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It's frighteningly clear now

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that there is no way 
to win the struggle

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in which we are engaged

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without shedding torrents, 
veritable rivers of blood.

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It's an endless parade 
of the dregs of our society.

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This is your country.

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These are the people 
that live next door to you.

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This is what's become 
of your country.

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Neutering the Second Amendment 
with the assault weapons ban,

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violating the 10th Amendment 
with the Brady Bill,

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and slaughtering citizens

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using the ATF 
and the FBI Schutzstaffel

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is shredding the Constitution.

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The enemy has many resources 
and assets at their disposal.

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The best one 
we have here is you.

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- Yeah, now you're on it. 
- I don't think so.

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Yeah, the red light's on.

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Does it say "recording" there?

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Every April 19th is bittersweet.

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I remember exactly 
what I was doing that morning.

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Who's in that cave?

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What's on my back?

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A raccoon.

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My grandchildren, 
Chase and Colton,

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I went in and flipped 
the light on in their bedroom,

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and I sang, "Good morning
to you. Good morning to you.

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We're all in our places 
with sunshine-y faces.

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What a nice way 
to start a new Wednesday."

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And Chase begins to giggle.

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Those are so cute.

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What are you eating, Chase?

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Bye-bye.

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I remember when I left them 
at the daycare...

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- Look at his teefers. 
- I love you.

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Are we on our way to school?

36
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... there 
in the Federal Building.

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The little donut crumbs 
that were on their faces.

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Then, at 9:02...

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It looks like part of the building 
has been blown away.

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We'll have to bank around 
the other side

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so I can get 
a better view of it.

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As the chopper goes around the side 
of the Federal Building...

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-Wow. 
- Look at that shot.

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- Holy cow. 
- It's absolutely incredible.

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The side of the Federal Building 
has been blown off.

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Get back! 
Get 'em back!

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We got damage and injuries 
all up and down Broadway.

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Get them back!

49
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We need all fire, ambulances 
you can get.

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It felt to me 
like my skin was burning off.

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It was very hot, 
and it was a wind so powerful

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that it felt like 
it pinned my hair back.

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I heard a very loud explosion,

54
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and I noticed a plume of smoke

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coming up 
from downtown Oklahoma City.

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So I ran back in the house 
and turned on the TV.

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That's where my daughter, 
Frankie, works.

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And as we made our way closer 
to the building,

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I said, "my daughter is dead".

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I had little hope.

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Because Julie worked 
on the first floor.

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And of course the first floor had 
more deaths than any other floor.

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April 19th, 
my dad had an appointment

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to go down to the Social Security 
building that morning.

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I knew my mom 
went down with him.

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The news starts to come in, 
"There's been a bomb."

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When they said 
the Social Security building,

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everything at that moment 
just stopped.

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Got two down. 
They're unconscious and not moving.

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I need ambulances.

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In the heart of Oklahoma, 
in the heart of the capital city,

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a terrible bomb 
has been exploded.

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The governor has had a report 
that six children were killed

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in a daycare center.

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Got one here!

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In the basement 
of the Federal Building,

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there's a children's center.

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We need to get some fire department 
officials here as quick as we can.

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I said to my daughter, 
I said, "Edye, the babies."

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And we take off running 
to the north side of the building,

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and the building's gone.

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My son was 
an off-duty police officer.

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He saw his mom and his sister on TV, 
he knew something was wrong.

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I looked up at the TV,

85
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and I saw my mom and my sister 
clutching each other,

86
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and my sister was screaming,
"Where's my babies?"

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My babies were in there!

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Have we got information

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on where they have taken 
the children from the daycare?

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I have not been advised.

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Upon arrival at the site, my partner 
and I went into the rubble.

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I went to the back side 
of the building,

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which would be on the side 
of the daycare center.

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They had about 10 
to 12 children laid out

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on a piece of concrete slab.

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They were just laid 
one next to the other,

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and at the very end 
to the right, I found Colton.

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I knew that'd be the last time 
I saw my nephew.

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I asked a state law enforcement 
officer that was there

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if I could reach down, and hug him, 
and kiss him goodbye.

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And he told me, "This is a crime scene. 
Do not touch the evidence."

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Of all the sad stories 
in Oklahoma City today,

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the most heartbreaking may be 
the stories of the children

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who were in the daycare center 
when the bomb exploded.

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What is 
your overwhelming emotion

106
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as you face this horrendous tragedy 
in your family?

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Those babies were just 
like mine, and I loved them.

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And anybody could understand 
the loss of a child,

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but to then have to watch 
your child grieve

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over the loss of those children, 
it's devastating.

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Edye, are you confident that the people 
behind this will be caught?

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I don't know. I hope so. 
I don't know.

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As a young reporter, I used to cover 
Oklahoma City streets.

114
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Usually, nothing more exciting 
than a car crash.

115
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You know, everyone at NBC News 
knew I was an Okie

116
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because I always bragged about 
the fact that I was an Okie.

117
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So there was no doubt 
who they were gonna send.

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When I got to the site 
of the Federal Building,

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I thought, "This can't be the place 
where I lived, Oklahoma City."

120
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It reminded me of Beirut.

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It brought back memories 
of the Marine barracks,

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and the embassy bombing,

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and other terrorist attacks 
that I covered.

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And I said, "This is Oklahoma. 
This can't happen here."

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A U.S. government source 
has told CBS News

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it has Middle East terrorism 
written all over it.

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Everyone was thinking 
Arab terrorism

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because there'd been an attempt 
to bomb the World Trade Center.

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World Trade Center Bombing 
February 26, 1993

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And the bombers, 
they were from the Middle East.

131
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But I went to NBC and said,

132
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"Let me put together a team 
to investigate this."

133
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The first person I thought 
of was Bob Sands.

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I have this friend, 
and he had done some work

135
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for some far right-wing people 
in Duncan, Oklahoma.

136
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So I said, "Just check the boards 
and see what the chatter is."

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About an hour later 
he called me and said,

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"You're not gonna believe this. 
You need to come here."

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People were just going ape over it

140
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in the far right, 
the militia movement,

141
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saying, "Who did this? What's that 
all about? That's awesome."

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I would just ask that you 
and the American people

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not rush to any conclusions 
unsupported by known evidence

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and that we give investigators 
the space they need

145
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to do their job.

146
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My initial reaction was, 
first of all,

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to try to get everybody to calm down 
and not react with their words.

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I didn't wanna stir whatever 
was going on up any more.

149
00:10:02,799 --> 00:10:04,840
And everyone immediately assumed

150
00:10:04,919 --> 00:10:07,720
that it was 
a Muslim extremist attack,

151
00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:09,600
and I wasn't so sure.

152
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Shoot from the waist...

153
00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:15,360
My native state 
was almost like honey for bees

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to attract a lot 
of these extremist groups,

155
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and they moved in and out of there.

156
00:10:20,279 --> 00:10:26,080
When Oklahoma City happened, 
my life and experience told me

157
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that there was a very good chance 
that this was a homegrown plot.

158
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On the drive up there, there's 
a lot going through your head.

159
00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:38,159
You've gotta command 
a major bombing investigation,

160
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and you're thinking of 
all the things you have to do.

161
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And I am thinking, 
"April 19th, April 19th, okay."

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I just file it away. I get a call from 
a nationally known reporter,

163
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and she said, 
"Is this Middle Eastern?"

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I said, "No, it's Bubbas. 
April 19th."

165
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,840
Two years earlier, 
April 19th was the siege in Waco.

166
00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,360
And I thought we were seeing 
the results of that anger

167
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,440
against actions on the part 
of the government.

168
00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:05,279
My thought is it's gonna be Bubbas.

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00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,759
...damage. Emergency crews 
try to assist the injured.

170
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,600
That day, it was overwhelming 
to first go to the crime scene.

171
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,240
Secret Service, IRS, ATF,

172
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,279
multiple federal agencies 
were housed in that building.

173
00:11:23,519 --> 00:11:27,799
I was walking approximately a block 
and a half from the bomb scene.

174
00:11:27,879 --> 00:11:30,399
There were two FBI agents 
and a sheriff

175
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looking at this rear axle of a truck.

176
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They believed it had come 
from the truck

177
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responsible for the bombing,

178
00:11:38,919 --> 00:11:43,360
and they were removing 
the VIN number from the rear axle.

179
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And I told them to, 
"Guard that with your life.

180
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That's probably gonna be

181
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,679
the most important piece of evidence 
we have in this entire investigation."

182
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,000
We learned that particular truck 
had been rented

183
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,440
three or four days before 
in Junction City, Kansas.

184
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,440
The person who rented it went 
by the name of Robert Kling,

185
00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:10,559
and he used a birth date 
of April 19th.

186
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,720
The mechanic
that was working there

187
00:12:14,799 --> 00:12:19,480
probably had the best recollection 
of what he looked like.

188
00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,159
Also he had a recollection

189
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,639
of a person 
he thought had been with him,

190
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,960
commonly called 
John Doe Number 2.

191
00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:27,120
How you doing today, sir?

192
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,440
We're conducting an investigation 
into the Oklahoma City bombing.

193
00:12:29,519 --> 00:12:33,360
Have you noticed a Ryder truck 
or a yellow truck?

194
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,799
We sent agents 
all over the country,

195
00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:37,600
primarily on I-35,

196
00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,840
going north and south 
on the interstates.

197
00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:42,360
They went to a place 
called the Dreamland Hotel.

198
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,039
They interview the owner, 
show her pictures.

199
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,120
"Yeah, he was here. 
His name's Tim McVeigh."

200
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,279
He was 
a very nice young man basically.

201
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,600
It's very shocking to think somebody 
has such a deprived mind.

202
00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,360
We got the registration information. 
His name was Timothy McVeigh.

203
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,919
So an agent runs the name 
of Timothy McVeigh

204
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,519
and he gets a hit,

205
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,240
and says, "Boss, you're not 
gonna believe this bullshit,

206
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,240
but Timothy McVeigh 
is in custody."

207
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,039
He had been arrested

208
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,840
an hour and a half after the bombing
in Perry, Oklahoma.

209
00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:24,799
Here he is 
in his junker getaway car

210
00:13:24,879 --> 00:13:27,159
driving away 
from the scene of the crime.

211
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,840
And he gets on the thruway. 
He thinks he's gotten away with it.

212
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,159
It turns out that McVeigh 
was missing a license plate

213
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:38,559
from his vehicle.

214
00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:42,960
When the trooper starts questioning 
McVeigh, he ascertains

215
00:13:43,039 --> 00:13:46,960
that McVeigh is carrying 
an unregistered handgun.

216
00:13:47,639 --> 00:13:49,159
He arrests McVeigh.

217
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,240
McVeigh was wearing a T-shirt

218
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,120
celebrating the assassination 
of Abraham Lincoln.

219
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,480
And it always has astonished me

220
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,279
that nobody put these two things 
together at the time.

221
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,440
But for two full days, 
they had no idea

222
00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:09,200
that he was involved 
with the bombing.

223
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,440
And they were getting close 
to letting him go.

224
00:14:15,759 --> 00:14:17,000
It's just hard to believe.

225
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,919
You think it's gonna be 
a nationwide search,

226
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,559
and now you're told 
that he's roughly 70 miles away.

227
00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:27,519
I said, "Call them and tell them, 
'Don't let that boy out.'"

228
00:14:27,879 --> 00:14:31,440
You can imagine 
my phone ringing off my belt.

229
00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:34,279
I mean, 
the Attorney General's calling,

230
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,120
the director of the FBI's calling me, 
"Get him out of there."

231
00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:41,279
Well, I was concerned about a rescue 
or attempt to kill him.

232
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,279
And I didn't want to be the man

233
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,120
who took McVeigh into custody 
and got him killed. Not good.

234
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,120
I'd be working at Dairy Queen 
if that happened.

235
00:14:52,799 --> 00:14:55,159
He was captured about 30 miles 
from where I grew up.

236
00:14:56,039 --> 00:14:57,879
And I thought it was foreigners.

237
00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:00,879
I didn't want to believe 
an American could do this.

238
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,279
They marched Timothy McVeigh 
out of that jail,

239
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,679
and I go, "You know,
it wasn't a foreigner.

240
00:15:12,759 --> 00:15:16,600
This is an American 
doing this to Americans."

241
00:15:19,919 --> 00:15:23,720
I was a little surprised 
that it was an American.

242
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,320
I drew a conclusion pretty quick 
that this was payback for Waco

243
00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:31,039
and the kids that were killed there.

244
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,039
"You killed our kids, 
we're gonna kill your kids."

245
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,279
When I saw him on television,

246
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,720
I felt like I'd seen him 
in the building before.

247
00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:43,919
I remember being in the elevator,

248
00:15:44,879 --> 00:15:47,600
and two men got on the elevator,

249
00:15:47,679 --> 00:15:50,240
and one of them was McVeigh.

250
00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:54,559
I always wondered 
if that was real

251
00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:59,279
or if I imagined that, 
with everything else going on.

252
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,480
He had that orange jumpsuit on.

253
00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:09,279
And my thought was, "I hope 
that somebody has a rifle

254
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,519
and can just 
pick him off there."

255
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,399
I mean, I was really wishing 
for that.

256
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,320
You're looking for the monster,

257
00:16:17,399 --> 00:16:20,240
and you finally get 
that day to see him,

258
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,759
and you're thinking like, 
"Wait a minute, is this him?"

259
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,759
He looked like anyone's kid.

260
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,000
Just your normal average Joe.

261
00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:35,759
He's got this look in his eyes.

262
00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:40,919
I believed that, in his mind,
he wanted to look out at the crowd,

263
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,200
right straight into the cameras, and go, 
"You're goddamn right I did it,

264
00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:47,799
and you're cowards 
if you don't do the same thing."

265
00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:55,759
There goes Tim McVeigh, 
the first confirmed arrest

266
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,600
in the Oklahoma bombing case.

267
00:17:04,279 --> 00:17:07,240
After we had McVeigh in custody, 
I had McVeigh's father

268
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:09,200
flown to Oklahoma City 
to meet with me.

269
00:17:09,279 --> 00:17:13,000
I asked him, "You know your son. 
Who would be involved in this?"

270
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,799
And he said, "Terry Nichols 
and Michael Fortier." Like that.

