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- Subtitles by explosiveskull
- www.elsubtitle.com
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The main camp of
Auschwitz was like a small town,
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with its gossiping
and chatting.
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There was a canteen.
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There was a cinema.
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There was a sports club
of which I was a member.
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It was all fun
and entertainment,
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just like a small town.
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The special situation
at Auschwitz
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led to friendships,
of which I'm still saying today,
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I like to look back on
with joy.
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We were convinced
by our world view
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that we had been betrayed
by the entire world,
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and that there was
a great conspiracy
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of the Jews against us.
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But surely
when it comes to children,
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you must have realized that they couldn't
possibly have done anything to you.
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The children, they're not
the enemy at the moment.
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The enemy is the blood
inside them.
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A former guard
at the notorious
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Auschwitz concentration camp
has gone on trial in Germany.
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Oskar Groening is charged
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with more than 300,000 counts
of accessory to murder.
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Groening is now 93 years old.
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My children grew up
knowing our family had a secret,
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a burden.
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They would ask me why they
don't have any grandparents,
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aunts, uncles.
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If I think about
my Holocaust experience,
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those few minutes
on the ramp in Auschwitz
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were really the defining
moments in my life.
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Try to imagine that
tomorrow someone comes and tells you,
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you have to leave your home,
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your parents are taken away,
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and you don't know
if you ever see them and when.
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And eventually it's over
and you live.
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And then you find out
you're alone.
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You have no parents.
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You have no family.
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Is it over, ever?
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I first heard
about Oskar Groening
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when Thomas Walther,
who was a former judge
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and an advocate,
a lawyer in Germany,
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approached me and told me
that he would like
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to talk to me about
my experience in Auschwitz
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in connection with a trial
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that is being held
for Oskar Groening.
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I felt that, "What have I got to
do with this particular person?
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I certainly didn't know him."
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I did a considerable amount
of thinking.
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You know, first of all,
I had to decide
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this question as to whether
a 94-year-old man
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who did this terrible deed
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seventy years before
is still guilty of the crime.
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The first time
I've heard of Oskar Groening
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was from Thomas.
He tried to convince me to come
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to Germany as a witness.
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At first, my gut reaction was,
"To Germany? No way.
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Why would I go
and put myself through
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all the memories
and all the horrible feelings
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of being
a 16-year-old slave again?"
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But Thomas was persistent.
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He said, "It's not only about Oskar
Groening, and you and the past,
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it's about establishing
a precedent for the future."
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Groening is very
old, but nobody was too old
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to be killed in Auschwitz.
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If you take part in killing
as a 20-year-old man,
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then you can be prosecuted
as a 50-year-old man,
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or also as a 90-year-old man.
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Look, for a long time,
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I feel that I have
a responsibility
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as a survivor to make sure
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that this terrible event, the
Holocaust, should not be forgotten.
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This trial
is a defining moment
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in the history
of the Holocaust.
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The fact that
so many Nazi perpetrators
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went unpunished after the war...
But Thomas told me
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it was not just about me
and the past,
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it was also about setting
a precedent for the future.
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And so I felt that I must
be a witness at the trial.
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Luneburg is a tiny
city in the north of Germany.
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You got your occasional murder
and you got
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your everyday trial business,
but a trial of that size...
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Luneburg had never experienced
anything like it
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and hardly any German city
ever has.
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The trial took place
in Luneburg
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because this is where
Groening is living,
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and according to German law,
you have to be tried
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by the court that is in the
vicinity of where you live.
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So they set it up
in a community center
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where they could house
enough people,
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where they could house all these
plaintiffs and all the lawyers,
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and all the media attention,
and also have
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enough seats for public because
public was supposed to come
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and see and, you know,
follow the proceedings.
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They should pay for what
they've done. They all knew.
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For the kind of crimes
they committed
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and what they did
to the Jews,
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that should be punished.
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The little ones are hanged
and the big ones are let go.
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That's the way it is.
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To convict a 93-year-old man
doesn't make sense.
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I think he's lived
in fear of being
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caught for the past 50 years,
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and that he would
eventually be exposed.
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He was more or less forced.
He was a follower.
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And what were our fathers?
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Nobody talks about
that anymore.
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They were also followers.
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Then one would have to hold
many old judges accountable.
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Millions yelled, "Heil!" And
nobody supposedly knew anything.
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When I was a child,
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nobody talked about the war
in my surrounding.
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At school, we didn't hear
a single word about the war.
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I had to learn
when I was 16 and 17
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in some movies
or in some books
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that there was a war
that started in my country.
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Some liked to talk
about the war,
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but only what they suffered
during the war,
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or what heroes
they were during the war.
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Nobody talked
about the victims.
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And that was really
hard for us to understand
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that we had so many criminals
in our country,
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millions of them,
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and nobody explained to us
what really happened.
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Both of my parents
supported the Nazis.
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My mother just followed
her husband.
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My father was a Nazi
from the very beginning.
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He died '53,
he committed suicide.
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Uh, he was still stuck
to the old system of Nazi time.
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We have old fascists
and new fascists of today.
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One organization that helped
in the Groening trial
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was the Anti-Fascist
organization.
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As the title says,
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they fight against fascism.
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And it happened 70 years ago
in our country,
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and it happens today.
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Sieg Heil!
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There was some
disturbance from right-wing people.
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So, the lawyer,
Thomas Walther,
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called six weeks before the
Groening trial started here,
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that we can prepare ourselves
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and make a system of banners
to keep away
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the Holocaust deniers from the
survivors and their relatives.
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- Is the text ready?
- Yes, it's ready.
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There are people making
the banners as we speak.
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I'm an Anti-Fascist.
It's, uh,
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what kind of society
I want to live.
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And we have a lot of racism
here in Germany
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and lots of houses
are burning
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because racist
and fascist people
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are mobilizing against refugees,
and lots of people get killed.
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And if we know
our history, then...
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we can't do nothing now.
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So we have to act now too.
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What may be one of the last big
Holocaust trials opened today in Germany.
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Under a new legal theory
that death camp workers
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can be held accountable
for the Holocaust,
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even if they didn't murder
anyone with their own hands.
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The man being charged
admits he was at Auschwitz
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but says
he didn't kill anybody.
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He just took
the victims' money.
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This court will now decide
whether the so-called
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"Accountant of Auschwitz"
is also guilty
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as an accessory
to mass murder.
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The first day,
11 Holocaust deniers came.
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They shouted out loud
and even shared
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some papers.
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"Justice for the survivors
of Auschwitz"
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Our friends put up the banner
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to show that there will be
justice for the survivors.
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It's a very difficult
situation for the survivors
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to stand in line
for two hours.
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Especially when
they're confronted with
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fascists like Mr. Wulff
or Mrs. Haverbeck.
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In Auschwitz
there were no gassings.
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Auschwitz was not
an extermination camp.
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Also, the commander's orders,
the Reich's orders...
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We will stop the conversation.
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I told you earlier today
you could face charges.
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- Yes, but the...
- It does not matter.
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You'll be prosecuted
and forced to leave.
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I've had enough! I'm going over
there to a public proceeding.
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And I said please don't
criminalize us by talking to us.
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I want to go to the trial.
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The survivors
and their relatives
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always had protection
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against our right-wing people.
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And that was
important for us,
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and also very important
for them.
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The first day,
it was a frenzy,
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it was amazing.
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Everyone everywhere in Europe,
all the major cities.
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We started being mobbed,
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literally,
by various TV cameras
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and journalists
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who wanted to know opinions
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and where we were standing
on this issue.
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There's a lot of merits
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to have a person,
even 70 years after,
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to bring him to court.
Nobody should be able
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to get away
with crimes against humanity,
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against Jews.
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"The survivor of Auschwitz,"
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sitting in a German court,
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surrounded by German judges
and German attorneys,
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and being treated with respect.
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And that was in itself
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an interesting experience
for me.
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At the time,
I was good friends
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with Rainer Hoess,
and Rainer Hoess
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is a big advocate
against the neo-Nazis.
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I'm the grandson
of Rudolf Hoess,
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the commandant of the Auschwitz
concentration camp.
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He was responsible
for 1.1 to 1.3 million killings
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at Auschwitz.
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Hate is a powerful weapon,
and it was
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in the Second World War,
and it is today.
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The Groening trial,
it is important for our growing youth.
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In the past, we only had
the voices of the survivors,
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of the victims there.
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But nobody really listened
to the perpetrators.
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Come out.
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They won't start without me.
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Oskar, what do
you expect from the trial?
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A verdict of not guilty,
I don't know.
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- Are you innocent?
- What are you thinking?
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Mr. Groening,
don't say anything.
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We were sitting in
one section of the courtroom
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and opposite us
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this frail old man
walking with a walker
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walked in.
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I felt cold
looking at this man.
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The whole thing was
a surreal type of experience.
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That's the only way
I can describe it.
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I did feel sympathy for him.
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He looked
like a pitiful old man.
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But that all changed
the moment he sat down,
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and he looked around,
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and he put his arms like that.
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You know, I thought,
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"You are the same Nazi,
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the same person
who thought you were gods,
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and we were vermin... still."
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So all my sympathy vanished
at that point.
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Good morning.
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The trial made big headlines
because Oskar Groening
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was one of the few,
if not the first,
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Auschwitz accused who said
that he will basically
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say something in court.
251
00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:28,450
He told what really happened,
what he experienced
252
00:15:28,489 --> 00:15:30,330
during the time in Auschwitz.
253
00:15:31,250 --> 00:15:33,890
Most of them tell some lies,
254
00:15:33,929 --> 00:15:35,810
what they did during that time,
255
00:15:35,849 --> 00:15:38,489
but Mr. Groening
told the reality.
256
00:15:38,530 --> 00:15:40,890
He told the truth
about his time,
257
00:15:40,930 --> 00:15:42,449
and that was very special.
258
00:15:50,929 --> 00:15:52,730
He basically admitted
259
00:15:52,770 --> 00:15:55,130
that he collected goods,
he collected the luggage
260
00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:57,129
of the people that would be
brought to Auschwitz.
261
00:15:57,170 --> 00:16:00,130
He would skim through
the luggage for valuables.
262
00:16:00,169 --> 00:16:03,609
He was one of the very few
Nazi perpetrators that admitted
263
00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:05,929
in court that people were
plundered of their belongings
264
00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:09,289
and didn't really expect them
to be given back to them.
265
00:16:09,329 --> 00:16:12,970
So in the consequence,
everyone working there knew people
266
00:16:13,009 --> 00:16:14,610
were brought there to die.
267
00:16:35,409 --> 00:16:36,690
I think he's a symbol,
268
00:16:36,730 --> 00:16:39,850
and symbols often get
unfairly targeted.
269
00:16:39,889 --> 00:16:43,130
Had he lived
at a time or at an age
270
00:16:43,170 --> 00:16:46,769
where the real perpetrators
had been effectively punished,
271
00:16:46,809 --> 00:16:48,410
probably nobody would have
gotten to him,
272
00:16:48,450 --> 00:16:50,929
he would have been
so low down on the list.
273
00:16:50,970 --> 00:16:52,890
The real issue
is what did Germany do,
274
00:16:52,930 --> 00:16:56,249
not only during the war,
but what did it do after the war.
275
00:16:56,290 --> 00:16:59,129
And what it did after the war
is disgraceful.
276
00:17:14,089 --> 00:17:16,529
Here. "Do not bend."
277
00:17:16,569 --> 00:17:18,650
Ha! Look what I got here.
278
00:17:18,690 --> 00:17:21,530
This one do not bend,
that's fan mail.
279
00:17:21,570 --> 00:17:23,770
There's a picture in here
and I have to sign it.
280
00:17:25,090 --> 00:17:26,650
Here.
281
00:17:26,690 --> 00:17:29,090
He wants me to sign
the pictures for him.
282
00:17:29,129 --> 00:17:30,490
Ah, this is a rare one.
283
00:17:31,769 --> 00:17:34,210
I stood on the headquarters.
284
00:17:34,249 --> 00:17:35,769
Ah, that's also a rare one.
285
00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:39,889
I landed on the beaches
of Normandy.
286
00:17:39,930 --> 00:17:42,170
I was a member
of General Patton's army.
287
00:17:42,210 --> 00:17:45,649
We pursued the Germans
back across France,
288
00:17:45,690 --> 00:17:47,369
back into Germany.
289
00:17:47,409 --> 00:17:49,769
And by that time,
I was assigned
290
00:17:49,810 --> 00:17:52,530
as a war-crimes investigator.
