1 00:00:15,599 --> 00:00:18,101 It was like a puzzle trying to put this thing together. 2 00:00:20,938 --> 00:00:24,274 You know, you heard some pretty wild stories. 3 00:00:26,944 --> 00:00:29,738 For the most part, I believed 4 00:00:29,821 --> 00:00:32,115 that something happened. 5 00:00:33,742 --> 00:00:34,576 You know, 6 00:00:35,285 --> 00:00:36,954 where there's smoke, there's a fire. 7 00:00:39,373 --> 00:00:42,459 And the quantity of smoke that had been built up 8 00:00:42,542 --> 00:00:45,754 certainly suggested that there was some fire underneath. 9 00:00:47,464 --> 00:00:51,885 But we had no... Nothing really... No facts to back that up. 10 00:00:54,555 --> 00:00:57,015 Because so much of it was he said, she said. 11 00:00:57,391 --> 00:01:01,603 But in this case, it was he said, she said, she said, she said, she said. 12 00:01:10,445 --> 00:01:14,074 Father Maskell, I wanted him charged. 13 00:01:14,157 --> 00:01:17,661 I wanted to see him sitting in jail for what he had done. 14 00:01:19,413 --> 00:01:21,123 And the only way for that to happen 15 00:01:21,206 --> 00:01:23,500 would've been for the prosecutor to indict him. 16 00:01:25,377 --> 00:01:28,964 Sharon May, she was the chief of the Sex Offense Unit 17 00:01:29,047 --> 00:01:30,924 for the prosecutor's office. 18 00:01:32,050 --> 00:01:34,845 I... I don't know why she didn't. It was out of our hands. 19 00:01:37,514 --> 00:01:38,849 I didn't know what to do. 20 00:01:42,102 --> 00:01:43,353 The state's attorney... 21 00:01:45,772 --> 00:01:46,648 the police... 22 00:01:49,067 --> 00:01:50,569 the archdiocese... 23 00:01:52,738 --> 00:01:53,989 they did nothing. 24 00:01:57,576 --> 00:02:00,787 This man was, you know, back out in a parish. 25 00:02:03,081 --> 00:02:08,670 I... I felt they had no other choice but to say yes to the lawsuit. 26 00:02:11,214 --> 00:02:13,592 They asked if I wanted to be a plaintiff, 27 00:02:14,051 --> 00:02:15,886 and I said yeah. 28 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:19,097 It made me really happy 29 00:02:19,181 --> 00:02:22,768 because I wanted the world to know what horrible things he did. 30 00:02:23,185 --> 00:02:28,940 And, um, I became Jane Roe in the Doe/Roe-Maskell case in '94. 31 00:02:30,317 --> 00:02:34,613 It was determined that we would file suit against Father Maskell, 32 00:02:35,238 --> 00:02:39,618 the School Sisters of Notre Dame, who were the nuns who oversaw the school, 33 00:02:39,701 --> 00:02:44,039 the archdiocese, and the gynecologist, Christian Richter. 34 00:02:46,583 --> 00:02:52,297 It was a huge, huge deal to take on the Church in Baltimore. 35 00:02:53,382 --> 00:02:55,967 It... We were up against a giant. 36 00:04:12,294 --> 00:04:15,547 Somehow it got in the media that we were investigating this thing. 37 00:04:15,630 --> 00:04:18,842 And a lot of girls started calling me and talking to me. 38 00:04:18,925 --> 00:04:21,136 And they wanted us to know there's credibility, 39 00:04:21,219 --> 00:04:23,180 but they didn't want their names used. 40 00:04:23,263 --> 00:04:26,308 Didn't want their families, husbands, knowing anything's going on. 41 00:04:26,975 --> 00:04:28,602 Then we started rolling from there. 42 00:04:29,144 --> 00:04:32,189 We interviewed... I interviewed over a hundred girls myself. 43 00:04:32,272 --> 00:04:34,065 Because... Firsthand or first on site? 44 00:04:34,149 --> 00:04:35,776 What happened... Firsthand? 45 00:04:35,859 --> 00:04:38,361 As we were getting into this, we had to cut it off 46 00:04:38,445 --> 00:04:40,238 because, I mean, we had so many victims. 47 00:04:40,322 --> 00:04:42,407 We were gonna go work on the best cases. 48 00:04:42,991 --> 00:04:44,659 "Maskell had a police officer pick me up." 49 00:04:45,327 --> 00:04:48,163 "Maskell was running around with police, put me in the car." 50 00:04:48,246 --> 00:04:50,707 "Maskell pulled me into his office and examined me on his desk." 51 00:04:51,291 --> 00:04:54,127 And those were the cases that we felt we could really do something with. 52 00:04:55,170 --> 00:04:57,130 We believed them, we had a credible case. 53 00:04:57,631 --> 00:04:59,591 This is what we call a red ball case. 54 00:05:00,050 --> 00:05:03,470 A red ball case is any case that's gonna cause national media attention. 55 00:05:03,553 --> 00:05:05,514 You have to work with the state's attorneys. 56 00:05:05,597 --> 00:05:07,432 So, we were taking it directly to... 57 00:05:08,016 --> 00:05:10,227 Sharon May's office. To Sharon May. 58 00:05:11,186 --> 00:05:13,438 My... My concern with this is I'm still stuck 59 00:05:13,522 --> 00:05:16,608 on why didn't the state's attorney's office charge Maskell? 60 00:05:17,526 --> 00:05:20,987 You say you had a hundred women coming in in '94 61 00:05:21,196 --> 00:05:22,781 with complaints that they were... 62 00:05:22,864 --> 00:05:25,742 That they knew of or that they were involved with sexual abuse. 63 00:05:25,826 --> 00:05:28,662 I'm telling you, Sharon May ran interference for the Church 64 00:05:28,745 --> 00:05:29,996 any time we got a priest case. 65 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,541 She just killed it, then. She'd kill it. 66 00:05:33,041 --> 00:05:37,629 From what I understand after our meeting, our source, Deep Throat, 67 00:05:37,712 --> 00:05:39,881 shared with us that he knows 68 00:05:39,965 --> 00:05:42,717 almost a hundred women came forward, 69 00:05:42,926 --> 00:05:45,554 and that they all came to the police department 70 00:05:46,555 --> 00:05:48,306 and at the very same time, 71 00:05:48,390 --> 00:05:51,351 Joseph Maskell was still performing the Sacraments 72 00:05:51,434 --> 00:05:53,436 at St. Augustine's in Elkridge. 73 00:05:56,565 --> 00:05:59,067 August, 1994... 74 00:06:00,026 --> 00:06:04,155 Beverly Wallace and I... went to church. 75 00:06:05,407 --> 00:06:08,285 A nice suburban couple at church. 76 00:06:11,538 --> 00:06:15,584 Maskell delivered Mass, and he had a voice 77 00:06:15,834 --> 00:06:21,381 that was very soothing and very calming. 78 00:06:24,175 --> 00:06:29,681 Even knowing what I knew about him, I found his voice very reassuring. 79 00:06:32,017 --> 00:06:33,977 Bob and I discussed when we left 80 00:06:34,060 --> 00:06:37,272 how we thought if you had gone to Father Maskell 81 00:06:37,355 --> 00:06:39,983 and were upset or rattled, 82 00:06:40,525 --> 00:06:43,361 that would be a welcome voice to talk to you. 83 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:46,489 That's terrifying. 84 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,416 I met Joe Maskell 85 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,752 at Hopkins University. 86 00:06:59,794 --> 00:07:02,255 And I think it was somewhere around 1982. 87 00:07:03,340 --> 00:07:07,302 The time that I met him, I was in charge of the counseling program. 88 00:07:07,385 --> 00:07:08,637 I was a professor there... 89 00:07:09,512 --> 00:07:13,350 and they had a program that trained school and community counselors. 90 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,227 And he came into that program as a student. 91 00:07:16,311 --> 00:07:18,605 So, I remembered him because of two things. 92 00:07:18,772 --> 00:07:20,148 One, he was a priest, 93 00:07:20,231 --> 00:07:22,233 and the other that he was extremely bright. 94 00:07:23,401 --> 00:07:26,279 Joe wrote like few students can write, 95 00:07:27,030 --> 00:07:28,573 and his speech was wonderful, 96 00:07:28,657 --> 00:07:31,701 so, he was just extremely good as a student. 97 00:07:33,536 --> 00:07:38,625 I saw him as both a colleague and later on, actually, as a friend. 98 00:07:40,001 --> 00:07:44,255 The things that I thought were unusual, but I understood, he... 99 00:07:44,339 --> 00:07:49,678 He liked guns and he... He told me that, and he had a collection of them, I think. 100 00:07:49,761 --> 00:07:54,432 So, I thought he might be interested in playing cops and robbers. 101 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:55,517 I didn't know him. 102 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,936 I never questioned that very much, but I thought... 103 00:07:58,645 --> 00:08:01,272 well, if that was his thing, that was his thing. 104 00:08:02,065 --> 00:08:07,487 I also remember visiting him once when he was... 105 00:08:07,862 --> 00:08:09,906 I was supposed to visit him at a certain time 106 00:08:09,990 --> 00:08:13,910 and he said he was busy in a cemetery, he was digging in a cemetery. 107 00:08:16,871 --> 00:08:20,875 He said it's a very old cemetery and it was unkept. 108 00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:22,335 It was not kept very well. 109 00:08:23,962 --> 00:08:27,966 And besides, he had to bury some psychological papers there. 