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Growing up on Staten Island, Barbara and
I had often heard the legend of Cropsey.

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For the kids in our

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neighborhood, Cropsey was the

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escaped mental patient who lived

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in the tunnels beneath the old,

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abandoned Willowbrook mental

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institution...

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Who would come out late at night

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and snatch children off the

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streets.

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Although we didn't know each other as children,
Barbara and I had both shared versions of the

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Cropsey legend as it filtered

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through our separate

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neighborhoods and seeped into

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our collective fears.

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Sometimes Cropsey had a hook for

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a hand.

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Other times he wielded a bloody

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ax.

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But it didn't matter.

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Cropsey was out there, lurking

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in the shadows, waiting to get

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us.

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We're... we're gonna get her

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back.

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Okay.

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Later, as teenagers, we

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assumed Cropsey was just an

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urban legend, a cautionary tale

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used to keep us out of those

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buildings... to stop us from

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doing all those things that

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teenagers like to do.

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But all that changed the summer

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little Jennifer disappeared.

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That was the summer all the kids

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from Staten Island discovered

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that their urban legend...

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Was real.

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Staten Island is one of the five boroughs of New
York City. For the past century, the Island

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was mostly just farmland and

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woods...

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That was, until they built the

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Verrazano bridge in '64.

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Now it's home to nearly half a

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million people.

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Before the Verrazano bridge

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was built, that's all it was.

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It was just this Island, this

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forgotten Island.

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All the children of Brooklyn,

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you know, wanted their own home,

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and everybody wants land.

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You have a dog, you let him out

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the backyard, just like, you

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know, "father knows best."

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It can be pretty quiet.

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I mean, even though Manhattan

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is, like, right across the

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water, it's definitely a

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different life out here.

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If you travel around sometimes,

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people would say, "oh, right,

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that's where the largest garbage

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dump was.

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And, you know, rumor has it you

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could see it from outer space."

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So one big garbage dump.

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It was the least-populated,

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most heavily wooded borough.

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From what I understand, like,

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this is a big dumping ground for

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mob bodies.

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Someone needs to be disposed of,

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it's like, "let's bring them to

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Staten Island."

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It's like there's almost too

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many spaces to go to be

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isolated and alone and do

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whatever you want.

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So if you have a bad idea in

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your head, you can do it there.

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Across the middle of the

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Island lies a section of ancient

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forest known as the greenbelt.

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Bordering this forest is a

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boy scout camp and an old

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tuberculosis ward.

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As kids, we used to roam around

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these grounds, trying to scare

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each other with stories about

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Cropsey.

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Is that pouch camp over

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to the left?

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No, that's JCC camp over to

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the left.

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And right here... this is

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sea view, the T.B. Wards.

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Our camp counselors would lead

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us down this path, and they'd

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come out of the buildings and

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scare us.

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You know, this is where we

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thought that Cropsey lived... in

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the basements down in here and

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in these other buildings.

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And, you know, we used to walk

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through here, and you'd find

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beds and papers of people who

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had died here.

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So, you know, it kind of made

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sense to us.

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"Cropsey," for some reason,

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became the generic term for a

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maniac in boy scout camps up and

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down the Hudson river region of

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New York state.

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So it would've made perfect sense for a story
about a maniac who was hiding out in the

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woods and who abducted and

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killed little children to be

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called Cropsey.

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First learned about Cropsey

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in summer camp.

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He was a doctor.

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He was supposed to have a

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hook.

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With a knife about this big.

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And he was an ax-wielding

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madman.

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The wife was killed.

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He was being chased or

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taunted.

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He wanted kids.

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And he would find them and...

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He would hack you up.

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...chop 'em up.

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"Don't go behind the Sherwood

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bunks.

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Cropsey's out there."

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"Make sure you get off at the

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mall.

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Don't continue to go any

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further."

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"don't go down by the lake at

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night.

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Cropsey's down there."

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"No, don't go near

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willowbrook park.

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Willowbrook park is dangerous."

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There are many communities

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that have a subterranean

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history, a house where

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unspeakable things are said to

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have happened, an institution

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where people were...

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Segregated from the rest of

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society.

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We got pictures of sea view.

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These are like overall,

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bird's-eye view of, you know,

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the hospital.

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This included the tuberculosis

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wards.

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This included tuberculosis

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wards?

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Yes.

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And also on this property here

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were a hospital for contagious

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diseases, and then it got the

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morgue and the cemetery.

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Well, this was across the street

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in the farm colony, which was

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like a different part of the

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hospital.

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They called it the "poor farm."

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Okay, here we have the

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Halloran hospital in

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willowbrook.

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Right. It was Halloran, and

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then it became the

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willowbrook state school.

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Exactly.

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Willowbrook was strictly for

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the mentally ill?

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Back in 1972, the

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willowbrook state school was the

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subject of a famous exposé by a

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young reporter looking for his

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big break.

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I first heard of this big

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place with the pretty-sounding

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name because of a call I

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received from a member of the

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willowbrook staff, a

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Dr. Michael Wilkins.

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The doctor invited me to see

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the conditions he was talking

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about, so unannounced and

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unexpected by the school

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administration, we toured

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building number six.

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The doctor had warned me that it

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would be bad.

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It was horrible.

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There was one attendant for

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perhaps 50 severely and

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profoundly retarded children.

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Lying on the floor naked and

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smeared with their own feces,

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they were making a pitiful

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sound, a kind of mournful wail

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that it's impossible for me to

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forget.

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This is what it looked like. This is what it
sounded like. But how can I tell you about the

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way it smelled?

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It smelled of filth, it smelled

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of disease, and it smelled of

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death.

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Despite Geraldo's report, it still took
more than 10 years before authorities began

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shutting down willowbrook.

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Many patients were transferred

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to group homes, but others were

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left to fend for themselves.

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There are those who believe that

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some patients, out of confusion

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and habit, returned to the 365

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acres of willowbrook to roam the

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abandoned buildings and live in

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the tunnel system that lay

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underneath.

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Out of this, our own version of

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the Cropsey legend was born.

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At what point, though, in

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your life did you start to

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realize, "hey, maybe Cropsey is

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real?"

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When kids started

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disappearing from Staten Island.

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You're watching channel 7,

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eyewitness news.

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Hi, guys. Listen.

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We need all the help we can to

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help find Jennifer.

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The relentless search for a

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12-year-old girl with down

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syndrome continues today as it

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has for the last three weeks,

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with the hope that this will be

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the day they find

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Jennifer Schweiger.

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She's very friendly, very

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happy.

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She's a doll.

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Very loving.

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You know, that's a down syndrome

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child's nature.

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Instead of lying in the sun

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today, I figured I'd come out

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and just help.

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Could be one of our own

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children, you know, that was

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kidnapped or, you know, molested

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anyways.

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Maybe it's Jennifer's added

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vulnerability of having down

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syndrome or possibly the

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close-knit feelings of

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Staten Islanders at having one

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of their children missing, but

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every day, more and more

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volunteers turn out, searching

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through the woods and hitting

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the streets, hoping to put an

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end to the Schweiger family

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ordeal.

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So many people turned out for

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this search.

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Everybody felt that...

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This was one of their own that

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had disappeared.

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They would show up at the firehouse with
flashlights, ready to go into willowbrook,

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willing to go into the forest,

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00:10:56,941 --> 00:10:59,008
into the tunnels underneath.

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There was one family in particular, Donna
Cutugno, and some of her friends and

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neighbors who had stepped

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00:11:05,850 --> 00:11:08,017
forward to organize searches.

287
00:11:08,019 --> 00:11:09,485
Today, we're concentrating on

288
00:11:10,355 --> 00:11:11,521
the police went in there

289
00:11:11,523 --> 00:11:12,689
yesterday, and we're just

290
00:11:12,691 --> 00:11:14,156
continuing where the police left

291
00:11:14,158 --> 00:11:14,524
off.

292
00:11:14,526 --> 00:11:15,958
This is what willowbrook looked

293
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:17,193
like when we were in here.

294
00:11:17,195 --> 00:11:18,661
I'll never forget the first time

295
00:11:18,663 --> 00:11:19,795
I went into one of these

296
00:11:19,797 --> 00:11:20,996
buildings.

297
00:11:21,332 --> 00:11:22,832
It was really blood-curdling,

298
00:11:22,966 --> 00:11:24,567
because here was the first time

299
00:11:24,702 --> 00:11:25,935
I was actually in these

300
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:27,704
buildings I heard these horrible

301
00:11:27,838 --> 00:11:28,971
stories about.

302
00:11:29,306 --> 00:11:33,876
And as you walk through, completely empty.
You still hear, you feel it.

303
00:11:33,878 --> 00:11:35,545
You could almost feel the

304
00:11:35,547 --> 00:11:37,380
children's presence there or

305
00:11:37,382 --> 00:11:39,682
the adults' presence there.

306
00:11:39,684 --> 00:11:43,119
And it's something you never get

307
00:11:43,121 --> 00:11:43,753
used to.

308
00:11:43,755 --> 00:11:45,488
When you're looking, make sure

309
00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:47,123
you look down on the ground.

310
00:11:47,125 --> 00:11:48,391
Look up in the trees.

311
00:11:48,393 --> 00:11:50,092
Anything you find, the police

312
00:11:50,094 --> 00:11:51,694
can get a lot of information

313
00:11:51,696 --> 00:11:52,362
from it.

314
00:11:52,364 --> 00:11:54,130
In our searching, what we found

315
00:11:54,132 --> 00:11:56,098
was a number of people that

316
00:11:56,100 --> 00:11:57,867
actually lived here when

317
00:11:57,869 --> 00:12:00,035
willowbrook was up and running

318
00:12:00,037 --> 00:12:02,171
and in full swing tend to come

319
00:12:02,173 --> 00:12:03,105
back here.

320
00:12:03,107 --> 00:12:05,308
So there was a whole...

321
00:12:05,310 --> 00:12:06,976
Underground of people that still

322
00:12:06,978 --> 00:12:08,611
lived here, even though all the

323
00:12:08,613 --> 00:12:10,012
buildings were closed, and

324
00:12:10,014 --> 00:12:11,381
Andre Rand was definitely

325
00:12:11,383 --> 00:12:13,015
one of them.

326
00:12:13,350 --> 00:12:14,550
Andre Rand worked as an

327
00:12:14,685 --> 00:12:15,385
orderly at the

328
00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:16,852
willowbrook state school from

329
00:12:16,987 --> 00:12:19,889
1966 to 1968.

330
00:12:20,023 --> 00:12:21,557
For years he lived in numerous

331
00:12:21,692 --> 00:12:23,326
makeshift campsites in the woods

332
00:12:23,460 --> 00:12:25,495
surrounding willowbrook.

333
00:12:25,629 --> 00:12:27,463
He was also the lead suspect in

334
00:12:27,598 --> 00:12:29,299
the Jennifer Schweiger case.

335
00:12:29,433 --> 00:12:31,267
There was two witnesses that

336
00:12:31,402 --> 00:12:33,303
stated that they saw her walking

337
00:12:33,437 --> 00:12:36,506
along the street with a

338
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,007
middle-aged gentleman, and he

339
00:12:38,141 --> 00:12:39,609
had a female green bike with a

340
00:12:39,743 --> 00:12:41,243
basket on the front of it.

341
00:12:41,578 --> 00:12:47,450
The week before, I was in Shoprite, and I
saw Rand. I recognized him from a prior

342
00:12:47,452 --> 00:12:48,083
case.

343
00:12:48,085 --> 00:12:51,187
He purchased baby food, and he

344
00:12:51,189 --> 00:12:52,988
got on a green female bike with

345
00:12:52,990 --> 00:12:54,324
a basket on the front.

346
00:12:54,326 --> 00:12:55,891
At that point, bam, I said,

347
00:12:55,893 --> 00:12:56,726
"it's Andre.

348
00:12:56,728 --> 00:12:58,994
I saw him last week."

349
00:12:58,996 --> 00:13:00,630
Rand was immediately brought

350
00:13:00,632 --> 00:13:02,264
in and questioned in the girl's

351
00:13:02,266 --> 00:13:03,899
disappearance but released for

352
00:13:03,901 --> 00:13:04,901
lack of evidence.

353
00:13:04,902 --> 00:13:06,602
After four weeks of surveillance

354
00:13:06,604 --> 00:13:08,103
in hopes of finding Jennifer

355
00:13:08,105 --> 00:13:11,073
alive, he was arrested.

356
00:13:11,408 --> 00:13:12,975
Rand had been familiar to police

357
00:13:13,109 --> 00:13:14,644
after pleading guilty to sexual

358
00:13:14,778 --> 00:13:16,145
misconduct with a 9-year-old

359
00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:19,148
girl back in 1969... a crime

360
00:13:19,282 --> 00:13:21,617
which he denied.

361
00:13:21,752 --> 00:13:22,752
Good afternoon.

362
00:13:22,786 --> 00:13:23,953
Here's what's happening.

363
00:13:24,087 --> 00:13:25,355
A homeless man, 43-year-old

364
00:13:25,489 --> 00:13:26,856
Andre Rand, is under arrest.

365
00:13:26,990 --> 00:13:28,057
He is charged with the

366
00:13:28,191 --> 00:13:29,392
kidnapping of 12-year-old

367
00:13:30,427 --> 00:13:31,627
the suspect was picked up last

368
00:13:31,762 --> 00:13:32,495
night here at the

369
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:33,629
church of the god within.

370
00:13:33,764 --> 00:13:34,897
Police had questioned him as

371
00:13:35,031 --> 00:13:36,311
early as the second day into the

372
00:13:36,433 --> 00:13:37,600
investigation, and after four

373
00:13:37,735 --> 00:13:39,015
weeks of a making a case against

374
00:13:39,135 --> 00:13:40,302
the man, they finally decided

375
00:13:40,437 --> 00:13:41,437
they had enough to get a

376
00:13:41,538 --> 00:13:42,605
conviction.

377
00:13:42,939 --> 00:13:46,709
I've never seen a perp walk like that.
Watching him coming out looking

378
00:13:46,711 --> 00:13:49,245
like he had lost his mind

379
00:13:49,247 --> 00:13:52,114
further angered people in the

380
00:13:52,116 --> 00:13:53,148
community.

381
00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:55,251
That image forced a lot of

382
00:13:55,253 --> 00:13:57,420
people to say, "that is the

383
00:13:57,422 --> 00:13:58,220
killer.

384
00:13:58,222 --> 00:14:00,055
That man is not right.

385
00:14:00,057 --> 00:14:02,392
Look at him there, drooling."

386
00:14:02,394 --> 00:14:04,694
And it certainly caused me to

387
00:14:04,696 --> 00:14:06,295
ask a lot of questions.

388
00:14:06,297 --> 00:14:07,597
Who is Andre Rand?

389
00:14:07,599 --> 00:14:09,465
Did they get a crazy man and

390
00:14:09,467 --> 00:14:11,367
just say he's the guy, or did

391
00:14:11,369 --> 00:14:13,369
they really have good evidence

392
00:14:13,371 --> 00:14:15,405
against him that would stick in

393
00:14:15,407 --> 00:14:16,439
a court?

394
00:14:16,774 --> 00:14:17,973
I used to teach the

395
00:14:18,108 --> 00:14:19,275
Andre Rand story in my

396
00:14:19,410 --> 00:14:20,410
journalism class.

397
00:14:20,511 --> 00:14:21,977
Coming down the steps of the

398
00:14:22,112 --> 00:14:23,546
courthouse with a headline,

399
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,114
"drifter arrested."

400
00:14:25,449 --> 00:14:29,485
Well, what does that mean? It means guilty,
right? Whether he is or not, I don't

401
00:14:29,487 --> 00:14:30,986
know the whole story either.

402
00:14:30,988 --> 00:14:32,555
But it's a lot easier to do it

403
00:14:32,557 --> 00:14:34,189
that way than to say, "you know

404
00:14:34,191 --> 00:14:34,624
what?

405
00:14:34,626 --> 00:14:36,125
It might be somebody on your

406
00:14:36,127 --> 00:14:37,127
block."

407
00:14:37,429 --> 00:14:38,994
"It might be somebody you work

408
00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:40,596
with."

409
00:14:40,598 --> 00:14:41,964
Did you ever think that

410
00:14:41,966 --> 00:14:43,365
anybody else was involved?

411
00:14:43,367 --> 00:14:44,934
Well, we always had to think

412
00:14:44,936 --> 00:14:46,602
there was somebody else until we

413
00:14:46,604 --> 00:14:47,837
could just rule it out.

414
00:14:47,839 --> 00:14:49,038
You know, you always have to

415
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,239
keep that in the back of your

416
00:14:50,241 --> 00:14:50,606
mind.

417
00:14:50,608 --> 00:14:52,374
And plus, by going by our

418
00:14:52,376 --> 00:14:54,276
witnesses, if you consider our

419
00:14:54,278 --> 00:14:56,211
witnesses credible, it was only

420
00:14:56,213 --> 00:14:57,513
Andre and Jennifer.

421
00:14:57,515 --> 00:15:00,483
There was no other person.

422
00:15:00,485 --> 00:15:02,318
Of course, when we had him

423
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,320
for the 26 hours, where was she?

424
00:15:04,322 --> 00:15:06,188
Did he leave her with somebody

425
00:15:06,190 --> 00:15:07,690
else?

426
00:15:07,692 --> 00:15:09,258
With Rand's arrest, the

427
00:15:09,260 --> 00:15:10,827
search for Jennifer turned

428
00:15:10,829 --> 00:15:11,594
desperate.

429
00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:13,162
Rumors were spreading that

430
00:15:13,164 --> 00:15:14,730
someone, maybe even one of

431
00:15:14,732 --> 00:15:16,298
Rand's friends, was hiding

432
00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:18,100
Jennifer and moving her late at

433
00:15:18,102 --> 00:15:19,635
night through the tunnels

434
00:15:19,637 --> 00:15:21,036
underneath willowbrook.

435
00:15:21,038 --> 00:15:22,404
I want my daughter.

436
00:15:22,406 --> 00:15:24,106
I want the man to talk.

437
00:15:25,208 --> 00:15:27,009
I want him just to tell us where

438
00:15:27,143 --> 00:15:28,811
Jennifer is.

439
00:15:29,145 --> 00:15:33,816
Despite constant threats by state officials
to stay away from willowbrook, Donna and the

440
00:15:33,818 --> 00:15:35,417
friends of Jennifer kept going

441
00:15:37,088 --> 00:15:39,121
this area had been covered

442
00:15:39,123 --> 00:15:40,690
thousands of times by

443
00:15:40,692 --> 00:15:42,859
volunteers, by police, by dogs.

444
00:15:42,861 --> 00:15:45,060
But in that time, one gentleman

445
00:15:45,062 --> 00:15:46,963
came across an area that he

446
00:15:46,965 --> 00:15:48,965
noticed had Clay balls up on

447
00:15:48,967 --> 00:15:50,700
top, like someone patted down.

448
00:15:50,702 --> 00:15:52,502
And then this was all, you know,

449
00:15:52,504 --> 00:15:54,336
pushed back over with the trees.

450
00:15:54,338 --> 00:15:56,038
It was just a little spot that

451
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,573
he noticed the Clay balls.

452
00:15:57,575 --> 00:15:59,375
And that's what made us go back,

453
00:15:59,377 --> 00:16:01,076
or made him insist that we go

454
00:16:01,546 --> 00:16:02,979
and George showed us the

455
00:16:02,981 --> 00:16:07,449
location that he thought...

456
00:16:07,451 --> 00:16:12,889
Needed to be looked at.

457
00:16:12,891 --> 00:16:14,289
The smell... as soon as you

458
00:16:14,291 --> 00:16:17,359
start digging...

459
00:16:17,361 --> 00:16:21,463
We saw her toes.

460
00:16:21,465 --> 00:16:25,501
And everybody stopped.

461
00:16:25,503 --> 00:16:26,903
Father Henry gave her last

462
00:16:26,905 --> 00:16:28,771
rites.