291
00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:55,249
I believe I was the first
war-crimes investigator
292
00:17:55,290 --> 00:17:56,769
in the United States Army.
293
00:17:57,530 --> 00:18:00,569
The problem I faced
294
00:18:00,609 --> 00:18:03,130
as the chief prosecutor
at Nuremberg
295
00:18:03,170 --> 00:18:05,170
was what do I ask for?
296
00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:08,170
Here were 3000 men
297
00:18:08,209 --> 00:18:11,169
who every day went out
and murdered in cold blood
298
00:18:11,209 --> 00:18:13,089
thousands of people,
299
00:18:13,129 --> 00:18:15,490
including children shot,
one shot at a time.
300
00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:18,969
And I felt that I...
301
00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:22,970
could not possibly do justice
302
00:18:23,010 --> 00:18:26,089
to the million people
who had been killed.
303
00:18:26,130 --> 00:18:28,809
But if I could establish
a rule of law
304
00:18:28,849 --> 00:18:32,009
which could protect
humankind in the future,
305
00:18:32,050 --> 00:18:34,569
that would make this trial
more meaningful
306
00:18:34,609 --> 00:18:39,129
than whatever I would do with
these handful of murderers.
307
00:18:39,170 --> 00:18:41,609
This document,
which I haven't had in my hands
308
00:18:41,650 --> 00:18:44,849
since 1948 maybe,
309
00:18:44,889 --> 00:18:46,530
it's a list of my defendants
310
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:48,689
in the Einsatzgruppen Trial
at Nuremberg.
311
00:18:48,729 --> 00:18:51,769
And I had prepared
a list showing the names
312
00:18:51,810 --> 00:18:55,449
of the defendants,
the position they occupied. For example,
313
00:18:55,490 --> 00:18:58,810
Ohlendorf, commanding officer
of Einsatzgruppen D,
314
00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:01,369
killed 90,000.
315
00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:03,570
All of them pleaded
not guilty!
316
00:19:03,610 --> 00:19:07,809
Nobody came in and said, I did anything.
Oh, my goodness, no!
317
00:19:07,849 --> 00:19:11,849
They said this was necessary
to carry out Hitler's orders.
318
00:19:11,889 --> 00:19:14,769
And there was a war going on,
what do you want us to do?
319
00:19:14,809 --> 00:19:17,369
I had 22 defendants
selected by me
320
00:19:17,409 --> 00:19:20,689
out of 3000 mass murderers who
murdered over a million people!
321
00:19:20,730 --> 00:19:23,249
And I could prove it!
I had all their top-secret
322
00:19:23,289 --> 00:19:26,810
contemporaneous documents.
No question about the facts.
323
00:19:26,850 --> 00:19:30,129
I wanted top people,
planners,
324
00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:32,089
people who had high command,
325
00:19:32,130 --> 00:19:36,209
responsible positions.
Their specific assignment was
326
00:19:36,250 --> 00:19:38,410
to murder, in cold blood,
327
00:19:38,449 --> 00:19:41,050
every single Jewish man,
woman and child
328
00:19:41,090 --> 00:19:42,530
they could lay
their hands on.
329
00:19:43,970 --> 00:19:45,570
And I knew
330
00:19:45,609 --> 00:19:49,169
that picking 22 defendants
out of 3000 men
331
00:19:49,209 --> 00:19:51,009
is only a poor sampling
332
00:19:51,049 --> 00:19:54,569
for the ridiculous reason that
we only had 22 seats in the dock.
333
00:19:56,250 --> 00:19:58,289
Did we seek to do justice?
334
00:19:58,330 --> 00:19:59,810
Of course not.
335
00:19:59,849 --> 00:20:03,489
Because we'd still be there
trying Nazis to this day.
336
00:20:03,529 --> 00:20:06,010
So you try to make
a statement of principle.
337
00:20:06,050 --> 00:20:08,770
The principle is don't do this,
it's a crime against humanity.
338
00:20:08,809 --> 00:20:11,289
Stop doing it!
If you insist upon doing it,
339
00:20:11,330 --> 00:20:13,089
we'll try to catch you
if you're a leader
340
00:20:13,129 --> 00:20:15,369
and put you away
so you won't do it again,
341
00:20:15,409 --> 00:20:18,330
and others will be deterred
from doing it.
342
00:20:18,370 --> 00:20:20,649
And so,
when the presiding justice,
343
00:20:20,689 --> 00:20:24,049
Michael Musmanno,
opened the trial, he said...
344
00:20:24,090 --> 00:20:28,090
We're now ready to hear the
presentation by the prosecution.
345
00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:32,450
I then went on to say,
"Vengeance is not our goal..."
346
00:20:32,489 --> 00:20:35,610
...nor do we seek merely
a just retribution.
347
00:20:37,570 --> 00:20:39,569
We ask this court
348
00:20:39,610 --> 00:20:43,129
to affirm
by international penal action
349
00:20:43,170 --> 00:20:47,410
man's right to live
in peace and dignity,
350
00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:49,729
regardless of his race
or creed.
351
00:20:51,449 --> 00:20:53,329
The case we present
352
00:20:53,369 --> 00:20:56,090
is a plea of humanity...
353
00:20:56,130 --> 00:20:59,049
"...to law." Because really,
354
00:20:59,089 --> 00:21:01,369
that's what I was trying
to accomplish.
355
00:21:03,889 --> 00:21:06,049
Nuremberg
was a trial that marked
356
00:21:06,089 --> 00:21:10,569
the beginning of international
criminal law as we know it.
357
00:21:10,609 --> 00:21:13,250
Notorious Nazi criminals
tried at Nuremberg
358
00:21:13,289 --> 00:21:15,209
included Hermann Goering...
359
00:21:17,250 --> 00:21:18,369
Rudolf Hess,
360
00:21:19,729 --> 00:21:21,050
many, many others.
361
00:21:21,090 --> 00:21:24,169
But the trials themselves
were not well received
362
00:21:24,209 --> 00:21:29,129
by the German public. They were
perceived to be victor's justice.
363
00:21:29,169 --> 00:21:32,769
Nobody feels like sitting and
thinking about their crimes.
364
00:21:32,809 --> 00:21:33,969
They want to move on.
365
00:21:34,009 --> 00:21:35,490
And some of that
is legitimate.
366
00:21:35,529 --> 00:21:38,449
This is a country that has been
turned into rubble.
367
00:21:38,489 --> 00:21:42,649
And it becomes a question of
rebuilding, brick by brick.
368
00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:46,089
So the last thing people want to do is
sit around and talk about their crimes
369
00:21:46,129 --> 00:21:48,809
and their guilt and how
they devastated Europe.
370
00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:55,129
At the Hall
of Justice in Nuremberg,
371
00:21:55,170 --> 00:21:58,849
history's greatest trial
nears its fateful close.
372
00:21:58,889 --> 00:22:02,609
The outcome was most of
the defendants were convicted.
373
00:22:02,649 --> 00:22:04,729
There were a few acquittals.
374
00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:08,809
Some of the defendants were sentenced
to die, and they were executed.
375
00:22:11,650 --> 00:22:15,249
The new German government,
as it was formed,
376
00:22:15,289 --> 00:22:16,730
lobbied intensively
377
00:22:16,770 --> 00:22:19,409
to bring the trials
to an end, and lobbied
378
00:22:19,450 --> 00:22:22,009
to have people who were
convicted at Nuremberg,
379
00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:25,449
even people who were sentenced
to death at Nuremberg, released.
380
00:22:26,529 --> 00:22:27,970
And most of them were.
381
00:22:28,009 --> 00:22:31,769
After the Second World War,
the German system didn't fail
382
00:22:31,810 --> 00:22:33,449
to prosecute
Nazi war criminals,
383
00:22:33,489 --> 00:22:36,089
it deliberately decided
not to prosecute them
384
00:22:36,129 --> 00:22:39,009
because many of the judges
were Nazi war criminals.
385
00:22:39,049 --> 00:22:42,530
There is evidence
that a very high percentage
386
00:22:42,569 --> 00:22:43,529
of German judges,
387
00:22:43,569 --> 00:22:45,169
particularly
West German judges
388
00:22:45,209 --> 00:22:49,129
between 1945 and 1967
were Nazis.
389
00:22:49,169 --> 00:22:50,569
Uh, I don't say former Nazis,
390
00:22:50,609 --> 00:22:54,489
I say Nazis.
People who sympathized with the Nazis.
391
00:22:54,529 --> 00:22:58,169
The Ministry of
Justice are like 99% former Nazis.
392
00:22:58,209 --> 00:23:00,329
And they are the ones who are
393
00:23:00,369 --> 00:23:03,330
creating and defining
the new legal system.
394
00:23:03,369 --> 00:23:06,530
They were sitting in judgement
of themselves.
395
00:23:06,569 --> 00:23:09,570
And obviously, the result was
terrible, terrible injustice.
396
00:24:12,168 --> 00:24:13,769
So it's a terrible,
terrible record
397
00:24:13,809 --> 00:24:16,409
where almost nobody
is convicted.
398
00:24:16,450 --> 00:24:17,849
And again, there's
no political will for it.
399
00:24:17,889 --> 00:24:20,529
The vast majority of Germans
find these trials
400
00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:23,129
kind of cathartic and perfect
401
00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:26,330
because they show the horrors
of places like Auschwitz,
402
00:24:26,370 --> 00:24:29,569
they nail a few, you know,
bad apples to the wall,
403
00:24:29,609 --> 00:24:32,529
and the rest of them
look like innocent people
404
00:24:32,569 --> 00:24:34,850
who didn't deserve
to be punished anyway,
405
00:24:34,889 --> 00:24:37,649
because they're not really dangerous
outside of the camp setting.
406
00:24:37,689 --> 00:24:41,209
And this is where, for me,
these trials are such a disaster.
407
00:24:41,249 --> 00:24:43,129
Every country, just about,
408
00:24:43,169 --> 00:24:46,210
has difficult parts
of its past
409
00:24:46,249 --> 00:24:49,529
that it, uh, struggles to...
410
00:24:49,569 --> 00:24:51,929
to come to grips with.
411
00:24:51,970 --> 00:24:55,529
That's true in the United States
still, I would say,
412
00:24:55,569 --> 00:24:58,609
with respect to slavery
and its aftermath.
413
00:24:58,649 --> 00:25:00,689
It was certainly true
in Germany
414
00:25:00,729 --> 00:25:03,529
with respect to Nazi genocide
415
00:25:03,569 --> 00:25:05,889
and crimes against humanity.
416
00:25:05,928 --> 00:25:08,089
Imagine a population
417
00:25:08,129 --> 00:25:11,089
in which
a significant percentage
418
00:25:11,129 --> 00:25:14,089
of the fathers,
brothers, sons
419
00:25:14,129 --> 00:25:16,329
took part in these crimes.
420
00:25:16,369 --> 00:25:18,889
Later on, in ensuing decades,
421
00:25:18,929 --> 00:25:22,409
grandfathers all over Germany
had done this.
422
00:25:22,449 --> 00:25:25,249
It was very difficult
for the German public
423
00:25:25,289 --> 00:25:27,810
to accept the idea
424
00:25:27,849 --> 00:25:30,969
of large-scale prosecutions,
and I don't think there was
425
00:25:31,009 --> 00:25:33,570
great enthusiasm among
prosecutors either.
426
00:25:33,609 --> 00:25:35,009
I'd say in 1945,
427
00:25:35,049 --> 00:25:38,289
there were probably around
800,000 members of the SS.
428
00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:39,849
And that's what
we're dealing with.
429
00:25:39,889 --> 00:25:42,929
The Germans between 1947
430
00:25:42,969 --> 00:25:47,650
and up to the present investigate
over 100,000 of these people.
431
00:25:47,689 --> 00:25:51,329
Of those, they bring
about 6,200 to trial.
432
00:25:51,369 --> 00:25:54,169
Of that, the convictions
433
00:25:54,209 --> 00:25:57,089
for perpetrating murder
is 124.
434
00:25:57,129 --> 00:26:01,089
124 life sentences
of over 6,000 people tried.
435
00:26:01,129 --> 00:26:05,849
I still have nightmares about that
famous photograph of the German soldier
436
00:26:05,889 --> 00:26:07,769
shooting the mother
and her baby,
437
00:26:07,809 --> 00:26:10,489
and imagining this man lived
a full and complete life,
438
00:26:10,529 --> 00:26:12,649
and died
with his own grandchildren
439
00:26:12,689 --> 00:26:15,169
and great-grandchildren surrounding
him thinking he was a wonderful man.
