1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:07,835 [music] 2 00:00:07,938 --> 00:00:11,252 For a long time, I was very angry. 3 00:00:12,426 --> 00:00:16,809 I'm not a cop. I'm not a coroner. 4 00:00:16,913 --> 00:00:19,536 I'm not the D.A., 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:24,817 but I had to actually step into their role and do their job. 6 00:00:26,233 --> 00:00:31,307 Didn't even want to look into it. 7 00:00:32,480 --> 00:00:35,242 It's almost as though she wasn't even a person. 8 00:00:37,175 --> 00:00:41,731 I had no idea what I was getting into. 9 00:00:41,834 --> 00:00:47,081 And I really went into this absolutely naive. 10 00:00:48,255 --> 00:00:52,259 It's been a never-ending saw blade 11 00:00:52,362 --> 00:00:57,091 of witnesses' documents and searching for answers. 12 00:00:57,195 --> 00:00:59,749 And the truth behind my mother's murder. 13 00:01:01,130 --> 00:01:04,581 I did what needed to be done. 14 00:01:04,685 --> 00:01:07,688 If I wouldn't have done it, nobody would have done it. 15 00:01:13,797 --> 00:01:19,182 [music] 16 00:01:25,257 --> 00:01:27,294 This bus has a name. 17 00:01:27,846 --> 00:01:31,539 Her name is Sissy Hankshaw from the book, 18 00:01:34,024 --> 00:01:36,579 Even Cowgirls Get The Blues. 19 00:01:37,097 --> 00:01:41,722 I love the peace signs that we get driving down the road. 20 00:01:41,825 --> 00:01:45,174 There are certain things that make me happy, 21 00:01:45,277 --> 00:01:47,279 keep me light. 22 00:01:48,556 --> 00:01:50,765 Remind me to get out of my head. 23 00:01:52,181 --> 00:01:54,148 Because you have to live life. 24 00:01:56,426 --> 00:02:00,154 My name is Lisa Coppel and I live in Arvada, Colorado. 25 00:02:03,192 --> 00:02:06,264 My mother was born Carmina Coppel. 26 00:02:06,367 --> 00:02:11,131 In Oakland, California, August 14 of 1930 27 00:02:11,234 --> 00:02:16,343 to a well-to-do family in Berkeley. 28 00:02:16,446 --> 00:02:18,724 My mom was always searching for love. 29 00:02:18,828 --> 00:02:23,488 And never quite found the right love. 30 00:02:23,591 --> 00:02:26,215 My mom had several different marriages, 31 00:02:26,318 --> 00:02:30,288 resulting in a total of seven of us children. 32 00:02:30,391 --> 00:02:33,981 But eventually it was just my mom, 33 00:02:34,084 --> 00:02:36,673 my sister, Paula, and myself. 34 00:02:41,368 --> 00:02:44,819 In 1970, Mom moved an 35 00:02:44,923 --> 00:02:49,099 8 foot wide by 24 foot long 36 00:02:49,203 --> 00:02:50,998 mobile home 37 00:02:51,101 --> 00:02:55,520 up to Stratton Park, Colorado. 38 00:02:55,623 --> 00:02:59,938 Where we lived was very rural, very rustic. 39 00:03:00,041 --> 00:03:04,218 We had no indoor plumbing. And virtually off grid. 40 00:03:07,601 --> 00:03:13,158 In 1972, Mom noticed a pickup truck across the field 41 00:03:13,262 --> 00:03:18,301 and spotted a man named Chuck, 42 00:03:18,405 --> 00:03:20,924 Charles Leroy Anderson. 43 00:03:22,340 --> 00:03:27,068 Mom and Chuck had a whirlwind romance. 44 00:03:27,172 --> 00:03:32,557 And on February 12 of 1973, 45 00:03:33,903 --> 00:03:35,870 they went and got married. 46 00:03:38,079 --> 00:03:42,912 They were only married nine days, but Chuck was... 47 00:03:44,154 --> 00:03:46,778 A bad influence on Mom. 48 00:03:46,881 --> 00:03:51,161 They drank a lot during the week, weekends. 49 00:03:51,265 --> 00:03:53,405 It didn't matter. 50 00:03:56,443 --> 00:04:00,205 February 21st of 1973, 51 00:04:00,309 --> 00:04:02,483 Mom and Chuck had been at the bar drinking, 52 00:04:02,587 --> 00:04:06,591 and they came home pretty drunk. 53 00:04:06,694 --> 00:04:11,837 I laid in my bunk and listened to them fight. 54 00:04:11,941 --> 00:04:14,323 And I remember him yelling at her, 55 00:04:14,426 --> 00:04:16,739 "Look at what[bleep] you made me do," 56 00:04:16,842 --> 00:04:21,261 and screaming at her, calling her dirty and nasty names. 57 00:04:22,538 --> 00:04:24,919 Then I went to sleep because it got quiet. 58 00:04:29,579 --> 00:04:31,167 A little while later, 59 00:04:31,271 --> 00:04:35,067 I'm awakened by one of the neighbors, 60 00:04:35,171 --> 00:04:39,624 shaking me gently saying, "Girls, you have to get up. 61 00:04:39,727 --> 00:04:41,971 Something's happened and you need to get dressed 62 00:04:42,074 --> 00:04:44,491 and we need to go." 63 00:04:45,457 --> 00:04:48,702 I was guided down the hallway 64 00:04:50,462 --> 00:04:52,809 where I had to step over a sheet. 65 00:04:54,086 --> 00:04:56,503 That was my mom's legs. 66 00:04:57,607 --> 00:05:00,403 I knew what death was, but 67 00:05:00,507 --> 00:05:04,304 I didn't quite register 68 00:05:04,407 --> 00:05:08,411 the darkness that I'd just experienced. 69 00:05:09,826 --> 00:05:13,968 We were put into an emergency vehicle, an ambulance. 70 00:05:14,072 --> 00:05:15,522 I was 10 years old, 71 00:05:15,625 --> 00:05:19,733 so I couldn't really process what was going on. 72 00:05:19,836 --> 00:05:23,806 I'm up in-between the driver and Chuck 73 00:05:23,909 --> 00:05:26,326 asking "What happened to my mom? What happened to my mom? 74 00:05:26,429 --> 00:05:29,432 Will somebody tell me what happened to my mom?" 75 00:05:29,536 --> 00:05:32,332 And they wouldn't answer me. 76 00:05:33,919 --> 00:05:38,752 I overheard them call in that there was a 42-year-old woman, 77 00:05:39,925 --> 00:05:42,376 Caucasian, with a gunshot wound to her head. 78 00:05:44,654 --> 00:05:48,106 Chuck had suffered a bullet wound to his hand. 79 00:05:48,209 --> 00:05:52,041 Chuck's explanation of what happened was they were showing 80 00:05:52,144 --> 00:05:57,115 the gun to each other. And my mother, she got startled 81 00:05:57,218 --> 00:06:00,152 and flipped it in the air and caught it with her thumb. 82 00:06:00,256 --> 00:06:03,363 And it just went off in her forehead. 83 00:06:07,125 --> 00:06:11,060 When we got to the hospital, we're unloaded 84 00:06:11,163 --> 00:06:13,994 and Chuck is taken into an emergency area. 85 00:06:14,097 --> 00:06:17,687 And my sister Paula and I were set on a gurney 86 00:06:17,791 --> 00:06:23,452 and told to be big girls about this. 87 00:06:27,870 --> 00:06:32,012 They said, "Your mom has died." 88 00:06:34,670 --> 00:06:38,915 And asked if we had any living relatives around 89 00:06:39,019 --> 00:06:42,160 that we could contact. 