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This programme contains some
strong language from the start
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and scenes which some viewers
may find disturbing
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The judge will be sat there.
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The jury's going to be over there.
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And the defendants,
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they're going
to be behind a screen there.
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But you won't be in here.
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You'll be in a separate room with me.
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Can I go out for a fag, on the day?
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Course you can. When there's a break.
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What if I need the toilet?
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Have I got to hold it in?
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If you need to stop,
all you have to do is ask.
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Store your movies and series on HELIOS4
Open Source NAS - Visit us on KOBOL.IO
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Ruby is pregnant.
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13-year-old on the
Child Protection Register.
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Pregnant by a mid-30s man
with a family of his own.
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I can tell you his name,
his address, his licence plate.
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'We can get convictions here, Maggie,
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'if we can re-engage the girls.'
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So, you want me to help you?
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Yeah, we do. You never helped me.
Why would I do that?
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If a jury's not going to believe her?
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Why are we making that assumption?
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'Holly was fully aware that this
would be the outcome.
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'She'll be in foster care
while we assess the situation.'
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I can't do no more.
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You can.
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They're not using Amber,
but they're going to use Ruby.
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I'm not using anyone.
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'Nine not-guilty pleas.
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'Which means nine cross-examinations,
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'which means nine different barristers
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'telling these girls that every word
they're saying is a lie.'
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Are they up to it?
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Bye.
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Bye.
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It is mad there.
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What is?
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Court!
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But I won't be in
the actual court on the day,
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I'll be in a room on me own.
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Come on.
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Let's go and get some of Nana's cake.
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Mmm.
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It's all about supporting me
through the process.
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Well,
that's what the copper kept on saying.
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And I can go out for a fag, too.
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If they didn't want me to be a witness,
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why did they, like,
beg me to do in first place?
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I don't want her doing it.
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It's her saying she don't want all
them interviews going to waste.
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Mine did. Months of them.
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Do you know what?
I really, really, really
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don't give a fuck.
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I thought I'd see Hell freeze over
before this got to trial.
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Today's going to be
about swearing in the jury
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and Rachel, our prosecution barrister,
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standing up and outlining our case.
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Holly,
you're the first witness for the Crown,
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so you'll be called first.
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So, depending on what gets done today,
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in all likelihood you'll be going in
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to start giving your evidence tomorrow.
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We'll need to phone Suzanne.
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Who's Suzanne?
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I have to do stuff.
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Go to AA meetings and that
to get Ella back.
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They write it down if you miss one.
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You're not going to see any of them.
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You know that, don't you?
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It'll all be by video link
and you're just going to carry on
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doing what you've been doing for years.
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Telling the truth.
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And those 12 ordinary men and women
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are going to believe you.
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Right.
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I'll see you bright and early tomorrow.
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Scum! Paedo!
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Get back to your own country!
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You're going down, you Paki bastard!
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He's the Paki bastard who brought
the prosecution, you dickhead.
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Cheers, but don't call me
a "Paki bastard" again. Sorry.
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All rise.
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It's started.
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It's on BBC website.
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Front page of Manchester Evening News.
Jim.
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Let's keep busy today, eh?
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Fancy going down the shops
for a few bits and bobs?
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I might just go upstairs.
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Holly Winshaw is now 19.
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At the start of the time period
with which you are concerned,
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she was 15 years old,
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and at the end of that period,
she was 17.
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Ruby Bowen is now 16.
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Her 13th birthday was two days
before the start
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of the indictment period,
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and at the end of that period,
she was 15.
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You will hear evidence about these
girls' personal circumstances
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and their behaviour.
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Holly Winshaw had fallen out
with her parents
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and was mostly living away from home
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when the sexual exploitation
of her began.
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Ruby Bowen had had a difficult
and troubled childhood
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and has a number of problems
as a result.
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You will have to decide,
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having heard their
own descriptions of themselves
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and the descriptions of other people,
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whether their characters
and their behaviour
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makes them unreliable witnesses
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as some of the defendants may say.
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Or whether as the prosecution say,
it simply confirms
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that they were exactly
the sort of children
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who were easy to identify,
target and exploit
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for the sexual gratification
of these men.
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'Amber Bowen, the older sister
of Ruby Bowen, is now 19.
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'The prosecution will argue
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'that she's an important person
in this case.
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'She was also having sex with adult men
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'and getting food and alcohol
for doing so,'
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but she moved on to playing
an active role in helping men
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including some of these defendants
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to sexually exploit the other girls.
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That, ladies and gentlemen,
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is the outline of the prosecution
case that we'll put before you,
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starting with the first witness,
Holly Winshaw, tomorrow morning.
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Hiya.
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Is she ready?
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I can't say she is, no.
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Do you want to?
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She won't get dressed. I'm sorry.
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Hiya.
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Have you had any breakfast?
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Well, I've not.
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What are we having?
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Bacon butty.
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Two of them, then, please, Julie.
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The whole bloody country's
waiting on this trial
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and she's up there having a lie-in!
Nina knows what she's doing.
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No point pushing her until she's ready.
