1 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,467 [Det. Sandra Brown] For more than 20 years 2 00:00:40,467 --> 00:00:43,100 there are people that Vladimir Pokhilko 3 00:00:43,166 --> 00:00:45,000 killed his family, then killed himself. 4 00:00:46,166 --> 00:00:48,767 {\an8}But I have never been comfortable with calling this 5 00:00:48,767 --> 00:00:50,300 {\an8}a, a murder-suicide. 6 00:00:51,467 --> 00:00:53,066 Everything I've learned since 7 00:00:53,066 --> 00:00:55,100 tells me there's so much more to this case. 8 00:00:56,767 --> 00:00:58,700 And so I needed to come back to the Bay Area 9 00:00:58,767 --> 00:01:00,000 because this is where it happened. 10 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:00,300 because this is where it happened. 11 00:01:02,166 --> 00:01:03,500 I wanted to see the house 12 00:01:03,567 --> 00:01:05,567 to remember if that's how I saw it. 13 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:11,400 Did I see what I thought I saw back then? 14 00:01:13,066 --> 00:01:14,266 It's like a puzzle... 15 00:01:16,867 --> 00:01:18,467 ...and the puzzle pieces are not fitting. 16 00:01:22,066 --> 00:01:23,100 -Tetris. -Tetris. 17 00:01:23,166 --> 00:01:24,166 -Tetris. -Tetris. 18 00:01:24,166 --> 00:01:25,100 Very addictive. 19 00:01:25,166 --> 00:01:26,166 Over the years, 20 00:01:26,166 --> 00:01:27,300 after the murders, 21 00:01:27,367 --> 00:01:29,166 Tetris became more than the video game. 22 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:33,367 I think the biggest peak 23 00:01:33,367 --> 00:01:36,700 {\an8}was clearly that Game Boy Tetris cartridge combination 24 00:01:36,767 --> 00:01:38,000 {\an8}back in the late '80s. 25 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,500 The second big peak 26 00:01:43,567 --> 00:01:46,367 happened when everyone started to get smartphones. 27 00:01:46,367 --> 00:01:49,300 What game works better on a phone than Tetris? 28 00:01:49,367 --> 00:01:52,166 [Brown] When we got Tetris on the cellphones, it was so fun. 29 00:01:52,166 --> 00:01:54,600 You're having a cup of coffee at the coffee shop 30 00:01:54,667 --> 00:01:56,400 waiting for someone and you're playing Tetris. 31 00:01:57,300 --> 00:02:00,000 More than 500 million copies of Tetris 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:00,100 More than 500 million copies of Tetris 33 00:02:00,100 --> 00:02:01,000 have been downloaded on mobile devices, 34 00:02:02,266 --> 00:02:04,100 and that has made Tetris, you know, 35 00:02:04,166 --> 00:02:06,400 inescapable in the smartphone era 36 00:02:06,467 --> 00:02:08,467 when a lot of other game franchises from, like, 37 00:02:08,467 --> 00:02:11,867 the early days were not able to make that transition. 38 00:02:11,867 --> 00:02:14,900 [female reporter] Tetris clearly gives players that dopamine rush 39 00:02:14,967 --> 00:02:16,767 which keeps them coming back for more. 40 00:02:16,767 --> 00:02:20,000 {\an8}Were the most addictive video game of all time? 41 00:02:20,066 --> 00:02:21,567 {\an8}[Ben Mullen] Pick, as an example, 42 00:02:21,567 --> 00:02:23,700 some song by Justin Bieber, 43 00:02:23,767 --> 00:02:25,767 {\an8}it's really popular for a year, right? 44 00:02:25,767 --> 00:02:28,767 {\an8}And then you compare it to songs by Beethoven, 45 00:02:28,767 --> 00:02:30,000 songs by Beethoven is popular just forever. 46 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,000 songs by Beethoven is popular just forever. 47 00:02:31,066 --> 00:02:33,567 And that's how Tetris is, it's popularity is eternal. 48 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:35,667 {\an8}To this day, 49 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:38,266 {\an8}one of the most popular video games that there is. 50 00:02:38,266 --> 00:02:42,066 To give you an idea of how popular this became, 51 00:02:42,066 --> 00:02:43,500 the original version of Tetris 52 00:02:43,567 --> 00:02:45,367 is part of the permanent collection 53 00:02:45,367 --> 00:02:47,166 at the Museum of Modern Art. 54 00:02:52,467 --> 00:02:53,600 [Dan Ackerman] And over the years, 55 00:02:53,667 --> 00:02:55,700 the inventor Alexey Pajitnov 56 00:02:55,767 --> 00:02:58,066 has really come to understand that his brand 57 00:02:58,066 --> 00:03:00,000 is tied into the Tetris brand, 58 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:00,567 is tied into the Tetris brand, 59 00:03:00,567 --> 00:03:01,000 and Alexey basically acts 60 00:03:02,166 --> 00:03:04,767 as a spokesperson for Tetris. 61 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,166 But after the murders, 62 00:03:08,166 --> 00:03:10,767 people involved in the game 63 00:03:10,767 --> 00:03:12,166 are very reluctant to talk about 64 00:03:12,166 --> 00:03:15,066 his friend and business partner, Vladimir. 65 00:03:16,300 --> 00:03:19,667 He was definitely white washed out of that history of Tetris 66 00:03:19,667 --> 00:03:20,967 and the culture behind it. 67 00:03:25,967 --> 00:03:27,166 [Brown] This is the house, right there. 68 00:03:29,367 --> 00:03:30,000 This is where the crime occurred 69 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:30,667 This is where the crime occurred 70 00:03:31,166 --> 00:03:32,500 in 1998. 71 00:03:34,867 --> 00:03:36,367 I haven't been here in several years. 72 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:41,467 I, I feel it, I can sense it, 73 00:03:41,467 --> 00:03:42,567 I can smell it. 74 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:46,767 There was a child in there. 75 00:03:46,767 --> 00:03:49,166 That's, that's what brings it to me right now. 76 00:03:49,166 --> 00:03:50,767 That's what makes me feel [shudders] 77 00:03:50,767 --> 00:03:52,367 like my skin is crawling a little bit. 78 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:56,867 So I'm thinking 79 00:03:56,867 --> 00:03:58,767 right now, since it's been a while, 80 00:03:58,767 --> 00:04:00,000 I'm thinking, "I wanna go 81 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:00,200 I'm thinking, "I wanna go 82 00:04:00,266 --> 00:04:01,000 knock on the door and see if anyone's home 83 00:04:02,867 --> 00:04:04,400 and ask them if they'll talk to me." 84 00:04:18,100 --> 00:04:20,767 This house is not the house that we were originally in 85 00:04:20,767 --> 00:04:24,000 for crime back in 1998, but it's very close to it. 86 00:04:24,066 --> 00:04:26,467 So what I'm gonna show you is my impression 87 00:04:26,467 --> 00:04:28,367 of what was going on in this house 88 00:04:28,367 --> 00:04:29,700 when we walked through, so. 89 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,500 There as a long central hallway, 90 00:04:35,567 --> 00:04:37,667 there were some rooms off of it. 91 00:04:37,667 --> 00:04:40,867 The first room we came to is where we found Elena. 92 00:04:43,667 --> 00:04:45,300 The victim was on the bed, 93 00:04:45,367 --> 00:04:48,367 lying on her side, sort of facing the wall, 94 00:04:48,367 --> 00:04:50,166 you could see some damage, 95 00:04:50,166 --> 00:04:53,166 some blunt force damage to her head, towards the back, 96 00:04:53,166 --> 00:04:55,200 and then you could see some stab marks, 97 00:04:55,867 --> 00:04:57,400 uh, in, on her back. 98 00:05:01,100 --> 00:05:02,867 And there was a hammer on the floor. 99 00:05:04,100 --> 00:05:05,667 So when we came out of this room, 100 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:07,367 we went down the hall... 101 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:10,133 ...to the bathroom. 102 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,100 And we found evidence of, uh, clean-up. 103 00:05:16,967 --> 00:05:18,667 And we later discovered that 104 00:05:18,667 --> 00:05:19,967 the weapons had all been wiped down. 105 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:24,767 Now this bedroom here, 106 00:05:24,767 --> 00:05:26,900 this was Vladimir's office, 107 00:05:26,967 --> 00:05:29,100 there was a desk, and on the desk 108 00:05:29,166 --> 00:05:30,000 we found what we would consider a suicide note. 109 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,000 we found what we would consider a suicide note. 110 00:05:33,266 --> 00:05:36,667 Note he had written or somebody told him to write. 111 00:05:38,266 --> 00:05:40,000 "I am being eaten alive." 112 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:45,266 And in this room, Vladimir was laying on the ground. 113 00:05:46,967 --> 00:05:50,400 And on that bed was the victim, uh, Peter. 114 00:05:52,567 --> 00:05:55,100 You could see blunt force trauma on his head, 115 00:05:55,166 --> 00:05:58,266 uh, his body was partially covered in the corner, 116 00:05:58,266 --> 00:05:59,767 and there was hammer on the floor. 117 00:06:03,867 --> 00:06:06,166 Vladimir was prone on the floor. 