1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,200 In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,460 yet equally important groups. The police who investigate crime and the district 3 00:00:11,460 --> 00:00:13,120 attorneys who prosecute the offenders. 4 00:00:13,460 --> 00:00:14,760 These are their stories. 5 00:00:16,379 --> 00:00:18,400 I'm telling you, you have it all wrong. 6 00:00:19,980 --> 00:00:21,060 I'm not responsible. 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:23,680 Listen to me. 8 00:00:23,980 --> 00:00:24,980 Listen to me. 9 00:00:25,580 --> 00:00:26,780 Please, I have to go. 10 00:00:34,190 --> 00:00:36,810 Do I hear 410,000? 11 00:00:38,150 --> 00:00:39,610 Do I hear 410? 12 00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:44,830 410, right down in front. Oh, good, boss. You're missing the action. Do I 13 00:00:44,830 --> 00:00:46,910 hear 415,000? 14 00:00:47,810 --> 00:00:49,330 Do I hear 415? 15 00:00:50,470 --> 00:00:53,470 415. Do I hear 420? 16 00:00:54,830 --> 00:00:58,970 420 in the back from Wendy. Do I hear 430? 17 00:01:00,110 --> 00:01:01,850 Do I hear 430? 18 00:01:02,510 --> 00:01:03,510 Hammer's up. 19 00:01:04,140 --> 00:01:05,680 Damn, Andy, what a find. 20 00:01:06,180 --> 00:01:07,180 Hammer's up. 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,760 Sold at $420,000. 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:16,920 You are my hero. 23 00:01:27,580 --> 00:01:28,580 Who's that, Vic? 24 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,460 Andrew Carson, age 41. 25 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:32,300 Super says he lives alone. 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:33,640 Who found him? 27 00:01:33,690 --> 00:01:37,070 Cleaning lady. She's been working for him two years. Always comes at 10 once 28 00:01:37,070 --> 00:01:39,590 he's out the door. Didn't know much about him. We took a statement. 29 00:01:39,930 --> 00:01:40,950 Blood force trauma? 30 00:01:41,230 --> 00:01:42,450 Yep. With this. 31 00:01:43,490 --> 00:01:44,490 Made of stone. 32 00:01:44,710 --> 00:01:47,510 Guy's got a bunch of statues and stuff like this around. 33 00:01:47,790 --> 00:01:48,790 Any prints on it? 34 00:01:48,970 --> 00:01:52,050 No, but we did find a brown hair on his shirt. 35 00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:54,370 Okay, let's run DNA. Time of death? 36 00:01:54,710 --> 00:01:58,450 MLI said based on temp and rigidity somewhere between 9 and 11 last night. 37 00:01:58,690 --> 00:01:59,690 This building got any surveillance? 38 00:02:00,130 --> 00:02:02,050 Camera's at the entrance by the keypad. 39 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:03,780 Don't look like there was a struggle. 40 00:02:04,180 --> 00:02:05,700 No sign of forced entry. 41 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,920 No glasses out, lights are bright. 42 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:09,900 Don't look like he was entertaining. 43 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,120 Well, he wasn't robbed. 44 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:14,120 Wallets here on the table. 45 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:17,300 That's a Tag Heuer smartwatch. 46 00:02:18,820 --> 00:02:19,820 I'm not a watch guy. 47 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,800 3K on a good day. All right, let's check his biometric data, see if we can fix 48 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:24,820 the exact time of death. 49 00:02:25,340 --> 00:02:26,500 Meridian Auction House. 50 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:31,240 A Night of Magnificent Discoveries, August 26th, 6 p.m. 51 00:02:32,270 --> 00:02:33,710 Well, we know where he was last night. 52 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,140 Andy wasn't just at the auction. He organized the auction. 53 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,420 He was our head of antiquities, one of the best in the business. 54 00:03:28,980 --> 00:03:34,180 Scraped sellers, the fanciest buyers, super knowledgeable, discreet. 55 00:03:34,860 --> 00:03:36,680 He scored unbelievable items. 56 00:03:37,020 --> 00:03:38,020 We heard he lived alone. 57 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:39,340 Anyone we should notify? 58 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:40,840 Not that I know of. 59 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:42,600 His parents had passed. 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,720 He divorced a few years ago. No kids. 61 00:03:45,180 --> 00:03:47,720 Ex-wife lives in the Hamptons. I don't think they speak. 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,120 You dating anyone? 63 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,040 More like, who wasn't he dating? 64 00:03:51,530 --> 00:03:53,310 but no one special, I think. 65 00:03:53,570 --> 00:03:55,030 What time did you leave here last night? 66 00:03:55,270 --> 00:03:56,690 Auction ended around 7.45. 67 00:03:57,130 --> 00:03:58,130 He was gone by 8. 68 00:03:58,370 --> 00:03:59,370 You leave alone? 69 00:03:59,610 --> 00:04:03,510 Yeah. I offered to go celebrate with him. The auction was a major success, 70 00:04:03,810 --> 00:04:06,270 but he said he was headed home to recharge. 71 00:04:06,850 --> 00:04:07,850 He was exhausted. 72 00:04:11,050 --> 00:04:12,050 Anything else? 73 00:04:12,570 --> 00:04:15,650 The only weird thing is that Andy was late to the auction. 74 00:04:15,930 --> 00:04:18,290 He'd been planning the night for five months, but... 75 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:21,240 He was stuck on some call in his office, so it must have been important. 76 00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:24,160 Okay. Do you know who he was talking to? Not a clue. 77 00:04:24,740 --> 00:04:26,220 Afterwards, he didn't want to talk about it. 78 00:04:27,020 --> 00:04:30,500 Well, if you think of anything else... 79 00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:35,020 Calvino. Yep? 80 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,100 Video came in from Carson's building. 81 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,500 All right, he punches in at 827. 82 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,800 Seems he went straight home from the auction. 83 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:45,400 Who came in after him? 84 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,960 A few tenants use their access code and enter before 10 p.m., but at the bottom 85 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:55,160 right of the panel is Carson's button, and you can see someone hit it at 9.22. 86 00:04:56,460 --> 00:05:01,480 Spent some time shouting into the intercom, and then he finally slips in 87 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:02,720 behind the delivery guy. 88 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,000 We catch him on the way out? 89 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:05,880 Yep. Six minutes later. 90 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,160 You run that through facial rec? 91 00:05:09,500 --> 00:05:10,500 Nothing. 92 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,500 All we have to go on is this. 93 00:05:15,180 --> 00:05:15,939 Oh, NYU. 94 00:05:15,940 --> 00:05:18,580 That's great. Narrows it down. Only half the city went there. 95 00:05:19,180 --> 00:05:21,300 Carson's work phone records just landed. Guess what? 96 00:05:21,540 --> 00:05:25,380 That call that kept him in his office before the auction came from the 97 00:05:25,380 --> 00:05:26,380 Manhattan DA's office. 98 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,500 I got a credible complaint that day about a 6th century Buddha that was 99 00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:37,500 about to go up for auction. 