1 00:00:05,246 --> 00:00:08,249 [Josh] My obsession is to investigate 2 00:00:08,353 --> 00:00:10,803 and find missing victims. 3 00:00:11,149 --> 00:00:13,254 I think that there is value in doing that, 4 00:00:13,358 --> 00:00:15,118 especially as we move this case along 5 00:00:15,222 --> 00:00:17,293 that no one else is looking into. 6 00:00:19,329 --> 00:00:22,332 Israel Keyes said, "I'm a serial killer 7 00:00:22,436 --> 00:00:25,128 who's traveled the country for the last 12 years 8 00:00:25,232 --> 00:00:28,545 and I killed over 50 people." 9 00:00:29,132 --> 00:00:32,170 He would travel the country and hide 10 00:00:32,273 --> 00:00:37,554 kits full of weapons, rape tools, 11 00:00:37,658 --> 00:00:39,729 sometimes costumes. 12 00:00:39,832 --> 00:00:41,938 He's known as the most meticulous serial killer 13 00:00:42,042 --> 00:00:44,389 who would plan crimes years in advance. 14 00:00:46,046 --> 00:00:49,704 This is about Keyes, and his victims, 15 00:00:49,980 --> 00:00:51,741 and their families. 16 00:00:52,293 --> 00:00:53,915 I have articles. 17 00:00:54,226 --> 00:00:56,849 What's been really important to me is taking trips 18 00:00:56,953 --> 00:00:58,748 to places Keyes went 19 00:00:58,851 --> 00:01:01,199 to look into potential victims. 20 00:01:01,889 --> 00:01:03,925 If we can get people interested in this case 21 00:01:04,029 --> 00:01:05,272 and get more information out there, 22 00:01:05,375 --> 00:01:08,447 we're likely to get more information back, 23 00:01:08,999 --> 00:01:13,211 which could help us identify victims. 24 00:01:13,935 --> 00:01:16,766 Maybe I can find something the FBI couldn't. 25 00:01:19,769 --> 00:01:23,324 [rain falling] 26 00:01:31,988 --> 00:01:33,231 In an unreleased interview, 27 00:01:33,334 --> 00:01:36,475 the FBI reported that his victims ranged in age 28 00:01:36,579 --> 00:01:38,788 from late teens to the elderly. 29 00:01:38,891 --> 00:01:40,790 Now, there's a few things to note. 30 00:01:40,893 --> 00:01:41,894 My name is Josh Hallmark. 31 00:01:41,998 --> 00:01:45,070 I produce a podcast called True Crime Bullshit. 32 00:01:45,174 --> 00:01:46,968 I've returned to the tapes and files 33 00:01:47,072 --> 00:01:48,246 to reassess the periods of time... 34 00:01:48,349 --> 00:01:51,490 In 2012, I was living in Seattle, 35 00:01:51,594 --> 00:01:53,975 writing advertising materials 36 00:01:54,079 --> 00:01:56,875 for non-profit healthcare insurance. 37 00:01:57,324 --> 00:01:59,429 I quickly found a co-worker 38 00:01:59,533 --> 00:02:03,192 who was also a big consumer of true crime media 39 00:02:03,295 --> 00:02:05,159 and was fascinated with crime. 40 00:02:05,263 --> 00:02:08,404 And so we would have our weird watercooler talks 41 00:02:08,507 --> 00:02:11,579 about crimes that were interesting or scary 42 00:02:11,683 --> 00:02:12,822 or devastating. 43 00:02:13,926 --> 00:02:18,172 And one day she peaked over the cubicle wall, 44 00:02:18,276 --> 00:02:21,520 was like, "Hey, there's this new serial killer. 45 00:02:21,624 --> 00:02:23,557 Have you heard about this guy?" 46 00:02:24,247 --> 00:02:26,698 And so that piqued my interest immediately. 47 00:02:27,043 --> 00:02:29,218 It was like, "Oh, there's a modern-day serial killer?" 48 00:02:31,979 --> 00:02:35,293 So we started looking up the Samantha Koenig case. 49 00:02:35,879 --> 00:02:39,918 Samantha Koenig was a barista living in Anchorage, Alaska. 50 00:02:40,401 --> 00:02:43,991 She was working at a drive-through coffee stand. 51 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,823 Was closing up one night in early 2012. 52 00:02:51,067 --> 00:02:53,828 A man came by, ordered a coffee. 53 00:02:55,071 --> 00:02:56,969 He crawled through the window 54 00:02:57,177 --> 00:02:58,592 and abducted her. 55 00:03:00,559 --> 00:03:02,699 The first ransom request texted the family 56 00:03:02,803 --> 00:03:05,461 to go a park and go to the bulletin board there, 57 00:03:05,564 --> 00:03:09,050 and underneath a missing dog poster 58 00:03:09,154 --> 00:03:12,226 was a typed ransom letter. 59 00:03:12,744 --> 00:03:17,127 From there, they started, I guess, negotiating 60 00:03:17,231 --> 00:03:18,853 how the ransom would be paid 61 00:03:18,957 --> 00:03:20,338 via text messages 62 00:03:20,441 --> 00:03:23,720 between Samantha's phone and her father. 63 00:03:23,824 --> 00:03:25,550 He wants $30,000. 64 00:03:27,034 --> 00:03:29,726 In the meantime, the suspect's testing out 65 00:03:29,830 --> 00:03:33,178 Samantha's debit card to see how much money is already on it. 66 00:03:33,385 --> 00:03:34,593 That's what got him busted. 67 00:03:36,008 --> 00:03:37,389 They were able to follow 68 00:03:37,493 --> 00:03:40,323 the tracks of these debit transactions. 69 00:03:40,634 --> 00:03:42,739 Then they caught his rental car on camera. 70 00:03:42,843 --> 00:03:43,913 And that was it. 71 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:54,130 His name was Israel Keyes. 72 00:03:54,613 --> 00:03:59,446 Keyes was arrested in Texas, March 13th, 2012. 73 00:04:11,147 --> 00:04:12,907 They found a litany 74 00:04:13,011 --> 00:04:15,496 of suspicious items in his rental car, 75 00:04:16,842 --> 00:04:18,499 women's clothing. 76 00:04:18,603 --> 00:04:21,433 They found large amounts of cash, 77 00:04:21,537 --> 00:04:24,264 tons of weapons in the trunk of his car. 78 00:04:33,065 --> 00:04:35,136 A lot of the Keyes interrogations 79 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,622 had somehow made their way to YouTube. 80 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,982 I was fascinated by him. 81 00:04:54,086 --> 00:04:56,986 I think he felt like he was running game. 82 00:04:57,089 --> 00:04:59,437 He had been arrested, but he was in control. 83 00:05:05,615 --> 00:05:08,031 Keyes named three victims, 84 00:05:08,273 --> 00:05:10,310 Bill and Lorraine Currier, 85 00:05:10,620 --> 00:05:12,415 and Samantha Koenig. 86 00:05:12,864 --> 00:05:16,143 Keyes confessed he raped and killed Samantha 87 00:05:16,246 --> 00:05:18,110 in the shed in his driveway. 88 00:05:19,077 --> 00:05:20,596 His dismembered her, 89 00:05:20,699 --> 00:05:23,599 took her remains out to Matanuska Lake, 90 00:05:23,702 --> 00:05:26,187 about 40 miles north of Anchorage, 91 00:05:26,291 --> 00:05:30,019 and set up an ice fishing tent, 92 00:05:30,468 --> 00:05:34,955 and slowly and methodically submerged 93 00:05:35,058 --> 00:05:36,646 her remains in the lake. 94 00:05:36,750 --> 00:05:39,373 And then he went home and fed his family 95 00:05:39,477 --> 00:05:42,031 the fish that he caught while he was out there. 96 00:05:43,343 --> 00:05:45,724 About six months before Samantha, 97 00:05:45,828 --> 00:05:48,140 Keyes rented a car in cash, 98 00:05:48,244 --> 00:05:50,936 drove that car to Vermont, 99 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,560 abducted two people from their home, 100 00:05:53,663 --> 00:05:57,046 Bill and Lorraine Currier, raped and murdered them. 101 00:05:57,702 --> 00:06:01,430 Their remains had been abandoned in a farmhouse. 102 00:06:02,741 --> 00:06:04,674 Keyes said, "I'm a serial killer 103 00:06:04,778 --> 00:06:07,746 who's traveled the country for the last 12 years. 104 00:06:07,850 --> 00:06:10,991 I've killed over 50 people." 105 00:06:11,405 --> 00:06:15,167 There is something excruciatingly terrifying 106 00:06:15,271 --> 00:06:17,169 about 50 victims. 