118 00:06:06,166 --> 00:06:07,867 His feet were facing the door 119 00:06:07,867 --> 00:06:10,567 and his head was facing that way. 120 00:06:10,567 --> 00:06:12,900 Let me get down and give you an idea of what that look like. 121 00:06:14,166 --> 00:06:16,500 The knife was still in his hand, 122 00:06:16,567 --> 00:06:18,166 he was lying like this, 123 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,166 and this is how we saw him. 124 00:06:21,567 --> 00:06:22,367 I was 125 00:06:23,166 --> 00:06:25,166 really hesitant in 126 00:06:25,166 --> 00:06:28,000 believing that this was just a man who cut his throat, 127 00:06:28,567 --> 00:06:29,400 I'll tell you why. 128 00:06:30,166 --> 00:06:31,000 There was blood spatter 129 00:06:32,166 --> 00:06:33,867 on this window. 130 00:06:33,867 --> 00:06:35,667 From about two, maybe two, 131 00:06:36,266 --> 00:06:37,367 two and a half feet down. 132 00:06:40,567 --> 00:06:43,800 If Vladimir had cut his throat standing here, 133 00:06:43,867 --> 00:06:46,567 he would've taken the knife, perhaps this way, 134 00:06:46,567 --> 00:06:48,000 the coroner said he did it this way. 135 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,367 We might have had some cast off 136 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,000 on the glass right here. 137 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,200 If he had cut his throat and he was down on his knees, 138 00:06:57,266 --> 00:06:58,800 we'd had some cast off here. 139 00:06:59,367 --> 00:07:00,000 Here and here. 140 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:00,400 Here and here. 141 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:02,767 How does one get blood 142 00:07:02,767 --> 00:07:05,767 from the knees or standing tall down here? 143 00:07:05,767 --> 00:07:07,767 And it was at a 90 degree angle, 144 00:07:07,767 --> 00:07:09,567 meaning, the blood came straight back. 145 00:07:09,567 --> 00:07:11,266 It didn't come down from the top, 146 00:07:11,266 --> 00:07:13,266 and it didn't come from the bottom, 147 00:07:13,266 --> 00:07:14,900 which would leave us with a different blood pattern. 148 00:07:16,767 --> 00:07:20,100 If Vladimir had not taken his own life, 149 00:07:21,100 --> 00:07:23,767 and if someone had him down on the floor, 150 00:07:23,767 --> 00:07:25,767 and they were holding him down, 151 00:07:25,767 --> 00:07:27,600 and they lifted his head back, 152 00:07:27,667 --> 00:07:28,867 and they cut his throat 153 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:30,000 really quickly, 154 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:30,700 really quickly, 155 00:07:30,767 --> 00:07:31,000 it's possible that the blood would land where I saw it. 156 00:07:40,567 --> 00:07:42,867 So let's be honest, 157 00:07:42,867 --> 00:07:45,000 maybe I'm not remembering things clearly, 158 00:07:45,066 --> 00:07:47,667 maybe I need to go down to the PD, the police department, 159 00:07:47,667 --> 00:07:51,266 and look at those evidential photos on the case. 160 00:07:51,266 --> 00:07:52,900 I wanna make sure 161 00:07:52,967 --> 00:07:56,066 that what I saw 24 years ago is what I'm remembering today. 162 00:08:01,700 --> 00:08:03,033 I haven't made an appointment, 163 00:08:03,033 --> 00:08:06,266 so I'm gonna try to go in and talk with the evidence person, 164 00:08:06,266 --> 00:08:09,000 and see if she can pull some photos. 165 00:08:27,867 --> 00:08:30,000 You are not gonna believe this. 166 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:30,300 You are not gonna believe this. 167 00:08:31,967 --> 00:08:34,166 So when I went upstairs, I met with the evidence clerk, 168 00:08:34,166 --> 00:08:37,000 who, who is in charge of all evidence release. 169 00:08:37,066 --> 00:08:38,467 I actually hired her. 170 00:08:38,467 --> 00:08:41,767 She said to me, "Sandra, I have some bad news for you. 171 00:08:41,767 --> 00:08:44,266 The evidence was disposed off, destroyed." 172 00:08:44,266 --> 00:08:45,400 It's gone. 173 00:08:48,667 --> 00:08:52,100 The date on this paper work says, March 31st, 1999, 174 00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:54,367 and the box is marked for destroyed. 175 00:08:54,367 --> 00:08:57,900 The crime occurred in September of 1998, 176 00:08:57,967 --> 00:09:00,000 the 22nd to be clear, 177 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:00,166 the 22nd to be clear, 178 00:09:00,166 --> 00:09:01,000 and it was destroyed in March of 1999? 179 00:09:04,667 --> 00:09:08,200 September, October, November, December, January, February, March, 180 00:09:08,266 --> 00:09:11,367 that's six months after the crime, that's unheard of. 181 00:09:11,367 --> 00:09:12,700 This is unbelievable. 182 00:09:12,767 --> 00:09:15,900 Even though this was a murder-suicide, 183 00:09:15,967 --> 00:09:20,100 the supposedly or allegedly known suspect is, is dead, 184 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:21,700 it's still two homicides. 185 00:09:23,767 --> 00:09:27,200 We never throw away homicide evidence, we keep it for years. 186 00:09:31,467 --> 00:09:33,367 It is shocking to me 187 00:09:33,367 --> 00:09:36,567 who approved the destruction of this evidence. 188 00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:41,166 The evidence clerk 189 00:09:41,166 --> 00:09:43,400 said, "I walked upstairs to investigations, 190 00:09:43,467 --> 00:09:47,500 and I spoke to the supervisor and the investigating officer, 191 00:09:47,567 --> 00:09:51,300 Scott Wong and Mike Denson, 192 00:09:51,367 --> 00:09:53,400 and they just said, 'Go ahead and destroy it.'" 193 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:59,467 I don't know why, and I find that to be quite strange. 194 00:09:59,467 --> 00:10:00,000 I don't really know what to do with this information. 195 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,000 I don't really know what to do with this information. 196 00:10:03,166 --> 00:10:04,900 I wanna talk to them, 197 00:10:04,967 --> 00:10:06,967 but this is gonna be a difficult discussion. 198 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,200 We can't go back and look for 199 00:10:11,266 --> 00:10:14,400 minute traces of fingerprints or we can't compare 200 00:10:14,467 --> 00:10:16,100 because all the evidence is gone. 201 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:20,367 But we still have the case file. 202 00:10:21,467 --> 00:10:23,367 Because this case rested so heavily 203 00:10:23,367 --> 00:10:26,567 on the autopsy report from the two medical examiners, 204 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:28,400 I wanted to reach out to them, 205 00:10:28,467 --> 00:10:30,000 I wanted them to explain their finding, 206 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:30,500 I wanted them to explain their finding, 207 00:10:30,567 --> 00:10:31,000 because a murder-suicide didn't make sense to me. 208 00:10:33,867 --> 00:10:35,667 We couldn't make contact with one, 209 00:10:35,667 --> 00:10:38,467 and the other one wouldn't agree to talk on camera. 210 00:10:38,467 --> 00:10:41,166 So we reached out to another 211 00:10:41,166 --> 00:10:43,700 medical examiner, who is very well known, 212 00:10:43,767 --> 00:10:46,300 Doctor Mike Arnall. 213 00:10:46,367 --> 00:10:50,266 {\an8}Doctor Arnall has done over 5000 autopsies in his career. 214 00:10:52,266 --> 00:10:56,100 {\an8}So, Doctor Arnall, I'm, I appreciate that you took the time to meet with me. 215 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:58,667 So I sent you the autopsy report, 216 00:10:58,667 --> 00:11:00,000 and I'm really curious, 217 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:00,667 and I'm really curious, 218 00:11:00,667 --> 00:11:01,000 very curious to get your opinion in it, 219 00:11:02,767 --> 00:11:04,567 because I have some suspicions. 220 00:11:04,567 --> 00:11:06,800 Let me just cut to the chase. 221 00:11:08,367 --> 00:11:10,800 What I saw in the autopsy reports 222 00:11:10,867 --> 00:11:12,800 are entirely consistent with triple homicide. 223 00:11:25,166 --> 00:11:28,367 {\an8}I may have made the determination of suicide 224 00:11:28,367 --> 00:11:31,066 {\an8}in a 1000 or more cases, 225 00:11:32,166 --> 00:11:35,000 and based on my 40 years of experience, 226 00:11:35,867 --> 00:11:36,900 this case stinks. 227 00:11:38,667 --> 00:11:40,000 Let's talk about that wound 228 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,166 on his neck, 229 00:11:41,166 --> 00:11:44,266 Vladimir got a injury to a jugular vein, 230 00:11:45,166 --> 00:11:46,634 does not cut the carotid artery, 231 00:11:46,634 --> 00:11:47,000 does not cut the carotid artery, 232 00:11:47,066 --> 00:11:49,467 that is important because the carotid artery 233 00:11:49,467 --> 00:11:50,967 is a high pressure vessel... 