1 00:00:01,230 --> 00:00:04,560 [pensive music playing] 2 00:00:04,630 --> 00:00:07,100 [marc] how much do you know about the stone of destiny? 3 00:00:07,100 --> 00:00:09,440 -Ah, a little bit. -Yeah? 4 00:00:09,510 --> 00:00:11,240 Do you know what your grandad did with the stone of destiny? 5 00:00:11,270 --> 00:00:12,640 Aye, he stole it. 6 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:14,980 [laughs] he stole it. 7 00:00:15,110 --> 00:00:16,780 How long ago did he do that? 8 00:00:16,910 --> 00:00:19,450 -Ah, a long time ago. -A long time ago. 9 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,380 [archbishop on video footage] ...Do your homage and service. 10 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,790 Are you willing to do the same? 11 00:00:24,850 --> 00:00:27,190 [marc] on June the 2nd, 1953, 12 00:00:27,190 --> 00:00:29,490 Elizabeth ii was crowned. 13 00:00:30,790 --> 00:00:33,190 But there is something in this chapel 14 00:00:33,330 --> 00:00:36,030 That many argue shouldn't be there. 15 00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:37,600 [emma] that's it there, that's the stone of destiny. 16 00:00:37,670 --> 00:00:38,970 [nico] yeah, right there. 17 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,540 [marc] something that was not only stolen, 18 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,400 It was stolen back in 19 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,470 One of the most outrageous heists in history. 20 00:00:46,540 --> 00:00:48,210 A heist that shows 21 00:00:48,210 --> 00:00:52,180 The united kingdom hasn't always been so united. 22 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,120 [theme music playing] 23 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,250 [marc] in the days of the british empire, 24 00:00:58,290 --> 00:00:59,690 Things were taken. 25 00:00:59,820 --> 00:01:02,290 They usually ended up in museums and galleries 26 00:01:02,290 --> 00:01:04,390 With polite plaques. 27 00:01:04,530 --> 00:01:06,360 My name is marc fennell, 28 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,760 And this is the not-so-polite story 29 00:01:08,830 --> 00:01:11,430 Of how they really got there. 30 00:01:11,500 --> 00:01:14,170 [light music playing] 31 00:01:18,770 --> 00:01:20,310 [marc] so, is it scone (scown) palace 32 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,040 Or scone (scoon) palace? 33 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,780 It's scone (scoon), and... 34 00:01:23,780 --> 00:01:25,580 But I wouldn't be worried 35 00:01:25,710 --> 00:01:27,810 That you might have said scone (scown) to start with. 36 00:01:27,820 --> 00:01:29,220 [lucy laughs] 37 00:01:29,250 --> 00:01:30,280 [marc] in scotland, 38 00:01:30,290 --> 00:01:31,390 These are the gardens 39 00:01:31,390 --> 00:01:32,790 Of scone palace. 40 00:01:32,820 --> 00:01:34,520 There, I said it. 41 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,460 It's a place with ancient royal connections. 42 00:01:37,460 --> 00:01:40,060 [marc] so this is the same land that kings have walked on? 43 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,630 Yes, I don't suspect they got lost in the maze 44 00:01:41,630 --> 00:01:42,730 While they were doing it though. 45 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:43,860 Probably not as lost as us anyway. 46 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,300 [lucy] no. [laughs] 47 00:01:46,670 --> 00:01:48,270 [marc] dr lucy dean teaches 48 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,640 Medieval and early modern history, 49 00:01:50,670 --> 00:01:52,670 Particularly the history of scotland. 50 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,010 [lucy] I've always had a fascination with scotland 51 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,880 That often is sort of misunderstood 52 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:02,080 As being just part of the uk 53 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,420 Rather than being a kingdom in its own right. 54 00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:07,950 [marc] yes, these days, the united kingdom is 55 00:02:08,020 --> 00:02:09,760 England, wales, northern ireland, 56 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:11,630 And, of course, scotland. 57 00:02:11,690 --> 00:02:14,360 But, they used to be quite separate. 58 00:02:15,630 --> 00:02:18,430 [marc] so, tell me, why does this place 59 00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:19,600 Matter to scottish history? 60 00:02:19,740 --> 00:02:21,500 This land that we're on at the moment. 61 00:02:21,570 --> 00:02:23,300 [lucy] scone is incredibly important 62 00:02:23,340 --> 00:02:26,570 Because it was important to scottish identity 63 00:02:26,610 --> 00:02:28,940 And the scottish ceremony of kingmaking. 64 00:02:30,210 --> 00:02:33,280 In the medieval period, the 13th century and earlier, 65 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:34,910 Scotland had its own kings. 66 00:02:34,950 --> 00:02:36,220 So there was a king of England 67 00:02:36,350 --> 00:02:37,920 And there was a king of scotland, 68 00:02:37,950 --> 00:02:39,320 So they were two separate kingdoms. 69 00:02:40,690 --> 00:02:42,520 [marc] and to become the king of scotland, 70 00:02:42,590 --> 00:02:45,930 You needed a certain legendary stone. 71 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,060 For years, each king would sit on the stone 72 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:52,130 During their ascension to power. 73 00:02:52,270 --> 00:02:54,800 But in 1286, crisis. 74 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,470 Scottish king alexander iii dies without a clear heir. 75 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,140 And so, scottish nobles turn to the king of England, 76 00:03:02,210 --> 00:03:04,580 Edward I, to select a ruler. 