1
00:00:11,084 --> 00:00:15,251
Demarcation Line - Do not cross
2
00:00:15,542 --> 00:00:21,334
On November 11th, on the French
German demarcation line at 7 a.m.,
3
00:00:22,334 --> 00:00:25,292
under orders from the FiJhrer,
the Wehrmacht
4
00:00:25,459 --> 00:00:29,584
crossed unoccupied France
to the Mediterranean.
5
00:00:29,917 --> 00:00:34,709
This is a response to Anglo-American
aggression in French North Africa
6
00:00:34,876 --> 00:00:39,584
preventing the enemy from landing
on the southern coast of France.
7
00:00:50,959 --> 00:00:54,834
At first, we called them the Fritzes,
then the Jerries,
8
00:00:55,042 --> 00:00:57,334
the Krauts, the Boches,
9
00:00:57,501 --> 00:00:59,792
the Beetles, the Verdigris.
10
00:01:00,834 --> 00:01:04,167
Public imagination
was very fertile back then.
11
00:01:04,542 --> 00:01:06,834
Why call them Beetles?
12
00:01:07,042 --> 00:01:10,751
Because beetles eat potatoes
and leave nothing behind.
13
00:01:11,001 --> 00:01:13,376
The Germans also left nothing behind.
14
00:01:13,542 --> 00:01:16,459
- Not even potatoes?
- No potatoes.
15
00:01:16,626 --> 00:01:18,834
What can you say in French?
16
00:01:20,084 --> 00:01:24,584
I learned the rules
of etiquette, greetings.
17
00:01:24,876 --> 00:01:31,334
I learned to make myself understood,
especially to young ladies.
18
00:01:31,501 --> 00:01:38,751
To go for a walk: "Excuse me, miss,
would you care to go for a walk?"
19
00:01:39,209 --> 00:01:40,501
And what else?
20
00:01:40,917 --> 00:01:46,959
Good day, sir. Good evening, sir.
Good night, ma'am.
21
00:01:49,334 --> 00:01:50,376
MISS...
22
00:01:51,792 --> 00:01:55,834
This afternoon, there were concerts
in the occupied cities.
23
00:02:07,501 --> 00:02:11,042
THE SORROW AND THE PITY
24
00:02:16,876 --> 00:02:20,709
Chronicle of a French city
under the Occupation
25
00:02:35,542 --> 00:02:39,792
Part 2: THE CHOICE
26
00:02:47,251 --> 00:02:49,292
- Best of three?
- OK.
27
00:02:53,417 --> 00:02:55,376
Of course, races were rare then.
28
00:02:56,459 --> 00:02:59,501
In 1940, racing was almost obsolete.
29
00:02:59,667 --> 00:03:05,334
It was only in 1941, 1942, and 1943
that racing really began.
30
00:03:05,542 --> 00:03:07,376
I started in 1943.
31
00:03:07,542 --> 00:03:09,917
- In 1943?
- That's right.
32
00:03:10,417 --> 00:03:14,167
I started in 1943
in the Dunlop final with Bobet.
33
00:03:14,459 --> 00:03:16,626
- We were in the same class.
- Is that right?
34
00:03:16,792 --> 00:03:20,209
The class of '45 was pretty big.
35
00:03:20,417 --> 00:03:23,876
There was Casara, Lazaridés, Bobet...
36
00:03:25,292 --> 00:03:31,376
You must understand that back then,
and I'm talking about cycling,
37
00:03:31,709 --> 00:03:34,959
it was the only way
people had of getting around.
38
00:03:35,417 --> 00:03:40,459
You started off your adult life
in a rather difficult period.
39
00:03:40,667 --> 00:03:45,209
For example, what about girls?
40
00:03:45,376 --> 00:03:49,167
- Girls?
- How was dating under Occupation?
41
00:03:49,501 --> 00:03:54,376
It's true that there was a problem.
First of all, we were young.
42
00:03:55,959 --> 00:04:01,001
On Sundays or in the evenings,
I'avenue des États-Unis was packed
43
00:04:01,209 --> 00:04:04,792
with people "doing the avenue,"
as we called it.
44
00:04:05,167 --> 00:04:10,334
From the Place de Jaude to Gaillard,
that was the place to be.
45
00:04:11,876 --> 00:04:16,209
For a young man like yourself,
was it particularly irritating
46
00:04:16,542 --> 00:04:20,459
to see a girl
on a German soldier's arm?
47
00:04:20,626 --> 00:04:23,209
- You must have seen some.
- Of course.
48
00:04:23,376 --> 00:04:27,542
It was considered annoying everywhere,
not just in Clermont.
49
00:04:27,709 --> 00:04:30,792
- Of course.
- It was generally frowned upon
50
00:04:31,167 --> 00:04:33,876
to see a woman
accompanied by a German.
51
00:04:34,251 --> 00:04:37,501
Some women dated Germans
52
00:04:37,667 --> 00:04:40,959
but they paid for that later,
after the Liberation.
53
00:04:41,167 --> 00:04:46,292
Some paid a very high price indeed
for having dated Germans.
54
00:04:46,542 --> 00:04:48,126
That's for sure.
55
00:04:48,334 --> 00:04:52,667
There weren't many Germans in Clermont,
as it wasn't occupied.
56
00:04:53,001 --> 00:04:55,876
Weren't the Germans here as of 1942?
57
00:04:57,334 --> 00:04:58,334
No.
58
00:04:58,792 --> 00:05:02,126
No, we only saw the Germans
through the Resistance.
59
00:05:02,709 --> 00:05:04,501
Clermont was never occupied.
60
00:05:04,667 --> 00:05:08,459
"No, no, we didn't see any Germans!"
61
00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:12,417
We've been told there were
very few Germans in Clermont.
62
00:05:12,584 --> 00:05:16,959
I saw too many of them.
I saw them everywhere.
63
00:05:17,084 --> 00:05:20,876
I saw them in my waking hours,
and I saw them in my sleep.
64
00:05:21,251 --> 00:05:26,001
Around their neck, they all wore ribbons
with some medal attached.
65
00:05:26,167 --> 00:05:28,084
I saw them everywhere.
66
00:05:28,167 --> 00:05:31,126
All I could see
was helmets and Germans.
67
00:05:31,626 --> 00:05:34,001
How come others didn't see them?
68
00:05:34,251 --> 00:05:36,751
They must have been short-sighted
69
00:05:37,251 --> 00:05:42,584
because Lord knows they were
everywhere. You couldn't miss them.
70
00:05:49,084 --> 00:05:52,667
I had participated
in the Russian campaign.
71
00:05:52,834 --> 00:05:55,834
In January 1942, I was hurt.
My feet froze.
72
00:05:57,251 --> 00:06:00,167
I was declared unfit
for service in the East
73
00:06:00,334 --> 00:06:03,917
which is why I returned to France
that same year.
74
00:06:06,209 --> 00:06:12,209
Service in France was humiliating
for an active serviceman like me.
75
00:06:12,459 --> 00:06:15,584
For us, the East
was the winning ticket.
76
00:06:20,334 --> 00:06:22,792
Yes, but you didn't win.
77
00:06:23,042 --> 00:06:26,001
No, we didn't,
but we couldn't have known that.
78
00:06:31,917 --> 00:06:36,251
The major of my regime
understood my feelings.
79
00:06:37,209 --> 00:06:38,584
He said to me,
80
00:06:38,792 --> 00:06:42,126
"My dear Tausend,
all you have to do is play the fool,
81
00:06:42,376 --> 00:06:44,792
"and you'll be back in no time."
82
00:06:45,167 --> 00:06:49,292
But it didn't work, so I stayed
in Clermont-Ferrand till the end.
83
00:06:53,626 --> 00:07:00,709
- Why? Couldn't you play stupid?
- No, I wasn't very good at that.
84
00:07:01,959 --> 00:07:06,459
In late 1942,
everything was quiet in Clermont.
85
00:07:06,876 --> 00:07:10,542
We were busy training new recruits,
86
00:07:10,751 --> 00:07:14,834
especially for
anti-partisan operations.
87
00:07:28,334 --> 00:07:31,626
The people in Clermont liked us.
We got along.
88
00:07:31,834 --> 00:07:36,292
French or German,
it made no difference to them.
89
00:07:53,917 --> 00:07:56,792
My friends and I
lived in a hotel in Royat.
90
00:07:57,001 --> 00:07:59,126
I think I still have some photos.
91
00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:05,334
Royat is north of Clermont-Ferrand.
92
00:08:15,376 --> 00:08:18,334
I had to put up with them.
93
00:08:18,917 --> 00:08:23,501
But I must say that as far as
hotel guests go, I can't complain.
94
00:08:24,542 --> 00:08:27,792
You say that you had to put up with them.
95
00:08:28,001 --> 00:08:30,626
- Were they hard to put up with?
- No, it wasn't that.
96
00:08:30,792 --> 00:08:33,459
No, it's just that they
kept me from working.
97
00:08:35,709 --> 00:08:39,626
I would have preferred real guests.
After all, I wasn't paid.
98
00:08:46,667 --> 00:08:51,126
As German soldiers, we were able
to get whatever we wanted.
99
00:08:52,751 --> 00:08:58,334
Cheese, ham, salami... Everything was
available on the black market.
100
00:09:03,042 --> 00:09:06,459
Did you ever get the feeling
that the people you patronised,
101
00:09:06,667 --> 00:09:10,334
for example,
shopkeepers, hoteliers and the like,
102
00:09:10,542 --> 00:09:16,209
were compromising themselves
in the eyes of other Frenchmen?
103
00:09:31,792 --> 00:09:34,459
Not at all. At least, not in 1942.
104
00:09:35,376 --> 00:09:38,251
The situation
somewhat deteriorated later,
105
00:09:40,042 --> 00:09:44,001
when the so-called
"war of partisans" began.
106
00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:49,501
I think I have a photo of that period,
in early 1943
107
00:09:49,667 --> 00:09:52,417
when we had to put up barbed wire.
108
00:10:05,042 --> 00:10:10,792
For example, in broad daylight,
they threw grenades at our soldiers
109
00:10:11,001 --> 00:10:14,292
who were marching
to one of our cinemas.
110
00:10:14,501 --> 00:10:18,334
I don't know if they were thrown
from rooftops or what.
111
00:10:18,542 --> 00:10:21,292
But there were
eight dead and 40 wounded.
112
00:10:25,417 --> 00:10:29,209
An hour before the 6:00 show,
they came along
113
00:10:30,001 --> 00:10:33,584
accompanied by armed sentries.
114
00:10:33,751 --> 00:10:37,751
The soldiers were unarmed,
but the sentries were armed.
115
00:10:38,001 --> 00:10:42,834
Then the terrorists threw the bombs
from high up on the city walls.
116
00:10:43,001 --> 00:10:44,584
You can see them there.
117
00:10:44,876 --> 00:10:49,376
The wounded fell, the ambulances came
and the show went on.
118
00:10:49,584 --> 00:10:51,584
A terrible retaliation followed.
119
00:10:51,792 --> 00:10:55,459
They burned down upper Clermont
in search of terrorists.
120
00:10:55,667 --> 00:10:57,584
Many young men were taken.
121
00:11:00,459 --> 00:11:04,626
Now obviously, we had to do something
about the situation.
122
00:11:05,584 --> 00:11:08,334
The partisans had,
of course, disappeared.
123
00:11:17,001 --> 00:11:21,876
Did you know that many people
were arrested on the Place de Jaude,
124
00:11:22,084 --> 00:11:24,542
many young people who were deported?
125
00:11:32,751 --> 00:11:35,376
No, I didn't realise that.
126
00:11:36,792 --> 00:11:39,959
All I know is that there was
a Gestapo unit in Clermont
127
00:11:41,001 --> 00:11:43,042
which terrified the French.
128
00:11:43,251 --> 00:11:45,334
Or so they always told us.
129
00:11:50,126 --> 00:11:53,042
But they were there to protect us.
130
00:11:59,334 --> 00:12:03,626
The Germans around here would
always tell us the same old story.
131
00:12:03,834 --> 00:12:08,042
German-French co-operation
is the solution, they'd say.
132
00:12:08,251 --> 00:12:11,084
They were convinced of it.
I don't know.
133
00:12:11,251 --> 00:12:15,334
- Maybe they were sincere.
- It's possible. I don't know.
134
00:12:15,917 --> 00:12:18,959
They were almost too nice,
yes, too nice
135
00:12:19,167 --> 00:12:24,376
because they knew we didn't like them,
so they tried hard.
136
00:12:24,584 --> 00:12:31,501
They'd almost always give their seat
in a tram to an elderly passenger.
137
00:12:31,709 --> 00:12:35,042
And what about girls?
138
00:12:35,917 --> 00:12:41,834
One night, Mrs Mioche, who was
always very strict on the subject
139
00:12:42,251 --> 00:12:46,917
saw a soldier come in after midnight
with two young ladies.
140
00:12:47,709 --> 00:12:50,501
Mrs Mioche wouldn't let the girls in.
141
00:12:50,709 --> 00:12:55,917
As they continued insisting,
she went and got their captain.
142
00:12:56,876 --> 00:13:01,167
The captain came down
and said Mrs Mioche was right.
143
00:13:01,334 --> 00:13:03,709
- They must not have been very happy.
- No.
144
00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:08,501
But what could they say? He was
their captain. They had to obey.
145
00:13:08,709 --> 00:13:13,334
And Mrs Mioche was happy
with the outcome of the situation.
146
00:13:13,542 --> 00:13:18,042
- So she was happy...
- Yes, but she was still afraid
147
00:13:18,584 --> 00:13:20,667
that they would come in anyhow.
148
00:13:20,917 --> 00:13:25,001
- She told them, "This isn't a..."
- A brothel.
149
00:13:25,167 --> 00:13:30,417
And the next day, they requisitioned
a house across the street,
150
00:13:30,584 --> 00:13:32,834
hence solving their problem.
151
00:13:41,126 --> 00:13:45,709
As is always the case in a war,
when soldiers are far from home
152
00:13:46,292 --> 00:13:48,709
brothels were set up.
153
00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:51,376
There were many in Clermont-Ferrand.
154
00:13:51,626 --> 00:13:57,251
The Clermont girls wouldn't give us
the time of day on the streets.
155
00:13:58,459 --> 00:14:01,501
And when you weren't
on the streets?
156
00:14:02,334 --> 00:14:07,126
It's true that they were
much friendlier at night.
157
00:14:16,667 --> 00:14:21,709
The situation deteriorated
when the Michelin factory was bombed.
158
00:14:25,001 --> 00:14:30,126
You know, the famous French tyre
factory, which worked for us.
159
00:14:37,042 --> 00:14:42,084
The Americans aimed badly
and dropped their bombs everywhere.
160
00:14:52,001 --> 00:14:54,792
And naturally, people blamed us.
161
00:15:01,126 --> 00:15:03,834
I think by late 1942, early 1943,
162
00:15:04,209 --> 00:15:07,417
the Resistance was busy everywhere.
163
00:15:26,501 --> 00:15:31,917
English pilots would bomb France.
Didn't that bother you?
164
00:15:32,584 --> 00:15:37,542
No, they didn't bomb people,
they bombed German-occupied factories
165
00:15:38,334 --> 00:15:39,876
and that's all.
166
00:15:40,501 --> 00:15:42,501
We were at war.
167
00:15:43,417 --> 00:15:49,876
We were allies against the Germans.
It was the point of the Resistance.
168
00:15:50,042 --> 00:15:53,126
I even had to sign
a contract in London.
169
00:15:53,876 --> 00:15:56,209
I was registered in London.
170
00:15:56,417 --> 00:16:01,376
I still remember
my registration number: 61,055.
171
00:16:01,542 --> 00:16:04,001
I was registered in London.
172
00:16:27,584 --> 00:16:29,959
The last time I actually
flew in one of these
173
00:16:30,667 --> 00:16:34,542
was in May 1944 when we were
shot down over occupied France.
174
00:16:44,001 --> 00:16:50,334
- Is it harder to get in one today?
- I have put on a couple of stone.
175
00:16:57,876 --> 00:17:03,376
You don't look very French.
Did you have a moustache back then?
176
00:17:03,834 --> 00:17:07,876
No, this is the point.
I did have a moustache
177
00:17:08,042 --> 00:17:10,501
but I was asked to shave it off
178
00:17:10,667 --> 00:17:14,709
as there didn't seem to be
many Frenchmen with moustaches about.
179
00:17:19,459 --> 00:17:25,834
They supplied me with an old jacket,
not exactly Savile Row style,
180
00:17:26,001 --> 00:17:28,209
but it served its purpose...
181
00:17:34,542 --> 00:17:40,042
And a beret. We cut the tops off
our boots to make shoes.
182
00:17:41,834 --> 00:17:45,042
Did you find
the people of France helpful?
183
00:17:46,709 --> 00:17:50,709
Certainly.
People would risk their lives for you.
184
00:17:50,917 --> 00:17:55,876
They knew if the Germans got them,
they would be shot without a trial.
185
00:18:06,042 --> 00:18:10,792
I remember Mr Saugay,
who put me up for quite some time.
186
00:18:11,001 --> 00:18:14,084
I didn't know
cigarettes were so rare in France.
187
00:18:14,292 --> 00:18:16,876
In England, there were lots.
188
00:18:17,084 --> 00:18:21,209
But he gave me
20 cigarettes a clay: Gauloises.
189
00:18:21,459 --> 00:18:24,042
Sometimes, I'd even ask for more.
190
00:18:24,209 --> 00:18:26,334
I only realised he was a smoker, too
191
00:18:26,501 --> 00:18:31,042
when I saw him one night
cleaning up the ashtrays
192
00:18:31,126 --> 00:18:33,376
and smoking my cigarette stubs.
193
00:18:59,792 --> 00:19:02,042
- We'd go to the woods.
- Over there.
194
00:19:02,126 --> 00:19:04,209
Over there, in the woods.
195
00:19:04,709 --> 00:19:10,584
- And where did you keep the weapons?
- 'm my father's house, over there.
196
00:19:11,376 --> 00:19:15,292
That's where we'd clean
the weapons we received.