234 00:11:50,967 --> 00:11:52,000 Mmm-hmm. 235 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,300 ...jugular veins are low pressure vessels. 236 00:11:54,367 --> 00:11:56,867 A injury to a jugular vein 237 00:11:56,867 --> 00:11:58,600 is going to bleed slowly. 238 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:04,266 The person who has their jugular veins cut 239 00:12:04,266 --> 00:12:07,467 may live for a prolonged period of time. 240 00:12:07,467 --> 00:12:09,166 They'll die in a few minutes, 241 00:12:09,166 --> 00:12:10,567 but he certainly had the time 242 00:12:10,567 --> 00:12:14,100 to call and order a pizza and check his email. 243 00:12:17,166 --> 00:12:20,600 So it's possible that Vladimir could've released that knife, 244 00:12:20,667 --> 00:12:24,367 maybe grab his throat, if he were conscious. 245 00:12:24,367 --> 00:12:26,000 There's no reasonable explanation 246 00:12:26,066 --> 00:12:29,367 for why he would have continued to hold the knife in his hand 247 00:12:29,367 --> 00:12:32,367 while an eternity passed till he died. 248 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,367 So I hear the term in here, uh, what was the term? 249 00:12:37,367 --> 00:12:39,166 -Cadaveric spasm. -Cadaveric spasm. 250 00:12:44,567 --> 00:12:46,634 [Dr. Michael Arnall] Vladimir didn't die rapidly enough 251 00:12:46,634 --> 00:12:47,000 [Dr. Michael Arnall] Vladimir didn't die rapidly enough 252 00:12:47,266 --> 00:12:51,567 to satisfy the criteria for a cadaveric spasm event. 253 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,266 People with cadaveric spasm 254 00:12:56,266 --> 00:12:58,467 die quickly, so they stop breathing, 255 00:12:58,467 --> 00:13:01,200 the blood that carries the oxygen stops circulating the body, 256 00:13:01,767 --> 00:13:03,500 and they can't relax. 257 00:13:03,567 --> 00:13:07,100 I personally have never seen a case of cadaveric spasm. 258 00:13:07,166 --> 00:13:10,867 I don't know anyone who has seen a case of cadaveric spasm. 259 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,367 Vladimir didn't die in the fashion that 260 00:13:15,367 --> 00:13:16,634 cadaveric spasm is said to occur. 261 00:13:16,634 --> 00:13:17,000 cadaveric spasm is said to occur. 262 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,000 So for multiple reasons, 263 00:13:22,066 --> 00:13:24,166 I think the diagnosis was attractive 264 00:13:24,867 --> 00:13:26,467 to the pathologist, 265 00:13:26,467 --> 00:13:29,000 but I don't think the pathologist thought it through real well. 266 00:13:32,667 --> 00:13:35,467 -Next point is the hesitation marks... - [Brown] Mmm-hmm. 267 00:13:35,467 --> 00:13:36,500 [Dr. Arnall] ...on the neck. 268 00:13:37,467 --> 00:13:40,300 There are two smaller incise wounds 269 00:13:40,367 --> 00:13:42,266 on the neck in addition to the larger wound 270 00:13:42,266 --> 00:13:44,300 which got the jugular veins. 271 00:13:44,367 --> 00:13:46,467 Those hesitation marks 272 00:13:46,467 --> 00:13:46,634 are commonly seen 273 00:13:46,634 --> 00:13:47,000 are commonly seen 274 00:13:48,867 --> 00:13:51,667 in individuals who commit suicide. 275 00:13:53,166 --> 00:13:55,200 As to whether this has to be 276 00:13:55,266 --> 00:13:56,867 a suicide because of hesitation marks. 277 00:13:56,867 --> 00:13:58,100 Mmm-hmm. 278 00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:01,066 I will tell you that I'm going to be testifying in a case 279 00:14:01,066 --> 00:14:04,867 where there are numerous hesitation marks on the neck, 280 00:14:04,867 --> 00:14:08,266 and yet, it's clearly a homicide. 281 00:14:08,266 --> 00:14:11,667 Is it possible that whomever committed this murder 282 00:14:11,667 --> 00:14:13,400 used that knife twice 283 00:14:13,467 --> 00:14:15,367 as a warning to get information 284 00:14:15,367 --> 00:14:16,634 or, like, "We're gonna cut your throat 285 00:14:16,634 --> 00:14:16,700 or, like, "We're gonna cut your throat 286 00:14:16,767 --> 00:14:17,000 if you don't give us what we want."? 287 00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:23,867 Why don't we just cut to the formal term, torture. 288 00:14:23,867 --> 00:14:26,266 Can a torture mark look like a hesitation mark, 289 00:14:26,266 --> 00:14:29,000 pathologist may see that and think automatically that 290 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,300 this is, this is a hesitation mark, 291 00:14:31,367 --> 00:14:32,900 where I'm thinking it's a torture mark? 292 00:14:32,967 --> 00:14:34,567 The two would be indistinguishable. 293 00:14:34,567 --> 00:14:35,400 Okay. 294 00:14:40,266 --> 00:14:41,900 If you look at the autopsies 295 00:14:41,967 --> 00:14:44,467 -on your alleged assailant, Vladimir. -Mmm-hmm. 296 00:14:44,467 --> 00:14:46,266 One of the autopsies mentions 297 00:14:46,266 --> 00:14:46,634 an aberration on the head, which is U-shaped, 298 00:14:46,634 --> 00:14:47,000 an aberration on the head, which is U-shaped, 299 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,867 which has a width below one inch. 300 00:14:51,867 --> 00:14:54,166 I cannot exclude the possibility 301 00:14:54,166 --> 00:14:56,867 that he was struck with a hammer. 302 00:14:56,867 --> 00:14:58,800 And since two of the other individuals 303 00:14:58,867 --> 00:15:01,266 at the scene were indeed struck by the hammer... 304 00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:05,066 ...you're gonna have to consider significant possibility, 305 00:15:05,066 --> 00:15:06,567 he was also struck by a hammer 306 00:15:06,567 --> 00:15:09,467 with the glancing blow that didn't cause a depressed skull fracture, 307 00:15:09,467 --> 00:15:11,100 but may well have rendered him unconscious. 308 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:15,367 The fact that this individual dies slowly, 309 00:15:15,367 --> 00:15:16,634 and he hasn't made no attempts to make additional injuries 310 00:15:16,634 --> 00:15:17,000 and he hasn't made no attempts to make additional injuries 311 00:15:18,567 --> 00:15:22,667 or made an attempt to resolve the one that had 312 00:15:22,667 --> 00:15:24,800 suggests the was either being held down or unconscious. 313 00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:30,166 I don't know how you exclude the possibility 314 00:15:31,266 --> 00:15:33,000 that Vladimir was struck on the head, 315 00:15:33,767 --> 00:15:35,467 went down to the floor, 316 00:15:35,467 --> 00:15:37,667 had his throat incised by a knife, 317 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:39,900 and he died. 318 00:15:39,967 --> 00:15:42,166 And then someone could easily have placed a knife 319 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,000 in his hand. 320 00:15:47,266 --> 00:15:49,200 I'll honest with you, 321 00:15:49,266 --> 00:15:51,567 um, my heart's beating really fast right now. 322 00:15:51,567 --> 00:15:53,467 Do you think that this man 323 00:15:53,467 --> 00:15:56,700 murdered his wife and child, and then killed himself? 324 00:15:56,767 --> 00:16:00,400 I think there are an awful lot of problems with that assertion. 325 00:16:01,567 --> 00:16:05,000 Problems which I can't figure out and answer. 326 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,667 My, my point is this, 327 00:16:06,667 --> 00:16:08,567 if you have a case with so many loose ends, 328 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:12,266 and you don't understand why the ends are loose, 329 00:16:13,166 --> 00:16:15,166 and then the feds show up, 330 00:16:15,166 --> 00:16:16,634 at that point it's, "Oh, time out." 331 00:16:16,634 --> 00:16:16,667 at that point it's, "Oh, time out." 332 00:16:20,367 --> 00:16:22,000 The elephant in the living room 333 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,467 is the presence of federal authorities. 334 00:16:24,467 --> 00:16:26,000 What the hell are they doing there? 335 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,667 Until I know what it's doing here, 336 00:16:27,667 --> 00:16:29,900 this case is going nowhere, I'm not gonna sign the death certificate. 337 00:16:30,867 --> 00:16:32,667 Are you kidding? 338 00:16:32,667 --> 00:16:35,867 The only cases in which I have interacted with the FBI 339 00:16:35,867 --> 00:16:40,967 were in cases where the FBI clearly had jurisdiction 340 00:16:40,967 --> 00:16:44,266 because of the property upon which 341 00:16:44,867 --> 00:16:46,367 the event occurred. 342 00:16:47,367 --> 00:16:49,000 It could be federal property, 343 00:16:49,066 --> 00:16:53,567 it could be property belonging to a Native American tribe. 344 00:16:53,567 --> 00:16:55,166 To the best of my knowledge, I've, 345 00:16:55,767 --> 00:16:57,900 I have never heard 346 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,900 of the FBI being involved in 347 00:17:01,567 --> 00:17:03,200 any suicides. 