271
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,319
We learned that he had been 
in basic training

272
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,240
at Fort Benning, Georgia 
with a couple of guys

273
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:24,759
named Terry Nichols 
and Michael Fortier.

274
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,359
Terry Nichols was older, 
but they had struck up a friendship

275
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,599
based on their political beliefs.

276
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,519
We then learned Terry Nichols 
is now living in Kansas.

277
00:17:37,759 --> 00:17:41,480
At his residence, we find 
the remnants of fertilizer

278
00:17:41,559 --> 00:17:43,640
that was used 
in the bombing itself.

279
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,319
But one of the biggest and most 
important pieces of information

280
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,480
is a telephone card

281
00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:54,240
sold by a right-wing group
called Spotlight.

282
00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:57,440
We pretty much 
were able to trace

283
00:17:57,519 --> 00:18:00,319
where they had been 
throughout the United States

284
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,119
through that calling card.

285
00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:07,640
We find that Michael Fortier 
is now living in Arizona.

286
00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:11,720
I think people are looking 
right now for somebody to hang.

287
00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:14,200
Now he may feel like 
there's nobody on this earth

288
00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:17,119
that is in any way supportive 
of him.

289
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,039
But there is. There is.

290
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,640
Everybody should be supportive 
of him, because he is an innocent man.

291
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,319
I interviewed Michael Fortier.

292
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,079
I said to him, "I need your help."
And he said,

293
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,000
"You don't understand. We're at war." 
I said, "I'd have killed you today.

294
00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:36,359
I'd have killed you now 
if we were at war.

295
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:37,759
I'd have killed your buddies.

296
00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:39,799
We're not. You may be at war 
with your country.

297
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,319
Your country's not at war 
with you."

298
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,920
I do not believe that Tim blew up 
any building in Oklahoma.

299
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,000
And then he said to me, 
"It's about the Constitution."

300
00:18:49,079 --> 00:18:51,640
I said, "You're right. 
It is about the Constitution.

301
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,160
Let me tell you 
what's gonna happen.

302
00:18:53,839 --> 00:18:56,200
I'm gonna indict you
under the Constitution.

303
00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:57,960
I'm gonna convict you 
under the Constitution.

304
00:18:58,039 --> 00:19:00,279
We'll handle your appeals 
under the Constitution.

305
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,079
And sooner or later, 
somebody's gonna put you on a gurney

306
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,359
and stick a needle in your arm, 
and we're gonna kill you.

307
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,759
You better decide if you're 
on my side or their side."

308
00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:13,599
Later on, 
after McVeigh had been charged,

309
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,799
his attorneys let reporters 
meet with McVeigh one-on-one.

310
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,720
The ground rule is 
this is not an interview.

311
00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:22,319
This is kind of 
a "get to know you."

312
00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:25,880
I had covered
the first Gulf War,

313
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,000
and I knew he had been 
a veteran of that war.

314
00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:32,200
And we started talking about 
the Gulf War, and he kind of lit up

315
00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:34,839
because it was something 
that he could talk about,

316
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,519
that he felt proud of, 
that he had participated in.

317
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,359
And then I shifted 
the conversation

318
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,279
to his feelings 
about the U.S. government.

319
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,119
And I could see a light switch 
go off in his eyes.

320
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,359
And he went cold.

321
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,880
And you could see 
the anger well up.

322
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,440
And I thought at that point, 
"This guy for sure did it."

323
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:01,720
When Tim was identified,

324
00:20:01,799 --> 00:20:04,319
I just started 
delving into the far right.

325
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,759
I went to Little Rock, Arkansas 
and did a lot of research there,

326
00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:09,359
because back in those days,

327
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,200
you had to go 
actually look at hard paper.

328
00:20:11,279 --> 00:20:14,640
Turns out way back in 1983,

329
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,200
this virulent racist by the name 
of Richard Wayne Snell

330
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,119
had decided 
that he wanted to blow up

331
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,720
the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building 
in Oklahoma City.

332
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,400
I was stunned to find out 
that the far-right movement

333
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:29,920
wanted to blow up 
the Murrah Building.

334
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,000
Well, how come we never heard 
about that before?

335
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,519
Stay low! Get down! Whoo!

336
00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:47,799
Pro-gun patriotism is becoming 
more and more popular

337
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,000
among economically 
hard-pressed farmers.

338
00:20:50,079 --> 00:20:53,160
Traditionally strong, proud, 
independent farmers

339
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,799
are losing their farms 
in record numbers.

340
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,920
We think as many 
as a million family farms

341
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,119
were foreclosed on 
during the late '70s and early '80s.

342
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,319
No sale! No sale!

343
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,599
There was anger against the federal 
government's exploitation of farmers.

344
00:21:09,079 --> 00:21:12,039
Violence starts to occur
in the heartland

345
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,480
because they were desperate.

346
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,440
When Mr. Nixon was president,

347
00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:22,160
he encouraged farmers to plant 
fencerow to fencerow.

348
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,519
And they did.

349
00:21:23,599 --> 00:21:27,480
But then when the Soviets 
invaded Afghanistan,

350
00:21:27,559 --> 00:21:29,799
President Carter put an embargo

351
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,279
on grain sales 
to the Soviet Union.

352
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,799
And the result was 
agricultural depression.

353
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,359
The federal government 
mustn't shirk its responsibility

354
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,119
to help undo some 
of the damage that it created.

355
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,680
We're doing a great deal 
to help farmers.

356
00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:46,960
But the federal government
will not bail out

357
00:21:47,039 --> 00:21:48,720
every farmer hopelessly in debt.

358
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:52,000
So today I have vetoed 
this massive new bailout.

359
00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:58,160
Ronald Reagan basically left 
the farmers to just go bankrupt.

360
00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,599
No sale!

361
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,200
Far-right leaders saw 
a political opportunity.

362
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,519
The first wave 
of the patriot movement

363
00:22:05,599 --> 00:22:09,000
was able to successfully 
mobilize farmers

364
00:22:09,079 --> 00:22:11,160
into this far-right movement,

365
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,000
and they were willing to take up arms, 
and some of them did.

366
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,279
Everybody in the movement saw 
the land crisis, farm crisis,

367
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,640
as the government 
and major corporations

368
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,160
putting farmers 
into a financial bind.

369
00:22:26,279 --> 00:22:29,200
Where the government is making 
war with the American people

370
00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:30,599
and selling us out.

371
00:22:31,559 --> 00:22:35,240
I don't want to see 
our group or any group

372
00:22:35,319 --> 00:22:39,480
forced against their will 
into a confrontation.

373
00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:43,359
I'm a former extremist 
from a group known as CSA,

374
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,160
the Covenant, the Sword, 
and the Arm of the Lord

375
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,319
in Northern Arkansas 
back in the '70s and '80s.

376
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,640
For me, 
it was like heaven on earth.

377
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,440
The group was started originally 
by Jim Ellison

378
00:22:57,519 --> 00:23:00,880
to establish a community
based upon the apocalypse.

379
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:04,279
God began to deal with us

380
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,079
about the economic judgment, 
collapse, and upheaval

381
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,279
that was coming 
upon all the world.

382
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:10,799
And especially on this country.

383
00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,039
He said, "How are you gonna protect 
yourself when it collapses,

384
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,519
and bad people want 
what you have?"

385
00:23:17,599 --> 00:23:21,119
The Bible says we have the right to use 
whatever the enemy uses,

386
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:22,880
and the enemy, of course, 
is gonna have guns.

387
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:23,880
Fire!

388
00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:28,000
We had never talked 
about guns before.

389
00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:30,160
We had never talked about defense.

390
00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:35,720
Over the next 18 months,

391
00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:38,680
we started buying guns, 
buying military equipment,

392
00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:42,519
and we trained so well 
that a magazine in those days

393
00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:44,960
called us the number one 
civilian SWAT team

394
00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:46,119
in the United States.

395
00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:51,119
The church kind of went 
to the background.

396
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,839
Guns and warfare went 
to the forefront.

397
00:23:57,519 --> 00:24:00,079
The first plan 
that we talked about

398
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,680
was the Oklahoma City 
Federal Building.

399
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,160
Sort of a quasi-member 
of the group,

400
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,640
Richard Wayne Snell, 
he lived in Oklahoma,

401
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,359
was having trouble with the IRS.

402
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,599
Him and Jim went
and cased the Murrah Building.

403
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,200
There was 
a lot of federal offices

404
00:24:17,279 --> 00:24:19,359
in that building, 
so it seemed like a good target

405
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,920
of various agencies 
being in that building.

406
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,680
So we had our munitions guy 
start to develop a rocket launcher,

407
00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:30,119
and all the rockets 
would be shot at the same time

408
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,440
toward the Murrah Building.

409
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,640
One of the missiles exploded 
in the guy's hands

410
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,160
that was building them, 
scarred his hands real bad.

411
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,359
So we took that 
as a sign from God

412
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,279
that we weren't supposed
to do that particular plan.

413
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,279
I was surprised as to the extent 
of violence of this group,

414
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,880
believing that they were 
gonna cause the collapse

415
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,119
of the United States of America

416
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,119
and that they were going 
to help create that collapse.

417
00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:02,039
We actually learned 
that Richard Wayne Snell,

418
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,240
a member of the CSA,

419
00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:08,039
shot and killed 
a pawn shop owner in Texarkana,

420
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:09,839
believing he was Jewish,

421
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,440
had killed Louis Bryant, 
a state police trooper.

422
00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:15,319
Murdered I believe 
that was in '84.

423
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,759
Got out of my van,

424
00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:21,079
and I shot Officer Bryant twice 
from the hip.

425
00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:23,480
The death 
of Trooper Louis Bryant

426
00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:25,920
was especially heartbreaking 
for Bill Clinton.

427
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,000
While the governor was visibly 
shaken over the slaying,

428
00:25:28,079 --> 00:25:29,519
he was also angry.

429
00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:31,920
They don't have a right 
to go around carrying weapons

430
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,759
and taking the law 
in their hands

431
00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:36,119
and acting as if 
they're somehow playing God.

432
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,119
Snell got the death penalty.

433
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,799
Snell's execution was to be 
on the night of April 19th, 1995,

434
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,640
which happened to be the day

435
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,880
the Oklahoma City
Federal Building got bombed.

436
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,039
In the movement, 
April 19th, of course,

437
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:55,799
is what's called Patriot's Day.

438
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,119
First shot fired during 
the American Revolution.

439
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,559
Very special 
for the whole movement.

440
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,480
Jim told me one time, he said, 
"I will go down in history

441
00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:09,240
in the second 
American Revolution."

442
00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:15,400
In '84, I told Jim, I said, 
"So you really want all this to start?"

443
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,079
He said, "Yes." 
I said, "So build a bomb,

444
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,279
and we'll start the war."

445
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:24,599
So they decided to go to find 
a good place to do the bombing.

446
00:26:27,279 --> 00:26:29,200
We found the gay church.

447
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,279
We sorta had this stereotype 
image in our heads

448
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,880
that there was just gonna be 
this sexual orgy going on,

449
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,000
which of course there wasn't.

450
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,440
I started seeing 
people lift their hands up

451
00:26:43,519 --> 00:26:46,640
and lift their eyes up, look up, 
and start worshipping God.

452
00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:50,200
And I identified with them.

453
00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:54,519
So instantly they ceased being 
homosexuals in my eyes

454
00:26:54,599 --> 00:26:57,559
and became Christians, 
and I couldn't kill Christians.

455
00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:02,920
Later, I'm trying 
to talk to God.

456
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,640
And I said, 
"Lord, I wanna leave."

457
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,960
You know,
"I can't handle this no more."

458
00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:10,279
And the Lord spoke to me 
and said, "You can't leave."

459
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,559
It looks like a battle zone.

460
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,799
Police and federal agents 
blockading the roads,

461
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,359
surrounding 
the heavily armed compound

462
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,400
of a white supremacist sect 
calling itself

463
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,079
the Covenant, the Sword, 
and the Arm of the Lord.

464
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,359
They want to arrest the leader, 
James Ellison,

465
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,039
on an illegal weapons charge.

466
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,240
The Covenant, the Sword, 
and the Arm of the Lord,

467
00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:31,920
they lived in log cabins.

468
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,480
Every log cabin had a trapdoor.

469
00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:38,240
When you dropped through 
the trapdoor, you were in a foxhole

470
00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:40,559
with your weapon 
and ammunition ready.

471
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,839
Federal officials,

472
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,640
they really wanted 
to storm this compound

473
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:47,960
like what later happened 
at Waco.

474
00:27:49,839 --> 00:27:52,720
We knew 
that a frontal assault attack

475
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:55,640
on that entity, 
a lot of people would die.

476
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,000
And we didn't want that. 
I do not want that.

477
00:27:58,079 --> 00:27:59,519
My job is not to kill people.

478
00:27:59,599 --> 00:28:00,920
I know how, 
but I don't wanna do it.

479
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,240
And I didn't want to get 
into a shootout in the Ozarks.

480
00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:06,880
They had murder on their mind,
and they were all doing it for God.

481
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:09,559
I found somebody 
I could talk to.

482
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,000
Actually, he came to me. 
Kerry Noble.

483
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,839
He said, "I want to make this plain. 
We are not gonna shoot first.

484
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,480
We don't wanna kill anybody here.

485
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,680
But if y'all shoot first, 
I've got a Huey helicopter.

486
00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:27,880
It's gonna come up. 
It's got a .50-caliber machine gun,

487
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,319
and it's gonna start shooting 
holes in all of your buildings.

488
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,039
And in 30 seconds, 
every man, woman, and child

489
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,119
in your compound 
is gonna be dead."

490
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,960
So for four days,
I went back and forth

491
00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:39,759
talking to Jim, talking to Danny.

492
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,319
Finally on the fourth day, 
Jim got that revelation

493
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,200
that he could justify in his mind 
a higher purpose in surrendering.

494
00:28:50,519 --> 00:28:53,119
We get down there, 
and then Danny looks at Jim

495
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,160
and says, 
"I'm placing you under arrest,

496
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,880
but I'm not gonna handcuff you 
right now

497
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,559
because I would not wanna be 
handcuffed in front of my men."

498
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:01,480
I'm just bawling.

499
00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:07,920
The four-day siege 
ended as quietly as it began.

500
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,640
The FBI got 
more than it bargained for.

