1 00:00:08,274 --> 00:00:11,177 - [Matt] Alright, so let's start get into this. 2 00:00:11,244 --> 00:00:15,448 (laughing) 3 00:00:15,515 --> 00:00:17,083 - Okay. 4 00:00:17,150 --> 00:00:18,284 All right. 5 00:00:18,351 --> 00:00:20,019 - [Matt] And rolling, so the quick session. 6 00:00:20,086 --> 00:00:21,488 - So I'm ready to give it the first take, 7 00:00:21,554 --> 00:00:22,589 but one more question. 8 00:00:22,655 --> 00:00:25,992 Is this so like my very quickly and I say thank you 9 00:00:26,059 --> 00:00:27,627 for coming here tonight. 10 00:00:27,694 --> 00:00:28,461 - [Matt] Right. 11 00:00:28,528 --> 00:00:29,929 - I mean clearly that's not the courtroom version. 12 00:00:29,996 --> 00:00:31,231 So today, okay yeah. 13 00:00:31,297 --> 00:00:34,734 So just clean it up a little bit. 14 00:00:34,801 --> 00:00:35,969 Ladies and gentlemen, 15 00:00:36,035 --> 00:00:38,204 firstly let me thank you for being here today. 16 00:00:38,271 --> 00:00:40,807 Now I will cut right to it in the next few minutes. 17 00:00:40,874 --> 00:00:44,811 I will describe to you the who, 18 00:00:40,874 --> 00:00:44,811 the what, 19 00:00:44,878 --> 00:00:55,121 the why, and the where of this case. 20 00:00:55,188 --> 00:00:56,556 Hello, my name is Rob Talach. 21 00:00:56,623 --> 00:00:59,959 I represent the plaintiff. 22 00:01:00,026 --> 00:01:04,130 There were 17 individuals in that you pled guilty to abuse. 23 00:01:04,197 --> 00:01:07,133 - Yes. 24 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,269 - [Rob] You were convicted of that along with other 25 00:01:09,335 --> 00:01:13,006 crimes in June of 2011. 26 00:01:13,072 --> 00:01:15,675 - That's right. 27 00:01:15,742 --> 00:01:18,411 - The plaintiff my client is seated here to my right. 28 00:01:18,478 --> 00:01:22,081 His name is Mr. Rod MacLeod. 29 00:01:22,148 --> 00:01:24,317 I bet some of you already have a pretty good idea 30 00:01:24,384 --> 00:01:26,853 what this case is about. 31 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,523 You're about to hear the story of Rod's life, 32 00:01:30,590 --> 00:01:33,593 a key piece of it is the sexual abuse he suffered 33 00:01:33,660 --> 00:01:37,163 at the hands of Father Hod Marshall. 34 00:01:37,230 --> 00:01:39,732 Most of these victims were boys 35 00:01:39,799 --> 00:01:41,167 when you sexually abused them. 36 00:01:41,234 --> 00:01:43,503 - [Hod] That's right. 37 00:01:43,570 --> 00:01:45,238 - The other side of this case 38 00:01:45,305 --> 00:01:47,807 is the Basilian fathers of Toronto. 39 00:01:47,874 --> 00:01:51,678 They are a Roman Catholic religious order. 40 00:01:51,744 --> 00:01:54,714 And most of these victims were boys at schools 41 00:01:54,781 --> 00:01:57,383 you were working at the time you abused them. 42 00:01:57,450 --> 00:01:59,886 - [Hod] Most, yes. 43 00:01:59,953 --> 00:02:00,000 - They employed a priest by the 44 00:01:59,953 --> 00:02:00,000 name of Father Hod Marshall. 45 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,757 - They employed a priest by the 46 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,757 name of Father Hod Marshall. 47 00:02:04,824 --> 00:02:06,392 You've been convicted of sexual 48 00:02:04,824 --> 00:02:06,392 offenses. 49 00:02:06,459 --> 00:02:07,694 - That's right. 50 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,196 - [Rob] And you were sentenced to a two year prison term. 51 00:02:10,263 --> 00:02:11,064 - Yes. 52 00:02:11,131 --> 00:02:13,299 - [Rob] And you served 16 months 53 00:02:11,131 --> 00:02:13,299 of that 54 00:02:13,366 --> 00:02:14,701 and were placed on parole. 55 00:02:14,767 --> 00:02:16,936 - That's right. 56 00:02:17,003 --> 00:02:19,839 - Father Marshall was 57 00:02:17,003 --> 00:02:19,839 originally part of this lawsuit, 58 00:02:19,906 --> 00:02:23,510 but he died recently over the course of it. 59 00:02:23,576 --> 00:02:25,979 - Is it fair to say that almost every school 60 00:02:26,045 --> 00:02:32,352 you taught at you would have sexually touched the boys. 61 00:02:32,418 --> 00:02:35,922 - With a few exceptions, yes. 62 00:02:35,989 --> 00:02:38,191 - You will be tasked at the end of this case 63 00:02:38,258 --> 00:02:41,327 with determining the level of financial compensation 64 00:02:41,394 --> 00:02:44,998 that Rod will receive. 65 00:02:45,064 --> 00:02:46,866 Where will this money come from? 66 00:02:46,933 --> 00:02:49,836 It will come from the Basilian fathers. 67 00:02:49,903 --> 00:02:53,006 Let's take some of that money they've amassed 68 00:02:53,072 --> 00:02:55,675 and put it back where it really 69 00:02:53,072 --> 00:02:55,675 belongs 70 00:02:55,742 --> 00:02:58,645 into the hands of a victim of Father Marshall. 71 00:02:58,711 --> 00:03:01,748 Mr. Rod MacLeod. 72 00:03:01,814 --> 00:03:04,918 And ladies and gentlemen, that's what punitive damages 73 00:03:04,984 --> 00:03:09,822 are for: to denounce and deter that type of misconduct. 74 00:03:09,889 --> 00:03:18,431 (dramatic music) 75 00:03:18,498 --> 00:03:26,606 (bell rings) 76 00:03:26,673 --> 00:03:29,709 - I decided early on that I felt 77 00:03:29,776 --> 00:03:32,145 that it was my duty. 78 00:03:32,211 --> 00:03:35,315 Yes, I'd been silent for 55 years, 79 00:03:35,381 --> 00:03:37,584 but now I had to do the opposite. 80 00:03:37,650 --> 00:03:40,820 I had to open the window and 81 00:03:40,887 --> 00:03:45,491 vent all of what had gone on. 82 00:03:45,558 --> 00:03:50,930 In order to finally start to set the record straight. 83 00:03:50,997 --> 00:03:54,233 Not just for myself, but for all the others 84 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:59,939 who'd been sexually abused just 85 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:59,939 as I had. 86 00:04:00,006 --> 00:04:03,443 Well in some ways I think of the 87 00:04:00,006 --> 00:04:03,443 church 88 00:04:03,509 --> 00:04:06,613 as the main perpetrator. 89 00:04:06,679 --> 00:04:09,415 Yes, they didn't physically do, 90 00:04:09,482 --> 00:04:14,120 but what they did was they enabled the physical 91 00:04:14,187 --> 00:04:18,558 perpetrator to hide, to move, to 92 00:04:14,187 --> 00:04:18,558 do again 93 00:04:18,625 --> 00:04:20,393 over, and over again. 94 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:22,262 Why would they do that? 95 00:04:22,328 --> 00:04:27,200 Why would they allow someone to sexually abuse 96 00:04:27,266 --> 00:04:29,502 children in their care? 97 00:04:29,569 --> 00:04:48,588 (somber music) 98 00:05:02,435 --> 00:05:05,571 (bell rings) 99 00:05:05,638 --> 00:05:10,743 So long ago. 100 00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:27,927 Yet, it's like it was yesterday. 101 00:05:27,994 --> 00:05:31,397 And you see this is exactly the way it was back then 102 00:05:31,464 --> 00:05:32,331 when I was here. 103 00:05:32,398 --> 00:05:43,943 No question. 104 00:05:44,010 --> 00:05:48,815 It brings back that that feeling of having to flee 105 00:05:48,881 --> 00:05:54,120 and getting ready to flee. 106 00:05:54,187 --> 00:06:11,304 It's disturbing. 107 00:06:11,370 --> 00:06:13,172 When the one that you have to flee from 108 00:06:13,239 --> 00:06:19,112 is in such a position of authority and respect. 109 00:06:19,178 --> 00:06:23,149 It's not like a school bully or 110 00:06:19,178 --> 00:06:23,149 something 111 00:06:23,216 --> 00:06:27,286 that you can just run away from. 112 00:06:27,353 --> 00:06:33,192 See if he comes around the corner, he's got ya. 113 00:06:33,259 --> 00:06:38,664 It was always a game of cat and 114 00:06:33,259 --> 00:06:38,664 mouse. 115 00:06:38,731 --> 00:06:41,167 And of course I was the mouse. 116 00:06:41,234 --> 00:06:44,971 (somber music) 117 00:06:45,037 --> 00:06:55,615 (sobbing) 118 00:06:55,681 --> 00:07:02,622 (beeping) 119 00:07:02,688 --> 00:07:04,724 - Hi, it's downtown Tesla. 120 00:07:04,791 --> 00:07:06,793 Your car's ready for delivery. 121 00:07:06,859 --> 00:07:09,529 (light music) 122 00:07:09,595 --> 00:07:13,566 - That's it, sweet. 123 00:07:13,633 --> 00:07:14,801 Here you go. 124 00:07:14,867 --> 00:07:15,635 You guys came in far away. 125 00:07:15,701 --> 00:07:16,469 - Oh, okay, thank you sir. 126 00:07:16,536 --> 00:07:17,870 - All right, thanks again. - Thank you, thanks. 127 00:07:17,937 --> 00:07:18,871 - Take care. - Okay. 128 00:07:18,938 --> 00:07:21,741 - I have been called the priest hunter before. 129 00:07:21,808 --> 00:07:24,811 I don't see priest hunter as a derogatory term. 130 00:07:24,877 --> 00:07:28,314 I mean the priest that I'm hunting deserve to be hunted. 131 00:07:28,381 --> 00:07:31,584 And someone else should have hunted them out long ago. 132 00:07:31,651 --> 00:07:43,896 Namely the church itself. 133 00:07:43,963 --> 00:07:48,201 Rod's case went to trial because 134 00:07:43,963 --> 00:07:48,201 Rod's singular motivation 135 00:07:48,267 --> 00:07:52,138 was to make a difference. 136 00:07:52,205 --> 00:07:54,574 Well most cases end in settlement because 137 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,475 there's pressure on both sides to do it. 138 00:07:56,542 --> 00:07:58,444 There's shame and apprehension on 139 00:07:58,511 --> 00:08:00,213 the victim's side. 140 00:08:00,279 --> 00:08:04,717 And I think there's a lot of PR factor especially 141 00:08:04,784 --> 00:08:16,662 for Catholic entities, scandal factor that they wanna avoid. 142 00:08:16,729 --> 00:08:17,964 So I'm done for today. 143 00:08:18,030 --> 00:08:19,932 Sir, thank you. 144 00:08:19,999 --> 00:08:21,534 And I believe no other counsel have questions. 145 00:08:21,601 --> 00:08:23,135 Am I correct on that? 146 00:08:23,202 --> 00:08:23,970 Heads are nodding. 147 00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:30,176 Yes, so we can go off the record. 148 00:08:30,243 --> 00:08:34,547 - I am the public face of the Basilian fathers. 149 00:08:34,614 --> 00:08:36,682 Hod Marshall was someone that I 150 00:08:34,614 --> 00:08:36,682 walked 151 00:08:36,749 --> 00:08:41,621 with through this whole 152 00:08:36,749 --> 00:08:41,621 journey from the very first day 153 00:08:41,687 --> 00:08:44,590 I was in the office as the vicar 154 00:08:41,687 --> 00:08:44,590 general 155 00:08:44,657 --> 00:08:47,293 till the day he died 156 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,330 and I had people in my own community angry 157 00:08:51,397 --> 00:08:54,200 and upset with me that I was doing that 158 00:08:54,267 --> 00:08:57,503 so graciously and lovingly. 159 00:08:57,570 --> 00:08:59,672 But, the only answer I could give them 160 00:08:59,739 --> 00:09:03,276 was that I had to because he was my brother 161 00:09:03,342 --> 00:09:07,213 and we don't abandon our brother when things get tough. 162 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,850 We journey with them through their own, 163 00:09:10,917 --> 00:09:15,154 their own death and resurrection hopefully. 164 00:09:15,221 --> 00:09:28,167 (light music) 165 00:09:28,234 --> 00:09:33,906 (dramatic music) 166 00:09:33,973 --> 00:09:36,676 - With the percentages being about one or 2% of these cases 167 00:09:36,742 --> 00:09:37,877 go to trial. 168 00:09:37,944 --> 00:09:40,313 Sex abuse trial lawyers are kind of like firemen 169 00:09:40,379 --> 00:09:43,983 that never leave the fire hall. 170 00:09:44,050 --> 00:09:46,752 When you get the call and you get in the engine 171 00:09:46,819 --> 00:09:49,288 and your head into the fire 172 00:09:46,819 --> 00:09:49,288 and you're actually gonna fight 173 00:09:49,355 --> 00:09:51,624 a fire you're gonna do a trial. 174 00:09:51,691 --> 00:09:54,193 It is very exciting. 175 00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:56,662 - Rod MacLeod's case went to trial 176 00:09:56,729 --> 00:10:00,333 because all of our attempts at settlement 177 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:03,836 through mediation were unsuccessful. 178 00:10:03,903 --> 00:10:09,275 Mr. MacLeod felt that we were not being fair 179 00:10:09,342 --> 00:10:12,078 and just in what we were willing to offer him 180 00:10:12,144 --> 00:10:15,982 as a settlement. 181 00:10:16,048 --> 00:10:18,584 - [Rob] All right, this is the totality of documents 182 00:10:18,651 --> 00:10:23,656 they provided us on first request. 183 00:10:23,723 --> 00:10:26,792 Marshall became a novice in 1942 184 00:10:26,859 --> 00:10:29,829 and we know he was at least still acting in 1996. 185 00:10:29,895 --> 00:10:32,198 - [Rod] Yes, 54 years. 186 00:10:32,264 --> 00:10:34,233 - And there's not a stitch of paper in his 187 00:10:34,300 --> 00:10:36,369 personnel file that they initially provided us 188 00:10:36,435 --> 00:10:37,970 that says: he's an abuser, 189 00:10:38,037 --> 00:10:39,839 he has an issue with kids, 190 00:10:39,905 --> 00:10:40,940 he's been in medical treatment anything. 191 00:10:41,007 --> 00:10:43,943 Nothing, nada. 192 00:10:44,010 --> 00:10:47,980 We're sitting here on the eve of 193 00:10:44,010 --> 00:10:47,980 a trial. 194 00:10:48,047 --> 00:10:49,615 A lot of people after they've been victimized 195 00:10:49,682 --> 00:10:51,717 especially for multiple times over multiple years 196 00:10:51,784 --> 00:10:55,254 as children and then lived a very dysfunctional life. 197 00:10:55,321 --> 00:10:56,555 They don't have that ability to 198 00:10:55,321 --> 00:10:56,555 deal 199 00:10:56,622 --> 00:10:59,625 with the psychological stress. 200 00:10:59,692 --> 00:11:03,195 I think Rod felt that he got on to this a little late, 201 00:11:03,262 --> 00:11:06,699 wasn't able to participate in the police prosecution 202 00:11:06,766 --> 00:11:08,934 and so his cross to bear was to 203 00:11:06,766 --> 00:11:08,934 take 204 00:11:09,001 --> 00:11:13,005 this to a public trial. 