107 00:06:21,795 --> 00:06:24,487 He's known as the most meticulous serial killer 108 00:06:24,591 --> 00:06:26,731 who would plan crimes years in advance 109 00:06:26,834 --> 00:06:28,249 and traveled great distances. 110 00:06:28,353 --> 00:06:31,460 He was in almost every state while he was operating. 111 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,091 My partner literally eventually started 112 00:06:42,194 --> 00:06:43,472 sleeping in the living room 113 00:06:43,575 --> 00:06:46,682 'cause I turned our bedroom into a war room. 114 00:06:49,961 --> 00:06:53,205 I was just, all day long, listening to Israel Keyes 115 00:06:53,309 --> 00:06:55,518 talk about murdering people. 116 00:07:01,766 --> 00:07:04,976 The FBI seized his girlfriend's computer 117 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:06,702 as well as his computer. 118 00:07:06,805 --> 00:07:10,291 And while they were running data analysis, 119 00:07:10,499 --> 00:07:13,778 they found thousands of images. 120 00:07:14,399 --> 00:07:16,021 They ran those images through NamUs, 121 00:07:16,125 --> 00:07:17,644 which is a government organization 122 00:07:17,747 --> 00:07:19,093 for missing people, 123 00:07:19,197 --> 00:07:20,819 using facial recognition. 124 00:07:20,923 --> 00:07:24,133 And NamUs found 45 matches. 125 00:07:24,616 --> 00:07:27,170 Of those 45, the Curriers were two , 126 00:07:27,274 --> 00:07:30,553 as well as other victims I would investigate later. 127 00:07:33,694 --> 00:07:35,834 Nine months after he was arrested, 128 00:07:35,938 --> 00:07:37,698 he got a hold of a razor blade 129 00:07:38,458 --> 00:07:40,080 and he slit his wrists, 130 00:07:40,183 --> 00:07:43,635 and then used a bedsheet to hang himself in his cell. 131 00:07:43,739 --> 00:07:46,535 He was found several hours later, dead. 132 00:07:48,744 --> 00:07:50,366 They find a note, 133 00:07:50,470 --> 00:07:53,127 which is actually drenched in blood, 134 00:07:53,921 --> 00:07:58,478 four pages of freestyle writing. 135 00:07:59,064 --> 00:08:03,275 It looked like song lyrics from death metal bands he liked. 136 00:08:03,379 --> 00:08:06,278 It was kind of a manifesto. 137 00:08:07,901 --> 00:08:11,594 They found this drawing in his own blood 138 00:08:11,698 --> 00:08:13,631 of 12 skulls, 139 00:08:13,734 --> 00:08:15,598 and then, scrawled underneath it, 140 00:08:15,702 --> 00:08:17,669 is "We are all one." 141 00:08:18,359 --> 00:08:21,259 The FBI believed the skulls represented Keyes 142 00:08:21,362 --> 00:08:23,503 and his victims. 143 00:08:24,434 --> 00:08:26,851 So it's reasonable to assume 144 00:08:26,954 --> 00:08:30,924 that Keyes had killed at least 11, probably more. 145 00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:41,348 Many of the FBI agents 146 00:08:41,451 --> 00:08:43,350 who were investigating this case 147 00:08:43,557 --> 00:08:44,765 didn't wanna give it up, 148 00:08:44,869 --> 00:08:46,387 but, because of resources 149 00:08:46,491 --> 00:08:48,597 and because Keyes was no longer with us, 150 00:08:49,218 --> 00:08:50,530 they had to. 151 00:08:52,739 --> 00:08:54,879 It was narratively so different 152 00:08:54,982 --> 00:08:56,225 from what we're accustomed to, 153 00:08:56,328 --> 00:08:59,435 which is crime, victim, killer, 154 00:08:59,539 --> 00:09:03,508 and here it was killer, crime, victims? 155 00:09:03,957 --> 00:09:06,097 I realize, "Here we have this killer 156 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:07,754 who no one's looking into 157 00:09:07,857 --> 00:09:10,446 and at least eight victims who had never been identified." 158 00:09:10,550 --> 00:09:14,243 And that's where interest became obsession. 159 00:09:14,623 --> 00:09:15,831 When I was growing up, 160 00:09:15,934 --> 00:09:18,592 I was always an oddly curious kid. 161 00:09:18,696 --> 00:09:20,560 [Reporter] His remains would be found buried... 162 00:09:20,663 --> 00:09:22,423 [Josh] Even as a weirdo little kid, 163 00:09:22,527 --> 00:09:24,909 I was looking into serial killers 164 00:09:25,012 --> 00:09:26,773 and missing persons cases. 165 00:09:29,914 --> 00:09:32,917 And then we had a family tragedy. 166 00:09:34,021 --> 00:09:37,680 My second cousins, they were about my age. 167 00:09:39,268 --> 00:09:41,339 There was a break-in at their home. 168 00:09:41,650 --> 00:09:43,583 A man kicked down the door, 169 00:09:46,068 --> 00:09:47,414 and the older of the two boys 170 00:09:47,517 --> 00:09:50,520 who was, I think, seven 171 00:09:50,935 --> 00:09:52,453 was running to call 911 172 00:09:52,557 --> 00:09:54,455 and the man shot him in the stomach. 173 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,803 And then he found the younger, Daniel, 174 00:09:59,081 --> 00:10:02,394 and he led him into the bedroom 175 00:10:02,498 --> 00:10:05,466 where their mother was hiding. 176 00:10:05,570 --> 00:10:07,676 And he shot them both in the head. 177 00:10:12,163 --> 00:10:14,752 Billy, who was shot in the stomach, survived. 178 00:10:17,547 --> 00:10:19,998 And like, it... 179 00:10:23,139 --> 00:10:25,866 It hit home in a really real way. 180 00:10:28,006 --> 00:10:30,664 I really started, at 12 years old, 181 00:10:30,768 --> 00:10:34,392 evaluating my relationship with true crime. 182 00:10:35,876 --> 00:10:38,189 I think, because I have an understanding 183 00:10:38,292 --> 00:10:40,363 of how grief and trauma affect people, 184 00:10:40,467 --> 00:10:43,539 it really struck a nerve with me. 185 00:10:44,091 --> 00:10:46,611 There was all these families who don't have answers, 186 00:10:46,715 --> 00:10:49,165 and the answers are with this guy 187 00:10:49,269 --> 00:10:50,753 who just killed himself. 188 00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:57,760 What's been really important to me 189 00:10:57,864 --> 00:10:59,866 is to look into potential victims. 190 00:11:01,177 --> 00:11:05,181 Producing this podcast, I can share this research, 191 00:11:05,285 --> 00:11:06,355 and the further we do it 192 00:11:06,458 --> 00:11:08,150 and the further more people get involved, 193 00:11:08,253 --> 00:11:09,910 we learn more. 194 00:11:11,325 --> 00:11:13,465 So here I am, over 10 years later, 195 00:11:13,569 --> 00:11:15,640 doing everything I can 196 00:11:15,744 --> 00:11:18,298 to find answers if they're there. 197 00:11:18,678 --> 00:11:20,887 Taking trips to places Keyes went 198 00:11:20,990 --> 00:11:24,407 could be critical in the investigation into Keyes. 199 00:11:24,891 --> 00:11:26,409 There is nothing that is going to stop me 200 00:11:26,513 --> 00:11:28,791 from going out and further investigating it. 201 00:11:35,246 --> 00:11:37,110 He had researched and read other serial killers. 202 00:11:37,213 --> 00:11:39,906 Israel Keyes didn't kidnap and kill people 203 00:11:40,009 --> 00:11:41,528 because he was crazy. 204 00:11:41,631 --> 00:11:43,081 Israel Keyes did this 205 00:11:43,185 --> 00:11:45,118 because he got an immense amount of enjoyment out of it. 206 00:11:46,775 --> 00:11:48,224 I had consumed enough true crime 207 00:11:48,328 --> 00:11:51,400 that I knew about the Freedom of Information Act requests. 208 00:11:53,264 --> 00:11:55,991 So I filed one of those with the FBI. 209 00:11:57,647 --> 00:11:59,580 And then the files came. 210 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:03,377 I was not anticipating over 4,000 pages. 211 00:12:04,689 --> 00:12:07,692 I start going through the files and the interviews, 212 00:12:07,796 --> 00:12:10,591 and the FBI has created 213 00:12:10,695 --> 00:12:12,386 a pretty substantial timeline. 