100 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,360 Complaint saying what? That the Buddha had been looted from Afghanistan 25 101 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,480 years ago by the Taliban. 102 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,040 How'd Carson take that? 103 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:49,720 I'd say disturbingly nonchalant for someone that just stumbled into a 104 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,200 thousand-year Afghani power battle. 105 00:05:51,740 --> 00:05:54,120 I chase these white-collar guys all day long. 106 00:05:54,500 --> 00:05:58,300 They're uniformly ill-equipped for the mess they get themselves into. 107 00:05:58,780 --> 00:05:59,780 A lot of this stuff is stolen? 108 00:06:00,500 --> 00:06:06,200 Stolen, forged, tax havens for power players you do not want on your contact 109 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,400 list, or money laundering vehicles for organized crime. 110 00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:12,640 Frankly, I'm surprised more of these guys don't end up dead. 111 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:16,000 Any idea who might have been pissed at Carson for orchestrating that particular 112 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,000 auction last night? 113 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:22,080 Complaint came in a day ago. A man named Abdul Ahad Farhadi. I spoke to him on 114 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,480 the phone. He was very angry. He said anyone selling this statue was 115 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,780 conspiring with the Taliban and should be held accountable. 116 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,040 Farhadi, you got a record? 117 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,360 All I know is the guy's an art conservator and a professor. 118 00:06:36,820 --> 00:06:37,719 Let me guess. 119 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:38,720 NYU. 120 00:06:40,270 --> 00:06:43,410 We know you called into Andy Carson's office in the days before his murder. 121 00:06:44,210 --> 00:06:46,470 Murder? And we know he was blowing off your calls. 122 00:06:47,010 --> 00:06:49,730 So you paid him a visit at his home last night. I did not. 123 00:06:50,610 --> 00:06:53,010 See? That's you at his building. 124 00:06:53,870 --> 00:06:55,310 Killing a man over a Buddha statue. 125 00:06:55,730 --> 00:06:59,870 You seen the irony? I did not kill him. I just needed to speak with him. That's 126 00:06:59,870 --> 00:07:02,350 a whole lot of urgency over, what, old art? 127 00:07:02,590 --> 00:07:03,590 You don't understand. 128 00:07:04,170 --> 00:07:07,890 The Buddha was stolen from the Mes Ainak archaeological site. I was the 129 00:07:07,890 --> 00:07:09,610 conservator there before the Taliban invasion. 130 00:07:10,290 --> 00:07:13,330 You make it sound like you think you had a right to kill him. I had every right 131 00:07:13,330 --> 00:07:14,790 to confront him. In his home? 132 00:07:15,210 --> 00:07:16,910 9.30 at night? Come on, man. 133 00:07:17,210 --> 00:07:20,830 I only heard it was up for sale a few days ago. I tried the proper channels. 134 00:07:20,910 --> 00:07:22,090 No one was responding. 135 00:07:23,030 --> 00:07:26,370 Then I watched the auction on livestream, and I got very agitated. 136 00:07:26,650 --> 00:07:29,390 So you tracked down Carson's address, you slipped into his building, and you 137 00:07:29,390 --> 00:07:30,129 got revenge? 138 00:07:30,130 --> 00:07:34,100 No. He wasn't responding to me on the intercom, and I needed to get the name 139 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:38,020 of the seller, the thief, who put it up for auction, so I could initiate a claim 140 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:39,020 with Interpol. 141 00:07:39,260 --> 00:07:41,080 When I got inside, Carson wasn't home. 142 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:43,460 I knocked and knocked, so I finally left. 143 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,640 Look, I am not a murderer. 144 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,000 My country has been pilfered. 145 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,080 Got no alibi to speak of, but plenty of means, motive, and opportunity. 146 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,900 Yeah, yeah, but honestly, do you see Carson open up his door at that time of 147 00:08:08,900 --> 00:08:10,140 night for some art conservatory? 148 00:08:10,860 --> 00:08:13,680 Um, what time did your guy Farhadi get to Carson's? 149 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,500 Entered at 9.22, exited at 9.31. 150 00:08:16,780 --> 00:08:19,220 Well, we just got the data from the Vic's smart watch. 151 00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:23,520 Heart rate spiked at 9.06, and by 9.14, no heartbeat. 152 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,780 Farhadi hadn't even got to the victim's building by that time. Yeah, let him go. 153 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,200 Also, I just had to listen to Carson's last voicemails. Big Switty called him. 154 00:08:31,380 --> 00:08:32,520 Big Switty? The rapper? 155 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:33,379 Mm-hmm. 156 00:08:33,380 --> 00:08:35,880 Called him an hour before the murder. Listen to this. 157 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:40,340 Hey, Carson, you want to make this thing ugly, I'll break your face ugly. 158 00:08:43,539 --> 00:08:44,540 Carson's dead. 159 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:45,600 For real? 160 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,580 Serves his dumbass right. 161 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:49,560 You sound broken up. 162 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:51,300 How do you know him? 163 00:08:52,020 --> 00:08:53,040 Through the art scene. 164 00:08:53,900 --> 00:08:55,960 My wife and I like African art. 165 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:57,880 Andy was our broker. 166 00:08:58,680 --> 00:08:59,680 Liked him, too. 167 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,140 Until I found out this Egyptian mask that I bought for 300 grand was a fake. 168 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,219 You blame Andy? 169 00:09:06,220 --> 00:09:07,220 Damn straight. 170 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:09,280 Told him I wanted my money back. 171 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:10,399 May I? 172 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,200 Please. He pony up? 173 00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:14,480 No. You get pissed? 174 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:15,679 Hell yeah. 175 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:17,980 But my wife had a soft spot for the guy. 176 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:20,460 Told me we should resolve this like adults. 177 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,060 So we invited him and his girlfriend over for dinner a month ago. 178 00:09:24,650 --> 00:09:26,310 Then I let him know I wanted my money. 179 00:09:26,970 --> 00:09:28,110 Gave him 30 days. 180 00:09:28,490 --> 00:09:29,490 Let me guess. 181 00:09:29,890 --> 00:09:30,890 He didn't pay. 182 00:09:31,310 --> 00:09:32,310 Deadline was yesterday. 183 00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:34,010 That's why I left that message. 184 00:09:34,310 --> 00:09:35,310 I'm gonna ask you this question. 185 00:09:35,670 --> 00:09:40,070 Where were you last night at 9.30? At dinner with my manager and my lawyer. 186 00:09:40,470 --> 00:09:42,350 This girlfriend of his, guy name? 187 00:09:43,310 --> 00:09:45,050 Lucy Butler. 