205 00:11:13,072 --> 00:11:16,208 Rod unlike most victims was in a 206 00:11:13,072 --> 00:11:16,208 situation 207 00:11:16,275 --> 00:11:20,846 financially and psychologically 208 00:11:16,275 --> 00:11:20,846 that he could do that 209 00:11:20,913 --> 00:11:26,585 and not a lot of victims a lot of survivors can. 210 00:11:26,652 --> 00:11:29,522 When we started sniffing around they came out 211 00:11:29,588 --> 00:11:32,792 with a confidential memorandum. 212 00:11:32,858 --> 00:11:38,097 Norman Tank priest reports to Robert Barringer priest. 213 00:11:38,164 --> 00:11:39,999 In the course of our conversation Father Marshall 214 00:11:40,066 --> 00:11:43,169 volunteered that this was not the only incident. 215 00:11:43,235 --> 00:11:45,671 His estimation is that there may 216 00:11:43,235 --> 00:11:45,671 have been 217 00:11:45,738 --> 00:11:49,708 around two to three high school boys per year 218 00:11:49,775 --> 00:11:54,046 from the early 1950s until 1979. 219 00:11:54,113 --> 00:11:56,649 The only note about him is very 220 00:11:54,113 --> 00:11:56,649 pious. 221 00:11:56,715 --> 00:11:59,018 His great interest in boys makes him neglect 222 00:11:59,085 --> 00:12:00,753 his theological studies. 223 00:12:00,820 --> 00:12:02,254 - [Rod] Yeah, right. 224 00:12:02,321 --> 00:12:06,692 So if the guy that wrote this knew that he had been caught 225 00:12:06,759 --> 00:12:08,661 abusing a boy he would look probably be 226 00:12:08,727 --> 00:12:10,763 more concerned about his great interest in boys right. 227 00:12:10,830 --> 00:12:12,331 - Yeah. 228 00:12:12,398 --> 00:12:14,400 - This goes to show that either they didn't care 229 00:12:14,467 --> 00:12:17,803 or they didn't pass on the information. 230 00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:23,309 (dramatic music) 231 00:12:23,375 --> 00:12:25,778 Ladies and gentlemen, let me begin by first 232 00:12:25,845 --> 00:12:40,493 thanking you for being here tonight. 233 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,828 I am a lawyer, my name is Rob Talach. 234 00:12:42,895 --> 00:12:44,597 I represent the plaintiff, 235 00:12:44,663 --> 00:12:48,100 Mr. Rod MacLeod and Rod as you will soon find out 236 00:12:48,167 --> 00:12:50,102 is suing for something horrible that happened 237 00:12:50,169 --> 00:12:52,171 to him when he was young. 238 00:12:52,238 --> 00:12:55,741 The sexual abuse of Rod over many years 239 00:12:55,808 --> 00:12:57,710 when he was an adolescent at the 240 00:12:55,808 --> 00:12:57,710 hands 241 00:12:57,776 --> 00:12:59,879 of Father Hod Marshall. 242 00:12:59,945 --> 00:13:02,915 The only defendant is the Basilians, 243 00:13:02,982 --> 00:13:05,251 they knew that Marshall was abusing boys 244 00:13:05,317 --> 00:13:07,319 and they did nothing. 245 00:13:07,386 --> 00:13:11,390 Imagine this they take young men that wanna be priests, 246 00:13:11,457 --> 00:13:12,625 they train them to be priests, 247 00:13:12,691 --> 00:13:15,394 but they also qualify them as teachers. 248 00:13:15,461 --> 00:13:17,496 They take an oath of poverty. 249 00:13:17,563 --> 00:13:19,598 They send these priests out into the world. 250 00:13:19,665 --> 00:13:22,168 And when it comes time for these Basilian priests 251 00:13:22,234 --> 00:13:26,305 to get their teacher paycheck, they don't. 252 00:13:26,372 --> 00:13:28,407 All the paychecks, all the money 253 00:13:26,372 --> 00:13:28,407 goes 254 00:13:28,474 --> 00:13:32,912 to headquarters their big business. 255 00:13:32,978 --> 00:13:38,217 Look we got four years of abuse over his teenage years. 256 00:13:38,284 --> 00:13:40,986 We've got fondling, we've got he'd lost his virginity. 257 00:13:41,053 --> 00:13:43,322 He was sodomized at least once. 258 00:13:43,389 --> 00:13:45,591 A priest and a teenage boy. 259 00:13:45,658 --> 00:13:48,694 This is devastating stuff. 260 00:13:48,761 --> 00:13:53,866 You find me many abuse cases that are worse than this. 261 00:13:53,933 --> 00:13:58,170 Father Marshall did abuse Roderick MacLeod. 262 00:13:58,237 --> 00:13:59,805 It did happen. 263 00:13:59,872 --> 00:14:02,942 This proceeding is about determining the damage 264 00:14:03,008 --> 00:14:06,312 and then compensating Mr. MacLeod for that damage. 265 00:14:06,378 --> 00:14:09,648 In this case the Basilian Fathers that I represent 266 00:14:09,715 --> 00:14:12,418 accept that damage has been done. 267 00:14:12,484 --> 00:14:14,820 The crux of this matter is that the evidence 268 00:14:14,887 --> 00:14:18,390 does not support the degree of damage that Mr. MacLeod 269 00:14:18,457 --> 00:14:21,427 and his counsel are asserting. 270 00:14:21,493 --> 00:14:24,697 This is not an exceptional 271 00:14:21,493 --> 00:14:24,697 case where Basilian Fathers act 272 00:14:24,763 --> 00:14:26,165 in a malicious, offensive, 273 00:14:26,232 --> 00:14:28,968 or high handed matter toward Mr. 274 00:14:26,232 --> 00:14:28,968 MacLeod. 275 00:14:29,034 --> 00:14:32,004 And consequently there is no place for punitive damages 276 00:14:32,071 --> 00:14:34,139 against them in this matter. 277 00:14:34,206 --> 00:14:36,475 Thank you. 278 00:14:36,542 --> 00:14:39,845 - [Rod] He'd start by tickling you and then very quickly 279 00:14:39,912 --> 00:14:44,483 it would become sexual fondling. 280 00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:46,719 - [Rob] Had you had any sexual interaction with anyone 281 00:14:46,785 --> 00:14:47,586 prior to this? 282 00:14:47,653 --> 00:14:49,121 - No, no. - Okay. 283 00:14:49,188 --> 00:14:51,624 Does he ever get you to orgasm? 284 00:14:51,690 --> 00:14:52,625 - He does. 285 00:14:52,691 --> 00:14:54,693 - [Rob] Is that your first sexual experience? 286 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:55,527 - Yes. 287 00:14:55,594 --> 00:14:58,530 - Okay, and does this carry on over the grade nine year? 288 00:14:58,597 --> 00:14:59,431 - It does. 289 00:14:59,498 --> 00:15:02,101 - At what frequency or rate? 290 00:15:02,167 --> 00:15:04,603 - It could be as frequent as three times a week. 291 00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:08,107 But certainly no less than once 292 00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:08,107 a week. 293 00:15:08,173 --> 00:15:11,744 - What were your fears if someone else had found out? 294 00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:15,881 - Well I believed that, I know, 295 00:15:15,948 --> 00:15:20,419 I was just a kid and here was a priests so obviously 296 00:15:20,486 --> 00:15:24,189 it'd be my fault and I'd be expelled. 297 00:15:24,256 --> 00:15:26,191 My parents would probably not wanna have anything 298 00:15:26,258 --> 00:15:27,293 to do with me 299 00:15:27,359 --> 00:15:31,263 and all of that 300 00:15:31,330 --> 00:15:37,336 Eventually one time it ended up 301 00:15:31,330 --> 00:15:37,336 with him 302 00:15:37,403 --> 00:15:41,073 penetrating me from behind. 303 00:15:41,140 --> 00:15:43,575 - Sodomy? - Yes. 304 00:15:43,642 --> 00:15:45,277 - [Rob] Looking back with the wisdom of years 305 00:15:45,344 --> 00:15:47,112 and some psychological guidance. 306 00:15:47,179 --> 00:15:49,181 What is the big effect that you wanna leave 307 00:15:49,248 --> 00:15:52,518 with these people? 308 00:15:52,584 --> 00:16:03,595 - Well it's just this overwhelming feeling of 309 00:16:03,662 --> 00:16:08,634 not being worthy. 310 00:16:08,701 --> 00:16:12,104 (sobbing) And even after five years of working through it 311 00:16:12,171 --> 00:16:21,280 and being aware I still have not gotten over it. 312 00:16:21,347 --> 00:16:22,147 - I'll end there. 313 00:16:22,214 --> 00:16:23,449 With your permission I'd like to 314 00:16:22,214 --> 00:16:23,449 give them 315 00:16:23,515 --> 00:16:35,427 a couple of minutes. 316 00:16:35,494 --> 00:16:36,261 - [Juror] I was not convinced 317 00:16:36,328 --> 00:16:39,398 that the abuse led him to make the decisions that he made. 318 00:16:39,465 --> 00:16:40,299 I just was not convinced. 319 00:16:40,366 --> 00:16:43,469 I thought the defense's arguments were strong. 320 00:16:43,535 --> 00:16:46,338 - It is about is this person in 321 00:16:43,535 --> 00:16:46,338 pain. 322 00:16:46,405 --> 00:16:47,840 Have they suffered? 323 00:16:47,906 --> 00:16:50,142 We just had a gentleman stand up 324 00:16:47,906 --> 00:16:50,142 in a room 325 00:16:50,209 --> 00:16:56,682 with over 15 complete strangers 326 00:16:50,209 --> 00:16:56,682 and completely lose his shit 327 00:16:56,749 --> 00:17:00,018 right in front of us this person 328 00:17:00,085 --> 00:17:04,957 clearly is in pain and clearly is suffering. 329 00:17:05,023 --> 00:17:05,924 - At no point in time did he seek 330 00:17:05,991 --> 00:17:07,960 diagnosis from a psychiatrist or 331 00:17:05,991 --> 00:17:07,960 receive 332 00:17:08,026 --> 00:17:11,563 a diagnosis that would look at PTSD or depression. 333 00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:12,798 - [Juror] The pain and suffering only really 334 00:17:12,865 --> 00:17:16,168 became apparent as of that point. 335 00:17:16,235 --> 00:17:18,070 - In the end there is no question 336 00:17:18,137 --> 00:17:20,406 that the interference that he experienced 337 00:17:20,472 --> 00:17:22,608 at a young age and the responsibility 338 00:17:22,674 --> 00:17:24,443 of the defense. 339 00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:25,544 It did. 340 00:17:25,611 --> 00:17:26,545 It was enough. 341 00:17:26,612 --> 00:17:28,914 They do need to be responsible financially 342 00:17:28,981 --> 00:17:30,082 for that in the end. 343 00:17:30,149 --> 00:17:32,284 - [Juror] He's cheap! 344 00:17:32,351 --> 00:17:35,020 (laughing) 345 00:17:35,087 --> 00:17:37,289 - [Rob] The jury that started in here, Jason? 346 00:17:37,356 --> 00:17:40,459 Can you present your findings? 347 00:17:40,526 --> 00:17:41,460 - How much do you award 348 00:17:41,527 --> 00:17:42,995 the plaintiff for his pain and suffering? 349 00:17:43,061 --> 00:17:46,498 And we agreed on 200,000. 350 00:17:46,565 --> 00:17:47,833 Do you award the plaintiff any money 351 00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:50,302 for the impact of his past earning capacity, past loss? 352 00:17:50,369 --> 00:17:51,370 And if yes, how much? 353 00:17:51,437 --> 00:17:53,872 We decided a million. 354 00:17:53,939 --> 00:17:55,741 Do you as a group award the plaintiff any money 355 00:17:55,808 --> 00:17:57,075 for the cost of future counseling 356 00:17:57,142 --> 00:18:00,379 and medication and 50,000 was what we decided 357 00:18:00,446 --> 00:18:03,048 and for punitive damages for the 358 00:18:00,446 --> 00:18:03,048 conduct 359 00:18:03,115 --> 00:18:04,116 of the Basilians? 360 00:18:04,183 --> 00:18:05,350 We awarded one million. 361 00:18:05,417 --> 00:18:06,952 - [Rob] All right, thank you. 362 00:18:07,019 --> 00:18:26,371 (pensive music) 363 00:18:33,045 --> 00:18:39,585 (ringing) 364 00:18:39,651 --> 00:18:40,953 Hey Rod, how are you? 365 00:18:41,019 --> 00:18:41,720 - [Rod] Good Rob, how are you? 366 00:18:41,787 --> 00:18:42,521 - [Rod] Good Rob, how are you? 367 00:18:42,588 --> 00:18:45,257 - Let me just update you on some stuff that just occurred. 368 00:18:45,324 --> 00:18:46,125 Ok? 369 00:18:46,191 --> 00:18:47,092 - [Rod] Yeah. 370 00:18:47,159 --> 00:18:49,261 - [Rob] I have heard from Miss Metzler. 371 00:18:49,328 --> 00:18:51,530 She's pretty polite in this email trying to keep 372 00:18:51,597 --> 00:18:55,067 the demeanor and the tone between us conducive 373 00:18:55,133 --> 00:18:57,302 to maybe a settlement talk. 374 00:18:57,369 --> 00:18:58,136 - [Rod] Right. 375 00:18:58,203 --> 00:19:01,306 - So, I tell you that I guess in partial warning 376 00:19:01,373 --> 00:19:04,109 in preparation that they may dive into settlement 377 00:19:04,176 --> 00:19:05,978 efforts on Monday and we'll talk a little bit 378 00:19:06,044 --> 00:19:09,982 about that on the eve of on Sunday. 379 00:19:10,048 --> 00:19:11,817 And what we wanna do in response 380 00:19:10,048 --> 00:19:11,817 to that. 381 00:19:11,884 --> 00:19:13,619 I mean I understand the simple position 382 00:19:13,685 --> 00:19:14,853 that you have right now. 383 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,822 And I appreciate it being that simple 384 00:19:16,889 --> 00:19:20,025 is there is there offer take it or leave it, right? 385 00:19:20,092 --> 00:19:21,994 - Right. - Ok. 386 00:19:22,060 --> 00:19:24,029 - [Rod] I hope they leave it. 387 00:19:24,096 --> 00:19:25,597 I don't want them to take it. 388 00:19:25,664 --> 00:19:27,733 - Right, right. 389 00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:30,235 And I've warned you previously that this is their style, 390 00:19:30,302 --> 00:19:31,770 to drag the client or the victim 391 00:19:31,837 --> 00:19:35,374 through years of litigation, make the lawyers do everything 392 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,075 and you do everything 393 00:19:37,142 --> 00:19:41,146 and then show up with a checkbook on Monday morning. 394 00:19:41,213 --> 00:19:45,384 Ok, so subject any questions I'm 395 00:19:41,213 --> 00:19:45,384 gonna get 396 00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:46,885 back at it. 397 00:19:46,952 --> 00:19:48,954 - [Rod] Ok, sounds good. 398 00:19:59,464 --> 00:20:03,869 (somber music) 399 00:20:03,936 --> 00:20:05,871 When the trial is done so I could end up 400 00:20:05,938 --> 00:20:08,040 actually owing money. 401 00:20:08,106 --> 00:20:13,445 A big bill that I'll have to pay for the rest of my life. 402 00:20:13,512 --> 00:20:19,585 It's a very real danger that exists out there. 