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Before I started making this film, I
knew nothing about Bobby Kennedy.

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A privileged guy with 10 kids who became
a hero to black and Hispanic

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communities and promised to heal a
divided America.

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Then a year before I was born, he was
assassinated.

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This is the story of Kennedy and his
assassin.

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The official story, the evidence
against, and the others who may have

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involved.

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This was America in April 1968, in the
days after Martin Luther King was

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assassinated. Washington burned and days
of riots left the city in ruins.

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This film was shot by the National Guard
as they kept order in the streets.

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On the soundtrack, a priest urges people
to prayer.

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Lord have mercy.

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Lord have mercy.

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Christ have mercy.

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Lord have mercy.

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Almighty God.

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Look with mercy upon your family.

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Guide and guard us in body and soul by
your bounteous grace and protection.

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I'm telling you, we can have fascism
tomorrow if the whole community does not

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act now and recognize the threat to
white folks of what is happening in the

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black community.

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As American cities burned, Robert
Kennedy stepped forward to heal a

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nation. When King was killed, Kennedy
was...

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to speak to a large outdoor group of
blacks in the inner city in

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And they didn't know that King had been
shot.

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God knows that if they could have had
guns, they would have been violent.

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He steps up to this young white
privileged guy, and he said, I have bad

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tell you.

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Martin Luther King has been killed in
Memphis. And this, oh, goes over the

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crowd. For those of you who are black
and are tempted to be filled with

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hatred and...

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of the injustice of such an act against
all white people.

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I would only say that I can also feel in
my own heart the same kind of feeling.

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I had a member of my family killed, but
he was killed by a white man.

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My favorite poet was Aeschylus, and he
once wrote, even in our sleep,

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Pain which cannot forget falls drop by
drop upon the heart until in

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our own despair against our will comes
wisdom through the awful

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grace of God.

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What we need in the United States is not
violence and lawlessness but is love

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and wisdom and compassion toward one
another.

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Feeling of justice toward those who
still suffer.

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within our country, whether they be
white or whether they be black.

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Incredibly eloquent.

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Absolutely off the top of his head. This
was no spin.

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This was no counselor.

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No people crafting his words. This was
him.

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That was his great moment.

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And I think that's the kind of thing we
lost with both King and Kennedy, the two

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of them together.

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The ability to ring the bell, to prick
the conscience of the country, to ask us

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to be better than ourselves.

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The next day, Kennedy spoke in Cleveland
about assassination.

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No one, no matter where he lives or what
he does, can be certain who next will

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suffer from some senseless act of
bloodshed.

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And yet it goes on and on and on in this
country of ours.

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Two months later, he too would be
assassinated.

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When John Kennedy was elected president
in 1960, Bobby became his right -hand

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man, serving as Attorney General and
overseeing the secret war on Castro.

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But after his brother died, he was
slowly transformed into a gentler, more

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compassionate figure.

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A 17 -minute ovation at the 1964
Democratic Convention brought his raw

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to the American public.

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Distrustful and marginalized by
President Johnson, he quit the cabinet

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to run for senator in New York.

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We're here tonight. There's very little
more I can say except to introduce the

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former Attorney General of the United
States and candidate for the United

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Senate from New York, Robert F. Kennedy.

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Aren't you really using New York State
as a kind of jumping -off place for your

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own presidential ambitions?

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We have a Democratic president.

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He's going to be elected in 1964.

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In my judgment, he's going to be re
-elected.

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He's going to be re -elected in 1968, so
that the earliest that I'm going to be

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jumping off someplace is 1972, which is
eight years from now.

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I'm going to have to be a wonderful
United States senator.

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I hear somebody else outside say, are
you going to serve your whole six years?

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I don't know where I'd go.

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With Johnson's help, he won the election
and joined the war on poverty, visiting

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black slums in the inner city, Kentucky
and Appalachia.

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He also reached out to Cesar Chavez and
the Mexican farm workers during their

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grape boycott in California.

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He was the only national political
figure that would go to Delano and

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the farm workers' struggle.

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He was very compulsive about seeing a
social problem, economic problem, and

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want to find the answer to it and do
something about it. So he was our kind

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activist. By 1968, huge protests swept
the country over the war in Vietnam.

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And in cities torn by racial tension,
the Black Panthers were preaching

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revolution. I say violence is necessary.

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Violence is a part of America's culture.
It is as American as cherry pie.

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America is in trouble today, not because
her people have failed, but because her

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leaders have failed.

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We see Americans dying on distant
battlefields abroad.

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We see Americans hating each other,
fighting each other, killing each other

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home.

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As we see and hear these things,
millions of Americans cry out in

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Did we come all this way for this?

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There was a craziness in the country and
a wildness and a violence. We were in

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the midst of our second civil war here
in the United States. It was that

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and much more intense than you're seeing
about Iraq or anything like that.

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Kennedy's supporters wanted him to
spearhead the anti -war movement and run

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against Johnson for the presidency.

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But Kennedy didn't want to be seen as an
opportunist. Robert Kennedy temporized

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about whether he should run for
president or not. He was ambitious. He

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against the war.

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Was it the right time to run or not?

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I am announcing today my candidacy for
the presidency of the United States.

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It was against the advice of a lot of
people, including his brother Ted, but

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was something he felt he had to do.

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for whatever reason, and then he ran and
he got killed.

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Tomorrow's citizen needs people.

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People who know how to plan for his
future.

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He needs them in the right places.

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Now.

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People like Robert Kennedy.

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One thing is clear in this year of 1968.

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I believe in this country as I traveled
across, and that is that the American

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people want no more Vietnams.

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In August in Chicago, the Democratic
Party will nominate its candidate for

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President of the United States.

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There are two roads to that nomination.

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One is to seek commitments through
discussions with political leaders.

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The other is to go to the people.

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I think this is a great country, and I
think we've accomplished...

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I'm just at the pitch of my campaign
speech, and I look around and it says,

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a haircut.

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I got a haircut.

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No matter what happens, I get a very
tough road ad.

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America was a great force in the world
with immense prestige long before we

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became a great military power.

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The real constructive force in this
world comes not from bombs, but from the

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imaginative ideas.

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the warm sympathies and the generous
spirit of a people.

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I shall not seek and I will not accept
the

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nomination of my party for another term
as your president.

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With the president out of the race,
Kennedy took to the campaign trail.

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He started out away from the cities in
the heartland of Indiana and Nebraska.

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Robert Kennedy on a family farm.

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How can we make the people in the city
understand our problem?

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Well, let me present the United States.

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Robert F. Kennedy in Indiana.

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Even here at home, I've seen children
here in the United States starving

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adequate or satisfactory meals, whether
it be in eastern Kentucky, whether it be

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on some of our Indian reservations, or
whether it be in the Delta area of

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Mississippi. Young children starving to
death.

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Well, obviously, we can work out a
system where you can produce these

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those goods be made available to our own
population.

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This is the most dangerous time that you
can possibly live in, but that also

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makes it the most interesting time.

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Camus said that he wouldn't exchange his
time with any other time, just for that

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reason. We had great prestige.

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a number of years ago around the rest of
the globe, but it wasn't because of our

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military power and it wasn't because of
our economic power. It was just because

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people believed in us and believed that
we would do what was right, believed

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that the principles that we attempted to
follow within our own country, we stood

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for around the rest of the globe, and
they don't have that same confidence

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By the end of May, it was clear
California would make or break Kennedy's

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political career.

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It's the 30th of May, I'm going to ride
all the way.

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on the train to my home, California.

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And I hear people say all the way with
RFK on the train to my home,

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California. And the train has a dream
for the great San Joaquin. Can

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you hear what this song tries to tell
you?

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As the train passes by, sing a dream
never dies, like the grass of my home

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California.

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Well, he had just won Indiana and South
Dakota and lost Oregon.

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Oregon was the first time a candidate
ever lost an election, so coming into

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California, they were going for broke.

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Cesar Chavez, seeing that Robert Kennedy
was doing so much on behalf of the farm

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workers' struggle, organized over 200
,000 new voters in California. That's

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never been done before.

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We saw for the first time in Latino
communities, people lined up at the

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before the polls opened. This happened
in black communities in California as

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well. And we've never seen it since.

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So there's something there that he had,
something very special.

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And so if a man follows the difficult
and rewarding path of the primaries, if

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is willing to come in to the fresh,
stern air of popular judgment, he could

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worse than submit his hopes to
California.

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For me, this primary is a vital turning
point.

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To you, it is a choice about the kind of
future you wish.

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California is the largest of our states.

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In Tuesday's election, however, it will
be all of America.

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On June 4th, vote for Robert Kennedy.

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Kennedy won California and looked set to
challenge Nixon for the White House.

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Just after midnight, he gave his victory
speech at the Ambassador Hotel in Los

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Angeles. As we were walking through the
kitchen towards the embassy ballroom, it

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was one of those wonderful scenes, you
know, kitchen workers coming over to

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shake hands with him and viva Kennedy
and Kennedy for Presidente. And it was

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just that kind of celebration of people
who really needed the presidency more

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than anybody else in the country.

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And so we walked out and went on the
platform and he made this wonderful

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speech.

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What I think is the...

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What I think is quite clear is that we
can work together in the last analysis

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and that what has been going on within
the United States over the period of the

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last three years, the divisions, the
violence, the disenchantment with our

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society, the divisions, whether it's
between blacks and whites, between the

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and the more affluent, or between age
groups or in the war in Vietnam, that we

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can start to work together. We are a
great country and a selfish country and

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compassionate country.

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And I intend to make that my basis for
running over the period of that few

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months.

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Mayor Yorty has just sent me a message
that we've been here too long already.

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So my thanks to all of you, and now it's
on to Chicago, and let's win there.

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Thank you very much.

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Moments later, he was assassinated.

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Oh, my God.

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Senator Kennedy has been shot in the
head. I am right here. Raper Johnson has

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hold of a man who apparently has fired
the shot. He still has the gun. The gun

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is pointed at me right at this moment. I
hope they can get the gun out of his

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hand. Get the gun. Get the gun. His hand
is frozen.

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Get his thumb. Get his thumb.

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Take a hold of his thumb and break it if
you have to. Get his thumb.

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Okay, now hold on to the guy. Hold on to
him.

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Hold on to him, ladies and gentlemen.

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They have the gun away from them, man.

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24 -year -old Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan
is seen firing at Kennedy in a kitchen

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pantry and is arrested as the lone
assassin.

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And notebooks at his house seem to
incriminate him. He carries the motive

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shirt pocket, a newspaper clipping about
Kennedy's promise to sell 50 bombers to

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Israel. But only a last -minute change
of plan led the senator into the killing

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zone.

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After Robert said, you know, it's on to
Chicago and let's win there, he was

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supposed to go down to the ambassador
booth downstairs.

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And I heard Eddie Menezian say, we're
going to the colonial room for a press

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conference. So he, instead of coming
down the way we had gone up, he turned

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around and went through the back of the
stage.

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Kennedy's campaign manager, Fred Dutton,
made the route switch five minutes

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before the end of Kennedy's speech with
Bill Barry, the ex -FBI agent who served

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00:15:02,650 --> 00:15:05,410
as Kennedy's unarmed bodyguard
throughout the campaign.

230
00:15:05,710 --> 00:15:09,690
They thought it was too late and
overcrowded to go downstairs, but nobody

231
00:15:09,690 --> 00:15:10,710
to know about the change.

232
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:15,570
The arrangement had been he was to go
off the podium on the other side to go

233
00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:18,490
down to the lower ballroom to speak to
the crowd.

234
00:15:18,750 --> 00:15:21,830
And suddenly Bob came by me.

235
00:15:22,380 --> 00:15:29,020
Heading out the back door, I couldn't
figure it out, and so I decided that I

236
00:15:29,020 --> 00:15:32,500
going to run after him and stop him and
tell him he was going the wrong way.

237
00:15:32,740 --> 00:15:39,620
When a voice shouts, Senator, this way,
Kennedy turns and follows Major D. Carl

238
00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:43,180
Uecker off the back of the stage, wrong
-footing his security team.

239
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,200
Uecker led Kennedy behind the curtain
and through a backstage ante room.

240
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,100
Instead of going downstairs, they turned
right towards the double -swinging

241
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:54,900
doors of the pantry, on their way to a
press conference in the colonial room.

242
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,180
Kennedy shook hands with supporters as
he walked through a narrow passageway

243
00:15:59,180 --> 00:16:00,600
jammed with 77 people.

244
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,780
He stopped to shake hands with two
waiters at the edge of a metal steam

245
00:16:04,780 --> 00:16:06,040
when the shots rang out.

246
00:16:06,340 --> 00:16:09,900
The X on the floor marks where Kennedy
fell after he was shot.

247
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,180
The place is so crowded and packed, the
place is hot.

248
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,700
And I decided to get off the platform,
and I walked in through the doors and

249
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:24,720
wound up in the pantry area and stood
there waiting. And then I saw him coming

250
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,100
through the swinging doors.

251
00:16:26,620 --> 00:16:31,200
Then he stopped and shook hands with two
guys in the kitchen who were standing

252
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,200
up against the wall.

253
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,640
And I remembered saying, you know, this
is the guy who's really going to be the

254
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:42,300
president. As we turned to go, I
followed.

255
00:16:44,540 --> 00:16:48,620
And all of a sudden, you know, there
were flashes and crackling I heard.

256
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,660
I started shaking violently. I remember
that. So I just fell and went out.

257
00:16:56,740 --> 00:17:02,700
As soon as he finished shaking hands, I
knew he'd turn around and I would be

258
00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:05,099
able to tell, you know, you're going the
wrong way.

259
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:12,400
And at that time, all of a sudden, it
was a string of shots, which I thought.

260
00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:17,589
Initially, we're firecrackers. I really
did. I thought some idiot had done that.

261
00:17:17,910 --> 00:17:21,630
And I looked over toward the noise.

262
00:17:22,990 --> 00:17:28,109
And out of the crowd of people at the
end of the steam table, there was this

263
00:17:28,109 --> 00:17:29,330
with a gun in it.

264
00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:33,590
I asked Frank to reenact the shooting
with our lighting case as Robert

265
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:40,290
The moment of the shooting, I am
standing off of Bob

266
00:17:40,290 --> 00:17:42,110
Kennedy's right shoulder.

267
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,520
at about this position.

268
00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:52,100
And I hear the noise, and I look there,
and I see an arm with a gun sticking

269
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:58,240
between a crowd of people. Then look
back in the direction that the gun was

270
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:03,940
pointed, and I saw that Robert Kennedy
had thrown his hands up to his head and

271
00:18:03,940 --> 00:18:07,340
was starting to turn this way.