440
00:26:15,208 --> 00:26:18,569
That's the legacy
of the Holocaust in Germany,
441
00:26:18,609 --> 00:26:20,808
not the few war crime trials.
442
00:26:24,369 --> 00:26:26,889
I think
what's happening now is
443
00:26:26,929 --> 00:26:29,608
that the judges
or the prosecutors
444
00:26:29,649 --> 00:26:31,849
want to make good for
445
00:26:31,889 --> 00:26:34,809
the mistakes
that were made in the past,
446
00:26:34,850 --> 00:26:37,008
like in the 1960s
and 1970s.
447
00:26:37,049 --> 00:26:39,489
And I think coming to terms
448
00:26:39,529 --> 00:26:42,009
with the past can be done
in a different way.
449
00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:45,768
It's difficult
to say what good can be done
450
00:26:45,809 --> 00:26:50,089
by punishing someone for a crime
they committed 70 years ago.
451
00:26:50,129 --> 00:26:52,449
The further question
that I think has to be raised,
452
00:26:52,488 --> 00:26:55,769
because of the time period,
is, if you punish a man
453
00:26:55,809 --> 00:27:00,249
of 93 for something
that he did when he was 23,
454
00:27:00,289 --> 00:27:03,650
are you still punishing
the person who did the crime?
455
00:27:03,689 --> 00:27:05,808
Everything about him
456
00:27:05,849 --> 00:27:09,729
in terms of what makes one
a criminal has changed.
457
00:27:09,768 --> 00:27:11,449
He had grown up in a family
458
00:27:11,490 --> 00:27:14,129
that was very nationalist,
459
00:27:14,169 --> 00:27:16,809
he absorbed the ideology
of the Nazis
460
00:27:16,849 --> 00:27:18,729
as a teenager, a young man,
461
00:27:18,769 --> 00:27:21,769
and joined the Hitler Youth,
then volunteered for the SS.
462
00:27:22,529 --> 00:27:24,168
So we're in a way
463
00:27:24,209 --> 00:27:27,529
punishing someone
for what a different person,
464
00:27:27,569 --> 00:27:29,449
a different personality,
465
00:27:29,489 --> 00:27:32,889
somebody with different
characteristics did.
466
00:27:32,929 --> 00:27:34,409
It is too little too late.
467
00:27:34,449 --> 00:27:36,569
This needed to be done
a long time ago.
468
00:27:36,609 --> 00:27:39,330
But how ridiculous is it
that they're doing it now
469
00:27:39,369 --> 00:27:41,448
when these people
are all in their 90s?
470
00:27:46,408 --> 00:27:47,569
Good afternoon.
471
00:27:47,609 --> 00:27:49,569
I'm in my 98th year.
472
00:27:49,609 --> 00:27:53,089
If I committed an illegal act,
I could expect to go to jail.
473
00:27:53,128 --> 00:27:56,489
If I committed an illegal act where
there was no statute of limitations,
474
00:27:56,529 --> 00:27:59,009
as is the case
with crimes against humanity,
475
00:27:59,049 --> 00:28:00,169
you go to jail.
476
00:28:00,209 --> 00:28:02,089
Age is no defense.
477
00:28:02,129 --> 00:28:04,089
And they have to know
that the criminal
478
00:28:04,130 --> 00:28:06,009
will be pursued
as long as necessary
479
00:28:06,050 --> 00:28:10,248
to try to bring whatever justice is
possible under the circumstances.
480
00:28:10,288 --> 00:28:13,209
How did it happen
that here he was
481
00:28:13,249 --> 00:28:15,729
in his own hometown
for 70 years,
482
00:28:15,769 --> 00:28:19,409
and nobody did
anything about it?
483
00:28:19,449 --> 00:28:21,609
All this is happening
because it's doable now.
484
00:28:23,129 --> 00:28:26,249
40 years ago, 50 years ago,
it was very far from doable.
485
00:28:26,289 --> 00:28:29,529
For many, many years,
the German judicial system
486
00:28:29,569 --> 00:28:32,249
used the wrong legal frame
487
00:28:32,289 --> 00:28:35,970
to try to digest
the crimes of the Holocaust.
488
00:28:36,009 --> 00:28:39,449
They had to prove
that the suspect
489
00:28:39,489 --> 00:28:43,329
had committed a specific crime
against a specific victim
490
00:28:43,369 --> 00:28:46,489
and had done so
motivated by racial hatred.
491
00:28:47,728 --> 00:28:50,089
And as you can imagine,
it's not easy to prove.
492
00:28:50,129 --> 00:28:52,849
If you couldn't prove
that someone had engaged
493
00:28:52,889 --> 00:28:55,368
let's say in some kind
of hands-on act of killing,
494
00:28:55,408 --> 00:28:57,809
then you simply
couldn't convict.
495
00:28:57,849 --> 00:29:01,369
Which is one of the reasons
why many, many, many guards
496
00:29:01,409 --> 00:29:04,249
who we might wish
had been convicted
497
00:29:04,289 --> 00:29:06,369
couldn't have been,
because in a sense,
498
00:29:06,409 --> 00:29:09,648
the Germans failed to create
an adequate legal idiom,
499
00:29:09,689 --> 00:29:12,249
an adequate theory
that would permit
500
00:29:12,289 --> 00:29:14,169
these guards to be convicted.
501
00:29:14,209 --> 00:29:16,488
That changed
pretty dramatically
502
00:29:16,528 --> 00:29:18,649
with Demjanjuk.
503
00:29:18,689 --> 00:29:20,368
Because of
the Demjanjuk case,
504
00:29:20,409 --> 00:29:23,129
all of a sudden,
the prosecution in Germany changed
505
00:29:23,169 --> 00:29:24,089
the rules of the game.
506
00:29:24,129 --> 00:29:25,369
Without the Demjanjuk case,
507
00:29:25,409 --> 00:29:27,208
there wouldn't have been
a Groening case.
508
00:29:27,249 --> 00:29:30,289
John Demjanjuk,
originally Ivan Demjanjuk,
509
00:29:30,329 --> 00:29:33,169
immigrated to the United
States around 1950
510
00:29:33,209 --> 00:29:35,209
claiming to be a refugee.
511
00:29:37,689 --> 00:29:38,888
Interestingly,
512
00:29:38,929 --> 00:29:42,009
on his US visa application,
513
00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:46,369
he listed as his residence
from some time in the 1930s
514
00:29:46,408 --> 00:29:48,328
to 1943
515
00:29:48,369 --> 00:29:52,209
"Sobibor, Poland."
516
00:29:52,249 --> 00:29:56,329
Sobibor is a word that should
send a chill up the spine
517
00:29:56,369 --> 00:29:58,289
of every person
on this planet.
518
00:29:59,608 --> 00:30:02,009
One normally thinks
of there having been
519
00:30:02,049 --> 00:30:04,729
six Nazi death camps,
520
00:30:04,769 --> 00:30:06,408
extermination camps.
521
00:30:06,448 --> 00:30:10,489
That is places that existed
solely to murder people.
522
00:30:10,529 --> 00:30:12,689
Those would be Majdanek,
523
00:30:12,729 --> 00:30:15,329
Sobibor, Chelmno,
524
00:30:15,368 --> 00:30:17,889
Belzec, Treblinka,
525
00:30:17,928 --> 00:30:20,610
and Auschwitz-Birkenau.
526
00:30:20,649 --> 00:30:23,490
Unfortunately, the people
processing visa applications
527
00:30:23,529 --> 00:30:26,809
for the United States in 1950
had not heard
528
00:30:26,849 --> 00:30:30,649
of Sobibor, and so the word
meant nothing to them.
529
00:30:30,689 --> 00:30:33,049
And Demjanjuk
received his visa.
530
00:30:33,090 --> 00:30:35,970
He worked in Ford
as a machinist.
531
00:30:36,009 --> 00:30:38,729
He put together, kind of,
a perfectly respectable
532
00:30:38,769 --> 00:30:41,369
mid-western life,
until around the mid '70s.
533
00:30:43,609 --> 00:30:46,088
American prosecutors
became aware
534
00:30:46,129 --> 00:30:48,329
that he had lied
on immigration forms.
535
00:30:48,369 --> 00:30:52,169
And this started an investigation
which really turned into
536
00:30:52,209 --> 00:30:55,849
probably the most convoluted
and lengthiest criminal case
537
00:30:55,889 --> 00:30:57,849
to arise
out of the Holocaust.
538
00:30:58,609 --> 00:31:00,249
When the Americans started
539
00:31:00,289 --> 00:31:02,928
investigating Demjanjuk,
they had discovered
540
00:31:02,968 --> 00:31:06,529
an ID of Demjanjuk's
that the SS had issued,
541
00:31:06,569 --> 00:31:09,329
which indicated
that he had been assigned
542
00:31:09,369 --> 00:31:11,888
to work
at the Sobibor death camp.
543
00:31:11,929 --> 00:31:15,009
But when the Americans
started interviewing,
544
00:31:15,049 --> 00:31:18,129
uh, various
death camp survivors,
545
00:31:18,169 --> 00:31:21,208
they found that a number
of survivors identified
546
00:31:21,249 --> 00:31:23,969
Demjanjuk not as a guard
at Sobibor,
547
00:31:24,009 --> 00:31:26,209
but as a guard at Treblinka.
548
00:31:29,089 --> 00:31:31,728
John Demjanjuk goes
on trial in Jerusalem,
549
00:31:31,768 --> 00:31:34,608
accused of being the Nazi
concentration camp guard
550
00:31:34,648 --> 00:31:36,329
known as Ivan the Terrible.
551
00:31:36,369 --> 00:31:40,089
It's described simply
as "Criminal Case 373,
552
00:31:40,129 --> 00:31:43,329
the State of Israel
versus Ivan Demjanjuk."
553
00:31:43,368 --> 00:31:46,168
Israel's last war-crimes trial
554
00:31:46,209 --> 00:31:48,609
convicted Adolf Eichmann,
the administrator
555
00:31:48,648 --> 00:31:51,489
of Nazi Germany's
Final Solution.
556
00:31:51,528 --> 00:31:53,008
25 years later,
557
00:31:53,049 --> 00:31:55,649
another man leaves the
same cell in Ayalon prison,
558
00:31:55,689 --> 00:31:59,409
to make the 80km trip
to a Jerusalem courtroom,
559
00:31:59,449 --> 00:32:02,888
perhaps to meet the same fate
on the gallows.
560
00:32:04,089 --> 00:32:06,649
Hello everybody.
I'm not 'Ivan the Terrible.'
561
00:32:06,689 --> 00:32:09,208
John Demjanjuk
is on trial for his life.
562
00:32:10,168 --> 00:32:11,169
How are you today?
563
00:32:11,208 --> 00:32:14,529
Good, thank you!
I'm good all the time.
564
00:32:20,609 --> 00:32:22,289
They would have shoved me
565
00:32:22,329 --> 00:32:25,009
straight alive
into a pit full of blood.
566
00:32:25,049 --> 00:32:27,448
You weren't there.
I was there!
567
00:32:27,489 --> 00:32:29,529
Ask him! Ask him!
Let him tell you!
568
00:32:29,569 --> 00:32:31,969
Let him tell you
what he would have done to me.
569
00:32:34,609 --> 00:32:35,609
Stand up, John.
570
00:32:40,048 --> 00:32:41,609
Look at me.
571
00:32:41,649 --> 00:32:42,808
Put that away!
572
00:32:42,849 --> 00:32:44,209
I wasn't there.
573
00:32:44,249 --> 00:32:46,009
Mr. Rosenberg...
574
00:32:48,168 --> 00:32:49,969
Please... sit down.
575
00:32:50,009 --> 00:32:52,968
The public is requested
to keep to its seat.
576
00:32:53,009 --> 00:32:55,649
John Demjanjuk continued
to try to convince the court
577
00:32:55,688 --> 00:32:59,489
he is not "Ivan the Terrible,"
the SS officer who helped kill
578
00:32:59,528 --> 00:33:02,408
850,000 Polish Jews.
579
00:33:03,489 --> 00:33:04,929
I am innocent,
580
00:33:04,968 --> 00:33:06,649
innocent, innocent!
581
00:33:06,689 --> 00:33:08,168
We sentence him
582
00:33:08,209 --> 00:33:11,688
for the aforementioned crimes,
the punishment of death
583
00:33:11,728 --> 00:33:14,289
as stipulated in section one
of the Nazi
584
00:33:14,329 --> 00:33:16,848
and Nazi collaborators law.
585
00:33:16,889 --> 00:33:19,848
I'm not the Ivan the Terrible!
I'm a good man!