197
00:19:16,251 --> 00:19:21,001
- How about hiding places?
- There were some in the woods.
198
00:19:21,334 --> 00:19:25,501
There were some in the vineyards,
in the woods
199
00:19:25,667 --> 00:19:29,126
- and over there.
- I bet there are still some around.
200
00:19:30,251 --> 00:19:34,542
This isn't a very big area,
so how did you manage?
201
00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:37,001
People must have found out.
202
00:19:37,167 --> 00:19:41,876
What was the reaction of villagers
who weren't in the Resistance?
203
00:19:42,251 --> 00:19:44,876
- Well, they...
- They shut their mouths.
204
00:19:45,084 --> 00:19:46,959
They kept very quiet.
205
00:19:51,584 --> 00:19:53,959
First, I was taken by the police
206
00:19:54,501 --> 00:19:59,084
then I was taken to Clermont
207
00:19:59,251 --> 00:20:01,542
and then I was put in prison.
208
00:20:01,709 --> 00:20:05,209
First, I was put in the Clermont prison
209
00:20:05,376 --> 00:20:10,834
and then I was taken
to the prison in La Mélisse.
210
00:20:11,001 --> 00:20:16,626
- But I only stayed one clay, then I...
- You should've stayed in Clermont.
211
00:20:17,417 --> 00:20:22,001
Next, I was taken to 2 bis.
212
00:20:22,209 --> 00:20:26,626
I was sent twice in one day,
and again the next day, and the next.
213
00:20:26,792 --> 00:20:29,542
- I went five times.
- Were you tortured?
214
00:20:29,709 --> 00:20:34,917
- Were you beaten?
- It was no party, let me tell you.
215
00:20:35,084 --> 00:20:38,542
These gentlemen
had found twelve parachutes
216
00:20:38,751 --> 00:20:44,084
in our house and they wanted to know
how this came to be.
217
00:20:45,459 --> 00:20:48,042
- But you didn't say?
- No.
218
00:20:54,251 --> 00:21:00,042
I was liberated,
we were liberated, in full flight.
219
00:21:00,376 --> 00:21:04,001
They'd been making us walk for three days
220
00:21:06,792 --> 00:21:10,542
when the Germans abandoned us
in a little region.
221
00:21:10,959 --> 00:21:17,667
I'll never forget it. It was called Itsdorf,
in Saxony, by the Elbe.
222
00:21:18,459 --> 00:21:21,959
- Do you have any old photos?
- No, I was too ugly.
223
00:21:22,126 --> 00:21:24,876
No one wanted to take my picture.
224
00:21:25,084 --> 00:21:28,584
- Why? How much did you weigh?
- 92 pounds.
225
00:21:29,334 --> 00:21:32,959
- Why didn't you take any pictures?
- I didn't want to.
226
00:21:33,167 --> 00:21:37,001
I didn't think
anyone should see me like that.
227
00:21:37,167 --> 00:21:40,584
- You were waiting to be...
- More handsome.
228
00:21:44,459 --> 00:21:47,501
Yes, I saw a lot of suffering.
229
00:21:47,709 --> 00:21:51,876
I saw a convoy arrive.
230
00:21:52,292 --> 00:21:54,876
I think it came from Hungary.
231
00:21:55,042 --> 00:21:58,001
Out of 50,000 people, not one...
232
00:21:59,709 --> 00:22:04,209
I remember I was designated
to bring them some soup.
233
00:22:04,834 --> 00:22:08,251
They were close to the cinema.
234
00:22:08,417 --> 00:22:13,917
There was a cinema, a brothel,
and everything in Buchenwald.
235
00:22:14,917 --> 00:22:16,584
It's the truth.
236
00:22:17,459 --> 00:22:20,751
I brought them this soup,
and they fell upon it.
237
00:22:20,959 --> 00:22:25,001
All 50,000 of them
literally fell upon this soup
238
00:22:25,084 --> 00:22:30,251
spilling it everywhere. They were
down on their knees in the mud.
239
00:22:30,459 --> 00:22:36,959
There must have been at least
eight inches of mud on the ground.
240
00:22:37,417 --> 00:22:40,042
Well, they ate out of the mud.
241
00:22:40,209 --> 00:22:44,209
And four days later,
they were all gunned down.
242
00:22:44,376 --> 00:22:46,292
That was Buchenwald.
243
00:22:46,834 --> 00:22:50,126
Did you notice any difference
244
00:22:50,292 --> 00:22:54,626
between the various levels
of French society?
245
00:22:54,917 --> 00:23:01,126
Most definitely. I can honestly say
that the people who helped me most
246
00:23:01,709 --> 00:23:04,209
were the railway workers.
247
00:23:05,042 --> 00:23:09,084
And, though it's hard to admit now,
the Communists.
248
00:23:10,209 --> 00:23:15,334
French workers were wonderful people.
249
00:23:15,542 --> 00:23:20,542
They would do anything.
They'd give you their last penny.
250
00:23:21,001 --> 00:23:25,876
I stayed with these people,
I stayed in one room.
251
00:23:26,001 --> 00:23:30,417
There was only one room and a kitchen,
and I slept in the kitchen
252
00:23:31,209 --> 00:23:34,792
in a town called Juvisy, near Paris.
253
00:23:35,167 --> 00:23:39,501
It was extremely
dangerous territory back then.
254
00:23:39,751 --> 00:23:42,501
They would lend me some overalls
255
00:23:43,001 --> 00:23:45,584
because every day, I'd walk along
256
00:23:45,792 --> 00:23:51,251
and copy down
the various electric train lines
257
00:23:51,417 --> 00:23:54,751
because we wanted to bomb them.
258
00:23:54,959 --> 00:23:58,792
This wasn't really my job.
My job was the radio.
259
00:23:59,001 --> 00:24:02,626
But I helped the others
when things were going slowly.
260
00:24:02,834 --> 00:24:05,292
And so they lent me their overalls.
261
00:24:06,042 --> 00:24:10,792
You've mentioned the workers,
but what about the French bourgeoisie
262
00:24:11,001 --> 00:24:15,709
- from what you've seen of them?
- The bourgeoisie...
263
00:24:16,209 --> 00:24:20,959
I must say, were very neutral.
They didn't help me much.
264
00:24:21,292 --> 00:24:23,417
No, not the bourgeoisie.
265
00:24:23,626 --> 00:24:27,209
I was impressed by the people,
266
00:24:27,417 --> 00:24:32,876
the waiters in the restaurants,
the cashiers in the grocery shops.
267
00:24:33,084 --> 00:24:36,126
There were always
go-betweens in these shops,
268
00:24:36,334 --> 00:24:39,376
but I don't know if they knew
what they were doing.
269
00:24:39,584 --> 00:24:42,667
And we never explained
what the danger was.
270
00:24:44,376 --> 00:24:51,126
But the workers were always able
to provide me with what I needed,
271
00:24:51,334 --> 00:24:54,167
whereas the bourgeoisie was scared.
272
00:24:54,334 --> 00:24:56,459
They had more to lose.
273
00:24:57,626 --> 00:25:01,251
And I think that in life,
no matter where you go
274
00:25:01,459 --> 00:25:04,834
people often consider
what they have to lose.
275
00:25:05,001 --> 00:25:07,834
I had nothing to lose.
That's why I did it.
276
00:25:08,501 --> 00:25:12,209
I had no parents, I wasn't married,
so what did it matter?
277
00:25:16,084 --> 00:25:19,876
Denis Rake was a boy.
278
00:25:20,084 --> 00:25:21,876
Actually, he's older than I am.
279
00:25:22,042 --> 00:25:25,334
He was a guy who had faith.
280
00:25:25,501 --> 00:25:31,167
He was very patriotic,
with a very deep sense of duty.
281
00:25:33,126 --> 00:25:35,834
He was amazingly brave.
282
00:25:36,042 --> 00:25:40,209
He was incredibly shy,
and he hated firearms,
283
00:25:41,417 --> 00:25:43,626
but we needed people like him,
284
00:25:43,834 --> 00:25:47,376
as they were brave enough
to overcome their fear.
285
00:25:52,251 --> 00:25:55,334
It's true that deep down inside,
286
00:25:55,959 --> 00:26:00,792
I wanted to prove
that I was just as brave
287
00:26:02,959 --> 00:26:06,876
as my friends
who had become pilots and so forth.
288
00:26:07,334 --> 00:26:13,042
And as a homosexual,
at that moment in my life
289
00:26:13,209 --> 00:26:17,834
it was one of my fears that I'd
lack the courage to do such things.
290
00:26:18,001 --> 00:26:21,876
In that sense,
you shared the prejudice of others.
291
00:26:22,042 --> 00:26:27,751
You felt that being homosexual would
make you less brave than the others?
292
00:26:27,917 --> 00:26:29,459
Yes, I was afraid of that.
293
00:26:29,626 --> 00:26:31,126
- Afraid?
- Yes.
294
00:26:31,584 --> 00:26:36,584
Do you think the fact that you were a man
of the theatre made you more inclined
295
00:26:36,751 --> 00:26:39,876
- to go underground?
- Very much so.
296
00:26:40,501 --> 00:26:47,376
I was a transvestite singer in Paris
in "Le Grand Ecart" for three months,
297
00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:50,501
and in "La Cave Caucasienne"
for a long time.
298
00:28:39,084 --> 00:28:45,584
We supplied the group we had formed
with parachutes from London
299
00:28:46,001 --> 00:28:51,667
with the aim of preventing
the passage of German troops.
300
00:28:53,126 --> 00:28:57,042
And we sent Denis Rake
as a radio operator.
301
00:28:57,209 --> 00:29:02,251
"The Mont Mouchet,"
like most of the Maquis groups
302
00:29:02,417 --> 00:29:05,959
consisted of members
from the forced labour group
303
00:29:06,334 --> 00:29:08,542
which was based in Auvergne.
304
00:29:08,709 --> 00:29:14,709
What we didn't know was that on the
night Denis Rake arrived in France,
305
00:29:15,084 --> 00:29:18,834
the Germans made an all-out attack
306
00:29:20,042 --> 00:29:25,459
and Denis Rake landed
smack in the middle of the battle.
307
00:29:25,834 --> 00:29:30,417
He spent the night in a tree,
which he climbed down the next day
308
00:29:30,626 --> 00:29:35,667
in order to send us a message saying
he'd arrived rather unexpectedly
309
00:29:35,834 --> 00:29:37,751
and that all was well.
310
00:29:37,959 --> 00:29:41,334
Gaspar was in charge of the Maquis.
311
00:29:41,501 --> 00:29:45,126
I must say that I'm very proud
of my pseudonym "Gaspar"
312
00:29:45,292 --> 00:29:48,001
because friends, as you saw earlier
313
00:29:48,376 --> 00:29:51,209
wouldn't have called me Mr Coulaudon.
314
00:29:51,376 --> 00:29:57,584
Coulaudon is a well-known name,
but in my job, it doesn't matter.
315
00:29:57,751 --> 00:30:01,251
It's an everyday name 30 years later.
316
00:30:04,417 --> 00:30:11,167
Our mission was to find a Maquis
led by a man named Gaspar.
317
00:30:11,334 --> 00:30:13,459
- In Mont Mouchet?
- That's right.
318
00:30:13,792 --> 00:30:17,667
He was an incredible man,
and he put up an impressive fight.
319
00:30:18,084 --> 00:30:22,001
But he was greedy:
320
00:30:22,167 --> 00:30:25,042
greedy for glory,
greedy for everything.
321
00:30:27,917 --> 00:30:31,126
We had the feeling
that Gaspar had won the approval,
322
00:30:31,292 --> 00:30:35,542
the love and affection of the people
323
00:30:35,751 --> 00:30:40,751
the patriots that followed him,
an unquestionably great leader.
324
00:30:41,334 --> 00:30:44,417
This is where the Resistance
began in Auvergne.
325
00:30:44,792 --> 00:30:47,792
This is where we formed
our first group.
326
00:30:48,209 --> 00:30:52,334
Back then, we had a dog
we had named de Gaulle.
327
00:30:52,542 --> 00:30:57,667
De Gaulle latched on to us
and stuck with us during both winters.
328
00:31:06,209 --> 00:31:08,126
What is that monument?
329
00:31:08,292 --> 00:31:11,667
It was built in memory
of our first man to be killed.
330
00:31:11,917 --> 00:31:16,042
When the Germans
surrounded the village,
331
00:31:16,209 --> 00:31:19,542
we couldn't get in
because of the snow.
332
00:31:19,709 --> 00:31:22,709
We were all on exercise,
except four young men
333
00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:26,251
who stayed behind
because they hadn't healed.
334
00:31:26,417 --> 00:31:30,209
And these four young men
were taken by the Germans.
335
00:31:30,417 --> 00:31:35,626
Early that morning, they followed
the less snowy train tracks
336
00:31:35,792 --> 00:31:37,917
checked out the lie of the land
337
00:31:38,084 --> 00:31:41,876
and headed to our cottage,
thinking they'd get us all.
338
00:31:42,792 --> 00:31:47,084
There were four young men, one of whom
came out barefoot in the snow,
339
00:31:47,292 --> 00:31:51,667
a 19-year-old boy from Volvic,
a village we'll see later.
340
00:31:51,876 --> 00:31:55,251
We called him Milamon.
A relative of his, Jean Lainé,
341
00:31:55,834 --> 00:32:00,126
tried to machine-gun down the Germans,
who then killed him.
342
00:32:00,292 --> 00:32:03,334
We found his body
strewn across the snow.
343
00:32:03,542 --> 00:32:05,292
He died immediately.
344
00:32:05,459 --> 00:32:09,959
A second boy was killed in his bed.
345
00:32:10,167 --> 00:32:13,501
He didn't even have time to get up
before being taken.
346
00:32:13,709 --> 00:32:17,959
There were two young men left.
One hid in a trunk, he was so small.
347
00:32:18,334 --> 00:32:20,126
He was 19 years old.
348
00:32:20,792 --> 00:32:24,667
- What was the boy's name again?
- Chevalier.
349
00:32:24,834 --> 00:32:29,667
No, it was Fifteen Grams.
Fifteen Grams or Four Pounds.
350
00:32:30,084 --> 00:32:31,251
Fifteen Grams.
351
00:32:32,542 --> 00:32:34,251
That was all the boy weighed.
352
00:32:34,542 --> 00:32:36,542
He was also taken here.
353
00:32:40,292 --> 00:32:46,042
One thing I find appalling is when
people who were Pétain supporters
354
00:32:46,292 --> 00:32:49,876
come up and tell me
what they did for the Resistance.
355
00:32:50,042 --> 00:32:54,251
Sometimes, it's unreal.
"Oh Mr Gaspar,
356
00:32:54,459 --> 00:33:00,501
“if only you knew what we did,
what I did for the Resistance..."
357
00:33:00,667 --> 00:33:02,459
Go ahead, pal, tell me all about it.
358
00:33:02,667 --> 00:33:07,292
I try to stay calm. I'm a salesman
and I want to sell my product.
359
00:33:08,167 --> 00:33:13,001
The company doesn't pay me
to do politics and pick fights.
360
00:33:13,251 --> 00:33:18,251
So sometimes I find myself obliged
to listen to a song and dance
361
00:33:18,459 --> 00:33:22,667
of some guy who shows me a drawer
and gets his wife to confirm
362
00:33:22,792 --> 00:33:27,667
that there was indeed a revolver
in that drawer during the war
363
00:33:27,876 --> 00:33:32,126
a revolver which he was supposedly
ready to use on the Germans.
364
00:33:32,292 --> 00:33:36,501
Only he never actually used it.
History doesn't lie.
365
00:33:40,042 --> 00:33:43,792
As you know, I was a non-commissioned
officer in the French army.
366
00:33:44,834 --> 00:33:49,501
I can see your question coming.
Didn't I skip a few ranks?
367
00:33:49,709 --> 00:33:52,751
But what could I have done?
368
00:33:53,251 --> 00:33:57,042
In fact, one man, a friend of mine
369
00:33:57,251 --> 00:34:00,001
was saying in the car earlier,
370
00:34:00,167 --> 00:34:02,876
"Didn't you go to school?"
No, I laughed.
371
00:34:03,042 --> 00:34:06,584
The best I did, in the words
of the former mayor of Combronde
372
00:34:06,709 --> 00:34:09,834
was the school of crime,
which is nothing more
373
00:34:10,001 --> 00:34:15,667
than our mandatory answer
to those who were killing our friends.
374
00:34:16,876 --> 00:34:20,751
- There's one thing you're forgetting.
- What?
375
00:34:20,917 --> 00:34:24,834
When de Gaulle, from London,
invited every French officer,
376
00:34:25,001 --> 00:34:29,459
every last lazy good-for-nothing
to join the Maquis,
377
00:34:29,667 --> 00:34:32,167
if they had answered his call...
378
00:34:32,876 --> 00:34:39,376
If they had, the Resistance
could have avoided certain mistakes.
379
00:34:40,126 --> 00:34:44,459
They were hiding in the woods
like children from the Germans.
380
00:34:44,626 --> 00:34:47,001
They didn't want to work for them.
381
00:34:47,126 --> 00:34:50,626
These admirable patriots
could definitely have used
382
00:34:50,709 --> 00:34:54,626
the help and leadership
of the French officers
383
00:34:54,834 --> 00:34:57,959
who were busy
warming their feet by the fire...
384
00:34:58,126 --> 00:35:00,042
Don't try to deny it.
385
00:35:00,334 --> 00:35:02,542
I know many people who are guilty.
386
00:35:02,626 --> 00:35:04,167
That's the truth.
387
00:35:04,334 --> 00:35:07,042
Many people I knew
just stayed at home.
388
00:35:07,251 --> 00:35:12,334
I asked them, at the time, why they
didn't follow their friends' lead.
389
00:35:12,709 --> 00:35:17,834
They claimed they didn't know how
to get in touch with the Resistance.
390
00:35:18,251 --> 00:35:22,292
Somehow, an old fool like me
knew how and they didn't.