272
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:13,640
Then I looked back, and the gun was
coming forward, and I met it like this.

273
00:18:14,420 --> 00:18:19,440
Underneath his arms, sort of in a bear
hug type of thing, and several other

274
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,000
people grabbed him, mostly from behind.

275
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,960
I got very concerned that somebody was
going to kill him.

276
00:18:26,180 --> 00:18:30,040
They were bending his back such that I
was afraid they were going to break his

277
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,040
back.

278
00:18:31,070 --> 00:18:33,350
and I wanted him to go to trial.

279
00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:37,670
Nobody had gotten the gun away from him
by then. Rosie Greer had it pinned

280
00:18:37,670 --> 00:18:38,830
against the table.

281
00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:44,470
As I looked down, the gun was pointing
right up at me, and I thought, I sure

282
00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:45,870
hope that thing is empty.

283
00:18:46,350 --> 00:18:50,110
Kennedy, after he got shot with the
first shot, his hands went up to his

284
00:18:50,110 --> 00:18:54,510
like that, and he started to spin to his
right.

285
00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:58,750
The second shot, it appeared the bullet
hit him.

286
00:18:59,340 --> 00:19:04,440
because his right arm went limp, and it
went down to the side, and he started

287
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,000
falling back towards me.

288
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,480
The third bullet, I believe, is that
bullet that hit Paul Schrade, because at

289
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,660
that point, Paul went down.

290
00:19:13,260 --> 00:19:14,800
Carl now has got the gun.

291
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,280
He's banging the gun. I'm watching the
bullets come out of the gun.

292
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,840
Every time he hits it, he fires.

293
00:19:22,540 --> 00:19:25,480
Goldstein gets hit. What number bullet,
I don't remember.

294
00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:28,840
He hits me on my right shoulder. I am
now falling.

295
00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:32,260
I'm now on the ground. I have Kennedy on
my leg.

296
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,980
I've got Paul under my left arm.

297
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:42,260
And crying.

298
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,440
I was hysterical.

299
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:51,520
Carl literally had his hand banging it
on the cabinet trying to get him to

300
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:52,479
release it.

301
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,690
Finally... After the gun was empty, he
was still banging his hand, and you

302
00:19:56,690 --> 00:19:57,890
still hear the gun click.

303
00:19:58,290 --> 00:20:01,150
He was still trying to shoot at him on
the ground.

304
00:20:02,090 --> 00:20:08,010
When we were on the floor and the
shooting was finished, I was on my

305
00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:09,730
I crawled over to the senator.

306
00:20:10,090 --> 00:20:13,270
The first thing he said was, is
everybody else all right?

307
00:20:13,710 --> 00:20:16,650
He said, don't say anything, just don't
speak.

308
00:20:17,030 --> 00:20:19,290
All he was concerned with was everybody
else.

309
00:20:19,790 --> 00:20:21,230
Something I can never forget that.

310
00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:26,490
To see a man who knew he was probably
going to die, worrying about everybody

311
00:20:26,490 --> 00:20:27,490
else.

312
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:34,410
It was just, you know, a horrible time
from then on to

313
00:20:34,410 --> 00:20:36,530
know that we had lost him that way.

314
00:20:37,650 --> 00:20:40,610
We won and we lost all in matter of
moments.

315
00:20:41,710 --> 00:20:46,450
200 million Americans did not strike
down Robert Kennedy last night.

316
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:53,290
any more than they struck down President
John F. Kennedy in 1963 or Dr.

317
00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:55,710
Martin Luther King in April of this
year.

318
00:20:56,050 --> 00:21:02,930
But those awful events give us ample
warning that in a climate of

319
00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:09,110
extremism, of disrespect for law, of
contempt for the rights of others,

320
00:21:09,330 --> 00:21:13,930
violence may bring down the very best
among us.

321
00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:19,070
Early the next morning, June 6th, Robert
Kennedy died.

322
00:21:19,550 --> 00:21:24,150
His death cast another dark shadow of
grief across America.

323
00:21:26,610 --> 00:21:30,550
Thousands came out to mourn Robert
Kennedy as he made his final journey by

324
00:21:30,550 --> 00:21:33,350
funeral train to Arlington Cemetery in
Washington.

325
00:21:34,030 --> 00:21:40,070
My brother need not be idealized or
enlarged in death beyond what he was in

326
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:41,070
life.

327
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:44,010
To be remembered simply as a good and
decent man,

328
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,660
who saw wrong and tried to right it, saw
suffering and tried to heal it,

329
00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:55,400
saw war and tried to stop it.

330
00:21:55,980 --> 00:22:02,140
As he said many times in many parts of
this nation, to those he touched

331
00:22:02,140 --> 00:22:08,300
and who sought to touch him, some men
see things as they are and say, why?

332
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,860
I dream things that never were and say,
why not?

333
00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:20,610
The LAPD concluded all eight shots were
fired from Sirhan's gun.

334
00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:23,830
Three hit Kennedy's body and five others
were injured.

335
00:22:24,330 --> 00:22:28,470
According to police criminalist Dwayne
Wolfer, shot one was the fatal bullet

336
00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:31,670
hitting Kennedy behind the right ear and
penetrating his brain.

337
00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:35,830
Shot two passed through the shoulder pad
of Kennedy's coat and struck Paul

338
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:36,830
Schrade in the head.

339
00:22:37,330 --> 00:22:40,150
Shots three and four hit Kennedy under
the right armpit.

340
00:22:40,370 --> 00:22:44,230
One bullet lodged in his neck, the other
passed through and got lost in the

341
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:46,810
ceiling. Shot 5 hit Ira Goldstein.

342
00:22:47,110 --> 00:22:50,030
Shot 6 struck the floor and hit Erwin
Stroh.

343
00:22:50,570 --> 00:22:55,030
Shot 7 hit William Wiesel in the
abdomen. And shot 8 hit the ceiling and

344
00:22:55,030 --> 00:22:56,850
down to hit Elizabeth Evans in the head.

345
00:22:57,290 --> 00:23:00,730
But the police description of the bullet
that hit Paul Schrade made him doubt

346
00:23:00,730 --> 00:23:02,010
the official version of events.

347
00:23:02,350 --> 00:23:05,930
Their description of the bullet that hit
me was one that went through the

348
00:23:05,930 --> 00:23:07,490
shoulder pad of his coat.

349
00:23:07,810 --> 00:23:10,150
Didn't hit him, but went through...

350
00:23:10,830 --> 00:23:15,570
about here, and came out in the back and
hit me in the head. And looking at the

351
00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:21,310
photographs of Dwayne Wolfer wearing
Robert Kennedy's jacket, passing a rod

352
00:23:21,310 --> 00:23:25,650
through those two holes, and I'd have to
have been much taller than I am at 6

353
00:23:25,650 --> 00:23:27,870
'4", for that to have gone into my head.

354
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:30,310
There's no real explanation of that.

355
00:23:30,770 --> 00:23:35,490
According to the autopsy report, all
three shots that hit Kennedy were fired

356
00:23:35,490 --> 00:23:39,730
a sharp upward angle at a muzzle
distance of one inch behind Kennedy and

357
00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:44,940
right. The actual shooter of Robert
Kennedy was standing behind Robert

358
00:23:45,060 --> 00:23:48,680
according to the autopsy report. Sirhan
was standing in front of him, face to

359
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,360
face. The distance between the muzzle of
the assailant's weapon and Robert

360
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,820
Kennedy's body was somewhere between
actual contact and no more than three

361
00:23:56,820 --> 00:24:01,130
inches. and the weapon was held at a
sharp upward angle, again from the rear.

362
00:24:01,310 --> 00:24:05,170
All the witnesses state that Sirhan's
weapon was held between one and a half

363
00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:09,930
six feet away from Robert Kennedy
horizontally in relation to the floor.

364
00:24:09,930 --> 00:24:11,410
autopsy report exonerates Sirhan.

365
00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:15,230
Carl Uecker is seen leading Kennedy
through the pantry in this 1971

366
00:24:15,230 --> 00:24:16,230
reconstruction.

367
00:24:16,690 --> 00:24:20,190
Uecker insisted Kennedy had just turned
to face Sirhan when the shots began,

368
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:24,070
that Sirhan's gun never got closer than
a foot and a half to two feet from

369
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:27,210
Kennedy, and that he grabbed Sirhan
after the first two shots.

370
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:48,530
Another witness, Lisa Urso, said Kennedy
was still shaking hands when the shot

371
00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:52,150
started, but placed the gun five feet
from Kennedy in another reconstruction.

372
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:57,660
What was the distance between the muzzle
of the gun and Kennedy?

373
00:24:57,980 --> 00:25:03,520
Well, that's something that I can't be
sure of, but I know it wasn't six inches

374
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:09,160
or anything like that. It was a matter
of a foot or two at the most, and

375
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:15,820
it could have been even a greater
distance. The angles of the gun

376
00:25:15,820 --> 00:25:18,040
that I saw was either...

377
00:25:19,540 --> 00:25:23,440
horizontal or slightly or pointed
downward, not upward.

378
00:25:23,740 --> 00:25:27,200
Evan Freed was six to eight feet from
Kennedy when the shooting started.

379
00:25:27,580 --> 00:25:31,280
Sirhan Sirhan would have been directly
across from me and the senator would

380
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,420
been to my left. The senator took a
couple of steps forward so we would

381
00:25:35,420 --> 00:25:37,520
walking toward each other when the shots
began.

382
00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:42,480
It took me at least two shots before I
realized what was happening because it

383
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:43,480
went pow, pow, pow.

384
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:45,880
At that moment I looked over and I saw
Sirhan shooting.

385
00:25:46,350 --> 00:25:51,550
Sirhan Sirhan, for at least a second and
a half, was all by himself, standing in

386
00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:55,970
front of where the senator was, with
people converging on him. But at that

387
00:25:55,970 --> 00:25:59,910
moment, he was free to fire his gun. And
he wasn't moving when he was shooting

388
00:25:59,910 --> 00:26:03,910
when I saw him. He was just standing
still with the gun held horizontal,

389
00:26:04,150 --> 00:26:05,150
shooting.

390
00:26:05,910 --> 00:26:09,910
And I would estimate that the distance
between him and the senator at that

391
00:26:09,910 --> 00:26:11,610
was about five feet.

392
00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:16,400
This police diagram shows the witnesses
clustered around Kennedy at the time of

393
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,119
the shooting.

394
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:21,020
Those who were asked all placed the gun
one and a half to six feet from Kennedy,

395
00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:25,640
except LA Times photographer Boris
Yarrow, who was looking through a camera

396
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,980
and could only see Kennedy and Sirhan in
silhouette.

397
00:26:28,860 --> 00:26:32,620
Even if Kennedy was still shaking hands,
turned to one side, as Wolfer suggests,

398
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,940
the muzzle distance seemed too great.

399
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:42,120
The first burst of gunfire could not
have been that close.

400
00:26:42,620 --> 00:26:45,680
But the police and FBI never asked Burns
about the muzzle distance.

401
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,800
The issue of distance never came up. It
was never discussed.

402
00:26:50,380 --> 00:26:55,060
Distance seemed to be something that
came in later on when people read the

403
00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:57,120
autopsy report and said, how could that
be?

404
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,300
Somehow there's two guns.

405
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,420
But I did find one new witness who could
place the gun much closer.

406
00:27:03,790 --> 00:27:07,430
Vincent DiPiero had first spotted Sirhan
in the kitchen before the speech.

407
00:27:07,770 --> 00:27:10,670
I thought he was a regular dishwasher. I
thought he was somebody who worked

408
00:27:10,670 --> 00:27:14,110
downstairs, and I didn't think anybody
that was back there didn't belong.

409
00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:15,830
He was walking through the kitchen.

410
00:27:16,270 --> 00:27:20,510
I thought he was looking for a place to
stand, so when the senator came down, he

411
00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:21,510
wanted to shake his hand.

412
00:27:21,790 --> 00:27:25,150
I mean, he wasn't, like, casing the
place. He wasn't, like, looking

413
00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:30,110
And that's how I recognized him again as
we came through the doors because he

414
00:27:30,110 --> 00:27:33,730
was standing on the tray stacker. I saw
him starting to get down, figuring he

415
00:27:33,730 --> 00:27:34,770
was going to go shake his hand.

416
00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:36,950
Disregarded Kennedy.

417
00:27:37,210 --> 00:27:38,530
I was watching the senator.

418
00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:44,610
The next time I saw him was when I saw
his arm come up with the gun because he

419
00:27:44,610 --> 00:27:46,750
was crouched down.

420
00:27:47,310 --> 00:27:50,250
He was literally crouching like he had a
stomach cramp.

421
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,940
And all of a sudden, he came around with
his right arm, came up. He pushed Carl

422
00:27:55,940 --> 00:28:01,100
with his left hand, and he came straight
up, and he reached. He was lunging.

423
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:07,920
And the gun was in an upward angle. His
hand was going up towards his head.

424
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,200
And when he pulled the trigger, Sir Hand
himself was standing probably three

425
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,200
feet away.

426
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,300
But the gun, the muzzle of the gun,
couldn't have been more than three to

427
00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:20,180
inches away from his head.

428
00:28:21,020 --> 00:28:25,560
Carl was, I think, taken off guard the
way he went around him. He literally

429
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:31,400
on the inside part of the cabinet, slid
along the keg, and pushed Carl, who was

430
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,500
pulling Kennedy to go to the colonial
room.

431
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,840
The first shot definitely was Sirhan
pulling the trigger.

432
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,360
I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that
Carl was in the way.

433
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,420
Carl did grab his arm, whether it was
the third shot.

434
00:28:48,970 --> 00:28:50,890
Or the fourth shot? I wasn't counting.

435
00:28:51,850 --> 00:28:53,430
I was praying I didn't get shot.

436
00:28:54,010 --> 00:28:57,870
I read Vincent the statement he gave the
FBI two days after the shooting.

437
00:28:58,430 --> 00:29:03,630
I saw this individual reach his right
hand around Mr. Uker, and in his hand he

438
00:29:03,630 --> 00:29:06,730
had a revolver which was pointed
directly at Senator Kennedy's head.

439
00:29:06,990 --> 00:29:10,970
The revolver was about three to five
feet from Senator Kennedy's head.

440
00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:14,230
This individual then shot Senator
Kennedy in the head.

441
00:29:14,650 --> 00:29:18,230
Senator Kennedy at this time threw his
hands and arms up.

442
00:29:36,570 --> 00:29:39,490
Vincent insisted he didn't write the
statement.

