1 00:00:04,613 --> 00:00:06,571 In the criminal justice system, 2 00:00:06,658 --> 00:00:08,095 the people are represented 3 00:00:08,182 --> 00:00:10,401 by two separate, yet equally important groups: 4 00:00:10,532 --> 00:00:12,360 the police, who investigate crime, 5 00:00:12,534 --> 00:00:15,102 and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders. 6 00:00:15,189 --> 00:00:17,756 These are their stories. 7 00:00:17,930 --> 00:00:21,325 I'm telling you, you have it all wrong. 8 00:00:21,456 --> 00:00:23,414 I'm not responsible. 9 00:00:23,588 --> 00:00:25,112 Listen to me. 10 00:00:25,286 --> 00:00:26,809 Listen to me. 11 00:00:26,983 --> 00:00:28,898 Please, I have to go. 12 00:00:32,162 --> 00:00:35,466 Do I hear 400,000? 13 00:00:35,470 --> 00:00:38,516 Do I hear 410,000? 14 00:00:39,604 --> 00:00:42,386 Do I hear 410? 15 00:00:42,390 --> 00:00:44,605 410, right down in front. 16 00:00:44,609 --> 00:00:46,129 All good, boss? You're missing the auction. 17 00:00:46,133 --> 00:00:49,310 Do I hear 415,000? 18 00:00:49,484 --> 00:00:50,920 Do I hear 415? 19 00:00:51,094 --> 00:00:52,617 415. 20 00:00:52,791 --> 00:00:55,707 Do I hear 420? 21 00:00:55,838 --> 00:00:58,532 420 in the back from Wendy. 22 00:00:58,536 --> 00:01:00,582 Do I hear 430? 23 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,494 Do I hear 430? 24 00:01:03,498 --> 00:01:05,195 Hammer's up. 25 00:01:05,326 --> 00:01:07,458 Damn, Andy. What a find. 26 00:01:07,632 --> 00:01:09,372 Hammer's up. 27 00:01:10,374 --> 00:01:13,638 Sold at 420,000. 28 00:01:17,164 --> 00:01:18,382 You are my hero. 29 00:01:29,089 --> 00:01:30,086 Who's our vic? 30 00:01:30,090 --> 00:01:32,396 Andrew Carson, age 41. 31 00:01:32,527 --> 00:01:33,919 Super says he lives alone. 32 00:01:34,094 --> 00:01:35,747 -Who found him? -Cleaning lady. 33 00:01:35,834 --> 00:01:37,358 She'd been working for him two years. 34 00:01:37,532 --> 00:01:39,292 Always comes at 10:00 once he's out the door. 35 00:01:39,403 --> 00:01:41,184 Didn't know much about him. We took a statement. 36 00:01:41,188 --> 00:01:42,493 Blunt force trauma? 37 00:01:42,580 --> 00:01:44,843 Yep, with this. 38 00:01:44,930 --> 00:01:46,410 Made of stone. 39 00:01:46,584 --> 00:01:49,239 Guy's got a bunch of statues and stuff like this around. 40 00:01:49,326 --> 00:01:51,023 -Any prints on it? -Nope. 41 00:01:51,154 --> 00:01:53,852 But we did find a brown hair on his shirt. 42 00:01:54,026 --> 00:01:56,159 Okay, let's run DNA. Time of death? 43 00:01:56,246 --> 00:01:57,813 MLI said, based on temp and rigidity, 44 00:01:57,900 --> 00:02:00,028 somewhere between 9:00 and 11:00 last night. 45 00:02:00,032 --> 00:02:01,512 This building got any surveillance? 46 00:02:01,686 --> 00:02:03,688 Cameras at the entrance by the keypad. 47 00:02:03,862 --> 00:02:05,647 Don't look like there was a struggle. 48 00:02:05,821 --> 00:02:07,518 And no sign of forced entry. 49 00:02:07,649 --> 00:02:10,042 No glasses out. Lights are bright. 50 00:02:10,173 --> 00:02:12,606 Doesn't look like he was entertaining. 51 00:02:12,610 --> 00:02:14,086 He wasn't robbed. 52 00:02:14,090 --> 00:02:15,918 Wallet's here on the table. 53 00:02:17,354 --> 00:02:20,183 That's a Tag Heuer smartwatch. 54 00:02:20,270 --> 00:02:21,358 I'm not watch guy. 55 00:02:21,445 --> 00:02:23,095 3K on a good day. 56 00:02:23,099 --> 00:02:24,662 All right, let's check his biometric data, 57 00:02:24,666 --> 00:02:26,450 see if we can fix the exact time of death. 58 00:02:26,624 --> 00:02:28,278 Meridien Auction House, 59 00:02:28,365 --> 00:02:30,102 A Night of Magnificent Discoveries, 60 00:02:30,106 --> 00:02:33,370 August 26, 6:00 p.m. 61 00:02:33,544 --> 00:02:35,503 Well, we know where he was last night. 62 00:03:23,551 --> 00:03:25,335 Andy wasn't just at the auction. 63 00:03:25,509 --> 00:03:27,163 He organized the auction. 64 00:03:27,250 --> 00:03:28,730 He was our head of antiquities, 65 00:03:28,817 --> 00:03:30,297 one of the best in the business. 66 00:03:30,471 --> 00:03:33,038 He was great with sellers, the fanciest buyers, 67 00:03:33,169 --> 00:03:36,390 super knowledgeable, discreet. 68 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,388 He scored unbelievable items. 69 00:03:38,392 --> 00:03:39,697 We heard he lived alone. 70 00:03:39,828 --> 00:03:41,177 Anyone we should notify? 71 00:03:41,308 --> 00:03:42,566 Not that I know of. 72 00:03:42,570 --> 00:03:44,441 His parents had passed. 73 00:03:44,572 --> 00:03:46,748 He divorced a few years ago. No kids. 74 00:03:46,922 --> 00:03:48,224 Ex-wife lives in the Hamptons. 75 00:03:48,228 --> 00:03:49,228 I don't think they speak. 76 00:03:49,359 --> 00:03:50,795 He dating anyone? 77 00:03:50,926 --> 00:03:52,754 More like, who wasn't he dating? 78 00:03:52,884 --> 00:03:55,013 But no one special, I think. 79 00:03:55,017 --> 00:03:56,536 What time did he leave here last night? 80 00:03:56,540 --> 00:03:58,542 Auction ended around 7:45. 81 00:03:58,673 --> 00:03:59,887 He was gone by 8:00. 82 00:03:59,891 --> 00:04:01,893 -He leave alone? -Yeah. 83 00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:03,417 I offered to go celebrate with him. 84 00:04:03,591 --> 00:04:05,371 The auction was a major success. 85 00:04:05,375 --> 00:04:08,335 But he said he was headed home to recharge. 86 00:04:08,465 --> 00:04:09,858 He was exhausted. 87 00:04:12,382 --> 00:04:14,467 Anything else? 88 00:04:14,471 --> 00:04:17,383 The only weird thing is that Andy was late to the auction. 89 00:04:17,387 --> 00:04:19,211 He'd been planning the night for five months, 90 00:04:19,215 --> 00:04:21,609 but he was stuck on some call in his office, 91 00:04:21,739 --> 00:04:22,780 so it must have been important. 92 00:04:22,784 --> 00:04:24,002 Okay. 93 00:04:24,133 --> 00:04:25,043 Do you know who he was talking to? 94 00:04:25,047 --> 00:04:26,353 Not a clue. 95 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,220 Afterwards, he didn't wanna talk about it. 96 00:04:28,224 --> 00:04:30,966 Well, if you think of anything else... 97 00:04:34,883 --> 00:04:36,881 -Calvino. -Yo. 98 00:04:36,885 --> 00:04:38,930 Video came in from Carson's building. 99 00:04:40,192 --> 00:04:43,191 All right, he punches in at 8:27. 100 00:04:43,195 --> 00:04:45,894 Seems he went straight home from the auction. 101 00:04:46,024 --> 00:04:47,195 Who came in after him? 102 00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:48,897 A few tenants used their access code 103 00:04:48,984 --> 00:04:50,768 and entered before 10:00 p.m. 104 00:04:50,942 --> 00:04:53,724 But at the bottom right of the panel is Carson's button, 105 00:04:53,728 --> 00:04:57,862 and you can see someone hit it at 9:22. 106 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:01,688 Spent some time shouting into the intercom. 107 00:05:01,692 --> 00:05:03,825 Then finally he slips in behind the delivery guy. 108 00:05:03,955 --> 00:05:05,305 We catch him on the way out? 109 00:05:05,392 --> 00:05:06,389 Yep. 110 00:05:06,393 --> 00:05:09,178 Six minutes later. 111 00:05:09,309 --> 00:05:10,871 You run that through facial rec? 112 00:05:10,875 --> 00:05:12,482 Nothing. 113 00:05:12,486 --> 00:05:16,272 All we have to go on is this. 114 00:05:16,403 --> 00:05:17,839 Oh, NYU. That's great. 115 00:05:17,926 --> 00:05:19,014 Narrows it down. 116 00:05:19,144 --> 00:05:20,537 Only half the city went there. 117 00:05:20,668 --> 00:05:21,926 Carson's work phone records just landed. 118 00:05:21,930 --> 00:05:23,540 Guess what? 119 00:05:23,671 --> 00:05:26,021 That call that kept him in his office before the auction? 120 00:05:26,195 --> 00:05:27,805 Came from the Manhattan DA's office. 121 00:05:34,334 --> 00:05:36,205 I got a credible complaint that day 122 00:05:36,336 --> 00:05:38,986 about a 6th century Buddha that was about to go up for auction. 123 00:05:38,990 --> 00:05:40,470 Complaint saying what? 124 00:05:40,557 --> 00:05:42,294 That the Buddha had been looted from Afghanistan 125 00:05:42,298 --> 00:05:45,341 25 years ago by the Taliban. 