Original subtitles

[ Man ] I never did anything like that,

I just take pictures of somebody's window.

That's not such a great achievement.

What makes anyone think that I'm any good?

Iam actually, sometimes, very good.

But I shouldn't brag about it.

When I consider all the beautiful things that have been done,

my own achievements are rather minor.

I'm not carried away by the greatness of Mr. Leiter.

He's a minor figure and does not deserve...

to have...

a story about him.

On the other hand, what can you do?

[ Chuckling ]

You could start--

You could start the thing with that.

{ Man #2 Clears Throat ]

Okay.

Just tell me "action."

[ Man #3] Action, Max. [ Max ] All right.

“Though he originally came to New York...

to become a painter,

Saul Leiter circulated as a photographer,

who during the late '50s to the '80s made his living by fashion assignments.

With what one writer has called...

‘his disdain for self-promotion, '

Leiter dismisses the idea that his personal street pictures,

a great archive from the period only now coming to light,

have anything new or noteworthy to show us.

This sincere opinion is mistaken.

To say that he flourishes at the top,

in the Mount Olympus of New York photography, is saying a great deal.

He's right up there with the amazing heights of photographic history itself.

He's more abstract than many,

he's more constructive than several,

but he's also more soulful than a great many.

Let's hope that this shy artist...

will be reconciled to the admiration that is only now,

belatedly and justifiably bestowed upon his art."

Basta. [ Chuckles ]

[ Saul ] Where did I get my first camera?

I nagged my mother when I was quite young, and she bought me--

Whenever I wanted something that I enjoyed or liked,

I turned to my mother.

My father was not the person to approach...

for something that gave me pleasure.

And I can't remember why, I thought I'd like a camera...

and my mother brought me something that was called a Detrola.

It's a kind of plastic little camera.

And occasionally I would take a picture and I'd send the, uh--

the film off to be developed somewhere,

I don't know,

and I remember ordering...

a blue print.

They made blue prints. [ Chuckling ]

And I think it cost 25 cents to have a roll developed.

But I didn't do a lot of it.

It wasn't something...

that I, uh, was very serious about.

I think when I got to know Richard Pousette-Dart and Richard did photography,

and Richard fixed cameras--

He liked to do all kinds of things.

I started, I think, to maybe think...

that there was the possibility--

I can't remember what I thought,

but I began to take photography more seriously,

to think maybe it could be a way of earning a living.

Although I wasn't quite--

When I look back on my life...

and how badly prepared I was for living in the world,

I was astonished that I had the nerve...

to have the illusion that I could manage to survive.

[ Man Chuckling ]

I don't know what gave me the idea...

that there was any hope for me.

My mother was sending me some money, kept me afloat.

My apartment, I think, cost $32 a month...

or something like that.

And then I began to get some work.

Well, at some point I began to use color, because--

And I discovered that they came in boxes, you know,

you bought a roll of color, you had it developed,

that you didn't have to-- you didn't have to cut it up,

it already came in little boxes, slides.

And that was quite nice.

And I liked what I saw. I enjoyed looking at some of my color pictures,

I thought they were rather nice.

And so I saw nothing wrong.

And of course some people thought it was a waste of time...

that I was taking color pictures.

“What are you gonna do with all of these slides?

Why don't you get rid of them?

Why don't you this? Why don't you that?"

[ Man ] What did you do with them?

Well, I kept them in cabinets.

There was a fire when a lot of them were sprayed.

Uh--

But the point is, I enjoyed doing it...

and I didn't see-- I didn't share the opinion of those people.

And the truth of the matter is,

there have always been people who like color.

It's not as if I was the only person.

I've been described as being a pioneer. Am 1a pioneer?

I don't know that I'm a pioneer.

I think eventually it'll turn out that many people did color.

I mean, I think if you know enough about photography,

you realize that...

nothing is really that new.

If you really knew what has been done and tried by other people...

you'd realize that nothing is terribly new.

[ Man ] Does it annoy you that people call you a pioneer?

No, I'm not annoyed.

Maybe I am, maybe I'm not.

Maybe I'm part of a small group.

I don't know. I don't care.

I don't mind one way or the other.

[ Chuckles ] [ Chuckles ]

[ Saul ] There's too much, isn't there? [ Woman ] There's a lot.

There's just too much stuff.

[ Woman ] What's this? Let's see. I'm old and tired.