188 00:09:46,250 --> 00:09:49,010 They weren't getting along so good, that's for sure. 189 00:09:49,350 --> 00:09:50,350 What makes you say that? 190 00:09:50,510 --> 00:09:53,090 She just kept rolling her eyes at everything he said. 191 00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:54,970 Like she knew he was full of it. 192 00:09:55,890 --> 00:09:56,890 Okay. 193 00:09:57,870 --> 00:09:58,870 Thank you for your time. 194 00:09:58,950 --> 00:09:59,950 Thank you. No worries. 195 00:10:01,750 --> 00:10:02,750 Hey, 196 00:10:02,910 --> 00:10:05,310 the hair we found in the crime scene belonged to a woman. 197 00:10:05,670 --> 00:10:07,490 Let's go see how bad things were with Lucy Puppet. 198 00:10:10,850 --> 00:10:11,990 I heard this morning. 199 00:10:12,410 --> 00:10:13,930 I still can't believe he's dead. 200 00:10:14,370 --> 00:10:15,770 When was the last time you saw him? 201 00:10:17,050 --> 00:10:18,210 Three, four weeks ago. 202 00:10:19,130 --> 00:10:20,130 Think it's gonna work out? 203 00:10:21,450 --> 00:10:22,450 No. 204 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:29,040 I mean, I tried, but... Like, I knew Andy had a reputation for dating a lot 205 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,020 of women, but he swore to me he was a changed man and he wanted to settle down 206 00:10:33,020 --> 00:10:34,019 and all that. 207 00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:35,020 So he cheated on you? 208 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:37,100 With his ex-wife. 209 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,540 Seriously. You heard they didn't speak. 210 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,220 Oh, yeah, he told me that, too. 211 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:43,760 Said he hated her. 212 00:10:44,660 --> 00:10:48,600 Then one day, he tells me he's going to the gym, but he's actually meeting up 213 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,880 with his ex at some swank hotel. 214 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:52,180 Oh. How'd that make you feel? 215 00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:54,910 Like an idiot. 216 00:10:55,550 --> 00:10:58,950 Yeah. Yeah, but... You were pretty upset. 217 00:10:59,890 --> 00:11:00,890 Yeah, I was. 218 00:11:03,310 --> 00:11:07,210 I didn't kill him, for God's sake. I just broke up with him. 219 00:11:07,690 --> 00:11:09,390 Of course, he was cheating with his ex-wife. 220 00:11:09,810 --> 00:11:10,810 Yes. 221 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:12,830 He denied it, of course. 222 00:11:13,690 --> 00:11:17,290 Claimed that they were just discussing some kind of stressful legal matter. 223 00:11:18,530 --> 00:11:19,710 So where were you last night? 224 00:11:20,810 --> 00:11:21,810 On a date. 225 00:11:22,700 --> 00:11:23,700 Can we get his name? 226 00:11:26,460 --> 00:11:30,460 Lucy Butler's date confirmed they met at 7.30 and parted ways at 10 p.m. 227 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,520 Any word on whether the ex-wife was back in the picture? 228 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,700 We had almost no communication with her. But from the divorce violence, I could 229 00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:38,700 see why. 230 00:11:38,740 --> 00:11:41,120 Carson tried to squeeze her out of as much money as possible. 231 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:43,440 She's rich. Oh, she's rich. 232 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,100 The family started an actual bank rich. 233 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,140 You know, luckily for her, his rampant infidelity was frowned upon by the 234 00:11:50,140 --> 00:11:51,140 court. 235 00:11:51,260 --> 00:11:55,360 So I'm thinking reconciliation was off the table for her. Well, after that 236 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,420 lunch, she sent him a single text about a week before the murder. 237 00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:03,380 Are you ever going to respond? 238 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:05,700 And let me guess, he did not. 239 00:12:06,180 --> 00:12:09,420 Nada. Okay, maybe there was some pressing legal matter they had to 240 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:11,900 discuss, and he blew her off. She got pissed. 241 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,480 Well, she's coming back from the Hamptons tomorrow morning, and she was 242 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,380 gracious enough to give us a place where we could meet her. 243 00:12:17,260 --> 00:12:18,260 Nice. 244 00:12:21,610 --> 00:12:22,429 No, please. 245 00:12:22,430 --> 00:12:26,050 There was nothing secretive or salacious about our meeting. 246 00:12:26,330 --> 00:12:29,510 We had lunch about a month ago by request. 247 00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:33,850 I wanted to let Andy know about my upcoming memoir. 248 00:12:35,070 --> 00:12:36,070 Memoir? 249 00:12:36,670 --> 00:12:38,490 Jilted. It's about our marriage. 250 00:12:38,830 --> 00:12:40,450 Did that create a legal dispute? 251 00:12:40,670 --> 00:12:41,670 Some tension? 252 00:12:42,030 --> 00:12:43,030 Well, it could have. 253 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:45,210 And I was expecting pushback, but... 254 00:12:46,380 --> 00:12:50,720 I was honest with Andy. I told him I wrote about how he spent my money, how 255 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:51,720 he cheated on me. 256 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,900 Cheated during my battle with breast cancer while I was undergoing 257 00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:55,900 chemotherapy. 258 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,540 Sounds like you're not sending flowers to his wake. 259 00:12:58,940 --> 00:13:00,540 No, I will not. 260 00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:02,820 So you really had an axe to grind, huh? 261 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:04,640 Yes, I did at first. 262 00:13:05,340 --> 00:13:08,760 I thought I was going to spend my life with that man and start a family, and 263 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,800 then suddenly my future was shattered. 264 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,340 And then I saw that it was all actually... 265 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:15,820 part of God's plan for me. 266 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,500 Why didn't you just call him and give him a heads up? 267 00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:21,880 You could have had a lawyer sent over and help me. 268 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,420 Have you ever been unceremoniously dumped, detective, and dragged through 269 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:27,300 the mud and humiliated in divorce court? 270 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,960 In fact, yes, I have, just a few months ago. 271 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:36,400 The last time Andy saw me, I was a weak, begging wreck, and I invited Andy to 272 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,160 lunch because I wanted him to see me like this. 273 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,660 How do you two leave things? 274 00:13:43,390 --> 00:13:47,170 At the lunch, I told him that I had left our divorce a happier person and that I 275 00:13:47,170 --> 00:13:48,170 forgave him. 276 00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:50,550 Thanks to God. 277 00:13:53,130 --> 00:13:55,050 Okay. Where were you two nights ago? 278 00:13:55,590 --> 00:13:59,090 Um, I was at my house in the Hamptons watching TV. 279 00:14:00,890 --> 00:14:01,890 Thank you for your time. 280 00:14:02,670 --> 00:14:05,790 If you think of anything else, let us know. 281 00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:07,590 Of course. Oh, thank you. 282 00:14:11,230 --> 00:14:12,710 Sorry to hear about the breakup, man. 283 00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:15,270 No, no, no, it's all good. I was just playing. 