90 00:06:43,851 --> 00:06:48,408 Chuck and I didn't speak until the funeral. 91 00:06:50,755 --> 00:06:53,965 And he insisted that he didn't kill my mom. 92 00:06:54,068 --> 00:06:56,795 It was just an accident. 93 00:06:56,899 --> 00:07:00,903 But I couldn't stop thinking about all of the nasty things 94 00:07:01,006 --> 00:07:05,148 that I heard him say. It left a lot of doubt and questions. 95 00:07:05,735 --> 00:07:08,911 I remember not being happy with certain answers 96 00:07:09,014 --> 00:07:11,327 that I was given. 97 00:07:11,776 --> 00:07:14,744 Even though the 10-year-old Lisa saw and knew what she knew, 98 00:07:14,848 --> 00:07:17,782 the police didn't really talk to me. 99 00:07:19,128 --> 00:07:24,651 [music] 100 00:07:24,961 --> 00:07:27,999 My mom's death was ruled an accident. 101 00:07:28,102 --> 00:07:30,588 And it was case closed. 102 00:07:30,691 --> 00:07:33,038 My mom's belongings were put into probate, 103 00:07:33,142 --> 00:07:36,801 along with the livestock from our land. 104 00:07:36,904 --> 00:07:41,806 Apparently, Chuck was the one who bought my horses. 105 00:07:43,014 --> 00:07:46,983 We became orphans and wards of the court. 106 00:07:47,087 --> 00:07:50,435 My sister and I both were in the foster care system, 107 00:07:50,539 --> 00:07:53,058 going through foster homes. 108 00:07:54,922 --> 00:08:00,307 It was a very hard transition. 109 00:08:00,928 --> 00:08:04,276 And that's how we started the next part of our lives. 110 00:08:11,042 --> 00:08:12,215 [Renee] I remember people used to say, 111 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:14,148 "Why do you hang out with her? 112 00:08:14,252 --> 00:08:19,499 She gets so crazy and angry." 113 00:08:19,602 --> 00:08:21,224 And I said, "Well, she has a reason to be angry. 114 00:08:21,328 --> 00:08:23,917 Imagine if your life was the way that hers was." 115 00:08:24,020 --> 00:08:26,678 Foster homes and group homes, and being flipped around 116 00:08:26,782 --> 00:08:28,231 to here to there. 117 00:08:28,335 --> 00:08:30,648 And sleeping in your car, sleeping in the park. 118 00:08:30,751 --> 00:08:32,615 I remember when you started looking-- 119 00:08:32,719 --> 00:08:35,204 Looking for your family. 120 00:08:38,310 --> 00:08:41,072 [music] 121 00:08:41,175 --> 00:08:45,663 [Lisa] In 1994, I was trying to find family. 122 00:08:45,766 --> 00:08:48,355 I wanted to know where I came from. 123 00:08:48,458 --> 00:08:51,254 And I made contact with the father 124 00:08:51,358 --> 00:08:53,256 listed on my birth certificate. 125 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,433 And he wrote me a 15-page letter 126 00:08:57,537 --> 00:09:00,781 telling me the details of 127 00:09:00,885 --> 00:09:03,922 his relationship with my mom. 128 00:09:04,923 --> 00:09:07,754 At the end of his 15-page letter, 129 00:09:07,857 --> 00:09:11,723 he had written something to the effect of, 130 00:09:11,827 --> 00:09:16,901 "Am I sure that my mom died the way I think she did?" 131 00:09:17,004 --> 00:09:20,767 And I started questioning, do I really know? 132 00:09:24,253 --> 00:09:28,844 I remembered being asleep in the bed with the covers over my head 133 00:09:28,947 --> 00:09:31,985 and listening to them argue and them fight. 134 00:09:32,088 --> 00:09:34,850 I don't recall all of the details of 135 00:09:34,953 --> 00:09:36,610 what happened that night, 136 00:09:36,714 --> 00:09:41,615 but I do remember Chuck screaming at Mom, 137 00:09:44,307 --> 00:09:48,346 telling her, "See what you [bleep] made me do?" 138 00:09:48,449 --> 00:09:51,245 "Look what you made me do!" 139 00:09:52,626 --> 00:09:54,904 Calling her a bitch. 140 00:09:56,596 --> 00:10:01,704 I wanted to find out what the police report had to say 141 00:10:01,808 --> 00:10:03,948 about how my mom died. 142 00:10:06,467 --> 00:10:11,541 I'm not a trained detective. I'm not a P.I. by trade, 143 00:10:11,645 --> 00:10:13,992 but I'm kind of like a pit bull. 144 00:10:14,096 --> 00:10:17,651 Once I get on it and I latch onto it, 145 00:10:17,755 --> 00:10:19,998 I'll hang on until the bitter end-- 146 00:10:20,102 --> 00:10:21,655 True. 147 00:10:21,759 --> 00:10:24,037 And I find all of what I'm after. 148 00:10:29,801 --> 00:10:33,115 [music] 149 00:10:33,218 --> 00:10:37,395 The end of his 15-page letter sparked something in me. 150 00:10:37,498 --> 00:10:41,917 I needed to find out the truth to what happened to my mom. 151 00:10:46,024 --> 00:10:48,371 I started by getting the police report. 152 00:10:48,475 --> 00:10:53,998 It was a three-inch thick file with tape on it. 153 00:10:54,377 --> 00:10:57,864 Red tape. Case-closed tape. 154 00:10:57,967 --> 00:11:00,314 And they cut the tape right there in front of me. 155 00:11:00,418 --> 00:11:05,112 And took the police report out. And they made me my copies. 156 00:11:05,216 --> 00:11:09,876 I had to take several days to read it through the first time, 157 00:11:09,979 --> 00:11:12,499 to start making notes. 158 00:11:12,879 --> 00:11:16,296 So this is the first version that Chuck gave 159 00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:18,229 regarding how my mom died. 160 00:11:18,332 --> 00:11:21,301 How does this make sense to an officer, 161 00:11:21,404 --> 00:11:25,305 somebody that knows firearms? It doesn't make sense. 162 00:11:26,858 --> 00:11:30,793 In the police report there were three versions 163 00:11:30,897 --> 00:11:33,451 of what Chuck told the police. 164 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:38,939 In the first one, she was drunk, so he had to take the gun away 165 00:11:39,043 --> 00:11:43,081 from her and he had grabbed the barrel of the gun. 166 00:11:43,185 --> 00:11:45,601 And the gun went off accidentally. 167 00:11:45,705 --> 00:11:50,019 In the second version, she got startled and dropped the gun 168 00:11:50,123 --> 00:11:54,058 and it just went off from the floor to her forehead. 169 00:11:54,161 --> 00:11:57,924 And then the third explanation was that he had to go to the 170 00:11:58,027 --> 00:12:01,030 bathroom and went outside. And when he came back in, 171 00:12:01,134 --> 00:12:05,069 she was posed with the gun in her hand. 172 00:12:05,172 --> 00:12:09,245 And Chuck alluded to my mother committing suicide. 