391
00:35:22,709 --> 00:35:26,167
If we could do it again,
would you still make me a colonel,
392
00:35:26,459 --> 00:35:31,376
or would you bring me down
to staff sergeant or adjutant?
393
00:35:31,667 --> 00:35:36,376
If I've understood correctly,
Colonel Gaspar wants to know if
394
00:35:36,584 --> 00:35:42,626
25 years down the road,
you'd still be willing to trust him.
395
00:35:42,792 --> 00:35:47,292
Exactly. I believe that
it's because of men like him
396
00:35:47,501 --> 00:35:52,709
that we accomplished something.
No thanks to those who stayed home.
397
00:35:53,084 --> 00:35:56,459
- Mark my words.
- This isn't a referendum here.
398
00:35:59,667 --> 00:36:02,792
He mixes everything up.
I'm trying to talk politics.
399
00:36:03,209 --> 00:36:07,917
But it's what I wanted to hear.
Today, a new type of neo-Nazism
400
00:36:08,084 --> 00:36:10,292
is slowly rearing its ugly head
401
00:36:10,501 --> 00:36:17,459
which is why I feel it's important
we participate in these interviews.
402
00:36:17,667 --> 00:36:21,751
We said "nyet" because we thought
and continue to think
403
00:36:21,917 --> 00:36:27,917
that we must not mix things up,
as the veterans of Verdun have done.
404
00:36:28,084 --> 00:36:32,709
Those men were heroes,
but they've been caught in a trap.
405
00:36:32,876 --> 00:36:36,417
I believe there's a risk
that either Nazism will re-emerge,
406
00:36:36,626 --> 00:36:39,667
or some form of Nazism
under a different name.
407
00:36:40,001 --> 00:36:44,501
A rose by any other name
is still a rose.
408
00:36:45,709 --> 00:36:50,126
Hang on a minute. There's one thing
we often tend to forget.
409
00:36:50,584 --> 00:36:53,501
The Germans were Nazis. Fine.
410
00:36:53,709 --> 00:36:56,792
But were the French
any better than the Nazis?
411
00:36:57,001 --> 00:36:59,001
- Stop it.
- I had a woman shot,
412
00:36:59,167 --> 00:37:02,042
a 60-year-old woman
who had sold me to the Gestapo.
413
00:37:02,126 --> 00:37:07,417
She sold me for money. So did my son,
for thirty pieces of silver.
414
00:37:07,584 --> 00:37:11,376
The people in Auvergne, in a
country where we unwisely took risks,
415
00:37:11,542 --> 00:37:14,459
like in Brittany, Vercors,
or anywhere else
416
00:37:14,709 --> 00:37:19,709
who wanted to find the Resistance
had no problem finding it,
417
00:37:19,917 --> 00:37:22,417
if that person really wanted to fight,
418
00:37:22,792 --> 00:37:29,334
or even to fight in the underground
without necessarily going all out.
419
00:37:29,751 --> 00:37:34,334
Our goal, first and foremost,
was to attempt
420
00:37:34,501 --> 00:37:39,542
to create a climate
of psychological fear for the Germans
421
00:37:39,876 --> 00:37:43,542
to keep them in a state of fear
to cut off communications lines,
422
00:37:43,626 --> 00:37:46,792
and hopefully blow everything up.
423
00:37:47,167 --> 00:37:51,001
That was it.
The goal wasn't to kill the Germans.
424
00:37:51,167 --> 00:37:55,209
Why bother killing
10, 20, 50, or even 100 Germans?
425
00:37:55,376 --> 00:37:57,584
Come on. Please. Not at all.
426
00:37:57,792 --> 00:38:03,084
Our goal was basically
to prevent them...
427
00:38:03,459 --> 00:38:06,584
If you don't mind,
I'd like to add something.
428
00:38:06,751 --> 00:38:10,251
Our goal was never to be
an army facing another army.
429
00:38:10,417 --> 00:38:13,834
And yet, what eventually happened,
430
00:38:14,209 --> 00:38:18,042
due to ever-increasing enthusiasm,
431
00:38:18,376 --> 00:38:21,459
was that we ended up
with 10,000 armed men.
432
00:38:23,626 --> 00:38:25,834
Allow me to give an example.
433
00:38:25,959 --> 00:38:28,709
A detachment of
our troops near Clermont
434
00:38:29,084 --> 00:38:33,667
passes in front of 20-odd peasants
digging up potatoes.
435
00:38:39,209 --> 00:38:43,084
Suddenly, they all drop their tools,
dash towards their guns
436
00:38:43,542 --> 00:38:47,751
and proceed to
shoot 14 of our men dead.
437
00:38:57,751 --> 00:39:01,626
- Do you consider that a partisan war?
- No.
438
00:39:01,792 --> 00:39:06,501
For me, partisans are people who
wear armbands, helmets and the like.
439
00:39:22,792 --> 00:39:26,876
What happened in that potato field
was assassination.
440
00:39:27,917 --> 00:39:31,292
You must admit
that we were obliged to react.
441
00:39:31,459 --> 00:39:34,584
I'd even say that it was our duty,
as officers
442
00:39:34,751 --> 00:39:38,001
to demand security measures
for our troops.
443
00:39:44,542 --> 00:39:49,417
After Liberation, I was given the task
of guarding German prisoners.
444
00:39:50,001 --> 00:39:52,584
I supervised a whole unit,
445
00:39:53,126 --> 00:39:56,417
but I never hurt them
and I never yelled at them.
446
00:39:57,292 --> 00:40:00,167
If I'd treated them
the way they'd treated me
447
00:40:00,417 --> 00:40:03,459
I wouldn't have been
any better than them.
448
00:40:03,626 --> 00:40:06,709
And I didn't want that.
449
00:40:09,709 --> 00:40:16,751
These old guys were all veterans
from WWI, the Shupo, the police.
450
00:40:16,959 --> 00:40:19,126
What could we possibly do
with men like that?
451
00:40:19,292 --> 00:40:21,001
They hadn't hurt us.
452
00:40:21,126 --> 00:40:25,751
The people who had hurt us
had taken off at high speed.
453
00:40:25,876 --> 00:40:27,417
They were long gone.
454
00:40:27,709 --> 00:40:31,042
But these old guys
had clone us no harm.
455
00:40:31,209 --> 00:40:34,751
I remember one of these men
had broken his gun.
456
00:40:34,917 --> 00:40:39,459
This man gave me an apple
as we were marching.
457
00:40:39,584 --> 00:40:41,334
We'd been marching for three days,
458
00:40:41,584 --> 00:40:46,459
and as we walked along,
the old guy slipped me an apple.
459
00:40:46,667 --> 00:40:48,417
See what I mean?
460
00:40:49,709 --> 00:40:54,334
That was the day we'd had
one loaf of bread for 22 men.
461
00:40:54,584 --> 00:40:59,126
In the afternoon, of that same clay,
at 3:00, we were liberated.
462
00:41:00,084 --> 00:41:05,501
To be a member of the Resistance,
did you need political training?
463
00:41:06,459 --> 00:41:11,042
- No.
- What was your family background?
464
00:41:11,209 --> 00:41:15,501
My family background
was always rather left wing.
465
00:41:15,709 --> 00:41:19,417
I was never an extremist,
but I was always left wing.
466
00:41:20,626 --> 00:41:25,292
- So what were you then?
- I was a Socialist.
467
00:41:25,459 --> 00:41:28,042
I'm still a Socialist today.
468
00:41:29,334 --> 00:41:31,126
And I'm proud of it.
469
00:41:31,626 --> 00:41:36,876
Although the Party has a few people
which really should be...
470
00:41:37,292 --> 00:41:40,792
They're people like me,
who are getting old.
471
00:41:40,959 --> 00:41:44,876
Why get 80-year-old people
to govern our country?
472
00:41:45,042 --> 00:41:47,709
We should put them out to pasture.
473
00:41:48,167 --> 00:41:52,501
People say that some peasants
got rich during the war.
474
00:41:52,792 --> 00:41:54,334
There are some.
475
00:41:54,751 --> 00:41:57,167
There are some, that's for sure.
476
00:41:57,251 --> 00:42:01,626
Maybe it would have been better
to get rich on the black market.
477
00:42:01,834 --> 00:42:04,959
Then I'd be rich
and everyone would like me.
478
00:42:05,334 --> 00:42:08,626
But I was in the Resistance,
so they think I'm dumb.
479
00:42:10,667 --> 00:42:12,626
And rightly so!
480
00:42:13,167 --> 00:42:17,417
Do you think
that having been in the Resistance
481
00:42:19,417 --> 00:42:23,417
gives you a good or bad reputation
482
00:42:23,709 --> 00:42:25,959
in the minds of others?
483
00:42:26,334 --> 00:42:29,959
I think it has always given us
a bad reputation.
484
00:42:30,126 --> 00:42:36,334
Because when we were active,
they called us terrorists
485
00:42:36,584 --> 00:42:38,626
- Or bandits.
- Yes, bandits.
486
00:42:39,126 --> 00:42:44,542
- Many people still believe this.
- Some even called us profiteers.
487
00:42:44,917 --> 00:42:47,667
Yes, because we did parachuting.
488
00:42:47,834 --> 00:42:52,292
There were some people
who claimed to be in the Resistance
489
00:42:52,501 --> 00:42:56,126
and took advantage of this
to steal and loot.
490
00:42:56,501 --> 00:43:00,876
- That's why many people think...
- They were thieves.
491
00:43:01,376 --> 00:43:03,834
Weren't there two types of Resistance?
492
00:43:04,001 --> 00:43:09,876
There was the anti-German side,
and then the anti-Nazi side.
493
00:43:10,084 --> 00:43:13,459
For us, German or Nazi,
they were both the same.
494
00:43:13,667 --> 00:43:15,626
They were one and the same.
495
00:43:15,792 --> 00:43:22,084
I used to feel that we should distinguish
between the German people and the Nazis.
496
00:43:22,459 --> 00:43:27,709
But after I was taken prisoner,
thrashed, and fed by catapult...
497
00:43:27,876 --> 00:43:31,084
I'm sorry, but I reacted
like any hungry man
498
00:43:31,292 --> 00:43:33,876
and considered them one and the same.
499
00:43:34,042 --> 00:43:40,334
There were some Germans
who weren't Nazis in their heart.
500
00:43:41,292 --> 00:43:45,792
But those Germans
were in the concentration camps.
501
00:43:46,001 --> 00:43:50,917
Don't forget that concentration camps
opened in Germany in 1933.
502
00:43:51,751 --> 00:43:53,417
All Germans were Nazis.
503
00:43:53,751 --> 00:43:57,376
Any Communists in Germany
were sent to the camps.
504
00:43:57,542 --> 00:44:00,167
And when you met a German in a camp,
505
00:44:00,417 --> 00:44:03,667
it wasn't like hurting a Communist.
506
00:44:03,834 --> 00:44:08,626
- Did any Communists join the Nazis?
- Of course not.
507
00:44:08,834 --> 00:44:12,792
But I wasn't about to ask them.
I don't speak German.
508
00:44:15,292 --> 00:44:19,626
The Germans we fought in Auvergne
were all Nazis.
509
00:44:19,834 --> 00:44:24,042
- Or members of the SS.
- Nazis or members of the SS.
510
00:44:24,667 --> 00:44:28,126
- That was it.
- Did you kill any Krauts?
511
00:44:29,959 --> 00:44:34,709
Probably, but we didn't see it.
When you are in a hole
512
00:44:34,834 --> 00:44:39,334
standing behind your machine gun,
you don't know what you've hit.
513
00:44:39,667 --> 00:44:41,417
And bad Frenchmen?
514
00:44:41,751 --> 00:44:45,626
I knew many bad Frenchmen,
but I never killed any of them.
515
00:44:46,167 --> 00:44:48,626
- And the rest of you?
- Me neither.
516
00:44:50,209 --> 00:44:54,001
I was already a black sheep,
the odd man out.
517
00:44:56,167 --> 00:44:59,834
I had married an American divorcée,
a Grossfeld to boot.
518
00:45:00,251 --> 00:45:04,459
I had done many things:
I had smoked opium,
519
00:45:04,626 --> 00:45:07,876
I had written
many extraordinary articles,
520
00:45:08,001 --> 00:45:12,334
and I was considered a black sheep,
one who would never succeed.
521
00:45:12,542 --> 00:45:16,834
It's always a shock for society
to see a black sheep succeed.
522
00:45:17,167 --> 00:45:21,501
Despite my weakness for Communists,
523
00:45:21,751 --> 00:45:25,126
the day I became a minister,
my family accepted me.
524
00:45:26,292 --> 00:45:28,959
But what did I find in the Resistance?
525
00:45:29,126 --> 00:45:32,792
The most important thing for me,
other than dignity
526
00:45:32,876 --> 00:45:35,792
was that it was truly
a classless society.
527
00:45:36,626 --> 00:45:40,376
The problems of everyday life
ceased to exist.
528
00:45:40,834 --> 00:45:43,126
We were very free.
529
00:45:43,376 --> 00:45:45,584
What I'm going to say may sound mean,
530
00:45:45,917 --> 00:45:49,959
but I think that to be in the
Resistance, you had to be maladjusted.
531
00:45:50,834 --> 00:45:54,876
We were free in the sense that,
as outcasts of society,
532
00:45:55,042 --> 00:46:00,751
the organisation of society
no longer concerned us in the least.
533
00:46:01,584 --> 00:46:05,917
You can't imagine a real Resistance
activist being a full-fledged minister,
534
00:46:06,084 --> 00:46:11,542
or a colonel or a businessman.
Such people have succeeded.
535
00:46:11,709 --> 00:46:16,001
They would succeed
with Germans, Englishmen or Russians.
536
00:46:16,251 --> 00:46:19,834
But we were failures
and I was one of those failures.
537
00:46:21,001 --> 00:46:25,417
We had quixotic feelings
that are so typical of failures.
538
00:46:25,959 --> 00:46:28,584
Some people are Resistants by nature.
539
00:46:29,001 --> 00:46:33,501
In other words,
some people are naturally headstrong.
540
00:46:34,917 --> 00:46:40,334
Others, on the contrary,
try to adapt to the circumstances,
541
00:46:40,542 --> 00:46:43,917
and get what they can out of it.
542
00:46:44,376 --> 00:46:50,542
If you are a Resistant over everything
and nothing, you're exaggerating.
543
00:46:50,709 --> 00:46:54,501
But if you accept everything,
you're lying.
544
00:46:54,709 --> 00:46:56,042
There were six of us:
545
00:46:56,209 --> 00:46:59,709
a gas-company worker, a pimp,
a public transport worker,
546
00:46:59,917 --> 00:47:03,376
a butcher from Quipavas
and others like that.
547
00:47:04,084 --> 00:47:06,209
On the quay of Port-Vendres,
548
00:47:06,751 --> 00:47:11,042
I found men who were simply men
who had fled like others had fled,
549
00:47:11,334 --> 00:47:16,042
like I had fled,
who asked me what they could do.
550
00:47:16,209 --> 00:47:18,959
I said, "Why not join the Resistance?"
551
00:47:19,751 --> 00:47:23,209
I went down along the coast
until I reached,
552
00:47:25,167 --> 00:47:30,167
in St-Jean-de-Luz, an English ship
with orders to take no Frenchmen,
553
00:47:30,334 --> 00:47:33,542
only a Polish division
on its way to London.
554
00:47:33,751 --> 00:47:37,334
So I said, "Let's go to headquarters,
555
00:47:38,167 --> 00:47:42,334
"the 5th Marine Bureau,
where we can do something."
556
00:47:42,876 --> 00:47:45,042
And so I went to Collioure.
557
00:47:45,126 --> 00:47:47,792
The office had been
set up in a brothel,
558
00:47:47,917 --> 00:47:52,126
because there was
nothing else available in the area.
559
00:47:52,292 --> 00:47:54,584
They said, "Why resist? You're mad."
560
00:47:54,751 --> 00:47:57,042
And they demobilised me.
561
00:47:57,292 --> 00:48:00,292
I went to Marseilles,
where, with a few men,
562
00:48:00,459 --> 00:48:03,542
I realised we had to fight in France,
not abroad.
563
00:48:04,501 --> 00:48:10,251
We were all aware of the fact that
we were appealing to the patriots,
564
00:48:10,459 --> 00:48:15,667
who saw that we were people
who actually fought,
565
00:48:16,209 --> 00:48:22,167
whereas many other people were
just full of talk about resisting.
566
00:48:22,334 --> 00:48:25,959
We weren't talkers, we were fighters.
567
00:48:26,292 --> 00:48:31,542
The patriots had seen the amazing
gesture of a militant Communist,
568
00:48:31,751 --> 00:48:37,584
who was perhaps unaware
of the effect this gesture would have.
569
00:48:37,792 --> 00:48:41,834
Just before being shot
by the Nazis in Chateaubriand,
570
00:48:42,167 --> 00:48:45,459
the metallurgist
Jean-Pierre Timbaud cried out,
571
00:48:45,626 --> 00:48:48,501
"Long live the
German Communist Party!"
572
00:48:48,709 --> 00:48:50,751
And that, you see...
573
00:48:51,584 --> 00:48:54,709
Why are you anti-Communist, Colonel?
574
00:48:57,167 --> 00:49:01,459
The main reason is
that I'm a Catholic.
575
00:49:01,584 --> 00:49:04,084
I know they helped the Resistance,
576
00:49:04,501 --> 00:49:07,126
and I'm also aware of the fact that
577
00:49:11,959 --> 00:49:15,292
they participated, for the most part,
578
00:49:16,001 --> 00:49:17,959
in their own interests,
579
00:49:19,084 --> 00:49:22,667
in order to defend Russia,
580
00:49:23,001 --> 00:49:27,209
Communist Russia,
which is their motherland.
581
00:49:28,709 --> 00:49:31,001
Russia is their motherland?
582
00:49:31,251 --> 00:49:34,751
Although they claim
to be international,
583
00:49:34,834 --> 00:49:40,376
Russia is, after all,
the country that defends their ideals.