284 00:14:19,170 --> 00:14:21,190 The ex-wife's Hampton stories checks out. 285 00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:24,730 The phone pinged from her residence the night of question. I ran her plate. So 286 00:14:24,730 --> 00:14:27,650 she hasn't driven back to the city since she had lunch with Carson. That was a 287 00:14:27,650 --> 00:14:28,650 month ago. 288 00:14:28,970 --> 00:14:33,330 But we know from the DNA that it was a woman, so the only lead we have on that 289 00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:36,170 front right now is the ex-girlfriend, whose story seems to be checking out, 290 00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:39,250 correct? I got that video of the ex-girlfriend you wanted. Yeah? So it 291 00:14:39,250 --> 00:14:42,250 starts with her leaving the restaurant and parting ways with her date at 8.53. 292 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,160 Then she started to walk in Carson's direction. 293 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,680 And two blocks later, she peels west. 294 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:49,960 Any chance she doubled back any place? 295 00:14:50,340 --> 00:14:53,940 I thought the same thing, so I started pulling video between there and Carson's 296 00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:54,940 apartment. 297 00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:57,140 No sign of the ex-girlfriend, but take a look at this. 298 00:14:59,540 --> 00:15:01,420 This is two blocks from Carson's crib. 299 00:15:05,980 --> 00:15:08,100 Ooh, I'm sorry. I'm really nervous. 300 00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:11,370 This is my first press. Relax, you'll do great. 301 00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:12,990 And the book was wonderful. 302 00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:14,330 I really loved it. 303 00:15:14,850 --> 00:15:17,490 Okay, get ready and just watch for the green light. 304 00:15:18,370 --> 00:15:20,530 Five, four, three. 305 00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:24,370 NYPD. Excuse me, we're about to report. Caroline Sanders, you're under arrest 306 00:15:24,370 --> 00:15:25,490 for the murder of Andrew Carson. 307 00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:27,890 I guess you turn around and put your hands behind your back. 308 00:15:29,410 --> 00:15:30,410 Real easy. 309 00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:31,430 Thank you. 310 00:15:32,190 --> 00:15:35,370 Hey, don't worry. It's going to make a hell of a sequel. 311 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,120 The evidence against Caroline Sanders is seemingly rock solid. 312 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,220 Yeah. Looks like police found clear video of her near the crime scene that 313 00:15:46,220 --> 00:15:49,600 night and video of her at his building eight minutes before he was killed, 314 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,580 hiding her face with a scarf, using a passcode to punch in. Seems like she 315 00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:57,320 knew the entry code from when they shared the apartment during the 316 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,020 marriage. The warrant for her DNA gives a sample to prove she has a match for 317 00:16:01,020 --> 00:16:02,020 the hair found on the victim. 318 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,020 Yeah, but what's the motive? 319 00:16:05,390 --> 00:16:10,230 Divorce was a legal bloodbath, but that was two years ago, and Caroline made off 320 00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:13,850 well. Her life was on the total upswing. Why kill him now? 321 00:16:15,010 --> 00:16:20,950 Let's start with any and all phone calls, emails, texts after this mystery 322 00:16:20,950 --> 00:16:21,950 lunch. 323 00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:26,870 We received your subpoena. Take a seat. 324 00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:28,170 Thanks. 325 00:16:30,010 --> 00:16:33,510 So, Andy Carson called these offices... 326 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,580 five times on July 24th. 327 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:36,920 Can you tell me why? 328 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:40,440 He called incessantly, and they ended up having to page me. 329 00:16:41,220 --> 00:16:42,660 He was in quite a state. 330 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:45,560 So, Andy and Caroline were patients? 331 00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:50,780 Yes. When Caroline was diagnosed with cancer, IVF became their only option. 332 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,420 Because of the chemo, her eggs were no longer viable, and so they made sure 333 00:16:56,420 --> 00:16:59,120 they had embryos frozen for after her recovery. 334 00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:04,079 So... And he called about the embryos? He called to ask about their signed 335 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:06,700 paperwork. Who had rights to their embryos. 336 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,260 I assured him two-party consent was required for implantation. That seemed 337 00:17:11,260 --> 00:17:12,260 to calm him. 338 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,119 Can I see that paperwork? 339 00:17:14,740 --> 00:17:16,640 I can send you a digital copy. 340 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,619 The originals were transferred to our Pennsylvania storage facility with the 341 00:17:20,619 --> 00:17:21,619 embryos. 342 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,420 Why were they moved? 343 00:17:23,819 --> 00:17:27,319 Because of the chemo. They knew they'd need long-term storage. 344 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,520 Caroline was anxious about blackouts in the city, events that could compromise 345 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,580 the power supply, put the embryos at risk. 346 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,200 She knew this would be her last shot at biological motherhood. 347 00:17:41,020 --> 00:17:42,840 Okay, thank you. Of course. 348 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,120 Um, one last thing. 349 00:17:45,380 --> 00:17:49,280 Did Caroline ever reach out about the embryos after they were frozen? 350 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,200 She came to see me the same afternoon Andy called. 351 00:17:59,220 --> 00:18:02,800 Caroline Sanders wanted to move forward and plant the embryos they had frozen. 352 00:18:03,020 --> 00:18:06,900 Andy Carson didn't. Yeah, they signed paperwork that said they both had to 353 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:08,360 consent, so she felt stuck. 354 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,780 And the courts generally side in favor of the spouse who doesn't want to be a 355 00:18:11,780 --> 00:18:14,460 parent. Right, so she knew she'd lose before a judge. 356 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,520 And I wouldn't worry about her getting sympathy from a jury. This is a state 357 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,860 where we don't believe in compelling people into parenthood. 358 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,180 Well, unless the embryos are made the old-fashioned way. 359 00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:29,010 Caroline lost her say because she needed IVF. You may find a couple jurors 360 00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:30,570 sympathetic to that legal contradiction. 