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1
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>> they called.
>> me.
2
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>> me.
>> the lebanese texan. I spoke.
3
00:00:29,096 --> 00:00:32,431
>> the lebanese texan. I spoke.
>> arabic. First.
4
00:00:32,433 --> 00:00:35,501
>> arabic. First.
>> they're
5
00:00:35,668 --> 00:00:36,568
He realities
of the intelligence business,
6
00:00:38,738 --> 00:00:41,239
Back in 1980,
7
00:00:41,241 --> 00:00:43,342
When I came on board
with the cia.
8
00:00:44,878 --> 00:00:47,479
I was blind. I didn't really
know what reality was.
9
00:00:48,582 --> 00:00:50,516
I knew it wasn't hollywood.
10
00:00:55,055 --> 00:00:56,921
If you're trying to
protect your country,
11
00:00:57,057 --> 00:00:59,925
You have to play by the
rules of the neighborhood.
12
00:01:00,995 --> 00:01:02,461
And those are dirty.
13
00:01:05,666 --> 00:01:08,933
What I know now,
if I knew it then,
14
00:01:09,069 --> 00:01:13,138
I would never have joined
the intelligence business.
15
00:01:16,343 --> 00:01:17,676
Reporter: Pan am flight 103
crashed
16
00:01:17,777 --> 00:01:19,744
Into the scottish village
of lockerbie.
17
00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,747
Two hundred and seventy people,
most of them americans, dead.
18
00:01:22,883 --> 00:01:25,550
It was the worst terrorist
attack on an airline ever.
19
00:01:25,653 --> 00:01:28,553
Reagan: We have no knowledge
of how this happened.
20
00:01:29,089 --> 00:01:30,823
We're trying to find out.
21
00:01:31,225 --> 00:01:32,757
Man 1: It was an attack
on america.
22
00:01:32,759 --> 00:01:34,158
Man 2: The largest crime scene
in history.
23
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,028
Man 3: Two-hundred-thousand
pieces of evidence.
24
00:01:36,030 --> 00:01:37,429
Man 4: My daughter hadn't just
died in an accident,
25
00:01:37,531 --> 00:01:38,963
But had been brutally murdered.
26
00:01:39,099 --> 00:01:40,298
Man 5: They killed our children.
27
00:01:40,433 --> 00:01:42,701
Man 6: To be lied to
for 30 years.
28
00:01:42,836 --> 00:01:44,502
Man 7: I think the us government
had an agenda.
29
00:01:44,504 --> 00:01:47,572
Reagan is the biggest terrorist
in the world.
30
00:01:47,675 --> 00:01:49,374
Woman 1: If it's up to
our government,
31
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We might not ever know
the truth.
32
00:01:55,182 --> 00:01:57,983
Man 8: Nothing is what it seems
in the lockerbie story.
33
00:02:06,793 --> 00:02:08,793
Woman 2: December 21st, 1988.
34
00:02:09,263 --> 00:02:12,865
So I was, uh, 17 years old,
35
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,268
And my father was coming home
from a business trip in london
36
00:02:16,270 --> 00:02:19,337
When his plane, pan am 103,
37
00:02:19,339 --> 00:02:22,140
Exploded over lockerbie,
scotland,
38
00:02:22,275 --> 00:02:25,877
Due to a bomb that had been
placed on board by terrorists.
39
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,148
This was a terrible tragedy
for my family to endure.
40
00:02:30,150 --> 00:02:32,751
It was a life-defining moment,
41
00:02:32,753 --> 00:02:37,289
That would absolutely forever
change the person I was.
42
00:02:37,291 --> 00:02:40,425
It really changed the way I saw
the world, the way I saw myself.
43
00:02:40,427 --> 00:02:43,428
We found out about
the plane crash
44
00:02:43,430 --> 00:02:44,897
Through a breaking
news story.
45
00:02:45,032 --> 00:02:48,767
I'm talking, like, tv on
in the kitchen, soap opera on,
46
00:02:48,769 --> 00:02:52,771
Newscaster comes on, and my
mother hears the news, right?
47
00:02:52,872 --> 00:02:55,107
Reporter 1: 747 down from london
to new york.
48
00:02:55,242 --> 00:02:57,442
Reporter 2: There was some type
of explosion in midair
49
00:02:57,578 --> 00:02:58,843
And the plane broke
into several parts.
50
00:02:58,979 --> 00:03:00,746
Reporter 3:..Lockerbie,
scotland.
51
00:03:03,183 --> 00:03:05,784
-There we go. There's...
-Oh, my.
52
00:03:05,885 --> 00:03:08,052
I didn't even see these yet.
53
00:03:08,054 --> 00:03:11,657
This is... Frank. Yes.
54
00:03:13,260 --> 00:03:14,927
And, oh, these are old pictures
55
00:03:15,028 --> 00:03:17,996
Of how young we were
at one time.
56
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,533
We met at a church dance,
57
00:03:21,668 --> 00:03:24,336
And we ended up being
dance partners.
58
00:03:24,471 --> 00:03:28,440
And we dated for almost seven
years, and then we were married.
59
00:03:31,011 --> 00:03:34,212
He worked at
chase manhattan bank,
60
00:03:34,214 --> 00:03:37,349
And he was serving in london.
61
00:03:37,351 --> 00:03:39,084
He was coming home
for christmas.
62
00:03:40,554 --> 00:03:43,621
And he was supposed to come
home Wednesday morning,
63
00:03:43,623 --> 00:03:46,558
And they asked him to stay.
64
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,093
And he actually called me.
65
00:03:49,095 --> 00:03:51,630
He said, "would you mind
if I came home that night?"
66
00:03:51,765 --> 00:03:54,899
And... I never told him
67
00:03:54,901 --> 00:03:56,901
When he could fly
and when he couldn't fly.
68
00:03:56,903 --> 00:03:58,971
I said, "of course, as long as
you're coming home."
69
00:03:59,106 --> 00:04:01,306
But he wasn't supposed to be
on that plane at the beginning.
70
00:04:07,313 --> 00:04:10,248
We didn't know anything for
months and months, you know.
71
00:04:10,250 --> 00:04:13,317
We knew someone put
something on the plane,
72
00:04:13,319 --> 00:04:16,989
But we didn't know who, where
they came from, why they did it.
73
00:04:17,090 --> 00:04:18,590
When something like this
happens,
74
00:04:18,725 --> 00:04:21,526
You want to know the truth.
75
00:04:21,528 --> 00:04:23,395
You want to know what happens.
76
00:04:23,397 --> 00:04:25,063
You want to know who's
at fault,
77
00:04:25,065 --> 00:04:27,131
-Who's to blame, all of that.
-And why.
78
00:04:27,267 --> 00:04:30,335
Somebody, literally, did this
purposely to these people.
79
00:04:39,613 --> 00:04:42,013
Man 9: Based on baggage records,
80
00:04:42,016 --> 00:04:46,218
We determined that
it was here in malta
81
00:04:46,220 --> 00:04:48,053
That the suitcase containing
the bomb was first planted.
82
00:04:51,691 --> 00:04:53,758
I was with the case
for three years,
83
00:04:53,861 --> 00:04:56,695
But assigned to malta
for almost two years.
84
00:04:56,830 --> 00:04:58,096
Interviewer: That's a big
commitment.
85
00:04:58,098 --> 00:05:00,632
It is a big commitment,
86
00:05:00,767 --> 00:05:03,435
But it's not solved in an hour,
with commercial breaks
87
00:05:03,437 --> 00:05:04,936
And things like that.
88
00:05:11,712 --> 00:05:14,913
By 1990, we were all
pretty convinced
89
00:05:14,915 --> 00:05:17,783
That libya was behind
the pan am 103 bombing.
90
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,355
We had two,
main potential suspects.
91
00:05:25,592 --> 00:05:31,129
Lamin fhimah was the libyan arab
airlines manager here on malta,
92
00:05:31,264 --> 00:05:36,334
And he owned a travel agency
called med tours
93
00:05:36,336 --> 00:05:38,136
Here on the island.
94
00:05:38,271 --> 00:05:41,940
His friend was
abdelbaset al-megrahi
95
00:05:42,041 --> 00:05:46,111
Who apparently was an
intelligence officer.
96
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,481
Based on the artists' rendition,
97
00:05:49,616 --> 00:05:53,285
Megrahi looked like the person
who had bought the clothing
98
00:05:53,287 --> 00:05:56,822
Found in and around the
suitcase containing the bomb.
99
00:05:58,625 --> 00:06:02,093
But we needed more
evidence, you know.
100
00:06:02,096 --> 00:06:03,795
There's still more
work to be done.
101
00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:12,971
Everybody in our government
wanted to find out who did this,
102
00:06:12,973 --> 00:06:16,440
And as a result of that,
the cia did something,
103
00:06:16,442 --> 00:06:18,176
And I won't say
it's never happened,
104
00:06:18,311 --> 00:06:21,379
But I will say it's a rarity.