173 00:12:11,420 --> 00:12:14,975 I was at my wit's end and 174 00:12:15,079 --> 00:12:17,909 felt I had no direction to go. 175 00:12:18,013 --> 00:12:20,187 It disgusted me to know that Chuck was living his 176 00:12:20,291 --> 00:12:24,467 best life in the bars with no accountability. 177 00:12:24,571 --> 00:12:29,265 I tried to block it out, but Fort Collins was a small town. 178 00:12:29,369 --> 00:12:33,166 There were a couple of times where our paths would cross, 179 00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:36,583 and I chose to look the other way. 180 00:12:36,686 --> 00:12:40,967 I chose a different avenue. 181 00:12:43,072 --> 00:12:45,730 I thought maybe I should go ahead 182 00:12:45,834 --> 00:12:48,353 and do some actual investigation. 183 00:12:48,457 --> 00:12:51,287 And so I began contacting people. 184 00:12:51,391 --> 00:12:54,428 I broke down a list of 185 00:12:54,532 --> 00:12:59,019 witnesses, sheriffs, DAs. 186 00:12:59,123 --> 00:13:04,128 And I set forth to contact almost everybody on those lists. 187 00:13:04,231 --> 00:13:08,580 I started with the coroners. 188 00:13:08,995 --> 00:13:12,999 One of the people I contacted was Dr. Agura. 189 00:13:13,102 --> 00:13:15,760 And he was very engaging 190 00:13:15,864 --> 00:13:18,867 and said he remembered my mom's case. 191 00:13:18,970 --> 00:13:21,145 He said that he remembered 192 00:13:21,248 --> 00:13:25,528 having to do a second autopsy on my mom. 193 00:13:26,253 --> 00:13:30,154 There was disagreement on the angle of the gun 194 00:13:30,257 --> 00:13:33,191 and whether or not it was her hand on the gun 195 00:13:33,295 --> 00:13:35,366 at the time it was fired. 196 00:13:36,574 --> 00:13:39,439 And he said the second autopsy 197 00:13:39,542 --> 00:13:45,238 was a considerable difference in opinion from the first autopsy. 198 00:13:46,860 --> 00:13:50,484 The angle of the first autopsy was not even plausible with 199 00:13:50,588 --> 00:13:54,523 Charlie's versions of the story. 200 00:13:55,179 --> 00:14:00,046 He was adamant that the first one had been botched. 201 00:14:02,393 --> 00:14:06,500 But a panel of six professionals decided that the differences 202 00:14:06,604 --> 00:14:11,057 in angles wasn't something that needed additional investigation. 203 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:15,578 They were going to rule mom's death as an accident. 204 00:14:15,682 --> 00:14:18,961 Case closed and they thought everything was done 205 00:14:19,065 --> 00:14:22,206 until I came around asking questions. 206 00:14:22,309 --> 00:14:26,969 I wanted to know what was in that second autopsy. 207 00:14:29,972 --> 00:14:32,216 So I called the coroner's office 208 00:14:32,319 --> 00:14:36,220 and I asked for them to take a look at this file again. 209 00:14:36,323 --> 00:14:38,947 They couldn't even find the file. 210 00:14:39,050 --> 00:14:40,500 There was nothing. 211 00:14:40,603 --> 00:14:43,572 It was referenced to a miscellaneous file. 212 00:14:43,675 --> 00:14:45,436 But the file was empty. 213 00:14:45,539 --> 00:14:47,990 And had been for years. 214 00:14:48,094 --> 00:14:52,063 And it felt like they just covered it up. 215 00:14:52,167 --> 00:14:54,997 There was no headway there. 216 00:14:56,654 --> 00:15:00,934 After the coroner's office, I stopped at Old Chicago 217 00:15:01,038 --> 00:15:03,350 and thought, you know, I'm gonna have a drink 218 00:15:03,454 --> 00:15:06,422 and it's a bartender's job to listen to my woes. 219 00:15:06,526 --> 00:15:09,046 [laughs] 220 00:15:09,770 --> 00:15:14,085 I was just pissed. You know, I left the coroner's office, 221 00:15:14,189 --> 00:15:16,570 and they don't show any records, you know? 222 00:15:16,674 --> 00:15:19,021 "Oh, well, we don't have any. We don't even show we-- 223 00:15:19,125 --> 00:15:20,781 We did this case." 224 00:15:20,885 --> 00:15:25,821 My name is Dianne Fairman. In 1995, I was bartending. 225 00:15:25,925 --> 00:15:29,273 And Lisa came into the bar and sat down 226 00:15:29,376 --> 00:15:32,276 kind of at the end of the bar, and just seemed 227 00:15:32,379 --> 00:15:36,142 a little distraught and upset. 228 00:15:36,245 --> 00:15:41,147 I began to tell her a brief rundown of my mom's homicide. 229 00:15:42,493 --> 00:15:46,117 I needed to find the truth and the answers. 230 00:15:46,221 --> 00:15:49,155 Sometimes people come into bars and they have tall tales. 231 00:15:49,258 --> 00:15:52,261 There was just something about you. 232 00:15:52,365 --> 00:15:55,437 I just listened and got more and more intrigued. 233 00:15:55,540 --> 00:15:57,473 And then when you said it was all in Larimer County, 234 00:15:57,577 --> 00:15:58,750 I'm like, "Oh." 235 00:15:58,854 --> 00:16:00,856 [laughing] 236 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,240 I said, "Well, strangely enough, I just happen to know the person 237 00:16:05,343 --> 00:16:07,138 you need to talk to because I'm interning 238 00:16:07,242 --> 00:16:10,107 at the coroner's office in Larimer County." 239 00:16:10,831 --> 00:16:14,180 [Lisa] Here I am looking to get some questions answered, 240 00:16:14,283 --> 00:16:18,563 and here she's an intern at the coroner's office. 241 00:16:18,667 --> 00:16:21,635 I couldn't believe it. Look at it how you will. 242 00:16:21,739 --> 00:16:27,503 I have no doubt that Mom sent me to Old Chicago that day. 243 00:16:27,779 --> 00:16:29,195 I went back and I just said, 244 00:16:29,298 --> 00:16:32,025 "Her story sounds very plausible. 245 00:16:32,129 --> 00:16:35,339 And I don't see, even as an intern, 246 00:16:35,442 --> 00:16:39,067 that this case doesn't deserve a second look. 247 00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:41,172 It just doesn't sound like it could have happened, 248 00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:44,313 you know, the way they're saying it happened." 249 00:16:44,555 --> 00:16:46,557 I realized who she needed to talk to. 250 00:16:46,660 --> 00:16:51,044 It would be the chief deputy coroner of Larimer County. 251 00:16:51,458 --> 00:16:54,254 When I went back to the office, I told him that I had met 252 00:16:54,358 --> 00:16:58,189 this woman, and she seemed very compelling and very honest. 