348 00:17:04,467 --> 00:17:05,867 [Brown] I'm excited about what you're saying 349 00:17:05,867 --> 00:17:07,900 because you're not a detective, 350 00:17:07,967 --> 00:17:09,867 so you get to see things after the fact, 351 00:17:09,867 --> 00:17:13,000 so what you just said has blown this way out of the water for me. 352 00:17:14,467 --> 00:17:16,367 [Dr. Arnall] You understand this doesn't make any sense, right? 353 00:17:16,367 --> 00:17:16,634 [Brown] Of course this doesn't make any sense, that's why you're here, 354 00:17:16,634 --> 00:17:17,000 [Brown] Of course this doesn't make any sense, that's why you're here, 355 00:17:19,266 --> 00:17:20,467 that's why we sought you out. 356 00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:24,367 [Dr. Arnall] Everything's wrong with it, 357 00:17:24,367 --> 00:17:25,900 nothing's right with it. 358 00:17:30,467 --> 00:17:33,467 [Brown] So I just finished talking with Doctor Mike Arnall, 359 00:17:33,467 --> 00:17:35,767 and I'm so excited that somebody 360 00:17:35,767 --> 00:17:38,166 who understands the science of death 361 00:17:38,166 --> 00:17:41,367 {\an8}actually understands what I felt, 362 00:17:41,367 --> 00:17:43,900 {\an8}and how I said, "This guy couldn't have killed himself." 363 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:46,634 But there are no fingerprints other than the family members, 364 00:17:46,634 --> 00:17:47,000 But there are no fingerprints other than the family members, 365 00:17:50,567 --> 00:17:54,367 which means that whomever did this had experience. 366 00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:01,300 {\an8}Two former gas executives and members of their families 367 00:18:01,367 --> 00:18:04,367 {\an8}died in two separate countries within 24 hours. 368 00:18:06,567 --> 00:18:09,266 [Joe Serio] Right now we're in the middle of the Ukraine war, 369 00:18:09,266 --> 00:18:11,100 and the last year, 370 00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:13,400 {\an8}at least seven Russian oligarchs 371 00:18:13,467 --> 00:18:16,367 {\an8}who would not go along with Putin's plan have been murdered. 372 00:18:21,166 --> 00:18:24,100 Inside Russia, outside Russia, 373 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:28,100 and in a style that is extremely similar 374 00:18:28,166 --> 00:18:31,000 to this murder in Silicon Valley. 375 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,500 [male reporter] Police found his wife and daughter dead with axe and knife wounds. 376 00:18:35,567 --> 00:18:37,867 Several have been killed... 377 00:18:40,467 --> 00:18:42,667 {\an8}...and their families killed as well, 378 00:18:42,667 --> 00:18:44,700 {\an8}the young children, the spouses. 379 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:46,634 What does that tell you? 380 00:18:46,634 --> 00:18:46,867 What does that tell you? 381 00:18:46,867 --> 00:18:47,000 Tells you that somebody, some pool of people 382 00:18:49,567 --> 00:18:51,300 have knowledge and skill 383 00:18:51,367 --> 00:18:52,800 about how to kill people, 384 00:18:52,867 --> 00:18:54,767 to pass it off as a suicide. 385 00:18:54,767 --> 00:18:57,667 [male reporter] Moscow police are investigating the deaths 386 00:18:57,667 --> 00:19:01,767 of Avayev and his family as a murder-suicide. 387 00:19:01,767 --> 00:19:04,000 [Serio] The fact that at least a couple of these 388 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,266 murder-suicides of the oligarchs 389 00:19:06,266 --> 00:19:08,500 look almost exactly like Vladimir's. 390 00:19:09,367 --> 00:19:11,066 I don't like coincidences like that. 391 00:19:26,467 --> 00:19:29,467 {\an8}I think that this whole case 392 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:32,867 {\an8}just reeks of Russian mafia. 393 00:19:43,567 --> 00:19:45,404 Twenty-four years ago, I wasn't the only person who has some questions. 394 00:19:45,404 --> 00:19:46,000 Twenty-four years ago, I wasn't the only person who has some questions. 395 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,500 And some of the information that I've found since 396 00:19:53,066 --> 00:19:54,200 is shocking. 397 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:07,066 So I'm gonna call everybody that I worked with 398 00:20:07,066 --> 00:20:08,667 and get them all back together, 399 00:20:08,667 --> 00:20:10,300 because there's some information 400 00:20:10,367 --> 00:20:11,867 in this case that they don't know, 401 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,667 interviews that they're not privy to. 402 00:20:16,567 --> 00:20:18,567 I want to see they're reactions 403 00:20:18,567 --> 00:20:21,166 and if they're in line with how I feel. 404 00:20:21,166 --> 00:20:22,367 Something bigger happened. 405 00:20:26,667 --> 00:20:29,066 And I have to ask Mike and Scott 406 00:20:29,066 --> 00:20:31,100 why was the evidence destroyed. 407 00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:36,400 That seems weird to me. 408 00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:40,600 I need to know the answer. I need to know. 409 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,166 So, you guys know why we're here, 410 00:20:44,166 --> 00:20:45,404 and this is a case that 411 00:20:45,404 --> 00:20:45,500 and this is a case that 412 00:20:45,567 --> 00:20:46,000 I think we've talked about over the years. 413 00:20:52,667 --> 00:20:54,467 But I have a question. 414 00:20:54,467 --> 00:20:56,667 When the producers called each of you, 415 00:20:56,667 --> 00:21:00,200 and you guys all came in, why did you come on board? 416 00:21:00,266 --> 00:21:02,867 [Curtis Chan] 'Cause I didn't agree with the findings by the coroner. 417 00:21:06,166 --> 00:21:08,967 We saw the spinal chord in the neck. 418 00:21:08,967 --> 00:21:10,800 How could, how can an individual... 419 00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:15,100 {\an8}...apply that severe of a wound to themselves? 420 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,900 {\an8}Back then I was the, the rookie of us all. 421 00:21:20,967 --> 00:21:23,967 {\an8}Um, but at the time, 422 00:21:23,967 --> 00:21:26,767 there was evidential questions that I had, 423 00:21:26,767 --> 00:21:28,166 the two different hammers. 424 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,767 What's the point of that? 425 00:21:32,767 --> 00:21:35,100 And then was there a cleanup before the suicide? 426 00:21:35,166 --> 00:21:38,567 The paperwork that was burned out in the barbecue. 427 00:21:38,567 --> 00:21:39,467 if you're gonna commit suicide, 428 00:21:39,467 --> 00:21:40,867 who cares what you leave behind? 429 00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:45,266 So, you're the investigating officer, 430 00:21:45,266 --> 00:21:45,404 what do you remember how you felt when you first went in there? 431 00:21:45,404 --> 00:21:46,000 what do you remember how you felt when you first went in there? 432 00:21:48,266 --> 00:21:51,266 They used two different hammers, they, uh... 433 00:21:51,266 --> 00:21:52,567 I felt like it was overkill. 434 00:21:52,567 --> 00:21:54,166 Did we ever for any second 435 00:21:54,166 --> 00:21:56,000 think that this was a home invasion, 436 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,000 did we ever think anything like that initially? 437 00:22:00,066 --> 00:22:02,266 [Mike Denson] Initially, of course, the first thought is, 438 00:22:02,266 --> 00:22:04,867 "You've got a dead son, a dead wife, 439 00:22:04,867 --> 00:22:06,300 and a dead husband," 440 00:22:06,367 --> 00:22:09,600 it looked like somebody came in and killed all of 'em. 441 00:22:09,667 --> 00:22:13,367 We always think about was there a possible home invasion 442 00:22:13,367 --> 00:22:15,266 and we look for signs of that. 443 00:22:16,266 --> 00:22:18,500 But we didn't find that. 444 00:22:18,567 --> 00:22:20,300 [Scott Wong] I think it was good that we had these conversations 445 00:22:20,367 --> 00:22:23,500 or, or, you know, concerns or disagreements, you know? 446 00:22:23,567 --> 00:22:25,166 {\an8}But, uh, what it was... 447 00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:27,367 {\an8}...was a murder-suicide. 448 00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:31,967 The note that I read that put chills in my spine 449 00:22:31,967 --> 00:22:34,467 also explained to me 450 00:22:34,467 --> 00:22:36,367 what was going on inside this guy's head. 451 00:22:36,367 --> 00:22:38,066 You know? The good, evil aspect, 452 00:22:38,066 --> 00:22:40,467 and the end result, so, basically, you know, 453 00:22:40,467 --> 00:22:43,667 we closed the case based on the evidence we had at hand. 454 00:22:43,667 --> 00:22:44,900 The case was closed. 