403 00:20:19,651 --> 00:20:23,088 That can shake you right to the 404 00:20:19,651 --> 00:20:23,088 bone, 405 00:20:23,155 --> 00:20:27,125 but I try to just focus on my brothers who went 406 00:20:27,192 --> 00:20:30,696 through the same thing that I have. 407 00:21:26,551 --> 00:21:30,055 - I work in finance, and costing, and accounting over 408 00:21:30,122 --> 00:21:31,289 the course of my career. 409 00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:34,426 And if you ask my family they would quite 410 00:21:34,493 --> 00:21:37,396 succinctly say I love numbers. 411 00:21:37,462 --> 00:21:41,099 I tend to analyze things in that manner from 412 00:21:41,166 --> 00:21:45,103 a numeric perspective a dollar and cents perspective. 413 00:21:45,170 --> 00:21:47,105 And it works for many things. 414 00:21:47,172 --> 00:21:58,850 It doesn't work for sexual abuse. 415 00:21:58,917 --> 00:22:02,254 I have spent most of my life blending 416 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:07,526 into the background. 417 00:22:07,592 --> 00:22:08,760 When I'm not doing that? 418 00:22:08,827 --> 00:22:14,766 When I'm standing up and being heard. 419 00:22:14,833 --> 00:22:17,936 I am pushing myself with everything I have to be there 420 00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:25,811 and I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do. 421 00:22:25,877 --> 00:22:32,951 It all begins for me really before I was born. 422 00:22:33,018 --> 00:22:36,254 Marshall was part of the family almost like 423 00:22:36,321 --> 00:22:40,192 the family pastor. 424 00:22:40,258 --> 00:22:42,627 He would often stay at our house. 425 00:22:42,694 --> 00:22:48,300 He was certainly welcome in our house anytime he wanted 426 00:22:48,366 --> 00:22:51,636 and having a priest staying in the house 427 00:22:51,703 --> 00:22:54,439 was an honor to my family, 428 00:22:54,506 --> 00:22:59,111 I guess that was probably how they looked at it. 429 00:22:59,177 --> 00:23:01,113 He abused me in my own home, 430 00:23:01,179 --> 00:23:05,350 in my bed and it just happened that my bedroom 431 00:23:05,417 --> 00:23:10,122 was the one that abutted my parents our beds 432 00:23:10,188 --> 00:23:12,224 shared opposite sides of the same wall. 433 00:23:12,290 --> 00:23:18,163 And he was there in the night in my bed with me. 434 00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:20,732 As an adult I look back now and say all I had 435 00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:24,402 to do was knock on that wall. 436 00:23:24,469 --> 00:23:27,405 And my parents would have been coming in there 437 00:23:27,472 --> 00:23:33,912 right in a hurry. 438 00:23:33,979 --> 00:23:39,117 I struggled for many years as to why I didn't do that 439 00:23:39,184 --> 00:23:45,891 and I felt a lot guilt about that. 440 00:23:45,957 --> 00:23:53,565 I kept it to myself for a very long time. 441 00:23:53,632 --> 00:23:58,470 A big part of my life was just 442 00:23:58,537 --> 00:24:01,573 wishing I could 443 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,010 disappear off the face of the earth. 444 00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:23,762 (somber music) 445 00:24:23,829 --> 00:24:25,564 - In previous years I had followed 446 00:24:25,630 --> 00:24:29,234 the criminal trial of Father Marshall and Patrick McMahon, 447 00:24:29,301 --> 00:24:32,404 of course, was a huge part of that case. 448 00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:34,806 He was the first one to lay a criminal complaint 449 00:24:34,873 --> 00:24:37,375 in decades against this priest. 450 00:24:37,442 --> 00:24:40,579 So when Rod's case came to Toronto. 451 00:24:40,645 --> 00:24:42,881 He said, Patrick phoned me up and said here's 452 00:24:42,948 --> 00:24:44,249 a case you might wanna follow. 453 00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:56,661 And I thought, I'm gonna be there. 454 00:24:56,728 --> 00:25:01,199 - Attending the trial was never a question for me. 455 00:25:01,266 --> 00:25:07,772 I wouldn't have missed it for anything really. 456 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:13,044 My objective was the exposure of 457 00:25:13,111 --> 00:25:14,246 his enablers 458 00:25:14,312 --> 00:25:18,750 in the church and that is the bigger issue, 459 00:25:18,817 --> 00:25:32,030 that is the truly the bigger crime. 460 00:25:32,097 --> 00:25:34,933 - [Rob] So we're set to start a jury trial in Toronto 461 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:41,539 which should run between three and four weeks. 462 00:25:41,606 --> 00:25:44,409 This civil setting allows the victim, the client, 463 00:25:44,476 --> 00:25:47,445 to control the process and allows them to say 464 00:25:47,512 --> 00:25:52,117 how far it's gonna go, how intense it's going to be. 465 00:25:52,183 --> 00:25:55,387 And that is extremely satisfying and cathartic 466 00:25:55,453 --> 00:25:59,124 for a lot of my clients. 467 00:25:59,190 --> 00:26:03,895 And I like to think that you know it is even more so 468 00:26:03,962 --> 00:26:13,405 than the money they ultimately receive. 469 00:26:13,471 --> 00:26:14,773 - I'm actually quite surprised 470 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:16,841 that with what seems to be coming out more 471 00:26:16,908 --> 00:26:20,078 and more with the church scandals is that there's 472 00:26:20,145 --> 00:26:22,948 not more of a flood of them. 473 00:26:23,014 --> 00:26:27,252 There still seems to be a lot of this under wraps. 474 00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:30,956 I had expected at some point the lid would blow off. 475 00:26:31,022 --> 00:26:33,658 That hasn't happened here and I 476 00:26:31,022 --> 00:26:33,658 find that 477 00:26:33,725 --> 00:26:36,394 a little surprising that maybe because there have been 478 00:26:36,461 --> 00:26:40,031 so many settlements with non-disclosure agreements 479 00:26:40,098 --> 00:26:45,070 as part of them. 480 00:26:45,136 --> 00:26:49,975 - [Rob] Is this the courthouse that the pre trials are in? 481 00:26:50,041 --> 00:26:51,276 Though the tactical advantage 482 00:26:51,343 --> 00:26:54,546 of me having to go first is that I get the reply, right? 483 00:26:54,612 --> 00:26:55,680 - [Aaron] But, we have no idea 484 00:26:55,747 --> 00:26:57,482 what their argument is going to 485 00:26:55,747 --> 00:26:57,482 be. 486 00:26:57,549 --> 00:27:01,286 - [Rob] Right, right. 487 00:27:01,353 --> 00:27:03,121 - [Aaron] And the judge might just take 488 00:27:03,188 --> 00:27:06,992 control of the whole process and start firing questions 489 00:27:07,058 --> 00:27:10,228 - Right. 490 00:27:10,295 --> 00:27:20,772 (somber music) 491 00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:22,640 Well I think the first shocking 492 00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:22,640 impression 493 00:27:22,707 --> 00:27:25,543 is when you walk into this courtroom it is small. 494 00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:29,781 I mean it's the size of a high school classroom really. 495 00:27:29,848 --> 00:27:32,851 The judge is slightly elevated in the center 496 00:27:32,917 --> 00:27:34,386 of the far end of the courtroom he's not on 497 00:27:34,452 --> 00:27:39,791 this massive pedestal like you picture in Hollywood movies. 498 00:27:39,858 --> 00:27:40,859 The judge for the trial 499 00:27:40,925 --> 00:27:44,095 was his honorable Justice Arthur 500 00:27:40,925 --> 00:27:44,095 Gans. 501 00:27:44,162 --> 00:27:48,233 Who is someone I immediately Googled when I got his name 502 00:27:48,299 --> 00:27:54,305 and he's a colorful character, very outspoken. 503 00:27:54,372 --> 00:27:57,575 - The jury was a mix of male and 504 00:27:54,372 --> 00:27:57,575 female; 505 00:27:57,642 --> 00:28:00,145 more females than males. 506 00:28:00,211 --> 00:28:04,682 There was a good mixture of ages although more on 507 00:28:04,749 --> 00:28:09,721 the high side than the low side. 508 00:28:09,788 --> 00:28:14,559 - The lead defense lawyer is Susan Metzler. 509 00:28:14,626 --> 00:28:17,796 Where Susan and I differ you know I think her 510 00:28:17,862 --> 00:28:20,231 specialty if I can call it that 511 00:28:17,862 --> 00:28:20,231 is defense 512 00:28:20,298 --> 00:28:22,233 of Catholic churches and entities. 513 00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:26,571 So we see her on a lot of files 514 00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:26,571 across the country frankly. 515 00:28:26,638 --> 00:28:28,807 You know the joke is you know who's Superman 516 00:28:28,873 --> 00:28:29,874 and who's Lex Luthor? 517 00:28:29,941 --> 00:28:30,000 We each have different opinions 518 00:28:29,941 --> 00:28:30,000 on that. 519 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,509 We each have different opinions 520 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,509 on that. 521 00:28:31,576 --> 00:28:34,879 But, yeah I know Susan well. 522 00:28:34,946 --> 00:28:40,285 - [Rod] And then behind all of us was the gallery. 523 00:28:40,351 --> 00:28:43,888 - I kind of had this emotional thing going on of the day 524 00:28:43,955 --> 00:28:46,191 has finally arrived I'm here. 525 00:28:46,257 --> 00:28:49,894 There they are in court answering for their crimes, 526 00:28:49,961 --> 00:28:54,699 even though I'm only here as a observer. 527 00:28:54,766 --> 00:28:57,268 The defense side had their two lawyers 528 00:28:57,335 --> 00:29:01,806 and the church representative. 529 00:29:01,873 --> 00:29:05,110 - I felt like I was in a tomb. 530 00:29:05,176 --> 00:29:07,645 I was very much aware of the fact that there were 531 00:29:07,712 --> 00:29:11,149 a lot of eyes watching me to see how I was going 532 00:29:11,216 --> 00:29:13,818 to respond to anything that was 533 00:29:11,216 --> 00:29:13,818 being said 534 00:29:13,885 --> 00:29:16,121 or anything that was being done. 535 00:29:16,187 --> 00:29:21,493 It was pretty heavy duty experience. 536 00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:22,594 - We had already met, 537 00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:25,096 he greeted me by name. 538 00:29:25,163 --> 00:29:30,935 I knew Susan Metzler having dealt with her in my own suit. 539 00:29:31,002 --> 00:29:34,239 When they say: Hello Patrick, how are you? 540 00:29:34,305 --> 00:29:36,774 I wanna say well I'm terrible. 541 00:29:36,841 --> 00:29:38,810 I was sexually assaulted as a child and I had 542 00:29:38,877 --> 00:29:41,012 to spend years fighting you two. 543 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:42,247 You wanna know how I am? 544 00:29:42,313 --> 00:29:43,948 Come to my house sometime and we'll spend 545 00:29:44,015 --> 00:29:46,184 five hours talking about it. 546 00:29:46,251 --> 00:29:52,457 But, instead I said I'm fine, how are you? 547 00:29:52,524 --> 00:29:54,659 - Ladies and gentlemen, firstly let me thank you 548 00:29:54,726 --> 00:29:58,196 for being here today. 549 00:29:58,263 --> 00:30:02,133 You are about to hear the real life story of Rod MacLeod. 550 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,904 Of his 68 years, his triumphs and his tragedies 551 00:30:05,970 --> 00:30:09,541 of his time here on this planet. 552 00:30:09,607 --> 00:30:11,809 And in order to do that, he will at times have 553 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:14,145 to bare all on this stand. 554 00:30:14,212 --> 00:30:17,348 And you may feel that he is on trial. 555 00:30:17,415 --> 00:30:18,716 But, he is not. 556 00:30:18,783 --> 00:30:20,685 He is the plaintiff. 557 00:30:20,752 --> 00:30:22,387 It is the defendants that are on 558 00:30:20,752 --> 00:30:22,387 trial 559 00:30:22,453 --> 00:30:29,727 for the conduct of Father Marshall and themselves. 560 00:30:29,794 --> 00:30:33,164 Well my opening statement was designed to set 561 00:30:33,231 --> 00:30:36,935 a theme to the trial, which a good opening should. 562 00:30:37,001 --> 00:30:40,939 It was to introduce them to Rod and Rod's story life. 563 00:30:41,005 --> 00:30:43,675 And it was also frankly to get them a little 564 00:30:43,741 --> 00:30:46,644 irritated early on about what the Basilian fathers 565 00:30:46,711 --> 00:30:49,948 did and didn't do in this case. 566 00:30:50,014 --> 00:30:52,717 Marshall was like a toxic barrel 567 00:30:50,014 --> 00:30:52,717 of waste 568 00:30:52,784 --> 00:30:55,720 and every time he abused that barrel leaked. 569 00:30:55,787 --> 00:30:57,689 And every time there was a complaint the Basilians 570 00:30:57,755 --> 00:31:00,258 were alerted to the fact that the barrel was leaking. 571 00:31:00,325 --> 00:31:01,893 And the reaction was simply to move it 572 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,963 to another community and not tell that other community 573 00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:08,833 that it was a leaky barrel. 574 00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:12,003 - The experience of listening to Mr. Talach 575 00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:17,976 describe Hod Marshall as a leaking barrel of toxic waste. 576 00:31:18,042 --> 00:31:22,413 My initial impulse remember I was in the military. 577 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,551 My initial impulse was to tackle 578 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,551 him down 579 00:31:26,618 --> 00:31:30,355 onto the ground and throttle him. 580 00:31:30,421 --> 00:31:32,657 But it was it was an awful moment. 581 00:31:32,724 --> 00:31:37,629 Because, yes he did awful terrible things. 