463
00:16:37,881 --> 00:16:39,949
And they took us out of the
woods.

464
00:16:40,283 --> 00:16:41,517
Ernie, a grisly discovery

465
00:16:41,652 --> 00:16:43,019
back here tonight, back here in

466
00:16:43,153 --> 00:16:44,153
the 384 acres of the

467
00:16:44,187 --> 00:16:45,621
Staten Island developmental

468
00:16:45,756 --> 00:16:46,796
center... an arm and a leg

469
00:16:46,806 --> 00:16:48,006
sticking out from a shallow

470
00:16:48,141 --> 00:16:48,474
grave.

471
00:16:48,608 --> 00:16:49,908
They are eerie shadows, police

472
00:16:50,043 --> 00:16:51,310
and others at the scene where

473
00:16:51,444 --> 00:16:52,478
the body of 12-year-old

474
00:16:52,612 --> 00:16:53,979
Jennifer Lynn Schweiger tonight

475
00:16:54,113 --> 00:16:55,113
was found.

476
00:16:55,348 --> 00:16:58,617
Police were preventing anyone from
getting this close to the scene.

477
00:16:58,619 --> 00:17:00,118
Even Jennifer's father is kept

478
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:00,553
away.

479
00:17:00,555 --> 00:17:01,953
Yeah, Jennifer's father's

480
00:17:01,955 --> 00:17:02,388
here.

481
00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:03,922
He says you gave him permission

482
00:17:03,924 --> 00:17:04,790
to come through?

483
00:17:04,792 --> 00:17:06,124
Unless they can walk on

484
00:17:06,126 --> 00:17:09,295
water, they stay outside.

485
00:17:09,297 --> 00:17:10,563
There are two other girls

486
00:17:10,565 --> 00:17:11,797
who, over the last couple of

487
00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:13,098
years, have turned up missing

488
00:17:13,100 --> 00:17:14,132
here on Staten Island.

489
00:17:14,134 --> 00:17:15,534
They will be searching this area

490
00:17:15,536 --> 00:17:16,935
in the next few days to see what

491
00:17:16,937 --> 00:17:17,670
they can find.

492
00:17:17,672 --> 00:17:18,937
As one police officer told us

493
00:17:18,939 --> 00:17:20,239
tonight, god knows what they

494
00:17:20,241 --> 00:17:21,473
can find here.

495
00:17:21,475 --> 00:17:23,642
The discovery of Jennifer's

496
00:17:23,644 --> 00:17:25,844
body only 150 yards from Rand's

497
00:17:25,846 --> 00:17:27,946
campsite confirmed everyone's

498
00:17:27,948 --> 00:17:29,248
worst nightmare.

499
00:17:29,250 --> 00:17:31,283
Residents were outraged, and

500
00:17:31,285 --> 00:17:32,818
they wanted justice.

501
00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:35,020
The district attorney, however,

502
00:17:35,022 --> 00:17:37,189
had no physical evidence tying

503
00:17:37,191 --> 00:17:38,724
Rand with Jennifer's

504
00:17:38,726 --> 00:17:39,891
disappearance.

505
00:17:39,893 --> 00:17:41,860
The case was relying almost

506
00:17:41,862 --> 00:17:43,529
entirely on eyewitness

507
00:17:43,531 --> 00:17:45,631
testimony, which most experts

508
00:17:45,633 --> 00:17:49,535
agree is often unreliable.

509
00:17:49,537 --> 00:17:51,670
After the largest criminal trial

510
00:17:51,672 --> 00:17:53,672
in Staten Island history, Rand

511
00:17:53,674 --> 00:17:58,711
was convicted of kidnapping.

512
00:17:58,713 --> 00:17:59,911
But the murder charge was

513
00:17:59,913 --> 00:18:01,380
dismissed after jurors couldn't

514
00:18:01,382 --> 00:18:04,816
reach a verdict.

515
00:18:04,818 --> 00:18:06,985
Rand was sentenced 25 years to

516
00:18:06,987 --> 00:18:09,154
life and would be eligible for

517
00:18:09,156 --> 00:18:11,022
parole in 2008.

518
00:18:19,198 --> 00:18:23,835
Staten Islanders like to find easy
scapegoats, but not the real ones.

519
00:18:23,837 --> 00:18:25,804
And we don't want to think too

520
00:18:25,806 --> 00:18:27,906
deeply about what this means for

521
00:18:27,908 --> 00:18:28,840
our society.

522
00:18:28,842 --> 00:18:30,776
When you look at a place like

523
00:18:30,778 --> 00:18:32,778
Staten Island, it was viewed as

524
00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:34,747
a dumping ground for all kinds

525
00:18:34,749 --> 00:18:35,614
of things.

526
00:18:35,616 --> 00:18:37,616
The fresh kills landfill, which

527
00:18:37,618 --> 00:18:39,485
took all the city's garbage,

528
00:18:39,487 --> 00:18:41,287
8 million people's garbage,

529
00:18:41,289 --> 00:18:43,088
dumped in Staten Island.

530
00:18:43,090 --> 00:18:45,090
The farm colony was a place

531
00:18:45,092 --> 00:18:46,958
where people went who had

532
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,059
tuberculosis.

533
00:18:48,061 --> 00:18:50,396
Willowbrook warehoused thousands

534
00:18:50,398 --> 00:18:52,564
of people and left them there.

535
00:18:52,566 --> 00:18:54,366
It was a dumping ground.

536
00:18:54,368 --> 00:18:55,367
Why would you dump them in

537
00:18:55,369 --> 00:18:56,001
Staten Island?

538
00:18:56,003 --> 00:18:57,068
'Cause that's where you dump

539
00:18:57,070 --> 00:18:57,469
things.

540
00:18:57,471 --> 00:18:58,170
So you dump kids.

541
00:18:58,172 --> 00:18:59,070
What's the difference?

542
00:18:59,072 --> 00:19:00,205
You're dumping garbage, you're

543
00:19:00,207 --> 00:19:01,340
dumping kids to Staten Island.

544
00:19:01,342 --> 00:19:02,408
Doesn't make any difference,

545
00:19:02,410 --> 00:19:04,976
right?

546
00:19:04,978 --> 00:19:11,249
Look.

547
00:19:11,251 --> 00:19:15,120
Trays from the institution.

548
00:19:15,122 --> 00:19:16,988
They're everywhere.

549
00:19:26,966 --> 00:19:30,502
It's more about the undercurrent

550
00:19:30,637 --> 00:19:34,172
that cannot be tamed by building

551
00:19:34,307 --> 00:19:36,542
or organization.

552
00:19:36,876 --> 00:19:41,613
You put a bunch of people that are mentally
ill, and you put a bunch of people that are

553
00:19:41,615 --> 00:19:43,215
physically ill, and you bury

554
00:19:43,217 --> 00:19:44,916
people here and there, and you

555
00:19:44,918 --> 00:19:46,719
dump garbage, and you poison the

556
00:19:46,721 --> 00:19:48,387
environment.

557
00:19:48,389 --> 00:19:49,921
And then you sit around, and you

558
00:19:49,923 --> 00:19:51,189
scratch your head, and you

559
00:19:51,191 --> 00:19:52,558
wonder, "gee, why are things

560
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:53,291
going wrong?"

561
00:19:53,293 --> 00:19:54,727
Or, "why is there a chill cast

562
00:19:54,729 --> 00:19:56,127
over this Staten Island, this

563
00:19:56,129 --> 00:19:57,028
wonderful place?"

564
00:19:57,030 --> 00:19:58,230
Because it's about those

565
00:19:58,232 --> 00:19:59,765
undercurrents, those things that

566
00:19:59,767 --> 00:20:01,834
had come before.

567
00:20:01,836 --> 00:20:03,301
As children, we were deluded

568
00:20:03,303 --> 00:20:04,603
by our parents' belief that

569
00:20:04,605 --> 00:20:06,004
Staten Island was such a safe

570
00:20:06,006 --> 00:20:08,240
place to grow up.

571
00:20:08,242 --> 00:20:09,742
But in reality, every community

572
00:20:09,744 --> 00:20:12,110
has a seedy underside.

573
00:20:12,112 --> 00:20:15,280
Every suburbia has its secrets.

574
00:20:15,282 --> 00:20:16,448
We only discovered our own

575
00:20:16,450 --> 00:20:17,716
because of what happened with

576
00:20:17,718 --> 00:20:19,885
Jennifer...

577
00:20:19,887 --> 00:20:21,152
And then with all the other

578
00:20:21,154 --> 00:20:27,192
children.

579
00:20:27,194 --> 00:20:28,894
After Donna Cutugno and her team

580
00:20:28,896 --> 00:20:29,896
found the body of

581
00:20:29,897 --> 00:20:31,497
Jennifer Schweiger, the police

582
00:20:31,499 --> 00:20:32,998
started connecting the dots.

583
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:34,500
They looked at other missing

584
00:20:34,502 --> 00:20:36,001
children from Staten Island.

585
00:20:36,003 --> 00:20:37,603
Eventually, they focused in on

586
00:20:37,605 --> 00:20:39,170
four different cases spanning

587
00:20:39,172 --> 00:20:41,573
over 15 years...

588
00:20:41,575 --> 00:20:43,308
Tiahease Jackson, a 10-year-old

589
00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:45,010
girl with learning disabilities

590
00:20:45,012 --> 00:20:46,512
who disappeared four years

591
00:20:46,514 --> 00:20:48,680
before Jennifer.

592
00:20:48,682 --> 00:20:50,482
Hank Gafforio, 21 but with the

593
00:20:50,484 --> 00:20:51,850
I.Q. Of a 15-year-old,

594
00:20:51,852 --> 00:20:53,652
disappeared three years before

595
00:20:53,654 --> 00:20:55,854
Jennifer.

596
00:20:55,856 --> 00:20:57,656
7-year-old Holly Ann Hughes, who

597
00:20:57,658 --> 00:20:59,324
went missing six years before

598
00:21:00,494 --> 00:21:03,028
and finally Alice Pereira, last

599
00:21:03,030 --> 00:21:05,196
seen 1972, 15 years before

600
00:21:06,199 --> 00:21:08,366
to this day, none of their

601
00:21:08,368 --> 00:21:12,137
bodies have ever been found.

602
00:21:12,139 --> 00:21:14,406
They are missing-person cases

603
00:21:14,408 --> 00:21:16,007
that have occurred on

604
00:21:16,009 --> 00:21:18,276
Staten Island that have not been

605
00:21:18,278 --> 00:21:20,612
resolved.

606
00:21:20,614 --> 00:21:21,747
As kids, we never thought

607
00:21:21,749 --> 00:21:23,029
we'd learn the real story behind

608
00:21:25,152 --> 00:21:26,652
instead, Rand was sent to

609
00:21:26,654 --> 00:21:28,286
prison, and the stories just

610
00:21:28,288 --> 00:21:31,156
faded away.

611
00:21:31,158 --> 00:21:32,858
But now, 20 years later, we may

612
00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:34,460
get the chance to uncover the

613
00:21:34,462 --> 00:21:37,996
truth behind our urban legend.

614
00:21:37,998 --> 00:21:40,332
Because Andre Rand...

615
00:21:40,334 --> 00:21:43,469
Is back.

616
00:21:43,803 --> 00:21:44,937
Andre Rand scared a

617
00:21:45,071 --> 00:21:46,371
generation of parents and

618
00:21:46,506 --> 00:21:48,006
children on Staten Island.

619
00:21:48,140 --> 00:21:49,508
Convicted in the disappearance

620
00:21:49,643 --> 00:21:51,243
of one child in the 1980s, he is

621
00:21:51,377 --> 00:21:52,577
once again on trial for

622
00:21:52,712 --> 00:21:53,779
kidnapping.

623
00:21:54,114 --> 00:21:58,917
After spending 17 years in prison, Andre Rand
has returned to Staten Island to stand trial

624
00:21:58,919 --> 00:22:00,152
for the kidnapping of

625
00:22:02,422 --> 00:22:04,389
disappeared two decades earlier.

626
00:22:04,391 --> 00:22:06,258
Her body has never been found.

627
00:22:06,260 --> 00:22:08,127
Can you tell us if you ever

628
00:22:08,129 --> 00:22:09,494
met Holly Ann Hughes?

629
00:22:09,496 --> 00:22:11,797
Any comment whatsoever, please.

630
00:22:12,132 --> 00:22:13,465
I love my sister very much.

631
00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:14,599
It's been 20 years.

632
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:15,834
Something

633
00:22:15,969 --> 00:22:17,036
I've had to carry for an

634
00:22:17,170 --> 00:22:18,170
incredibly long time.

635
00:22:18,271 --> 00:22:19,304
And I miss her so much.

636
00:22:19,438 --> 00:22:20,839
You know, it's, like, nice to

637
00:22:20,974 --> 00:22:22,174
see that finally she's being

638
00:22:22,308 --> 00:22:23,676
treated like she's a person and

639
00:22:23,810 --> 00:22:25,010
not like a lost wallet, you

640
00:22:25,145 --> 00:22:25,410
know?

641
00:22:25,545 --> 00:22:26,945
That's pretty much like how it's

642
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,847
been for like the last 20 years.

643
00:22:35,454 --> 00:22:36,989
Staten Island tonight, the

644
00:22:37,123 --> 00:22:38,724
story of another missing child.

645
00:22:38,858 --> 00:22:40,092
7-year-old Holly Hughes

646
00:22:40,226 --> 00:22:41,560
disappeared on Wednesday.

647
00:22:41,695 --> 00:22:43,395
So far, no one has any idea what

648
00:22:43,529 --> 00:22:44,930
might have happened to her.

649
00:22:45,065 --> 00:22:46,565
She's very outgoing, very

650
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:47,232
friendly.

651
00:22:47,366 --> 00:22:48,801
Very adorable, I think, you

652
00:22:48,935 --> 00:22:50,769
know.

653
00:22:50,904 --> 00:22:52,171
We just want you to bring

654
00:22:52,305 --> 00:22:56,108
Holly home... today.

655
00:22:56,242 --> 00:22:58,677
And we're...

656
00:22:58,812 --> 00:23:01,313
We're looking for her, and we're

657
00:23:01,447 --> 00:23:04,249
going to get her back.

658
00:23:09,288 --> 00:23:11,556
This is Eddie, Holly Ann, and

659
00:23:11,691 --> 00:23:12,958
Sean.

660
00:23:13,093 --> 00:23:17,295
She was a very warm little girl.

661
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:18,697
Typical 7-year-old.

662
00:23:18,832 --> 00:23:20,532
You know, I mean, cute as a

663
00:23:20,666 --> 00:23:22,134
button.

664
00:23:22,268 --> 00:23:23,602
You know, that's probably one of

665
00:23:23,737 --> 00:23:24,937
the last things that you ever

666
00:23:25,071 --> 00:23:26,338
think about that could possibly

667
00:23:26,472 --> 00:23:27,806
happen, that somebody would take

668
00:23:27,941 --> 00:23:29,141
your daughter.

669
00:23:29,475 --> 00:23:34,346
The mother and I weren't conversing at
the time in a proper way because we were

670
00:23:34,348 --> 00:23:36,248
having a little custody problem

671
00:23:36,250 --> 00:23:38,717
there during that separation

672
00:23:38,719 --> 00:23:39,484
period.

673
00:23:39,486 --> 00:23:41,686
I remember just searching all

674
00:23:41,688 --> 00:23:42,721
night long.

675
00:23:42,723 --> 00:23:44,990
I mean everywhere... the train

676
00:23:44,992 --> 00:23:47,392
trestle, park Avenue... anywhere

677
00:23:47,394 --> 00:23:49,694
I could possibly think of where

678
00:23:49,696 --> 00:23:50,863
she might be.

679
00:23:50,865 --> 00:23:53,265
I was getting very strange phone

680
00:23:53,267 --> 00:23:56,534
calls from anonymous people that

681
00:23:56,536 --> 00:23:58,403
they knew where Holly Ann was.

682
00:23:58,405 --> 00:24:00,139
Just crazy things, you know?

683
00:24:00,141 --> 00:24:01,473
Unbelievable things.

684
00:24:01,475 --> 00:24:03,242
But no one ever mentioned

685
00:24:03,244 --> 00:24:04,076
Andre Rand?

686
00:24:04,078 --> 00:24:06,344
No.

687
00:24:06,346 --> 00:24:07,946
Rand was interviewed and

688
00:24:07,948 --> 00:24:09,514
released back in 1981 after

689
00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:11,150
being spotted on Holly Ann's

690
00:24:11,152 --> 00:24:12,951
street the day she disappeared.

691
00:24:12,953 --> 00:24:14,586
Now, 20 years later, the D.A.

692
00:24:14,588 --> 00:24:16,321
Finally believes he has enough

693
00:24:16,323 --> 00:24:18,190
evidence to get a conviction.

694
00:24:18,192 --> 00:24:20,125
However, there is another issue

695
00:24:20,127 --> 00:24:22,060
that concerns local residents.

696
00:24:22,062 --> 00:24:23,896
Rand will be up for parole in

697
00:24:23,898 --> 00:24:25,630
less than four years, which

698
00:24:25,632 --> 00:24:27,499
means he may walk the streets

699
00:24:27,501 --> 00:24:28,366
once again.

700
00:24:28,368 --> 00:24:30,335
We are here today in support

701
00:24:30,337 --> 00:24:32,437
for Holly Ann Hughes' family.

702
00:24:32,772 --> 00:24:35,573
The common thread that we share

703
00:24:35,708 --> 00:24:38,410
with the family is Andre Rand,

704
00:24:38,544 --> 00:24:41,579
the alleged...

705
00:24:41,714 --> 00:24:42,214
Bad guy.

706
00:24:42,348 --> 00:24:43,949
Does it make you angry that

707
00:24:44,083 --> 00:24:45,517
this guy has been out there

708
00:24:45,651 --> 00:24:47,319
since Holly Ann's disappearance,

709
00:24:47,453 --> 00:24:48,854
and then your daughter was

710
00:24:48,988 --> 00:24:50,355
taken?

711
00:24:50,489 --> 00:24:52,191
I think that in reality,

712
00:24:52,325 --> 00:24:53,926
Jennifer was the one that

713
00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:55,828
probably brought this all to

714
00:24:55,962 --> 00:24:57,863
life for the simple reason she

715
00:24:57,997 --> 00:24:59,832
was found, number one, and it

716
00:24:59,966 --> 00:25:01,200
opened the case for

717
00:25:01,334 --> 00:25:04,002
Holly Ann Hughes.

718
00:25:04,137 --> 00:25:05,770
Cases like this never go

719
00:25:06,439 --> 00:25:08,173
it's like the whole community

720
00:25:08,308 --> 00:25:10,142
was just thrown into chaos over

721
00:25:10,276 --> 00:25:10,675
this.

722
00:25:10,810 --> 00:25:12,377
You know, here's this guy,

723
00:25:12,511 --> 00:25:14,412
allegedly, going around, picking

724
00:25:14,547 --> 00:25:15,948
off these kids.

725
00:25:16,282 --> 00:25:21,486
I mean, there are all these rumors that fly
about the Island about this guy, and the media,

726
00:25:21,488 --> 00:25:23,388
you know, have painted him as an

727
00:25:23,390 --> 00:25:26,458
absolute fucking monster.

728
00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:28,927
And he may very well be.

729
00:25:28,929 --> 00:25:29,995
There's no physical or

730
00:25:29,997 --> 00:25:31,396
scientific evidence that I know

731
00:25:31,398 --> 00:25:33,098
of in this case.

732
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:34,766
There's no body.

733
00:25:34,768 --> 00:25:37,035
They haven't found her.

734
00:25:37,037 --> 00:25:38,904
It's all circumstantial.

735
00:25:40,806 --> 00:25:41,907
They've gone.

736
00:25:42,041 --> 00:25:43,508
They've dug up graves.

737
00:25:43,642 --> 00:25:45,177
They've gone to his old

738
00:25:45,311 --> 00:25:46,778
neighborhood.

739
00:25:46,913 --> 00:25:48,513
They searched his car.