455 00:22:47,066 --> 00:22:48,133 [Sandra Brown] So now, the years go by, 456 00:22:48,133 --> 00:22:50,500 and I find out two days after this case started 457 00:22:50,567 --> 00:22:53,367 that the U.S. Department of Justice was involved, 458 00:22:53,367 --> 00:22:57,066 that a subpoena was sent in by the United States District Court. 459 00:22:59,467 --> 00:23:01,367 So, we have Palo Alto, 460 00:23:01,367 --> 00:23:04,767 and then we have San Francisco FBI, 461 00:23:04,767 --> 00:23:08,567 and now we have the United States District Court Northern District. 462 00:23:08,567 --> 00:23:11,100 How did we go from local police 463 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:13,467 all the way over to United States... 464 00:23:14,467 --> 00:23:15,404 ...criminal investigations? 465 00:23:15,404 --> 00:23:16,000 ...criminal investigations? 466 00:23:16,066 --> 00:23:18,600 So, it makes me think this little bedroom, 467 00:23:18,667 --> 00:23:20,767 a guy who kills his wife and son 468 00:23:20,767 --> 00:23:22,467 and then kills himself is not so little. 469 00:23:22,467 --> 00:23:23,600 That it's bigger than that. 470 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:29,867 Did anybody know before we were interviewed about this, 471 00:23:29,867 --> 00:23:30,900 did anybody know about... 472 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:33,400 ...that paperwork? 473 00:23:33,467 --> 00:23:34,867 -I don't remember it at all. -[Brown] Okay. 474 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:41,166 {\an8}[Chan] I have no recollection of that subpoena at all, 475 00:23:41,166 --> 00:23:44,000 but when I look back at how we did our, 476 00:23:44,066 --> 00:23:45,404 you know, investigations, 477 00:23:45,404 --> 00:23:45,600 you know, investigations, 478 00:23:45,667 --> 00:23:46,000 it, you know, it can be explained. 479 00:23:50,266 --> 00:23:52,867 My thought process and rationality is that 480 00:23:52,867 --> 00:23:56,000 Mike opened the door to use them as a resource, 481 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,266 {\an8}when they called... 482 00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:03,166 {\an8}...the FBI, actually had an agent that spoke Russian 483 00:24:03,166 --> 00:24:04,600 {\an8}and could help translate his documents. 484 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,467 {\an8}They also provided the handwriting analysis of the note, 485 00:24:09,467 --> 00:24:11,166 {\an8}but in order for them to even do, 486 00:24:11,166 --> 00:24:13,467 {\an8}like, uh, check with their counterintelligence 487 00:24:13,467 --> 00:24:15,166 to see if Vladimir had any kind of connections, 488 00:24:15,166 --> 00:24:15,404 all that kind of stuff, they'd have to do this paperwork. 489 00:24:15,404 --> 00:24:16,000 all that kind of stuff, they'd have to do this paperwork. 490 00:24:18,266 --> 00:24:19,433 Okay. 491 00:24:19,467 --> 00:24:21,266 They did the paperwork, obviously, 'cause we have it. 492 00:24:21,266 --> 00:24:22,967 -Mmm-hmm. -So, I'm not disputing that, 493 00:24:22,967 --> 00:24:25,266 and then they found zilch. 494 00:24:25,266 --> 00:24:26,767 Because otherwise, if they would have told us, 495 00:24:26,767 --> 00:24:29,000 "Hey, there's a connection, we helped you guys out, 496 00:24:29,066 --> 00:24:30,767 this is something you need to be concerned about," 497 00:24:30,767 --> 00:24:31,967 we would have followed up on it. 498 00:24:31,967 --> 00:24:34,000 -And that's my assumption. -That's your assumption? 499 00:24:34,066 --> 00:24:35,333 -Yeah, because... -Okay. 500 00:24:35,333 --> 00:24:37,900 ...I mean, I'm confident in the work that Mike and I did. 501 00:24:37,967 --> 00:24:40,900 I don't have any doubt that the work that you did was great work. 502 00:24:40,967 --> 00:24:43,266 Right, and so, if we did not get notified 503 00:24:43,266 --> 00:24:44,800 that there's something going on, then... 504 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,266 ...I'm not gonna dispute that 505 00:24:47,266 --> 00:24:49,166 because I don't know what the FBI has. 506 00:24:49,166 --> 00:24:51,000 [Brown] So, on that note, I found that person 507 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,500 {\an8}that was the subject of the subpoena. 508 00:24:53,567 --> 00:24:57,200 I found that individual's information, contact information, 509 00:24:57,266 --> 00:24:58,367 so, I reached out to them. 510 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,800 This person was associated with Vladimir, 511 00:25:04,867 --> 00:25:08,767 uh, he would be a business association 512 00:25:08,767 --> 00:25:10,700 and maybe, uh, a friend. 513 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:15,404 {\an8}This person's not comfortable talking on camera. 514 00:25:15,404 --> 00:25:16,000 {\an8}This person's not comfortable talking on camera. 515 00:25:18,166 --> 00:25:20,266 I'm not gonna use this particular person's name. 516 00:25:20,967 --> 00:25:22,800 But this particular person 517 00:25:22,867 --> 00:25:25,400 was interviewed by the FBI. 518 00:25:28,867 --> 00:25:31,500 I wanna play the audio, 519 00:25:31,567 --> 00:25:33,600 it was over the telephone, I wanna play the audio for you. 520 00:25:35,367 --> 00:25:36,567 {\an8}[voice on recording] 521 00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:55,367 [Brown] What do you think? 522 00:25:55,367 --> 00:25:57,066 Everything has to make sense to me, 523 00:25:57,066 --> 00:25:59,066 and this one has never made sense to me. 524 00:25:59,066 --> 00:26:00,367 I think with all the information 525 00:26:00,367 --> 00:26:02,567 that was from that conversation, 526 00:26:02,567 --> 00:26:04,300 it just got cloudier. 527 00:26:04,367 --> 00:26:06,100 I just find it odd 528 00:26:06,166 --> 00:26:09,200 that the FBI show up day two with all this information. 529 00:26:09,266 --> 00:26:12,266 Let's just say we took word that there was a file 530 00:26:12,266 --> 00:26:15,100 that the FBI showed them about this case. 531 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:15,404 Let's say the homicide occurred on Monday, 532 00:26:15,404 --> 00:26:16,000 Let's say the homicide occurred on Monday, 533 00:26:16,667 --> 00:26:18,300 {\an8}on Tuesday they have all this information 534 00:26:18,367 --> 00:26:20,100 {\an8}plus a grand jury subpoena 535 00:26:20,166 --> 00:26:21,800 {\an8}through the United States District Court 536 00:26:21,867 --> 00:26:24,867 {\an8}also from their Organized Crime and Racketeering Section. 537 00:26:24,867 --> 00:26:28,066 {\an8}Is there a possibility that the FBI 538 00:26:28,066 --> 00:26:29,800 was looking at this situation 539 00:26:29,867 --> 00:26:32,867 and this homicide, suicide or whatever occurred, 540 00:26:32,867 --> 00:26:34,467 and they were already involved? 541 00:26:34,467 --> 00:26:36,000 Is that a possibility? 542 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:39,967 [Jean Bready] I mean, I find it surprising. 543 00:26:39,967 --> 00:26:43,667 If it is strictly related to our investigation, 544 00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:45,404 then it's so quick. 545 00:26:45,404 --> 00:26:45,667 then it's so quick. 546 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,400 Well, and that they were able to put together 547 00:26:49,467 --> 00:26:51,600 a federal grand jury in order to come with that subpoena, 548 00:26:51,667 --> 00:26:53,133 -I mean... -[Brown] Thank you. 549 00:26:53,166 --> 00:26:55,000 ...my thought process in regards to putting a grand jury together, 550 00:26:55,066 --> 00:26:57,567 -you know, you gotta present evidence... -[Brown] Mmm-hmm. 551 00:26:57,567 --> 00:26:59,867 ...you know, of an ongoing investigation, 552 00:26:59,867 --> 00:27:01,467 you know, things like that, 553 00:27:01,467 --> 00:27:03,500 -it's not something that happens in a day. -Overnight. Yeah. 554 00:27:03,567 --> 00:27:05,300 Well, I mean, obviously, it did, 555 00:27:05,367 --> 00:27:07,300 you know, but they were able to do it 556 00:27:07,367 --> 00:27:08,967 based on stuff that they had gathered 557 00:27:08,967 --> 00:27:11,166 or had with them 558 00:27:11,166 --> 00:27:13,567 before we had even started collecting evidence. 559 00:27:15,166 --> 00:27:15,404 -That's what I'm trying to get us to. -Okay, so, no, 560 00:27:15,404 --> 00:27:16,000 -That's what I'm trying to get us to. -Okay, so, no, 561 00:27:17,166 --> 00:27:20,166 yeah, so, it's evidence that the FBI probably did have a file... 562 00:27:20,166 --> 00:27:22,300 -Mmm-hmm. Okay. -[Wong] ...or some kind of investigation... 