110 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:33,346 I did not question that overtly to him, 111 00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:35,056 but it sounded strange to me. 112 00:08:42,355 --> 00:08:44,107 Eject button. 113 00:08:44,607 --> 00:08:46,985 I guess maybe this is my eject button. 114 00:08:48,570 --> 00:08:51,197 We could be the last generation who knows how these work. 115 00:08:55,035 --> 00:08:55,869 All right. 116 00:08:56,453 --> 00:08:58,830 So, this is the day after the cemetery dig. 117 00:09:05,795 --> 00:09:09,424 City and county police are teaming to investigate the murder of a nun 118 00:09:09,507 --> 00:09:11,342 more than 20 years ago. 119 00:09:11,426 --> 00:09:14,679 Police dug up a box of records buried at the Holy Cross Cemetery 120 00:09:14,763 --> 00:09:18,725 after an employee told them Reverend Maskell ordered the documents buried. 121 00:09:26,191 --> 00:09:27,817 We get this anonymous thing. 122 00:09:27,901 --> 00:09:31,571 Well, the guy turned out to be this guy named Storey. Mr. Storey calls up. 123 00:09:35,867 --> 00:09:38,453 He says, "Know where the farmers' market parking lot is? 124 00:09:38,995 --> 00:09:41,748 Be there at midnight. Come alone. 125 00:09:43,041 --> 00:09:45,251 I got information that'll blow this case wide open." 126 00:09:49,422 --> 00:09:51,257 So, we go down there on the parking lot. 127 00:09:52,592 --> 00:09:56,012 When he gets in the car and says, "Start driving." So we do. 128 00:09:56,763 --> 00:09:57,680 We start driving. 129 00:10:05,355 --> 00:10:07,023 And we get to Holy Cross Cemetery. 130 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:12,153 Oh, it's dark as hell. It's midnight. 131 00:10:13,738 --> 00:10:15,031 He goes, "Go to the back." 132 00:10:20,078 --> 00:10:22,622 "I wanna tell you where I buried the stuff from Father Maskell." 133 00:10:25,667 --> 00:10:30,213 Well, we got a call from the caretaker... 134 00:10:31,172 --> 00:10:34,092 that the cops are down there, digging up the records. 135 00:10:35,927 --> 00:10:38,471 So, we hopped in the car and sailed down there... 136 00:10:39,013 --> 00:10:42,308 and where they were digging was in the back of the cemetery. 137 00:10:43,226 --> 00:10:46,521 Like, coming over the brow of a hill. Like over a hill and they were... 138 00:10:46,604 --> 00:10:47,939 They are, down at the bottom, 139 00:10:48,148 --> 00:10:53,278 putting these black trash bags full of records into a van. 140 00:10:55,363 --> 00:11:00,034 "The papers exhumed yesterday were buried in the cemetery in 1990 141 00:11:00,118 --> 00:11:02,078 at the direction of Father Maskell. 142 00:11:03,288 --> 00:11:07,292 Baltimore Assistant State's Attorney Sharon A.H. May, 143 00:11:07,375 --> 00:11:09,210 head of the city Sex Abuse Unit, 144 00:11:09,794 --> 00:11:13,798 directed yesterday's excavation, but declined comment on the operation." 145 00:11:16,092 --> 00:11:19,345 One of the boxes that I saw had girls with their shirts open, 146 00:11:19,429 --> 00:11:20,471 exposing their breasts. 147 00:11:21,472 --> 00:11:23,933 And there was records in there talking about... 148 00:11:24,267 --> 00:11:26,394 this individual girl, like a profile. 149 00:11:26,936 --> 00:11:27,979 Clearly in high school. 150 00:11:28,354 --> 00:11:29,689 So, that's a lot of boxes. 151 00:11:29,772 --> 00:11:31,149 And they're in plastic bags. 152 00:11:31,858 --> 00:11:33,276 And that's typical pedophile. 153 00:11:33,359 --> 00:11:35,862 A pedophile cannot separate with his collection. 154 00:11:35,987 --> 00:11:39,490 He can't do it. Even though he knows he can't get to it, he knows it's there. 155 00:11:39,574 --> 00:11:41,242 You saw pictures yourself, correct? 156 00:11:41,326 --> 00:11:43,161 I saw pictures myself, yes, I did. 157 00:11:43,244 --> 00:11:44,287 Enough to arrest Maskell? 158 00:11:44,370 --> 00:11:46,539 We could've done it right then and there. 159 00:11:46,623 --> 00:11:49,959 But what I'm saying is... every damn time we had a case involving a priest, 160 00:11:50,043 --> 00:11:52,170 Sharon May ran interference for the Church. 161 00:11:52,712 --> 00:11:54,672 The division chief of the Sex Offense Unit. 162 00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:57,175 She ran interference. How did she run interference? 163 00:11:57,258 --> 00:12:00,094 Ask for a warrant. "I'll have to look at it. I don't know." 164 00:12:00,178 --> 00:12:03,890 If you got information, and you don't get it within the first 48, it's gone. 165 00:12:03,973 --> 00:12:04,807 The red tape. 166 00:12:04,891 --> 00:12:05,850 It's gone. 167 00:12:18,988 --> 00:12:21,199 So, we went to the cemetery... 168 00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:24,744 and as it turned out, it was a bright sunny day 169 00:12:25,244 --> 00:12:29,040 and I had recently bought a red convertible, 170 00:12:29,123 --> 00:12:32,251 so, I rode there with my top down, you know, 171 00:12:32,335 --> 00:12:34,587 'cause this is just... I mean, we were gonna find 172 00:12:34,671 --> 00:12:37,256 such great evidence, okay? 173 00:12:37,340 --> 00:12:39,258 So, I was pumped up for that. 174 00:12:39,926 --> 00:12:42,762 And we got there and, you know, they were digging. 175 00:12:42,845 --> 00:12:49,060 And I'm just waiting as they pull all this stuff out of this hole. 176 00:12:49,852 --> 00:12:55,692 And it was wet, it had to be dried out, um, you know, and... 177 00:12:55,775 --> 00:12:56,943 And sorted through, 178 00:12:57,026 --> 00:12:59,112 but to my recollection, 179 00:12:59,195 --> 00:13:03,408 there was nothing found that went right to, 180 00:13:03,491 --> 00:13:06,202 "Oh, Maskell molested these kids." 181 00:13:06,661 --> 00:13:09,080 We've heard of one source who says 182 00:13:09,163 --> 00:13:14,127 that they saw pornographic material of teenage girls in there. 183 00:13:14,836 --> 00:13:16,004 You're saying no? 184 00:13:16,337 --> 00:13:20,842 I don't have any recollection that we found pornographic material. 185 00:13:21,009 --> 00:13:23,803 Maybe we did, I just don't remember that. 186 00:13:23,886 --> 00:13:25,304 The version that we've heard 187 00:13:25,388 --> 00:13:28,099 is not that it's, like, produced pornographic material, 188 00:13:28,182 --> 00:13:31,019 they were photographs. Original... That it was like magazines 189 00:13:31,102 --> 00:13:33,479 or some things were... No, like actual photographs. 190 00:13:33,563 --> 00:13:35,314 Oh, photographs? Yeah. 191 00:13:35,398 --> 00:13:36,232 Oh, no. 192 00:13:36,315 --> 00:13:37,400 No, no, no, no, no, no. 193 00:13:37,483 --> 00:13:39,402 I know I would remember photographs. 194 00:13:39,485 --> 00:13:42,572 No. There were no photographs. Mm-mm. 195 00:13:46,868 --> 00:13:51,706 In 1990, I was chief of the Sex Offense Division. 196 00:13:52,290 --> 00:13:55,168 I handled the TNT cases. 197 00:13:55,251 --> 00:13:58,296 Ones where you wouldn't want to be very open 198 00:13:58,379 --> 00:14:02,008 about the investigation until you had something solid. 199 00:14:02,175 --> 00:14:04,260 Assuming you ever got something solid. 200 00:14:05,887 --> 00:14:10,058 We've heard supposedly that 30 to a hundred people came forward 201 00:14:10,141 --> 00:14:11,642 in the Maskell case. 202 00:14:11,726 --> 00:14:13,895 Would you have yourself heard those statements? 203 00:14:14,437 --> 00:14:16,898 I don't remember the number. 204 00:14:16,981 --> 00:14:20,068 I know there were quite a few, but it's been a little while, 205 00:14:20,151 --> 00:14:23,029 and of course, at this point, I don't have files or anything. 206 00:14:23,613 --> 00:14:28,451 Um, the fact that we had a number of victims come forward 207 00:14:29,035 --> 00:14:32,747 was enough to make us look at the situation, 208 00:14:33,247 --> 00:14:38,127 but prosecutors have a very specific obligation 209 00:14:38,211 --> 00:14:39,629 in terms of their conduct. 210 00:14:39,712 --> 00:14:40,797 All lawyers do. 211 00:14:41,339 --> 00:14:45,885 Every case has to stand on its own merit. 212 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:51,391 So, if I charge the case with respect to Mary Smith 213 00:14:51,474 --> 00:14:53,017 and what happened to her, 214 00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:57,980 I cannot, as part of my case in chief, 215 00:14:58,272 --> 00:15:03,653 bring in Betty Jones and Arthur Robinson 216 00:15:03,736 --> 00:15:09,075 to say he's guilty as to the victim charge 217 00:15:09,158 --> 00:15:13,246 because he also did something to these other people allegedly. 