77 00:03:04,610 --> 00:03:06,550 Edward picks john balliol, 78 00:03:06,550 --> 00:03:08,420 A man who he assumes will do his bidding 79 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:09,950 As the scottish leader. 80 00:03:10,020 --> 00:03:12,250 This situation does not go well. 81 00:03:13,390 --> 00:03:15,860 Edward invades scotland, imprisons balliol, 82 00:03:15,930 --> 00:03:17,590 And takes away some of scotland's 83 00:03:17,730 --> 00:03:19,860 Most meaningful royal objects, 84 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,630 Including the stone of scone, 85 00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:24,500 Or, as it's sometimes known, 86 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:27,570 The stone of destiny. 87 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:31,640 [lucy] so in 1296, the stone is removed from scotland. 88 00:03:31,710 --> 00:03:33,770 And I think by taking away those items, 89 00:03:33,910 --> 00:03:35,980 It's stripping that country of its identity. 90 00:03:36,050 --> 00:03:39,510 Its means of making a ruler into a ruler. 91 00:03:39,550 --> 00:03:41,280 [pensive music playing] 92 00:03:41,350 --> 00:03:43,320 [marc] but it seems the english didn't just 93 00:03:43,350 --> 00:03:45,590 Take scotland's precious stone, 94 00:03:45,590 --> 00:03:47,790 They also built something around it. 95 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,320 [lucy] so this is what I was looking for. 96 00:03:50,390 --> 00:03:52,660 [marc] ah, it's a stone in a throne. 97 00:03:52,660 --> 00:03:54,530 [lucy] it is indeed a stone in a throne. 98 00:03:54,530 --> 00:03:56,000 How does it get there? 99 00:03:56,130 --> 00:03:58,730 Well, this throne was designed for this stone 100 00:03:58,870 --> 00:04:01,370 When it was stolen by edward I. 101 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,400 Symbolically, even just looking at it, 102 00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:04,800 If you think that that's supposed to be 103 00:04:04,870 --> 00:04:06,870 One of the symbols of scottish kingship, 104 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,740 And it's your throne as the king of England, 105 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,350 If you sit on that in your coronation, 106 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,150 It's essentially you sitting on the scots 107 00:04:15,220 --> 00:04:17,480 And being in control of the scots. 108 00:04:17,550 --> 00:04:18,820 So if you're thinking about, like, sort of, 109 00:04:18,950 --> 00:04:20,620 The power dynamics 110 00:04:20,620 --> 00:04:22,020 That edward's trying to communicate 111 00:04:22,090 --> 00:04:23,490 With where he puts the stone, 112 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,220 He is king of that land 113 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:27,260 Because he's able to sit on that throne. 114 00:04:27,260 --> 00:04:30,500 [marc] so they literally build a throne around a stone? 115 00:04:30,570 --> 00:04:32,630 -[lucy] yeah. -To symbolise that dominance. 116 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,100 [lucy] yeah, to symbolise dominance. 117 00:04:35,100 --> 00:04:36,570 So there's just one problem 118 00:04:36,610 --> 00:04:37,840 With that particular stone 119 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:39,510 In that particular throne, isn't there? 120 00:04:39,580 --> 00:04:41,170 Yeah, that's not the real stone, 121 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:42,580 It's a replica. 122 00:04:42,710 --> 00:04:44,310 The stone is no longer in scone. 123 00:04:45,380 --> 00:04:46,980 [marc] no. The real stone of destiny 124 00:04:46,980 --> 00:04:48,110 Spent centuries here 125 00:04:48,150 --> 00:04:49,520 In the heart of london. 126 00:04:49,550 --> 00:04:50,920 This is westminster abbey, 127 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:52,590 Where kings and queens of England, 128 00:04:52,660 --> 00:04:54,920 Right up to elizabeth ii, 129 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,890 Have, well, they've sat on 130 00:04:57,030 --> 00:04:58,590 Scotland's most potent symbol. 131 00:04:58,660 --> 00:05:00,390 [archbishop of canterbury] ...Do your homage and service... 132 00:05:00,530 --> 00:05:01,960 [light music playing] 133 00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:05,500 [marc] and back in scotland, it is surprising 134 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:09,800 How England's removal of the stone over 700 years ago, 135 00:05:09,810 --> 00:05:10,940 For some at least, 136 00:05:11,070 --> 00:05:13,010 It still stings. 137 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,010 [marc] the thing I found curious about the story 138 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:18,210 Is that it has persisted for so long. 139 00:05:18,210 --> 00:05:20,250 It's, sort of, potency has lasted so long. 140 00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:22,280 And I'm trying to wrap my head around why. 141 00:05:23,450 --> 00:05:25,550 It's an interesting question, and it's also, 142 00:05:25,590 --> 00:05:31,560 "why has the sense of scottishness persisted?" 143 00:05:31,590 --> 00:05:35,530 When the british state has done everything it can 144 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,430 To wipe out the sense of scottishness, right? 145 00:05:40,470 --> 00:05:42,640 Why is it that that persists? 146 00:05:42,770 --> 00:05:45,840 [marc] bruce fummey is a former physics teacher 147 00:05:45,910 --> 00:05:47,370 Who is now a stand-up comedian 148 00:05:47,510 --> 00:05:49,640 And a historical tour guide. 149 00:05:49,650 --> 00:05:51,580 Why is it important to you 150 00:05:51,650 --> 00:05:53,710 That scottish history is recorded and shared? 