253 00:16:58,293 --> 00:17:01,503 And had some interesting facts to tell him, 254 00:17:01,606 --> 00:17:05,300 and that he needed to listen to her. And he did. 255 00:17:05,403 --> 00:17:08,165 The Larimer County coroner called me back 256 00:17:08,268 --> 00:17:10,305 and said that they found the documents, 257 00:17:10,408 --> 00:17:13,204 which included the second autopsy. 258 00:17:13,308 --> 00:17:15,620 I was hoping maybe the second autopsy 259 00:17:15,724 --> 00:17:19,003 would have the truth and the answers. 260 00:17:19,107 --> 00:17:22,110 Lo and behold, it changed everything. 261 00:17:27,701 --> 00:17:32,223 [music] 262 00:17:32,327 --> 00:17:35,054 [Lisa] Once they found the second autopsy, 263 00:17:35,157 --> 00:17:39,437 I made contact with Fred Rosenberg. 264 00:17:39,541 --> 00:17:41,646 Fred Rosenberg was an investigator 265 00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:45,098 for the Larimer County Coroner's Office. 266 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:50,414 He compared both autopsies 267 00:17:50,517 --> 00:17:55,108 and did a skull diagram showing the bullet path. 268 00:17:56,420 --> 00:17:58,905 Fred said that the first autopsy 269 00:17:59,008 --> 00:18:02,253 wasn't as accurate as Dr. Agura's. 270 00:18:03,323 --> 00:18:06,154 It left a lot of doubt and questions. 271 00:18:07,707 --> 00:18:11,642 Fred wanted to go over this with me and asked if I could come in. 272 00:18:11,745 --> 00:18:15,163 So I went to Fred Rosenberg's office... 273 00:18:17,234 --> 00:18:20,029 Where he gave me copies of all notes, 274 00:18:20,133 --> 00:18:23,378 all reports, all of the photos. 275 00:18:23,481 --> 00:18:26,933 He went through all of them with me. 276 00:18:27,036 --> 00:18:30,074 It was very difficult initially, 277 00:18:30,178 --> 00:18:33,215 to view the death pictures. 278 00:18:34,458 --> 00:18:39,773 I was saddened that that's now 279 00:18:39,877 --> 00:18:41,741 how I'm gonna remember her. 280 00:18:41,844 --> 00:18:46,159 But I needed to step out of the 10-year-old Lisa 281 00:18:46,263 --> 00:18:49,335 and step into the investigator Lisa. 282 00:18:49,438 --> 00:18:51,130 It's all the same person, 283 00:18:51,233 --> 00:18:54,202 but it's two completely different roles. 284 00:18:54,305 --> 00:18:56,480 That's the only way I've gotten through this. 285 00:18:57,481 --> 00:19:01,968 [music] 286 00:19:02,555 --> 00:19:05,213 Fred took the paperwork and all of his sketches 287 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:07,836 and his analysis, and he took it to Dr. Allen, 288 00:19:07,939 --> 00:19:12,081 who was the chief medical examiner at the time. 289 00:19:12,185 --> 00:19:15,602 Dr. Allen looked at it and agreed wholeheartedly with Fred 290 00:19:15,706 --> 00:19:18,053 that this could not have happened the way 291 00:19:18,157 --> 00:19:20,400 the first autopsy says it happened. 292 00:19:20,504 --> 00:19:22,506 That it definitely was an investigation 293 00:19:22,609 --> 00:19:25,440 that needed new ballistics. 294 00:19:25,992 --> 00:19:29,892 The chief coroner reviewed all of the documents that 295 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:34,587 Fred had showed me. However, they did not have the gun 296 00:19:34,690 --> 00:19:38,142 because the sheriff's office purged evidence 297 00:19:38,246 --> 00:19:41,318 from their evidence room in 1978. 298 00:19:41,697 --> 00:19:44,493 Back then, the case wasn't a homicide, 299 00:19:44,597 --> 00:19:48,566 so they sold the gun in a big gun auction. 300 00:19:49,602 --> 00:19:53,330 So I set out to find a similar gun. 301 00:19:53,433 --> 00:19:55,470 I wanted to know the length of the barrel, 302 00:19:55,573 --> 00:19:57,299 the length of the handle with the cylinder, 303 00:19:57,403 --> 00:19:59,612 and how big the gun was. 304 00:19:59,715 --> 00:20:03,754 I had gone to local pawnshops and traced 305 00:20:03,857 --> 00:20:08,862 an HandR single action ...22 revolver. 306 00:20:08,966 --> 00:20:10,657 And this is what I got. 307 00:20:10,761 --> 00:20:14,351 I had to disprove all of Chuck Anderson's stories. 308 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,733 In the beginning, Chuck was saying that 309 00:20:17,837 --> 00:20:20,322 the gun went off accidentally. 310 00:20:20,426 --> 00:20:25,327 Well, the angle of entry in that second autopsy was 311 00:20:25,431 --> 00:20:28,123 above her ear and kind of to the back of her head, 312 00:20:28,227 --> 00:20:33,093 which couldn't have happened unless the gun was behind her. 313 00:20:33,197 --> 00:20:37,581 So I looked in the mirror and I held the paper gun up. 314 00:20:37,684 --> 00:20:41,930 And I'm like, there's no way her hand could have been on the gun 315 00:20:42,033 --> 00:20:46,106 with a six-inch barrel. 316 00:20:46,210 --> 00:20:48,833 Her wrist would have been broken. 317 00:20:48,937 --> 00:20:52,320 The angle disproved almost all of his versions. 318 00:20:52,423 --> 00:20:54,494 The gun falling to the floor 319 00:20:54,598 --> 00:20:59,119 or him taking the gun away from her by the barrel. 320 00:20:59,327 --> 00:21:01,467 And it wasn't suicide. 321 00:21:02,847 --> 00:21:05,229 Her hand could not have been on the gun 322 00:21:05,333 --> 00:21:08,784 at the time it was fired. Period. 323 00:21:10,061 --> 00:21:15,170 I went in and role played to prove that Mom's hand 324 00:21:15,274 --> 00:21:20,969 could not have been on the gun at that angle. It couldn't be. 325 00:21:21,072 --> 00:21:24,697 I showed Dr. Allen and he agreed with me. 326 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,251 Her hand could not have been on the gun 327 00:21:27,355 --> 00:21:29,874 without her hand being contorted. 328 00:21:31,531 --> 00:21:34,534 [Dianne] Fred and Dr. Allen and Lisa had, I think, 329 00:21:34,638 --> 00:21:38,745 several meetings. And Dr. Allen ultimately had enough evidence 330 00:21:38,849 --> 00:21:41,265 in front of him that he was able to say, 331 00:21:41,369 --> 00:21:44,303 "This isn't an accident." 332 00:21:44,579 --> 00:21:47,651 [Lisa] Within a couple of days, Patrick Allen had signed 333 00:21:47,754 --> 00:21:51,102 the death certificate to read suspicious for homicide, 334 00:21:51,206 --> 00:21:55,314 which is huge, huge, huge. 335 00:21:56,453 --> 00:21:59,904 Nobody gets the death certificate changed. 