214 00:12:13,491 --> 00:12:16,287 I can see where Keyes has traveled to. 215 00:12:17,081 --> 00:12:18,634 It's great, it's helpful, 216 00:12:18,738 --> 00:12:20,325 because there's a lot of components 217 00:12:20,429 --> 00:12:23,087 linking Keyes to potential victims. 218 00:12:23,397 --> 00:12:26,021 So first is places he returned to 219 00:12:26,124 --> 00:12:27,712 over and over and over again, 220 00:12:27,816 --> 00:12:29,852 which is critical in his MO. 221 00:12:29,956 --> 00:12:31,820 It shows intent. 222 00:12:32,027 --> 00:12:34,167 Keyes had told the FBI, 223 00:12:34,270 --> 00:12:35,789 every time he was out in the woods 224 00:12:35,893 --> 00:12:37,515 or anytime he was out, driving around, 225 00:12:37,618 --> 00:12:40,725 he would look for places that he could abduct people to 226 00:12:40,829 --> 00:12:42,106 or abduct people from. 227 00:12:42,209 --> 00:12:44,384 And then he would go back and wait in the woods 228 00:12:44,487 --> 00:12:47,042 for the right opportunity and the right person. 229 00:12:47,387 --> 00:12:49,769 So we should be looking for bodies 230 00:12:49,872 --> 00:12:52,185 near roads that he would've taken. 231 00:12:52,495 --> 00:12:54,083 Who went missing nearby? 232 00:12:54,187 --> 00:12:57,155 Can we place them in the area at the time? 233 00:12:57,431 --> 00:12:59,261 And, okay, add it to the timeline. 234 00:12:59,502 --> 00:13:03,713 And it's essentially a timeline of his entire life. 235 00:13:04,369 --> 00:13:06,889 I did a bunch of research. I talked to experts. 236 00:13:07,407 --> 00:13:09,409 [Reporter] Investigators say Israel Keyes told authorities 237 00:13:09,512 --> 00:13:11,963 he strategically hid a box filled with weapons 238 00:13:12,067 --> 00:13:14,207 and tools near the Winooski River. 239 00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:17,900 Keyes quickly became known for his kill kits. 240 00:13:18,521 --> 00:13:22,249 He would travel the country and would bury or hide 241 00:13:22,353 --> 00:13:27,013 kits, usually buckets, full of weapons, 242 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:30,948 rape tools, sometimes costumes. 243 00:13:31,051 --> 00:13:32,950 Keyes talked about hiking there, 244 00:13:33,053 --> 00:13:35,021 thinking about burying a kill kit there. 245 00:13:35,124 --> 00:13:37,644 He had gone out there, looking for victims, so... 246 00:13:37,747 --> 00:13:39,404 And it's right off the road, 247 00:13:39,508 --> 00:13:41,199 so when you're driving through, you would see it and be like, 248 00:13:41,303 --> 00:13:43,788 -"Maybe I'll stop there..." - It's a tourist destination. 249 00:13:43,892 --> 00:13:45,376 It seems like a really easy place 250 00:13:45,479 --> 00:13:48,551 to bury a body and have nobody question it. 251 00:13:48,655 --> 00:13:51,727 [Josh] It's heavy stuff to do on your own. 252 00:13:51,969 --> 00:13:53,971 And I was, in the first two years, 253 00:13:54,074 --> 00:13:57,250 68 to 80 hours a week on this by myself 254 00:13:57,353 --> 00:13:59,321 with no one really to turn to. 255 00:13:59,424 --> 00:14:01,081 I think it was because they were doing construction, right? 256 00:14:01,185 --> 00:14:02,013 Is that what you figured out? 257 00:14:02,117 --> 00:14:03,670 They had done construction since... 258 00:14:03,773 --> 00:14:05,120 I was never looking for a team. 259 00:14:05,223 --> 00:14:07,225 It happened very organically. 260 00:14:07,329 --> 00:14:10,470 There was no way I was inviting someone 261 00:14:10,573 --> 00:14:13,300 into this thing that I cared so much about, 262 00:14:13,404 --> 00:14:16,027 that I'd already poured years of my life into. 263 00:14:16,407 --> 00:14:19,410 But three people weaseled their way in. 264 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,275 And now I don't know what I'd do without them. 265 00:14:22,378 --> 00:14:23,724 As an investigative journalist, 266 00:14:23,828 --> 00:14:26,693 one thing that we can do that the police can't always do 267 00:14:26,796 --> 00:14:28,212 is we have the time 268 00:14:28,315 --> 00:14:31,801 to follow the rabbit holes that we wanna follow. 269 00:14:32,319 --> 00:14:34,977 [Josh] I wanna say certainty doesn't exist 270 00:14:35,081 --> 00:14:37,566 without forensic evidence. 271 00:14:37,669 --> 00:14:38,774 And I am not there yet, 272 00:14:38,878 --> 00:14:41,397 and I don't know that I will ever have the tools to be there, 273 00:14:41,501 --> 00:14:43,054 so, unfortunately, at this point, 274 00:14:43,158 --> 00:14:47,058 it's me hopefully inspiring people 275 00:14:47,162 --> 00:14:49,164 who do have the tools to do the work. 276 00:14:52,305 --> 00:14:54,859 What's been really important to me is taking trips 277 00:14:54,963 --> 00:14:56,896 to places Keyes went 278 00:14:57,206 --> 00:14:58,898 to look into potential victims. 279 00:15:00,554 --> 00:15:03,005 What I can do in the field is see things 280 00:15:03,109 --> 00:15:05,352 that a computer can never show me. 281 00:15:05,801 --> 00:15:08,183 Being on the ground, you have a better understanding 282 00:15:08,286 --> 00:15:10,668 of the culture of an environment. 283 00:15:11,151 --> 00:15:13,360 And, also, would someone like Israel Keyes 284 00:15:13,464 --> 00:15:15,776 blend in here or would he stick out? 285 00:15:16,501 --> 00:15:20,436 Southern California is what I call a hotspot. 286 00:15:20,989 --> 00:15:23,060 It's these places we can put Keyes in 287 00:15:23,163 --> 00:15:24,924 over and over and over again. 288 00:15:26,235 --> 00:15:28,203 So this trip, I'm going down 289 00:15:28,306 --> 00:15:29,756 because of a missing persons case 290 00:15:29,859 --> 00:15:31,171 out of Riverside County 291 00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:35,106 that I believe could be a Keyes case. 292 00:15:35,417 --> 00:15:38,006 We've done as much as we can online. 293 00:15:38,523 --> 00:15:41,285 Now I'd actually like to go see the terrain myself. 294 00:15:47,394 --> 00:15:50,052 California's critical because Keyes' girlfriend 295 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:52,468 did a lot of work down here. 296 00:15:53,090 --> 00:15:55,540 I know for a fact he came down to Riverside 297 00:15:55,644 --> 00:15:59,130 or to this general area at least twice 298 00:15:59,234 --> 00:16:01,236 to visit her while she was working. 299 00:16:05,481 --> 00:16:08,312 There's a gentleman who disappeared from Riverside 300 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:11,522 at a time where we can't place Keyes anywhere. 301 00:16:14,904 --> 00:16:17,321 Donald Tobin is a older gay man 302 00:16:17,424 --> 00:16:19,944 who was living in Riverside. 303 00:16:20,669 --> 00:16:23,810 Decided to go take some stuff to storage one day. 304 00:16:24,155 --> 00:16:26,399 And he was never seen again. 305 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:32,405 Donald Tobin was last seen July 7th of 2010. 306 00:16:33,578 --> 00:16:37,306 His car was found about a mile from his house. 307 00:16:37,410 --> 00:16:39,688 And all the stuff he was going to take to storage 308 00:16:39,791 --> 00:16:41,172 was still in it. 309 00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:42,518 It was found in a place he would never go. 310 00:16:42,622 --> 00:16:44,555 It's a dog park near the freeway. 311 00:16:45,970 --> 00:16:49,387 And that was it. No one could explain what happened. 