582 00:31:37,695 --> 00:31:41,532 But we have to always remember that he was also 583 00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:47,672 someone who was suffering from a terrible disease 584 00:31:47,739 --> 00:31:51,075 that we didn't know about at the time that he was 585 00:31:51,142 --> 00:31:55,580 doing the stuff that he was doing to young people. 586 00:31:55,647 --> 00:32:05,590 He's a pedophile and a very good pedophile at that. 587 00:32:05,657 --> 00:32:08,159 - I don't like talking about it. 588 00:32:08,226 --> 00:32:14,032 But, people need to know the truth. 589 00:32:14,098 --> 00:32:19,470 I didn't know where to start. 590 00:32:19,537 --> 00:32:26,311 All I know is I wanted to see some justice done. 591 00:32:26,377 --> 00:32:28,846 It was just, what I had to. 592 00:32:28,913 --> 00:32:39,924 (somber music) 593 00:32:51,703 --> 00:32:53,204 Good morning. 594 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:33,678 You know like the lone wolf howling at the moon. 595 00:33:33,745 --> 00:33:36,748 Nobody listening. 596 00:33:50,328 --> 00:33:53,664 - He might say look, I got it Miss. Metzler 597 00:33:53,731 --> 00:33:55,700 In the face of this law, what are you relying on? 598 00:33:55,767 --> 00:34:01,205 I think that's probably what will happen. 599 00:34:01,272 --> 00:34:06,077 Rod was our first witness which is the norm. 600 00:34:06,144 --> 00:34:08,546 And we took a lot of time with Rod because I wanted 601 00:34:08,613 --> 00:34:10,915 the jurors to reach a conclusion 602 00:34:10,982 --> 00:34:13,951 and understanding about Rod before the defense got in 603 00:34:14,018 --> 00:34:15,720 there and tried to poke holes in it through 604 00:34:15,787 --> 00:34:21,125 the cross-examination. 605 00:34:21,192 --> 00:34:26,431 - Well the most difficult part is going over the details. 606 00:34:26,497 --> 00:34:29,367 For 55 years, I had buried it 607 00:34:29,434 --> 00:34:34,405 and had not spent any time whatsoever 608 00:34:34,472 --> 00:34:37,942 thinking about it to the very best of my ability. 609 00:34:38,009 --> 00:34:41,145 It was extremely difficult. 610 00:34:41,212 --> 00:34:47,618 The only way that I could do it was I had promised myself 611 00:34:47,685 --> 00:34:50,188 that if I was going to trial that I 612 00:34:50,254 --> 00:34:51,622 wasn't going to leave anything out. 613 00:34:51,689 --> 00:34:56,194 That I was going to try and purge myself 100% 614 00:34:56,260 --> 00:34:58,196 of everything that had happened. 615 00:34:58,262 --> 00:35:03,701 By going into the memory and speaking it out. 616 00:35:03,768 --> 00:35:08,706 Hoping that that would help to finally start 617 00:35:08,773 --> 00:35:10,374 to heal the wounds. 618 00:35:10,441 --> 00:35:16,747 (somber music) 619 00:35:16,814 --> 00:35:18,149 - It goes without saying it's difficult 620 00:35:18,216 --> 00:35:20,551 because he's telling the story of his life 621 00:35:20,618 --> 00:35:23,788 and we're drilling down into the intimate details. 622 00:35:23,855 --> 00:35:28,059 His sexual history, all the failures, financial, 623 00:35:28,125 --> 00:35:31,028 personal, everything that hasn't worked out for him, 624 00:35:31,095 --> 00:35:32,864 we have to touch on because that 625 00:35:31,095 --> 00:35:32,864 goes 626 00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:34,465 to the effect and the damages. 627 00:35:34,532 --> 00:35:38,035 So, I mean it's difficult for anyone to sit there 628 00:35:38,102 --> 00:35:41,138 and talk about their failings for two days. 629 00:35:41,205 --> 00:35:43,241 But, it's especially difficult for a victim 630 00:35:43,307 --> 00:35:48,079 of sexual abuse to do it. 631 00:35:48,145 --> 00:35:49,180 - Father Katulski was watching 632 00:35:49,247 --> 00:35:53,417 very intently he was observing everything 633 00:35:53,484 --> 00:35:57,588 and talking to his counsel. 634 00:35:57,655 --> 00:36:00,091 This was important because it would appear 635 00:36:00,157 --> 00:36:05,530 that the Basilians were going to accept some of the abuse 636 00:36:05,596 --> 00:36:09,567 that had happened to Rod MacLeod. 637 00:36:09,634 --> 00:36:13,704 - Listening to Rod's story just 638 00:36:09,634 --> 00:36:13,704 moves me 639 00:36:13,771 --> 00:36:17,708 to a profound sense of sadness inside of myself that it 640 00:36:17,775 --> 00:36:19,243 even had to happen. 641 00:36:19,310 --> 00:36:23,848 Because it shouldn't have happened. 642 00:36:23,915 --> 00:36:26,651 - [Rod] It made me feel much more empathetic 643 00:36:26,717 --> 00:36:30,021 towards rape victims. 644 00:36:30,087 --> 00:36:35,660 The victims are too often subjugated to innuendo 645 00:36:35,726 --> 00:36:37,962 and to all kinds of 646 00:36:38,029 --> 00:36:42,967 very hurtful painful experiences. 647 00:36:43,034 --> 00:36:47,038 The victims just end up being victimized even more 648 00:36:47,104 --> 00:36:51,175 by the justice system. 649 00:36:51,242 --> 00:36:59,250 - Did I believe all of Rod's testimony? 650 00:36:59,317 --> 00:37:02,086 To the best as any human person can without 651 00:37:02,153 --> 00:37:08,092 knowing everything and having been there themselves. 652 00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:10,661 He was credible, yes. 653 00:37:31,282 --> 00:37:33,517 - So there's an offer on the table as you know. 654 00:37:33,584 --> 00:37:34,919 It's substantial. 655 00:37:34,986 --> 00:37:36,954 You wanna take it and be done? 656 00:37:37,021 --> 00:37:38,856 Or do you wanna go on? 657 00:37:38,923 --> 00:37:41,392 My recommendation is to proceed. 658 00:37:41,459 --> 00:37:42,360 Aaron? 659 00:37:42,426 --> 00:37:43,561 - It's a good offer, 660 00:37:43,628 --> 00:37:46,597 but at some level it's a personal decision. 661 00:37:46,664 --> 00:37:48,099 You've had our advice. 662 00:37:48,165 --> 00:37:50,601 That's a decision you're gonna have to make. 663 00:37:50,668 --> 00:37:54,305 - Well you see the problem is that if I accept it, 664 00:37:54,372 --> 00:37:59,176 I'd live to the end of my days thinking 665 00:37:59,243 --> 00:38:01,045 why the hell did I do that. 666 00:38:01,112 --> 00:38:04,382 - The church can't understand somebody who 667 00:38:04,448 --> 00:38:08,519 isn't about the money because all they're about 668 00:38:08,586 --> 00:38:09,754 is the money. 669 00:38:09,820 --> 00:38:12,757 And I think the proof is if you took a priest like 670 00:38:12,823 --> 00:38:16,127 Marshall and he was the bursar and he went 671 00:38:16,193 --> 00:38:20,097 to Rochester stole all the new building fund, 672 00:38:20,164 --> 00:38:22,099 would they have simply just moved him to Toronto 673 00:38:22,166 --> 00:38:24,502 and put him in charge of the bursary for St. Mike's 674 00:38:24,568 --> 00:38:26,270 and he steals all of that. 675 00:38:26,337 --> 00:38:28,406 And then when they have simply moved him 676 00:38:28,472 --> 00:38:31,042 to Assumption where he becomes the bursar again 677 00:38:31,108 --> 00:38:33,344 and steals all the money would they put him in 678 00:38:33,411 --> 00:38:34,879 as a bursar again? 679 00:38:34,945 --> 00:38:37,214 Would they even keep him as a priest? 680 00:38:37,281 --> 00:38:38,616 - [Aaron] No! 681 00:38:38,683 --> 00:38:42,420 - So I think the fact that it isn't about the money 682 00:38:42,486 --> 00:38:44,121 they just can't grasp that and they 683 00:38:44,188 --> 00:38:46,557 think at some point they're gonna be able 684 00:38:46,624 --> 00:38:50,061 to put sufficient pieces of silver in your hand 685 00:38:50,127 --> 00:38:52,396 because they do view as Judas 686 00:38:52,463 --> 00:38:54,598 and that you're gonna close your 687 00:38:52,463 --> 00:38:54,598 fist 688 00:38:54,665 --> 00:38:59,970 on that walk out the door and everything's good again. 689 00:39:00,037 --> 00:39:01,605 I think the fact that they don't 690 00:39:00,037 --> 00:39:01,605 know who 691 00:39:01,672 --> 00:39:05,543 they're dealing with is our greatest strength. 692 00:39:05,609 --> 00:39:09,480 - I wanna go on. 693 00:39:09,547 --> 00:39:12,316 - So to put the million dollar offer in perspective, 694 00:39:12,383 --> 00:39:13,851 it's about three to four times what 695 00:39:13,918 --> 00:39:17,054 the average good case settles for. 696 00:39:17,121 --> 00:39:20,691 I do what my client says and there was, 697 00:39:20,758 --> 00:39:24,762 I had two emotions one was wow, 698 00:39:24,829 --> 00:39:28,899 we really better do well here. 699 00:39:28,966 --> 00:39:30,000 But the second one was kind of, 700 00:39:28,966 --> 00:39:30,000 yes! 701 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,269 But the second one was kind of, 702 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,269 yes! 703 00:39:32,336 --> 00:39:35,005 We're gonna be able to finish this we're gonna be able 704 00:39:35,072 --> 00:39:37,842 to get a verdict and we're not gonna have something 705 00:39:37,908 --> 00:39:39,910 where the church can just buy us 706 00:39:39,977 --> 00:39:41,445 out at the 11th hour. 707 00:39:41,512 --> 00:39:44,248 To have a client like Rod that says damn the torpedoes. 708 00:39:44,315 --> 00:39:55,659 Let's take this to the end, was very encouraging. 709 00:39:55,726 --> 00:39:59,096 - There are many things that the 710 00:39:55,726 --> 00:39:59,096 church 711 00:39:59,163 --> 00:40:04,668 can do so much better in this area. 712 00:40:04,735 --> 00:40:07,738 What about the bishops, cardinals, 713 00:40:07,805 --> 00:40:12,243 fellow priests who knew? 714 00:40:12,309 --> 00:40:17,815 I don't see these people being called to account. 715 00:40:17,882 --> 00:40:19,150 Who's being kicked out of the church, 716 00:40:19,216 --> 00:40:23,788 defrocked, and cut off all ties from the church 717 00:40:23,854 --> 00:40:28,092 because they moved an abuser around? 718 00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:35,499 I don't see that happening. 719 00:40:35,566 --> 00:40:38,135 Our Lady of Mount Carmel. 720 00:40:38,202 --> 00:40:42,206 Pray for me. 721 00:40:42,273 --> 00:40:43,174 Don't talk to the victims. 722 00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:51,415 Don't want know. 723 00:40:51,482 --> 00:40:59,123 Apparently, I am no one's brother. 724 00:40:59,190 --> 00:41:00,524 - Are you the fellow who was in the paper, right? 725 00:41:00,591 --> 00:41:02,793 - [Patrick] Good morning, I've been in the paper. 726 00:41:02,860 --> 00:41:05,129 - It makes me sick because I know, 727 00:41:05,196 --> 00:41:09,366 like I knew Marshall and I knew Father Campbell 728 00:41:09,433 --> 00:41:10,601 was another one. 729 00:41:10,668 --> 00:41:14,772 - [Patrick] Yep, just more than more than we can count. 730 00:41:14,839 --> 00:41:18,309 The justice I wanted was I wanted it to be known 731 00:41:18,375 --> 00:41:20,544 who he was and what he did and I 732 00:41:18,375 --> 00:41:20,544 did. 733 00:41:20,611 --> 00:41:23,047 I was the first person to have charges laid against him. 734 00:41:23,113 --> 00:41:26,584 He went to jail, for 19 victims. 735 00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:28,485 - Wow. 736 00:41:28,552 --> 00:41:30,554 - [Patrick] Oh that was just a small portion 737 00:41:30,621 --> 00:41:33,257 he abused for 50 years. 738 00:41:33,324 --> 00:41:36,293 And he went to jail for 18 months for 19 victims. 739 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,395 So that was three weeks 740 00:41:38,462 --> 00:41:39,263 he served for me. - How old was he when 741 00:41:39,330 --> 00:41:41,398 he went to jail? 742 00:41:41,465 --> 00:41:43,467 - [Patrick] Late 70s I'm gonna say. 743 00:41:43,534 --> 00:41:45,069 He had his whole life. 744 00:41:45,135 --> 00:41:46,937 He abused children and moved on 745 00:41:45,135 --> 00:41:46,937 from city 746 00:41:47,004 --> 00:41:48,505 to city and school to school. 747 00:41:48,572 --> 00:41:49,607 Every time he did it. 748 00:41:49,673 --> 00:41:50,841 They moved him again. 749 00:41:50,908 --> 00:41:52,610 - [Woman] You know what you're gonna do? 750 00:41:52,676 --> 00:41:53,978 They're going to pay out millions and millions 751 00:41:54,044 --> 00:41:55,613 of dollars and then they're going to come to us 752 00:41:55,679 --> 00:41:57,414 'cause they need more money. 753 00:41:57,481 --> 00:42:00,017 - [Patrick] They just settled with the insurance company 754 00:42:00,084 --> 00:42:03,053 for millions, but the amount is confidential. 755 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,155 So you give them your money and they decide 756 00:42:05,222 --> 00:42:08,025 what to do with it and they won't tell you that. 757 00:42:08,092 --> 00:42:11,028 - [Woman] Something has finally got to be done. 758 00:42:11,095 --> 00:42:15,065 If nobody went to church any more for a few weeks. 759 00:42:15,132 --> 00:42:16,734 That would do it. 760 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,568 - [Patrick] You have a good day. 761 00:42:17,635 --> 00:42:19,236 Thank you for speaking with me. 762 00:42:19,303 --> 00:42:21,906 - [Woman] Thank you. 763 00:42:21,972 --> 00:42:26,043 - So part of the story of Rod MacLeod is the story 764 00:42:26,110 --> 00:42:28,612 of Father Marshall before Rod. 765 00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:31,615 So we had attempted to bring in some walking, 766 00:42:31,682 --> 00:42:34,051 talking, living victims of Father Marshall from 767 00:42:34,118 --> 00:42:37,454 the decades before Rod and specifically ones 768 00:42:37,521 --> 00:42:39,690 that had reported Marshall. 769 00:42:39,757 --> 00:42:43,260 (somber music) 770 00:42:43,327 --> 00:42:48,699 - Walking into the courtroom made me ill at ease. 771 00:42:48,766 --> 00:42:51,502 Reliving in my own mind the experience 772 00:42:51,568 --> 00:42:56,407 of Marshall assaulting me was very unnerving. 773 00:42:56,473 --> 00:42:58,842 It was, it was painful. 