151 00:05:53,780 --> 00:05:55,120 Like, why does that matter to you? 152 00:05:55,180 --> 00:05:57,150 Because it's part of your identity. 153 00:05:57,290 --> 00:05:59,190 And as a mixed-race guy, you know, 154 00:05:59,250 --> 00:06:02,060 As a ghanian scottish guy, okay, 155 00:06:02,060 --> 00:06:04,860 But I'm 100% culturally scottish. 156 00:06:04,990 --> 00:06:06,060 I was born here. 157 00:06:06,190 --> 00:06:07,630 I grew up here. I'm scottish. 158 00:06:07,630 --> 00:06:09,160 And maybe that's part of it. 159 00:06:09,300 --> 00:06:10,600 Everyone wants to know 160 00:06:10,630 --> 00:06:12,370 Where they come from, do you know what I mean? 161 00:06:12,370 --> 00:06:14,530 I think it's part of the human condition. 162 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,870 [marc] over the decades, many scots have argued 163 00:06:17,010 --> 00:06:19,540 For the return of the stone from london. 164 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:21,140 [bruce] we're talking 700 years later, 165 00:06:21,140 --> 00:06:22,610 And loads of things have happened. 166 00:06:22,740 --> 00:06:24,610 But it's that sense of grievance. 167 00:06:24,610 --> 00:06:25,550 -Do you know what I mean? -Yeah. 168 00:06:25,610 --> 00:06:26,950 That I think has kept it. 169 00:06:26,980 --> 00:06:29,420 The fact that you know it's in london 170 00:06:29,450 --> 00:06:31,220 Under their throne. 171 00:06:31,250 --> 00:06:32,520 -Do you know what I mean? -Yeah. Yeah. 172 00:06:32,650 --> 00:06:34,620 Whereas it should be here. 173 00:06:34,620 --> 00:06:37,620 And I think that sense of grieving makes it persist. 174 00:06:39,090 --> 00:06:40,430 [marc] and it persisted 175 00:06:40,430 --> 00:06:42,960 All the way to glasgow in the 1950s, 176 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,770 Where four university students hatched a plan 177 00:06:45,830 --> 00:06:48,700 To save the scottish identity once and for all, 178 00:06:49,940 --> 00:06:51,710 And steal back scotland's stone of destiny. 179 00:06:53,010 --> 00:06:54,510 Ian hamilton, 180 00:06:54,510 --> 00:06:55,780 Kay matheson, 181 00:06:55,810 --> 00:06:56,840 Alan stuart, 182 00:06:56,980 --> 00:06:58,280 And gavin vernon. 183 00:07:00,020 --> 00:07:03,480 And I'm told this is where it all began. 184 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,050 -[marc] hi. -Hi there. 185 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,460 [marc] it's nice to finally meet you. 186 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:09,520 -[emma] nice to meet you. -How are you? 187 00:07:09,530 --> 00:07:10,390 [nico] pleased to meet you. 188 00:07:11,530 --> 00:07:13,260 [marc] emma and nico are modern-day students 189 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:14,690 Here at glasgow university, 190 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:16,260 And the theft of the stone of destiny 191 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,630 Is part of the mythology here, 192 00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:22,130 And it's obsessed students just like these guys ever since. 193 00:07:22,170 --> 00:07:23,670 The conspirators were students here. 194 00:07:23,810 --> 00:07:25,840 They cooked up the plan to reclaim the stone. 195 00:07:25,910 --> 00:07:27,870 Yeah, that's kind of where it all starts from. 196 00:07:27,910 --> 00:07:29,710 [marc] but after seven centuries 197 00:07:29,750 --> 00:07:31,940 Of the stone being away in England, 198 00:07:31,980 --> 00:07:34,280 Why did it come to a head then? 199 00:07:35,250 --> 00:07:37,350 So obviously it's in the post-war era, 200 00:07:37,420 --> 00:07:38,890 And, you know, the whole of the uk 201 00:07:38,950 --> 00:07:41,320 Is trying to recover along with scotland. 202 00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:43,760 The levels of poverty that used to be in the past 203 00:07:43,890 --> 00:07:45,630 Were really, really high, 204 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,100 And glasgow itself was really neglected in some places. 205 00:07:49,100 --> 00:07:53,830 I think, back then, scotland was, in all essence, 206 00:07:53,900 --> 00:07:54,970 Another county of England. 207 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:56,640 And I think to people that were 208 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,300 Pro-scottish independence at that point, 209 00:07:58,340 --> 00:07:59,910 It would probably be quite a scary thing 210 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,040 To see your national identity eroded over time 211 00:08:02,180 --> 00:08:03,510 Just because of it. 212 00:08:03,650 --> 00:08:07,050 Where does the idea for the heist actually begin? 213 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:08,050 Like, where does that start? 214 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:09,120 [emma] the students, 215 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,650 They were looking to progress 216 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:11,790 Scottish independence forward, 217 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,650 And because of the history of it, 218 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,460 They thought, "well, 219 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,190 What's a better symbol to show scotland 220 00:08:17,190 --> 00:08:18,260 Than the stone?" 221 00:08:18,330 --> 00:08:19,930 [heist music playing] 222 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,330 [marc] so the students set their sights 223 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,730 On westminster abbey, 224 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,600 Where the stone was held in the throne. 