126 00:05:45,345 --> 00:05:47,738 How'd Carson take that? 127 00:05:47,825 --> 00:05:49,479 I'd say disturbingly nonchalant 128 00:05:49,566 --> 00:05:51,089 for someone that just stumbled into 129 00:05:51,263 --> 00:05:53,440 a thousand-year Afghani power battle. 130 00:05:53,570 --> 00:05:55,529 I chase these white-collar guys all day long. 131 00:05:55,659 --> 00:05:57,922 They are uniformly ill-equipped 132 00:05:58,053 --> 00:06:00,094 for the mess they get themselves into. 133 00:06:00,098 --> 00:06:01,622 A lot of this stuff is stolen? 134 00:06:01,752 --> 00:06:03,663 Stolen, forged, 135 00:06:03,667 --> 00:06:06,104 tax havens for power players 136 00:06:06,278 --> 00:06:08,324 you do not want on your contact list 137 00:06:08,498 --> 00:06:11,675 or money laundering vehicles for the organized crime. 138 00:06:11,762 --> 00:06:14,504 Frankly, I'm surprised more of these guys don't end up dead. 139 00:06:14,635 --> 00:06:16,546 Any idea who might have been pissed at Carson 140 00:06:16,550 --> 00:06:19,466 for orchestrating that particular auction last night? 141 00:06:19,553 --> 00:06:20,941 Complaint came in a day ago. 142 00:06:20,945 --> 00:06:22,860 A man named Abdul-Ahad Farhadi. 143 00:06:22,991 --> 00:06:24,831 I spoke to him on the phone. He was very angry. 144 00:06:24,906 --> 00:06:27,557 Said anyone selling this statue 145 00:06:27,561 --> 00:06:30,390 was conspiring with the Taliban and should be held accountable. 146 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,779 Farhadi? He got a record? 147 00:06:32,783 --> 00:06:35,695 All I know is the guy's an art conservator 148 00:06:35,699 --> 00:06:38,180 and a professor. 149 00:06:38,354 --> 00:06:40,269 Let me guess, NYU. 150 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:43,747 We know you called in to Andy Carson's office 151 00:06:43,751 --> 00:06:45,096 in the days before his murder. 152 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:46,667 Murder? 153 00:06:46,797 --> 00:06:48,495 And we know he was blowing off your calls. 154 00:06:48,582 --> 00:06:50,497 So you paid him a visit at his home last night. 155 00:06:50,671 --> 00:06:52,103 I did not... 156 00:06:52,107 --> 00:06:55,153 See? That's you at his building. 157 00:06:55,284 --> 00:06:57,325 Killing a man over a Buddha statue? 158 00:06:57,329 --> 00:06:59,458 -You seeing the irony? -I did not kill him. 159 00:06:59,462 --> 00:07:01,242 I just needed to speak with him. 160 00:07:01,246 --> 00:07:03,767 That's a whole lot of urgency over, what, old art? 161 00:07:03,771 --> 00:07:05,464 You don't understand. 162 00:07:05,468 --> 00:07:08,689 The Buddha was stolen from the Mes Aynak archaeological site. 163 00:07:08,776 --> 00:07:11,648 I was the conservator there before the Taliban invasion. 164 00:07:11,779 --> 00:07:12,906 You make it sound like you think 165 00:07:12,910 --> 00:07:14,172 you had a right to kill him. 166 00:07:14,303 --> 00:07:15,605 I had every right to confront him. 167 00:07:15,609 --> 00:07:17,480 In his home, 9:30 at night? 168 00:07:17,567 --> 00:07:18,999 Come on, man. 169 00:07:19,003 --> 00:07:20,566 I only heard it was up for sale a few days ago. 170 00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:22,224 I tried the proper channels. 171 00:07:22,354 --> 00:07:24,570 No one was responding. 172 00:07:24,574 --> 00:07:26,267 Then I watched the auction on live stream, 173 00:07:26,271 --> 00:07:27,838 and I got very agitated. 174 00:07:28,012 --> 00:07:29,445 So you tracked down Carson's address, 175 00:07:29,449 --> 00:07:31,185 you slipped into his building, and you got revenge. 176 00:07:31,189 --> 00:07:32,578 No. 177 00:07:32,582 --> 00:07:34,406 He wasn't responding to me on the intercom, 178 00:07:34,410 --> 00:07:36,194 and I needed to get the name of the seller... 179 00:07:36,368 --> 00:07:38,545 the thief who put it up for auction, 180 00:07:38,632 --> 00:07:40,634 so I could initiate a claim with Interpol. 181 00:07:40,721 --> 00:07:42,679 When I got inside, Carson wasn't home. 182 00:07:42,766 --> 00:07:45,465 I knocked and knocked, so I finally left. 183 00:07:48,903 --> 00:07:51,209 Look, I am not a murderer. 184 00:07:51,296 --> 00:07:53,560 My country has been pilfered. 185 00:08:02,525 --> 00:08:04,436 He's got no alibi to speak of, 186 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,442 but plenty of means, motive, and opportunity. 187 00:08:06,573 --> 00:08:08,745 Yeah, yeah, but honestly, do you see Carson 188 00:08:08,749 --> 00:08:10,349 opening up his door at that time of night 189 00:08:10,446 --> 00:08:12,488 for some art conservator? 190 00:08:12,492 --> 00:08:15,403 Um, what time did your guy Farhadi get to Carson's? 191 00:08:15,407 --> 00:08:18,149 Entered at 9:22, exited 9:31. 192 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,148 Well, we just got the data from the vic's smartwatch. 193 00:08:21,152 --> 00:08:25,326 Heart rate spiked at 9:06, and by 9:14, no heartbeat. 194 00:08:25,330 --> 00:08:26,850 Farhadi hadn't even got to the victim's building 195 00:08:26,854 --> 00:08:28,678 -by that time. -Yeah. Let him go. 196 00:08:28,682 --> 00:08:31,467 Also, I just had a listen to Carson's last voice mails. 197 00:08:31,598 --> 00:08:32,816 Big Switty called him. 198 00:08:32,903 --> 00:08:34,644 -Big Switty? The rapper? -Mm-hmm. 199 00:08:34,731 --> 00:08:36,385 Called him an hour before the murder. 200 00:08:36,472 --> 00:08:37,991 Listen to this. 201 00:08:37,995 --> 00:08:39,867 Hey, Carson, you wanna make this thing ugly? 202 00:08:39,997 --> 00:08:41,564 I'll break your face ugly. 203 00:08:46,961 --> 00:08:47,962 Carson's dead? 204 00:08:48,049 --> 00:08:49,398 For real? 205 00:08:49,529 --> 00:08:51,792 Serves his dumb ass right. 206 00:08:51,879 --> 00:08:53,663 You sound broken up. 207 00:08:53,837 --> 00:08:55,491 How do you know him? 208 00:08:55,622 --> 00:08:57,358 Through the art scene. 209 00:08:57,362 --> 00:09:00,061 My wife and I like African art. 210 00:09:00,148 --> 00:09:02,102 Andy was our broker. 211 00:09:02,106 --> 00:09:04,326 Liked him, too, until I found out 212 00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:07,372 this Egyptian mask that I bought for 300 grand 213 00:09:07,459 --> 00:09:08,761 was a fake. 214 00:09:08,765 --> 00:09:11,285 -You blame Andy? -Damn straight. 215 00:09:11,289 --> 00:09:12,809 Told him I wanted my money back. 216 00:09:12,813 --> 00:09:14,898 -May I? -Please. 217 00:09:14,902 --> 00:09:16,943 -He pony up? -No. 218 00:09:16,947 --> 00:09:19,250 -You get pissed? -Hell, yeah. 219 00:09:19,254 --> 00:09:21,691 But my wife had a soft spot for the guy. 220 00:09:21,822 --> 00:09:24,172 Told me we should resolve this like adults. 221 00:09:24,259 --> 00:09:26,039 So we invited him and his girlfriend 222 00:09:26,043 --> 00:09:27,610 over for dinner a month ago. 223 00:09:27,741 --> 00:09:30,221 Then I let him know I wanted my money. 224 00:09:30,352 --> 00:09:31,871 Gave him 30 days. 225 00:09:31,875 --> 00:09:32,920 Let me guess. 226 00:09:33,050 --> 00:09:34,356 He didn't pay. 227 00:09:34,443 --> 00:09:36,184 Deadline was yesterday. 228 00:09:36,271 --> 00:09:37,533 That's why I left that message. 229 00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:38,748 Let me ask you this question. 230 00:09:38,752 --> 00:09:40,754 Where were you last night at 9:30? 231 00:09:40,841 --> 00:09:43,626 At dinner with my manager and my lawyer. 232 00:09:43,713 --> 00:09:45,976 This girlfriend of his, got a name? 233 00:09:46,063 --> 00:09:47,978 Lucy. 234 00:09:48,109 --> 00:09:49,933 Butler. 235 00:09:49,937 --> 00:09:52,635 They weren't getting along so good, that's for sure. 236 00:09:52,766 --> 00:09:54,028 What makes you say that? 237 00:09:54,158 --> 00:09:55,595 She just kept rolling her eyes 238 00:09:55,682 --> 00:09:59,163 at everything he said, like she knew he was full of it. 239 00:09:59,250 --> 00:10:01,122 Okay. 240 00:10:01,252 --> 00:10:02,427 Thank you for your time. 241 00:10:02,558 --> 00:10:05,383 No worries. 