740
00:25:48,647 --> 00:25:50,815
There's nothing that's come up.

741
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:52,851
So I'm completely confident

742
00:25:52,986 --> 00:25:54,953
that, you know, he didn't do

743
00:25:55,621 --> 00:25:57,356
so why do you think the D.A.

744
00:25:57,490 --> 00:25:58,790
Is pursuing this case?

745
00:25:58,925 --> 00:26:00,458
Mr. Murphy just recently

746
00:26:00,593 --> 00:26:01,159
retired.

747
00:26:01,294 --> 00:26:02,895
This was one of his probably

748
00:26:03,029 --> 00:26:04,662
last, biggest investigations,

749
00:26:04,797 --> 00:26:06,498
this Rand case, and perhaps he

750
00:26:06,632 --> 00:26:08,400
wanted to put this baby to rest

751
00:26:08,534 --> 00:26:11,036
before he left office.

752
00:26:18,344 --> 00:26:20,478
I remember the inadequacies

753
00:26:20,613 --> 00:26:22,781
of the witness' statements back

754
00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:25,650
in 1981 and 1982.

755
00:26:25,985 --> 00:26:33,992
Some of them were out-and-out alcoholics who
just didn't have clear recollections of what was

756
00:26:33,994 --> 00:26:36,828
going on from day to day, but in

757
00:26:36,830 --> 00:26:39,431
recovery, their memories were

758
00:26:39,433 --> 00:26:40,532
improved.

759
00:26:40,534 --> 00:26:43,168
That the Andre Rand story is

760
00:26:43,170 --> 00:26:46,004
being told is simply an example

761
00:26:46,006 --> 00:26:48,840
of what can be done if people

762
00:26:48,842 --> 00:26:50,309
remain vigilant, remain

763
00:26:50,311 --> 00:26:52,210
concerned about what's going on

764
00:26:52,212 --> 00:26:57,549
around them.

765
00:26:57,551 --> 00:26:59,184
15 years after uncovering the

766
00:26:59,186 --> 00:27:00,585
body of Jennifer Schweiger,

767
00:27:00,587 --> 00:27:02,187
Donna Cutugno still digs around

768
00:27:02,189 --> 00:27:03,388
the grounds of the old

769
00:27:03,390 --> 00:27:05,023
willowbrook state school, hoping

770
00:27:05,025 --> 00:27:06,524
to find evidence of the other

771
00:27:08,862 --> 00:27:10,395
so, who do you think we're

772
00:27:10,397 --> 00:27:11,229
looking for?

773
00:27:11,231 --> 00:27:12,931
We're looking for Holly and

774
00:27:12,933 --> 00:27:15,434
Alice and the rest of the

775
00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:17,436
do you think they're all

776
00:27:17,438 --> 00:27:18,203
buried here?

777
00:27:18,205 --> 00:27:19,604
Well, I don't know about

778
00:27:19,606 --> 00:27:20,072
Alice.

779
00:27:20,074 --> 00:27:21,606
I don't really feel that she's

780
00:27:22,042 --> 00:27:23,675
I don't know where she would be.

781
00:27:23,677 --> 00:27:25,944
But I think that...

782
00:27:25,946 --> 00:27:27,579
The rest of them, including

783
00:27:27,581 --> 00:27:29,147
Hank, I think may be here.

784
00:27:29,149 --> 00:27:29,647
Yeah.

785
00:27:29,649 --> 00:27:31,083
I can imagine how other

786
00:27:31,085 --> 00:27:32,817
parents... even if your kid's

787
00:27:32,819 --> 00:27:34,652
gone for an hour, I can imagine

788
00:27:34,654 --> 00:27:36,388
how they must feel, you know,

789
00:27:36,390 --> 00:27:37,255
not knowing.

790
00:27:37,257 --> 00:27:38,823
Goes back to that original

791
00:27:38,825 --> 00:27:39,491
feeling.

792
00:27:39,493 --> 00:27:41,093
Could've been my children.

793
00:27:41,095 --> 00:27:42,961
They're the most precious thing

794
00:27:42,963 --> 00:27:44,762
in my life, and no one's gonna

795
00:27:44,764 --> 00:27:46,298
take my kids away from me.

796
00:27:46,632 --> 00:27:46,898
Hi.

797
00:27:47,566 --> 00:27:49,001
Yeah, this is Devin's room.

798
00:27:49,135 --> 00:27:50,402
He loves "star wars" and

799
00:27:50,536 --> 00:27:52,904
worships George Lucas.

800
00:27:53,239 --> 00:27:57,409
A lot of reasons why my children were always
involved in these things was 'cause I was so

801
00:27:57,411 --> 00:27:58,477
afraid to leave them.

802
00:27:59,113 --> 00:28:00,178
The whole Rand thing.

803
00:28:00,180 --> 00:28:01,313
Suppose he got out on a

804
00:28:01,315 --> 00:28:02,047
technicality.

805
00:28:02,049 --> 00:28:03,215
Would he come after me?

806
00:28:03,217 --> 00:28:04,649
You know, that's always in the

807
00:28:04,651 --> 00:28:08,153
back of my mind, till this day.

808
00:28:08,155 --> 00:28:09,388
For years, Rand had been

809
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:10,855
shuffled around various New York

810
00:28:10,857 --> 00:28:12,173
state prisons, where he shared

811
00:28:12,175 --> 00:28:13,475
cellblocks with the likes of

812
00:28:13,477 --> 00:28:15,143
David Berkowitz, a.k.a.

813
00:28:15,145 --> 00:28:17,145
Son of Sam, and child killer

814
00:28:17,147 --> 00:28:19,380
Joel Steinberg.

815
00:28:19,382 --> 00:28:20,615
In the past few weeks, he had

816
00:28:20,617 --> 00:28:21,917
been moved to Rikers Island for

817
00:28:21,919 --> 00:28:24,753
the upcoming trial.

818
00:28:24,755 --> 00:28:26,387
We had sent him letters trying

819
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:28,156
to arrange an interview but got

820
00:28:28,158 --> 00:28:28,957
no response.

821
00:28:28,959 --> 00:28:30,425
Then on the day Barb and I

822
00:28:30,427 --> 00:28:31,593
decided to visit him

823
00:28:31,595 --> 00:28:33,194
unannounced, we received this

824
00:28:33,196 --> 00:28:35,063
letter.

825
00:28:35,065 --> 00:28:36,431
What do you think it says?

826
00:28:36,433 --> 00:28:37,933
He doesn't really speak to

827
00:28:37,935 --> 00:28:39,534
anyone other than his attorney,

828
00:28:39,536 --> 00:28:41,069
and for years he hasn't spoken

829
00:28:41,071 --> 00:28:41,870
to the press.

830
00:28:41,872 --> 00:28:43,338
Nobody really knows anything

831
00:28:43,340 --> 00:28:44,238
about him.

832
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,374
He puts our phone number at the

833
00:28:46,376 --> 00:28:48,242
top, and he writes, "person

834
00:28:48,244 --> 00:28:50,211
answering the call should be

835
00:28:50,213 --> 00:28:51,045
'Joshua.'

836
00:28:51,047 --> 00:28:52,948
if you want to receive bulk

837
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:55,049
mailings from Mr. Rand over the

838
00:28:55,051 --> 00:28:57,251
next few months, it will need to

839
00:28:57,253 --> 00:28:59,387
be done by sending Rand a legal

840
00:28:59,389 --> 00:29:00,622
mailing address.

841
00:29:00,624 --> 00:29:02,223
This is not so much as

842
00:29:02,225 --> 00:29:04,359
correspondence, but more in the

843
00:29:04,361 --> 00:29:05,961
form of documentation.

844
00:29:05,963 --> 00:29:08,062
Note, Rand was informed by his

845
00:29:08,064 --> 00:29:10,064
attorney to accept only legal

846
00:29:10,066 --> 00:29:10,765
visits.

847
00:29:10,767 --> 00:29:12,801
Rand will not speak to you in

848
00:29:12,803 --> 00:29:14,870
person anytime soon because of

849
00:29:14,872 --> 00:29:15,937
possible subpoena."

850
00:29:15,939 --> 00:29:17,338
What he's saying is, "I'll

851
00:29:17,340 --> 00:29:18,974
communicate with you, as long as

852
00:29:18,976 --> 00:29:21,877
we play by the rules."

853
00:29:49,739 --> 00:29:54,375
Unlike many other states, New York doesn't
allow cameras in the courtroom, and so we

854
00:29:54,377 --> 00:29:55,944
would be forced to interview

855
00:29:55,946 --> 00:29:57,679
many witnesses out on the street

856
00:29:57,681 --> 00:29:58,980
or get our information

857
00:29:58,982 --> 00:30:00,982
secondhand.

858
00:30:00,984 --> 00:30:02,551
17 years, we never stopped

859
00:30:02,553 --> 00:30:03,585
talking about it.

860
00:30:03,587 --> 00:30:05,219
It's something that's affected

861
00:30:05,221 --> 00:30:06,655
everybody that I know from

862
00:30:06,657 --> 00:30:07,889
Staten Island, certainly.

863
00:30:07,891 --> 00:30:09,090
Everybody knew about

864
00:30:09,092 --> 00:30:09,758
Andre Rand.

865
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:10,892
But not the extent.

866
00:30:10,894 --> 00:30:12,493
In the back of their minds, they

867
00:30:12,495 --> 00:30:13,929
didn't really think they were

868
00:30:13,931 --> 00:30:16,998
ever gonna catch him.

869
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,833
There's no reason for him to

870
00:30:18,835 --> 00:30:20,602
exist anywhere else, you know,

871
00:30:20,604 --> 00:30:22,837
other than jail.

872
00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:24,906
There's that gigantic fear,

873
00:30:24,908 --> 00:30:26,975
you know, wondering whether or

874
00:30:26,977 --> 00:30:29,044
not the bogeyman is gonna come

875
00:30:29,046 --> 00:30:30,912
get their kids.

876
00:30:51,233 --> 00:30:56,471
So, this building is where Holly Ann Hughes
used to live. Andre Rand's aunt used to live

877
00:30:56,473 --> 00:30:58,106
on the second floor of that

878
00:30:58,108 --> 00:30:59,307
building, as well.

879
00:30:59,309 --> 00:31:01,042
Holly was outside playing one

880
00:31:01,044 --> 00:31:04,312
evening, and Andre Rand was here

881
00:31:04,314 --> 00:31:05,113
to visit.

882
00:31:05,115 --> 00:31:06,815
And then got into his

883
00:31:06,817 --> 00:31:07,749
Volkswagen.

884
00:31:07,751 --> 00:31:09,651
Apparently then Holly walked

885
00:31:09,653 --> 00:31:11,219
down this street to...

886
00:31:11,221 --> 00:31:16,491
That deli right down there.

887
00:31:16,493 --> 00:31:18,026
Holly was last seen at this

888
00:31:18,028 --> 00:31:19,594
deli, just down the street from

889
00:31:19,596 --> 00:31:20,228
her home.

890
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:21,830
A clerk says she came in at 9:30

891
00:31:21,832 --> 00:31:23,331
Wednesday night with 27 cents

892
00:31:23,333 --> 00:31:24,866
and bought a bar of soap.

893
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,400
She's a quiet girl, you know?

894
00:31:26,401 --> 00:31:27,235
She didn't say nothing to

895
00:31:27,369 --> 00:31:27,602
nobody.

896
00:31:27,737 --> 00:31:28,737
And she just got her thing and

897
00:31:28,871 --> 00:31:29,070
left.

898
00:31:29,204 --> 00:31:30,005
I really don't know what

899
00:31:30,139 --> 00:31:31,139
happened after that.

900
00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:32,306
I worked in the deli there.

901
00:31:32,441 --> 00:31:33,074
Girl comes in.

902
00:31:33,208 --> 00:31:34,275
Who? Holly Ann Hughes?

903
00:31:34,409 --> 00:31:35,243
Holly Ann. Yeah.

904
00:31:35,377 --> 00:31:36,645
She came in. When was this?

905
00:31:36,779 --> 00:31:37,545
This was in 1981.

906
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:38,680
1981.

907
00:31:38,748 --> 00:31:43,317
She went to buy a bar of soap. The bar
of soap was 31 cents. Why do I remember?

908
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:44,919
Because she was short four

909
00:31:44,921 --> 00:31:45,319
cents.

910
00:31:45,321 --> 00:31:46,621
And the old man working behind

911
00:31:46,623 --> 00:31:48,023
the counter, he wouldn't give it

912
00:31:48,025 --> 00:31:48,456
to her.

913
00:31:48,458 --> 00:31:51,660
That's why I remember.

914
00:31:51,662 --> 00:31:53,094
When I seen his picture, I said,

915
00:31:53,096 --> 00:31:54,228
"yeah, I've seen that guy

916
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:54,696
before.

917
00:31:54,698 --> 00:31:56,064
You know, he's like a quiet guy

918
00:31:56,066 --> 00:31:56,698
to himself.

919
00:31:56,700 --> 00:31:57,700
He don't look right."

920
00:31:57,701 --> 00:31:59,000
Like I think he talked with a

921
00:31:59,002 --> 00:32:00,334
speech impediment, but I'm not

922
00:32:00,336 --> 00:32:00,769
sure.

923
00:32:00,771 --> 00:32:02,137
And did anybody else ever

924
00:32:02,139 --> 00:32:03,321
disappear from that

925
00:32:03,323 --> 00:32:03,889
neighborhood?

926
00:32:03,891 --> 00:32:05,090
Yeah. Hank Gafforio.

927
00:32:05,092 --> 00:32:06,491
Looked just like Mick Jagger.

928
00:32:06,493 --> 00:32:07,592
Disappeared from that

929
00:32:08,328 --> 00:32:09,494
how long afterwards?

930
00:32:09,496 --> 00:32:10,428
The same time.

931
00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:11,763
He was a little slow... Hank.

932
00:32:11,765 --> 00:32:13,098
His brother swears that

933
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:14,966
Andre Rand killed him.

934
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,540
They came to me all those

935
00:32:22,674 --> 00:32:23,174
years ago.

936
00:32:23,309 --> 00:32:25,076
But that was 18 years ago.

937
00:32:25,411 --> 00:32:27,979
And they said, "we need some
help." He was supposedly at the

938
00:32:27,981 --> 00:32:29,247
diner at like 3:00, 4:00 in the

939
00:32:29,249 --> 00:32:30,348
morning with Rand.

940
00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:31,682
A handful of people came

941
00:32:31,684 --> 00:32:33,451
forward... a handful... handful.

942
00:32:33,453 --> 00:32:34,852
And, again, he was older.

943
00:32:34,854 --> 00:32:36,521
You know, that had a lot to do

944
00:32:36,523 --> 00:32:37,122
with it.

945
00:32:37,124 --> 00:32:40,591
He was 21.

946
00:32:40,593 --> 00:32:41,692
We were watching this

947
00:32:41,694 --> 00:32:42,994
reporter standing in front of

948
00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:44,262
Holly Ann Hughes' house, and

949
00:32:44,264 --> 00:32:45,397
right off her shoulder is

950
00:32:45,399 --> 00:32:47,098
Hank Gafforio.

951
00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:48,433
It'd be funny to see him pop

952
00:32:48,435 --> 00:32:49,435
up in one of these.

953
00:32:50,570 --> 00:32:54,372
Holly home.

954
00:32:55,242 --> 00:32:57,208
The two days since Holly Ann

955
00:32:57,210 --> 00:32:58,243
disappeared...

956
00:32:58,245 --> 00:33:01,512
There. That's Hank Gafforio.

957
00:33:01,514 --> 00:33:03,681
Right there?

958
00:33:03,683 --> 00:33:05,083
Yeah.

959
00:33:05,085 --> 00:33:12,090
That number again, 987-7935.

960
00:33:12,092 --> 00:33:13,691
Too many coincidences, you

961
00:33:14,161 --> 00:33:15,793
and like I said, before I die,

962
00:33:15,795 --> 00:33:17,395
I would love this guy to just

963
00:33:17,397 --> 00:33:18,663
talk to me, just once.

964
00:33:18,665 --> 00:33:20,298
And all he's got to do is just

965
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:21,866
give somebody a note and say,

966
00:33:21,868 --> 00:33:23,568
"this is where they're buried."

967
00:33:23,570 --> 00:33:28,306
That's all.

968
00:33:28,308 --> 00:33:30,342
He sent us, I think, I guess

969
00:33:30,344 --> 00:33:32,077
the view from his window.

970
00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:34,045
This is the decision and order

971
00:33:34,047 --> 00:33:35,313
from the judge...

972
00:33:35,315 --> 00:33:36,581
In the case of

973
00:33:36,583 --> 00:33:37,915
Jennifer Schweiger?

974
00:33:37,917 --> 00:33:39,017
No, no, no.

975
00:33:39,019 --> 00:33:40,551
This is in the case of

976
00:33:40,553 --> 00:33:41,386
Holly Ann.

977
00:33:41,388 --> 00:33:43,421
So he's basically responding

978
00:33:43,423 --> 00:33:45,490
to each of the witnesses in the

979
00:33:45,492 --> 00:33:47,058
last pretrial hearings.

980
00:33:47,060 --> 00:33:48,360
Testimony, right.

981
00:33:48,362 --> 00:33:50,161
It says, "detective Lotito asked

982
00:33:50,163 --> 00:33:51,696
the defendant if he noticed

983
00:33:51,698 --> 00:33:52,998
anything unusual about

984
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,632
Holly Ann Hughes at the time.

985
00:33:54,634 --> 00:33:56,234
The defendant said, 'she was

986
00:33:56,236 --> 00:33:57,302
very, very dirty.

987
00:33:57,304 --> 00:33:58,503
Her legs were dirty.

988
00:33:58,505 --> 00:33:59,804
Her hands were dirty.'

989
00:33:59,806 --> 00:34:01,506
he gave her money and sent her

990
00:34:01,508 --> 00:34:03,141
to the grocery store to buy a

991
00:34:03,143 --> 00:34:04,109
bar of soap.

992
00:34:04,111 --> 00:34:06,077
The court here is continuously

993
00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:07,812
quoting the detectives' own

994
00:34:07,814 --> 00:34:09,214
invented statements.

995
00:34:09,216 --> 00:34:11,182
The defendant never met or saw

996
00:34:11,184 --> 00:34:13,218
Hughes at any time, nor did the

997
00:34:13,220 --> 00:34:15,520
defendant admit these things."

998
00:34:30,102 --> 00:34:35,073
The only witness today was Elsie Castro.
She lived across the street from

999
00:34:35,075 --> 00:34:36,674
where Holly Ann lived.

1000
00:34:36,676 --> 00:34:38,576
She says on her side of the

1001
00:34:38,578 --> 00:34:40,345
street, but one house up,

1002
00:34:40,347 --> 00:34:41,612
there's a green Volkswagen.

1003
00:34:41,614 --> 00:34:42,980
She doesn't see anybody in the

1004
00:34:42,982 --> 00:34:43,848
green Volkswagen.

1005
00:34:43,850 --> 00:34:45,016
She goes into the house.

1006
00:34:45,018 --> 00:34:46,351
She goes to take a shower and

1007
00:34:46,353 --> 00:34:48,453
discovers that there's no soap.

1008
00:34:48,455 --> 00:34:49,921
Larry interviewed

1009
00:34:50,957 --> 00:34:53,458
she saw nothing.

1010
00:34:53,460 --> 00:34:55,193
But she claims she bought a

1011
00:34:55,195 --> 00:34:57,195
bar of soap at the store and was

1012
00:34:57,197 --> 00:34:58,396
five cents short.

1013
00:34:58,398 --> 00:35:00,265
It's very coincidental that

1014
00:35:00,267 --> 00:35:01,999
she was a nickel short when

1015
00:35:02,001 --> 00:35:03,701
Holly Ann was reportedly a

1016
00:35:03,703 --> 00:35:05,370
nickel short, as well, all

1017
00:35:05,372 --> 00:35:07,372
within the time span of about an

1018
00:35:07,374 --> 00:35:07,805
hour.