And I need a rest.

And no one lets me rest.

[ Saul ] Oh, that's it.

It's empty. What?

It's empty, except for some cords.

Yeah?

It's connected to this. Yeah.

He's photographing us.

What is he doing? [ Laughs ]

That maniac.

It's all Margit's fault.

It's my fault?

Yeah, it's all your fault.

You're nice to people and it's your fault.

I bought this at--

I like these.

These are old English--

I think it was 48 cents, which I thought was reasonable.

[ Margit ] Are those slides?

- What? - Are they slides?

No. They're boxes...

from things...

that Soames and I bought.

See?

But they're all empty, but I don't want to throw them away.

Okay. You can take them upstairs.

Okay.

This, I think, can be thrown out.

It had a stick.

He's documented...

the most sordid aspects of my life.

[ Saul Chattering, Indistinct ]

[ Man ] Do you think one of the reasons there's so much stuff around here...

is that it's-- there are so many memories?

Well, you know, if you're a painter and you do things...

and you're a photographer and you do things and you do stuff...

and no one sees it, no one buys it, no one takes it away,

and you have it around and you don't destroy it...

you end up with too much stuff.

You know what I mean?

It's not hot enough.

So I think I will work, it'll be a project.

I will see if I can empty this place out,

maybe.

If I can't, I can't.

[ Man ] Do you want to get rid of all of it?

No, I don't want to get rid of it,

but I want it somewhere where I don't see it.

And Margit had suggested that I put things in storage, and I told her I didn't want to.

She thought I should put Soames's paintings in storage.

And I've heard too many stories...

about storage being a place where people lose things.

Things are stolen from storage.

And I don't care to have that happen if I can avoid it.

You know?

So what will you do with it all? I don't know.

I'm not supposed to worry about it.

I'm allowed not to worry.

I think that I'm allowed to paint a little bit and to do what I do,

and not to lie awake worrying about everything.

[ Man ] If you do pack all this stuff away, will you miss it?

No. I can make new stuff.

I paint. In a short time I could have new disorders.

No, I'm not--

I'm amused by things. I've acquired things.

T like owning certain things.

But then I'm not obsessed with them.

Soames used to feel bad...

when we had to sell certain things.

I figured that it would be...

you own something and it goes to other people.

When you die, you can't take everything with you.

You can't take anything with you.

[ Man ] You never wonder about any kind of legacy or--

What does legacy mean?

Do I feel that I have a message of goodwill for all humanity?

I mean, what's my legacy?

I'm a photographer, I paint, I take--

I make some paintings. I take some pictures.

I had a-- If I didn't have another book,

I would be pleased that I had the little book that I have,

which seems to have touched certain people or moved people or aroused.

I think that was nice.

Am 1a heroic figure,

a giant straddling across...

the mountains of photography?

I don't think so.

[ Chuckling ]

Well, my family-- my father's family,

hundreds of people died in the Holocaust.

But I did tell him one day that I wasn't--

[ Chuckles ]

I think I said something very unkind,

like that I didn't plan to be a professional Jew for the rest of my life.

[ Chuckles ]

It's not a nice thing to say to your father,

who's a great Talmudic scholar.

A light in the diaspora.

I had the talent for it but eventually I turned against it...

and got fed up with the whole religious world...

and all the preoccupations with purity and nobility...

and observance.

I wanted to be free of those things.

But sometimes when I think about it,

I think that we live in an insane world...

where there are all kinds of people...

who have different notions of God,

who manage to know what he wants,

who have carefully transcribed his written--

[ Chuckles ]

And yet people believe in it and order their lives around it. Hmm.

I wrote a poem called "The Ways to God."

I wrote this when I think I was 14 or 15. It's a long poem.

“The ways to God are worn and thin...

and loveliness is laughing sin."

[ Chuckling ]

And it goes on from there.

That's pretty good, when I think of it.

The ways to God are worn and thin.

But there is this crazy thing in the world we live in.

My father from time to time descended into, uh,

unkindness.

The Leiter family is not as familiar...

with the notion of kindness...

as I believe they might have or should have been.

[ Chuckling ]

Greatness was important,

great scholarship was important.

Intellectual achievement was important.

Knowing was important.

Knowing a great deal was important.

Kindness?

Well, if it interfered--

If kindness interfered...

with...

the pursuit of knowledge...

and greatness and learning and scholarship,

too bad.