218 00:15:13,413 --> 00:15:14,539 You can't do it. 219 00:15:18,418 --> 00:15:21,421 I remember one incident where, 220 00:15:22,004 --> 00:15:25,925 you know, we have a subpoena to get Maskell's records. 221 00:15:27,885 --> 00:15:30,596 So, we went to his office space. 222 00:15:33,808 --> 00:15:38,729 There was a secretary connected with the church. 223 00:15:39,981 --> 00:15:41,649 Um, she let us know 224 00:15:41,732 --> 00:15:46,821 that Maskell had taken all the stuff out and things were gone. 225 00:15:49,365 --> 00:15:54,704 Now, did somebody tip Maskell off or...? You know, I don't know. 226 00:15:56,205 --> 00:15:57,415 But he wasn't there. 227 00:16:00,585 --> 00:16:03,212 And remember, too, the Catholic Church isn't stupid. 228 00:16:04,005 --> 00:16:06,174 They had a lot of things that they could do. 229 00:16:06,299 --> 00:16:09,594 They could move him, they could give him little sabbaticals. 230 00:16:11,304 --> 00:16:13,723 He was apparently hospitalized. 231 00:16:18,478 --> 00:16:20,563 And given the nature of the facility, 232 00:16:20,646 --> 00:16:24,817 that wasn't some place that we would have access to him. 233 00:16:26,319 --> 00:16:30,364 Maskell was... I guess the best word is elusive. 234 00:16:32,783 --> 00:16:35,661 Did you feel like Maskell was guilty of child sex abuse 235 00:16:35,745 --> 00:16:37,371 even if you couldn't prosecute him? 236 00:16:42,376 --> 00:16:45,588 I didn't disbelieve the victims, 237 00:16:46,672 --> 00:16:50,218 but I just didn't have enough to go forward. 238 00:16:50,593 --> 00:16:55,848 So... you know, maybe in the deep recesses of my mind, 239 00:16:55,932 --> 00:16:56,766 yeah. 240 00:16:57,308 --> 00:16:59,352 He did it, you know. 241 00:16:59,477 --> 00:17:03,064 And then why else did the Church move him around, 242 00:17:03,314 --> 00:17:06,192 why else was he unavailable, 243 00:17:06,442 --> 00:17:10,738 why else did he get rid of his records? 244 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,451 But if all you have is the statement of the victim, 245 00:17:15,785 --> 00:17:18,162 that isn't enough. 246 00:17:18,704 --> 00:17:21,290 And so as painful as it may be... 247 00:17:21,958 --> 00:17:25,044 that case perhaps does not get prosecuted. 248 00:17:26,546 --> 00:17:30,091 There's an off-the-record sex crimes detective 249 00:17:30,174 --> 00:17:31,968 who goes under the name Deep Throat 250 00:17:32,093 --> 00:17:35,596 who claims, uh, that the state's attorney's office 251 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,725 ran interference in favor of the Church in these cases, 252 00:17:39,809 --> 00:17:42,353 and what would your response to that be? 253 00:17:44,522 --> 00:17:50,444 I was not one to be intimidated, okay? 254 00:17:50,528 --> 00:17:55,157 If an allegation is made, the investigation was done. 255 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:59,370 I never experienced any pressure 256 00:17:59,453 --> 00:18:02,623 from the Catholic Church not to investigate. 257 00:18:02,748 --> 00:18:07,378 I didn't always get, necessarily, the level of cooperation 258 00:18:07,461 --> 00:18:08,462 that I would've liked. 259 00:18:09,005 --> 00:18:12,508 I wasn't and still am not Catholic, 260 00:18:12,758 --> 00:18:17,346 so, I didn't have any issues that, you know, challenged my faith 261 00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:21,350 or upset my idea of right and wrong. 262 00:18:21,434 --> 00:18:23,811 No. You know, no. 263 00:18:23,894 --> 00:18:27,773 The allegation was made, I looked at it. 264 00:18:27,857 --> 00:18:33,446 If I had had the goods, it got charged, okay? 265 00:18:33,529 --> 00:18:36,991 That's as straightforward as I can be. 266 00:18:37,325 --> 00:18:39,410 I don't care what Deep Throat says. 267 00:18:44,498 --> 00:18:46,667 Somebody's not telling it like it was. 268 00:18:48,085 --> 00:18:52,757 Sharon May, she said, "We found no incriminating photos, 269 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,676 and we found no problem with the files that were in the box." 270 00:18:56,218 --> 00:18:59,764 Deep Throat says, "I looked at girls, nude. 271 00:19:00,306 --> 00:19:02,558 I saw photos of girls with their tops off. 272 00:19:02,642 --> 00:19:04,810 I saw it with my own damn eyes." 273 00:19:06,646 --> 00:19:08,147 Somebody's lying for sure. 274 00:19:13,069 --> 00:19:14,820 This is Eyewitness News. 275 00:19:15,404 --> 00:19:16,405 With Don Scott. 276 00:19:19,158 --> 00:19:20,076 Best be advised. 277 00:19:20,159 --> 00:19:22,370 Why don't you fast-forward it some more? 278 00:19:27,249 --> 00:19:30,086 Not doing... Usually, you can hear it go: 279 00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:31,712 I hear it now. It's very... Yeah. 280 00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:33,506 Hit play. 281 00:19:33,798 --> 00:19:37,051 No, you gotta stop it and then play or it'll snap the old tape. 282 00:19:37,802 --> 00:19:38,844 All right. 283 00:19:41,305 --> 00:19:42,181 Oh, there's... 284 00:19:43,349 --> 00:19:44,183 Here... 285 00:19:44,475 --> 00:19:46,686 To suggest... That's that old doctor. 286 00:19:46,769 --> 00:19:48,521 I'm totally innocent of anything That's... 287 00:19:48,604 --> 00:19:51,607 that they're accusing me of. That's it. Did you know Maskell...? 288 00:19:51,691 --> 00:19:52,775 Dr. Richter was 289 00:19:52,858 --> 00:19:57,488 the gynecologist where Maskell took me on several occasions. 290 00:20:04,662 --> 00:20:08,124 When I went to the gynecologist and I got on the table, 291 00:20:08,207 --> 00:20:09,542 they had the stirrups. 292 00:20:09,917 --> 00:20:13,921 And I remembered trying to put my legs through the stirrup 293 00:20:14,004 --> 00:20:16,382 because I didn't know how to get on the table, and... 294 00:20:16,465 --> 00:20:20,052 Then Maskell was more than eager to show me how to get on the table. 295 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:24,932 Maskell raped me. 296 00:20:26,767 --> 00:20:31,188 And Dr. Richter was, like, at the top of the table, um, feeling my breast. 297 00:20:33,023 --> 00:20:37,653 Richter said, "He really must love you to be in here, 298 00:20:37,737 --> 00:20:39,405 with us." 299 00:20:45,161 --> 00:20:50,040 I interviewed the doctor that Maskell sent some... 300 00:20:51,083 --> 00:20:55,296 I'm not sure how many girls to him for examination. 301 00:20:56,964 --> 00:21:00,050 The doctor admitted to me he allowed Maskell to remain in the room. 302 00:21:06,807 --> 00:21:09,810 As a woman, I was appalled at Dr. Richter's involvement. 303 00:21:13,564 --> 00:21:16,233 He made a statement... With a chuckle, said, 304 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,571 as a priest, it was his only opportunity to see a woman in that position. 305 00:21:24,617 --> 00:21:27,536 That comment incensed me. 306 00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:32,166 That was clearly a violation of medical ethics. 307 00:21:33,292 --> 00:21:37,087 But because he was a priest and a friend... 308 00:21:39,673 --> 00:21:42,802 You know, there was apparently a lot of that kind of stuff going on. 309 00:21:43,844 --> 00:21:45,513 Dr. Richter denies the charges. 310 00:21:46,096 --> 00:21:49,767 I'm totally innocent of anything they're accusing me of. That's it. 311 00:21:50,059 --> 00:21:51,644 Did you know Father Maskell? 312 00:21:54,063 --> 00:21:55,815 Twenty-five years ago, that's all. 313 00:22:02,863 --> 00:22:04,490 Okay. Da-da-da-da-da. 314 00:22:06,617 --> 00:22:10,663 It takes months to maybe years, sometimes, between filing a case 315 00:22:10,871 --> 00:22:13,958 and actually getting it into a courtroom. 316 00:22:14,625 --> 00:22:18,087 First thing I knew of it was there had been a little bit of coverage 317 00:22:18,170 --> 00:22:21,006 about a case, but I didn't really know details. 318 00:22:21,924 --> 00:22:25,219 They just talked about Jane Doe and Jane Roe 319 00:22:25,302 --> 00:22:28,973 and the abuse at Keough that had happened in the early '70s. 320 00:22:29,723 --> 00:22:33,561 I used to read the articles in the paper when they first came out. 321 00:22:34,270 --> 00:22:36,855 I wondered a lot about who Jane Doe was. 322 00:22:37,481 --> 00:22:39,191 Is it someone I knew? 323 00:22:40,317 --> 00:22:44,154 Did they have a worse experience than me? 324 00:22:44,947 --> 00:22:46,865 The anonymous Jane Doe and Jane Roe 325 00:22:46,949 --> 00:22:50,411 claim the abuser was Father Joseph Maskell, a counselor at the school. 326 00:22:51,495 --> 00:22:58,252 We started the civil lawsuit as Jane Doe and myself, Jane Roe. 327 00:23:00,170 --> 00:23:02,548 I mean, there's a lot of people that... 328 00:23:02,631 --> 00:23:05,551 That go berserk when they feel like they're being attacked. 