361 00:18:31,150 --> 00:18:35,450 Contradiction or not, we can show that she killed her ex to prevent him from 362 00:18:35,450 --> 00:18:36,450 saying no. 363 00:18:41,010 --> 00:18:45,990 Evidence clearly linking Caroline Sanders to this crime. Her hair was 364 00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:47,350 found on the victim's clothing. 365 00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:51,830 Video shows her entering his building eight minutes before the murder, 366 00:18:51,910 --> 00:18:53,590 attempting to disguise herself. 367 00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:57,810 In addition, she went to great efforts that night to cover her tracks. 368 00:18:58,150 --> 00:19:01,490 She took the train into the city to avoid her license plate showing her 369 00:19:01,490 --> 00:19:06,290 movements. She even left her cell phone at home to avoid being traced to the 370 00:19:06,290 --> 00:19:11,810 vicinity of the crime. This murder was calculated and vicious. 371 00:19:12,210 --> 00:19:13,670 Why did she kill him? 372 00:19:14,250 --> 00:19:18,570 Because the only way for her to gain control of the embryos they created 373 00:19:18,570 --> 00:19:22,510 together was to eliminate him from the equation entirely. 374 00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:34,070 Your Honor, members of the jury, we don't contest the evidence 375 00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:35,690 or the facts of this murder. 376 00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:38,190 Mr. Price is absolutely right. 377 00:19:38,750 --> 00:19:45,510 My client, Caroline Sanders, killed her ex-husband, but only because Andy Carson 378 00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:51,150 was going to destroy those unborn lives, her unborn children. 379 00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:54,090 She was entirely justified. 380 00:19:54,860 --> 00:19:58,040 In fact, Caroline Sanders had no choice. 381 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:04,000 This was defense of others. Your Honor, may we approach? 382 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,860 Members of the jury, this is a good time for a short recess. 383 00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:12,240 Counselors, I'll see you in my chambers now. 384 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,500 This murder to be justified as a defense of others, she had to be defending other 385 00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:23,160 people. New York State is crystal clear on this matter. Embryos are not people. 386 00:20:23,340 --> 00:20:28,680 There were no others to defend. And even if by some wild stretch they had been 387 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,240 deemed lives in this state, there was no imminent threat. 388 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:36,760 The law requires my client reasonably believe these were her children as of 389 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,360 conception. Not only did she believe it as a long-time practicing Catholic, but 390 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,080 her belief is objectively reasonable. 391 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,080 as it's a belief shared by 1.4 billion Catholics on this planet. 392 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,100 Your Honor, allowing this defense would not only contradict New York case law, 393 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,680 but it would be setting a dangerous precedent that could be used to impede 394 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,420 abortion rights and compromise IVF access. 395 00:20:57,740 --> 00:21:02,100 By their own logic, this would allow a man to use force legally against a woman 396 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:03,100 trying to get an abortion. 397 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,820 These issues can and should be entirely separated. 398 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,000 You can't forbid my client a proper defense because someone else has... 399 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,560 personal or political concerns about its implications. 400 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:18,480 Like it or not, Alabama has granted embryos legal personhood, and 38 states 401 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:19,760 have fetal homicide laws. 402 00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:21,300 Not New York. 403 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,200 No, but Pennsylvania, where my client's embryos were stored at the time this 404 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:26,200 crime occurred, does. 405 00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:31,220 In that state, killing a fetus at any stage of gestation in a non-abortion act 406 00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:34,260 can be deemed homicide. Your Honor, the crime occurred in New York. 407 00:21:34,580 --> 00:21:38,620 This is a totally irrelevant citation of out-of-state statutes. 408 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:44,640 But the legal status of a person does depend entirely on where said person is. 409 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,840 I'm gonna have to play Solomon here. 410 00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:52,300 New York law governs the crime, but Pennsylvania law necessitates that I 411 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:53,840 allow her justification defense. 412 00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:56,660 Your Honor. It's up to the prosecution to disprove it. 413 00:22:01,540 --> 00:22:04,460 And why did the defendant initially come under your care? 414 00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:06,900 Caroline was diagnosed with breast cancer. 415 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:11,040 And Andy and Caroline were eager to make sure they could have children after her 416 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,380 chemotherapy was over. Prior to embarking on the medical steps for this 417 00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:18,600 fertility plan, did the defendant and her husband sign any paperwork 418 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,140 pertaining to who had decision-making rights over the embryos once created? 419 00:22:23,380 --> 00:22:28,140 Yes. They signed our standard forms that indicate the embryos are, in effect, 420 00:22:28,260 --> 00:22:32,200 shared property, that no implantation is allowed without dual consent. 421 00:22:32,620 --> 00:22:38,380 Did you ever discuss with the defendant the prospect of destroying the embryos? 422 00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:42,980 Yes. Couples don't always want unused embryos stored in perpetuity. 423 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,640 So we advise them they have the option to destroy the embryos at any time. Did 424 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,880 the defendant exhibit any distress to the prospect of destroying the embryos? 425 00:22:51,180 --> 00:22:52,200 Not that I recall. 426 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:54,820 Well, did she say that's out of the question? 427 00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:56,100 She did not. 428 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,240 Did she say that would be murder? 429 00:22:58,780 --> 00:23:01,160 No. Did she say anything or... 430 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:07,360 or ask anything that indicated that she considered the embryos to be actual 431 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:08,360 lives? 432 00:23:08,980 --> 00:23:11,460 No. Thank you. Nothing pertinent. 433 00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:17,180 Dr. Stanton, you said that she didn't appear to think of the embryos as actual 434 00:23:17,180 --> 00:23:18,340 lives. Correct. 