1 00:00:55,681 --> 00:00:58,101 Hey, Tom. How are you? Hey, how are you? 2 00:00:58,183 --> 00:00:59,483 Come on in. Hello. 3 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:00,560 Good to see you. 4 00:01:06,191 --> 00:01:10,701 Being Jane Doe, for me, that was paramount. 5 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,030 I didn't want anyone to know who I was, I didn't want anybody to know my family. 6 00:01:15,742 --> 00:01:21,872 For quite some time, I trusted that I had some privacy with that. 7 00:01:22,207 --> 00:01:24,627 Because I was always afraid of what people were gonna say 8 00:01:24,710 --> 00:01:26,420 and think about what I had said. 9 00:01:27,754 --> 00:01:32,054 What's your view of what most likely happened to her? 10 00:01:34,303 --> 00:01:39,023 I believe that Cathy Cesnik was murdered... 11 00:01:39,516 --> 00:01:41,806 by someone she knew. 12 00:01:41,893 --> 00:01:46,903 I believe that it wasn't a stranger who killed Cathy Cesnik. 13 00:01:47,691 --> 00:01:51,951 It may have been a stranger to her who moved her body, 14 00:01:52,029 --> 00:01:56,529 or a stranger to her who cleaned up after, 15 00:01:56,783 --> 00:02:01,463 but I don't believe that it was a stranger who killed Cathy Cesnik. 16 00:02:01,538 --> 00:02:04,828 Cathy Cesnik was killed because she was going to talk 17 00:02:05,125 --> 00:02:07,245 about what went on at that school, 18 00:02:07,502 --> 00:02:10,842 and I believe that there were more than one person 19 00:02:10,922 --> 00:02:14,932 who was really afraid that she was going to, um, out them. 20 00:02:16,219 --> 00:02:20,889 And they used her death to keep me quiet. 21 00:03:46,685 --> 00:03:49,935 Baltimore has always been a quintessentially Catholic city. 22 00:03:52,482 --> 00:03:54,742 Baltimore is the home of Roman Catholicism. 23 00:03:55,819 --> 00:03:58,819 John Carroll founded the first archdiocese here, 24 00:03:58,905 --> 00:04:00,905 maybe the late 1700s. 25 00:04:03,577 --> 00:04:06,457 Baltimore is a city of firsts. 26 00:04:07,664 --> 00:04:09,004 The first telegraph... 27 00:04:11,001 --> 00:04:13,171 the first streetlights... 28 00:04:14,129 --> 00:04:15,169 the trains. 29 00:04:17,632 --> 00:04:21,642 And it is the first diocese in the United States. 30 00:04:22,179 --> 00:04:26,809 Every neighborhood had its own parish. Everybody went to church. 31 00:04:26,892 --> 00:04:28,602 I mean, rosary, 32 00:04:29,144 --> 00:04:31,484 May processions were a big thing, 33 00:04:31,897 --> 00:04:33,107 First Communions. 34 00:04:33,690 --> 00:04:36,490 All the Sacraments were a really big deal. 35 00:04:37,819 --> 00:04:42,739 You were not only going to school with people that were Catholic, 36 00:04:42,824 --> 00:04:46,334 going to church with people Catholic, you were living in Catholic communities. 37 00:04:48,330 --> 00:04:51,500 But Baltimore has always been a working-class city. 38 00:04:53,752 --> 00:04:56,712 In 1969, when Sister Cathy dies, 39 00:04:57,214 --> 00:05:02,394 we lived in a much more basic, simplistic, primitive society. 40 00:05:04,262 --> 00:05:08,522 This is a world of blue-collar folks, they're working in these factory jobs. 41 00:05:09,768 --> 00:05:12,148 They are living in little row houses, 42 00:05:12,229 --> 00:05:14,859 they are tending little postage-stamp lawns. 43 00:05:15,565 --> 00:05:17,435 They are living for that glorious moment 44 00:05:17,526 --> 00:05:22,196 when their little daughter puts on a veil and goes for her First Communion. 45 00:05:26,326 --> 00:05:28,786 I was one of ten siblings. 46 00:05:29,162 --> 00:05:34,042 There were three boys... me, then three boys, 47 00:05:34,501 --> 00:05:36,551 then there were two girls and a boy. 48 00:05:37,671 --> 00:05:41,131 It was a good Catholic family. Eleven months later you had another baby. 49 00:05:54,062 --> 00:05:57,072 My parents were good Catholic parents. 50 00:05:58,608 --> 00:06:01,608 Everybody went to church on Sunday, 51 00:06:01,695 --> 00:06:05,155 and if you didn't have a ride because dad was a policeman 52 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,080 and he worked shift work, you'd walk to church. 53 00:06:08,952 --> 00:06:10,292 You know, it was unheard of 54 00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:15,580 to either miss church on Sunday or eat meat on Friday. 55 00:06:15,667 --> 00:06:17,417 During the Cuban Missile Crisis, 56 00:06:17,502 --> 00:06:19,842 we all knelt down and said the rosary. 57 00:06:21,256 --> 00:06:24,676 The Catholic religion, the Catholic faith was part of who we were. 58 00:06:29,055 --> 00:06:30,425 We were all altar boys. 59 00:06:31,308 --> 00:06:34,478 We were told it was an honor and a privilege to be an altar boy. 60 00:06:36,896 --> 00:06:39,976 The priests were the authority. 61 00:06:40,984 --> 00:06:42,364 You don't question them. 62 00:06:42,444 --> 00:06:46,414 Uh, you... You... Whatever they told you to do, you did. 63 00:06:47,157 --> 00:06:48,327 My mom was very devout. 64 00:06:48,408 --> 00:06:51,698 It was an integral part of the family, which came from her. 65 00:06:52,245 --> 00:06:55,075 But my dad was there. I mean, like, if we went to confession, 66 00:06:55,498 --> 00:06:59,588 it was nothing like seeing your father go to confession first and then come out. 67 00:06:59,669 --> 00:07:03,089 It was kind of like... If he believed and trusted the confessional, 68 00:07:03,173 --> 00:07:04,223 then we all did, too. 69 00:07:05,675 --> 00:07:09,425 My mother was, in fact, a true Christian. 70 00:07:10,263 --> 00:07:13,143 If you lived right and you loved God, 71 00:07:13,558 --> 00:07:15,228 that faith that you exhibited, 72 00:07:15,477 --> 00:07:18,227 plus the love that you had for your fellow man, 73 00:07:18,647 --> 00:07:23,187 would provide the hope that you need in order to succeed. 74 00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:39,920 Got you some cereal, 75 00:07:40,293 --> 00:07:44,763 put some strawberries on it today instead of banana. 76 00:07:47,842 --> 00:07:50,802 So, there's that, okay? Mm-hm. 77 00:07:50,887 --> 00:07:52,137 Your coffee. 78 00:07:53,473 --> 00:07:55,023 We'll let that cool a little bit. 79 00:07:56,017 --> 00:07:57,017 Alrighty? 80 00:08:09,698 --> 00:08:10,868 This is my senior. 81 00:08:12,075 --> 00:08:17,155 This was the end of a pretty horrific experience. 82 00:08:17,539 --> 00:08:22,879 And I probably was relieved that it was... ending. 