563 00:27:22,367 --> 00:27:23,800 -Yes. -...but an investigation-- 564 00:27:23,867 --> 00:27:25,567 -Prior to our case? Okay. -Yeah, prior to this going on. 565 00:27:25,567 --> 00:27:28,367 Based on that right there, I don't doubt that. 566 00:27:28,367 --> 00:27:30,200 But would I like to know the answers 567 00:27:30,266 --> 00:27:32,467 to some of the questions that, you know, you brought up, 568 00:27:32,467 --> 00:27:33,867 Absolutely. Absolutely. 569 00:27:33,867 --> 00:27:36,367 Would it change my mind? 570 00:27:36,367 --> 00:27:38,700 Don't know because I don't have the answers to those questions. 571 00:27:41,166 --> 00:27:43,567 As I'm sitting down and I'm talking to my colleagues, 572 00:27:43,567 --> 00:27:45,404 I've realized that it's time to ask Mike and Scott 573 00:27:45,404 --> 00:27:46,000 I've realized that it's time to ask Mike and Scott 574 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,367 about why the evidence was destroyed. 575 00:27:50,367 --> 00:27:53,166 I'm very uncomfortable sharing this with my colleagues. 576 00:27:53,166 --> 00:27:54,567 [exhales deeply] 577 00:27:54,567 --> 00:27:56,767 I'm not looking forward to talking about it, 578 00:27:56,767 --> 00:28:01,100 but it adds another layer of suspiciousness to this case 579 00:28:01,166 --> 00:28:03,767 that I feel we don't have a complete answer to. 580 00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:08,400 Now, I wanna talk about the evidence. 581 00:28:14,166 --> 00:28:15,100 Can we have a break? 582 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:15,404 -[director] Yeah. -Okay. 583 00:28:15,404 --> 00:28:16,000 -[director] Yeah. -Okay. 584 00:28:16,667 --> 00:28:17,600 Be right back. 585 00:28:44,767 --> 00:28:46,266 [Brown] So, I was really curious, 586 00:28:46,266 --> 00:28:47,767 am I remembering the evidence? 587 00:28:47,767 --> 00:28:49,600 {\an8}'Cause I haven't looked at the evidence on this case 588 00:28:49,667 --> 00:28:51,100 {\an8}since back then, 589 00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:52,367 -Have you looked at it? -No. 590 00:28:52,367 --> 00:28:53,567 -Have you looked at it? -No. 591 00:28:53,567 --> 00:28:55,000 -Have you gone back and looked at it? -No. 592 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,467 -No. Have you looked at it? -No. 593 00:28:56,467 --> 00:28:59,040 No. So, I wanted to see it, and I went to the PD. 594 00:28:59,040 --> 00:28:59,266 No. So, I wanted to see it, and I went to the PD. 595 00:29:00,066 --> 00:29:01,567 I've been gone for 12 years, 596 00:29:01,567 --> 00:29:04,100 but the new property manager, I hired her, 597 00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:06,900 and I let her know that I wanna look at this stuff 598 00:29:06,967 --> 00:29:09,100 'cause I wanna see the photos, I wanna look at the bodies 599 00:29:09,166 --> 00:29:10,367 because I could have been wrong. 600 00:29:10,367 --> 00:29:11,567 Because I'm not perfect, right? 601 00:29:11,567 --> 00:29:13,567 And she goes, "Well, I've got some bad news for you, 602 00:29:13,567 --> 00:29:15,967 I can't show you this stuff 'cause it's gone." 603 00:29:17,266 --> 00:29:18,467 I go, "What do you mean, 'it's gone'?" 604 00:29:18,467 --> 00:29:19,900 -She goes... -So, the evidence is gone? 605 00:29:19,967 --> 00:29:22,300 -[Brown] The evidence was destroyed. -What? 606 00:29:23,266 --> 00:29:24,767 -Are you sure about that? -How-- 607 00:29:24,767 --> 00:29:26,400 Oh, I'm 100% sure about it. 608 00:29:26,467 --> 00:29:28,467 Not only was the evidence destroyed, 609 00:29:28,467 --> 00:29:29,040 I wanna see how y'all feel about this. 610 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,000 I wanna see how y'all feel about this. 611 00:29:30,767 --> 00:29:32,100 The evidence was destroyed 612 00:29:32,166 --> 00:29:34,467 six months after the case was closed. 613 00:29:36,166 --> 00:29:37,467 [Chan] That year or... 614 00:29:37,467 --> 00:29:39,400 -1999. -[Chan] 1999? 615 00:29:39,467 --> 00:29:42,700 Photos, blood, clothing, rugs, 616 00:29:42,767 --> 00:29:45,567 everything that we didn't return to the family's attorney, 617 00:29:45,567 --> 00:29:48,967 the probate attorney, was disposed of. 618 00:29:48,967 --> 00:29:51,700 So, our experience is that we would never get rid of that. 619 00:29:51,767 --> 00:29:54,066 Even though we know who we think we know 620 00:29:54,066 --> 00:29:55,867 who the suspect is, right? 621 00:29:55,867 --> 00:29:58,300 There's not a third party involved. 622 00:29:58,367 --> 00:29:59,040 The case is closed, it's still a murder-suicide, 623 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,000 The case is closed, it's still a murder-suicide, 624 00:30:01,367 --> 00:30:02,867 would we get rid of the evidence? 625 00:30:03,467 --> 00:30:04,367 -No. -[Brown] No. 626 00:30:04,367 --> 00:30:05,800 [Bready] And when I was on late duty, 627 00:30:05,867 --> 00:30:07,266 one of the things they had me do 628 00:30:07,266 --> 00:30:09,166 was open up our two cold cases 629 00:30:09,166 --> 00:30:11,600 and we still had evidence from those cold cases 630 00:30:12,467 --> 00:30:13,467 from the '70s. 631 00:30:14,967 --> 00:30:17,000 {\an8}Homicide cases, they're never destroyed. 632 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,700 {\an8}How did it say it was destroyed and by who? 633 00:30:18,767 --> 00:30:20,266 {\an8}Is there any of that paperwork? 634 00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:22,100 [Brown] Okay. 635 00:30:23,767 --> 00:30:26,700 So, I'm, this is difficult to talk about this. 636 00:30:26,767 --> 00:30:29,040 How would you feel if I told you two 637 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:29,100 How would you feel if I told you two 638 00:30:29,166 --> 00:30:30,000 that I had a conversation 639 00:30:31,266 --> 00:30:34,400 with the former, uh, evidence tech, 640 00:30:35,266 --> 00:30:36,767 and that she 641 00:30:37,667 --> 00:30:39,400 told me she contact you guys. 642 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,567 She said she went up and talked to both of you 643 00:30:43,567 --> 00:30:45,667 and said, "Hey, we can't keep this stuff, 644 00:30:45,767 --> 00:30:46,967 we've got a lot of stuff, 645 00:30:46,967 --> 00:30:48,700 if this case is closed, can we get rid of it?" 646 00:30:48,767 --> 00:30:51,800 Do you have a memory of that occurring 647 00:30:51,867 --> 00:30:53,266 {\an8}about this evidence? 648 00:30:53,266 --> 00:30:54,467 {\an8}None whatsoever. 649 00:30:54,467 --> 00:30:55,500 {\an8}[Wong] Not at all. 650 00:30:55,567 --> 00:30:56,634 [Bready] But would you have? 651 00:30:56,634 --> 00:30:59,040 I can't imagine that you would have agreed to that. 652 00:30:59,040 --> 00:30:59,767 I can't imagine that you would have agreed to that. 653 00:30:59,767 --> 00:31:00,000 -[Brown] So... -I don't think I would. 654 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,700 So, you looked shocked... 655 00:31:02,767 --> 00:31:04,066 -Yeah, I'm surprised. -...you looked shocked. 656 00:31:04,066 --> 00:31:05,266 Yeah, I'll tell you I'm shocked. 657 00:31:05,266 --> 00:31:07,967 We're blown away by it, okay. 658 00:31:07,967 --> 00:31:10,200 Uh, I don't doubt the credibility of what they said 659 00:31:10,266 --> 00:31:11,500 in regards to the conversation, 660 00:31:11,567 --> 00:31:14,567 but I would tell you this based on my, uh, 661 00:31:14,567 --> 00:31:16,800 experience and recollection of everything that happened, 662 00:31:16,867 --> 00:31:18,266 if Mike had made that call back then, 663 00:31:18,266 --> 00:31:20,300 then I was agree... I agree with it. 664 00:31:20,367 --> 00:31:22,166 I mean, I don't question Mike's decision, 665 00:31:22,166 --> 00:31:24,367 and I know Mike wouldn't have made that decision without me, so... 666 00:31:24,367 --> 00:31:25,467 -[Denson] No. -[Brown] Okay, so here's-- 667 00:31:25,467 --> 00:31:26,967 [Wong] But this is, it is, it is bizarre. 668 00:31:26,967 --> 00:31:28,367 [Brown] It's bizarre. 669 00:31:28,367 --> 00:31:29,040 So, you understand I'm not, 670 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,000 So, you understand I'm not, 671 00:31:31,367 --> 00:31:33,467 I'm not accusing anybody of anything. 672 00:31:33,467 --> 00:31:35,000 Can I say something? 673 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,867 -If these two individuals... -[Brown] Mmm-hmm. 674 00:31:37,867 --> 00:31:40,000 ...if they knew about the FBI investigation, 675 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,266 {\an8}they would not have allowed that evidence to be destroyed. 676 00:31:44,266 --> 00:31:45,967 {\an8}[Brown] That's where I'm going. 