435 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,560 As a matter of scientific fact, is a sperm a cell? 436 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,440 Yes. A woman's egg a cell? 437 00:23:24,660 --> 00:23:27,580 Yes. Is either one of those a living organism? 438 00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:29,180 No. 439 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,540 Now, how about when the sperm and egg meet to form a zygote? 440 00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:35,640 Is that biologically different? 441 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:43,860 Yes. In fact, the zygote created is a living single-cell organism, correct? 442 00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:46,540 With its own unique human DNA. 443 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:47,800 Your Honor, relevance? 444 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,440 Mr. Price focuses direct on the matter of these embryos being lives. 445 00:23:51,740 --> 00:23:55,700 These questions are needed to clarify the matter for the jury so they can 446 00:23:55,700 --> 00:23:58,020 ascertain the reasonableness of my client's defense. 447 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:00,600 I'll allow it. 448 00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:05,680 Saying life begins at conception. 449 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,460 Isn't that all scientifically inaccurate, is it? 450 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:13,900 In fact, it's biologically quite reasonable. 451 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,500 Well, it's a semantic way of saying... Of stating fact. 452 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:20,360 Nothing further. 453 00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:23,600 Your Honor, redirect. 454 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:24,960 Go ahead. 455 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,080 Doctor. 456 00:24:26,540 --> 00:24:29,760 Is an amoeba a single-cell living organism? 457 00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:34,140 Yes. What about E. coli, or algae? 458 00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:35,680 Yes, and yes. 459 00:24:35,980 --> 00:24:37,200 The yeast we use in bread? 460 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,700 All single-cell living organisms. 461 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:40,919 Thank you. 462 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,180 Your Honor, people rest. 463 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,400 So how'd our doctor do? 464 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:53,920 What to talk about? 465 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:55,380 Psy goats and amoebas. 466 00:24:56,460 --> 00:25:00,980 We just have to keep hammering them with the science and then no matter what the 467 00:25:00,980 --> 00:25:05,460 defense puts on them, confident the jury will see through the attempt to use faux 468 00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:07,900 religion to stampede over the law. 469 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:15,700 Well, but Catholic or not, lots of hopeful moms do see their faux in 470 00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:18,380 cells as more than just cells. 471 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,900 And I can think of at least three female jurors who might be swayed by Caroline's 472 00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:23,900 endo situation. 473 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,880 Most women her age do have something nice. 474 00:25:29,660 --> 00:25:30,660 Do you? 475 00:25:31,220 --> 00:25:32,220 Have something nice? 476 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,300 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, no, no. You don't have to answer that. It's fine. 477 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:37,300 It's okay. 478 00:25:38,460 --> 00:25:39,460 Look, Nolan. 479 00:25:39,740 --> 00:25:41,880 I love my job. 480 00:25:42,460 --> 00:25:48,300 But do you think I want to come home every night to an empty apartment at 11 481 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:49,600 p.m. for the rest of my life? 482 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:52,880 No. It's the ultimate insurance policy. 483 00:25:53,470 --> 00:25:55,330 for your most important life dreams. 484 00:25:57,070 --> 00:26:03,290 Makes you feel like... like the option of a brand-new life with motherhood is 485 00:26:03,290 --> 00:26:04,290 always there. 486 00:26:04,590 --> 00:26:09,770 If someone destroyed that or threatened to destroy that chance, I'd be a total 487 00:26:09,770 --> 00:26:11,570 wreck. You wouldn't kill. 488 00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:13,210 Yeah. Wouldn't kill. 489 00:26:16,050 --> 00:26:22,130 I think the key here is showing that Caroline Sanders was selfishly 490 00:26:22,130 --> 00:26:26,520 defending... her own hopes, her own future. I mean, she killed her ex 491 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,480 -husband to protect the life that she wanted for herself. 492 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,200 This had nothing to do with defending others. 493 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,980 My breast cancer diagnosis was terrifying, but what was more terrifying 494 00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:46,860 was what that meant for my dream of becoming a mother. 495 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,080 You know, that had always been the plan. 496 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,880 We just kind of put it off because you think you have forever. 497 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,560 And you know Andy and I thought that we would get to it when we were ready But 498 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,740 then suddenly we just need to have to make big decisions. 499 00:26:59,980 --> 00:27:05,440 And so we started IVF immediately to freeze embryos But you and Andy divorced 500 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,360 before you could complete your fertility plan. 501 00:27:08,580 --> 00:27:14,220 Yes a year into my chemo treatment we were driving home from dinner with 502 00:27:14,220 --> 00:27:19,430 friends and Andy told me that he no longer wanted to be married to me and At 503 00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:22,650 first, he didn't offer an explanation, but eventually I found out he was having 504 00:27:22,650 --> 00:27:23,650 an affair. 505 00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:25,350 One of many. 506 00:27:26,350 --> 00:27:27,770 That must have been really tough. 507 00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:29,070 It was horrible. 508 00:27:29,770 --> 00:27:34,630 I was a wreck from chemo and radiation. I felt so ashamed. 509 00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:39,130 And that's why I ended up writing the book, you see. I wanted to put that 510 00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:40,230 truth into words. 511 00:27:41,070 --> 00:27:42,970 And what happened when you finished the memoir? 512 00:27:43,410 --> 00:27:48,010 Around the time that I sold the book to a publisher, I was declared cancer-free. 513 00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:51,500 And I felt God's protection at last. 514 00:27:51,860 --> 00:27:53,820 And so I thought, I'm ready to become a mother. 515 00:27:55,080 --> 00:28:00,360 And I invited Andy to lunch, and I told him about the book and about being 516 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:01,360 cancer-free. 517 00:28:01,460 --> 00:28:05,600 And I said I wanted his blessing to move forward with our embryos. 