443
00:29:44,250 --> 00:29:47,770
But the same day, Vincent gave the
following testimony before the grand

444
00:29:48,150 --> 00:29:50,430
How close did the suspect get to the
senator?

445
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:52,450
It couldn't have been more than six
feet.

446
00:29:52,770 --> 00:29:56,250
How close to the senator was the suspect
when the gun started firing?

447
00:29:56,590 --> 00:29:58,630
Four feet, four to six feet.

448
00:29:58,930 --> 00:30:05,070
When we recall something, very often we
may recall the gist, but many of the

449
00:30:05,070 --> 00:30:11,750
details are part of our way of
reconstructing the memory. It's very

450
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:12,750
iceberg.

451
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,280
that melts and then refreezes again.
When it refreezes, it's still an

452
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,160
but it's not exactly the same shape as
it was in the first place.

453
00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:23,120
Now, that's what our memory is like.

454
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:30,140
We may remember the gist, but the
details can be generated

455
00:30:30,140 --> 00:30:33,280
by what we think happened.

456
00:30:34,780 --> 00:30:38,260
There was also evidence that more than
eight shots were fired in the pantry.

457
00:30:38,650 --> 00:30:43,470
The police knew that they could not
discover any bullets on the crime scene

458
00:30:43,470 --> 00:30:48,310
because seven bullets were taken from
victims and an eighth was supposedly

459
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:49,029
in the ceiling.

460
00:30:49,030 --> 00:30:54,230
Any evidence of additional shots would
confirm that multiple shooters were

461
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:58,110
involved because the capacity of the so
-called Sirhan revolver was eight shots.

462
00:30:58,410 --> 00:31:03,790
Previously undisclosed FBI photographs
confirmed there were bullet holes in the

463
00:31:03,790 --> 00:31:04,790
pantry door frames.

464
00:31:05,050 --> 00:31:08,850
These were circled by the L .A.
Sheriff's Department deputy. The FBI

465
00:31:08,850 --> 00:31:09,849
these as bullet holes.

466
00:31:09,850 --> 00:31:14,090
There were witnesses that the police
criminalists were digging out bullets

467
00:31:14,090 --> 00:31:17,990
the doorframe. Those bullets never
materialized. They were never disclosed.

468
00:31:17,990 --> 00:31:24,490
LAPD removed the doorframes and ceiling
panels and destroyed them before

469
00:31:24,490 --> 00:31:26,770
Sirhan's appeal even got off the ground.

470
00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:30,970
I discovered new film of an unknown
finger pointing out these bullet holes.

471
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,440
Look at the size of the lower hole on
this strip of moulding. It's much larger

472
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,840
in the FBI photo, suggesting an attempt
was made to dig something out of it. And

473
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,740
FBI agent William Bailey remembers
seeing two bullets in these holes.

474
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:50,800
I saw two bullet holes in a centre
divider. I saw two bullets

475
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,400
in the holes.

476
00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:59,580
I have serious reservations whether or
not any of Bobby's wounds were

477
00:31:59,580 --> 00:32:05,400
inflicted by... There are a number of
candidates for the second gun, but the

478
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,960
most obvious one is a security guard
named Thayne Eugene Caesar, who was,

479
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,660
Sirhan, standing in exactly the position
and location he had to be to fire the

480
00:32:15,660 --> 00:32:16,720
shots that hit Robert Kennedy.

481
00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:21,040
Thayne Eugene Caesar was standing behind
Robert Kennedy and in contact with him

482
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,600
by his own admission when the shooting
began. He dropped to the floor and

483
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,500
reached for his weapon. One witness saw
him fire.

484
00:33:54,010 --> 00:33:57,870
Caesar's clip -on tie lay on the floor
beside Robert Kennedy after the

485
00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:01,310
Here we see Caesar without his tie
nearly an hour later.

486
00:34:10,810 --> 00:34:13,270
Caesar's gun was never checked on the
night of the shooting.

487
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:17,050
He told police he had sold his .22 three
months before the assassination.

488
00:34:17,550 --> 00:34:21,030
The receipt proves that it was sold
after the assassination.

489
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,199
The person who made out this receipt
confirmed Caesar told him at the time of

490
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,280
the sale, be careful of this weapon, it
was involved in a police shooting.

491
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:36,159
He was the obvious first suspect. The
police brushed him off and never

492
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:37,320
investigated him further.

493
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,139
There was also evidence of another
conspirator, the girl in the polka dot

494
00:34:45,810 --> 00:34:49,830
Twenty -year -old Kennedy volunteer
Sandra Serrano was sitting outside in a

495
00:34:49,830 --> 00:34:52,250
escape when she saw two people fleeing
the scene.

496
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:55,610
I was standing there just thinking, you
know, thinking about how many people

497
00:34:55,610 --> 00:34:56,989
there were and how wonderful it was.

498
00:34:57,570 --> 00:35:01,810
Then this girl came running down the
stairs in the back, came running down

499
00:35:01,810 --> 00:35:04,930
stairs and said, we've shot him, we've
shot him.

500
00:35:05,490 --> 00:35:07,150
And I said, who did you shoot?

501
00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:11,790
And she said, we shot Senator Kennedy. A
boy came down with her.

502
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,880
He was about 23 years old and he was
Mexican -American.

503
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:17,460
Because I can remember that because I'm
Mexican -American.

504
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,260
She had on a white dress with polka
dots. She was light -skinned, dark hair.

505
00:35:22,540 --> 00:35:23,960
And she has a funny nose.

506
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,700
I thought it was really funny. All my
friends tell me I'm so observant.

507
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:32,220
After nearly 40 years, Sandra kindly
agreed to her first interview since the

508
00:35:32,220 --> 00:35:33,220
night of the shooting.

509
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,980
It was very claustrophobic in the
ballroom. You could barely move.

510
00:35:38,670 --> 00:35:43,030
I just stepped out onto the fire escape
and a little balcony attached.

511
00:35:43,390 --> 00:35:49,330
While I was sitting there, three people
passed by, a woman and two men.

512
00:35:50,010 --> 00:35:55,130
And the woman, I remember, was
definitely an Anglo.

513
00:35:55,710 --> 00:35:59,450
And at the time, I thought both men were
Latinos.

514
00:35:59,710 --> 00:36:02,930
They went in and said, excuse me, very
polite.

515
00:36:03,630 --> 00:36:07,230
Then a little later, two of them came
out.

516
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,600
and like tripping over each other and
tripping over me.

517
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:16,860
And I said, what happened? They said, we
shot him, we shot him. I said, you shot

518
00:36:16,860 --> 00:36:18,740
who? And they said, the senator.

519
00:36:20,140 --> 00:36:25,760
And I said, what? And then I remember
going into the ballroom, and everything

520
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,100
was chaotic, absolutely chaotic.

521
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,260
I remember very distinctively that she
was wearing a white dress with black

522
00:36:32,260 --> 00:36:37,020
polka dots, like a little ruffle around
the collar, like a bib top, sort of.

523
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,580
Dark hair, definitely.

524
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:45,680
Like a little pixie kind of cut. And a
nose that's sort of like Bob Hope,

525
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,380
Richard Nixon kind of nose, a little bit
ski.

526
00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:54,680
There's certain things about what
happened that day that I will never

527
00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:00,240
And the statement, we shot him, we shot
him, I'll never forget that.

528
00:37:01,020 --> 00:37:05,000
So I'm very clear in my mind that that's
what was said.

529
00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:07,570
Both guys actually were short.

530
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:11,570
A guy in a gold sweater went up and down
with the girl, but the second man

531
00:37:11,570 --> 00:37:12,570
didn't come down.

532
00:37:13,050 --> 00:37:18,510
Sandra described him as a white male, 23
years old, 5 '3", with curly bushy hair

533
00:37:18,510 --> 00:37:19,670
and light -coloured clothes.

534
00:37:20,070 --> 00:37:24,010
After seeing the picture of Sirhan in
the newspaper, she felt certain this was

535
00:37:24,010 --> 00:37:25,010
the same person.

536
00:37:25,150 --> 00:37:29,130
That's what it was, seeing the
photograph in the LA Times, that I said,

537
00:37:29,130 --> 00:37:30,450
really does look like that guy.

538
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,900
As Serrano stuck to her story, Sergeant
Enrique Hank Hernandez was brought in to

539
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:36,960
give her a polygraph test.

540
00:37:37,380 --> 00:37:40,220
He was a very frightening person. And he
was like some Dr.

541
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,920
Jekyll, Mr. Hyde type, you know. One
minute he was just like really, really

542
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,860
and soft -spoken, like a wonderful big
brother.

543
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:50,740
And the next minute he was like...

544
00:37:51,290 --> 00:37:55,090
You know, you're an awful person and
you're hurting the Kennedys.

545
00:37:55,410 --> 00:37:56,610
I've seen those people.

546
00:37:57,130 --> 00:37:59,030
No, no, no, no, Sandy.

547
00:37:59,350 --> 00:38:02,430
I don't know what I told you about that.
You can't say you saw something when

548
00:38:02,430 --> 00:38:03,430
you didn't see it.

549
00:38:03,530 --> 00:38:08,470
Sandy, look, I can explain this to the
investigators where you don't even have

550
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:10,410
to talk to them and they won't talk to
you.

551
00:38:10,690 --> 00:38:11,690
I can do this.

552
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:14,270
But please, in the name of Kennedy.

553
00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:18,870
I've never seen a girl. No, no. I'm
talking about what you have told here

554
00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:21,870
saying a person told you he had shot
Kennedy. And that's wrong.

555
00:38:22,090 --> 00:38:25,950
No, it is unsanitary. Look it, look it.
I love this man.

556
00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:31,030
And you're shaming your... Right now, he
can't even... Well, I'm trying not to

557
00:38:31,030 --> 00:38:33,370
shout, but this is a very emotional
thing with me too, you see.

558
00:38:35,390 --> 00:38:40,250
If you love the man, the least you owe
him, the least you owe him is a courtesy

559
00:38:40,250 --> 00:38:41,670
of letting him rest in peace.

560
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:43,530
I felt like I was a criminal.

561
00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:45,470
That's my best description.

562
00:38:45,690 --> 00:38:48,530
I felt like I was a criminal, and I had
done something wrong.

563
00:38:48,890 --> 00:38:51,470
You didn't do that. You didn't see that.
You weren't there.

564
00:38:52,770 --> 00:38:55,990
You're making all of this up. Why are
you doing this?

565
00:38:57,170 --> 00:38:58,550
Just a lot of browbeating.

566
00:38:59,610 --> 00:39:04,750
During later years, it crosses your
mind. Why did they invest so much in

567
00:39:04,750 --> 00:39:05,750
you up?

568
00:39:06,370 --> 00:39:09,970
If there was nothing there, why did they
beat you up so much?

569
00:39:10,210 --> 00:39:11,210
I remember.

570
00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:14,960
thinking that he was lying.

571
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,940
And then thinking, no, he can't lie.
He's the police. The police don't lie.

572
00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:24,280
Finally, Hernandez wore Serrano down.

573
00:39:24,620 --> 00:39:29,120
I remember saying to him, whatever you
want me to say, I'll say, okay?

574
00:39:29,620 --> 00:39:33,460
I'm not here to hurt anybody. I don't
want to do anything bad.

575
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,120
So whatever you want me to say, I'll
say.

576
00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:39,840
And they were the cops. They were the
good guys.

577
00:39:41,839 --> 00:39:45,860
Hernandez pressured Serrano into a
retraction and concluded she had never

578
00:39:45,860 --> 00:39:49,900
Serhan in person and had fabricated for
some unknown reason the girl in the

579
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:50,900
polka dot dress.

580
00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:54,620
Someone in the LAPD said that it was not
going to be another Dallas. They were

581
00:39:54,620 --> 00:39:55,780
going to wrap it up real quick.

582
00:39:56,660 --> 00:40:00,660
And so I remember when I read that and
talking to my uncle and aunt, who I

583
00:40:00,660 --> 00:40:05,320
with at the time, we all sort of said,
yeah, right, you know, maybe that's why

584
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:06,320
they were so hard on you.

585
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,140
But Serrano wasn't the only witness to
see a girl in a polka dot dress.

586
00:41:22,940 --> 00:41:26,960
De Piero's description of the girl was
almost identical to Sander Serrano's.

587
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,360
An attractive brunette in a white dress
with black polka dots and a ruffled bib

588
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:32,218
-like collar.

589
00:41:32,220 --> 00:41:38,020
There was a girl that I saw. He glanced
at her as though a guy was checking out

590
00:41:38,020 --> 00:41:42,520
a girl. Whether they were together, I
doubt it, but I mean, I don't think that

591
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,340
she would have wanted to go out with
somebody like him. But he was standing

592
00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:49,400
the stacker and she was behind that to
his left.

593
00:41:49,740 --> 00:41:50,980
And what was she wearing?

594
00:41:51,850 --> 00:41:53,210
The famous polka dot dress.

595
00:41:53,850 --> 00:41:58,970
Do you remember what colours it was? I
remember them as white and black, but

596
00:41:58,970 --> 00:42:02,550
they could have been purple, they could
have been a dark colour. I don't

597
00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:03,550
remember exactly.

598
00:42:04,170 --> 00:42:07,530
During the trial, Vincent identified
Valerie Schulte as the girl.

599
00:42:08,090 --> 00:42:11,810
Schulte was standing in the pantry but
had blonde hair, wore a green dress with

600
00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:16,010
yellow polka dots, was on crutches and
had no contact with Sirhan. Whether he

601
00:42:16,010 --> 00:42:18,330
had blonde hair at that time or not, I
don't remember.

602
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:22,130
But I remember seeing what I thought was
brown hair.

603
00:42:22,770 --> 00:42:24,530
All I remember was she was very pretty.

604
00:42:24,930 --> 00:42:30,510
And she looked just like Valerie, unless
she has a twin that had dark brown

605
00:42:30,510 --> 00:42:34,510
hair. The LAPD agreed that Schulte did
not match DiPiero's description.

606
00:42:35,050 --> 00:42:39,230
The final report concluded Sandra
Serrano had no knowledge of a girl in a

607
00:42:39,230 --> 00:42:41,490
dot dress until she spoke to DiPiero.

608
00:42:41,710 --> 00:42:45,210
There must have been a mutual agreement
between them as to the description of

609
00:42:45,210 --> 00:42:46,550
the girl and the polka dot dress.

610
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,200
Valerie Schulte was named as the only
girl in a polka -dot dress in the

611
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,140
Miss Schulte is blonde and slender and
does not fit the description which

612
00:42:55,140 --> 00:42:57,380
Serrano supplied investigators in any
way.