225 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,130 [nico] so, the plan as I understand it 226 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,430 Was, on christmas day, 227 00:08:28,470 --> 00:08:31,070 When everyone was celebrating christmas, 228 00:08:31,210 --> 00:08:32,640 To sneak into the abbey at night 229 00:08:32,710 --> 00:08:34,410 And remove the stone, 230 00:08:34,410 --> 00:08:35,610 And manage to get it 231 00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:37,680 Back up to scotland at some point. 232 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:40,580 [music continues] 233 00:08:40,620 --> 00:08:41,980 [emma] before they went down to london, 234 00:08:42,050 --> 00:08:43,780 I think they tried to figure out the floor plan 235 00:08:43,820 --> 00:08:45,890 To make it, you know, the quickest in-and-out operation 236 00:08:45,890 --> 00:08:47,220 That they could. 237 00:08:47,220 --> 00:08:48,820 Obviously, you need a bit of planning. 238 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,730 You can't just go in and take it, really. 239 00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:53,660 [marc] no, you definitely can't. 240 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,100 So, I did the tourist tour. You're allowed to take photos. 241 00:08:57,230 --> 00:08:58,730 [shutter clicking] 242 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,070 I've got ian's instructions of what he did, 243 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,100 And I've kind of mapped it out. 244 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:04,100 If I'm being honest with you, 245 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,570 I kind of had questions 246 00:09:05,610 --> 00:09:07,510 As to how this whole thing went down. 247 00:09:07,540 --> 00:09:09,740 [light music playing] 248 00:09:09,740 --> 00:09:13,050 [marc] so to figure it out, I got creative. 249 00:09:16,150 --> 00:09:17,820 [marc laughs] 250 00:09:17,950 --> 00:09:21,550 I present to you my westminster abbey. 251 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:24,390 [laughs] this is what I get up to in my spare time. 252 00:09:24,530 --> 00:09:28,130 I took the instructions that the students recorded, 253 00:09:28,260 --> 00:09:29,200 Went to westminster abbey, 254 00:09:29,230 --> 00:09:30,300 And I've mapped out 255 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:31,800 The pathway they took 256 00:09:31,930 --> 00:09:33,330 On that one christmas day. 257 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:35,400 And I'll be honest with you, 258 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:36,940 I don't understand how they did it. 259 00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:38,740 Now, when it comes to the actual stone itself... 260 00:09:38,810 --> 00:09:39,870 [camera shutter clicking] 261 00:09:40,010 --> 00:09:41,070 Turns out, very hard 262 00:09:41,210 --> 00:09:42,310 To find ancient scottish stones, 263 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,410 So I have sort of a workaround. 264 00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:47,350 Whoa. 265 00:09:51,950 --> 00:09:53,620 What's the next best scottish thing you can find? 266 00:09:53,660 --> 00:09:56,420 -A barrel of scotch. -[emma laughs] 267 00:09:56,430 --> 00:10:00,160 This is about the weight of what they dragged. 268 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,960 You've been following the story for a long time. 269 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:03,760 Would you care to try and recreate it? 270 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:05,100 -100%, yeah. -Yeah, let's try it, yeah. 271 00:10:05,230 --> 00:10:06,630 Okay. Wait, wait, before you do it. 272 00:10:06,770 --> 00:10:10,100 Turns out, they didn't just drag it along the floor. 273 00:10:10,110 --> 00:10:12,140 -They had a coat. -[emma laughs] 274 00:10:12,270 --> 00:10:14,310 [grunting] 275 00:10:14,380 --> 00:10:15,510 -[emma] yeah. -[nico] probably, yeah. 276 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:16,980 [marc] oh! Okay. 277 00:10:17,010 --> 00:10:19,650 That would be-- we definitely broke something. 278 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,980 [all grunting, straining] 279 00:10:23,020 --> 00:10:25,120 I think it's about now that a, like, 280 00:10:25,190 --> 00:10:27,250 A police officer was coming by or something. 281 00:10:27,260 --> 00:10:28,720 [nico] yeah, and the group got split up because 282 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:29,920 They had to go out and distract the policeman. 283 00:10:30,060 --> 00:10:31,120 -Yeah. -Yeah. 284 00:10:31,190 --> 00:10:32,660 This is an actual debacle, isn't it? 285 00:10:32,660 --> 00:10:33,860 -[nico] yes. -Yeah. 286 00:10:33,860 --> 00:10:35,390 Didn't quite go to plan, I don't think. 287 00:10:35,430 --> 00:10:36,930 Sadly, I don't have a fake police officer 288 00:10:36,970 --> 00:10:37,930 For this re-creation. 289 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,130 [nico laughs] 290 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,270 All those in favour of 291 00:10:40,270 --> 00:10:41,200 Just rolling it, say "aye." 292 00:10:41,270 --> 00:10:42,470 -Yeah. -Aye. 293 00:10:42,470 --> 00:10:43,870 [marc] all right, here we go. 294 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:46,070 Is this cheating? 295 00:10:46,110 --> 00:10:47,910 -[nico] just a little bit. -[emma] yeah. 296 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,880 [marc] off you go. Freedom! 297 00:10:51,010 --> 00:10:55,920 Seriously, how did they get this thing out of london? 