584
00:49:41,126 --> 00:49:43,667
Our main disagreement
was the following:
585
00:49:44,084 --> 00:49:47,584
Should we aim to be a reserve army,
586
00:49:48,001 --> 00:49:51,042
or an army that grows strong
through battle?
587
00:49:51,417 --> 00:49:53,584
Both sides had different opinions.
588
00:49:53,751 --> 00:49:59,334
How did you manage to reconcile
these differences in the Resistance?
589
00:49:59,501 --> 00:50:02,126
I wasn't very good at it.
590
00:50:02,917 --> 00:50:06,501
Indeed, as regional leader in Limoges,
591
00:50:06,667 --> 00:50:10,459
I never once made contact
with the Communists.
592
00:50:10,667 --> 00:50:14,917
- Although you were supposed to?
- Although I was ordered to.
593
00:50:15,501 --> 00:50:18,126
- And the order came from London?
- Yes.
594
00:50:18,501 --> 00:50:24,084
The army ranks generally viewed us
as dangerous people,
595
00:50:24,292 --> 00:50:30,001
who were prepared to shed blood
for reasons they felt inadequate.
596
00:50:34,459 --> 00:50:39,001
We were surprised
by London's insistence
597
00:50:39,376 --> 00:50:43,001
that we join together
in fighting for the Resistance.
598
00:50:44,834 --> 00:50:51,959
We felt that it would be dangerous
to arm these Communists.
599
00:50:52,167 --> 00:50:55,084
After all, some of these Communists
600
00:50:56,126 --> 00:50:58,751
were not very commendable people.
601
00:50:59,834 --> 00:51:04,001
We feared this would
lead to problems after Liberation.
602
00:51:04,292 --> 00:51:09,292
From what I've understood, you were
in charge of the assault groups.
603
00:51:09,626 --> 00:51:11,959
Did you participate in any assaults?
604
00:51:12,167 --> 00:51:14,959
I did some sabotage,
605
00:51:15,126 --> 00:51:18,667
but I never assaulted anyone.
What I mean is
606
00:51:19,417 --> 00:51:23,751
that I never deliberately shot down
a German in the street.
607
00:51:23,917 --> 00:51:27,292
- But you would have?
- Yes, had it been my job,
608
00:51:27,459 --> 00:51:30,209
but that was not my responsibility.
609
00:51:31,084 --> 00:51:35,167
You say the Communists
were not very commendable people.
610
00:51:35,334 --> 00:51:39,959
For example, some of the Communists
they had recruited
611
00:51:41,376 --> 00:51:47,917
were condemned people, for example.
612
00:51:48,876 --> 00:51:51,001
It was due to these conditions
613
00:51:51,376 --> 00:51:56,167
that we praised the action taken
by Pierre George, Colonel Fabien,
614
00:51:56,501 --> 00:51:59,917
who killed a German in the metro.
615
00:52:00,084 --> 00:52:03,334
People had to get used to fighting.
616
00:52:03,501 --> 00:52:06,292
There were two ways of seeing things.
617
00:52:06,459 --> 00:52:11,417
All over Paris, there were lists
of those who had been killed.
618
00:52:11,584 --> 00:52:16,751
Either you could give in to despair,
and resign yourself to do nothing,
619
00:52:16,834 --> 00:52:18,459
or you could fight.
620
00:52:19,042 --> 00:52:22,667
The army would give orders to attack,
621
00:52:22,959 --> 00:52:27,792
whereas the Communists were in favour
of immediate guerrilla warfare,
622
00:52:27,959 --> 00:52:33,042
in the form of
assassinations or sabotage.
623
00:52:35,501 --> 00:52:39,167
They were disobeying the orders
we'd been sent from London.
624
00:52:39,751 --> 00:52:42,834
We thought to ourselves
625
00:52:44,167 --> 00:52:47,667
that orders of that nature
shouldn't be obeyed,
626
00:52:47,834 --> 00:52:51,417
and we, of all people,
used one of de Gaulle's sayings,
627
00:52:51,792 --> 00:52:54,251
which we twisted around, and said,
628
00:52:54,417 --> 00:52:59,417
"National insurrection
goes hand in hand with liberation."
629
00:53:00,001 --> 00:53:02,792
The Resistance was
a permanent guerrilla war.
630
00:53:02,959 --> 00:53:08,667
It was three guys who intercepted
a German convoy on the road,
631
00:53:08,792 --> 00:53:14,251
threw three grenades, shot two rounds,
and took off in the wilderness.
632
00:53:15,084 --> 00:53:20,334
And this proved to be the only way
of training and keeping fighters.
633
00:53:20,501 --> 00:53:24,292
Do you have the impression
that France today
634
00:53:24,667 --> 00:53:27,751
has been somewhat determined
635
00:53:27,917 --> 00:53:32,751
by the way it was during WWII,
or at least from '39 to '44?
636
00:53:33,126 --> 00:53:34,959
I'm convinced of it.
637
00:53:35,084 --> 00:53:40,917
The proof of this is that
de Gaulle began his life,
638
00:53:42,126 --> 00:53:43,834
his political life,
639
00:53:44,501 --> 00:53:46,542
by a breach of trust.
640
00:53:47,126 --> 00:53:49,709
This breach of trust was rather odd.
641
00:53:49,834 --> 00:53:52,584
I think that if in 1940
642
00:53:52,959 --> 00:53:59,501
we had had the same referendum
we had a few days ago, on April 27,
643
00:53:59,751 --> 00:54:03,042
some 90% of the French population
644
00:54:03,251 --> 00:54:07,042
would have voted for Pétain
and a quiet German occupation.
645
00:54:07,917 --> 00:54:11,084
So he was
at complete odds with history.
646
00:54:13,542 --> 00:54:18,459
The Free French
do not accept this defeat.
647
00:54:18,959 --> 00:54:22,876
The Free French do not consent
to the idea that,
648
00:54:23,167 --> 00:54:27,709
on the pretext of
European unification,
649
00:54:27,876 --> 00:54:31,709
their country should
be used by the enemy
650
00:54:31,876 --> 00:54:36,917
as a departure point
for attacking other peoples,
651
00:54:37,084 --> 00:54:40,584
who are fighting for the same ideals.
652
00:54:40,876 --> 00:54:44,251
Until the day
we met the main player...
653
00:54:44,417 --> 00:54:48,001
until the clay I said,
"I want to see de Gaulle,"
654
00:54:48,167 --> 00:54:50,667
it didn't go so well.
655
00:54:54,459 --> 00:54:57,959
I found myself facing a man
who astounded me,
656
00:54:59,042 --> 00:55:03,792
because he was already
quite simply the King of France.
657
00:55:04,001 --> 00:55:09,126
- But his subjects didn't know him.
- He was a king without subjects.
658
00:55:24,167 --> 00:55:28,126
There are two things we
still haven't fully understood today
659
00:55:29,834 --> 00:55:34,667
concerning the position
of de Gaulle and the Free French.
660
00:55:35,292 --> 00:55:40,917
In England at that time, there
were several foreign governments,
661
00:55:41,167 --> 00:55:43,334
but they were all governments,
662
00:55:43,459 --> 00:55:46,292
whereas de Gaulle
and the Free French were not.
663
00:55:47,876 --> 00:55:51,376
All the other powers here in London
664
00:55:52,584 --> 00:55:58,626
had come with their governments:
the Dutch, Belgians, Norwegians.
665
00:55:58,792 --> 00:56:03,126
Their governments in London
were the same as the ones at home.
666
00:56:03,334 --> 00:56:07,584
But this wasn't the case in France,
as Pétain was still in power.
667
00:56:07,959 --> 00:56:14,126
Is that not the worst accusation of
Pétain and the Vichy administration
668
00:56:14,251 --> 00:56:16,876
that one could possibly make?
669
00:56:18,459 --> 00:56:21,959
After all, France is
the only country guilty of this.
670
00:56:24,751 --> 00:56:26,626
Yes, that's true.
671
00:56:27,667 --> 00:56:30,501
At the heart of the debate,
672
00:56:31,042 --> 00:56:35,876
it is true that de Gaulle,
because his means were so limited,
673
00:56:36,001 --> 00:56:38,376
because his army was so small,
674
00:56:38,584 --> 00:56:42,751
and the territories behind him
so secondary,
675
00:56:43,376 --> 00:56:47,667
that he really had no other choice
676
00:56:47,834 --> 00:56:50,376
than to be extremely rigid,
677
00:56:50,709 --> 00:56:55,501
to be a stickler
for the rights he represented.
678
00:56:55,709 --> 00:57:01,709
- His pride became a weapon.
- It's true that his pride, tenacity
679
00:57:03,251 --> 00:57:08,501
and rather inflexible nature
did not make things any easier.
680
00:57:10,751 --> 00:57:15,126
But I do think that
politically thinking, he was right.
681
00:57:15,334 --> 00:57:18,251
Understand that politically,
he was right.
682
00:57:55,042 --> 00:57:57,959
Pierre Mendés-France,
flying officer in '39,
683
00:57:58,167 --> 00:58:01,542
was accused of desertion
by the Vichy regime,
684
00:58:01,751 --> 00:58:04,834
and sentenced
by the Clermont military tribunal.
685
00:58:05,001 --> 00:58:08,167
The former prime minister
managed to escape
686
00:58:08,542 --> 00:58:11,001
and arrived in London via Switzerland.
687
00:58:11,167 --> 00:58:17,376
I must admit that what happened in
France had traumatised me greatly.
688
00:58:18,251 --> 00:58:21,292
I had a difficult time
getting over the insult
689
00:58:21,542 --> 00:58:25,417
of having been accused of desertion
in face of the enemy.
690
00:58:25,626 --> 00:58:29,834
I felt a need to fight,
to prove that I was a fighter.
691
00:58:30,042 --> 00:58:33,834
When I arrived in London,
my choice was clear.
692
00:58:34,834 --> 00:58:38,042
- Because of the accusation of desertion?
- Yes.
693
00:58:39,376 --> 00:58:43,084
That night, I found myself facing
de Gaulle for the first time.
694
00:58:44,084 --> 00:58:48,126
He questioned me thoroughly
on the state of France,
695
00:58:48,501 --> 00:58:51,917
as he was obviously on the lookout
for information,
696
00:58:52,292 --> 00:58:58,501
and wanted to know
what people were thinking,
697
00:58:58,709 --> 00:59:01,667
how the French felt
towards the Resistance.
698
00:59:01,876 --> 00:59:05,667
I must admit that
meeting de Gaulle was
699
00:59:05,792 --> 00:59:09,584
for me an overwhelming thing.
700
00:59:10,251 --> 00:59:13,334
It was a deeply moving event.
701
00:59:13,501 --> 00:59:17,959
And I must say
that our first meeting went very well.
702
00:59:18,251 --> 00:59:22,209
Wasn't he cold? They say
that when people came from France...
703
00:59:22,417 --> 00:59:24,876
- That's true.
- He was happy, but...
704
00:59:25,042 --> 00:59:27,167
No, it's true.
705
00:59:28,376 --> 00:59:30,792
He was a shy man,
706
00:59:33,626 --> 00:59:40,209
and it was this shy nature of his that
was at the root of his cold manner
707
00:59:40,667 --> 00:59:43,042
of welcoming certain people.
708
00:59:44,042 --> 00:59:48,459
He wasn't cold to me, maybe because
we had a long conversation.
709
00:59:49,542 --> 00:59:53,292
What was the general spirit
of the Free French Fighters?
710
00:59:55,084 --> 01:00:00,251
It was... There's no denying
that it was a very unusual army.
711
01:00:00,376 --> 01:00:04,792
It was very limited in number,
because of the situation.
712
01:00:05,917 --> 01:00:12,001
They all arrived feeling, and let's
not mince words, rather humiliated,
713
01:00:12,209 --> 01:00:17,251
because the ruling
French government, Vichy,
714
01:00:17,334 --> 01:00:21,001
had signed the armistice
and abandoned England.
715
01:00:22,792 --> 01:00:26,876
They didn't know how welcomed
they would be in England.
716
01:00:28,251 --> 01:00:31,626
But they were welcomed with open arms.
717
01:00:31,917 --> 01:00:37,834
Every one of them
felt a deep sense of gratitude
718
01:00:38,001 --> 01:00:42,084
for the simple fact
that the English welcomed them.
719
01:00:42,376 --> 01:00:46,501
And then there was a sense of
admiration for the English people,
720
01:00:47,042 --> 01:00:50,209
who were the only ones
to stand up to the storm.
721
01:00:51,167 --> 01:00:55,959
What was unique
about the French pilots
722
01:00:56,084 --> 01:00:59,417
was the ever-present debate
723
01:00:59,834 --> 01:01:03,626
on whether or not
we had the right to bomb France.
724
01:01:05,292 --> 01:01:10,376
The Lorraine squadron was a unit
725
01:01:11,209 --> 01:01:14,626
whose planes didn't have
a very large field of action.
726
01:01:14,792 --> 01:01:18,917
So there was, unfortunately,
no way we could bomb Berlin.
727
01:01:19,417 --> 01:01:26,334
But the targets we were given
were often Belgium, Holland or France.
728
01:01:27,084 --> 01:01:29,792
And that was really a cruel dilemma.
729
01:02:12,667 --> 01:02:17,209
It was this preoccupation,
this haunting worry,
730
01:02:17,542 --> 01:02:20,376
which led us
to progressively specialise
731
01:02:21,376 --> 01:02:25,376
in a type of bombing
which had the fewest hitches,
732
01:02:25,542 --> 01:02:28,459
to use the term they employed then.
733
01:02:29,876 --> 01:02:34,084
It was a type of hedge-hopping.
We would bomb at very low altitudes,
734
01:02:34,251 --> 01:02:39,501
which was much riskier,
but allowed us greater accuracy.
735
01:02:51,292 --> 01:02:52,876
England victorious?
736
01:02:53,959 --> 01:02:57,042
Half of its regular navy has sunk,
737
01:02:57,917 --> 01:03:00,459
as has a third of its wartime navy.
738
01:03:00,667 --> 01:03:03,084
England has lost Europe.
739
01:03:03,251 --> 01:03:07,792
It is losing the very little influence
it had on the Soviets,
740
01:03:08,209 --> 01:03:11,376
and it is losing
its influence on India.
741
01:03:11,542 --> 01:03:13,959
England has been defeated.
742
01:03:20,709 --> 01:03:24,126
England's only way out
is to call in the Bolsheviks.
743
01:03:24,334 --> 01:03:28,626
But as a Frenchman, I'd be
afraid they'd stab us in the back.
744
01:03:30,834 --> 01:03:32,709
PRESIDENT LAVAL SPEAKS OUT
745
01:03:32,917 --> 01:03:35,834
"IF GERMANY DOESN'T WIN,
BOLSHEVISM WILL"
746
01:03:46,959 --> 01:03:49,209
My father-in-law's philosophy,
747
01:03:49,376 --> 01:03:53,001
the one often shared with the family,
748
01:03:53,542 --> 01:03:59,584
was that the only realistic solution
749
01:04:00,917 --> 01:04:03,459
was for our country to gain time
750
01:04:03,917 --> 01:04:09,876
while Germany got increasingly
involved in their war
751
01:04:10,167 --> 01:04:12,251
against the Russians,
752
01:04:13,376 --> 01:04:17,334
a war which, in his opinion,
would last for years,
753
01:04:18,209 --> 01:04:20,876
and in so doing, we would allow France
754
01:04:21,459 --> 01:04:25,376
to maintain its position in the world,
as well as its empire.
755
01:04:26,042 --> 01:04:28,626
On April 21, 1942,
756
01:04:29,084 --> 01:04:34,251
in an appeal to France, the head of
government stated to his listeners:
757
01:04:34,959 --> 01:04:39,542
I have meditated on
what I am now saying in my village,
758
01:04:40,292 --> 01:04:45,209
in the land of Auvergne,
to which I remain very attached.
759
01:04:48,792 --> 01:04:53,042
But the time spent in the privacy
of his own family was limited,
760
01:04:53,209 --> 01:04:57,167
and as the clock struck eight,
he had to return to work.
761
01:04:57,334 --> 01:05:02,209
He spent a few more moments
with the locals of the area
762
01:05:02,334 --> 01:05:06,417
who come every morning
to chat with him.
763
01:05:08,709 --> 01:05:12,876
I truly believe that the majority
of Frenchmen today
764
01:05:13,126 --> 01:05:17,834
realise that Pierre Laval
did all he could to defend them.
765
01:05:18,292 --> 01:05:22,834
You've seen for yourself,
as you visited the village today,
766
01:05:23,001 --> 01:05:27,001
and interviewed people
who saw Pierre Laval at work,
767
01:05:27,167 --> 01:05:29,417
that not one single person
768
01:05:29,542 --> 01:05:34,084
is willing to accuse Laval
of any outrageous crime.
769
01:05:34,834 --> 01:05:38,001
- You knew my father-in-law well?
- Yes.
770
01:05:39,542 --> 01:05:45,126
We knew each other quite well
during the period of 1936 to 1944.
771
01:05:45,292 --> 01:05:51,001
The last time I saw him was on the eve
of his permanent move to Paris.
772
01:05:51,209 --> 01:05:52,667
I never saw him again.
773
01:05:53,001 --> 01:05:55,834
But in Vichy,
I used to see him every day.
774
01:05:56,167 --> 01:06:01,292
We would discuss our problems,
from mineral water to sawmills.
775
01:06:01,501 --> 01:06:03,792
- Did you ever discuss politics?
- Never.
776
01:06:03,959 --> 01:06:06,584
No, we never discussed politics.
777
01:06:07,584 --> 01:06:12,334
Why did the whole of France
condemn him at that moment?
778
01:06:12,501 --> 01:06:15,292
The whole of France
didn't condemn him.
779
01:06:15,626 --> 01:06:17,209
Certainly not.
780
01:06:18,001 --> 01:06:21,376
Sometimes I'd visit him in the castle,
781
01:06:21,459 --> 01:06:24,334
and appeal to him
on behalf of my prisoners.
782
01:06:24,667 --> 01:06:26,501
Would you come here?
783
01:06:35,334 --> 01:06:37,001
- Hello, sir.
- Hello.