613
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,280
Serrano grew up in the family home in
Pasadena.

614
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:06,180
His sole surviving family member is his
younger brother, Maneer, seen here in

615
00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:07,220
his first ever interview.

616
00:43:07,580 --> 00:43:11,760
We came to the U .S. by a Christian
sponsorship.

617
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,320
I believe it was the Nazarene Church
brought us here as refugees.

618
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:17,738
from Palestine.

619
00:43:17,740 --> 00:43:21,700
We were a normal Christian, God -fearing
family, believe it or not, at one time.

620
00:43:21,820 --> 00:43:25,120
Mom worked at the Presbyterian church,
teaching children.

621
00:43:25,420 --> 00:43:29,340
One brother was an entertainer. They'd
always have feuds, entertaining, belly

622
00:43:29,340 --> 00:43:33,140
dancing, and mother's an avid Christian
and what have you. But other than that,

623
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,780
just a normal, happy -go -lucky
Christian, God -fearing people, believe

624
00:43:36,780 --> 00:43:37,780
not.

625
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,920
Sirhan was born in Jordan in 1944, and
both brothers experienced heavy bumming

626
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:43,920
during childhood.

627
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,340
It's like sticking your tongue into a
220 -volt current.

628
00:43:48,020 --> 00:43:52,160
I mean, the whole ground would shake,
the buildings would shake. You were

629
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,440
terrified not only of the sounds
outside, but the screaming in the

630
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:56,840
of the makeshift bomb shelters.

631
00:43:57,180 --> 00:44:01,640
But because of those facts, they've
sheltered me from the Middle East. So

632
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,800
more of an American than I am.

633
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,100
And even things that I do remember, they
tried to make me forget them so that,

634
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:11,720
you know, to go on with life. It was a
new beginning.

635
00:44:12,570 --> 00:44:13,910
Sirhan grew up a shy teenager.

636
00:44:14,270 --> 00:44:17,950
He dropped out of college after the
death of his sister and worked as a gas

637
00:44:17,950 --> 00:44:18,950
station attendant.

638
00:44:19,050 --> 00:44:20,050
He liked to play pool.

639
00:44:20,310 --> 00:44:21,310
He liked music.

640
00:44:21,450 --> 00:44:25,650
He liked to read a lot. He was
interested in languages. He would go

641
00:44:25,650 --> 00:44:31,650
house narrating phrases in various
languages, Spanish, Russian, French.

642
00:44:32,210 --> 00:44:34,610
He wanted to be a UN interpreter at one
time.

643
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,300
So, you know, his vocabulary was up to
par, so to speak.

644
00:44:38,540 --> 00:44:42,020
I don't know what sidetracked him from
that to go to horse racing.

645
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:47,440
In 1966, Sirhan left home to work as a
stable boy and trained to be a jockey.

646
00:44:47,540 --> 00:44:51,260
But a few months later, a nasty fall
ended his career before it started.

647
00:44:51,740 --> 00:44:57,020
He was working a horse and due to the
fog, it bucked him into the railing and

648
00:44:57,020 --> 00:45:01,220
had a severe injury to the head. And he
wasn't the same afterwards. He was a

649
00:45:01,220 --> 00:45:02,770
little... A little shaky.

650
00:45:03,070 --> 00:45:06,350
I don't know how to describe it. But he
just wasn't himself.

651
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:11,750
He was a little aloof and a little more
tense and what have you. And just wanted

652
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:14,650
to be more or less by himself after that
for some odd reason.

653
00:45:15,170 --> 00:45:17,990
After the fall, Sirhan's interest in
mysticism grew.

654
00:45:18,230 --> 00:45:22,410
He joined the mystical order of the
Rosicrucians and took to hypnotizing

655
00:45:22,410 --> 00:45:23,410
in his room.

656
00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:28,350
He had a fish weight hanging from the
light in his room.

657
00:45:28,970 --> 00:45:32,170
And I asked him what that was all about,
and he said it had something to do with

658
00:45:32,170 --> 00:45:35,990
his mystical powers, so to speak.

659
00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:41,030
Once in a while, he'd get mail from the
Rosicrucians, and Mom would ask him what

660
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:42,030
that was all about.

661
00:45:42,170 --> 00:45:44,830
And he wouldn't elaborate much.

662
00:45:45,130 --> 00:45:49,090
In March 1968, Sirhan asked Munir to
help him buy a gun.

663
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:55,790
Sirhan said to me that he used to belong
to the ROTC program in high school, and

664
00:45:55,790 --> 00:45:56,790
he wanted to...

665
00:45:58,060 --> 00:46:00,780
acquire a gun so he could practice.

666
00:46:02,140 --> 00:46:07,020
So I made him promise that he'll throw
it away after he practiced, and I'll see

667
00:46:07,020 --> 00:46:08,020
what I could do.

668
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:11,440
While at work, I asked one of the
fellows there, did he know of a gun that

669
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,520
could buy? He said, yeah, he has one. So
I told him to come to the house, and

670
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,860
that was it. That was history. It was
never discussed.

671
00:46:19,140 --> 00:46:22,080
It was never... I just forgot about it.

672
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,800
I woke up like a normal day. My mother
was gone. Adele was asleep.

673
00:46:27,310 --> 00:46:32,670
I went to work as normal, and I saw my
colleagues sitting in the coffee shop.

674
00:46:33,010 --> 00:46:37,310
I looked over at the TV and said
something to the effect that Bobby

675
00:46:37,310 --> 00:46:38,269
been shot.

676
00:46:38,270 --> 00:46:42,590
All of a sudden, I saw Sirhan's picture
on there. I said, something to the

677
00:46:42,590 --> 00:46:49,070
effect that if anyone recognizes this
fellow to get in touch with the police.

678
00:46:49,390 --> 00:46:54,710
I looked at it once, and when I took a
closer look, I ran down to my superiors.

679
00:46:55,420 --> 00:46:58,780
Since I didn't have a car at the time, I
asked him if I could borrow his car to

680
00:46:58,780 --> 00:46:59,459
run home.

681
00:46:59,460 --> 00:47:00,460
Complete shock.

682
00:47:00,620 --> 00:47:01,620
Complete shock.

683
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:03,120
Devastation. Shock.

684
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:07,940
And when we first saw him in jail, I
think Mother and I went up first. When

685
00:47:07,940 --> 00:47:11,020
Mother first asked him, he said, Mother,
I don't remember.

686
00:47:11,260 --> 00:47:12,380
I don't know what happened.

687
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:18,560
And he says that to this day, when you
ask him about the particulars of that

688
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:19,980
night, he doesn't recall.

689
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,180
Munir rejects the idea that Sirhan was
the first Arab terrorist.

690
00:47:24,910 --> 00:47:28,290
You know, sitting here, you're in
Sirhan's home.

691
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:34,390
If we were sitting here and a fly
happened to venture in, you know, your

692
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:39,050
reaction in mind would be grab the fly
swatter, you know, grab something, kill

693
00:47:39,050 --> 00:47:40,370
that fly, get it out of here.

694
00:47:40,770 --> 00:47:46,870
Sirhan would open the door, you know,
and he'd try to pull the fly out and

695
00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:50,950
it go out the door again. I mean, life
meant something to him.

696
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,020
You know, and especially the things that
he went through, we all went through,

697
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,200
you know, the upheaval in the Middle
East and what have you. You know, how

698
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,180
people do you know that will open a door
and let it fly out?

699
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:06,740
You know, it's not conceivable to me
that the guy would actually take a gun

700
00:48:06,740 --> 00:48:11,780
whether he was five feet away, like most
people say, or eight feet away or an

701
00:48:11,780 --> 00:48:15,660
inch away, it's just not conceivable to
me that he would take a gun and actually

702
00:48:15,660 --> 00:48:16,760
use it against a person.

703
00:48:20,490 --> 00:48:22,270
He was such an unlikely assassin.

704
00:48:23,610 --> 00:48:29,090
He was kind of a chicken shit, to use an
American expression.

705
00:48:31,570 --> 00:48:36,310
Example, he worked as a grocery boy in a
store in Pasadena, and he got very

706
00:48:36,310 --> 00:48:41,050
angry with the owner one day, and then
he said, then I called him a goddamn son

707
00:48:41,050 --> 00:48:44,590
of a bitch. And I said, oh, did you call
him a goddamn son of a bitch right to

708
00:48:44,590 --> 00:48:47,490
his face? He said, no, I said it under
my breath so he couldn't hear me.

709
00:48:48,010 --> 00:48:52,270
Well, that kind of a guy, it's very
unlikely that he's going to be a macho

710
00:48:52,270 --> 00:48:53,270
assassin.

711
00:48:53,850 --> 00:48:55,890
How did he make that transformation?

712
00:48:56,850 --> 00:49:01,970
Sirhan was a highly suggestible young
man. He was not an idiot. He was quite

713
00:49:01,970 --> 00:49:06,070
intelligent. He was well -read. He stuck
to the story that he didn't remember,

714
00:49:06,190 --> 00:49:07,410
killing Robert Kennedy.

715
00:49:07,770 --> 00:49:11,090
Kaiser helped bring Grant Cooper into
the case as Sirhan's attorney.

716
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:14,710
He was kind of a warm, friendly human
being.

717
00:49:15,710 --> 00:49:20,530
who didn't think along the lines of
conspiracies, and he didn't have a

718
00:49:20,530 --> 00:49:21,810
suspicious mind at all.

719
00:49:22,070 --> 00:49:24,250
He pretty much took people at their face
value.

720
00:49:24,750 --> 00:49:27,610
Mr. Cooper said, well, he was there, and
he was there with a gun.

721
00:49:28,430 --> 00:49:31,370
There's nothing to do but plead guilty
and try to save his life.

722
00:49:31,690 --> 00:49:35,810
We were always at odds with the defense
team.

723
00:49:36,030 --> 00:49:40,670
In fact, Mother used to even write to
the judge at nighttime. She felt that

724
00:49:40,670 --> 00:49:41,850
attorneys weren't doing enough.

725
00:49:42,330 --> 00:49:46,470
We had so much eyewitness evidence that
Sirhan was indeed the shooter.

726
00:49:46,670 --> 00:49:51,670
We kind of took the LAPD's word for it,
and in the trial, that's what Cooper

727
00:49:51,670 --> 00:49:55,470
did. His idea was not to make the LAPD
look bad.

728
00:49:55,670 --> 00:50:02,110
It was to convince the jury that Sirhan
did not have the emotional capacity and

729
00:50:02,110 --> 00:50:06,550
the mental capacity to meaningfully and
maturely reflect on the gravity of his

730
00:50:06,550 --> 00:50:10,050
contemplated act. That's language from
the law, the law of diminished capacity

731
00:50:10,050 --> 00:50:11,050
in California.

732
00:50:11,470 --> 00:50:15,350
The diminished capacity defense was
based around Sirhan's fall from the

733
00:50:15,350 --> 00:50:19,450
1966. From the people that I talked to
that knew him before and that knew him

734
00:50:19,450 --> 00:50:25,410
after, they said he was never quite the
same after that.

735
00:50:25,690 --> 00:50:26,910
Never quite the same.

736
00:50:27,250 --> 00:50:31,950
The psychiatrists were, I guess, under
Cooper's direction, were trying to show

737
00:50:31,950 --> 00:50:34,710
that Sirhan's brain was the ticking
rate.

738
00:50:35,050 --> 00:50:39,430
And Parsons' favorite expression in
regards to Sirhan is, the boy is sick,

739
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:40,430
boy is sick.

740
00:50:40,750 --> 00:50:42,250
which we thought was a hideous
statement.

741
00:50:42,670 --> 00:50:46,050
We didn't know that there's a defense
that if you weren't in your proper frame

742
00:50:46,050 --> 00:50:48,830
of mind at the time that you did
something legally, it could help you.

743
00:50:49,410 --> 00:50:54,650
A normally conditioned American who's
been trained to kill and then to have no

744
00:50:54,650 --> 00:50:55,690
memory of having killed.

745
00:50:56,310 --> 00:51:00,590
Sirhan Sirhan was unconscious due to
hypnotic programming at the time of the

746
00:51:00,590 --> 00:51:04,690
assassination and had no knowledge or
memory of what happened or the

747
00:51:04,690 --> 00:51:05,690
process.

748
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,160
Defence psychiatrist Dr Bernard Diamond
used hypnosis to recover Sirhan's memory

749
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,140
of the shooting and explore his mental
state at the time.

750
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:18,520
Sirhan bought two boxes of .22 calibre
bullets at Lock, Stock and Barrel and

751
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,660
practised at a firing range for six
hours on the day of the shooting.

752
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,320
He bumped into a friend at Bob's Big Boy
and challenged him to a game of pool,

753
00:51:26,460 --> 00:51:30,300
but his friend cried off and Sirhan
drove down to check out the campaign

754
00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:31,300
at the Ambassador.

755
00:51:31,740 --> 00:51:35,920
He wasn't a drinker, but that night he
had four Tom Collins cocktails and soon

756
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,020
started feeling sleepy.

757
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,220
One of the problems Dr.

758
00:51:39,580 --> 00:51:44,020
Diamond had was that Sirhan couldn't
remember the actual shooting of Robert

759
00:51:44,020 --> 00:51:50,000
Kennedy. So he put him under hypnosis
and had him recreate the night of the

760
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:51,000
assassination.

761
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,060
He went back to the hotel in search of
coffee and met a girl by a coffee urn.

762
00:55:47,820 --> 00:55:50,720
Once brought out of hypnosis, Sirhan
again couldn't remember.

763
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:37,160
To me, it was obvious that he had been
programmed to kill Robert Kennedy and

764
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:38,740
programmed to forget that he'd been
programmed.

765
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,340
And there were all kinds of clues that
night that the police tried to suppress,

766
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:48,500
as a matter of fact. One key scene, he's
looking over the shoulder of a teletype

767
00:56:48,500 --> 00:56:54,060
operator in a press room near the
ambassador pantry, and she reported to

768
00:56:54,060 --> 00:56:56,740
police that he seemed in a kind of a
trance.

769
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,780
And the police told her, you don't tell
anybody that.

770
00:57:01,370 --> 00:57:06,150
After they finally subdued him, George
Plimpton, the writer, reported that

771
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:09,710
Sirhan's eyes were enormously peaceful.