83 00:08:24,921 --> 00:08:26,341 She holds memories, 84 00:08:26,423 --> 00:08:28,933 and I've been afraid of those memories. 85 00:08:37,392 --> 00:08:42,312 Archbishop Keough was the jewel in the archdiocese. 86 00:08:43,398 --> 00:08:45,938 It was a really nice new school. 87 00:08:46,484 --> 00:08:50,414 It had that spanking-new type of, uh, look to it. 88 00:08:51,489 --> 00:08:55,289 Run by nuns, the School Sisters of Notre Dame. 89 00:08:56,870 --> 00:09:00,620 It was really a big deal to be accepted to go to Archbishop Keough. 90 00:09:01,041 --> 00:09:03,501 You had to get in. You had to take an entrance exam. 91 00:09:03,585 --> 00:09:06,545 So, the big day in eighth grade would be when you came home for lunch 92 00:09:06,629 --> 00:09:10,799 and your letter was waiting for you that you had been admitted to Keough. 93 00:09:11,885 --> 00:09:13,295 It was prestigious. 94 00:09:14,262 --> 00:09:16,772 I was very excited because that's exactly 95 00:09:16,848 --> 00:09:20,098 where I wanted to go. It was within walking distance of my house. 96 00:09:20,810 --> 00:09:22,690 I really was excited about going. 97 00:09:22,771 --> 00:09:26,071 I remember my freshman year, I was very, very happy to be there. 98 00:09:27,942 --> 00:09:31,492 My parents worked hard that I could go to it. 99 00:09:32,822 --> 00:09:34,702 It was very exciting... 100 00:09:35,408 --> 00:09:37,038 but really strict. 101 00:09:38,286 --> 00:09:40,656 There was order, discipline. 102 00:09:40,955 --> 00:09:44,745 You know, you had nuns all over the place. There were a lot of nuns. 103 00:09:47,462 --> 00:09:52,262 Our administrators were nuns, our principal, our assistant principal. 104 00:09:53,384 --> 00:09:55,514 Joseph Maskell was the chaplain. 105 00:09:57,180 --> 00:10:02,560 There was also a priest by the name of Father Neil Magnus. 106 00:10:03,019 --> 00:10:07,819 He was responsible for studies or... Christian education or something... 107 00:10:07,899 --> 00:10:10,359 I never saw the man, that I remember. 108 00:10:20,537 --> 00:10:24,997 They had language labs and really state-of-the-art equipment. 109 00:10:25,542 --> 00:10:27,712 They had a science room. 110 00:10:28,670 --> 00:10:30,550 They had a large gym. 111 00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:34,470 It had a large outdoor field for different sports. 112 00:10:35,677 --> 00:10:39,677 They even put "we are women of a new age" in their song, 113 00:10:40,014 --> 00:10:44,644 and it was just supposed to be women being able to reach their full potential. 114 00:10:44,727 --> 00:10:46,517 It was supposed to be a safe place. 115 00:10:53,611 --> 00:10:57,241 My life would have been very different if I had not gone in that confessional. 116 00:11:02,704 --> 00:11:03,914 I was at Keough. 117 00:11:03,997 --> 00:11:05,117 I was a freshman. 118 00:11:07,208 --> 00:11:09,538 I went to confession there. 119 00:11:12,964 --> 00:11:15,684 It took me five tries to get to the confessional. 120 00:11:19,304 --> 00:11:20,814 I got in the confessional... 121 00:11:21,389 --> 00:11:26,689 and I told the priest something that I was feeling very guilty about. 122 00:11:29,272 --> 00:11:32,402 I had been abused by an uncle when I was younger. 123 00:11:33,443 --> 00:11:37,953 He was a pedophile and he was sexually abusing me. 124 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,040 That had ended, there was some guilt. 125 00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:48,075 And I always remembered it was Magnus and always remembered that he said: 126 00:11:48,791 --> 00:11:50,881 "Can I look at you, and what is your name?" 127 00:11:52,503 --> 00:11:55,473 And I always thought, "God, this must have been so terrible 128 00:11:55,548 --> 00:11:57,718 that he had to look at me and ask my name." 129 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:01,886 And at the end of it he said: 130 00:12:01,971 --> 00:12:04,521 "I don't really know if God can forgive this. 131 00:12:05,058 --> 00:12:08,388 I'm going to have to pray more on this and I'll get back to you." 132 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,950 Probably a couple weeks later, the same priest, Magnus, 133 00:12:25,036 --> 00:12:26,656 walked up to me in the hall... 134 00:12:27,705 --> 00:12:30,495 and he said he wanted to see me in his office. 135 00:12:35,296 --> 00:12:37,546 And Magnus was there... 136 00:12:37,924 --> 00:12:42,264 and he proceeded to just reiterate that I was so bad... 137 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:48,939 that it was going to take a while before there was going to be a real answer 138 00:12:49,018 --> 00:12:50,688 to whether God could forgive me. 139 00:12:52,605 --> 00:12:57,355 And that if I emptied myself of these behaviors 140 00:12:57,443 --> 00:13:00,453 that were so sinful, so bad... 141 00:13:00,989 --> 00:13:02,529 that it would make room for God 142 00:13:02,615 --> 00:13:05,695 to be able to fill me with the Holy Spirit... 143 00:13:06,369 --> 00:13:08,619 and that I could be forgiven. 144 00:13:09,706 --> 00:13:12,876 The things that he was doing was "sacramental," 145 00:13:12,959 --> 00:13:14,129 you know, quote-unquote. 146 00:13:14,585 --> 00:13:15,495 Um... 147 00:13:15,586 --> 00:13:22,046 That, you know, he talked about, uh, his come as the Eucharist, you know. 148 00:13:22,135 --> 00:13:26,925 He was doing symbols on me of the crucifix with it 149 00:13:27,015 --> 00:13:29,635 as if it was, uh, sacred. 150 00:13:30,143 --> 00:13:35,313 He was also saying that his come was the Holy Spirit that I was to swallow. 151 00:13:36,899 --> 00:13:38,399 I was very naive. 152 00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:40,860 I was extremely innocent. 153 00:13:41,446 --> 00:13:46,616 I had no idea that this was, um, abusive. 154 00:13:46,701 --> 00:13:50,751 I felt that it was a man of... 155 00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:53,789 Of authority, of faith, 156 00:13:53,875 --> 00:13:59,005 who was helping me become a good person. 157 00:14:00,006 --> 00:14:05,506 He was reminding me that the things that I had done were... 158 00:14:05,595 --> 00:14:08,255 Weren't done to me. That I made those things happen. 159 00:14:11,309 --> 00:14:15,729 After a couple of my therapy sessions with him, 160 00:14:15,813 --> 00:14:17,443 I went into the room... 161 00:14:18,441 --> 00:14:20,741 and then Maskell came in. 162 00:14:23,863 --> 00:14:26,373 From the beginning, I was afraid of Maskell. 