105
00:06:21,514 --> 00:06:24,816
They offered up one of
their sources to the fbi.
106
00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,157
They had a source in malta -
majid giaka.
107
00:06:35,128 --> 00:06:37,795
They said that he was
a double agent,
108
00:06:37,797 --> 00:06:39,798
He had worked at the airport,
109
00:06:39,933 --> 00:06:42,134
But he had left
and gone back to libya,
110
00:06:42,269 --> 00:06:45,036
And they were
trying to find him.
111
00:06:46,940 --> 00:06:49,007
The fbi codename for him was
puzzle piece,
112
00:06:49,009 --> 00:06:51,943
Because he became so critical,
113
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He was a piece of the puzzle.
114
00:07:01,287 --> 00:07:02,887
So, he volunteered himself.
115
00:07:02,990 --> 00:07:04,689
We call them "walk-ins".
116
00:07:04,691 --> 00:07:07,025
He walked into the embassy
in malta,
117
00:07:07,027 --> 00:07:09,628
Claimed he was affiliated
with the libyan intelligence.
118
00:07:12,566 --> 00:07:15,033
He worked for
libyan arab airlines.
119
00:07:15,134 --> 00:07:16,434
We knew it was common practice
120
00:07:16,436 --> 00:07:17,569
For the libyan
intelligence service
121
00:07:17,704 --> 00:07:19,704
To use libyan arab airlines
122
00:07:19,706 --> 00:07:22,307
As a cover office
for their operations.
123
00:07:28,514 --> 00:07:31,583
Phil: This is the old
luqa airport.
124
00:07:33,786 --> 00:07:36,521
Investigation determined
that it was here
125
00:07:36,657 --> 00:07:39,991
That the bomb bag...
126
00:07:39,993 --> 00:07:44,496
Was actually put on the air
malta flight to frankfurt...
127
00:07:46,165 --> 00:07:49,467
..And then was transferred to
the pan am 103 flight
128
00:07:49,469 --> 00:07:52,237
Out of heathrow
that blew up over lockerbie.
129
00:07:54,875 --> 00:07:58,810
Puzzle piece was working here
at luqa airport
130
00:07:58,945 --> 00:08:00,779
In the luggage area.
131
00:08:03,350 --> 00:08:06,550
The cia started looking
at his reporting.
132
00:08:06,552 --> 00:08:10,288
Which was saying that,
around December of 1988,
133
00:08:10,423 --> 00:08:12,624
He actually saw
134
00:08:12,626 --> 00:08:18,496
Both fhimah and megrahi
coming into this airport here...
135
00:08:18,631 --> 00:08:22,033
..With a suitcase.
136
00:08:22,035 --> 00:08:26,104
And that double agent became
very, very important to us
137
00:08:26,106 --> 00:08:27,205
In the case.
138
00:08:39,419 --> 00:08:42,653
I get a phone call telling me
139
00:08:42,655 --> 00:08:45,189
That cia the found the double
agent, majid giaka,
140
00:08:45,191 --> 00:08:47,258
He's on a boat,
141
00:08:47,260 --> 00:08:50,395
And they're bringing him to a
us ship of some kind
142
00:08:50,530 --> 00:08:52,230
To be interviewed.
143
00:08:55,835 --> 00:08:59,069
Got on a helicopter,
we were flown out
144
00:08:59,071 --> 00:09:04,275
To a ship in the mediterranean,
international waters.
145
00:09:05,946 --> 00:09:09,814
And I'm anticipating a
very aggressive interview.
146
00:09:11,818 --> 00:09:17,355
But I found him credible,
uh, almost to a fault.
147
00:09:17,357 --> 00:09:19,190
He was so honest.
148
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,094
Dick: He tells us
he knows megrahi.
149
00:09:24,096 --> 00:09:27,165
Megrahi was in the libyan
intelligence service.
150
00:09:28,835 --> 00:09:32,303
He tells us,
"I saw fhimah and megrahi
151
00:09:32,305 --> 00:09:36,174
Come to the airport
with a suitcase."
152
00:09:36,176 --> 00:09:39,577
Exactly the same as the one
that carried the bomb.
153
00:09:40,913 --> 00:09:44,915
He said fhimah,
because of his job
154
00:09:45,051 --> 00:09:50,321
Here as the libyan
arab airlines manager,
155
00:09:50,323 --> 00:09:54,592
He was able to circumvent
customs with that suitcase.
156
00:09:57,597 --> 00:10:03,067
And then he tells us that fhimah
kept explosives in his desk.
157
00:10:03,202 --> 00:10:07,138
And, you know, why would
an airport security manager
158
00:10:07,274 --> 00:10:09,007
Keep explosives in his desk?
159
00:10:09,009 --> 00:10:12,210
You scratch your head.
But he looks at photo spreads
160
00:10:12,212 --> 00:10:16,547
Of various types of explosives
and he picks out semtex...
161
00:10:16,683 --> 00:10:18,850
..The explosive that was used
to make the bomb.
162
00:10:21,488 --> 00:10:23,487
That was critical for us.
163
00:10:23,489 --> 00:10:30,428
We had the people who actually
personally facilitated
164
00:10:30,563 --> 00:10:31,696
That bomb
into the airline system
165
00:10:32,164 --> 00:10:39,671
The people who actually,
personally facilitated that bomb
166
00:10:39,673 --> 00:10:41,038
Personally facilitated that bomb
into the airline system that
167
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,642
Into the airline system that
eventually blew up pan am flight
168
00:10:44,644 --> 00:10:47,945
Eventually blew up pan am flight
103, killing 270 people. We got
169
00:10:47,947 --> 00:10:50,682
103, killing 270 people. We got
the criminal indictments against
170
00:10:50,684 --> 00:10:53,417
The criminal indictments against
two libyan intelligence agents
171
00:10:53,419 --> 00:10:55,786
Two libyan intelligence agents
announced today in washington
172
00:10:55,788 --> 00:10:56,854
Announced today in washington
and scotland.
173
00:10:56,856 --> 00:10:58,556
And scotland.
>> we charged.
174
00:10:58,558 --> 00:11:00,057
>> we charged.
>> two libyan officials acting
175
00:11:00,059 --> 00:11:02,793
>> two libyan officials acting
as operatives of the libyan
176
00:11:02,795 --> 00:11:03,861
As operatives of the libyan
intelligence service.
177
00:11:03,863 --> 00:11:04,896
Intelligence service.
>> megrahi, a.
178
00:11:04,898 --> 00:11:05,997
>> megrahi, a.
>> senior officer with libyan
179
00:11:05,999 --> 00:11:07,431
>> senior officer with libyan
intelligence, fema, a libyan
180
00:11:07,433 --> 00:11:09,067
Intelligence, fema, a libyan
agent and station manager of
181
00:11:09,069 --> 00:11:11,669
Agent and station manager of
libyan arab airlines in malta.
182
00:11:11,671 --> 00:11:13,471
Libyan arab airlines in malta.
>> finally, something was
183
00:11:13,473 --> 00:11:15,406
>> finally, something was
happening because it was very
184
00:11:15,408 --> 00:11:16,908
Happening because it was very
difficult to to wait and see and
185
00:11:16,910 --> 00:11:18,676
Difficult to to wait and see and
have had everything that
186
00:11:18,678 --> 00:11:21,078
Have had everything that
happened without an answer. We
187
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,113
Happened without an answer. We
were looking for answers.
188
00:11:22,115 --> 00:11:23,481
Were looking for answers.
>> okay, there were people that
189
00:11:23,483 --> 00:11:26,484
>> okay, there were people that
we can look at and and kind of
190
00:11:26,486 --> 00:11:27,919
We can look at and and kind of
say like, why did you do this?
191
00:11:27,921 --> 00:11:29,820
Say like, why did you do this?
There's a relief in that
192
00:11:29,822 --> 00:11:31,289
There's a relief in that
because you're trying so badly
193
00:11:31,291 --> 00:11:33,124
Because you're trying so badly
to put the pieces together.
194
00:11:33,126 --> 00:11:34,992
To put the pieces together.
>> that was one of the
195
00:11:34,994 --> 00:11:38,629
>> that was one of the
questions, though. Why did you
196
00:11:38,631 --> 00:11:39,664
Questions, though. Why did you
do it?
197
00:11:39,666 --> 00:11:40,732
Do it?
>> you know.
198
00:11:40,734 --> 00:11:41,832
>> you know.
>> you want to know who, what,
199
00:11:41,834 --> 00:11:43,735
>> you want to know who, what,
where, when and why of the
200
00:11:43,737 --> 00:11:44,835
Where, when and why of the
situation. You know, and keeping
201
00:11:44,837 --> 00:11:48,005
Situation. You know, and keeping
in mind that my brother was such
202
00:11:48,007 --> 00:11:58,816
In mind that my brother was such
a nonviolent guy. This is a some
203
00:11:58,818 --> 00:12:01,753
A nonviolent guy. This is a some
break dancing. That's my brother
204
00:12:01,755 --> 00:12:05,957
Break dancing. That's my brother
in the red. And he was. 19 ish.