501
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,319
Other weapons found at the camp 
read like an arsenal checklist:

502
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,240
hand-grenade casings, 
blasting caps,

503
00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:18,839
dynamite, and various handguns.

504
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,400
We found cyanide 
in huge barrels.

505
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,720
They were gonna poison 
the water supplies.

506
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:27,000
In addition to the arrest 
of CSA leader James Ellison

507
00:29:27,079 --> 00:29:28,480
by federal 
and state authorities...

508
00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:31,799
Jim ended up taking a plea bargain 
on the weapons charges.

509
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,880
I got arrested, 
ended up plea-bargaining,

510
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,559
five-year sentence.

511
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,160
My dream for moving there 
had turned into a nightmare.

512
00:29:43,759 --> 00:29:45,920
But the movement 
continued to grow.

513
00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:52,720
The white power movement 
had come together every summer

514
00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:55,599
at the Aryan Nations World Congress 
in Hayden Lake, Idaho.

515
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,759
In 1983, the movement adopted 
a number of key strategies,

516
00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:04,119
and it decided to declare war 
on the federal government.

517
00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:08,960
There is nothing more 
that the white Aryan can do

518
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:11,480
but obey the commandment 
of Yahweh, his God,

519
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:13,079
and separate himself.

520
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,319
Blood, blood.

521
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,240
The Founding Fathers 
shed their blood

522
00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:19,799
to give you this country.

523
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,000
And if you wanna hold on to it,

524
00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:24,519
you're gonna have to shed 
some of yours!

525
00:30:24,599 --> 00:30:28,519
They thought mainstream politics 
could never, ever deliver

526
00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:31,079
the kinds of social changes 
they wanted.

527
00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:41,119
In the '80s, there is a major 
campaign of violence and crime

528
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,440
carried out by this movement 
across the United States.

529
00:30:43,519 --> 00:30:44,440
Right turn!

530
00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:49,720
Robbing of armored cars,

531
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,400
bombings of gay theaters, 
assassinations.

532
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,880
Alan Berg was killed in ambush, 
arriving at his Denver home.

533
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:57,680
Ten .45-caliber 
shell casings...

534
00:30:57,759 --> 00:30:58,720
It's a spree.

535
00:30:59,519 --> 00:31:03,160
By 1987, the government believes 
it has a case

536
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,880
that all of this activity represents 
an organized criminal conspiracy

537
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,680
to overthrow 
the United States government.

538
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:14,160
Charges of sedition are filed 
against Reverend Butler and others.

539
00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:16,559
In its opening statement, 
the government said

540
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,920
it intends to prove that 
ten of the defendants plotted

541
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,279
to overthrow the government by force.

542
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:23,960
Seditious conspiracy is 
a hard charge to prove.

543
00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:25,759
Prosecutors have to show

544
00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:28,640
that they intended to overthrow 
the U.S. government

545
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,200
and had the capacity to do so.

546
00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:32,640
What the FBI now sees 
across the country is

547
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,039
a national network of neo-Nazis 
and white supremacist groups

548
00:31:36,119 --> 00:31:38,039
whose goal 
is to purge this country

549
00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:40,559
of Blacks, Jews, 
and other minorities.

550
00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:44,519
One, I want to praise 
Yahweh's holy and precious name.

551
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,960
Two, I want to say to hell 
with the federal government.

552
00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:50,880
Louis Beam is really 
the intellectual architect

553
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,680
of leaderless resistance.

554
00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:57,440
This has been the biggest legacy 
of the white power movement

555
00:31:57,519 --> 00:32:00,599
and the reason
it's been with us since 1983.

556
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,200
Activists can work violently 
in common cause

557
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:06,720
without direct communication 
with leaders.

558
00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:08,680
There are still leaders 
in leaderless resistance,

559
00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:11,039
but they're not culpable 
because you can't trace them

560
00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:12,839
to the individual violent actions.

561
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,720
I understood that 
that was their intent.

562
00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:20,200
But I also knew 
that an Arkansas jury

563
00:32:20,279 --> 00:32:24,400
would have a hard time 
convicting these folks

564
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,039
of attempted overthrow 
of the United States government

565
00:32:28,119 --> 00:32:30,440
when they had no capacity, 
really, to do that.

566
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:33,200
That's why it's called 
a conspiracy.

567
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,559
The thought was trying 
to overthrow the government.

568
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:42,240
ØActually, they couldn't do it. 
But they surely tried.

569
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,640
The government had really 
bet the farm on this trial.

570
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,799
They had used 
all of these other busts

571
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,160
to kind of amass 
state's witnesses.

572
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,480
And it fails spectacularly.

573
00:32:56,279 --> 00:32:59,680
It was the first serious setback 
in the federal government's war

574
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:01,960
against suspected 
white supremacist groups.

575
00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:05,480
Thirteen defendants were found 
not guilty of all charges,

576
00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:07,440
which included murder, robbery,

577
00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:09,519
and conspiracy 
to overthrow the government.

578
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,720
It was a tremendous defeat 
for the government.

579
00:33:13,799 --> 00:33:16,480
And it totally enabled 
the far-right movement.

580
00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:18,640
"We're free to go do 
whatever we want to do.

581
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,319
They tried. They missed.

582
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,039
We have got them 
by the short hairs."

583
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,079
Sheila Beam passed out

584
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,160
and had to be carried off 
by her husband,

585
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,400
who now walks free.

586
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,680
Leaderless resistance 
was Louis Beam's idea,

587
00:33:29,759 --> 00:33:33,160
and he passed it along 
to everybody else in the movement.

588
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,000
The best way
to go after the government

589
00:33:36,079 --> 00:33:39,920
was not to have 
this organized CSA compound

590
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,920
but to have individuals,

591
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,440
which led, of course, 
to the term "lone wolves".

592
00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:01,839
Iraqi troops have crossed 
the border into Kuwait.

593
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,559
As was the case in the 1930s,

594
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,519
we see in Saddam Hussein 
an aggressive dictator

595
00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:09,800
threatening his neighbors.

596
00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:14,320
In our history of extremist movements 
in the United States,

597
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,840
the most consistent correlation 
with spikes in membership

598
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,679
is the aftermath of combat.

599
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,840
Louis Beam understood this veteran
connection very, very well.

600
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,519
He did this very specifically,

601
00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:34,199
going to military bases, 
recruiting active-duty troops,

602
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:35,239
recruiting veterans.

603
00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:39,480
These groups move from, you know, 
the white robe and hood

604
00:34:39,559 --> 00:34:41,199
to camouflage fatigues,

605
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,599
able to take in a new generation 
of veterans coming home.

606
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,519
Most notably, Timothy McVeigh.

607
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,079
Tim McVeigh came from a family

608
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,480
that was literally 
the salt of the earth.

609
00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:00,239
They had come over 
in the 19th century

610
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,119
to help with the canal

611
00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:05,559
and earned enough money 
to buy some farmland.

612
00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:08,480
You had the dawn 
of the automobile

613
00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:12,360
and Harrison Radiator, 
this sprawling plant

614
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,679
where as many as 8,000 people 
worked at one time.

615
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,760
And that was the world that Bill McVeigh 
was offering to his son.

616
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,760
All four houses we lived in,

617
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,760
we always had a pretty good-sized 
garden. We had a pool here.

618
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,679
Sometimes in the summer, 
I'd come home from work,

619
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,000
and there'd be 15 kids 
in the pool.

620
00:35:33,079 --> 00:35:34,760
Family right next door, 
the McDermotts,

621
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,559
they had a daughter the same age 
as Jennifer, Mollie.

622
00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:39,360
They were good
everyday neighbors.

623
00:35:40,559 --> 00:35:43,679
He would play with us, 
he would babysit us,

624
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,159
he took us trick-or-treating. 
I've known his family forever.

625
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,199
I'm sure that the divorce 
of his parents was hard.

626
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,760
When the split occurred, 
he chose to stay with his dad.

627
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,639
There was nobody that 
McVeigh loved or admired more

628
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,039
than his grandfather, 
Ed McVeigh.

629
00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:07,440
He taught Tim McVeigh

630
00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:11,800
all about proper handling 
of guns, how to use guns.

631
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,400
I think he equated guns 
with his beloved grandfather.

632
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,159
Tim McVeigh's father worked
at a G.M. plant for 30 years.

633
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,159
Tim McVeigh's grandfather worked 
in the same plant for 30 years.

634
00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:27,679
By the time McVeigh came along,

635
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,880
that plant was shrinking 
almost to nonexistence.

636
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,880
The industrial decline 
of the Buffalo area

637
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,400
was a formative influence 
on McVeigh.

638
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:41,960
At the same time, 
Terry Nichols was growing up

639
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:45,840
on a small struggling farm 
in the thumb of Michigan.

640
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,320
And the farm crisis 
was making it harder and harder

641
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,400
for farmers like him to survive.

642
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,199
So McVeigh and Nichols represent

643
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,519
the crisis in American agriculture

644
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:03,480
and the crisis in American industry 
to an almost perfect degree.

645
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,239
I don't know when the idea to go 
into the military really came,

646
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:16,519
but the first time I even sensed 
Tim seeming different

647
00:37:16,599 --> 00:37:20,400
was after his time over 
during the Gulf War.

648
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,840
The bombing in Iraq 
began 24 hours ago.

649
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,639
It is still going on.

650
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:29,679
Watch your lane.

651
00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:37,079
At Fort Benning, Terry Nichols became 
one of McVeigh's best friends.

652
00:37:37,159 --> 00:37:42,119
He was very influential 
on McVeigh's views of politics.

653
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,360
McVeigh became close
to Michael Fortier,

654
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,800
who would smoke dope 
when he was out on patrol.

655
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,119
One of the very first 
experiences McVeigh had

656
00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:57,880
after joining the Army 
was these drill sergeants,

657
00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:01,840
they would scream things like, 
"Kill, kill, kill!"

658
00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:08,599
McVeigh became 
a very skilled sharpshooter

659
00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:11,159
in the Bradley military vehicle.

660
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,039
In one instance, 
he spotted two Iraqi soldiers,

661
00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:18,639
brought them into his sights.

662
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,239
He said all he saw 
was a red mist.

663
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,800
He was proud of his kill. 
He got a Bronze Star for it.

664
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,639
But as this very short war
progressed,

665
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:33,039
he saw the carnage

666
00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:36,159
from all of the bombs 
that had been dropped.

667
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,400
It was overkill to him.

668
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,800
This unit is trying to talk 
the Iraqis into surrendering.

669
00:38:45,639 --> 00:38:49,199
There are a group of men, Iraqis, 
to the right carrying white flags.

670
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,840
Over there, a large number 
of Iraqi tanks.

671
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,840
I've been in a lot of wars.

672
00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:58,159
And wars and combat affect 
different people different ways.

673
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,239
I think what goes on 
in a lot of people who leave war

674
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,719
is that they had a purpose.

675
00:39:06,559 --> 00:39:11,079
And the purpose in Desert Storm
was to take back Kuwait

676
00:39:11,159 --> 00:39:13,239
and defeat 
Saddam Hussein's army.

677
00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:16,519
And that was a huge purpose, 
a huge global purpose.

678
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,079
Then you come back home, and...

679
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,039
you might have trouble finding a job, 
and you start getting discouraged.

680
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:30,480
Tim McVeigh and myself, 
we both have that title, veteran.

681
00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:32,599
We spend four, five, six, 
seven, eight, nine,

682
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:34,480
ten years of our life 
serving our nation.

683
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,159
Then when you get out of the military, 
you come back to the United States,

684
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,159
and everyone's telling you 
that you're wrong,

685
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,840
you shouldn't be killing people, 
we shouldn't be at war.

686
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,239
No blood for oil!

687
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,519
My daughter, Julie, demonstrated 
with a lot of other students

688
00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:53,599
against the Gulf War.

689
00:39:53,679 --> 00:39:57,159
And the results of that war 
is actually the very thing

690
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,880
that ended up causing her death.

691
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,039
How do you mean?

692
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:07,159
Well, because Tim McVeigh served 
in the Gulf War, had PTSD.

693
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:13,199
Those soldiers saw Iraqis get shot 
in the back and saw tanks

694
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,440
that actually buried 
some Iraqi soldiers alive.

695
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,280
They saw all of that angry stuff 
and came back angry,

696
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:21,639
angry young men.

697
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,840
After the war, McVeigh went 
to this Green Beret tryout.

698
00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:33,880
He failed in his tryout 
to become a Green Beret.

699
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,920
That was a demoralizing thing.

700
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,320
I think if he had succeeded 
and been selected as a Green Beret,

701
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,519
he probably would have been 
a great killing machine

702
00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:46,159
for the U.S. government.

703
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,320
He comes home, 
and he has a nervous breakdown.

704
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,679
He went over 
to his grandfather's house

705
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,199
in February a few months after 
he'd been out of the military

706
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:05,119
in a pair of sweatpants
and just socks, no shirt.

707
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:07,800
And Ed McVeigh 
opens the front door

708
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,360
and says, "Tim, Timmy, 
what's going on here?"

709
00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:14,559
He says, 
"I don't know, Grandpa."

710
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,639
McVeigh having PTSD, 
I think, helps to explain

711
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,760
maybe the vulnerability, 
the fragility of his thinking.

712
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,400
He would live in his car. 
He would sleep in his car.

713
00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:30,119
He would listen 
to right-wing radio

714
00:41:31,519 --> 00:41:33,519
and go 
from gun show to gun show.

715
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,400
He was operating 
as sort of a straw buyer.

716
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,760
He was buying guns for people 
who didn't want any kind of record

717
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,800
or even name associated 
with buying guns.

718
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,480
And he knew that these people 
were part of the insurgency.

719
00:41:50,159 --> 00:41:53,800
They're not just selling weapons. 
They're selling ideology.

720
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:56,800
I'm William Pierce,

721
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,519
and I'll be reading my book, 
The Turner Diaries, to you.

722
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,679
Listen carefully. 
"How it shamed us,

723
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,519
all that brave talk by patriots.

724
00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:10,280
'The government will never take 
my guns away.'

725
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,400
And then nothing but meek submission 
when it happened."

726
00:42:14,679 --> 00:42:17,719
Timothy McVeigh used 
this book as a Bible.