163 00:14:26,657 --> 00:14:29,617 He had no qualms being angry with me. 164 00:14:30,036 --> 00:14:32,956 He started very early on calling me a whore. 165 00:14:35,041 --> 00:14:39,881 They would pray in Latin over me as they were having me do things to them, 166 00:14:39,962 --> 00:14:42,342 or they were doing things to me. 167 00:14:42,423 --> 00:14:44,973 Or one would be praying over me in Latin 168 00:14:45,051 --> 00:14:48,261 while the other one would be, you know, kind of saying: 169 00:14:48,346 --> 00:14:52,176 "Take the Holy Spirit," and, um... You know, through his penis. 170 00:14:53,810 --> 00:14:57,560 So, it is a very interesting dynamic to feel both of them in the room, 171 00:14:57,647 --> 00:14:58,977 to be cornered by them both, 172 00:14:59,065 --> 00:15:04,695 to feel two men of not only great size, 173 00:15:05,071 --> 00:15:09,161 but that they were powerful because they represented God. 174 00:15:11,119 --> 00:15:14,159 I... I wanted to get out of that room, 175 00:15:14,622 --> 00:15:18,632 and yet I felt that I had to be in the room in order to... 176 00:15:19,293 --> 00:15:21,923 to... be a good person. 177 00:15:22,630 --> 00:15:27,090 It was... It was the beginning of some of the thickest confusion 178 00:15:27,510 --> 00:15:30,430 that, um, probably could be imagined. 179 00:15:35,643 --> 00:15:37,403 At a particular point... 180 00:15:38,187 --> 00:15:42,687 I went to the room and it was just Maskell there. 181 00:15:43,526 --> 00:15:45,446 And it was a very scary point. 182 00:15:47,947 --> 00:15:52,447 He was angry at me because I wasn't getting better. 183 00:15:53,995 --> 00:15:58,455 I remember one time he was real angry and he was raping me. 184 00:15:58,541 --> 00:16:02,341 And I can remember my head hitting the... the wall. 185 00:16:04,839 --> 00:16:07,339 He was really upset and angry about something... 186 00:16:07,758 --> 00:16:10,338 and he was really taking it out on me. 187 00:16:12,388 --> 00:16:14,468 I couldn't figure out what I could do 188 00:16:14,557 --> 00:16:17,727 because I kept feeling like every time it was over, I thought: 189 00:16:17,810 --> 00:16:19,810 "Well, maybe this time God forgave me." 190 00:16:23,441 --> 00:16:28,071 I had never been in a school where a priest had a presence 191 00:16:28,154 --> 00:16:31,784 like the priests had there, because they had offices at Keough. 192 00:16:33,117 --> 00:16:36,367 Father Maskell wielded a lot of power 193 00:16:36,621 --> 00:16:39,371 and fear in people 194 00:16:39,457 --> 00:16:42,537 because you didn't wanna be called to his office or get in trouble. 195 00:16:43,336 --> 00:16:47,086 He was chaplain and school counselor at Keough. 196 00:16:48,674 --> 00:16:51,014 The building itself was a very long... 197 00:16:51,093 --> 00:16:55,473 rectangle with some corridors that went off in different directions. 198 00:16:55,806 --> 00:17:00,136 And his office was far from the administrative offices. 199 00:17:00,228 --> 00:17:03,898 He was down at the far corner where there was an exit. 200 00:17:04,690 --> 00:17:08,070 You used to see a lot of girls coming in and out of his office, 201 00:17:08,152 --> 00:17:10,202 which was kind of strange. 202 00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:11,819 But then I learned that: 203 00:17:11,906 --> 00:17:12,906 "Hey, you know what? 204 00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:16,490 If you wanna smoke, you... You can go in Maskell's office and smoke. 205 00:17:16,577 --> 00:17:18,867 Just go in there, talk to him, just hang out and talk." 206 00:17:20,873 --> 00:17:22,543 Maskell was an Irish priest 207 00:17:22,625 --> 00:17:27,955 right out of the traditional working-class Irish-American community. 208 00:17:29,048 --> 00:17:33,008 His mother often dressed her boy in Mass vestments. 209 00:17:33,094 --> 00:17:35,934 She used to sew him vestments and he'd dress up in them and... 210 00:17:36,013 --> 00:17:36,853 Mm-hm. 211 00:17:36,931 --> 00:17:39,091 Call the neighborhood kids over to say Mass for them. 212 00:17:40,309 --> 00:17:44,809 She went and bought NECCO Wafers and she segregated the white ones out 213 00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:48,937 so that they could serve as imitation hosts for Communion. 214 00:17:49,527 --> 00:17:52,027 While the other boys were playing football and baseball 215 00:17:52,113 --> 00:17:54,283 down two blocks away at the park... 216 00:17:56,784 --> 00:17:58,624 he would say Mass in the yard. 217 00:18:01,372 --> 00:18:04,792 From 15 years old, he was priest-in-training. 218 00:18:07,670 --> 00:18:10,090 In '65, he was ordained. 219 00:18:11,716 --> 00:18:15,596 And then his first assignment from 1965 to 1966 220 00:18:16,178 --> 00:18:19,178 was at a Baltimore parish named Sacred Heart of Mary. 221 00:18:21,142 --> 00:18:26,612 In '66, he was transferred to St. Clement Parish, which is adjacent 222 00:18:26,689 --> 00:18:28,769 to Archbishop Keough High School. 223 00:18:29,942 --> 00:18:32,452 He was made associate pastor there. 224 00:18:34,822 --> 00:18:37,032 And he supervised the Boy Scout troop there. 225 00:18:51,672 --> 00:18:52,972 This is my, uh... 226 00:18:54,342 --> 00:18:57,472 I guess... My wife calls it a dust collection room. 227 00:18:59,513 --> 00:19:02,313 That was my retirement certificate. 228 00:19:04,185 --> 00:19:06,515 There's my grandfather. The great-great-grandfather 229 00:19:06,604 --> 00:19:09,944 I was telling you about, Southern District policeman in Baltimore, 230 00:19:10,024 --> 00:19:11,984 and there's a picture of him later. 231 00:19:13,944 --> 00:19:16,364 Me and my brother worked 232 00:19:16,447 --> 00:19:18,697 in the police station he worked out of, so... 233 00:19:19,408 --> 00:19:20,908 Kind of like family tradition. 234 00:19:25,998 --> 00:19:30,798 When I started Catholic school in the early '60s, 235 00:19:30,878 --> 00:19:32,508 it was a pretty harsh environment. 236 00:19:33,631 --> 00:19:34,631 We were paddled. 237 00:19:34,715 --> 00:19:38,755 I mean, the nuns... We feared the nuns and... 238 00:19:39,011 --> 00:19:43,061 Not only the nuns, but the priests, they were on a whole different level. 239 00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:47,560 The priests were... more like godlike figures, and... 240 00:19:48,229 --> 00:19:52,569 I mean, they'd walk in the room, it'd just be silence, and, um... 241 00:19:52,650 --> 00:19:56,200 But this priest, Father Joseph Maskell, there was something about him. 242 00:19:56,737 --> 00:20:00,197 He had a... coldness about him. 243 00:20:00,741 --> 00:20:03,291 And I've served Mass for different priests. 