205
00:12:05,959 --> 00:12:09,761
In the red. And he was. 19 ish.
That was only a couple of years
206
00:12:09,763 --> 00:12:12,330
That was only a couple of years
before he died. I recall being
207
00:12:12,332 --> 00:12:15,166
Before he died. I recall being
afraid that I would forget his
208
00:12:15,168 --> 00:12:18,269
Afraid that I would forget his
voice. And, you know, his
209
00:12:18,271 --> 00:12:19,337
Voice. And, you know, his
mannerisms and, you know, to a
210
00:12:19,339 --> 00:12:24,175
Mannerisms and, you know, to a
certain degree, I have, you
211
00:12:24,177 --> 00:12:27,511
Certain degree, I have, you
know, which is really sad. We
212
00:12:27,513 --> 00:12:28,946
Know, which is really sad. We
didn't always get along so
213
00:12:28,948 --> 00:12:30,281
Didn't always get along so
well. You know, there was an
214
00:12:30,283 --> 00:12:32,617
Well. You know, there was an
awful lot of sibling rivalry
215
00:12:32,619 --> 00:12:34,352
Awful lot of sibling rivalry
going on. And, and again, being
216
00:12:34,354 --> 00:12:37,054
Going on. And, and again, being
that we were so close in age and
217
00:12:37,056 --> 00:12:39,957
That we were so close in age and
then we both went to syracuse
218
00:12:39,959 --> 00:12:41,759
Then we both went to syracuse
and uh, he was, uh, he was not
219
00:12:41,761 --> 00:12:45,162
And uh, he was, uh, he was not
happy that I was going to
220
00:12:45,164 --> 00:12:46,731
Happy that I was going to
syracuse. He, he and I had a
221
00:12:46,733 --> 00:12:47,865
Syracuse. He, he and I had a
little discussion about it. And,
222
00:12:47,867 --> 00:12:49,066
Little discussion about it. And,
uh, you know, I think he said
223
00:12:49,068 --> 00:12:51,502
Uh, you know, I think he said
something along the lines of,
224
00:12:51,504 --> 00:12:53,504
Something along the lines of,
you know, couldn't you just go
225
00:12:53,506 --> 00:12:57,174
You know, couldn't you just go
anywhere else? Anywhere else?
226
00:12:57,176 --> 00:12:59,210
Anywhere else? Anywhere else?
You know, the last discussion he
227
00:12:59,212 --> 00:13:02,980
You know, the last discussion he
and I had, I was driving him
228
00:13:02,982 --> 00:13:04,915
And I had, I was driving him
somewhere for him to catch his
229
00:13:04,917 --> 00:13:08,786
Somewhere for him to catch his
flight to the uk. Um, the last
230
00:13:08,788 --> 00:13:09,987
Flight to the uk. Um, the last
words we said to each other was
231
00:13:09,989 --> 00:13:11,022
Words we said to each other was
something along the lines of,
232
00:13:11,024 --> 00:13:12,923
Something along the lines of,
you know, I really hate you, and
233
00:13:12,925 --> 00:13:17,595
You know, I really hate you, and
I really hate you too. And, uh,
234
00:13:17,597 --> 00:13:19,363
I really hate you too. And, uh,
those were literally the last
235
00:13:19,365 --> 00:13:21,399
Those were literally the last
words that we said to one
236
00:13:21,401 --> 00:13:29,407
Words that we said to one
another.
237
00:13:29,409 --> 00:13:30,008
Another.
>> the relatives of americans
238
00:13:30,209 --> 00:13:35,179
Who died on flight 103 expect
their government to take
239
00:13:35,181 --> 00:13:36,214
Their government to take
decisive action.
240
00:13:36,216 --> 00:13:37,615
Decisive action.
>> it was a military strike
241
00:13:37,617 --> 00:13:39,016
>> it was a military strike
against the american flag on pan
242
00:13:39,018 --> 00:13:41,285
Against the american flag on pan
am flight 103. And these libyan
243
00:13:41,287 --> 00:13:43,421
Am flight 103. And these libyan
intelligence officers were used
244
00:13:43,423 --> 00:13:45,556
Intelligence officers were used
as soldiers.
245
00:13:45,558 --> 00:13:46,624
As soldiers.
>> abdelbaset al-megrahi is
246
00:13:46,626 --> 00:13:47,659
>> abdelbaset al-megrahi is
accused of being the mastermind
247
00:13:47,661 --> 00:13:48,926
Accused of being the mastermind
of the pan am 103 bombing, but
248
00:13:48,928 --> 00:13:51,595
Of the pan am 103 bombing, but
he vigorously denies it.
249
00:13:51,597 --> 00:13:54,598
He vigorously denies it.
>> and 20 of December or 21 or
250
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,133
>> and 20 of December or 21 or
at that time, I wasn't there.
251
00:13:56,135 --> 00:13:57,368
At that time, I wasn't there.
Believe me, I was here in
252
00:13:57,370 --> 00:13:59,203
Believe me, I was here in
tripoli with my family.
253
00:13:59,205 --> 00:14:01,639
Tripoli with my family.
>> fema, who also worked for the
254
00:14:01,641 --> 00:14:03,174
>> fema, who also worked for the
libyan airline, also denies any
255
00:14:03,176 --> 00:14:04,775
Libyan airline, also denies any
role in the bombing.
256
00:14:04,777 --> 00:14:06,444
Role in the bombing.
>> we knew it was a waiting
257
00:14:06,446 --> 00:14:08,379
>> we knew it was a waiting
game. It was going to be up to
258
00:14:08,381 --> 00:14:11,249
Game. It was going to be up to
gaddafi to decide to extradite
259
00:14:11,251 --> 00:14:12,684
Gaddafi to decide to extradite
them. So chances are we're not
260
00:14:12,686 --> 00:14:17,054
Them. So chances are we're not
going to get anybody to come and
261
00:14:17,056 --> 00:14:18,089
Going to get anybody to come and
stand trial.
262
00:14:18,091 --> 00:14:19,156
Stand trial.
>> colonel gaddafi took a look
263
00:14:19,158 --> 00:14:20,257
>> colonel gaddafi took a look
at pictures of the two libyan
264
00:14:20,259 --> 00:14:22,093
At pictures of the two libyan
agents and declared that the men
265
00:14:22,095 --> 00:14:23,661
Agents and declared that the men
weren't guilty, even if they
266
00:14:23,663 --> 00:14:26,064
Weren't guilty, even if they
were, he said he wouldn't hand
267
00:14:26,066 --> 00:14:27,164
Were, he said he wouldn't hand
them over.
268
00:14:27,166 --> 00:14:28,499
Them over.
>> there was no indication that
269
00:14:28,501 --> 00:14:29,867
>> there was no indication that
libya had any inclination at
270
00:14:29,869 --> 00:14:33,637
Libya had any inclination at
that stage in 1991 to give these
271
00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:35,072
That stage in 1991 to give these
men up. So it seemed
272
00:14:35,845 --> 00:14:37,846
Patented gel flex grid
technology.
273
00:14:37,848 --> 00:14:38,947
Technology.
>> do not go to purple.
274
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:41,450
>> do not go to purple.
>> com do not visit a purple
275
00:14:41,452 --> 00:14:48,623
>> com do not visit a purple
store.
276
00:14:59,268 --> 00:15:03,138
>> I felt I had a right to know
the truth about how my daughter
277
00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:08,643
The truth about how my daughter
flora was killed. So following
278
00:15:08,645 --> 00:15:11,746
Flora was killed. So following
the naming of the two suspects,
279
00:15:11,748 --> 00:15:13,281
The naming of the two suspects,
essentially in the west, it was
280
00:15:13,283 --> 00:15:14,649
Essentially in the west, it was
confidently said, of course
281
00:15:14,651 --> 00:15:16,852
Confidently said, of course
gadhafi will never hand them
282
00:15:16,854 --> 00:15:19,254
Gadhafi will never hand them
over. And that was where the
283
00:15:19,256 --> 00:15:20,489
Over. And that was where the
idea dawned in my mind that
284
00:15:20,491 --> 00:15:21,890
Idea dawned in my mind that
perhaps I could help go and see
285
00:15:21,892 --> 00:15:25,093
Perhaps I could help go and see
him and see if if I could
286
00:15:25,095 --> 00:15:26,628
Him and see if if I could
persuade him to allow these two
287
00:15:26,630 --> 00:15:31,032
Persuade him to allow these two
to be handed over for trial.
288
00:15:31,034 --> 00:15:33,168
To be handed over for trial.