336 00:22:00,526 --> 00:22:06,117 It's terribly hard to get a death certificate changed. 337 00:22:06,221 --> 00:22:11,399 Finally, there's acknowledgment that I'm not the only one 338 00:22:11,502 --> 00:22:15,126 who believes that he killed her. 339 00:22:15,955 --> 00:22:17,784 And it's in writing. 340 00:22:17,888 --> 00:22:20,339 It's official. 341 00:22:23,203 --> 00:22:24,757 What a feat. 342 00:22:25,792 --> 00:22:27,794 What a feat. 343 00:22:29,727 --> 00:22:32,523 Now, is the sheriff's office 344 00:22:32,627 --> 00:22:35,388 gonna work on opening the investigation? 345 00:22:40,773 --> 00:22:43,292 [music] 346 00:22:43,396 --> 00:22:49,057 [Lisa] When the coroner signed the death certificate, 347 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,094 I'm thinking, all right. They'll reopen the investigation. 348 00:22:52,198 --> 00:22:56,513 It'll go to trial, and then I'll have justice. 349 00:22:56,616 --> 00:22:59,999 And there'll be justice for my mother. 350 00:23:01,759 --> 00:23:05,038 Absolutely, I thought that they would see what the coroner saw. 351 00:23:05,142 --> 00:23:07,351 But they didn't. 352 00:23:07,765 --> 00:23:09,974 When I spoke to the sheriff's investigator, 353 00:23:10,078 --> 00:23:14,254 he told me that he had interviewed Chuck Anderson 354 00:23:14,358 --> 00:23:18,500 recently and that he believed Chuck's explanation 355 00:23:18,604 --> 00:23:20,985 in the original police report. 356 00:23:21,089 --> 00:23:26,335 And he told me the case was going to be open, 357 00:23:26,439 --> 00:23:29,994 but inactive until there's new evidence. 358 00:23:30,098 --> 00:23:32,756 He wasn't going to work the file anymore. 359 00:23:35,310 --> 00:23:37,623 Another brick wall. 360 00:23:37,726 --> 00:23:40,039 I couldn't come in and do it for them, 361 00:23:40,142 --> 00:23:42,835 but I could get some more answers on my end. 362 00:23:42,938 --> 00:23:45,734 I continued to talk to people. 363 00:23:45,838 --> 00:23:50,739 [music] 364 00:23:50,843 --> 00:23:54,674 I was up near Horsetooth. 365 00:23:55,537 --> 00:23:58,022 And I stopped to buy a lighter. 366 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:00,991 And I go in. 367 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,512 And who's standing next to me, but Chuck, 368 00:24:04,615 --> 00:24:07,722 counting pennies for a pack of cigarettes. 369 00:24:11,967 --> 00:24:13,969 I hadn't seen him. 370 00:24:14,073 --> 00:24:15,384 Didn't want to. 371 00:24:15,488 --> 00:24:19,147 But there he was ruining my day. 372 00:24:20,044 --> 00:24:21,563 He didn't see me. 373 00:24:21,667 --> 00:24:25,015 So I got my lighter, and I got in my little minivan, 374 00:24:25,118 --> 00:24:27,535 and I sat in the parking lot and I shook. 375 00:24:27,638 --> 00:24:30,227 Oh, my God, did I shake. 376 00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:32,678 Do I [bleep] run him over? 377 00:24:32,781 --> 00:24:34,576 What do I do? Do I follow him? 378 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,267 What do I do? 379 00:24:36,371 --> 00:24:39,581 I watched him go into a bar. 380 00:24:39,961 --> 00:24:42,135 And so I walked in. I walked right up to him. 381 00:24:42,239 --> 00:24:45,587 And then he announces to the bar that I'm his long lost daughter. 382 00:24:45,691 --> 00:24:48,003 Haven't seen me for years. And this and this. 383 00:24:48,107 --> 00:24:53,008 And I said, "There is an empty table back there. You and I, 384 00:24:53,112 --> 00:24:56,874 back there now." And he came and sat down with me. 385 00:24:57,185 --> 00:25:01,741 I listened to his story of where he put my mom's ashes. 386 00:25:01,845 --> 00:25:05,780 And I knew it was a lie because Chuck bragged at the bars 387 00:25:05,883 --> 00:25:11,406 that he took my mom's ashes and threw them into a garbage pit 388 00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:14,167 next to his pigpen. 389 00:25:14,271 --> 00:25:16,825 Eventually, I told Chuck 390 00:25:16,929 --> 00:25:21,485 I wanted something of my mother's, anything. 391 00:25:21,589 --> 00:25:24,143 And so we went back to his house. 392 00:25:27,008 --> 00:25:29,217 It was chilling. 393 00:25:29,562 --> 00:25:31,184 But I know he's not going to kill me. 394 00:25:31,288 --> 00:25:33,566 I'm too friggin' mean. 395 00:25:33,877 --> 00:25:38,088 We sat down and he opened his little file drawer, 396 00:25:38,191 --> 00:25:42,506 and pulled out the deed to Mom's land. 397 00:25:43,058 --> 00:25:46,165 He held on to it like a frickin' trophy. 398 00:25:46,268 --> 00:25:50,169 Of course, it had been sold in probate. You know, no value 399 00:25:50,272 --> 00:25:53,586 other than that was a piece of paper that was in her purse. 400 00:25:53,690 --> 00:25:56,002 And I got it back. 401 00:25:56,106 --> 00:25:59,558 And he didn't get to keep the trophy. 402 00:25:59,868 --> 00:26:03,941 After seeing the deed to the land, I started questioning 403 00:26:04,045 --> 00:26:08,774 if Chuck's motive was a monetary value. 404 00:26:08,877 --> 00:26:12,087 I don't know. Maybe he wanted to try and get her livestock, 405 00:26:12,191 --> 00:26:15,021 her land, and it was all about the money 406 00:26:15,125 --> 00:26:17,368 because they weren't together for love. 407 00:26:17,472 --> 00:26:19,094 That's for sure. 408 00:26:19,198 --> 00:26:22,753 Several people had made mention that Chuck 409 00:26:22,857 --> 00:26:26,585 wanted to take a life insurance policy out on her, 410 00:26:26,688 --> 00:26:29,622 which started the big fight in the bar 411 00:26:29,726 --> 00:26:33,350 because he wanted to be the beneficiary. 412 00:26:33,453 --> 00:26:37,043 And Mom wanted Paula and I to be the beneficiary. 413 00:26:37,147 --> 00:26:38,735 They were only married nine days, 414 00:26:38,838 --> 00:26:41,185 so she really got uncomfortable 415 00:26:41,289 --> 00:26:43,671 and really regretted marrying him. 416 00:26:43,774 --> 00:26:48,296 And really wanted out, and wanted him to go away. 417 00:26:48,399 --> 00:26:50,954 But he would not go. 418 00:26:53,473 --> 00:26:56,649 I had Chuck Anderson's motive, but it felt like 419 00:26:56,753 --> 00:26:59,341 it didn't matter. We can never hit the D.A. 420 00:26:59,445 --> 00:27:03,863 if the police don't do their portion. That's it. 421 00:27:03,967 --> 00:27:05,900 That's as far as we go. 422 00:27:06,003 --> 00:27:10,180 I'm questioning will we ever see whatever justice is. 423 00:27:13,735 --> 00:27:17,808 Chuck Anderson took everything from me 424 00:27:17,912 --> 00:27:20,915 and took everything from my sister, Paula. 