518 00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:07,080 And what did he say? 519 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,620 He said that his life was changing and that it didn't feel right and that he 520 00:28:10,620 --> 00:28:12,540 needed to think about it and he would get back to me. 521 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,000 Well, what happened next? 522 00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:16,860 He never called. 523 00:28:18,860 --> 00:28:20,780 I sent a follow-up text, nothing. 524 00:28:21,740 --> 00:28:26,660 Eventually, I got tired of waiting, and I knew I needed his signature on the 525 00:28:26,660 --> 00:28:30,860 consent form, so I brought that paperwork to his apartment that night. 526 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:38,420 And I told him that... after everything he put me through, after every betrayal, 527 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,240 refusing to let me use our embryos would be an unforgivable cruelty. 528 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:44,780 What did he say? 529 00:28:45,260 --> 00:28:49,600 He said that sharing frozen embryos was an untenable entanglement. 530 00:28:52,460 --> 00:28:54,580 A drama that he wanted to be free of. 531 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,560 Like my cancer was a drama he wanted to be free of. 532 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,520 And he just, he was yelling at me. 533 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,740 And he was saying that he was just sick of dealing with me. 534 00:29:04,940 --> 00:29:07,600 That he'd just have our embryos destroyed immediately. 535 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,920 Destroyed. As my babies. 536 00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:17,290 I couldn't let that happen. 537 00:29:20,530 --> 00:29:21,570 Thank you, Caroline. 538 00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:23,870 Nothing further? 539 00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:30,170 Sounds like a very upsetting conversation. 540 00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:31,710 Yes, it was. 541 00:29:31,790 --> 00:29:36,150 And to clarify for the jury, at the end of that conversation, you lifted a 14 542 00:29:36,150 --> 00:29:39,070 -pound marble statue and you smashed his face in? 543 00:29:39,910 --> 00:29:41,050 I had no choice. 544 00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:46,940 Uh, Ms. Sanders, by law... Defense of others requires that the others in 545 00:29:46,940 --> 00:29:49,400 question be in imminent danger. 546 00:29:49,740 --> 00:29:55,420 You bludgeoned Andy Carson to death at 9.14 p.m., yes? Yeah. But the facility 547 00:29:55,420 --> 00:30:00,360 in Pennsylvania where your embryos were stored closed at 5 p.m. Your fertility 548 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,440 clinic closed at 5.30. How could Andy have possibly done anything to the 549 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,300 embryos that night? He told me that all he had to do was send an email. 550 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,460 I don't know what he set up legally. I don't know what that means, how that 551 00:30:12,460 --> 00:30:16,800 works. Ms. Sanders, in your testimony, you just referred to the embryos as your 552 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,340 babies. To clarify, they were frozen cells over which you had freely granted 553 00:30:22,340 --> 00:30:26,200 legal decision-making rights to your husband. I didn't know. When I signed 554 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,480 the paperwork, it was just a formality. Like, I didn't even read the fine print. 555 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,440 You also mentioned in your testimony your lifelong dream. 556 00:30:34,060 --> 00:30:38,200 Don't those embryos merely represent your own deep hope for motherhood? It is 557 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,260 a dream that, in effect, you were willing to kill for. 558 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:42,940 Objection. Argumentative. 559 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,540 Sustained. They are not a dream, Mr. Price. They are real. They are my 560 00:30:47,540 --> 00:30:49,500 babies. I am pregnant. 561 00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:52,460 I am pregnant. 562 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:54,320 Right now. 563 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,560 With twins. 564 00:30:56,300 --> 00:30:58,760 Um, Your Honor, move to strike. 565 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,540 I'll see everyone in my chambers. 566 00:31:06,830 --> 00:31:11,830 Your Honor, this is a calculated stunt designed to elicit sympathy from the 567 00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:15,170 jury. It's a clear ploy for jury nullification. 568 00:31:15,470 --> 00:31:16,970 No, this is my client's life. 569 00:31:17,270 --> 00:31:20,870 And implanting those embryos while she was out on bail was her full legal 570 00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:24,230 right. They belonged entirely to her once Andy Carson died. 571 00:31:24,430 --> 00:31:27,570 You mean once she murdered him. Mr. Price, we're far from a verdict. 572 00:31:27,810 --> 00:31:29,490 Request this be struck from the record. 573 00:31:29,690 --> 00:31:32,530 Her factual statement about her present medical condition? 574 00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:36,660 We're silencing women from speaking about pregnancy now? And request the 575 00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:40,140 jury be charged they cannot consider sympathy for the defendant, that they 576 00:31:40,140 --> 00:31:43,400 are only permitted to apply facts to the law. 577 00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:47,160 I'm not going to strike the testimony, but I will instruct the jury not to 578 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,900 factor sympathy into their deliberations. 579 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,500 And, Ms. Rowland, I caution you against any further stunts like this. 580 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:56,800 Understood. 581 00:31:57,820 --> 00:31:58,820 After you. 582 00:32:01,790 --> 00:32:04,650 Jury instructions aside, you have a pregnant defendant. 583 00:32:05,650 --> 00:32:09,450 And I don't see anyone being very eager to send her away for 15 to life and 584 00:32:09,450 --> 00:32:11,410 dooming those babies to the foster system. 585 00:32:12,510 --> 00:32:14,030 I say we offer a deal. 586 00:32:14,790 --> 00:32:16,270 For various reasons. 587 00:32:17,170 --> 00:32:18,170 Meaning what? 588 00:32:18,230 --> 00:32:21,150 Well, if we lose, we'd be setting a pretty dangerous precedent. 589 00:32:21,710 --> 00:32:24,190 Well, I'm not convinced they'd even consider a deal. 590 00:32:24,390 --> 00:32:26,590 They could have argued EED for a reduced sentence. 591 00:32:26,810 --> 00:32:28,330 Probably would have gotten it, but they didn't. 592 00:32:29,550 --> 00:32:35,290 It's all or nothing. Her whole defense hinges on her sacred belief of seeing 593 00:32:35,290 --> 00:32:38,070 these embryos as lives, right? She's Catholic. 594 00:32:38,270 --> 00:32:41,430 Said she thought he was going to kill her babies. It's a sham. 595 00:32:41,630 --> 00:32:42,970 If it's a sham, good. 596 00:32:44,130 --> 00:32:47,590 You just have to find something to discredit her made-up faith narrative. 597 00:32:54,250 --> 00:32:55,970 What are we looking for here, Nolan? 598 00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:57,290 A picture of her? 599 00:32:57,850 --> 00:32:59,570 Burning a cross, shredding a Bible? 600 00:32:59,850 --> 00:33:02,630 She played Abigail in The Crucible at college. 601 00:33:03,150 --> 00:33:05,370 At least we're getting warmer. 