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Where is she?
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Worth giving Nina a ring?
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Andrew Norfolk, from The Times.
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Looks like the first witness hasn't
turned up. I'll phone back later.
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Andrew, every time I open The Times,
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there's your by-line on grooming.
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It's a big story. Is it?
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Is it a big story?
Or does it just seem that way
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because there's so much reporting on it?
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You must admit, it's a gift for
the BNP and all that lot out there.
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"Innocent white victims",
"dark-skinned abusers".
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It's uncomfortable, isn't it?
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I just don't see what it achieves.
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She's here.
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Ignore them, ignore them,
ignore them and ignore them.
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Take a seat.
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They need to hear you,
but they don't need to see you.
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Would you like a curtain?
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No.
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Hello, Holly.
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Can you see and hear me?
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Yes.
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OK, that's a good start.
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The usher should help you
to swear an oath.
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Has that been explained to you?
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Er, rather than gestures, Holly,
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you'll have to speak words
for ease of the transcribers.
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Yeah.
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"I swear, by Almighty God,
that the evidence I shall give
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shall be the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth."
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Members of the jury,
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the prosecution will now present
its evidence in chief,
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which takes the form
of recorded interviews
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with the witness, Holly Winshaw.
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Now do you understand what it is
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that you've come to speak
to me about today?
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Yeah.
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OK, and what do you think that's about?
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About what happened at, um
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withthe menat Top Curry.
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About what happened
with the men at Top Curry.
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OK. Obviously,
I've got to ask you some questions
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about what they actually
did to you during the sex, OK?
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It hurt.
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Because I didn't want to do it.
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Tariq started taking us places.
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He started picking us up and
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Amber thought that he was her boyfriend.
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So, what did you think was going
to happen when he picked you up?
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I didn't actually know
he was taking us to have sex.
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He said, "Don't cry" and he said,
"You're beautiful".
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And so, when he got on top of you,
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what was you doing?
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I were trying to move
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but I just gave up.
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Because what was the point in trying?
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And what did you think about the fact
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that it started then with different men?
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I weren't even bothered any more.
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Right, what do you mean by that?
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I didn't feel anything about it.
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Why do you think you felt like that?
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Because it had been going on
for so long.'
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I want to ask you some questions today
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on behalf of Shabir Ahmed,
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who you were introduced to
by a nickname "Daddy"?
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Before I ask you about
what you say Daddy did,
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I want to ask you something
about your background.
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What caused the big falling out
you had with your parents,
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in around June 2008?
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I didn't really stick to the rules.
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And you were going out with a gang
of girls at night, were you not?
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00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:23,880
Yeah.
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00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,040
You were free-loading, were you not?
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Getting free booze.
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So, alcohol and money?
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00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:33,120
Yeah.
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And then, mocking them.
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00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,980
Creating problems in
Speedy Kebab and Top Curry?
220
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:42,000
I wouldn't say that
I was creating problems.
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Was there not a crowd of you
that was going to Speedy Kebab,
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drunk and loud
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and behaving very badly?
224
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There's wasn't a crowd of us.
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There was about two or three at a time
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and it was the men in the takeaway shop
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that bought us the alcohol
to get drunk on.
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I want you to understand
that I am going to be suggesting
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that Daddy never gave you or bought you
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00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,440
any alcohol at all
over that period or any other time.
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That is the truth of the matter,
is it not?
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00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:14,880
No.
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You told the police that
when he was trying to rape you,
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00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,400
you were trying to,
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"like, laugh it off,
giggling and saying no."
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Is that right?
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Well, yeah.
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I was trying to say no in, like,
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a giggly way.
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Because I didn't want to say it in,
like, a stern way, cos
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I didn't want to offend him.
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And I was scared.
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Because if I said it,
like, nastily to him,
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I didn't know what he would do,
so I just, like
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But he just didn't stop.
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Have you got a tissue there, Holly?
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Thanks.
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00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,840
Had you not tried to shout for help
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if this was happening?
You were being raped.
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I didn't want to say anything
because I was scared.
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00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,040
This incident did not happen,
did it, Holly?
252
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:44,280
Yeah, it did.
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00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,240
You say that you were shouting,
"Get off me"? Yeah.
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00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:51,560
It could not have been the case
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that what you were
actually shouting was,
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"Tell that bastard to give me my money"?
257
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:57,200
No.
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No, because that would suggest,
would it not,
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that what you were upset about
260
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,160
was not being paid, rather than the sex.
261
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:07,760
Do you remember calling my client
a "Paki bastard"?
262
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,240
I wouldn't.
263
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,000
I wouldn't say something like that.
264
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,440
I suggest to you, Miss Winshaw,
that at the time of these events,
265
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,080
your life was a bit of a mess,
was it not?
266
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,520
You were out getting drunk regularly,
were you not? Yeah.
267
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,800
And you had been in
so many different places
268
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,640
on so many different nights
with so many different men,
269
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,200
that you simply made a mistake,
270
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,040
did you not? No.
271
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,920
Can you describe the man you call
"Tiger" to me, Holly.