727
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,840
Both The Turner Diaries 
and McVeigh

728
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,440
targeted a federal building

729
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:26,199
that had federal 
law enforcement agents in it.

730
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,280
Both used a truck bomb.

731
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,599
Both used a mixture of fuel oil 
and ammonium nitrate fertilizer.

732
00:42:33,599 --> 00:42:36,000
The one that strikes me 
the most eerie

733
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:38,599
is the fact 
that the bomb that explodes

734
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:42,320
and blows up the FBI building 
in The Turner Diaries

735
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,880
went off at 9:15 AM.

736
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,760
The bomb in Oklahoma City 
went off at 9:02.

737
00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:55,800
He's got The Turner Diaries 
rolling in the back of his head,

738
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,119
his love of guns,

739
00:42:57,199 --> 00:43:00,920
and he's buying these videos
about things like Ruby Ridge.

740
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,800
Randy Weaver, a fugitive 
on a federal firearms charge,

741
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,760
has been holed up in a cabin near 
Naples for more than a year.

742
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,559
Ruby Ridge came about

743
00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:19,599
because of shady dealings 
by the federal government.

744
00:43:20,519 --> 00:43:23,000
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, 
and Firearms agents

745
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:25,599
were trying to recruit 
Randy Weaver

746
00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:27,920
to be an informant 
on the militia movement

747
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,239
by having another informant 
sell him a shotgun

748
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,719
that was a quarter of an inch 
shy of the legal limit.

749
00:43:35,119 --> 00:43:36,599
That looks a lot like entrapment.

750
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,360
With the sudden appearance 
of military hardware,

751
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,079
his one-man stand against the law 
is suddenly taking on the appearance

752
00:43:44,159 --> 00:43:45,599
of a full-blown war.

753
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,039
A federal agent 
has been shot and killed.

754
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:51,840
Randy Weaver's 
13-year-old son died

755
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,639
during the initial shootout Friday.

756
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,280
His blood is on all your hands!

757
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,000
Federal Marshals shot my son, 
Samuel, in the back

758
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:00,000
and killed him.

759
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,280
He was running home to me.

760
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:03,960
His last words were, 
"I'm coming, Dad."

761
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:10,000
The FBI adopted military rules 
of engagement at Ruby Ridge.

762
00:44:11,599 --> 00:44:14,000
The day after Sammy Weaver 
was shot,

763
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,880
a sniper fired at Randy.

764
00:44:19,079 --> 00:44:20,679
The bullet went into the cabin

765
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,079
and hit his wife, Vicki Weaver, 
in the head and killed her.

766
00:44:27,079 --> 00:44:28,719
Later, an investigation 
was done,

767
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,320
and the Department of Justice 
settled for $3.1 million

768
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,440
for unlawful death 
of Sammy Weaver and Vicki Weaver.

769
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,239
We have just got an update 
from federal authorities.

770
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:45,079
Randy's in good health. 
Unfortunately, Vicki is dead.

771
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,360
This time the federals 
came for Randy Weaver.

772
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,840
Next time, 
they may come for you.

773
00:44:57,559 --> 00:44:59,199
After Ruby Ridge,

774
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,519
McVeigh was on an odyssey 
to nowhere for about two years.

775
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,519
These ideas 
would just be turned over

776
00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:11,320
in his head again and again.

777
00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:14,159
His car was an old Chevy.

778
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,760
He nicknamed it 
the Road Warrior.

779
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,920
He reconnects with his Army buddies, 
Michael Fortier and Terry Nichols.

780
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,920
But there's a lot of alone time.

781
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,320
He's manufacturing his arguments 
of why he hates the government.

782
00:45:33,079 --> 00:45:35,719
It may not be popular 
in West Virginia or Arkansas,

783
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,840
where half the people have 
a hunting or a fishing license or both,

784
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,760
but I think we ought to pass 
the Brady Bill

785
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,519
and require a waiting period 
before people can get a handgun.

786
00:45:44,599 --> 00:45:47,280
I felt that 
if it was ever gonna be done,

787
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,079
I was in the best position, 
because I grew up in Arkansas.

788
00:45:51,159 --> 00:45:53,559
I had a .22 when I was 10.

789
00:45:53,639 --> 00:45:56,280
I had a .410 shotgun 
when I was 14.

790
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:57,639
I grew up in the culture.

791
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,440
There's really only one thing 
you need to know.

792
00:46:02,519 --> 00:46:05,199
The Democrats want to do away 
with the Second Amendment.

793
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,559
They want to end up 
registering every gun

794
00:46:09,639 --> 00:46:11,360
and its owner in this country.

795
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,000
And their ultimate objective 
is to see to it that nobody has any.

796
00:46:29,559 --> 00:46:32,159
Some people forget 
that Tim McVeigh was at Waco.

797
00:46:34,639 --> 00:46:36,639
He was handing out 
anti-government pamphlets.

798
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,239
He was carrying copies 
of The Turner Diaries.

799
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,719
He was talking to people 
during the standoff.

800
00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:46,800
If you're a true Christian, 
and you believe the truth,

801
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,559
and you know the truth, 
the truth will set you free.

802
00:46:48,639 --> 00:46:51,800
A group called the Branch Davidians, 
it was an offshoot

803
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,480
of the Seventh-day Adventist 
Church.

804
00:46:54,519 --> 00:46:56,880
About 100 people
headed up by a gentleman

805
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,480
by the name of David Koresh.

806
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:01,840
He predicted the end 
of the world was near,

807
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,880
that he was the Second Coming 
of Jesus Christ,

808
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,320
the apocalypse was going to happen, 
and it was going to start there

809
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,079
with a battle 
on the plains of Texas.

810
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,800
- You have guns? 
- That's nobody's business.

811
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,679
The ATF had information 
that there were automatic weapons,

812
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,320
they had grenades there, 
and as a result,

813
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,400
they were gonna launch an attack 
on the Branch Davidian compound.

814
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,079
Get my battery, John.
Get my battery behind the bus.

815
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,440
The ATF wanted to conduct 
a paramilitary raid.

816
00:47:34,519 --> 00:47:38,079
They had multiple opportunities 
to arrest David Koresh.

817
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,440
He jogged up and down 
Double EE Ranch Road

818
00:47:41,519 --> 00:47:43,360
right in front 
of these surveillance houses.

819
00:47:44,159 --> 00:47:47,719
They could've grabbed him then. 
They didn't want to arrest him.

820
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,719
They wanted a big show.

821
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:51,559
And it backfired on them.

822
00:47:56,119 --> 00:47:57,679
The ATF fired the first shot,

823
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,400
shooting the dogs that were 
outside guarding the property.

824
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:08,239
And then it erupted into gunfire. 
ATF was immediately pinned down.

825
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,119
Four of their agents 
were killed.

826
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,599
Sixteen were wounded.

827
00:48:15,679 --> 00:48:18,519
Five Davidians were killed 
that day.

828
00:48:18,599 --> 00:48:22,119
The Attorney General says 
that FBI should take over

829
00:48:22,199 --> 00:48:23,639
and try to get this thing resolved.

830
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,159
I was dispatched down there 
to do the press conferences.

831
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,519
We're dealing with people who are very 
committed to what they're doing.

832
00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:35,079
And we ended up 
spending 51 days there.

833
00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:41,719
I actually came here 
about three weeks into the standoff.

834
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,039
They wouldn't let anybody closer 
than, say,

835
00:48:44,119 --> 00:48:46,480
maybe a mile from here.
They had cordoned it off.

836
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,679
A lot of the people who showed up 
were far-right patriots.

837
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,599
They weren't aligned with, say,

838
00:48:52,679 --> 00:48:55,480
Davidian religious beliefs 
or sentiments.

839
00:48:55,559 --> 00:48:59,119
You have attempted to cover up 
the FBI and ATF crimes here.

840
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,480
It was already taking place, 
that co-optation of Waco

841
00:49:03,559 --> 00:49:05,280
for the far-right 
patriot movement.

842
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,360
Waco is not 
a white power community.

843
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,440
It is a multiracial community.

844
00:49:10,519 --> 00:49:13,400
The white power movement 
doesn't care about that very much.

845
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,679
And the compound itself,
because this goes on for so long,

846
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,559
becomes a site 
where white power activists

847
00:49:18,639 --> 00:49:20,239
can organize 
and talk to each other.

848
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,840
McVeigh travels to the Waco site.

849
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,360
I just arrived today.

850
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,400
Somebody told me a lot 
of people would be scared

851
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:29,960
to put something on like this.

852
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,599
Tim said to me, "The government 
is at war with us."

853
00:49:36,519 --> 00:49:37,840
He kept talking about this war.

854
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,199
And I wasn't even privy 
to this narrative or story.

855
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,800
So I ask him to explain it to me.

856
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,199
And he tells me 
that in the early '80s,

857
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,159
the Reagan administration pushes 
for a military role

858
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:50,159
in drug enforcement.

859
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,239
We waged a good fight.

860
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,480
The military forces

861
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:56,519
have dramatically reduced 
drug use by 67 percent.

862
00:49:56,599 --> 00:50:00,679
In order for civilian law enforcement 
to get military support,

863
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,880
they would have to show what's 
called a drug nexus at Waco.

864
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:08,800
The ATF manufactured 
a drug nexus that wasn't there.

865
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,280
They claimed that 
Branch Davidians had a meth lab.

866
00:50:13,639 --> 00:50:17,360
All those helicopters were part 
of the military support.

867
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,119
It's day 33 
of that cult standoff

868
00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:20,559
with federal authorities 
near Waco.

869
00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:22,280
Discussions about 
a surrender have slowed.

870
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,519
All day long, 
reinforcements were brought in

871
00:50:24,599 --> 00:50:26,679
from as far away as Fort Hood.

872
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,480
I think the ATF saw 
a political opportunity

873
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:32,679
in the election of Bill Clinton, 
who ran on gun control,

874
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,719
to expand its operation 
and expand its reputation.

875
00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:39,400
I was really torn by Waco.

876
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,519
The FBI kept pushing for action.

877
00:50:42,599 --> 00:50:47,199
And they acted like this would be, 
you know, not too difficult to do.

878
00:50:47,599 --> 00:50:49,519
And I got it, but I mean, 
the truth was

879
00:50:49,599 --> 00:50:52,039
they were frustrated 
by being defied.

880
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,039
Sometimes the right strategy 
is to wait.

881
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:57,400
And I told them the story 
of what we did

882
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,559
with the Covenant, the Sword, 
and the Arm of the Lord in Arkansas.

883
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:02,440
But they countered,

884
00:51:02,519 --> 00:51:04,960
and this is what really mattered 
to Janet Reno,

885
00:51:05,039 --> 00:51:08,639
with the prospect that Koresh 
and his inner circle

886
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,159
were abusing women and children.

887
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:15,199
Finally, I told them they should go look 
at the record of what we did,

888
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,679
but I would leave the decision 
up to them,

889
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,679
and if they decided to do it,
I would support them.

890
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,239
In Waco, Texas, 
the FBI has moved

891
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,079
to a new and more active stage.

892
00:51:25,159 --> 00:51:28,079
An armored vehicle 
began punching holes.

893
00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:31,079
They have been filling 
the compound with tear gas.

894
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:34,880
A little bit after noon,

895
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,199
they ended up setting fire 
to the entire compound.

896
00:51:40,519 --> 00:51:44,159
Here's another angle. You can see 
the black smoke from behind us.

897
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:46,840
And I was told by headquarters

898
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,639
I had to go back 
and do a final press conference.

899
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,719
I said, "What am I supposed to say? 
There's nobody left."

900
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,840
I have been asked
to read a statement

901
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,320
from the director of the FBI.

902
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,639
I was trying to comfort people,

903
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,239
but to see it all collapse 
was just overwhelming.

904
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,440
McVeigh is standing 
in the parlor

905
00:52:11,519 --> 00:52:14,039
of this old farmhouse 
that James Nichols owns,

906
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,679
watching this live image 
of Waco burning,

907
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,039
and tears are running 
down his eyes,

908
00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:24,559
and he's also thinking about 
his experience in the U.S. Army.

909
00:52:26,679 --> 00:52:28,079
It really bothered McVeigh

910
00:52:28,159 --> 00:52:31,159
that the same 
Bradley fighting vehicles

911
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,719
that he had fought in 
in the Persian War

912
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,559
were being used
against the people at Waco.

913
00:52:37,639 --> 00:52:41,000
That was the turning point 
for McVeigh.

914
00:52:41,079 --> 00:52:44,000
He said 
in that very moment he decided

915
00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:47,239
he was going to commit 
an act of terrorism.

916
00:52:54,519 --> 00:52:56,360
After Ruby Ridge and Waco,

917
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,159
we had this mass mobilization 
of militias.

918
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,119
This thing just really explodes.

919
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,039
The critical issue is guns.

920
00:53:14,079 --> 00:53:16,719
He became obsessed with the idea

921
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,000
the Democratic Party 
and Bill Clinton were scheming

922
00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:22,400
to take away 
Americans' right to guns.

923
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:27,119
McVeigh told a lot of people 
that he was just furious at me.

924
00:53:27,599 --> 00:53:30,480
He really hated
the Assault Weapons Ban.

925
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:32,559
It was the Assault Weapons Ban,

926
00:53:32,639 --> 00:53:36,320
just as much as Waco 
and Ruby Ridge,

927
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,039
that motivated McVeigh 
to bomb the Murrah Building.

928
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:42,440
We will finally ban these assault 
weapons from our street

929
00:53:42,519 --> 00:53:45,519
that have no purpose 
other than to kill.

930
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,760
McVeigh charged from one end 
of the country to the other.

931
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,719
Finally decided to build the bomb 
after months of buying

932
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,199
50-pound bags 
of ammonium nitrate

933
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,760
at weed-and-seed stores 
across the Midwest,

934
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,000
buying racing-car fuel 
down in Texas.

935
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,280
He ping-ponged back and forth 
from Kingman, Arizona,

936
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,079
to Decker, Michigan, 
to Buffalo, New York.

937
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:37,760
McVeigh told us, 
"Nichols and Fortier helped me."

938
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,159
He said, "I was the driving force 
behind all this.

939
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,400
It was my plan. 
It was my crime."

940
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:47,880
He came up with an action plan.

941
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,679
In Kansas, at the lake, 
the day before the bombing,

942
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,519
with some coercion 
to get Terry Nichols there,

943
00:55:00,599 --> 00:55:02,159
they build the bomb.