784
01:06:37,417 --> 01:06:43,792
These gentlemen are in Châteldon
making a film on the Occupation.
785
01:06:44,126 --> 01:06:47,959
- How old were you when war began?
- Twenty-five years old.
786
01:06:48,292 --> 01:06:52,084
- What regiment were you in?
- The 28th Artillery Regiment.
787
01:06:52,459 --> 01:06:57,834
- And what happened?
- We were taken prisoner on June 20.
788
01:06:58,126 --> 01:07:01,959
And then, after some hard times,
789
01:07:02,126 --> 01:07:07,251
as a favour from the President,
Mr Laval, I had the privilege
790
01:07:07,417 --> 01:07:10,876
of being repatriated to Châteldon.
791
01:07:11,542 --> 01:07:14,834
And I thank both him and the Countess.
792
01:07:15,084 --> 01:07:17,126
In what year did you return?
793
01:07:17,459 --> 01:07:21,542
I returned on October 17, 1941.
794
01:07:23,459 --> 01:07:29,126
It was certainly a big favour as
some had to stay until '45 or longer.
795
01:07:30,584 --> 01:07:35,167
So it was lucky to be taken prisoner
if you were from Châteldon?
796
01:07:35,334 --> 01:07:37,709
We were the privileged few.
797
01:07:42,167 --> 01:07:46,917
Today, Rene' Bousquet,
from the Ministry of the Interior,
798
01:07:47,126 --> 01:07:49,126
picked up the head of the government
799
01:07:49,251 --> 01:07:53,834
in order to make full use of the
20 minutes from Châteldon to Vichy.
800
01:07:55,667 --> 01:07:58,376
The secretary general made his report,
801
01:07:58,542 --> 01:08:03,501
and the man in charge knows
the decisions he must soon take.
802
01:08:04,417 --> 01:08:08,917
I say that if the Germans
had only had their own Gestapo,
803
01:08:09,084 --> 01:08:12,501
they couldn't have caused
half the harm they did.
804
01:08:12,667 --> 01:08:15,084
Yes, they killed people in the street,
805
01:08:15,709 --> 01:08:18,751
but it was
the French police who helped.
806
01:08:35,167 --> 01:08:39,917
If the French police had not helped
seek out the Communists,
807
01:08:40,167 --> 01:08:44,209
not to mention all the other patriots,
808
01:08:44,917 --> 01:08:48,292
the Germans would have made
a stab in the dark,
809
01:08:48,459 --> 01:08:51,376
but they could never have hit as hard
810
01:08:51,542 --> 01:08:55,126
as they hit the French Resistance.
811
01:08:55,667 --> 01:08:59,501
Is that you?
Bring me the latest police reports.
812
01:09:01,709 --> 01:09:04,584
It's now time for the daily meeting
813
01:09:04,751 --> 01:09:08,876
of the Head of State
and the Head of Government.
814
01:09:14,917 --> 01:09:17,542
Every one of France's problems
815
01:09:18,001 --> 01:09:21,959
is thoroughly and openly examined
by the two men.
816
01:09:23,459 --> 01:09:27,417
Marshal Pétain didn't have
a thing in common with the President.
817
01:09:28,126 --> 01:09:31,876
Pétain was a stickler for order.
Laval liked to improvise.
818
01:09:32,084 --> 01:09:35,834
They were complete opposites
of one another.
819
01:09:36,959 --> 01:09:39,126
They had nothing in common.
820
01:09:39,584 --> 01:09:44,751
What inspired him to take Laval
a first time and then a second?
821
01:09:45,126 --> 01:09:47,917
The first time,
he didn't have much choice,
822
01:09:48,251 --> 01:09:52,417
as it was basically Laval
who made Pétain head of state.
823
01:09:53,001 --> 01:09:57,709
The second time, he was in what you
could call a rather tragic situation,
824
01:09:57,876 --> 01:10:01,584
where the occupiers
basically forced him to choose Laval.
825
01:10:02,917 --> 01:10:08,126
Marshal Pétain was
surrounded by a legion
826
01:10:11,751 --> 01:10:16,751
of right-wing
and far right-wing influences,
827
01:10:18,126 --> 01:10:21,292
whereas my father-in-law,
I say again,
828
01:10:21,667 --> 01:10:25,584
was a man who could
be considered a centrist today.
829
01:10:26,126 --> 01:10:31,251
Laval's policies were pro-German
because he believed in them.
830
01:10:32,001 --> 01:10:35,501
Let me just quickly tell you
something Laval told me.
831
01:10:35,667 --> 01:10:39,292
You, of course, remember
that horrible radio programme
832
01:10:39,459 --> 01:10:43,292
during which he declared,
“I hope Germany wins."
833
01:10:43,501 --> 01:10:48,042
I was in Paris. The next day,
I met with my family in Auvergne.
834
01:10:48,209 --> 01:10:52,459
I first stopped in Vichy
because I couldn't understand
835
01:10:52,959 --> 01:10:57,042
how a French leader
could say such a thing.
836
01:10:57,459 --> 01:10:59,792
I saw Laval the next morning.
837
01:11:00,126 --> 01:11:03,542
"Sir, I am appalled
by what you said yesterday."
838
01:11:03,709 --> 01:11:07,376
"What did I say?"
"That you wanted Germany to win."
839
01:11:07,709 --> 01:11:11,667
He added, "And after?
What did I add afterwards?"
840
01:11:13,209 --> 01:11:16,001
"I was so aghast
that I can't remember."
841
01:11:16,167 --> 01:11:19,709
He said, "Win the war
against Bolshevism."
842
01:11:20,084 --> 01:11:23,251
I recently read an old issue
of Le Moniteur du Puy-de-Dôme,
843
01:11:23,417 --> 01:11:30,501
on which most of the front page
was dedicated to the words of Laval:
844
01:11:30,709 --> 01:11:32,834
"I hope Germany wins."
845
01:11:33,042 --> 01:11:37,001
There were several interpretations
of this statement,
846
01:11:37,209 --> 01:11:41,167
and some people have said
that we must remember that he added,
847
01:11:41,376 --> 01:11:46,959
"I hope they win as I'm involved
in the fight against Communism."
848
01:11:47,126 --> 01:11:50,084
Yet not everyone in France
was Communist,
849
01:11:50,251 --> 01:11:54,334
each one of us has their own ideas,
which is why we fought.
850
01:11:54,501 --> 01:11:59,751
We can't be anti-Communist,
because we're not anti-anything.
851
01:11:59,917 --> 01:12:03,584
It's the same thing as saying,
"And those freemasons,
852
01:12:03,792 --> 01:12:06,292
"they must be sent to the camps."
853
01:12:06,459 --> 01:12:11,251
Or, "So you're a Jew? All the Jews
must be burned in the gas chambers."
854
01:12:12,251 --> 01:12:17,417
During the relatively long time
you spent in Clermont-Ferrand,
855
01:12:17,584 --> 01:12:22,876
did you ever see or hear
of the persecutions that occurred?
856
01:12:33,417 --> 01:12:36,334
No, I didn't see or hear
anything about them.
857
01:12:36,542 --> 01:12:42,626
Are you denying that the Jews,
the Juden, were persecuted?
858
01:12:43,251 --> 01:12:47,001
Do you mean the Jungen, the young,
or the Juden, the Jews?
859
01:12:47,084 --> 01:12:48,417
The Juden.
860
01:12:50,084 --> 01:12:56,417
I had no idea how many Jews
had infiltrated partisan ranks.
861
01:12:56,626 --> 01:13:01,167
In any case, it wasn't the army's job
to take care of the Jews.
862
01:13:03,001 --> 01:13:08,209
An extremely disturbing
census was taken
863
01:13:10,042 --> 01:13:15,834
of the Jews who were
either deported or arrested
864
01:13:16,042 --> 01:13:20,709
in the various countries
occupied by Germany,
865
01:13:20,917 --> 01:13:23,542
and, with the exception of France,
866
01:13:24,542 --> 01:13:27,376
the statistics are terrifying.
867
01:13:27,792 --> 01:13:32,376
Of all these Jews, in 1946,
868
01:13:32,542 --> 01:13:36,542
only 5.8% survived.
869
01:13:37,167 --> 01:13:41,876
Whereas, if you
look at the statistics,
870
01:13:42,001 --> 01:13:44,584
which nobody is denying,
871
01:13:44,751 --> 01:13:47,459
concerning French Jews,
872
01:13:48,876 --> 01:13:54,126
only 5% did not survive.
873
01:13:54,292 --> 01:13:57,917
Just take, for example, the army.
874
01:13:58,126 --> 01:14:01,292
Sir, excuse me for interrupting you,
875
01:14:01,459 --> 01:14:05,251
but the statistic you quote,
and which I know well
876
01:14:06,584 --> 01:14:12,167
refers only to French Jews
who had not lost their citizenship.
877
01:14:12,876 --> 01:14:18,542
However, there is another statistic
878
01:14:18,667 --> 01:14:21,209
which is fatefuliy similar to yours,
879
01:14:23,376 --> 01:14:26,501
which says that of the Jews
without French citizenship,
880
01:14:26,709 --> 01:14:32,626
the foreign Jews, or Jews
stripped of citizenship,
881
01:14:33,084 --> 01:14:35,751
only 5% survived,
882
01:14:35,959 --> 01:14:39,542
the same average
as in other countries.
883
01:14:39,709 --> 01:14:42,834
So I am asking you
if a statesman has the right,
884
01:14:43,042 --> 01:14:46,626
even if he is a Frenchman
and a great patriot,
885
01:14:46,834 --> 01:14:51,334
to make such decisions
concerning other human beings?
886
01:14:52,417 --> 01:14:55,417
It was a tragic
and dramatic situation,
887
01:14:55,584 --> 01:14:58,751
in which one had to make the choice
888
01:14:59,292 --> 01:15:03,209
which would save
the most human lives possible.
889
01:15:03,376 --> 01:15:06,001
I was brought up
in a lower middle-class family.
890
01:15:06,209 --> 01:15:08,542
I went to Pasteur High School,
891
01:15:08,959 --> 01:15:14,876
but for me, being Jewish wasn't
an issue, as we weren't religious.
892
01:15:15,917 --> 01:15:19,501
And when I found out through others
that I was Jewish,
893
01:15:19,667 --> 01:15:23,959
at first, I felt extremely sad
894
01:15:24,126 --> 01:15:27,959
to be rejected by my community
and this country I loved,
895
01:15:28,584 --> 01:15:33,876
not because I was born here,
but because I loved the history.
896
01:15:35,209 --> 01:15:37,626
Then I took an interest in Jews.
897
01:15:38,751 --> 01:15:45,334
I think that discussing statistics
in such a situation is impossible.
898
01:15:45,501 --> 01:15:50,917
The fact that the French government
agreed to turn in French nationals,
899
01:15:51,334 --> 01:15:57,542
and even people to whom France
had traditionally granted asylum,
900
01:15:57,751 --> 01:16:01,667
proves that the government
wasn't worthy of its country,
901
01:16:01,834 --> 01:16:05,251
and of all that we loved
and respected about France.
902
01:16:06,042 --> 01:16:12,042
France is the only country in all
Europe whose government collaborated.
903
01:16:12,292 --> 01:16:15,417
Others signed an armistice
or surrendered,
904
01:16:15,626 --> 01:16:21,042
but France was the only country
to have collaborated and voted laws
905
01:16:21,209 --> 01:16:25,417
which were even more racist
than the Nuremberg Laws,
906
01:16:25,751 --> 01:16:29,542
as the French racist criteria
were even more demanding
907
01:16:29,876 --> 01:16:32,376
than the German racist criteria.
908
01:16:32,542 --> 01:16:35,376
It's not something to be proud of.
909
01:16:35,792 --> 01:16:40,959
I understand that history books
only present the positive side,
910
01:16:41,292 --> 01:16:44,001
but historically speaking,
that's wrong.
911
01:16:44,542 --> 01:16:47,751
I was arrested for
belonging to the Resistance.
912
01:16:47,917 --> 01:16:51,667
I was arrested
during an armed campaign.
913
01:16:51,876 --> 01:16:55,626
- When you were 16 years old?
- I was 16, going on 17.
914
01:16:56,417 --> 01:16:58,751
I was arrested by the French police,
915
01:16:59,209 --> 01:17:03,959
and though I wasn't tortured,
I was interrogated for 18 clays
916
01:17:04,751 --> 01:17:06,876
in a rather physical manner.
917
01:17:07,042 --> 01:17:10,917
I spent one year in a French prison.
918
01:17:11,126 --> 01:17:16,751
In prison, I saw seven of
my fellow group members gunned down,
919
01:17:16,917 --> 01:17:19,501
by squads of French policemen.
920
01:17:19,959 --> 01:17:24,126
And I was given over to the SS,
with the other prison inmates,
921
01:17:24,334 --> 01:17:29,001
on July 2, 1944, by the
French Department of Prisons,
922
01:17:29,167 --> 01:17:33,209
the only one in Europe
that stooped so low
923
01:17:33,376 --> 01:17:37,667
as to give the Germans every inmate,
bound hand and foot.
924
01:17:37,834 --> 01:17:40,751
I was deported
on the "train of death",
925
01:17:40,917 --> 01:17:46,292
thus named because it sat for two
months being shot at by the English
926
01:17:46,459 --> 01:17:51,626
who didn't know who was in it.
I escaped on August 25, 1944.
927
01:17:51,876 --> 01:17:54,501
The train arrived
in Dachau on the 27th.
928
01:17:55,584 --> 01:17:59,167
That's when I found out
that my parents were there.
929
01:17:59,501 --> 01:18:04,334
I hadn't seen my parents in four years,
and I was told they'd been deported.
930
01:18:05,501 --> 01:18:08,459
France was full
of concentration camps:
931
01:18:08,876 --> 01:18:13,626
Lurs, Argeles, Rivesaltes,
Fortbarreau, Drancy,
932
01:18:14,084 --> 01:18:16,167
and many others.
933
01:18:16,334 --> 01:18:20,001
Along with the Jews,
there were Spanish Republicans,
934
01:18:20,584 --> 01:18:23,167
Freemasons and gypsies.
935
01:18:23,501 --> 01:18:29,126
And all these people were delivered
to the Germans upon their request.
936
01:18:32,126 --> 01:18:37,251
Many people participated in
these persecutions,
937
01:18:37,417 --> 01:18:40,709
not to mention
those who participated indirectly,
938
01:18:40,876 --> 01:18:46,667
for their own personal reasons,
to be rid of their competitors, etc.
939
01:18:47,584 --> 01:18:52,751
Out of 130 letters of denunciation
filed by the Office for Jewish Affairs,
940
01:18:52,959 --> 01:18:56,417
at least half were written by doctors
941
01:18:57,001 --> 01:19:02,667
who were informing the Gestapo
or the Office for Jewish Affairs
942
01:19:02,959 --> 01:19:08,792
against so-and-so, who was
in direct competition with them.
943
01:19:09,792 --> 01:19:12,334
One fine summer day, the Paris police,
944
01:19:12,501 --> 01:19:16,751
under the supervision of the SS
and the Gestapo in occupied lands,
945
01:19:17,167 --> 01:19:20,417
organised a clay of Jewish arrests
in the capital.
946
01:19:20,667 --> 01:19:26,251
This day was henceforth known
as the Rafle du Vél d'Hiv.
947
01:19:26,542 --> 01:19:31,459
At that time, the Germans
had only planned on arresting
948
01:19:31,626 --> 01:19:36,834
people over 16 years of age.
They weren't going to arrest children.
949
01:19:37,126 --> 01:19:41,167
Yet the Paris police,
which organised July 16
950
01:19:41,792 --> 01:19:47,292
with such enthusiasm that they earned
the praise of the Germans,
951
01:19:48,042 --> 01:19:50,042
began arresting children.
952
01:19:51,126 --> 01:19:57,001
So there were these 4,051 children
sitting in the Velodrome d'Hiver,
953
01:19:57,376 --> 01:19:59,459
crying and wetting their pants.
954
01:19:59,667 --> 01:20:04,834
They caused the social workers,
mostly Quakers or Protestant women,
955
01:20:05,042 --> 01:20:07,751
very serious problems.
956
01:20:08,459 --> 01:20:12,917
As the Germans hadn't planned
on deporting these children,
957
01:20:13,084 --> 01:20:17,084
they first deported the parents
to camps in France,
958
01:20:17,292 --> 01:20:20,834
hence separating the children
from their parents,
959
01:20:21,042 --> 01:20:24,751
while waiting for a decision.
Eventually, Eichmann...
960
01:20:25,667 --> 01:20:30,126
No, it was Rothke,
Eichmann's representative,
961
01:20:30,292 --> 01:20:34,001
who sent a telegram to Berlin
962
01:20:34,167 --> 01:20:37,959
to ask what should be done
with these children.
963
01:20:38,126 --> 01:20:40,292
While they were waiting,
964
01:20:40,626 --> 01:20:44,792
Laval is reported to have said,
965
01:20:45,251 --> 01:20:48,459
"The children must be deported, too."
966
01:20:49,126 --> 01:20:55,834
This appears in a telegram from
Danneker, who was based in France.
967
01:20:56,042 --> 01:20:59,834
This telegram can be
consulted in the CDJC archives.
968
01:21:02,084 --> 01:21:05,459
In my opinion, there are two things
that prove it's authentic:
969
01:21:05,626 --> 01:21:11,834
firstly, Pastor Beugner's attempt to
convince Laval to protect the children.
970
01:21:12,626 --> 01:21:14,626
According to Beugner,
971
01:21:14,709 --> 01:21:21,042
when he suggested evacuating
the children, possibly to America,
972
01:21:21,417 --> 01:21:25,959
Laval replied, "It doesn't matter.
I'm preventing the disease."
973
01:21:26,626 --> 01:21:30,667
I'm sorry for interrupting
when it's not my turn, sir.