774 00:42:58,909 --> 00:43:01,011 It was hard to do. 775 00:43:01,078 --> 00:43:07,217 It's hard to hold your emotions 776 00:43:01,078 --> 00:43:07,217 back when you describe it. 777 00:43:07,284 --> 00:43:10,220 - The day I walked in to Rod MacLeod's trial 778 00:43:10,287 --> 00:43:13,724 I wasn't intimidated whatsoever. 779 00:43:13,791 --> 00:43:17,361 I've been there before in a trial venue. 780 00:43:17,428 --> 00:43:21,732 So I spoke the truth and that's what I basically 781 00:43:21,799 --> 00:43:24,668 always have said regarding Father Marshall. 782 00:43:24,735 --> 00:43:26,170 There's nothing, no pretenses, 783 00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:28,639 nothing to be shy or afraid of. 784 00:43:28,706 --> 00:43:31,775 So, I spoke my mind freely. 785 00:43:31,842 --> 00:43:33,978 - There was no personal, financial, 786 00:43:34,044 --> 00:43:36,313 or any other incentive to be there other than 787 00:43:36,380 --> 00:43:38,782 to expose the church for what they really are 788 00:43:38,849 --> 00:43:41,151 and what they've done to me and other victims 789 00:43:41,218 --> 00:43:50,260 of Marshall and others. 790 00:43:50,327 --> 00:43:51,328 - The abuse with Father Marshall 791 00:43:51,395 --> 00:43:54,832 started late October 1969. 792 00:43:54,898 --> 00:44:00,270 (somber music) 793 00:44:00,337 --> 00:44:06,210 Father Marshall asked me to remove my shorts. 794 00:44:06,276 --> 00:44:09,880 I was afraid. 795 00:44:09,947 --> 00:44:15,085 As I lowered my shorts he came up to me, grabbed my penis. 796 00:44:15,152 --> 00:44:17,955 He whispered in my ear and he gritted his teeth. 797 00:44:18,022 --> 00:44:19,656 That smile of his. 798 00:44:19,723 --> 00:44:22,626 If I tell anybody, I will be going to hell, 799 00:44:22,693 --> 00:44:37,474 he whispered in my ear. 800 00:44:37,541 --> 00:44:39,376 - He stopped me in the hallway 801 00:44:39,443 --> 00:44:43,914 and brought me into an empty classroom and he began 802 00:44:43,981 --> 00:44:46,917 to assault me there by putting his arms around me. 803 00:44:46,984 --> 00:44:50,054 Pinning my arms down and then putting his hands 804 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,490 inside my clothing to fondle. 805 00:44:53,557 --> 00:44:56,794 A priest opened the door, walked in, turned around, 806 00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:58,929 and said excuse me, walked out again. 807 00:44:58,996 --> 00:45:04,768 He could see exactly what Marshall was doing. 808 00:45:04,835 --> 00:45:07,504 He used to bring me back to his room and refer 809 00:45:07,571 --> 00:45:11,909 to it as a workout. 810 00:45:11,975 --> 00:45:14,144 He was assaulting me in his bedroom 811 00:45:14,211 --> 00:45:17,214 when another priest walked in and had somebody with him 812 00:45:17,281 --> 00:45:23,587 and said, "Oh this room is busy." 813 00:45:23,654 --> 00:45:26,090 The attorney for the Basilian say that: 814 00:45:26,156 --> 00:45:30,000 "Is it possible that they didn't 815 00:45:26,156 --> 00:45:30,000 see you?" 816 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,528 "Is it possible that they didn't 817 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,528 see you?" 818 00:45:31,595 --> 00:45:33,163 Ya, bastard. 819 00:45:33,230 --> 00:45:41,171 I said only if they had their eyes closed. 820 00:45:41,238 --> 00:45:42,439 - I asked my parents to sit down 821 00:45:42,506 --> 00:45:47,811 at the kitchen table and I told them what happened. 822 00:45:47,878 --> 00:45:52,683 So my father came after school about 3:10. 823 00:45:52,749 --> 00:45:54,651 My father couldn't speak English that well, 824 00:45:54,718 --> 00:45:58,622 but he says my son says Father Marshall touched him 825 00:45:58,689 --> 00:46:01,258 in a inappropriate way. 826 00:46:01,325 --> 00:46:04,561 And Father Rococo sort of laughed, 827 00:46:04,628 --> 00:46:06,263 "And your son I've talked to Ted's teachers, 828 00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:10,501 "He's a good student but he tends to exaggerate. 829 00:46:10,567 --> 00:46:15,339 "He has a very vivid imagination." 830 00:46:15,405 --> 00:46:17,341 - I was looking for help. 831 00:46:17,407 --> 00:46:19,576 Hard to find. 832 00:46:19,643 --> 00:46:23,547 Well I went into confession at Sacred Heart Church. 833 00:46:23,614 --> 00:46:27,518 I didn't come out with the 834 00:46:23,614 --> 00:46:27,518 normal ritual of bless me Father 835 00:46:27,584 --> 00:46:28,352 and all that. 836 00:46:28,418 --> 00:46:31,021 I said I have I have a problem. 837 00:46:31,088 --> 00:46:32,089 And I did not describe it. 838 00:46:32,156 --> 00:46:34,024 And he said: "What is it?" 839 00:46:34,091 --> 00:46:38,529 I said a Catholic priest was touching impure parts 840 00:46:38,595 --> 00:46:39,363 of my body. 841 00:46:39,429 --> 00:46:42,399 I didn't even know how to describe it. 842 00:46:42,466 --> 00:46:45,235 And he said: "What did you do?" 843 00:46:45,302 --> 00:46:46,470 Stop doing that. 844 00:46:46,537 --> 00:46:54,978 It's your fault. 845 00:46:55,045 --> 00:46:57,814 - The language of cover up 846 00:46:57,881 --> 00:47:02,452 that speaks of some kind of intentionality on the part 847 00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:04,555 of individuals who are deceased, 848 00:47:04,621 --> 00:47:07,558 that I don't have any documents 849 00:47:04,621 --> 00:47:07,558 of, 850 00:47:07,624 --> 00:47:10,327 people who I've respected and knew 851 00:47:10,394 --> 00:47:12,863 as good men and good priests. 852 00:47:12,930 --> 00:47:14,865 I believe in my heart of hearts, 853 00:47:14,932 --> 00:47:17,634 at least from my community perspective, 854 00:47:17,701 --> 00:47:20,337 that they were doing what they felt 855 00:47:20,404 --> 00:47:25,642 was the best practice of the day. 856 00:47:25,709 --> 00:47:30,948 - For them to deny knowledge is totally inappropriate. 857 00:47:31,014 --> 00:47:34,751 I know better and they know better. 858 00:47:34,818 --> 00:47:37,588 - Marshall would never have imagined 859 00:47:37,654 --> 00:47:40,123 that generations of his victims 860 00:47:37,654 --> 00:47:40,123 would be coming together 861 00:47:40,190 --> 00:47:42,726 in the same courtroom to indict 862 00:47:40,190 --> 00:47:42,726 him. 863 00:47:42,793 --> 00:47:44,428 And that's what we're doing here. 864 00:47:44,494 --> 00:47:45,929 I would think most right thinking people 865 00:47:45,996 --> 00:47:49,433 would have difficulty with the transfer, after transfer, 866 00:47:49,499 --> 00:47:52,402 after transfer, after transfer, after transfer, 867 00:47:52,469 --> 00:47:56,073 with a report of sexual abuse at each of these locations. 868 00:47:56,139 --> 00:47:59,910 And the thing that I think will 869 00:47:56,139 --> 00:47:59,910 be in, 870 00:47:59,977 --> 00:48:04,481 give the indigestion the most is in 1992 when they find 871 00:48:04,548 --> 00:48:07,751 out he's abused upwards of 50 boys or more. 872 00:48:07,818 --> 00:48:09,119 - [Aaron] And they don't tell the police 873 00:48:09,186 --> 00:48:12,022 they don't tell CAS they don't even reach out to try 874 00:48:12,089 --> 00:48:13,257 to find victims. - Nothing. 875 00:48:13,323 --> 00:48:15,859 Yeah just close the book on it. 876 00:48:15,926 --> 00:48:17,894 So, that's gotta be 1996. 877 00:48:17,961 --> 00:48:20,764 Nobody can say we didn't know and it was a moral failing 878 00:48:20,831 --> 00:48:22,366 and we didn't know better. 879 00:48:22,432 --> 00:48:29,206 The most educated international 880 00:48:22,432 --> 00:48:29,206 worldly group of folks. 881 00:48:29,273 --> 00:48:30,000 A subunit of the Roman Catholic 882 00:48:29,273 --> 00:48:30,000 Church 883 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,508 A subunit of the Roman Catholic 884 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,508 Church 885 00:48:31,575 --> 00:48:37,281 is basically using the defense of: duh. 886 00:48:37,347 --> 00:48:41,451 To say we didn't know better is gonna stink up 887 00:48:41,518 --> 00:48:47,024 the whole courtroom. 888 00:48:47,090 --> 00:48:50,661 So on one of the breaks I went to the washroom 889 00:48:50,727 --> 00:48:54,765 and about the same time Father Katulski came in behind me, 890 00:48:54,831 --> 00:48:57,100 and we're both at the urinal, side-by-side, 891 00:48:57,167 --> 00:49:00,170 sort of awkward and I would normally say something 892 00:49:00,237 --> 00:49:02,639 to sort of break the awkwardness. 893 00:49:02,706 --> 00:49:06,176 But, as I was about to I heard a whimpering, 894 00:49:06,243 --> 00:49:09,179 crying clearly from a grown man. 895 00:49:09,246 --> 00:49:12,683 But, the sort of thing you'd hear from a boy 896 00:49:12,749 --> 00:49:16,553 and it was coming from the stall in the bathroom 897 00:49:16,620 --> 00:49:18,922 and I quickly realized it was one of the victims 898 00:49:18,989 --> 00:49:22,259 who had come to testify or watch 899 00:49:18,989 --> 00:49:22,259 that day. 900 00:49:22,326 --> 00:49:24,828 And I just remained silent. 901 00:49:24,895 --> 00:49:28,532 I thought it was important for Father Katulski, 902 00:49:28,598 --> 00:49:30,000 who was a representative of the 903 00:49:28,598 --> 00:49:30,000 church, 904 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:30,367 who was a representative of the 905 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:30,367 church, 906 00:49:30,434 --> 00:49:34,738 to hear that, to hear the pain that was still emanating 907 00:49:34,805 --> 00:49:36,273 from a grown man for something 908 00:49:36,340 --> 00:49:38,075 that happened decades before. 909 00:49:38,141 --> 00:49:41,244 So we just sat there quiet in the bathroom 910 00:49:41,311 --> 00:49:48,585 and listened to this whimpering. 911 00:49:48,652 --> 00:49:51,555 - If anyone witnessed that I have no problem 912 00:49:51,621 --> 00:49:54,157 with that at all if it affected 913 00:49:51,621 --> 00:49:54,157 them, 914 00:49:54,224 --> 00:49:58,462 seeing the true impact of these 915 00:49:54,224 --> 00:49:58,462 crimes 916 00:49:58,528 --> 00:50:00,864 on just one of many victims. 917 00:50:00,931 --> 00:50:03,300 Maybe that's beneficial in some 918 00:50:00,931 --> 00:50:03,300 way. 919 00:50:03,367 --> 00:50:06,603 I don't know, but I always think 920 00:50:03,367 --> 00:50:06,603 the truth 921 00:50:06,670 --> 00:50:09,539 is the most beneficial thing to present to people 922 00:50:09,606 --> 00:50:10,941 and that was my truth. 923 00:50:11,007 --> 00:50:17,447 Part of my truth. 924 00:50:17,514 --> 00:50:19,383 - [Matt] Do you remember that day? 925 00:50:19,449 --> 00:50:22,319 - I do remember that day, yes. 926 00:50:22,386 --> 00:50:27,491 - [Matt] Can you tell me what you were thinking? 927 00:50:27,557 --> 00:50:30,000 - What I was basically 928 00:50:27,557 --> 00:50:30,000 thinking was that this is a man 929 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:30,293 - What I was basically 930 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:30,293 thinking was that this is a man 931 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,332 that needed someone to be with him in his grief. 932 00:50:35,399 --> 00:50:37,768 And I was not unfortunately the 933 00:50:35,399 --> 00:50:37,768 person 934 00:50:37,834 --> 00:50:40,804 that could do that and be that. 935 00:50:40,871 --> 00:50:54,818 That's what I was thinking. 936 00:50:54,885 --> 00:50:58,622 (pensive music) 937 00:50:58,688 --> 00:51:01,992 Dr. McMaster was the specialist that we had, 938 00:51:02,058 --> 00:51:05,395 the expert that we had who did an interview 939 00:51:05,462 --> 00:51:11,268 of Mr. MacLeod and gave his psychological opinion 940 00:51:11,334 --> 00:51:14,638 of Mr. MacLeod. 941 00:51:14,704 --> 00:51:19,876 - Dr. McMaster had a very Clark 942 00:51:14,704 --> 00:51:19,876 Kent look. 943 00:51:19,943 --> 00:51:23,980 He was very confident, he was very sure of himself 944 00:51:24,047 --> 00:51:28,084 and there would be no real debate I am going to give 945 00:51:28,151 --> 00:51:29,920 this testimony and we don't really need 946 00:51:29,986 --> 00:51:32,322 to discuss it because you don't know nearly as much 947 00:51:32,389 --> 00:51:35,892 as I do, so just take my answer and we're done. 948 00:51:35,959 --> 00:51:38,328 - So, Dr. McMaster who is routinely hired 949 00:51:38,395 --> 00:51:40,096 by the defense and the church. 950 00:51:40,163 --> 00:51:45,769 His job is to frankly to find any other reason why 951 00:51:45,836 --> 00:51:49,306 Rod had difficulty in life and or to say hey 952 00:51:49,372 --> 00:51:51,475 these weren't difficulties at all. 953 00:51:51,541 --> 00:51:55,078 - Dr. McMaster seemed to indicate 954 00:51:55,145 --> 00:51:57,314 that it would be highly unusual 955 00:51:57,380 --> 00:52:01,718 for someone to be that badly affected through 956 00:52:01,785 --> 00:52:03,720 the balance of his life. 957 00:52:03,787 --> 00:52:08,792 (somber music) 958 00:52:08,859 --> 00:52:12,128 - He believed that my sexual abuse 959 00:52:12,195 --> 00:52:18,935 was in the low end of the scale. 960 00:52:19,002 --> 00:52:23,807 In meeting other victims the effect that it has on them 961 00:52:23,874 --> 00:52:29,246 is so profound for so long, so fundamental, 962 00:52:29,312 --> 00:52:32,115 that I can't understand how a psychiatrist, 963 00:52:32,182 --> 00:52:37,654 how he could be so completely 964 00:52:37,721 --> 00:52:39,923 ignorant of the 965 00:52:39,990 --> 00:52:48,331 effects of that abuse. 966 00:52:48,398 --> 00:52:49,165 - [Rob] Okay, so Rod. 967 00:52:49,232 --> 00:52:50,700 You didn't like me attacking him. 968 00:52:50,767 --> 00:52:52,469 Do you still hold that opinion? 969 00:52:52,536 --> 00:52:57,807 - Well I don't like the idea of you being another-- 970 00:52:57,874 --> 00:52:58,808 - Susan. - Susan! 