677 00:31:45,967 --> 00:31:48,467 The FBI, they didn't tell us about the file, 678 00:31:48,467 --> 00:31:49,867 they didn't tell us about the subpoena, 679 00:31:49,867 --> 00:31:52,166 I don't think you knew how deep they were. 680 00:31:52,166 --> 00:31:54,266 I know we didn't, and I really do believe 681 00:31:54,266 --> 00:31:56,000 that they were already investigating, 682 00:31:56,066 --> 00:31:57,867 they already had eyeballs on here, 683 00:31:57,867 --> 00:31:59,040 and something went wrong, and this family ended up dead. 684 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,000 and something went wrong, and this family ended up dead. 685 00:32:00,367 --> 00:32:03,166 This was a much deeper case that we didn't know about. 686 00:32:03,166 --> 00:32:04,667 It just happened in our jurisdiction. 687 00:32:06,367 --> 00:32:09,200 If the FBI had been forward-thinking 688 00:32:09,266 --> 00:32:10,867 along with our organization, 689 00:32:10,867 --> 00:32:12,100 they didn't have to tell me about it, 690 00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:14,200 but they could have told Mike, they could have told Scott. 691 00:32:14,266 --> 00:32:16,266 "Hey, this is an ongoing investigation. 692 00:32:16,266 --> 00:32:19,100 You are not allowed to tell anybody on your team that it's ongoing. 693 00:32:19,166 --> 00:32:20,767 Do not get rid of the evidence." 694 00:32:20,767 --> 00:32:22,467 Why didn't they talk to us? 695 00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:25,567 Did they have something else going on? 696 00:32:26,266 --> 00:32:28,367 Very evident now that they did. 697 00:32:28,367 --> 00:32:29,040 I don't doubt now, looking at this 698 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:29,967 I don't doubt now, looking at this 699 00:32:29,967 --> 00:32:30,000 and your analysis and everything 700 00:32:31,567 --> 00:32:33,967 that the FBI had a file, some kind of file on him. 701 00:32:33,967 --> 00:32:36,500 'Kay. Curtis, what do you think? 702 00:32:36,567 --> 00:32:38,266 It's like the game Tetris. Just, like... 703 00:32:38,266 --> 00:32:41,166 -[Brown] Yeah. -These blocks are coming down, right? 704 00:32:41,166 --> 00:32:43,266 -[Brown] Yeah. -The blocks are questions. 705 00:32:43,266 --> 00:32:44,900 When they fit perfect down at the bottom, 706 00:32:44,967 --> 00:32:46,767 -we got the answer to that question. -Okay. 707 00:32:46,767 --> 00:32:48,500 There's a lot of blocks that not fitting 708 00:32:48,567 --> 00:32:49,967 at the bottom row right now. 709 00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:52,967 Now, let me just throw one more thing. 710 00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:57,867 So, I found some more shocking information. 711 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,266 I found in the case file a friend of Yelena's. 712 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,500 {\an8}I spoke to that person, 713 00:33:07,567 --> 00:33:09,066 {\an8}and it makes your jaw drop. 714 00:33:10,967 --> 00:33:12,100 {\an8}[voice on phone] 715 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,767 So, there's other stuff that has come out. 716 00:33:38,767 --> 00:33:40,967 So, I found in the case file 717 00:33:40,967 --> 00:33:43,500 a close friend of Yelena's 718 00:33:43,567 --> 00:33:45,066 living here in Palo Alto. 719 00:33:45,066 --> 00:33:47,467 She knew Yelena very well. 720 00:33:47,467 --> 00:33:49,967 So, I've looked up their contact information 721 00:33:49,967 --> 00:33:51,667 and I gave them a call 722 00:33:52,367 --> 00:33:53,667 and we started talking. 723 00:33:54,900 --> 00:33:58,667 This person, shortly after the homicide, 724 00:33:58,734 --> 00:33:58,881 was contacted by someone in Russia 725 00:33:58,881 --> 00:33:59,000 was contacted by someone in Russia 726 00:34:01,467 --> 00:34:03,266 that was related to Yelena. 727 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,367 Shortly after this crime occurred, 728 00:34:08,367 --> 00:34:11,967 this family member in Russia went to run some errands, 729 00:34:11,967 --> 00:34:13,767 and when they returned to their apartment... 730 00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:16,900 ...there was someone in their apartment. 731 00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:19,567 {\an8}[voice on phone] 732 00:34:30,767 --> 00:34:32,667 [Brown] Someone was looking for information. 733 00:34:32,734 --> 00:34:35,166 This is right after the death of the family, 734 00:34:35,166 --> 00:34:36,767 and that right there tells me 735 00:34:36,767 --> 00:34:38,800 there's more to the story than what we're getting. 736 00:34:38,867 --> 00:34:40,000 {\an8}[voice on phone] 737 00:34:48,867 --> 00:34:50,867 That person in Russia, 738 00:34:50,867 --> 00:34:54,367 they were so concerned about what that was about 739 00:34:54,367 --> 00:34:57,000 that they left the country, they did not go back, 740 00:34:57,066 --> 00:34:58,467 and they came to America. 741 00:34:58,467 --> 00:34:58,881 -[Chan] Shortly after we got our homicide? -Yes. 742 00:34:58,881 --> 00:34:59,000 -[Chan] Shortly after we got our homicide? -Yes. 743 00:35:01,567 --> 00:35:04,166 They came to America because they were concerned 744 00:35:04,166 --> 00:35:06,767 if this was Russian mob or mafia, 745 00:35:06,767 --> 00:35:08,166 they didn't wanna get involved in it. 746 00:35:08,166 --> 00:35:10,166 And early on, 747 00:35:10,166 --> 00:35:11,967 there was a lot of the Russian community 748 00:35:11,967 --> 00:35:13,767 that were telling us, 749 00:35:13,767 --> 00:35:16,100 -"Look into the mob situation... -[Brown] Mmm-hmm. 750 00:35:16,166 --> 00:35:17,467 [Bready] ...look into this." 751 00:35:17,467 --> 00:35:19,467 I mean, when someone leaves the country 752 00:35:19,467 --> 00:35:21,166 because they're afraid for their life? 753 00:35:21,166 --> 00:35:24,066 What that tells me is this particular person's 754 00:35:24,066 --> 00:35:26,967 concern and fear was real. It was real. 755 00:35:26,967 --> 00:35:28,767 And we have to pay attention to that. 756 00:35:28,767 --> 00:35:28,881 Okay, did anything change for you today? 757 00:35:28,881 --> 00:35:29,000 Okay, did anything change for you today? 758 00:35:32,166 --> 00:35:34,266 Coming in here and hearing all this stuff. 759 00:35:34,266 --> 00:35:35,567 Anything change for you? 760 00:35:35,567 --> 00:35:37,266 I mean, the only thing that changed for me 761 00:35:37,266 --> 00:35:41,100 is, is that, uh, it's evident to me now 762 00:35:41,166 --> 00:35:43,667 that the FBI had some kind of, um, 763 00:35:43,734 --> 00:35:46,467 outside investigation into, 764 00:35:46,467 --> 00:35:48,467 you know, the, uh, the suspect. 765 00:35:48,467 --> 00:35:50,300 -Based on the subpoenas that showed up. -[Brown] Mmm-hmm. 766 00:35:50,367 --> 00:35:53,367 Um, but it didn't change my closing of the case 767 00:35:53,367 --> 00:35:54,266 as a murder-suicide. 768 00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:56,266 When you guys expressed your concerns 769 00:35:56,266 --> 00:35:58,000 about, "Oh, how could someone do that?" 770 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:58,881 You know, I go back to one of my homicide classes, 771 00:35:58,881 --> 00:35:59,000 You know, I go back to one of my homicide classes, 772 00:36:00,266 --> 00:36:01,667 and you guys may have even seen it, 773 00:36:01,734 --> 00:36:03,367 where they had one victim 774 00:36:03,367 --> 00:36:05,100 that they showed us a picture of that 775 00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:07,100 this guy was laid out, if I'm not mistaken, 776 00:36:07,166 --> 00:36:09,500 on a bed like this, and he had, like, 777 00:36:09,567 --> 00:36:11,900 six or seven, eight knives shoved down his throat. 778 00:36:11,967 --> 00:36:13,500 And you look at that, and you go, 779 00:36:13,567 --> 00:36:15,166 "Whoa, look at this, this is crazy." 780 00:36:15,166 --> 00:36:17,266 You know, and the people doing the training said, 781 00:36:17,266 --> 00:36:18,767 "This is a suicide." 782 00:36:18,767 --> 00:36:20,567 And you go, "Wow, how could someone do that?" 783 00:36:20,567 --> 00:36:21,667 -Right? -Mmm-hmm. 784 00:36:21,667 --> 00:36:23,000 [Wong] So, this... 785 00:36:24,166 --> 00:36:25,367 ...to me, was not a surprise. 786 00:36:25,367 --> 00:36:26,867 -[Brown] Mmm-hmm. Okay. -[Wong] It was doable. 787 00:36:28,166 --> 00:36:28,881 Jean? 788 00:36:28,881 --> 00:36:29,000 Jean? 789 00:36:29,166 --> 00:36:31,667 I think it just, uh, fed me more... 790 00:36:32,667 --> 00:36:33,734 ...fuel for my fire that... 791 00:36:34,734 --> 00:36:36,667 ...there was something odd about this case. 792 00:36:36,734 --> 00:36:39,567 I still believe that it was, uh, 793 00:36:39,567 --> 00:36:41,867 not a murder-suicide. 794 00:36:41,867 --> 00:36:44,667 I believe that it was a triple homicide. 795 00:36:44,734 --> 00:36:47,066 Okay. Curtis, what do you think? 796 00:36:47,066 --> 00:36:49,266 Hearing all this, I have my suspicions. 797 00:36:49,266 --> 00:36:50,667 Why two hammers? 798 00:36:50,734 --> 00:36:52,667 Why did he kill the family and himself? 