974
01:21:30,876 --> 01:21:35,292
But if these children
had seen what I saw,
975
01:21:36,167 --> 01:21:40,709
if they'd seen these poor people,
men, women, children,
976
01:21:41,126 --> 01:21:44,084
young and old,
people of every age,
977
01:21:44,251 --> 01:21:46,376
piled up in these trucks,
978
01:21:46,542 --> 01:21:50,667
shoved in like human cattle,
one on top of the other.
979
01:21:51,001 --> 01:21:54,001
And I knew where they were going.
I knew.
980
01:21:54,209 --> 01:21:55,959
There was only one thing to do.
981
01:21:56,334 --> 01:21:59,751
Had they seen this,
they'd have done what I did.
982
01:21:59,959 --> 01:22:04,584
They'd have taken their handkerchiefs,
said to their employees,
983
01:22:04,751 --> 01:22:07,459
"Excuse me. I'll be back in a minute."
984
01:22:07,542 --> 01:22:09,584
And they'd have gone and cried.
985
01:22:10,251 --> 01:22:13,209
Does anti-Semitism
still exist in Auvergne?
986
01:22:13,959 --> 01:22:18,626
- Yes. Still alive and well.
- What makes you say that?
987
01:22:19,334 --> 01:22:24,292
For example, it's common to refer
to someone as a "Yid" or a "Jew".
988
01:22:24,501 --> 01:22:26,876
- In student circles in Clermont?
- Yes.
989
01:22:27,042 --> 01:22:30,417
Do you think the reason behind this
may be the fact
990
01:22:30,626 --> 01:22:33,334
that the Occupation
isn't discussed enough?
991
01:22:34,001 --> 01:22:39,917
In a big family like mine,
I have seven and a half children,
992
01:22:40,917 --> 01:22:45,876
since the advent of modern times,
a father only has one main concern:
993
01:22:46,126 --> 01:22:47,667
earning money.
994
01:22:47,834 --> 01:22:51,501
There's no family conversation,
no family life,
995
01:22:51,834 --> 01:22:54,584
because it takes time
and we need money.
996
01:22:55,376 --> 01:22:58,001
How many of these children survived?
997
01:22:58,167 --> 01:23:03,334
- What was the percentage?
- None of the children made it.
998
01:23:03,542 --> 01:23:08,709
I wasn't the first
to lead an inquiry on the subject
999
01:23:09,042 --> 01:23:12,167
of what happened
to the children in the camps.
1000
01:23:12,417 --> 01:23:18,084
And I discovered that they were
immediately gassed to death.
1001
01:23:19,167 --> 01:23:22,126
My father-in-law
was against repression.
1002
01:23:23,126 --> 01:23:25,709
Everyone knows that.
1003
01:23:36,459 --> 01:23:42,209
Even after his last meeting,
Pierre Laval's day isn't over.
1004
01:23:42,376 --> 01:23:44,542
As the Hôtel Matignon falls silent,
1005
01:23:44,876 --> 01:23:50,417
the president knows that tomorrow
is a new clay to start again
1006
01:23:50,584 --> 01:23:53,001
and has clearly
defined his objectives:
1007
01:23:53,459 --> 01:23:56,709
In my opinion, this work is necessary,
1008
01:23:57,126 --> 01:24:00,459
and I will not quit
until France's salvation is assured.
1009
01:24:01,626 --> 01:24:05,917
So I ask you to understand
and try to support my work.
1010
01:24:13,417 --> 01:24:15,501
A visit to Sigmaringen Castle
1011
01:24:15,709 --> 01:24:20,584
accompanied by a former volunteer
in the Waffen SS Charlemagne Division.
1012
01:24:20,876 --> 01:24:22,584
May 1969
1013
01:24:29,709 --> 01:24:33,376
Till 1944,
1014
01:24:33,626 --> 01:24:36,542
the royal family lived in this castle.
1015
01:24:36,709 --> 01:24:39,376
Under orders from Hitler's regime,
1016
01:24:39,542 --> 01:24:43,542
the royal family was given 24 hours
1017
01:24:43,709 --> 01:24:46,334
to leave the castle.
1018
01:24:46,876 --> 01:24:51,876
The new Vichy administration
was given these quarters.
1019
01:24:52,084 --> 01:24:57,084
This is where Marshal Pétain
and Prime Minister Pierre Laval
1020
01:24:57,251 --> 01:25:00,542
remained until
the surrender of Germany.
1021
01:25:00,751 --> 01:25:05,667
I came with two friends. We'd just
returned from Yanovitz, near Prague,
1022
01:25:05,876 --> 01:25:09,751
where we'd been taking
advanced anti-tank lessons,
1023
01:25:11,167 --> 01:25:16,459
and we had a very precise question
we wanted to ask Marshal Pétain,
1024
01:25:16,584 --> 01:25:18,042
as we knew he was here,
1025
01:25:18,292 --> 01:25:23,334
about whether or not
the final point we had reached
1026
01:25:23,459 --> 01:25:28,084
was logical,
and if we should make the jump
1027
01:25:28,209 --> 01:25:30,792
and leave for the Eastern front.
1028
01:25:30,959 --> 01:25:32,792
What was this final point?
1029
01:25:32,959 --> 01:25:36,959
The final point was wearing
a German uniform,
1030
01:25:37,751 --> 01:25:41,834
something neither our education
1031
01:25:42,042 --> 01:25:45,126
nor, at a certain point,
1032
01:25:46,459 --> 01:25:51,417
the taste for something new
we'd experienced in our youth,
1033
01:25:51,542 --> 01:25:52,834
had prepared us for.
1034
01:25:53,292 --> 01:25:59,501
We arrived here at the castle
and asked to see Marshal Pétain.
1035
01:25:59,917 --> 01:26:05,001
There were guards around,
French policemen.
1036
01:26:05,167 --> 01:26:11,292
Our request was quickly turned down.
Marshal Pétain refused to see us.
1037
01:26:11,459 --> 01:26:15,126
- How about Laval?
- He wouldn't see us either.
1038
01:26:15,709 --> 01:26:21,334
How did you feel about that?
It must have been a serious rejection
1039
01:26:22,501 --> 01:26:26,209
as you thought
that there would be some complicity
1040
01:26:26,667 --> 01:26:29,876
between the people
who preached the policies
1041
01:26:29,959 --> 01:26:33,167
and you who put them into practice.
1042
01:26:33,334 --> 01:26:37,959
It was a complete
and devastating rejection.
1043
01:26:39,167 --> 01:26:42,917
It made us want to leave there
as quickly as possible,
1044
01:26:44,792 --> 01:26:47,584
and join our friends in Wilflecken,
1045
01:26:47,792 --> 01:26:50,667
head for the Eastern Front,
and get it over with.
1046
01:26:50,876 --> 01:26:52,959
We no longer had any illusions.
1047
01:26:53,167 --> 01:26:58,876
It is hard for me to speak
on behalf of 7,000 young men,
1048
01:26:59,084 --> 01:27:05,251
for there were 7,000 young men
from different walks of life
1049
01:27:06,084 --> 01:27:09,501
who fought on the Eastern front
1050
01:27:09,751 --> 01:27:12,501
in the Charlemagne Division.
1051
01:27:12,751 --> 01:27:16,751
They say that only 300 survived.
1052
01:27:16,917 --> 01:27:19,376
I believe it. It's very important.
1053
01:27:19,751 --> 01:27:22,751
As I told you, the majority of them
1054
01:27:22,917 --> 01:27:27,334
weren't prepared in the least
to wear that uniform,
1055
01:27:27,501 --> 01:27:30,792
and specially not
the most extreme uniform.
1056
01:27:31,167 --> 01:27:34,876
- The Waffen SS uniform?
- Yes, that's right.
1057
01:27:35,876 --> 01:27:41,167
So the Frenchmen at Vichy,
upon seeing you in these uniforms,
1058
01:27:41,709 --> 01:27:44,876
treated you like you were...
1059
01:27:45,042 --> 01:27:48,001
Like we were an embarrassment,
1060
01:27:48,167 --> 01:27:53,376
an embarrassment which would
require explanation in the future.
1061
01:27:54,209 --> 01:27:57,417
But as you know,
in the years that followed,
1062
01:27:57,876 --> 01:28:04,542
the Vichy people tried to explain
that it was simply part of a policy,
1063
01:28:04,667 --> 01:28:07,167
and that it wasn't really serious.
1064
01:28:07,334 --> 01:28:09,792
That astounds me.
1065
01:28:09,959 --> 01:28:15,667
You know, when 7,000 young men,
1066
01:28:16,292 --> 01:28:22,709
many of whom might have become
the leaders of our nation,
1067
01:28:22,917 --> 01:28:28,751
are massacred in another country's
uniform. For me, that's serious.
1068
01:28:38,084 --> 01:28:42,459
Here you see a portrait
of Princess Stephanie,
1069
01:28:42,626 --> 01:28:44,667
the Queen of Portugal.
1070
01:28:45,001 --> 01:28:49,959
She was the wife of the
Portuguese King Don Pedro V,
1071
01:28:50,126 --> 01:28:52,376
and died at a very young age.
1072
01:28:54,001 --> 01:29:00,917
In order to understand
many people's involvement in the war,
1073
01:29:01,209 --> 01:29:05,084
you have to think back
to 1934 at the earliest.
1074
01:29:06,251 --> 01:29:09,959
There was not
a single senior school in France
1075
01:29:10,126 --> 01:29:13,626
which was not in a state of agitation.
1076
01:29:13,792 --> 01:29:17,001
From 1934 onwards,
1077
01:29:17,709 --> 01:29:23,167
there were extremely violent
political fights in high schools.
1078
01:29:23,751 --> 01:29:29,042
There were editorials in Gringoire,
Candide, Action Française,
1079
01:29:29,334 --> 01:29:31,709
in Populaire, and Humanité.
1080
01:29:32,542 --> 01:29:36,751
People were constantly encouraged
to fight one another.
1081
01:29:37,167 --> 01:29:42,917
Furthermore, soldiers felt they were
the guardians of the right wing.
1082
01:29:44,667 --> 01:29:49,834
In February 1934,
which was an important date
1083
01:29:50,001 --> 01:29:55,167
in the history of pre-war
political fighting in France,
1084
01:29:55,542 --> 01:29:59,376
- how old were you?
- I was almost 13 years old.
1085
01:29:59,834 --> 01:30:02,501
Politics already concerned you?
1086
01:30:02,667 --> 01:30:05,334
They spoke of revolution.
1087
01:30:05,584 --> 01:30:10,042
For people like us,
there really wasn't any choice.
1088
01:30:10,251 --> 01:30:12,876
We wouldn't choose the Communists,
1089
01:30:13,042 --> 01:30:16,334
so we had to choose
the other revolutionary party,
1090
01:30:16,542 --> 01:30:19,251
which was Fascism.
1091
01:30:19,417 --> 01:30:23,084
There is a lot of discussion
on anti-Semitism.
1092
01:30:23,292 --> 01:30:28,126
Don't forget that my entire youth
took place in an atmosphere
1093
01:30:28,417 --> 01:30:32,667
which was ripe in
violent anti-Semitism.
1094
01:30:32,917 --> 01:30:36,917
And we were also
1095
01:30:37,542 --> 01:30:41,667
touched by the fact that
in February 1934, people were killed.
1096
01:30:42,042 --> 01:30:47,751
It was the beginning of a revolution.
France was divided into two.
1097
01:30:47,959 --> 01:30:54,001
Did the fear of Communism play
a major role in your political awakening?
1098
01:30:54,209 --> 01:30:58,584
There was one event
which happened abroad,
1099
01:30:58,792 --> 01:31:01,042
but was of extreme importance.
1100
01:31:01,209 --> 01:31:05,417
While one generation grew up
with the Algerian war
1101
01:31:05,626 --> 01:31:07,667
and was interested in it,
1102
01:31:07,834 --> 01:31:11,042
we were most interested
in the war in Spain.
1103
01:31:13,292 --> 01:31:16,167
How could a boy of my age,
1104
01:31:16,334 --> 01:31:19,709
raised in the environment
in which I was raised,
1105
01:31:19,917 --> 01:31:23,751
be anything other than
a devoted anti-Communist,
1106
01:31:24,542 --> 01:31:28,626
when all the papers
that I read at the time
1107
01:31:28,792 --> 01:31:33,209
were filled with photos
1108
01:31:33,376 --> 01:31:36,167
of nuns who had
been gunned down,
1109
01:31:36,334 --> 01:31:39,209
of Carmelites
who'd been unearthed,
1110
01:31:39,417 --> 01:31:44,167
of desecrated tombstones
and so forth? This was...
1111
01:31:44,501 --> 01:31:49,042
- This was your background.
- Yes, exactly. Exactly.
1112
01:31:49,209 --> 01:31:52,626
As far as Fascism was concerned,
1113
01:31:55,001 --> 01:31:59,876
how did it strike you,
intellectually speaking?
1114
01:32:00,042 --> 01:32:02,626
Did you know what it was all about?
1115
01:32:02,709 --> 01:32:05,417
I must admit that I had a vague idea.
1116
01:32:05,667 --> 01:32:10,709
For us, it was a way
of rebelling against our families.
1117
01:32:12,417 --> 01:32:17,417
The first images we saw of Nuremberg
were like a new religion.
1118
01:32:17,584 --> 01:32:22,876
We were astounded. I can honestly say
that it was like a mass to us.
1119
01:32:37,501 --> 01:32:41,251
There is a religious element
to every political ideology.
1120
01:32:41,626 --> 01:32:44,542
And if you aren't impressed
by the decorum,
1121
01:32:44,709 --> 01:32:48,042
especially the youth...
1122
01:32:54,501 --> 01:33:00,792
The chairs, covered in leather,
carry the Hohenzollern emblem,
1123
01:33:01,001 --> 01:33:05,501
with the motto of the Hohenzollern:
"Nihil sine Deo",
1124
01:33:05,709 --> 01:33:08,584
in English, "Nothing without God".
1125
01:33:09,501 --> 01:33:13,001
This room was used by the royal family
1126
01:33:13,167 --> 01:33:17,084
as a dining room till 1944.
1127
01:33:18,876 --> 01:33:21,876
We are now reaching the corridor.
1128
01:33:22,209 --> 01:33:27,417
Here you can see
several magnificent miniatures,
1129
01:33:27,584 --> 01:33:31,209
representing the members
of the royal family.
1130
01:33:35,709 --> 01:33:42,209
At one point, I was contacted
by some real Resistance fighters.
1131
01:33:42,292 --> 01:33:46,917
At that time, they were looking
for people who wanted to fight.
1132
01:33:47,792 --> 01:33:49,959
It's true, I have no excuse.
1133
01:33:50,126 --> 01:33:55,376
I had several opportunities
to join the active Resistance.
1134
01:33:55,542 --> 01:33:59,626
My idea at the time,
the idea of my youth,
1135
01:34:01,334 --> 01:34:07,876
was that only two ideologies existed
which could change the world.
1136
01:34:08,042 --> 01:34:12,792
One which had already changed
the world, Marxism,
1137
01:34:13,001 --> 01:34:16,959
and the other,
which was National Socialism.
1138
01:34:17,167 --> 01:34:21,709
Does it bother you
if we say that, roughly speaking,
1139
01:34:22,084 --> 01:34:25,084
in 1941 you were a young Fascist?
1140
01:34:25,251 --> 01:34:27,042
No, it's true.
1141
01:34:27,667 --> 01:34:32,209
You were on the side
which ran no risk of persecution.
1142
01:34:32,792 --> 01:34:38,792
Were you particularly proud
of being on that side,
1143
01:34:39,126 --> 01:34:42,376
seeing how France was at the time?
1144
01:34:43,209 --> 01:34:48,042
It's good that you bring up
the problem of persecution.
1145
01:34:48,542 --> 01:34:55,334
It was unavoidable, and it is
something I consider very important.
1146
01:34:55,792 --> 01:34:59,959
I won't pretend that
I didn't know. I knew.
1147
01:35:00,334 --> 01:35:05,042
I knew they were arresting Jews.
That's true.
1148
01:35:05,876 --> 01:35:11,542
But I can assure you that
I never imagined that it ended in...
1149
01:35:11,751 --> 01:35:14,501
- In Auschwitz?
- Never.
1150
01:35:14,792 --> 01:35:19,292
You thought it simply meant
they were outcast from society?
1151
01:35:19,501 --> 01:35:22,542
I knew that they were sent to camps.
1152
01:35:22,876 --> 01:35:26,959
But at that time,
there were many prisoners.
1153
01:35:27,126 --> 01:35:31,501
There were two million
French prisoners of war in Germany.
1154
01:35:31,667 --> 01:35:35,959
Between a political prisoner
and a prisoner of war,
1155
01:35:36,667 --> 01:35:40,209
for me, I didn't think
there was any difference.
1156
01:35:41,292 --> 01:35:43,292
Let's come out and say it.
1157
01:35:43,917 --> 01:35:49,001
If France wants to remain
a major European and world player,
1158
01:35:49,251 --> 01:35:52,084
if France wants to remain
worthy of Europe,
1159
01:35:52,292 --> 01:35:55,376
we must join
the fight against Bolshevism.
1160
01:35:55,542 --> 01:35:57,626
It's our only solution.
1161
01:36:02,917 --> 01:36:08,167
Both occupied and non-occupied zones
plan to fight Bolshevism.
1162
01:36:08,376 --> 01:36:12,167
Defeating Bolshevism
will unite Europe.
1163
01:36:16,209 --> 01:36:19,126
There were recruitment offices
across France.
1164
01:36:19,542 --> 01:36:23,959
We must not try to deny
that decrees were signed.
1165
01:36:24,292 --> 01:36:29,001
I know that today
people are disgusted by us.
1166
01:36:29,626 --> 01:36:33,126
The policy of the Vichy people,
1167
01:36:33,292 --> 01:36:38,876
who incidentally have all joined
majority groups since the Liberation,
1168
01:36:40,167 --> 01:36:44,251
is to explain the situation
by saying that
1169
01:36:45,376 --> 01:36:51,209
extreme Gaullism and
extreme Communism were dangerous,
1170
01:36:51,834 --> 01:36:53,501
and so were we,
1171
01:36:53,959 --> 01:36:57,917
we, the fans of collaboration,
the bloodthirsty.