329 00:23:06,552 --> 00:23:09,722 And a lot of people thought that they were being attacked personally 330 00:23:09,805 --> 00:23:12,558 by this priest being brought out to the open. 331 00:23:13,142 --> 00:23:15,102 I was afraid for my family. 332 00:23:16,186 --> 00:23:19,398 They were ridiculed, they were not believed. 333 00:23:20,024 --> 00:23:23,444 I can even remember adults in my own family talking 334 00:23:24,153 --> 00:23:27,406 of how terrible those girls were for saying that. 335 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:33,454 So, how am I gonna come out and talk when I... 336 00:23:33,537 --> 00:23:35,789 I'm hearing this from my own family? 337 00:23:37,082 --> 00:23:38,292 I was certainly not one 338 00:23:38,751 --> 00:23:41,128 that would come forward at that time. 339 00:23:42,129 --> 00:23:44,256 I did a complete media blackout. 340 00:23:44,506 --> 00:23:46,425 I stopped reading newspaper. 341 00:23:46,634 --> 00:23:48,218 I stopped watching the television. 342 00:23:49,303 --> 00:23:54,308 I felt really guilty, but I felt so self-protective, you know, 343 00:23:54,391 --> 00:23:59,396 that I just didn't want anybody to touch my happy little life. 344 00:24:02,232 --> 00:24:03,233 Jane Doe. 345 00:24:03,984 --> 00:24:07,154 I never met Jane Doe, still I haven't met her to this day, 346 00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:10,908 but with someone else saying things that Maskell did, 347 00:24:10,991 --> 00:24:14,161 I was strong enough to come forward and to go into court. 348 00:24:15,162 --> 00:24:16,288 Jane Roe... 349 00:24:16,955 --> 00:24:20,209 I made a point not to meet her. I made a point not to talk to her. 350 00:24:20,542 --> 00:24:22,086 I was remembering things, 351 00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:25,130 and I was very aware that I did not want anyone 352 00:24:25,422 --> 00:24:28,759 and their memories to get in the way of what I was remembering. 353 00:24:33,013 --> 00:24:35,224 Before the case in '94... 354 00:24:35,808 --> 00:24:37,476 we had depositions, 355 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:42,272 and the Church lawyers, they asked me questions for six days. 356 00:24:46,735 --> 00:24:49,822 The depositions were... 357 00:24:51,407 --> 00:24:56,995 I'm sure, what people would say... necessary. 358 00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:02,793 But the experience that I had in these depositions by these lawyers 359 00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:05,879 was... devastating. 360 00:25:07,381 --> 00:25:10,092 They were questions designed to beat me down. 361 00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:13,303 What I did with my high school boyfriend. 362 00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:16,056 Whether I was sexually active. 363 00:25:17,141 --> 00:25:22,938 It's very, very hard for an abuse victim to go through those kind of questions. 364 00:25:25,816 --> 00:25:29,403 The kinds of questions, the intensity of the questions, 365 00:25:29,486 --> 00:25:35,451 the continuation of the questions of answers that I had already given... 366 00:25:37,661 --> 00:25:39,705 And then to start feeling stupid. 367 00:25:39,788 --> 00:25:42,875 Because I couldn't say it in any other way than, um, at that... 368 00:25:42,958 --> 00:25:44,752 I can only say what I have remembered. 369 00:25:47,254 --> 00:25:52,468 I couldn't give them any answer that would make them satisfied. 370 00:26:01,351 --> 00:26:03,562 And it's like being back in the room with Maskell. 371 00:26:04,104 --> 00:26:07,316 I couldn't do that exact thing 372 00:26:07,483 --> 00:26:10,277 that would finally get me the forgiveness 373 00:26:10,736 --> 00:26:13,530 that I had gone into the confessional looking for. 374 00:26:14,948 --> 00:26:18,285 And here I am, sitting in this room, with a wall of lawyers, 375 00:26:18,994 --> 00:26:25,834 and I can't seem to give them what they were pressing me for. 376 00:26:28,837 --> 00:26:30,589 They agreed to let Mike sit in... 377 00:26:31,423 --> 00:26:32,925 but he had to sit behind me. 378 00:26:33,008 --> 00:26:36,053 And if he opened his mouth, he would have to leave. 379 00:26:36,136 --> 00:26:38,514 And Mike knew if he left, I left. 380 00:26:39,723 --> 00:26:42,726 So, he sat behind me, and you could feel like it was a lion, 381 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:46,146 and I just was waiting for him to go over my head 382 00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:48,148 and grab one of these guys by the throat. 383 00:26:58,033 --> 00:27:01,245 We wanted to depose Father Maskell... 384 00:27:02,830 --> 00:27:05,165 but... he disappeared. 385 00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:09,086 He was taken out of his church, but we weren't sure where he was. 386 00:27:10,087 --> 00:27:13,340 I just know that after the night Bob Erlandson and I went to Mass, 387 00:27:13,423 --> 00:27:14,800 I never saw him again. 388 00:27:23,308 --> 00:27:27,312 Somebody called me and said, "Joe, he wasn't doing well." 389 00:27:27,938 --> 00:27:30,816 The question was, "Can you go see him? 390 00:27:32,484 --> 00:27:35,529 Not as a psychologist, but as a friend?" 391 00:27:38,365 --> 00:27:42,703 I did go down to the rectory where he was being housed. 392 00:27:45,706 --> 00:27:46,540 He looked sick. 393 00:27:48,542 --> 00:27:53,797 He was reading these papers that were accusing him of priest's abuse. 394 00:27:55,632 --> 00:27:58,260 The acts that were described on the papers were... 395 00:27:59,428 --> 00:28:00,387 I was in shock. 396 00:28:00,470 --> 00:28:06,143 I couldn't understand how anybody who was religious could do those things. 397 00:28:07,853 --> 00:28:12,107 This was atypical of my friend Joe, as I knew Joe. 398 00:28:19,448 --> 00:28:24,077 I remember asking him directly, "Joe, how could you do these things? 399 00:28:25,037 --> 00:28:27,372 How could you keep your silence with this? 400 00:28:27,456 --> 00:28:28,290 How could you?" 401 00:28:29,708 --> 00:28:32,628 He didn't answer and I said, "Do you think it's moral?" 402 00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:40,135 He told me that he thought it was moral 403 00:28:40,427 --> 00:28:43,096 because he was protecting the Church at the time. 404 00:28:45,766 --> 00:28:49,353 I think the worst moral thing for Joe 405 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:52,898 would have been to get the Church in some kind of problem. 406 00:28:54,566 --> 00:28:56,568 And that was the turning point for me. 407 00:28:58,028 --> 00:29:00,906 He was a very manipulative guy. 408 00:29:08,288 --> 00:29:09,665 Maskell's attorney, 409 00:29:09,748 --> 00:29:13,043 a man named Michael Lehane, was a friend of his. 410 00:29:13,627 --> 00:29:16,171 And when we would ask him where Maskell was, 411 00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:20,092 um, his response was that he had... He was living in Ireland. 412 00:29:21,551 --> 00:29:25,430 We have no idea what he was doing in Ireland, 413 00:29:25,514 --> 00:29:30,310 whether or not he was working in some sort of religious facility, 414 00:29:30,394 --> 00:29:32,604 whether he had access to children there. 415 00:29:34,147 --> 00:29:36,191 That's all a bit of a mystery. 416 00:29:37,317 --> 00:29:40,195 Today, in Baltimore, a pretrial hearing begins 417 00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:42,406 in the case against Father Joseph Maskell. 418 00:29:42,823 --> 00:29:45,075 The new memories are really key here. 419 00:29:45,158 --> 00:29:48,745 That's because the statute of limitations on alleged assaults 420 00:29:48,829 --> 00:29:52,874 that occurred more than 20 years ago has long since expired. 421 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,795 But if the judge accepts that the women only recently remembered 422 00:29:56,878 --> 00:29:58,463 other instances of abuse, 423 00:29:58,547 --> 00:30:01,591 he could clear the way for the case to go to trial. 424 00:30:01,675 --> 00:30:06,221 I think this was the first time anybody in Maryland delved into recovered memories. 425 00:30:07,681 --> 00:30:13,103 The concept of recovered memories came out in the '80s and were generally accepted. 426 00:30:14,813 --> 00:30:18,692 I think at the time we filed our suit in '94, 427 00:30:19,151 --> 00:30:21,361 28 states had ruled they were gonna allow 428 00:30:21,445 --> 00:30:23,697 recovered memory cases to go forward 429 00:30:24,239 --> 00:30:27,993 and only three states or something in that neighborhood had said no. 430 00:30:29,870 --> 00:30:34,499 However, in the '90s, there became a certain skepticism... 