586
00:33:19,889 --> 00:33:21,608
After he was sentenced
to death,
587
00:33:21,648 --> 00:33:23,889
there was a rather long
588
00:33:23,929 --> 00:33:26,889
and drawn out appellate phase
that happened to coincide
589
00:33:26,928 --> 00:33:28,888
with the unraveling
of the Soviet Union.
590
00:33:28,929 --> 00:33:31,368
Mr. Gorbachev,
591
00:33:31,409 --> 00:33:33,209
tear down this wall!
592
00:33:34,489 --> 00:33:37,049
As the old
Soviet Union fell apart,
593
00:33:37,089 --> 00:33:39,408
their archives opened up.
594
00:33:39,448 --> 00:33:41,049
They discovered, that in fact,
595
00:33:41,089 --> 00:33:43,009
the Israelis
had the wrong guy,
596
00:33:43,049 --> 00:33:45,049
that Demjanjuk had not been
597
00:33:45,089 --> 00:33:47,809
"Ivan the Terrible
of Treblinka."
598
00:33:47,849 --> 00:33:49,649
In fact,
"Ivan the Terrible" had been
599
00:33:49,689 --> 00:33:52,649
this entirely different
Ukrainian named Ivan Marchenko.
600
00:33:54,569 --> 00:33:55,928
It really showed you
601
00:33:55,969 --> 00:33:58,648
the limits of structuring
these trials
602
00:33:58,689 --> 00:34:01,729
around the eyewitness testimony
of survivors,
603
00:34:01,768 --> 00:34:04,089
because these survivors,
they were positive
604
00:34:04,129 --> 00:34:06,169
that Demjanjuk
was their former tormentor,
605
00:34:06,209 --> 00:34:07,809
and they were wrong.
606
00:34:09,288 --> 00:34:11,568
I miss my wife.
607
00:34:11,609 --> 00:34:13,849
I miss my family.
608
00:34:13,889 --> 00:34:15,888
I miss my grandchildren.
609
00:34:15,928 --> 00:34:17,848
I want to go home.
610
00:34:17,889 --> 00:34:21,008
As a result of this
case of mistaken identity,
611
00:34:21,049 --> 00:34:24,209
he was acquitted.
But the mistaken identity
612
00:34:24,249 --> 00:34:28,209
also indicated that he wasn't
entirely free of guilt.
613
00:34:33,849 --> 00:34:36,328
In my country,
Demjanjuk worked
614
00:34:36,368 --> 00:34:39,088
on an assembly line
for the Ford Motor Company.
615
00:34:39,128 --> 00:34:41,409
And I suspect
if you had asked Demjanjuk
616
00:34:41,448 --> 00:34:43,888
at that time,
"What do you do for a living?"
617
00:34:43,928 --> 00:34:45,728
He would have said,
618
00:34:45,768 --> 00:34:49,089
"I build cars."
Even though, I assume,
619
00:34:49,128 --> 00:34:50,849
he did one little operation,
620
00:34:50,888 --> 00:34:53,928
tightened one bolt or something.
He did not ever build
621
00:34:53,969 --> 00:34:56,089
an entire car himself.
622
00:34:56,129 --> 00:34:58,849
But that's what he did for a living.
They were building cars.
623
00:35:00,208 --> 00:35:02,168
At places like Auschwitz,
624
00:35:02,209 --> 00:35:03,729
Sobibor,
625
00:35:03,769 --> 00:35:07,289
what the SS personnel there
did for a living
626
00:35:07,329 --> 00:35:12,249
was kill innocent
human beings.
627
00:35:12,289 --> 00:35:14,329
There was nothing else
going on there.
628
00:35:15,448 --> 00:35:17,729
Today, a federal court
in Cleveland
629
00:35:17,768 --> 00:35:21,328
stripped John Demjanjuk
of his US citizenship,
630
00:35:21,368 --> 00:35:23,769
finding that he served the
Nazis during World War II
631
00:35:23,809 --> 00:35:26,489
as an armed guard
at the Sobibor death camp.
632
00:35:26,529 --> 00:35:29,769
Our efforts were inspired by
the courage of the survivors,
633
00:35:29,808 --> 00:35:31,848
who, in recounting for us
634
00:35:31,888 --> 00:35:35,048
their nightmarish experiences
of more than half a century ago,
635
00:35:35,088 --> 00:35:37,528
were willing
to reopen psychic wounds
636
00:35:37,568 --> 00:35:39,809
that of course
have never fully healed.
637
00:35:39,848 --> 00:35:43,368
What very few people know
is that after ten years
638
00:35:43,408 --> 00:35:47,408
of litigation against Demjanjuk
in the United States,
639
00:35:47,448 --> 00:35:50,128
when we had gotten courts
to revoke his citizenship
640
00:35:50,168 --> 00:35:52,328
and order him deported,
641
00:35:52,368 --> 00:35:53,808
we went
to the German government
642
00:35:53,848 --> 00:35:56,088
and asked Germany
to accept him,
643
00:35:56,129 --> 00:35:58,288
and Germany said "No."
644
00:35:58,329 --> 00:36:00,289
As Germany and other
governments of Europe
645
00:36:00,328 --> 00:36:02,808
have routinely done
in our cases.
646
00:36:02,849 --> 00:36:05,089
Uh, enormously frustrating.
647
00:36:05,128 --> 00:36:07,129
I then met Thomas Walther
648
00:36:07,169 --> 00:36:08,488
and Kirsten Goetze,
649
00:36:08,528 --> 00:36:11,929
and we brainstormed
how there might be a way
650
00:36:11,969 --> 00:36:15,329
to get Demjanjuk indicted
in Germany.
651
00:36:15,368 --> 00:36:17,689
There was
a very important connection
652
00:36:17,729 --> 00:36:20,649
to the US Office
of Special Investigations
653
00:36:20,688 --> 00:36:23,088
with Eli Rosenbaum
in Washington.
654
00:36:23,928 --> 00:36:26,928
He always told me that
655
00:36:26,969 --> 00:36:30,728
he cannot understand
why we in Germany
656
00:36:30,768 --> 00:36:34,568
do not prosecute these guards
657
00:36:34,608 --> 00:36:38,408
who are watching
that nobody can escape
658
00:36:38,448 --> 00:36:40,289
from a killing place.
659
00:36:40,328 --> 00:36:44,488
Those camps existed to
carry out crimes against humanity,
660
00:36:44,529 --> 00:36:46,489
crimes of persecution.
661
00:36:46,529 --> 00:36:48,608
I gave him the example.
I said,
662
00:36:48,648 --> 00:36:50,528
"Thomas, look, we're sitting
here in my office.
663
00:36:50,568 --> 00:36:54,368
If you decide to chase me
around my office
664
00:36:54,408 --> 00:36:56,368
with a knife to kill me,
665
00:36:56,408 --> 00:36:59,128
and you have a cohort
who is outside the office
666
00:36:59,168 --> 00:37:02,408
holding the door closed,
so that I cannot escape,
667
00:37:02,448 --> 00:37:06,408
under those circumstances,
both you and your cohort
668
00:37:06,448 --> 00:37:08,529
will be found guilty
in my country
669
00:37:08,569 --> 00:37:11,009
of first-degree murder."
And I said,
670
00:37:11,048 --> 00:37:15,608
"I cannot imagine that the law
is any different in Germany."
671
00:37:15,649 --> 00:37:19,408
These camps had no
other reason than to kill people.
672
00:37:19,448 --> 00:37:22,689
There is no question
that this person
673
00:37:22,728 --> 00:37:26,888
is responsible and part
of the whole killing process.
674
00:37:26,928 --> 00:37:28,648
The guards in death camps
675
00:37:28,689 --> 00:37:30,968
like Auschwitz-Birkenau,
Sobibor,
676
00:37:31,008 --> 00:37:33,888
they knew what was going
on there, and they made sure
677
00:37:33,928 --> 00:37:36,089
that the victims
did not escape.
678
00:37:36,129 --> 00:37:39,289
Ultimately, Thomas and Kirsten
did the legal research
679
00:37:39,329 --> 00:37:42,448
and ascertained
that there was case law,
680
00:37:42,488 --> 00:37:43,888
and brought the Demjanjuk case.
681
00:37:54,209 --> 00:37:57,848
This is a very
wonderful day for justice today.
682
00:37:57,888 --> 00:38:01,329
The fact that this person,
who was an active participant
683
00:38:01,369 --> 00:38:03,688
in the mass murder
of 29,000 Jews
684
00:38:03,728 --> 00:38:06,808
in the Sobibor death camp,
is finally going
685
00:38:06,849 --> 00:38:10,009
to stand trial for those
crimes is extremely important.
686
00:38:10,049 --> 00:38:13,048
We are extremely,
extremely pleased, and I think
687
00:38:13,088 --> 00:38:15,649
that the American
and German authorities
688
00:38:15,688 --> 00:38:17,488
deserve a tremendous amount
of credit
689
00:38:17,529 --> 00:38:19,368
for their perseverance
in this case.
690
00:38:42,209 --> 00:38:44,648
Um, target. I'm on
the wrong side of the car.
691
00:38:47,608 --> 00:38:49,048
- He's walking.
- Yeah.
692
00:38:58,049 --> 00:38:59,809
It looks rather innocent,
693
00:38:59,848 --> 00:39:02,529
an elderly man walking
and talking,
694
00:39:02,568 --> 00:39:05,208
but that man
is John Demjanjuk,
695
00:39:05,249 --> 00:39:07,128
the alleged Nazi
death camp guard,
696
00:39:07,169 --> 00:39:09,529
who claims he's too ill
and too frail
697
00:39:09,569 --> 00:39:12,249
to be deported to Europe
to go on trial.
698
00:39:12,289 --> 00:39:14,888
Federal prosecutors
submitted these videos
699
00:39:14,928 --> 00:39:17,089
to the US Circuit
Court of Appeals.
700
00:39:17,128 --> 00:39:19,929
They were taken a few days
before he was detained.
701
00:39:26,649 --> 00:39:29,328
One of the things the
Demjanjuk tried to do in Munich,
702
00:39:29,368 --> 00:39:31,329
is he tried to basically
703
00:39:31,368 --> 00:39:33,608
create the impression
of being incompetent.
704
00:39:39,248 --> 00:39:40,688
He actually engaged
705
00:39:40,728 --> 00:39:43,129
in a rather dramatic
theatrical performance
706
00:39:43,169 --> 00:39:45,049
in which he tried
to convince everyone
707
00:39:45,089 --> 00:39:46,928
that he was kind of
on death's door.
708
00:39:46,969 --> 00:39:48,568
Oh!
709
00:39:48,609 --> 00:39:52,408
Oy, oy, oy, oy,
oy, oy, oy!
710
00:39:52,449 --> 00:39:54,689
First of all, the problem
is that Demjanjuk himself,
711
00:39:54,728 --> 00:39:57,128
I think, put on a great act
today, and he's gonna
712
00:39:57,168 --> 00:40:00,008
do everything possible
to try and create
713
00:40:00,048 --> 00:40:03,488
an impression that he's simply
incapable of standing trial.
714
00:40:03,527 --> 00:40:05,768
If you've seen the
footage of the Demjanjuk trial,
715
00:40:05,808 --> 00:40:07,448
he looked like
a total zombie,
716
00:40:07,488 --> 00:40:09,368
like he didn't have a clue
what was going on.
717
00:40:09,408 --> 00:40:11,528
And what most people don't
know is that the minute
718
00:40:11,568 --> 00:40:13,448
the trial sessions ended every
day, he was up and around,
719
00:40:13,488 --> 00:40:15,368
walking around,
joking around with the people.
720
00:40:15,408 --> 00:40:17,288
It has been a common ruse
in Nazi cases
721
00:40:17,328 --> 00:40:21,288
for decades to claim
either a medical incapacity
722
00:40:21,328 --> 00:40:23,528
or a mental health incapacity
723
00:40:23,568 --> 00:40:25,728
to continue with the trial.
724
00:40:27,688 --> 00:40:29,608
Some courts have fallen
for those ruses,
725
00:40:29,648 --> 00:40:31,568
others have not.
726
00:40:32,968 --> 00:40:35,969
But it is a very,
very common ploy.
727
00:40:36,008 --> 00:40:38,048
I always say that
if there was an Oscar given
728
00:40:38,087 --> 00:40:41,008
for the best performance
by a Nazi war criminal,
729
00:40:41,048 --> 00:40:43,288
Demjanjuk would have
gotten it for 2010.
730
00:40:43,329 --> 00:40:46,048
Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!