1172
01:36:58,334 --> 01:37:02,709
When did you realise
the reality of the German military?
1173
01:37:02,917 --> 01:37:10,001
For me, the reality lay in
the officer schools of the Waffen SS.
1174
01:37:10,917 --> 01:37:16,667
It was brand new, very unique,
there was a mythology to it.
1175
01:37:18,751 --> 01:37:24,334
It made us smile,
and at the same time we admired them.
1176
01:37:24,501 --> 01:37:28,626
With our Latin background,
we discovered German mythology,
1177
01:37:28,959 --> 01:37:32,084
oaths taken between chains,
1178
01:37:34,667 --> 01:37:38,251
definitions like
"My honour is called fidelity,"
1179
01:37:38,417 --> 01:37:41,501
and other things which fascinated us.
1180
01:37:42,626 --> 01:37:45,042
Once a Frenchman,
always a Frenchman,
1181
01:37:45,251 --> 01:37:48,709
even when faced
with such convictions.
1182
01:37:49,167 --> 01:37:54,542
When the Germans realised this,
they wouldn't take us seriously.
1183
01:37:55,126 --> 01:37:58,876
Did you get along with the Germans?
What did you call them?
1184
01:37:59,209 --> 01:38:00,584
Les Chleus
[Krauts].
1185
01:38:02,667 --> 01:38:06,751
I don't know one single Frenchman
1186
01:38:06,917 --> 01:38:09,792
from the Charlemagne Division
who didn't...
1187
01:38:09,959 --> 01:38:11,917
Relations were hostile?
1188
01:38:12,251 --> 01:38:15,667
Yes. Most of us called Hitler
"Le Grand Jules".
1189
01:38:15,917 --> 01:38:20,376
That was typical of the French.
They called him "Big Jules".
1190
01:38:20,626 --> 01:38:24,292
Was the foreign Waffen SS
a European army?
1191
01:38:24,501 --> 01:38:30,501
We played a part,
if you allow me to use the word,
1192
01:38:30,667 --> 01:38:33,209
in the defeat.
1193
01:38:34,167 --> 01:38:38,459
And that makes you realise that
a European army only really existed
1194
01:38:38,792 --> 01:38:40,834
in people's imaginations.
1195
01:38:40,959 --> 01:38:42,626
All I know about the defeat
1196
01:38:42,751 --> 01:38:47,917
is that the Germans had reserved us
a choice spot
1197
01:38:48,876 --> 01:38:54,792
when the Eastern front crumbled,
1198
01:38:54,959 --> 01:39:00,876
when Rokossovsky and Zhukov
carved up the German front
1199
01:39:01,042 --> 01:39:04,126
into several different pieces.
1200
01:39:05,292 --> 01:39:10,501
When this all occurred,
the Germans rushed, I do mean rushed,
1201
01:39:10,751 --> 01:39:15,584
the foreign Waffen SS troops
into these areas.
1202
01:39:18,459 --> 01:39:21,917
I strongly suspect
that they were already trying
1203
01:39:22,126 --> 01:39:26,084
to get rid of something
that made them look bad,
1204
01:39:26,876 --> 01:39:29,917
that might hinder future negotiations.
1205
01:39:30,584 --> 01:39:34,751
Did you have any contact
with the German people?
1206
01:39:34,959 --> 01:39:40,542
Yes, of course, and that is one of
my strongest memories of the time.
1207
01:39:41,667 --> 01:39:45,417
As we were going to face the Russians,
1208
01:39:45,626 --> 01:39:50,417
we met the exodus of refugees.
It was worse than in 1940.
1209
01:39:50,584 --> 01:39:54,667
All of Eastern Prussia
and part of Pomerania
1210
01:39:55,042 --> 01:39:59,126
were trying to take refuge
in central Germany.
1211
01:39:59,834 --> 01:40:01,959
What would they say to you?
1212
01:40:02,167 --> 01:40:04,001
What would they say to us?
1213
01:40:04,501 --> 01:40:06,584
They offered us their daughters.
1214
01:40:07,709 --> 01:40:14,084
They preferred to give them to us
than see them raped by the Russians.
1215
01:40:14,667 --> 01:40:17,542
We saw the Germans withdrawing,
1216
01:40:17,792 --> 01:40:20,959
and we were there
to protect their withdrawal.
1217
01:40:21,126 --> 01:40:24,876
It was something new in history,
1218
01:40:25,042 --> 01:40:26,876
and it was quite funny.
1219
01:40:27,042 --> 01:40:29,417
It was one of the things
that made us laugh,
1220
01:40:29,584 --> 01:40:35,501
although the threat of the Russians
made it somewhat less funny.
1221
01:40:35,959 --> 01:40:42,667
They were still giving out medals.
Were you awarded anything?
1222
01:40:42,876 --> 01:40:43,959
YES.
1223
01:40:45,084 --> 01:40:46,376
What? An Iron Cross?
1224
01:40:46,709 --> 01:40:49,209
Yes, first and second class.
1225
01:40:49,834 --> 01:40:53,292
Bearing in mind
what you learned in the last war,
1226
01:40:53,626 --> 01:40:56,459
the results of National Socialism,
1227
01:40:56,667 --> 01:40:59,542
which, as you explained,
1228
01:40:59,709 --> 01:41:04,876
had a certain appeal or charm about it
at one point in your life,
1229
01:41:05,042 --> 01:41:07,126
bearing this in mind,
1230
01:41:07,917 --> 01:41:11,959
would you change
the choices made at that time?
1231
01:41:12,126 --> 01:41:14,042
Yes, of course.
1232
01:41:14,209 --> 01:41:19,584
I think only an idiot would refuse
to change their opinion.
1233
01:41:20,459 --> 01:41:23,917
But I can only speak for myself.
1234
01:41:24,751 --> 01:41:27,292
I have changed, but that's me.
1235
01:41:27,501 --> 01:41:33,751
Young people have asked me
what I think about their commitment.
1236
01:41:34,709 --> 01:41:37,792
It's always interesting, fascinating,
1237
01:41:37,959 --> 01:41:41,917
because commitment
always brings on change,
1238
01:41:42,584 --> 01:41:47,251
but sometimes this change
has dramatic consequences.
1239
01:41:48,251 --> 01:41:52,334
So I advise people to be cautious.
1240
01:41:52,959 --> 01:41:56,626
Are you a liberal?
Are you afraid of ideologies?
1241
01:41:56,917 --> 01:41:58,167
A bit.
1242
01:42:00,417 --> 01:42:02,334
Actually, very much.
1243
01:42:45,209 --> 01:42:49,959
Personally, I was not physically
affected by the Occupation.
1244
01:42:50,126 --> 01:42:53,001
They didn't kill my wife
or my children.
1245
01:42:53,209 --> 01:42:57,626
My friend Menut obviously feels
very differently.
1246
01:42:57,834 --> 01:43:01,167
Not only did they take Menut's wife,
1247
01:43:01,376 --> 01:43:06,876
they also tortured her,
and tore off her nipples.
1248
01:43:07,084 --> 01:43:10,626
They even burned her
with a branding iron.
1249
01:43:10,917 --> 01:43:14,417
So Menut's state of mind is
completely different.
1250
01:43:20,876 --> 01:43:23,709
Her back was raw with whip marks.
1251
01:43:24,501 --> 01:43:28,959
- How did you find out?
- I was told by Mrs Michelin
1252
01:43:29,917 --> 01:43:33,542
who was in the same cell as my wife.
1253
01:43:33,751 --> 01:43:36,667
I believe her name
was Mrs Jean Michelin.
1254
01:43:36,834 --> 01:43:39,376
There was also Mrs Martineau
from Volvic.
1255
01:43:39,751 --> 01:43:42,834
One of them helped me
identify the body, saying,
1256
01:43:43,042 --> 01:43:45,251
"I'm sure those are her slippers,
1257
01:43:45,417 --> 01:43:48,751
"I made them for her
before they shot her to death."
1258
01:43:49,209 --> 01:43:51,917
- You didn't recognise her at first?
- No.
1259
01:43:52,251 --> 01:43:55,751
They had buried her without...
1260
01:43:55,917 --> 01:43:57,376
Without a coffin.
1261
01:43:57,542 --> 01:44:00,501
She was still alive
when they buried her.
1262
01:44:00,792 --> 01:44:05,084
She was in a coma from being whipped
when they took her,
1263
01:44:06,626 --> 01:44:09,834
and nobody had the decency
to finish her off.
1264
01:44:10,709 --> 01:44:13,126
They kicked her and punched her.
1265
01:44:13,751 --> 01:44:18,876
It was one of the executioners
himself who told me
1266
01:44:19,084 --> 01:44:21,251
that he shoved a broomstick
up her vagina.
1267
01:44:45,792 --> 01:44:49,959
Some people blamed us, others didn't.
1268
01:44:50,292 --> 01:44:56,709
It depended on whether or not their
father or son had died during the war,
1269
01:44:57,001 --> 01:44:59,751
or been taken prisoner in Germany.
1270
01:44:59,959 --> 01:45:04,084
Those people were
obviously angry at us.
1271
01:45:04,876 --> 01:45:09,042
They thought we mistreated
the prisoners in Germany.
1272
01:45:09,251 --> 01:45:12,959
But that wasn't true.
But that's what they said.
1273
01:45:25,584 --> 01:45:30,834
I was taken prisoner by the Maquis
and in October 1944,
1274
01:45:31,209 --> 01:45:34,584
I was taken to Clermont-Ferrand
to be interned
1275
01:45:34,792 --> 01:45:37,459
in a camp near the station.
1276
01:45:37,876 --> 01:45:41,001
I got off the train at 10am.
1277
01:45:41,834 --> 01:45:46,084
And as I was injured,
I'd been tied to my stretcher.
1278
01:45:46,542 --> 01:45:50,251
I stayed like that all day
on the platform.
1279
01:45:56,167 --> 01:45:58,001
This is the station.
1280
01:45:58,084 --> 01:46:00,459
This is the main building.
1281
01:46:00,751 --> 01:46:05,542
This is the platform,
and the camp was across from it.
1282
01:46:09,001 --> 01:46:14,001
That evening, some nurses fetched me
with a wheelbarrow.
1283
01:46:17,667 --> 01:46:24,001
During the day, many civilians came
and stared at me lying there.
1284
01:46:24,376 --> 01:46:26,751
Some of them spat at me.
1285
01:46:27,167 --> 01:46:32,251
Then there were others
who seemed to take pity on my state.
1286
01:46:36,042 --> 01:46:38,042
What were you thinking?
1287
01:46:38,126 --> 01:46:43,876
How did you feel lying there
on the platform in Clermont station?
1288
01:46:52,209 --> 01:46:55,292
I felt it wasn't very decent
of the people there.
1289
01:46:55,667 --> 01:46:57,834
It was disgusting, actually.
1290
01:46:58,251 --> 01:47:00,834
They should have realised
1291
01:47:01,209 --> 01:47:05,834
that we could have clone the same
to their father or son. Then what?
1292
01:47:07,709 --> 01:47:09,709
So you were tied up?
1293
01:47:11,042 --> 01:47:14,542
Yes, and I was unable to move.
1294
01:47:14,834 --> 01:47:19,126
It was a shame, as I knew Clermont
like the back of my hand,
1295
01:47:19,709 --> 01:47:24,792
and I could have hidden.
I had a girlfriend in Saint-Césaire.
1296
01:47:28,709 --> 01:47:31,542
And that's where
you would have hidden?
1297
01:47:32,792 --> 01:47:34,709
Probably.
1298
01:47:35,834 --> 01:47:38,376
In any case, she was a very nice girl,
1299
01:47:38,584 --> 01:47:43,042
who wasn't against the Germans
and was pretty to boot.
1300
01:47:53,292 --> 01:47:56,751
The beauty who slept
with the King of Prussia,
1301
01:47:57,084 --> 01:48:00,417
With the King of Prussia,
1302
01:48:01,251 --> 01:48:04,667
Had her hair shaved clean off,
1303
01:48:04,834 --> 01:48:08,459
Her hair shaved clean off.
1304
01:48:09,209 --> 01:48:13,126
Her weakness for "Ich liebe dich",
1305
01:48:13,334 --> 01:48:17,001
For "Ich liebe dich",
1306
01:48:17,542 --> 01:48:21,126
Has cost her the price of a wig,
1307
01:48:21,292 --> 01:48:25,126
The price of a wig.
1308
01:48:25,667 --> 01:48:29,459
The sans-culottes
and the Phrygian caps,
1309
01:48:29,667 --> 01:48:33,167
The Phrygian caps,
1310
01:48:33,792 --> 01:48:37,334
Handed their hair
over to a dog barber,
1311
01:48:37,667 --> 01:48:41,209
To a dog barber.
1312
01:48:42,001 --> 01:48:45,417
I ought to have tried
to save her mane,
1313
01:48:45,626 --> 01:48:48,917
To save her mane.
1314
01:48:49,917 --> 01:48:53,584
I should have spoken out
for her ponytail,
1315
01:48:53,792 --> 01:48:56,459
For her ponytail.
1316
01:48:58,709 --> 01:49:00,876
It was in August 1944.
1317
01:49:01,126 --> 01:49:05,876
I had taken holidays in August
and was visiting my mother,
1318
01:49:06,209 --> 01:49:09,959
when a car
full of civilians pulled up.
1319
01:49:10,667 --> 01:49:12,542
They'd come to get me.
1320
01:49:13,126 --> 01:49:17,626
There were flags everywhere
and they all carried machine guns.
1321
01:49:17,834 --> 01:49:22,584
I hadn't realised what was up,
as Châteaugué is a quiet village,
1322
01:49:22,751 --> 01:49:27,292
but when I arrived in Clermont,
I saw that everyone was abuzz.
1323
01:49:27,459 --> 01:49:31,042
People were being arrested
left, right, and centre.
1324
01:49:31,292 --> 01:49:34,542
I was locked up in a cell
underneath the Poterne,
1325
01:49:34,751 --> 01:49:37,917
a public square in Clermont-Ferrand.
1326
01:49:38,334 --> 01:49:41,334
There were women
wearing their nightgowns,
1327
01:49:41,542 --> 01:49:45,042
or their pyjamas,
as they'd been taken in the night.
1328
01:49:45,417 --> 01:49:47,876
I didn't know why they'd taken me.
1329
01:49:48,292 --> 01:49:49,834
I had really no idea.
1330
01:49:50,792 --> 01:49:53,751
We had to stand trial.
1331
01:49:54,251 --> 01:49:58,334
Some women came back from
such trials with their heads shaved.
1332
01:49:58,917 --> 01:50:01,834
Those were the girls
who dated the Germans.
1333
01:50:02,001 --> 01:50:04,459
But, for me, it was...
1334
01:50:04,626 --> 01:50:07,417
- You didn't date the Germans?
- Never.
1335
01:50:07,584 --> 01:50:09,209
What were you accused of?
1336
01:50:09,417 --> 01:50:13,792
I spent an entire month
in the Clermont-Ferrand prison,
1337
01:50:13,959 --> 01:50:18,001
before being told why I was there.
1338
01:50:18,667 --> 01:50:22,626
On several occasions,
I asked different officers
1339
01:50:22,834 --> 01:50:26,542
if they knew
why I had been placed in prison.
1340
01:50:26,917 --> 01:50:32,292
When I told them my name,
none understood why I was there.
1341
01:50:32,501 --> 01:50:36,626
They told me it might be a mistake,
that I should be patient.
1342
01:50:36,792 --> 01:50:38,834
"No doubt, they'll let you go."
1343
01:50:39,376 --> 01:50:44,167
Now many of them belonged
to the French Resistance army.
1344
01:50:45,084 --> 01:50:51,417
Eventually, I found out I'd been
jailed for denouncing a captain,
1345
01:50:52,376 --> 01:50:53,626
a friend of mine.
1346
01:50:54,084 --> 01:50:57,542
Actually, it was his wife
who was my friend.
1347
01:50:57,709 --> 01:51:00,584
They were also locals, about my age.
1348
01:51:01,959 --> 01:51:08,667
The Chamalière Gestapo had intercepted
a denunciation letter,
1349
01:51:10,334 --> 01:51:14,542
and that denunciation was the reason
I had been arrested.
1350
01:51:17,001 --> 01:51:21,667
So you weren't actually guilty?
1351
01:51:21,959 --> 01:51:23,417
No, I wasn't.
1352
01:51:23,626 --> 01:51:25,626
Naturally, I denied it.
1353
01:51:26,376 --> 01:51:28,834
They came to get me at the prison,
1354
01:51:30,001 --> 01:51:32,959
they took me to
a building on Lille Square,
1355
01:51:33,876 --> 01:51:37,792
and a certain individual
removed all my clothes,
1356
01:51:37,959 --> 01:51:41,959
and put me in a bath
that was filled with water.
1357
01:51:42,501 --> 01:51:45,751
I tried to hold on,
but I was handcuffed from behind.
1358
01:51:46,084 --> 01:51:49,667
I turned my head around,
but he punched me on the chin,
1359
01:51:50,876 --> 01:51:54,001
So I sank to
the bottom of the bath.
1360
01:51:54,501 --> 01:51:57,667
As I was underwater,
I was forced to drink.
1361
01:51:57,834 --> 01:52:04,042
They realised
that I was starting to lose strength,
1362
01:52:04,209 --> 01:52:07,959
so he grabbed me by the hair,
pulled me out of the water,
1363
01:52:08,126 --> 01:52:11,834
stuck two fingers down my throat,
made me throw up,
1364
01:52:12,876 --> 01:52:16,376
and asked me if I confessed.
But I wasn't guilty.
1365
01:52:16,542 --> 01:52:21,251
And I regretted I hadn't
done anything. It was so horrible.
1366
01:52:21,917 --> 01:52:26,917
But who were these people?
You talk about "they" and "he".
1367
01:52:27,126 --> 01:52:33,417
Do you think they were policemen
who had worked for another regime?
1368
01:52:33,834 --> 01:52:35,751
I don't know.
1369
01:52:36,667 --> 01:52:41,042
- Don't you live in Clermont?