431 00:30:36,251 --> 00:30:39,588 What you're seeing is a therapy session of a young girl 432 00:30:40,005 --> 00:30:41,798 who remembered a gang rape. 433 00:30:42,049 --> 00:30:44,926 The only problem is they never really happened. 434 00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:49,056 She says these memories were pure figments of her imagination 435 00:30:49,139 --> 00:30:50,932 that her therapist helped her create. 436 00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:55,437 This past decade has seen a skyrocketing number of molestation claims. 437 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,649 Adult children holding the false belief that horrible sexual abuse 438 00:30:59,733 --> 00:31:01,360 occurred to them as children. 439 00:31:02,778 --> 00:31:05,364 You know, somebody may go to a therapist and say, 440 00:31:05,447 --> 00:31:08,492 "I have trouble with interpersonal relationships." 441 00:31:09,701 --> 00:31:11,370 They'll go, "Maybe you were abused," 442 00:31:11,453 --> 00:31:14,623 and so you start planting suggestive seeds, and then you... 443 00:31:14,706 --> 00:31:17,542 You fabricate an entire fact pattern 444 00:31:17,626 --> 00:31:22,339 to fit something that has no... veracity at all. 445 00:31:22,422 --> 00:31:26,343 And that hurt those people who really did have a memory 446 00:31:26,426 --> 00:31:29,262 that they had repressed and then recovered. 447 00:31:30,472 --> 00:31:34,476 Two decades ago, a former chaplain at Archbishop Keough High School, 448 00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:36,812 stands accused, but as John Riddell reports, 449 00:31:36,895 --> 00:31:40,941 today's hearing rekindled a debate over repressed memory. 450 00:31:41,024 --> 00:31:43,693 Today a psychiatrist testified that one of the women 451 00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:46,363 suffers from posttraumatic stress disorder. 452 00:31:46,905 --> 00:31:50,242 It is a medical condition in which painful memories of abuse 453 00:31:50,325 --> 00:31:52,160 are suppressed for years. 454 00:31:59,084 --> 00:32:00,001 Jane Doe... 455 00:32:01,586 --> 00:32:05,173 her lawyers wrote and asked me to consult with her. 456 00:32:08,343 --> 00:32:11,513 You have to say, is this person credible or not credible? 457 00:32:12,681 --> 00:32:15,684 I did interview her, talked to her. 458 00:32:16,726 --> 00:32:17,686 And I believed her. 459 00:32:19,813 --> 00:32:21,982 There are things that have the ring of truth, 460 00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:24,818 even if they're hard to believe. 461 00:32:25,652 --> 00:32:28,864 And, uh... she was believable to me. 462 00:32:31,241 --> 00:32:32,576 Thanks, heaps. 463 00:32:33,577 --> 00:32:36,371 The defense, they brought in Paul McHugh, 464 00:32:36,455 --> 00:32:39,166 who is a heavy hitter to bring into a courtroom. 465 00:32:39,249 --> 00:32:40,542 Can you hear me, by the way? 466 00:32:41,251 --> 00:32:43,086 Is my voice, uh, carrying? 467 00:32:43,628 --> 00:32:46,381 My voice, my mother used to say, shatters glass. 468 00:32:46,465 --> 00:32:47,716 So, usually... 469 00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:50,260 I mean... And he is a giant in the field. 470 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,182 In this arena, uh, of the false memory phenomenon 471 00:32:55,265 --> 00:32:58,435 and the false memory syndrome, and the recovered memory business, 472 00:32:58,518 --> 00:33:03,273 I believe... firmly, that these are artifacts, 473 00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:04,900 these are artificial productions. 474 00:33:05,817 --> 00:33:09,863 And it's very important that we, uh... we don't equivocate on this matter. 475 00:33:11,198 --> 00:33:13,408 Paul McHugh is always on the Church side. 476 00:33:14,701 --> 00:33:16,786 He... He is a professional Catholic. 477 00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:19,498 He's a man of high reputation. 478 00:33:19,581 --> 00:33:24,920 And he gets picked as Mister Catholic Psychiatrist. 479 00:33:27,672 --> 00:33:31,051 I was on the staff of Hopkins at that time. 480 00:33:31,885 --> 00:33:33,303 Yeah, we were colleagues. 481 00:33:33,386 --> 00:33:37,682 He asked me specifically about the case with Jane Doe... 482 00:33:38,183 --> 00:33:39,601 and what I thought. 483 00:33:41,895 --> 00:33:47,150 Part of all of the controversy around sexual abuse of minors... 484 00:33:47,817 --> 00:33:51,029 has to do with the understanding of trauma. 485 00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:55,659 Some things we experience are so unbearable and so painful, 486 00:33:56,451 --> 00:33:58,954 that we shut them out. 487 00:33:59,496 --> 00:34:01,998 The major systems for protection of the self, 488 00:34:02,082 --> 00:34:05,043 the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal fight-flight response, 489 00:34:05,126 --> 00:34:07,629 the vagal response, to play dead, to dissociate, 490 00:34:08,088 --> 00:34:10,632 to be, um... unaware of something, 491 00:34:10,924 --> 00:34:12,551 they'll come right into play. 492 00:34:13,134 --> 00:34:16,763 In order to pro... protect the self from harm. 493 00:34:17,097 --> 00:34:20,392 Naturally, we know so much more about this 494 00:34:20,725 --> 00:34:24,813 because of men and women coming home from war 495 00:34:25,313 --> 00:34:28,525 and being traumatized and, uh... 496 00:34:28,608 --> 00:34:33,947 We have all sorts of knowledge now about how the person handles those, 497 00:34:35,282 --> 00:34:36,866 how the brain handles those. 498 00:34:38,618 --> 00:34:41,788 So, I told McHugh that, yes, I... I believed her story. 499 00:34:44,541 --> 00:34:46,960 And he dismissed the whole thing... 500 00:34:47,711 --> 00:34:51,423 because he dismissed what he called false memory, 501 00:34:52,048 --> 00:34:53,842 and he felt that that was all... 502 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:56,595 made up. 503 00:35:04,519 --> 00:35:07,606 In my mind he has a blind spot, 504 00:35:09,399 --> 00:35:12,527 and I will say that with all due deference 505 00:35:12,819 --> 00:35:15,655 when you're criticizing somebody who's that powerful. 506 00:35:18,908 --> 00:35:25,790 The defense, they never had an expert actually examine our clients. 507 00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:30,545 Dr. McHugh, he just basically poo-pooed the whole idea 508 00:35:30,629 --> 00:35:32,797 of repressed memory and recovering memories. 509 00:35:32,881 --> 00:35:35,717 Somebody is always saying, "Well, you haven't seen everybody." 510 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,302 I say, "No, I haven't seen everybody." 511 00:35:37,385 --> 00:35:40,597 But then again, I haven't been at the upper tributaries of the Amazon 512 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,515 where there may be a unicorn after all. 513 00:35:44,726 --> 00:35:46,603 Uh, there may be one out there. 514 00:35:59,574 --> 00:36:01,576 It's been a real battle of the experts today 515 00:36:01,660 --> 00:36:03,495 on the case of repressed memory. 516 00:36:03,578 --> 00:36:07,040 And now, the judge will hear testimony from the alleged victims themselves. 517 00:36:11,378 --> 00:36:16,925 Going to court for the hearing was, um, terrifying for me. 518 00:36:18,051 --> 00:36:20,053 I knew it was gonna be open court. 519 00:36:20,804 --> 00:36:25,558 My husband Randy had one arm and my brother Mark had the other arm, 520 00:36:25,642 --> 00:36:28,728 and they would escort me into the courthouse to... 521 00:36:28,812 --> 00:36:30,105 To make me feel safe. 522 00:36:31,815 --> 00:36:34,734 The feeling that I had when I walked into that courtroom... 523 00:36:35,443 --> 00:36:38,196 I was ready to be devoured. 524 00:36:38,279 --> 00:36:40,949 There is really no demonstrated scientific validity 525 00:36:41,032 --> 00:36:45,120 to the theory of repressed memory. Whether an event occurred, 526 00:36:45,203 --> 00:36:47,706 whether an individual's description of that event is reliable... 527 00:36:47,789 --> 00:36:51,626 Each and every one of those witnesses will be subjected to investigation 528 00:36:51,710 --> 00:36:53,378 and rigorous cross-examination. 529 00:36:53,461 --> 00:36:56,297 The credibility of their story will be very much an issue. 