731
00:40:46,088 --> 00:40:48,409
Oh!
732
00:40:49,648 --> 00:40:51,848
We now know that
in fact he was
733
00:40:51,888 --> 00:40:53,768
rather healthy at the time,
and he did
734
00:40:53,808 --> 00:40:55,888
successfully survive
his trial.
735
00:40:55,928 --> 00:40:58,168
In a verdict
decades in the making,
736
00:40:58,208 --> 00:41:01,608
a German court has found
91-year-old John Demjanjuk
737
00:41:01,648 --> 00:41:03,649
guilty of accessory to murder
738
00:41:03,688 --> 00:41:05,608
in the case
of more than 28,000 Jews
739
00:41:05,648 --> 00:41:07,568
in Nazi-occupied Poland.
740
00:41:07,609 --> 00:41:10,727
John Demjanjuk
is just a scapegoat
741
00:41:10,768 --> 00:41:12,528
for the Germans.
742
00:41:12,568 --> 00:41:16,648
He has to pay for all the
mistakes they made in the past,
743
00:41:16,688 --> 00:41:18,648
and that's not justice.
744
00:41:18,688 --> 00:41:22,168
What was very important
about the trial in Germany
745
00:41:22,208 --> 00:41:25,448
was in a way
it was the exact opposite
746
00:41:25,488 --> 00:41:27,328
of the Ivan the Terrible trial.
747
00:41:27,368 --> 00:41:29,048
Ivan the Terrible
trial focused
748
00:41:29,088 --> 00:41:31,888
on the particular pathologies
749
00:41:31,928 --> 00:41:34,408
of a very brutal guard.
750
00:41:34,448 --> 00:41:36,568
The trial in Munich
751
00:41:36,608 --> 00:41:39,448
was really the first trial
to come along and say,
752
00:41:39,488 --> 00:41:41,728
"We don't really care
if you were cruel or not.
753
00:41:41,768 --> 00:41:45,208
Your job description
was basically facilitating
754
00:41:45,248 --> 00:41:48,208
an act of extermination,
and that's why we're going
755
00:41:48,248 --> 00:41:50,968
to hold you guilty
in a court of law."
756
00:41:51,008 --> 00:41:54,728
You were an accessory to murder
because, by definition,
757
00:41:54,768 --> 00:41:57,328
that was
your job description.
758
00:41:57,368 --> 00:42:00,968
The following year,
Demjanjuk died in Germany
759
00:42:01,008 --> 00:42:03,329
while his case was on appeal.
760
00:42:03,368 --> 00:42:06,287
But the precedent
of court agreeing
761
00:42:06,328 --> 00:42:08,728
that someone who served
as a guard
762
00:42:08,769 --> 00:42:10,888
at a death camp
shared complicity
763
00:42:10,928 --> 00:42:12,889
in the killings
that took part there
764
00:42:12,929 --> 00:42:15,528
inspired, shall we say,
German prosecutors
765
00:42:15,568 --> 00:42:18,208
to prosecute other guards.
766
00:42:18,248 --> 00:42:20,728
Prosecutors in
Germany are reopening hundreds
767
00:42:20,768 --> 00:42:23,288
of investigations
into former Nazis.
768
00:42:23,329 --> 00:42:26,369
So why has it taken so long
to bring these people to trial?
769
00:42:26,408 --> 00:42:28,367
This is the uniqueness
and significance
770
00:42:28,408 --> 00:42:30,169
of the Demjanjuk conviction.
771
00:42:30,209 --> 00:42:34,009
Basically what the court in Munich
said in May was, if you served
772
00:42:34,049 --> 00:42:37,208
as an armed SS guard
at a pure death camp,
773
00:42:37,248 --> 00:42:40,128
you're automatically guilty
of accessory to murder.
774
00:42:40,167 --> 00:42:43,288
This gave the German
prosecution a new lease on life.
775
00:42:43,328 --> 00:42:46,088
Now the question then was,
how many of these people are alive?
776
00:42:52,408 --> 00:42:54,567
After the Demjanjuk verdict,
777
00:42:54,608 --> 00:42:57,447
the central office
here started
778
00:42:57,488 --> 00:42:59,568
to look again
779
00:42:59,608 --> 00:43:01,768
at all the six death camps.
780
00:43:03,688 --> 00:43:06,448
We put together
all these puzzle pieces
781
00:43:06,488 --> 00:43:08,128
in order to get an image
782
00:43:08,168 --> 00:43:10,688
who was involved in a crime.
783
00:43:10,727 --> 00:43:12,888
Yeah. There it is,
right here.
784
00:43:15,608 --> 00:43:19,169
Germany is making
up for it with what it's got.
785
00:43:19,208 --> 00:43:21,968
There's slim pickings these
days for Nazi war criminals.
786
00:43:22,008 --> 00:43:25,928
Many of them are dead.
And many of the survivors are dead.
787
00:43:25,967 --> 00:43:27,848
It's not as if the German
government has its choice
788
00:43:27,887 --> 00:43:30,408
of a wide variety
of players to go after.
789
00:43:31,608 --> 00:43:34,369
Now I got a tip
from Simon Wiesenthal
790
00:43:34,408 --> 00:43:36,768
in the early 1980s.
791
00:43:36,807 --> 00:43:41,848
Mr. Wiesenthal told me that there
was a Nazi named Haralds Puntulis,
792
00:43:41,888 --> 00:43:43,768
who was living in Canada,
793
00:43:43,808 --> 00:43:45,889
but his whereabouts
were unknown.
794
00:43:45,928 --> 00:43:48,688
And Puntulis took part
in the massacre
795
00:43:48,728 --> 00:43:51,328
of more than 5,000
Jews and Roma
796
00:43:51,368 --> 00:43:54,728
in a village in Latvia.
He wasn't hard to find.
797
00:43:56,007 --> 00:43:57,088
I found him,
798
00:43:57,128 --> 00:43:59,248
gardening in Willowdale,
799
00:43:59,288 --> 00:44:01,249
which ironically enough,
800
00:44:01,288 --> 00:44:04,248
has a great many Jewish people
who live there.
801
00:44:04,289 --> 00:44:06,128
But, just before
the authorities could act,
802
00:44:06,168 --> 00:44:09,528
and before my article
exposing him came out,
803
00:44:09,568 --> 00:44:11,087
Puntulis died.
804
00:44:11,128 --> 00:44:13,967
There is this real rush then
to find people, anyone.
805
00:44:14,008 --> 00:44:17,528
But as you can imagine,
they're all extraordinarily old.
806
00:44:19,768 --> 00:44:23,248
There are very few of them who
are still fit to stand trial.
807
00:44:23,288 --> 00:44:26,048
So there is this feeling
that now,
808
00:44:26,088 --> 00:44:29,528
before it's too late,
we need to do everything we can
809
00:44:29,568 --> 00:44:31,608
to bring every last
Nazi to trial.
810
00:44:35,408 --> 00:44:37,248
As the long list of people
811
00:44:37,287 --> 00:44:39,809
that they believed were Nazi
war criminals became smaller,
812
00:44:39,848 --> 00:44:42,848
an accountant from Auschwitz
was singled out.
813
00:44:42,887 --> 00:44:45,208
He was put under the spotlight
because of an interview
814
00:44:45,248 --> 00:44:48,008
that he did for the BBC,
where he openly admitted
815
00:44:48,048 --> 00:44:49,808
and described in detail
816
00:44:49,848 --> 00:44:53,888
the crimes that were being
committed in Auschwitz.
817
00:44:53,928 --> 00:44:57,368
You were part of the
largest killing factory in history.
818
00:44:57,408 --> 00:44:58,728
You were working there.
819
00:44:58,768 --> 00:45:00,528
You personally contributed
820
00:45:00,568 --> 00:45:03,608
to the killing of around
one million people.
821
00:45:03,649 --> 00:45:05,729
Don't you think you should
have stood trial?
822
00:45:08,368 --> 00:45:09,807
No, I don't think so.
823
00:45:13,088 --> 00:45:15,928
You imply with your question
that just being a member
824
00:45:15,968 --> 00:45:18,488
of a large group of people
who lived in a garrison
825
00:45:18,528 --> 00:45:20,768
where the destruction
of the Jews took place
826
00:45:20,808 --> 00:45:23,048
is enough to make you
a criminal.
827
00:45:28,208 --> 00:45:31,047
He was an accomplice.
He knew what he was doing.
828
00:45:31,088 --> 00:45:34,208
But what he didn't know was
that the interview with the BBC
829
00:45:34,248 --> 00:45:36,208
would ultimately spark
the investigation,
830
00:45:36,248 --> 00:45:38,567
because at that time,
before Demjanjuk,
831
00:45:38,607 --> 00:45:41,648
guards were not seen
as being complicit.
832
00:45:41,688 --> 00:45:43,687
And for decades,
he lived peacefully
833
00:45:43,728 --> 00:45:46,127
in a small town
outside of Luneburg.
834
00:45:46,168 --> 00:45:48,368
They got Groening.
They went after him.
835
00:45:53,729 --> 00:45:54,728
No.
836
00:45:56,609 --> 00:45:58,887
Carla has prepared my lunch.
837
00:45:58,928 --> 00:46:02,128
So we'll let her prepare it
when she's ready to serve it.
838
00:46:06,048 --> 00:46:09,408
- Okay. You gonna eat?
- Hi, Benji.
839
00:46:09,447 --> 00:46:12,327
- Good morning!
- Hi, Benji.
840
00:46:12,368 --> 00:46:15,768
There are many trials being carried on
now, which are remarkable.
841
00:46:15,809 --> 00:46:20,208
Old people who have managed to
evade justice for many years.
842
00:46:20,248 --> 00:46:22,488
It doesn't make
a very big difference
843
00:46:22,529 --> 00:46:26,208
whether they spend
some time in jail or not.
844
00:46:26,248 --> 00:46:28,928
On the principle,
it does make a difference.
845
00:46:28,968 --> 00:46:31,169
They should know that they're
not going to get away with it.
846
00:46:31,208 --> 00:46:34,488
We'll pursue them wherever
they are as long as necessary
847
00:46:34,528 --> 00:46:37,167
and try to have them
explain their actions.
848
00:46:41,048 --> 00:46:43,207
If you know that he was
a guard in a camp
849
00:46:43,248 --> 00:46:45,168
which killed your father,
your mother, your grandfather,
850
00:46:45,208 --> 00:46:48,048
don't you have to have
some consideration
851
00:46:48,088 --> 00:46:50,607
for the victims,
rather than the perpetrator?
852
00:46:54,209 --> 00:46:57,008
Our argument about the case
853
00:46:57,048 --> 00:47:00,848
was that the things that
Mr. Groening did in Auschwitz
854
00:47:00,888 --> 00:47:04,007
actually were not
some kind of support
855
00:47:04,047 --> 00:47:06,087
of killing the people
who had been
856
00:47:06,128 --> 00:47:08,888
transported to Auschwitz
at that time.
857
00:47:08,928 --> 00:47:11,008
Of course he supported
the system,
858
00:47:11,047 --> 00:47:12,848
but not the killing itself.
859
00:47:12,888 --> 00:47:15,208
Many SS members
here in Germany,
860
00:47:15,248 --> 00:47:17,647
in former trials,
they often said,
861
00:47:17,688 --> 00:47:18,888
"Well, I didn't kill them!
862
00:47:18,928 --> 00:47:21,447
They were killed by a...
by a machine."
863
00:47:21,487 --> 00:47:25,127
His position as a subordinate
was quite clear.
864
00:47:25,167 --> 00:47:26,768
He was not
a high ranking officer.
865
00:47:26,808 --> 00:47:30,288
He was not in a sort
of position to give orders.
866
00:47:30,328 --> 00:47:34,128
This is the question.
Who is responsible?
867
00:47:37,088 --> 00:47:38,968
Groening was a cog
in the wheel,
868
00:47:39,008 --> 00:47:43,247
but the wheel couldn't
have turned without that cog.
869
00:47:43,287 --> 00:47:45,408
Individual killing
is not a requisite.
870
00:47:45,447 --> 00:47:48,888
There is no evidence that
Hitler personally killed anybody
871
00:47:48,929 --> 00:47:51,448
at Auschwitz, or any Jew.
872
00:47:51,488 --> 00:47:53,688
Everybody who was aware
873
00:47:53,729 --> 00:47:56,368
of what was going on
at Auschwitz
874
00:47:56,408 --> 00:47:58,767
is both morally
and legally guilty.
875
00:47:58,808 --> 00:48:01,288
The chef,
less than the person
876
00:48:01,328 --> 00:48:04,248
who poured the gas
into the chambers.