772
00:57:11,710 --> 00:57:16,170
Strange. In the struggle for the gun,
Sirhan showed enormous strength

773
00:57:16,170 --> 00:57:20,330
Kennedy's bodyguards. When arresting
officers shone a flashlight in his eyes,

774
00:57:20,490 --> 00:57:24,710
his pupils were dilated and didn't
react, suggesting he may have been

775
00:57:25,020 --> 00:57:28,540
The stunning thing about Sirhan,
stunning fact about him, is that he went

776
00:57:28,540 --> 00:57:34,120
hypnosis so quickly and so willingly and
was so highly programmable to do things

777
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:38,140
like climbing the bars of his cell like
a monkey under post -hypnotic

778
00:57:38,140 --> 00:57:43,000
suggestion. If there had been some
handlers, whether from the CIA or

779
00:57:43,340 --> 00:57:47,260
they had a pretty fit subject on their
hands there in Sirhan Sirhan.

780
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:52,960
Dr. Diamond shied away from that theory
that Sirhan was a Manchurian candidate.

781
00:57:55,150 --> 00:57:58,790
He didn't want to look silly, and it was
a pretty outlandish theory.

782
00:57:59,470 --> 00:58:04,270
But the fact that so many years have
passed and he stuck to that story lead

783
00:58:04,270 --> 00:58:07,870
to think that he really didn't remember
shooting Robert Kennedy, that he

784
00:58:07,870 --> 00:58:13,230
probably killed Kennedy in a trance and
was programmed to forget that he'd done

785
00:58:13,230 --> 00:58:17,910
it and programmed to forget the names
and identities of others who might have

786
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:18,910
helped him do it.

787
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,860
Dr. Herbert Spiegel is the world
authority on hypnosis and has taught at

788
00:58:22,860 --> 00:58:25,060
Columbia University for over 40 years.

789
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:29,840
He seemed to be a very hypnotizable
person. The people who were programming

790
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:35,920
worked on the assumption that the
Israeli -Arab war was an insult to him

791
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:41,940
built up his first skepticism and his
anger to justify getting rid of somebody

792
00:58:41,940 --> 00:58:44,880
who is such an enemy of the Arab
culture.

793
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:50,140
Up to the time of the coffee, He was not
in a trance state. This was a part of

794
00:58:50,140 --> 00:58:52,220
their controlling his environment.

795
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:57,860
But probably after that, that's when
they induced the hypnosis with him. And

796
00:58:57,860 --> 00:59:02,560
from that time until it was all over, he
was in a trance state. So he had a

797
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,880
spontaneous amnesia for the whole event.

798
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,000
For hours after his arrest, Sirhan
happily chatted away to the police and

799
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,280
custody without once mentioning the
shooting.

800
00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:16,000
He didn't realise why he was held until
he was arraigned the next morning.

801
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:21,260
He does not have an emotional knowledge
that he committed a crime because he's

802
00:59:21,260 --> 00:59:26,840
totally dissociated from it. He could
easily feel at ease and sharp and alert

803
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,460
because he doesn't feel guilty about
anything.

804
00:59:30,620 --> 00:59:36,200
The prosecution discovered a notebook in
Sirhan's room that contained

805
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:41,300
repetitious incantations of the phrase,
RFK must die or RFK must be

806
00:59:41,300 --> 00:59:43,000
assassinated, up and down the page.

807
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,380
The prosecution was jubilant because it
regarded this as a Rosetta Stone, which

808
00:59:47,380 --> 00:59:51,580
confirmed that Sirhan had tried to
program himself into committing the

809
00:59:51,580 --> 00:59:53,700
assassination. They are the writings of
a maniac.

810
00:59:54,140 --> 00:59:55,240
It's my handwriting.

811
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:59,700
They are my thoughts, but I don't
remember them.

812
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:01,940
I don't have the guts to do anything
like that.

813
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,780
Sirhan later blamed the killing on
Kennedy's promise to send 50 bombers to

814
01:00:06,780 --> 01:00:10,700
Israel, and that June 5th in his
notebook marked the anniversary of

815
01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:12,660
victory in the Six -Day War the year
before.

816
01:00:13,660 --> 01:00:17,580
Sirhan first learned of Kennedy's
support for Israel in a television

817
01:00:17,580 --> 01:00:21,180
May 20th, yet he wrote the statement in
his notebook two days earlier.

818
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:27,020
Before trial in a hypnotic session
inside Sirhan's cell, Dr. Diamond asked

819
01:00:27,020 --> 01:00:29,940
Sirhan in trance, tell us more about
Robert Kennedy.

820
01:00:30,180 --> 01:00:36,160
And Sirhan wrote out the phrase, RFK
must die, die, RFK must die. The same

821
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:40,760
of repetitious phraseology, indicating
that the notebook was written in a

822
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:41,760
hypnotic trance as well.

823
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:48,760
Writing it down was his way of
reinforcing the direction of the

824
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:49,698
was going on.

825
01:00:49,700 --> 01:00:53,220
How much preparation time would we need
for something like this?

826
01:00:53,540 --> 01:00:58,500
A few months is all that's necessary
because he was so highly hypnotized.

827
01:00:58,540 --> 01:01:01,980
he could be very quickly programmed.

828
01:01:02,980 --> 01:01:07,260
change his perspective in a rather short
time and give him instructions.

829
01:01:07,580 --> 01:01:11,540
But the big thing would be to control
his environment, to see to it he was at

830
01:01:11,540 --> 01:01:15,820
the right place at the right time. There
was this woman in the polka dot dress

831
01:01:15,820 --> 01:01:20,600
and a man, whoever they are. And I just
assumed that they were the people who

832
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:27,440
were part of a team who programmed him,
and they were the agents to see to it he

833
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:28,440
was at the right place.

834
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,200
How much time every day would they need
to see him?

835
01:01:31,790 --> 01:01:33,470
for a couple of months to be able to
program it?

836
01:01:34,010 --> 01:01:40,750
If I were doing it, I think just one or
two hours a day would be enough.

837
01:01:42,250 --> 01:01:46,270
And how would you mask that so he
wouldn't be able to remember going to a

838
01:01:46,270 --> 01:01:48,950
certain place? Yeah, tell him that you
won't tell anybody about it. This would

839
01:01:48,950 --> 01:01:50,050
be our secret.

840
01:01:51,670 --> 01:01:55,350
The people who do it, if they do, don't
go around advertising it.

841
01:01:55,710 --> 01:02:00,290
And if they do it, they can be very
secretive the way they were secretive

842
01:02:00,290 --> 01:02:01,290
with...

843
01:02:01,450 --> 01:02:02,388
It's her hand.

844
01:02:02,390 --> 01:02:07,330
So I don't think we can say it's out of
style now or it's not being used now. We

845
01:02:07,330 --> 01:02:08,229
don't know.

846
01:02:08,230 --> 01:02:14,750
The CIA had an extensive mind control
operation underway, two of them, MK

847
01:02:14,750 --> 01:02:18,910
and Operation Artichoke. Operation
Artichoke began in 1953.

848
01:02:19,610 --> 01:02:23,770
One of its first experiments asked, can
an individual be made to perform an act

849
01:02:23,770 --> 01:02:27,830
of assassination involuntarily under the
influence of Artichoke against a

850
01:02:27,830 --> 01:02:30,730
prominent politician or, if necessary,
an American official?

851
01:02:31,090 --> 01:02:35,910
They discovered throughout the 50s and
the 60s that they could use

852
01:02:35,910 --> 01:02:41,310
hypnoprogramming to manipulate people
into committing crimes with no knowledge

853
01:02:41,310 --> 01:02:42,370
or memory of what they were doing.

854
01:02:42,570 --> 01:02:43,930
That's what happened to Sirhan.

855
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:49,760
By 1968, Operation Chaos saw the CIA
spying on anti -war protesters and the

856
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,120
Black Panthers with the help of the
LAPD's Intelligence Division.

857
01:02:53,420 --> 01:02:58,000
The LAPD does have a history of ties
with the CIA, and we know that in the

858
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,500
persons of two people who played a
critical role in the investigation,

859
01:03:02,500 --> 01:03:05,840
Peña and Sergeant Enrique or Hank
Hernandez.

860
01:03:06,260 --> 01:03:10,120
Hernandez told Sandra Serrano a little
about his background during her

861
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:11,120
test.

862
01:03:11,130 --> 01:03:15,630
I have been called to South America, to
Vietnam, and Europe, and I have

863
01:03:15,630 --> 01:03:16,629
administered tests.

864
01:03:16,630 --> 01:03:21,090
The last test that I administered was to
the dictator in Caracas, Venezuela.

865
01:03:21,310 --> 01:03:22,790
He was a big man, a dictator.

866
01:03:23,950 --> 01:03:29,630
And this is when there was a transition
in the government of Venezuela, and

867
01:03:29,630 --> 01:03:34,050
that's when President Betancourt came
in, but this is on me now. But there was

868
01:03:34,050 --> 01:03:36,650
great thing going on over there, and I
tested it, gentlemen.

869
01:03:37,370 --> 01:03:42,190
So what is an LAPD polygraph officer
doing in South America working for the U

870
01:03:42,190 --> 01:03:44,750
.S. government? That's an indication of
a CIA connection.

871
01:03:45,170 --> 01:03:50,550
In the case of Manuel Peña, Peña left
the LAPD shortly before the

872
01:03:50,550 --> 01:03:54,850
and went to work in South America for
the Agency for International

873
01:03:55,090 --> 01:03:57,750
a division of the State Department,
which is a known CIA front.

874
01:03:58,010 --> 01:04:03,110
Peña returned to Los Angeles and the
LAPD shortly before the assassination

875
01:04:03,110 --> 01:04:06,710
was given command of the Division of the
Special Investigation.

876
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:10,540
squad, especially with the senator,
which was concerned with conspiracy

877
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:15,200
Really working for poor people in this
country is a dangerous thing to do.

878
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,420
We found out that with King, Dr.

879
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,800
King. We found out with threats against
Chavez. We found out with Robert

880
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:27,140
Kennedy. Our main approach here would be
that the CIA planned the assassination.

881
01:04:27,980 --> 01:04:28,980
It's possible.

882
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:32,820
I mean, they've done worse things,
haven't they?

883
01:04:33,550 --> 01:04:37,170
In fact, that's where Robert Kennedy
went first, so you probably know that.

884
01:04:38,130 --> 01:04:41,890
When he first heard that his brother was
killed, he called John McCone, head of

885
01:04:41,890 --> 01:04:44,990
the CIA, and said, did your guys do it?

886
01:04:46,510 --> 01:04:51,350
By 1968, Bobby Kennedy posed a huge
threat to the CIA.

887
01:04:51,690 --> 01:04:55,490
He was a loose cannon, soft on
communism, and a champion of the

888
01:04:55,910 --> 01:05:00,110
And if elected, he would stop the war,
take control of the CIA, and

889
01:05:00,110 --> 01:05:01,510
reinvestigate his brother's death.

890
01:05:01,900 --> 01:05:03,280
throwing the spotlight on the agency.

891
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:08,200
I discovered new footage, which appeared
to show three senior CIA agents at the

892
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:09,460
Ambassador Hotel that night.

893
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:13,500
But to understand who these men were and
the bitterness between the CIA and

894
01:05:13,500 --> 01:05:16,020
Bobby Kennedy, we have to go back to the
Bay of Pigs.

895
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:23,200
Kennedy was handed the CIA's plan for
the invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs

896
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:27,740
1961, and of course, as the world knows,
it was a colossal failure.

897
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,880
The CIA blamed the Kennedys for
withdrawing air support at the last

898
01:05:32,060 --> 01:05:34,700
leaving the men they had trained to be
massacred on the beaches.

899
01:05:34,980 --> 01:05:39,840
The failure of the Bay of Pigs placed
the Kennedy administration in huge

900
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:43,440
embarrassment. Something had to be done
about Castro.

901
01:05:43,660 --> 01:05:47,900
Robert Kennedy took over, in effect, the
operative direction of the CIA.

902
01:05:48,260 --> 01:05:53,100
I was an active duty army officer, a
regular army captain, in 1963.

903
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:58,680
with a specialty in covert and
paramilitary intelligence operations.

904
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:03,820
Suddenly was beckoned to Washington, D
.C., and offered an opportunity to serve

905
01:06:03,820 --> 01:06:10,800
with the CIA in a secret war against
Cuba. I transferred to South Florida, to

906
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:16,240
JM Wave, which is the only CIA station
that was ever established on U .S. soil.

907
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,460
I met the assistant chief of station, a
fellow by the name of Gordon Campbell.

908
01:06:22,270 --> 01:06:28,310
who later became my case officer on a
particular mission shortly before the

909
01:06:28,310 --> 01:06:29,310
Kennedy assassination.

910
01:06:29,450 --> 01:06:33,690
I also worked with a fellow by the name
of David Morales, who was the chief of

911
01:06:33,690 --> 01:06:39,470
operations. The concept was to conduct
covert paramilitary operations

912
01:06:39,470 --> 01:06:46,350
involving infiltration and commando
raids in an effort to destabilize Cuba.

913
01:06:46,530 --> 01:06:50,470
We also embarked on efforts to
assassinate Fidel Castro.

914
01:06:51,020 --> 01:06:55,560
Bobby Kennedy, chairing the special
group, had to pass on each and every

915
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:59,620
mission. It created a huge amount of
resentment on the part of the

916
01:06:59,620 --> 01:07:06,620
people at JM Wave, particularly, I know
for a fact, Morales, because I had sat

917
01:07:06,620 --> 01:07:11,080
in on briefings or heard him go into a
rage in his office where he would throw

918
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:14,800
chairs and go absolutely berserk.

919
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:20,080
When the word came down that that
operation had to be changed or possibly

920
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:25,460
canceled because the risk of attribution
and unintended consequences was too

921
01:07:25,460 --> 01:07:26,460
great.

922
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:33,400
I will never forget being on the steps
of the cathedral after the assassination

923
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:37,420
and seeing Bob Kennedy come down the
steps. I never have seen a more ravaged

924
01:07:37,420 --> 01:07:42,000
in my life. He didn't know who was
responsible for the murder of his

925
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:43,600
Was it the CIA?

926
01:07:44,020 --> 01:07:47,320
Was it Cuban nationals? Was it part of
the Cuban brigade?

927
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:52,700
There was such guilt about the role that
he played. And did I inadvertently set

928
01:07:52,700 --> 01:07:55,820
in motion the forces that led to my
brother's death?

929
01:07:56,140 --> 01:08:01,520
The word around the station was that
Castro had killed Kennedy and that

930
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:08,060
was an operative, a Castro operative.
Deep in my guts, I had some

931
01:08:08,060 --> 01:08:14,960
feeling that what we... had been doing
down there was in

932
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:15,960
some way connected.

