1 00:00:01,784 --> 00:00:05,568 TINA: Neil was charismatic and witty. 2 00:00:05,601 --> 00:00:07,469 Just a nice, normal man. 3 00:00:11,740 --> 00:00:13,443 - That was the ruse. 4 00:00:13,476 --> 00:00:14,610 [dramatic music] 5 00:00:14,643 --> 00:00:16,945 NEIL: There's something very strange about this baby. 6 00:00:16,980 --> 00:00:17,780 You can keep the baby. 7 00:00:17,813 --> 00:00:19,681 Great for you. 8 00:00:19,715 --> 00:00:21,083 But it ain't mine, darling. 9 00:00:21,117 --> 00:00:22,684 It seriously, seriously isn't mine. 10 00:00:22,719 --> 00:00:24,820 ♪ ♪ 11 00:00:24,853 --> 00:00:28,958 - Tina was in absolute shock. 12 00:00:28,992 --> 00:00:31,760 - I've spoken to probably 200 people 13 00:00:31,793 --> 00:00:35,331 who Neil traumatized. 14 00:00:35,364 --> 00:00:36,398 ♪ ♪ 15 00:00:36,431 --> 00:00:40,202 I've had to pretty much talk girls off the ledge. 16 00:00:40,235 --> 00:00:42,972 - I didn't realize the gravity of the situation 17 00:00:43,005 --> 00:00:44,139 that I escaped from. 18 00:00:44,172 --> 00:00:46,041 - Everything he told me was a lie. 19 00:00:47,043 --> 00:00:48,744 - I've never seen anything as extreme as this. 20 00:00:48,777 --> 00:00:49,445 ♪ ♪ 21 00:00:55,617 --> 00:01:00,789 - [distorted] I would like him to suffer slowly, tortuously. 22 00:01:00,822 --> 00:01:02,625 - Someone really needs to stop him. 23 00:01:02,659 --> 00:01:07,429 ♪ ♪ 24 00:01:10,766 --> 00:01:12,668 [tense music] 25 00:01:12,702 --> 00:01:20,476 ♪ ♪ 26 00:01:22,744 --> 00:01:24,112 [soft music] 27 00:01:24,146 --> 00:01:26,416 ANDREA: I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, 28 00:01:26,449 --> 00:01:29,152 a show about the people we trust the most 29 00:01:29,184 --> 00:01:31,253 and the deceptions that change everything. 30 00:01:31,286 --> 00:01:34,456 Today I'm talking with Tina Maia, 31 00:01:34,489 --> 00:01:38,760 a strong, independent woman whose casual fling 32 00:01:38,795 --> 00:01:41,530 turned her world upside down. 33 00:01:41,563 --> 00:01:44,434 When she tried to understand what happened to her, 34 00:01:44,467 --> 00:01:47,170 she ended up forming a community of women 35 00:01:47,202 --> 00:01:50,706 that were all deceived by the same man. 36 00:01:50,739 --> 00:01:55,978 Can you talk a little bit about the scope of what Neil did? 37 00:01:56,012 --> 00:02:00,083 - He just hides behind being this normal guy. 38 00:02:00,115 --> 00:02:04,387 But his lies are so damaging. 39 00:02:04,420 --> 00:02:06,889 They're so eroding, and it's been going on 40 00:02:06,922 --> 00:02:08,791 for, like, 30-something years. 41 00:02:08,824 --> 00:02:10,393 - Wow. 42 00:02:10,425 --> 00:02:11,527 - There's a whole load of people that think, 43 00:02:11,561 --> 00:02:12,929 oh, well, you know, how did you go for that? 44 00:02:12,961 --> 00:02:14,731 But this is my truth. 45 00:02:14,764 --> 00:02:15,797 This is my story. 46 00:02:15,831 --> 00:02:18,735 [soft music] 47 00:02:18,768 --> 00:02:22,605 ♪ ♪ 48 00:02:22,637 --> 00:02:28,143 I was born in Tehran before the revolution in 1975, 49 00:02:28,177 --> 00:02:31,012 and things got a little real over there 50 00:02:31,047 --> 00:02:32,715 when I was quite young. 51 00:02:32,748 --> 00:02:34,349 So we moved back to the UK 52 00:02:34,382 --> 00:02:36,786 because my father was born there. 53 00:02:36,818 --> 00:02:38,721 [light music] 54 00:02:38,755 --> 00:02:40,255 ♪ ♪ 55 00:02:40,289 --> 00:02:43,059 I lived in a very nice place. 56 00:02:43,092 --> 00:02:44,793 I had great friends, good education. 57 00:02:44,827 --> 00:02:46,094 ♪ ♪ 58 00:02:46,128 --> 00:02:48,530 - Tina's full of life, carefree. 59 00:02:48,563 --> 00:02:50,465 ♪ ♪ 60 00:02:50,500 --> 00:02:53,568 TINA: After I graduated university, 61 00:02:53,603 --> 00:02:57,139 I was starting my career in the technology world, 62 00:02:57,172 --> 00:02:58,875 and I just sort of had to figure out 63 00:02:58,907 --> 00:03:00,543 what this internet was. 64 00:03:00,576 --> 00:03:01,443 [laughs] 65 00:03:01,476 --> 00:03:03,813 ANDREA: Tina ends up in New York City 66 00:03:03,846 --> 00:03:04,713 with a high-paying job, 67 00:03:04,746 --> 00:03:06,382 and she's there for about ten years. 68 00:03:06,414 --> 00:03:09,518 She gets married, has a baby, gets divorced. 69 00:03:09,552 --> 00:03:12,021 And then in 2015, she gets a great job offer in London, 70 00:03:12,054 --> 00:03:13,755 and she decides to move home. 71 00:03:13,789 --> 00:03:16,358 [soft music] 72 00:03:16,391 --> 00:03:19,829 - I was just sort of starting again, 73 00:03:19,862 --> 00:03:20,762 just me and my son, Leo. 74 00:03:20,797 --> 00:03:24,233 He was six. 75 00:03:24,266 --> 00:03:26,369 DEENA: She was working in e-commerce, 76 00:03:26,402 --> 00:03:30,739 and she was very business-minded. 77 00:03:30,773 --> 00:03:32,440 ♪ ♪ 78 00:03:32,474 --> 00:03:36,378 TINA: So it was very early 2016. 79 00:03:36,411 --> 00:03:39,382 I was at one of these conferences in London. 80 00:03:39,414 --> 00:03:42,485 I was speaking with a lot of people, 81 00:03:42,518 --> 00:03:48,724 and that's where I stumbled across Neil Lawman. 82 00:03:48,757 --> 00:03:50,092 [light music] 83 00:03:50,126 --> 00:03:54,963 He had a marketing firm. 84 00:03:54,996 --> 00:03:56,364 He was cute, quite attractive. 85 00:03:56,398 --> 00:04:01,237 But I really didn't think too much about that conversation. 86 00:04:01,269 --> 00:04:04,239 He just seemed like a nice, normal man. 87 00:04:04,273 --> 00:04:06,641 ANDREA: Neil Lawman is from Essex. 88 00:04:06,675 --> 00:04:11,079 It's a tough, working class area outside of London. 89 00:04:11,112 --> 00:04:12,280 He's a successful businessman, 90 00:04:12,315 --> 00:04:14,516 and he even has an interesting hobby. 91 00:04:14,550 --> 00:04:17,420 He loves cooking and appears in YouTube videos. 92 00:04:17,452 --> 00:04:19,387 - If you cooked this, I'd actually 93 00:04:19,422 --> 00:04:22,090 come round for dinner and let you cook for me. 94 00:04:22,123 --> 00:04:23,659 - Would you spoon me afterwards? 95 00:04:23,693 --> 00:04:24,760 - Why not? 96 00:04:24,793 --> 00:04:27,362 - [laughs] 97 00:04:27,396 --> 00:04:29,998 - Tina had no desire for a relationship, 98 00:04:30,032 --> 00:04:31,099 but after the conference, 99 00:04:31,132 --> 00:04:32,934 Neil texted her out of the blue. 100 00:04:32,969 --> 00:04:34,436 [soft music] 101 00:04:34,469 --> 00:04:37,239 TINA: He said that he was going to be in Bromley, 102 00:04:37,273 --> 00:04:39,242 a town close to where I lived, 103 00:04:39,275 --> 00:04:42,577 and did I want to meet up? 104 00:04:42,612 --> 00:04:46,715 I was in a good mood, and Leo was at a sleepover, 105 00:04:46,748 --> 00:04:49,918 and Neil seems like he might be good fun for a drink. 106 00:04:49,952 --> 00:04:51,753 Um, OK. 107 00:04:51,786 --> 00:04:56,358 ♪ ♪ 108 00:04:56,391 --> 00:04:58,960 He was charismatic and witty. 109 00:04:58,994 --> 00:05:00,795 He was a fun guy. 110 00:05:00,829 --> 00:05:02,632 ♪ ♪ 111 00:05:02,664 --> 00:05:09,371 I told him a little bit about my divorce, 112 00:05:09,405 --> 00:05:13,275 and he said that he was divorced also, 113 00:05:13,309 --> 00:05:15,478 and they lived together in the States too. 114 00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:19,648 And he said that his ex-wife had got quite bitter 115 00:05:19,681 --> 00:05:21,784 about the fact that he couldn't give her children. 116 00:05:21,817 --> 00:05:25,186 ♪ ♪ 117 00:05:25,221 --> 00:05:27,289 He said, "I had testicular cancer, 118 00:05:27,322 --> 00:05:29,759 and I'm completely infertile." 119 00:05:29,791 --> 00:05:35,030 And he said his ex-wife had an affair with his friend 120 00:05:35,063 --> 00:05:36,565 and left him for the friend 121 00:05:36,599 --> 00:05:40,268 and gone on to have children with him. 122 00:05:40,302 --> 00:05:41,336 I felt like he was being, you know, 123 00:05:41,369 --> 00:05:44,106 quite vulnerable and genuine. 