1019
00:35:07,807 --> 00:35:09,307
So do you think the other

1020
00:35:09,309 --> 00:35:10,508
witness misremembered?

1021
00:35:10,510 --> 00:35:11,443
I don't know.

1022
00:35:11,445 --> 00:35:13,044
And what that says, if I don't

1023
00:35:13,046 --> 00:35:14,645
know and the jury doesn't know,

1024
00:35:14,647 --> 00:35:16,181
that's reasonable doubt.

1025
00:35:16,183 --> 00:35:17,648
This is Elsie's car.

1026
00:35:17,650 --> 00:35:18,783
Elsie Castro.

1027
00:35:18,785 --> 00:35:19,517
Right.

1028
00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:21,152
Here, the kids were all back and

1029
00:35:21,154 --> 00:35:21,952
forth around here.

1030
00:35:21,954 --> 00:35:22,887
On that corner.

1031
00:35:22,889 --> 00:35:24,322
And where was the actual point

1032
00:35:24,324 --> 00:35:25,623
where they believed she was

1033
00:35:26,092 --> 00:35:27,358
well, this is the other

1034
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:27,792
thing.

1035
00:35:27,794 --> 00:35:31,195
We're not sure. Look at that.

1036
00:35:31,197 --> 00:35:32,297
A Volkswagen.

1037
00:35:32,299 --> 00:35:34,465
He came back to see what was

1038
00:35:34,467 --> 00:35:35,866
going on.

1039
00:35:36,201 --> 00:35:38,903
All of the crimes that we seem

1040
00:35:39,037 --> 00:35:41,872
to link him to all took place in

1041
00:35:42,007 --> 00:35:44,475
July, with the exception of

1042
00:35:44,610 --> 00:35:45,677
tiahease.

1043
00:35:46,011 --> 00:35:48,746
This was tiahease... tai.

1044
00:35:59,625 --> 00:36:05,062
She lived with her mother, and I believe there
were four other siblings, and they were all in

1045
00:36:05,064 --> 00:36:06,798
one room in the Conca d'Dro.

1046
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,566
It was a welfare hotel at the

1047
00:36:08,568 --> 00:36:10,100
particular time.

1048
00:36:10,102 --> 00:36:12,570
It was an August day, and the

1049
00:36:12,572 --> 00:36:14,905
older brother left tiahease

1050
00:36:14,907 --> 00:36:16,507
talking to a man.

1051
00:36:16,509 --> 00:36:18,710
That man was described as

1052
00:36:18,712 --> 00:36:21,446
someone that looked like Andre.

1053
00:36:21,448 --> 00:36:23,881
She's never been seen again.

1054
00:36:23,883 --> 00:36:26,250
The evidence is the bodies.

1055
00:36:26,252 --> 00:36:28,919
I'm sure buried somewhere, he's

1056
00:36:28,921 --> 00:36:30,521
got the evidence.

1057
00:36:30,523 --> 00:36:33,190
We just haven't found it in the

1058
00:36:33,192 --> 00:36:35,460
woods yet.

1059
00:36:35,462 --> 00:36:37,562
Sniff it out.

1060
00:36:37,564 --> 00:36:38,529
Whatcha got, boy?

1061
00:36:38,531 --> 00:36:39,997
Donna is searching one of

1062
00:36:39,999 --> 00:36:41,466
Rand's former campsites with

1063
00:36:41,468 --> 00:36:42,967
Luis Rivera, a retired police

1064
00:36:42,969 --> 00:36:44,502
officer who helped search for

1065
00:36:44,504 --> 00:36:45,603
Jennifer the day she

1066
00:36:45,605 --> 00:36:50,074
disappeared.

1067
00:36:50,076 --> 00:36:52,276
Find the body, boy.

1068
00:36:52,278 --> 00:36:53,110
Find the body.

1069
00:36:53,112 --> 00:36:54,112
Sniff it out.

1070
00:36:55,814 --> 00:36:57,147
One body that I found with my

1071
00:36:57,282 --> 00:36:59,149
dog was 22 years in the ground.

1072
00:36:59,485 --> 00:37:04,722
So the possibilities are really there.
It's just a matter of coming

1073
00:37:04,724 --> 00:37:07,224
back out, concentrating on small

1074
00:37:07,226 --> 00:37:10,160
areas at a time.

1075
00:37:10,162 --> 00:37:11,162
Come on, boy.

1076
00:37:13,065 --> 00:37:14,098
Find the body, boy.

1077
00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:15,566
Where do you think most of

1078
00:37:15,568 --> 00:37:16,434
these kids are?

1079
00:37:16,436 --> 00:37:17,968
It's hard to say.

1080
00:37:18,303 --> 00:37:20,838
They're buried...

1081
00:37:20,972 --> 00:37:22,940
Somewhere in Staten Island.

1082
00:37:23,275 --> 00:37:27,978
Detective Frank Saez is one of the foremost
experts on the cold cases of New York City's

1083
00:37:27,980 --> 00:37:28,980
missing children.

1084
00:37:28,981 --> 00:37:30,515
I mean, he could come and

1085
00:37:30,517 --> 00:37:34,018
say, "listen," someday, "I'll

1086
00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:35,787
give you the bodies," and take

1087
00:37:35,789 --> 00:37:37,655
you to a location, and you could

1088
00:37:37,657 --> 00:37:40,825
be shocked where it's at.

1089
00:37:40,827 --> 00:37:42,259
If you look around, you can

1090
00:37:42,261 --> 00:37:43,628
actually see the perimeter of

1091
00:37:43,630 --> 00:37:44,261
this area.

1092
00:37:44,263 --> 00:37:45,396
And this was one of his

1093
00:37:45,398 --> 00:37:46,330
campsites.

1094
00:37:46,332 --> 00:37:48,499
This did not have a lean-to or

1095
00:37:48,501 --> 00:37:50,768
a latrine or anything set up the

1096
00:37:50,770 --> 00:37:53,003
way the campsite at willowbrook

1097
00:37:53,005 --> 00:37:55,239
did, but kids did say that they

1098
00:37:55,241 --> 00:37:57,408
would see him sitting in here.

1099
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:59,577
So, this was where he lived in

1100
00:37:59,579 --> 00:38:01,946
the warmer months.

1101
00:38:01,948 --> 00:38:03,915
Seek it out.

1102
00:38:03,917 --> 00:38:06,083
Seek it out, boy.

1103
00:38:06,085 --> 00:38:08,319
They say the death of a child

1104
00:38:08,321 --> 00:38:10,220
is the worst possible crime

1105
00:38:10,222 --> 00:38:12,022
anybody can ever imagine.

1106
00:38:12,024 --> 00:38:13,157
Absolutely.

1107
00:38:13,159 --> 00:38:15,192
But the missing of a child is

1108
00:38:15,194 --> 00:38:17,127
even worse, because if your

1109
00:38:17,129 --> 00:38:19,229
child dies and you bury him or

1110
00:38:19,231 --> 00:38:21,265
her, then at least you have a

1111
00:38:21,267 --> 00:38:23,233
place that you can go to.

1112
00:38:23,235 --> 00:38:25,536
When your child disappears and

1113
00:38:25,538 --> 00:38:27,905
you don't know where that child

1114
00:38:27,907 --> 00:38:30,007
is, to a parent, a child is

1115
00:38:30,009 --> 00:38:32,376
never dead until an officer can

1116
00:38:32,378 --> 00:38:34,612
actually bring the remains to

1117
00:38:34,614 --> 00:38:36,814
them.

1118
00:38:36,816 --> 00:38:38,449
Somebody's using this area

1119
00:38:38,918 --> 00:38:40,485
see, when you find things

1120
00:38:40,487 --> 00:38:44,121
like articles of clothing, like

1121
00:38:44,123 --> 00:38:47,658
this is a kid's shoe, shampoo,

1122
00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:51,428
tape...

1123
00:38:51,430 --> 00:38:53,097
Luis!

1124
00:38:53,099 --> 00:38:54,532
Come on back.

1125
00:38:54,534 --> 00:38:56,534
Okay, there's shoes, duct tape,

1126
00:38:56,536 --> 00:39:01,739
and look how soft the ground is.

1127
00:39:01,741 --> 00:39:03,273
It's real soft.

1128
00:39:06,345 --> 00:39:09,013
Sniff it out, boy.

1129
00:39:09,015 --> 00:39:13,551
Dig it out, boy.

1130
00:39:13,553 --> 00:39:14,886
It's areas like this that we

1131
00:39:14,888 --> 00:39:16,253
would dig, just to see, because

1132
00:39:16,255 --> 00:39:17,588
that looks a little suspicious.

1133
00:39:17,590 --> 00:39:19,456
You never know.

1134
00:39:27,049 --> 00:39:30,484
So, this corrections officer keeps saying on
the bus every morning that Rand says he's

1135
00:39:30,486 --> 00:39:32,653
innocent and he didn't do it.

1136
00:39:32,655 --> 00:39:34,722
And the corrections officer

1137
00:39:34,724 --> 00:39:37,025
says, "then consider yourself a

1138
00:39:37,027 --> 00:39:38,859
martyr for the safety of

1139
00:39:39,762 --> 00:39:43,431
and that's what you are."

1140
00:39:43,433 --> 00:39:44,799
Holly Ann's brother,

1141
00:39:44,801 --> 00:39:46,434
ed Armstrong, took the stand

1142
00:39:46,436 --> 00:39:46,968
today.

1143
00:39:46,970 --> 00:39:48,803
He was 14 years old when he last

1144
00:39:48,805 --> 00:39:50,471
saw his sister on the day she

1145
00:39:51,308 --> 00:39:52,773
since then, he's become a

1146
00:39:52,775 --> 00:39:53,841
lieutenant in the

1147
00:39:53,843 --> 00:39:55,410
New York police department.

1148
00:39:55,412 --> 00:39:57,145
He's also been instrumental in

1149
00:39:57,147 --> 00:40:00,048
bringing this case to trial.

1150
00:40:00,050 --> 00:40:01,615
If he has any humanity left

1151
00:40:01,617 --> 00:40:03,084
in his soul, you know, maybe

1152
00:40:03,086 --> 00:40:04,518
he'll see that there was an

1153
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:05,954
error in his way, and, you

1154
00:40:05,956 --> 00:40:07,555
know, I could forgive him if he

1155
00:40:07,557 --> 00:40:08,923
returned the remains of my

1156
00:40:08,925 --> 00:40:09,457
sister.

1157
00:40:09,459 --> 00:40:11,025
And that's all we ever wanted.

1158
00:40:11,027 --> 00:40:12,560
You know, I didn't care if we

1159
00:40:12,562 --> 00:40:14,062
ever got a day extra added to

1160
00:40:14,064 --> 00:40:14,862
his sentence.

1161
00:40:14,864 --> 00:40:16,264
All I ever wanted were the

1162
00:40:16,266 --> 00:40:17,398
remains of my sister.

1163
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,067
If he's got anything left, he'll

1164
00:40:19,069 --> 00:40:25,539
do that for us.

1165
00:40:25,541 --> 00:40:26,807
Here's Holly Ann.

1166
00:40:26,809 --> 00:40:28,576
You were involved in all of

1167
00:40:28,578 --> 00:40:29,610
these searches?

1168
00:40:29,612 --> 00:40:33,314
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1169
00:40:33,648 --> 00:40:34,768
How long do you think you

1170
00:40:34,883 --> 00:40:37,651
searched for her for?

1171
00:40:37,786 --> 00:40:38,919
For years.

1172
00:40:41,590 --> 00:40:46,227
"Will the unlucky 7 ever turn
up?" Rushan, his name was...

1173
00:40:46,229 --> 00:40:48,729
R-u-s-h-a-n.

1174
00:40:48,731 --> 00:40:51,232
And he changed it to Rand.

1175
00:40:51,234 --> 00:40:52,867
This is one where Jennifer was

1176
00:40:52,869 --> 00:40:53,468
missing.

1177
00:40:53,470 --> 00:40:54,969
Do you think there's any

1178
00:40:54,971 --> 00:40:56,670
credence in the idea that maybe

1179
00:40:56,672 --> 00:40:58,206
Jennifer was reburied at the

1180
00:40:58,208 --> 00:40:58,839
campsite?

1181
00:40:58,841 --> 00:41:00,508
They found her with the head

1182
00:41:00,510 --> 00:41:02,110
down, I think it was, and the

1183
00:41:02,112 --> 00:41:03,744
blood was in the feet, like she

1184
00:41:03,746 --> 00:41:04,778
was repositioned.

1185
00:41:04,780 --> 00:41:06,947
So who do you think maybe...

1186
00:41:06,949 --> 00:41:08,182
That's why we thought there

1187
00:41:08,184 --> 00:41:09,317
might have been other people

1188
00:41:09,319 --> 00:41:12,120
involved.

1189
00:41:12,122 --> 00:41:13,721
The rumors surrounding the

1190
00:41:13,723 --> 00:41:14,922
missing children were

1191
00:41:14,924 --> 00:41:15,789
overwhelming.

1192
00:41:15,791 --> 00:41:17,425
Some believed that Rand didn't

1193
00:41:17,427 --> 00:41:19,160
act alone, that he had help from

1194
00:41:19,162 --> 00:41:20,861
one of the homeless or a former

1195
00:41:20,863 --> 00:41:22,263
patient from willowbrook.

1196
00:41:22,265 --> 00:41:23,998
Others thought he was framed and

1197
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,633
that the real killer was still

1198
00:41:25,635 --> 00:41:28,569
out there.

1199
00:41:28,571 --> 00:41:30,171
The only person who knew the

1200
00:41:30,173 --> 00:41:31,539
truth was Rand himself.

1201
00:41:31,541 --> 00:41:33,390
For weeks we had been exchanging

1202
00:41:33,392 --> 00:41:35,092
letters in hopes of getting an

1203
00:41:35,094 --> 00:41:40,097
interview.

1204
00:41:40,099 --> 00:41:41,866
But Rand refused to give us any

1205
00:41:41,868 --> 00:41:42,700
information.

1206
00:41:42,702 --> 00:41:44,101
He felt all the unwanted

1207
00:41:44,103 --> 00:41:45,636
attention would expose the

1208
00:41:45,638 --> 00:41:47,337
nature of his suspected crimes

1209
00:41:47,339 --> 00:41:49,006
to his fellow inmates and put

1210
00:41:49,008 --> 00:41:50,274
his life in jeopardy.

1211
00:41:50,276 --> 00:41:51,709
"A video interview while

1212
00:41:51,711 --> 00:41:53,177
incarcerated is likely to

1213
00:41:53,179 --> 00:41:54,845
instigate violent and jealous

1214
00:41:54,847 --> 00:41:56,513
actions, detriment to my life

1215
00:41:56,515 --> 00:41:58,315
and/or property as caused by the

1216
00:41:58,317 --> 00:41:58,949
press."

1217
00:41:58,951 --> 00:42:00,751
Since Rand wouldn't speak

1218
00:42:00,753 --> 00:42:02,553
with us, we had to follow any

1219
00:42:02,555 --> 00:42:03,555
lead...

1220
00:42:04,390 --> 00:42:06,123
...find anyone who might have

1221
00:42:06,125 --> 00:42:08,492
known him in the past.

1222
00:42:08,494 --> 00:42:09,426
Hey, I'm looking for

1223
00:42:09,428 --> 00:42:10,127
Richard Frear.

1224
00:42:10,129 --> 00:42:10,995
Does he live here?

1225
00:42:10,997 --> 00:42:11,962
He doesn't live here?

1226
00:42:11,964 --> 00:42:13,263
I thought he live... he doesn't

1227
00:42:13,265 --> 00:42:14,131
live here anymore?

1228
00:42:14,133 --> 00:42:14,732
He used to.

1229
00:42:14,734 --> 00:42:15,499
Who are they?

1230
00:42:15,501 --> 00:42:16,734
All people who knew Rand.

1231
00:42:16,736 --> 00:42:17,935
How did they know Rand?

1232
00:42:17,937 --> 00:42:19,303
Through Donna's notes, they

1233
00:42:19,305 --> 00:42:20,671
said, "oh, you know, friend of

1234
00:42:20,673 --> 00:42:21,072
Rand.

1235
00:42:21,074 --> 00:42:23,174
Knew Rand."

1236
00:42:23,176 --> 00:42:24,374
You don't recognize any of

1237
00:42:24,376 --> 00:42:25,042
these names?

1238
00:42:25,044 --> 00:42:26,510
And Willy has passed away there.

1239
00:42:26,512 --> 00:42:27,512
Oh, okay.

1240
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,379
Does a guy Thomas live here?

1241
00:42:29,715 --> 00:42:32,282
I was around 6, 7 years old,

1242
00:42:32,417 --> 00:42:34,952
and we was all outside playing

1243
00:42:35,087 --> 00:42:36,553
at the YMCA.

1244
00:42:36,888 --> 00:42:40,224
The guy was like, "y'all want to go on
a trip?" This is the place right here,

1245
00:42:40,226 --> 00:42:40,624
YMCA.

1246
00:42:40,626 --> 00:42:41,759
He had a bus right here.

1247
00:42:41,761 --> 00:42:42,993
It was parked right here at

1248
00:42:42,995 --> 00:42:43,527
the time.

1249
00:42:43,529 --> 00:42:44,529
I'll never forget it.

1250
00:42:44,530 --> 00:42:45,696
We all hopped on the bus.

1251
00:42:45,698 --> 00:42:46,864
We didn't know no better.

1252
00:42:46,866 --> 00:42:48,232
We were little kids, you know?

1253
00:42:48,735 --> 00:42:50,000
He said he was just gonna

1254
00:42:50,002 --> 00:42:50,968
take us to the park.

1255
00:42:50,970 --> 00:42:52,937
We wound up in Newark airport.

1256
00:42:52,939 --> 00:42:54,905
So then after that, he took us

1257
00:42:54,907 --> 00:42:56,874
somewhere in some park, which

1258
00:42:56,876 --> 00:42:58,209
it was pitch-black.

1259
00:42:58,211 --> 00:42:59,810
I think it was willowbrook park

1260
00:42:59,812 --> 00:43:00,577
at the time.

1261
00:43:00,579 --> 00:43:01,345
Pitch-black.

1262
00:43:01,347 --> 00:43:02,780
We were all running around,

1263
00:43:02,782 --> 00:43:04,115
playing hide and seek and

1264
00:43:04,117 --> 00:43:04,849
everything.

1265
00:43:04,851 --> 00:43:06,350
Come to find out we were being

1266
00:43:06,352 --> 00:43:07,885
kidnapped, and we didn't even

1267
00:43:07,887 --> 00:43:09,486
have a clue what was going on.

1268
00:43:09,488 --> 00:43:11,088
I think he attempted something

1269
00:43:11,090 --> 00:43:12,757
that he couldn't accomplish, and

1270
00:43:12,759 --> 00:43:14,458
I think it, like, dawned on him,

1271
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:16,093
like, "I can't do it like this.

1272
00:43:16,095 --> 00:43:17,661
Let me, like, take my steps."

1273
00:43:17,663 --> 00:43:19,296
And I think that's what he did.

1274
00:43:19,298 --> 00:43:20,898
He was like, you know, "let me

1275
00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:21,900
work on my prey."

1276
00:43:21,901 --> 00:43:24,368
And that's what he did.

1277
00:43:24,370 --> 00:43:25,803
While some residents were

1278
00:43:25,805 --> 00:43:27,171
convinced of Rand's guilt,

1279
00:43:27,173 --> 00:43:28,405
others weren't so sure.

1280
00:43:28,407 --> 00:43:29,073
Excuse me.

1281
00:43:29,075 --> 00:43:30,707
Do you guys know a Thomas Micol?

1282
00:43:30,709 --> 00:43:31,475
That's me.

1283
00:43:31,477 --> 00:43:32,209
Oh, hey.

1284
00:43:32,211 --> 00:43:33,644
I worked with Andre Rand.