272
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,240
You said, "He's Asian, obviously.
273
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,960
"He's got, like,
a side parting in his hair.
274
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,480
"Like a lot of them, small."
275
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,640
I think that's his height you're
talking about there, is it not?
276
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:05,560
Not long to go now. You're doing great.
277
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,640
Just hold your nerve. One more day.
278
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,040
My lovely girls!
279
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,720
'You're beautiful.
280
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,800
'When you going to let me
have sex with you?
281
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,000
'I'm not.'
282
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:42,760
You're going with him.
283
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,360
You're going with him.
284
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,800
Holly, you're going with him. No
285
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,520
I'm the barrister for Abdul Aziz.
286
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,920
Who you knew as "Tariq".
287
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,160
Of all the girls that you knew who were
conducting that sort of lifestyle,
288
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,600
without doubt, you were the prettiest.
289
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,040
You're much prettier than Amber,
290
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:50,240
are you not?
291
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,160
Yes. Well, I will
292
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,360
spare your blushes, and we can
deal with this in a different way.
293
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:05,360
Amber Bowen.
294
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,140
Now, she was the one who introduced you
295
00:21:10,340 --> 00:21:13,200
to thislifestyle that you complain of?
296
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,920
Yeah. She was.
She was the one who introduced you
297
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,380
to the men that you complain of, yes?
Yeah.
298
00:21:19,580 --> 00:21:22,640
She was the one who was getting payments
299
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,160
for the men that you
make these complaints against?
300
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,680
Yeah, she was,
but some of them were getting
301
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,760
some of the men were getting payments,
as well.
302
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:34,800
So, in the scheme of things,
303
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,200
Amber was worse than the men
that you accuse,
304
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,600
and at any rate,
she was no less culpable
305
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:42,920
than the men that you accuse?
306
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,920
How do you mean?
She was at least as bad as they were?
307
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:48,000
In some ways.
308
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,880
In other ways, they were worse.
309
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,840
If I've understood your evidence
correctly, Holly, is that
310
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:57,480
you would go to an address
311
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,880
knowing that sex was about to
take place, sex would take place.
312
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,200
Amber would collect money.
313
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:08,200
Tariq would be called,
he would collect you and Amber,
314
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,240
and money would be given to Tariq.
Is that what happened?
315
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,360
Yeah. Yes.
316
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,760
So, it was Amber who was
controlling the arrangement.
317
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,160
It was Amber who was arranging sex.
318
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:22,480
It was Amber who
was arranging transport.
319
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,160
I think it were both of them together.
And that is because?
320
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:29,440
Because if it was just her doing it,
why would she give him the money?
321
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,560
The reality is this, is it not, Holly?
322
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,860
That you feel profoundly very
guilty about what's gone on.
323
00:22:40,060 --> 00:22:44,160
I don't feel guilty
because I didn't do anything wrong.
324
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,760
It may just be that I've read
your evidence badly,
325
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,400
but you do say, at a number of places,
326
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:52,720
that you feel guilty
327
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,360
because you
didn't stand up for yourself.
328
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,360
Did not defend your corner.
329
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,880
Yeah, I didn't.
330
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,040
I feel ashamed.
331
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,200
And I feel angry that I didn't try more.
332
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,960
Because, obviously, at my age,
a few years later
333
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,280
if something like that
were to happen again,
334
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:28,880
I would do everything in my power
335
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,400
to make sure it wouldn't happen again.
336
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:32,880
NOW you feel ashamed.
337
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:35,640
Guilty for what's gone on, yes?
338
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,680
I don't feel guilty, I feel ashamed.
339
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,560
And you've been the subject,
over the years,
340
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,960
of ridicule for this lifestyle
that you entered with Amber.
341
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,000
People were calling you names.
342
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,920
And this is a way,
really of just cleansing all of that.
343
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,360
Of saying to them, "Well, you know what,
344
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,640
"in fact, I've got nothing to be
ashamed of, because I was raped."
345
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,480
That's what this is really all about,
is it not?
346
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,040
I don't care about them.
347
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,440
I don't care about what people say.
348
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,720
It's four years later now.
349
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,120
Four years.
350
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,720
I've got a daughter.
351
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,200
I've got a life.
352
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,960
Idon't need "cleansed".
353
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:24,600
I want justice.
354
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,640
Do I look all right?
355
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,000
Really nice.
356
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,360
Proper smart.
357
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,420
I'm going to go wait in 'ere. OK.
358
00:25:20,620 --> 00:25:22,280
Police'll be here in five minutes.
359
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,620
Why don't you go for a walk
round the block
360
00:25:24,820 --> 00:25:26,960
if you don't want to see them.
I don't care.
361
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,880
It's just going to make you angry.
362
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,440
It'll upset you, and that'll upset her.
No, it won't.
363
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:33,800
I don't care if they've decided
364
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,680
I'm not a good enough, like,
victim or whatever.
365
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,600
Cos I'm a good mum.
366
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:45,600
I'm actually good.
367
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,480
And that's where my head's going.
368
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,600
Not on all this that happened years ago.