944
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,360
McVeigh said Nichols got cold feet 
and McVeigh threatened him.

945
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:09,679
That's why he went along with it.

946
00:55:17,119 --> 00:55:20,119
April 19th, 
he gets back on the interstate,

947
00:55:20,199 --> 00:55:21,360
traveling alone.

948
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:28,719
The enemy has many resources 
and assets at their disposal.

949
00:55:29,559 --> 00:55:31,679
The best one 
we have here is you.

950
00:55:43,039 --> 00:55:47,840
McVeigh told us that it was like 
the Death Star in Star Wars.

951
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,760
He said, "There were all kinds 
of people in that Death Star

952
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,199
who were just like secretaries 
and weren't leaders.

953
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:55,639
They were killed too.

954
00:55:56,519 --> 00:56:00,320
But people all applauded 
when the Death Star blew up."

955
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,360
He said, "Yes, 
innocent people had to die,

956
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,239
but that's the way it goes."

957
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,519
He calls them collateral damage.

958
00:56:29,559 --> 00:56:32,599
I walked over and introduced myself. 
I said, "Mr. McVeigh,

959
00:56:32,679 --> 00:56:34,280
I've been appointed 
to represent you."

960
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,880
And I think I said, 
"I'm from Enid, Oklahoma."

961
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,559
He shook my hand and said, 
"I heard you were coming."

962
00:56:40,639 --> 00:56:44,800
He explained very candidly

963
00:56:45,559 --> 00:56:47,760
why he did 
what he was accused of.

964
00:56:48,199 --> 00:56:51,320
He exhibited some pride

965
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,719
in that he had managed 
to carry it off.

966
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,800
He wanted a defense 
based on necessity.

967
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,679
Said, "I had to do it

968
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,400
because they were going to kill 
other American citizens.

969
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,159
They had to be taught a lesson."

970
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:10,079
And I said, "Well, Tim, 
tell me why it was necessary

971
00:57:10,159 --> 00:57:12,480
to kill children 
under the age of six."

972
00:57:13,159 --> 00:57:15,159
He said, "Well, 
there were children at Waco."

973
00:57:16,159 --> 00:57:19,559
And I said, 
"Well, that may be true,

974
00:57:19,639 --> 00:57:22,320
but that's not 
an explanation of the necessity.

975
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,519
What that is is revenge."

976
00:57:24,599 --> 00:57:26,559
After that wouldn't go anywhere,

977
00:57:26,639 --> 00:57:29,960
what I was trying to do was 
to raise a reasonable doubt.

978
00:57:30,039 --> 00:57:34,000
We could argue to the jury 
the government hasn't proven it.

979
00:57:34,079 --> 00:57:38,519
I'm hopeful that no one will embarrass
the state of Oklahoma

980
00:57:38,599 --> 00:57:41,960
by doing anything 
to any party in this case

981
00:57:42,039 --> 00:57:44,599
which would turn this 
into a three-ring circus.

982
00:57:44,679 --> 00:57:46,199
It couldn't be seen 
as a show trial.

983
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,320
It had to be seen as lawyers 
vigorously representing him.

984
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,079
My opposite number 
was Merrick Garland.

985
00:57:54,119 --> 00:57:56,440
He's been detained without bond.

986
00:57:56,519 --> 00:57:59,519
It's important to recognize 
how Merrick Garland structured

987
00:57:59,599 --> 00:58:02,639
the criminal investigation 
and trial of McVeigh.

988
00:58:02,719 --> 00:58:04,559
... testified that the cause 
of the explosion

989
00:58:04,639 --> 00:58:06,800
at the Murrah Building 
was a bomb

990
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,320
that was placed
inside a Ryder truck.

991
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,119
He had a prosecutor's view 
in the sense

992
00:58:13,199 --> 00:58:18,519
that he wanted to keep the trial 
narrow and focused and limited

993
00:58:18,599 --> 00:58:21,000
to what was needed 
to make the case

994
00:58:21,079 --> 00:58:23,400
against first McVeigh 
and then Nichols.

995
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:27,360
Can you give us any estimate 
of how many people you still expect

996
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,000
to bring additional charges 
against in this case?

997
00:58:30,079 --> 00:58:31,880
No, I'm sorry. 
I really have to limit myself

998
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:33,440
to what happened 
in the hearing today.

999
00:58:33,519 --> 00:58:36,840
Merrick always kind of kept his finger 
on the pulse of the case.

1000
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,320
You know, I'm not religious,

1001
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,119
but I did feel 
during that period of time

1002
00:58:42,199 --> 00:58:43,800
like, "Oh, this is 
why I'm here."

1003
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:48,039
I mean, I really felt like 
I was doing something

1004
00:58:48,119 --> 00:58:50,159
that mattered 
and that was worth doing.

1005
00:58:52,039 --> 00:58:55,400
On April 19th, 1995, the bomb went off, 
I was in the office.

1006
00:58:58,119 --> 00:58:59,519
DOJ wanted to show

1007
00:58:59,599 --> 00:59:03,199
that the country could give 
a fair trial and due process

1008
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:04,280
to these individuals.

1009
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,119
This was right after 
the O.J. Simpson case,

1010
00:59:07,199 --> 00:59:10,519
where there was such fanfare 
and media attention.

1011
00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:14,880
Merrick wanted this to be all about
the crime that had occurred

1012
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,960
and holding 
the individuals accountable.

1013
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,920
In the original indictment 
itself, it did say

1014
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,239
Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols, 
and "others unknown."

1015
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,840
- Why am I so confident we got...? 
- Why are you so confident?

1016
00:59:30,599 --> 00:59:33,440
The thoroughness 
of the investigation.

1017
00:59:33,519 --> 00:59:35,599
FBI interviewed so many people 
that we could find.

1018
00:59:35,679 --> 00:59:38,800
If you wanted to, you know, 
find somebody who said that,

1019
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,079
you know, Madonna did the bombing, 
you could find someone like that.

1020
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,719
Both Nichols and McVeigh
had big defense teams

1021
00:59:48,079 --> 00:59:49,400
at taxpayer expense.

1022
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,400
And I think 
their strategies differed.

1023
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,599
Stephen Jones had this whole 
public relations strategy,

1024
00:59:56,679 --> 00:59:58,679
where he, you know, 
traveled around the world

1025
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,519
to try to find 
these "others unknown."

1026
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,800
To say that there were 
others unknown was true.

1027
01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:07,599
We were accused 
of being conspiracy theorists,

1028
01:00:07,679 --> 01:00:10,719
but, of course, it was the government 
that alleged there was a conspiracy.

1029
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,440
We were just simply arguing over

1030
01:00:12,519 --> 01:00:14,679
how large was the conspiracy 
and who was there.

1031
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:22,519
Tim wanted to be seen as, 
"This was the perfect mission.

1032
01:00:22,599 --> 01:00:25,440
The building was destroyed, 
people were killed,

1033
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,920
there will be a revolution. 
I have set the revolution in motion.

1034
01:00:31,199 --> 01:00:33,960
Me. No one else, me. 
Me, myself, and I."

1035
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:36,840
It took probably about...

1036
01:00:38,159 --> 01:00:42,800
seven or eight days for me to start 
realizing that he was lying.

1037
01:00:43,679 --> 01:00:44,880
Repeatedly.

1038
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,679
Probably the first one, I said, 
"Tim, you've told me

1039
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:49,920
that no one else is involved.

1040
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,480
So why is the government talking 
to Michael and Lori Fortier?

1041
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,000
What do they know
that we don't know?"

1042
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,840
He didn't wanna reveal 
who others were.

1043
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:03,480
He didn't wanna solve 
the mystery.

1044
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,280
It was actually 
my husband, Glenn,

1045
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,119
who started asking questions.

1046
01:01:13,199 --> 01:01:18,360
It's consumed our life. Our life took 
a 180-degree turn that day.

1047
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,559
And it probably will never be 
the same again.

1048
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,280
After the bombing, 
I was so broken.

1049
01:01:26,599 --> 01:01:29,639
For the first few weeks, 
I probably sat in a chair and cried.

1050
01:01:30,559 --> 01:01:33,239
But when I got out of the chair,

1051
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,079
we had a dinner at our home

1052
01:01:35,159 --> 01:01:37,159
for the families 
that had lost their children.

1053
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:40,199
The saddest of times.

1054
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,000
You get 19 families 
that lost their children.

1055
01:01:44,599 --> 01:01:46,119
One of the young mothers said

1056
01:01:46,199 --> 01:01:48,880
when she dropped her boy off 
that morning,

1057
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:52,119
that she had seen 
the bomb squad downtown.

1058
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:55,440
We're going, "How do you know 
it was the bomb squad?"

1059
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,519
Finally, very indignantly, 
she said they had big blue letters.

1060
01:02:00,519 --> 01:02:03,800
Then we found a newspaper article 
from The Panola Watchman.

1061
01:02:06,159 --> 01:02:08,800
It was an interview 
about this whole office full of people.

1062
01:02:09,679 --> 01:02:12,760
They had been watching 
the bomb squad in the alleyway.

1063
01:02:14,719 --> 01:02:18,679
The next day my husband, Glenn, 
goes to the fire station.

1064
01:02:19,519 --> 01:02:22,800
The fire chief said, 
"Oh, no, sir, we had no idea."

1065
01:02:23,719 --> 01:02:26,159
As my husband's leaving, 
the dispatcher there, he says,

1066
01:02:26,239 --> 01:02:28,199
"I'm not gonna lie for anybody."

1067
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:30,400
He said, "We got a memo 
in this office last week

1068
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,760
to be on high terrorist alert."

1069
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:35,719
The fire department 
received a call from the FBI

1070
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,599
five days before the bombing, 
warning that

1071
01:02:38,679 --> 01:02:40,559
"there were some people 
coming through town

1072
01:02:40,639 --> 01:02:42,960
they should be on the lookout for."

1073
01:02:43,039 --> 01:02:46,719
When the fire chief is confronted
with this information, he said,

1074
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,280
"You know what, 
I made a mistake.

1075
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:52,079
It was our bomb squad truck 
down there."

1076
01:02:52,679 --> 01:02:56,079
The ATF director told reporters 
they had taken some precaution

1077
01:02:56,159 --> 01:02:58,639
for the second anniversary 
of the siege in Waco.

1078
01:02:58,719 --> 01:03:00,199
I was very concerned about that.

1079
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,639
We did some things 
here in headquarters

1080
01:03:02,719 --> 01:03:04,960
and in all of our field offices 
throughout the country

1081
01:03:05,039 --> 01:03:08,239
to try to be more observant. 
But it was primarily...

1082
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:09,920
We didn't anticipate 
something like this.

1083
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:14,559
We were thinking about
demonstrations and things like that.

1084
01:03:14,639 --> 01:03:16,199
I think, yeah, 
we should have known

1085
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:18,440
that there was some danger 
in the building that day

1086
01:03:18,519 --> 01:03:24,280
due to the fact that April 19th 
is such a special day to the right wing.

1087
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,559
So you're not somebody 
that could be characterized

1088
01:03:26,639 --> 01:03:29,199
as a conspiracy-theory person,

1089
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:31,400
in the sense that you feel 
the federal government was,

1090
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,440
in some way, 
part of this explosion?

1091
01:03:33,519 --> 01:03:35,039
No. Not at all.

1092
01:03:36,119 --> 01:03:40,159
Glenn and I had so many questions. 
After the bombing,

1093
01:03:40,239 --> 01:03:42,480
they started the biggest manhunt
in American history

1094
01:03:42,559 --> 01:03:43,840
for John Doe Number 2.

1095
01:03:45,119 --> 01:03:47,599
And then they called it off.

1096
01:03:49,519 --> 01:03:52,400
The government 
originally described two men.

1097
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,199
They had the sketches of them.

1098
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,599
And there were 
numerous credible people

1099
01:03:56,679 --> 01:04:00,199
in downtown Oklahoma City 
just before the bombing

1100
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,639
that claimed that they saw 
McVeigh and someone else.

1101
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:06,840
The government then, 
about 30 days later,

1102
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:10,039
said there isn't any John Doe 2. 
It was a mistake.

1103
01:04:12,039 --> 01:04:16,840
We had learned enough by then that 
we knew there was something wrong.

1104
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,000
Twenty-two eyewitnesses 
told the FBI

1105
01:04:22,079 --> 01:04:24,480
they saw McVeigh downtown 
the morning of the bombing,

1106
01:04:24,559 --> 01:04:26,679
and they all saw him 
with someone else.

1107
01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:31,559
This is Michael Moroz's testimony

1108
01:04:31,639 --> 01:04:35,920
about McVeigh pulling up 
at Johnny's Tire Shop.

1109
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:37,920
There was definitely 
a second person, no matter what.

1110
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,679
He had dark hair, 
maybe a dark complexion.

1111
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,320
He wasn't fair-skinned. 
I'm fair-skinned.

1112
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,639
I can tell the difference 
between fair and dark skin.

1113
01:04:44,719 --> 01:04:48,760
They brought him in. 
He picks McVeigh out of the lineup,

1114
01:04:49,599 --> 01:04:52,639
and he tells them there was 
the man in the ball cap

1115
01:04:52,719 --> 01:04:54,440
in the passenger side of the truck.

1116
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,679
I did get a lot of flak 
from the families and survivors

1117
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,000
when I wanted to find out 
about the others involved.

1118
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:08,159
To try and point the blame 
at somebody else

1119
01:05:08,239 --> 01:05:10,639
besides the people 
who parked the truck out front

1120
01:05:10,719 --> 01:05:12,079
is irresponsible.

1121
01:05:12,159 --> 01:05:15,880
There are unanswered questions 
that we want answers to.

1122
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,400
I know that Melissa and Sharon 
have expressed views

1123
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,920
that they think all the truth 
will come out in the trial.

1124
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:24,199
What do you think 
the truth is in all of this?

1125
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,559
Do you support your parents that there 
are many other people involved?

1126
01:05:27,639 --> 01:05:29,199
Definitely. I believe 
what they're doing

1127
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,239
is the right thing, 
they're gonna find the truth,

1128
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,320
and then when 
they find out the truth

1129
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,159
and everybody knows 
what's been going on,

1130
01:05:36,239 --> 01:05:38,039
then we can put this 
all behind us.