242 00:10:05,387 --> 00:10:07,563 Hey, the hair we found at the crime scene 243 00:10:07,650 --> 00:10:09,086 belonged to a woman. 244 00:10:09,173 --> 00:10:11,393 Let's go see how bad things were with Lucy Butler. 245 00:10:14,309 --> 00:10:15,832 I heard this morning. 246 00:10:15,919 --> 00:10:17,660 I still can't believe he's dead. 247 00:10:17,791 --> 00:10:20,358 When was the last time you saw him? 248 00:10:20,445 --> 00:10:22,443 Maybe three, four weeks ago. 249 00:10:22,447 --> 00:10:24,097 Things didn't work out? 250 00:10:24,101 --> 00:10:26,669 No. 251 00:10:26,756 --> 00:10:28,715 I mean, I tried, but... 252 00:10:28,889 --> 00:10:32,109 look, I knew Andy had a reputation for dating 253 00:10:32,196 --> 00:10:35,156 a lot of women, but he swore to me he was a changed man, 254 00:10:35,243 --> 00:10:36,940 and he wanted to settle down, all that. 255 00:10:37,027 --> 00:10:39,508 So he cheated on you? 256 00:10:39,595 --> 00:10:41,553 With his ex-wife. 257 00:10:41,728 --> 00:10:42,903 Seriously. 258 00:10:42,990 --> 00:10:44,382 We heard they didn't speak. 259 00:10:44,469 --> 00:10:46,080 Oh, yeah, he told me that too. 260 00:10:46,210 --> 00:10:48,082 Said he hated her. 261 00:10:48,169 --> 00:10:50,650 Then one day, he tells me he's going to the gym, 262 00:10:50,737 --> 00:10:52,297 but he's actually meeting up with his ex 263 00:10:52,347 --> 00:10:54,479 -at some swank hotel. -Ooh. 264 00:10:54,566 --> 00:10:57,261 How'd that make you feel? 265 00:10:57,265 --> 00:10:58,962 Like an idiot. 266 00:10:59,136 --> 00:11:01,399 Yeah. Yeah. I bet. 267 00:11:01,486 --> 00:11:02,923 You were pretty upset? 268 00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:04,838 Yeah, I was. 269 00:11:07,667 --> 00:11:09,490 I didn't kill him, for God's sake. 270 00:11:09,494 --> 00:11:10,800 I just broke up with him. 271 00:11:10,931 --> 00:11:12,802 Because he was cheating with his ex-wife? 272 00:11:12,933 --> 00:11:14,717 Yes. 273 00:11:14,804 --> 00:11:16,719 He denied it, of course. 274 00:11:16,806 --> 00:11:19,326 Claimed that they were just discussing some 275 00:11:19,330 --> 00:11:21,981 kind of stressful legal matter. 276 00:11:21,985 --> 00:11:24,161 So where were you last night? 277 00:11:24,248 --> 00:11:25,902 On a date. 278 00:11:25,989 --> 00:11:27,208 Can we get his name? 279 00:11:29,819 --> 00:11:32,256 Lucy Butler's date confirmed, they met at 7:30 280 00:11:32,387 --> 00:11:34,519 and parted ways at 10:00 p.m. 281 00:11:34,606 --> 00:11:37,305 Any word on whether the ex-wife was back in the picture? 282 00:11:37,392 --> 00:11:39,133 He had almost no communication with her. 283 00:11:39,263 --> 00:11:42,092 But from the divorce filings, I can see why. 284 00:11:42,179 --> 00:11:44,579 Carson tried to squeeze her out of as much money as possible. 285 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:46,310 She's rich? 286 00:11:46,314 --> 00:11:49,752 Oh, she's rich, like family started an actual bank rich. 287 00:11:49,883 --> 00:11:52,407 You know, luckily for her, his rampant infidelity 288 00:11:52,494 --> 00:11:53,974 was frowned upon by the court. 289 00:11:54,104 --> 00:11:56,407 So I'm thinking reconciliation 290 00:11:56,411 --> 00:11:57,934 was off the table for her? 291 00:11:58,065 --> 00:12:01,586 Well, after that lunch, she sent him a single text 292 00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:04,462 about a week before the murder. 293 00:12:04,549 --> 00:12:07,331 "Are you ever going to respond?" 294 00:12:07,335 --> 00:12:10,599 -And let me guess, he did not. -Nada. 295 00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:12,292 Okay, maybe there was some pressing legal matter 296 00:12:12,296 --> 00:12:13,511 they had to discuss, 297 00:12:13,515 --> 00:12:15,647 and he blew her off, and she got pissed. 298 00:12:15,735 --> 00:12:17,645 Well, she's coming back from the Hamptons tomorrow morning, 299 00:12:17,649 --> 00:12:18,908 and she was gracious enough to give us 300 00:12:18,912 --> 00:12:20,130 a place where we can meet her. 301 00:12:20,261 --> 00:12:21,262 Nice. 302 00:12:24,874 --> 00:12:26,785 Yeah, please. 303 00:12:26,789 --> 00:12:29,836 There was nothing secretive or salacious about our meeting. 304 00:12:30,010 --> 00:12:34,314 We had lunch about a month ago, at my request. 305 00:12:34,318 --> 00:12:38,366 I wanted to let Andy know about my upcoming memoir. 306 00:12:38,453 --> 00:12:39,972 Memoir? 307 00:12:39,976 --> 00:12:41,017 "Jilted." 308 00:12:41,021 --> 00:12:42,322 It's about our marriage. 309 00:12:42,326 --> 00:12:44,241 Did that create a legal dispute? 310 00:12:44,372 --> 00:12:45,329 Some tension? 311 00:12:45,416 --> 00:12:47,027 Well, it could have. 312 00:12:47,157 --> 00:12:51,074 And I was expecting pushback, but I was honest with Andy. 313 00:12:51,161 --> 00:12:53,856 I told him I wrote about how he spent my money, 314 00:12:53,860 --> 00:12:55,379 how he cheated on me... 315 00:12:55,383 --> 00:12:57,167 cheated during my battle with breast cancer 316 00:12:57,341 --> 00:12:59,426 while I was undergoing chemotherapy. 317 00:12:59,430 --> 00:13:02,085 Sounds like you're not sending flowers to his wake. 318 00:13:02,172 --> 00:13:04,388 No. I will not. 319 00:13:04,392 --> 00:13:06,694 So you really had an ax to grind, huh? 320 00:13:06,698 --> 00:13:08,435 Yes, I did at first. 321 00:13:08,439 --> 00:13:10,572 I thought I was gonna spend my life with that man 322 00:13:10,746 --> 00:13:12,309 and start a family, 323 00:13:12,313 --> 00:13:14,358 and then suddenly my future was shattered. 324 00:13:14,445 --> 00:13:17,666 And then I saw that it was all actually 325 00:13:17,797 --> 00:13:19,450 part of God's plan for me. 326 00:13:21,191 --> 00:13:23,363 Why didn't you just call him and give him a heads up? 327 00:13:23,367 --> 00:13:25,413 You could have had a lawyer send over a copy. 328 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,502 Have you ever been unceremoniously dumped, 329 00:13:27,589 --> 00:13:28,891 Detective, and dragged through the mud 330 00:13:28,895 --> 00:13:30,810 and humiliated in divorce court? 331 00:13:32,507 --> 00:13:34,988 In fact, yes, I have, just a few months ago. 332 00:13:35,075 --> 00:13:38,556 The last time Andy saw me, I was a weak, begging wreck. 333 00:13:38,643 --> 00:13:40,776 And I invited Andy to lunch because I wanted him 334 00:13:40,863 --> 00:13:44,214 to see me like this. 335 00:13:44,388 --> 00:13:46,695 And how did you two leave things? 336 00:13:46,782 --> 00:13:48,218 At the lunch, I told him that 337 00:13:48,305 --> 00:13:49,872 I had left our divorce a happier person 338 00:13:50,003 --> 00:13:52,309 and that I forgave him, 339 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,181 thanks to God. 340 00:13:56,618 --> 00:13:58,794 Okay. Where were you two nights ago? 341 00:13:58,925 --> 00:14:02,842 Um, I was at my house in the Hamptons watching TV. 342 00:14:04,365 --> 00:14:06,019 Thank you for your time. 343 00:14:06,106 --> 00:14:08,151 If you think of anything else, 344 00:14:08,282 --> 00:14:09,370 let us know? 345 00:14:09,457 --> 00:14:11,633 Of course. Oh, thank you. 346 00:14:14,636 --> 00:14:17,026 Sorry to hear about the breakup, man. 347 00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:19,206 No, no, no, it's all good. I was just playing. 348 00:14:22,644 --> 00:14:25,081 The ex-wife's Hamptons story checks out. 349 00:14:25,168 --> 00:14:26,648 Her phone pinged from her residence 350 00:14:26,735 --> 00:14:28,167 the night in question, and I ran her plate. 351 00:14:28,171 --> 00:14:29,516 So she hasn't driven back to the city 352 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,691 since she had lunch with Carson. 