312 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:54,427 We've also got Keyes' online search records, 313 00:16:54,530 --> 00:16:56,256 looking for someone who disappeared 314 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,120 in Riverside County that week 315 00:16:58,224 --> 00:17:00,847 when Donald Tobin disappeared. 316 00:17:01,434 --> 00:17:04,402 We looked at the timeline and it's very tight, 317 00:17:04,506 --> 00:17:09,580 but Keyes was unaccounted for in about 20 hours 318 00:17:09,683 --> 00:17:11,961 surrounding Donald's disappearance. 319 00:17:12,169 --> 00:17:14,481 And as we got further into the investigation, 320 00:17:14,585 --> 00:17:16,932 we realized there was a very good likelihood 321 00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:20,591 that Keyes was trolling gay men online. 322 00:17:20,763 --> 00:17:22,351 Donald was gay. 323 00:17:22,455 --> 00:17:25,216 Keyes, he never came out of the closet, socially, 324 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,599 but he was bisexual and sexually motivated. 325 00:17:30,428 --> 00:17:32,603 I hope I can find how easy it is 326 00:17:32,706 --> 00:17:33,742 to stay concealed there 327 00:17:33,845 --> 00:17:38,264 and how easy it is to get from where the car was found 328 00:17:38,367 --> 00:17:41,508 to this gentleman's house without being seen. 329 00:17:41,612 --> 00:17:45,167 Something that will either make it seem 330 00:17:45,271 --> 00:17:46,996 more certain that it was Keyes 331 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:48,722 or rule Keyes out. 332 00:17:59,008 --> 00:18:01,321 [Josh] We are at Carlson Dog Park. 333 00:18:01,666 --> 00:18:04,255 This is where Donald Tobin's car was found. 334 00:18:04,566 --> 00:18:05,843 It's a couple miles from his house 335 00:18:05,946 --> 00:18:07,465 in Riverside. 336 00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:11,124 Then from here, we'll do a quick hike 337 00:18:11,228 --> 00:18:13,402 of this trail at Mount Rubidoux. 338 00:18:13,782 --> 00:18:16,578 Get a lay of the land, see are there places to hide. 339 00:18:17,786 --> 00:18:20,927 So you can see up here, there's houses 340 00:18:21,030 --> 00:18:22,791 just over here to the right. 341 00:18:23,102 --> 00:18:25,276 That's a neighborhood Tobin lived in. 342 00:18:25,380 --> 00:18:27,796 He lived walking distance, less than a mile 343 00:18:27,899 --> 00:18:29,522 from where we are now. 344 00:18:29,625 --> 00:18:30,937 And, again, this trail goes 345 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:32,421 basically right into his backyard. 346 00:18:32,525 --> 00:18:34,078 I think it's about a block from his house, 347 00:18:34,182 --> 00:18:36,253 where he was last seen. 348 00:18:36,943 --> 00:18:39,704 Keyes talked extensively in his interviews 349 00:18:39,808 --> 00:18:42,914 about stalking trail heads and using trail heads. 350 00:18:45,572 --> 00:18:46,953 The other thing that stands out 351 00:18:47,056 --> 00:18:50,853 is there's this cross up there. 352 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,064 Keyes mother was a big fan of extremist religions. 353 00:18:55,444 --> 00:18:59,207 They were in the fundamentalist Christian church 354 00:18:59,310 --> 00:19:01,795 outside of Spokane, Washington. 355 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:05,799 He's raised essentially off the grid. 356 00:19:06,421 --> 00:19:10,218 He was not introduced to culture, 357 00:19:10,321 --> 00:19:12,599 other people, humanity, 358 00:19:12,703 --> 00:19:17,535 and was surrounded by people who didn't value human life, 359 00:19:17,639 --> 00:19:20,297 who openly hated gay people, 360 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,197 and black people, and brown people, and... 361 00:19:24,646 --> 00:19:27,166 Imagine what that fosters. 362 00:19:28,236 --> 00:19:31,998 He's talked a lot about his animosity 363 00:19:32,101 --> 00:19:34,173 towards organized religion. 364 00:19:34,587 --> 00:19:37,762 Seeing the cross up on the hill, he talked about 365 00:19:37,866 --> 00:19:41,456 wanting to kill people at religious sites and churches. 366 00:19:42,802 --> 00:19:44,321 What most likely would've occurred 367 00:19:44,424 --> 00:19:46,944 is Keyes broke into Donald Tobin's house 368 00:19:47,186 --> 00:19:50,672 and then abducted him in his own car. 369 00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:52,639 Took him to a second location, 370 00:19:52,743 --> 00:19:56,022 where he presumably would've sexually assaulted 371 00:19:56,125 --> 00:19:57,851 and then murdered him. 372 00:19:58,266 --> 00:20:00,820 Took him to a third location to bury him. 373 00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:03,305 And then parked his car here. 374 00:20:03,616 --> 00:20:05,583 Then Keyes could've easily, from here, walked 375 00:20:05,687 --> 00:20:07,206 back to wherever his car was 376 00:20:07,309 --> 00:20:09,449 without ever having been seen. 377 00:20:11,727 --> 00:20:14,730 Keyes wanted to create distance from his crimes 378 00:20:14,834 --> 00:20:16,215 as quickly as possible. 379 00:20:16,456 --> 00:20:18,251 That's very easy for someone 380 00:20:18,355 --> 00:20:20,288 to get from here back onto the freeway 381 00:20:20,391 --> 00:20:22,221 in a short period of time. 382 00:20:23,877 --> 00:20:25,154 So if you look at the big picture, 383 00:20:25,258 --> 00:20:27,433 you've got a trail head. 384 00:20:27,812 --> 00:20:31,195 You've got an environment Keyes is in frequently, 385 00:20:31,299 --> 00:20:33,542 and it's very compelling 386 00:20:33,646 --> 00:20:35,924 I think it warrants further investigation 387 00:20:36,027 --> 00:20:39,030 into the potential that Keyes was involved 388 00:20:39,134 --> 00:20:40,929 in Donald Tobin's disappearance. 389 00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:44,415 I published all of this information 390 00:20:44,519 --> 00:20:47,280 as ethically as possible in the podcast, 391 00:20:47,384 --> 00:20:49,938 and immediately put it out into the world. 392 00:20:50,421 --> 00:20:52,354 If we can get people interested in this case 393 00:20:52,458 --> 00:20:53,666 and get more information out there, 394 00:20:53,769 --> 00:20:56,255 we're likely to get more information back, 395 00:20:56,358 --> 00:20:59,775 which could help us identify victims. 396 00:21:06,575 --> 00:21:07,956 The other thing I look for 397 00:21:08,059 --> 00:21:10,027 is Keyes' buried kill kits, 398 00:21:10,614 --> 00:21:13,962 often near locations where he planned on abducting people. 399 00:21:23,247 --> 00:21:24,559 Either he would literally bury them 400 00:21:24,662 --> 00:21:26,975 or he would hide them in boulders. 401 00:21:27,976 --> 00:21:29,288 Keyes would return to the kill kits. 402 00:21:43,129 --> 00:21:46,132 He told the FBI items he took from his victims 403 00:21:46,235 --> 00:21:47,236 are in some of these kill kits, 404 00:21:47,340 --> 00:21:49,998 so they are very valuable. 405 00:21:53,691 --> 00:21:56,729 [GPS] Head west toward Ramona Expressway. 406 00:21:57,764 --> 00:21:59,283 Just gonna go out to Lake Perris 407 00:21:59,387 --> 00:22:01,630 where we have a very credible sighting 408 00:22:01,734 --> 00:22:05,151 placing Keyes potentially with a kill kit. 409 00:22:05,427 --> 00:22:07,049 This particular tip came in 410 00:22:07,153 --> 00:22:11,571 with the FOIA files I got from the FBI in 2018. 411 00:22:12,434 --> 00:22:14,678 Former FBI agent Bobby Chacon 412 00:22:14,781 --> 00:22:16,369 is gonna meet me out there. 