971 00:52:58,875 --> 00:53:01,011 So if you're going to attack him you have to do 972 00:53:01,077 --> 00:53:03,747 it with a-- - a sympathetic, polite. 973 00:53:03,813 --> 00:53:05,582 - Yeah, as though your not attacking him at all 974 00:53:05,649 --> 00:53:07,350 that you're just clarifying things. 975 00:53:07,417 --> 00:53:09,386 You know the way that judge did. 976 00:53:09,452 --> 00:53:11,121 (laughing) 977 00:53:11,187 --> 00:53:14,357 - Afternoon Doctor can we start with some agreement 978 00:53:14,424 --> 00:53:15,392 before we disagree. 979 00:53:15,458 --> 00:53:16,226 Because I'm sure we will. 980 00:53:16,293 --> 00:53:17,961 Can we agree that assessing victims 981 00:53:18,028 --> 00:53:20,664 of sexual abuse is not your main expertise. 982 00:53:20,730 --> 00:53:23,867 My interaction with Dr. McMaster 983 00:53:20,730 --> 00:53:23,867 involved 984 00:53:23,934 --> 00:53:27,771 a level of frustration and disdain, 985 00:53:27,837 --> 00:53:30,440 because this is a professional whose job 986 00:53:30,507 --> 00:53:32,242 is to aid the court. 987 00:53:32,309 --> 00:53:35,612 And he was really deep into advocate territory. 988 00:53:35,679 --> 00:53:38,281 Your focus has been assessing the people 989 00:53:38,348 --> 00:53:42,052 that make the victims, the offenders, right? 990 00:53:42,118 --> 00:53:44,421 And I think that fueled me to do 991 00:53:42,118 --> 00:53:44,421 a more 992 00:53:44,487 --> 00:53:46,122 aggressive and hopefully effective 993 00:53:46,189 --> 00:53:48,425 cross-examination of him. 994 00:53:48,491 --> 00:53:49,993 Remember Kathryn Thompson from Barrie? 995 00:53:50,060 --> 00:53:51,828 She's a babysitter that made child pornography 996 00:53:51,895 --> 00:53:53,463 with the children that she was entrusted to 997 00:53:53,530 --> 00:53:55,298 and also engaged in bestiality. 998 00:53:55,365 --> 00:53:56,132 - [Jeff] Yeah. 999 00:53:56,199 --> 00:53:57,701 - [Rob] You provided an opinion to keep her from being 1000 00:53:57,767 --> 00:54:00,000 a designated long term offender, 1001 00:53:57,767 --> 00:54:00,000 right? 1002 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:00,437 a designated long term offender, 1003 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:00,437 right? 1004 00:54:00,503 --> 00:54:03,273 - Rob Talach did not have any kind words really 1005 00:54:03,340 --> 00:54:05,909 for Dr. McMaster on his cross. 1006 00:54:05,976 --> 00:54:08,078 Talach was I think rather dismissive 1007 00:54:08,144 --> 00:54:11,781 in his cross-examination and he actually accused 1008 00:54:11,848 --> 00:54:14,284 Dr. McMaster of being some sort 1009 00:54:11,848 --> 00:54:14,284 of puppet 1010 00:54:14,351 --> 00:54:16,086 for the defense. 1011 00:54:16,152 --> 00:54:27,030 (somber music) 1012 00:54:27,097 --> 00:54:29,065 - Alright, so I'm gonna call Rod in a second. 1013 00:54:29,132 --> 00:54:33,970 But, I mean part of me says today went well enough 1014 00:54:34,037 --> 00:54:36,172 that I could end. 1015 00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:37,540 Because I mean just think about that for a minute 1016 00:54:37,607 --> 00:54:39,976 what if he goes home does his homework and comes back. 1017 00:54:40,043 --> 00:54:41,544 Wouldn't it be great in the morning to ask him 1018 00:54:41,611 --> 00:54:44,948 a couple questions that are key before he sees 1019 00:54:45,015 --> 00:54:48,818 that window to throw his repair 1020 00:54:45,015 --> 00:54:48,818 jobs in. 1021 00:54:48,885 --> 00:54:51,755 And then I just go boom I'm done. 1022 00:54:51,821 --> 00:54:53,189 - You know I think that the more 1023 00:54:51,821 --> 00:54:53,189 he talks, 1024 00:54:53,256 --> 00:54:57,260 the more the judge and the jury seem to turn against him. 1025 00:54:57,327 --> 00:55:00,697 Like when he suggests that Rod could derive 1026 00:55:00,764 --> 00:55:02,132 some self esteem. 1027 00:55:02,198 --> 00:55:04,267 - Oh my God. - From the abuse by Marshall. 1028 00:55:04,334 --> 00:55:08,638 The juror at the end totally lost it. 1029 00:55:08,705 --> 00:55:11,408 (phone rings) 1030 00:55:11,474 --> 00:55:12,409 - [Rod] Hello. 1031 00:55:12,475 --> 00:55:15,879 - Hey Rod, how are you? - Good Rob, how are you? 1032 00:55:15,945 --> 00:55:19,282 - A decision that we were just discussing is do I do 1033 00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:21,351 the short version tomorrow or the long version? 1034 00:55:21,418 --> 00:55:24,654 In other words, this doctor is probably gonna go home. 1035 00:55:24,721 --> 00:55:27,524 Actually he is gonna go home and he's gonna get 1036 00:55:27,590 --> 00:55:31,428 into the books and try and rebuild himself tomorrow. 1037 00:55:31,494 --> 00:55:34,030 - [Rod] I think we're in a 1038 00:55:31,494 --> 00:55:34,030 pretty good position right now. 1039 00:55:34,097 --> 00:55:37,634 I sure would hate to see that be 1040 00:55:34,097 --> 00:55:37,634 eroded. 1041 00:55:37,701 --> 00:55:39,402 Just cut it short and get rid of 1042 00:55:37,701 --> 00:55:39,402 him. 1043 00:55:39,469 --> 00:55:40,236 Dump him. 1044 00:55:40,303 --> 00:55:42,138 - Look I want you to leave with this thought. 1045 00:55:42,205 --> 00:55:45,675 Part of what you're doing here is to create ripple effect, 1046 00:55:45,742 --> 00:55:48,611 bigger good in society beyond this right? 1047 00:55:48,678 --> 00:55:49,979 - [Rod] Yeah, exactly. 1048 00:55:50,046 --> 00:55:54,150 - You have eliminated an enemy of the victim today 1049 00:55:54,217 --> 00:55:57,420 and I'm gonna say in closing this is the guy 1050 00:55:57,487 --> 00:56:00,824 that the church chose to represent them. 1051 00:56:00,890 --> 00:56:02,058 - [Rod] Yep. 1052 00:56:02,125 --> 00:56:04,994 - Says volumes of the lengths they would go to 1053 00:56:05,061 --> 00:56:07,697 to protect their brand. 1054 00:56:07,764 --> 00:56:10,500 - [Rod] Exactly, exactly. 1055 00:56:14,637 --> 00:56:17,173 - While father Marshall was still alive. 1056 00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:18,875 We moved for a court order to be 1057 00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:18,875 able 1058 00:56:18,942 --> 00:56:22,445 to videotape his evidence. 1059 00:56:22,512 --> 00:56:25,548 We wanted the Marshall video played as late as possible 1060 00:56:25,615 --> 00:56:26,783 in the trial so that would be one 1061 00:56:26,850 --> 00:56:29,619 of the last things that jurors would would hear from us 1062 00:56:29,686 --> 00:56:32,422 at least and even hear from the trial process 1063 00:56:32,489 --> 00:56:34,758 before they went to decide things so people 1064 00:56:34,824 --> 00:56:38,762 could see this sort of unrepentant cavalier 1065 00:56:38,828 --> 00:56:42,298 priest monster, in my words, give his evidence. 1066 00:56:42,365 --> 00:56:46,703 (pensive music) 1067 00:56:46,770 --> 00:56:50,406 State for the record your full name. 1068 00:56:50,473 --> 00:56:54,410 William Hodgson Maclin Marshall. 1069 00:56:54,477 --> 00:56:56,713 - Was quite something. 1070 00:56:56,780 --> 00:56:59,215 I'd never seen anything quite like that in a courtroom. 1071 00:56:59,282 --> 00:57:03,753 Here was a dead priest confessing to almost 1072 00:57:03,820 --> 00:57:06,689 four decades of crime. 1073 00:57:06,756 --> 00:57:08,057 - [Rob] There were 17 individuals 1074 00:57:08,124 --> 00:57:10,727 that you pled guilty to abuse. 1075 00:57:10,794 --> 00:57:12,228 - Yes. 1076 00:57:12,295 --> 00:57:14,364 - [Mary] They had the monitors up in the courtroom. 1077 00:57:14,430 --> 00:57:15,265 - Yes. 1078 00:57:15,331 --> 00:57:17,734 - Some of the spectators couldn't watch 1079 00:57:17,801 --> 00:57:20,170 because they'd been abused by him. 1080 00:57:20,236 --> 00:57:23,106 - [Rob] Most of these victims from the convictions 1081 00:57:23,173 --> 00:57:25,341 were boys when you sexually abused them? 1082 00:57:25,408 --> 00:57:27,043 - That's right. 1083 00:57:27,110 --> 00:57:29,179 - [Rob] And most of these victims were boys 1084 00:57:29,245 --> 00:57:33,750 at schools you were working at at the time you abused them? 1085 00:57:33,817 --> 00:57:36,553 - Most, yes. 1086 00:57:36,619 --> 00:57:40,723 - To have this evidence from the grave in front of you. 1087 00:57:40,790 --> 00:57:46,429 It was very powerful and the courtroom was silent. 1088 00:57:46,496 --> 00:57:48,698 - [Rob] And you would have shared your struggle 1089 00:57:48,765 --> 00:57:50,733 with abuse with the director? 1090 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:51,734 - Yes. 1091 00:57:51,801 --> 00:57:53,636 - [Rob] So this would be a fourth spiritual director 1092 00:57:53,703 --> 00:57:55,271 you made aware of this? 1093 00:57:55,338 --> 00:57:56,105 - Yes. 1094 00:57:56,172 --> 00:57:57,807 - [Rob] And again you weren't told to go seek 1095 00:57:57,874 --> 00:57:59,509 any outside assistance. 1096 00:57:59,576 --> 00:58:01,311 - No. 1097 00:58:01,377 --> 00:58:05,048 - I considered leaving. 1098 00:58:05,114 --> 00:58:09,052 I'm not even sure why I stayed. 1099 00:58:09,118 --> 00:58:14,557 Somehow I felt I just had to hear his words and see 1100 00:58:14,624 --> 00:58:19,062 what he thought of his own actions. 1101 00:58:19,128 --> 00:58:23,099 - [Rob] Did you abuse John Morand at Assumption? 1102 00:58:23,166 --> 00:58:26,870 - [Hod] I can't remember that at 1103 00:58:23,166 --> 00:58:26,870 all. 1104 00:58:26,936 --> 00:58:28,972 - [Rob] You abuse Jerry Boyle? 1105 00:58:29,038 --> 00:58:31,341 - Yes. 1106 00:58:31,407 --> 00:58:33,476 - [Rob] Is it fair to say that you can't remember all 1107 00:58:33,543 --> 00:58:36,446 your victims from St. Charles? 1108 00:58:36,512 --> 00:58:39,082 - I think so. 1109 00:58:39,148 --> 00:58:41,251 - [Rob] You remember abusing Rod 1110 00:58:39,148 --> 00:58:41,251 MacLeod 1111 00:58:41,317 --> 00:58:43,052 during those early years of St. 1112 00:58:41,317 --> 00:58:43,052 Charles? 1113 00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:46,189 - Yes, I do. 1114 00:58:46,256 --> 00:58:48,191 - When Rob Talach was putting 1115 00:58:48,258 --> 00:58:51,294 questions to him and asking about specific boys, 1116 00:58:51,361 --> 00:58:54,397 he said and it was kind of heartbreaking to me 1117 00:58:54,464 --> 00:58:57,066 that I don't remember him or I might have 1118 00:58:57,133 --> 00:58:59,802 remembered him or I could have possibly happened, 1119 00:58:59,869 --> 00:59:03,439 I mean there were so many instances, 1120 00:59:03,506 --> 00:59:08,811 so many young boys, he couldn't 1121 00:59:03,506 --> 00:59:08,811 even remember who they were. 1122 00:59:08,878 --> 00:59:11,214 - [Rod] Is it fair to say that almost every school 1123 00:59:11,281 --> 00:59:16,920 you taught at you would have sexually touched boys? 1124 00:59:16,986 --> 00:59:20,356 - With a few exceptions, yes. 1125 00:59:20,423 --> 00:59:21,591 - It was frankly shocking 1126 00:59:21,658 --> 00:59:25,028 because there wasn't a lot of denial in there. 1127 00:59:25,094 --> 00:59:27,563 I mean this is a man who had been protected by the church 1128 00:59:27,630 --> 00:59:30,099 over the decades every time he got caught. 1129 00:59:30,166 --> 00:59:33,403 And I think it built in him sort of a who cares 1130 00:59:33,469 --> 00:59:36,406 sort of attitude and he told it 1131 00:59:33,469 --> 00:59:36,406 as it was. 1132 00:59:36,472 --> 00:59:39,275 So this has been a problem that 1133 00:59:36,472 --> 00:59:39,275 spanned most of your career. 1134 00:59:39,342 --> 00:59:41,744 Is that fair? - That's right. 1135 00:59:41,811 --> 00:59:43,846 - [Rod] You were convicted of that along with other 1136 00:59:43,913 --> 00:59:47,717 crimes in June of 2011. 1137 00:59:47,784 --> 00:59:48,584 - That's right. 1138 00:59:48,651 --> 00:59:51,788 - No guilt for all those years. 1139 00:59:51,854 --> 00:59:54,791 No concern that he would be going to meet his maker 1140 00:59:54,857 --> 00:59:57,860 and have to answer for his crimes. 1141 00:59:57,927 --> 01:00:01,564 (dramatic music) 1142 01:00:01,631 --> 01:00:04,867 - Things were done the same way in those days 1143 01:00:04,934 --> 01:00:13,376 that they are now we didn't realize the seriousness 1144 01:00:13,443 --> 01:00:15,311 of the crime. 1145 01:00:15,378 --> 01:00:17,780 - [Rob] Well you knew in those days, sir, 1146 01:00:17,847 --> 01:00:19,615 that it was a criminal offense. 1147 01:00:19,682 --> 01:00:21,784 Correct? 1148 01:00:21,851 --> 01:00:23,119 - I imagine so. 1149 01:00:23,186 --> 01:00:25,588 - [Rob] You knew it was a 1150 01:00:23,186 --> 01:00:25,588 breach of the Ten Commandments. 1151 01:00:25,655 --> 01:00:26,422 - Yes. 1152 01:00:26,489 --> 01:00:27,623 - [Rob] You knew it was a breach of your vow 1153 01:00:27,690 --> 01:00:29,125 of chastity and celibacy. 1154 01:00:29,192 --> 01:00:29,959 - Yes. 1155 01:00:30,026 --> 01:00:32,628 - [Rob] You knew it was wrong. 1156 01:00:32,695 --> 01:00:48,745 - Yes. 1157 01:00:48,811 --> 01:00:52,749 - Okay, I'm just gonna put some thoughts here 1158 01:00:52,815 --> 01:00:58,855 and see how it goes on a very practical basis. 1159 01:00:58,921 --> 01:01:07,497 I already have a document here called Closing Thoughts. 1160 01:01:07,563 --> 01:01:14,137 I gotta put this in plain English. 1161 01:01:14,203 --> 01:01:15,471 How's this line sound? 1162 01:01:15,538 --> 01:01:18,307 This will be the last time I call him the plaintiff. 1163 01:01:18,374 --> 01:01:21,644 He is Rod to me and I suspect after hearing so much 1164 01:01:21,711 --> 01:01:25,481 about his life he should be Rod to you as well. 1165 01:01:25,548 --> 01:01:29,018 I think the more human he is to 1166 01:01:25,548 --> 01:01:29,018 them. 1167 01:01:29,085 --> 01:01:31,220 The more difficult it is for them to be harsh 1168 01:01:31,287 --> 01:01:33,790 in the figures. 