425 00:27:21,018 --> 00:27:24,470 All the things that Paula endured in her years of 426 00:27:24,573 --> 00:27:28,716 placement and my mom's death, 427 00:27:28,819 --> 00:27:33,513 it even went as far as Paula committing suicide. 428 00:27:33,617 --> 00:27:38,898 She was a very troubled person and saw no other way out. 429 00:27:39,002 --> 00:27:42,730 I will always think Chuck's responsible for that. 430 00:27:51,083 --> 00:27:56,985 In 2001, I was working for a gun scope company 431 00:27:57,089 --> 00:28:02,370 and somebody made mention that they had seen an article 432 00:28:02,473 --> 00:28:05,304 written about my mom's death. 433 00:28:05,407 --> 00:28:10,654 And in it they too, alluded to suicide. 434 00:28:11,241 --> 00:28:13,243 And that was one of my biggest peeves. 435 00:28:13,346 --> 00:28:16,004 So I called the Longmont Daily Times, 436 00:28:16,108 --> 00:28:19,249 and I asked for them to do a retraction. 437 00:28:19,352 --> 00:28:24,357 And I wait seven months before I just had, had it. 438 00:28:24,461 --> 00:28:26,670 And I went in to the Longmont Daily Times, 439 00:28:26,774 --> 00:28:30,122 and I ran into DeeDee Correll. 440 00:28:30,225 --> 00:28:35,644 There are certain details that I do remember very well. 441 00:28:35,748 --> 00:28:38,578 Like you storming into the paper wanting to-- 442 00:28:38,682 --> 00:28:41,616 For me, it was... 443 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,688 I'm dialing direct. 444 00:28:45,275 --> 00:28:47,898 It's not uncommon for a newspaper to get 445 00:28:48,002 --> 00:28:50,729 people coming in who are unhappy with something. 446 00:28:50,832 --> 00:28:54,008 And sometimes there is not much to their claims. 447 00:28:54,111 --> 00:28:56,320 And in this case, Lisa was fired up, 448 00:28:56,424 --> 00:28:59,807 but she also had all the documentation to support 449 00:28:59,910 --> 00:29:04,466 her grievance that the word suicide had been used. 450 00:29:04,570 --> 00:29:06,261 I don't mind you doing an article on my mom. 451 00:29:06,365 --> 00:29:08,229 Just make it factual. 452 00:29:08,332 --> 00:29:11,197 Because if I die, somebody is gonna look at this and say, 453 00:29:11,301 --> 00:29:13,475 -"It was suicide." - I would feel the same way. 454 00:29:15,167 --> 00:29:17,928 [DeeDee] I went through all the reports 455 00:29:18,032 --> 00:29:21,035 and corrected some mistakes made in the coverage. 456 00:29:21,138 --> 00:29:24,245 And actually in looking back at my notes, 457 00:29:24,348 --> 00:29:26,972 I noticed there were a number of contradictions in 458 00:29:27,075 --> 00:29:29,491 Charles Anderson's statements against what I knew 459 00:29:29,595 --> 00:29:32,011 was in the police reports. 460 00:29:32,115 --> 00:29:36,567 The story would not be complete without his version. 461 00:29:36,671 --> 00:29:40,330 We had to make the effort to try to talk to him. 462 00:29:40,433 --> 00:29:44,334 I remember you were gonna go up there. 463 00:29:44,437 --> 00:29:48,648 I said, "Don't go out there alone." 464 00:29:48,752 --> 00:29:51,065 [DeeDee] I didn't have anyone available at the paper 465 00:29:51,168 --> 00:29:56,587 that day to go with me, so I got my dad to go with me. 466 00:29:56,691 --> 00:30:01,247 When I arrived, we had some concerns about Mr. Anderson. 467 00:30:01,351 --> 00:30:04,699 He had stickers on the outside of his door, 468 00:30:04,803 --> 00:30:07,771 making sure that everyone knew that he had weapons inside, 469 00:30:07,875 --> 00:30:09,566 but we had to make the effort. 470 00:30:09,669 --> 00:30:14,053 Mr. Anderson was drinking a beer and watching a show on TV. 471 00:30:14,157 --> 00:30:16,780 I think it was the Golden Girls. 472 00:30:16,884 --> 00:30:18,886 He invited me in. He was friendly. 473 00:30:18,989 --> 00:30:23,338 And he seemed willing to talk. And so I started off 474 00:30:23,442 --> 00:30:26,341 by asking him just some questions about the case. 475 00:30:26,445 --> 00:30:30,483 Immediately, he began to say things that contradicted 476 00:30:30,587 --> 00:30:32,969 what was in the police reports. 477 00:30:33,072 --> 00:30:37,836 And finally, at some point just said, "What happened? 478 00:30:37,939 --> 00:30:41,046 How did she die? How did she get shot?" 479 00:30:41,149 --> 00:30:45,429 And that was where he looked up. He looked at me and he said, 480 00:30:45,533 --> 00:30:47,984 "Well, she didn't shoot herself." 481 00:30:52,126 --> 00:30:55,543 [music] 482 00:30:55,646 --> 00:30:58,270 I remember you calling me back, 483 00:30:58,373 --> 00:31:01,307 "Lisa, you'll never believe it. He said that her hand 484 00:31:01,411 --> 00:31:04,069 wasn't on the gun at the time it was fired 485 00:31:04,172 --> 00:31:06,623 and that she didn't shoot herself." 486 00:31:06,726 --> 00:31:10,558 It was very chilling to me. It was just very direct. 487 00:31:10,661 --> 00:31:14,458 What he was saying to me was that he had shot her. 488 00:31:14,562 --> 00:31:17,668 It was, to me, a stunning admission. 489 00:31:17,772 --> 00:31:21,120 As soon as I left, I called up the sheriff's office and I said, 490 00:31:21,224 --> 00:31:25,435 "Listen, here's what he said to me. And what's your comment?" 491 00:31:25,538 --> 00:31:29,784 And the lieutenant said, "Well, I'm not gonna tell you my 492 00:31:29,888 --> 00:31:34,582 comment based on what you just said. I'm reopening the case." 493 00:31:36,549 --> 00:31:39,414 [Andy] It's not appropriate for me to, to judge 494 00:31:39,518 --> 00:31:41,520 maybe what wasn't done in the past. 495 00:31:41,623 --> 00:31:45,731 I wasn't around in 1973 as far as police work. 496 00:31:45,834 --> 00:31:48,527 But in the 2000s when it came up again 497 00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:51,530 with DeeDee Carroll from the Longmont Times call. 498 00:31:51,633 --> 00:31:55,844 I was surprised and maybe a little skeptical at first, 499 00:31:55,948 --> 00:31:58,054 you know. 500 00:31:58,157 --> 00:32:02,921 Okay, this is the media calling to tell me something. 