Get rid of it.

[ Man ] Do you not like, even a tiny bit,

the idea of having a film about yourself?

I'll tell you what I feel.

I have allowed you--

‘Cause I didn't do it before.

I have not given you permission, yet,

to do a film about me.

I've allowed you to take pictures and to talk to me.

However, you have no official right... [ Chuckling ]

to make a film about me...

until I see what you've done.

Now, maybe when I see it, I'll think,

"Oh, my God. That's very bad."

I don't know.

Uh, I mean, I think I'm being sincere...

when I say that I've never been driven.

I-I don't--

I didn't expect to have a book on my work. That's the truth.

Did I think that one day I'd have a book?

I didn't know that I'd have a book.

I told you this before, a book was for Cartier-Bresson,

for Walker Evans, for Atget,

for Kertész, whose work I love.

And I didn't walk around feeling that I was an important--

I had not spent my life feeling important.

[ Saul ] What does that mean?

[ Man ] Yeah, I don't know.

Do you feel important? Never.

So do you think there's a chance that I will make this film...

and you will say that I can't use it?

Well, I like to think I'm not gonna do that.

I might not care for the way I look these days,

because I think that I looked better when I was younger,

but maybe I'm being unfair to the way I look now.

Who knows? [ Chuckling ]

Shall we get some lunch? Yes.

You Know, you walk down the street, and you realize,

when you're 80, you look in a window...

and there's this old guy walking along with you,

and you realize that's who you are.

[ Chuckling ]

[ Chuckling ]

I like the hat.

There was a time when photographs weren't taken very seriously.

Matisse said somewhere photographs are really suitable as documents.

He didn't consider them as potentially works of art.

I read somewhere recently that almost from the very beginning...

- certain people were showing photographs-- - [ Man ] Really?

[ Saul ] As worthy of being included...

ina artistic world.

[ Man ] Did you enjoy being part of it all...

when shows were happening at MoMA and colleagues--

I didn't appreciate properly...

the importance of my being included in, uh--

in the MoMA show.

Some of my friends, I think, were jealous,

but I didn't understand. [ Shutter Clicks ]

I have sometimes overlooked the fact...

that something was actually of some importance.

You know what I mean? I do.

I was in The Always Young Stranger at the Modern Museum.

I thought it was nice.

Were people jealous of you? Maybe, I don't know.

I mean, I wasn't-- they weren't particularly--

[ Chuckling ]

They didn't make me feel that they were pleased...

that I had been chosen too.

You know what I mean?

Because you were friends with other photographers, or colleagues--

I wasn't that friendly with photographers.

I knew Eugene Smith, who I think is a great photographer.

So you never felt part of a movement, or part of a scene?

No.

Well, I Knew I lived on 10th Street.

Some people now write,

and they connect my work with abstract expressionism,

or they point out--

I knew Richard, he was a friend.

I went to openings. I saw Jackson Pollock.

I saw Rothko. I saw Newman.

I saw-- They were around.

They were not mysterious figures.

De Kooning was standing at the corner.

He asked me not to photograph him so 1 didn't.

I was about to take his picture, he said "no."

So I didn't take it.

I didn't think it was terribly important to photograph him.

I said to a friend of mine recently...

that a window covered with raindrops...

interests me more... [ Chuckling ]

than a photograph of a famous person.

Not that a photograph of a famous person...

can't be a nice photograph too.

But-- [ Chuckling ]

Something about raindrops.

The other day it was raining and I was taking some pictures of them...

and I-- the camera did something funny and began underexposing.

And I liked the underexposed raindrops...

better than the lighter ones.

No, it-it's--

I think, you know, everything-- everything is suitable to be photographed.

Everything is a photograph.

We live in a world today where almost everything is a photograph.

And the one nice thing about photography,

it teaches you to look.

It teaches you to appreciate all kinds of things.

I can't even read it,

but there are a bunch of negatives here.

See what I mean?

How irresponsible I am.

I can't show you every one.

This is a young lady...

who was an editor...

at Harper's Bazaar.

This is a picture here...

that Steichen liked...

and I gave him a print which probably has disappeared.

How's that for an answer?

This is a picture I took of Soames.

I was going to make a painting of it.

I think I might have painted it.

I used the wide-angle, I should have used the telephoto.