369
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,240
All rise.
370
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,480
Go on, Ruby.
371
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,160
They pass you around like a ball.
372
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:49,400
Um
373
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,440
They, like, get your number,
and then, there's like
374
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,960
50 people you don't know ringing you.
375
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,320
What do you mean, Ruby?
"They pass you around like a ball"?
376
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,440
Um
377
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,640
They'd, like, be in a flat
378
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,880
inin a massive circle
379
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,520
and then,
they put the white girl in the middle.'
380
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:18,840
White girl in the middle
381
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,360
And then you'd get sent off
with one of them.
382
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,320
And then, when you come back,
383
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:27,880
you just
384
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,480
just get passed and passed again.'
385
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,520
Passed and passed again
Passed and passed
386
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:37,920
And where was the flat?'
387
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:39,540
Passed and passed
388
00:27:39,740 --> 00:27:41,160
There weren't one.
389
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:43,640
There were loads.
390
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,440
There weren't one There were loads
391
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,240
There were loads
392
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,400
There were loads
393
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,480
Ruby, can you see me all right? Yeah.
394
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,160
And can you hear me OK?
395
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:08,240
Yes.
396
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,360
I am the barrister who is helping
the man that you call Billy,
397
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,620
and I'd like to ask you some
questions for him, please.
398
00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:17,880
Now, you told us that you were in
a relationship with Billy
399
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,040
for a few months and that
he was your boyfriend, yes?
400
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,080
Yes.
401
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,600
And that you told him you were 16?
402
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,000
Yeah.
403
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,080
And as time went on,
you felt like you were in love with him,
404
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,440
did you not?
405
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,320
Um
406
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:39,320
You're nodding.
407
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,400
And did it seem like he really
liked you a lot, as well?
408
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,520
Yeah.
409
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,800
Now then, when you have talked about
when you have been with Billy,
410
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,400
and you have had sex with him,
you have talked about
411
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:55,760
cuddling up with him,
412
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,000
having a laugh and having nice sex,
have you not?
413
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:06,640
Yeah.
414
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,280
And that Billy, he was different
from the other men that you met,
415
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,880
because you told us,
the other men, they were
416
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,720
one-night stands,
417
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:19,880
whereas Billy,
418
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,120
he was a proper boyfriend, yes?
419
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,360
Um
420
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,280
Yeah.
421
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,400
I have no more questions.
422
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:51,680
Ruby!
423
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,640
You met Ruby Bowen before your
son was born, is that right?
424
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:19,880
Yes.
425
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,040
And you had a sexual relationship
with her from October 2008,
426
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,640
is that right? Yes.
427
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,840
Two photographs in the jury
bundle were taken
428
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,920
when Ruby Bowen was in Year 9.
429
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,320
That is the girl with whom you had
a sexual relationship, is it not?
430
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,320
I don't deny the fact,
from looking at the picture,
431
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,120
that that's the same girl.
432
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,600
These photographs were taken
when she was 13 and 14.
433
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,000
Are you seriously saying to this jury
434
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,360
that you thought she
was 20 to 25 years old?
435
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,240
Mr Ahmed,
do you deny all of the allegations?
436
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,840
I deny everything.
437
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,320
But you accept,
as you've told this jury,
438
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,960
that the forensic evidence has your
semen on those items of underwear?
439
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,360
Where did Holly Winshaw
get your semen from?
440
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,400
I had a sexual relationship with Amber,
441
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,440
and, if Amber took a condom,
442
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:21,640
this Winshaw girl,
443
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,720
very clever, very sharp, intelligent,
444
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,160
knows everything,
445
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,920
who knows what she did.
446
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,680
Why would Holly fabricate
evidence against you?
447
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,840
They get into this business together.
448
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,920
They decide on this joint
venture together
449
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:38,960
and they carry it out very well.
450
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:40,800
They're making a lot of money,
451
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,160
and then she falls out with Amber, and
452
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,720
It's very nice
and very easy for policemen,
453
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,400
because they want to climb
the ladder of their career.
454
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:53,960
Fuck the Pakistanis.
455
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,000
Mr Ahmed, can we stick to? No.
456
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,120
No, we can't.
457
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:00,720
Where are your white people?
458
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,520
They train them in sex,
459
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,160
they train them in drinking
from very young age,
460
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,760
and then, when they come to us,
by that time, they're fully trained.
461
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,980
You should look in mirror.
462
00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:14,200
Look at yourself first.
463
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,560
Look at your community.
464
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:18,640
Where's school?
465
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,820
Where's Social Services?
466
00:32:21,020 --> 00:32:23,000
Where is everybody else?
467
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,560
You're lovely with her.
468
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,440
How do you see your future together?
469
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:46,880
I'd like to go to college.
470
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,640
I'd like to move away from Rochdale.
471
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,360
Does that feel achievable?
472
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:56,640
Yeah.
473
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,840
We'll not keep you in suspense
any longer, Holly.
474
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,440
We're going to keep
the care order in place,
475
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,040
but we'll have joint
responsibility with you.
476
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,440
What does that mean?