353 00:14:30,695 --> 00:14:32,306 That was a month ago. 354 00:14:32,393 --> 00:14:34,830 But we know from the DNA that it was a woman, 355 00:14:34,917 --> 00:14:36,963 so the only lead we have on that front right now 356 00:14:37,137 --> 00:14:38,961 is the ex-girlfriend, whose story seems to be 357 00:14:38,965 --> 00:14:40,227 checking out, correct? 358 00:14:40,357 --> 00:14:41,528 I got that video of the ex-girlfriend you wanted. 359 00:14:41,532 --> 00:14:42,838 Yeah? 360 00:14:43,012 --> 00:14:44,618 So it starts with her leaving the restaurant 361 00:14:44,622 --> 00:14:46,668 and parting ways with her date at 8:53. 362 00:14:46,755 --> 00:14:49,410 Then she started to walk in Carson's direction. 363 00:14:49,497 --> 00:14:51,321 And two blocks later, she peels west. 364 00:14:51,325 --> 00:14:53,544 Any chance she doubled back anyplace? 365 00:14:53,631 --> 00:14:55,807 I thought the same thing, so I started pulling video 366 00:14:55,938 --> 00:14:58,549 between there and Carson's apartment. 367 00:14:58,636 --> 00:15:01,117 No sign of the ex-girlfriend, but take a look at this. 368 00:15:03,076 --> 00:15:05,034 This is two blocks from Carson's crib. 369 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,776 Ooh, I'm sorry. I'm really nervous. 370 00:15:11,780 --> 00:15:13,608 This is my first press. 371 00:15:13,695 --> 00:15:15,088 Relax. You'll do great. 372 00:15:15,175 --> 00:15:16,524 And the book was wonderful. 373 00:15:16,654 --> 00:15:18,391 I really loved it. 374 00:15:18,395 --> 00:15:21,481 Okay, get ready and just watch for the green light. 375 00:15:21,485 --> 00:15:24,184 Five, four, three... 376 00:15:24,271 --> 00:15:25,663 NYPD. 377 00:15:25,794 --> 00:15:27,143 Excuse me, we're about to record. 378 00:15:27,230 --> 00:15:28,401 Caroline Sanders, you're under arrest for the murder 379 00:15:28,405 --> 00:15:29,841 of Andrew Carson. 380 00:15:29,929 --> 00:15:30,926 Can I get you to turn around 381 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:32,670 and put your hands behind your back? 382 00:15:32,757 --> 00:15:35,539 Real easy. Thank you. 383 00:15:35,543 --> 00:15:37,675 Hey, don't worry, 384 00:15:37,762 --> 00:15:39,122 it's gonna make a hell of a sequel. 385 00:15:43,464 --> 00:15:45,592 The evidence against Caroline Sanders 386 00:15:45,596 --> 00:15:47,511 is seemingly rock solid. 387 00:15:47,642 --> 00:15:49,035 Yeah. 388 00:15:49,122 --> 00:15:51,211 Looks like police found clear video of her 389 00:15:51,341 --> 00:15:53,604 near the crime scene that night and video of her 390 00:15:53,691 --> 00:15:55,602 at his building eight minutes before he was killed, 391 00:15:55,606 --> 00:15:57,434 hiding her face with a scarf, 392 00:15:57,565 --> 00:16:00,002 using a passcode to punch in. 393 00:16:00,089 --> 00:16:01,961 Seems like she knew the entry code 394 00:16:02,091 --> 00:16:04,291 from when they shared the apartment during the marriage. 395 00:16:04,311 --> 00:16:06,052 The warrant for her DNA gave us a sample 396 00:16:06,139 --> 00:16:07,658 that proves she's a match for the hair found 397 00:16:07,662 --> 00:16:08,706 -on the victim. -Yeah. 398 00:16:08,793 --> 00:16:10,665 But what's the motive? 399 00:16:10,795 --> 00:16:13,320 The divorce was a legal bloodbath, 400 00:16:13,450 --> 00:16:14,799 but that was two years ago. 401 00:16:14,886 --> 00:16:16,972 And Caroline made off well. 402 00:16:16,976 --> 00:16:19,108 Her life was on the total upswing. 403 00:16:19,195 --> 00:16:21,241 Why kill him now? 404 00:16:21,328 --> 00:16:25,158 Let's start with any and all phone calls, emails, 405 00:16:25,288 --> 00:16:27,682 texts after this mystery lunch. 406 00:16:30,815 --> 00:16:32,556 We received your subpoena. 407 00:16:32,643 --> 00:16:34,863 -Take a seat. -Thanks. 408 00:16:36,473 --> 00:16:39,911 So Andy Carson called these offices 409 00:16:39,999 --> 00:16:42,218 five times on July 24th. 410 00:16:42,305 --> 00:16:43,698 Can you tell me why? 411 00:16:43,785 --> 00:16:45,174 He called incessantly, 412 00:16:45,178 --> 00:16:47,702 and they ended up having to page me. 413 00:16:47,789 --> 00:16:49,399 He was in quite a state. 414 00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:52,228 So Andy and Caroline were patients. 415 00:16:52,315 --> 00:16:53,921 Yes. 416 00:16:53,925 --> 00:16:55,485 When Caroline was diagnosed with cancer, 417 00:16:55,536 --> 00:16:58,143 IVF became their only option. 418 00:16:58,147 --> 00:17:01,364 Because of the chemo, her eggs were no longer viable, 419 00:17:01,368 --> 00:17:03,718 and so they made sure they had embryos 420 00:17:03,848 --> 00:17:05,589 frozen for after her recovery. 421 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:08,810 So Andy called about the embryos? 422 00:17:08,897 --> 00:17:11,243 He called to ask about their signed paperwork... 423 00:17:11,247 --> 00:17:13,728 who had rights to their embryos. 424 00:17:13,815 --> 00:17:17,079 I assured him two-party consent was required for implantation. 425 00:17:17,166 --> 00:17:19,212 That seemed to calm him. 426 00:17:19,299 --> 00:17:20,774 Can I see that paperwork? 427 00:17:20,778 --> 00:17:23,520 I can send you a digital copy. 428 00:17:23,651 --> 00:17:25,866 The originals were transferred to our Pennsylvania storage 429 00:17:25,870 --> 00:17:28,438 facility with the embryos. 430 00:17:28,569 --> 00:17:29,787 Why were they moved? 431 00:17:29,918 --> 00:17:31,655 Because of the chemo, 432 00:17:31,659 --> 00:17:34,662 they knew they'd need long-term storage. 433 00:17:34,792 --> 00:17:37,491 Caroline was anxious about blackouts in the city, 434 00:17:37,578 --> 00:17:39,623 events that could compromise the power supply, 435 00:17:39,710 --> 00:17:41,582 put the embryos at risk. 436 00:17:41,669 --> 00:17:44,672 She knew this would be her last shot at biological motherhood. 437 00:17:47,457 --> 00:17:48,589 Okay, thank you. 438 00:17:48,676 --> 00:17:49,677 Of course. 439 00:17:49,807 --> 00:17:51,631 Um, one last thing. 440 00:17:51,635 --> 00:17:54,508 Did Caroline ever reach out about the embryos 441 00:17:54,595 --> 00:17:56,336 after they were frozen? 442 00:17:57,554 --> 00:18:00,775 She came to see me the same afternoon Andy called. 443 00:18:05,432 --> 00:18:07,434 Caroline Sanders wanted to move forward, 444 00:18:07,564 --> 00:18:09,175 implant the embryos they had frozen. 445 00:18:09,305 --> 00:18:10,998 Andy Carson didn't. 446 00:18:11,002 --> 00:18:12,435 Yeah, and they'd signed paperwork that said 447 00:18:12,439 --> 00:18:14,872 they both had to consent, so she felt stuck. 448 00:18:14,876 --> 00:18:17,096 And the courts generally side in favor of the spouse 449 00:18:17,226 --> 00:18:19,141 -who doesn't wanna be a parent. -Right. 450 00:18:19,272 --> 00:18:21,230 So she knew she'd lose before a judge. 451 00:18:21,317 --> 00:18:22,401 And I wouldn't worry about her 452 00:18:22,405 --> 00:18:24,277 getting sympathy from a jury. 453 00:18:24,407 --> 00:18:26,231 This is a state where we don't believe in compelling people 454 00:18:26,235 --> 00:18:27,932 into parenthood. 455 00:18:28,063 --> 00:18:30,283 Well, unless the embryos are made the old-fashioned way. 456 00:18:30,413 --> 00:18:33,543 But Caroline lost her say because she needed IVF. 457 00:18:33,547 --> 00:18:35,636 And you may find a couple jurors sympathetic 458 00:18:35,766 --> 00:18:37,507 to that legal contradiction. 459 00:18:37,638 --> 00:18:40,815 Contradiction or not, we can show that she killed her ex 460 00:18:40,945 --> 00:18:42,556 to prevent him from saying no. 461 00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:51,256 Evidence clearly linking Caroline Sanders to this crime. 462 00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:53,784 Her hair was found on the victim's clothing. 463 00:18:53,915 --> 00:18:56,613 Video shows her entering his building 464 00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:58,093 eight minutes before the murder, 465 00:18:58,180 --> 00:19:00,178 attempting to disguise herself. 