124 00:05:44,139 --> 00:05:47,610 It actually drew me to him. 125 00:05:47,643 --> 00:05:50,278 ANDREA: Tina starts seeing Neil more often. 126 00:05:50,313 --> 00:05:52,648 She still has no desire for a relationship, 127 00:05:52,681 --> 00:05:56,885 but she's having fun with him, and she's enjoying the sex. 128 00:05:56,918 --> 00:05:58,320 [uplifting music] 129 00:05:58,353 --> 00:06:01,056 TINA: That was part of what it was 130 00:06:01,090 --> 00:06:03,224 and part of what was fun. 131 00:06:03,259 --> 00:06:04,193 - She didn't need to live like a nun. 132 00:06:04,226 --> 00:06:05,927 They're two consenting adults. 133 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:07,797 Have fun. 134 00:06:07,829 --> 00:06:09,364 ♪ ♪ 135 00:06:09,398 --> 00:06:11,967 - Even though he told me he was infertile, 136 00:06:12,001 --> 00:06:14,336 I was still worried, 137 00:06:14,369 --> 00:06:16,672 because having another child was not in my plan. 138 00:06:16,706 --> 00:06:18,507 ♪ ♪ 139 00:06:18,541 --> 00:06:21,710 He was like, "No, like, I have zero sperm count." 140 00:06:21,744 --> 00:06:22,744 ♪ ♪ 141 00:06:22,777 --> 00:06:26,349 But he had sort of dropped into conversation 142 00:06:26,382 --> 00:06:28,483 about having a lot of allergies, 143 00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:31,320 and one of those allergies was latex, 144 00:06:31,353 --> 00:06:34,956 and so he couldn't use protection. 145 00:06:34,989 --> 00:06:36,391 ♪ ♪ 146 00:06:36,425 --> 00:06:38,260 ANDREA: Over the next few months, 147 00:06:38,293 --> 00:06:41,597 Tina sees Neil sporadically. 148 00:06:41,630 --> 00:06:44,500 TINA: We would see each other once a week or so. 149 00:06:44,532 --> 00:06:47,536 He told me a bit about his family. 150 00:06:47,570 --> 00:06:51,606 He didn't come from money, but I didn't care. 151 00:06:51,639 --> 00:06:56,411 - He came up in passing, some guy she'd been seeing. 152 00:06:56,445 --> 00:06:57,512 I never for a minute thought that he was 153 00:06:57,545 --> 00:06:58,981 going to play a part in her life. 154 00:06:59,014 --> 00:07:02,418 [tense music] 155 00:07:02,451 --> 00:07:04,954 - Tina started noticing things about Neil 156 00:07:04,987 --> 00:07:06,856 that were off-putting. 157 00:07:06,889 --> 00:07:10,358 TINA: I heard him have a phone conversation with his mother, 158 00:07:10,393 --> 00:07:13,094 and he was being so awful to her. 159 00:07:13,128 --> 00:07:15,831 And then there was the lying. 160 00:07:15,864 --> 00:07:17,432 ♪ ♪ 161 00:07:17,465 --> 00:07:20,536 He was clearly lying about his education. 162 00:07:20,568 --> 00:07:23,539 He told me he went to the London School of Economics. 163 00:07:23,572 --> 00:07:27,309 No, you didn't, because I know the area quite well. 164 00:07:27,342 --> 00:07:28,643 We were talking about it, 165 00:07:28,677 --> 00:07:31,847 and he didn't seem to know even where LSE was. 166 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,050 ♪ ♪ 167 00:07:34,083 --> 00:07:37,385 So it was these little things. 168 00:07:37,420 --> 00:07:38,653 ANDREA: Just as Tina's hoping 169 00:07:38,686 --> 00:07:41,356 that this relationship with Neil fades away, 170 00:07:41,389 --> 00:07:44,260 she starts to experience this familiar 171 00:07:44,293 --> 00:07:45,894 but concerning brain fog. 172 00:07:45,927 --> 00:07:48,431 ♪ ♪ 173 00:07:48,463 --> 00:07:52,934 - I started to be quite forgetful. 174 00:07:52,967 --> 00:07:55,371 ♪ ♪ 175 00:07:55,403 --> 00:07:57,472 I remember one particular incident 176 00:07:57,505 --> 00:08:00,242 where I threw the rubbish away, 177 00:08:00,275 --> 00:08:01,543 and then I couldn't find my keys. 178 00:08:01,577 --> 00:08:04,480 I'm like, did I not throw the rubbish out, 179 00:08:04,512 --> 00:08:06,181 but I threw my keys in the wheelie bin? 180 00:08:06,215 --> 00:08:08,516 ♪ ♪ 181 00:08:08,550 --> 00:08:11,454 Yes, I'd thrown my keys in the wheelie bin. 182 00:08:11,487 --> 00:08:14,322 And I said, that's weird, because the only time 183 00:08:14,356 --> 00:08:17,193 I've ever been that absent-minded 184 00:08:17,225 --> 00:08:19,828 is when I was pregnant with Leo. 185 00:08:19,862 --> 00:08:23,765 ♪ ♪ 186 00:08:23,798 --> 00:08:28,203 And then my period was late, so I got a pregnancy test. 187 00:08:28,237 --> 00:08:33,242 Immediately popped up: pregnant. 188 00:08:33,274 --> 00:08:34,710 ♪ ♪ 189 00:08:34,743 --> 00:08:36,979 I was like, well, no, I can't be pregnant. 190 00:08:37,011 --> 00:08:41,050 Bought a few more. 191 00:08:41,082 --> 00:08:42,818 That didn't work. 192 00:08:42,851 --> 00:08:44,252 ♪ ♪ 193 00:08:44,286 --> 00:08:46,287 I thought, Neil doesn't know 194 00:08:46,322 --> 00:08:48,724 he can have children. 195 00:08:48,756 --> 00:08:51,060 DEENA: I thought maybe it's a medical mistake 196 00:08:51,092 --> 00:08:53,996 or it was truly a miracle. 197 00:08:54,029 --> 00:08:57,666 ♪ ♪ 198 00:08:57,699 --> 00:09:00,168 - Tina decides to keep the baby and reaches out to Neil. 199 00:09:00,202 --> 00:09:01,837 [dramatic music] 200 00:09:01,871 --> 00:09:06,307 - And then he really got quite venomous. 201 00:09:06,341 --> 00:09:07,475 NEIL: I cannot produce children. 202 00:09:07,510 --> 00:09:10,479 If you are pregnant, 203 00:09:10,512 --> 00:09:12,247 how you deal with it is not my problem. 204 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,817 ♪ ♪ 205 00:09:20,523 --> 00:09:23,658 [tense music] 206 00:09:23,692 --> 00:09:25,728 - I had intercourse with somebody 207 00:09:25,761 --> 00:09:29,430 who I knew was infertile, 208 00:09:29,465 --> 00:09:32,001 and I was pregnant. 209 00:09:32,033 --> 00:09:34,770 ♪ ♪ 210 00:09:34,802 --> 00:09:39,207 So I sent him a text saying, 211 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,511 "We should meet up, and we can have a chat." 212 00:09:43,546 --> 00:09:44,845 He was like, "I don't see why-- 213 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:45,613 "if you've got something to tell me, 214 00:09:45,648 --> 00:09:46,782 why you can't tell me here." 215 00:09:46,814 --> 00:09:51,119 I'm like, "OK. I am pregnant. 216 00:09:51,153 --> 00:09:54,722 "It's yours. 217 00:09:54,756 --> 00:09:57,525 "I don't want anything from you, 218 00:09:57,560 --> 00:10:00,628 but I'm letting you know." 219 00:10:00,662 --> 00:10:02,664 He said, "Nice try. 220 00:10:02,698 --> 00:10:04,399 I had a vasectomy." 221 00:10:04,432 --> 00:10:05,833 ♪ ♪ 222 00:10:05,868 --> 00:10:09,604 And I sent him a picture of the pregnancy test, 223 00:10:09,637 --> 00:10:11,673 and I said, "Well, it didn't work." 224 00:10:11,707 --> 00:10:14,310 And he started leaving voice messages, 225 00:10:14,342 --> 00:10:18,413 which were insane. 226 00:10:18,447 --> 00:10:19,814 ♪ ♪ 227 00:10:19,847 --> 00:10:21,050 NEIL: You need to get yourself to a doctor 228 00:10:21,082 --> 00:10:23,385 and have a proper pregnancy test, 229 00:10:23,418 --> 00:10:25,386 not a piss-on-a-stick one. 230 00:10:25,421 --> 00:10:28,090 But I have zero sperm. 231 00:10:28,122 --> 00:10:30,893 Don't sit there putting things on me that this could be mine, 232 00:10:30,926 --> 00:10:35,698 because it isn't-- medically impossible. 233 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:36,599 TINA: It wasn't like he was like, 234 00:10:36,631 --> 00:10:39,601 "Oh, go and have an abortion." 235 00:10:39,635 --> 00:10:42,503 He just didn't want to be blamed. 236 00:10:42,537 --> 00:10:44,273 NEIL: You can keep the baby. 237 00:10:44,305 --> 00:10:45,573 Great for you. 238 00:10:45,608 --> 00:10:46,841 But it ain't mine, darling. 239 00:10:46,875 --> 00:10:49,078 It seriously, seriously isn't mine. 240 00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:50,479 ♪ ♪ 241 00:10:50,511 --> 00:10:52,948 TINA: He was just rude. 242 00:10:52,981 --> 00:10:55,717 NEIL: I will have nothing to do with you, 243 00:10:55,751 --> 00:10:58,520 nothing to do with your child. 244 00:10:58,554 --> 00:10:59,887 ♪ ♪ 245 00:10:59,921 --> 00:11:05,360 - I didn't expect him to be angry with me. 246 00:11:05,394 --> 00:11:09,698 - This man, who all his life thought he couldn't ever 247 00:11:09,731 --> 00:11:14,270 have children, why isn't he happy? 