477
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,760
Ella's going to be coming home to you.
478
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,200
We want it to be
a smooth transition for her,
479
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,740
so we'll liaise with the foster family
480
00:33:21,940 --> 00:33:24,280
and start making arrangements next week.
481
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,880
SHE SNIFFLES Sorry.
482
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,180
You've worked really hard, Holly.
483
00:33:32,380 --> 00:33:34,480
We've got every confidence in you.
484
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:40,840
In a complex case like this one,
485
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,820
where we'd expect the jury
to be out for some weeks,
486
00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:46,730
this briefing is an opportunity
for members of the press
487
00:33:46,930 --> 00:33:49,640
to ask any questions that may have
arisen during trial.
488
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:50,800
Yep, over here, yep.
489
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,980
Why didn't the CPS prosecute
this case in 2008
490
00:33:54,180 --> 00:33:57,160
when Holly Winshaw first
went to the police?
491
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:58,600
At that time, it was considered
492
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,520
that there was an unrealistic
prospect of conviction.
493
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,160
What changed?
494
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,260
The key evidence used in this trial,
you had in 2008.
495
00:34:08,460 --> 00:34:12,360
The perpetrators were allowed
to continue offending
496
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:13,600
for a further two years.
497
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,840
Why did the CPS drop the case?
498
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,780
Was there an issue around the
ethnicity of the perpetrators?
499
00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:23,720
There was an issue around the witness,
not the perpetrators.
500
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,520
What happened is that, initially,
501
00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:30,400
a CPS lawyer formed the view that
the witness would not be credible.
502
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,560
That's why the case
didn't progress to court.
503
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,200
I came here last year
and I reversed that decision.
504
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,560
I looked at it afresh
505
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,260
and I formed a different view.
506
00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:44,760
That she was absolutely credible.
507
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,560
Mr Afzal, would you say that
Holly Winshaw was betrayed?
508
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,480
I have no difficulty in
apologising to her.
509
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,920
She was let down by the whole system
510
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,640
and we were part of that system.
511
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,440
They're here! They're here!
Holly! Holly, come quick!
512
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:21,880
They're here!
513
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,920
She decided to dress herself
this morning
514
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,000
in case you're wondering
why she's got on that hat.
515
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,800
Mummy.
516
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,040
Mummy
517
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,000
Will the foreman please stand?
518
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,960
Have the jury reached
a verdict on any count?
519
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:05,000
Yes.
520
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,960
On the charge of trafficking
within the United Kingdom
521
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,120
for sexual exploitation,
522
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,440
do you find the defendant, Shabir Ahmed,
523
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,200
guilty or not guilty?
524
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:18,120
Guilty.
525
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,040
You're a biased jury!
526
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:21,560
Racist!
527
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,320
On the charge of rape of a child,
528
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,640
do you find the defendant,
Shabir Ahmed, guilty or not guilty?
529
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:28,600
Guilty.
530
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,140
Ya bastard! Ya bastard!
531
00:36:31,340 --> 00:36:33,680
Take him to the cells.
532
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:34,600
Get off me!
533
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,880
Get your hands off me!
534
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:38,380
Get off me!
535
00:36:38,580 --> 00:36:39,880
Kabeer Hassan?
536
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,680
On the count of rape of a child,
537
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,040
do you find the defendant
guilty or not guilty?
538
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:50,580
Guilty.
539
00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:51,970
Abdul Rauf?
540
00:36:52,170 --> 00:36:53,160
Guilty.
541
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,800
Mohammed Sajid?
542
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,360
Guilty.
543
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,360
Mohammed Amin?
544
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:00,400
Guilty.
545
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,960
Adil Khan?
546
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,360
On the count of conspiring to engage
in sexual activity with a child?
547
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,320
Do you find the defendant guilty
or not guilty? Guilty.
548
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:11,520
Abdul Aziz?
549
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,720
On the count of trafficking
within the United Kingdom
550
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,640
for sexual exploitation.
551
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,760
Do you find the defendant
guilty or not guilty?
552
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,400
Guilty.
553
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,440
On the count of rape of a child.
554
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,400
Do you find the defendant guilty
or not guilty?
555
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,200
Guilty.
556
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,360
Would you watch Ella for me?
557
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:45,440
All right?
558
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:46,720
All right?'
559
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,520
Dunno, yet.
Depends what you're going to say next.
560
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,360
I'm going to say guilty.
561
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,440
Every single one of them
involved with you.
562
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Guilty.
563
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:00,880
You there?
564
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,160
Look to your right.
565
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,920
I called your house.
Your mum said you were here.
566
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,560
You can't take it in, can ya?
567
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:19,440
Neither can I.
568
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,000
I don't feel anything.
569
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,920
You will do. You'll be bathing Ella
or making some pasta,
570
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:25,680
I don't know, watching telly
571
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:28,440
and it's going to hit ya.
572
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,100
Like, "Fuck, this actually happened"?
573
00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:33,760
No, like, "Fuck, I actually did this".
574
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:36,320
It were you, Holly.