This chair which I like...

was put into storage and it was never retrieved.

It's probably gone.

This is Soames.

I can't remember what she was doing...

and whether it makes much sense or not.

Unless it's an evil, degenerate picture that I'm unaware of.

Her left breast showing.

Looking a little bit Japanese-y maybe.

Oh, and this is my assistant...

whom I did some pictures of...

that are slightly--

they're slightly--

A long time ago.

It was all a long time ago...

and I was not cut out...

for all of the business that went on.

So that's the story...

of my secret life...

as a Creep.

I own this apartment and I own the other,

unfortunately due to the fact that Soames died which--

because this was her apartment that she left to me...

which I helped her buy when she bought it.

I've lived in the building since 1952.

And since I'm very lazy and tend not to move around like some people do,

who keep moving from place to place as they go up in the scale of things.

[ Man ] So you've been in the neighborhood since '52?

Fifty-two.

Forty-eight, 58...

almost 60 years.

And do you like the neighborhood?

Yes. I think it's rather nice.

It's changed over the years, it's gone from--

I've been told by people that it's now quite fashionable,

but I remember a long time ago that it was--

well, it was the Lower East Side which was at one point not considered...

the most desirable place to live.

But, uh,

I've, uh-- I think it's okay.

I can imagine living in other places.

I can imagine having a different kind of life.

Ican imagine living in the country, maybe, although I don't know.

I can imagine things being different.

I can imagine.

[ Chuckling ]

[ Children Chattering ]

Wait, you're blurred.

Wait.

Wait.

Wait!

Okay, done.

And then I'll take your picture and I will send 60 prints.

[ Shutter Clicks ] [ Chuckling ]

It's actually quite nice here today.

[ Man ] It's very pretty. There are people in the garden.

[ Chuckling ]

He's doing a document on me.

I thought that I'm not worthy of one.

I see no reason why anyone wants to do a document on me.

And he comes from Europe and tortures me.

And I was hoping to be forgotten.

I aspire to be unimportant and--

So what can you do?

[ Woman ] Nice to see you. Hi, Susan.

Tomas is doing a document on me.

He saw Margit this morning. [ Tomas ] I did.

And I have tried to persuade him-- To drop the whole thing?

To drop the whole thing. I know. He comes to see me at dinner and he goes,

"I don't understand why!"

[ Chuckling ] Wait a minute, stay there.

Now, don't move.

Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

Wait-- [ Chuckling ]

I can't stay here forever.

I'm sorry! Is she a dancer?

[ Giggling ] Nol

[ Margit ] Do you want coffee?

{ Voice On Recording, Indistinct ]

[ Beep ] [ Male Electronic Voice ] End of messages.

There's some good messages in there.

“Saul, you've just been acquired by the Philadelphia Museum of Art."

“Saul, you've just been--" [ Chuckling ]

That's nice. Yeah.

And I'll sit on this little stool. Mm-hmm.

- And where will I sit? - And maybe now that this table is beautifully cleared,

we can put the binder on the table.

Yes. Where, here? Yeah, you sit down there.

[ Saul ] It's sad when you get to be an older person,

and people treat you like an object.

And you no longer have very much to say about anything.

Oh, no. And you find people coming into your life...

and arranging things.

But you're having fun.

Fun? You call this fun?

Wait a minute. Let me get rid of that.

I think that one, maybe.

See, I'm not very good at editing things.

I like this top hat one. I do, too. I like the hat one.

Which one do you like best? I think this is okay.

[--

I'm not sure about-- These are nice.

T like this one here, which is rather odd. I like that one too.

It's kind of nice.

Look at these. These are great.

He's photographed the same neighborhood for 55 years,

and, uh, there's a certain charm of the ones from the '50s,

because you've got '50s cars and '50s people and '50s fashion.

But he's shooting it with the same Leiter style in 2011. It's amazing.

I think people are gonna be really surprised. You think?

But the question is what format to put these in.

Do we print them? Maybe they won't care.

Do we put them on aTV monitor? They're digital.

It's hard to know what--

See, I've never cared that much.

When I say I've cared, I've never--

When I worked for people I wanted them to like what I did...

‘cause I didn't want to have to take it over,

among other things.

I like having people like what I do.

[ Margit ] We'd better just see all of them.

Any more? There's a nice one.

Very static, controlled.

[ Tomas ] Would you like these to be published, Saul?