877
00:48:04,288 --> 00:48:07,407
The accountant,
less than the guard.
878
00:48:07,448 --> 00:48:09,568
But he made
choices throughout
879
00:48:09,607 --> 00:48:11,407
and he is responsible
for his choices.
880
00:48:11,448 --> 00:48:13,408
Groening was not just
an accountant.
881
00:48:13,447 --> 00:48:15,887
He's known as the
"Bookkeeper of Auschwitz"
882
00:48:15,927 --> 00:48:17,967
and the "Bookkeeper
of Auschwitz" creates,
883
00:48:18,008 --> 00:48:19,887
I think, a somewhat
misleading image.
884
00:48:19,928 --> 00:48:23,047
It suggests that he could
have been just squirrelled away
885
00:48:23,088 --> 00:48:26,208
in some little shack
adding up numbers.
886
00:48:26,248 --> 00:48:32,008
He came to Auschwitz
specifically as a bookkeeper.
887
00:48:32,048 --> 00:48:35,008
But it took much more
than bookkeeping.
888
00:48:35,048 --> 00:48:36,808
He also had to look
after the system.
889
00:48:36,848 --> 00:48:39,488
And he was seen
on the ramp.
890
00:48:39,527 --> 00:48:42,208
This is the ramp where
it's kind of in the collective
891
00:48:42,247 --> 00:48:45,608
or popular imagination from
films like Schindler's List.
892
00:48:45,647 --> 00:48:49,208
This is when the SS
are sorting people out,
893
00:48:49,248 --> 00:48:52,248
saying these people are being
exterminated immediately,
894
00:48:52,288 --> 00:48:54,848
and this small group
is actually entering
895
00:48:54,887 --> 00:48:58,008
the prison population
of the camp.
896
00:48:58,048 --> 00:49:00,047
If you look at something
like Auschwitz,
897
00:49:00,087 --> 00:49:02,488
why weren't more
of the guards prosecuted?
898
00:49:02,528 --> 00:49:05,927
Well, Auschwitz
was a hybrid camp.
899
00:49:05,967 --> 00:49:08,768
It was part
slave labor camp,
900
00:49:08,807 --> 00:49:11,088
and it was part death camp.
901
00:49:11,128 --> 00:49:13,208
If these guards
were just associated
902
00:49:13,248 --> 00:49:15,168
with the slave labor aspect,
903
00:49:15,208 --> 00:49:17,767
then you wouldn't
necessarily know
904
00:49:17,808 --> 00:49:21,167
that they actually were
involved with the killing.
905
00:49:21,207 --> 00:49:23,448
And if you didn't know they
were involved with the killing,
906
00:49:23,488 --> 00:49:27,288
you couldn't prosecute them
for anything under German law.
907
00:49:27,328 --> 00:49:28,847
In the case of Groening,
908
00:49:28,887 --> 00:49:33,048
we know that Groening was
at Auschwitz for a long time.
909
00:49:33,088 --> 00:49:34,688
He was there for two years.
910
00:49:34,727 --> 00:49:36,368
But if you look
at the indictment,
911
00:49:36,408 --> 00:49:39,928
the indictment focuses only
on a three-month period.
912
00:49:39,968 --> 00:49:41,487
During this
three-month period,
913
00:49:41,527 --> 00:49:44,647
that's when the trains
were arriving
914
00:49:44,688 --> 00:49:49,528
with these hundreds of
thousands of Jews from Hungary.
915
00:49:49,568 --> 00:49:51,328
In this case,
916
00:49:51,367 --> 00:49:55,367
the Hungarian Action
is the crime.
917
00:49:55,408 --> 00:49:57,687
From the 16th of May
918
00:49:57,728 --> 00:50:00,608
until the 11th of July,
919
00:50:00,647 --> 00:50:04,847
there has been killed
300,000 Jews.
920
00:50:04,888 --> 00:50:09,008
If we can prove
that Groening has been
921
00:50:09,048 --> 00:50:13,368
on one day in this time
on the ramp,
922
00:50:13,408 --> 00:50:16,808
then he is guilty
of the whole crime.
923
00:50:18,407 --> 00:50:21,248
The witnesses arrived
on a certain day
924
00:50:21,287 --> 00:50:25,248
at a certain hour during this
"Hungarian Action."
925
00:50:25,288 --> 00:50:29,008
Important is that
the witnesses talk about
926
00:50:29,048 --> 00:50:31,648
what happened
with their families,
927
00:50:31,687 --> 00:50:34,368
that they speak
about their sadness,
928
00:50:34,407 --> 00:50:36,247
they speak about the loss.
929
00:50:37,767 --> 00:50:41,807
Tomorrow, Bill,
you have to testify.
930
00:50:41,847 --> 00:50:44,487
Speak slowly, but fluently.
931
00:50:44,528 --> 00:50:48,007
And don't think about
the faces of the judges.
932
00:50:48,047 --> 00:50:50,647
This is a special thing
as far as I'm concerned.
933
00:50:50,688 --> 00:50:54,567
It's a very important,
emotional thing.
934
00:50:54,607 --> 00:50:57,088
The criminal department
of justice
935
00:50:57,128 --> 00:51:00,008
has made a lot of faults,
936
00:51:00,047 --> 00:51:01,607
very heavy faults.
937
00:51:01,648 --> 00:51:04,367
And I invite
the German justice system
938
00:51:04,408 --> 00:51:06,368
to come back
in a better way.
939
00:51:10,968 --> 00:51:14,087
The time came for us
to testify at the trial.
940
00:51:15,607 --> 00:51:19,208
I sat down in front
of the presiding judge.
941
00:51:19,247 --> 00:51:21,568
Thomas Walther
sat next to me,
942
00:51:21,607 --> 00:51:25,047
and then the judge asked me
to describe what happened
943
00:51:25,087 --> 00:51:27,527
when I arrived
to Auschwitz-Birkenau.
944
00:51:30,688 --> 00:51:32,248
Then train stopped.
945
00:51:32,288 --> 00:51:35,087
After a while, all of a sudden,
the doors were opened.
946
00:51:35,128 --> 00:51:37,448
"Everybody out!
Get out of the boxcar!
947
00:51:37,487 --> 00:51:39,887
Leave your parcels in there!
You'll get them later."
948
00:51:40,847 --> 00:51:41,888
It was a space
949
00:51:41,927 --> 00:51:45,008
filled with people
running around,
950
00:51:45,048 --> 00:51:47,287
some in striped pajamas
951
00:51:47,328 --> 00:51:50,648
and a lot of soldiers
with rifles.
952
00:51:50,688 --> 00:51:53,927
Dogs on leash that were
straining against the leash
953
00:51:53,967 --> 00:51:55,608
and barking at us.
954
00:51:55,648 --> 00:51:58,647
The people pouring out
from the wagons,
955
00:51:58,687 --> 00:52:00,567
thousands of people,
956
00:52:00,607 --> 00:52:04,608
babies crying,
mothers holding them.
957
00:52:04,647 --> 00:52:09,088
They started screaming,
"Men and boys into one column.
958
00:52:09,128 --> 00:52:11,687
Five in a row, fast! Fast!"
959
00:52:11,728 --> 00:52:14,007
I grabbed a hold
of my dad's hand
960
00:52:14,047 --> 00:52:18,407
and stood there, and my mom,
my sister and aunts,
961
00:52:18,448 --> 00:52:21,807
my grandma were in the
other column with the women.
962
00:52:21,847 --> 00:52:23,927
They were screaming
and yelling.
963
00:52:23,968 --> 00:52:26,927
People were so traumatized,
so scared.
964
00:52:28,807 --> 00:52:32,367
So there is that Nazi
yelling in German, "Twins! Twins!"
965
00:52:32,407 --> 00:52:35,648
My poor mother hesitated
and said, "Is that good?"
966
00:52:36,487 --> 00:52:39,007
And the Nazi nodded "yes."
967
00:52:39,047 --> 00:52:41,368
So my mother said, "Yes."
968
00:52:41,408 --> 00:52:43,727
At that moment
another Nazi came,
969
00:52:43,767 --> 00:52:47,528
pulled my mother to the right,
we were pulled to the left.
970
00:52:47,567 --> 00:52:50,048
We were crying,
she was crying.
971
00:52:50,087 --> 00:52:52,527
I didn't really understand
972
00:52:52,567 --> 00:52:56,608
that this would be the last
time that we would see her.
973
00:52:56,647 --> 00:53:00,367
My mother, with my siblings,
my grandparents and my aunt,
974
00:53:01,367 --> 00:53:03,808
they were told to go
to the left.
975
00:53:03,848 --> 00:53:07,648
I know they were taken into the
gas chamber of Krematoria II.
976
00:53:07,688 --> 00:53:11,047
My father and uncle and I,
we were selected for slave labor.
977
00:53:11,087 --> 00:53:13,487
We were processed.
Our clothes were taken away,
978
00:53:13,527 --> 00:53:15,767
our hair was shaved.
And the next morning,
979
00:53:15,808 --> 00:53:18,727
we were given a tattooed
number and striped outfits.
980
00:53:18,767 --> 00:53:22,767
And I became a slave labor
working for a German Reich.
981
00:53:25,167 --> 00:53:29,287
Mengele used
1,500 sets of twins
982
00:53:29,327 --> 00:53:32,367
in his various experiments.
983
00:53:32,408 --> 00:53:34,087
Take a set of twins,
984
00:53:34,127 --> 00:53:35,647
inject one with a disease.
985
00:53:35,687 --> 00:53:37,728
When that one dies,
you kill the other one,
986
00:53:37,767 --> 00:53:41,487
and then you get the results
of how the disease works.
987
00:53:41,527 --> 00:53:44,967
After one of those
injections, I became very ill
988
00:53:45,008 --> 00:53:47,087
with a very high fever.
989
00:53:47,127 --> 00:53:48,568
Next morning,
990
00:53:48,608 --> 00:53:51,608
Mengele came in
with four other doctors.
991
00:53:51,648 --> 00:53:55,047
He looked at my fever chart
and then he declared,
992
00:53:55,087 --> 00:53:58,687
laughing sarcastically
he said, "Too bad.
993
00:53:58,727 --> 00:54:02,208
She's so young,
she has only two weeks to live."
994
00:54:02,247 --> 00:54:05,127
But after two weeks,
my fever broke.
995
00:54:05,168 --> 00:54:06,848
I survived,
996
00:54:06,887 --> 00:54:10,607
and I was released and
reunited with my twin sister
997
00:54:10,648 --> 00:54:11,808
and the other twins.
998
00:54:18,727 --> 00:54:21,047
While I was looking around,
999
00:54:21,088 --> 00:54:23,687
trying to make sense
of what I'm looking at,
1000
00:54:23,727 --> 00:54:27,087
I realized all of a sudden
that I was alone
1001
00:54:27,128 --> 00:54:30,327
and my mother was
several rows ahead of me,
1002
00:54:30,367 --> 00:54:32,728
and I started rushing
through the crowds
1003
00:54:32,768 --> 00:54:34,287
to catch up to her.
1004
00:54:34,327 --> 00:54:37,327
And all of a sudden
I was stopped.
1005
00:54:37,367 --> 00:54:39,527
A rifle in front of me,
1006
00:54:39,567 --> 00:54:43,807
and a young German soldier
telling me,
1007
00:54:43,847 --> 00:54:47,008
"Nein! Over there!
To the right!"
1008
00:54:47,047 --> 00:54:51,087
I said, "No, no, my mother is
there, I want to go with her!"
1009
00:54:51,128 --> 00:54:53,007
And he just kept
the rifle there
1010
00:54:53,048 --> 00:54:56,567
and said,
"No! You go there!"
1011
00:54:56,608 --> 00:55:00,327
And then I cried out
after my mom,
1012
00:55:00,367 --> 00:55:02,528
and she turned.
1013
00:55:02,567 --> 00:55:06,007
And I don't know
what I expected,
1014
00:55:06,047 --> 00:55:10,567
but she just looked at me
and didn't say a word.
1015
00:55:10,607 --> 00:55:13,047
And then turned around
and kept on going.
1016
00:55:14,647 --> 00:55:15,968
And I never saw her again.
1017
00:55:17,327 --> 00:55:20,928
That was, I think,
the hardest thing
1018
00:55:22,287 --> 00:55:24,007
that ever happened to me.
1019
00:55:31,687 --> 00:55:36,408
Even now I have trouble
talking about it.
1020
00:55:36,448 --> 00:55:39,328
And for over half a century,
I couldn't.