248 00:11:14,302 --> 00:11:17,206 [dramatic music] 249 00:11:17,238 --> 00:11:19,742 ♪ ♪ 250 00:11:19,774 --> 00:11:21,577 - It got really weird. 251 00:11:21,609 --> 00:11:23,912 ♪ ♪ 252 00:11:23,945 --> 00:11:26,814 So I just said, "You're more than welcome 253 00:11:26,849 --> 00:11:29,150 to take a DNA test when the baby's born." 254 00:11:29,184 --> 00:11:30,819 ♪ ♪ 255 00:11:30,853 --> 00:11:33,555 ANDREA: Neil refuses to do the DNA test, 256 00:11:33,588 --> 00:11:34,590 but Tina didn't need it. 257 00:11:34,622 --> 00:11:35,724 She knew he was the father. 258 00:11:35,757 --> 00:11:37,592 She hadn't been with anybody else. 259 00:11:37,626 --> 00:11:39,560 She just couldn't understand 260 00:11:39,595 --> 00:11:41,095 why he was adamantly denying it. 261 00:11:41,130 --> 00:11:41,930 ♪ ♪ 262 00:11:41,963 --> 00:11:44,198 But she moved on without Neil, 263 00:11:44,233 --> 00:11:47,735 and in January of 2017, Tina welcomed her baby girl, 264 00:11:47,770 --> 00:11:49,337 Josephine, and she calls her Fifi. 265 00:11:51,739 --> 00:11:54,542 TINA: When my daughter was born, 266 00:11:54,576 --> 00:11:57,313 she very quickly went blue. 267 00:11:57,345 --> 00:12:00,448 [solemn music] 268 00:12:00,481 --> 00:12:01,917 She had a lung infection. 269 00:12:01,949 --> 00:12:03,185 She was put into an incubator. 270 00:12:03,217 --> 00:12:05,587 She also had really serious jaundice. 271 00:12:05,621 --> 00:12:08,791 ♪ ♪ 272 00:12:08,823 --> 00:12:10,125 The treatment for the jaundice, 273 00:12:10,158 --> 00:12:13,862 the light treatment, wasn't working, 274 00:12:13,895 --> 00:12:15,064 and they said, "There's only one more level 275 00:12:15,096 --> 00:12:16,564 "we can go up before we have to give her 276 00:12:16,597 --> 00:12:18,100 "a blood transfusion. 277 00:12:18,132 --> 00:12:19,768 "Then we're gonna need blood types of the parents, 278 00:12:19,801 --> 00:12:22,003 any medical history." 279 00:12:22,037 --> 00:12:24,773 ANDREA: Tina was afraid for her baby's life. 280 00:12:24,806 --> 00:12:26,341 She hadn't spoken to Neil in months, 281 00:12:26,375 --> 00:12:28,543 but she had kept in touch with one of his friends, 282 00:12:28,577 --> 00:12:29,811 and she reached out to him 283 00:12:29,845 --> 00:12:32,146 to express the urgency of the situation. 284 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:36,484 - I suddenly get these long, nasty texts. 285 00:12:36,518 --> 00:12:38,619 [ominous music] 286 00:12:38,654 --> 00:12:41,856 How dare I contact his friend? 287 00:12:41,890 --> 00:12:45,860 Even if he did share DNA with my child, 288 00:12:45,894 --> 00:12:47,128 he would never want 289 00:12:47,162 --> 00:12:50,431 anything to do with someone as vile as me 290 00:12:50,466 --> 00:12:55,537 and that he would not be giving any medical history. 291 00:12:55,570 --> 00:12:56,704 ♪ ♪ 292 00:12:56,738 --> 00:12:59,207 Just ugly messages to someone 293 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,377 who had just given birth to his daughter, 294 00:13:01,409 --> 00:13:04,512 who was potentially about to have a blood transfusion. 295 00:13:04,546 --> 00:13:07,149 ♪ ♪ 296 00:13:07,181 --> 00:13:12,320 Any person would make that phone call to help any baby. 297 00:13:12,354 --> 00:13:14,989 Most people would do more than that to help a kitten. 298 00:13:15,023 --> 00:13:19,494 - This [bleep] is not helping. 299 00:13:19,528 --> 00:13:21,497 Why? 300 00:13:21,529 --> 00:13:24,365 [tense music] 301 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:27,136 TINA: Luckily, she didn't need the blood transfusion. 302 00:13:27,168 --> 00:13:29,337 The next level of lights did work. 303 00:13:29,371 --> 00:13:33,341 After a week in hospital, we were able to go home. 304 00:13:33,375 --> 00:13:34,643 [soft music] 305 00:13:34,676 --> 00:13:39,347 ♪ ♪ 306 00:13:39,381 --> 00:13:42,150 ANDREA: Tina and the baby are settling in nicely at home, 307 00:13:42,184 --> 00:13:45,287 but she can't let go of how Neil conducted himself, 308 00:13:45,319 --> 00:13:49,190 so she decides to take action against him. 309 00:13:49,224 --> 00:13:50,859 TINA: I thought, I'm gonna set the Child Maintenance Service 310 00:13:50,893 --> 00:13:52,493 onto you for the next 18 years. 311 00:13:52,528 --> 00:13:56,164 Not because I want the money, but because you deserve it. 312 00:13:56,198 --> 00:13:59,234 Because you're not a nice person. 313 00:13:59,268 --> 00:14:01,069 ANDREA: Tina submitted an application 314 00:14:01,103 --> 00:14:02,904 to the Child Maintenance Service, 315 00:14:02,938 --> 00:14:04,939 which is the UK's agency for child support. 316 00:14:04,972 --> 00:14:08,710 - Boy, did it open up a box of worms. 317 00:14:08,743 --> 00:14:10,112 ♪ ♪ 318 00:14:10,145 --> 00:14:12,280 TINA: When the report came through, 319 00:14:12,314 --> 00:14:14,315 it said that it had been accepted, 320 00:14:14,349 --> 00:14:19,121 and that he had been assessed 5 pounds a week 321 00:14:19,154 --> 00:14:21,222 because he was a benefits recipient, 322 00:14:21,256 --> 00:14:22,925 which was the first, like, what? 323 00:14:22,957 --> 00:14:26,028 Like, I know this guy has a business. 324 00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:28,963 But then the next really alarming thing 325 00:14:28,997 --> 00:14:32,835 was that that 5 pounds a week 326 00:14:32,868 --> 00:14:35,804 was split between four children. 327 00:14:35,837 --> 00:14:38,606 [dramatic music] 328 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,376 ANDREA: There were no names or details in the CMS report, 329 00:14:41,409 --> 00:14:45,479 so Tina decides to do her own investigation. 330 00:14:45,514 --> 00:14:48,250 TINA: The first thing I did was go to Facebook, 331 00:14:48,283 --> 00:14:52,320 and I look up Neil's last name, Lawman. 332 00:14:52,354 --> 00:14:55,990 Straight away, up comes a profile. 333 00:14:56,024 --> 00:14:59,027 I thought, well, this must be his ex-wife. 334 00:14:59,060 --> 00:15:02,197 Or his current wife. Who knows? 335 00:15:02,230 --> 00:15:06,335 Not in America, right here, not far from where I now live. 336 00:15:06,368 --> 00:15:10,771 And on the profile was a picture of two young girls. 337 00:15:10,805 --> 00:15:11,974 ♪ ♪ 338 00:15:12,006 --> 00:15:15,344 And they look like Fifi. 339 00:15:15,377 --> 00:15:17,880 ♪ ♪ 340 00:15:17,912 --> 00:15:20,349 I thought, shall I write to her? 341 00:15:20,381 --> 00:15:21,350 So I did. 342 00:15:21,382 --> 00:15:22,751 ♪ ♪ 343 00:15:22,783 --> 00:15:24,286 I said, "I just had a baby, 344 00:15:24,319 --> 00:15:26,287 and the father is Neil Lawman." 345 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:31,359 And quite quickly, she got back to me. 346 00:15:31,393 --> 00:15:35,096 The first line was just, "I am so sorry 347 00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:37,666 that you have also been his victim." 348 00:15:37,698 --> 00:15:38,766 I'm like, oh, [bleep]. 349 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,470 ♪ ♪ 350 00:15:49,912 --> 00:15:51,078 [tense music] 351 00:15:51,113 --> 00:15:54,448 - Tina reaches out to a woman on Facebook 352 00:15:54,483 --> 00:15:57,551 that has the same last name as Neil, which is Lawman. 353 00:15:57,586 --> 00:15:59,387 ♪ ♪ 354 00:15:59,421 --> 00:16:02,423 TINA: She wrote back, "Every word 355 00:16:02,457 --> 00:16:05,359 out of that man's mouth is a lie." 356 00:16:05,394 --> 00:16:09,197 And he'd gone and left her with nothing but a mess 357 00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:13,100 and his two children to raise. 358 00:16:13,135 --> 00:16:14,903 And she was clearly traumatized. 