I enjoy seeing things that I like published.

I have not, uh--

I've had so much published...

in the fairly recent period,

that--

I've had a lot of things published.

When you have too much published,

you don't jump up and down...

the way you do if you have very little published.

Photographers can tell you that, maybe.

[ Chuckling ]

You know what I mean?

These are some-- I was walking over to the gallery...

and these were all people posing for their graduation pictures.

Saul stumbles into an NYU, um, graduation, like-- like, rally...

[ Chuckling ] with all these people wearing caps and gowns.

And he just blends right in and takes pictures.

And they're all hugging each other and smiling...

and Saul's like someone's anonymous grandfather.

Yes, I guess that's it.

This particular picture was taken...

at the corner of 11th Street and Third Avenue.

The man was painting a sign...

and one day I walked by.

I took a number of photographs--

and some of them have disappeared--

of this particular, uh--

But I didn't go out to take him.

I just had my camera with me.

I very often would carry my camera around.

But I don't recall sort of...

planning to photograph certain things.

I go out with my camera and I take pictures...

because I enjoy catching certain moments.

Of course I don't know that I'm going to get what I'm going to get.

It takes time.

If you have a camera, you take a picture,

you're not quite sure what you get,

even though some photographers have a tendency...

to like to know exactly what they're going to get.

Or some photographers like to set things up...

and control what they see...

and arrange things in a certain way.

‘Cause that's what they like to do.

Just like some people would never wear red socks.

Why? Because...

it's a statement they don't care to make.

[ Chuckling ]

[ Laughing ]

When I think to myself,

I very often think of colors.

I think of painting,

even when I'm not painting or when I am painting.

When it comes to photography, it's a different thing.

I tend to react to what I find.

[ Tomas ] Could you describe, ‘cause I've never really done any printing--

Ah, don't ask me to describe what makes a good print.

No, I was gonna say-- I wasn't!

You come through with these idiotic questions and I have to be nice and answer,

I wasn't! "Why do you do this, and why--"

You Know one thing that drives me absolutely crazy?

Why, why, why, why, why.

The nice thing about not attracting attention and being ignored...

is no one asks you, "Why do you do this? Why do you do that?

Why do you do that? Why did you put-- Why?

Who influenced you? Did you-- Bah, bah, bah, bah!"

I wasn't going to ask that question.

What were you gonna ask? I was gonna Say, how do you work with him?

Do you send a negative and he does his--

‘Cause I know your eye for color is really good.

We were looking at the prints here, the other day,

and you said that in the bottom corner there could be a little bit more red.

And that's quite a very subtle approach to color.

It's not very subtle at all.

It's just simply a bad print was used in the book-- Right.

and they should have had one where you saw the red.

He has lots of nice stuff here.

It's fun to come in because you're always seeing different things.

[ Tomas ] Yeah.

That's the original done on shiny paper.

[ Woman ] Yeah, so Philippe was saying...

that you wanted to paint on top of the print? Yeah. Sometimes I do that.

In other words, after I have a blowup,

if I have one or two I'll paint each one a little differently.

Okay, so the print is the final piece? Yeah.

You don't plan to scan it and then do yet another print? No.

Okay. Unless maybe--

[ All Laughing ]

After-After I paint it then we make another print. Great.

Ideally it would be fun to keep--

You know, it would be fun, but we're not gonna do that.

Generally it's a little more successful to paint on the matte paper--

I think so. ‘cause it's kind of porous.

And I just don't know how the paint--

how long it would last on the luster surface.

[ Indistinct ]

I made two. I can make more like that.

I can give you one for now and then let's find one or wait to sign them.

Then I'm gonna take one. Oh, maybe I'll wait.

[ Indistinct ] Yeah.

Uh, this particular-- [ Indistinct ]

When I die, the-- if I have an obituary,

which I may be lucky enough not to have--

[ All Laughing ]

they'll reproduce this print.

This will be-- He did "Through Boards."

And "Lanesville." "Lanesville."

He did "Through Boards." Yeah.

If I had only known...

which ones would be very good and liked,

I wouldn't have had to do all the thousands of others.

[ Chuckling ]

I could have--

I could have stuck to a small number of what they--

They're referred to in acertain circle as winners.

Well...

just think what would have happened if Picasso had done that.

Well, Picasso, I think, did too much.