530 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,595 I was scared of the lawyers at that point. I couldn't even look at them. 531 00:37:04,305 --> 00:37:07,559 And my lawyers decided 532 00:37:08,226 --> 00:37:10,854 that I would just look at the judge 533 00:37:11,104 --> 00:37:13,982 and not look at the lawyers as they questioned me. 534 00:37:17,777 --> 00:37:20,989 It was, like, so many thoughts going through my head... 535 00:37:21,072 --> 00:37:24,951 but I just took the stand and... And they questioned me. 536 00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:32,041 And one of the lawyers said, "I request that this plaintiff looks at me 537 00:37:32,125 --> 00:37:34,043 while I'm asking her questions." 538 00:37:36,212 --> 00:37:38,798 It felt as if at some point... 539 00:37:39,549 --> 00:37:42,427 that terrible terror of doing this... 540 00:37:43,386 --> 00:37:46,473 s... turned into something else. 541 00:37:47,390 --> 00:37:50,101 I just turned, I stared him right in the eyes. 542 00:37:50,185 --> 00:37:52,145 It was this feeling of... 543 00:37:53,271 --> 00:37:54,981 "Go ahead, ask me your questions." 544 00:37:57,525 --> 00:37:58,985 It was very brutal. 545 00:37:59,778 --> 00:38:03,823 They asked about the actual sexual acts. 546 00:38:04,407 --> 00:38:08,328 I mean, after a while, I got to the point where, "I don't give a damn. 547 00:38:08,411 --> 00:38:10,914 You ask me anything you want because this happened, 548 00:38:10,997 --> 00:38:14,209 and now the world's hearing it and that's a good thing." 549 00:38:15,877 --> 00:38:18,797 Mike said to me later, he was in, like, the front row. 550 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,715 And later... That's all he said to people. 551 00:38:20,799 --> 00:38:25,220 He said, "I was so proud of her when she just turned her head 552 00:38:25,303 --> 00:38:29,557 and looked right at him, like, "Go on, ask me your questions." 553 00:38:29,808 --> 00:38:32,310 And probably inside what I was really thinking is, 554 00:38:32,393 --> 00:38:35,104 "Let's get this over with 'cause I gotta get out of here." 555 00:38:35,188 --> 00:38:36,564 You know? I mean, it's, like... 556 00:38:36,648 --> 00:38:40,068 But it was that feeling, like, "I can do this." 557 00:38:41,152 --> 00:38:43,655 According to Jane Doe, who testified yesterday, 558 00:38:43,738 --> 00:38:46,991 not only was she raped by Maskell, she also recalled an incident 559 00:38:47,075 --> 00:38:50,370 when Maskell allegedly took her to see the body of Sister Cathy Cesnik, 560 00:38:50,453 --> 00:38:55,208 a nun, whom she said she confided in and whose murder remains unsolved today. 561 00:38:56,084 --> 00:38:59,838 Now, police did interview that woman about the murder of Sister Cathy Cesnik 562 00:38:59,921 --> 00:39:03,091 and they believe that she is not connected in any way to the murder. 563 00:39:03,174 --> 00:39:06,553 They do not believe that what she saw really was the body. 564 00:39:06,636 --> 00:39:08,471 So, that crime really remains unsolved. 565 00:39:08,555 --> 00:39:11,140 However, the sexual abuse suits against the archdiocese... 566 00:39:13,768 --> 00:39:15,645 The top one is my credentials. 567 00:39:16,354 --> 00:39:17,188 My badge. 568 00:39:20,108 --> 00:39:21,317 Here's my retirement. 569 00:39:22,402 --> 00:39:26,281 Summation on my 38 years in Baltimore County Police. 570 00:39:27,115 --> 00:39:30,410 Came on in 1955 and then retired in '92. 571 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,206 When the rumors started circulating in the 1990s 572 00:39:35,290 --> 00:39:37,417 about the sexual abuse at Keough, 573 00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:39,711 what was your personal reaction to that? 574 00:39:40,670 --> 00:39:42,213 I find it hard to believe. 575 00:39:43,464 --> 00:39:47,468 In our society, they go for the deep pockets. 576 00:39:48,052 --> 00:39:51,055 And once you open the door, a flood could come in. 577 00:39:52,265 --> 00:39:53,683 I would say, prove it to me. 578 00:39:55,643 --> 00:39:56,477 Not... 579 00:39:57,103 --> 00:39:58,646 Not with recalled memory. 580 00:39:59,439 --> 00:40:00,315 With facts. 581 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:05,945 Beyond a shadow of a doubt. 582 00:40:08,615 --> 00:40:13,119 Did you ever have the opportunity to talk with Maskell after it happened? 583 00:40:13,202 --> 00:40:15,121 After she was murdered? 584 00:40:15,413 --> 00:40:17,582 No. Like, guy-to-guy? 585 00:40:18,207 --> 00:40:20,168 Would you say you had a good relationship? 586 00:40:20,251 --> 00:40:21,419 I would say so. Yeah. 587 00:40:21,502 --> 00:40:25,423 I was just curious 'cause he seemed to be so involved with the police all the time. 588 00:40:25,590 --> 00:40:27,800 He had a brother with the police department. 589 00:40:27,884 --> 00:40:29,135 Right. Yeah. 590 00:40:29,969 --> 00:40:31,763 When Cathy's body was found... 591 00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:36,309 James Scannell was the first officer on the scene. 592 00:40:38,770 --> 00:40:42,899 I don't really think he sees any connection between Cathy's death 593 00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:44,609 and the abuse at Keough. 594 00:40:45,151 --> 00:40:47,445 Plus, he was a personal friend of Maskell's. 595 00:40:47,528 --> 00:40:50,031 So, he clearly saw a different side of the man... 596 00:40:50,114 --> 00:40:51,866 Mm-hm. ...than others did. 597 00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:53,993 Joe Maskell. 598 00:40:56,621 --> 00:40:58,247 He was a friend and fellow officer. 599 00:40:59,290 --> 00:41:02,919 He was the chaplain of Baltimore County, state police, 600 00:41:04,003 --> 00:41:05,254 and the Air National Guard. 601 00:41:06,047 --> 00:41:07,298 Yeah. 602 00:41:08,174 --> 00:41:09,717 He used to come in ride-alongs. 603 00:41:10,301 --> 00:41:13,471 He used to come down and I'd let him shoot when I was working. 604 00:41:14,138 --> 00:41:15,807 We'd have a little target practice. 605 00:41:17,642 --> 00:41:18,476 I know he... 606 00:41:19,060 --> 00:41:20,895 He had a friend in Dundalk. 607 00:41:21,521 --> 00:41:23,022 He went out on a boat with him. 608 00:41:24,148 --> 00:41:27,068 In fact, I fished with him on a couple occasions. 609 00:41:29,278 --> 00:41:32,240 So, when he has only good things to say about Maskell, 610 00:41:32,448 --> 00:41:37,912 I think, "Was Maskell able to have such a dual-sided personality 611 00:41:37,996 --> 00:41:40,915 that he could consistently flip to be charming?" 612 00:41:41,249 --> 00:41:43,710 Or this guy must have seen the other side of him. 613 00:41:44,961 --> 00:41:47,088 He wasn't... He wasn't a typical... 614 00:41:47,755 --> 00:41:48,756 you know, saint. 615 00:41:50,049 --> 00:41:51,426 I know if I got in a fight... 616 00:41:51,926 --> 00:41:55,805 and he was riding with me as a chaplain, he'd be there by my side. 617 00:41:56,723 --> 00:41:57,557 And, uh... 618 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,476 That's the type of individual he was. 619 00:42:01,436 --> 00:42:04,939 He's a priest, but I think he really wanted to be a police like his brother. 620 00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:07,066 He was just like... 621 00:42:07,775 --> 00:42:09,736 any other member of the police force to me. 622 00:42:10,945 --> 00:42:13,531 Maybe he was a good guy and had nothing to do with this. 623 00:42:13,614 --> 00:42:15,742 They had some beers, went out and fished. 624 00:42:16,242 --> 00:42:17,660 And that was the extent of it. 625 00:42:17,744 --> 00:42:19,662 Um... I don't... I don't know. 626 00:42:22,623 --> 00:42:24,667 I don't think his name ever come up... 627 00:42:24,792 --> 00:42:27,003 until all that recalled memory come about. 628 00:42:28,963 --> 00:42:31,758 And, uh... that's when Maskell's name... 629 00:42:31,841 --> 00:42:34,677 That's when I started getting inquiries... 630 00:42:35,011 --> 00:42:37,096 about Sister Cesnik. 631 00:42:39,182 --> 00:42:41,934 But, you know, I... I tried to be objective on... 632 00:42:42,018 --> 00:42:43,478 I think like a police. 633 00:42:47,607 --> 00:42:49,108 If I thought it was him... 634 00:42:50,109 --> 00:42:51,736 he wouldn't have been walking free. 635 00:42:52,987 --> 00:42:56,240 Because... I would've did what I was supposed to do. 636 00:43:10,338 --> 00:43:12,256 At the time we filed our suit, 637 00:43:12,590 --> 00:43:15,176 Archbishop Keeler was up to become a cardinal. 638 00:43:17,220 --> 00:43:21,808 And we used to say this could interfere with Keeler getting his red hat. 639 00:43:22,809 --> 00:43:24,811 This was real bad timing for him. 640 00:43:24,894 --> 00:43:27,980 Catholic bishops from across the country are meeting in Washington. 641 00:43:28,064 --> 00:43:31,818 They're talking some explosive issues like pedophile priests. 642 00:43:31,901 --> 00:43:36,072 The bishops' committee has recommended the needs of victims should come first. 