with this

person I made this much money I did this in a year I generated this amount of

money I'm going to list the facts so I can articulate to you why you should

give me that raise that's on you I think I feel I believe and then your boss can

turn around be like well I think I feel I believe that you shouldn't get one

it's so ambiguous when you come in with facts it's a hard thing to fight now

when you're going into that meeting if I'm the one asking for the raise I'm

going to go in as lion I'm in charge I'm setting the agenda because I'm the one

asking for a raise so I'm going to come in with my facts methodical I'm going to

be good liing sir hi Stephen uh I just wanted to talk to you I I I I made a I'm

looking to increase my compensation here well now you're just bad

Ling you want to let the guy even if it here's the thing let's assume it's no

you're like in your head you're like there's no

way you're going to let the person talk you're going to let the person feel

heard even if it's like a hard note because what's most important is to let

them feel like you actually listened but what if I say no to you then what do you

do who do you become do you become Mouse I just said absolutely so I would say

okay i' would say could you explain to me why I don't want to give you a pay

Rise um I I think I think you know when I think

about who I'd rather have that money me you I think me well so you've got

actually T-Rex right there but how do you deal with it so if it's

T-Rex if it's a person who's trying to kind of push back and fight you you have

to deal with T-Rex one of the things that they teach

you with the animal Wheels the only time you swap is mouse and line cuz two

people can't be in charge so that's the only time well when you have T-Rex one

of the things they teach you is you have to deal with T-Rex so you have to be the

good T-Rex which is Frank T-Rex so you said that you prefer the money go to you

and not to me okay so bad T-Rex to remind people is attacking sarcastic

etcad T-Rex be bad T-Rex would be like well you're an idiot you're ridiculous

like you're a jerk and good T-Rex is Frank forthright and direct yeah so

you're saying you're not going to give me a raise because you want to keep all

the money for yourself correct and not for

me okay well I don't know if I can continue to stay here if that's going to

be the case right you can I've been here for x amount of years I've generated x

amount of dollars and so that's going to be an issue for me in my ability to stay

and work here I'm being direct Frank and forthright address people there's you

can address people and it doesn't have to be ugly

now again you can't control their behavior but you can control yours so

you just want to make sure that that a person who's behaving like that that you

don't get pulled into that behavior you just want to stay on the good wheel of

it it's all self-regulation but you also don't want to be afraid to deal with

people that's why dealing with rejection and and and tough personal ities and

hard people like it's good practice every time somebody like that comes

along I want you to think I'm practicing I'm practicing I'm practicing don't be

afraid of it and then it also allows you to work on your T-Rex because if you

have a hard time with it it allows you to work that muscle it allows you to

learn how to deal with people who get in your face while managing yourself that

you're going to have folks like that I think it's what I was listening to One

researcher one in every 25 people are either going to be a psycho they're

going to have antisocial uh personality disorder which

is like psychopath sociopath type of behavior or narcissistic personality

disorder one of these extreme behaviors which lack empathy one in 25 people that

means one out of every 25 people you meet are going to be trying to slap you

around buckle up we have a closing tradition on this

podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing

who they're going to be leaving it for and the question that has been left for

you in the Diary of a CO is on your

deathbed what do you want your legacy to be I

want

to have given something to the

world I want to have added value to the world rather than taken from it that's

what I would like on my deathbed and I think

also I just wanted to have lived a good life when I say good I don't mean

Problem free or anything like that I mean just I've lived it to my

fullest and I can I can leave the world with that

peace everybody needs to go listen to your BBC my course it's really fantastic

it's um there's there's a lot of of courses on there but but I think your

stands out for so many reasons you actually pull in some experts who have

trained you on various things in the past to be part of that course so I'll

link that below but also this book has been an absolute Revelation to so many

people I think in part because it's so unbelievably easy to read for everyone

you don't need to be a super Advanced psychologist or Professor like you are

to understand all of these strategies and tactics um and it has everything I

think if I was in the um contents page and just to give people a

flavor of the subjects that you talk about it's everything from overcoming

fear mental resilience if you must fight then fight things we've talked about

today the the parts about how to influence people the subjects about

everybody lying all the stuff we've talked about and so so much more is in

this book so I recommend if you haven't read it I know a lot of people have

because they tag me in it all over the place um I highly recommend you read the

book becoming bulletproof life lessons from a secret service agent thank you so

much thank you for full of wisdom and um you remind me of so many things that I

seem to quickly forget um every time we speak and you're helping so many people

and the Legacy that you aspire to have is most certainly the Legacy that you're

on course to create by everything that you do by the millions of people that

you've served and there's something about you that's very very special

there's some sort of relatability there's a wisdom there's a frankness and

a no [ __ ] but then there's also the balance and the nuance and the

understanding that the truth is often somewhere in the middle which I think is

incredibly important for people so thank you for being you are and doing all that

you do it's a privilege to speak to you once again and I hope we speak again in

the future I appreciate you thank you Stephen

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