1169 01:01:33,856 --> 01:01:35,892 The hope is that he will walk this courtroom 1170 01:01:35,958 --> 01:01:41,164 no longer victimized but finally vindicated. 1171 01:01:41,230 --> 01:01:43,433 This question deals with additional money based on 1172 01:01:43,499 --> 01:01:45,735 the nature of what Rod endured. 1173 01:01:45,802 --> 01:01:49,272 It allows more money on top of the general damages. 1174 01:01:49,338 --> 01:01:53,176 This is allowed if what Rod endured was humiliating, 1175 01:01:53,242 --> 01:01:56,012 oppressive or undignified. 1176 01:01:56,079 --> 01:01:57,947 We all agree that he endured sexual abuse 1177 01:01:58,014 --> 01:01:59,849 for four years approximately 50 1178 01:01:58,014 --> 01:01:59,849 times. 1179 01:01:59,916 --> 01:02:01,484 We all agree that included fondling, 1180 01:02:01,551 --> 01:02:03,252 oral sex and ejaculation. 1181 01:02:03,319 --> 01:02:05,254 The defendant in fact agrees that aggravated 1182 01:02:05,321 --> 01:02:07,857 damages do apply to Rod. 1183 01:02:07,924 --> 01:02:12,628 This question is simply one of how much. 1184 01:02:12,695 --> 01:02:17,133 ♪ Here I am Lord ♪ 1185 01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:21,637 ♪ Is it I Lord ♪ 1186 01:02:21,704 --> 01:02:30,313 ♪ I have heard You calling in the night ♪ 1187 01:02:30,379 --> 01:02:36,385 ♪ I will go Lord ♪ ♪ Here I am Lord ♪ 1188 01:02:36,452 --> 01:02:41,124 ♪ Waiting for you ♪ 1189 01:02:41,190 --> 01:02:50,399 ♪ But you sent Hod Marshall in the night ♪ 1190 01:02:50,466 --> 01:02:55,238 ♪ He abused me ♪ 1191 01:02:55,304 --> 01:03:00,543 ♪ And you let him ♪ 1192 01:03:00,610 --> 01:03:09,352 ♪ You let him abuse me in the night ♪ 1193 01:03:09,418 --> 01:03:13,089 ♪ Yes he broke me ♪ 1194 01:03:13,156 --> 01:03:19,695 (people chatting) 1195 01:03:19,762 --> 01:03:22,632 - You're right, they should be in jail. 1196 01:03:22,698 --> 01:03:24,367 - [Patrick] Absolutely. 1197 01:03:24,433 --> 01:03:25,635 I'm sorry, good morning. 1198 01:03:25,701 --> 01:03:30,000 - Good morning, how can I share 1199 01:03:25,701 --> 01:03:30,000 your pain? 1200 01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:30,139 - Good morning, how can I share 1201 01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:30,139 your pain? 1202 01:03:30,206 --> 01:03:32,375 - You can tell me why 1203 01:03:32,441 --> 01:03:35,211 the church fights against the victims instead 1204 01:03:35,278 --> 01:03:38,948 of against the abusers? 1205 01:03:39,015 --> 01:03:40,016 - I wish I could. 1206 01:03:40,082 --> 01:03:41,984 I wish I could. - I wish you could too. 1207 01:03:42,051 --> 01:03:43,586 - I would have to know it in order to be 1208 01:03:43,653 --> 01:03:45,154 able to tell you and I can't. 1209 01:03:45,221 --> 01:03:47,623 - This is a fair answer. - To me it's... 1210 01:03:47,690 --> 01:03:49,258 - [Patrick] Why does it continue? 1211 01:03:49,325 --> 01:03:50,326 - That's what I mean it's-- 1212 01:03:50,393 --> 01:03:53,629 - [Patrick] How does it get stopped? 1213 01:03:53,696 --> 01:03:56,666 - The system has to change totally. 1214 01:03:56,732 --> 01:03:58,668 - That is a start. 1215 01:03:58,734 --> 01:04:00,000 I've gone to four churches this 1216 01:03:58,734 --> 01:04:00,000 weekend 1217 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:00,469 I've gone to four churches this 1218 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:00,469 weekend 1219 01:04:00,536 --> 01:04:01,837 because I knew the bishop's statement was 1220 01:04:01,904 --> 01:04:02,939 going to be put out. 1221 01:04:03,005 --> 01:04:04,540 Was it read here today or? 1222 01:04:04,607 --> 01:04:05,374 - No we didn't read it. 1223 01:04:05,441 --> 01:04:06,943 We read it on Thursday that's what they asked us 1224 01:04:07,009 --> 01:04:08,744 to do and it's in the bulletins 1225 01:04:07,009 --> 01:04:08,744 today. 1226 01:04:08,811 --> 01:04:09,579 - Yes. 1227 01:04:09,645 --> 01:04:14,884 - So, I talked about it, but I didn't read it. 1228 01:04:14,951 --> 01:04:15,751 - You don't wanna keep having 1229 01:04:15,818 --> 01:04:17,787 to talk about something over and over but until 1230 01:04:17,853 --> 01:04:21,791 it's fixed that's what you have 1231 01:04:17,853 --> 01:04:21,791 to do. 1232 01:04:21,857 --> 01:04:24,293 Because even right today victims come forward 1233 01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,129 and they are not believed. 1234 01:04:27,196 --> 01:04:30,000 And the church brings out their 1235 01:04:27,196 --> 01:04:30,000 lawyers and they fight 'em. 1236 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:31,367 And the church brings out their 1237 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:31,367 lawyers and they fight 'em. 1238 01:04:31,434 --> 01:04:33,069 They fought me. 1239 01:04:33,135 --> 01:04:45,581 (somber music) 1240 01:04:45,648 --> 01:04:48,517 - The closing arguments in Rod MacLeod's case 1241 01:04:48,584 --> 01:04:50,253 were quite different. 1242 01:04:50,319 --> 01:04:54,156 The church's side accepted that 1243 01:04:50,319 --> 01:04:54,156 Rod MacLeod had been abused 1244 01:04:54,223 --> 01:04:56,525 to a certain degree. 1245 01:04:56,592 --> 01:05:00,596 But, clearly were pushing back on any notion 1246 01:05:00,663 --> 01:05:05,935 that it was a lifelong kind of suffering that would 1247 01:05:06,002 --> 01:05:09,438 impact financial earnings. 1248 01:05:09,505 --> 01:05:15,211 That was kind of my take on the defense's close. 1249 01:05:15,278 --> 01:05:20,950 Rob Talach on the other hand pressed a lot of 1250 01:05:21,017 --> 01:05:25,054 phrases and buttons that I thought a jury might 1251 01:05:25,121 --> 01:05:27,857 really listen to. 1252 01:05:27,923 --> 01:05:30,760 - [Rob] Members of the jury, you may recall that I put 1253 01:05:30,826 --> 01:05:34,363 to Father Katulski the example of Marshall being 1254 01:05:34,430 --> 01:05:36,999 like a toxic barrel of waste. 1255 01:05:37,066 --> 01:05:40,469 And every time he abused, that barrel leaked 1256 01:05:40,536 --> 01:05:43,572 and the church's reaction was simply to move 1257 01:05:43,639 --> 01:05:47,009 that barrel to new communities and not tell them 1258 01:05:47,076 --> 01:05:52,148 of the waste that was in their backyard. 1259 01:05:52,214 --> 01:05:53,416 - It's hard to tell by looking 1260 01:05:53,482 --> 01:05:55,818 at their faces but I think they were hanging on 1261 01:05:55,885 --> 01:06:00,389 to these kind of images and making something 1262 01:06:00,456 --> 01:06:05,161 that can be big and awful like sexual assault 1263 01:06:05,227 --> 01:06:07,663 a little more understandable when he put it in those terms 1264 01:06:07,730 --> 01:06:10,666 and he really did hammer on the amount of time 1265 01:06:10,733 --> 01:06:14,236 that Father Marshall was allowed to continue 1266 01:06:14,303 --> 01:06:15,871 his abuse which was decades, 1267 01:06:15,938 --> 01:06:17,173 and decades, and decades. 1268 01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:19,709 And that it could have been stopped in the 1940s 1269 01:06:19,775 --> 01:06:23,179 had anyone had any guts. 1270 01:06:23,245 --> 01:06:26,716 - [Rob] Years later when the extent of that leak 1271 01:06:26,782 --> 01:06:29,585 and a number of communities involved was known 1272 01:06:29,652 --> 01:06:34,056 to the church they didn't go back and say, hey, 1273 01:06:34,123 --> 01:06:36,392 there was something bad here in your community that might 1274 01:06:36,459 --> 01:06:38,127 have hurt your children. 1275 01:06:38,194 --> 01:06:39,495 We're here to help. 1276 01:06:39,562 --> 01:06:41,397 We're here to clean it up. 1277 01:06:41,464 --> 01:06:45,601 There was none of that. 1278 01:06:45,668 --> 01:06:47,803 - At the end of the trial when all of the evidence 1279 01:06:47,870 --> 01:06:50,072 had been presented and it was about to be handed 1280 01:06:50,139 --> 01:06:51,307 over to the jury. 1281 01:06:51,374 --> 01:06:54,810 I felt relieved and I felt relieved for one reason, 1282 01:06:54,877 --> 01:06:58,581 that this was gonna be over and we could all 1283 01:06:58,647 --> 01:06:59,949 get out of there. 1284 01:07:00,015 --> 01:07:04,553 We could all get out of the tomb. 1285 01:07:04,620 --> 01:07:08,824 - As the jury is about to 1286 01:07:04,620 --> 01:07:08,824 retire at the end of the trial. 1287 01:07:08,891 --> 01:07:11,961 I'm thinking that we have done everything 1288 01:07:12,027 --> 01:07:14,096 that we possibly could do. 1289 01:07:14,163 --> 01:07:16,732 I was very confident of that. 1290 01:07:16,799 --> 01:07:21,237 What I was not confident of was how the jury would react 1291 01:07:21,303 --> 01:07:23,339 to everything that had been said. 1292 01:07:23,406 --> 01:07:27,910 They could come back and they could fall completely 1293 01:07:27,977 --> 01:07:32,715 on the side of the defense and there'd be absolutely 1294 01:07:32,782 --> 01:07:35,785 nothing you could do about it. 1295 01:07:35,851 --> 01:07:39,455 You're thinking boy this could be really bad. 1296 01:07:39,522 --> 01:07:55,037 (pensive music) 1297 01:08:09,351 --> 01:08:11,654 - [Rob] Waiting for the verdict is nerve wracking 1298 01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:18,928 and the longer the verdict takes the more nerve wracking. 1299 01:08:18,994 --> 01:08:22,331 - [Aaron] You start to wondering 1300 01:08:18,994 --> 01:08:22,331 what are they thinking? 1301 01:08:22,398 --> 01:08:25,835 It could go any way it could be 1302 01:08:22,398 --> 01:08:25,835 a big win. 1303 01:08:25,901 --> 01:08:30,172 It could be a big loss. 1304 01:08:30,239 --> 01:08:32,708 - [Rod] There was really nothing that we could do. 1305 01:08:32,775 --> 01:08:40,149 And so it was just a matter of passing the time. 1306 01:08:40,216 --> 01:08:42,151 - Look at our focus group. 1307 01:08:42,218 --> 01:08:45,321 They took that we gave them an hour. 1308 01:08:45,387 --> 01:08:47,756 - [Rod] Yeah but we didn't give them information, 1309 01:08:47,823 --> 01:08:49,258 the kind of information-- - No that's right. 1310 01:08:49,325 --> 01:08:51,994 That's what I'm getting at they took their full hour. 1311 01:08:52,061 --> 01:08:53,395 - Oh yeah. - They kind of wrote off 1312 01:08:53,462 --> 01:08:55,231 the punitive question and just five minutes. 1313 01:08:55,297 --> 01:08:56,732 Yeah, a million. 1314 01:08:56,799 --> 01:08:59,902 But they took a lot of time 1315 01:08:56,799 --> 01:08:59,902 considering how little they got. 1316 01:08:59,969 --> 01:09:02,671 They got to put our evidence and they took an hour of time. 1317 01:09:02,738 --> 01:09:04,840 So hopefully these folks don't take three weeks. 1318 01:09:04,907 --> 01:09:11,447 (laughing) 1319 01:09:11,514 --> 01:09:14,083 I can only hope that the religious beliefs 1320 01:09:14,149 --> 01:09:16,952 of this jury help us. 1321 01:09:17,019 --> 01:09:19,321 They know that this, oh it's all 1322 01:09:17,019 --> 01:09:19,321 okay, 1323 01:09:19,388 --> 01:09:21,490 just go pray is bullshit. 1324 01:09:21,557 --> 01:09:23,859 There's no stricter regime than the Catholic Church 1325 01:09:23,926 --> 01:09:26,128 in the '50s. 1326 01:09:26,195 --> 01:09:28,030 - [Priest] In the name of the Father and of the Son 1327 01:09:28,097 --> 01:09:30,799 and of the Holy Spirit the grace of Our Lord 1328 01:09:30,866 --> 01:09:34,003 Jesus Christ the love of God and the communion 1329 01:09:34,069 --> 01:09:36,972 of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 1330 01:09:37,039 --> 01:09:38,240 - [Congregant] And with your spirit. 1331 01:09:38,307 --> 01:09:41,610 Amen. 1332 01:09:41,677 --> 01:09:46,248 - Last week after the 11 o'clock 1333 01:09:41,677 --> 01:09:46,248 mass. 1334 01:09:46,315 --> 01:09:50,386 I was rather surprised 'cause when I walked out. 1335 01:09:50,452 --> 01:09:54,356 Onto the steps, down on the sidewalk at the base 1336 01:09:54,423 --> 01:09:59,061 of the steps stood a man holding 1337 01:09:54,423 --> 01:09:59,061 a sign. 1338 01:09:59,128 --> 01:10:04,333 The victim of clergy sex abuse. 1339 01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:10,506 And I didn't quite know what to say or what to do. 1340 01:10:10,573 --> 01:10:14,143 Patrick McMahon was abused by Father Hod Marshall, 1341 01:10:14,209 --> 01:10:16,078 a Basilian who was principal here 1342 01:10:16,145 --> 01:10:20,015 at Assumption and then Holy Names and he was a good, 1343 01:10:20,082 --> 01:10:23,385 a close family friend of theirs. 1344 01:10:23,452 --> 01:10:24,987 And he abused him over a number 1345 01:10:23,452 --> 01:10:24,987 of years 1346 01:10:25,054 --> 01:10:28,557 and he's in deep pain. 1347 01:10:28,624 --> 01:10:30,000 And his sign was written on both 1348 01:10:28,624 --> 01:10:30,000 sides, 1349 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:31,193 And his sign was written on both 1350 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:31,193 sides, 1351 01:10:31,260 --> 01:10:33,529 two different things a quote from Pope Francis 1352 01:10:33,596 --> 01:10:35,497 and then something of his own. 1353 01:10:35,564 --> 01:10:40,569 And on one side, it said: 1354 01:10:40,636 --> 01:10:45,174 Ask, how you can share in my pain? 1355 01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,777 I think that is one of the biggest challenges 1356 01:10:48,844 --> 01:10:52,715 of us who call ourselves Christian, 1357 01:10:52,781 --> 01:10:59,722 is to share in someone else's pain. 1358 01:10:59,788 --> 01:11:03,025 I think Patrick did me a great favor by giving me 1359 01:11:03,092 --> 01:11:05,260 the cue card right in front of me. 1360 01:11:05,327 --> 01:11:09,465 Ask, how you can share in my pain? 1361 01:11:09,531 --> 01:11:15,004 My prayer is that I might keep that cue card in front of me. 1362 01:11:15,070 --> 01:11:20,242 And ask others how I can share in their pain. 1363 01:11:20,309 --> 01:11:27,650 ♪ Oh God is grand ♪ 1364 01:11:27,716 --> 01:11:34,023 ♪ The spirit of the Father remembers you ♪ 1365 01:11:34,089 --> 01:11:40,362 ♪ And Father, we thank you for your feats ♪ 1366 01:11:40,429 --> 01:11:45,734 ♪ And may his feats be more bountiful ♪ 1367 01:11:45,801 --> 01:11:52,775 ♪ His people blessed for years ♪ 1368 01:11:52,841 --> 01:11:56,879 ♪ And we will be thankful ♪ 1369 01:11:56,945 --> 01:12:10,859 (somber music) 1370 01:12:10,926 --> 01:12:16,699 (people chatting) 1371 01:12:16,765 --> 01:12:18,767 - Here's there! 