466 00:19:00,182 --> 00:19:02,315 In addition, she went to great efforts 467 00:19:02,445 --> 00:19:04,360 that night to cover her tracks. 468 00:19:04,447 --> 00:19:06,014 She took the train into the city 469 00:19:06,145 --> 00:19:08,277 to avoid her license plate showing her movements. 470 00:19:08,364 --> 00:19:12,103 She even left her cell phone at home to avoid being traced 471 00:19:12,107 --> 00:19:13,674 to the vicinity of the crime. 472 00:19:13,761 --> 00:19:17,239 This murder was calculated 473 00:19:17,243 --> 00:19:18,457 and vicious. 474 00:19:18,461 --> 00:19:20,594 And why did she kill him? 475 00:19:20,681 --> 00:19:23,945 Because the only way for her to gain control of the embryos 476 00:19:24,032 --> 00:19:27,166 they created together was to eliminate him 477 00:19:27,253 --> 00:19:29,168 from the equation entirely. 478 00:19:33,346 --> 00:19:35,652 Your Honor, 479 00:19:35,783 --> 00:19:37,654 members of the jury. 480 00:19:38,786 --> 00:19:42,529 We don't contest the evidence or the facts of this murder. 481 00:19:42,659 --> 00:19:45,354 Mr. Price is absolutely right. 482 00:19:45,358 --> 00:19:49,710 My client, Caroline Sanders killed her ex-husband, 483 00:19:49,797 --> 00:19:52,796 but only because Andy Carson 484 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,237 was going to destroy those unborn lives, 485 00:19:55,324 --> 00:19:57,544 her unborn children. 486 00:19:58,849 --> 00:20:00,938 She was entirely justified. 487 00:20:01,069 --> 00:20:05,204 In fact, Caroline Sanders had no choice. 488 00:20:05,291 --> 00:20:08,468 This was defense of others. 489 00:20:08,555 --> 00:20:11,771 Your Honor, may we approach? 490 00:20:11,775 --> 00:20:16,171 Members of the jury, this is a good time for a short recess. 491 00:20:16,258 --> 00:20:18,694 Counselors, I'll see you in my chambers, now. 492 00:20:21,045 --> 00:20:22,699 For this murder to be justified 493 00:20:22,786 --> 00:20:25,354 as a defense of others, she had to be defending other people. 494 00:20:25,485 --> 00:20:27,661 New York State is crystal clear on this matter. 495 00:20:27,748 --> 00:20:29,402 Embryos are not people. 496 00:20:29,532 --> 00:20:30,968 There were no others to defend. 497 00:20:31,099 --> 00:20:34,233 And even if, by some wild stretch, 498 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,709 they had been deemed lives in this state, 499 00:20:36,713 --> 00:20:38,759 there was no imminent threat. 500 00:20:38,846 --> 00:20:41,588 The law requires my client reasonably believed 501 00:20:41,675 --> 00:20:43,894 these were her children as of conception. 502 00:20:44,025 --> 00:20:45,762 Not only did she believe it 503 00:20:45,766 --> 00:20:47,376 as a long-time practicing Catholic, 504 00:20:47,507 --> 00:20:49,726 but her belief is objectively reasonable 505 00:20:49,813 --> 00:20:51,989 as it's a belief shared by 1.4 billion 506 00:20:52,076 --> 00:20:53,295 Catholics on this planet. 507 00:20:53,426 --> 00:20:55,036 Your Honor, allowing this defense 508 00:20:55,123 --> 00:20:57,212 would not only contradict New York case law, 509 00:20:57,343 --> 00:20:59,345 but it would be setting a dangerous precedent 510 00:20:59,432 --> 00:21:01,912 that could be used to impede abortion rights 511 00:21:01,999 --> 00:21:03,871 and compromise IVF access. 512 00:21:03,958 --> 00:21:06,177 By their own logic, this would allow a man 513 00:21:06,308 --> 00:21:08,092 to use force legally against a woman 514 00:21:08,179 --> 00:21:09,572 trying to get an abortion. 515 00:21:09,659 --> 00:21:12,314 These issues can and should be entirely separated. 516 00:21:12,401 --> 00:21:15,270 You can't forbid my client a proper defense 517 00:21:15,274 --> 00:21:17,885 because someone else has personal or political concerns 518 00:21:17,972 --> 00:21:19,491 about its implications. 519 00:21:19,495 --> 00:21:22,368 Like it or not, Alabama has granted embryos 520 00:21:22,455 --> 00:21:26,241 legal person hood, and 38 states have fetal homicide laws. 521 00:21:26,328 --> 00:21:27,982 Not New York. 522 00:21:28,112 --> 00:21:30,158 No, but Pennsylvania, where my client's embryos 523 00:21:30,245 --> 00:21:32,726 were stored at the time this crime occurred, does. 524 00:21:32,813 --> 00:21:35,642 In that state, killing a fetus at any stage 525 00:21:35,772 --> 00:21:39,080 of gestation in a non-abortion act can be deemed homicide. 526 00:21:39,210 --> 00:21:40,686 Your Honor, the crime occurred in New York. 527 00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:43,389 This is a totally irrelevant citation 528 00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:44,825 of out-of-state statutes. 529 00:21:46,783 --> 00:21:48,263 But the legal status of a person 530 00:21:48,350 --> 00:21:52,528 does depend entirely on where said person is. 531 00:21:52,659 --> 00:21:54,657 I'm gonna have to play Solomon here. 532 00:21:54,661 --> 00:21:57,577 New York law governs the crime, but Pennsylvania law 533 00:21:57,664 --> 00:22:00,097 necessitates that I allow her justification defense. 534 00:22:00,101 --> 00:22:01,537 Your Honor... 535 00:22:01,668 --> 00:22:03,583 It's up to the prosecution to disprove it. 536 00:22:10,285 --> 00:22:13,114 And why did the defendant initially come under your care? 537 00:22:13,201 --> 00:22:15,290 Caroline was diagnosed with breast cancer. 538 00:22:15,421 --> 00:22:17,684 And Andy and Caroline were eager to make sure 539 00:22:17,814 --> 00:22:20,339 they could have children after her chemotherapy was over. 540 00:22:20,426 --> 00:22:23,342 Prior to embarking on the medical steps 541 00:22:23,472 --> 00:22:25,557 for this fertility plan, did the defendant and her husband 542 00:22:25,561 --> 00:22:28,778 sign any paperwork pertaining to who had 543 00:22:28,782 --> 00:22:31,262 decision-making rights over the embryos, once created? 544 00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:32,829 Yes. 545 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,484 They signed our standard forms that indicate the embryos 546 00:22:35,571 --> 00:22:37,656 are, in effect, shared property, 547 00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:40,616 that no implantation is allowed without dual consent. 548 00:22:40,620 --> 00:22:43,492 Did you ever discuss with the defendant 549 00:22:43,579 --> 00:22:46,365 the prospect of destroying the embryos? 550 00:22:46,452 --> 00:22:47,844 Yes. 551 00:22:47,931 --> 00:22:49,846 Couples don't always want unused embryos 552 00:22:49,977 --> 00:22:51,714 stored in perpetuity, 553 00:22:51,718 --> 00:22:54,020 so we advise them they have the option to destroy 554 00:22:54,024 --> 00:22:55,504 the embryos at any time. 555 00:22:55,635 --> 00:22:57,755 Did the defendant exhibit any distress at the prospect 556 00:22:57,811 --> 00:22:59,461 of destroying the embryos? 557 00:22:59,465 --> 00:23:01,075 Not that I recall. 558 00:23:01,205 --> 00:23:02,942 Well, did she say that's out of the question? 559 00:23:02,946 --> 00:23:04,426 She did not. 560 00:23:04,557 --> 00:23:06,602 Did she say, "That would be murder"? 561 00:23:06,689 --> 00:23:08,038 No. 562 00:23:08,125 --> 00:23:11,302 Did she say anything or ask anything 563 00:23:11,433 --> 00:23:14,349 that indicated that she considered the embryos 564 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,134 to be actual lives? 565 00:23:17,221 --> 00:23:18,349 No. 566 00:23:18,353 --> 00:23:19,528 Thank you. Nothing further. 567 00:23:21,269 --> 00:23:23,358 Dr. Stanton, you said that she didn't appear 568 00:23:23,489 --> 00:23:25,922 to think of the embryos as actual lives. 569 00:23:25,926 --> 00:23:27,402 Correct. 570 00:23:27,406 --> 00:23:30,017 As a matter of scientific fact, is a sperm a cell? 571 00:23:30,104 --> 00:23:32,498 -Yes. -A woman's egg a cell? 572 00:23:32,585 --> 00:23:33,890 Yes. 573 00:23:33,977 --> 00:23:35,718 Is either one of those a living organism? 574 00:23:35,805 --> 00:23:38,286 No. 575 00:23:38,373 --> 00:23:41,681 Now, how about when the sperm and egg meet to form a zygote? 