643 00:43:36,155 --> 00:43:38,241 Abuse victims are pleased with the statement, 644 00:43:38,324 --> 00:43:42,286 but say the Catholic Church is notorious for saying one thing and doing another. 645 00:43:44,705 --> 00:43:46,833 The pope was supposed to come to town. 646 00:43:48,793 --> 00:43:52,713 And I thought it was really neat that our hearing came up 647 00:43:52,797 --> 00:43:54,549 right in the spring there, 648 00:43:54,966 --> 00:43:59,095 and that, um, people were interested. People wanted to know what this was about. 649 00:44:00,888 --> 00:44:05,810 I wanted to blow this thing wide open and say this has got to stop. 650 00:44:06,811 --> 00:44:10,106 Today in Baltimore, Judge Hilary Caplan is expected to rule 651 00:44:10,189 --> 00:44:13,067 in the Jane Doe lawsuit against Father Joseph Maskell. 652 00:44:13,776 --> 00:44:17,613 When... When we filed our lawsuit, we felt like if we could get to... 653 00:44:17,697 --> 00:44:20,783 If we could get our case to a jury and we could march in 654 00:44:20,867 --> 00:44:24,412 witness after witness after witness after witness after witness, 655 00:44:24,537 --> 00:44:28,624 that we had a very good chance of having a favorable result. 656 00:44:34,297 --> 00:44:35,798 And we never got there. 657 00:44:37,091 --> 00:44:41,220 Their request to file a $40 million civil suit has been denied. 658 00:44:41,304 --> 00:44:44,599 Judge Hilary Caplan ruled the case did not meet criteria 659 00:44:44,682 --> 00:44:48,311 for waiving the three-year statute of limitations for such suits. 660 00:44:50,897 --> 00:44:52,565 So, I think we have, um, 661 00:44:52,648 --> 00:44:56,485 the two plaintiffs who are very confused, very disturbed, 662 00:44:56,569 --> 00:44:59,155 and who have brought this action, um, 663 00:44:59,238 --> 00:45:03,826 not out of malice, but, uh, out of confusion, distortion. 664 00:45:04,410 --> 00:45:07,705 And, uh, I think it's appropriate for the court to dismiss this case 665 00:45:07,788 --> 00:45:09,165 under the circumstances. 666 00:45:10,249 --> 00:45:14,962 But how can one reasonably expect a witness in a... a case of this type 667 00:45:15,046 --> 00:45:19,800 to testify to events that took place 20 to 25 years ago with accuracy? 668 00:45:20,593 --> 00:45:22,845 We never got our day in court. 669 00:45:23,346 --> 00:45:26,724 Losing on the statute of limitations was a technicality 670 00:45:27,266 --> 00:45:30,394 that the Church ran with and got this thing thrown out. 671 00:45:32,688 --> 00:45:36,692 The judge at the time said, "Let the chips fall where they may, 672 00:45:36,776 --> 00:45:40,988 but the statute holds and these women came too late." 673 00:45:43,699 --> 00:45:47,245 The Archdiocese and the Catholic Church are a business. 674 00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:51,749 It was all about making these women who were damaged 675 00:45:51,832 --> 00:45:54,752 look... uncredible. 676 00:45:58,839 --> 00:46:00,800 Archbishop Keeler got his red hat. 677 00:46:05,554 --> 00:46:07,598 They're still down on Cathedral Street. 678 00:46:11,143 --> 00:46:12,186 Life goes on. 679 00:46:14,730 --> 00:46:17,566 It's just that we now know so much more about memory. 680 00:46:18,901 --> 00:46:23,155 It's scientifically accepted that memories can be compartmentalized 681 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,283 and... And not known to the conscious ego. 682 00:46:27,243 --> 00:46:31,330 I think Jane Doe was a victim of bad timing. 683 00:46:32,331 --> 00:46:35,251 And Paul McHugh, or any of us, 684 00:46:35,334 --> 00:46:38,879 who used our blind spots in the judgments of others... 685 00:46:39,839 --> 00:46:41,465 can certainly do harm. 686 00:46:45,094 --> 00:46:47,138 I felt like I wish I had never done that. 687 00:46:49,306 --> 00:46:51,517 Because everything that I originally thought 688 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,229 when I took the first step, now I've lost everything. 689 00:46:57,398 --> 00:46:58,733 I lost my faith. 690 00:46:59,859 --> 00:47:02,486 I lost a sense of where I belonged. 691 00:47:04,196 --> 00:47:08,784 And my family, it was like they were excommunicated. 692 00:47:08,868 --> 00:47:10,828 You know, as if it were like... 693 00:47:11,996 --> 00:47:13,414 someone cut a cord. 694 00:47:14,999 --> 00:47:17,960 I felt that the Church was saying 695 00:47:18,252 --> 00:47:20,546 that I should never have opened my damn mouth, 696 00:47:22,173 --> 00:47:24,633 that I was supposed to keep the secret, 697 00:47:24,717 --> 00:47:27,470 that I was supposed to stay silent. 698 00:47:29,930 --> 00:47:32,224 And that's what I did... 699 00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:34,518 until now... 700 00:47:36,562 --> 00:47:37,688 20-some years later. 701 00:47:55,998 --> 00:47:59,502 Hi. How are you? Hello, dear. Good to see you. 702 00:47:59,585 --> 00:48:00,795 Good. You, too. 703 00:48:02,546 --> 00:48:03,881 So, the reunion was fun. 704 00:48:04,423 --> 00:48:06,801 We had the Archbishop Keough 45th Reunion. 705 00:48:06,884 --> 00:48:08,469 Oh, I didn't go to that one, yeah. 706 00:48:08,552 --> 00:48:09,553 On Saturday. 707 00:48:10,930 --> 00:48:13,057 You said you talked to a couple survivors? 708 00:48:13,140 --> 00:48:14,600 Yup. That you knew or they...? 709 00:48:14,683 --> 00:48:16,769 That we know. Yeah, that we know. Okay. 710 00:48:16,852 --> 00:48:21,065 Statistics say only three to five percent of abuse victims will ever talk of it. 711 00:48:21,148 --> 00:48:23,567 They're more likely to talk of it as they get older... 712 00:48:23,651 --> 00:48:25,069 That many in their 40s 713 00:48:25,486 --> 00:48:29,740 begin to have more psychological difficulties ignoring it. 714 00:48:30,241 --> 00:48:31,242 So, we don't know... 715 00:48:32,326 --> 00:48:37,623 how many students in total he had inappropriate contact with. 716 00:48:38,124 --> 00:48:40,918 Um, we know the amount... The number that have come forward. 717 00:48:41,001 --> 00:48:44,296 We're sure there are more out there. But they are still coming forward. 718 00:48:44,380 --> 00:48:46,924 People are hearing through alumni meetings 719 00:48:47,007 --> 00:48:50,511 and applying to join the Facebook group and reaching out. 720 00:48:50,845 --> 00:48:53,556 They're not looking at this through a child's eyes anymore. 721 00:48:53,639 --> 00:48:56,058 They have wisdom, experience, families... Yeah. 722 00:48:56,142 --> 00:48:57,810 ...grandchildren, and they're like... 723 00:48:58,352 --> 00:49:00,146 They... They want their life back. 724 00:49:01,897 --> 00:49:05,985 In September of 2013, people wanted to talk about it more. 725 00:49:06,068 --> 00:49:07,778 Victims wanted to talk to each other, 726 00:49:07,862 --> 00:49:10,781 people who didn't know wanted to find out what had happened. 727 00:49:10,865 --> 00:49:14,160 So, we started the Justice for Catherine Cesnik and Joyce Malecki page. 728 00:49:15,286 --> 00:49:17,037 And it just sort of snowballed. 729 00:49:19,123 --> 00:49:21,750 The Facebook movement is a very grassroots movement 730 00:49:21,834 --> 00:49:25,421 that is led by some very strong women 731 00:49:25,504 --> 00:49:27,756 doing their own detective work, 732 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,467 doing the work that the police should have done. 733 00:49:32,469 --> 00:49:35,973 In 1994, Jane Doe and Jane Roe... 734 00:49:36,223 --> 00:49:40,769 I saw how they were shut down by everybody of authority. 735 00:49:42,021 --> 00:49:44,481 It's been so many years since that... 736 00:49:45,608 --> 00:49:49,445 Gemma and Abbie, they started that Facebook page 737 00:49:49,528 --> 00:49:51,614 and I think they got, uh... 738 00:49:53,115 --> 00:49:55,826 They got more than they bargained for, I think. 739 00:49:58,621 --> 00:50:00,998 It's not just the investigation. 740 00:50:02,166 --> 00:50:06,420 It's become a network for a lot of abuse survivors. 741 00:50:07,421 --> 00:50:09,840 Where before, everybody was separated and afraid, 742 00:50:10,633 --> 00:50:13,177 people are now talking together. 743 00:50:14,345 --> 00:50:18,474 And where something may have seemed insignificant at the time, 744 00:50:19,016 --> 00:50:20,601 um, has relevance now. 745 00:50:21,894 --> 00:50:27,900 I think it's very telling to see retired Keough grads in their 60s, 746 00:50:27,983 --> 00:50:31,028 a bunch of women getting together to try to solve this. 747 00:50:31,820 --> 00:50:37,243 Where... Where everyone else has failed us, they failed Sister Cathy. 