799 00:36:52,667 --> 00:36:53,767 There are still some holes? 800 00:36:54,367 --> 00:36:55,200 Yes. 801 00:36:56,166 --> 00:36:57,133 Mike? 802 00:36:57,166 --> 00:36:58,667 [Denson] Even if it was a murder-suicide, 803 00:36:58,734 --> 00:36:58,881 I think there's a lot, um, a lot of unanswered questions 804 00:36:58,881 --> 00:36:59,000 I think there's a lot, um, a lot of unanswered questions 805 00:37:02,266 --> 00:37:03,200 in the case. 806 00:37:03,266 --> 00:37:05,500 But the FBI part of it, I have no doubt, 807 00:37:05,567 --> 00:37:08,166 -um, that they could have had an investigation going on. -[Brown] Mmm-hmm. 808 00:37:08,166 --> 00:37:10,734 Um, would they have told me? Probably not. 809 00:37:10,734 --> 00:37:12,000 Unless I needed to know. 810 00:37:12,066 --> 00:37:14,800 And so, we don't know what the FBI's still got going 811 00:37:14,867 --> 00:37:16,900 -that could connect back to this. -Okay. 812 00:37:18,767 --> 00:37:20,500 It was great to see my friends. 813 00:37:21,767 --> 00:37:23,266 Some of them I haven't seen in years. 814 00:37:25,066 --> 00:37:26,900 I knew something was off then... 815 00:37:28,066 --> 00:37:28,881 ...and after reopening this case 816 00:37:28,881 --> 00:37:29,000 ...and after reopening this case 817 00:37:29,567 --> 00:37:31,467 and looking at all the new evidence that we've gotten, 818 00:37:31,467 --> 00:37:32,767 I now know I was right. 819 00:37:38,066 --> 00:37:39,667 There are people that we've interviewed 820 00:37:39,734 --> 00:37:42,767 that are afraid to talk about this case 24 years later 821 00:37:42,767 --> 00:37:45,467 because of Russian organized crime. 822 00:37:45,467 --> 00:37:47,900 They're afraid that the hand from Russia 823 00:37:47,967 --> 00:37:49,500 reaches all the way to America. 824 00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:52,600 [Joe Serio] This is the thing about Russia, 825 00:37:52,667 --> 00:37:55,100 {\an8}I don't care if you're in the United States, 826 00:37:55,166 --> 00:37:57,166 {\an8}Russia still is a factor, right? 827 00:37:58,300 --> 00:37:58,881 There are so many layers, 828 00:37:58,881 --> 00:37:59,000 There are so many layers, 829 00:38:00,867 --> 00:38:03,066 and there's so many dark alleyways 830 00:38:03,066 --> 00:38:06,734 that most Americans would find absolutely astounding 831 00:38:06,734 --> 00:38:08,300 and totally unbelievable. 832 00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:13,800 And we've seen the oddest things happen coming out of Russia 833 00:38:13,867 --> 00:38:16,900 that you would think, "There's no way that happened in real life." 834 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:18,800 What if they do? 835 00:38:18,867 --> 00:38:21,066 Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, 836 00:38:21,066 --> 00:38:23,266 more than 150 journalists have been murdered. 837 00:38:23,266 --> 00:38:26,400 {\an8}Businessmen in the largest industries in Russia 838 00:38:26,467 --> 00:38:28,066 {\an8}have been murdered. 839 00:38:28,066 --> 00:38:28,881 {\an8}Government officials have been assassinated, 840 00:38:28,881 --> 00:38:29,000 {\an8}Government officials have been assassinated, 841 00:38:30,467 --> 00:38:32,734 {\an8}they're families have been assassinated. 842 00:38:32,734 --> 00:38:36,200 {\an8}Sergey Protosenya, his wife and daughter found dead. 843 00:38:36,266 --> 00:38:39,066 {\an8}This is at their home in Spain. 844 00:38:39,066 --> 00:38:42,967 [Serio] When people say, "Oh, it looks like Putin's fingerprints 845 00:38:42,967 --> 00:38:45,200 all over these oligarch murders," 846 00:38:45,266 --> 00:38:48,667 that doesn't mean that Putin said to somebody, 847 00:38:48,667 --> 00:38:50,467 "Go kill these oligarchs." 848 00:38:50,467 --> 00:38:53,867 The people in his circle, the people with these kinds of skills, 849 00:38:53,867 --> 00:38:55,066 they already know... 850 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,881 "...if an opposition arises, we gotta get rid of him." 851 00:38:58,881 --> 00:38:59,000 "...if an opposition arises, we gotta get rid of him." 852 00:38:59,734 --> 00:39:02,867 It's exactly the telltale marks of Vladimir's murder. 853 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,266 Why would somebody who can't handle the stress 854 00:39:08,266 --> 00:39:10,600 and even wants to spare his family 855 00:39:10,667 --> 00:39:13,100 the misery of being broke kill himself... 856 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,667 ...and do it in this way 857 00:39:16,667 --> 00:39:21,000 that has precedence in Russian mafia circles? 858 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,867 Vladimir sat in offices all day. He was a coder. 859 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:26,667 These are not the methods of a coder. 860 00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:31,667 {\an8}[man speaking] 861 00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:02,667 [Noam Levey] All murders are tragic. 862 00:40:02,667 --> 00:40:04,667 Some are just heartbreaking, 863 00:40:04,734 --> 00:40:07,367 and this one was very, very difficult. 864 00:40:07,367 --> 00:40:09,066 {\an8}You know, I still wince when I think about... 865 00:40:10,667 --> 00:40:14,066 {\an8}...you know, what must have happened in that house that night. 866 00:40:15,467 --> 00:40:18,000 {\an8}I don't know the truth, 867 00:40:18,066 --> 00:40:20,734 {\an8}and I'm glad that you're going after it. 868 00:40:20,734 --> 00:40:23,166 I sure didn't anticipate 869 00:40:23,166 --> 00:40:25,867 anything like that in that family. 870 00:40:25,867 --> 00:40:28,881 It's very, very difficult to understand and to believe. 871 00:40:28,881 --> 00:40:29,000 It's very, very difficult to understand and to believe. 872 00:40:30,567 --> 00:40:31,467 And, um... 873 00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:34,667 ...it makes me very, very sad. 874 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,300 [Bready] Even though it relates to Tetris, 875 00:40:38,367 --> 00:40:40,467 nobody wins in this case. 876 00:40:40,467 --> 00:40:42,367 Nobody wins. Even if you get the answers, 877 00:40:42,367 --> 00:40:43,567 no matter what the answers are, 878 00:40:43,567 --> 00:40:45,166 it's tragedy all the way around. 879 00:40:48,266 --> 00:40:49,500 [Brown] So, what do I believe? 880 00:40:49,567 --> 00:40:51,266 I believe this was a Russian hit. 881 00:40:51,266 --> 00:40:53,600 Vladimir was killed over some money 882 00:40:53,667 --> 00:40:55,266 that was borrowed with the mafia, 883 00:40:55,266 --> 00:40:58,100 and this case was staged by the Russian mafia 884 00:40:58,100 --> 00:40:58,881 to make it look like Vladimir killed his son 885 00:40:58,881 --> 00:40:59,000 to make it look like Vladimir killed his son 886 00:41:00,767 --> 00:41:01,767 and killed his wife. 887 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,467 In this case, there was a little boy 888 00:41:06,467 --> 00:41:08,967 who was killed in such a heinous manner, 889 00:41:08,967 --> 00:41:11,100 bludgeoned and stabbed to death. 890 00:41:12,867 --> 00:41:14,500 And I wish I could talk to Peter 891 00:41:14,567 --> 00:41:16,734 because I wanna tell Peter, 892 00:41:16,734 --> 00:41:19,567 "Your father, your papa, he didn't kill you and your mom." 893 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,800 And if I could find the persons who did this, 894 00:41:24,567 --> 00:41:26,033 we would take them away 895 00:41:26,033 --> 00:41:28,367 and we would put them in custody and send 'em to prison. 896 00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:33,600 But here's the problem, our evidence was destroyed. 897 00:41:33,667 --> 00:41:36,266 {\an8}So, do I think we're gonna put somebody in jail for it? 898 00:41:36,266 --> 00:41:37,367 {\an8}I really don't think so. 899 00:41:38,266 --> 00:41:39,867 {\an8}You know what my hope would be? 900 00:41:39,867 --> 00:41:42,000 {\an8}That we would be able to put that information out 901 00:41:42,066 --> 00:41:43,200 {\an8}so that everybody knows. 902 00:41:43,767 --> 00:41:45,000 {\an8}For more than 20 years, 903 00:41:45,066 --> 00:41:47,166 {\an8}I've told this story to so many friends 904 00:41:47,166 --> 00:41:48,367 {\an8}and so many acquaintances, 905 00:41:48,367 --> 00:41:50,000 {\an8}I wanna be able to say, 906 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,300 {\an8}"This man did not kill his family." 907 00:41:52,367 --> 00:41:54,500 {\an8}That Vladimir Pokhilko was an innocent man 908 00:41:54,567 --> 00:41:55,667 {\an8}who was blamed for this. 909 00:41:55,667 --> 00:41:57,900 {\an8}And this man and his family 910 00:41:57,967 --> 00:41:58,881 {\an8}didn't die for nothing. 911 00:41:58,881 --> 00:41:59,000 {\an8}didn't die for nothing.