That's nice. Isn't that nice?

Yes, it's beautiful. It has a wonderful kind of--

[ Tomas ] Yeah, it's very nice, isn't it? It's very different.

[ Saul ] I always tell people...

that the moment you walk into Philippe's place and start ordering prints...

you become a better photographer immediately.

I'm going to have to tell your studio--

Yes? One of 20.

One of 20.

And then here.

Have you made a package for Saul?

With the-- Just the small ones, right? Yeah.

[ Philippe ] So.

[ Saul ] So. I have to--

These are digital fiber black-and-white prints.

[ Fades Out, Indistinct ]

[ No Audible Dialogue ]

[ Saul ] I've said some things that should not have been said.

[ Tomas Laughs ] That I should have avoided-- [ Laughing ]

That I should have avoided commenting on.

But that's how it is.

Let's get some lunch. There are the things that are out in the open,

and then there are the things that are hidden.

And life has more to do--

The real world has more to do with what is hidden, maybe.

You think? Yeah, that could be true.

You think it's true? It could be.

It could be very true.

Though we like to pretend that what is public or what is--

is what the real world is all about.

That's pretty good, isn't it? [ Tomas ] That is great, yeah.

Did they know they're providing an older person...

with outrageous behavior?

And these are my back of the--

I thought of doing a little collection of people from behind.

[ Bells Tolling ]

[ Indistinct ]

[ Tomas ] With the fashion photography,

how did it happen that you started doing it--

Because Henry-- I went to see Henry Wolf,

and I showed him some of my color--

I-I suppose you could call them experiments.

And they were very nice pictures and he liked them.

And he said, "When I go to Harper's Bazaar, which I'm going to do,

I am going to use you in the magazine."

So that's how I began to do work for Harper's Bazaar.

So then people who weren't interested in me,

whom I'd tried to see...

or tried to talk to about representing me,

turned up suddenly ‘cause I was in the magazine.

[ Tomas ] Did you separate the work you did for yourself and the work that you did--

No, I didn't separate anything.

I tried to do nice things...

and sometimes they overlapped.

Sometimes one encouraged--

My photographs in fashion were probably, uh, related...

in some way to personal things.

So that, uh--

I mean, Robert Frank did fashion.

Uh, who else? A number of very--

Lou Faurer. He was ashamed, he said, of his fashion.

He wished he hadn't done it. He used to complain about it.

Different people had different attitudes.

I didn't consider it a bad thing to earna living.

I thought that that was permissible.

[ Chuckling ]

I didn't pay any attention to anyone who criticized me.

I'm sure there were people who didn't take me seriously...

because I was doing fashion.

There is a tendency, a kind of snobbishness, that--

I don't know if it's still true.

‘Cause now you can do anything.

I did things ‘cause I enjoyed doing them.

I enjoyed doing fashion at certain points.

At other points, I worked with people who were not particularly, uh--

[ Clicks Tongue ] imaginative...

and wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do.

But the way I put it at some point was...

that if I were allowed by the people I worked for...

to do something good, I would do it.

And if they didn't allow me to do something good,

I could do something bad.

[ Chuckles ]

You must know that, from working with people. [ Laughs ] I do.

[ Tomas ] So what are in all these boxes, Saul?

Well, they're negatives.

I have to go through them.

If I didn't meet up with people like you--

I need a year of being left alone.

I'm allowed to see Margit.

See, here, negatives.

In fact, this is, uh--

These are some negatives that were exposed...

and I think they were damaged.

Things have a way, you see--

Things have a way of getting mixed up with me.

As opposed to certain people like Margit.

If I only had had a Margit in my life...

when I was younger,

who had helped me keep order,

I would know where everything is.

All my negatives would be marked.

People would say, "Do you have a picture of so-and-so?"

And I'd say, "Oh, yes," and I'd take it out, have a print made.

It would be very easy.

But disorder, there's a certain kind of charm...

and comfort in disorder...

[ Chuckling ] that not everyone appreciates.

[ Chuckling ]

To know everything is not good.

To be in a state of pleasant confusion,

sometimes can be very satisfying.

Especially if you're slightly crazy. [ Chuckling ]

But I must not let on that I know this.

[ No Audible Dialogue ]

[ Laughing ]

[ Tomas ] Oh, wow, look at him.

That's-- This particular scene is pretty hard to beat.