359 00:16:14,936 --> 00:16:19,140 ♪ ♪ 360 00:16:19,173 --> 00:16:21,042 - I used to be married to Neil. 361 00:16:21,076 --> 00:16:23,912 [solemn music] 362 00:16:23,945 --> 00:16:27,248 ♪ ♪ 363 00:16:27,282 --> 00:16:28,783 I chose to do this interview anonymously 364 00:16:28,817 --> 00:16:32,621 because I have two girls with Neil who are now grown up, 365 00:16:32,654 --> 00:16:36,958 and they don't want this to come back and haunt them. 366 00:16:36,992 --> 00:16:38,726 [dramatic music] 367 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:45,100 I would like Neil to suffer slowly, tortuously, 368 00:16:45,132 --> 00:16:46,001 and I'd like to witness it. 369 00:16:46,033 --> 00:16:51,672 ♪ ♪ 370 00:16:55,743 --> 00:17:00,047 Neil and I got married on August the 25th, 2002. 371 00:17:00,082 --> 00:17:01,015 [bell tolling] 372 00:17:01,048 --> 00:17:04,485 [soft music] 373 00:17:04,519 --> 00:17:08,222 We were together until November 2009 when he left. 374 00:17:08,256 --> 00:17:09,625 ANDREA: Neil's ex-wife, 375 00:17:09,658 --> 00:17:11,792 who doesn't want us to use her name, 376 00:17:11,827 --> 00:17:15,596 tells Tina that they've never lived in the United States. 377 00:17:15,631 --> 00:17:18,533 She did not leave Neil for his friend. 378 00:17:18,567 --> 00:17:21,636 He's definitely the father of her two kids. 379 00:17:21,670 --> 00:17:24,872 And he has never once mentioned having cancer. 380 00:17:26,475 --> 00:17:28,377 TINA: At this point, I realized that 381 00:17:28,409 --> 00:17:31,345 he had impregnated me maliciously. 382 00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:33,681 He knew what he was doing. 383 00:17:33,715 --> 00:17:35,149 NEIL'S EX-WIFE: I didn't really want 384 00:17:35,182 --> 00:17:36,318 to do this interview, 385 00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:38,787 but I can't bear the thought of him 386 00:17:38,819 --> 00:17:42,623 having any more children with some other unsuspecting victim. 387 00:17:44,326 --> 00:17:46,461 This is Neil's story to me, 388 00:17:46,494 --> 00:17:49,997 so it may have some degree of untruth. 389 00:17:50,032 --> 00:17:52,567 [tense music] 390 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,704 His mother had him when she was 16. 391 00:17:56,738 --> 00:18:00,175 She told him that his father was Kevin Jones, 392 00:18:00,207 --> 00:18:01,976 who she was then with. 393 00:18:02,010 --> 00:18:03,878 ♪ ♪ 394 00:18:03,912 --> 00:18:07,448 They sat Neil down on his 18th birthday and told him that 395 00:18:07,481 --> 00:18:08,884 Kevin Jones was not his father, 396 00:18:08,917 --> 00:18:10,985 and he had believed all that time that he was his father. 397 00:18:11,019 --> 00:18:12,953 ♪ ♪ 398 00:18:12,988 --> 00:18:15,724 Six months later, Kevin Jones died of a heart attack, 399 00:18:15,756 --> 00:18:18,760 and Neil doesn't know who his father is. 400 00:18:18,793 --> 00:18:21,896 But I can imagine that finding something out like that 401 00:18:21,930 --> 00:18:25,434 when you're 18 probably could have contributed to 402 00:18:25,466 --> 00:18:28,603 his dysfunctional personality. 403 00:18:28,636 --> 00:18:30,572 ANDREA: His ex-wife also shared 404 00:18:30,604 --> 00:18:32,873 that Neil used to go by Neil Jones, 405 00:18:32,908 --> 00:18:36,043 but he changed his last name to his mother's maiden name, 406 00:18:36,078 --> 00:18:37,479 which is Lawman. 407 00:18:37,511 --> 00:18:39,747 NEIL'S EX-WIFE: Neil was very charming 408 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:43,885 and very good at making people feel comfortable. 409 00:18:43,918 --> 00:18:45,520 ♪ ♪ 410 00:18:45,554 --> 00:18:48,390 He appeared to be ambitious. 411 00:18:48,422 --> 00:18:49,791 He appeared to be a hard worker, 412 00:18:49,824 --> 00:18:52,860 but he was very deceiving in all of those things. 413 00:18:52,894 --> 00:18:54,529 ♪ ♪ 414 00:18:54,563 --> 00:18:56,264 Never spent any time with the kids, 415 00:18:56,297 --> 00:19:00,769 and he was having affairs. 416 00:19:00,801 --> 00:19:03,637 ANDREA: Even though things were getting really bad, 417 00:19:03,671 --> 00:19:05,940 Neil's ex-wife tried to stick it out for the kids, 418 00:19:05,974 --> 00:19:06,875 but Neil left. 419 00:19:06,908 --> 00:19:08,877 ♪ ♪ 420 00:19:08,909 --> 00:19:12,213 - He left his ex-wife for another relationship. 421 00:19:12,247 --> 00:19:13,849 ♪ ♪ 422 00:19:13,881 --> 00:19:16,717 NEIL'S EX-WIFE: So he left in November 2009. 423 00:19:16,752 --> 00:19:20,454 The last time my daughters saw him was March 2010, 424 00:19:20,488 --> 00:19:23,091 and they have not seen him since then. 425 00:19:23,125 --> 00:19:24,792 ♪ ♪ 426 00:19:24,826 --> 00:19:27,695 - Tina and Neil's ex-wife, they start a connection. 427 00:19:27,729 --> 00:19:30,564 They start talking on the phone and texting all the time. 428 00:19:30,599 --> 00:19:32,600 So they decide to meet up in London. 429 00:19:32,634 --> 00:19:34,970 TINA: We instantly got along. 430 00:19:35,002 --> 00:19:36,738 [light music] 431 00:19:36,770 --> 00:19:38,672 I remember her saying to me, all these years, 432 00:19:38,707 --> 00:19:40,841 I've felt like the stupidest woman in the world. 433 00:19:40,876 --> 00:19:42,644 And then I meet you, and you're, like, 434 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:45,146 the smartest woman I've ever met, 435 00:19:45,180 --> 00:19:47,649 and you were duped. 436 00:19:47,681 --> 00:19:50,252 And I felt exactly the same way about her. 437 00:19:50,284 --> 00:19:52,921 There was a vindication. 438 00:19:52,953 --> 00:19:56,190 - I told Tina everything about my relationship with Neil. 439 00:19:56,224 --> 00:20:00,060 [tense music] 440 00:20:00,095 --> 00:20:01,630 ♪ ♪ 441 00:20:01,662 --> 00:20:04,599 TINA: They lived very lavishly. 442 00:20:04,632 --> 00:20:05,966 She thought that he was doing well in business. 443 00:20:06,001 --> 00:20:09,470 But actually, she found out that he remortgaged their house 444 00:20:09,503 --> 00:20:11,139 without her knowing. 445 00:20:11,172 --> 00:20:12,740 ♪ ♪ 446 00:20:12,774 --> 00:20:15,510 NEIL'S EX-WIFE: He also had 40,000 pounds 447 00:20:15,543 --> 00:20:16,744 worth of business debts, 448 00:20:16,778 --> 00:20:19,581 which had a claim over the house, 449 00:20:19,613 --> 00:20:21,917 and I didn't know anything about any of it. 450 00:20:21,949 --> 00:20:23,952 So I had to put the house on the market, 451 00:20:23,984 --> 00:20:27,189 sell it to pay off his debt, and then start again. 452 00:20:27,221 --> 00:20:28,823 ♪ ♪ 453 00:20:28,856 --> 00:20:31,493 - Neil's ex and Tina chatted for hours, 454 00:20:31,525 --> 00:20:34,863 and then she dropped a bombshell. 455 00:20:34,895 --> 00:20:38,332 - I said to Tina, "I hate to tell you this, 456 00:20:38,365 --> 00:20:40,202 but Neil had two other sons." 457 00:20:40,234 --> 00:20:42,837 [dramatic music] 458 00:20:42,871 --> 00:20:45,539 ANDREA: After Neil left, his ex-wife finds out, 459 00:20:45,573 --> 00:20:47,641 through Child Maintenance Services, 460 00:20:47,676 --> 00:20:50,244 that he had two sons that he had had 461 00:20:50,278 --> 00:20:51,645 before they had ever met, 462 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,280 and he had never once mentioned them to her. 463 00:20:53,314 --> 00:20:55,417 ♪ ♪ 464 00:20:55,449 --> 00:20:58,453 - Why would you wanna have kids 465 00:20:58,485 --> 00:20:59,119 if you didn't want to have kids? 466 00:20:59,154 --> 00:21:03,859 ♪ ♪ 467 00:21:03,891 --> 00:21:06,895 - Before calling it a night, Tina had an idea. 468 00:21:08,930 --> 00:21:13,001 - I thought it would be funny to send him a little memento. 469 00:21:14,101 --> 00:21:18,840 We took a picture and were giving him the bird, 470 00:21:18,872 --> 00:21:22,543 and we entitled it, "The other mother." 471 00:21:22,577 --> 00:21:25,346 He didn't take it with humor. 472 00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:27,282 [ominous music] 473 00:21:27,314 --> 00:21:31,552 He sent emails to my work. 474 00:21:31,586 --> 00:21:35,689 He wrote very graphic, awful depictions 475 00:21:35,724 --> 00:21:37,859 of the time that we dated and made it out 476 00:21:37,893 --> 00:21:40,194 to actually be something quite lewd. 477 00:21:40,228 --> 00:21:41,729 ♪ ♪ 478 00:21:41,762 --> 00:21:45,100 And he sent it to the entire company 479 00:21:45,132 --> 00:21:46,902 I worked for. 480 00:21:46,935 --> 00:21:49,570 If he'd have sent naked pictures of me, 481 00:21:49,604 --> 00:21:51,105 it wouldn't have been less humiliating. 