>> gadhafi hadn't got a
289
00:15:33,170 --> 00:15:36,971
>> gadhafi hadn't got a
extremely good reputation for
290
00:15:36,973 --> 00:15:41,042
Extremely good reputation for
being a good man. And I saw we
291
00:15:41,044 --> 00:15:43,044
Being a good man. And I saw we
were worried whether he would
292
00:15:43,046 --> 00:15:49,384
Were worried whether he would
come back in one piece.
293
00:15:49,386 --> 00:15:53,688
Come back in one piece.
>> todd blanche hamas jump.
294
00:15:53,690 --> 00:15:56,824
>> todd blanche hamas jump.
>> back then, libya was a
295
00:15:56,826 --> 00:15:58,560
>> back then, libya was a
dictatorship where westerners
296
00:15:58,562 --> 00:16:00,695
Dictatorship where westerners
weren't really free to roam
297
00:16:00,697 --> 00:16:02,463
Weren't really free to roam
around. I mean, it wasn't deemed
298
00:16:02,465 --> 00:16:07,502
Around. I mean, it wasn't deemed
to be a safe place to go. So jim
299
00:16:07,504 --> 00:16:09,270
To be a safe place to go. So jim
swire going there to talk to the
300
00:16:09,272 --> 00:16:12,240
Swire going there to talk to the
man who was accused of
301
00:16:12,242 --> 00:16:14,242
Man who was accused of
orchestrating the lockerbie
302
00:16:14,244 --> 00:16:17,712
Orchestrating the lockerbie
bombing, was a big deal.
303
00:16:17,714 --> 00:16:20,114
Bombing, was a big deal.
>> gaddafi definitely suffered
304
00:16:20,116 --> 00:16:22,684
>> gaddafi definitely suffered
from grandiose delusions. He
305
00:16:22,686 --> 00:16:24,319
From grandiose delusions. He
believed that he was he was not
306
00:16:24,321 --> 00:16:29,524
Believed that he was he was not
an ordinary man. He was a like a
307
00:16:29,526 --> 00:16:31,226
An ordinary man. He was a like a
political messiah. Libya was a
308
00:16:31,228 --> 00:16:33,061
Political messiah. Libya was a
country ruled by fear, where
309
00:16:33,063 --> 00:16:35,496
Country ruled by fear, where
people could not criticize or
310
00:16:35,498 --> 00:16:41,836
People could not criticize or
dare to be against him.
311
00:16:41,838 --> 00:16:43,538
Dare to be against him.
>> supported by a arabic
312
00:16:43,540 --> 00:16:46,841
>> supported by a arabic
journalist who was from sudan,
313
00:16:46,843 --> 00:16:50,946
Journalist who was from sudan,
agreed to accept his help to get
314
00:16:50,948 --> 00:16:52,046
Agreed to accept his help to get
gaddafi.
315
00:16:52,048 --> 00:16:53,114
Gaddafi.
>> how the hell do you go about
316
00:16:53,116 --> 00:16:54,950
>> how the hell do you go about
getting to see colonel gaddafi,
317
00:16:54,952 --> 00:16:56,851
Getting to see colonel gaddafi,
the leader of a rogue state?
318
00:16:56,853 --> 00:16:58,253
The leader of a rogue state?
>> well, credit where credit is
319
00:16:58,255 --> 00:17:01,122
>> well, credit where credit is
due, but he arranged the libyan
320
00:17:01,124 --> 00:17:02,557
Due, but he arranged the libyan
end and helped to get libyan
321
00:17:02,559 --> 00:17:06,094
End and helped to get libyan
visas to get into libya.
322
00:17:06,096 --> 00:17:07,162
Visas to get into libya.
>> a man whose daughter was
323
00:17:07,164 --> 00:17:09,964
>> a man whose daughter was
killed in the bombing of pan am
324
00:17:09,966 --> 00:17:11,032
Killed in the bombing of pan am
flight 103 is to travel to libya
325
00:17:11,034 --> 00:17:12,767
Flight 103 is to travel to libya
this week to try to persuade
326
00:17:12,769 --> 00:17:16,371
This week to try to persuade
moammar gadhafi to hand over to
327
00:17:16,373 --> 00:17:17,472
Moammar gadhafi to hand over to
libyan agents who have been
328
00:17:17,474 --> 00:17:21,709
Libyan agents who have been
accused in the bombing.
329
00:17:21,711 --> 00:17:23,478
Accused in the bombing.
>> I still, of course, felt
330
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,713
>> I still, of course, felt
extremely nervous about going to
331
00:17:25,715 --> 00:17:27,215
Extremely nervous about going to
see gadhafi, who I thought might
332
00:17:27,217 --> 00:17:28,716
See gadhafi, who I thought might
either take me prisoner or have
333
00:17:28,718 --> 00:17:37,492
Either take me prisoner or have
me shot or something like that.
334
00:17:37,494 --> 00:17:39,894
Me shot or something like that.
When I got there. We were parked
335
00:17:39,896 --> 00:17:41,996
When I got there. We were parked
in the waiting area in the
336
00:17:41,998 --> 00:17:44,899
In the waiting area in the
desert. And then a message came
337
00:17:44,901 --> 00:17:48,136
Desert. And then a message came
over his radio saying, okay,
338
00:17:48,138 --> 00:17:52,807
Over his radio saying, okay,
now.
339
00:17:52,809 --> 00:17:55,176
Now.
>> you're effectively walking
340
00:17:55,178 --> 00:18:01,582
>> you're effectively walking
into gadhafi's tent.
341
00:18:01,584 --> 00:18:03,251
Into gadhafi's tent.
>> yes. So I went in and I said,
342
00:18:03,253 --> 00:18:05,153
>> yes. So I went in and I said,
colonel, I'm very pleased to see
343
00:18:05,155 --> 00:18:08,389
Colonel, I'm very pleased to see
you because I want very keen to
344
00:18:08,391 --> 00:18:11,693
You because I want very keen to
talk to you. And I had a
345
00:18:11,695 --> 00:18:12,927
Talk to you. And I had a
briefcase. And round the edge of
346
00:18:12,929 --> 00:18:18,099
Briefcase. And round the edge of
this space was a ring of female
347
00:18:18,101 --> 00:18:20,535
This space was a ring of female
soldiers, and each of them had
348
00:18:20,537 --> 00:18:22,370
Soldiers, and each of them had
an ak 47. And as I opened the
349
00:18:22,372 --> 00:18:24,239
An ak 47. And as I opened the
case, you could hear. Click,
350
00:18:24,241 --> 00:18:26,841
Case, you could hear. Click,
click, click, click, click. As
351
00:18:26,843 --> 00:18:29,377
Click, click, click, click. As
the safety catches came off.
352
00:18:29,379 --> 00:18:32,180
The safety catches came off.
They weren't trusting me. One
353
00:18:32,182 --> 00:18:33,481
They weren't trusting me. One
inch. But gaddafi had decided he
354
00:18:33,483 --> 00:18:34,582
Inch. But gaddafi had decided he
was going to trust me. And I
355
00:18:34,584 --> 00:18:37,018
Was going to trust me. And I
suppose he was brave, he would
356
00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:38,053
Suppose he was brave, he would
say, because a lot of people
357
00:18:38,055 --> 00:18:40,254
Say, because a lot of people
tried to kill him at one time or
358
00:18:40,256 --> 00:18:46,461
Tried to kill him at one time or
another. In the briefcase was a
359
00:18:46,463 --> 00:18:47,562
Another. In the briefcase was a
file full of pictures of flora
360
00:18:47,564 --> 00:18:50,198
File full of pictures of flora
at various ages. He then asked
361
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:51,666
At various ages. He then asked
me why I'd come, and I said to
362
00:18:51,668 --> 00:18:54,569
Me why I'd come, and I said to
him, well, look, two of your men
363
00:18:54,571 --> 00:18:56,738
Him, well, look, two of your men
have been accused of the
364
00:18:56,740 --> 00:18:57,839
Have been accused of the
lockerbie disaster. And I think
365
00:18:57,841 --> 00:18:59,974
Lockerbie disaster. And I think
the only way to find out if
366
00:18:59,976 --> 00:19:01,042
The only way to find out if
that's true or not is to have
367
00:19:01,044 --> 00:19:02,477
That's true or not is to have
them tried in a proper court of
368
00:19:02,479 --> 00:19:03,578
Them tried in a proper court of
law. Is there anything you could
369
00:19:03,580 --> 00:19:07,515
Law. Is there anything you could
do to ease this situation?
370
00:19:07,517 --> 00:19:10,518
Do to ease this situation?
>> kataib hezbollah.
371
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,286
>> kataib hezbollah.
>> after about 40 minutes, I
372
00:19:12,288 --> 00:19:15,823
>> after about 40 minutes, I
felt that at the time to go. And
373
00:19:15,825 --> 00:19:19,594
Felt that at the time to go. And
I took one more thing out of my
374
00:19:19,596 --> 00:19:22,163
I took one more thing out of my
briefcase, a little badge, and
375
00:19:22,165 --> 00:19:24,098
Briefcase, a little badge, and
it said on it, lockerbie. The
376
00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:26,634
It said on it, lockerbie. The
truth must be known. And I
377
00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:28,403
Truth must be known. And I
pinned that badge on his lapel.