1021
00:55:42,688 --> 00:55:45,367
What happened
to my mom and my sister,
1022
00:55:45,407 --> 00:55:48,448
I don't know.
1023
00:55:48,487 --> 00:55:52,127
But I've never seen them again,
never said goodbye to them.
1024
00:55:52,167 --> 00:55:55,448
They just disappeared
from my life at that moment.
1025
00:56:13,728 --> 00:56:15,727
Oh, here.
1026
00:56:15,768 --> 00:56:18,087
Here is my father.
"Glied, Alexander,
1027
00:56:18,127 --> 00:56:21,647
1899, Petrovac, Yugoslavia.
1028
00:56:21,687 --> 00:56:23,887
Murdered in Kaufering,
Germany."
1029
00:56:26,328 --> 00:56:29,767
Here is my sister.
"Glied, Aniko, 1936,
1030
00:56:29,807 --> 00:56:32,247
Subotica, Yugoslavia.
1031
00:56:32,287 --> 00:56:34,487
Murdered in
Auschwitz, Poland."
1032
00:56:39,488 --> 00:56:43,087
Here is my mom.
"Glied, Miriam, 1907,
1033
00:56:43,127 --> 00:56:45,167
Jaszkarajeno, Hungary.
1034
00:56:45,207 --> 00:56:47,207
Murdered in
Auschwitz, Poland."
1035
00:56:48,288 --> 00:56:50,566
Oh, my God.
1036
00:56:50,607 --> 00:56:54,406
All of these Glieds
are relatives...
1037
00:56:55,767 --> 00:56:57,728
uncles and aunts of mine.
1038
00:57:42,927 --> 00:57:45,088
He spoke about
this whole situation as
1039
00:57:45,127 --> 00:57:48,888
"there was this bug
on the ground,
1040
00:57:48,928 --> 00:57:50,727
and I stepped on it."
1041
00:57:50,767 --> 00:57:53,327
To see the faces
of the survivors
1042
00:57:53,367 --> 00:57:55,287
after Groening spoke...
1043
00:57:56,167 --> 00:57:58,047
it was a terrible situation
1044
00:57:58,087 --> 00:58:01,167
when he explained some
stories out of his work.
1045
00:58:02,048 --> 00:58:03,968
Like the crying suitcase.
1046
00:58:33,888 --> 00:58:36,567
And he said,
"The crying stopped."
1047
00:58:36,608 --> 00:58:39,407
And that was...
I think that was,
1048
00:58:39,447 --> 00:58:42,287
it almost killed me.
I just couldn't believe it.
1049
00:58:42,327 --> 00:58:44,047
He said,
"That wasn't nice."
1050
00:58:46,127 --> 00:58:49,207
And later on they asked him,
"What would you have done?"
1051
00:58:50,328 --> 00:58:51,807
"Well, maybe shoot him.
1052
00:58:53,527 --> 00:58:57,166
That would have been
the nice thing for him."
1053
00:58:57,207 --> 00:58:59,327
I accept the fact
that they were brainwashed,
1054
00:58:59,367 --> 00:59:00,768
but there comes a point
1055
00:59:00,807 --> 00:59:02,887
where no matter how much
you are brainwashed,
1056
00:59:02,926 --> 00:59:04,966
when you see a baby
being picked up
1057
00:59:05,007 --> 00:59:07,007
and smashed against a door,
and you say,
1058
00:59:07,047 --> 00:59:10,087
"This is fine. This is okay.
This is acceptable."
1059
00:59:10,127 --> 00:59:11,647
I can't accept that.
1060
00:59:11,686 --> 00:59:15,847
I mean, he was giving
this information... willingly.
1061
00:59:15,887 --> 00:59:18,168
I mean, he was asked,
1062
00:59:18,208 --> 00:59:21,407
"Did a Jew have a chance
to leave this place alive?"
1063
00:59:23,127 --> 00:59:24,807
He says, "Absolutely not."
1064
00:59:26,127 --> 00:59:28,807
And that affected me
a lot, so...
1065
00:59:30,567 --> 00:59:32,727
He was an adult.
1066
00:59:32,767 --> 00:59:35,087
He was responsible
for his actions.
1067
00:59:35,127 --> 00:59:37,647
Not everybody who joined
the Hitler Youth
1068
00:59:37,687 --> 00:59:40,847
ended up joining the SS.
Not everybody who joined the SS
1069
00:59:40,887 --> 00:59:42,807
ended up being a guard
at Auschwitz,
1070
00:59:42,847 --> 00:59:44,486
leading people
to their death.
1071
00:59:44,527 --> 00:59:47,928
As far as following orders,
what one often hears is,
1072
00:59:47,968 --> 00:59:50,487
"I had to take part
in these crimes,
1073
00:59:50,527 --> 00:59:52,768
because had I not done so,
1074
00:59:52,807 --> 00:59:55,046
uh, the Germans
would have executed me
1075
00:59:55,087 --> 00:59:56,567
or sent me to a death camp."
1076
00:59:56,608 --> 00:59:59,007
One of the most
remarkable statistics
1077
00:59:59,047 --> 01:00:01,887
to emerge
out of the Holocaust
1078
01:00:01,927 --> 01:00:04,767
is the number of SS officers,
1079
01:00:04,807 --> 01:00:07,567
or even
senior German officers,
1080
01:00:07,607 --> 01:00:11,687
who suffered serious
life-threatening consequences
1081
01:00:11,727 --> 01:00:13,567
as a result of opting out.
1082
01:00:14,567 --> 01:00:17,487
That number is exactly zero.
1083
01:00:17,527 --> 01:00:20,806
Not one instance
has ever been found
1084
01:00:20,847 --> 01:00:22,528
in which it was confirmed
1085
01:00:22,567 --> 01:00:25,327
that someone who disobeyed
criminal orders
1086
01:00:25,367 --> 01:00:26,887
was subject
to severe punishment,
1087
01:00:26,927 --> 01:00:28,807
much less execution.
1088
01:00:28,847 --> 01:00:31,647
He was following
orders, but he had to know
1089
01:00:31,687 --> 01:00:35,366
at some level of consciousness
that it can't be legal
1090
01:00:35,407 --> 01:00:39,087
to murder infants,
babies, the elderly,
1091
01:00:39,127 --> 01:00:41,126
to murder people
who are his age now.
1092
01:00:41,167 --> 01:00:43,687
He had to know that
that was not only wrong,
1093
01:00:43,726 --> 01:00:46,127
but in some
ultimate sense, illegal.
1094
01:00:49,287 --> 01:00:52,527
You know, listening to
Groening, I got very upset,
1095
01:00:52,567 --> 01:00:57,967
because the things that he
brought forward voluntarily...
1096
01:00:58,007 --> 01:00:59,366
I mean, he was a big talker.
1097
01:00:59,407 --> 01:01:02,647
All I would want him
to say is, "I'm sorry."
1098
01:01:04,207 --> 01:01:06,327
That alone I think
would have been,
1099
01:01:06,367 --> 01:01:09,367
at the age of 94,
it would have meant everything,
1100
01:01:09,408 --> 01:01:11,846
as far as I was concerned.
1101
01:01:11,887 --> 01:01:14,487
Just those two words.
1102
01:01:14,527 --> 01:01:16,207
Somebody will have
to make the judgment,
1103
01:01:16,247 --> 01:01:20,206
and I think they are going
to consider our testimonies
1104
01:01:20,247 --> 01:01:21,967
and we'll see what happens.
1105
01:01:29,887 --> 01:01:32,966
I did not know how the
interaction with him would be.
1106
01:01:34,687 --> 01:01:40,167
I did not know how he would be
able to answer my questions,
1107
01:01:40,207 --> 01:01:43,127
but nevertheless I testified,
1108
01:01:43,168 --> 01:01:46,647
and I said right there in a German
court, clear and loud,
1109
01:01:46,687 --> 01:01:50,126
that I forgave him,
as I forgave all the Nazis,
1110
01:01:50,167 --> 01:01:52,287
and I forgave everybody
who hurt me.
1111
01:02:01,287 --> 01:02:03,287
It's outrageous what she did,
it's absolutely outrageous.
1112
01:02:03,328 --> 01:02:04,967
I felt like the floor
opened up
1113
01:02:05,007 --> 01:02:07,047
and I fell right down
into a basement.
1114
01:02:07,087 --> 01:02:08,927
She kept on
repeating the fact
1115
01:02:08,967 --> 01:02:11,127
that these people
are friends of hers.
1116
01:02:11,167 --> 01:02:14,246
And I said, "My God.
This woman must be crazy or what?"
1117
01:02:14,287 --> 01:02:18,647
Forgiving those
who tortured her
1118
01:02:18,688 --> 01:02:21,847
and killed so many,
so cruelly...
1119
01:02:21,887 --> 01:02:23,327
She's able to forgive.
1120
01:02:23,367 --> 01:02:25,327
Maybe she needs
that forgiveness
1121
01:02:25,367 --> 01:02:27,526
in order to go on, to be...
1122
01:02:27,566 --> 01:02:29,887
To stay mentally normal.
1123
01:02:29,927 --> 01:02:32,366
And what was even more shocking,
the people in the audience,
1124
01:02:32,407 --> 01:02:34,927
wherever they were,
they were clapping
1125
01:02:34,967 --> 01:02:37,607
this forgiveness thing,
1126
01:02:37,647 --> 01:02:41,487
and the judge said,
"Not in my court."
1127
01:02:41,527 --> 01:02:45,047
Eva Mozes, you know her story.
You know she was a twin,
1128
01:02:45,087 --> 01:02:46,647
and she is...
1129
01:02:46,687 --> 01:02:49,127
in every sense of the word,
she is a victim,
1130
01:02:49,167 --> 01:02:51,047
as all the other victims,
1131
01:02:51,087 --> 01:02:53,687
and she should be
treated like this.
1132
01:02:53,727 --> 01:02:56,767
Saturday,
I was coming back to the United States.
1133
01:02:56,807 --> 01:02:58,927
The court session was over.
1134
01:02:58,967 --> 01:03:01,286
And he was still
sitting at his desk.
1135
01:03:01,327 --> 01:03:03,927
So, I went up
to Oskar Groening.
1136
01:03:27,847 --> 01:03:31,407
An embrace between
two people is touching people
1137
01:03:31,447 --> 01:03:32,447
around the world.
1138
01:03:33,568 --> 01:03:36,167
We begin tonight
with an amazing story.
1139
01:03:36,207 --> 01:03:38,287
A Terre Haute woman
is at the center
1140
01:03:38,327 --> 01:03:40,366
of international attention.
1141
01:03:40,406 --> 01:03:43,087
This after a courageous
act of kindness
1142
01:03:43,127 --> 01:03:45,727
that took social media
by storm.
1143
01:03:50,207 --> 01:03:53,126
She was the most
famous person in Luneburg
1144
01:03:53,167 --> 01:03:55,206
because the world's press
were all around her.
1145
01:03:55,247 --> 01:03:58,847
Everybody caught onto this
forgiveness business, you see.
1146
01:03:58,886 --> 01:04:00,686
The biggest gesture
you could imagine.
1147
01:04:00,727 --> 01:04:02,647
You hug the monster,
1148
01:04:02,687 --> 01:04:05,087
you hug part of the machine
that killed your family,
1149
01:04:05,127 --> 01:04:06,208
that almost killed you,
1150
01:04:06,247 --> 01:04:08,526
so it was a gesture
of forgiving,
1151
01:04:08,567 --> 01:04:11,287
but there was big media
headlines and big outcry
1152
01:04:11,327 --> 01:04:13,647
if she should do that,
if that is too much,
1153
01:04:13,687 --> 01:04:17,047
if one can forgive
part of the Nazi machine
1154
01:04:17,087 --> 01:04:18,806
or if it just
should not be forgiven.
1155
01:04:18,847 --> 01:04:23,046
She has succeeded
in infuriating
1156
01:04:23,087 --> 01:04:26,207
practically every other
survivor around,
1157
01:04:26,247 --> 01:04:27,446
and for good reason.
1158
01:04:28,686 --> 01:04:30,527
By forgiving,
1159
01:04:30,566 --> 01:04:34,327
I removed whatever
happened to me.
1160
01:04:36,127 --> 01:04:38,006
She asked me many times
in the past,
1161
01:04:38,047 --> 01:04:40,206
"You have to forgive
your grandfather."
1162
01:04:40,247 --> 01:04:43,687
And I said no,
I can't forgive him.
1163
01:04:43,726 --> 01:04:46,687
Not with all that stuff
he put on our shoulders.