298 00:10:59,860 --> 00:11:01,150 [marc] when you look at the heist 299 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:02,620 Of scotland's stone of destiny, 300 00:11:02,690 --> 00:11:04,620 It seems like anything that could go wrong did. 301 00:11:05,460 --> 00:11:07,360 So, the plan involved two cars. 302 00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:10,160 After dark, the students burst through one of the side doors 303 00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:12,070 And sneak towards the throne. 304 00:11:12,070 --> 00:11:14,530 They hoist the heavy stone out of the throne 305 00:11:14,540 --> 00:11:17,200 And begin dragging it towards the exit. 306 00:11:17,340 --> 00:11:18,240 But... 307 00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:19,310 [nico] they couldn't lift it 308 00:11:19,310 --> 00:11:20,440 Because it was so heavy, 309 00:11:20,580 --> 00:11:22,510 And then that's when it got broken. 310 00:11:22,510 --> 00:11:25,710 I don't think they realised, you know, how heavy it was. 311 00:11:25,710 --> 00:11:29,120 [marc] that's right. The precious stone breaks in two. 312 00:11:29,180 --> 00:11:31,120 But the thieves are undeterred. 313 00:11:31,150 --> 00:11:33,920 And now, the most dangerous part. 314 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,320 Get the stone out of the abbey and into the street. 315 00:11:37,390 --> 00:11:40,130 And this is the bit where that policeman shows up. 316 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:41,990 The group is scrambling. 317 00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:44,200 How on earth did they get out of london? 318 00:11:44,330 --> 00:11:46,270 A minor miracle, I think, honestly. 319 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:49,140 Yeah, every step of the plan went wrong, 320 00:11:49,270 --> 00:11:50,470 And they still managed it. 321 00:11:50,610 --> 00:11:52,040 [newsreader] a christmas day sensation 322 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,070 At westminster abbey. 323 00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:54,640 The stone of destiny 324 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:56,740 Was stolen from the coronation chair. 325 00:11:57,810 --> 00:11:59,080 [bruce] can you imagine? You know that 326 00:11:59,210 --> 00:12:00,650 You're the guy with the stone, 327 00:12:00,650 --> 00:12:02,680 And it's on the telly every night? 328 00:12:02,750 --> 00:12:05,080 And you're, you'd be sitting shitting yourself, wouldn't you? 329 00:12:05,150 --> 00:12:06,550 You're like, you know they're come-- 330 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:08,690 Even to think about doing it in the first place 331 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,960 Is quite a brave act, do you know what I mean? 332 00:12:10,990 --> 00:12:12,930 Because the punishment could have been severe. 333 00:12:13,660 --> 00:12:15,900 [piano music playing] 334 00:12:15,930 --> 00:12:17,100 [marc] as soon as the authorities 335 00:12:17,230 --> 00:12:18,330 Realised the stone was stolen, 336 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:19,700 They actually shut the border 337 00:12:19,830 --> 00:12:21,230 Between scotland and England. 338 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:23,500 It's the first time they've done it in 400 years. 339 00:12:23,540 --> 00:12:25,510 But the students knew that the border was being watched, 340 00:12:25,510 --> 00:12:26,840 So they did something really clever. 341 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,310 Instead of going north to scotland, 342 00:12:28,340 --> 00:12:30,380 They went south, a little bit outside of london, 343 00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:32,850 And in an open field, 344 00:12:32,910 --> 00:12:34,980 They literally hid the stone 345 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,780 Where anybody could find it. 346 00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:39,650 Honestly, I don't know what they were thinking. 347 00:12:39,650 --> 00:12:41,320 And really, right now 348 00:12:41,390 --> 00:12:43,190 There's only one person alive that does. 349 00:12:43,230 --> 00:12:45,290 [pensive music playing] 350 00:13:01,540 --> 00:13:02,980 [knocking] 351 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:07,210 -Hello, how are you? -Hi, marc. Nice to meet you. 352 00:13:07,250 --> 00:13:08,750 It's nice to meet you too. 353 00:13:08,750 --> 00:13:10,820 -Come in and meet father. -Thank you. 354 00:13:14,090 --> 00:13:16,690 This is the last remaining student from that heist. 355 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,630 Indeed, the architect of the whole theft. 356 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,690 96-year-old ian hamilton, 357 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,330 And his son jamie. 358 00:13:24,530 --> 00:13:28,570 When did you first get the idea to take the stone? 359 00:13:28,570 --> 00:13:31,770 Way back when I was a schoolboy, 360 00:13:31,810 --> 00:13:33,370 I heard about this, 361 00:13:33,510 --> 00:13:36,680 And somebody told me it was the token stone 362 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:38,650 For the scottish people, 363 00:13:38,650 --> 00:13:39,850 And I immediately thought, 364 00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:42,050 "what the fuck's it doing in England?" 365 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:43,980 [marc] we went to westminster abbey 366 00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:46,820 And I tried to retrace the steps of what you did, 367 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:48,350 And it's really, I'm in awe. 368 00:13:48,490 --> 00:13:49,860 Like, it was really heavy. 369 00:13:49,930 --> 00:13:51,720 I don't know how you did it. I really don't. 370 00:13:51,790 --> 00:13:55,190 Ach, well, was the coronation chair 371 00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:57,200 Perched away in a corner? 