- I never saw these people again.
1370
01:52:41,376 --> 01:52:45,709
I think they were people
who got involved in the whole thing
1371
01:52:46,001 --> 01:52:49,417
with the sole purpose
of killing other people.
1372
01:52:50,792 --> 01:52:56,251
During the Occupation, were you
for or against Marshal Pétain?
1373
01:52:56,459 --> 01:52:58,376
I supported him.
1374
01:52:58,584 --> 01:52:59,834
Why?
1375
01:53:01,292 --> 01:53:06,084
I wasn't a politician or anything,
I was just in favour of Pétain.
1376
01:53:06,626 --> 01:53:09,126
So how did this happen to you?
1377
01:53:09,459 --> 01:53:11,876
A friend was denounced to the Gestapo.
1378
01:53:12,042 --> 01:53:16,001
The letter was intercepted
by the Chamalière Police.
1379
01:53:16,584 --> 01:53:20,126
Do you know
who might have imitated your writing?
1380
01:53:20,292 --> 01:53:21,417
It was his wife.
1381
01:53:21,626 --> 01:53:23,209
- His wife did?
- Yes.
1382
01:53:23,376 --> 01:53:25,876
- She was the one who denounced you?
- Yes.
1383
01:53:32,001 --> 01:53:34,167
- Excuse me.
- Go ahead.
1384
01:53:38,251 --> 01:53:40,292
Now we'll have some privacy.
1385
01:53:41,209 --> 01:53:44,126
Do you remember where we stopped?
1386
01:53:44,376 --> 01:53:49,042
I do. So then I asked the captain...
1387
01:53:50,834 --> 01:53:52,792
I asked him...
1388
01:53:55,751 --> 01:53:57,209
I don't know.
1389
01:53:58,167 --> 01:54:00,167
I had to stand trial.
1390
01:54:01,167 --> 01:54:05,542
Captain Mury was the first witness.
1391
01:54:06,292 --> 01:54:08,167
The judge even said to him,
1392
01:54:08,292 --> 01:54:11,917
"I hear your wife enjoys
copying her friends' writing."
1393
01:54:12,084 --> 01:54:15,751
He replied, "Sometimes,
but that means nothing.
1394
01:54:16,001 --> 01:54:18,584
"And furthermore,
1395
01:54:18,667 --> 01:54:24,417
“the accused woman is using this
to try to make my wife look guilty."
1396
01:54:25,042 --> 01:54:30,709
And when Mrs Mury took the stand,
he asked her the same question.
1397
01:54:30,917 --> 01:54:32,667
She replied, "Never".
1398
01:54:33,042 --> 01:54:36,501
The judge said,
"But it's been confirmed."
1399
01:54:36,667 --> 01:54:40,292
She turned to me, thinking
I was the one who'd confirmed it,
1400
01:54:40,626 --> 01:54:43,001
and said,
"What a memory she has!"
1401
01:54:43,167 --> 01:54:47,292
The judge slammed his fist down
and said, "It wasn't her.
1402
01:54:47,417 --> 01:54:52,167
"It was your husband who said it."
And then she began to falter,
1403
01:54:52,334 --> 01:54:55,709
saying she only copied
very pretty handwriting.
1404
01:54:56,251 --> 01:54:59,751
A murmur passed through
the entire court.
1405
01:55:00,501 --> 01:55:05,542
There were people there on both sides,
both for and against me,
1406
01:55:05,751 --> 01:55:10,876
but they all felt sure the judge
would ask for further inquiry
1407
01:55:11,042 --> 01:55:14,042
into how well
she could imitate handwriting.
1408
01:55:14,209 --> 01:55:17,751
But he didn't.
And I was sentenced to 15 years.
1409
01:55:18,501 --> 01:55:24,459
When you say you had both friends
and enemies in the courtroom,
1410
01:55:24,667 --> 01:55:29,709
were these friends and enemies
characterised
1411
01:55:29,876 --> 01:55:34,417
by a certain attitude
under the Occupation or not?
1412
01:55:36,209 --> 01:55:37,292
No, no...
1413
01:55:37,459 --> 01:55:42,834
Were your enemies people who claimed
to be Resistance fighters?
1414
01:55:43,251 --> 01:55:48,042
Exactly. They weren't
personal enemies or anything.
1415
01:55:48,376 --> 01:55:52,876
I supported Marshal Pétain,
and they didn't. Or so I think.
1416
01:55:53,042 --> 01:55:57,751
When you were brought
to the room with the bath,
1417
01:56:00,001 --> 01:56:04,792
did you ever think that before,
1418
01:56:05,126 --> 01:56:10,376
at the time when
you generally agreed with the regime,
1419
01:56:10,542 --> 01:56:13,792
the same thing happened to the others?
1420
01:56:15,042 --> 01:56:17,209
I don't know. I have no idea.
1421
01:56:17,626 --> 01:56:20,417
- You say that you were for Pétain.
- Yes.
1422
01:56:20,792 --> 01:56:24,542
Was this because you were influenced
by Catholic beliefs?
1423
01:56:24,917 --> 01:56:27,667
- No.
- Why was it then?
1424
01:56:29,126 --> 01:56:32,792
- Maybe it was...
- Please try to remember.
1425
01:56:32,959 --> 01:56:37,542
- Maybe it was because of his ideas.
- Which ideas?
1426
01:56:37,751 --> 01:56:42,709
His ideas on the future of France.
I thought he was a great man.
1427
01:56:43,959 --> 01:56:46,251
- Do you still think so?
- Yes.
1428
01:56:47,167 --> 01:56:48,459
YES.
1429
01:56:49,001 --> 01:56:54,292
You defended many people
accused by those in power at the time,
1430
01:56:54,709 --> 01:56:59,334
and at the Liberation, you defended
those accused by the new order.
1431
01:56:59,834 --> 01:57:02,751
It might seem odd to the uninformed.
1432
01:57:02,917 --> 01:57:06,626
As lawyers,
our job is to defend the accused,
1433
01:57:06,834 --> 01:57:10,917
but when politics change,
the accused change too,
1434
01:57:11,084 --> 01:57:16,751
depending on which side of the fence
you're on. It was a brutal period.
1435
01:57:17,167 --> 01:57:21,376
In the three or four clays
after the liberation of Clermont,
1436
01:57:21,542 --> 01:57:25,876
out of the 1,200 people arrested,
only 600 were put in prison.
1437
01:57:26,042 --> 01:57:29,209
You can imagine
what happened to the other 600.
1438
01:57:29,334 --> 01:57:33,292
And those who had trials
then received a very summary justice,
1439
01:57:33,417 --> 01:57:35,667
which might as well have been
dispensed with,
1440
01:57:35,792 --> 01:57:38,584
considering the atrocious things
being punished.
1441
01:57:38,751 --> 01:57:41,584
I attended the trial
of three militiamen
1442
01:57:42,167 --> 01:57:45,501
who admitted to having arrested
three Resistance fighters,
1443
01:57:45,667 --> 01:57:51,084
ripped out their eyes, put bugs in
the holes and sewn up their pupils.
1444
01:57:51,417 --> 01:57:54,917
In these cases,
you wonder if a trial is necessary.
1445
01:57:55,084 --> 01:58:00,459
It may have been better to shoot them
immediately. Many were shot.
1446
01:58:00,876 --> 01:58:06,542
But then, later, many legal errors
were also made, in that,
1447
01:58:06,834 --> 01:58:13,251
in a wave of Liberation euphoria,
many innocent people were executed.
1448
01:58:13,792 --> 01:58:18,834
However, after a month and a half
or so, they set up official courts,
1449
01:58:19,001 --> 01:58:21,876
with a professional judge presiding,
1450
01:58:22,084 --> 01:58:25,542
accompanied by a jury,
like the Crown Court.
1451
01:58:25,917 --> 01:58:29,459
And I don't think
any further legal errors were made,
1452
01:58:29,626 --> 01:58:33,417
if you accept the death penalty
for someone
1453
01:58:33,626 --> 01:58:39,084
who denounced a Frenchman
who was taken away and never returned.
1454
01:58:39,501 --> 01:58:41,959
Mr d'Astier,
National Liberation Movement.
1455
01:58:42,251 --> 01:58:47,334
May the traitors' heads roll,
because that is justice.
1456
01:58:50,209 --> 01:58:55,542
May the property of collaborators,
banks and corporations
1457
01:58:55,709 --> 01:58:58,876
who betrayed us be seized,
because that is justice.
1458
01:58:59,417 --> 01:59:01,126
Mr Guyot, Communist Party.
1459
01:59:01,376 --> 01:59:04,209
In order for France to be liberated,
1460
01:59:04,917 --> 01:59:09,834
every inch of our motherland
must be cleansed
1461
01:59:09,959 --> 01:59:12,292
of every Boche and every traitor.
1462
01:59:35,042 --> 01:59:38,751
Anthony Eden,
in this interview, generally speaking,
1463
01:59:38,917 --> 01:59:44,834
your attitude towards Marshal Pétain
has been rather charitable.
1464
01:59:45,001 --> 01:59:50,001
Do you think the sentence he was given
at the Liberation was unfair?
1465
02:00:15,834 --> 02:00:21,542
It is not my place to judge whether
or not people's anger was justified.
1466
02:00:21,792 --> 02:00:24,834
We haven't been through it,
so we cannot say.
1467
02:00:25,834 --> 02:00:31,834
Personally, I was not shocked
when General de Gaulle said,
1468
02:00:32,001 --> 02:00:35,626
"We must pay tribute
to the Marshal of Verdun."
1469
02:00:36,209 --> 02:00:41,584
After all, it's a part of France's
history, whether we like it or not.
1470
02:00:41,917 --> 02:00:44,417
Sectarianism can't go on forever.
1471
02:00:44,834 --> 02:00:50,001
It's not because a man is killed
that the problem will be solved.
1472
02:00:50,292 --> 02:00:54,917
They must not be allowed to run free
or to be involved in politics,
1473
02:00:55,334 --> 02:00:59,501
but we must not turn them into
possible future heroes.
1474
02:01:00,126 --> 02:01:06,167
That's my opinion, but not
many Resistants would agree with it.
1475
02:01:07,417 --> 02:01:13,126
How did you arrive at this stage
in which you reject sectarianism?
1476
02:01:13,501 --> 02:01:16,209
How do you explain
the change of heart?
1477
02:01:16,834 --> 02:01:22,209
I know it seems like a sudden change,
but it was because I was scared.
1478
02:01:22,959 --> 02:01:25,126
I was scared the whole time.
1479
02:01:25,334 --> 02:01:29,459
After the self-sacrificing heroes,
like General Massu,
1480
02:01:29,709 --> 02:01:34,751
or the man who... I could never
have committed suicide. I love life.
1481
02:01:34,959 --> 02:01:37,459
Born February 6, 1900
Died June 12, 1969
1482
02:01:37,667 --> 02:01:40,751
French Resistance Fighter
Military Cross 1939-45
1483
02:01:42,376 --> 02:01:44,292
Were you denounced?
1484
02:01:44,459 --> 02:01:47,209
Yes, someone denounced me.
1485
02:01:48,459 --> 02:01:50,501
I think I know who it was, but...
1486
02:01:50,667 --> 02:01:54,834
If he hadn't been denounced,
no one would've found him.
1487
02:01:55,251 --> 02:01:58,834
You make me laugh with your questions!
1488
02:01:59,001 --> 02:02:02,751
The Krauts didn't denounce -
bad French people did.
1489
02:02:02,959 --> 02:02:05,584
Were you ever tempted to seek revenge?
1490
02:02:05,709 --> 02:02:07,042
What good would it do?
1491
02:02:07,209 --> 02:02:10,042
It is natural that
it would be tempting.
1492
02:02:10,209 --> 02:02:13,917
When I first came back,
I may have been tempted.
1493
02:02:14,126 --> 02:02:16,417
But then I felt it wasn't worth it.
1494
02:02:16,834 --> 02:02:20,334
I remember one clay
at Clermont Police HQ,
1495
02:02:20,501 --> 02:02:25,834
a guy said to me, "Do you want
to get revenge? I know who it was.
1496
02:02:26,001 --> 02:02:30,584
"If you want revenge,
the boys and I will get him for you,
1497
02:02:30,751 --> 02:02:33,834
"but we'll never tell you his name."
1498
02:02:34,001 --> 02:02:35,917
I said, "I already know who did it."
1499
02:02:36,001 --> 02:02:39,584
I told him the name.
He asked, "Who told you?"
1500
02:02:39,751 --> 02:02:43,542
"Nobody," I replied.
"I just worked it out.
1501
02:02:43,709 --> 02:02:45,959
"So don't bother taking revenge."
1502
02:02:46,459 --> 02:02:52,209
What is it like nowadays, for someone
like you, to have neighbours
1503
02:02:53,751 --> 02:02:58,001
in the village or surrounding areas,
who were informers?
1504
02:02:58,167 --> 02:03:01,084
How can you live with that?
1505
02:03:01,626 --> 02:03:03,209
Do you forget it?
1506
02:03:03,417 --> 02:03:05,751
It's something you can't forget.
1507
02:03:06,167 --> 02:03:09,209
- So what can you do?
- Nothing.
1508
02:03:23,001 --> 02:03:25,334
This is the Iron Cross.
1509
02:03:25,751 --> 02:03:28,459
This is the Cross of Merit,
with a sword.
1510
02:03:28,917 --> 02:03:30,334
This is another one,
1511
02:03:30,501 --> 02:03:35,292
the Cross of Merit second class.
It was for hand-to-hand combat.
1512
02:03:35,459 --> 02:03:40,251
This was for serving in the East.
We call it "the frozen meat medal",
1513
02:03:40,709 --> 02:03:45,709
and this medal was for being loyal
during four years of war.
1514
02:03:53,501 --> 02:03:56,167
I see, a medal for loyalty.
1515
02:03:56,334 --> 02:03:58,542
Yes, four years of war.
1516
02:04:00,167 --> 02:04:05,709
I'm sure that you're aware that as far as
World War II medals are concerned,
1517
02:04:05,876 --> 02:04:09,667
there are many people in Germany
who refuse to wear them,
1518
02:04:09,917 --> 02:04:12,709
because they were awarded
by the Nazi state.
1519
02:04:13,167 --> 02:04:18,126
Yet you don't hesitate
to wear them with formal dress.
1520
02:04:27,626 --> 02:04:30,167
Yes, some people feel uncomfortable.
1521
02:04:32,501 --> 02:04:35,042
But if you look at these people,
1522
02:04:35,209 --> 02:04:38,959
you see they're generally
men who never fought,
1523
02:04:39,167 --> 02:04:43,292
men who weren't soldiers,
who didn't deserve any medals.
1524
02:04:53,876 --> 02:04:59,001
You think that they don't wear them
simply because they have none?
1525
02:05:00,626 --> 02:05:02,376
That's right.
1526
02:05:05,167 --> 02:05:08,417
Nowadays,
they're dishing out medals.
1527
02:05:09,084 --> 02:05:13,167
What's the difference between
a medal then and a medal now?
1528
02:05:23,709 --> 02:05:27,751
"The worm was in the fruit",
as we say here in Bavaria.
1529
02:05:28,334 --> 02:05:30,834
We're not more stupid
than anyone else,
1530
02:05:31,501 --> 02:05:33,959
and yet we lost the war.
1531
02:05:34,626 --> 02:05:39,251
Nowadays we have to wonder
if we're not better off like this.
1532
02:05:39,501 --> 02:05:44,126
After all, if we had won,
Hitler may have continued,
1533
02:05:44,334 --> 02:05:46,584
and where would that leave us today?
1534
02:05:46,792 --> 02:05:51,834
Perhaps we'd be occupying
some country in Africa or America.
1535
02:05:59,167 --> 02:06:02,501
As I said,
was on a motorcycle mission.
1536
02:06:05,376 --> 02:06:10,751
In my pocket, I had a Beretta pistol
my friend Bessoux had given me.
1537
02:06:11,542 --> 02:06:15,542
I don't think it was a gift,
he just wanted to get rid of it.
1538
02:06:15,751 --> 02:06:17,334
He was afraid.
1539
02:06:17,501 --> 02:06:20,001
So there I am with a gun in my pocket,
1540
02:06:20,167 --> 02:06:23,084
when, where the road bends
toward Ravin Blanc,
1541
02:06:23,251 --> 02:06:27,167
all of a sudden, what do I see?
The Germans had passed me,
1542
02:06:27,501 --> 02:06:30,209
and there is this old Boche,
1543
02:06:30,417 --> 02:06:35,292
a doddering pale old man, shaking
like a leaf, in need of a haircut,
1544
02:06:35,459 --> 02:06:41,084
in a tattered uniform,
whose motorcycle had broken down.
1545
02:06:41,417 --> 02:06:46,667
So he tells me to pull over
by making signs like these.
1546
02:06:47,001 --> 02:06:51,417
There he is, only seven feet away,
and there I am, a gun in my pocket.
1547
02:06:51,792 --> 02:06:54,959
I wanted to shoot one myself
before it ended.
1548
02:06:55,167 --> 02:06:57,626
So I look at him closely.
What do I see?
1549
02:06:57,792 --> 02:07:01,126
There he is,
dolman buttoned up to the neck,
1550
02:07:01,292 --> 02:07:04,584
looking so fat
that he might actually explode.
1551
02:07:04,792 --> 02:07:08,126
I felt that killing a pig
wasn't very challenging.
1552
02:07:08,501 --> 02:07:10,209
So I let the whole thing drop.
1553
02:07:10,584 --> 02:07:14,917
He started chatting, but I don't
understand a word of German.
1554
02:07:15,084 --> 02:07:19,417
I said goodbye and took off.
I don't know what became of him.
1555
02:07:19,876 --> 02:07:22,042
That's what I wanted to tell you.
1556
02:07:22,209 --> 02:07:26,167
Had you killed him,
would you feel remorse?
1557
02:07:26,709 --> 02:07:31,459
I would feel remorse,
and you must not forget that,
1558
02:07:31,709 --> 02:07:36,001
even if I didn't kill him,
I did think about killing him.