378
00:19:28,405 --> 00:19:29,904
Pinned that badge on his lapel.
And again, you could hear click,
379
00:19:29,906 --> 00:19:33,274
And again, you could hear click,
click, click. And when I left
380
00:19:33,276 --> 00:19:34,542
Click, click. And when I left
his presence at that time, he
381
00:19:34,544 --> 00:19:35,643
His presence at that time, he
was wearing that badge on the
382
00:19:35,645 --> 00:19:36,711
Was wearing that badge on the
lapel. I thought it was a good
383
00:19:36,713 --> 00:19:38,747
Lapel. I thought it was a good
thing for him to acknowledge.
384
00:19:38,749 --> 00:19:45,186
Thing for him to acknowledge.
The truth must be known.
385
00:19:45,188 --> 00:19:46,287
The truth must be known.
>> colonel gaddafi insists that
386
00:19:46,289 --> 00:19:47,622
>> colonel gaddafi insists that
his government has been unfairly
387
00:19:47,624 --> 00:19:48,923
His government has been unfairly
accused.
388
00:19:48,925 --> 00:19:50,024
Accused.
>> u.S. And british authorities
389
00:19:50,026 --> 00:19:52,527
>> u.S. And british authorities
claim they have a lot of
390
00:19:52,529 --> 00:19:53,561
Claim they have a lot of
evidence, including eyewitness
391
00:19:53,563 --> 00:19:54,729
Evidence, including eyewitness
identification, that implicates
392
00:19:54,731 --> 00:19:55,797
Identification, that implicates
the two men.
393
00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:56,898
The two men.
>> well, a number of years went
394
00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:58,466
>> well, a number of years went
past before it became clear that
395
00:19:58,468 --> 00:20:00,368
Past before it became clear that
the libyans were going to
396
00:20:00,370 --> 00:20:03,271
The libyans were going to
surrender them.
397
00:20:03,273 --> 00:20:05,139
Surrender them.
>> libya resisted and resisted
398
00:20:05,141 --> 00:20:06,641
>> libya resisted and resisted
handing them over for trial. And
399
00:20:06,643 --> 00:20:07,776
Handing them over for trial. And
the pressure that was applied to
400
00:20:07,778 --> 00:20:09,811
The pressure that was applied to
libya to make this happen was
401
00:20:09,813 --> 00:20:10,912
Libya to make this happen was
sanctions.
402
00:20:10,914 --> 00:20:11,946
Sanctions.
>> iran and libya sanctions bill
403
00:20:11,948 --> 00:20:14,148
>> iran and libya sanctions bill
I signed today will help to deny
404
00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:16,584
I signed today will help to deny
those countries the money they
405
00:20:16,586 --> 00:20:19,788
Those countries the money they
need to finance international
406
00:20:19,790 --> 00:20:20,888
Need to finance international
terrorism.
407
00:20:20,890 --> 00:20:23,124
Terrorism.
>> those sanctions had the
408
00:20:23,126 --> 00:20:25,660
>> those sanctions had the
libyan population, american
409
00:20:25,662 --> 00:20:26,727
Libyan population, american
companies and many european
410
00:20:26,729 --> 00:20:27,762
Companies and many european
companies were not allowed to
411
00:20:27,764 --> 00:20:30,932
Companies were not allowed to
export anything to libya,
412
00:20:30,934 --> 00:20:32,900
Export anything to libya,
including medicines and vital
413
00:20:32,902 --> 00:20:33,535
Including medicines and vital
things for human
414
00:20:33,702 --> 00:20:34,569
Suspects shoule
surrendered for trial promptly.
415
00:20:43,112 --> 00:20:45,112
Reporter: Tonight does mark
the tenth anniversary
416
00:20:45,248 --> 00:20:47,816
Of the disaster that was
pan am flight 103.
417
00:20:50,387 --> 00:20:52,053
Reporter 2: Simultaneous
memorials today
418
00:20:52,055 --> 00:20:54,189
On both sides of the atlantic.
419
00:20:54,324 --> 00:20:56,457
At a parish church
in lockerbie, scotland,
420
00:20:56,559 --> 00:20:58,659
In london's westminster abbey,
421
00:20:58,794 --> 00:21:00,595
At syracuse university,
422
00:21:00,597 --> 00:21:03,598
The campus that lost 35 students
to the terrorists.
423
00:21:09,005 --> 00:21:12,540
Our thoughts and prayers today
424
00:21:12,676 --> 00:21:14,742
Are with the families
and friends
425
00:21:14,878 --> 00:21:19,547
Of those 270 people
from so many countries
426
00:21:19,683 --> 00:21:23,350
Whose lives were tragically
taken in the lockerbie bombing
427
00:21:23,352 --> 00:21:25,620
Ten years ago.
428
00:21:26,555 --> 00:21:27,922
Man 10: Turn back the clock.
429
00:21:29,592 --> 00:21:38,165
Let it be seven o'clock on the
evening of December 21st, 1988.
430
00:21:38,167 --> 00:21:42,036
The pressures of personal
grief have been compounded,
431
00:21:42,171 --> 00:21:46,441
For many, by the frustrations
of the fight for answers.
432
00:21:46,576 --> 00:21:50,044
I remember thinking that libya
would never turn them over.
433
00:21:50,046 --> 00:21:56,984
We find no answer to the
soul-searing question... Why?
434
00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:00,455
Suse: We were not interested
in blaming anyone.
435
00:22:01,057 --> 00:22:03,991
We wanted to find the real deal.
436
00:22:03,993 --> 00:22:05,593
And so, if it took time,
it took time.
437
00:22:15,104 --> 00:22:16,503
Reporter: The years
of diplomatic efforts
438
00:22:16,505 --> 00:22:18,706
Have finally paid off,
439
00:22:18,708 --> 00:22:21,442
With a handover of the
two libyan suspects.
440
00:22:21,544 --> 00:22:23,777
It's clear
that the sanctions worked,
441
00:22:23,913 --> 00:22:27,648
Because the minute the pair
were turned over to custody,
442
00:22:27,783 --> 00:22:30,651
The sanctions were suspended.
443
00:22:30,653 --> 00:22:34,055
Reporter: Abdelbaset al-megrahi
and al-amin khalifa fhimah
444
00:22:34,057 --> 00:22:36,691
Are charged with conspiracy
and murder.
445
00:22:38,394 --> 00:22:42,596
That was very surprising that
they were turned over for trial.
446
00:22:42,732 --> 00:22:45,733
And we were very hopeful
at that point
447
00:22:45,868 --> 00:22:49,203
That the truth would come out.
448
00:22:50,806 --> 00:22:53,407
Two libyan suspects to be tried
449
00:22:53,543 --> 00:22:55,943
In a special court
in the netherlands,
450
00:22:56,078 --> 00:22:58,345
But under the laws of the nation
where the wreckage landed,
451
00:22:58,347 --> 00:23:00,281
The laws of scotland.
452
00:23:01,885 --> 00:23:05,018
Because I'd always an interest
in the lockerbie bombing,
453
00:23:05,154 --> 00:23:09,022
I put my hand up and volunteered
to cover the lockerbie trial.
454
00:23:09,024 --> 00:23:13,227
The trial is expected to last
more than one year.
455
00:23:13,363 --> 00:23:16,430
Almost $20m have been spent
456
00:23:16,566 --> 00:23:19,300
Building the court, prison
and media center,
457
00:23:19,302 --> 00:23:23,604
On a tiny patch of dutch soil
designated as scotland.
458
00:23:24,741 --> 00:23:27,508
This was going to be
a scottish court
459
00:23:27,643 --> 00:23:32,713
Inside a former us airbase
inside of the netherlands,
460
00:23:32,848 --> 00:23:35,649
And that area would be declared
scottish territory
461
00:23:35,651 --> 00:23:37,718
For the duration of the trial.
462
00:23:37,853 --> 00:23:39,887
So, they were tried
under scottish law.
463
00:23:42,458 --> 00:23:46,928
Because scottish judges
were trying the case,
464
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:49,797
My job was to assist
465
00:23:49,932 --> 00:23:52,065
The international press
and news agencies
466
00:23:52,201 --> 00:23:54,168
In understanding the trial.
467
00:23:56,205 --> 00:23:57,805
Victoria: There's quite a bit
of difference
468
00:23:57,807 --> 00:24:00,273
Between scottish law
and american law.
469
00:24:00,275 --> 00:24:04,211
Under scottish law,
there is no death penalty,
470
00:24:04,213 --> 00:24:08,149
There's no life imprisonment
without parole.