244 00:20:04,662 --> 00:20:08,292 And one day, we were getting ready for Mass... 245 00:20:08,374 --> 00:20:11,004 You know, the altar boys, we'd get there a little early. 246 00:20:11,085 --> 00:20:13,335 He'd come into the sacristy and, um... 247 00:20:14,422 --> 00:20:17,302 He takes a handgun out of his pocket and put it on the... 248 00:20:17,383 --> 00:20:18,803 the counter in the sacristy. 249 00:20:19,176 --> 00:20:22,006 And being a street-smart kid, you know, from the city, 250 00:20:22,555 --> 00:20:25,265 growing up watching Adam-12 and things like that, I mean... 251 00:20:27,268 --> 00:20:30,518 Probably most kids wouldn't have questioned him, but... 252 00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:32,230 I just let it go. 253 00:20:32,773 --> 00:20:35,153 And I asked him, "Father, why do you have a handgun? 254 00:20:35,234 --> 00:20:37,324 You're a priest." And I'll never forget that. 255 00:20:37,653 --> 00:20:39,953 But I'll also never forget the look he gave me. 256 00:20:40,281 --> 00:20:42,741 I mean, he... Like as if he looked through me: 257 00:20:42,825 --> 00:20:44,075 "How dare you question me." 258 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,080 I didn't get a look like that... 259 00:20:48,956 --> 00:20:53,666 until years later interviewing violent offenders... 260 00:20:54,044 --> 00:20:56,594 talking to someone who had murdered somebody, 261 00:20:56,672 --> 00:20:57,722 looking in their eyes. 262 00:20:57,798 --> 00:20:59,378 That's when I got that look again. 263 00:21:13,522 --> 00:21:16,572 One time I went into the room and he said, 264 00:21:16,650 --> 00:21:20,150 uh, that it was time for me to participate in this. 265 00:21:21,614 --> 00:21:24,704 And he went over and took something out of the drawer, 266 00:21:24,784 --> 00:21:26,044 and it looked like a penis. 267 00:21:26,577 --> 00:21:29,827 And I was, like, not sure 268 00:21:29,914 --> 00:21:32,084 what in the world he was doing or what that was. 269 00:21:33,125 --> 00:21:37,755 He said, "So, now, you're gonna be participating in your therapy." 270 00:21:39,507 --> 00:21:43,007 And so he began to use it, and I remember crying and saying: 271 00:21:43,093 --> 00:21:44,973 "Please stop that, please stop that." 272 00:21:45,054 --> 00:21:48,354 And as it began to take effect... 273 00:21:48,933 --> 00:21:51,643 he came down real close and, you know, he was like: 274 00:21:51,727 --> 00:21:54,477 "Okay, let's see how much the whore likes it," you know. 275 00:21:54,688 --> 00:21:59,488 Um, and so then I had an orgasm, not knowing what that was. 276 00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:05,069 He came in close. He always liked to come down close. 277 00:22:05,699 --> 00:22:07,699 And he said, "You hated that... 278 00:22:08,494 --> 00:22:09,504 and I'm glad." 279 00:22:10,621 --> 00:22:13,461 And he said, "Get back to class. Don't be late." 280 00:22:15,501 --> 00:22:17,171 He never gave me a napkin. 281 00:22:17,253 --> 00:22:19,263 He never would hand me a handkerchief. 282 00:22:19,797 --> 00:22:25,547 He never told me I could use his bathroom. 283 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:26,966 It was always... 284 00:22:27,805 --> 00:22:30,925 Uh, "Pull yourself together and get back to class." 285 00:22:38,607 --> 00:22:40,227 And I'd hear the click of the door, 286 00:22:40,317 --> 00:22:42,697 and it was like I forgot everything that had happened. 287 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:49,700 I was walking in the hall... 288 00:22:50,202 --> 00:22:53,252 and I couldn't figure out where I was supposed to be. 289 00:22:59,128 --> 00:23:02,838 And Cathy Cesnik looked down and she said, "Jean, where are you...? 290 00:23:02,923 --> 00:23:05,763 Where are you supposed to be?" And I said, "I don't know." 291 00:23:10,222 --> 00:23:11,772 So, she told her class to... 292 00:23:13,517 --> 00:23:15,597 She'd be a minute and she went across the hall 293 00:23:15,686 --> 00:23:18,436 and she asked the teacher, "Is Jean supposed to be in here?" 294 00:23:18,522 --> 00:23:21,362 And she said, "Yes." And she said, "Jean, you belong in here." 295 00:23:21,650 --> 00:23:23,740 Then I went in and I sat down in a desk. 296 00:23:32,745 --> 00:23:37,705 Sister Cathy was the type of person that was approachable, 297 00:23:37,791 --> 00:23:41,341 and you knew that you could talk to her. 298 00:23:41,712 --> 00:23:44,802 You didn't get that all the time from the older nuns. 299 00:23:45,633 --> 00:23:48,013 You didn't feel like you could connect with them. 300 00:23:48,093 --> 00:23:49,803 They were more authoritarian. 301 00:23:50,304 --> 00:23:53,104 Sister Cathy was my favorite teacher. 302 00:23:54,475 --> 00:23:58,555 I played guitar, so I had my guitar with me all the time. 303 00:23:59,063 --> 00:24:04,403 And Sister Cathy played guitar, too, so I did a lot of practicing with her. 304 00:24:05,944 --> 00:24:09,204 She had more energy than any person I've ever met. 305 00:24:09,698 --> 00:24:12,948 Very upbeat and happy. 306 00:24:14,244 --> 00:24:17,964 You could talk to her about anything you wanted to talk to her about and... 307 00:24:19,416 --> 00:24:23,086 Sometimes she would give you advice and sometimes she would just listen. 308 00:24:25,297 --> 00:24:27,877 She just had a way of soothing your soul. 309 00:24:33,806 --> 00:24:37,226 At Keough, she was probably around... 25. 310 00:24:38,102 --> 00:24:39,772 So young. 311 00:24:41,063 --> 00:24:43,193 All through elementary school, 312 00:24:43,273 --> 00:24:46,323 the majority of the nuns that taught you were older. 313 00:24:46,694 --> 00:24:51,744 I mean, I had the same second grade nun that my father and his brothers had. 314 00:24:51,824 --> 00:24:53,624 So, she must have been a hundred. 315 00:24:54,535 --> 00:24:55,985 When we got to Keough, 316 00:24:56,704 --> 00:24:58,254 there were a lot of older ones. 317 00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:01,920 But there were a few young ones, too. 318 00:25:03,877 --> 00:25:07,337 Cathy was the standout beauty of them all. 319 00:25:08,132 --> 00:25:11,682 Physically beautiful, and her spirit was beautiful. 