501 00:32:04,198 --> 00:32:06,441 I was intrigued by what DeeDee had to say 502 00:32:06,545 --> 00:32:08,547 because he was making a statement 503 00:32:08,650 --> 00:32:11,964 he had never made before. And that changed everything. 504 00:32:12,551 --> 00:32:15,312 Here's the evidence to explain the inconsistencies 505 00:32:15,416 --> 00:32:19,385 with the story that Nina had pulled the trigger herself, 506 00:32:19,489 --> 00:32:21,940 that seemed at the time that he was a bit brazen. 507 00:32:22,043 --> 00:32:24,839 And he'd gotten away with it all these years. 508 00:32:24,943 --> 00:32:26,910 He bragged in the bars all these years, 509 00:32:27,014 --> 00:32:28,325 but nobody ever-- 510 00:32:28,429 --> 00:32:29,464 - Came forward. - Reported it. 511 00:32:29,568 --> 00:32:31,121 Right, right. 512 00:32:31,225 --> 00:32:33,710 We had information that might finally make a difference. 513 00:32:33,813 --> 00:32:38,784 So we were able to put an investigation together. 514 00:32:38,887 --> 00:32:43,306 And I assigned the case to Investigator Robert Coleman. 515 00:32:43,409 --> 00:32:47,620 And he began to look at the case again with fresh eyes. 516 00:32:47,724 --> 00:32:49,864 My hopes were very high that Bob Coleman was 517 00:32:49,968 --> 00:32:52,108 gonna be able to do this. 518 00:32:52,211 --> 00:32:58,010 So I met with him and I got his file back up to speed. 519 00:32:58,114 --> 00:33:01,358 And I was really for the first time in years 520 00:33:01,462 --> 00:33:05,086 feeling that I would get justice. 521 00:33:07,088 --> 00:33:10,229 Robert Coleman was pretty renowned as a 522 00:33:10,333 --> 00:33:12,128 very good interviewer. 523 00:33:12,231 --> 00:33:14,026 He was the best interviewer we had. 524 00:33:14,130 --> 00:33:16,995 So the key in this case was 525 00:33:17,098 --> 00:33:20,584 for Investigator Coleman to bring 526 00:33:20,688 --> 00:33:23,656 Chuck Anderson into the office, into an interview room 527 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,556 that we could control... 528 00:33:27,833 --> 00:33:31,733 To prove that his story, his narrative wasn't right. 529 00:33:42,779 --> 00:33:44,815 [Andy] Because this case had so many different versions, 530 00:33:44,919 --> 00:33:47,197 it was important to start broad 531 00:33:47,301 --> 00:33:52,271 and narrow down to those facts that were disputed. 532 00:33:52,375 --> 00:33:55,274 And ultimately the fact of who had their finger on the trigger. 533 00:34:04,732 --> 00:34:07,700 In the course of the interview, there is a point where 534 00:34:07,804 --> 00:34:10,772 Undersheriff Hudson explained it couldn't have occurred 535 00:34:10,876 --> 00:34:13,396 in the ways that you had described in the past. 536 00:34:13,499 --> 00:34:16,226 And here's the evidence, and here's the evidence. 537 00:34:24,476 --> 00:34:28,273 [Lisa] The detectives told me that Bob Coleman 538 00:34:28,376 --> 00:34:32,208 had spent five hours interviewing Chuck Anderson. 539 00:34:32,311 --> 00:34:35,970 They had put up a whiteboard outside the room, 540 00:34:36,074 --> 00:34:38,938 and every time they got him to disprove 541 00:34:39,042 --> 00:34:41,562 a version of one of his stories. 542 00:34:43,736 --> 00:34:46,774 [Lisa] They would go outside and check it off the whiteboard. 543 00:34:47,326 --> 00:34:49,535 [Andy] There is only one truth, clearly. 544 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,159 And that made the ultimate difference in this case. 545 00:34:52,262 --> 00:34:55,679 There is only one truth, and he had to come to it. 546 00:34:55,783 --> 00:35:00,132 Leading him to a point where he quietly says, "You're right." 547 00:35:22,085 --> 00:35:26,676 He finally admitted that he shot Nina. 548 00:35:38,584 --> 00:35:42,312 [music] 549 00:35:42,416 --> 00:35:44,245 [Lisa] Chuck Anderson had spent years 550 00:35:44,349 --> 00:35:47,662 lying about what he had done, 551 00:35:47,766 --> 00:35:51,770 but I felt for the first time, vindicated. 552 00:35:51,873 --> 00:35:57,155 It was actually the 30th anniversary of my mom's murder. 553 00:35:58,225 --> 00:36:01,159 The DA's office said that they had enough 554 00:36:01,262 --> 00:36:03,713 to go forward with an arrest warrant. 555 00:36:03,816 --> 00:36:06,509 And I never thought I'd see that. 556 00:36:11,238 --> 00:36:14,724 [music] 557 00:36:14,827 --> 00:36:18,693 [Lisa] I remember the detectives called me to let me know that 558 00:36:18,797 --> 00:36:23,629 right now, as we are speaking, they're placing the handcuffs 559 00:36:23,733 --> 00:36:28,910 on Charles Anderson for the murder of my mother. 560 00:36:29,014 --> 00:36:32,190 I could hear the sound of the cuffs clicking 561 00:36:32,293 --> 00:36:35,193 and I cannot tell you how elated that made me. 562 00:36:35,296 --> 00:36:37,471 He didn't get away with it. 563 00:36:37,574 --> 00:36:39,714 And that was the most beautiful thing. 564 00:36:39,818 --> 00:36:44,202 After all those years, it was actually gonna make it to court. 565 00:36:46,756 --> 00:36:50,311 We went into court and Chuck actually had three lawyers 566 00:36:50,415 --> 00:36:52,762 that went into court with him. 567 00:36:52,865 --> 00:36:56,800 I knew that he would fight to get it dismissed. 568 00:36:56,904 --> 00:37:01,322 And I just want him to spend some time in jail. 569 00:37:01,426 --> 00:37:04,601 [Andy] It was almost like this was the last shot 570 00:37:04,705 --> 00:37:07,846 at a successful conclusion. 571 00:37:07,949 --> 00:37:11,643 But I knew we had evidence that he couldn't run away from. 572 00:37:11,746 --> 00:37:14,542 Justice needed to be served regardless of 573 00:37:14,646 --> 00:37:17,165 the time that had gone by. 574 00:37:17,269 --> 00:37:20,859 [Lisa] I'm feeling that this is really gonna go somewhere. 575 00:37:20,962 --> 00:37:23,758 And the next day the whole bottom drops out. 576 00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:31,007 I got a call from the district attorney's office 577 00:37:31,110 --> 00:37:36,184 saying that they were going to offer him a plea bargain. 