576 00:23:41,811 --> 00:23:43,987 Is that biologically different? 577 00:23:45,728 --> 00:23:46,899 Yes. 578 00:23:46,903 --> 00:23:49,210 In fact, the zygote created 579 00:23:49,297 --> 00:23:52,343 is a living single-celled organism, correct, 580 00:23:52,431 --> 00:23:54,733 with its own unique human DNA? 581 00:23:54,737 --> 00:23:56,039 Your Honor, relevance. 582 00:23:56,043 --> 00:23:58,258 Mr. Price focuses direct on the matter 583 00:23:58,262 --> 00:24:00,308 of these embryos being lives. 584 00:24:00,395 --> 00:24:02,919 These questions are needed to clarify the matter for the jury 585 00:24:03,006 --> 00:24:05,008 so they can ascertain the reasonableness 586 00:24:05,095 --> 00:24:07,572 of my client's defense. 587 00:24:07,576 --> 00:24:08,751 I'll allow it. 588 00:24:11,101 --> 00:24:15,018 Saying life begins at conception 589 00:24:15,149 --> 00:24:18,544 isn't at all scientifically inaccurate, is it? 590 00:24:18,631 --> 00:24:22,330 In fact, it's biologically quite reasonable. 591 00:24:22,461 --> 00:24:24,894 Well, it's a semantic way of say... 592 00:24:24,898 --> 00:24:27,418 Of stating fact. 593 00:24:27,422 --> 00:24:28,467 Nothing further. 594 00:24:31,121 --> 00:24:33,036 -Your Honor, redirect. -Go ahead. 595 00:24:33,123 --> 00:24:34,429 Doctor, 596 00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:38,825 is an amoeba a single-celled living organism? 597 00:24:38,955 --> 00:24:42,481 -Yes. -What about E. coli or algae? 598 00:24:42,568 --> 00:24:43,830 Yes and yes. 599 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,832 The yeast we use in bread? 600 00:24:45,962 --> 00:24:48,047 All single-celled living organisms. 601 00:24:48,051 --> 00:24:49,313 Thank you. 602 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,838 Your Honor, the people rest. 603 00:24:57,974 --> 00:24:59,715 So how'd our doctor do? 604 00:25:01,282 --> 00:25:04,067 Lots of talk about zygotes and amoebas. 605 00:25:04,198 --> 00:25:05,852 We just have to keep hammering them 606 00:25:05,939 --> 00:25:08,372 with the science, and then 607 00:25:08,376 --> 00:25:09,769 no matter what the defense puts on, 608 00:25:09,856 --> 00:25:12,898 I'm confident the jury will see through the attempt 609 00:25:12,902 --> 00:25:17,211 to use faux religion to stampede over the law. 610 00:25:17,298 --> 00:25:20,301 Yeah, but Catholic or not, 611 00:25:20,431 --> 00:25:22,564 lots of hopeful moms 612 00:25:22,651 --> 00:25:26,612 do see their frozen cells as more than just cells. 613 00:25:26,742 --> 00:25:29,524 And I can think of at least three female jurors 614 00:25:29,528 --> 00:25:32,618 who might be swayed by Caroline Sanders' situation. 615 00:25:32,705 --> 00:25:35,534 Most women her age do have something on ice. 616 00:25:38,145 --> 00:25:40,234 Do you? Have something on ice? 617 00:25:42,366 --> 00:25:43,146 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, no, no. 618 00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:44,277 No, it's fine. 619 00:25:44,281 --> 00:25:45,322 You don't have to answer that. 620 00:25:45,326 --> 00:25:46,628 It's okay. 621 00:25:46,632 --> 00:25:48,673 Look, Nolan, 622 00:25:48,677 --> 00:25:50,632 I love my job. 623 00:25:50,636 --> 00:25:54,944 But do you think I wanna come home every night 624 00:25:55,075 --> 00:25:56,598 to an empty apartment at 11:00 p.m. 625 00:25:56,729 --> 00:25:58,426 for the rest of my life? 626 00:25:58,557 --> 00:25:59,775 No. 627 00:25:59,906 --> 00:26:01,472 It's the ultimate insurance policy 628 00:26:01,603 --> 00:26:05,476 for your most important life dreams. 629 00:26:05,564 --> 00:26:08,131 It makes you feel like... 630 00:26:08,218 --> 00:26:11,130 like the option of a brand-new life of motherhood 631 00:26:11,134 --> 00:26:13,223 is always there. 632 00:26:13,354 --> 00:26:15,312 If someone destroyed that or threatened 633 00:26:15,443 --> 00:26:18,315 to destroy that chance, I'd be a total wreck. 634 00:26:18,446 --> 00:26:19,661 You wouldn't kill. 635 00:26:19,665 --> 00:26:21,928 No, wouldn't kill. 636 00:26:24,887 --> 00:26:29,196 I think the key here is showing that Caroline Sanders 637 00:26:29,326 --> 00:26:33,156 was selfishly defending her own hopes, her own future. 638 00:26:33,243 --> 00:26:36,246 I mean, she killed her ex-husband to protect the life 639 00:26:36,377 --> 00:26:37,983 that she wanted for herself. 640 00:26:37,987 --> 00:26:40,773 This had nothing to do with defending others. 641 00:26:47,823 --> 00:26:50,391 My breast cancer diagnosis was terrifying. 642 00:26:50,521 --> 00:26:53,307 But what was more terrifying was what that meant 643 00:26:53,437 --> 00:26:56,049 for my dream of becoming a mother. 644 00:26:56,136 --> 00:26:57,916 That had always been the plan. 645 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,180 We just put it off because you think you have forever. 646 00:27:01,184 --> 00:27:02,878 And you know, Andy and I thought that we would 647 00:27:02,882 --> 00:27:05,362 get to it when we were ready. 648 00:27:05,449 --> 00:27:08,100 But then suddenly we just... you have to make big decisions. 649 00:27:08,104 --> 00:27:11,586 And so we started IVF immediately to freeze embryos. 650 00:27:11,673 --> 00:27:14,633 But you and Andy divorced before you could 651 00:27:14,763 --> 00:27:16,547 complete your fertility plan. 652 00:27:16,635 --> 00:27:17,940 Yes. 653 00:27:18,027 --> 00:27:20,852 A year into my chemo treatment, 654 00:27:20,856 --> 00:27:22,771 we were driving home from dinner with friends, 655 00:27:22,858 --> 00:27:24,595 and Andy told me that he no longer 656 00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:26,557 wanted to be married to me. 657 00:27:26,688 --> 00:27:29,165 And at first, he didn't offer an explanation, 658 00:27:29,169 --> 00:27:30,427 but eventually, I found out he was 659 00:27:30,431 --> 00:27:32,172 having an affair, 660 00:27:32,259 --> 00:27:33,521 one of many. 661 00:27:34,827 --> 00:27:36,263 That must have been really tough. 662 00:27:36,393 --> 00:27:37,960 It was horrible. 663 00:27:38,047 --> 00:27:40,916 I was a wreck, from chemo and radiation. 664 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,923 I felt so ashamed. 665 00:27:44,010 --> 00:27:46,229 And that's why I ended up writing the book, you see. 666 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:48,928 I wanted to put that truth into words. 667 00:27:49,015 --> 00:27:51,670 And what happened when you finished the memoir? 668 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,673 Around the time that I sold the book to a publisher, 669 00:27:54,803 --> 00:27:57,672 I was declared cancer-free. 670 00:27:57,676 --> 00:27:59,939 And I felt God's protection at last. 671 00:28:00,069 --> 00:28:03,203 And so I thought, I'm ready to become a mother. 672 00:28:03,333 --> 00:28:05,074 And I invited Andy to lunch. 673 00:28:05,205 --> 00:28:09,644 And I told him about the book and about being cancer-free. 674 00:28:09,775 --> 00:28:12,560 And I said I wanted his blessing to move forward 675 00:28:12,647 --> 00:28:13,735 with our embryos. 676 00:28:13,866 --> 00:28:15,606 And what did he say? 677 00:28:15,737 --> 00:28:17,057 He said that his life was changing 678 00:28:17,173 --> 00:28:18,562 and that it didn't feel right, 679 00:28:18,566 --> 00:28:19,781 and that he needed to think about it 680 00:28:19,785 --> 00:28:22,265 and he would get back to me. 681 00:28:22,352 --> 00:28:24,006 What happened next? 682 00:28:24,137 --> 00:28:25,704 He never called. 683 00:28:27,096 --> 00:28:29,664 I sent a follow-up text. Nothing. 684 00:28:29,795 --> 00:28:32,493 Eventually... eventually, I got tired of waiting, 685 00:28:32,623 --> 00:28:35,844 and I knew I needed his signature on the consent form. 686 00:28:35,975 --> 00:28:39,626 So I brought that paperwork to his apartment that night, 687 00:28:39,630 --> 00:28:42,938 and I told him that, 688 00:28:43,025 --> 00:28:45,027 after everything he put me through, 689 00:28:45,158 --> 00:28:49,423 after every betrayal, refusing to let me use our embryos 690 00:28:49,553 --> 00:28:51,991 would be an unforgivable cruelty. 