413 00:22:16,645 --> 00:22:18,716 He actually worked the case 414 00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:20,339 and was responsible for finding 415 00:22:20,442 --> 00:22:23,031 one of the kill kits up in Upstate New York. 416 00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:26,793 So this will be my first time going out to Lake Perris. 417 00:22:27,346 --> 00:22:28,312 It's also gonna be the first time 418 00:22:28,416 --> 00:22:30,038 Bobby's been out to Lake Perris, 419 00:22:30,141 --> 00:22:31,764 especially as someone 420 00:22:31,867 --> 00:22:34,870 who's seen places that Keyes has killed before. 421 00:22:35,146 --> 00:22:36,734 I know he's pretty eager 422 00:22:36,838 --> 00:22:38,495 to get his eyes on this place. 423 00:22:40,462 --> 00:22:43,154 - Hey. Hey, Josh. - [Josh] Bobby. 424 00:22:43,534 --> 00:22:45,225 - Good to see you. - [Josh] Thanks for coming out. 425 00:22:45,329 --> 00:22:47,607 No worries. This is my backyard, kinda. 426 00:22:52,716 --> 00:22:55,684 [Josh] Bobby Chacon is one of the first people I talked to 427 00:22:55,788 --> 00:22:57,824 when I started digging into this case 428 00:22:57,928 --> 00:23:01,276 and a really great proponent of the work I do. 429 00:23:01,621 --> 00:23:04,313 I was involved in the Israel Keyes case 430 00:23:04,417 --> 00:23:05,660 when I was with the FBI. 431 00:23:05,763 --> 00:23:08,490 In fact, my dive team went into Alaska 432 00:23:08,594 --> 00:23:10,975 and we recovered his final victim, 433 00:23:11,251 --> 00:23:13,495 Samantha Koenig. 434 00:23:14,254 --> 00:23:16,084 [Josh] This tip came in shortly after Keyes died, 435 00:23:16,187 --> 00:23:17,775 before a lot of the details of the case 436 00:23:17,879 --> 00:23:19,812 had been made public yet. 437 00:23:20,537 --> 00:23:23,712 It was somebody who identified Israel Keyes here 438 00:23:23,816 --> 00:23:25,645 as having met him one day. 439 00:23:28,130 --> 00:23:31,237 [Josh] This guy's out here, fishing, in March 2011. 440 00:23:31,513 --> 00:23:34,102 And Keyes approaches him. 441 00:23:34,723 --> 00:23:37,657 He starts talking about how he's hunting. 442 00:23:38,417 --> 00:23:40,591 And the guy's like, "There's nothing out here to hunt." 443 00:23:41,212 --> 00:23:43,422 And Keyes is like, "I'm here to hunt prey." 444 00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:46,770 He was real creeped out by it. 445 00:23:47,046 --> 00:23:48,323 Keyes asks him, 446 00:23:48,427 --> 00:23:50,532 "if you disappeared, would anyone know?" 447 00:23:51,568 --> 00:23:53,362 He says Keyes comes out of the woods 448 00:23:53,466 --> 00:23:54,847 near the porta potties. 449 00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:58,989 He's got a rusted shovel, a home depot bucket, 450 00:23:59,092 --> 00:24:00,542 and a fishing pole. 451 00:24:01,129 --> 00:24:03,476 Then he sees him later, hiking back up into the woods 452 00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:06,548 with this rusted shovel and a bucket. 453 00:24:08,377 --> 00:24:09,689 He said he immediately knew 454 00:24:09,793 --> 00:24:11,346 this was the man that he had encountered 455 00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:13,106 when he saw Israel Keyes' photograph. 456 00:24:13,210 --> 00:24:14,694 [Bobby] Really? Wow. 457 00:24:16,247 --> 00:24:17,801 [Josh] And so we know Keyes was 458 00:24:17,904 --> 00:24:20,182 active in the area at the time. 459 00:24:20,286 --> 00:24:23,531 And it turns out, close to a year prior, 460 00:24:23,634 --> 00:24:26,879 Donald Tobin disappeared within 20 miles away. 461 00:24:28,018 --> 00:24:29,329 On top of that, 462 00:24:29,433 --> 00:24:31,193 we have Kristine Nicole Hamilton 463 00:24:31,297 --> 00:24:32,643 also found on Keyes' computer. 464 00:24:32,747 --> 00:24:35,335 She disappeared not far from there. 465 00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:38,718 If Keyes was there, what are the greater implications? 466 00:24:40,444 --> 00:24:42,653 [Bobby] Look at all the places you have to hide something 467 00:24:42,757 --> 00:24:44,586 if you were gonna hide a kill kit, right? 468 00:24:44,931 --> 00:24:47,140 You can see all these boulders and these rocks here. 469 00:24:47,244 --> 00:24:49,211 Those are the perfect kind of terrain 470 00:24:49,315 --> 00:24:51,179 that he could dig a small hole behind a rock 471 00:24:51,282 --> 00:24:52,663 and put one of those kits in the ground, 472 00:24:52,767 --> 00:24:54,389 and then he could use the rock as a marker. 473 00:24:54,493 --> 00:24:57,047 He could make a mental note of what that rock looked like 474 00:24:57,150 --> 00:24:58,566 and come back to it. 475 00:24:59,325 --> 00:25:02,397 Now, [chuckling] if you had to search that whole area, 476 00:25:02,501 --> 00:25:03,778 it would literally take you months 477 00:25:03,881 --> 00:25:05,400 because there are so many boulders 478 00:25:05,504 --> 00:25:07,506 and that's why it's such a good location for him to use, 479 00:25:07,609 --> 00:25:09,404 but if I was here with an FBI team, 480 00:25:09,508 --> 00:25:11,717 I'd probably have 100 agents up there, 481 00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:13,926 searching that hill, and it could take us a month. 482 00:25:15,514 --> 00:25:16,998 A lot of serial killers, 483 00:25:17,101 --> 00:25:20,035 they have this ritual that leads up to the killing. 484 00:25:20,380 --> 00:25:21,830 Hiding those kill kits, 485 00:25:21,934 --> 00:25:24,108 picking out places that he would eventually use, 486 00:25:24,212 --> 00:25:26,076 even if he wasn't gonna use it that day, 487 00:25:26,179 --> 00:25:28,250 weeks, months later. 488 00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:30,425 This was all part of who he was 489 00:25:30,529 --> 00:25:31,599 as a predator. 490 00:25:35,637 --> 00:25:37,605 This certainly has a lot of the elements 491 00:25:37,708 --> 00:25:40,055 that some of those other places we know he was at, 492 00:25:40,159 --> 00:25:42,126 like Matanuska. 493 00:25:42,713 --> 00:25:45,440 Lake Matanuska is the lake where Israel Keyes 494 00:25:45,544 --> 00:25:47,407 deposited his last victim, Samantha Koenig, 495 00:25:47,511 --> 00:25:49,306 when he murdered and dismembered her. 496 00:25:50,652 --> 00:25:53,275 A lot of criminals that decide to use water 497 00:25:53,379 --> 00:25:54,553 use it again and again and again 498 00:25:54,656 --> 00:25:56,727 because they feel like it's a place 499 00:25:56,831 --> 00:25:59,661 that evidence goes and never gets recovered. 500 00:26:00,835 --> 00:26:02,664 [Josh] So in terms of credibility on this tip, 501 00:26:02,768 --> 00:26:04,148 - what do you think? - Look, 502 00:26:04,252 --> 00:26:07,358 it fits all the criteria that Keyes used 503 00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:10,361 to pick out not only victims but places. 504 00:26:12,363 --> 00:26:13,951 It definitely puts this place 505 00:26:14,055 --> 00:26:16,264 in contention for highly likely 506 00:26:16,367 --> 00:26:17,852 that something happened here. 507 00:26:19,508 --> 00:26:21,338 So then it's like, "Well, 508 00:26:22,719 --> 00:26:25,100 there's probably a victim somewhere in the area." 509 00:26:26,446 --> 00:26:28,138 It's wild. 510 00:26:29,001 --> 00:26:31,279 [Bobby] I'd be really surprised if there weren't bodies 511 00:26:31,382 --> 00:26:32,832 at the bottom of that lake. 512 00:26:48,814 --> 00:26:50,539 [Josh] Fifty-two-year-old Donald Tobin 513 00:26:50,643 --> 00:26:53,646 was last seen on July 7th. 514 00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:57,408 Police suspect foul play in his disappearance. 