933
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:20,760
But there was also a kind of gnawing
suspicion about some of the things I had

934
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:25,640
heard at the station, the anti -Kennedy
comments, the sentiments that were

935
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:30,160
expressed about the Bay of Pigs, just
discussed with the Kennedy

936
01:08:30,540 --> 01:08:36,220
From that point forward, I had growing
suspicions about the agency's role in

937
01:08:36,220 --> 01:08:38,220
Kennedy, in John Kennedy's
assassination.

938
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:46,040
The secrets of both Kennedy
assassinations may lie buried in a

939
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:47,040
in Arizona.

940
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:03,660
Morales was a legendary backstreet
operator for the CIA.

941
01:09:04,060 --> 01:09:07,960
If you saw him on the streets of a South
American capital, you knew a coup was

942
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:08,960
about to happen.

943
01:09:09,069 --> 01:09:11,189
That's when the terrorists took over for
three and a half years.

944
01:09:11,430 --> 01:09:12,710
They went from door to door.

945
01:09:13,450 --> 01:09:14,569
You know,

946
01:09:15,910 --> 01:09:19,470
as soon as they opened the door, you had
to kill children, old men, children,

947
01:09:19,630 --> 01:09:22,689
old men. Anybody that was there got
killed right down the line.

948
01:09:23,029 --> 01:09:27,069
All these holy people are thinking, by
talking to people, you're going to get

949
01:09:27,069 --> 01:09:28,069
done. You've got to kill them.

950
01:09:32,850 --> 01:09:36,350
He was striding around the room, and he
was out of control.

951
01:09:36,689 --> 01:09:38,310
And I don't...

952
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:43,500
I don't ever recall seeing him lose it
like that before.

953
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,800
And what was his actual comment then
that finished that?

954
01:09:47,020 --> 01:09:53,899
It was something like, I was in Dallas
when we got that

955
01:09:53,899 --> 01:09:57,540
motherfucker and I was in Los Angeles
when we got the little bastard.

956
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:04,360
What it said to me was that he was in
some way

957
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:06,340
implicated with...

958
01:10:06,890 --> 01:10:08,550
the death of John Kennedy.

959
01:10:09,350 --> 01:10:13,090
And let's go one step further, and also
Bobby.

960
01:10:13,450 --> 01:10:18,530
They were sort of getting some
information about what happened down

961
01:10:18,530 --> 01:10:19,530
know, to Dallas.

962
01:10:20,770 --> 01:10:27,530
And as we were drinking, he let them
know around about way,

963
01:10:27,710 --> 01:10:30,310
well, we got the son of a bitch. That's
what he said.

964
01:10:31,790 --> 01:10:37,650
And so in the same conversation, Robert
said that, and Denny said, I was in Los

965
01:10:37,650 --> 01:10:40,850
Angeles too when we got the little
bastard, meaning Bobby.

966
01:10:41,670 --> 01:10:46,970
No, he was in Los Angeles, but he didn't
say that we got him, you know, that

967
01:10:46,970 --> 01:10:47,970
they got him.

968
01:10:48,290 --> 01:10:51,470
Because that's just a difference, you
know, the wording, you know.

969
01:10:52,150 --> 01:10:55,770
Because the only reason he'd be in that
area at that moment, because his

970
01:10:55,770 --> 01:10:59,290
daughters were married, you know, one of
them was living over there, you know.

971
01:11:04,300 --> 01:11:06,120
I said, what's the matter with you,
Diddy?

972
01:11:07,140 --> 01:11:09,460
He said, I don't feel too good. I said,
why not?

973
01:11:10,020 --> 01:11:13,660
He said, I had a few drinks with my
cronies up there before I left West D

974
01:11:13,660 --> 01:11:14,519
said, really?

975
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:17,380
He said, on the plane, I've been feeling
good. I said,

976
01:11:18,580 --> 01:11:21,700
I was just waiting for you because I'm
going to take off and go to Wilcox. He

977
01:11:21,700 --> 01:11:23,920
used to leave his truck right then and
drive over there.

978
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:28,620
Okay, well then, let me know as soon as
you get there. Let me know how you feel.

979
01:11:29,260 --> 01:11:30,300
You got me worried.

980
01:11:31,070 --> 01:11:34,790
You don't look the same no more, you
know. I mean, he's always happy -go

981
01:11:35,110 --> 01:11:37,230
That night, Morales had a massive heart
attack.

982
01:11:37,450 --> 01:11:40,270
The ambulance took hours to arrive and
didn't bring any oxygen.

983
01:11:40,550 --> 01:11:41,950
Within a week, he was dead.

984
01:11:42,290 --> 01:11:47,970
They waited five hours to get him to the
hospital to

985
01:11:47,970 --> 01:11:53,950
make damn sure that he didn't... I guess
he wanted him dead, I guess, real good,

986
01:11:54,030 --> 01:11:55,510
by orders, I don't know.

987
01:11:55,830 --> 01:11:57,970
And when you say they, who killed David?

988
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,000
They would have to draw you a picture,
the same people he worked for.

989
01:12:04,540 --> 01:12:05,519
The CIA?

990
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:07,440
Yeah, because he was going to go before
the Senate.

991
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:11,760
They summoned him to go before the
Senate. Before he could get there, they

992
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:12,760
knocked him off.

993
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:14,840
But he knew too much.

994
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:18,220
He was the number one winner in the CIA.

995
01:12:18,500 --> 01:12:21,900
He only had two bosses, the president
and the head of the CIA.

996
01:12:22,620 --> 01:12:24,120
And didn't he have plans to teach?

997
01:12:24,540 --> 01:12:28,920
Yeah, he wanted to go teach at Flagstaff
Political Science.

998
01:12:55,760 --> 01:13:02,540
Yeah, that's the figure that I had
previously identified as Morales.

999
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:07,940
His nose was a little more flattened,
but the stance, the shoulders, the face,

1000
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:13,880
the pie astute, the general facial
impression is an individual that I would

1001
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:19,540
identify as Morales to practically 100 %
degree.

1002
01:13:41,780 --> 01:13:42,780
Police,

1003
01:13:48,820 --> 01:13:50,320
could we ask for your cooperation?

1004
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:55,660
Those of you inside of this circle
around here, could you move back,

1005
01:13:55,660 --> 01:14:00,500
a way you can't do anything, and you
can't see anything, and there's nothing

1006
01:14:00,500 --> 01:14:01,500
here.

1007
01:14:01,630 --> 01:14:05,450
This definitely, from the profile, is
hugely similar.

1008
01:14:05,750 --> 01:14:10,490
The body language is very, very much
characteristic of Morales.

1009
01:14:11,310 --> 01:14:16,030
See how he moves back and forth very
casually, not to attract attention to

1010
01:14:16,030 --> 01:14:20,310
himself? That is no question.

1011
01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:25,530
I also showed these clips to Wayne
Smith, who worked with Morales at the U

1012
01:14:25,530 --> 01:14:27,290
Embassy in Havana in 1959.

1013
01:14:30,730 --> 01:14:31,750
That's Dave Morales.

1014
01:14:32,470 --> 01:14:33,470
Really?

1015
01:14:39,290 --> 01:14:41,430
Yeah, I'm virtually certain.

1016
01:14:41,650 --> 01:14:42,650
Is there anything?

1017
01:14:42,930 --> 01:14:46,610
No, we see him again. Oh, go ahead.
Yeah, and you'll see him repeated.

1018
01:14:48,390 --> 01:14:49,390
Yeah.

1019
01:14:50,770 --> 01:14:51,770
Yeah,

1020
01:14:52,690 --> 01:14:54,750
when he turns that way, that's Morales.

1021
01:14:54,970 --> 01:14:55,970
That's Morales.

1022
01:14:56,590 --> 01:15:02,290
Yeah, I knew Morales quite well. He
worked in the CIA station in Havana when

1023
01:15:02,290 --> 01:15:05,270
was third secretary of the political
section.

1024
01:15:05,790 --> 01:15:08,870
59 until we broke relations in 61.

1025
01:15:09,270 --> 01:15:14,050
And saw him again a number of times.
When I saw him in Argentina, we got into

1026
01:15:14,050 --> 01:15:18,410
argument about Kennedy, Bay of Pigs and
all that.

1027
01:15:19,210 --> 01:15:25,270
And what he said was that Kennedy got...

1028
01:15:25,500 --> 01:15:26,560
what was coming to him.

1029
01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:33,220
And did he give any indication that he
might have been involved in something?

1030
01:15:33,220 --> 01:15:37,820
didn't. He said Kennedy got what was
coming to him. He said it in a very

1031
01:15:37,820 --> 01:15:44,780
determined way, so he took great
satisfaction in it,

1032
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:45,860
but no, he didn't.

1033
01:15:46,180 --> 01:15:49,140
Is there a benign explanation for why he
would be there?

1034
01:15:49,500 --> 01:15:52,440
Well, I don't see any. I mean, if...

1035
01:15:53,900 --> 01:15:59,360
If the CIA or the security division or
the Department of State ordered him to

1036
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:03,700
there to protect Bobby Kennedy, that
would be one thing. But I don't think

1037
01:16:03,700 --> 01:16:09,200
that's the case. And if they didn't,
then there is no benign explanation that

1038
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:10,200
can think of.

1039
01:16:10,480 --> 01:16:13,760
And is David Morales a suitable figure
to protect Bobby Kennedy?

1040
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:15,040
No.

1041
01:16:16,460 --> 01:16:21,760
No, I mean, in my wildest imagination, I
couldn't imagine signing David Morales

1042
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:23,500
to protect any of the Kennedys.

1043
01:16:23,740 --> 01:16:27,400
Bobby Kennedy is assassinated. David
Morales is there.

1044
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:30,840
Well, the two things have to be related.

1045
01:16:32,580 --> 01:16:36,400
After these interviews, I found more
clips of the same man emerging from the

1046
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:38,240
pantry among a group of police officers.

1047
01:16:40,820 --> 01:16:43,100
And was taken away by the police.

1048
01:16:44,620 --> 01:16:48,260
As we understand it, there was only one
person involved in the shooting.

1049
01:16:48,780 --> 01:16:52,920
Minutes later, he's seen lurking in
shadow outside the pantry doorway and

1050
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:57,040
popping his head around the doorway two
minutes later to listen to Valerie

1051
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:59,580
Schulte, the official girl in the polka
dot dress.

1052
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:04,320
Again, Ayres and Smith identified this
man as David Morales.

1053
01:17:05,380 --> 01:17:09,380
The LAPD showed a 20 -minute film of the
shooting to witnesses and

1054
01:17:09,380 --> 01:17:10,380
investigators.

1055
01:17:10,780 --> 01:17:14,600
It included the following clip of two
men walking through the ballroom from

1056
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:18,060
direction of the pantry as panic spreads
that Kennedy has been shot.

1057
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:21,400
There is no mention of them in the
police investigation file.

1058
01:17:39,310 --> 01:17:43,010
Certainly verified 90 % ID of Gordon
Campbell.

1059
01:17:43,330 --> 01:17:48,570
Less a little hair, as I remembered him.
The facial features are certainly his.

1060
01:17:49,350 --> 01:17:53,230
Absolutely. And, you know, I'm looking
beyond the face. I'm looking at the body

1061
01:17:53,230 --> 01:17:54,230
that carries.

1062
01:17:54,410 --> 01:17:55,530
Take a look at that again.

1063
01:17:55,870 --> 01:17:57,190
Obviously, the two of them are together.

1064
01:17:57,770 --> 01:18:02,690
They're looking for a way out because
this fellow is guiding him, showing him

1065
01:18:02,690 --> 01:18:07,120
exit. Campbell also appears in a
photograph taken in the ballroom a

1066
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:08,160
hours before the shooting.

1067
01:18:08,420 --> 01:18:09,960
Can you identify the man with him?

1068
01:18:10,740 --> 01:18:14,460
No, I told you that face is familiar,
but I looked at that photograph.

1069
01:18:16,420 --> 01:18:17,420
I can't.

1070
01:18:17,660 --> 01:18:23,180
It does not surprise me at all that
these folks would be so audacious as to

1071
01:18:23,180 --> 01:18:25,320
believe that they could pull this off.
In fact, they did.

1072
01:18:30,060 --> 01:18:36,060
I had been told by a group of people
that I was working with that had worked

1073
01:18:36,060 --> 01:18:37,640
Central Intelligence.

1074
01:18:38,740 --> 01:18:45,680
We did a short project in alarm systems
just days before

1075
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:50,760
that. And they had mentioned that at the
Ambassador Hotel, I said, hey, Rayburn,

1076
01:18:50,820 --> 01:18:52,680
don't you go there all the time? And I
said, yeah.

1077
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:57,100
I live just down the road. He says, wow,
they're going to have a big to -do

1078
01:18:57,100 --> 01:18:58,100
there. Are you going to be there?

1079
01:18:58,600 --> 01:18:59,660
I said, yeah, I could be there.

1080
01:19:00,340 --> 01:19:05,680
So just one of those things. That's not
an unusual thing for any of the

1081
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:10,500
agencies. Even police departments will
give free tickets to functions and such

1082
01:19:10,500 --> 01:19:12,560
as that just to have their people in the
audience.

1083
01:19:13,020 --> 01:19:18,460
I was walking across, going towards the
front doors when I heard the gunshots.

1084
01:19:19,340 --> 01:19:24,300
And, you know, it's just like a little
pop, pop, pop, popping sound. You can

1085
01:19:24,300 --> 01:19:25,300
barely hear.

1086
01:19:25,790 --> 01:19:27,010
Could he have done it alone?

1087
01:19:27,310 --> 01:19:28,370
I don't think so.

1088
01:19:28,730 --> 01:19:32,330
I don't think the man's makeup would
have allowed him to do that in the first

1089
01:19:32,330 --> 01:19:35,570
place. I think there was probably a lot
of people involved.

1090
01:19:36,910 --> 01:19:40,370
Why that never came out is a mystery
still.

1091
01:19:42,670 --> 01:19:48,710
He showed me the picture, and I told him
that I'd seen the guy there on the

1092
01:19:48,710 --> 01:19:52,530
premises. I didn't see him in the
ballroom. I saw him out in the lobby

1093
01:19:55,390 --> 01:19:56,390
He was in and out.

1094
01:19:58,150 --> 01:19:59,150
I see him there.

1095
01:19:59,270 --> 01:20:00,270
Yes.

1096
01:20:00,630 --> 01:20:01,630
How are you doing?

1097
01:20:02,690 --> 01:20:04,210
I was playing on the tiny bus.

1098
01:20:04,830 --> 01:20:05,970
Oh, that's him, yeah.

1099
01:20:06,970 --> 01:20:09,330
So do you think that's the same man that
you saw in the photograph?