471
00:24:08,151 --> 00:24:10,351
So, we were horrified
that this was supposed to be,
472
00:24:10,353 --> 00:24:12,553
You know,
the trial of the century
473
00:24:12,688 --> 00:24:16,357
That was going to bring justice
to our loved ones.
474
00:24:20,363 --> 00:24:22,696
Jim: We arranged
to live in holland
475
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:24,898
For the duration of the trial.
476
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:26,767
And call me obsessed
or what you like,
477
00:24:26,902 --> 00:24:28,569
I was determined to extract all
the information I could
478
00:24:28,671 --> 00:24:30,037
From the trial.
479
00:24:31,907 --> 00:24:33,574
This is why we're here.
This is my daughter.
480
00:24:33,709 --> 00:24:36,443
This is theo cohen.
She was 20 years old
481
00:24:36,578 --> 00:24:38,979
When she was blown up
over lockerbie, scotland
482
00:24:38,982 --> 00:24:41,015
Over 11 years ago.
483
00:24:43,185 --> 00:24:44,385
Reporter: The two libyan
defendants arrived
484
00:24:44,387 --> 00:24:45,519
For this landmark trial,
485
00:24:45,655 --> 00:24:47,521
Coming face to face
486
00:24:47,523 --> 00:24:49,390
With the relatives
of pan am 103's victims.
487
00:24:51,461 --> 00:24:53,661
You know, there was
sort of, for me personally,
488
00:24:53,796 --> 00:24:55,596
Kind of a disconnect.
489
00:24:56,599 --> 00:25:01,535
That these two little guys,
sitting there in their robes,
490
00:25:01,537 --> 00:25:04,671
Dressed in holy garb,
so to speak,
491
00:25:04,673 --> 00:25:08,843
Could have committed
these enormous atrocities.
492
00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:15,282
It was very hard for me to
actually connect them
493
00:25:15,417 --> 00:25:17,652
To having murdered my boy.
494
00:25:19,221 --> 00:25:21,689
I'm hoping for peace
at the end of it.
495
00:25:21,824 --> 00:25:24,091
That I can finally grieve for my
daughter and my grand...
496
00:25:24,093 --> 00:25:25,559
Sorry.
497
00:25:27,030 --> 00:25:30,163
For some of them, it was
sort of an emotional release.
498
00:25:30,299 --> 00:25:33,634
They talked about it
as a sort of moment of calm,
499
00:25:33,769 --> 00:25:37,038
When they could finally see
the accused.
500
00:25:38,107 --> 00:25:42,643
Others were much more angry, and
they were angry with these men.
501
00:25:42,778 --> 00:25:44,778
They were convinced,
even before the trial,
502
00:25:44,881 --> 00:25:46,713
That they were guilty.
503
00:25:46,715 --> 00:25:49,950
I want them to see my
daughter's picture.
504
00:25:52,588 --> 00:25:54,755
I'm gonna say,
"this is what you did."
505
00:25:56,392 --> 00:25:59,460
I lost four on that plane,
my daughter was pregnant.
506
00:25:59,462 --> 00:26:01,194
I'd like to see
them get executed.
507
00:26:01,330 --> 00:26:03,197
I'm sorry,
that's how I feel about it.
508
00:26:04,867 --> 00:26:07,801
All of us had been exposed
509
00:26:07,904 --> 00:26:11,071
To the publicity, the negative
publicity about libya,
510
00:26:11,074 --> 00:26:14,308
About gaddafi,
the mad dog of africa.
511
00:26:15,744 --> 00:26:17,744
There was an assumption
512
00:26:17,746 --> 00:26:20,013
That these two libyans
were clearly guilty,
513
00:26:20,149 --> 00:26:22,283
And there must be a lot
of evidence against them.
514
00:26:24,287 --> 00:26:28,755
Trials, by their nature,
as complicated to cover,
515
00:26:28,757 --> 00:26:30,691
And this was going to be
one of the most complicated
516
00:26:30,793 --> 00:26:32,727
In uk history.
517
00:26:36,899 --> 00:26:39,232
A very important witness
for the prosecution
518
00:26:39,368 --> 00:26:41,302
Was edwin bollier.
519
00:26:47,042 --> 00:26:50,177
Edwin bollier owned a company
called mebo ltd,
520
00:26:50,179 --> 00:26:52,713
Which was in zurich,
521
00:26:52,848 --> 00:26:55,716
Which, according to the
prosecution, had manufactured
522
00:26:55,818 --> 00:26:58,319
The timing device
that detonated the bomb.
523
00:26:58,788 --> 00:27:03,557
And a fragment of the timing
device was found in lockerbie.
524
00:27:07,663 --> 00:27:11,332
This is the one item of evidence
525
00:27:11,334 --> 00:27:14,935
That led the track to
libyan intelligence agents
526
00:27:15,070 --> 00:27:18,805
Having a role in the downing
of pan am 103.
527
00:27:18,807 --> 00:27:22,810
So, it's where the dots
all start to connect together.
528
00:27:28,951 --> 00:27:31,218
He's a westerner,
529
00:27:31,353 --> 00:27:33,286
He is not connected to
the libyan government,
530
00:27:33,422 --> 00:27:35,356
Other than through business,
531
00:27:35,358 --> 00:27:37,558
And we assumed that he
would get on the stand
532
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,492
And tell the same story
533
00:27:39,494 --> 00:27:41,494
That he told us.
534
00:27:41,964 --> 00:27:44,831
But all of a sudden,
he wasn't quite as certain
535
00:27:44,833 --> 00:27:47,868
That his timer
blew up pan am 103.
536
00:27:49,071 --> 00:27:51,438
Bollier appeared to recant
his previous testimony.
537
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,774
He said different things
538
00:27:53,776 --> 00:27:55,176
To that that'd he'd originally
told the police.
539
00:27:55,277 --> 00:27:56,377
He seemed mercurial.
540
00:27:56,512 --> 00:27:58,379
He seemed untrustworthy.
541
00:28:14,263 --> 00:28:17,931
We thought he was going to be
a very important part
542
00:28:17,933 --> 00:28:20,533
To find the accused guilty.
543
00:28:20,535 --> 00:28:22,536
And then he comes and switches.
544
00:28:30,746 --> 00:28:33,213
Nic: Edwin bollier would have
every reason
545
00:28:33,216 --> 00:28:35,682
To essentially recant
what he'd previously said.
546
00:28:35,684 --> 00:28:37,150
Don't forget, muammar gaddafi,
547
00:28:37,286 --> 00:28:38,952
When this court case
was going on,
548
00:28:38,954 --> 00:28:41,354
Was a formidable power.
549
00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:43,090
He could reach you.
550
00:28:43,092 --> 00:28:46,093
You could, as a witness,
be justifiably scared
551
00:28:46,095 --> 00:28:47,962
Of going against
the libyan government.
552
00:28:49,898 --> 00:28:52,900
I now understand
why he might have said that.
553
00:28:53,035 --> 00:28:57,571
I should make it clear
that I consider the evidence
554
00:28:57,707 --> 00:29:00,107
About pt/35b
555
00:29:00,242 --> 00:29:01,976
To be a falsehood
from beginning to end.
556
00:29:03,312 --> 00:29:06,847
There was a lot of doubt
about where this was found.
557
00:29:06,982 --> 00:29:09,249
By whom it was found.
558
00:29:09,252 --> 00:29:12,719
It seemed to me quite remarkable
559
00:29:12,854 --> 00:29:17,057
That a very tiny, tiny fragment
560
00:29:17,192 --> 00:29:21,896
Should miraculously be found
in the wilds outside lockerbie.
561
00:29:23,733 --> 00:29:25,466
And questions then raised
562
00:29:25,601 --> 00:29:30,170
Over how such a tiny, tiny
fragment could be identified.
563
00:29:32,141 --> 00:29:35,008
Interviewer: So, do you think
that the scottish police
564
00:29:35,010 --> 00:29:36,911
-Tampered with the evidence?
-Yes.
565
00:29:42,351 --> 00:29:43,951
That cracks the
prosecution's case right there.
566
00:29:54,562 --> 00:29:57,430
Now, the lockerbie trial
has heard crucial evidence
567
00:29:57,432 --> 00:29:59,565
Linking the two libyan accused
to the place
568
00:29:59,668 --> 00:30:02,001
Where it's claimed the bomb
was originally planted.
569
00:30:03,237 --> 00:30:05,104
Reporter: Fragments of a suit
570
00:30:05,239 --> 00:30:06,439
Recovered from the wreckage
of the flight
571
00:30:06,541 --> 00:30:08,808
Were traced back to
a clothes shop in malta.
572
00:30:10,044 --> 00:30:13,446
Giving evidence,
the shop owner, tony gauci, said
573
00:30:13,581 --> 00:30:15,648
A libyan man resembling megrahi
had been in his shop
574
00:30:15,650 --> 00:30:17,717
About a fortnight
before christmas, 1988.