1131
01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:44,079
A federal judge has moved 
the Oklahoma bombing trial to Denver,

1132
01:05:44,159 --> 01:05:46,920
saying the defendants can't get 
a fair trial in Oklahoma.

1133
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,679
The judge said that outweighs 
the wishes of victims' families

1134
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,159
who wanted the trial in Oklahoma, 
making it easier for them to attend.

1135
01:05:54,159 --> 01:05:58,519
What happened April 19th, 1995, 
I don't want anybody to ever forget.

1136
01:05:58,599 --> 01:06:01,400
In the beginning, 
I started drinking,

1137
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,679
and one night walking back 
to the bedroom,

1138
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:07,039
I passed out 
and cracked my head open.

1139
01:06:07,119 --> 01:06:11,800
And I thought at that time I'd better 
find something positive to do

1140
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:13,639
or I'm going to kill myself.

1141
01:06:14,519 --> 01:06:18,599
So I started a group called 
Families and Survivors United.

1142
01:06:19,599 --> 01:06:22,519
The pre-trial hearings started.

1143
01:06:22,599 --> 01:06:26,400
Judge Matsch said, "Okay,
you can be in this courtroom,

1144
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,039
but if you want to give 
an impact statement,

1145
01:06:29,119 --> 01:06:32,960
you better leave, 
because you can't do both."

1146
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:37,320
I said, "Wait a minute. 
I have a right to be in that courtroom."

1147
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,239
On April the 19th, 1995,

1148
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,559
the bomb that shattered 
the Alfred P. Murrah Building

1149
01:06:44,639 --> 01:06:47,880
in Oklahoma City 
also shattered my life.

1150
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,039
The victims' lobby 
in the Oklahoma City bombing

1151
01:06:50,119 --> 01:06:52,920
was so powerful that 
they actually got a law passed.

1152
01:06:54,119 --> 01:06:57,559
It was a miracle. It went through 
the House and Senate

1153
01:06:57,639 --> 01:07:00,000
and was signed by Clinton
in two days.

1154
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:05,280
Prosecutors in 
the Oklahoma City bombing case

1155
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,159
have a valuable new witness, 
Michael Fortier.

1156
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,840
At first, Michael Fortier 
refuses to cooperate.

1157
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:14,000
But he's got 
a wife that's pregnant.

1158
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,960
He makes a deal 
that he will fully cooperate

1159
01:07:18,039 --> 01:07:19,920
as long as Lori 
doesn't go to prison.

1160
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:25,760
Fortier said, "McVeigh told me 
he wanted to bomb the building

1161
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,679
on the anniversary of Waco, 
April 19th,

1162
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,679
and that the bombing would trigger 
a second American Revolution."

1163
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,440
McVeigh confided everything 
in him.

1164
01:07:35,519 --> 01:07:36,599
And to Lori.

1165
01:07:37,679 --> 01:07:40,239
The most memorable moment 
in the trial to me

1166
01:07:40,559 --> 01:07:45,719
was when Lori Fortier talked 
about Timothy McVeigh

1167
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:51,000
getting Campbell's Soup cans 
out of the kitchen cabinet

1168
01:07:51,079 --> 01:07:53,880
and laying out 
how he was going to arrange

1169
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:56,519
the barrels of explosives 
in the truck.

1170
01:07:56,599 --> 01:07:59,039
It was so real. It was so vivid.

1171
01:07:59,119 --> 01:08:02,880
It was the kind of thing 
you couldn't make up if you wanted to.

1172
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,800
I sat with Michael Fortier 
for hundreds of hours.

1173
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,920
I know everybody who was called 
on the Spotlight phone card.

1174
01:08:12,599 --> 01:08:15,639
When you ask me
why I'm so confident

1175
01:08:15,719 --> 01:08:17,159
that we got the right guys

1176
01:08:17,239 --> 01:08:19,680
and that there's no one else 
kind of out there,

1177
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,479
it's because of things 
like Fortier and the phone card.

1178
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,199
This was the government's 
version of the case,

1179
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:30,920
that the Spotlight calling card 
is the sum and substance

1180
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,039
of McVeigh 
and Nichols' contacts,

1181
01:08:33,359 --> 01:08:36,640
and it doesn't disclose 
any co-conspirators.

1182
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:43,039
I've seen 302s. 
302s are a report by the FBI.

1183
01:08:43,119 --> 01:08:45,199
Private citizens have said 
the morning of the bombing

1184
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:48,560
they saw somebody else 
in that truck with McVeigh.

1185
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:50,319
That's very troubling to me.

1186
01:08:50,399 --> 01:08:53,760
And I will tell you why I think 
that never got followed up.

1187
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:58,279
Had they introduced that 
and followed that line of investigation,

1188
01:08:58,359 --> 01:09:00,159
that would have diminished 
his culpability.

1189
01:09:00,239 --> 01:09:01,640
The defense didn't bring it up

1190
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:04,399
because it's one more witness 
that says McVeigh was there.

1191
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:08,800
We didn't call 
any of the eyewitnesses

1192
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:11,680
because their testimony would 
have been damaging to McVeigh.

1193
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:13,800
To call them, we're establishing

1194
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:18,159
that McVeigh was 
in downtown Oklahoma City

1195
01:09:18,239 --> 01:09:21,600
when the government's case 
was largely circumstantial.

1196
01:09:23,239 --> 01:09:25,960
The sister of Oklahoma City 
bombing suspect Timothy McVeigh

1197
01:09:26,039 --> 01:09:29,079
says she's sorry she has 
to cooperate with prosecutors

1198
01:09:29,159 --> 01:09:30,600
in the case against her brother.

1199
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,079
I think he's been unfairly demonized. 
He's just a normal person.

1200
01:09:35,239 --> 01:09:37,319
not this evil thing 
they're painting him to be.

1201
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:40,319
She says FBI agents 
frightened her into cooperating

1202
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:42,800
by threatening her 
with prosecution.

1203
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:48,199
I was responsible for trying to prepare 
Jennifer McVeigh as a witness.

1204
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:50,840
Jennifer McVeigh's testimony,

1205
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,279
I think was dramatic from beginning 
to end because of who she was.

1206
01:09:56,119 --> 01:09:59,159
She said when she heard 
about the bombing,

1207
01:09:59,239 --> 01:10:01,000
she immediately had 
this eerie feeling

1208
01:10:01,079 --> 01:10:05,279
that she knew that her brother 
might have been involved.

1209
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:11,039
We did our best.

1210
01:10:11,119 --> 01:10:13,319
We put all of our energy 
and effort into it,

1211
01:10:13,399 --> 01:10:15,279
and we'll wait 
and see what the jury says.

1212
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:18,800
Giving the court case number

1213
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:22,800
for The United States 
v. Timothy James McVeigh.

1214
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,359
Guilty. 
Guilty on all 11 counts.

1215
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:33,079
It's as though 
Tim wanted us to fail.

1216
01:10:33,159 --> 01:10:35,119
He wanted to say, "I did it."

1217
01:10:35,199 --> 01:10:39,479
But first, he wanted the jury trial 
just in case he got off.

1218
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:43,840
But then when he didn't get off, 
then he wanted the fame,

1219
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,560
or infamy, that he did it.

1220
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:49,960
I went to Tim, and I said,

1221
01:10:50,039 --> 01:10:54,960
"Tim, I need to tell you that I'm not 
the lawyer you need for the appeal.

1222
01:10:55,039 --> 01:10:56,680
I'm going to seek to withdraw."

1223
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,199
I told him that I had figured out

1224
01:11:00,279 --> 01:11:03,560
where he had lied 
and the proof that he had lied.

1225
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,880
And when I finished, he said, 
"How would the truth help me?"

1226
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:14,399
And I mistakenly said,
"I don't know that it would."

1227
01:11:17,039 --> 01:11:19,640
I think people forget 
that a prosecution is not there

1228
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:24,079
to lay out a historical record 
of the entire movement

1229
01:11:24,159 --> 01:11:27,079
or in everything that 
McVeigh ever did in his life.

1230
01:11:27,159 --> 01:11:30,159
That's what history books are for, 
and that's a different goal.

1231
01:11:30,239 --> 01:11:32,359
Here, it was to prove the elements 
of the crime

1232
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,319
and hold him accountable.

1233
01:11:34,399 --> 01:11:36,560
The criminal law 
can only do so much.

1234
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:39,199
And we got everybody

1235
01:11:39,279 --> 01:11:43,439
who was legally, criminally 
responsible for the bombing.

1236
01:11:44,319 --> 01:11:46,920
There could have been 
other people who were...

1237
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:50,359
If we had the evidence, 
could've been criminally culpable.

1238
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:52,479
But then there's 
a whole universe of people

1239
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:54,279
who were not criminally culpable,

1240
01:11:54,359 --> 01:11:57,760
but who bear some measure 
of moral responsibility.

1241
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:03,199
Tim McVeigh was part of the group 
that wanted to declare war on America.

1242
01:12:04,079 --> 01:12:07,039
The government thought, 
"We tried to round them all up once

1243
01:12:07,119 --> 01:12:10,640
with this sedition trial in '88, 
and we blew it.

1244
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,920
We can't do that again. 
We have to limit this."

1245
01:12:15,239 --> 01:12:17,399
And the American people 
are none the wiser

1246
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:22,760
about how ugly and how serious 
some Americans are

1247
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,319
about destroying this nation.

1248
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:33,279
We always believed that there had 
to be more people involved.

1249
01:12:35,159 --> 01:12:37,119
We started talking 
to militia groups,

1250
01:12:37,199 --> 01:12:39,760
people who may have 
supported them.

1251
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,960
These extreme beliefs just 
weren't held by a few people.

1252
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:45,640
Actually, there were 
a lot of people out there

1253
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,000
who felt the way McVeigh did.

1254
01:12:50,359 --> 01:12:53,720
So we would go to places 
like Elohim City

1255
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:55,520
in far eastern Oklahoma,

1256
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:57,920
where we believed 
that McVeigh had passed through.

1257
01:13:00,399 --> 01:13:02,880
They were following
Christian identity.

1258
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:06,720
Their belief was anything 
that wasn't white was subhuman.

1259
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,199
If you just want to boil down to it, 
that's what it was.

1260
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,479
Elohim City is key 
to a lot of things here.

1261
01:13:16,199 --> 01:13:18,520
I think McVeigh 
definitely was at Elohim City.

1262
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,079
ATF had an informant 
that put him there, Carol Howe.

1263
01:13:22,319 --> 01:13:25,880
NBC has learned that the community 
was penetrated by this woman,

1264
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:28,520
Carol Howe, 
a paid government informant,

1265
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:30,680
who was gathering information 
on possible threats

1266
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:32,199
against the U.S. government.

1267
01:13:32,279 --> 01:13:34,119
The government acknowledges 
in federal documents

1268
01:13:34,199 --> 01:13:36,000
that she was their informant.

1269
01:13:36,079 --> 01:13:38,239
Carol Howe was 
an Oklahoma aristocrat.

1270
01:13:38,319 --> 01:13:42,279
Her father was the CEO of 
a Fortune 500 company in Tulsa.

1271
01:13:42,359 --> 01:13:46,199
But when she was just into her 20s, 
she got caught up

1272
01:13:46,279 --> 01:13:49,079
with some really crazy 
right-wing folks.

1273
01:13:50,159 --> 01:13:53,840
At the same time, 
she became an informant

1274
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:56,199
for the Bureau of Alcohol, 
Tobacco, and Firearms.

1275
01:13:57,319 --> 01:13:59,680
We started following 
the trail of neo-Nazis,

1276
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:03,920
and she had a neo-Nazi boyfriend, 
a guy named Dennis Mahon.

1277
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:05,119
The faster this country falls,

1278
01:14:05,199 --> 01:14:07,760
the faster we'll be able 
to rebuild a nation for ourself.

1279
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:10,520
Remarkably, Howe and Mahon 
appeared together

1280
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:13,479
in a 1994 
German television interview.

1281
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:16,000
Howe gave the government 
information before the bombing

1282
01:14:16,079 --> 01:14:18,000
on alleged threats 
by others in Elohim City,

1283
01:14:18,319 --> 01:14:20,560
including this man, 
Andreas Strassmeir.

1284
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:21,880
According to federal documents,

1285
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,079
Strassmeir was 
the military training officer

1286
01:14:24,159 --> 01:14:25,840
for Mahon's organization.

1287
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:27,720
Strassmeir was last seen 
in Germany.

1288
01:14:30,119 --> 01:14:33,359
This is one of Carol Howe's
reports to her ATF handler.

1289
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:37,039
She's talking about Andreas Strassmeir 
at Elohim City.

1290
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,199
"Andy leads the young adults 
in guerrilla warfare

1291
01:14:41,279 --> 01:14:42,640
and tactical maneuvers.

1292
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:46,359
His 'plans,' quote,

1293
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:50,520
are to forcibly act to destroy 
the U.S. government

1294
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,439
with direct actions and operations,

1295
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:57,640
assassinations, bombings, 
mass shootings, et cetera.

1296
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,880
He believes 
we cannot out-breed the enemy,

1297
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,880
so we must use 
mass genocide against them.

1298
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,039
And of course the biggest enemy, 
the U.S. government."

1299
01:15:10,159 --> 01:15:13,720
She reported that there was
an increasing discussion of violence

1300
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,720
and there was a discussion 
about blowing up a building,

1301
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:20,199
even to the point 
that they made a visit

1302
01:15:20,279 --> 01:15:21,960
to Oklahoma City 
and drove around.

1303
01:15:22,039 --> 01:15:25,560
There wouldn't have probably been 
an Oklahoma City bombing

1304
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:28,439
had Elohim City been 
investigated more diligently.

1305
01:15:29,399 --> 01:15:31,479
Carol Howe knew 
what was happening

1306
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:33,680
and she told them 
she had seen a guy.

1307
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:35,399
They identified him 
as Tim Tuttle.

1308
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:38,359
At the time, she wouldn't have known 
anything about who this guy was.

1309
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,359
But after the bombing,

1310
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:43,439
she knew it was Tim McVeigh. 
She had seen his pictures.

1311
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:46,359
Tim was walking through camp 
with Andreas Strassmeir,

1312
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:49,920
just some guy named Tim Tuttle 
walking with Andy the German.