515 00:26:57,995 --> 00:27:00,895 We have a Keyes sighting several miles away. 516 00:27:00,998 --> 00:27:03,207 And the details of the disappearance 517 00:27:03,311 --> 00:27:07,039 match everything we know about Keyes' MO. 518 00:27:09,317 --> 00:27:13,562 Every day, I comb through missing persons cases. 519 00:27:14,011 --> 00:27:17,256 And because of the nature of my work, 520 00:27:18,153 --> 00:27:21,018 I'm deeply aware of the gravity 521 00:27:21,122 --> 00:27:24,090 of not only are each of these human beings 522 00:27:24,194 --> 00:27:26,403 who are attached to many other human beings 523 00:27:27,438 --> 00:27:29,337 but there's so many of them. 524 00:27:30,441 --> 00:27:32,478 I keep coming back to the main objective 525 00:27:32,581 --> 00:27:33,928 which is there are families 526 00:27:34,031 --> 00:27:36,309 who don't know what happened to their loved one 527 00:27:36,724 --> 00:27:38,139 and no one else is looking. 528 00:27:43,523 --> 00:27:47,251 I had covered Suzie Lyall's case several years ago. 529 00:27:47,355 --> 00:27:50,047 Her name was found on Keyes' computer. 530 00:27:50,427 --> 00:27:53,913 There are a lot of significant circumstantial evidence 531 00:27:54,017 --> 00:27:56,122 to look at Keyes as being 532 00:27:56,226 --> 00:27:58,090 responsible for her disappearance. 533 00:28:02,370 --> 00:28:06,063 Suzanne Lyall was really intelligent, 534 00:28:06,167 --> 00:28:08,859 really bubbly teenage girl, 535 00:28:08,963 --> 00:28:11,379 who grew up in the greater Albany area. 536 00:28:13,070 --> 00:28:16,315 Suzie was a student at SUNY Albany. 537 00:28:17,178 --> 00:28:20,112 She was really into computers. 538 00:28:22,045 --> 00:28:23,460 She worked at Babbage's 539 00:28:23,563 --> 00:28:26,566 which was, at the time, electronic store, basically, 540 00:28:26,670 --> 00:28:29,259 like computer games and video games. 541 00:28:30,260 --> 00:28:32,814 And you have to remember this is 1998. 542 00:28:33,194 --> 00:28:35,092 She was playing online video games 543 00:28:35,196 --> 00:28:37,681 and really into the digital world 544 00:28:37,785 --> 00:28:39,476 before the rest of us were. 545 00:28:39,752 --> 00:28:42,065 And one night, 546 00:28:42,168 --> 00:28:44,688 Suzie was working at Babbage's. 547 00:28:44,792 --> 00:28:46,690 And after leaving Babbage's, 548 00:28:46,794 --> 00:28:48,416 she was never seen again. 549 00:28:51,246 --> 00:28:52,903 Right around the time she went missing, 550 00:28:53,007 --> 00:28:55,423 Keyes was living in Constable, New York. 551 00:28:56,769 --> 00:28:58,909 Suzie was about Keyes' age 552 00:28:59,013 --> 00:29:00,842 of 19 years old. 553 00:29:01,153 --> 00:29:03,811 She had a very robust online lifestyle. 554 00:29:03,914 --> 00:29:06,883 And that's something that comes up in the Keyes case. 555 00:29:07,262 --> 00:29:10,300 He said he was going down to Albany 556 00:29:10,403 --> 00:29:12,060 while he was living up in Constable, 557 00:29:12,164 --> 00:29:14,407 and going to computer labs and libraries, 558 00:29:14,511 --> 00:29:16,271 and using computers there. 559 00:29:16,375 --> 00:29:17,445 At a certain point, 560 00:29:17,548 --> 00:29:19,033 Suzie told a friend that she felt like 561 00:29:19,136 --> 00:29:20,482 a man had been following her. 562 00:29:20,586 --> 00:29:24,038 And is it possible that the man that Suzanne felt 563 00:29:24,141 --> 00:29:26,765 was following her was, in fact, Keyes? 564 00:29:27,731 --> 00:29:29,146 [GPS] Keep right to take exit three 565 00:29:29,250 --> 00:29:31,045 towards Albany International. 566 00:29:31,148 --> 00:29:32,080 [Josh] What's great about this trip is 567 00:29:32,184 --> 00:29:35,463 we're gonna meet Dr. Kunkle at the airport. 568 00:29:35,566 --> 00:29:38,915 How's it going? We're gonna figure that one out? 569 00:29:39,018 --> 00:29:42,850 Dr. Kunkle is a criminal psychologist, 570 00:29:42,953 --> 00:29:44,852 one of my favorite people. 571 00:29:45,162 --> 00:29:47,578 He's really immersed himself 572 00:29:47,682 --> 00:29:49,270 in all things Keyes. 573 00:29:50,409 --> 00:29:52,411 I got involved with the Lyall case 574 00:29:52,514 --> 00:29:56,001 as part of the St. Rose Cold Case Analysis Center. 575 00:29:56,277 --> 00:30:00,074 We were asked by Mary Lyall, Suzanne Lyall's mother, 576 00:30:00,384 --> 00:30:03,491 to get involved and look at the investigation. 577 00:30:05,182 --> 00:30:06,943 [Josh] If Suzie was a Keyes victim, 578 00:30:07,046 --> 00:30:09,014 it would've been earlier on 579 00:30:09,117 --> 00:30:10,981 in the commission of his crimes. 580 00:30:11,085 --> 00:30:12,914 So he wouldn't have been as sophisticated 581 00:30:13,018 --> 00:30:15,641 as far back as 1997 and 1998, 582 00:30:15,744 --> 00:30:17,160 when his crimes began. 583 00:30:18,161 --> 00:30:20,508 We believe, based on sightings, 584 00:30:20,611 --> 00:30:24,201 that Suzie either disappeared leaving her workplace 585 00:30:24,512 --> 00:30:26,341 or disappeared getting off the bus 586 00:30:26,445 --> 00:30:28,274 at SUNY's campus. 587 00:30:28,619 --> 00:30:30,380 It would be perfectly natural 588 00:30:30,483 --> 00:30:32,209 for someone who looked like Keyes 589 00:30:32,313 --> 00:30:34,177 to be on a college campus. 590 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,111 [Chris] Yeah, he would draw no attention here. 591 00:30:37,663 --> 00:30:40,459 All right, so this is, the bus stop's over here, 592 00:30:41,460 --> 00:30:42,910 over closer to her dorm. 593 00:30:44,566 --> 00:30:48,639 It was a Monday night and she's coming back from work. 594 00:30:48,743 --> 00:30:51,159 There's probably others coming from that direction, 595 00:30:51,539 --> 00:30:54,128 using the bus to get back to campus. 596 00:30:55,094 --> 00:30:58,235 - It probably wasn't desolate. - Yeah. 597 00:30:58,822 --> 00:31:01,135 [Josh] So, I guess, if she comes off the bus stop, 598 00:31:01,238 --> 00:31:04,034 this is one logical route to her dorm. 599 00:31:04,138 --> 00:31:05,794 It could've been an abduction site? 600 00:31:05,898 --> 00:31:07,210 [Chris] Right. Yeah. 601 00:31:07,313 --> 00:31:09,350 [Josh] If you're Keyes, you're looking for a place 602 00:31:09,453 --> 00:31:12,456 where you can lie in wait, and not really be seen. 603 00:31:12,871 --> 00:31:14,769 And there's not really a lot of that. 604 00:31:14,873 --> 00:31:16,460 Basically, as we've been standing here, 605 00:31:16,564 --> 00:31:19,084 everybody who got off the bus and came to this quad 606 00:31:19,187 --> 00:31:20,257 walked up this walkway 607 00:31:20,361 --> 00:31:21,845 or down there through the trees 608 00:31:21,949 --> 00:31:22,881 over there and into the quad. 609 00:31:22,984 --> 00:31:24,330 Yeah. 610 00:31:24,434 --> 00:31:25,987 [Chris] The only other point of access 611 00:31:26,091 --> 00:31:27,782 is right here in front of everyone. 612 00:31:27,886 --> 00:31:29,335 [Josh] Yeah. 613 00:31:29,439 --> 00:31:31,751 [Chris] Which doesn't make any sense at all. 614 00:31:32,131 --> 00:31:34,237 It's a very high-risk environment. 615 00:31:35,272 --> 00:31:37,965 There's no way to track whether she 616 00:31:38,068 --> 00:31:39,898 actually got on the bus. 617 00:31:40,519 --> 00:31:42,901 Back then, they were just showing their ID 618 00:31:43,004 --> 00:31:44,592 as a SUNY student and you just ride. 619 00:31:45,524 --> 00:31:47,388 [Josh] Now that we're here, we see 620 00:31:47,698 --> 00:31:48,872 how many people are around 621 00:31:48,976 --> 00:31:50,322 and what a short distance it is. 622 00:31:50,425 --> 00:31:52,565 - [Chris] Right. - It seems more likely 623 00:31:52,669 --> 00:31:54,982 that she went missing at Crossgates Mall 624 00:31:55,085 --> 00:31:56,535 rather than here. 625 00:32:07,270 --> 00:32:08,754 [Chris] We know she was at the mall. 626 00:32:08,857 --> 00:32:10,998 That's irrefutable. 