372 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:58,200 Yeah, they've moved it. 373 00:13:58,270 --> 00:13:59,200 They moved it down by the, 374 00:13:59,330 --> 00:14:00,600 Down by the gift shop. 375 00:14:00,670 --> 00:14:02,600 -Have they? -Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 376 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,870 I think that's 377 00:14:04,940 --> 00:14:07,470 One of the great achievements 378 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,280 Of my life. [laughs] 379 00:14:09,310 --> 00:14:11,080 What, that they moved it because of you? 380 00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:14,610 Yes. Yes, of course they did. 381 00:14:14,750 --> 00:14:16,550 They, they'd get fed-- 382 00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:18,420 They would get fed up with people saying, 383 00:14:18,550 --> 00:14:20,220 "where's the stone?" 384 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,490 [marc] when you were growing up, 385 00:14:22,490 --> 00:14:25,020 Were people proud to be scottish here? 386 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,360 I'm not sure that they were, right, there's... 387 00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:29,630 No. The answer to that is no. 388 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,830 They needed a shake. An awakening. 389 00:14:31,970 --> 00:14:33,930 Why did they need a shake? Why? What was needed? 390 00:14:34,070 --> 00:14:38,970 Because they were pretty well amalgamated with the english, 391 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,770 Who are, after all, our hereditary enemies. 392 00:14:41,810 --> 00:14:45,110 Not that I hold them as enemies, 393 00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:48,410 But I do hold them as very different people. 394 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,450 [marc] as soon as the authorities realised 395 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,050 The stone was missing, you see two very different reactions. 396 00:14:55,060 --> 00:14:57,290 One in scotland and one in England. 397 00:14:57,330 --> 00:14:58,790 [newsreader] the dean of westminster 398 00:14:58,790 --> 00:15:00,990 Called the disappearance an act of sacrilege. 399 00:15:01,130 --> 00:15:03,160 Just around the corner, at scotland yard, 400 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,400 A nationwide search was organised. 401 00:15:05,530 --> 00:15:07,470 [bruce] they start off with the threats, like, 402 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:10,200 Okay, "oh you're going to be in big trouble, my lad, 403 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,970 Right, if you don't give yourself up, it's going-- 404 00:15:12,970 --> 00:15:14,570 We're going to throw the book at you." 405 00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:17,110 But they can't find these people. 406 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:19,480 [emma] I think especially in England and london, 407 00:15:19,610 --> 00:15:21,250 It was something that was unthinkable, 408 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:22,350 That it happened. 409 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,550 The whole thing was 410 00:15:23,690 --> 00:15:25,080 A huge smack in the face, I think, 411 00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:26,550 To certain people in power. 412 00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:28,120 Yeah, definitely. 413 00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:32,220 [nico] but I think in scotland, the reaction 414 00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:34,090 Was quite different than what it was down south. 415 00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:36,560 Yeah. And I think it did help for a lot of people, 416 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,760 Rekindle a sense of scottishness 417 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,770 Separate from britishness. 418 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,440 [ian] yes, absolutely, absolutely. 419 00:15:43,510 --> 00:15:46,540 I've never seen anything like it since. 420 00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:48,340 They were cheering in the street 421 00:15:48,410 --> 00:15:50,910 Shaking hands with strangers. 422 00:15:50,910 --> 00:15:52,680 It was momentous. 423 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:55,450 [lucy] symbols like the stone, 424 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:56,720 They're about identity. 425 00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:58,050 They're about a shared 426 00:15:58,190 --> 00:16:00,320 Understanding of the past. 427 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:01,720 Being part of a community 428 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,720 Because of the symbols that hold you together, 429 00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:05,260 And about demonstrating 430 00:16:05,330 --> 00:16:07,790 Scotland's independence as a kingdom. 431 00:16:07,830 --> 00:16:10,800 It's about being able to lay claim to that 432 00:16:10,830 --> 00:16:12,530 And demonstrate that 433 00:16:12,670 --> 00:16:13,800 Just because it ended up 434 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,130 In a union with another country 435 00:16:15,270 --> 00:16:17,940 Doesn't mean that its separate existence 436 00:16:17,940 --> 00:16:19,270 Should be forgotten about. 437 00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:21,970 When you took the stone, you gave them that feeling. 438 00:16:22,010 --> 00:16:25,410 You gave a whole sense of joy to scotland. 439 00:16:25,550 --> 00:16:27,150 That's an impressive legacy. 