320 00:25:13,011 --> 00:25:15,261 It was like, "Why would you be a nun?" 321 00:25:25,107 --> 00:25:28,607 She approaches the altar to become the spouse of God, 322 00:25:28,694 --> 00:25:31,864 promising to serve God faithfully until death. 323 00:25:46,795 --> 00:25:50,585 These are calendars called Nuns Having Fun, 324 00:25:50,674 --> 00:25:52,764 and they're absolutely fabulous. 325 00:25:53,719 --> 00:25:56,469 This is called Sisters on the Dock of the Bay, 326 00:25:56,722 --> 00:25:58,682 instead of Sitting on the Dock of the Bay. 327 00:26:00,809 --> 00:26:02,059 Oh. 328 00:26:03,771 --> 00:26:05,731 This is called Mass Transit. 329 00:26:06,273 --> 00:26:07,273 Mass Transit. 330 00:26:08,317 --> 00:26:09,317 Get it? 331 00:26:10,027 --> 00:26:12,397 "I'd yell, too, but I took a vow of silence." 332 00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:21,156 My very first day of school, two nuns came out. 333 00:26:21,246 --> 00:26:23,616 I'd never seen a nun before in my whole life. 334 00:26:23,707 --> 00:26:27,287 Immediately, I thought, that's what I'm gonna be when I grow up. 335 00:26:27,377 --> 00:26:29,047 I had no idea what that meant. 336 00:26:29,296 --> 00:26:31,506 I'd never seen a nun before in my whole life. 337 00:26:31,799 --> 00:26:34,639 I just knew in my heart that's what I wanted to do. 338 00:26:37,930 --> 00:26:40,850 I loved elementary school and I loved the nuns. 339 00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:45,350 They were mentors to us. They were other mothers. 340 00:26:46,063 --> 00:26:51,363 So, I decided that if I wanted to do something special with my life, 341 00:26:51,693 --> 00:26:54,033 I could go into the convent. 342 00:26:54,112 --> 00:26:58,532 So, I decided to enter the School Sisters of Notre Dame. 343 00:26:59,827 --> 00:27:02,747 We had 51 girls that entered. 344 00:27:04,289 --> 00:27:05,959 You're measured for a habit. 345 00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:08,380 And then the habit is sent to you, 346 00:27:09,044 --> 00:27:12,054 and then you go to the motherhouse, and I can see it in my mind. 347 00:27:12,965 --> 00:27:14,465 That day was so happy. 348 00:27:14,550 --> 00:27:17,340 I waited for that day since I was in the first grade. 349 00:27:18,595 --> 00:27:21,925 For me, it was a real honor that they accepted me 350 00:27:22,015 --> 00:27:24,635 and that I could get... I could begin that journey. 351 00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:27,859 There's, like, over 150 people 352 00:27:28,105 --> 00:27:32,105 that were between the ages of 18 and 21 that were there. 353 00:27:32,192 --> 00:27:34,442 It was very, very inspiring. 354 00:27:36,822 --> 00:27:41,792 We became canonical novices, which meant that we were cloistered. 355 00:27:42,411 --> 00:27:46,501 It's exactly like military boot camp, and it's pretty, uh, rigorous. 356 00:27:47,291 --> 00:27:51,091 I call what we had to go through spiritual boot camp. 357 00:27:52,504 --> 00:27:55,304 We'd get up in the morning at 5:15, 358 00:27:56,258 --> 00:27:57,508 we'd go to Mass, 359 00:27:58,302 --> 00:27:59,642 we'd have meditation. 360 00:28:01,597 --> 00:28:02,927 We'd go to breakfast, 361 00:28:03,265 --> 00:28:05,675 and after breakfast, you would have your chore to do, 362 00:28:05,767 --> 00:28:07,057 whatever you were assigned. 363 00:28:08,020 --> 00:28:09,480 Then we had classes. 364 00:28:10,188 --> 00:28:14,318 And we had to learn how to walk with our hands in our sleeves. 365 00:28:14,401 --> 00:28:19,241 We had great, big, giant sleeves and our eyes mortified, cast down, 366 00:28:19,615 --> 00:28:25,075 and our shoulders back and very erect, and without looking about. 367 00:28:27,372 --> 00:28:33,002 Cathy Cesnik was definitely not one of the dominant postulants 368 00:28:33,086 --> 00:28:34,546 in the beginning days. 369 00:28:36,089 --> 00:28:38,929 She was like a rosebud that gradually opened. 370 00:28:40,344 --> 00:28:41,604 She was kind. 371 00:28:41,929 --> 00:28:44,219 She was very spiritual. 372 00:28:44,306 --> 00:28:46,766 And when I got sick, she was there for me. 373 00:28:48,018 --> 00:28:52,058 We had what was called the Great Silence at night. 374 00:28:52,147 --> 00:28:53,977 We were not able to speak. 375 00:28:54,608 --> 00:28:57,818 And so it was a big deal to speak to somebody. 376 00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:03,830 But Cathy could see that something was wrong with me. 377 00:29:04,660 --> 00:29:10,750 She would just knock on the door and come in and ask me if I was okay, 378 00:29:11,250 --> 00:29:14,960 and ask me if she could do anything for me, 379 00:29:15,045 --> 00:29:20,465 and she would sit on the edge of the bed and just hold my hand and say: 380 00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:21,970 "You're gonna be all right." 381 00:29:23,512 --> 00:29:28,312 She was so full of compassion for everyone and everybody. 382 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,730 She had compassion for the Earth, 383 00:29:32,312 --> 00:29:35,152 and I think that's one of the reasons we entered the convent. 384 00:29:42,155 --> 00:29:43,985 Remember, it was the '60s. 385 00:29:44,574 --> 00:29:47,664 There was a complete change... 386 00:29:48,328 --> 00:29:50,118 in our society, 387 00:29:50,414 --> 00:29:51,674 in our culture, 388 00:29:52,249 --> 00:29:54,539 and in the Church. 389 00:29:56,003 --> 00:30:00,673 Vatican II was a big calling together of all leadership 390 00:30:00,757 --> 00:30:03,637 at the Catholic Church at the Vatican by the pope 391 00:30:04,219 --> 00:30:06,889 to look at religious life 392 00:30:06,972 --> 00:30:10,392 and to look at life in the Church and how it can be renewed. 393 00:30:11,143 --> 00:30:13,233 There were a huge amount of changes. 394 00:30:13,312 --> 00:30:16,862 Religious communities decided to change their religious habits 395 00:30:16,940 --> 00:30:20,190 that they had been wearing for hundreds and hundreds of years. 396 00:30:23,071 --> 00:30:26,581 The pope said you've gotta get involved in injustice 397 00:30:27,117 --> 00:30:30,407 to be a part of these great movements, 398 00:30:30,954 --> 00:30:32,374 the civil rights movement, 399 00:30:32,873 --> 00:30:34,503 stopping the Vietnam War. 400 00:30:34,833 --> 00:30:39,503 This was the role of us as religious, 401 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,760 to be a part of changing the world. 