1285
00:43:33,646 --> 00:43:35,045
Can we talk to you for a

1286
00:43:35,047 --> 00:43:35,946
couple minutes?

1287
00:43:35,948 --> 00:43:36,513
Sure.

1288
00:43:36,515 --> 00:43:37,948
They say that he was totally

1289
00:43:37,950 --> 00:43:39,316
framed for that, that they

1290
00:43:39,318 --> 00:43:42,219
combed that area...

1291
00:43:42,221 --> 00:43:44,221
Like with a fine-tooth comb.

1292
00:43:44,223 --> 00:43:46,257
After they arrested Andre Rand,

1293
00:43:46,259 --> 00:43:48,192
they combed it again, and now

1294
00:43:48,194 --> 00:43:50,194
her body is there, very easily

1295
00:43:50,196 --> 00:43:51,162
to be found.

1296
00:43:51,164 --> 00:43:52,396
So you know what?

1297
00:43:52,398 --> 00:43:54,231
I would think that maybe he

1298
00:43:54,233 --> 00:43:55,666
didn't do it either.

1299
00:43:55,668 --> 00:43:57,534
Somebody who did do it moved

1300
00:43:57,536 --> 00:43:59,236
the body there to frame him.

1301
00:43:59,570 --> 00:44:01,205
I thought they were just

1302
00:44:01,339 --> 00:44:03,073
trying to pin it on somebody,

1303
00:44:03,208 --> 00:44:05,009
and they were gonna blame him,

1304
00:44:05,143 --> 00:44:06,977
because he was this loner, and,

1305
00:44:07,112 --> 00:44:09,013
you know, he kind of looked, you

1306
00:44:09,147 --> 00:44:11,081
know, a little scary.

1307
00:44:11,416 --> 00:44:14,985
Searching through old files, we
came across the name of Bob Graham.

1308
00:44:14,987 --> 00:44:16,453
The notes had indicated that

1309
00:44:16,455 --> 00:44:18,088
he knew Rand and at one time had

1310
00:44:18,090 --> 00:44:19,389
been an early suspect in

1311
00:44:19,391 --> 00:44:20,724
Jennifer's disappearance.

1312
00:44:20,726 --> 00:44:22,059
He briefly worked at a

1313
00:44:22,061 --> 00:44:23,727
hamburger joint on forest Avenue

1314
00:44:23,729 --> 00:44:25,229
called Westley's, and when we

1315
00:44:25,231 --> 00:44:26,496
used to street-race and

1316
00:44:26,498 --> 00:44:28,132
drag-race back in the late '60s,

1317
00:44:28,134 --> 00:44:29,566
early '70s, we used to hide

1318
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:31,635
he had the paper hat on, and he

1319
00:44:31,637 --> 00:44:33,270
was sweeping up the parking lot,

1320
00:44:33,272 --> 00:44:34,771
or he was behind the counter,

1321
00:44:34,773 --> 00:44:36,373
you know, putting cheese on the

1322
00:44:36,375 --> 00:44:37,241
burgers.

1323
00:44:37,243 --> 00:44:39,710
And he had this Volkswagen that

1324
00:44:39,712 --> 00:44:41,812
I noticed was in the weeds

1325
00:44:41,814 --> 00:44:43,447
behind willowbrook.

1326
00:44:43,449 --> 00:44:44,614
He was living in the car;

1327
00:44:44,616 --> 00:44:46,050
There was a pathway down there.

1328
00:44:46,052 --> 00:44:47,351
And I heard things about the

1329
00:44:47,353 --> 00:44:49,786
tunnel network under willowbrook

1330
00:44:49,788 --> 00:44:50,554
state school.

1331
00:44:50,556 --> 00:44:52,022
It was set up like a hub with

1332
00:44:52,024 --> 00:44:52,522
spokes.

1333
00:44:52,524 --> 00:44:53,924
You could get, say, from the

1334
00:44:53,926 --> 00:44:55,326
cafeteria out to every ward.

1335
00:44:55,328 --> 00:44:56,693
He could survive down there

1336
00:44:56,695 --> 00:44:58,195
because he had worked there at

1337
00:44:58,197 --> 00:44:58,695
one time.

1338
00:44:58,697 --> 00:44:59,964
So, were there other people

1339
00:44:59,966 --> 00:45:00,865
living in the woods?

1340
00:45:00,867 --> 00:45:02,066
There's a lot of them out

1341
00:45:02,068 --> 00:45:02,933
here, not just him.

1342
00:45:02,935 --> 00:45:04,101
There are a lot of them out

1343
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:08,572
there's something up there.

1344
00:45:08,574 --> 00:45:09,907
Look, maybe this is what

1345
00:45:09,909 --> 00:45:10,975
he's talking about.

1346
00:45:10,977 --> 00:45:12,443
There's a tunnel.

1347
00:45:12,445 --> 00:45:14,545
Goes all the way down here.

1348
00:45:14,547 --> 00:45:16,414
There's a city under a city.

1349
00:45:16,748 --> 00:45:18,182
Between the rats running around

1350
00:45:18,316 --> 00:45:19,616
and the sewer water that had

1351
00:45:19,751 --> 00:45:21,585
seeped in and...

1352
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,020
The dirty clothes and...

1353
00:45:23,155 --> 00:45:26,190
Racks of clothes, cots.

1354
00:45:26,525 --> 00:45:32,029
It's an old wheelchair. Wow. That's
pretty crazy. Obviously, men, women, and

1355
00:45:32,031 --> 00:45:34,265
children were living down there,

1356
00:45:34,267 --> 00:45:35,866
including Andre Rand.

1357
00:45:35,868 --> 00:45:38,001
Yeah, he had his own little

1358
00:45:38,003 --> 00:45:39,270
circle of friends there.

1359
00:45:39,272 --> 00:45:40,737
Look. All these have these

1360
00:45:40,739 --> 00:45:42,173
holes in it, and they're all

1361
00:45:42,175 --> 00:45:43,740
really clean for people to live

1362
00:45:43,742 --> 00:45:44,075
in.

1363
00:45:44,077 --> 00:45:45,109
Look at that floor.

1364
00:45:45,111 --> 00:45:46,510
That floor has been totally

1365
00:45:46,512 --> 00:45:47,711
wiped clean.

1366
00:45:48,046 --> 00:45:49,780
Andre Rand had this sort of

1367
00:45:49,914 --> 00:45:53,650
really low-class, white-trash

1368
00:45:53,785 --> 00:45:55,919
version of Jim Jones going.

1369
00:45:56,254 --> 00:46:01,492
Somehow, he managed to get people to
follow him. Who were they, though?

1370
00:46:01,494 --> 00:46:02,659
Well, he had some other

1371
00:46:02,661 --> 00:46:05,963
homeless.

1372
00:46:05,965 --> 00:46:08,499
Somebody's been staying here.

1373
00:46:08,501 --> 00:46:10,801
Cream of mushroom soup, old

1374
00:46:10,803 --> 00:46:11,635
dishes.

1375
00:46:11,637 --> 00:46:14,004
Flowers.

1376
00:46:14,006 --> 00:46:16,273
I remember one day, we found

1377
00:46:16,275 --> 00:46:18,576
a mattress with men's razors and

1378
00:46:18,578 --> 00:46:20,811
a toothbrush and men's clothing

1379
00:46:20,813 --> 00:46:23,013
with one pair of little girl's

1380
00:46:23,015 --> 00:46:24,081
panties.

1381
00:46:24,416 --> 00:46:26,883
I think that he was passing

1382
00:46:27,018 --> 00:46:29,186
the children around to his

1383
00:46:29,321 --> 00:46:31,788
friends, who were just as sick

1384
00:46:31,923 --> 00:46:32,990
as him.

1385
00:46:33,325 --> 00:46:38,462
So, do you think Rand was the only one
responsible? In Jennifer's killing?

1386
00:46:38,464 --> 00:46:39,930
No, I don't think he could

1387
00:46:39,932 --> 00:46:41,365
have done it all by himself.

1388
00:46:41,367 --> 00:46:42,933
They told us a lot of strange

1389
00:46:42,935 --> 00:46:43,501
stories.

1390
00:46:43,503 --> 00:46:44,901
They told us strange things

1391
00:46:44,903 --> 00:46:46,470
about Andre we could never prove

1392
00:46:46,472 --> 00:46:47,204
or disprove.

1393
00:46:47,206 --> 00:46:48,606
You're talking about having

1394
00:46:48,608 --> 00:46:49,706
sex with dead people.

1395
00:46:49,708 --> 00:46:51,142
There's a story, whether you

1396
00:46:51,144 --> 00:46:52,543
heard that one or not.

1397
00:46:52,545 --> 00:46:54,411
The thing that Andre used to

1398
00:46:54,413 --> 00:46:56,313
do is used to dig up dead bodies

1399
00:46:56,315 --> 00:46:59,350
in the cemetery and had sex with

1400
00:46:59,352 --> 00:47:01,585
these bodies.

1401
00:47:01,587 --> 00:47:03,187
Did you find it strange that

1402
00:47:03,189 --> 00:47:04,388
there was kind of this

1403
00:47:04,390 --> 00:47:05,856
underbelly to Staten Island?

1404
00:47:05,858 --> 00:47:07,424
I would've never guessed the

1405
00:47:07,426 --> 00:47:08,859
amount of weirdos living on

1406
00:47:08,861 --> 00:47:10,394
Staten Island that I ran into.

1407
00:47:10,396 --> 00:47:11,962
You know, why aren't people

1408
00:47:11,964 --> 00:47:16,233
aware of what's going on here?

1409
00:47:16,235 --> 00:47:18,101
To those who even remotely

1410
00:47:18,103 --> 00:47:19,736
knew Andre Rand, he was a

1411
00:47:19,738 --> 00:47:20,937
complete mystery.

1412
00:47:20,939 --> 00:47:22,973
The more we tried to learn about

1413
00:47:22,975 --> 00:47:24,608
him, the more bizarre the

1414
00:47:24,610 --> 00:47:27,077
stories became.

1415
00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:28,479
It was becoming harder for us

1416
00:47:28,481 --> 00:47:30,548
to tell the difference between

1417
00:47:30,550 --> 00:47:32,583
the facts...

1418
00:47:32,585 --> 00:47:34,451
And the folklore.

1419
00:47:51,352 --> 00:47:57,357
In an almost replay of Rand's first trial, the
prosecution is once again relying on eyewitness

1420
00:47:57,359 --> 00:48:02,229
testimony to prove its case.

1421
00:48:02,231 --> 00:48:04,331
Some of those who testified were

1422
00:48:04,333 --> 00:48:06,066
former alcoholics or drug

1423
00:48:06,068 --> 00:48:07,968
addicts who now say they can

1424
00:48:07,970 --> 00:48:10,070
recall the details of that night

1425
00:48:10,072 --> 00:48:16,910
over 20 years ago.

1426
00:48:16,912 --> 00:48:18,646
Burns changed his story back

1427
00:48:18,648 --> 00:48:20,247
and forth, but basically he's

1428
00:48:20,249 --> 00:48:20,914
drinking.

1429
00:48:20,916 --> 00:48:22,016
He sees Holly Ann.

1430
00:48:22,018 --> 00:48:23,684
He sees Rand talking to Holly.

1431
00:48:23,686 --> 00:48:25,318
He was the first witness that

1432
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,022
put Rand next to Holly Ann.

1433
00:48:28,024 --> 00:48:29,523
So in that 17 years, he never

1434
00:48:29,525 --> 00:48:30,223
came forward?

1435
00:48:30,225 --> 00:48:31,324
Never came forward.

1436
00:48:31,326 --> 00:48:32,660
That was the key part of our

1437
00:48:32,662 --> 00:48:33,093
cross.

1438
00:48:33,095 --> 00:48:33,827
That was key.

1439
00:48:33,829 --> 00:48:35,829
Never came forward.

1440
00:48:35,831 --> 00:48:37,264
Other witnesses could provide

1441
00:48:37,266 --> 00:48:38,632
only the vaguest of details in

1442
00:48:38,634 --> 00:48:39,466
their testimony.

1443
00:48:39,468 --> 00:48:41,001
What was he like?

1444
00:48:41,335 --> 00:48:43,103
Oh, you don't want to meet

1445
00:48:43,237 --> 00:48:43,603
him.

1446
00:48:43,738 --> 00:48:44,738
He was a creep.

1447
00:48:44,873 --> 00:48:45,405
Why?

1448
00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:47,440
'Cause he looked like he was

1449
00:48:47,575 --> 00:48:50,243
a killer.

1450
00:48:50,378 --> 00:48:51,578
I just said what I had to say,

1451
00:48:51,646 --> 00:48:52,179
and that's it.

1452
00:48:52,313 --> 00:48:53,393
Did you see anything the

1453
00:48:53,447 --> 00:48:54,214
night that Holly Ann

1454
00:48:54,348 --> 00:48:54,815
disappeared?

1455
00:48:54,949 --> 00:48:56,229
Yeah, I heard a scream, and I

1456
00:48:56,284 --> 00:48:58,285
heard her say, "let me go."

1457
00:48:58,419 --> 00:49:00,620
We had people that held

1458
00:49:00,755 --> 00:49:02,656
back information that we're

1459
00:49:02,791 --> 00:49:05,059
finding out today that were drug

1460
00:49:05,193 --> 00:49:06,794
addicts, dope dealers.

1461
00:49:07,128 --> 00:49:10,363
What did you need that you didn't have?
We needed to put her in the

1462
00:49:10,365 --> 00:49:10,698
car.

1463
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:11,865
To put her in the car?

1464
00:49:12,401 --> 00:49:13,533
And you had no actual

1465
00:49:13,535 --> 00:49:15,002
witnesses to put her in the car?

1466
00:49:15,004 --> 00:49:15,969
Not at that time.

1467
00:49:15,971 --> 00:49:17,337
He pulled up in his little,

1468
00:49:17,339 --> 00:49:18,772
green car, asked us if we wanted

1469
00:49:18,774 --> 00:49:19,774
candy.

1470
00:49:19,974 --> 00:49:20,974
She went to go get it.

1471
00:49:20,975 --> 00:49:22,255
She put her arm in the car as he

1472
00:49:22,310 --> 00:49:23,510
opened up the door, and that's

1473
00:49:23,611 --> 00:49:25,345
the last I've ever seen of her.

1474
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,683
In a surprising turn of events, Tanya
Goodson was called to the stand.

1475
00:49:29,685 --> 00:49:31,318
A playmate of Holly Ann's who

1476
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:32,686
was 6 at the time, Tanya

1477
00:49:32,688 --> 00:49:34,287
testified that she saw Rand,

1478
00:49:34,289 --> 00:49:35,789
wearing a mask and holding

1479
00:49:35,791 --> 00:49:37,457
candy, pull Holly Ann into his

1480
00:49:37,860 --> 00:49:39,459
so, when you said when he took

1481
00:49:39,461 --> 00:49:41,128
Holly Ann he was wearing a mask.

1482
00:49:41,130 --> 00:49:42,229
Tell me about that.

1483
00:49:42,231 --> 00:49:43,764
The mask I don't remember.

1484
00:49:43,766 --> 00:49:45,199
All I know is his face was

1485
00:49:45,201 --> 00:49:45,766
covered.

1486
00:49:45,768 --> 00:49:47,101
I couldn't see his face.

1487
00:49:47,103 --> 00:49:48,702
So it might not have been a

1488
00:49:48,704 --> 00:49:50,237
mask, just like maybe his hat

1489
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:51,239
pulled down or...

1490
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:52,606
No, his whole face was

1491
00:49:53,175 --> 00:49:54,674
but when he said, "do you

1492
00:49:54,676 --> 00:49:56,243
want candy?" Did he look that

1493
00:49:56,245 --> 00:49:57,644
bizarre, with the mask and

1494
00:49:57,646 --> 00:49:58,145
stuff?

1495
00:49:58,147 --> 00:49:59,412
He looked scary.

1496
00:49:59,414 --> 00:50:01,215
So, you knew Jennifer, and

1497
00:50:01,217 --> 00:50:02,482
you knew Holly Ann?

1498
00:50:02,484 --> 00:50:04,384
Yeah. I knew a bunch of them

1499
00:50:04,386 --> 00:50:05,819
that he had kidnapped.

1500
00:50:05,821 --> 00:50:07,654
Did you know Hank Gafforio?

1501
00:50:07,656 --> 00:50:09,289
That one I didn't know.

1502
00:50:09,291 --> 00:50:11,125
I knew Latisha.

1503
00:50:11,127 --> 00:50:11,691
Tiahease?

1504
00:50:11,693 --> 00:50:12,693
Tiahease Jackson?

1505
00:50:12,962 --> 00:50:14,061
All these people you knew

1506
00:50:14,063 --> 00:50:15,295
growing up on Staten Island, and

1507
00:50:15,297 --> 00:50:16,363
they all were disappearing.

1508
00:50:16,365 --> 00:50:18,766
What did you think?

1509
00:50:18,768 --> 00:50:20,400
I didn't think anything

1510
00:50:20,402 --> 00:50:21,935
because I was too young.

1511
00:50:21,937 --> 00:50:23,837
And now that I am older, I came

1512
00:50:23,839 --> 00:50:25,806
here to do what I got to do, and

1513
00:50:25,808 --> 00:50:28,375
I feel a whole lot better now.

1514
00:50:33,982 --> 00:50:37,017
Mr. Rand, what do you have to say
to the Staten Island community?

1515
00:51:06,915 --> 00:51:12,319
And that's 675 Tysens Lane.
This is it, yeah. 30 years ago.

1516
00:51:21,729 --> 00:51:23,563
Alice lived here with...

1517
00:51:23,698 --> 00:51:25,966
Her mother, who had multiple

1518
00:51:26,100 --> 00:51:28,268
sclerosis, was about 26 years

1519
00:51:28,402 --> 00:51:30,170
old at the time.

1520
00:51:30,504 --> 00:51:34,875
And, of course, there's Andre Rand, would
stand right there all the time, right where

1521
00:51:34,877 --> 00:51:35,675
that door is.

1522
00:51:35,677 --> 00:51:37,211
And he was a maintenance man

1523
00:51:37,646 --> 00:51:39,246
and where was the father at

1524
00:51:39,248 --> 00:51:39,913
the time?

1525
00:51:39,915 --> 00:51:41,181
They were separated.

1526
00:51:41,183 --> 00:51:42,749
They were separated for about

1527
00:51:42,751 --> 00:51:44,384
three years, and that's why the

1528
00:51:44,386 --> 00:51:45,853
detectives thought that the

1529
00:51:45,855 --> 00:51:47,321
father might have taken the

1530
00:51:47,323 --> 00:51:47,821
child.

1531
00:51:47,823 --> 00:51:49,356
And so they did not focus on

1532
00:51:49,358 --> 00:51:50,858
the child being kidnapped by

1533
00:51:50,860 --> 00:51:52,726
some deviate.

1534
00:52:02,003 --> 00:52:07,607
We just want closure, all of us.
Of course.

1535
00:52:07,609 --> 00:52:10,277
It's been so many years.

1536
00:52:10,279 --> 00:52:18,185
It's like everybody forgot.

1537
00:52:18,187 --> 00:52:19,853
He sent a picture of his

1538
00:52:19,855 --> 00:52:21,054
Rikers Island I.D.

1539
00:52:21,056 --> 00:52:22,856
"Dear Barbara, you know that I

1540
00:52:22,858 --> 00:52:24,457
cannot answer many of your

1541
00:52:24,459 --> 00:52:25,926
questions at this time.

1542
00:52:25,928 --> 00:52:27,794
The documentary film you put so

1543
00:52:27,796 --> 00:52:29,729
much faith into will never stand

1544
00:52:29,731 --> 00:52:31,531
up to the exculpatory evidence

1545
00:52:31,533 --> 00:52:32,366
in my book.

1546
00:52:32,368 --> 00:52:34,234
You might mean well, but later,

1547
00:52:34,236 --> 00:52:36,036
other moviemakers will pick up

1548
00:52:36,038 --> 00:52:37,304
where you left off.