[ Digital Shutter Clicks ] Yeah, he's a good boy.

[ Tomas Laughing ]

When we came up here the other day-- Yeah?

you described this room as a bit like a cemetery?

Or how did you describe it?

I thought, you know, when you live in a place,

and then you abandoned it and it gets run-down,

and it gets to be sad,

and it gets to be whatever it gets to be,

it makes you sad...

because this room was once empty.

The ceilings and the walls were plastered.

And they were not-- They were rough, but it wasn't--

And...

I lived here and there was this table.

That was over there...

and that was over there.

No, that wasn't even there. That was up in the studio maybe.

And this wasn't-- None of this was here.

It was empty.

There was a skylight, there was a--

You Know, it was a different thing.

And the floors tended to be, at that time,

tended to be...

waxed.

And so it's like looking at an abandoned--

You look at something, and--

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.

Maybe I do more than I think I do.

Maybe I do everything more than I think I do.

Maybe.

This is a picture taken in...

Venice, maybe.

These are all mixed up.

My idea was to try to file them away in some kind of order,

but what I do is I start something and then I run away from it...

because it strikes me as being somewhat--

It demands a certain energy,

which maybe I do not have.

I worry about what will happen to some of these,

but I don't worry too much.

It may turn out to be a job...

for Margit to attend to...

whom I happen to love and adore.

Although it's a great secret. No one would know this.

This is one you thought could grade...

‘cause you don't know anything about anything,

but I have to pretend you do.

I have to treat you with respect,

even though you don't know lots of things.

I do like photographs where sometimes everything's lost...

and in some corner, something's going on...

and you're not quite sure what it--

Although I've done a lot of pictures of other things in other ways.

When Margit sometimes says to me, "That's not really you,"

I sometimes wonder what is really me.

This is another one of those street things.

And this is a picture of a young woman.

A nude.

It's kind of nice when you see a print of it,

because you're not aware immediately what it is.

[ Tomas ] Mmm.

My photographs are meant...

to tickle your left ear.

[ Chuckling ]

Very lightly. [ Chuckling ]

My photographs are meant to-- Creep up behind you and tickle your left ear?

Yes.

Let's go downstairs. I'm tired.

Am I allowed to be tired, Tomas? You are.

[ Saul ] This is very funny. I have to clean it up.

It says-- [ Chuckles ]

“To dearest Soames, my only friend.

The others are scoundrels and louts.

[ Chuckles ]

Love, Bonnard."

[ Muttering ]

What is that?

Oh. Look at that.

That was lying--

Does it fill the whole frame?

[ Tomas ] Almost.

Almost?

[ Muttering ]

Couldn't I die first?

No, I can't.

What a pity.

[ Saul ] And here is a Lyonel Feininger.

And here is a de Stael. There's that.

Now my friend Soames,

who I would not have expected to like this kind of painting...

on the basis of what she liked,

was very fond of de Stael.

In fact, when we were going through the books,

I uncovered a little book...

that I had bought for her before she died.

[ Tomas ] Did you talk about art with Soames a lot?

Yes, we did. We used to have--

We used to sit and talk about painting.

That was one thing we did,

that we shared a love of art and painting and books...

and prints and all kinds of things,

and we very often--

She would sit and listen to music,

and I would sit in this room and look over and see her.

I liked looking over...

and seeing Soames rocking away and listening to music.

And--

And then she...

kicked the bucket.

You know what kick the bucket means? Mmm.

It was very unkind of her.

She-- She may have gotten tired or disappointed in me.

I sometimes wonder whether she wouldn't have been better off...

marrying a nice, very rich man...

who could have given her a lot of things that she needed,

like a nice studio,

and a collection of prints,

and an occasional Bonnard painting.

That would've-- She loved Bonnard and she loved New York.

[ Tomas ] Do you think Soames would have liked the film?

Yes, I think she would have liked--

You would have liked her.

She would be very good. She'd like being in it.

She'd wanna talk to me.

Soames believed in my work...

at a time when people were not terribly interested in it,

or a lot of people were not interested in it.

And she was always devoted in that sense.

She thought I was a very fine photographer...

with an unusual sense of color.

And she would have liked the whole thing.

She would have had fun and enjoyed it.

But she's not here.

It's all my fault. Her death is my fault.

I killed her.

How did I do it? I don't know.

But it's my fault.