1313
01:15:51,199 --> 01:15:54,079
Andy Strassmeir 
was an important person

1314
01:15:54,159 --> 01:15:56,520
that I thought 
needed to be interviewed.

1315
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,159
I was able to meet 
with Strassmeir.

1316
01:16:00,239 --> 01:16:02,720
And I asked 
a simple question. I said,

1317
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:08,159
"Why is it that there are 302s, 
FBI 302s, interviews,

1318
01:16:08,239 --> 01:16:12,039
with all of these different 
radical people,

1319
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:15,159
but they don't have you?"

1320
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:18,720
As I expected, you know,
he knew nothing.

1321
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:22,319
He might have met Tim 
at a gun show. Couldn't remember.

1322
01:16:25,399 --> 01:16:29,000
I forgot about this person 
when I walked out of the show in Tulsa.

1323
01:16:29,079 --> 01:16:32,520
You know, because it's just one 
of many people I met there.

1324
01:16:33,199 --> 01:16:35,840
But it's possible 
that he remembered me

1325
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:39,600
and that he had a card 
from our church.

1326
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:41,520
One of the things 
that really concerned me

1327
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:44,399
was when I got a hold 
of McVeigh's phone records.

1328
01:16:45,199 --> 01:16:47,239
He called Elohim City

1329
01:16:47,319 --> 01:16:50,199
two minutes after calling 
the Ryder Truck company,

1330
01:16:50,279 --> 01:16:53,920
and he asked to speak
to Andreas Strassmeir.

1331
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,800
I heard he made 
a lot of phone calls.

1332
01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:59,840
And was telling people that 
something is going to happen.

1333
01:16:59,920 --> 01:17:02,600
The FBI interviewed 
thousands of people

1334
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:04,039
regarding Timothy McVeigh,

1335
01:17:04,119 --> 01:17:07,199
including his second-grade 
schoolteacher.

1336
01:17:09,319 --> 01:17:13,039
But they didn't think it was important 
to talk to Andreas Strassmeir.

1337
01:17:14,199 --> 01:17:17,079
He wound up leaving the country 
and went back to Germany.

1338
01:17:17,159 --> 01:17:18,640
It was like 
more than a year later

1339
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:21,279
that the FBI called and did 
a telephone interview with him.

1340
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:25,239
Strassmeir,
there's controversy about him.

1341
01:17:25,319 --> 01:17:27,880
Some people think 
he's a source of the Israelis,

1342
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:30,520
and some people think he's a source 
of the West German government.

1343
01:17:31,319 --> 01:17:34,840
At the time, the German government 
was very unhappy with the FBI.

1344
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:39,199
Because we have guidelines on how 
we investigate domestic terrorism.

1345
01:17:39,279 --> 01:17:40,479
They're pretty limiting.

1346
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:43,079
And so they wanted to try 
to get their own information.

1347
01:17:43,159 --> 01:17:44,640
Somebody should have 
looked at it.

1348
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:46,560
I personally was responsible

1349
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:50,600
for searching the intelligence files 
here in the United States,

1350
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,439
and there's no evidence 
there was foreign involvement.

1351
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:55,039
McVeigh had met him 
at a gun show

1352
01:17:55,119 --> 01:17:58,159
and called him, you know, 
two weeks

1353
01:17:58,239 --> 01:18:00,960
before he engaged 
in the bombing.

1354
01:18:01,039 --> 01:18:02,720
That doesn't show 
there's any connection.

1355
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:04,520
He met lots of people 
at gun shows.

1356
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:07,760
There was certainly evidence

1357
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:11,199
that Tim McVeigh had probably 
been at Elohim City.

1358
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:14,119
He kept denying 
that he had been there,

1359
01:18:14,199 --> 01:18:18,319
but yet, he was stopped, I believe, 
by an Arkansas highway patrolman

1360
01:18:18,399 --> 01:18:21,039
on a road that led 
to Elohim City.

1361
01:18:21,119 --> 01:18:23,319
There were people that said 
he had been there.

1362
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:26,880
I told him, I said, 
"Tim, you know and I know...

1363
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,239
that you were used." 
He didn't say anything.

1364
01:18:30,319 --> 01:18:32,399
He didn't say, 
"No, that didn't happen."

1365
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:34,479
The way that group 
was always together,

1366
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:36,680
there's just no way 
he was not there.

1367
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:42,880
Strassmeir was there, 
Ellison was there,

1368
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:45,359
Snell was buried there 
in Elohim City.

1369
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,199
On the day Snell was executed,

1370
01:18:49,279 --> 01:18:52,560
he asked for the TV 
to be turned on in his cell,

1371
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:54,479
and the prison watch log 
notes that,

1372
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:57,319
"Inmate Snell smiled
and chuckled

1373
01:18:57,399 --> 01:19:00,079
as he watched the coverage 
of the Oklahoma City bombing."

1374
01:19:00,159 --> 01:19:03,840
It's just hard for me to believe 
that it was all coincidence.

1375
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:06,279
It's not a coincidence.

1376
01:19:06,359 --> 01:19:08,279
Remember, the idea of blowing up 
the Murrah Building

1377
01:19:08,359 --> 01:19:11,560
was hatched ten years earlier 
among members

1378
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:14,279
of the Covenant, Sword, 
and Arm of the Lord.

1379
01:19:14,359 --> 01:19:17,399
This was a plan 
that not just McVeigh

1380
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:19,880
but others 
who were at Elohim City

1381
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:22,199
decided to resurrect 
from the ashes.

1382
01:19:23,079 --> 01:19:27,199
I came to understand 
Elohim City was the training ground.

1383
01:19:27,279 --> 01:19:29,479
The Covenant, the Sword, 
and the Arm of the Lord

1384
01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:33,159
had moved its operations 
to the Cookson Hills of Oklahoma.

1385
01:19:33,239 --> 01:19:36,399
And that's where they were 
gonna train these people

1386
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:40,159
to overthrow the government. 
These guys were ready for war.

1387
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:48,399
In court, McVeigh watched intently 
as the jury filed in.

1388
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:51,039
Judge Richard Matsch 
asked for their decision.

1389
01:19:51,119 --> 01:19:53,560
"The jury recommends 
the following," said the judge.

1390
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:56,399
"That Timothy James McVeigh 
be sentenced to death."

1391
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,359
I went to the bomb site 
every day after the bombing,

1392
01:20:01,439 --> 01:20:04,520
asking myself, 
"What can I do to feel better?"

1393
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:07,560
And I finally came 
to the conclusion

1394
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:10,159
that the day we would take 
Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols

1395
01:20:10,239 --> 01:20:11,680
from their cage to kill them

1396
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:14,880
was simply not going to be 
part of my healing process.

1397
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:20,319
My husband was dying 
during McVeigh's trial.

1398
01:20:21,239 --> 01:20:23,560
The babies are dead, 
and then Glenn died.

1399
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:26,520
The trials came and went.

1400
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:28,560
There's a lot 
of unanswered questions.

1401
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:34,960
I believe I owed it to them 
to continue that journey

1402
01:20:35,039 --> 01:20:37,760
to try to get answers 
to these questions.

1403
01:20:39,119 --> 01:20:41,119
Over the years,
it's been a balancing act,

1404
01:20:41,199 --> 01:20:45,199
almost like a tightrope act 
for me,

1405
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,840
to not get lumped in 
with the crazies.

1406
01:20:49,199 --> 01:20:53,359
I needed to just find my truth, 
not invent it.

1407
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:58,039
I learned about these groups 
around the country.

1408
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:02,800
They thrive on hate.

1409
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:04,600
And I think it's like a cancer.

1410
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:10,039
I went to the Aryan Nation compound 
in Hayden Lake, Idaho.

1411
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:13,520
I'd heard that Timothy McVeigh 
had been through there,

1412
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:16,600
and that's how they helped 
shape his hateful ideals.

1413
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:22,840
And I said, "I'm here 
to see Pastor Richard Butler."

1414
01:21:24,319 --> 01:21:26,600
For me, he's the head of the snake.

1415
01:21:28,359 --> 01:21:31,199
But I've got a desperation 
to know the truth,

1416
01:21:32,359 --> 01:21:35,039
and I'm willing to dance 
with the devil to get it.

1417
01:21:36,119 --> 01:21:39,600
We're talking about creating 
a national state for the white Aryan.

1418
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:42,159
He begins his sermon, 
and he looks at me, and he says,

1419
01:21:42,239 --> 01:21:45,680
"One man's terrorist is 
another man's freedom fighter,"

1420
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:47,920
and that Timothy McVeigh 
was a great man

1421
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:49,439
and a martyr for the cause.

1422
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:51,520
And he actually teared up 
when he said,

1423
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:55,319
"I am so sorry about 
your little Aryan grandsons."

1424
01:21:55,399 --> 01:21:57,640
He said, "I cried
when I saw them on TV."

1425
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:03,960
Since the tragedy here 
in Oklahoma City,

1426
01:22:04,039 --> 01:22:08,279
some of those who lost loved ones 
have found a new purpose in life.

1427
01:22:09,680 --> 01:22:11,800
Bud Welch, Kathy Wilburn, 
good morning.

1428
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:13,920
- So nice to see you both. 
- Good morning.

1429
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:16,439
I know that both of you 
call Bill McVeigh,

1430
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:19,800
Timothy McVeigh's father, 
the forgotten victim.

1431
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,479
If I put myself in his shoes, 
and I wonder how it must feel to,

1432
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:25,880
you know, to wait 
to have your child executed,

1433
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:27,640
it's got to be terrifying.

1434
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:29,600
We have to recognize 
what an execution is.

1435
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:31,920
An execution is an event. 
It's staged.

1436
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,159
We know what time 
the killing's going to happen.

1437
01:22:34,239 --> 01:22:36,479
It's nothing more 
than a staged political event.

1438
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:39,399
It does nothing more or less 
for society than that.

1439
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:43,720
Tim McVeigh's father 
was on the news.

1440
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:48,399
I could see this man, 
a broken man,

1441
01:22:49,439 --> 01:22:51,159
with grief in his eyes.

1442
01:22:52,039 --> 01:22:53,560
And my thought was,

1443
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:57,439
"I want to go tell that man 
that I care how he feels,

1444
01:22:58,239 --> 01:23:01,199
and I don't blame him 
for what his son had done."

1445
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:07,520
When Bill opened the door, 
and he introduced me to Jennifer,

1446
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:12,720
and there's a picture 
kind of behind me of Tim.

1447
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:15,960
I looked at Bill 
out of the corner of my eye,

1448
01:23:16,039 --> 01:23:18,760
and I could see at that moment

1449
01:23:20,399 --> 01:23:23,319
a love that this father had 
for this son.

1450
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:28,079
And Jennifer just kind of 
went to sobbing.

1451
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:32,319
And I held her face in my hands, 
and I said, "Honey,

1452
01:23:33,399 --> 01:23:35,000
I'll do everything I can

1453
01:23:36,399 --> 01:23:39,399
to keep your brother 
from being killed."

1454
01:23:40,399 --> 01:23:43,000
All of a sudden, it felt 
like this tremendous weight

1455
01:23:43,079 --> 01:23:45,279
had been removed 
from my shoulders,

1456
01:23:45,359 --> 01:23:48,439
and I never felt closer to God 
than I did at that moment.

1457
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:53,720
Because what I recognized 
that Saturday morning was...

1458
01:23:56,479 --> 01:23:59,640
the day that our parents die,

1459
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:02,000
we go to the hilltop, 
and we bury them.

1460
01:24:03,119 --> 01:24:06,880
The day our children die, 
we bury them in our heart,

1461
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:09,279
and that never goes away.

1462
01:24:16,079 --> 01:24:19,640
Terry Nichols entered the courthouse 
on the first day of his trial.

1463
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:21,439
He will face a crowd of people.

1464
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:24,560
Twelve of those could 
ultimately decide if he dies.

1465
01:24:26,319 --> 01:24:30,840
If I had the opportunity 
to sit down with Terry Nichols,

1466
01:24:31,359 --> 01:24:34,720
I would press 
on who else was involved.

1467
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:36,000
Where did the money come from?

1468
01:24:37,199 --> 01:24:39,359
Yes! Much to plunder.

1469
01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:44,199
- You boys had a good mission. 
- Nest egg!

1470
01:24:44,279 --> 01:24:47,560
Did the funding for the Oklahoma City 
bombing come from those robberies

1471
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:49,640
that were done 
by radical groups?

1472
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:53,680
The accused Midwestern Bank 
Bandits are white supremacists

1473
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:57,159
who allegedly robbed 
22 banks in seven states.

1474
01:24:57,239 --> 01:25:01,920
The take, $250,000. 
Law enforcement officials believe

1475
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:04,479
the money was distributed to 
other white supremacist groups.

1476
01:25:05,399 --> 01:25:08,479
Members of the gang were frequent 
visitors to Elohim City.

1477
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:12,960
Tim had no visible means of support.

1478
01:25:14,159 --> 01:25:16,720
You gotta feed yourself, 
you gotta keep the car going,

1479
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:20,079
you gotta have money to be able 
to spend the night someplace.

1480
01:25:20,159 --> 01:25:23,640
He was always renting a room. 
Where'd the money come from?

1481
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:29,000
And then I read his sister said 
that he told her in this letter

1482
01:25:29,079 --> 01:25:31,439
that he got some money 
out of robbing banks.

1483
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:33,039
And there were other robberies.

1484
01:25:33,119 --> 01:25:35,640
He also robbed a gun dealer 
named Roger Moore.

1485
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,600
About six months before 
the Oklahoma City bombing,

1486
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:41,640
a masked gunman allegedly 
robbed gun dealer Roger Moore

1487
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:44,520
of gold bullion, coins, 
and weapons.

1488
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:46,680
McVeigh met 
this fellow, Roger Moore,

1489
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:47,880
at one of the gun shows,

1490
01:25:48,319 --> 01:25:51,560
and they become 
something of business partners.

1491
01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:55,319
He and Roger Moore 
ultimately had a falling out,

1492
01:25:55,399 --> 01:25:59,000
and McVeigh is the mastermind 
behind a robbery

1493
01:25:59,079 --> 01:26:00,399
at Roger Moore's house.

1494
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:03,680
And Terry Nichols 
committed the robbery.