575
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,920
It were you speaking up again
and again and again to me
576
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,440
and to your dad and to the police
577
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,000
and holding your own
against nine bloody barristers!
578
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,160
It were you.
579
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,040
19 years.
580
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:17,480
Shabir Ahmed
581
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:21,640
19 years
582
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,600
Sorry.
583
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:29,480
I'm sorry.
584
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,720
I had all these ideas about you
585
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:39,560
since you were that high.
586
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,160
What you were going to be,
587
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,280
what you were going to do and all that.
588
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:46,440
And how people would say,
589
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,840
"Oh, Jim's daughter,
yeah, the smart one.
590
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,120
"She's gone on to do this,
that and the other." Jim!
591
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:55,600
But seeing you do
592
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,040
what you've done
593
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:00,840
over them months in court.
594
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,160
Finding the strength
to do what you did in there
595
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,420
after everything you've been through,
596
00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:09,760
after everything that's happened to you.
597
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,680
That's the proudest moment of my life.
598
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,840
I have got so much respect for you.
599
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,280
I take my hat off to you.
600
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,640
You are so messy. I'm going to get
a cloth to wipe that up.
601
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:22,840
'This has been a fantastic result
for British justice.
602
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,480
'These victims have been through
the most horrendous of crimes
603
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,520
'and I just want to commend
their bravery
604
00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:33,040
'in relation to the ordeal
they've had to go through.
605
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:34,360
'A long number of weeks in court
606
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,480
'and they've had to go through
a lot of trauma.
607
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,680
'I would also like to thank my officers
608
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,760
'for the professionalism
and dedication they have shown
609
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,680
'in a very complex inquiry.
610
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,360
'This is the first time in UK history
611
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,160
'that we've had trafficking
within the UK.'
612
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,600
I've gone down 60% since the verdict.
613
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,560
Cos people would rather wait for
a white driver than get in me cab.
614
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,840
That's why we set up this group.
615
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,960
To bring the people
of Rochdale together.
616
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,320
This is a great place to live
617
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,280
and it's time, now,
to focus on the positive.
618
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,920
People in the community must have
known was what going on.
619
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,000
Are you saying that I knew about this?
No, what I'm saying is
620
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,520
Cos, believe me, if I had,
I'd have rounded 'em up meself
621
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:26,480
and took 'em down to police
station meself.
622
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,640
You see the people who won't get in
your cab now, that's just racist.
623
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,280
That's them saying that
all Pakistanis are the same.
624
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,000
Ethnicity is not an issue here.
625
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,520
It's not an issue. It's a fact.
626
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:41,540
The vast majority of sex
offenders are white male.
627
00:42:41,740 --> 00:42:45,360
90% are British white males
acting on their own.
628
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,520
But in this particular type of crime,
on-street grooming
629
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:52,620
of vulnerable girls, it's overwhelmingly
630
00:42:52,820 --> 00:42:55,520
British-Pakistani men acting together.
631
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:57,920
Right, and that's my responsibility,
is it?
632
00:42:58,120 --> 00:42:59,280
Cos I'm a British-Pakistani, too?
633
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,040
Are white people ever asked to account
634
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:03,520
for the deviant behaviour
of other white people?
635
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:04,880
No.
636
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,840
It isn't about whether the guys
that did it are Pakistani.
637
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,800
It's what the hell was a 13-year-old
girl doing in that flat?
638
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,040
You're blaming the victim.
639
00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:15,680
That victim could have been your
sister or your daughter.
640
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,360
No. Cos my sister or my daughter
our daughters
641
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,040
aren't hanging about on street
corners in short skirts
642
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:22,720
with their chests hanging out.
643
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,440
They were in trackie bottoms,
these girls were in school uniform.
644
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,040
These men had disgusting attitudes
to women.
645
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:32,360
Not just white women. ALL women.
646
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,600
That is a tiny, tiny proportion
of British-Pakistanis. I know.
647
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,160
But as long as that attitude
exists at all, here,
648
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,360
in Rochdale, in our community,
649
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,000
there'll be repercussions for all of us.
650
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,080
'Now as you may have heard in the news,
651
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,640
'the Rochdale Borough Safeguarding
Children Board
652
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,800
'has published its report this morning
653
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,760
'on the catalogue of failures
in the police and Social Services
654
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,720
'which led to the continued grooming
and rape of a number of girls.
655
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,040
'The report is very clear
about the failings
656
00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:11,260
'from all the organisations involved
657
00:44:11,460 --> 00:44:13,280
'with the young people. There was more
658
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,160
'that could and should have been
done to protect them.
659
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,520
'But The Guardian reports this morning
660
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:24,240
'that 83 referrals were made by
a worried NHS Sexual Health Team,
661
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,080
'who had obviously seen these girls.
662
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,200
'Why were they ignored
and why are they not in your report?
663
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,840
'When professionals have got concerns
664
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,900
'and they're not getting the
response that they need,
665
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:38,610
'there is a board policy that
says it should be escalated
666
00:44:38,810 --> 00:44:41,745
'within their own organisation
and within social care
667
00:44:41,945 --> 00:44:44,880
'and that wasn't done satisfactorily,
obviously.'