1549
00:52:37,306 --> 00:52:39,206
As long as I'm in prison, I will

1550
00:52:39,208 --> 00:52:41,041
give the moviemakers reason to

1551
00:52:41,043 --> 00:52:42,809
portray me as an evil person.

1552
00:52:42,811 --> 00:52:44,311
You see, evilness sells.

1553
00:52:44,313 --> 00:52:46,213
That's the name of their game."

1554
00:52:46,215 --> 00:52:47,447
Rand was right.

1555
00:52:47,449 --> 00:52:49,249
The evil, not hard facts, was

1556
00:52:49,251 --> 00:52:50,550
pushing this trial.

1557
00:52:50,552 --> 00:52:52,119
But then the coincidences

1558
00:52:52,121 --> 00:52:53,453
couldn't be ignored.

1559
00:52:53,455 --> 00:52:55,022
We knew we had to get an

1560
00:52:55,024 --> 00:52:56,990
interview, but now, in exchange,

1561
00:52:56,992 --> 00:52:58,625
Rand was pushing for us to

1562
00:52:58,627 --> 00:53:00,894
proclaim his innocence.

1563
00:53:00,896 --> 00:53:02,762
"Barbara, type me an exact list

1564
00:53:02,764 --> 00:53:04,664
of the questions or discussions

1565
00:53:04,666 --> 00:53:06,433
you're going to ask me during

1566
00:53:06,435 --> 00:53:10,770
your documentary."

1567
00:53:10,772 --> 00:53:12,205
This is, I think, the route

1568
00:53:12,207 --> 00:53:15,409
that he took Holly Ann on.

1569
00:53:15,743 --> 00:53:17,744
All the clues led us right along

1570
00:53:17,878 --> 00:53:19,112
here, right up into

1571
00:53:19,247 --> 00:53:20,314
baron Hirsch.

1572
00:53:20,648 --> 00:53:27,587
So he had a campsite in here? We think
it was his. She could be in one of these

1573
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:28,521
graves over here.

1574
00:53:28,523 --> 00:53:29,957
If he had a bar or something,

1575
00:53:29,959 --> 00:53:31,491
he could've moved a lid over,

1576
00:53:31,493 --> 00:53:32,926
put the body in there with an

1577
00:53:32,928 --> 00:53:34,227
older body, and covered it

1578
00:53:34,229 --> 00:53:35,795
back up again, and nobody'd ever

1579
00:53:35,797 --> 00:53:36,396
find her.

1580
00:53:36,398 --> 00:53:37,965
'Cause a lot of these are loose.

1581
00:53:38,467 --> 00:53:39,699
There's a body down below

1582
00:53:40,102 --> 00:53:41,401
I don't know how deep they bury

1583
00:53:43,339 --> 00:53:45,072
these are all children.

1584
00:53:45,074 --> 00:53:47,007
At first, we were thinking

1585
00:53:47,009 --> 00:53:48,976
maybe he sold them to use for

1586
00:53:48,978 --> 00:53:51,044
cult activities or whatever, you

1587
00:53:51,613 --> 00:53:52,446
really?

1588
00:53:52,448 --> 00:53:54,147
You think it's definitely

1589
00:53:54,149 --> 00:53:55,048
legitimate?

1590
00:53:55,050 --> 00:53:56,450
I wouldn't doubt it.

1591
00:53:56,452 --> 00:53:58,285
I mean, what made you believe

1592
00:53:58,287 --> 00:53:59,686
that that was going on?

1593
00:53:59,688 --> 00:54:01,455
Well, we had the son of Sam

1594
00:54:01,457 --> 00:54:02,689
out there, you know?

1595
00:54:02,691 --> 00:54:04,391
That goes into cults in a big

1596
00:54:04,393 --> 00:54:04,757
way.

1597
00:54:04,759 --> 00:54:06,193
I guess, only because that's

1598
00:54:06,195 --> 00:54:07,694
something that people thought of

1599
00:54:07,696 --> 00:54:08,862
back then, 20 years ago.

1600
00:54:08,864 --> 00:54:09,729
Maybe not today.

1601
00:54:09,731 --> 00:54:11,164
They're still thinking about

1602
00:54:11,166 --> 00:54:13,033
it.

1603
00:54:22,410 --> 00:54:24,644
Andre was into the devil's

1604
00:54:24,778 --> 00:54:26,646
cult, and being a native

1605
00:54:26,780 --> 00:54:28,715
Staten Islander, I really

1606
00:54:28,849 --> 00:54:33,320
couldn't believe how much...

1607
00:54:33,454 --> 00:54:35,255
How big it is on Staten Island.

1608
00:54:35,589 --> 00:54:40,894
We went to one establishment where the basement
was set up like... I guess what they'd

1609
00:54:40,896 --> 00:54:42,829
call the church, and they used

1610
00:54:42,831 --> 00:54:44,597
to hold their ceremonies on

1611
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:45,732
actually the old

1612
00:54:45,734 --> 00:54:47,334
willowbrook state school

1613
00:54:47,336 --> 00:54:48,035
grounds.

1614
00:54:48,037 --> 00:54:49,802
So you don't think it was

1615
00:54:49,804 --> 00:54:50,337
kids?

1616
00:54:50,339 --> 00:54:51,771
Oh, definitely not.

1617
00:54:51,773 --> 00:54:52,839
Definitely not.

1618
00:54:52,841 --> 00:54:54,841
I think it was adults that would

1619
00:54:54,843 --> 00:54:56,276
hold these ceremonies.

1620
00:54:56,278 --> 00:54:58,145
And I think Andre Rand and his

1621
00:54:58,147 --> 00:54:59,546
crew were part of it.

1622
00:54:59,548 --> 00:55:01,415
Whether initiated or not, they

1623
00:55:01,417 --> 00:55:02,549
were part of it.

1624
00:55:02,551 --> 00:55:04,451
It's hard for us to believe,

1625
00:55:04,453 --> 00:55:06,119
but if you had to convince

1626
00:55:06,121 --> 00:55:08,055
somebody that it was real, what

1627
00:55:08,057 --> 00:55:10,290
would you say?

1628
00:55:10,292 --> 00:55:13,093
I would say is get a couple

1629
00:55:13,095 --> 00:55:15,828
of his friends, sit down, and

1630
00:55:15,830 --> 00:55:17,297
talk to them.

1631
00:55:17,299 --> 00:55:20,267
And by them just talking, you'll

1632
00:55:20,269 --> 00:55:21,601
realize how bad it was.

1633
00:55:21,603 --> 00:55:23,203
One time, I was invited to

1634
00:55:23,205 --> 00:55:24,904
the precinct to talk to them as

1635
00:55:24,906 --> 00:55:26,639
they recorded me, and they start

1636
00:55:26,641 --> 00:55:27,907
telling me about devil

1637
00:55:27,909 --> 00:55:29,509
worshipping on Staten Island,

1638
00:55:29,511 --> 00:55:31,278
that maybe he was a part of this

1639
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:31,744
cult.

1640
00:55:31,746 --> 00:55:33,046
And I didn't believe it.

1641
00:55:33,048 --> 00:55:34,681
What did they think was going

1642
00:55:34,683 --> 00:55:35,048
on?

1643
00:55:35,050 --> 00:55:36,483
That maybe some of these

1644
00:55:36,485 --> 00:55:38,085
devil worshippers had something

1645
00:55:38,087 --> 00:55:39,652
to do with the kids vanishing.

1646
00:55:39,654 --> 00:55:41,020
You can paint parallels to

1647
00:55:41,022 --> 00:55:42,556
anything and say, "oh, yeah."

1648
00:55:42,558 --> 00:55:45,525
You know, I can take a picture

1649
00:55:45,527 --> 00:55:47,194
of anybody.

1650
00:55:47,196 --> 00:55:47,994
Okay?

1651
00:55:47,996 --> 00:55:50,730
And I can say, "this man is a

1652
00:55:50,732 --> 00:55:53,967
mass murderer."

1653
00:55:53,969 --> 00:55:56,035
And they say, "yeah, I can tell!

1654
00:55:56,037 --> 00:55:56,970
I can tell."

1655
00:55:56,972 --> 00:55:59,339
I could say, "this man rescued

1656
00:55:59,341 --> 00:56:01,374
six people from a burning

1657
00:56:01,376 --> 00:56:02,409
building."

1658
00:56:02,411 --> 00:56:05,278
"I can tell he's a good man."

1659
00:56:22,213 --> 00:56:27,083
In addition to the police investigation, other
evidence of cult activity had been mailed

1660
00:56:27,085 --> 00:56:28,351
to Jennifer's family.

1661
00:56:28,353 --> 00:56:30,187
A mysterious letter claimed that

1662
00:56:30,189 --> 00:56:32,021
Rand had been supplying children

1663
00:56:32,023 --> 00:56:33,690
to the church of the process,

1664
00:56:33,692 --> 00:56:34,857
the same cult that

1665
00:56:34,859 --> 00:56:36,593
David Berkowitz alleged helped

1666
00:56:36,595 --> 00:56:38,061
him commit the son of Sam

1667
00:56:38,063 --> 00:56:38,728
murders.

1668
00:56:38,730 --> 00:56:40,597
This anonymous letter was traced

1669
00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:42,499
back to Veronica Lueken, a local

1670
00:56:42,501 --> 00:56:44,167
woman with her own religious

1671
00:56:44,169 --> 00:56:46,503
following.

1672
00:56:46,505 --> 00:56:48,104
So basically this group right

1673
00:56:48,106 --> 00:56:49,639
down over here, you know, they

1674
00:56:49,641 --> 00:56:50,907
wrote these letters from

1675
00:56:50,909 --> 00:56:52,242
10/4/87, which is a couple

1676
00:56:52,244 --> 00:56:53,376
months after Jennifer

1677
00:56:53,978 --> 00:56:55,178
"I thought I'd write you this

1678
00:56:55,180 --> 00:56:56,413
note to try and enlighten you,

1679
00:56:56,415 --> 00:56:57,581
at the same time reassure you

1680
00:56:57,583 --> 00:56:58,848
about the crimes that are being

1681
00:56:58,850 --> 00:56:59,882
committed on the Island.

1682
00:56:59,884 --> 00:57:01,050
Well, I did a little checking

1683
00:57:01,052 --> 00:57:02,319
on the recent disappearances and

1684
00:57:02,321 --> 00:57:03,520
murders of these kids, and it

1685
00:57:03,522 --> 00:57:04,654
looks like some of them were

1686
00:57:04,656 --> 00:57:05,788
victims of what is called a

1687
00:57:05,790 --> 00:57:07,056
satanic black mass.

1688
00:57:07,058 --> 00:57:08,558
Andre Rand did not kill

1689
00:57:09,328 --> 00:57:11,027
all he did was bring her to

1690
00:57:11,029 --> 00:57:11,828
the coven.

1691
00:57:11,830 --> 00:57:13,597
Too bad that they covered it

1692
00:57:13,599 --> 00:57:14,931
up, but who wants to admit that

1693
00:57:14,933 --> 00:57:16,299
Staten Island is literally going

1694
00:57:16,301 --> 00:57:16,799
to hell?

1695
00:57:16,801 --> 00:57:17,900
It is a picnic ground for

1696
00:57:18,270 --> 00:57:19,502
there are bodies buried that

1697
00:57:19,504 --> 00:57:21,304
will never be found."

1698
00:57:21,306 --> 00:57:22,739
Hail Mary, full of grace, the

1699
00:57:22,741 --> 00:57:23,640
lord is with thee.

1700
00:57:23,642 --> 00:57:25,074
Blessed are thou amongst women,

1701
00:57:25,076 --> 00:57:26,476
and blessed is the fruit of thy

1702
00:57:26,478 --> 00:57:27,176
womb, Jesus."

1703
00:57:27,178 --> 00:57:28,545
So, can we speak to you for

1704
00:57:28,547 --> 00:57:29,178
one minute?

1705
00:57:29,180 --> 00:57:30,313
Can you give me, like, a

1706
00:57:30,315 --> 00:57:31,715
summation of what she said back

1707
00:57:31,717 --> 00:57:32,749
then?

1708
00:57:39,624 --> 00:57:40,864
Do you believe it actually goes

1709
00:57:45,263 --> 00:57:46,543
so, I think it would be great if

1710
00:57:46,597 --> 00:57:47,597
you could speak for your

1711
00:57:47,665 --> 00:57:49,499
organization.

1712
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:50,900
'Cause you're worried about

1713
00:57:51,034 --> 00:57:52,034
them?

1714
00:58:00,878 --> 00:58:02,345
Around us?

1715
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,983
...the lord is with thee. This is the
transcription from an interview that

1716
00:58:06,985 --> 00:58:08,485
detectives in 1988 did with

1717
00:58:08,487 --> 00:58:10,119
Andre Rand while he was up in

1718
00:58:10,121 --> 00:58:11,688
sing sing.

1719
00:58:11,690 --> 00:58:13,856
For the first...

1720
00:58:13,858 --> 00:58:16,726
Half an hour, they discuss devil

1721
00:58:16,728 --> 00:58:17,494
worshipping.

1722
00:58:17,496 --> 00:58:19,162
"So you were camping out when he

1723
00:58:19,164 --> 00:58:20,630
told you that there might be

1724
00:58:20,632 --> 00:58:21,931
satanic goings-on in the

1725
00:58:21,933 --> 00:58:22,933
willowbrook area?

1726
00:58:22,934 --> 00:58:24,668
Now it's 1987, and you hear

1727
00:58:24,670 --> 00:58:26,002
about this cult operating around

1728
00:58:26,004 --> 00:58:27,170
the same neighborhood, human

1729
00:58:27,172 --> 00:58:27,771
sacrifices.

1730
00:58:27,773 --> 00:58:28,905
Didn't you say to yourself,

1731
00:58:28,907 --> 00:58:30,106
'maybe they're the ones that

1732
00:58:30,108 --> 00:58:31,207
snatched that little girl?'

1733
00:58:31,209 --> 00:58:32,909
did that occur to you?"

1734
00:58:33,243 --> 00:58:34,377
So, when you went up to

1735
00:58:34,512 --> 00:58:36,012
sing sing in '98, you discussed

1736
00:58:36,146 --> 00:58:37,580
with him numerous things about

1737
00:58:37,715 --> 00:58:38,715
devil worshipping?

1738
00:58:40,551 --> 00:58:47,156
Well... It was something
that was looked into.

1739
00:58:47,158 --> 00:58:49,659
But, like I said, we didn't find

1740
00:58:49,661 --> 00:58:54,096
that Andre was into that kind of

1741
00:58:54,098 --> 00:58:54,564
crowd.

1742
00:58:54,566 --> 00:58:56,065
There was something called

1743
00:58:56,067 --> 00:58:57,667
the church of the process years

1744
00:58:57,669 --> 00:58:59,001
ago that was very strongly

1745
00:58:59,003 --> 00:59:00,637
linked to satanic cults, and the

1746
00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:02,171
founder of that church happens

1747
00:59:02,173 --> 00:59:03,506
to live on Staten Island.

1748
00:59:04,376 --> 00:59:05,908
And has lived there for a long

1749
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:06,343
time.

1750
00:59:06,345 --> 00:59:07,844
And he's lived there for a

1751
00:59:07,846 --> 00:59:09,679
long time.

1752
00:59:09,681 --> 00:59:11,147
Yeah. I mean, is he just not

1753
00:59:11,149 --> 00:59:11,614
active?

1754
00:59:11,616 --> 00:59:12,716
What's that all about?

1755
00:59:12,718 --> 00:59:13,550
No, he's not.

1756
00:59:13,552 --> 00:59:14,818
Supposedly he's not active

1757
00:59:14,820 --> 00:59:15,318
anymore.

1758
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:16,786
Does he deny it, or is he...

1759
00:59:16,788 --> 00:59:21,290
I've never interviewed him.

1760
00:59:21,292 --> 00:59:22,792
Is there satanic cults, people

1761
00:59:22,794 --> 00:59:23,626
that practice?

1762
00:59:23,628 --> 00:59:26,128
Of course there is.

1763
00:59:26,130 --> 00:59:27,597
But it's something that's kept

1764
00:59:27,599 --> 00:59:28,264
very quiet.

1765
00:59:28,266 --> 00:59:31,501
It's something that not many

1766
00:59:31,503 --> 00:59:34,804
departments investigate.

1767
00:59:34,806 --> 00:59:36,773
Satanic worship is satanic

1768
00:59:36,775 --> 00:59:37,574
worshippers.

1769
00:59:37,576 --> 00:59:39,609
It's like being a catholic.

1770
00:59:39,611 --> 00:59:41,611
You believe in god, and you

1771
00:59:41,613 --> 00:59:43,012
believe in Jesus.

1772
00:59:43,014 --> 00:59:45,749
They believe in Satan.

1773
00:59:45,751 --> 00:59:47,350
So, are you in houses, or are

1774
00:59:47,352 --> 00:59:48,284
you in the woods?

1775
00:59:48,286 --> 00:59:49,619
You could be in houses.

1776
00:59:49,621 --> 00:59:50,953
You could be in the woods.

1777
00:59:50,955 --> 00:59:52,455
Are you in abandoned mental

1778
00:59:52,457 --> 00:59:53,222
institutions?

1779
00:59:53,224 --> 00:59:56,092
You could use them.

1780
00:59:56,094 --> 00:59:58,828
And do they use kids?

1781
00:59:58,830 --> 01:00:00,697
I'd rather not answer that.

1782
01:00:07,938 --> 01:00:18,247
Basically, this is the area known as the farm
colony, and this is where they said a lot of

1783
01:00:18,249 --> 01:00:19,749
devil worshipping and stuff was

1784
01:00:30,961 --> 01:00:34,130
I'm not saying that there's anything here.
Maybe it's people's

1785
01:00:34,132 --> 01:00:34,864
imaginations.

1786
01:00:34,866 --> 01:00:36,299
I mean, it's scary because

1787
01:00:36,301 --> 01:00:37,834
you don't know who can be here.

1788
01:00:37,836 --> 01:00:38,868
But there's no devil

1789
01:00:39,604 --> 01:00:41,170
there are some crosses on the

1790
01:00:41,172 --> 01:00:42,371
building across the way.

1791
01:00:42,373 --> 01:00:43,139
We should go.

1792
01:00:43,141 --> 01:00:47,243
Let's just check it out.

1793
01:00:47,245 --> 01:00:49,712
Building "a."

1794
01:00:49,714 --> 01:00:50,747
Barb, you want to go inside?

1795
01:00:50,749 --> 01:00:51,414
Let's go inside.

1796
01:00:51,416 --> 01:00:52,449
No, I'm not going inside.

1797
01:00:52,451 --> 01:00:53,416
So, we're not gonna see

1798
01:00:53,418 --> 01:00:54,551
anything if we don't go inside.

1799
01:00:54,553 --> 01:00:55,218
I'm not. Wait.

1800
01:00:55,220 --> 01:00:56,052
I'm not going inside.

1801
01:00:56,054 --> 01:00:57,120
We already went inside during

1802
01:00:57,122 --> 01:00:58,122
the day.

1803
01:00:59,758 --> 01:01:00,590
What are you, scared?

1804
01:01:00,592 --> 01:01:01,592
We don't even know...

1805
01:01:04,396 --> 01:01:06,796
I'm going inside.

1806
01:01:06,798 --> 01:01:08,665
What the fuck am<i> I</i> gonna do?

1807
01:01:18,476 --> 01:01:23,079
Oh, my god!
Sorry. I dropped the light.

1808
01:01:23,081 --> 01:01:24,314
I dropped the light.

1809
01:01:24,316 --> 01:01:25,048
I'm sorry.

1810
01:01:25,050 --> 01:01:31,988
It was an accident.

1811
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:32,789
You know what?

1812
01:01:32,791 --> 01:01:35,592
I don't want to stay.

1813
01:01:35,594 --> 01:01:37,960
Shh, shh, shh!

1814
01:01:37,962 --> 01:01:38,662
What?