578 00:37:36,288 --> 00:37:40,706 They charged him with second-degree murder. 579 00:37:40,810 --> 00:37:45,504 And they were going to allow him plea bargain to manslaughter. 580 00:37:45,608 --> 00:37:49,232 The law's applicable in '73 581 00:37:49,336 --> 00:37:53,754 were not the same as in 2003. 582 00:37:53,857 --> 00:37:58,724 So they had to use the laws that were applicable in 1973, 583 00:37:58,828 --> 00:38:01,589 which gave a lot more good time credit. 584 00:38:01,693 --> 00:38:06,111 They were less restrictive in the sentencing. 585 00:38:06,698 --> 00:38:09,770 And they were telling me that they were going to offer him 586 00:38:09,873 --> 00:38:12,393 a one-year sentence. 587 00:38:13,843 --> 00:38:17,536 [Andy] Because the case was now decades old for the 588 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,471 district attorney's office. They didn't have what you need 589 00:38:21,575 --> 00:38:24,647 to get a good, strong long sentence. 590 00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:29,583 Then they just end up settling for what you can get. 591 00:38:29,686 --> 00:38:33,241 [Lisa] There was a possibility that it would be thrown out of 592 00:38:33,345 --> 00:38:36,590 court and we would have never been able to take it back. 593 00:38:36,693 --> 00:38:39,351 So I had to be thankful for what I got. 594 00:38:39,455 --> 00:38:41,111 It sickened me. 595 00:38:41,215 --> 00:38:43,113 But it's what we had. 596 00:38:46,151 --> 00:38:50,914 I think in the end I wanted him to say he was guilty. 597 00:38:51,018 --> 00:38:55,540 I wanted him for the first [bleep] time in his life 598 00:38:55,643 --> 00:39:00,407 to own that he killed my mom in an open courtroom 599 00:39:00,510 --> 00:39:04,859 to the judge and me in the courtroom. 600 00:39:06,965 --> 00:39:10,106 August 14th was my mom's birthday. 601 00:39:10,209 --> 00:39:14,248 The next day, we went in the courtroom for his sentencing, 602 00:39:14,352 --> 00:39:19,909 where Chuck was supposed to say guilty, 603 00:39:20,012 --> 00:39:24,569 in order to get the one-year sentence. 604 00:39:24,672 --> 00:39:30,160 But he stood there and he said, "Nolo contendere." 605 00:39:31,127 --> 00:39:32,887 I couldn't believe it. 606 00:39:32,991 --> 00:39:35,925 Nolo contendere means no contest. 607 00:39:37,927 --> 00:39:41,931 And everybody in the courtroom gasped. 608 00:39:44,589 --> 00:39:47,868 The judge said, "I'm gonna take that plea 609 00:39:47,971 --> 00:39:52,424 as a guilty plea based on the agreement that 610 00:39:52,528 --> 00:39:56,083 you reached with the district attorney's office." 611 00:39:56,186 --> 00:40:00,881 But it was just insulting. 612 00:40:00,984 --> 00:40:05,264 With time served while we were waiting to go to court, 613 00:40:05,368 --> 00:40:10,131 by the time they actually got him down to 614 00:40:10,235 --> 00:40:12,720 Four Mile Correctional Facility, 615 00:40:12,824 --> 00:40:17,173 he only spent five weeks imprisoned. 616 00:40:21,177 --> 00:40:24,525 After Chuck got out of prison, the people in his hometown 617 00:40:24,629 --> 00:40:27,183 didn't want him around. 618 00:40:27,286 --> 00:40:32,257 He had difficulties finding people that accepted him. 619 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,364 And a few years ago, he died. 620 00:40:36,468 --> 00:40:42,232 And it was a relief to know that Chuck's no longer on the streets 621 00:40:42,336 --> 00:40:45,270 and he can no longer hurt anybody. 622 00:40:45,373 --> 00:40:48,549 [Andy] Quite frankly, you presenting your evidence 623 00:40:48,653 --> 00:40:51,518 to them the way you did was a key component. 624 00:40:51,621 --> 00:40:53,554 You were the driver all that time. 625 00:40:53,658 --> 00:40:55,349 You're a hell of an investigator. 626 00:40:55,453 --> 00:40:56,419 Thank you. 627 00:40:56,523 --> 00:40:57,869 You're a hell of an investigator. 628 00:40:57,972 --> 00:41:00,561 You were my ally. 629 00:41:00,665 --> 00:41:03,840 I am so glad to hear that. Thank you. 630 00:41:09,190 --> 00:41:12,090 I dislike the word closure 631 00:41:12,193 --> 00:41:16,508 because there's so many open wounds. There is answers. 632 00:41:16,612 --> 00:41:19,097 There is time that passes that helps make things 633 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,409 a little easier. 634 00:41:21,513 --> 00:41:23,757 But there's no closure. 635 00:41:23,860 --> 00:41:25,517 There's still the gaping hole of missing 636 00:41:25,621 --> 00:41:28,658 the person that you loved. 637 00:41:28,762 --> 00:41:32,800 It never changes. It doesn't go away. 638 00:41:32,904 --> 00:41:37,322 I am--I'm glad that I got done what I got done. 639 00:41:37,425 --> 00:41:40,014 It's huge, really. 640 00:41:40,118 --> 00:41:42,016 It's monumental. 641 00:41:45,675 --> 00:41:48,471 I had the truth on my side. 642 00:41:48,575 --> 00:41:51,612 I had my mom on my side. 643 00:41:51,716 --> 00:41:53,614 I felt she was there. 644 00:41:53,718 --> 00:41:57,100 And I got to say what she couldn't say. 645 00:41:57,204 --> 00:42:00,621 It was the gift that I could give her. 646 00:42:03,486 --> 00:42:07,248 And I believe that she watched it all. 647 00:42:07,352 --> 00:42:09,457 And I know she's proud of me. 648 00:42:09,561 --> 00:42:13,600 Which makes the 10-year-old Lisa 649 00:42:13,703 --> 00:42:16,292 happy to know... 650 00:42:16,395 --> 00:42:18,087 Mom's proud. 651 00:42:18,190 --> 00:42:22,609 [music] 652 00:42:27,130 --> 00:42:33,102 [music] 653 00:42:57,264 --> 00:42:59,715 There is something excruciatingly terrifying 654 00:42:59,818 --> 00:43:01,820 about 50 victims. 655 00:43:01,924 --> 00:43:03,270 On the season finale of 656 00:43:03,373 --> 00:43:04,789 "True Crime Story: Citizen Detective"... 657 00:43:06,135 --> 00:43:08,516 We have this killer and at least eight victims 658 00:43:08,793 --> 00:43:11,140 who have never been identified. 659 00:43:11,243 --> 00:43:12,935 Families don't know what happened to their loved ones. 660 00:43:13,038 --> 00:43:15,316 Nothing's going to stop me from further investigating. 661 00:43:16,973 --> 00:43:19,804 Maybe I can find something the FBI couldn't. 662 00:43:19,907 --> 00:43:22,323 "True Crime Story: Citizen Detective." 663 00:43:22,461 --> 00:43:24,671 ♪