575
00:30:22,057 --> 00:30:23,589
Gauci is significant,
576
00:30:23,591 --> 00:30:25,991
Because he is the one
who can identify megrahi.
577
00:30:25,993 --> 00:30:30,396
He says megrahi came into his
store to buy random clothes
578
00:30:30,532 --> 00:30:33,866
That were packed around the bomb
in the suitcase
579
00:30:33,869 --> 00:30:37,136
That was put aboard, ultimately,
pan am 103.
580
00:30:37,138 --> 00:30:40,540
He's the witness
that fingers megrahi.
581
00:30:43,545 --> 00:30:47,012
Now, out of all of that,
the most controversial thing
582
00:30:47,014 --> 00:30:50,683
Was mr gauci's identification.
583
00:30:50,818 --> 00:30:52,385
Where would you like to stand?
584
00:30:53,854 --> 00:30:57,624
It was put up
by the scottish police.
585
00:30:59,961 --> 00:31:01,494
Later, it became clear
586
00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:05,498
That tony gauci had actually
seen a picture of megrahi
587
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:08,902
In a magazine,
shortly before the line-up.
588
00:31:10,838 --> 00:31:13,038
But also, megrahi,
it turned out,
589
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,040
Was the only libyan
in the line-up.
590
00:31:15,176 --> 00:31:20,446
So, that's where the
prosecutions case weakens again.
591
00:31:20,949 --> 00:31:22,115
Could you all turn round.
592
00:31:23,851 --> 00:31:25,718
Clare: It's ridiculous.
593
00:31:25,853 --> 00:31:30,924
Even with all of that, he
doesn't say it's definitely him.
594
00:31:35,130 --> 00:31:38,331
The impression I got
595
00:31:38,333 --> 00:31:41,066
Was that he was under
some pressure
596
00:31:41,068 --> 00:31:44,938
To um... Accommodate
the police inquiry.
597
00:31:47,074 --> 00:31:48,741
It was quite difficult
to establish
598
00:31:48,876 --> 00:31:51,010
Just how many statements
this man had given.
599
00:31:51,012 --> 00:31:54,814
But what is clear
is that his recollection
600
00:31:54,949 --> 00:31:59,552
Of critical matters
varied hugely.
601
00:31:59,554 --> 00:32:00,954
I mean, for example,
602
00:32:01,055 --> 00:32:04,824
The man who'd purchased
the maltese clothing
603
00:32:04,925 --> 00:32:08,761
Was described as much older,
much bigger.
604
00:32:08,763 --> 00:32:12,898
He had identified other people,
quite apart from megrahi.
605
00:32:13,034 --> 00:32:15,634
And the identification
of megrahi
606
00:32:15,636 --> 00:32:18,103
Was, I would say, laughable.
607
00:32:18,105 --> 00:32:19,638
It didn't quite deliver,
608
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,842
Because he had
changing recollections
609
00:32:22,844 --> 00:32:25,444
Of what the suspect
looked like,
610
00:32:25,446 --> 00:32:28,514
That his initial, seemingly
positive, identification
611
00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:29,849
Of megrahi,
612
00:32:29,851 --> 00:32:31,985
Then seemed less positive.
613
00:32:32,086 --> 00:32:34,187
He seemed like
an unsatisfactory witness
614
00:32:34,322 --> 00:32:35,855
When finally put on the stand.
615
00:32:35,857 --> 00:32:42,127
Tony gauci was a simple,
decent businessman,
616
00:32:42,263 --> 00:32:44,797
Eking out a living in this shop.
617
00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:48,201
The police show up
in the biggest case
618
00:32:48,203 --> 00:32:51,804
In the history of malta and
started asking him questions.
619
00:32:51,806 --> 00:32:54,607
I honestly think
he was just a man
620
00:32:54,609 --> 00:32:57,010
That was trying to be honest
621
00:32:57,111 --> 00:32:58,911
And tell the truth
to the best of his recollection.
622
00:33:05,152 --> 00:33:08,487
We found out subsequently
a lot of things
623
00:33:08,489 --> 00:33:10,623
That weren't known
at the time of the trial,
624
00:33:10,625 --> 00:33:13,092
And if they were, would
have completely demolished
625
00:33:13,094 --> 00:33:16,229
Any credibility that he had.
626
00:33:16,231 --> 00:33:17,897
Such as him being
paid a lot of money
627
00:33:17,998 --> 00:33:20,699
After the trial.
628
00:33:20,701 --> 00:33:24,437
And not only was
tony gauci paid money,
629
00:33:24,572 --> 00:33:27,773
But his brother, paul gauci,
was also paid money.
630
00:33:27,876 --> 00:33:30,375
One of the pieces of evidence
that emerged later,
631
00:33:30,377 --> 00:33:33,246
That wasn't presented in court,
632
00:33:33,381 --> 00:33:37,583
Was from notes
from a scottish police officer,
633
00:33:37,585 --> 00:33:41,987
Where tony gauci said that he
wanted some form of compensation
634
00:33:42,123 --> 00:33:44,123
For his information.
635
00:33:44,258 --> 00:33:47,726
Which... Is not outwith
the practice
636
00:33:47,728 --> 00:33:51,664
Of the us department of justice
to do that.
637
00:33:51,766 --> 00:33:54,333
And I believe that
an fbi agent said,
638
00:33:54,335 --> 00:33:57,070
"we can get some money
to help re-locate him
639
00:33:57,205 --> 00:34:00,940
After the court case was over,
for his safety and protection."
640
00:34:01,676 --> 00:34:05,144
We didn't know what
the threat to tony gauci was.
641
00:34:05,947 --> 00:34:07,813
Interviewer: How much money
are we talking here?
642
00:34:07,815 --> 00:34:09,949
They got millions.
643
00:34:09,951 --> 00:34:11,884
I think a million dollars.
644
00:34:12,019 --> 00:34:13,286
Two million dollars, I think,
for tony gauci,
645
00:34:13,421 --> 00:34:15,554
A million for paul.
646
00:34:15,556 --> 00:34:17,957
He was never called
as a witness,
647
00:34:17,959 --> 00:34:20,826
So what was he getting
one million dollars for?
648
00:34:20,828 --> 00:34:23,262
He didn't say
anything at the trial.
649
00:34:24,431 --> 00:34:26,299
You can't have
people being paid.
650
00:34:27,635 --> 00:34:32,271
It is totally contrary
to the interests of justice.
651
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:42,515
The trial period
was a very difficult one for me
652
00:34:42,650 --> 00:34:44,984
Because at the beginning
of it, I still believed
653
00:34:45,085 --> 00:34:46,251
That our government
had been telling us the truth
654
00:34:46,387 --> 00:34:48,020
As best they knew it.
655
00:34:49,924 --> 00:34:52,858
But the lack
of credible evidence
656
00:34:52,860 --> 00:34:55,661
Was what converted
me to realizing
657
00:34:55,663 --> 00:34:58,464
That the intelligence services
of britain and america
658
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,500
Had other things in mind
than truth and justice.
659
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,407
Reporter: In one of these cars
660
00:35:08,409 --> 00:35:10,876
Is a witness from libya
who could decide the outcome
661
00:35:10,979 --> 00:35:13,412
Of britain's biggest
murder trial.
662
00:35:13,414 --> 00:35:16,949
Abdul majid was once
a libyan secret agent
663
00:35:16,951 --> 00:35:18,751
And now fears that his former
libyan colleagues
664
00:35:18,753 --> 00:35:19,585
Want to kill him.
665
00:35:21,756 --> 00:35:23,956
Phil: The double agent,
who we called puzzle piece,
666
00:35:23,958 --> 00:35:26,058
Was willing to testify.
667
00:35:27,695 --> 00:35:32,331
You know, that was the real, you
know, crux of that trial.
668
00:35:33,635 --> 00:35:35,835
There was some
critical questions.
669
00:35:35,970 --> 00:35:39,839
"did you see,
with your own eyes,
670
00:35:39,974 --> 00:35:44,243
Those two suspects,
al-megrahi and fhimah,
671
00:35:44,378 --> 00:35:47,913
Bring in the bag
containing the bomb
672
00:35:47,915 --> 00:35:50,650
That brought down
pan am flight 103?"
673
00:36:01,061 --> 00:36:03,729
Two libyans are on trial at a
court set up in the netherlands,
674
00:36:03,864 --> 00:36:05,731
They have always insisted
they are innocent.
675
00:36:05,733 --> 00:36:07,733
The prosecution has hung
much of its case
676
00:36:07,868 --> 00:36:11,070
On the man who was on the stand
today.
677
00:36:11,739 --> 00:36:13,873
Reporter: Abdul majid giaka
is the super-grass
678
00:36:14,008 --> 00:36:16,542
Billed as the
lockerbie-trial star witness.
679
00:36:16,677 --> 00:36:19,344
He had presented to himself
to the cia
680
00:36:19,479 --> 00:36:21,613
As working for
libyan intelligence.