482 00:21:51,139 --> 00:21:53,908 ♪ ♪ 483 00:21:53,942 --> 00:21:57,878 - Tina was not about to be bullied by Neil, 484 00:21:57,912 --> 00:22:00,681 so she reports the email to the police, 485 00:22:00,715 --> 00:22:02,417 and they put out a warrant for his arrest 486 00:22:02,449 --> 00:22:04,786 for malicious communication. 487 00:22:04,819 --> 00:22:06,688 TINA: The police told me he also had 488 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,590 another warrant out for his arrest 489 00:22:08,622 --> 00:22:11,725 at the same time for fraud. 490 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,363 I learned that he was arrested 11 times 491 00:22:16,398 --> 00:22:18,533 and convicted 5. 492 00:22:18,565 --> 00:22:20,635 But Neil's never served 493 00:22:20,668 --> 00:22:23,704 more than a couple of days in prison. 494 00:22:23,738 --> 00:22:26,875 He always gets suspended sentences. 495 00:22:26,908 --> 00:22:28,743 ANDREA: And so Tina was hoping that, 496 00:22:28,777 --> 00:22:30,744 with this malicious communications charge, 497 00:22:30,779 --> 00:22:34,983 it would finally land him behind bars. 498 00:22:35,015 --> 00:22:37,618 TINA: The police said they couldn't find him, 499 00:22:37,652 --> 00:22:41,488 so the warrant got canceled after a year, 500 00:22:41,523 --> 00:22:42,289 and they didn't even let me know. 501 00:22:42,323 --> 00:22:44,125 ♪ ♪ 502 00:22:44,158 --> 00:22:46,661 NEIL'S EX-WIFE: The man is still walking the streets, 503 00:22:46,694 --> 00:22:48,796 and he is still capable of impregnating women 504 00:22:48,829 --> 00:22:51,699 and then walking away with total abandon. 505 00:22:51,733 --> 00:22:53,667 So Tina had this idea to set up a Facebook page 506 00:22:53,702 --> 00:22:56,003 to warn people about Neil. 507 00:22:56,037 --> 00:22:56,970 ♪ ♪ 508 00:22:57,005 --> 00:23:00,942 TINA: The Neil Lawman victims support group. 509 00:23:00,975 --> 00:23:03,845 We just hoped that people would type his name 510 00:23:03,877 --> 00:23:06,715 into Facebook before dating him 511 00:23:06,747 --> 00:23:09,717 or before going into business with him, 512 00:23:09,751 --> 00:23:12,220 and it'll give them a little red flag. 513 00:23:12,252 --> 00:23:15,590 ANDREA: Neil tried to get the Facebook page taken down, 514 00:23:15,622 --> 00:23:19,027 but Tina fought to keep it up, and she won. 515 00:23:19,060 --> 00:23:20,694 ♪ ♪ 516 00:23:20,729 --> 00:23:22,463 TINA: In the Facebook group, 517 00:23:22,497 --> 00:23:24,765 there are people who claim 518 00:23:24,798 --> 00:23:27,469 they have had business relationships with him 519 00:23:27,502 --> 00:23:29,837 that went very sour, 520 00:23:29,871 --> 00:23:35,577 women that he has dated who claim he's turned on them, 521 00:23:35,609 --> 00:23:37,878 family members of people that he's hurt 522 00:23:37,912 --> 00:23:41,115 who claim he's caused problems within the families. 523 00:23:41,149 --> 00:23:45,886 There's quite a few landlords who claim he doesn't pay rent. 524 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,291 And what I wasn't expecting was other mothers. 525 00:23:50,324 --> 00:23:56,864 ♪ ♪ 526 00:23:58,432 --> 00:24:01,536 [soft music] 527 00:24:01,569 --> 00:24:03,470 - How did we all meet? [laughs] 528 00:24:03,505 --> 00:24:05,073 - Where do you start? [laughter] 529 00:24:05,105 --> 00:24:07,641 - Well, it's the first time I've actually met 530 00:24:07,675 --> 00:24:09,944 Adelle and Claire in person. 531 00:24:09,978 --> 00:24:12,913 - We arranged for Tina to meet with three members 532 00:24:12,947 --> 00:24:14,983 of the Neil Lawman victims support group. 533 00:24:15,015 --> 00:24:18,619 Right now, there are more than 150 members. 534 00:24:18,653 --> 00:24:19,988 - And of course, Karen. 535 00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:21,055 Yeah. 536 00:24:21,088 --> 00:24:23,725 - Karen came to the group through Neil's ex-wife, 537 00:24:23,757 --> 00:24:26,528 and she says she was one of his first victims 538 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,063 over 30 years ago. 539 00:24:28,095 --> 00:24:31,298 - So obviously, you know, back 30-odd years ago. 540 00:24:31,332 --> 00:24:33,501 Neil was quite young. 541 00:24:33,534 --> 00:24:34,735 KAREN: Yeah. Yeah, he wasn't like, 542 00:24:34,769 --> 00:24:36,371 obviously what he is now, he was just-- 543 00:24:36,404 --> 00:24:37,604 TINA: What was he like? 544 00:24:37,639 --> 00:24:38,640 - Just normal dude. 545 00:24:38,672 --> 00:24:40,041 He was just a normal guy. 546 00:24:40,073 --> 00:24:42,810 TINA: The thing is, his ruse is normality. 547 00:24:42,844 --> 00:24:44,679 He just pretends to be a normal bloke, 548 00:24:44,712 --> 00:24:46,113 and that's how he gets you. 549 00:24:46,146 --> 00:24:48,850 ♪ ♪ 550 00:24:48,882 --> 00:24:51,185 KAREN: When I met Neil, I was 24. 551 00:24:51,219 --> 00:24:53,555 Neil was 20. 552 00:24:53,587 --> 00:24:54,288 He was my neighbor. 553 00:24:54,322 --> 00:24:56,724 [soft music] 554 00:24:56,757 --> 00:24:58,091 In the beginning, he was very charming. 555 00:24:58,126 --> 00:25:01,729 It was like he was looking after me all the time. 556 00:25:01,762 --> 00:25:03,597 - In this relationship, there was no mention 557 00:25:03,631 --> 00:25:06,134 of infertility or cancer. 558 00:25:06,167 --> 00:25:08,802 And nine months into their relationship, 559 00:25:08,837 --> 00:25:11,538 they get engaged, and Karen was pregnant. 560 00:25:11,573 --> 00:25:13,207 ♪ ♪ 561 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,643 KAREN: When I told him I was pregnant, he was happy. 562 00:25:15,676 --> 00:25:16,877 He done the nursery up with me. 563 00:25:16,911 --> 00:25:20,180 And there was no problem. 564 00:25:20,215 --> 00:25:24,551 And when my son was born, he was really hands-on. 565 00:25:24,586 --> 00:25:26,253 ♪ ♪ 566 00:25:26,287 --> 00:25:30,658 - It's kind of strange how Neil goes from this loving father 567 00:25:30,692 --> 00:25:32,726 when his son is born in 1994 568 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,828 to never mentioning him once 569 00:25:34,863 --> 00:25:38,600 to anyone he dates for the next 31 years. 570 00:25:38,632 --> 00:25:41,869 [unsettling music] 571 00:25:41,903 --> 00:25:45,140 - My name is Daniel, and I'm Neil's son. 572 00:25:45,172 --> 00:25:48,042 ♪ ♪ 573 00:25:48,076 --> 00:25:49,277 I don't really remember much, to be honest. 574 00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:51,246 I think I try and block most of it out. 575 00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:52,980 I don't really ask many questions about him. 576 00:25:53,014 --> 00:25:54,882 It's not gonna change anything for me, 577 00:25:54,916 --> 00:25:57,918 so the less I know, the better I feel. 578 00:25:57,952 --> 00:25:59,654 ANDREA: It's in this relationship 579 00:25:59,686 --> 00:26:01,622 where we see a pattern form. 580 00:26:01,655 --> 00:26:03,257 Neil starts off as a great guy, 581 00:26:03,291 --> 00:26:06,027 but then he morphs into a completely different person, 582 00:26:06,060 --> 00:26:08,962 becomes controlling and just plain mean. 583 00:26:08,997 --> 00:26:12,000 KAREN: He didn't like to be wrong or be told no. 584 00:26:12,033 --> 00:26:14,735 And if I ever challenged him, Neil would say 585 00:26:14,769 --> 00:26:16,069 that I was really fat and ugly. 586 00:26:16,104 --> 00:26:18,872 And if you leave me, you'll be on your own. 587 00:26:18,907 --> 00:26:20,875 You're gonna become a single mum. 588 00:26:20,908 --> 00:26:22,743 He'd go from, like, nothing to mad. 589 00:26:22,777 --> 00:26:24,345 He just chipped away at me. 590 00:26:24,378 --> 00:26:28,149 ♪ ♪ 591 00:26:28,181 --> 00:26:31,685 - Multiple women on Facebook allege that Neil was 592 00:26:31,719 --> 00:26:34,189 violent with them, including Karen. 