691 00:28:52,121 --> 00:28:53,470 What did he say? 692 00:28:53,601 --> 00:28:55,211 He said that sharing frozen embryos 693 00:28:55,298 --> 00:28:58,258 was an untenable entanglement... 694 00:29:00,869 --> 00:29:03,089 A drama that he wanted to be free of, 695 00:29:03,219 --> 00:29:06,788 like my cancer was a drama he wanted to be free of. 696 00:29:06,919 --> 00:29:09,530 And he just... he was yelling at me, 697 00:29:09,617 --> 00:29:13,182 and he was saying that he was just sick of dealing with me, 698 00:29:13,186 --> 00:29:16,363 that he'd just have our embryos destroyed immediately. 699 00:29:18,234 --> 00:29:19,492 Destroyed. 700 00:29:19,496 --> 00:29:22,935 This is my babies. 701 00:29:23,022 --> 00:29:25,894 I couldn't let that happen. 702 00:29:28,854 --> 00:29:31,117 Thank you, Caroline. 703 00:29:31,204 --> 00:29:32,292 Nothing further. 704 00:29:36,992 --> 00:29:38,820 Sounds like a very upsetting conversation. 705 00:29:38,907 --> 00:29:40,426 Yes, it was. 706 00:29:40,430 --> 00:29:41,649 And to clarify for the jury, 707 00:29:41,736 --> 00:29:43,172 at the end of that conversation, 708 00:29:43,259 --> 00:29:45,261 you lifted a 14-pound marble statue 709 00:29:45,392 --> 00:29:48,264 and you smashed his face in? 710 00:29:48,351 --> 00:29:49,831 I had no choice. 711 00:29:49,918 --> 00:29:53,226 Uh, Ms. Sanders, by law, defense of others 712 00:29:53,313 --> 00:29:57,839 requires that the others in question be in imminent danger. 713 00:29:57,926 --> 00:30:01,273 You bludgeoned Andy Carson to death at 9:14 p.m. 714 00:30:01,277 --> 00:30:03,014 -Yes? -Yeah. 715 00:30:03,018 --> 00:30:05,107 But the facility in Pennsylvania, 716 00:30:05,194 --> 00:30:07,762 where your embryos were stored, closed at 5:00 p.m. 717 00:30:07,893 --> 00:30:10,413 Your fertility clinic closed at 5:30. 718 00:30:10,417 --> 00:30:12,332 How could Andy have possibly done anything 719 00:30:12,419 --> 00:30:13,982 to the embryos that night? 720 00:30:13,986 --> 00:30:16,989 He told me that all he had to do was send an email. 721 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:18,729 I don't know what he set up legally. 722 00:30:18,860 --> 00:30:21,036 I don't know what that means, how that works. 723 00:30:21,123 --> 00:30:23,169 Ms. Sanders, in your testimony, 724 00:30:23,256 --> 00:30:25,689 you just referred to the embryos as your babies. 725 00:30:25,693 --> 00:30:28,565 To clarify, they were frozen cells 726 00:30:28,652 --> 00:30:30,437 over which you had freely granted 727 00:30:30,524 --> 00:30:33,396 legal decision-making rights to your husband. 728 00:30:33,527 --> 00:30:34,767 No, when I signed the paperwork, 729 00:30:34,833 --> 00:30:36,138 it was just a formality. 730 00:30:36,225 --> 00:30:37,879 Like, I didn't even read the fine print. 731 00:30:37,966 --> 00:30:42,231 You also mentioned, in your testimony, your lifelong dream. 732 00:30:42,362 --> 00:30:44,059 Don't those embryos merely represent 733 00:30:44,146 --> 00:30:46,057 your own deep hope for motherhood? 734 00:30:46,061 --> 00:30:49,021 It's a dream that, in effect, you were willing to kill for. 735 00:30:49,151 --> 00:30:50,849 Objection. Argumentative. 736 00:30:50,979 --> 00:30:52,194 Sustained. 737 00:30:52,198 --> 00:30:54,026 They are not a dream, Mr. Price. 738 00:30:54,156 --> 00:30:56,550 They are real. They are my babies. 739 00:30:56,637 --> 00:30:59,248 I am pregnant. 740 00:30:59,335 --> 00:31:01,507 I am pregnant, 741 00:31:01,511 --> 00:31:03,901 right now, with twins. 742 00:31:03,905 --> 00:31:07,039 Um, Your Honor, move to strike. 743 00:31:07,169 --> 00:31:08,997 I'll see everyone in my chambers. 744 00:31:17,701 --> 00:31:20,135 Your Honor, this is a calculated stunt 745 00:31:20,139 --> 00:31:22,924 designed to elicit sympathy from the jury. 746 00:31:23,011 --> 00:31:25,884 It's a clear ploy for jury nullification. 747 00:31:26,014 --> 00:31:28,060 No, this is my client's life. 748 00:31:28,147 --> 00:31:30,406 And implanting those embryos while she was out on bail 749 00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:32,194 was her full legal right. 750 00:31:32,281 --> 00:31:35,063 They belonged entirely to her once Andy Carson died. 751 00:31:35,067 --> 00:31:36,546 You mean, once she murdered him. 752 00:31:36,633 --> 00:31:38,374 Mr. Price, we're far from a verdict. 753 00:31:38,461 --> 00:31:40,507 Request this be struck from the record. 754 00:31:40,594 --> 00:31:43,684 Her factual statement about her present medical condition? 755 00:31:43,814 --> 00:31:46,078 We're silencing women from speaking about pregnancy now? 756 00:31:46,165 --> 00:31:49,081 And request the jury be charged they cannot consider 757 00:31:49,211 --> 00:31:52,084 sympathy for the defendant, that they are only permitted 758 00:31:52,171 --> 00:31:54,216 to apply facts to the law. 759 00:31:54,347 --> 00:31:56,044 I'm not gonna strike the testimony, 760 00:31:56,131 --> 00:31:58,351 but I will instruct the jury not to factor sympathy 761 00:31:58,438 --> 00:31:59,743 into their deliberations. 762 00:32:01,136 --> 00:32:03,573 And Ms. Roland, 763 00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:06,315 I caution you against any further stunts like this. 764 00:32:06,402 --> 00:32:08,317 Understood. 765 00:32:08,448 --> 00:32:09,405 After you. 766 00:32:12,669 --> 00:32:16,369 Jury instructions aside, you have a pregnant defendant, 767 00:32:16,499 --> 00:32:18,980 and I don't see anyone being very eager to send her away 768 00:32:19,111 --> 00:32:21,065 for 15 to life and dooming those babies 769 00:32:21,069 --> 00:32:23,289 to the foster system. 770 00:32:23,419 --> 00:32:25,987 -I say we offer a deal. -Mm. 771 00:32:26,118 --> 00:32:28,468 -For various reasons. -Meaning what? 772 00:32:28,598 --> 00:32:30,596 Well, if we lose, we'd be setting 773 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,254 a pretty dangerous precedent. 774 00:32:32,341 --> 00:32:35,214 Well, I'm not convinced they'd even consider a deal. 775 00:32:35,301 --> 00:32:37,516 They could have argued EED for a reduced sentence. 776 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,215 Probably would have gotten it, but they didn't. 777 00:32:40,219 --> 00:32:42,047 It's all or nothing. 778 00:32:42,177 --> 00:32:45,441 Her whole defense hinges on her sacred belief 779 00:32:45,572 --> 00:32:47,530 of seeing these embryos as lives, right? 780 00:32:47,661 --> 00:32:49,010 Yeah, she's Catholic. 781 00:32:49,141 --> 00:32:51,317 Said she thought he was going to kill her babies. 782 00:32:51,447 --> 00:32:52,405 It's a sham. 783 00:32:52,492 --> 00:32:54,929 If it's a sham, good. 784 00:32:55,016 --> 00:32:56,975 You just have to find something to discredit 785 00:32:57,105 --> 00:32:58,672 her made-up faith narrative. 786 00:33:05,331 --> 00:33:07,329 What are we looking for here, Nolan? 787 00:33:07,333 --> 00:33:10,727 A picture of her burning a cross, shredding a Bible? 788 00:33:10,814 --> 00:33:13,600 She played Abigail in "The Crucible" at college. 789 00:33:15,123 --> 00:33:16,646 At least we're getting warmer. 790 00:33:17,908 --> 00:33:19,040 Wait. 791 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,349 What is this? 792 00:33:23,436 --> 00:33:25,264 Allies for Women's Rights? 793 00:33:28,658 --> 00:33:30,095 A reproductive rights club. 794 00:33:30,182 --> 00:33:32,662 It doesn't sound like a young Catholic's 795 00:33:32,749 --> 00:33:35,274 most likely extracurricular activity. 796 00:33:40,931 --> 00:33:42,281 I'll check it out. 797 00:33:46,328 --> 00:33:48,983 I've only seen her a couple of times since grad school. 798 00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:51,551 But, yeah, we lived together for two years. 