681
00:36:21,749 --> 00:36:25,016
So, this is somebody
who would seem to be able
682
00:36:25,018 --> 00:36:28,487
To put the finger
on the culpability
683
00:36:28,489 --> 00:36:30,756
Of megrahi and fhimah in this.
684
00:36:31,692 --> 00:36:33,292
Reporter: From behind a screen,
685
00:36:33,394 --> 00:36:35,427
With his voice disguised
electronically,
686
00:36:35,429 --> 00:36:37,562
Abdul majid told the court
687
00:36:37,564 --> 00:36:40,232
How libyan intelligence
planned the bombing.
688
00:36:40,368 --> 00:36:42,834
Reporter 2: He told the court
he'd seen explosives
689
00:36:42,836 --> 00:36:44,970
In the desk drawer
of one of the defendants,
690
00:36:44,972 --> 00:36:48,107
And he had seen both defendants
with a brown suitcase.
691
00:36:48,242 --> 00:36:51,042
Reporter 3: Abdul majid claimed
that before the bombing
692
00:36:51,044 --> 00:36:53,912
He passed all this on
to his cia handlers.
693
00:36:54,148 --> 00:36:56,248
He never mentioned to us
694
00:36:56,384 --> 00:37:00,652
Anything about any knowledge
at all about the pan am bombing.
695
00:37:00,788 --> 00:37:02,154
And we were handling him.
696
00:37:03,791 --> 00:37:06,725
He was asked that question.
He knew nothing about it.
697
00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:13,732
All I know is that I spent a lot
of time with him initially.
698
00:37:13,867 --> 00:37:16,267
And I'm a skeptical kind of guy,
you know,
699
00:37:16,269 --> 00:37:18,670
Until proven otherwise.
700
00:37:18,672 --> 00:37:23,074
I found him just... Honest.
701
00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:25,677
Um...
702
00:37:25,813 --> 00:37:28,480
I wouldn't believe he would
tell a lie about nothing.
703
00:37:28,616 --> 00:37:29,815
I think that he changed
the story.
704
00:37:29,950 --> 00:37:32,083
He was looking for more money.
705
00:37:32,085 --> 00:37:34,686
He was looking for
possible resettlement.
706
00:37:34,688 --> 00:37:37,088
He would have told us
if he knew anything.
707
00:37:37,224 --> 00:37:39,624
Doesn't make logical sense
that he would hide it then,
708
00:37:39,626 --> 00:37:41,927
But all of a sudden, later,
know everything.
709
00:37:43,097 --> 00:37:45,030
I think he was a manipulator
and a shyster.
710
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:51,102
I certainly have never had any
reason to question his honesty.
711
00:37:51,104 --> 00:37:54,506
Everything that he said,
we were able to substantiate.
712
00:37:56,109 --> 00:37:59,178
John: The fbi are
primarily cops.
713
00:37:59,313 --> 00:38:02,514
And you get this guy walking
in, a former cia agent,
714
00:38:02,516 --> 00:38:04,383
Who has initially claimed to be
715
00:38:04,385 --> 00:38:06,585
A true
libyan intelligence officer,
716
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:07,586
They grabbed him immediately.
717
00:38:07,721 --> 00:38:09,321
This can make their case.
718
00:38:09,457 --> 00:38:11,357
This will make the fbi
look good.
719
00:38:12,593 --> 00:38:14,459
The fbi and the cia
have a history
720
00:38:14,594 --> 00:38:15,995
Of not getting along
with each other.
721
00:38:16,130 --> 00:38:17,696
They don't trust each other.
722
00:38:20,668 --> 00:38:21,867
Reporter: The former
double agent
723
00:38:22,002 --> 00:38:24,670
Is not facing cross-examination
by a defense
724
00:38:24,805 --> 00:38:26,872
Seeking to undermine
the credibility
725
00:38:27,007 --> 00:38:30,475
Of a man who stands to collect
a $4m reward
726
00:38:30,477 --> 00:38:33,612
If the two suspects
are convicted.
727
00:38:34,214 --> 00:38:36,948
Eddie: He was such a dreadful
witness.
728
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:39,684
He actually did a lot more good
for the defense
729
00:38:39,686 --> 00:38:42,087
Than you could ever imagine.
730
00:38:42,222 --> 00:38:44,556
He'd gone from knowing nothing
about lockerbie,
731
00:38:44,692 --> 00:38:47,893
To later giving evidence
to the fbi
732
00:38:48,028 --> 00:38:50,762
That he had seen both
fhimah and megrahi
733
00:38:50,764 --> 00:38:53,498
With a brown samsonite suitcase,
734
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:57,035
Going through the airport
the day before the bombing.
735
00:38:57,137 --> 00:38:59,838
They'd gone through,
avoiding any security checks.
736
00:38:59,973 --> 00:39:02,641
I mean, this was dynamite
if it were true.
737
00:39:02,776 --> 00:39:04,910
But clearly it was not true.
738
00:39:04,912 --> 00:39:07,579
It's been something
he had invented,
739
00:39:07,581 --> 00:39:09,581
Perhaps encouraged to invent
later.
740
00:39:09,583 --> 00:39:12,584
This is bs. This is...
741
00:39:12,586 --> 00:39:15,186
..The government, you know,
manipulating the evidence
742
00:39:15,289 --> 00:39:17,656
To get whatever outcome
that they wanted.
743
00:39:17,658 --> 00:39:21,860
Even giaka didn't try to
incriminate fhimah,
744
00:39:21,862 --> 00:39:25,264
In terms of being a member of
the intelligence service.
745
00:39:25,399 --> 00:39:29,668
And that, in my view, was
a very clear signal to anyone,
746
00:39:29,670 --> 00:39:31,870
Including the judges,
747
00:39:32,005 --> 00:39:35,974
That this case against fhimah
was dreadful.
748
00:39:37,744 --> 00:39:40,279
Nic: Another flawed witness
for the prosecution.
749
00:39:40,414 --> 00:39:43,014
His testimony doesn't stand up.
750
00:39:43,016 --> 00:39:46,485
He's seen as something as
a walter mitty.
751
00:39:46,587 --> 00:39:48,019
Somebody who says
they're something
752
00:39:48,021 --> 00:39:50,021
That they're actually not.
753
00:39:50,157 --> 00:39:53,325
So, his evidence is, therefore,
much less credible.
754
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:58,497
Victoria: It was confusing
for us
755
00:39:58,499 --> 00:40:00,299
To understand
what was going on.
756
00:40:00,434 --> 00:40:03,302
This person is being put on
as an expert witness, or...
757
00:40:03,304 --> 00:40:08,307
I mean, to us,
it was quite a sham.
758
00:40:11,612 --> 00:40:14,513
Reporter: The day long-awaited
by lockerbie investigators
759
00:40:14,515 --> 00:40:16,982
And victims' families
is at hand.
760
00:40:16,984 --> 00:40:19,785
Reporter 2: The court that has
heard 84 days
761
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,786
And three million words
of evidence
762
00:40:21,788 --> 00:40:23,922
Is ready for the final day
763
00:40:23,924 --> 00:40:26,858
Of britain's biggest
mass murder trial.
764
00:40:26,994 --> 00:40:28,927
This is another part
of the healing.
765
00:40:29,062 --> 00:40:31,930
You know, it's still,
you know, his murderers.
766
00:40:31,932 --> 00:40:34,666
Right? It's still the people
767
00:40:34,802 --> 00:40:36,201
That committed
this horrendous crime.
768
00:40:36,336 --> 00:40:41,072
So, there is that sense of,
like, wanting to kind of see...
769
00:40:41,074 --> 00:40:44,276
You just never stop wanting
justice to somehow be served.
770
00:40:49,082 --> 00:40:51,149
It wasn't until near
the end of the trial
771
00:40:51,251 --> 00:40:53,885
That I realized
I could not continue
772
00:40:54,021 --> 00:40:58,357
To believe that there was
a cogent body of evidence
773
00:40:58,359 --> 00:41:01,794
That justified the finding of
either of these two men guilty.
774
00:41:06,634 --> 00:41:10,435
I've never really been
a big conspiracy theorist
775
00:41:10,570 --> 00:41:12,171
To being with.
776
00:41:12,306 --> 00:41:16,241
But I believe that the...
777
00:41:16,376 --> 00:41:20,679
..The libyans were responsible
for the bombing.
778
00:41:24,051 --> 00:41:26,084
John: I never believed
that libya did it.
779
00:41:27,655 --> 00:41:30,989
Our government and us
presidents have hated gaddafi
780
00:41:31,124 --> 00:41:33,826
Since he took over in 1969.
781
00:41:35,295 --> 00:41:38,430
He kicked all of the american
oil companies out of libya.
782
00:41:39,799 --> 00:41:43,001
He confiscated our biggest
airbase anywhere in the world.
783
00:41:44,705 --> 00:41:46,905
I think the us government
had an agenda.
66894
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