1164
01:04:47,527 --> 01:04:49,606
But she has to deal with it.
1165
01:04:49,646 --> 01:04:51,247
She has to stand it.
1166
01:04:51,287 --> 01:04:53,486
So it's up to her.
1167
01:04:53,527 --> 01:04:58,367
If that's the way for Eva
to live with it, I accept it.
1168
01:04:58,406 --> 01:05:00,807
The best way
to defeat an enemy
1169
01:05:00,847 --> 01:05:02,807
is to make him a friend.
1170
01:05:02,847 --> 01:05:06,327
I believe that I defeated
Oskar Groening
1171
01:05:07,206 --> 01:05:08,806
by making him a friend.
1172
01:05:10,926 --> 01:05:13,087
Groening,
right after the war,
1173
01:05:13,126 --> 01:05:15,887
decided to marry
the widow of his brother.
1174
01:05:16,646 --> 01:05:18,326
He had two children,
1175
01:05:18,367 --> 01:05:20,646
and of course he lived
a peaceful life
1176
01:05:20,687 --> 01:05:22,126
and he enjoyed life.
1177
01:05:22,166 --> 01:05:24,127
A very important
thing for Mr. Groening
1178
01:05:24,166 --> 01:05:26,727
was in the middle of the '80s.
1179
01:05:26,767 --> 01:05:29,647
He was meeting somebody
who was collecting stamps,
1180
01:05:29,687 --> 01:05:31,687
like he himself did.
1181
01:05:31,726 --> 01:05:33,887
They were talking
about the Nazi crimes
1182
01:05:33,926 --> 01:05:37,247
and the other person
denied the Holocaust.
1183
01:05:37,287 --> 01:05:40,087
He found it insufferable
that this guy
1184
01:05:40,127 --> 01:05:41,967
was going around saying
the Holocaust didn't happen.
1185
01:05:42,007 --> 01:05:44,007
He was in Auschwitz.
He could tell you that it happened.
1186
01:05:44,047 --> 01:05:46,967
He wanted to actually
come along and tell people,
1187
01:05:47,007 --> 01:05:50,847
"Look, I was there,
I know that these crimes were committed."
1188
01:05:50,887 --> 01:05:54,766
He made some interviews
to the German news magazine Spiegel
1189
01:05:54,806 --> 01:05:56,326
and to the BBC.
1190
01:05:56,367 --> 01:05:58,606
Before these interviews,
nobody knew Mr. Groening.
1191
01:06:20,567 --> 01:06:22,287
He exposed himself.
1192
01:06:22,327 --> 01:06:25,007
And that was
a positive thing to do,
1193
01:06:25,047 --> 01:06:26,847
clearly, a courageous
thing to do.
1194
01:06:26,886 --> 01:06:29,847
So, I think that's a very
important extenuating circumstance.
1195
01:06:29,887 --> 01:06:31,887
And to me,
1196
01:06:31,927 --> 01:06:34,647
that would have been sufficient
reason to not prosecute him.
1197
01:06:34,687 --> 01:06:38,166
Mr. Groening, what do you say
to those who still deny the Holocaust?
1198
01:06:38,207 --> 01:06:41,487
Nothing.
They are hopelessly lost.
1199
01:07:00,447 --> 01:07:03,447
Mr. Groening
made a long statement
1200
01:07:03,487 --> 01:07:05,006
about the things
he did in Auschwitz,
1201
01:07:05,046 --> 01:07:07,886
and he confessed
that in a moral way,
1202
01:07:07,926 --> 01:07:11,686
he is guilty in the Holocaust.
In the end, um,
1203
01:07:11,726 --> 01:07:14,207
the decision whether
he is guilty or not
1204
01:07:14,247 --> 01:07:15,967
has to be taken
by the court,
1205
01:07:16,006 --> 01:07:19,046
and that cannot be made
by Mr. Groening.
1206
01:07:19,087 --> 01:07:23,846
Groening is testifying.
He is not acting sick.
1207
01:07:23,887 --> 01:07:27,607
He is the same age
as Demjanjuk
1208
01:07:27,647 --> 01:07:32,006
but he is not wearing a
baseball cap or lying in bed.
1209
01:07:32,046 --> 01:07:34,367
Oh,
I think the testimony of Oskar Groening
1210
01:07:34,406 --> 01:07:36,726
is very, very important.
1211
01:07:36,767 --> 01:07:40,366
He is a hands-on
participant observer
1212
01:07:40,406 --> 01:07:43,446
who puts the lie to all
the Holocaust deniers who say,
1213
01:07:43,487 --> 01:07:45,166
"There were no gas chambers,
1214
01:07:45,206 --> 01:07:47,967
there were no crematoria,
there was no Zyklon."
1215
01:07:48,007 --> 01:07:49,527
He puts the lie
to all of that.
1216
01:07:49,567 --> 01:07:50,487
He was there.
1217
01:07:50,527 --> 01:07:52,486
He saw it with his own eyes.
1218
01:07:52,527 --> 01:07:56,726
And yet the Holocaust deniers
can't accept the reality
1219
01:07:56,766 --> 01:07:59,407
of what he's saying,
and he deserves some credit
1220
01:07:59,447 --> 01:08:03,967
for having testified
to the truth of what he saw.
1221
01:08:04,006 --> 01:08:06,207
The truth of the matter is,
you know, in 1945,
1222
01:08:06,247 --> 01:08:08,767
at the end of the war and
the discovery of the camps
1223
01:08:08,806 --> 01:08:12,126
and the horror
of the Nazis' crimes,
1224
01:08:12,166 --> 01:08:15,287
the phrase "never again"
was coined.
1225
01:08:15,327 --> 01:08:17,727
The only problem is
there's nothing behind it.
1226
01:08:17,767 --> 01:08:20,247
In other words,
there have been so many tragedies,
1227
01:08:20,287 --> 01:08:23,127
similar, but not equal to
the Holocaust over the years
1228
01:08:23,167 --> 01:08:26,807
that this "NEVER AGAIN" basically
is absolutely meaningless.
1229
01:08:26,847 --> 01:08:30,207
It's too dangerous today.
The world is different, it's changing.
1230
01:08:30,247 --> 01:08:33,166
Our capacity to kill is
getting completely out of hand.
1231
01:08:34,967 --> 01:08:38,286
We see the wars that are
taking place now in Syria.
1232
01:08:38,326 --> 01:08:41,567
We talk about ISIS.
It's nothing new.
1233
01:08:41,606 --> 01:08:44,086
Part of the reason
you had cases like Rwanda,
1234
01:08:44,127 --> 01:08:47,086
and Cambodia, and Biafra,
and Darfur, and Bosnia,
1235
01:08:47,127 --> 01:08:50,207
and all these things,
is that it's not at all clear
1236
01:08:50,246 --> 01:08:52,446
that if you participate
in such crimes,
1237
01:08:52,486 --> 01:08:56,486
you'll actually pay for them.
Again and again and again and again,
1238
01:08:56,526 --> 01:08:57,807
people got away with it.
1239
01:08:57,847 --> 01:08:59,927
And that's terrible.
That's absolutely terrible.
1240
01:08:59,967 --> 01:09:02,446
Without history,
there is no memory.
1241
01:09:02,487 --> 01:09:04,326
Without memory,
there is no future.
1242
01:09:04,366 --> 01:09:06,166
If we don't learn
from the past,
1243
01:09:06,207 --> 01:09:07,926
we repeat
the same mistakes again.
1244
01:09:07,967 --> 01:09:11,046
Jews will not replace us!
1245
01:09:11,086 --> 01:09:13,926
Jews will not replace us!
1246
01:09:21,246 --> 01:09:23,927
If we can send
a powerful message
1247
01:09:23,967 --> 01:09:26,767
that there is no statute
of limitations on genocide,
1248
01:09:26,807 --> 01:09:30,687
it could have an impact
on preventing individuals
1249
01:09:30,727 --> 01:09:35,127
from risking prosecution,
even at the end of their lives.
1250
01:09:59,967 --> 01:10:02,047
I wanted Groening desperately
1251
01:10:02,086 --> 01:10:05,087
to be convicted
of this terrible act,
1252
01:10:06,527 --> 01:10:08,047
but I have come
to the conclusion
1253
01:10:08,087 --> 01:10:10,687
that I don't want
to see him go to jail.
1254
01:10:13,006 --> 01:10:15,006
I feel that
the important thing
1255
01:10:15,046 --> 01:10:16,567
is that
he should be convicted,
1256
01:10:16,607 --> 01:10:18,966
and he should go back
to this town,
1257
01:10:19,007 --> 01:10:21,087
where he lived for 70 years,
1258
01:10:21,126 --> 01:10:23,807
where everybody knew
what he did,
1259
01:10:23,846 --> 01:10:25,486
and where he was.
1260
01:10:25,526 --> 01:10:27,967
And people should see him
walk on the street and say,
1261
01:10:28,006 --> 01:10:29,887
"There goes Oskar Groening,
1262
01:10:29,926 --> 01:10:33,286
the man who got convicted in
the murder of 300,000 people."
1263
01:10:35,846 --> 01:10:37,727
Well, he is all we have.
1264
01:10:37,766 --> 01:10:40,806
And if we want
to establish a precedent,
1265
01:10:40,846 --> 01:10:43,206
a new law that in the future
1266
01:10:43,246 --> 01:10:45,567
will not allow guilty
1267
01:10:45,606 --> 01:10:48,886
to escape on technicalities,
we do it through him.
1268
01:10:57,246 --> 01:10:59,206
An extraordinary moment
in Germany
1269
01:10:59,246 --> 01:11:01,446
when the sins of World War II
finally caught up
1270
01:11:01,486 --> 01:11:03,686
with a man known as the
"Accountant of Auschwitz."
1271
01:11:03,727 --> 01:11:06,246
He was convicted and sentenced
to four years in prison,
1272
01:11:06,286 --> 01:11:09,126
in what is likely
one of the last Nazi trials
1273
01:11:09,166 --> 01:11:10,286
we will ever witness.
1274
01:11:13,806 --> 01:11:17,326
Of course the
verdict is not very surprising.
1275
01:11:17,366 --> 01:11:20,246
But we will re-examine
the details of the case.
1276
01:11:20,846 --> 01:11:24,847
It was emotional.
1277
01:11:24,887 --> 01:11:26,606
Thank you.
1278
01:11:26,647 --> 01:11:29,407
The fact that
he only got four years,
1279
01:11:29,446 --> 01:11:31,406
I think with the same effort,
1280
01:11:31,447 --> 01:11:33,407
the judge could have
given him 100 years.
1281
01:11:33,446 --> 01:11:37,726
I don't expect that he is
ever going to be in a jail.
1282
01:11:37,766 --> 01:11:40,406
This is for
future generations,
1283
01:11:40,446 --> 01:11:42,646
for all those people
1284
01:11:42,687 --> 01:11:45,087
who are still
murdering people
1285
01:11:45,126 --> 01:11:47,086
because they are
different color,
1286
01:11:47,126 --> 01:11:49,567
different tribe,
different religion.
1287
01:11:49,606 --> 01:11:52,687
It is for them to know
that judgment,
1288
01:11:52,727 --> 01:11:54,647
no matter
how long it will take,
1289
01:11:54,687 --> 01:11:55,846
will catch up with them.
1290
01:12:08,006 --> 01:12:12,046
My being a witness
was like putting a bouquet
1291
01:12:12,086 --> 01:12:15,086
on the non-existent grave
of my parents.
1292
01:12:15,126 --> 01:12:19,607
I feel that my loved ones
who were murdered
1293
01:12:19,647 --> 01:12:23,366
finally got some justice.
1294
01:12:23,406 --> 01:12:26,606
That my murdered
mother and father
1295
01:12:26,646 --> 01:12:29,087
now, perhaps,
1296
01:12:29,686 --> 01:12:31,366
can rest in peace.
1297
01:12:43,487 --> 01:12:46,806
I feel tremendous elation
1298
01:12:46,846 --> 01:12:50,926
in the fact that I am sitting
in a German court,
1299
01:12:51,846 --> 01:12:53,566
with my daughter,
1300
01:12:53,606 --> 01:12:55,566
with my granddaughter,
1301
01:12:55,606 --> 01:12:57,406
which proves that we,
1302
01:12:57,446 --> 01:13:01,086
like the eternal phoenix,
1303
01:13:01,126 --> 01:13:04,686
rise again from
the Holocaust ashes,
1304
01:13:04,727 --> 01:13:06,326
that we can survive.
1305
01:13:40,149 --> 01:13:45,149
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