402 00:30:54,478 --> 00:30:57,358 We'd be sitting there. All of a sudden, you'd hear Maskell's voice: 403 00:30:57,439 --> 00:31:00,229 "I'd like to see so-and-so..." And he would say their name 404 00:31:00,317 --> 00:31:03,147 and he would have... "Have them come to my office immediately." 405 00:31:03,945 --> 00:31:07,065 And then he'd click off like... There was no if, ands, buts. 406 00:31:07,157 --> 00:31:08,777 You just sent them right away. 407 00:31:09,659 --> 00:31:12,329 It was almost like he had the teachers afraid of him, too. 408 00:31:13,789 --> 00:31:17,329 I was standing at Joseph Maskell's door and I knocked on it. 409 00:31:17,667 --> 00:31:21,337 And Cathy walked down the corridor behind me, 410 00:31:21,922 --> 00:31:24,802 and she said, "Hi, Jeannie. 411 00:31:24,883 --> 00:31:26,803 I didn't know you needed these services." 412 00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:30,809 And he opened the door, and he looked at me, 413 00:31:31,348 --> 00:31:35,308 and then looked over my head at her, and I went into the room. 414 00:31:35,727 --> 00:31:39,017 And she said, "I didn't know Jeannie needed these services." 415 00:31:41,108 --> 00:31:44,188 And he said, "Oh, yeah, yeah. It's been very effective, real effective." 416 00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:47,820 And he closed the door. 417 00:31:49,741 --> 00:31:52,451 She had the courage to not only address me, 418 00:31:52,953 --> 00:31:55,163 but she also addressed him. 419 00:31:57,416 --> 00:31:59,786 It was almost like she was letting him know 420 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:01,246 that she was also observing. 421 00:32:03,213 --> 00:32:06,933 I think that she was watching a number of us. 422 00:32:10,679 --> 00:32:15,019 His sessions would be supposedly guidance sessions, 423 00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:17,230 'cause he was the counselor for the school. 424 00:32:18,728 --> 00:32:21,358 He started asking personal questions 425 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,320 that were really something you didn't wanna talk about. 426 00:32:25,861 --> 00:32:28,571 And he says, "You're gonna have to be punished for this," 427 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:30,566 because it was a sin. 428 00:32:31,366 --> 00:32:35,536 Just getting called to his office was pure trauma to me. 429 00:32:36,288 --> 00:32:40,538 I could be anywhere in the building and hear my name overhead. 430 00:32:40,792 --> 00:32:45,012 And I remember, like, one time I was in Spanish class, 431 00:32:45,255 --> 00:32:47,795 and he called my name again, 432 00:32:48,216 --> 00:32:53,306 and I, um... would start crying and telling the teacher: 433 00:32:53,388 --> 00:32:54,868 "I don't wanna go. I don't wanna go." 434 00:32:54,931 --> 00:32:56,641 One teacher, uh, said: 435 00:32:56,725 --> 00:33:00,395 "I know he's weird and all, but you have to go." 436 00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:07,190 When you were called over the loudspeaker to report to Father Maskell, 437 00:33:07,277 --> 00:33:10,277 a dead silence would come over the classroom, 438 00:33:10,614 --> 00:33:14,914 and other, um, girls would look at you with sad eyes. 439 00:33:15,494 --> 00:33:20,584 And the teachers, they... They would just, you know, look down or whatever. 440 00:33:20,665 --> 00:33:21,665 It was like... 441 00:33:22,334 --> 00:33:24,794 They knew something was going on. 442 00:33:26,546 --> 00:33:27,916 They had to. 443 00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:31,760 At a certain point... 444 00:33:32,427 --> 00:33:34,677 could've been more into my sophomore year, 445 00:33:35,889 --> 00:33:37,849 he would bring other people into the room. 446 00:33:41,186 --> 00:33:44,476 I would get there and there would be someone sitting in a chair, 447 00:33:45,023 --> 00:33:46,823 and I didn't know who it was. 448 00:33:49,027 --> 00:33:52,777 There were things that Maskell had gotten from me... 449 00:33:53,740 --> 00:33:55,700 about what had happened between my uncle. 450 00:33:56,701 --> 00:33:58,621 One of the things that my uncle would do 451 00:33:59,162 --> 00:34:00,162 is, um... 452 00:34:00,247 --> 00:34:04,247 There was a bar that he would frequent and he would take me in the back room. 453 00:34:04,334 --> 00:34:06,714 And when he would let people do things to me there, 454 00:34:06,795 --> 00:34:08,165 he would be stand by the door. 455 00:34:08,922 --> 00:34:12,682 And I always thought that it was, uh... Like he was my protector. 456 00:34:14,135 --> 00:34:17,465 So, what started happening was Maskell would stand by the door 457 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:20,136 while other people were doing things to me. 458 00:34:21,184 --> 00:34:23,734 So, it was as if Maskell became my protector. 459 00:34:28,316 --> 00:34:32,816 One time, it was this person, and he referred to him as a Brother Bob. 460 00:34:35,115 --> 00:34:38,365 I don't know that Bob was his real name... 461 00:34:39,411 --> 00:34:44,081 or if it was just a pseudonym that Maskell gave him. 462 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:48,956 Brother Bob was more like a loose cannon. 463 00:34:49,921 --> 00:34:51,971 He was violent. 464 00:34:52,632 --> 00:34:54,302 So out of control. 465 00:34:55,594 --> 00:34:58,104 And he proceeds to rape me from the back... 466 00:34:58,805 --> 00:35:00,805 and isn't pulling out. 467 00:35:01,182 --> 00:35:06,982 And Maskell comes over and he, um, grabs him, and he said: 468 00:35:07,856 --> 00:35:09,266 "You need to be careful. 469 00:35:09,899 --> 00:35:13,149 This is a pup of a whole litter of pups. 470 00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:14,820 We can't have that." 471 00:35:16,573 --> 00:35:19,783 So, he's very aware that my parents are very fertile 472 00:35:19,868 --> 00:35:21,578 and there was a lot of kids. 473 00:35:22,329 --> 00:35:26,579 And so I understand now what he's referenced to. 474 00:35:38,803 --> 00:35:43,183 I see myself leaving the room and I wonder if they just sat and laughed. 475 00:35:47,729 --> 00:35:51,149 I talked to Sister Cathy after school one day 476 00:35:51,232 --> 00:35:53,402 when we were playing guitar. 477 00:35:54,694 --> 00:36:00,494 I told her that Father Maskell was not very, um... 478 00:36:02,077 --> 00:36:03,077 religious. 479 00:36:03,662 --> 00:36:05,042 I think that's how I put it. 480 00:36:05,580 --> 00:36:07,420 And she asked me, "What do you mean?" 481 00:36:07,832 --> 00:36:11,212 And I told her that, um... 482 00:36:12,462 --> 00:36:16,012 he gets a little physical in his office. 