From time to time, I have to face the fact that almost everything is my fault.

[ Chuckling ]

Yes. Everything is my fault.

I haven't really looked through.

She died in 2002 and I-- The room is there.

I didn't go into it.

Maybe I couldn't bring myself to alone.

Maybe at times it seemed to me impossible to deal with.

You put things off sometimes, which is not a good thing.

The best thing is to dig in and to get it over with.

There's too much here, everywhere.

[ Saul ] Okay.

What is this?

Oh, these are pieces...

that she saved of packages that I--

Are you getting it? Mmm.

Very interesting. Here's another package to Soames.

Look at it.

It's kind of nice.

I would never know I did that.

[ Tomas ] Are these packages you gave her?

Yes, that I gave her, that she saved.

She thinks these are prints. How wrong, how wrong.

These are not prints, they are--

There's another package.

Actually they're quite nice. I have to dust them off.

Oh!

Kind of tears your heart out, if you know what I mean, if you have a heart.

If you don't have a heart, you're very lucky.

Now--

You Know, there was a time in Soames's life...

when this particular room...

was not like it is now.

Obviously.

Does my life consist of constant apologies?

Must I always explain to people...

that life was not always like this?

What can I do with all of this?

[ Tomas ] What are they?

It's a diary that Soames kept...

in which she writes about her cat.

I think she had a period where she was-- in the '80s--

where she was much more interested in her cat than she was in me.

Well, that's the way it was. What can I do about that?

This needs a whole--

What is in here?

[ Tomas ] Who's that?

[ Laughs ]

It was probably my--

Soames would occasionally see something that she thought--

“Puppets with a tale."

I don't know how this works.

Margit will probably throw it out,

even though I would think it's rather--

[ Tomas ] That's rather nice.

It's Soames as a little girl.

She was, I suspect, a beautiful little girl.

But the important thing in life is not what you get,

but what you throw out.

I've enjoyed having books.

I've enjoyed looking at paintings.

I've enjoyed having someone in my life...

that I care about who cares about me.

I attached more importance to that...

than I did to the idea of success.

If I had to choose between being successful...

and not having someone or having someone,

I'd prefer to have someone that I cared about...

who cared about me.

I'm a person who likes to postpone things.

I see no reason for being in a rush.

When you consider many of the things that people treat very seriously,

and you realize that they don't deserve to be treated that seriously,

and when you consider that many of the things that people think are important...

are not really terribly important.

And many of the things that people worry about...

are not really worth worrying about.

[ Tomas ] Do you think thinking about things like that...

delayed you doing your work?

Delayed me? Yeah.

I wasn't delayed.

What was I supposed to do?

If I didn't do anything more than my little book,

wouldn't that have been enough?

How much do you have to do...

to satisfy people who don't care anyway?

[ Tomas ] So who should we get to play you in the story of your life, then?

[ Saul ] I don't know. Someone decrepit...

and sort of disreputable-looking.

[ Tomas ] Is that how you would describe yourself now, is it?

Yes, I'm decrepit,

and I am disorderly-looking,

and I lack the proper grace and charm needed...

for a story...

ona lost, confused--

[ Chuckling ]

lost, confused... person...

who sometimes used a camera...

with a touch of intelligence, but not too much.

[ Chuckling ]

I believe-- if I may be old-fashioned--

I believe there's such a thing as a search for beauty,

a delight in the nice things in the world.

And I don't think one should have to apologize for it.

And I know that there are people, for instance,

who don't like Renoir because everything's too sugary and sweet.

But I have nothing against...

a view of life that considers it worthwhile...

to pursue certain notions of beauty.

I see nothing wrong with that.

I see no reason to apologize.

Some people, I think, are very attracted...

to what is not very attractive,

what is miserable, what is wretched,

what is--

I can't remember.

I recently heard someone talk about the idea...

that happiness is an absurd ideal.

My brother once told me--

He said, "You know, you're crazy, Saul.

You think being happy is an important thing to pursue."

I'm not sure what his words were.

He said, "Life isn't about being happy.

It's about all kinds of other things."

[ Saul On Video ] You have to get a good editor...

because you will go to jail--

[ Chuckling ]

f Saul On Video, Indistinct ]

I think it's gonna be good. [ Tomas ] Yeah?

If it were edited properly-- [ Chuckling ]

by avoiding too much that is serious.