668
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,960
What's the matter with you?
669
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,920
Driving in, just heard someone
670
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,920
from Rochdale Council Safeguarding
Children on the radio
671
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,840
Saying what? Have they "learnt lessons"?
672
00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:59,200
Have they "been on a journey"?
673
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,800
There's no spin on earth
that they can put on this
674
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,620
to make themselves look good.
675
00:45:03,820 --> 00:45:05,240
They're saying
676
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,080
we never shared information!
677
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:10,960
What?
678
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,300
We didn't "escalate our concerns".
679
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:16,830
They're saying they didn't know
680
00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:19,360
because we didn't tell them.
681
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,240
No way.
682
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:23,680
No way is this happening.
683
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,600
Management's not going to bat for us.
684
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,080
She's saying,
"Oh, don't worry about it, Sara,
685
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,200
"the truth will come out at some point."
686
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,520
Right. We're going to the union.
687
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,680
I feel like I'm going mad.
688
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,400
It's not you. It's everybody else.
689
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,200
That's what mad people think.
690
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:48,680
You do look a bit
691
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,480
It's the hood. Let's take the hood down.
692
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,800
I'm not cut out for this, you know?
693
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,360
Whistle-blowing.
694
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,920
Erin Brockovich in an anorak!
695
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,800
Erin Brockovich
could have done with an anorak.
696
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:06,480
Seven years.
697
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:13,400
I've been telling people
for seven years.
698
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,880
And even now,
they just don't want to know.
699
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:38,600
Sir.
700
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,600
I watched the ACC on the steps of
court tie it up in a bow.
701
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,560
Well, it was a very successful
operation, Maggie.
702
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,520
But that's not the whole story, is it?
703
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:56,440
You can be sure that whatever
went on down in Rochdale in 2008
704
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,280
will be fully dealt with by the IPCC.
705
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,360
Yeah, but I'm talking about 2005.
706
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,780
GMP has known that they have a problem
707
00:47:07,980 --> 00:47:11,960
with on-street grooming since 2005,
708
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:13,360
at least.
709
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,560
And, um, I know
710
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,780
because I was part of a
711
00:47:18,980 --> 00:47:22,000
of a scoping exercise in 2005
712
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,280
to see whether or not
713
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:28,040
we had a problem in Greater
Manchester with child grooming.
714
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,240
And it found that we did.
715
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:33,240
But nothing was done about it.
716
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,440
The investigation was dropped.
717
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:38,800
There were no arrests.
718
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,080
There were no prosecutions.
719
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,360
Sorry, Maggie.
720
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,320
Is that a question
721
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,000
or a grievance?
722
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,520
I'm not comfortable with what we're
claiming we knew and didn't know.
723
00:47:56,720 --> 00:48:00,460
And I'm not comfortable with the way
we're treating victims.
724
00:48:00,660 --> 00:48:04,400
I wasn't comfortable in 2005
and I'm not comfortable now.
725
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:07,760
Is this about Amber Bowen?
726
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,920
This is about the ethics of
subjecting vulnerable witnesses
727
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:17,360
to months of questioning and then
dropping them with no explanation,
728
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,640
and no further action
against anyone that they've named.
729
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,160
Amber Bowen is a very particular case.
730
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,060
No. She wasn't.
731
00:48:28,260 --> 00:48:29,760
She was a victim,
732
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,140
just like the other girls.
733
00:48:32,340 --> 00:48:34,320
But no-one was ever arrested
734
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,720
or even interviewed in relation
to what they did to her.
735
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,880
Look, I know you've had this
explained to you many times before.
736
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,480
Yes, but not in a way that makes me
feel any better about the decision.
737
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,840
But I will go over it with you again.
738
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,520
There was no way that girl
was going in the witness box.
739
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:04,640
CPS was absolutely clear about that
and it was their call to make.
740
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:07,440
But
741
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,400
They then realised,
742
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,160
a little bit late in the day,
it must be said,
743
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,600
that they needed the girl's evidence.
744
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,040
So, they had to find a tactical way
to introduce it at trial.
745
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,160
How do you use someone's evidence
if you don't call them as a witness?
746
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:32,880
By putting them on the indictment.
747
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,800
Amber was named as one of the
co-conspirators with the men.
748
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,040
What!
749
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:41,440
It was purely tactical, Margaret.
750
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,440
No-one was interested
in prosecuting her.
751
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:50,200
Does she know about this?
Has anyone even bothered to tell her?!
752
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,680
I'm sure she was kept fully informed.
753
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,320
All right!
754
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,520
What's all this? Can you just take it?
755
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,680
Help me! What's happened?
756
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:13,920
What's wrong with you?
757
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,160
They're trying to take her. Who are?
Who's trying to take her?
758
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,600
Social Services. They called me in.
They're trying to get a court date.
759
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,880
Don't be soft, they can't do that!
760
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,320
What for? You're a brilliant mum!
What they saying you've done?
761
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:30,720
They're not saying I've done owt.