440 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,680 Yes, that's so, that's what we did. 441 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,220 That's... We did. 442 00:16:32,250 --> 00:16:33,890 I think it would be true to say 443 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,890 It became a different country after that. 444 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,290 [marc] but how long could that stone stay hidden? 445 00:16:44,770 --> 00:16:47,300 [marc] the stone of destiny has been taken from london, 446 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:48,970 And they've hidden it in a field. 447 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:51,340 Eventually, the thieves drive the stone north to scotland. 448 00:16:51,340 --> 00:16:53,970 They took it to a stone mason who put it back together, 449 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,310 And the students turned it in to the authorities. 450 00:16:58,450 --> 00:16:59,780 [newsreader] in the ruins of arbroath abby, 451 00:16:59,910 --> 00:17:02,620 There ended a mystery that has lasted since christmas day. 452 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,520 For here was found the stone of destiny. 453 00:17:05,650 --> 00:17:07,520 It was taken away by the police, 454 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,020 And this Friday afternoon, 455 00:17:09,020 --> 00:17:10,760 The stone is on its way to london. 456 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,060 [marc] did you ever get in trouble 457 00:17:14,130 --> 00:17:15,800 When you returned the stone? 458 00:17:15,860 --> 00:17:18,330 They never prosecuted you after taking the stone? 459 00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:20,530 No, they, they didn't prosecute us, no. 460 00:17:20,570 --> 00:17:22,400 Why not? 461 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,740 There'd have been a rebellion in scotland if they had. 462 00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:28,740 England was different. 463 00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:31,680 We were called to the house of commons, 464 00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:33,680 To my great glee. 465 00:17:33,820 --> 00:17:36,220 "these vulgar vandals." 466 00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:38,890 He's a son of a vv. 467 00:17:38,890 --> 00:17:40,490 [laughs] 468 00:17:42,220 --> 00:17:44,390 [marc] for years, rumours have spread that the stone 469 00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:47,160 That ian left for the english was actually a fake, 470 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:50,030 And the real one, well, it's somewhere here in scotland. 471 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,030 It's nice to be able to touch this. 472 00:17:55,170 --> 00:17:57,000 -[bruce] it is. -[marc laughs] 473 00:17:57,010 --> 00:17:58,900 So, the story is that this is the real stone. 474 00:17:58,940 --> 00:18:01,140 -Of course it is. -Of course, naturally. 475 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:02,810 I mean, it's a ridiculous story, right? 476 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:03,880 You're going to get us kicked out. 477 00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:05,040 You are going to get us kicked out. 478 00:18:05,180 --> 00:18:06,180 [bruce] there's... 479 00:18:06,180 --> 00:18:07,310 -He doesn't mean it. -Okay. 480 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:08,310 He doesn't mean it, it's fine. 481 00:18:08,450 --> 00:18:09,650 Oh yeah, I'm sure it's the real one. 482 00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:11,120 These are the kind of debates that go on 483 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:12,650 All the time, isn't it? 484 00:18:12,690 --> 00:18:16,460 [marc] but, four decades after he surrendered the stone 485 00:18:16,460 --> 00:18:17,990 To go back to london, 486 00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:19,590 In 1996, 487 00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:21,860 Ian got his wish. 488 00:18:21,930 --> 00:18:23,830 The stone was returned to scotland, 489 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:25,200 To edinburgh castle 490 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,870 Where it's lived ever since. 491 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,000 [pensive music playing] 492 00:18:34,410 --> 00:18:35,540 [marc] the story of the stone 493 00:18:35,540 --> 00:18:36,880 Has really never been about the stone, 494 00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:38,210 At least not for years. 495 00:18:38,350 --> 00:18:40,610 It's a symbol, and it always has been, 496 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,150 Of power, of pride, 497 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,150 And above all things, 498 00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:45,420 It's a symbol of loss. 499 00:18:46,990 --> 00:18:49,490 The initial taking of the stone 500 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,890 From scotland down to England, 501 00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:53,830 Do you regard that as theft? 502 00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:55,460 -Yeah. -Okay. 503 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:57,600 Yeah, I mean, it's, the whole point of it, I think, 504 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,630 Was for edward to show his overlordship over scotland 505 00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:03,240 And english supremacy over scotland. 506 00:19:03,910 --> 00:19:05,640 It was stolen, yeah. 507 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,040 [coronation plays indistinctly] 508 00:19:07,180 --> 00:19:08,740 [marc] even though the theft, 509 00:19:08,740 --> 00:19:10,740 And I guess you could call it re-theft, of the stone 510 00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:13,210 Is so far in the past, 511 00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:16,850 Somehow it's still driving new generations of scots. 