748 00:50:38,118 --> 00:50:40,829 I want justice for all of this. 749 00:50:44,792 --> 00:50:48,921 Teresa Lancaster came forward on our Facebook page of survivors 750 00:50:49,004 --> 00:50:51,173 and said, "I'm Jane Roe." 751 00:50:51,966 --> 00:50:54,134 And the reaction she got was like... 752 00:50:54,218 --> 00:50:57,137 It brought tears to my eyes because all her friends 753 00:50:57,221 --> 00:51:01,058 just wrote, like, one-liners, like, "We had no idea." 754 00:51:01,141 --> 00:51:05,145 "Thank you for finding us." It just was overwhelming. 755 00:51:18,867 --> 00:51:20,661 After my lawsuit, 756 00:51:20,744 --> 00:51:24,999 I wanted to prove to myself that I did have a brain 757 00:51:25,249 --> 00:51:27,710 and that I could do something with my life. 758 00:51:28,377 --> 00:51:30,587 So, I went back to school. 759 00:51:34,717 --> 00:51:37,303 I made a little study for her down in the basement. 760 00:51:37,386 --> 00:51:38,762 There was a bed in there also. 761 00:51:38,846 --> 00:51:42,474 When it was before a big test, she would stay down there all night long 762 00:51:42,558 --> 00:51:45,477 and finally crawl into that bed and go to sleep maybe six in the morning. 763 00:51:46,145 --> 00:51:49,606 It was very impressive for someone to take courses that hard 764 00:51:49,690 --> 00:51:52,526 while she was raising four kids, cooking them dinner, 765 00:51:52,609 --> 00:51:53,777 tucking them in at night. 766 00:51:54,653 --> 00:51:57,948 In your middle or late 40s, that's not an easy thing to do. 767 00:52:00,117 --> 00:52:03,787 I became a lawyer when I was 49. 768 00:52:04,371 --> 00:52:06,915 Teresa wasn't doing all this to make a lot of money. 769 00:52:07,666 --> 00:52:10,169 She was doing all this to help people that needed help. 770 00:52:10,627 --> 00:52:11,628 ...peacefully. 771 00:52:11,712 --> 00:52:15,007 This is a much more aggressive tactic than the police used last night. 772 00:52:15,090 --> 00:52:16,925 And you can see one person, she... 773 00:52:17,009 --> 00:52:20,512 She engaged in this civil disobedience because it was... 774 00:52:20,596 --> 00:52:24,850 Over the past week, there's been protests going on in Baltimore 775 00:52:24,933 --> 00:52:29,938 to try to get to the bottom of how Freddie Gray was indeed murdered 776 00:52:30,022 --> 00:52:32,608 when he was taken by the police. 777 00:52:32,816 --> 00:52:35,402 Your neck just doesn't break by itself. 778 00:52:56,965 --> 00:52:58,967 I've lived in Baltimore all my life. 779 00:53:00,094 --> 00:53:03,097 I remember the riots of 1968. 780 00:53:04,223 --> 00:53:07,226 And still, there is no change. 781 00:53:09,144 --> 00:53:11,855 ...the result of something that would constitute a crime, 782 00:53:11,939 --> 00:53:13,315 then the people who did that... 783 00:53:13,399 --> 00:53:16,610 Last year, I represented a young black boy 784 00:53:16,693 --> 00:53:20,614 who was just shuffling his pockets around on the corner 785 00:53:20,697 --> 00:53:23,409 and he got arrested for drugs. 786 00:53:24,284 --> 00:53:27,413 I realized that there's a lot of people in the police department 787 00:53:27,496 --> 00:53:29,915 that are good and are laying their lives on the line, 788 00:53:29,998 --> 00:53:32,084 and I very much thank them for that. 789 00:53:33,544 --> 00:53:36,380 But all he had in his pocket was some change. 790 00:53:38,257 --> 00:53:40,968 I did get that thrown out, but I told him, 791 00:53:41,051 --> 00:53:44,221 you have to stay off the corners in Baltimore 792 00:53:44,304 --> 00:53:46,390 and not look suspicious. 793 00:53:46,473 --> 00:53:50,310 And... And how do you explain that to a young... a young boy, 794 00:53:50,394 --> 00:53:55,524 not to look suspicious, you know? It's just really not fair at all. 795 00:53:58,444 --> 00:53:59,445 We're tired of this. 796 00:54:00,737 --> 00:54:02,197 We're tired of the brutalities. 797 00:54:02,281 --> 00:54:04,908 We're tired of the pains. We are tired of the lies. 798 00:54:04,992 --> 00:54:06,118 We want the truth. 799 00:54:06,618 --> 00:54:10,247 Y'all don't understand? Y'all don't hear our voice? We are tired. 800 00:54:13,625 --> 00:54:14,877 Where is the justice? 801 00:54:53,081 --> 00:54:59,213 See, I didn't know who Jane Doe was before this past year. 802 00:55:01,215 --> 00:55:03,300 I have not spent time with her. 803 00:55:04,468 --> 00:55:06,929 She is not one to seek the spotlight. 804 00:55:07,513 --> 00:55:09,973 I don't think she would be really comfortable... 805 00:55:10,891 --> 00:55:15,646 spearheading a movement to... to find Sister Cathy's killer. 806 00:55:17,189 --> 00:55:21,109 But Jane is the link between Joseph Maskell, 807 00:55:21,193 --> 00:55:24,780 the abuse at Keough, and Cathy Cesnik's murder. 808 00:55:26,073 --> 00:55:27,616 This is really her story. 809 00:55:36,291 --> 00:55:40,420 When the Facebook group started, when the two ladies decided 810 00:55:40,504 --> 00:55:43,257 they were just going to start a conversation 811 00:55:43,340 --> 00:55:45,551 about the death of Cathy Cesnik... 812 00:55:47,302 --> 00:55:48,887 I waited. 813 00:55:52,391 --> 00:55:57,104 Back in 1992, '93, I was using my voice and I thought it was going somewhere. 814 00:55:59,690 --> 00:56:01,900 And instead, they silenced it. 815 00:56:06,989 --> 00:56:11,076 I've never been a part of the Justice for Cathy Facebook group. 816 00:56:12,452 --> 00:56:17,541 Even though it's a positive, legitimizing community, 817 00:56:18,458 --> 00:56:21,211 I'm actually very scared to be in that conversation. 818 00:56:22,546 --> 00:56:26,466 Because I don't remember a whole lot about the other classmates. 819 00:56:29,595 --> 00:56:34,182 I'm afraid someone will remember something about me that I don't remember. 820 00:56:39,771 --> 00:56:43,442 And there's an awful lot that I still don't remember. 821 00:56:51,825 --> 00:56:53,827 You know, when you go back to that question: 822 00:56:53,910 --> 00:56:55,370 "Why didn't you tell somebody?" 823 00:56:58,165 --> 00:57:02,252 I probably have beaten myself up on some level for a very long time... 824 00:57:02,836 --> 00:57:04,212 that I didn't. 825 00:57:07,841 --> 00:57:11,928 I never wanted to look at what I did when I was 16, 17 in the senior year. 826 00:57:12,846 --> 00:57:16,391 I never wanted to look at what I did after Cathy was killed. 827 00:57:19,353 --> 00:57:24,566 I often wonder what was Maskell doing that he would let me leave that school 828 00:57:24,650 --> 00:57:26,777 and believe that I would never say anything? 829 00:57:26,860 --> 00:57:31,949 That... That wasn't just... I repressed it. I think some of it was purposely done. 830 00:57:39,081 --> 00:57:44,503 There is one memory I can't look at. 831 00:57:46,797 --> 00:57:50,050 One person I don't wanna go anywhere near. 832 00:58:12,155 --> 00:58:16,159 Brother Bob was a man who had been in the room before. 833 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,958 He was the one that Maskell needed to keep... Keep reining him in. 834 00:58:26,586 --> 00:58:28,547 So Maskell leaves the room. 835 00:58:30,590 --> 00:58:33,051 My protector standing by the door was gone. 836 00:58:35,637 --> 00:58:41,226 And Brother Bob, he proceeds to tell me that, um... 837 00:58:42,227 --> 00:58:44,104 That he killed Cathy Cesnik, 838 00:58:44,646 --> 00:58:45,856 that he didn't want to. 839 00:58:46,606 --> 00:58:48,859 But she was gonna go to the police. 840 00:58:50,736 --> 00:58:54,781 And he tells me it's my fault that she is dead, 841 00:58:55,490 --> 00:58:58,160 that she was the good person, I was not. 842 00:58:59,828 --> 00:59:01,204 And it should've been me. 843 00:59:04,082 --> 00:59:07,711 And, so, then he rapes me and Maskell comes in. 844 00:59:08,378 --> 00:59:11,923 Then he says to Brother Bob, "Well, did you take care of it? 845 00:59:12,007 --> 00:59:14,301 Is she going to stay quiet?" 846 00:59:14,885 --> 00:59:18,346 And he says, "Yes, she's not gonna tell anybody anything." 847 00:59:22,100 --> 00:59:26,688 And to this day, I'm more terrified of Brother Bob 848 00:59:27,397 --> 00:59:30,650 than I have ever been of Joseph Maskell, 849 00:59:32,903 --> 00:59:35,781 because I don't know who this Brother Bob is. 850 00:59:37,574 --> 00:59:40,577 I don't remember the man's face. 851 00:59:43,997 --> 00:59:47,042 And I have no idea if he's still out there and alive. 852 00:59:52,547 --> 00:59:56,426 The mystery of Brother Bob looms large. 853 00:59:57,260 --> 00:59:58,428 I do believe she... 854 00:59:59,012 --> 01:00:02,766 She knows more than she might even know she knows herself. 855 01:00:05,435 --> 01:00:07,562 Who killed Sister Cathy? 856 01:00:09,689 --> 01:00:11,983 Why Sister Cathy was killed. 857 01:00:14,069 --> 01:00:16,947 The key to the puzzle could be in the question: 858 01:00:18,115 --> 01:00:19,449 "Who is Brother Bob?"