483 00:36:16,716 --> 00:36:23,216 She acted like she didn't know, but yet her face said she did know. 484 00:36:26,768 --> 00:36:32,148 Joseph Maskell also was the chaplain for the police department, 485 00:36:32,607 --> 00:36:34,357 for the Air National Guard, 486 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,400 for Maryland State Police. 487 00:36:38,488 --> 00:36:43,028 Maskell was covered because his brother, Tommy, 488 00:36:43,118 --> 00:36:45,448 was a respected Baltimore city policeman. 489 00:36:46,037 --> 00:36:48,787 And just over the city county line, 490 00:36:48,873 --> 00:36:52,423 he was chaplain for the Baltimore County Police, 491 00:36:52,502 --> 00:36:55,632 and he was close friends with several of the police. 492 00:36:56,131 --> 00:36:59,091 Maskell had access to a lot of protection, 493 00:36:59,718 --> 00:37:04,758 and he also could maybe provide men with what they wanted. 494 00:37:10,311 --> 00:37:12,901 One of the persons who was standing in the room one time 495 00:37:12,981 --> 00:37:15,151 was a policeman in full uniform. 496 00:37:15,483 --> 00:37:18,653 Okay? If you can imagine having to do something to a policeman, 497 00:37:18,737 --> 00:37:20,067 your father is a policeman. 498 00:37:21,448 --> 00:37:25,618 I remember them walking in through a back door 499 00:37:26,035 --> 00:37:28,365 and me laying on the black couch. 500 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,040 And I could see the shirt and pants of the officer 501 00:37:34,544 --> 00:37:37,384 with the very bright light coming in the back. 502 00:37:37,464 --> 00:37:40,844 And that's when I heard the police officer say: 503 00:37:40,925 --> 00:37:44,465 "I don't want to," and Maskell encouraging him. 504 00:37:48,099 --> 00:37:50,979 I was sitting across the table from him... 505 00:37:51,352 --> 00:37:53,352 and he had a gun. 506 00:37:57,108 --> 00:37:59,608 And he's taking the bullets out one by one. 507 00:38:01,154 --> 00:38:04,704 And he's saying that if my father 508 00:38:05,241 --> 00:38:08,411 ever found out that I was whoring around... 509 00:38:08,953 --> 00:38:11,923 And then he took the gun, he put it up to my... my temple, 510 00:38:12,624 --> 00:38:17,004 and he pulled the trigger, and he said he will do the same thing, 511 00:38:17,086 --> 00:38:18,626 but he'll keep the bullets in. 512 00:38:19,923 --> 00:38:21,133 I was terrified. 513 00:38:23,343 --> 00:38:25,303 He used my father against me a lot. 514 00:38:25,637 --> 00:38:28,467 My father was a policeman, my father carried a gun every day. 515 00:38:29,808 --> 00:38:35,228 He was very aware of the families that were in the school. 516 00:38:38,399 --> 00:38:39,689 In my case... 517 00:38:40,443 --> 00:38:45,743 there was a lot of abuse in my life prior to meeting Father Maskell. 518 00:38:47,951 --> 00:38:50,791 He would find out what happened in your life, 519 00:38:51,287 --> 00:38:54,247 find out your personal life and what... 520 00:38:55,959 --> 00:38:57,289 what was going on... 521 00:38:59,212 --> 00:39:01,092 and then he would use it against you. 522 00:39:02,674 --> 00:39:05,804 Did I get chosen by him 523 00:39:06,302 --> 00:39:10,392 because he knew I had been previously abused 524 00:39:10,473 --> 00:39:14,353 and the relationship with my mother and I was broken, 525 00:39:14,435 --> 00:39:16,345 I would be easier prey? 526 00:39:16,437 --> 00:39:20,607 And, you know, I thought about that in nursing school years later. 527 00:39:24,445 --> 00:39:27,865 I entered Keough in 1967, 528 00:39:28,449 --> 00:39:30,659 and I was doing exceptionally well at school. 529 00:39:31,369 --> 00:39:34,079 My father was an old-fashioned man 530 00:39:34,163 --> 00:39:37,133 who believed that girls really shouldn't go to college. 531 00:39:37,208 --> 00:39:39,998 And so, even though I was getting really good grades 532 00:39:40,086 --> 00:39:42,126 in, um, academic subjects, 533 00:39:42,213 --> 00:39:45,553 he wanted me to take shorthand and business courses as well. 534 00:39:46,009 --> 00:39:47,009 So, I did that. 535 00:39:47,093 --> 00:39:53,393 And in my junior year, I suddenly got a call from the school office 536 00:39:53,474 --> 00:39:55,104 to go see Father Maskell. 537 00:39:55,894 --> 00:39:59,864 And he told me that he needed someone he could trust, 538 00:40:00,356 --> 00:40:07,196 someone that would keep absolute confidentiality about my classmates... 539 00:40:08,364 --> 00:40:13,874 that would be typing notes on their psychological counseling, 540 00:40:13,953 --> 00:40:20,673 and that I could get out of... tests, classes, you name it. 541 00:40:20,752 --> 00:40:22,462 I jumped at the chance. 542 00:40:22,545 --> 00:40:23,835 I already had two jobs. 543 00:40:24,422 --> 00:40:28,682 I wanted a car just so badly and I was saving up for that. 544 00:40:31,429 --> 00:40:34,389 I would just suddenly get a call over the loudspeaker: 545 00:40:34,474 --> 00:40:38,694 "Lil Hughes, report to Father Maskell's office immediately." 546 00:40:39,187 --> 00:40:40,647 You know, and there I would go. 547 00:40:44,108 --> 00:40:48,398 He would always give me a Coke in a... a paper cup. 548 00:40:54,369 --> 00:40:59,209 So much of what I was typing was almost all sexual. 549 00:41:00,249 --> 00:41:03,629 It involved incest, it involved bestiality, 550 00:41:03,711 --> 00:41:08,841 it involved girls having group sex, venereal disease, on and on. 551 00:41:09,175 --> 00:41:12,925 And these are people that I was sitting right next to in class. 552 00:41:15,181 --> 00:41:21,151 And so many of the records that I did type were about him 553 00:41:21,229 --> 00:41:25,609 helping the classmate by taking them to a gynecologist. 554 00:41:26,526 --> 00:41:28,526 I must've been so totally naive, 555 00:41:28,611 --> 00:41:31,161 because it didn't dawn on me that this was something 556 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,199 that was totally inappropriate. 557 00:41:34,867 --> 00:41:40,537 At the time, I just was taken in by his flattery, his attention, 558 00:41:41,082 --> 00:41:45,292 and the fact that I was being, uh, made to feel very important 559 00:41:45,378 --> 00:41:47,548 by someone who was very important in the school. 560 00:41:55,221 --> 00:41:58,561 Joseph Maskell, he earned a master's degree 561 00:41:58,641 --> 00:42:02,901 in school psychology from Towson State University. 