512 00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:19,720 [marc] if you met ian, 513 00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:21,890 What is the number one thing you'd like to know from him? 514 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,520 If I met him, I'd want to-- it's not so much 515 00:19:23,660 --> 00:19:25,060 What I'd want to learn from him, but... 516 00:19:25,060 --> 00:19:26,190 I'd want to say, you know, 517 00:19:26,260 --> 00:19:28,790 Thank you for what he'd done 518 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,530 For the whole movement as a whole. 519 00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:32,470 How much reach it had 520 00:19:32,470 --> 00:19:34,130 For driving people towards scottish independence. 521 00:19:34,270 --> 00:19:35,300 [crowds cheering] 522 00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:36,440 [nico] it definitely was one of 523 00:19:36,570 --> 00:19:37,670 The major contributing factors 524 00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:39,200 That saved the scottish identity 525 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,540 From being eroded fully. 526 00:19:40,610 --> 00:19:44,180 [crowds cheering] 527 00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:46,550 [marc] what do you hope for scotland? 528 00:19:46,550 --> 00:19:48,450 There's been calls for independence. 529 00:19:48,450 --> 00:19:49,620 There's been referendums. 530 00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:52,490 What do you hope happens next with scotland, ian? 531 00:19:52,620 --> 00:19:54,490 That's not for me. 532 00:19:54,620 --> 00:19:57,320 That's a question I can't answer. 533 00:19:57,330 --> 00:19:59,290 I'm 96 years old. 534 00:19:59,430 --> 00:20:02,430 There are several generations beyond me 535 00:20:02,460 --> 00:20:04,530 Who have got to face up to that. 536 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,670 It's theirs. 537 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,700 The people of scotland. 538 00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:13,510 [emma] personally, I'd love to see 539 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,140 An independent scotland, obviously, very soon. 540 00:20:16,210 --> 00:20:18,140 -[crowd cheering] -yeah, come on! 541 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,510 [nico] additionally, it's, to me, independence 542 00:20:20,580 --> 00:20:22,210 Is a means to an end, 543 00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:24,050 And that end being, you know, 544 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,850 A fairer, more open scotland for everyone. 545 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,650 [emma] we just have to keep pushing for it, 546 00:20:28,690 --> 00:20:31,860 And, soon, I think it will happen. 547 00:20:31,930 --> 00:20:34,860 Mm. Haven't stolen a single giant lump of rock yet though. 548 00:20:34,860 --> 00:20:36,360 -I mean, no. -[emma] not yet. 549 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,730 The night is young, you know? 550 00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:40,730 There's still things that can happen. 551 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,870 [calm music playing] 552 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:45,340 [marc] but there is one last twist. 553 00:20:45,370 --> 00:20:48,870 Ian's son jaime has something he wants to show me. 554 00:20:48,940 --> 00:20:52,680 This is a small bit of the stone of destiny 555 00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:53,910 Which broke off 556 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,210 When the stone of destiny 557 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:56,880 Was removed from westminster abbey. 558 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,490 And my father had the presence of mind to... 559 00:21:00,620 --> 00:21:02,220 -To trouser it... -[both laugh] 560 00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:04,620 And got it set in a brooch, 561 00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:07,490 And gave the brooch to my mother. 562 00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:08,960 You can't really own something like this, 563 00:21:09,030 --> 00:21:12,430 But it's been handed over for safekeeping. 564 00:21:12,430 --> 00:21:17,640 Um, you know, and it will go onto subsequent generations. 565 00:21:17,670 --> 00:21:19,870 [pensive music playing] 566 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,580 [marc] are you going to pass that on to felix one day? 567 00:21:24,610 --> 00:21:27,250 [jamie] undoubtedly, yeah, that will go to my son. 568 00:21:27,250 --> 00:21:28,450 Yeah. 569 00:21:28,450 --> 00:21:29,720 [marc] what sort of scotland 570 00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:31,480 Do you want for felix? 571 00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:34,050 [pensive music continues] 572 00:21:37,460 --> 00:21:39,890 [jamie] I would love felix to be raised in a country 573 00:21:39,890 --> 00:21:44,060 Which is ethnically diverse, open, friendly... 574 00:21:44,130 --> 00:21:45,800 Free, of course. 575 00:21:45,830 --> 00:21:48,070 And I'd hope that would remain for the future 576 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:50,340 For generations to come. 577 00:21:52,340 --> 00:21:53,610 [indistinct chatter] 578 00:21:57,250 --> 00:21:59,550 What makes scottish people special? 579 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,880 Being scots, for fuck's sake. 580 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,280 [marc laughs]