1100
01:20:09,630 --> 01:20:10,630
Oh, yeah.

1101
01:20:10,970 --> 01:20:11,970
That's him.

1102
01:20:13,710 --> 01:20:17,450
Yeah. They definitely were observing and
collecting information.

1103
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:20,740
Okay, I just want you to have a look at
this photograph.

1104
01:20:21,100 --> 01:20:25,740
The two men in the center, this
photograph was taken in the ballroom. I

1105
01:20:25,740 --> 01:20:28,360
wonder if you saw either of those men
that night?

1106
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:35,660
This man here, the bald one? Yeah. I
think he was talking to Morales

1107
01:20:35,660 --> 01:20:37,560
at one time.

1108
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:41,980
So you'd be sure then that the man on
the left in the photograph was talking

1109
01:20:41,980 --> 01:20:43,060
Morales at one time?

1110
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:44,440
I'm almost certain, yeah.

1111
01:20:45,340 --> 01:20:48,220
They've got the military stance, arms
behind their back.

1112
01:20:49,260 --> 01:20:50,260
That's a dead giveaway.

1113
01:20:51,780 --> 01:20:56,460
So this is a swing door to the pantry,
and we have a small mustachioed man

1114
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:58,200
and we have our bald man here.

1115
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:00,180
Yep, there he is.

1116
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:03,880
Is this the same man that you saw there
on the map?

1117
01:21:04,140 --> 01:21:05,140
Oh, yeah.

1118
01:21:07,460 --> 01:21:08,460
That's him.

1119
01:21:08,700 --> 01:21:11,900
Because their central intelligence
doesn't make them bad guys

1120
01:21:13,530 --> 01:21:16,410
They are out there protecting our
country like everyone.

1121
01:21:18,330 --> 01:21:21,490
But in the same token, it doesn't mean
they can't have turned bad.

1122
01:21:22,070 --> 01:21:28,630
Sirhan Sirhan was probably one of
several that were armed and ready to

1123
01:21:28,990 --> 01:21:33,830
Sirhan Sirhan was, in my opinion, also a
throwaway. He's what we call the

1124
01:21:33,830 --> 01:21:36,290
shooter in the public side.

1125
01:21:36,970 --> 01:21:38,670
But who the real shooter was?

1126
01:21:39,750 --> 01:21:42,150
On this level here, you get a
professional.

1127
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:47,880
And a professional you'll never see,
you'll never know, you'll never know

1128
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:50,140
anything except that they were there.
That's about it.

1129
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:55,500
We've camouflaged firearms in all
different kinds of configurations.

1130
01:21:56,160 --> 01:22:02,380
Sometimes it looked like a day timer,
first light situation.

1131
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:07,560
It'd show a zipper on the outside, but
it had velcro and you could pop it open.

1132
01:22:08,180 --> 01:22:09,720
Would they have used the silencer?

1133
01:22:12,890 --> 01:22:13,990
Strongly possible, yeah.

1134
01:22:14,670 --> 01:22:17,450
Silence can be made out of all kinds of
things, too.

1135
01:22:17,830 --> 01:22:22,230
Maybe a book or something like that
could be inside that, and it could be

1136
01:22:22,230 --> 01:22:26,130
muffled. You walk up into a busy area
like an airport or whatever and stand

1137
01:22:26,130 --> 01:22:29,270
to somebody and pop them, boom, boom,
and just walk away.

1138
01:22:29,750 --> 01:22:32,150
As they fall, you're going the other
direction.

1139
01:22:32,370 --> 01:22:35,530
That would have been the proper way to
do it, and just disappear.

1140
01:22:36,110 --> 01:22:39,690
Not get out there like Sirhan Sirhan did
and start shooting his gun.

1141
01:22:40,740 --> 01:22:45,020
I mean, that could have been to draw
that away from the real shooter.

1142
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:46,960
Suspicion?

1143
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:48,620
High, high suspicion.

1144
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:54,260
Yes, I can't deny that. Why they were
doing the things that they were doing,

1145
01:22:54,400 --> 01:23:00,080
I'm surprised that that was never
investigated.

1146
01:23:00,440 --> 01:23:05,620
After all of these years, you'd think
that someone would have noticed these

1147
01:23:05,620 --> 01:23:06,620
things.

1148
01:23:06,779 --> 01:23:08,700
and done something about them.

1149
01:23:08,960 --> 01:23:13,680
And can you say anything about how you
knew Gordon Campbell or what you know of

1150
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:14,680
him, who he was?

1151
01:23:17,620 --> 01:23:18,620
No.

1152
01:23:19,620 --> 01:23:20,620
Okay.

1153
01:23:21,140 --> 01:23:22,920
But you have met Gordon Campbell?

1154
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:27,260
I've seen pictures of him.

1155
01:23:28,320 --> 01:23:31,880
Do you know if Campbell is still alive?

1156
01:23:33,460 --> 01:23:34,960
To my knowledge, yes.

1157
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:37,360
Do you know where?

1158
01:23:39,460 --> 01:23:40,500
Um, no.

1159
01:23:41,660 --> 01:23:45,560
David later told me he had seen Campbell
several times in the year before the

1160
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:47,660
assassination in a police station
environment.

1161
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:52,020
With Campbell now linked to Morales, I
turn my attention to the third man

1162
01:23:52,020 --> 01:23:53,800
standing next to Campbell in the
photograph.

1163
01:23:54,360 --> 01:24:00,120
I first met George Ioannidis in 1977
when I was working at the House of the

1164
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:01,280
Committee on Assassinations.

1165
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,620
Let me just take you back a minute. Here
we were, a congressional committee.

1166
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:09,100
investigating who might have killed a
president back in 1963.

1167
01:24:10,180 --> 01:24:13,380
As you know, the majority of the
American public at the time thought

1168
01:24:13,380 --> 01:24:14,380
been a conspiracy.

1169
01:24:14,460 --> 01:24:17,680
I had been a law student at Cornell Law
School.

1170
01:24:17,900 --> 01:24:23,040
I was a bit of a rebel, and so was Dan
Hardaway, my partner, looking at these

1171
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:29,600
files. We would dress up in cut -off
shorts just below our crotch area, and

1172
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:32,160
would show up at the CIA in these
outfits.

1173
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:36,440
The man the CIA called out of retirement
to act as their liaison to the

1174
01:24:36,440 --> 01:24:40,300
committee was George Ioannidis. He never
disclosed he worked as chief of

1175
01:24:40,300 --> 01:24:44,540
psychological warfare operations at the
CIA's Miami base in 1963.

1176
01:24:45,140 --> 01:24:49,900
George Ioannidis was the guy who was
supposed to be our point person.

1177
01:24:50,180 --> 01:24:56,620
He was probably in his mid -50s, a
dapper guy, funny and affable. He might

1178
01:24:56,620 --> 01:25:00,260
with you about a football game or a
baseball game or a movie.

1179
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:04,920
that you'd seen. But when we got down to
work, he was all business.

1180
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:09,480
What we could see, what we couldn't see,
why we could see something, why we

1181
01:25:09,480 --> 01:25:12,580
couldn't see something, why it was
redacted, why it wasn't redacted.

1182
01:25:12,900 --> 01:25:16,560
I mean, George was the gatekeeper. He
was the guy who stonewalled us.

1183
01:25:16,900 --> 01:25:22,300
The Lopez report has become known over
the years, basically concluded there was

1184
01:25:22,300 --> 01:25:28,890
some type of a relationship between the
CIA, and Lee Harvey

1185
01:25:28,890 --> 01:25:33,830
Oswald. Exactly what that relationship
was, we could never tell. I have no

1186
01:25:33,830 --> 01:25:37,450
in my mind that he was being run by
someone at the CIA.

1187
01:25:37,910 --> 01:25:41,330
Was there a connection to the point
where they were running the

1188
01:25:41,650 --> 01:25:42,710
That we could not confirm.

1189
01:25:44,330 --> 01:25:48,850
Oswald spent the summer of 1963 in New
Orleans, coming as the age -supporting

1190
01:25:48,850 --> 01:25:53,330
customer. Here he had a well -publicized
confrontation with the CIA -sponsored

1191
01:25:53,330 --> 01:25:55,330
disaster group called the DRO.

1192
01:26:08,980 --> 01:26:15,280
How could we trust anything that the CIA
was giving us if the guy that was our

1193
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:20,680
point of contact who controlled what we
saw or didn't see happened to have been

1194
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:24,240
a person whom we would have investigated
back then had we...

1195
01:26:24,540 --> 01:26:25,700
We'd known who he was.

1196
01:26:26,140 --> 01:26:31,540
Let me now show you a photograph that
was taken in the Ambassador Hotel the

1197
01:26:31,540 --> 01:26:32,780
night Robert Kennedy died.

1198
01:26:33,140 --> 01:26:37,060
And I'd like you to look at the figure
on the right centre of frame.

1199
01:26:37,320 --> 01:26:41,300
Well, when I look at this picture, to me
it's a younger George Ioannidis.

1200
01:26:41,620 --> 01:26:47,580
I couldn't say 100 % that it's him, but
if I was a betting man, I'm 99 % sure

1201
01:26:47,580 --> 01:26:50,060
that it's George Ioannidis.

1202
01:26:50,380 --> 01:26:53,300
The guy is young and in shape.

1203
01:26:54,350 --> 01:26:56,330
Always standing, you know, stands erect.

1204
01:26:57,230 --> 01:27:03,190
It's the way I remember him being. The
glasses, his hair slightly receding.

1205
01:27:03,410 --> 01:27:08,670
I mean, you just look at him and you
say, this is the guy that I spent many

1206
01:27:08,670 --> 01:27:13,750
hours with at Langley. This is George
Jonas.

1207
01:27:14,950 --> 01:27:17,670
George Jonas is an enigma to me.

1208
01:27:17,990 --> 01:27:20,450
After he died, when I heard that...

1209
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:24,720
he'd been involved with JM Wave, that
he'd been involved with the DRE.

1210
01:27:26,380 --> 01:27:31,840
And now looking at this photo, it
doesn't surprise me for a minute to find

1211
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:37,040
at the Ambassador Hotel on the day that
Bobby Kennedy was shot.

1212
01:27:38,460 --> 01:27:44,920
If he was level operative, that he
appears to have been through DRE and JM

1213
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:49,520
if another operation was going on, that
was key.

1214
01:27:50,090 --> 01:27:51,090
he would have been there.

1215
01:27:51,210 --> 01:27:54,830
These are people who will do anything
for the good of their country. And if it

1216
01:27:54,830 --> 01:28:01,530
meant assassinating a second candidate
to make sure that he didn't rise to

1217
01:28:01,530 --> 01:28:03,870
because he would be dangerous for the
country,

1218
01:28:04,850 --> 01:28:05,850
they'd do it.

1219
01:28:06,330 --> 01:28:09,570
Journalists David Talbot and Jefferson
Morley found two others who could

1220
01:28:09,570 --> 01:28:10,670
identify Joe Inidis.

1221
01:28:11,110 --> 01:28:15,990
Ed Lopez, investigative partner Dan
Hardway, and Chilo Borja, a key figure

1222
01:28:15,990 --> 01:28:16,990
the DRE.

1223
01:28:17,130 --> 01:28:20,030
The Joannidis family have refused to
comment on the photograph.

1224
01:28:20,910 --> 01:28:25,070
I also found more photographs of
Campbell and Joannidis in the ballroom,

1225
01:28:25,070 --> 01:28:28,170
from behind, with a third man I have not
been able to identify.

1226
01:28:30,590 --> 01:28:34,410
I had now identified three senior
operatives at the hotel with three

1227
01:28:34,410 --> 01:28:35,610
unidentified associates.

1228
01:28:36,270 --> 01:28:40,750
The man who connects all three is the
late Ted Shackley, station chief at JM

1229
01:28:40,750 --> 01:28:44,990
Wave and later Saigon, where Morales and
Joannidis would again work for him in

1230
01:28:44,990 --> 01:28:45,990
the late 60s.

1231
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:48,800
Above him, the chain of command led
right to the top.

1232
01:28:49,320 --> 01:28:52,980
Someone else, high up, would know about
it.

1233
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:58,420
Would four other people know about it?
No. But one other person high up would

1234
01:28:58,420 --> 01:29:02,040
know about it. But that nothing would be
written about it so that it couldn't be

1235
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:06,260
traced because the issue of plausible
deniability was paramount with the

1236
01:29:06,920 --> 01:29:13,380
Our witnesses leading off today are Mr.
Richard

1237
01:29:13,380 --> 01:29:17,760
Helms. who was the director of the CIA
during the period in question.

1238
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:22,200
Is it policy not to transmit some things
in writing? Sir, when the day comes

1239
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:25,380
that an intelligence organization,
particularly a secret intelligence

1240
01:29:25,380 --> 01:29:28,700
organization, everything has to be put
in writing, it's going to come to a

1241
01:29:28,700 --> 01:29:30,240
resounding halt, I'm afraid.

1242
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:35,400
And if I had to pick one person who
would know this operation, it would be

1243
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:36,400
Richard Holmes.

1244
01:29:36,480 --> 01:29:40,540
He was this angry, very cruel guy.

1245
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:45,720
So the agent gives the Cuban agent the
device to kill somebody.

1246
01:29:46,660 --> 01:29:49,680
I'm sorry he didn't give him a pistol
because it would have made the whole

1247
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:51,060
a lot simpler and less exotic.

1248
01:29:53,220 --> 01:29:59,440
Well, whether it's a pistol or a needle,
if Amlash is a political plot to

1249
01:29:59,440 --> 01:30:03,520
destabilize the government, what in the
blazes are we giving an agent a device

1250
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:06,560
that will kill Castro with for if it's
not an assassination plot?

1251
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:10,400
Well, if you want to have it that way,
why don't you just have it that way?

1252
01:30:10,890 --> 01:30:15,630
He had no respect for what we were
doing. He was angry about being where he

1253
01:30:17,190 --> 01:30:21,810
And he had no compunction about letting
us know what his feelings were. It sort

1254
01:30:21,810 --> 01:30:22,810
of blew us away.

1255
01:30:23,230 --> 01:30:28,530
Helms initiated the CIA's mind control
program in 1953 and was a close

1256
01:30:28,530 --> 01:30:31,990
of the man who ran it for the next 20
years, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb.

1257
01:30:32,310 --> 01:30:36,610
But as I built my case against the CIA,
I also had to factor in some negative

1258
01:30:36,610 --> 01:30:39,850
identifications. OK, see the figure in
the white shirt here?

1259
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:44,360
No, no. This one right here?

1260
01:30:45,100 --> 01:30:46,380
Yeah. No way.