799 00:33:51,681 --> 00:33:53,988 We were both studying anthropology. 800 00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:56,813 And Caroline was into a ton of liberal causes, 801 00:33:56,817 --> 00:33:58,253 including clinic defense. 802 00:33:58,384 --> 00:34:00,556 We did a lot together. 803 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,518 She wasn't a Catholic back then? 804 00:34:02,649 --> 00:34:06,087 I think her family was... bank money, Sunday churchgoers. 805 00:34:06,174 --> 00:34:09,569 But Caroline didn't take any of that seriously, 806 00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:12,006 not until the summer after graduation. 807 00:34:13,138 --> 00:34:15,618 Then what, she just started going to church? 808 00:34:15,705 --> 00:34:17,577 Then she got super into church, 809 00:34:17,664 --> 00:34:20,667 went to mass every Sunday, gold cross on her neck, 810 00:34:20,754 --> 00:34:23,496 refused to do clinic defense. 811 00:34:23,583 --> 00:34:24,888 Any idea why? 812 00:34:26,803 --> 00:34:30,459 I would never say this, except... 813 00:34:30,590 --> 00:34:33,110 I read about her case, 814 00:34:33,114 --> 00:34:34,463 and I know how this could affect 815 00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:36,335 the pro-choice movement. 816 00:34:47,302 --> 00:34:48,347 You okay? 817 00:34:50,044 --> 00:34:52,481 I'm pretty sure Caroline Sanders had an abortion 818 00:34:52,612 --> 00:34:53,874 right after grad school. 819 00:34:55,615 --> 00:34:57,791 What? 820 00:34:57,921 --> 00:35:01,099 So much for being a devout Catholic. 821 00:35:01,186 --> 00:35:05,668 But it doesn't speak to motive or to the case itself. 822 00:35:05,755 --> 00:35:08,932 We would never be able to get access to her medical records. 823 00:35:09,019 --> 00:35:10,543 Do we really need her records? 824 00:35:10,673 --> 00:35:12,153 What do you mean? 825 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:15,461 I mean, we can just go in and ask her. 826 00:35:15,548 --> 00:35:19,113 She made religion an issue, not us, Nolan. 827 00:35:19,117 --> 00:35:23,033 So attack a woman in court for getting an abortion? 828 00:35:23,121 --> 00:35:24,948 Hmm. 829 00:35:25,035 --> 00:35:27,168 Caroline Sanders got to lead the life she wanted to 830 00:35:27,255 --> 00:35:29,649 because the law granted her the right to terminate 831 00:35:29,779 --> 00:35:31,868 an unwanted pregnancy. 832 00:35:31,999 --> 00:35:33,435 Maybe it traumatized her. 833 00:35:33,522 --> 00:35:35,825 Maybe it made her change her point of view. 834 00:35:35,829 --> 00:35:37,135 Maybe it led her to the church. 835 00:35:37,265 --> 00:35:39,611 She got to make that choice. 836 00:35:39,615 --> 00:35:41,965 She does not have the right to potentially jeopardize 837 00:35:42,096 --> 00:35:43,750 other women's choices just so she can 838 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,227 get a free walk on murder. 839 00:35:46,231 --> 00:35:48,276 One case on the New York books granting fetuses 840 00:35:48,363 --> 00:35:50,452 de facto person hood, the floodgates open, 841 00:35:50,583 --> 00:35:52,193 and there goes the right to an abortion. 842 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,150 No argument here, but you really think 843 00:35:56,154 --> 00:35:58,286 that's gonna play with the jury coming from a man? 844 00:36:00,419 --> 00:36:01,681 Then let me do it. 845 00:36:05,293 --> 00:36:07,730 You created the embryos with your husband 846 00:36:07,861 --> 00:36:09,993 before you started chemotherapy and radiation. 847 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,865 Yes. 848 00:36:11,952 --> 00:36:15,521 Because, as you said, being a mother was your lifelong dream. 849 00:36:15,651 --> 00:36:17,392 It was. It was everything. 850 00:36:17,479 --> 00:36:20,221 And you believed those embryos 851 00:36:20,308 --> 00:36:23,616 frozen in liquid nitrogen in your doctor's office, 852 00:36:23,703 --> 00:36:27,794 six days into their Petri dish development, 853 00:36:27,881 --> 00:36:30,753 were akin to full human lives. 854 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,230 You're using jargon to try to diminish their importance. 855 00:36:33,234 --> 00:36:34,753 Every human life is irreplaceable, 856 00:36:34,757 --> 00:36:37,020 and embryos are the beginning of human life. 857 00:36:37,107 --> 00:36:39,022 We're all God's unique creation. 858 00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:43,026 And my embryos were and are just waiting to fulfill 859 00:36:43,113 --> 00:36:44,767 their full human potential. 860 00:36:44,854 --> 00:36:46,852 And you couldn't allow someone 861 00:36:46,856 --> 00:36:49,464 to kill your unborn children. 862 00:36:49,468 --> 00:36:51,470 No, I could not. 863 00:36:51,557 --> 00:36:54,821 Because, in your eyes, anyone who would destroy a fetus 864 00:36:54,908 --> 00:36:57,606 is essentially a murderer. 865 00:36:57,693 --> 00:36:58,908 Yes. 866 00:36:58,912 --> 00:37:01,567 So you had to eliminate Andy Carson 867 00:37:01,654 --> 00:37:04,174 because he was going to kill your babies. 868 00:37:04,178 --> 00:37:06,659 I wish it hadn't come to that, but yes. 869 00:37:06,789 --> 00:37:09,792 Caroline, you admit to killing Andy Carson. 870 00:37:09,923 --> 00:37:11,316 I do. 871 00:37:11,446 --> 00:37:14,101 Prior to that, have you ever committed murder? 872 00:37:14,188 --> 00:37:15,490 Objection, Your Honor. 873 00:37:15,494 --> 00:37:18,105 Counsel's question is wildly inflammatory. 874 00:37:18,192 --> 00:37:20,059 My client has never been charged with so much as 875 00:37:20,063 --> 00:37:22,109 a speeding ticket before this case. 876 00:37:22,196 --> 00:37:25,634 Any suggestion of a prior bad act requires a Sandoval motion. 877 00:37:25,765 --> 00:37:27,897 Your Honor, my question is relevant to showing 878 00:37:27,984 --> 00:37:29,812 the defendant may be committing perjury. 879 00:37:29,899 --> 00:37:33,381 It's essential the jury hears her answer, and I'll rephrase. 880 00:37:33,512 --> 00:37:35,818 I'll allow it, but this better get relevant soon. 881 00:37:39,387 --> 00:37:41,994 Caroline, I'm gonna ask you about murder 882 00:37:41,998 --> 00:37:44,479 in your own terms. 883 00:37:48,222 --> 00:37:49,789 Have you ever had an abortion? 884 00:37:55,055 --> 00:37:56,535 Please answer the question. 885 00:38:06,109 --> 00:38:07,023 Yes. 886 00:38:07,110 --> 00:38:08,111 I did. 887 00:38:10,375 --> 00:38:12,242 And it was murder. 888 00:38:12,246 --> 00:38:13,508 Nothing further, Your Honor. 889 00:38:13,595 --> 00:38:14,683 Please stop. 890 00:38:14,770 --> 00:38:16,420 It was the worst thing I ever did. 891 00:38:16,424 --> 00:38:20,689 It was... that's why I had to protect them, and I'm sorry. 892 00:38:20,820 --> 00:38:22,691 I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. 893 00:38:36,792 --> 00:38:38,664 Has the jury reached a verdict? 894 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,794 We have, Your Honor. 895 00:38:42,798 --> 00:38:44,496 How does the jury find? 896 00:38:46,062 --> 00:38:49,065 On the charge of murder in the second degree, 897 00:38:49,152 --> 00:38:52,025 we find the defendant guilty. 898 00:39:06,735 --> 00:39:08,433 Nice work. 899 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,783 Thanks. 900 00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:12,306 Wanna get some lunch? 901 00:39:13,699 --> 00:39:16,179 Um, sorry, I can't. 902 00:39:16,266 --> 00:39:18,268 I have plans. 903 00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:28,670 -Samantha. -Hi. 904 00:39:28,757 --> 00:39:30,150 Come on back. 905 00:39:34,502 --> 00:39:36,809 So what brings you in? 906 00:39:39,594 --> 00:39:43,206 I think I'm finally ready to get started. 907 00:39:43,293 --> 00:39:45,383 I just realized I don't have forever. 908 00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:50,170 You will make an excellent mother. 909 00:39:51,650 --> 00:39:53,129 Thank you.