593 00:26:34,221 --> 00:26:36,591 KAREN: At the time, I did love him. 594 00:26:36,623 --> 00:26:38,059 But I was nervous of him, 595 00:26:38,091 --> 00:26:40,295 and I didn't wanna make him angry, 'cause I got a smack. 596 00:26:40,328 --> 00:26:42,329 ♪ ♪ 597 00:26:42,363 --> 00:26:44,498 I kept thinking, it's gonna be all right. 598 00:26:44,532 --> 00:26:45,500 He didn't mean to do it. 599 00:26:45,533 --> 00:26:46,967 He was really sorry. 600 00:26:47,001 --> 00:26:48,502 He said, "I'll never do it again. 601 00:26:48,536 --> 00:26:49,636 I'll get help." 602 00:26:49,671 --> 00:26:51,139 ♪ ♪ 603 00:26:51,171 --> 00:26:54,074 - A lot of what I'm hearing today is obviously 604 00:26:54,108 --> 00:26:57,045 the first time I'm hearing these--these things. 605 00:26:57,078 --> 00:26:58,979 And the more I hear is-- it's just shocking. 606 00:26:59,012 --> 00:27:01,315 It's nothing less than a scumbag. 607 00:27:01,349 --> 00:27:04,551 ANDREA: In responding to a protective order 608 00:27:04,586 --> 00:27:05,886 sought against him, 609 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,221 Neil denies physical abuse allegations, 610 00:27:08,256 --> 00:27:10,958 and he was never convicted of any violent crimes. 611 00:27:10,992 --> 00:27:12,827 But according to Karen, 612 00:27:12,859 --> 00:27:13,795 Neil promised that he would change, 613 00:27:13,828 --> 00:27:16,229 but things didn't get better. 614 00:27:16,264 --> 00:27:20,134 So Karen left Neil when Daniel was just 20 months old. 615 00:27:20,167 --> 00:27:22,670 KAREN: He was seeing him on weekend visits, 616 00:27:22,703 --> 00:27:23,637 but there was loads of times 617 00:27:23,671 --> 00:27:25,806 where he'd let him down and not turn up, 618 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,408 and there was always an excuse. 619 00:27:30,912 --> 00:27:32,447 I was obviously upset. 620 00:27:34,983 --> 00:27:36,283 He's not gonna come back. 621 00:27:36,317 --> 00:27:38,485 He's not gonna suddenly become my father again. 622 00:27:41,256 --> 00:27:43,658 And getting to where I want to go to 623 00:27:43,690 --> 00:27:46,127 in my personal journey. 624 00:27:46,159 --> 00:27:48,462 - Does Neil have a relationship with his son? 625 00:27:48,496 --> 00:27:49,596 KAREN: No. 626 00:27:49,631 --> 00:27:51,466 He did until he was about six. 627 00:27:51,498 --> 00:27:53,635 [tense music] 628 00:27:53,667 --> 00:27:57,872 DANIEL: The last time I seen him was sitting in McDonald's, 629 00:27:57,904 --> 00:28:00,908 and there was, like, sea monkeys. 630 00:28:00,942 --> 00:28:02,710 He gave me those and basically said that 631 00:28:02,743 --> 00:28:04,412 he couldn't see me no more. 632 00:28:04,444 --> 00:28:08,750 - And then he just literally disappeared, went, gone. 633 00:28:08,783 --> 00:28:10,018 ANDREA: That was in 2000, 634 00:28:10,051 --> 00:28:12,520 the same year Neil met his ex-wife, 635 00:28:12,552 --> 00:28:15,590 who didn't even find out about Daniel until after he left, 636 00:28:15,622 --> 00:28:19,359 and she read the Child Maintenance Service report. 637 00:28:19,394 --> 00:28:22,029 There was another son that was listed on the CMS report. 638 00:28:22,063 --> 00:28:25,065 It was a son that he had when he was 18, 639 00:28:25,099 --> 00:28:27,167 and he ran off as soon as he was born. 640 00:28:27,201 --> 00:28:30,537 And Tina tracked down that mother on Facebook. 641 00:28:30,570 --> 00:28:31,305 [mysterious music] 642 00:28:31,338 --> 00:28:33,274 TINA: She's very, very direct. 643 00:28:33,306 --> 00:28:34,408 She said, "Just forget about him. 644 00:28:34,442 --> 00:28:36,210 Put it behind you. Don't think about him." 645 00:28:36,243 --> 00:28:38,880 And she said the day someone calls her 646 00:28:38,912 --> 00:28:41,314 to let her know that he's dropped dead 647 00:28:41,349 --> 00:28:44,484 will be the day she pops open a bottle of champagne. 648 00:28:45,386 --> 00:28:46,887 ANDREA: Through this Facebook group, 649 00:28:46,921 --> 00:28:49,056 another shocking detail comes to light 650 00:28:49,090 --> 00:28:51,426 28 years after it happened. 651 00:28:51,458 --> 00:28:56,331 - Two of his kids were born eight weeks apart. 652 00:28:56,363 --> 00:28:59,167 ANDREA: Those two boys were born to mothers 653 00:28:59,199 --> 00:29:00,768 who lived on the same street. 654 00:29:00,801 --> 00:29:04,137 One of the moms was Karen. 655 00:29:04,171 --> 00:29:08,443 - He also had a girlfriend down the road. 656 00:29:12,713 --> 00:29:13,747 And I said, he's 28 in August. 657 00:29:13,780 --> 00:29:15,483 And she said, "I think you should hear it from me. 658 00:29:15,515 --> 00:29:17,752 There's another child, and he was 28 in June." 659 00:29:17,784 --> 00:29:21,956 I was like, "Oh. Oh, OK." 660 00:29:21,988 --> 00:29:26,194 I'm just waiting for who else there is. 661 00:29:26,226 --> 00:29:29,197 - I call myself the one who got away. 662 00:29:36,002 --> 00:29:37,404 [tense music] 663 00:29:37,438 --> 00:29:39,372 - How did it feel to you when you found out 664 00:29:39,407 --> 00:29:42,609 there was another woman who had a baby at the same time? 665 00:29:42,643 --> 00:29:44,345 - To be honest, because I've been speaking to you guys, 666 00:29:44,377 --> 00:29:45,712 I wasn't actually really shocked. 667 00:29:45,747 --> 00:29:48,882 Just made Daniel a bit further down in the pecking order. 668 00:29:48,916 --> 00:29:51,284 [laughter] 669 00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:52,653 TINA: She lived on the same street. 670 00:29:52,686 --> 00:29:55,390 - Literally the same street. I didn't know that, obviously. 671 00:29:55,422 --> 00:29:57,759 - How did they keep you separated and not cross paths? 672 00:29:57,792 --> 00:30:00,293 - We had to move quickly. 673 00:30:00,328 --> 00:30:02,395 CLAIRE: You have to think to yourself, 674 00:30:02,430 --> 00:30:05,733 how has he managed to do this to people and keep doing it? 675 00:30:05,766 --> 00:30:07,100 - Get away with it. 676 00:30:07,135 --> 00:30:08,770 - It just gets more and more insane. 677 00:30:08,802 --> 00:30:16,277 ♪ ♪ 678 00:30:17,310 --> 00:30:20,046 I kind of struck up a relationship with Neil 679 00:30:20,081 --> 00:30:24,452 through a Facebook business group in 2015. 680 00:30:24,484 --> 00:30:28,355 I was going through a divorce, and I had two young boys. 681 00:30:28,389 --> 00:30:31,057 I wasn't looking for a relationship 682 00:30:31,091 --> 00:30:33,226 or anything like that, but there was this 683 00:30:33,261 --> 00:30:36,296 underlying charisma that kind of came across 684 00:30:36,329 --> 00:30:38,899 once you started speaking to him. 685 00:30:38,932 --> 00:30:40,701 That's when he reeled you in. 686 00:30:40,734 --> 00:30:43,270 [indistinct chatter] 687 00:30:43,304 --> 00:30:48,141 The first time I heard about the infertility, 688 00:30:48,176 --> 00:30:50,478 we'd been out for drinks. 689 00:30:50,511 --> 00:30:54,649 ♪ ♪ 690 00:30:54,681 --> 00:30:57,284 And the next morning, 691 00:30:57,318 --> 00:30:59,587 I woke to find him in my bed. 692 00:30:59,619 --> 00:31:03,390 ♪ ♪ 693 00:31:03,423 --> 00:31:07,060 We hadn't been intimate prior to this. 694 00:31:07,094 --> 00:31:08,429 I remember saying to him, "Oh, my God, 695 00:31:08,462 --> 00:31:10,096 did--did we have sex last night?" 696 00:31:10,131 --> 00:31:12,332 And he was like, "Don't you remember?" 697 00:31:12,365 --> 00:31:14,435 And he made it all jokey and, like, made me feel 698 00:31:14,469 --> 00:31:18,104 a bit stupid for not remembering. 699 00:31:18,139 --> 00:31:21,641 And I said, did we use something? 700 00:31:21,676 --> 00:31:24,345 Obviously, I didn't want to have any more children. 701 00:31:24,377 --> 00:31:27,148 And he said to me, "Listen, don't worry, don't worry. 702 00:31:27,180 --> 00:31:28,748 I can't have children anyway." 703 00:31:28,783 --> 00:31:30,318 [dramatic music] 704 00:31:30,350 --> 00:31:32,319 "I've had testicular cancer. 