1815
01:01:38,664 --> 01:01:39,929
You hear something?

1816
01:01:42,767 --> 01:01:47,737
I saw something over there.

1817
01:01:47,739 --> 01:01:49,606
People are coming.

1818
01:02:00,851 --> 01:02:04,821
So, why are you here tonight?

1819
01:02:04,823 --> 01:02:05,955
You hear stories.

1820
01:02:05,957 --> 01:02:07,624
We just wanted to see what it's

1821
01:02:07,626 --> 01:02:08,291
about, I guess.

1822
01:02:08,293 --> 01:02:09,426
What do you guys expect to

1823
01:02:09,428 --> 01:02:10,059
find out here?

1824
01:02:10,061 --> 01:02:11,061
People who died here...

1825
01:02:11,062 --> 01:02:12,095
Supposed to be the ghosts.

1826
01:02:12,097 --> 01:02:13,230
Searching through the farm

1827
01:02:13,232 --> 01:02:15,432
colony, all we found were kids

1828
01:02:15,434 --> 01:02:17,534
scaring each other out in the

1829
01:02:17,536 --> 01:02:19,603
woods, just like we had done

1830
01:02:19,605 --> 01:02:20,237
20 years ago.

1831
01:02:20,239 --> 01:02:21,571
Do you believe that there are

1832
01:02:21,573 --> 01:02:22,805
devil worshippers in the woods

1833
01:02:22,807 --> 01:02:23,172
here?

1834
01:02:23,174 --> 01:02:24,006
Oh, yeah. I do.

1835
01:02:24,008 --> 01:02:25,308
Somebody said they were doing

1836
01:02:25,310 --> 01:02:26,643
freaky experiments and crap like

1837
01:02:27,011 --> 01:02:28,211
what makes us all come out

1838
01:02:28,580 --> 01:02:29,713
what makes us believe these

1839
01:02:29,715 --> 01:02:30,179
stories?

1840
01:02:30,181 --> 01:02:31,348
Could there be some truth to

1841
01:02:31,350 --> 01:02:31,781
it all?

1842
01:02:31,783 --> 01:02:32,849
You guys ever hear of any

1843
01:02:32,851 --> 01:02:34,183
missing kids from Staten Island?

1844
01:02:34,620 --> 01:02:35,852
Y'all be hearing missing kids?

1845
01:02:35,854 --> 01:02:36,854
They found one girl,

1846
01:02:36,855 --> 01:02:38,054
Jennifer Schweiger, buried on

1847
01:02:38,056 --> 01:02:38,888
the grounds of the

1848
01:02:38,890 --> 01:02:40,189
willowbrook mental institution.

1849
01:02:40,792 --> 01:02:41,858
I remember my mom saying

1850
01:02:41,860 --> 01:02:42,792
something about that.

1851
01:02:42,794 --> 01:02:44,794
Wasn't she slow?

1852
01:02:44,796 --> 01:02:46,129
Maybe the reality that a

1853
01:02:46,131 --> 01:02:48,365
person can kill a child is too

1854
01:02:48,367 --> 01:02:51,534
much for some of us to bear, and

1855
01:02:51,536 --> 01:02:52,902
so instead we create our own

1856
01:02:52,904 --> 01:02:54,604
monsters.

1857
01:03:05,316 --> 01:03:09,486
He's not gonna testify, I'm very disappointed
to say. It seemed like he was wanting

1858
01:03:09,488 --> 01:03:10,820
to divulge information, of

1859
01:03:10,822 --> 01:03:12,355
course not necessarily confess

1860
01:03:12,357 --> 01:03:14,157
to anything, but certainly he

1861
01:03:14,159 --> 01:03:16,058
was very antsy, and that seemed

1862
01:03:16,060 --> 01:03:17,894
like a good sign to people who

1863
01:03:17,896 --> 01:03:19,429
might like to try to get

1864
01:03:19,431 --> 01:03:21,631
information out of him.

1865
01:03:21,633 --> 01:03:22,965
Are you upset he didn't take

1866
01:03:22,967 --> 01:03:24,167
the stand?

1867
01:03:24,502 --> 01:03:25,702
It would've been interesting,

1868
01:03:25,703 --> 01:03:26,736
because we've never even heard

1869
01:03:26,870 --> 01:03:28,438
him speak.

1870
01:03:28,773 --> 01:03:34,377
So it's really hard to have feelings
about a person you really don't know.

1871
01:03:34,379 --> 01:03:35,679
You don't even know what they

1872
01:03:35,681 --> 01:03:36,279
sound like.

1873
01:03:36,281 --> 01:03:37,681
How come you didn't put Andre

1874
01:03:37,683 --> 01:03:38,548
on the stand?

1875
01:03:38,550 --> 01:03:40,350
Andre didn't have too much to

1876
01:03:40,352 --> 01:03:44,821
add, and he has a criminal

1877
01:03:44,823 --> 01:03:45,288
record.

1878
01:03:45,290 --> 01:03:46,489
And a criminal record would

1879
01:03:46,491 --> 01:03:50,827
distract from this case.

1880
01:03:50,829 --> 01:03:52,261
The jury will be handed the

1881
01:03:52,263 --> 01:03:53,663
case Monday, and if convicted,

1882
01:03:53,665 --> 01:03:55,164
Rand could face an additional 25

1883
01:03:55,166 --> 01:03:56,466
years to life on top of the

1884
01:03:56,468 --> 01:03:57,900
sentence he's already serving.

1885
01:03:57,902 --> 01:03:58,802
On Staten Island,

1886
01:03:58,804 --> 01:04:02,339
Amanda Farinacci, ny1.

1887
01:04:02,341 --> 01:04:11,113
Good?

1888
01:04:11,115 --> 01:04:12,649
Rand had been upset about not

1889
01:04:12,651 --> 01:04:14,116
taking the stand and wanted the

1890
01:04:14,118 --> 01:04:15,618
chance to defend himself.

1891
01:04:15,620 --> 01:04:17,454
After months of letter-writing,

1892
01:04:17,456 --> 01:04:19,322
he finally decided to give us an

1893
01:04:20,592 --> 01:04:23,360
it was time to confront Rand

1894
01:04:23,362 --> 01:04:26,463
face-to-face to get some answers

1895
01:04:26,465 --> 01:04:28,331
once and for all.

1896
01:04:59,697 --> 01:05:06,035
He did the same thing to me. 'Cause after
that initial interview that we had with him,

1897
01:05:06,037 --> 01:05:07,737
we had written to him.

1898
01:05:07,739 --> 01:05:11,240
We went back up, and he said,

1899
01:05:11,242 --> 01:05:11,841
"sure, no problem.

1900
01:05:11,843 --> 01:05:12,341
Come back up.

1901
01:05:12,343 --> 01:05:12,909
We'll talk again.

1902
01:05:12,911 --> 01:05:14,611
But you'll come to my house.

1903
01:05:16,414 --> 01:05:17,414
You can't move me.

1904
01:05:17,481 --> 01:05:18,948
I won't talk to you unless you

1905
01:05:19,082 --> 01:05:21,684
speak to me in my home."

1906
01:05:22,019 --> 01:05:27,957
And we went up there, and he told the
correction people, "I changed my mind.

1907
01:05:27,959 --> 01:05:29,826
I don't want to talk to him."

1908
01:05:33,798 --> 01:05:45,141
He wouldn't talk to us, so... We're gonna
go back home. It's a game for him.

1909
01:05:45,143 --> 01:05:47,444
To me, he's a very smart man.

1910
01:05:47,446 --> 01:05:49,879
He knew how to commit the crime

1911
01:05:49,881 --> 01:05:51,514
and not get caught.

1912
01:05:51,516 --> 01:05:54,651
And like he said to me, "why

1913
01:05:54,653 --> 01:05:56,486
is it that you guys don't find

1914
01:05:56,488 --> 01:05:59,923
the real killer?"

1915
01:05:59,925 --> 01:06:01,324
"It is your sins that make

1916
01:06:01,326 --> 01:06:02,692
him hide his face so that he

1917
01:06:02,694 --> 01:06:03,993
will not hear you, for your

1918
01:06:03,995 --> 01:06:05,394
hands are stained with blood,

1919
01:06:05,396 --> 01:06:06,796
your fingers with guilt, your

1920
01:06:06,798 --> 01:06:08,264
lips speak falsehoods, and your

1921
01:06:08,266 --> 01:06:11,801
tongue utters deceit."

1922
01:06:11,803 --> 01:06:13,803
Josh and I had decided to hold

1923
01:06:13,805 --> 01:06:15,839
off on answering Rand after his

1924
01:06:15,841 --> 01:06:17,273
most recent letters.

1925
01:06:17,275 --> 01:06:19,075
They were becoming more and

1926
01:06:19,077 --> 01:06:20,109
more bizarre.

1927
01:06:20,111 --> 01:06:21,978
His handwriting had changed,

1928
01:06:21,980 --> 01:06:23,513
and he was now quoting

1929
01:06:23,515 --> 01:06:24,280
scripture.

1930
01:06:24,282 --> 01:06:25,949
"No one brings suit justly.

1931
01:06:25,951 --> 01:06:27,484
No one pleads truthfully.

1932
01:06:27,486 --> 01:06:29,151
They trust in emptiness and

1933
01:06:29,153 --> 01:06:29,919
tell lies.

1934
01:06:29,921 --> 01:06:31,521
They conceive mischief and

1935
01:06:31,523 --> 01:06:32,789
bring forth malice.

1936
01:06:32,791 --> 01:06:34,423
They hatch adders' eggs and

1937
01:06:34,425 --> 01:06:35,725
weave spiders' webs.

1938
01:06:35,727 --> 01:06:37,426
Whoever eats their eggs will

1939
01:06:37,428 --> 01:06:37,894
die.

1940
01:06:37,896 --> 01:06:39,662
If one of them is pressed, it

1941
01:06:39,664 --> 01:06:41,330
will hatch as a viper."

1942
01:06:41,332 --> 01:06:43,265
"My stand on deviate sex

1943
01:06:43,267 --> 01:06:44,066
beliefs.

1944
01:06:44,068 --> 01:06:46,268
Children are emotionally wasted,

1945
01:06:46,270 --> 01:06:48,304
and the land is littered with

1946
01:06:48,306 --> 01:06:49,472
broken lives."

1947
01:06:49,474 --> 01:06:51,674
Why's he keep focusing on women?

1948
01:06:51,676 --> 01:06:53,843
Maybe he saw things as a child?

1949
01:06:53,845 --> 01:06:56,012
I mean, nobody really knows his

1950
01:06:56,014 --> 01:06:56,913
early childhood.

1951
01:06:56,915 --> 01:06:58,347
In some of the letters to

1952
01:06:58,349 --> 01:06:59,883
you... we have them... it talks

1953
01:06:59,885 --> 01:07:00,750
about her case.

1954
01:07:00,752 --> 01:07:02,719
Father died in 1958.

1955
01:07:02,721 --> 01:07:03,721
When he was 14.

1956
01:07:04,355 --> 01:07:05,254
His mother was in

1957
01:07:05,256 --> 01:07:06,523
pilgrim state, from what I was

1958
01:07:06,525 --> 01:07:10,660
told.

1959
01:07:10,662 --> 01:07:12,495
Pilgrim state is built exactly

1960
01:07:12,497 --> 01:07:14,196
to the specs of willowbrook.

1961
01:07:14,198 --> 01:07:16,132
Willowbrook and pilgrim state...

1962
01:07:16,134 --> 01:07:17,700
Same type of facility.

1963
01:07:17,702 --> 01:07:19,435
...same type of facility,

1964
01:07:19,437 --> 01:07:21,103
same type of building, same

1965
01:07:21,105 --> 01:07:22,772
tunnel system, same kitchen

1966
01:07:22,774 --> 01:07:25,542
systems.

1967
01:07:25,544 --> 01:07:27,176
Rand writes in his letters

1968
01:07:27,178 --> 01:07:28,945
that his mother was committed to

1969
01:07:28,947 --> 01:07:30,312
pilgrim state asylum in

1970
01:07:30,314 --> 01:07:31,113
long Island.

1971
01:07:31,115 --> 01:07:32,749
As a teenager, he would often

1972
01:07:32,751 --> 01:07:35,184
go there to visit.

1973
01:07:35,186 --> 01:07:37,053
With a population that once

1974
01:07:37,055 --> 01:07:39,221
topped 13,000, pilgrim state was

1975
01:07:39,223 --> 01:07:41,090
at times the largest mental

1976
01:07:41,092 --> 01:07:43,159
institution in the world, much

1977
01:07:43,161 --> 01:07:46,663
like willowbrook.

1978
01:07:46,665 --> 01:07:48,330
This new connection to Rand's

1979
01:07:48,332 --> 01:07:50,132
family was something we couldn't

1980
01:07:50,134 --> 01:07:50,733
ignore.

1981
01:07:50,735 --> 01:07:52,201
We tried several times to

1982
01:07:52,203 --> 01:07:53,903
contact a woman who we thought

1983
01:07:53,905 --> 01:07:55,038
was Rand's sister.

1984
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:56,472
Excuse me.

1985
01:07:56,474 --> 01:07:58,007
We're doing a documentary, and

1986
01:07:58,009 --> 01:07:59,308
we wanted to speak to you

1987
01:07:59,310 --> 01:08:00,677
about... I think it's your

1988
01:08:00,679 --> 01:08:02,144
brother, Andre Rand.

1989
01:08:06,116 --> 01:08:07,116
Right.

1990
01:08:11,555 --> 01:08:12,789
Was there something that

1991
01:08:12,923 --> 01:08:14,423
happened in his life that you

1992
01:08:14,558 --> 01:08:16,025
think kind of set him on this

1993
01:08:16,159 --> 01:08:17,226
wrong path?

1994
01:08:30,107 --> 01:08:31,147
We're not trying to get

1995
01:08:31,274 --> 01:08:32,514
anybody to confess to anything.

1996
01:08:32,610 --> 01:08:33,610
No, it's just a "why?"

1997
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:37,814
Yeah, try to understand why.

1998
01:08:58,268 --> 01:09:01,504
Received Friday, June 20th.

1999
01:09:29,133 --> 01:09:30,399
Do you still feel like they

2000
01:09:30,534 --> 01:09:31,734
didn't do enough at the time?

2001
01:09:31,869 --> 01:09:33,169
I don't feel... I think they

2002
01:09:33,303 --> 01:09:34,603
all worked, but I don't feel it

2003
01:09:34,738 --> 01:09:36,773
was coordinated properly.

2004
01:09:37,107 --> 01:09:40,877
I mean, there's so many things that are
coming out that I didn't know about.

2005
01:09:40,879 --> 01:09:42,444
And here they are, and had they

2006
01:09:42,446 --> 01:09:44,013
been followed up, I wouldn't be

2007
01:09:44,015 --> 01:09:44,714
here today.

2008
01:09:44,716 --> 01:09:46,115
It would've been settled 23

2009
01:09:46,785 --> 01:09:48,184
you think he's gonna get

2010
01:09:48,186 --> 01:09:48,851
convicted?

2011
01:09:48,853 --> 01:09:50,186
Not with this evidence,

2012
01:09:50,188 --> 01:09:51,554
because it's not credible.

2013
01:09:51,556 --> 01:09:53,255
You've got 12 people, and

2014
01:09:53,257 --> 01:09:54,924
some people just could get hung

2015
01:09:54,926 --> 01:09:56,625
up on something and believe that

2016
01:09:56,627 --> 01:09:57,727
he's guilty or not.

2017
01:09:57,729 --> 01:09:59,361
The question of innocence or

2018
01:09:59,363 --> 01:10:01,064
guilt is more fundamental in one

2019
01:10:01,532 --> 01:10:03,432
this guy has a track record.

2020
01:10:03,434 --> 01:10:05,835
And that jury, in their hearts,

2021
01:10:05,837 --> 01:10:08,337
they permit this guy to go free,

2022
01:10:08,339 --> 01:10:10,339
is only gonna see another

2023
01:10:10,341 --> 01:10:15,277
tragedy.

2024
01:10:15,279 --> 01:10:16,612
The jury had taken the

2025
01:10:16,614 --> 01:10:17,964
weekend to deliberate Rand's

2026
01:10:17,966 --> 01:10:19,164
fate, which gave us the

2027
01:10:19,166 --> 01:10:20,733
opportunity to seek out one last

2028
01:10:20,735 --> 01:10:22,635
person... reverend Muskett, a

2029
01:10:22,637 --> 01:10:24,436
storefront preacher who had

2030
01:10:24,438 --> 01:10:26,338
housed Rand in the final days

2031
01:10:26,340 --> 01:10:28,608
before his arrest in '87.

2032
01:10:28,942 --> 01:10:30,309
For months, we had searched

2033
01:10:30,443 --> 01:10:31,777
for his whereabouts until a

2034
01:10:31,912 --> 01:10:33,412
detective finally revealed his

2035
01:10:33,546 --> 01:10:36,181
address.

2036
01:10:36,516 --> 01:10:40,152
Hey, I'm looking for
Mr. Muskett.

2037
01:10:40,154 --> 01:10:41,487
I don't know if he really

2038
01:10:41,489 --> 01:10:42,922
wants to be involved anymore in

2039
01:10:42,924 --> 01:10:43,889
this at all or not.

2040
01:10:43,891 --> 01:10:45,190
Maybe you feel like your

2041
01:10:45,192 --> 01:10:46,692
family got negative attention as

2042
01:10:46,694 --> 01:10:47,893
a result of it, I'm sure.

2043
01:10:47,895 --> 01:10:48,861
Yeah, because...

2044
01:10:48,863 --> 01:10:50,096
Well, actually we did.

2045
01:10:50,598 --> 01:10:52,031
It's one of the reasons why

2046
01:10:52,033 --> 01:10:53,198
we came to Pennsylvania.

2047
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:57,937
Right.

2048
01:10:57,939 --> 01:10:59,538
So, Rand was living in your

2049
01:10:59,540 --> 01:11:00,873
house while he was under

2050
01:11:00,875 --> 01:11:02,474
suspicion for taking Jennifer?

2051
01:11:03,677 --> 01:11:06,746
It was at the police's own

2052
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:08,213
insistence that we took

2053
01:11:08,348 --> 01:11:13,653
Andre Rand in.

2054
01:11:13,787 --> 01:11:16,188
They bugged the house, and they

2055
01:11:16,322 --> 01:11:18,357
had a surveillance vehicle

2056
01:11:18,491 --> 01:11:20,760
sitting on the corner day and

2057
01:11:32,338 --> 01:11:34,640
we couldn't tell the community

2058
01:11:34,775 --> 01:11:36,776
what we were doing because,

2059
01:11:36,910 --> 01:11:39,145
obviously, if we did, he would

2060
01:11:39,279 --> 01:11:41,446
know and would leave.

2061
01:11:41,782 --> 01:11:49,955
So as far as the community knew, we were friends
of Andre Rand. Did they physically threaten

2062
01:11:49,957 --> 01:11:50,622
you?

2063
01:11:50,624 --> 01:11:52,491
Some people had.

2064
01:11:52,493 --> 01:11:55,327
They didn't view me as a friend.

2065
01:11:55,329 --> 01:12:01,533
But I was a friend of Jennifer.

2066
01:12:01,535 --> 01:12:03,235
Why do you believe he took

2067
01:12:03,237 --> 01:12:03,936
Jennifer?

2068
01:12:03,938 --> 01:12:06,172
He told me.

2069
01:12:06,174 --> 01:12:09,608
He told me he took her.

2070
01:12:09,610 --> 01:12:13,512
He took her because he thought

2071
01:12:13,514 --> 01:12:15,514
that her family didn't want her

2072
01:12:15,516 --> 01:12:21,420
and that she was alone, and he

2073
01:12:21,422 --> 01:12:25,024
felt that people that had mental

2074
01:12:25,026 --> 01:12:26,391
handicaps and that shouldn't be

2075
01:12:26,393 --> 01:12:28,260
alive...