627 00:32:11,377 --> 00:32:13,483 She worked that day, and her manager saw her leave 628 00:32:13,586 --> 00:32:15,588 and said he knows what exit she took. 629 00:32:17,521 --> 00:32:20,662 [Josh] During the same time that Suzanne Lyall disappeared, 630 00:32:20,766 --> 00:32:23,562 just miles from where she was last seen, 631 00:32:23,976 --> 00:32:26,737 a woman encountered a man in a Marshalls parking lot 632 00:32:26,841 --> 00:32:29,050 that she believed was Keyes. 633 00:32:30,362 --> 00:32:33,123 What stood out to us was the things he was asking her. 634 00:32:33,296 --> 00:32:34,676 "How old are you? 635 00:32:34,780 --> 00:32:36,816 If you left right now, would anyone notice?" 636 00:32:37,093 --> 00:32:40,510 Some blatantly disturbing questions. 637 00:32:40,613 --> 00:32:43,478 These come up over and over and over again 638 00:32:43,582 --> 00:32:46,240 in tips and places where Keyes was. 639 00:32:47,448 --> 00:32:49,519 We can place him in the Albany area 640 00:32:49,622 --> 00:32:52,763 that spring, looking to abduct someone 641 00:32:52,867 --> 00:32:54,869 from the mall parking lot. 642 00:32:55,283 --> 00:32:57,906 [Chris] Suzanne Lyall was working at the Crossgates Mall 643 00:32:58,217 --> 00:32:59,529 on the night of her disappearance. 644 00:33:00,875 --> 00:33:03,257 [Josh] More than likely, she disappeared at the mall, 645 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,742 walking from Babbage's to the bus stop. 646 00:33:10,229 --> 00:33:13,163 Right around the time Suzanne Lyall went missing, 647 00:33:13,267 --> 00:33:15,269 Keyes was looking on enlisting in the Army, 648 00:33:15,372 --> 00:33:17,064 and the Army recruitment office 649 00:33:17,167 --> 00:33:19,928 was two miles from where she was last seen. 650 00:33:20,377 --> 00:33:22,690 This is where Keyes enlisted in the Army. 651 00:33:24,036 --> 00:33:27,729 He, at that point, was really disagreeing with his parents. 652 00:33:27,833 --> 00:33:29,283 They were very anti-government, 653 00:33:29,386 --> 00:33:32,010 so it would make sense for someone rebelling, 654 00:33:32,113 --> 00:33:35,703 also someone who had a desire to hurt people, 655 00:33:35,806 --> 00:33:37,567 to join the Army. 656 00:33:37,670 --> 00:33:39,879 Joining the Army gives him the paycheck. 657 00:33:39,983 --> 00:33:41,122 Right. 658 00:33:41,226 --> 00:33:42,779 And license to kill. 659 00:33:43,297 --> 00:33:45,299 And now maybe he's like, "Okay, it's time. 660 00:33:45,402 --> 00:33:48,060 I can start committing crimes in this area 661 00:33:48,164 --> 00:33:50,476 'cause I'm gonna be leaving soon." 662 00:33:51,305 --> 00:33:55,619 He told the FBI that he planned his murders around travels 663 00:33:55,723 --> 00:33:57,932 because, after a girl was abducted, 664 00:33:58,036 --> 00:34:01,522 no one's gonna look at the guy who goes off to the Army 665 00:34:01,625 --> 00:34:06,078 or left at 4:00 in the morning to go on a vacation. 666 00:34:06,182 --> 00:34:08,736 He wanted to create as much distance, 667 00:34:08,839 --> 00:34:12,188 physically and psychologically, 668 00:34:12,533 --> 00:34:14,466 between himself and his crimes. 669 00:34:18,746 --> 00:34:22,198 So the Marshalls location to here is interesting. 670 00:34:22,301 --> 00:34:23,854 Basically, just right across the street. 671 00:34:23,958 --> 00:34:26,961 It doesn't seem like he was actually trying to abduct her. 672 00:34:27,065 --> 00:34:29,619 It almost seems like he was ramping up, 673 00:34:29,722 --> 00:34:32,415 he was testing to decide what he'll do next. 674 00:34:34,313 --> 00:34:36,350 But what killed me is walking out here 675 00:34:36,453 --> 00:34:38,766 and the first thing you see is a cemetery. 676 00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:40,112 [Chris] I know. 677 00:34:40,216 --> 00:34:42,425 [Josh] He told the FBI cemetery outbuildings 678 00:34:42,528 --> 00:34:43,943 were easy to gain access to 679 00:34:44,047 --> 00:34:47,568 and they were great places to rape and murder victims. 680 00:34:48,016 --> 00:34:49,880 And walkable through the woods 681 00:34:49,984 --> 00:34:51,606 to Six Mile Waterworks Park, 682 00:34:51,710 --> 00:34:54,471 where there's a reservoir and tons of outbuildings. 683 00:34:54,575 --> 00:34:55,852 [Chris] Yeah. 684 00:34:56,335 --> 00:34:58,096 When you bring up Six Mile Waterworks, 685 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:00,926 it's the only body of water 686 00:35:01,029 --> 00:35:04,102 within this three, four mile radius 687 00:35:04,205 --> 00:35:07,450 between the two malls, the campus, 688 00:35:08,002 --> 00:35:09,383 parking lot. 689 00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:13,283 [Josh] And Six Mile Waterworks Park 690 00:35:13,387 --> 00:35:15,872 is in the center of all four points, 691 00:35:15,975 --> 00:35:20,290 Colonie Center, Marshalls, SUNY, and Babbage's. 692 00:35:21,188 --> 00:35:25,088 You can walk through the park from any four of those points 693 00:35:25,192 --> 00:35:27,228 without really being seen. 694 00:35:28,505 --> 00:35:31,681 The fact that he could walk through that park unseen 695 00:35:31,784 --> 00:35:35,133 to all four destinations is fascinating. 696 00:35:36,893 --> 00:35:39,999 You had said they had searched it pretty extensively, right? 697 00:35:40,103 --> 00:35:41,277 [Chris] Well, they said they did, 698 00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:44,659 but I believe they didn't use dogs 699 00:35:44,763 --> 00:35:46,730 and they never checked the water. 700 00:35:46,834 --> 00:35:48,629 [Josh] And at this point, we know Keyes 701 00:35:48,732 --> 00:35:51,563 liked to submerge his victims' remains in water. 702 00:35:53,427 --> 00:35:55,256 If it was Keyes, 703 00:35:55,532 --> 00:35:57,534 Suzie's final resting place 704 00:35:57,638 --> 00:36:00,158 is possibly Waterworks Park. 705 00:36:02,781 --> 00:36:04,403 [Chris] The timing of her abduction 706 00:36:04,507 --> 00:36:06,923 and his being in the area, 707 00:36:07,026 --> 00:36:10,547 and then the other signature Keyes offense patterns, 708 00:36:11,479 --> 00:36:12,825 that it just makes sense. 709 00:36:16,864 --> 00:36:20,005 [Josh] There was a lot of compelling evidence there. 710 00:36:20,523 --> 00:36:23,802 But we can't say for sure if we've solved the case. 711 00:36:24,285 --> 00:36:26,667 I don't think in terms of justice 712 00:36:26,770 --> 00:36:28,393 or closure, 713 00:36:28,496 --> 00:36:31,119 'cause I don't think there can be justice or closure 714 00:36:31,223 --> 00:36:33,260 in family upheaval. 715 00:36:36,366 --> 00:36:39,438 I think about Suzie Lyall a lot in this regard. 716 00:36:40,267 --> 00:36:42,545 Imagine being known worldwide 717 00:36:42,648 --> 00:36:45,548 only for the worst thing to ever happen to you. 718 00:36:45,893 --> 00:36:47,757 And when people wanna talk about Suzie, 719 00:36:47,860 --> 00:36:49,586 that's what they wanna talk about. 720 00:36:52,002 --> 00:36:54,177 The first time I met Dr. Kunkle, 721 00:36:54,281 --> 00:36:56,938 I was invited to speak 722 00:36:57,042 --> 00:36:58,630 at an event in Saratoga Springs. 