1495
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:05,600
Roger Moore 
was called as a witness

1496
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:08,159
because Terry Nichols 
and Timothy McVeigh

1497
01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:10,079
stole weapons from him,

1498
01:26:10,159 --> 01:26:14,159
and they were used in part 
to fund the bombing.

1499
01:26:16,159 --> 01:26:19,800
At Terry Nichols' trial, he was not like 
Timothy McVeigh at all.

1500
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:21,840
He didn't make eye contact 
with anyone.

1501
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:23,600
He was always looking down.

1502
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:26,960
When the judge had a recess,

1503
01:26:27,039 --> 01:26:29,399
I saw this little lady 
standing out in the hall.

1504
01:26:30,359 --> 01:26:32,920
I realized it was 
Terry Nichols' mother.

1505
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:35,640
I walked up to her. 
I said, "I'm Kathy Wilburn."

1506
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:37,960
She begins to cry and said, 
"I know who you are.

1507
01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:41,279
I've seen you on TV."

1508
01:26:41,359 --> 01:26:42,920
And I put my arms around her, 
and I said,

1509
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:46,399
"Well, I want you to know 
how sorry I am for your family."

1510
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:50,000
And then we went back in the courtroom 
and I just sat down with her.

1511
01:26:50,079 --> 01:26:52,560
It was like Terry Nichols, 
the bomber,

1512
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:54,840
became my friend Joyce's son.

1513
01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:00,640
The jury thought he was guilty, 
but they didn't know how guilty.

1514
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:02,520
They had questions just like I did.

1515
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:05,119
The jury found Nichols guilty

1516
01:27:05,199 --> 01:27:08,680
of only conspiracy 
and involuntary manslaughter.

1517
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:12,319
Nichols won't get the death penalty 
for his federal conspiracy conviction.

1518
01:27:13,119 --> 01:27:15,159
There are other people 
out there,

1519
01:27:15,239 --> 01:27:18,239
and decisions 
were probably made very early on

1520
01:27:18,319 --> 01:27:21,720
that Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols 
were who they were looking for,

1521
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:25,279
and the same sort of resources 
were not used

1522
01:27:25,359 --> 01:27:27,479
to try to find out 
who else might be involved.

1523
01:27:29,399 --> 01:27:32,439
A few days after the trial, 
I had a letter.

1524
01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:35,159
Return address was Terry Nichols.

1525
01:27:35,239 --> 01:27:40,399
And I thought, "Mm, you know, 
I'm not looking for a pen pal.

1526
01:27:41,239 --> 01:27:44,000
And if I was, it wouldn't be 
the Oklahoma City bomber."

1527
01:27:44,079 --> 01:27:46,800
And then it kind of like 
dawned on me,

1528
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:49,720
"Well, who's going to know 
more about the bombing

1529
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:50,960
than the bomber himself?"

1530
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:54,680
We started writing
back and forth.

1531
01:27:56,159 --> 01:27:59,199
The Terry Nichols relationship, 
I still don't really understand it.

1532
01:27:59,279 --> 01:28:00,359
I frequently tell my mom,

1533
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:02,439
and when we do presentations 
around the United States,

1534
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:06,479
that if I ever saw Terry Nichols 
and we were in a room together,

1535
01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:07,920
I'd be the only one that comes out.

1536
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:12,279
I have forgiven, yes.

1537
01:28:12,359 --> 01:28:15,319
Do I think people 
should be punished? Yes.

1538
01:28:15,399 --> 01:28:18,479
Forgiveness and punishment 
are two different things.

1539
01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:22,079
I want everybody involved 
in this to be accountable.

1540
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:25,600
You know, forgiveness 
is a choice you make.

1541
01:28:26,399 --> 01:28:27,840
You can forgive

1542
01:28:29,159 --> 01:28:30,560
or you can stay bitter.

1543
01:28:31,399 --> 01:28:35,920
And forgiving Terry Nichols was one 
of the best choices I ever made.

1544
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:37,279
It changed my life.

1545
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:42,960
Terry Nichols was remorseful, 
unlike McVeigh.

1546
01:28:43,039 --> 01:28:46,279
And he told me, "Whenever 
I'm not under the threat

1547
01:28:46,359 --> 01:28:49,720
of the death penalty anymore, 
I'm gonna tell you everything."

1548
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:51,119
And he has tried.

1549
01:28:54,199 --> 01:28:57,119
I'd like to read you 
part of this letter

1550
01:28:57,199 --> 01:28:59,159
that Terry Nichols sent me.

1551
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:03,119
"So to put everything 
in a nutshell, Kathy,

1552
01:29:03,199 --> 01:29:06,720
Timothy McVeigh was 
the manipulated foot soldier,

1553
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:08,279
Roger Moore the middleman

1554
01:29:08,359 --> 01:29:10,640
who supplied Tim 
with encouragement,

1555
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,600
instructions, and some explosives.

1556
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:18,359
And the top dog, the director 
who orchestrated it all,

1557
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:22,520
is a rogue FBI agent 
with the help of others

1558
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:24,439
who I will not name 
at this time."

1559
01:29:27,279 --> 01:29:30,000
I don't know if what he wrote 
was true or not,

1560
01:29:30,079 --> 01:29:32,680
but after that letter, 
he was notified by the warden

1561
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:35,079
that I was to be taken off 
of his calling list.

1562
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:39,239
We've been stopped.

1563
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:45,479
Here's how it works.

1564
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:48,039
Timothy McVeigh lives 
in a special confinement unit.

1565
01:29:48,119 --> 01:29:50,840
That is the building there 
with the green roof.

1566
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:54,840
He will be transported by van 
to the execution house.

1567
01:29:58,279 --> 01:30:00,199
He told us that,

1568
01:30:00,279 --> 01:30:02,800
"When the federal government 
puts me to death,

1569
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:07,399
I'm still gonna be the winner, 
because it's 168 for Tim McVeigh

1570
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:09,000
and one for the government."

1571
01:30:15,039 --> 01:30:19,159
You have these three tubes 
that are coming out of a wall

1572
01:30:19,239 --> 01:30:22,520
with the three chemicals, 
poison, to kill him.

1573
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:28,159
The executioner 
was given the order,

1574
01:30:28,239 --> 01:30:31,159
and all of a sudden, 
these tubes started swaying

1575
01:30:31,239 --> 01:30:32,920
in, like, this ghostly way.

1576
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:37,600
And meanwhile, McVeigh is 
looking straight up at a camera

1577
01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:41,439
that is giving a live feed 
to an auditorium

1578
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:44,760
where other victims, 
and family members,

1579
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:47,039
survivors are watching.

1580
01:30:50,279 --> 01:30:53,479
He glares 
this "go to hell" look at us.

1581
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:55,079
They push the button,

1582
01:30:56,119 --> 01:30:57,199
and he went...

1583
01:30:58,079 --> 01:30:59,039
He was gone.

1584
01:31:03,159 --> 01:31:04,840
He died with his eyes open.

1585
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:13,760
I wondered 
what would've happened

1586
01:31:13,840 --> 01:31:16,880
if I'd known Timothy McVeigh 
when he was a boy.

1587
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:20,119
I wonder if I would have gone 
out of my way to befriend him.

1588
01:31:20,199 --> 01:31:24,359
I wonder if... 
I wonder about all that.

1589
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:28,560
McVeigh was a tragic example 
of a guy who thought

1590
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:31,560
our differences were more important 
than what we have in common.

1591
01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:35,640
Were there objective reasons 
that he felt the way he did,

1592
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:39,319
both personal and psychological? 
Absolutely.

1593
01:31:39,399 --> 01:31:41,600
And political and economic? Yes.

1594
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:43,239
But we can't blow the house up.

1595
01:31:45,520 --> 01:31:48,840
It doesn't matter whether he was right 
about anything or not.

1596
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:52,600
What matters is he decided 
he should kill people he didn't know,

1597
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:54,000
including little kids.

1598
01:31:55,079 --> 01:31:57,600
But the words he used, 
the arguments he made

1599
01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:02,000
literally sound like 
the mainstream today.

1600
01:32:02,079 --> 01:32:03,000
Like he won.

1601
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:25,800
Tim McVeigh set out 
to destroy the government.

1602
01:32:26,680 --> 01:32:28,039
He destroyed my family.

1603
01:32:29,039 --> 01:32:32,199
My brothers passed away 
in the Oklahoma City bombing,

1604
01:32:32,279 --> 01:32:33,600
and we go there to remember.

1605
01:32:35,039 --> 01:32:38,239
The risk of terrorism, it's always 
kind of in the back of your head.

1606
01:32:40,199 --> 01:32:43,119
I think there will be civil war 
in our country.

1607
01:32:44,359 --> 01:32:45,439
It's frightening.

1608
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:48,840
But there are lessons 
to be learned

1609
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:51,159
from what happened here 
in Oklahoma City.

1610
01:32:52,119 --> 01:32:55,600
The reason 
we come back here every year

1611
01:32:55,680 --> 01:32:59,680
is that this wasn't a one-off thing. 
It can really happen again.

1612
01:33:01,199 --> 01:33:04,039
Where we're standing now was 
the Alfred P. Murrah Building.

1613
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:08,479
The empty chairs 
represent the 168 victims.

1614
01:33:09,159 --> 01:33:11,960
The gate behind me says "9:01,"

1615
01:33:12,039 --> 01:33:15,640
the moment of innocence 
before the bombing.

1616
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:19,000
The gate over your shoulder 
says "9:03,"

1617
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:22,039
the aftermath. Today.

1618
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:28,159
This year we're living in 
is not much different from 1995.

1619
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:31,640
People yelling at each other,

1620
01:33:31,720 --> 01:33:34,880
not making arguments 
based on fact, but emotion.

1621
01:33:36,359 --> 01:33:38,119
Many folks feel left behind.

1622
01:33:38,199 --> 01:33:40,560
Like their American dream 
has been stolen.

1623
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:45,159
No sale! No sale!

1624
01:33:45,239 --> 01:33:46,479
No sale! No sale!

1625
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:48,760
That rage doesn't disappear.

1626
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:51,880
It can explode on the fringes,

1627
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:55,760
as we've seen too many times 
since April 19th, 1995.

1628
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:02,000
The Oklahoma City bombing 
was a crossroads.

1629
01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:06,000
It was a huge signpost 
in history.

1630
01:34:06,079 --> 01:34:07,680
"America, wake up."

1631
01:34:08,399 --> 01:34:11,560
But I think 
that sign got blown down.

1632
01:34:11,640 --> 01:34:13,000
...in a mass shooting.

1633
01:34:13,079 --> 01:34:15,119
...180-page manifesto.

1634
01:34:15,199 --> 01:34:17,359
He didn't come to worship. 
He came to kill.

1635
01:34:17,439 --> 01:34:19,680
Tree of Life Synagogue 
has never been the same.

1636
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:22,119
Every time I hear a news report 
on mass shootings,

1637
01:34:22,479 --> 01:34:26,279
and domestic terrorism, 
right-wing extremism,

1638
01:34:26,359 --> 01:34:29,680
it always reminds me 
of when I was in the movement,

1639
01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:32,279
how dangerously close 
we as a group got,

1640
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:37,000
how dangerously close I got 
to committing domestic terrorism.

1641
01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:42,920
So much has changed 
from our days back in the '80s.

1642
01:34:43,720 --> 01:34:47,079
How mainstream 
extremism has become,

1643
01:34:48,119 --> 01:34:49,720
that was something we hoped for.

1644
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:53,199
I'm seeing that now, 
and honestly, it scares me.

1645
01:34:54,760 --> 01:34:58,119
The closest thing that has happened
since Oklahoma City, of course,

1646
01:34:58,199 --> 01:35:01,359
is the January 6th riot 
on the Capitol Building.

1647
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:06,880
On January 6th,

1648
01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:09,680
I was the emergency planning 
specialist

1649
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:11,840
with the incident commander 
and everybody else who showed up.

1650
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:13,760
So I was at that scene 
for about 18 hours.

1651
01:35:15,359 --> 01:35:19,239
When I saw the storming 
of the Capitol on January 6th,

1652
01:35:19,319 --> 01:35:21,520
I'm thinking, 
"What's the chances

1653
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:23,640
that my boy's gonna be 
down at the bombing

1654
01:35:23,720 --> 01:35:25,880
and gonna be involved 
in this as well?"

1655
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:28,560
And I was concerned 
for his safety.

1656
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:33,359
There's no call for
what they did on January 6th.

1657
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:36,319
What they did was wrong, 
and they should be prosecuted for it.

1658
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:40,000
Every single day, 
we have protests.

1659
01:35:41,359 --> 01:35:43,600
The majority of the people 
up there are peaceful.

1660
01:35:45,199 --> 01:35:47,960
But as long as our country 
continues to divide itself,

1661
01:35:48,039 --> 01:35:49,680
I believe there's more to come.

1662
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:54,279
You poke a dog long enough, 
the dog's gonna bite.

1663
01:35:54,359 --> 01:35:56,720
If you're gonna push people 
to the extremes,

1664
01:35:57,760 --> 01:35:59,159
violence is inevitable.

1665
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:11,279
I drove up to 
this building a hundred times.

1666
01:36:11,359 --> 01:36:16,439
We used to go on our break 
up there over that wall.

1667
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:19,880
We would stay... 
We'd take treats and stuff

1668
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:22,680
and go up there and watch 
the kids play in the playground.

1669
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:26,880
That's where I found Colton. 
You know that, right? Right there.

1670
01:36:31,640 --> 01:36:35,720
When I delved into the bombing 
and started having questions,

1671
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:37,560
I told a reporter, I said,

1672
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:41,279
"You know, it's not going to be 
too many years

1673
01:36:41,359 --> 01:36:43,520
that when I tell someone 
I lost my grandchildren

1674
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:45,439
in the bombing, 
they'll say, 'Which one?'"

1675
01:36:45,520 --> 01:36:47,640
- Exactly. 
- And that's where we are today.

1676
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:55,319
It's still hard to believe 
it's been 28 years.

1677
01:36:56,840 --> 01:36:57,760
Yeah.

1678
01:36:59,239 --> 01:37:02,079
Love you guys. 
We'll see you next year. You ready?

1679
01:37:03,279 --> 01:37:04,960
Yeah. Bye, guys.