762
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,360
They're saying there's
a risk that I could though.
763
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,400
As if I'd do anything to hurt her!
764
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,800
Why me, Mum? Why is it always me?!
765
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,520
Don't open it, Mum. Don't!
It might be Ruby.
766
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:49,320
No, it's not Ruby. Ruby's got keys.
767
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,600
No, it is her. Please, Mum.
768
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,040
It's Ok. All right. It's Ok.
769
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,840
They've gone. They've gone.
770
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,960
It's Maggie. >
771
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,960
It's Margaret Oliver. Maggie. >
772
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,440
What you doing?
773
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,520
Coming here? Now.
774
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:22,080
Didn't return me calls.
Didn't reply to me texts.
775
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:23,280
You promised all sorts.
776
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,280
Should've known
never to trust the police.
777
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:28,560
I'm not the police.
778
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,320
Then why you turning up here, then?
Cos no-one can tell me not to.
779
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:34,960
I've left GMP.
780
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,240
I've resigned.
781
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:40,960
I, um
782
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,440
I
783
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:47,680
I don't know what the police told you
784
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,760
about why you didn't get to go to court.
I don't care.
785
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,040
I don't give a shit about that now.
They didn't say nothing.
786
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:58,040
Justthey're using Ruby,
but they're not using her.
787
00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:01,000
That decision,
I strongly disagreed with it.
788
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,280
But I got taken off the job after that
789
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,520
and ordered not to have
any contact with you.
790
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,700
But at some point,
the powers that be decided that
791
00:52:14,900 --> 00:52:18,030
though they weren't going
to call you as a witness,
792
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:21,360
they still needed
to be able to use your evidence.
793
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,580
And as a way of doing that,
794
00:52:23,780 --> 00:52:25,800
you were named by the Crown
795
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,800
on one of the charges.
796
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,120
How do you mean?
797
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,280
The Crown listed you alongside the men,
798
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:38,680
on charge of conspiracy to engage
in sexual activity with a child.
799
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:44,580
What that meansis that you
were as responsible as the men
800
00:52:44,780 --> 00:52:50,480
for what happened to Holly and Ruby
and all the other girls.
801
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:57,920
So, they're calling me a rapist?
802
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:59,400
Is that what you're saying?
803
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,800
They're calling me a paedophile?
804
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,560
That's why this is happening.
805
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:11,080
Why what's happening?
806
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,120
Don't tell her. Don't tell her nothing.
807
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,160
They're trying to take Yasmin off her.
808
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,600
Why? Why?
809
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,880
Why?
Course they want to take her off me.
810
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,080
Not cos of owt I've done to her,
just cos of
811
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:26,240
me.
812
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:27,560
Who I am.
813
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,280
What's happened to me.
814
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:32,720
And they never could.
815
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,580
But now, I've been named
as a fucking sex offender,
816
00:53:37,780 --> 00:53:40,080
I have got no chance.
Well, that's not going to happen.
817
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,920
First thing tomorrow,
you're going to go and get a solicitor.
818
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,040
And I'm going to come with you.
Why do you care?
819
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:47,280
Why are you even here?
820
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:50,720
Because I let you down.
821
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,000
I gained your trust and I promised
you things and
822
00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:01,840
I betrayed you.
823
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:03,480
It was ME you trusted.
824
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,160
It was ME you poured your heart out to.
825
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:07,280
And
826
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,720
I'm sorry.
827
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,080
Because that's not how you treat people.
828
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,320
That's not why
I became a police officer.
829
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:24,640
And
830
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:27,880
I
831
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,360
I couldn't help you as a police officer.
832
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,120
But, maybe, I can help you now. Why?
833
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,400
Because you need it.
834
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,280
And because you deserve it.
835
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:43,880
And
836
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,760
When it all comes out
837
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:54,800
what's been done to girls
like you and it will
838
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,800
I want to look back and say
I was on the right side of it.
839
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,960
Do you think the failure in
Rochdale was due to
840
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,160
incompetence or indifference?
841
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,160
This is a Select Committee,
and I know you will answer frankly,
842
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:44,080
Miss Rowbotham.
843
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,440
It was attitudes towards teenagers.
844
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,080
It was absolute disrespect
845
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,880
that vulnerable young people
did not have a voice.
846
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,680
That they were overlooked,
847
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,000
that they were discriminated against
848
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,240
and they were treated appallingly
by protective services.
849
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,800
I think we need an absolute shift
850
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,000
in what constitutes a reliable witness.
851
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,120
As I've already explained,
852
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:17,400
those young people do not present
853
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,480
as clear-cut victims.
854
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,720
They don't clearly state,
"I am being abused."
855
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,040
They are absolutely entrenched
in a horrible set
856
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:33,760
of manipulation and coercion.
857
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,280
They are living in absolute fear,
858
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:42,800
so won't easily fit a box
that allows a judicial system
859
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:48,320
to easily see that this is
a child that is being abused.
860
00:56:49,806 --> 00:56:59,806
Transcribed by Uncle Andy
861
00:57:00,305 --> 00:57:06,374
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