723 00:36:58,733 --> 00:37:01,149 Mary Lyall, Suzie's mother, was gonna be there 724 00:37:01,253 --> 00:37:02,910 and I got to meet her. 725 00:37:03,013 --> 00:37:04,774 And it was so humbling, 726 00:37:04,877 --> 00:37:06,154 to meet Suzie's mom 727 00:37:06,258 --> 00:37:07,811 and hear her talk about Suzie. 728 00:37:07,915 --> 00:37:09,399 It felt like I got to know who she was 729 00:37:09,503 --> 00:37:11,505 from the person who knew her the best. 730 00:37:12,816 --> 00:37:14,577 So in a sense, 731 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,372 if there is an obligation, 732 00:37:16,475 --> 00:37:19,271 it is to treat these people like more than 733 00:37:19,375 --> 00:37:21,860 just the worst thing that ever happened to them. 734 00:37:25,346 --> 00:37:28,556 Both Chris and I are committed to investigating 735 00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:32,284 until there are no stones left to turn over. 736 00:37:32,526 --> 00:37:33,492 - [Chris] All right, thanks, man. - All right. 737 00:37:33,596 --> 00:37:34,873 Yeah, take care, Chris. 738 00:37:35,183 --> 00:37:36,840 [Josh] Until then, I find myself 739 00:37:36,944 --> 00:37:38,601 obsessively driving the back roads 740 00:37:38,704 --> 00:37:41,189 of Berkshire County and Upstate New York, 741 00:37:41,293 --> 00:37:43,261 looking for something. 742 00:37:52,546 --> 00:37:55,169 In addition to the Suzanne Lyall case, 743 00:37:55,273 --> 00:37:58,137 there are others that I'm quite confident were Keyes', 744 00:37:58,241 --> 00:38:02,280 but I still would like a little more reassurances on. 745 00:38:02,383 --> 00:38:05,283 The first two are are Kami and Eugene. 746 00:38:06,836 --> 00:38:11,323 Kami was a high school student living in Oregon. 747 00:38:11,427 --> 00:38:12,842 She was 16. 748 00:38:12,945 --> 00:38:17,191 She had just met this boyfriend, Eugene. 749 00:38:17,502 --> 00:38:19,227 And they decided to go for a walk out 750 00:38:19,331 --> 00:38:21,160 on the Oregon coast. 751 00:38:21,264 --> 00:38:22,852 And no one ever saw them again. 752 00:38:26,718 --> 00:38:29,168 The police quickly leaned into the theory 753 00:38:29,272 --> 00:38:30,825 they had been swept out to sea. 754 00:38:32,137 --> 00:38:35,968 And, ultimately, the police stopped looking into it. 755 00:38:37,384 --> 00:38:39,627 Keyes had told the FBI that, 756 00:38:39,731 --> 00:38:41,698 following his discharge from the Army, 757 00:38:41,802 --> 00:38:44,874 he had abducted a male-female couple 758 00:38:44,977 --> 00:38:48,015 from either Washington State or one of its surrounding states. 759 00:38:50,569 --> 00:38:52,640 I've looked into it extensively. 760 00:38:52,744 --> 00:38:55,850 There's only one case that matches that description. 761 00:38:56,851 --> 00:38:58,888 And it's Kami and Eugene's case. 762 00:38:58,991 --> 00:39:02,754 Obviously, since the first episode, I... 763 00:39:02,857 --> 00:39:05,101 I've had family members reach out to me, 764 00:39:05,204 --> 00:39:06,344 which is great, 765 00:39:06,447 --> 00:39:08,173 because that is an honor and a privilege 766 00:39:08,276 --> 00:39:09,519 and quite humbling, 767 00:39:09,623 --> 00:39:12,453 to have those experiences and relationships, 768 00:39:12,557 --> 00:39:13,799 and get to know these people 769 00:39:13,903 --> 00:39:17,251 and know that they value the work I'm doing. 770 00:39:17,872 --> 00:39:22,325 I'm always anxious about covering someone's case 771 00:39:22,429 --> 00:39:23,637 because I don't know 772 00:39:23,740 --> 00:39:26,087 how the family's going to feel about it, 773 00:39:26,191 --> 00:39:29,781 and I was appreciative that you reached out to me. 774 00:39:30,851 --> 00:39:33,060 I don't know. You've done a really good job 775 00:39:33,716 --> 00:39:34,924 of bringing her to life 776 00:39:35,027 --> 00:39:37,444 and making sure she stays in the forefront 777 00:39:37,547 --> 00:39:38,721 of people's memories, 778 00:39:38,824 --> 00:39:41,724 and it's really wonderful. 779 00:39:42,172 --> 00:39:45,383 Thank you, yeah, she was a special person. 780 00:39:45,969 --> 00:39:47,350 She was. 781 00:39:47,833 --> 00:39:50,146 I've reached out to Lincoln County. 782 00:39:50,249 --> 00:39:51,527 I've not heard back, 783 00:39:51,630 --> 00:39:54,253 but I keep hoping the FBI will release 784 00:39:54,357 --> 00:39:56,428 more of the redacted files at some point, 785 00:39:56,532 --> 00:39:59,638 and I think that's the best thing we can wish for. 786 00:39:59,742 --> 00:40:02,330 And I cannot thank you enough. 787 00:40:02,434 --> 00:40:04,332 Seriously. 788 00:40:04,574 --> 00:40:06,956 I have done very little, 789 00:40:07,059 --> 00:40:09,130 so I did the bare minimum. 790 00:40:09,441 --> 00:40:15,102 No. No. Hands down, you've done so much. 791 00:40:17,415 --> 00:40:18,968 I'm just grateful 792 00:40:19,071 --> 00:40:20,901 that you want closure for the families, 793 00:40:21,004 --> 00:40:24,111 whether it's my family or other people's families. 794 00:40:26,872 --> 00:40:29,772 "We've also seen that while his memory for locations 795 00:40:29,875 --> 00:40:31,705 is startlingly accurate... 796 00:40:31,808 --> 00:40:34,121 It's the first time I've had a job 797 00:40:34,224 --> 00:40:37,918 that I believe in the work that I'm doing. 798 00:40:38,401 --> 00:40:40,092 I've even had law enforcement 799 00:40:40,196 --> 00:40:41,335 reach out to me and be like, 800 00:40:41,439 --> 00:40:42,992 "Hey, we have this missing persons case. 801 00:40:43,095 --> 00:40:44,165 Do you think it's Keyes?" 802 00:40:44,269 --> 00:40:47,997 The most infuriating thing about investigating Israel Keyes 803 00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:51,000 is, without a body or biometric evidence, 804 00:40:51,103 --> 00:40:53,589 it's nearly impossible to truly confirm 805 00:40:53,692 --> 00:40:56,592 he's responsible for any missing person. 806 00:40:58,766 --> 00:41:00,181 There are all these families 807 00:41:00,285 --> 00:41:01,873 who don't know what happened to their loved ones. 808 00:41:02,943 --> 00:41:05,290 At this point, I am invested 809 00:41:05,393 --> 00:41:07,154 and I care immensely. 810 00:41:09,018 --> 00:41:11,917 Maybe a small price to pay for that is like, 811 00:41:12,021 --> 00:41:13,747 "Yeah, a serial killer lives rent-free 812 00:41:13,850 --> 00:41:15,990 in the back of my brain for the rest of my life. 813 00:41:34,284 --> 00:41:37,253 When I started putting the podcast together 814 00:41:37,356 --> 00:41:40,394 and writing the first season, I was very compelled 815 00:41:40,498 --> 00:41:42,120 by that line, like, 816 00:41:42,223 --> 00:41:45,330 "I don't wanna be wrapped up in all this true crime bull..." 817 00:41:45,917 --> 00:41:48,782 It's what I ultimately named the podcast. 818 00:41:48,885 --> 00:41:51,163 I thought it was a nice... you to Keyes, 819 00:41:51,267 --> 00:41:54,373 to be like, "Hey, not only is the media covering your case 820 00:41:54,477 --> 00:41:56,790 but we're using your words to do it." 821 00:42:00,069 --> 00:42:02,278 More and more people are learning about Keyes. 822 00:42:02,381 --> 00:42:05,661 And we're getting more and more information because of that, 823 00:42:06,178 --> 00:42:08,249 which could help us identify victims 824 00:42:08,353 --> 00:42:11,183 which will help bring some resolve to families 825 00:42:11,287 --> 00:42:13,807 who for now, over a decade, 826 00:42:14,083 --> 00:42:15,809 don't know what happened to their loved ones. 827 00:42:24,507 --> 00:42:30,548 [music]