1261
01:30:46,620 --> 01:30:47,620
No? Nuh -uh.

1262
01:30:48,100 --> 01:30:52,120
No way. That's not him at all.

1263
01:30:54,660 --> 01:30:55,660
That's not him.

1264
01:30:55,740 --> 01:30:57,440
Is there any resemblance at all? No.

1265
01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:00,800
Well, that's the same person it was
before.

1266
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:04,080
There was a security guard there for
Kennedy.

1267
01:31:04,480 --> 01:31:06,980
I guarantee you there was no security
guard for him.

1268
01:31:08,380 --> 01:31:10,520
That's not him. I guarantee you it's not
him.

1269
01:31:13,370 --> 01:31:20,270
I really don't know why Rubin would
respond that way. I guess

1270
01:31:20,270 --> 01:31:27,150
probably when confronted with a
photograph, which would be pretty hard

1271
01:31:27,290 --> 01:31:34,110
putting him on the spot, may be
reluctant to condemn his lifelong

1272
01:31:34,110 --> 01:31:38,940
friend. He can live with the thought
that Morales may have been involved in

1273
01:31:38,940 --> 01:31:45,920
way, almost be proud of it, but to ID
him may be just too far reach for

1274
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:46,920
him.

1275
01:31:47,660 --> 01:31:49,180
And it doesn't surprise me.

1276
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:53,960
I also interviewed Tom Clines and Ed
Wilson, close colleagues of Morales who

1277
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:55,320
weren't willing to go on camera.

1278
01:31:55,860 --> 01:31:57,640
Wilson didn't recognize Morales.

1279
01:31:58,100 --> 01:32:01,640
Clines said it looked like him, but
Morales walked with his tie down and

1280
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:03,780
a slouch, which I found a little
strange.

1281
01:32:04,460 --> 01:32:08,520
On balance, I still felt I was on the
right track with my three suspects and

1282
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:10,500
aired the story in a segment on the BBC.

1283
01:32:11,140 --> 01:32:16,400
Now, formally, I believe the CIA have
said what about these guys? You know, I

1284
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:20,680
mean, the comments you'd expect, that
they can't go into previous operatives'

1285
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:24,520
identities and that also they have no
domestic jurisdiction.

1286
01:32:25,140 --> 01:32:29,160
So the question that we're asking is, we
have interviewed various people who

1287
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:30,160
knew these men well.

1288
01:32:30,620 --> 01:32:33,780
They say that they're the men in the
photograph, so we're asking the CIA and

1289
01:32:33,780 --> 01:32:37,780
Los Angeles Police Department to address
that question. Assuming there is much

1290
01:32:37,780 --> 01:32:41,340
more to it than the straight Sir Hans,
Sir Hans story, do you think we'll ever

1291
01:32:41,340 --> 01:32:42,340
get to the bottom of it?

1292
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:46,280
I think it's important that we do. I
mean, there's a guy called Paul Schrade

1293
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:49,100
was walking behind Kennedy on the night
he was shot in the head, and he's been

1294
01:32:49,100 --> 01:32:52,160
one of the leading campaigners to reopen
the case for years because of the

1295
01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:54,700
second gun theory and various doubts
that there have been around.

1296
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:58,060
So I think this evidence is quite
important because it's the first time

1297
01:32:58,060 --> 01:32:59,540
we've actually showed a CIA presence.

1298
01:32:59,920 --> 01:33:02,100
on the night at the domestic
assassination.

1299
01:33:02,540 --> 01:33:05,700
And it's important that we get some
answers to this from the relevant

1300
01:33:05,700 --> 01:33:10,280
authorities. You know, every day there's
new revelations, Mr. Sullivan. And this

1301
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:14,920
is the most revealing so far, or one of
the most revealing.

1302
01:33:15,480 --> 01:33:19,220
My understanding is that the senator
didn't want any protection.

1303
01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:25,380
And if they went there to protect him,
what were they doing there?

1304
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:28,380
How could Sirhan determine the last
minute?

1305
01:33:29,100 --> 01:33:33,160
change of plans on the direction of
Kennedy's travel throughout that whole

1306
01:33:33,420 --> 01:33:37,100
Because there's no way Sirhan could have
found out the change of plan and

1307
01:33:37,100 --> 01:33:40,020
direction and be there lying in wait
without some sort of direction.

1308
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:44,520
And this explains it. It may explain why
Sirhan doesn't remember.

1309
01:33:45,060 --> 01:33:50,600
It's horrendous to think that the
government would be involved in

1310
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:55,640
this. But if it is, let's get down to
the bottom of it and find out the truth.

1311
01:33:56,380 --> 01:34:00,920
After the BBC story, I sent the video of
Morales to others who knew him at CIA.

1312
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:03,320
None of them could recognize him.

1313
01:34:03,700 --> 01:34:08,100
Manuel Chavez said he was too tall and
light -skinned. He remembered Morales as

1314
01:34:08,100 --> 01:34:10,380
5 '10 with very dark Indian features.

1315
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:15,080
Then with the help of journalist David
Talbot, I discovered new photographs of

1316
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:19,200
Morales taken in Peru and Vietnam in the
years before and after the

1317
01:34:19,200 --> 01:34:20,200
assassination.

1318
01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:25,160
While Bradley Ayers feels these confirm
his identification, now I'm not so sure.

1319
01:34:25,820 --> 01:34:29,060
Morales said he was there, but I'm not
sure this is the same person.

1320
01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:32,600
But the strangest twist came with Gordon
Campbell.

1321
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:38,360
I was told he died of a massive heart
attack at JM Wave in 1962, a year before

1322
01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:39,840
Bradley Ayres even met him.

1323
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:44,300
But this Campbell was 57 years old, much
older than the man Ayres knew.

1324
01:34:44,660 --> 01:34:48,000
Were there two Gordon Campbells, or was
it simply a cover identity?

1325
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:52,720
Then, with the help of an American
journalist, I found more clips of

1326
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:56,320
and could chart his movements throughout
the evening with the help of his blue

1327
01:34:56,320 --> 01:34:58,440
sports coat and distinctive hairline.

1328
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:03,560
We see him with the group in the
ballroom early on, then watching the

1329
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:04,760
next to Roger Mudd.

1330
01:35:06,240 --> 01:35:10,080
Then a man calls out Mike and Campbell
joins the group in the middle of the

1331
01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:14,340
ballroom in a light -hearted mood and
gesturing at the bank of TV cameras

1332
01:35:14,340 --> 01:35:15,340
him.

1333
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:23,400
Just before the speech, Campbell walked
through the room with a colleague and

1334
01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:27,100
then walked forward towards the stage as
the crowd get word of the shooting.

1335
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:32,980
It was now clear he didn't emerge from
the pantry but was watching the speech

1336
01:35:32,980 --> 01:35:34,880
from the back of the ballroom with this
group.

1337
01:35:35,380 --> 01:35:38,900
Two new clips also showed his immediate
reaction to the shooting.

1338
01:36:02,670 --> 01:36:05,550
Later on, we see him listening to
interviews with witnesses.

1339
01:36:07,010 --> 01:36:11,830
The Latin man with Campbell also turned
up cheering for Kennedy earlier in the

1340
01:36:11,830 --> 01:36:18,630
night, listening to interviews later on,
and chatting with eyewitness George

1341
01:36:18,630 --> 01:36:19,630
Green.

1342
01:36:20,830 --> 01:36:24,490
But who were the group with Campbell in
the ballroom 30 minutes before the

1343
01:36:24,490 --> 01:36:28,510
shooting? I found two photographs in the
police investigation files suggesting

1344
01:36:28,510 --> 01:36:29,990
they had checked out these people.

1345
01:36:30,570 --> 01:36:32,690
Campbell is circled along with some
other men.

1346
01:36:32,930 --> 01:36:35,730
On the back of the photograph is the
name Michael Roman.

1347
01:36:36,030 --> 01:36:40,270
The group were salesmen for the Bulova
Watch Company at the hotel for a sales

1348
01:36:40,270 --> 01:36:44,910
meeting. Michael D. Roman was the
national sales manager and vice

1349
01:36:44,910 --> 01:36:48,870
Bulova. Before his appointment, he
served as police commissioner of

1350
01:36:48,970 --> 01:36:51,750
Illinois, where he also raised ponies
and collies.

1351
01:36:52,070 --> 01:36:56,590
Was this a case of mistaken identity, or
was Michael D. Roman Gordon Campbell's

1352
01:36:56,590 --> 01:36:57,590
real identity?

1353
01:36:58,540 --> 01:37:02,680
Mechutron time is kept by a tuning fork
instead of a balance wheel. It splits a

1354
01:37:02,680 --> 01:37:06,180
second into 360 parts and is used as a
timer in satellites.

1355
01:37:06,540 --> 01:37:09,260
The most precise time you can keep on
your wrist.

1356
01:37:09,860 --> 01:37:11,560
Bulova was no ordinary company.

1357
01:37:11,820 --> 01:37:16,120
Chairman of the board was Omar N.
Bradley, a five -star general and hero

1358
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:18,460
World War II, now living in Beverly
Hills.

1359
01:37:19,020 --> 01:37:23,080
Forty percent of Bulova's revenue came
from the defense industry, and sources

1360
01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:25,460
told me it was the well -known CIA
cover.

1361
01:37:25,950 --> 01:37:29,270
Roman had been appointed vice president
by Bradley in 1964.

1362
01:37:29,790 --> 01:37:34,910
In the spring of 1968, Bradley was one
of the wise men advising Johnson on his

1363
01:37:34,910 --> 01:37:35,910
strategy in Vietnam.

1364
01:37:36,450 --> 01:37:40,530
The FBI finally interviewed Michael D.
Roman five months after the

1365
01:37:40,530 --> 01:37:43,550
assassination, and he reported nothing
out of the ordinary.

1366
01:37:43,790 --> 01:37:48,750
In 1976, he became the head of the
Retail Jewelers of America and was a

1367
01:37:48,750 --> 01:37:51,370
-respected figure in the industry for
the next 20 years.

1368
01:37:51,590 --> 01:37:52,810
He died in 2002.

1369
01:37:54,110 --> 01:37:58,430
Roman's family deny he led a double life
with the CIA and identified the man

1370
01:37:58,430 --> 01:38:03,250
next to him as Frank Owens, a regional
sales manager for Bulova who died a few

1371
01:38:03,250 --> 01:38:04,049
years ago.

1372
01:38:04,050 --> 01:38:06,850
Did Roman and Owens double as Campbell
and Ioannidis?

1373
01:38:07,070 --> 01:38:10,430
It seems unlikely, but at this point I
just don't know.

1374
01:38:11,250 --> 01:38:15,830
Whether the CIA were involved or not,
one thing has stayed constant over the

1375
01:38:15,830 --> 01:38:20,050
years. One thing that has not changed is
the fact that he does not remember.

1376
01:38:21,360 --> 01:38:25,380
Sirhan is still in prison and has been
turned down for parole 13 times.

1377
01:38:25,820 --> 01:38:29,120
He's been turned down every time and
always on the same ground. He lacks

1378
01:38:29,120 --> 01:38:34,900
remorse. But it's circular because how
can you lack remorse if the basis for

1379
01:38:34,900 --> 01:38:39,000
that finding of lack of remorse is that
you don't remember and if in fact you're

1380
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:41,180
telling the truth when you say you don't
remember. Of course he's telling the

1381
01:38:41,180 --> 01:38:45,860
truth. That's why he's requested
hypnosis in order for him to be able to

1382
01:38:46,780 --> 01:38:53,550
With a proper, well -designed,
regression technique, it's possible to

1383
01:38:53,550 --> 01:38:54,570
uncover that memory.

1384
01:38:54,870 --> 01:39:00,190
He could possibly reveal how he was
programmed and where he was going and

1385
01:39:00,190 --> 01:39:04,410
he was going to do about it. But the
court would not give me permission to do

1386
01:39:04,410 --> 01:39:05,410
it.

1387
01:39:06,030 --> 01:39:11,030
The Ambassador Hotel closed in 1989 and
the pantry gradually deteriorated.

1388
01:39:11,430 --> 01:39:15,450
Now the hotel itself has gone to make
way for a new high school in memory of

1389
01:39:15,450 --> 01:39:16,289
Bobby Kennedy.

1390
01:39:16,290 --> 01:39:19,870
But nearly 40 years on, the mystery
around this case still remains.

1391
01:39:20,440 --> 01:39:25,640
Were senior CIA agents at the hotel that
night? Did they program Sirhan to shoot

1392
01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:28,860
Robert Kennedy or to act as a decoy for
the real assassin?

1393
01:39:29,400 --> 01:39:33,460
I still can't say for sure what happened
that night, but the evidence that

1394
01:39:33,460 --> 01:39:35,060
others were involved is mounting.

1395
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:39,820
See, this is not an Agatha Christie
mystery story where everything is neatly

1396
01:39:39,820 --> 01:39:43,980
tied up in a bow in Chapter 23 at the
end of the book.

1397
01:39:44,340 --> 01:39:48,900
It's one of our most enduring murder
mysteries, and it will probably continue

1398
01:39:48,900 --> 01:39:49,900
be such.

1399
01:39:50,460 --> 01:39:55,420
That's the way life is. Nothing is ever
quite resolved, is it? And what can be

1400
01:39:55,420 --> 01:39:56,420
done with the case now?

1401
01:39:57,200 --> 01:39:58,200
Define the truth.

1402
01:39:58,900 --> 01:40:03,900
Define the truth. As I've grown up with
this case, there are just things that

1403
01:40:03,900 --> 01:40:07,820
boggle the mind that should be looked
into for the love of humanity.

1404
01:40:08,400 --> 01:40:13,500
If all of this leads to where we suspect
it's going to lead, we don't want it to

1405
01:40:13,500 --> 01:40:14,500
ever happen again.

1406
01:40:16,980 --> 01:40:18,220
The first wish then.

1407
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:20,740
I wish that Senator Kennedy was still
alive.

1408
01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:26,200
I wish that every day that I've been
here.

1409
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:36,500
Second one, that there should be peace
in the Middle East.

1410
01:40:39,220 --> 01:40:42,420
There are some who talk about my youth.

1411
01:40:43,340 --> 01:40:45,900
It is true I am younger than many who
have run for president.

1412
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:49,560
and older than many of those who founded
this country.

1413
01:40:50,620 --> 01:40:55,020
Whatever my years, however, I will
gladly match my experience with that of

1414
01:40:55,020 --> 01:40:56,660
others who have aspired to the
presidency.

1415
01:40:57,560 --> 01:41:01,280
And after all, we are still a young
country.