602 00:33:06,750 --> 00:33:07,750 Wait. 603 00:33:10,670 --> 00:33:11,770 What is this? 604 00:33:12,530 --> 00:33:14,410 Allies for Women's Rights? 605 00:33:17,250 --> 00:33:19,050 A reproductive rights club. 606 00:33:19,470 --> 00:33:24,370 It doesn't sound like a young Catholic's most likely extracurricular activity. 607 00:33:30,190 --> 00:33:31,190 I'll check it out. 608 00:33:35,410 --> 00:33:39,370 I've only seen her a couple of times since grad school, but yeah, we lived 609 00:33:39,370 --> 00:33:40,490 together for two years. 610 00:33:40,690 --> 00:33:42,530 We were both studying anthropology. 611 00:33:43,150 --> 00:33:47,310 And Caroline was into a ton of liberal causes, including clinic defense. 612 00:33:47,670 --> 00:33:48,670 We did a lot together. 613 00:33:49,570 --> 00:33:51,410 She wasn't a Catholic back then? 614 00:33:51,690 --> 00:33:56,810 I think her family was. Bank money, Sunday church goers. But Caroline didn't 615 00:33:56,810 --> 00:33:57,810 take any of that seriously. 616 00:33:58,890 --> 00:34:00,430 Not until the summer after graduation. 617 00:34:02,090 --> 00:34:04,450 Then what? She just started going to church? 618 00:34:04,790 --> 00:34:09,130 Then she got super into church. Went to mass every Sunday. Gold cross on her 619 00:34:09,130 --> 00:34:11,550 neck. Refused to do clinic defense. 620 00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:13,630 Any idea why? 621 00:34:15,850 --> 00:34:22,750 I would never say this, except... I read about her case, and 622 00:34:22,750 --> 00:34:24,929 I know how this could affect the pro-choice movement. 623 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:37,520 You okay? 624 00:34:39,260 --> 00:34:42,940 Pretty sure Caroline Sanders had an abortion right after grad school. 625 00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:45,900 What? 626 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,000 So much for being a devout Catholic. 627 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:55,780 But it doesn't speak to motive or to the case itself. We would never be able to 628 00:34:55,780 --> 00:34:57,139 get access to her medical records. 629 00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,520 Do we really need her records? 630 00:35:00,380 --> 00:35:01,319 What do you mean? 631 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,160 I mean, we can just go in and ask her. 632 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,140 She made religion an issue, not us, Nolan. 633 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:12,000 So, uh, attack a woman in court for getting an abortion? 634 00:35:13,060 --> 00:35:17,120 Hmm. Caroline Sanders got to lead the life she wanted to because the law 635 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,100 granted her the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. 636 00:35:21,220 --> 00:35:25,540 Maybe it traumatized her. Maybe it made her change her point of view. Maybe it 637 00:35:25,540 --> 00:35:26,540 led her to the church. 638 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,420 She got to make that choice. She does not have the right to potentially 639 00:35:30,420 --> 00:35:34,020 jeopardize other women's choices just so she can get a free walk on murder. 640 00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:39,000 One case on the New York books granting fetuses de facto personhood, the 641 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,120 floodgates open and there goes the right to an abortion. 642 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,520 No argument here, but... You really think that's gonna play with a jury 643 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:47,520 coming from a man? 644 00:35:49,460 --> 00:35:50,480 Then let me do it. 645 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,380 You created the embryos with your husband before you started chemotherapy 646 00:35:58,380 --> 00:35:59,380 and radiation. 647 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,540 Yes. Because, as you said, being a mother was your lifelong dream. 648 00:36:05,390 --> 00:36:06,630 It was. It was everything. 649 00:36:07,030 --> 00:36:12,670 And do you believe those embryos, frozen in liquid nitrogen in your doctor's 650 00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:19,270 office six days into their petri dish development, were akin to full human 651 00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:23,130 lives? You're using jargon to try to diminish their importance. Every human 652 00:36:23,130 --> 00:36:26,110 life is irreplaceable, and embryos are the beginning of human life. 653 00:36:26,450 --> 00:36:31,970 We're all God's unique creation, and my embryos were and are just waiting to 654 00:36:31,970 --> 00:36:33,490 fulfill their full human potential. 655 00:36:34,250 --> 00:36:38,530 And you couldn't allow someone to kill your unborn children. 656 00:36:38,850 --> 00:36:44,430 No, I could not. Because in your eyes, anyone who would destroy a fetus is 657 00:36:44,430 --> 00:36:45,610 essentially a murderer. 658 00:36:47,130 --> 00:36:52,830 Yes. So you had to eliminate Andy Carson because he was going to kill your 659 00:36:52,830 --> 00:36:55,750 babies. I wish it hadn't come to that, but yes. 660 00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:58,490 Carolyn, you admit to killing Andy Carson. 661 00:36:59,130 --> 00:37:02,730 I do. Prior to that, have you ever committed murder? 662 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:04,720 Objection, Your Honor. 663 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,840 Counsel's question is wildly inflammatory. 664 00:37:07,340 --> 00:37:10,820 My client has never been charged with so much as a speeding ticket before this 665 00:37:10,820 --> 00:37:14,920 case. Any suggestion of a prior bad act requires a Sandoval motion. 666 00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:18,480 Your Honor, my question is relevant to showing the defendant may be committing 667 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,300 perjury. It's essential the jury hears her answer, and I will freeze. 668 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,160 I'll allow it, but this better get relevant soon. 669 00:37:28,620 --> 00:37:32,300 Caroline, I'm going to ask you about murder in your own terms. 670 00:37:37,390 --> 00:37:38,630 Have you ever had an abortion? 671 00:37:44,330 --> 00:37:45,590 Please answer the question. 672 00:37:55,150 --> 00:37:56,910 Yes, I did. 673 00:37:59,430 --> 00:38:00,450 And it was murder. 674 00:38:01,470 --> 00:38:02,690 Nothing further, Your Honor. 675 00:38:02,990 --> 00:38:06,510 Please stop. It was the worst thing I ever did. It was okay. That's why I had 676 00:38:06,510 --> 00:38:07,510 to protect them. 677 00:38:07,930 --> 00:38:08,950 I'm sorry. 678 00:38:09,970 --> 00:38:10,970 I'm so sorry. 679 00:38:11,170 --> 00:38:12,170 I'm sorry. 680 00:38:19,290 --> 00:38:19,690 Has 681 00:38:19,690 --> 00:38:26,650 the jury 682 00:38:26,650 --> 00:38:27,650 reached a verdict? 683 00:38:29,970 --> 00:38:30,990 We have, Your Honor. 684 00:38:31,950 --> 00:38:33,130 How does the jury find? 685 00:38:35,030 --> 00:38:40,870 On the charge of murder in the second degree, we find the defendant guilty. 686 00:38:49,570 --> 00:38:56,550 Nice work. 687 00:38:57,610 --> 00:38:58,610 Thanks. 688 00:38:59,710 --> 00:39:00,930 Want to get some lunch? 689 00:39:03,540 --> 00:39:06,060 Um, sorry, I can't. I have plans. 690 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:17,840 Samantha. Hi. 691 00:39:18,060 --> 00:39:19,060 Come on back. 692 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,140 So what brings you in? 693 00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:30,660 I think I'm finally ready to get started. 694 00:39:32,330 --> 00:39:34,090 I just realized I don't have forever. 695 00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:38,750 You will make an excellent mother.