705 00:31:32,353 --> 00:31:33,954 "I had to go through chemotherapy. 706 00:31:33,988 --> 00:31:37,692 I have no more sperm cells." 707 00:31:37,725 --> 00:31:39,961 I was ashamed. 708 00:31:39,993 --> 00:31:42,630 I needed to close that chapter. 709 00:31:42,662 --> 00:31:45,432 ♪ ♪ 710 00:31:45,466 --> 00:31:46,634 ANDREA: Neil tried to see Claire again. 711 00:31:46,667 --> 00:31:49,770 Even though she never became pregnant by him, 712 00:31:49,804 --> 00:31:51,572 she cut him off. 713 00:31:51,605 --> 00:31:56,310 - He targets divorced women with children and with careers. 714 00:31:56,344 --> 00:31:58,613 And you know, he's-- he's definitely followed 715 00:31:58,645 --> 00:32:02,350 a--a pattern. 716 00:32:02,382 --> 00:32:06,253 He goes for successful, secure women 717 00:32:06,287 --> 00:32:09,623 and then tries to drag them down. 718 00:32:09,657 --> 00:32:12,592 ♪ ♪ 719 00:32:12,627 --> 00:32:16,396 When I reached out to his most recent girlfriend, 720 00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:18,099 she was really under his control. 721 00:32:18,131 --> 00:32:21,601 [tense music] 722 00:32:21,636 --> 00:32:22,670 ♪ ♪ 723 00:32:22,703 --> 00:32:24,137 - I'm Rachel. 724 00:32:24,171 --> 00:32:27,007 I met Neil Lawman through my business 725 00:32:27,041 --> 00:32:28,475 I had at the time. 726 00:32:28,509 --> 00:32:31,845 Neil came across very like a successful businessman 727 00:32:31,878 --> 00:32:34,347 and caring person. 728 00:32:34,381 --> 00:32:36,082 In the beginning of the relationship, 729 00:32:36,117 --> 00:32:37,217 he was really good around my kids, 730 00:32:37,251 --> 00:32:38,519 and my kids really liked him. 731 00:32:38,551 --> 00:32:40,720 ANDREA: Neil did tell Rachel 732 00:32:40,755 --> 00:32:42,590 about his two daughters with his ex-wife, 733 00:32:42,622 --> 00:32:45,393 but there was no mention of any other children. 734 00:32:45,426 --> 00:32:48,395 And in the 2 1/2 years that they are together, 735 00:32:48,429 --> 00:32:50,197 there was no mention of infertility, 736 00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:51,364 no mention of cancer. 737 00:32:51,399 --> 00:32:53,501 But he had other stories to tell. 738 00:32:53,533 --> 00:32:57,238 RACHEL: He told me about all the property that he owns 739 00:32:57,270 --> 00:32:59,640 and how he used to work for the government 740 00:32:59,673 --> 00:33:04,110 and how he used to be an ex-pro ice hockey player. 741 00:33:04,145 --> 00:33:05,412 Everything he told me was a lie. 742 00:33:05,445 --> 00:33:08,349 But he says it in such a way, it's very believable, 743 00:33:08,381 --> 00:33:11,452 so I never really questioned it. 744 00:33:11,484 --> 00:33:13,453 ANDREA: Rachel and her kids moved in with Neil. 745 00:33:13,487 --> 00:33:15,456 At first, they stayed in his two-bedroom apartment, 746 00:33:15,488 --> 00:33:17,158 but then Rachel bought her own house, 747 00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:18,626 and Neil came with her. 748 00:33:18,658 --> 00:33:21,662 And according to her, he slowly started to change. 749 00:33:21,695 --> 00:33:24,097 RACHEL: It was mentally controlling. 750 00:33:24,131 --> 00:33:25,466 It's weird. 751 00:33:25,498 --> 00:33:26,167 He had that thing about you where he would 752 00:33:26,199 --> 00:33:27,201 pick you up and lift you up. 753 00:33:27,234 --> 00:33:28,168 You'd think, great, I feel amazing. 754 00:33:28,202 --> 00:33:30,637 But then he'd really drop you down 755 00:33:30,671 --> 00:33:33,106 and just kind of pick on the things you don't like. 756 00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:34,542 [ominous music] 757 00:33:34,574 --> 00:33:36,409 The way I dress, the way I look. 758 00:33:36,444 --> 00:33:39,512 And then by the end, he was distant from everyone. 759 00:33:39,546 --> 00:33:41,349 He didn't really show any emotion or care 760 00:33:41,381 --> 00:33:45,418 or interest in me or my kids. 761 00:33:45,453 --> 00:33:48,488 ANDREA: Rachel's family is concerned about Neil. 762 00:33:48,521 --> 00:33:51,192 And Rachel has an aunt that decides to do 763 00:33:51,225 --> 00:33:52,993 her own investigation 764 00:33:53,027 --> 00:33:54,261 and finds this Facebook page 765 00:33:54,295 --> 00:33:55,662 and shows Rachel. 766 00:33:55,695 --> 00:33:58,431 And Rachel is horrified by what she sees, 767 00:33:58,466 --> 00:34:00,768 and it motivates her to leave Neil. 768 00:34:00,801 --> 00:34:03,537 She sends him an email saying that she's left, 769 00:34:03,570 --> 00:34:07,341 and then he starts bombarding her with voice messages. 770 00:34:07,375 --> 00:34:10,011 NEIL: Rachel, I've just got your email, 771 00:34:10,043 --> 00:34:14,148 and I'm absolutely gutted. 772 00:34:14,180 --> 00:34:16,050 I want to be with you. 773 00:34:16,082 --> 00:34:18,019 I love you. 774 00:34:18,051 --> 00:34:20,287 Please answer my call, Rachel. 775 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,823 Please, please come home. 776 00:34:22,856 --> 00:34:25,592 RACHEL: At the beginning, it was very desperate. 777 00:34:25,626 --> 00:34:28,429 And then it kind of turned nasty. 778 00:34:28,462 --> 00:34:30,864 NEIL: You snuck off, and I'm walking 779 00:34:30,898 --> 00:34:33,167 around the house, thinking, well, all this is mine. 780 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,069 All this is mine. 781 00:34:35,101 --> 00:34:36,537 I have got nowhere to go, 782 00:34:36,569 --> 00:34:39,273 and I am not leaving this house. 783 00:34:39,305 --> 00:34:41,375 [dramatic music] 784 00:34:41,408 --> 00:34:42,676 RACHEL: I just ignored it. 785 00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:44,310 There's no way to get me back now. 786 00:34:44,345 --> 00:34:45,912 Not a chance in hell. 787 00:34:45,945 --> 00:34:49,216 ANDREA: Rachel's lucky that she was able to completely 788 00:34:49,250 --> 00:34:50,484 cut Neil out of her life. 789 00:34:50,518 --> 00:34:53,020 So many women are still connected to Neil 790 00:34:53,054 --> 00:34:54,055 through their children. 791 00:34:54,087 --> 00:34:57,858 And how many children Neil has is hard to confirm. 792 00:34:57,891 --> 00:35:01,862 - When it comes to kids that there's either a DNA test 793 00:35:01,895 --> 00:35:05,698 or he's on their birth certificate, there's five. 794 00:35:05,733 --> 00:35:09,302 Some people have reached out and said 795 00:35:09,336 --> 00:35:11,404 that they have his child. 796 00:35:11,439 --> 00:35:14,707 I think there's 13 alleged children. 797 00:35:14,742 --> 00:35:16,743 ♪ ♪ 798 00:35:16,777 --> 00:35:20,146 - Tina got one of the UK's largest newspapers, 799 00:35:20,180 --> 00:35:21,948 The Times, to cover the story. 800 00:35:21,981 --> 00:35:24,719 ♪ ♪ 801 00:35:24,752 --> 00:35:28,255 - My name is Ben Ellery, and I am the crime editor 802 00:35:28,288 --> 00:35:30,858 for The Times. 803 00:35:30,890 --> 00:35:35,395 Every person we spoke to opened another doorway 804 00:35:35,429 --> 00:35:38,231 into this world of Neil Lawman. 805 00:35:38,265 --> 00:35:40,333 Each one took us further 806 00:35:40,367 --> 00:35:42,103 and was slightly more unbelievable. 807 00:35:42,136 --> 00:35:44,805 ♪ ♪ 808 00:35:44,838 --> 00:35:48,809 We got to a stage where if we wanted to run the story, 809 00:35:48,842 --> 00:35:51,746 we needed to gather some hard evidence. 810 00:35:51,779 --> 00:35:55,682 TINA: We did a DNA test between my daughter 811 00:35:55,716 --> 00:35:59,587 and his ex-wife's two daughters. 812 00:35:59,619 --> 00:36:02,555 Neil's on their birth certificate. 813 00:36:02,590 --> 00:36:05,792 The markers came through on their DNA test 814 00:36:05,826 --> 00:36:09,162 more than most full siblings have. 815 00:36:09,195 --> 00:36:11,030 It's ironclad. 816 00:36:11,064 --> 00:36:13,501 ♪ ♪ 817 00:36:13,533 --> 00:36:16,604 BEN: I know Tina is campaigning for 818 00:36:16,636 --> 00:36:19,239 lying to someone about being infertile 819 00:36:19,273 --> 00:36:21,542 to be made a criminal offense. 