1372 01:12:31,346 --> 01:12:34,783 - Thank you for coming. 1373 01:12:34,850 --> 01:12:36,852 - Thank you again for speaking with me and-- 1374 01:12:36,919 --> 01:12:38,887 - I shouldn't have hugged you without asking. 1375 01:12:38,954 --> 01:12:39,722 - It's okay. 1376 01:12:39,788 --> 01:12:41,190 - I don't know much about your history 1377 01:12:41,256 --> 01:12:42,024 but I'm sorry. - No, that's not the problem. 1378 01:12:42,091 --> 01:12:43,659 I couldn't hug you back properly holding a sign 1379 01:12:43,726 --> 01:12:47,663 but I appreciate it and I think well of you. 1380 01:12:47,730 --> 01:12:48,497 - Thank you. 1381 01:12:48,564 --> 01:12:49,364 Same here. 1382 01:12:49,431 --> 01:12:51,066 I admire your courage immensely. 1383 01:12:51,133 --> 01:12:52,367 - Thank you. 1384 01:12:52,434 --> 01:12:54,937 - If there's, well, whatever I can. 1385 01:12:55,003 --> 01:12:57,005 Whenever I can do of service you let me know. 1386 01:12:57,072 --> 01:12:58,006 - Okay, I will do that. 1387 01:12:58,073 --> 01:13:01,410 - Keep in touch, okay? 1388 01:13:21,063 --> 01:13:25,134 - I'm not going to stop because they haven't stopped. 1389 01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:29,571 When they stop, maybe I'll stop, but they're abusing. 1390 01:13:29,638 --> 01:13:30,873 They're covering it up. 1391 01:13:30,939 --> 01:13:32,908 They're lying, they're cheating. 1392 01:13:32,975 --> 01:13:35,344 They're fighting against the victims. 1393 01:13:35,410 --> 01:13:37,412 So as long as they keep doing that, 1394 01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:38,881 I'll keep doing what I'm doing. 1395 01:13:38,947 --> 01:13:40,048 I'll be in court. 1396 01:13:40,115 --> 01:13:41,517 I'll be outside churches. 1397 01:13:41,583 --> 01:13:45,254 I'll be on television and until they if they get 1398 01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:51,760 tired of me they can stop doing what they're doing. 1399 01:13:51,827 --> 01:13:53,395 - There'll be a lot of cutting the baby in half 1400 01:13:53,462 --> 01:14:00,302 to get the thing done right. 1401 01:14:00,369 --> 01:14:01,804 - Because it's taking so long. 1402 01:14:01,870 --> 01:14:05,140 There's got to be at least two people. 1403 01:14:05,207 --> 01:14:10,245 Two or three against three or four. 1404 01:14:10,312 --> 01:14:13,315 - Well the first hour was 1405 01:14:10,312 --> 01:14:13,315 probably completely ineffective. 1406 01:14:13,382 --> 01:14:15,184 Just bumbling around people talking about 1407 01:14:15,250 --> 01:14:18,520 the thing that they were most moved by, duh, duh, duh, 1408 01:14:18,587 --> 01:14:20,722 and just some airing of grievances type thing. 1409 01:14:20,789 --> 01:14:22,891 And then depending on the foreman, 1410 01:14:22,958 --> 01:14:24,259 you know then they get down to work. 1411 01:14:24,326 --> 01:14:28,030 By that time it's 10:30 and they're still taking 1412 01:14:28,096 --> 01:14:30,000 their silly little coffee 1413 01:14:28,096 --> 01:14:30,000 breaks and stuff I'm sure of it. 1414 01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:37,272 their silly little coffee 1415 01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:37,272 breaks and stuff I'm sure of it. 1416 01:14:37,339 --> 01:14:42,010 God could you imagine having a hung jury. 1417 01:14:42,077 --> 01:14:44,880 We were pretty confident on a quick turnaround 1418 01:14:44,947 --> 01:14:49,051 and I think it was we went into the afternoon. 1419 01:14:49,117 --> 01:14:53,388 We were getting nervous. 1420 01:14:53,455 --> 01:14:56,158 It got pretty intense by the time we got the phone call 1421 01:14:56,225 --> 01:14:58,427 saying the jury was back in. 1422 01:14:58,493 --> 01:15:01,363 (phone rings) 1423 01:15:01,430 --> 01:15:03,799 Hello, Rob speaking. 1424 01:15:03,866 --> 01:15:08,136 (woman on phone speaks faintly) 1425 01:15:08,203 --> 01:15:09,104 Okay. 1426 01:15:09,171 --> 01:15:11,139 We are on our way over where we'll be there 1427 01:15:11,206 --> 01:15:13,242 within five minutes. 1428 01:15:13,308 --> 01:15:15,310 We've got a verdict. 1429 01:15:15,377 --> 01:15:22,718 Let's roll. 1430 01:15:22,784 --> 01:15:38,767 (pensive music) 1431 01:15:38,834 --> 01:15:44,640 - And then finally the jury reached a verdict 1432 01:15:44,706 --> 01:15:47,843 I could just tell by the look on 1433 01:15:44,706 --> 01:15:47,843 her face 1434 01:15:47,910 --> 01:15:50,012 when she stood up to give 1435 01:15:50,078 --> 01:15:52,681 the verdict that I knew it was not going to be 1436 01:15:52,748 --> 01:15:56,184 a pleasant experience and I was not disappointed 1437 01:15:56,251 --> 01:16:00,188 in that at all. 1438 01:16:00,255 --> 01:16:02,424 - At what amount if any do you assess the claim 1439 01:16:02,491 --> 01:16:04,726 for past loss of income? 1440 01:16:04,793 --> 01:16:07,029 $0. 1441 01:16:07,095 --> 01:16:09,665 At what amount if any do you assess the claim 1442 01:16:09,731 --> 01:16:11,700 for future loss of income? 1443 01:16:11,767 --> 01:16:15,237 $0. 1444 01:16:15,304 --> 01:16:16,939 At what amount do you assess the 1445 01:16:15,304 --> 01:16:16,939 claim 1446 01:16:17,005 --> 01:16:18,807 for general damages? 1447 01:16:18,874 --> 01:16:21,743 $350,000. 1448 01:16:21,810 --> 01:16:23,845 At what amount do you assess the 1449 01:16:21,810 --> 01:16:23,845 claim 1450 01:16:23,912 --> 01:16:25,981 for aggravated damages? 1451 01:16:26,048 --> 01:16:28,884 $75,000. 1452 01:16:28,951 --> 01:16:31,320 At what amount do you award as punitive damages 1453 01:16:31,386 --> 01:16:34,623 against the Basilian Fathers of 1454 01:16:31,386 --> 01:16:34,623 Toronto? 1455 01:16:34,690 --> 01:16:37,326 $500,000. 1456 01:16:37,392 --> 01:16:42,064 At what amount if any do you 1457 01:16:37,392 --> 01:16:42,064 award for lump sum income loss? 1458 01:16:42,130 --> 01:16:48,370 $ 1,588,781. 1459 01:16:48,437 --> 01:16:49,204 - [Aaron] Awesome! 1460 01:16:49,271 --> 01:16:50,372 This changes everything. 1461 01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:52,174 - It changes everything. - Changes everything! 1462 01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:53,909 - Yeah, it's unbelievable. 1463 01:16:53,976 --> 01:16:57,245 (laughing) 1464 01:16:57,312 --> 01:17:02,985 Well the grand total was $2,570,000 1465 01:17:03,051 --> 01:17:05,220 - [Rob] That judgment was more money than all my other 1466 01:17:05,287 --> 01:17:07,956 judgments I've ever taken combined. 1467 01:17:08,023 --> 01:17:10,492 - Just amazing! (laughing) 1468 01:17:10,559 --> 01:17:14,096 - Astronomical a record breaker. 1469 01:17:14,162 --> 01:17:18,233 I think they got it bang on. 1470 01:17:18,300 --> 01:17:20,702 500 just right in punitive, 1471 01:17:20,769 --> 01:17:22,637 because if they go over a million, 1472 01:17:22,704 --> 01:17:23,872 they could say it's absurd. 1473 01:17:23,939 --> 01:17:26,608 - That was glorious. 1474 01:17:26,675 --> 01:17:27,876 $2 1/2 million dollars. 1475 01:17:27,943 --> 01:17:29,945 And here's exactly what you did. 1476 01:17:30,012 --> 01:17:34,049 We know you did it and we know you knew you were doing it. 1477 01:17:34,116 --> 01:17:35,050 That was victory. 1478 01:17:35,117 --> 01:17:38,520 And that was what I was there for. 1479 01:17:38,587 --> 01:17:39,821 - [Rob] All right. 1480 01:17:39,888 --> 01:17:42,157 Let's go get a drink. - Perfect! 1481 01:17:42,224 --> 01:17:46,161 (triumphant music) 1482 01:17:46,228 --> 01:17:48,964 - It went beyond what I even speculated 1483 01:17:49,031 --> 01:17:52,901 would be the results. 1484 01:17:52,968 --> 01:17:54,403 It was hard. 1485 01:17:54,469 --> 01:17:56,004 It was hard. 1486 01:17:56,071 --> 01:18:00,642 It was another moment of 1487 01:18:00,709 --> 01:18:03,145 shame that I experienced 1488 01:18:03,211 --> 01:18:08,617 and felt and a profound sadness 1489 01:18:08,683 --> 01:18:09,451 that I always 1490 01:18:09,518 --> 01:18:12,087 have and always carry with me with regards 1491 01:18:12,154 --> 01:18:18,093 to these matters that we're talking dollars and cents 1492 01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:23,098 which does not bring about the healing 1493 01:18:23,165 --> 01:18:27,803 that the person really needs. 1494 01:18:27,869 --> 01:18:31,306 - [Rod] I hope this outcome will cause the Basilians. 1495 01:18:31,373 --> 01:18:35,877 To rethink their position and how they treat 1496 01:18:35,944 --> 01:18:38,447 sex abuse victims. 1497 01:18:38,513 --> 01:18:42,317 Stop listening to their legal experts and listen 1498 01:18:42,384 --> 01:18:44,186 to their hearts. 1499 01:18:44,252 --> 01:18:47,355 And the teachings of Jesus Christ. 1500 01:18:47,422 --> 01:18:48,190 - Oh my God, it's awesome. 1501 01:18:48,256 --> 01:18:49,991 - This represents the largest award of punitive 1502 01:18:50,058 --> 01:18:52,461 damages against the Catholic Church in Canada 1503 01:18:52,527 --> 01:18:53,995 and it's the first time that a jury of average 1504 01:18:54,062 --> 01:18:55,730 citizens have judged the church's handling 1505 01:18:55,797 --> 01:18:57,232 of sexual abuse a priest. 1506 01:18:57,299 --> 01:18:58,834 It marks a turning point for the church in Canada 1507 01:18:58,900 --> 01:19:01,470 who to date have only been required to pay 1508 01:19:01,536 --> 01:19:03,839 for the damage they caused victims but have never 1509 01:19:03,905 --> 01:19:05,440 been fined or punished for their institutional 1510 01:19:05,507 --> 01:19:06,508 conduct and complicity. 1511 01:19:06,575 --> 01:19:08,310 The hope is that this outcome will motivate 1512 01:19:08,376 --> 01:19:10,145 change within the Catholic Church. 1513 01:19:10,212 --> 01:19:13,415 Boomy! 1514 01:19:13,482 --> 01:19:14,216 Come on, dude. 1515 01:19:14,282 --> 01:19:15,817 - [Aaron] Come on, come on! 1516 01:19:15,884 --> 01:19:19,287 - [Rod] Alright. 1517 01:19:19,354 --> 01:19:22,691 - [Aaron] You're amazing, congratulations. 1518 01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:41,376 - [Matt] When I heard you testify I heard you say 1519 01:19:41,443 --> 01:19:42,210 very good things. 1520 01:19:42,277 --> 01:19:43,178 You were saying we're going to take 1521 01:19:43,245 --> 01:19:44,179 responsibility for this. 1522 01:19:44,246 --> 01:19:45,914 We have the ability to pay for this. 1523 01:19:45,981 --> 01:19:47,949 We acknowledge this. 1524 01:19:48,016 --> 01:19:58,460 Why did you appeal? 1525 01:19:58,527 --> 01:20:01,696 - I don't know how much of that question I should answer. 1526 01:20:01,763 --> 01:20:02,497 - [Lawyer] I would advise not 1527 01:20:02,564 --> 01:20:04,566 to answer that question. - That's right. 1528 01:20:04,633 --> 01:20:08,236 - Because it's under study. - That's right. 1529 01:20:08,303 --> 01:20:11,139 (somber music) 1530 01:20:11,206 --> 01:20:19,281 (bell rings) 1531 01:20:19,347 --> 01:20:22,651 - The appeal was not a surprise. 1532 01:20:22,717 --> 01:20:27,389 Instead of saying, oh my God look at what we have done. 1533 01:20:27,455 --> 01:20:30,025 Look at what we've done and look at the reaction 1534 01:20:30,091 --> 01:20:32,260 of the public. 1535 01:20:32,327 --> 01:20:35,964 What we've done is so wrong. 1536 01:20:36,031 --> 01:20:40,135 We must make amends. 1537 01:20:40,202 --> 01:20:42,504 But no that's not what they did. 1538 01:20:42,571 --> 01:20:45,006 They went right back to their old behavior. 1539 01:20:45,073 --> 01:20:47,008 Oh there's a possibility that we may be able 1540 01:20:47,075 --> 01:20:48,276 to claw some of this back. 1541 01:20:48,343 --> 01:20:53,315 Let's take it. 1542 01:20:53,381 --> 01:20:57,519 When it came right down to it, they reacted in a way 1543 01:20:57,586 --> 01:21:03,558 in which any profit making organization would. 1544 01:21:03,625 --> 01:21:08,430 Never will you see the change come from inside the church. 1545 01:21:08,496 --> 01:21:14,970 (melancholic music) 1546 01:21:15,036 --> 01:21:16,438 - [Mike] This has been 10 years in the making, 1547 01:21:16,504 --> 01:21:18,106 here's to all our friendship. 1548 01:21:18,173 --> 01:21:19,374 - Cheers. - Cheers! 1549 01:21:19,441 --> 01:21:20,742 Let's keep doing it, cheers. 1550 01:21:20,809 --> 01:21:22,010 - Cheers. 1551 01:21:22,077 --> 01:21:23,144 - [Patron] Cheers. 1552 01:21:23,211 --> 01:21:28,149 - My whole purpose of going to trial was not money. 1553 01:21:28,216 --> 01:21:30,000 My whole purpose was to get the 1554 01:21:28,216 --> 01:21:30,000 story out 1555 01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:31,586 My whole purpose was to get the 1556 01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:31,586 story out 1557 01:21:31,653 --> 01:21:35,590 into the public as much as I possibly could. 1558 01:21:35,657 --> 01:21:38,994 Not just for myself but for all 1559 01:21:35,657 --> 01:21:38,994 the others 1560 01:21:39,060 --> 01:21:45,267 who had been sexually abused just as I had. 1561 01:21:45,333 --> 01:21:46,968 And that to me was the best thing 1562 01:21:47,035 --> 01:21:51,139 that could have happened out of this trial. 1563 01:21:51,206 --> 01:22:09,224 (somber music) 1564 01:22:17,999 --> 01:22:33,348 ♪