2076
01:12:32,866 --> 01:12:39,805
Not thinking that people would appreciate or
care for or like someone who has a mental

2077
01:12:39,807 --> 01:12:44,143
handicap.

2078
01:12:44,145 --> 01:12:47,346
Andre believed that these

2079
01:12:47,348 --> 01:12:50,149
young girls came from families

2080
01:12:50,151 --> 01:12:52,752
that they couldn't give them

2081
01:12:52,754 --> 01:12:54,820
anything, so the best thing was

2082
01:12:54,822 --> 01:12:58,323
that they weren't around.

2083
01:12:58,325 --> 01:12:59,825
He seemed to think it was

2084
01:12:59,827 --> 01:13:02,795
part of his mission to cleanse

2085
01:13:02,797 --> 01:13:06,498
the world of...

2086
01:13:06,500 --> 01:13:08,200
"Imperfect children" in his

2087
01:13:08,202 --> 01:13:10,903
eyes.

2088
01:13:10,905 --> 01:13:12,437
Due to the fact that his

2089
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:14,106
mother had some sort of mental

2090
01:13:14,108 --> 01:13:16,642
disability and the fact that he

2091
01:13:16,644 --> 01:13:19,145
viewed these other people that

2092
01:13:19,147 --> 01:13:21,546
were less than perfect, and I

2093
01:13:21,548 --> 01:13:24,150
personally feel that rather than

2094
01:13:24,152 --> 01:13:27,519
see them maybe grow up and have

2095
01:13:27,521 --> 01:13:29,554
children, he was sparing them

2096
01:13:29,556 --> 01:13:32,624
and taking them out.

2097
01:13:32,626 --> 01:13:34,726
One of my sons is mentally

2098
01:13:34,728 --> 01:13:36,996
retarded, which hung around with

2099
01:13:37,564 --> 01:13:39,531
his name's chippy.

2100
01:13:39,533 --> 01:13:43,235
And that's probably what drawn

2101
01:13:43,237 --> 01:13:49,641
him to...

2102
01:13:49,643 --> 01:13:52,744
Well, to us, because of chippy

2103
01:13:52,746 --> 01:13:56,081
being the way he is.

2104
01:13:56,083 --> 01:13:58,217
I think he's possessed.

2105
01:13:58,219 --> 01:13:59,985
I really think that he is

2106
01:13:59,987 --> 01:14:04,290
demonized and possessed.

2107
01:14:04,292 --> 01:14:05,858
We had the same questions

2108
01:14:05,860 --> 01:14:07,626
that you're asking me... why did

2109
01:14:07,628 --> 01:14:08,393
he do this?

2110
01:14:08,395 --> 01:14:09,428
What set him off?

2111
01:14:09,430 --> 01:14:11,030
Believe me, we were wide-open

2112
01:14:11,032 --> 01:14:12,364
for any type of motive.

2113
01:14:12,366 --> 01:14:13,799
When we did interview him

2114
01:14:13,801 --> 01:14:15,434
finally, there was gonna be a

2115
01:14:15,436 --> 01:14:16,936
final interview, and we were

2116
01:14:16,938 --> 01:14:18,670
gonna take him back through his

2117
01:14:18,672 --> 01:14:20,372
alibi, and that's why we rented

2118
01:14:20,374 --> 01:14:22,208
a hotel room.

2119
01:14:22,210 --> 01:14:23,342
We said, "Andre, look, we got

2120
01:14:23,344 --> 01:14:24,376
this tape of willowbrook.

2121
01:14:24,378 --> 01:14:25,477
Remember you used to work at

2122
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:26,078
willowbrook?"

2123
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:27,179
"Oh yeah, it was terrible."

2124
01:14:27,181 --> 01:14:28,047
I said, "remember how

2125
01:14:28,049 --> 01:14:29,248
Geraldo Rivera did the exposé?"

2126
01:14:29,250 --> 01:14:30,316
He said, "yeah, but I never

2127
01:14:30,318 --> 01:14:30,782
saw it."

2128
01:14:30,784 --> 01:14:31,550
"Well, we have it.

2129
01:14:31,552 --> 01:14:32,684
Would you like to come up and

2130
01:14:32,686 --> 01:14:33,085
see it?

2131
01:14:33,087 --> 01:14:34,287
Cause we have a VCR up there."

2132
01:14:34,288 --> 01:14:35,354
And he said, "you know, I'd

2133
01:14:35,356 --> 01:14:36,356
really like that."

2134
01:14:36,357 --> 01:14:37,923
And we're saying, "well, he did

2135
01:14:37,925 --> 01:14:39,325
work at willowbrook for two

2136
01:14:39,327 --> 01:14:39,825
years.

2137
01:14:39,827 --> 01:14:41,260
He was a physical therapist.

2138
01:14:41,262 --> 01:14:42,828
Maybe there's something on that

2139
01:14:42,830 --> 01:14:47,933
tape that's gonna shake him."

2140
01:14:48,268 --> 01:14:49,534
Perhaps the governor can

2141
01:14:49,669 --> 01:14:50,936
defend and explain away the

2142
01:14:51,071 --> 01:14:52,504
budget cuts for the department

2143
01:14:52,638 --> 01:14:54,039
of mental hygiene, and perhaps

2144
01:14:54,174 --> 01:14:55,407
Dr. Miller can explain and

2145
01:14:55,541 --> 01:14:56,976
defend the filthy, dehumanizing

2146
01:14:57,110 --> 01:14:58,577
conditions we found in this and

2147
01:14:58,711 --> 01:15:00,145
other buildings, but they won't

2148
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:01,680
do it on this program.

2149
01:15:02,015 --> 01:15:06,318
What we found and documented here is a disgrace
to all of us. This place isn't a school.

2150
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:07,719
It's a dark corner where we

2151
01:15:07,721 --> 01:15:09,355
throw children who aren't pretty

2152
01:15:09,357 --> 01:15:10,055
to look at.

2153
01:15:10,057 --> 01:15:11,357
It's the big town's leper

2154
01:15:11,359 --> 01:15:13,225
colony.

2155
01:15:23,436 --> 01:15:26,605
We were sitting on both sides of him...
And he started to cry.

2156
01:15:26,607 --> 01:15:27,672
He started to cry.

2157
01:15:27,674 --> 01:15:29,141
And he said, "do you see how

2158
01:15:29,143 --> 01:15:29,641
it was?

2159
01:15:29,643 --> 01:15:30,643
You see how it was?

2160
01:15:30,644 --> 01:15:32,077
We were victims, too," meaning

2161
01:15:32,079 --> 01:15:33,412
the attendants or the people

2162
01:15:33,414 --> 01:15:39,385
that worked there.

2163
01:15:39,387 --> 01:15:40,786
He just sat there, and his eyes,

2164
01:15:40,788 --> 01:15:41,954
like, rolled, and he just

2165
01:15:41,956 --> 01:15:43,255
started drooling in the hotel

2166
01:15:43,257 --> 01:15:45,524
room.

2167
01:15:45,526 --> 01:15:46,558
We could see what was

2168
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:47,859
happening to him, and it's like

2169
01:15:47,861 --> 01:15:49,128
you would kneel right in front

2170
01:15:49,130 --> 01:15:51,096
of him.

2171
01:15:51,098 --> 01:15:51,630
"Say it.

2172
01:15:51,632 --> 01:15:52,764
Tell us the truth now."

2173
01:15:52,766 --> 01:15:54,066
You know, "god will forgive

2174
01:15:54,068 --> 01:15:56,735
you."

2175
01:15:56,737 --> 01:15:57,602
We were so close.

2176
01:15:57,604 --> 01:15:58,604
We thought we had it.

2177
01:15:58,605 --> 01:16:03,675
Then he just started to rock.

2178
01:16:03,677 --> 01:16:05,144
He was that way that whole

2179
01:16:05,146 --> 01:16:06,678
night, the whole next day, and

2180
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:08,013
he didn't start talking to

2181
01:16:08,015 --> 01:16:09,548
people until two or three days

2182
01:16:09,550 --> 01:16:11,417
later.

2183
01:16:23,663 --> 01:16:29,768
As much as it had started, in
the end, it all came back to

2184
01:16:29,770 --> 01:16:31,203
were the answers to these

2185
01:16:31,205 --> 01:16:32,637
missing children found on

2186
01:16:32,639 --> 01:16:35,274
Geraldo's tape?

2187
01:16:35,276 --> 01:16:36,808
And if so, had the sins of

2188
01:16:36,810 --> 01:16:38,677
willowbrook finally come back to

2189
01:16:38,679 --> 01:16:41,146
haunt the residents of

2190
01:16:44,618 --> 01:16:47,386
all news, all the time.

2191
01:16:47,388 --> 01:16:49,654
This is 1010 wins.

2192
01:16:49,656 --> 01:16:51,674
You give us 22 minutes, we'll

2193
01:16:51,676 --> 01:16:53,275
give you the world.

2194
01:16:53,277 --> 01:16:55,444
A guilty verdict 23 years

2195
01:16:55,446 --> 01:16:56,311
after 7-year-old

2196
01:16:56,313 --> 01:16:57,780
Holly Ann Hughes vanished from

2197
01:16:57,782 --> 01:16:59,114
outside of her Staten Island

2198
01:16:59,116 --> 01:16:59,548
home.

2199
01:16:59,550 --> 01:17:00,883
This is the heroes right

2200
01:17:01,285 --> 01:17:02,585
heroes, heroes, heroes,

2201
01:17:02,587 --> 01:17:03,052
heroes.

2202
01:17:03,054 --> 01:17:03,852
He's a killer.

2203
01:17:03,854 --> 01:17:06,689
He's a killer and a kidnapper.

2204
01:17:06,691 --> 01:17:07,957
Tell us where she is.

2205
01:17:07,959 --> 01:17:09,424
Tell us where the other kids

2206
01:17:09,426 --> 01:17:09,825
are.

2207
01:17:09,827 --> 01:17:10,993
I'll go look for them.

2208
01:17:10,995 --> 01:17:11,894
I'll find them.

2209
01:17:11,896 --> 01:17:13,462
The other ones, of course, yes.

2210
01:17:13,464 --> 01:17:14,563
There's speculation.

2211
01:17:14,565 --> 01:17:16,198
But we will make sure that those

2212
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:17,800
cases someday come to trial and

2213
01:17:17,802 --> 01:17:19,367
that the rest of those families

2214
01:17:19,369 --> 01:17:20,869
have the same type of justice

2215
01:17:20,871 --> 01:17:22,337
that the Schweiger's and the

2216
01:17:22,339 --> 01:17:24,707
Hughes have.

2217
01:17:25,041 --> 01:17:26,321
A lot of weight is lifted off

2218
01:17:26,442 --> 01:17:27,009
me right now.

2219
01:17:27,143 --> 01:17:27,843
I feel better.

2220
01:17:27,978 --> 01:17:29,258
Do you feel any closure about

2221
01:17:29,378 --> 01:17:31,513
the verdict?

2222
01:17:31,848 --> 01:17:36,685
Well, you know, it...
It's not gonna bring back

2223
01:17:36,687 --> 01:17:37,352
you know that.

2224
01:17:37,354 --> 01:17:39,655
But...

2225
01:17:39,657 --> 01:17:40,823
She's

2226
01:17:40,825 --> 01:17:41,389
watching.

2227
01:17:41,391 --> 01:17:42,157
That's enough.

2228
01:17:42,159 --> 01:17:43,659
Well, the killer had a lot of

2229
01:17:43,661 --> 01:17:44,994
nicknames... the pied Piper,

2230
01:17:44,996 --> 01:17:46,394
Hannibal Lechter, the bogeyman

2231
01:17:46,396 --> 01:17:47,295
of Staten Island.

2232
01:17:47,297 --> 01:17:48,530
His victims were among the

2233
01:17:48,532 --> 01:17:49,397
most vulnerable.

2234
01:17:49,399 --> 01:17:50,365
They were children.

2235
01:17:50,367 --> 01:17:51,667
And tonight, prosecutors are

2236
01:17:51,669 --> 01:17:53,135
making sure that predator stays

2237
01:17:53,137 --> 01:17:54,236
behind bars.

2238
01:17:54,238 --> 01:17:56,605
23 years ago, the entire city

2239
01:17:56,607 --> 01:17:58,974
was transfixed with the image of

2240
01:17:58,976 --> 01:18:01,309
an innocent 7-year-old girl who

2241
01:18:01,311 --> 01:18:03,545
disappeared in the blink of an

2242
01:18:03,547 --> 01:18:04,113
eye.

2243
01:18:04,115 --> 01:18:06,181
Sadly, Holly Ann Hughes has

2244
01:18:06,183 --> 01:18:09,685
never made it home.

2245
01:18:09,687 --> 01:18:13,889
Mr. Rand...

2246
01:18:13,891 --> 01:18:15,758
What the conviction today

2247
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:17,259
does is assure us that

2248
01:18:17,261 --> 01:18:19,227
Andre Rand will die in prison.

2249
01:18:19,229 --> 01:18:21,196
Andre Rand was sentenced 25

2250
01:18:21,198 --> 01:18:23,298
years to life for the kidnapping

2251
01:18:23,300 --> 01:18:24,700
of Holly Ann Hughes.

2252
01:18:24,702 --> 01:18:26,669
He will be eligible for parole

2253
01:18:26,671 --> 01:18:29,038
in 2037.

2254
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:32,407
He will be 93 years old.

2255
01:18:32,409 --> 01:18:33,409
Ooh.

2256
01:18:34,078 --> 01:18:36,411
No matter how horrible the

2257
01:18:36,413 --> 01:18:39,014
allegation was, this case was

2258
01:18:39,016 --> 01:18:41,349
hardly a case where it was

2259
01:18:41,351 --> 01:18:45,353
proved conclusively that this

2260
01:18:45,355 --> 01:18:47,122
guy committed this crime.

2261
01:18:47,124 --> 01:18:49,224
That just goes to show, when

2262
01:18:49,226 --> 01:18:51,359
it comes to a child is hurt, an

2263
01:18:51,361 --> 01:18:54,362
innocent child is lost...

2264
01:18:54,364 --> 01:18:55,698
You know, people want to

2265
01:18:55,700 --> 01:18:56,865
basically lynch you.

2266
01:18:56,867 --> 01:18:58,466
And if they had an opportunity

2267
01:18:58,468 --> 01:19:00,002
to lynch anybody, they would

2268
01:19:00,004 --> 01:19:00,736
lynch Rand.

2269
01:19:00,738 --> 01:19:02,404
Did you ever think you would

2270
01:19:02,406 --> 01:19:05,107
get to this day?

2271
01:19:07,411 --> 01:19:09,344
No, never thought I'd get

2272
01:19:09,947 --> 01:19:12,047
I don't feel like I got closure

2273
01:19:12,049 --> 01:19:12,748
at all.

2274
01:19:12,750 --> 01:19:14,850
You know, I mean, you never get

2275
01:19:14,852 --> 01:19:16,685
closure, and that's just a

2276
01:19:16,687 --> 01:19:18,087
bullshit word, too.

2277
01:19:18,089 --> 01:19:20,189
I mean, it happened, and that's

2278
01:19:21,959 --> 01:19:23,092
you got to live with it.

2279
01:19:23,094 --> 01:19:24,059
You have no choice.

2280
01:19:24,061 --> 01:19:25,227
I'd just like to find her

2281
01:19:25,229 --> 01:19:28,030
remains and...

2282
01:19:28,032 --> 01:19:32,768
Put it to rest.

2283
01:19:32,770 --> 01:19:34,036
Actually, part of the

2284
01:19:34,038 --> 01:19:35,403
testimony in this case, he

2285
01:19:35,405 --> 01:19:37,005
claimed that we were looking in

2286
01:19:37,007 --> 01:19:37,906
the wrong spot.

2287
01:19:37,908 --> 01:19:39,007
Well, you know what?

2288
01:19:39,009 --> 01:19:40,508
I'll make sure we look in the

2289
01:19:40,510 --> 01:19:41,210
right spot.

2290
01:19:41,212 --> 01:19:42,444
Where would that be?

2291
01:19:42,446 --> 01:19:43,946
That's willowbrook.

2292
01:19:43,948 --> 01:19:45,848
Now's the time to use what we

2293
01:19:45,850 --> 01:19:47,883
learned from this one to reopen

2294
01:19:47,885 --> 01:19:49,551
another one of the cases.

2295
01:19:49,553 --> 01:19:51,453
I think he likes playing this

2296
01:19:51,455 --> 01:19:52,687
little head game.

2297
01:19:52,689 --> 01:19:54,656
I think we're gonna get little

2298
01:19:54,658 --> 01:19:59,361
hints over the next few years.

2299
01:19:59,363 --> 01:20:01,029
You know, he likes to be the

2300
01:20:01,031 --> 01:20:02,731
center of attention, the one

2301
01:20:02,733 --> 01:20:04,432
that holds... the keeper of the

2302
01:20:04,434 --> 01:20:06,068
secrets, and I think that's

2303
01:20:06,070 --> 01:20:07,702
gonna play a real important

2304
01:20:07,704 --> 01:20:08,103
part.

2305
01:20:08,105 --> 01:20:09,404
Donna, just say your full

2306
01:20:09,406 --> 01:20:10,773
name for me, and tell me again

2307
01:20:10,775 --> 01:20:12,207
the title of your organization.

2308
01:20:12,709 --> 01:20:16,078
It's Donna Cutugno. C-u-t-u-g...

2309
01:20:25,955 --> 01:20:30,425
Was Andre Rand convicted on fact or
fiction? We'll probably never know.

2310
01:20:30,427 --> 01:20:31,960
But for the residents of

2311
01:20:31,962 --> 01:20:33,662
Staten Island, there was no

2312
01:20:33,664 --> 01:20:34,863
distinction.

2313
01:20:34,865 --> 01:20:37,232
He was their child murderer,

2314
01:20:37,234 --> 01:20:39,467
their scapegoat, and their

2315
01:20:39,469 --> 01:20:42,037
bogeyman all tightly woven into

2316
01:20:42,039 --> 01:20:46,641
one.

2317
01:20:46,643 --> 01:20:47,976
To some, Andre Rand was the

2318
01:20:47,978 --> 01:20:49,494
ringleader to an underground

2319
01:20:49,496 --> 01:20:50,829
community of outcasts who roamed

2320
01:20:50,831 --> 01:20:52,831
the woods.

2321
01:20:52,833 --> 01:20:54,700
To others, he was an unwitting

2322
01:20:54,702 --> 01:20:56,668
puppet, manipulated by a deviant

2323
01:20:56,670 --> 01:20:58,169
cult that trafficked in

2324
01:20:58,171 --> 01:21:00,338
children...

2325
01:21:00,340 --> 01:21:02,207
Or a delusion murderer, fueled

2326
01:21:02,209 --> 01:21:03,842
by our own urban failures,

2327
01:21:03,844 --> 01:21:05,811
killing those he thought weren't

2328
01:21:05,813 --> 01:21:09,548
worthy of living.

2329
01:21:09,550 --> 01:21:11,082
We will never know the real

2330
01:21:11,084 --> 01:21:12,785
story behind Andre Rand, so all

2331
01:21:12,787 --> 01:21:14,085
we're left with is our

2332
01:21:14,087 --> 01:21:17,823
version, that of Cropsey.

2333
01:21:17,825 --> 01:21:19,925
But now we've added another

2334
01:21:19,927 --> 01:21:22,294
chapter for the next generation

2335
01:21:22,296 --> 01:21:24,262
of kids on Staten Island.

2336
01:21:24,264 --> 01:21:26,498
The power of the urban legend

2337
01:21:26,500 --> 01:21:28,801
is that it doesn't claim to be

2338
01:21:28,803 --> 01:21:31,036
the truth, but rather it says

2339
01:21:31,038 --> 01:21:32,871
the truth is a range of

2340
01:21:32,873 --> 01:21:34,973
possibilities, and it's the

2341
01:21:34,975 --> 01:21:36,942
audience who must decide.

2342
01:21:36,944 --> 01:21:38,811
So pick one.