820 00:36:21,574 --> 00:36:22,810 TINA: There is absolutely justice 821 00:36:22,842 --> 00:36:24,979 that needs to be served against Neil. 822 00:36:25,011 --> 00:36:26,646 ♪ ♪ 823 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,283 I want him to be convicted of rape by deception. 824 00:36:30,317 --> 00:36:33,820 ♪ ♪ 825 00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:40,828 [tense music] 826 00:36:40,860 --> 00:36:45,533 - Neil had gone to such lengths with his lies 827 00:36:45,565 --> 00:36:47,701 to impregnate me with a child 828 00:36:47,734 --> 00:36:51,939 he had no intentions of being part of. 829 00:36:51,971 --> 00:36:54,475 ♪ ♪ 830 00:36:54,507 --> 00:36:56,377 At one point, there was a police officer 831 00:36:56,409 --> 00:36:58,578 who did take a great interest 832 00:36:58,612 --> 00:37:02,716 and start investigating Neil's actions. 833 00:37:02,750 --> 00:37:05,886 She said it really did fit with rape by deception. 834 00:37:07,654 --> 00:37:09,355 ANDREA: Rape by deception falls outside 835 00:37:09,390 --> 00:37:10,858 the typical definition of rape. 836 00:37:10,890 --> 00:37:15,095 It's an argument that says a perpetrator deceives someone 837 00:37:15,128 --> 00:37:16,663 in order to get consent. 838 00:37:16,697 --> 00:37:21,769 - I didn't consent to be with a fertile man. 839 00:37:21,801 --> 00:37:23,770 ANDREA: There's another high-profile case in the UK 840 00:37:23,804 --> 00:37:26,439 where a man lied about having a vasectomy 841 00:37:26,472 --> 00:37:27,807 and got a woman pregnant, 842 00:37:27,841 --> 00:37:30,344 and the rape-by-deception argument was used, 843 00:37:30,377 --> 00:37:31,845 and he was found guilty. 844 00:37:31,878 --> 00:37:35,748 But ultimately, he was able to have that verdict overturned. 845 00:37:35,783 --> 00:37:40,654 - It was overturned because rape by deception 846 00:37:40,688 --> 00:37:44,457 has to be connected to the sex act itself, 847 00:37:44,490 --> 00:37:46,493 not the circumstances around the act. 848 00:37:46,527 --> 00:37:48,494 ANDREA: Now it's precedent. 849 00:37:48,529 --> 00:37:51,398 So Tina's investigation was dropped. 850 00:37:51,431 --> 00:37:54,234 - You can't seem to pin him down 851 00:37:54,268 --> 00:37:55,269 and prosecute him for anything. 852 00:37:55,301 --> 00:37:57,604 - The rape by deception, malicious communication, 853 00:37:57,637 --> 00:38:00,474 fraud, all been swept under the rug. 854 00:38:00,506 --> 00:38:04,545 But I'd love to see change happening. 855 00:38:04,578 --> 00:38:08,515 But what we have managed to do is, 856 00:38:08,548 --> 00:38:10,850 if not stop him, slow him down. 857 00:38:10,885 --> 00:38:13,453 ANDREA: These women aren't expecting Neil 858 00:38:13,487 --> 00:38:15,823 to make any admissions anytime soon. 859 00:38:15,855 --> 00:38:20,594 They're just left wondering why Neil is the way he is. 860 00:38:20,627 --> 00:38:21,895 CLAIRE: Do you think it's a control thing? 861 00:38:21,929 --> 00:38:24,230 - I do think so. - Because he goes for women 862 00:38:24,265 --> 00:38:25,733 that are freshly divorced. 863 00:38:25,765 --> 00:38:27,835 So there's that vulnerability about them 864 00:38:27,868 --> 00:38:29,770 even though they are strong, independent women. 865 00:38:29,802 --> 00:38:31,438 - He finds their vulnerability. CLAIRE: Yeah. 866 00:38:31,471 --> 00:38:32,907 And that's where he gets in at. 867 00:38:32,939 --> 00:38:36,777 And it's from then he kind of monopolizes everything. 868 00:38:36,810 --> 00:38:39,479 - You can't put it down to trauma or anything for him 869 00:38:39,512 --> 00:38:40,447 because he had a good upbringing. 870 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:41,414 He's got a good family. 871 00:38:41,448 --> 00:38:43,016 He's got no excuse whatsoever. 872 00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:44,051 - Yeah. 873 00:38:44,083 --> 00:38:45,752 ♪ ♪ 874 00:38:45,786 --> 00:38:49,289 TINA: I know because of the Facebook group 875 00:38:49,323 --> 00:38:51,591 and after The Times article, 876 00:38:51,625 --> 00:38:54,261 people aren't buying into his fraud so much 877 00:38:54,295 --> 00:38:57,765 and his romantic charms. 878 00:38:57,797 --> 00:39:02,069 So I think his lifestyle has definitely taken a downturn. 879 00:39:02,101 --> 00:39:05,005 [tense music] 880 00:39:05,038 --> 00:39:06,140 ♪ ♪ 881 00:39:06,172 --> 00:39:08,641 - Betrayal's investigative team went to Neil's home 882 00:39:08,676 --> 00:39:11,244 in Jaywick to get his side of the story. 883 00:39:11,278 --> 00:39:15,048 ♪ ♪ 884 00:39:15,082 --> 00:39:16,917 [knocking] 885 00:39:33,667 --> 00:39:35,435 TINA: I think all the mothers are worried 886 00:39:35,469 --> 00:39:37,104 about nature and nurture. 887 00:39:37,136 --> 00:39:40,673 [solemn music] 888 00:39:40,707 --> 00:39:42,676 But I've met a number of the children, 889 00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:46,913 and they're all beautiful souls. 890 00:39:46,947 --> 00:39:48,716 ♪ ♪ 891 00:39:48,748 --> 00:39:51,918 NEIL'S EX-WIFE: My girls have really developed 892 00:39:51,952 --> 00:39:57,291 into successful, smart adults in spite of what he did. 893 00:39:57,323 --> 00:39:58,792 ♪ ♪ 894 00:39:58,826 --> 00:40:03,596 TINA: My daughter is the most empathetic, 895 00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:05,865 kind, sweet little girl. 896 00:40:05,899 --> 00:40:08,034 There's no faulty wiring in her. 897 00:40:08,068 --> 00:40:10,371 [laughs] 898 00:40:10,404 --> 00:40:14,640 JOSEPHINE: That looks like me. 899 00:40:14,675 --> 00:40:17,744 I think it looks just like you, actually. 900 00:40:17,778 --> 00:40:21,015 We've had some conversations about Neil, 901 00:40:21,047 --> 00:40:25,719 and what I've let her know is that she's been lucky 902 00:40:25,752 --> 00:40:28,822 that she's grown up being given a lot of love 903 00:40:28,855 --> 00:40:31,925 and a lot of affection and a lot of attention. 904 00:40:31,958 --> 00:40:34,828 So she's able to go and give it to other people. 905 00:40:34,862 --> 00:40:38,532 And I said, not everyone is filled with that 906 00:40:38,564 --> 00:40:39,766 when they're growing up. 907 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,935 And unfortunately, he's one of those people 908 00:40:41,969 --> 00:40:44,070 that just doesn't have it to give. 909 00:40:44,104 --> 00:40:48,942 She doesn't ever seem particularly fazed by it. 910 00:40:48,975 --> 00:40:52,479 - When Neil's ex-wife told her daughters about Fifi, 911 00:40:52,512 --> 00:40:53,646 they wanted to meet her, 912 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,849 and now they have a relationship. 913 00:40:55,882 --> 00:40:58,685 - They've been in her life since she was three months old. 914 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,054 She absolutely adores them. 915 00:41:00,087 --> 00:41:02,956 She's met Daniel, her half-brother, as well. 916 00:41:02,989 --> 00:41:05,759 And--and I think she just feels quite fulfilled 917 00:41:05,792 --> 00:41:09,029 by having people who genuinely care about her, 918 00:41:09,063 --> 00:41:11,398 so why would she care about someone who doesn't? 919 00:41:11,431 --> 00:41:14,902 [tense music] 920 00:41:14,935 --> 00:41:19,840 I wish for his future that it's exactly what he deserves. 921 00:41:19,872 --> 00:41:22,842 But let's end on a positive note and say that, 922 00:41:22,876 --> 00:41:25,378 doesn't he have amazing taste in women? 923 00:41:25,412 --> 00:41:26,279 KAREN: Oh, absolutely. 924 00:41:26,313 --> 00:41:28,849 [laughter] 925 00:41:28,881 --> 00:41:31,819 TINA: Whether he'll actually face justice or not, 926 00:41:31,851 --> 00:41:36,823 I hope so, but all I can do is tell my story 927 00:41:36,856 --> 00:41:40,894 and hope that someone listens 928 00:41:40,927 --> 00:41:44,363 who has the power to do something about it. 929 00:41:44,398 --> 00:41:45,119 ♪ ♪ 930 00:41:45,152 --> 00:41:47,028 [blowing, laughing]