562 00:42:04,313 --> 00:42:05,573 At some point after that, 563 00:42:05,648 --> 00:42:09,858 he went to Hopkins for a counseling certificate, 564 00:42:09,944 --> 00:42:11,574 they called it, from Johns Hopkins. 565 00:42:12,321 --> 00:42:18,451 Having the psychology certification gave him access to all these young people. 566 00:42:20,872 --> 00:42:23,502 Maskell was heavy into psychology. 567 00:42:24,083 --> 00:42:27,883 He knew how to manipulate people, I think, from that. 568 00:42:27,962 --> 00:42:30,382 And I forgot to tell you about Marnie. 569 00:42:36,054 --> 00:42:40,104 Marnie was a movie that was part of the religion class curriculum. 570 00:42:43,102 --> 00:42:45,982 If it had anything to do with religion, I don't know. 571 00:42:46,481 --> 00:42:50,781 The whole point of it was, she had repressed memories. 572 00:42:50,860 --> 00:42:52,900 And one of them in the white suits. 573 00:42:52,987 --> 00:42:54,777 Shut up, Marnie. No. 574 00:42:54,864 --> 00:42:56,124 Remember, Marnie. 575 00:42:56,199 --> 00:43:00,659 Sean Connery grew to love her despite her problems. 576 00:43:00,745 --> 00:43:03,575 What happened to you? Happened? Nothing. 577 00:43:03,664 --> 00:43:04,874 Nothing happened to me. 578 00:43:05,249 --> 00:43:07,589 I just never wanted anybody to touch me. 579 00:43:08,795 --> 00:43:10,585 You ever tried to talk about it? 580 00:43:10,671 --> 00:43:12,421 To a doctor or somebody who could help you? 581 00:43:13,049 --> 00:43:17,549 It was suggestive, you know, that maybe I have... things 582 00:43:17,637 --> 00:43:22,597 that I should talk to a counselor about so I don't turn out like Marnie. 583 00:43:23,142 --> 00:43:28,362 And eventually, he helped solve what had happened in her childhood 584 00:43:28,439 --> 00:43:29,819 that she had repressed. 585 00:43:29,899 --> 00:43:33,399 I won't let anything bad happen to you. You're all right. 586 00:43:33,486 --> 00:43:36,946 And then it all came out and... "Do you think I'm gonna be all right?" 587 00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:40,620 "Yes, Marnie, I think you're gonna be all right now. 588 00:43:40,952 --> 00:43:42,082 Yes, you are." 589 00:43:43,538 --> 00:43:46,788 And then, Maskell was our school psychologist, 590 00:43:46,874 --> 00:43:51,504 how convenient that he picked that movie for us to go and watch. 591 00:43:52,463 --> 00:43:54,303 He was a psychologist. 592 00:43:54,841 --> 00:43:58,221 He would hypnotize me sometimes. 593 00:43:58,302 --> 00:44:01,562 Sometimes it was with a pocket watch he had. 594 00:44:02,056 --> 00:44:06,186 There are blocks of time when I have no idea what happened. 595 00:44:08,563 --> 00:44:11,443 He did do psychological tests on me. 596 00:44:11,524 --> 00:44:12,944 He did Rorschach tests. 597 00:44:13,442 --> 00:44:16,702 Every ink blot was some kind of sexual thing. 598 00:44:18,447 --> 00:44:19,777 He did hypnotize me. 599 00:44:20,324 --> 00:44:24,124 He... But he presented it more as a challenge, you know, 600 00:44:24,203 --> 00:44:28,173 and with me saying, "Oh, you can't," and he's like, "Oh, let's just see." 601 00:44:29,542 --> 00:44:32,212 I think there was something in the Coke. 602 00:44:34,213 --> 00:44:36,883 I've never been certain of what happened. 603 00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:40,640 There's so many gaps in my memory 604 00:44:40,970 --> 00:44:45,430 of being with him, and I only have fragments. 605 00:44:58,070 --> 00:45:00,870 It was my... end of my sophomore year, 606 00:45:00,948 --> 00:45:02,328 so the summer was starting. 607 00:45:03,284 --> 00:45:06,294 I had gone back to the classroom 608 00:45:06,370 --> 00:45:08,540 to get a book that I thought I had left there. 609 00:45:09,081 --> 00:45:12,711 And Cathy was in the front of the class and she started just, kind of 610 00:45:12,793 --> 00:45:14,843 light conversation with me, you know, how... 611 00:45:14,921 --> 00:45:17,761 How was I doing, what was going on, how did I like Keough? 612 00:45:18,925 --> 00:45:23,005 And I said I didn't really like it. 613 00:45:24,555 --> 00:45:26,265 And Cathy said: 614 00:45:26,849 --> 00:45:29,479 "Oh, no. You know, is there something in particular?" 615 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,610 And... I said, "Yeah. You know, there's different things," 616 00:45:32,688 --> 00:45:35,858 but not really wanting to talk about it. 617 00:45:36,817 --> 00:45:37,817 She said, "Okay." 618 00:45:37,902 --> 00:45:42,532 She said, "Well, how about if I just ask and you shake your head?" 619 00:45:44,367 --> 00:45:45,697 And I was like, "Okay." 620 00:45:48,329 --> 00:45:52,959 The last time that I was called to his office, 621 00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:54,920 it was after school, 622 00:45:55,461 --> 00:45:59,051 and I was in the classroom with Sister Cathy 623 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:01,340 and my sister was with me. 624 00:46:03,386 --> 00:46:08,096 Father Maskell came on the PA and asked for me to come down the hall. 625 00:46:09,767 --> 00:46:14,437 And I looked over at Sister Cathy, and Sister Cathy looked at me. 626 00:46:14,522 --> 00:46:17,442 I know that it was a look of panic on my face. 627 00:46:18,192 --> 00:46:22,952 And Sister Cathy told him that I was leaving to go home 628 00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:24,370 because it was after school. 629 00:46:24,949 --> 00:46:31,369 My sister told me later on that she saw a flicker of acknowledgement 630 00:46:31,455 --> 00:46:33,165 between me and Sister Cathy. 631 00:46:33,916 --> 00:46:36,706 And that's when she knew that Sister Cathy and I 632 00:46:37,086 --> 00:46:39,126 knew something about Father Maskell. 633 00:46:41,424 --> 00:46:43,974 So, she asked me... 634 00:46:44,218 --> 00:46:47,388 was anyone making me do something that I didn't wanna do. 635 00:46:49,390 --> 00:46:52,600 And I shook my head. I remember looking away, 636 00:46:52,685 --> 00:46:57,815 and I shook my head, and she... She said, um... 637 00:47:00,651 --> 00:47:02,451 She said, "Is it...? Is it the priest?" 638 00:47:03,696 --> 00:47:07,156 And I looked up at her and I shook my head. 639 00:47:07,742 --> 00:47:10,492 And she said, "Oh, dear God. 640 00:47:10,578 --> 00:47:11,908 I thought as much." 641 00:47:11,996 --> 00:47:14,206 And she then hugged me. 642 00:47:15,499 --> 00:47:18,919 And she said, "I'm gonna take care of this. 643 00:47:19,545 --> 00:47:21,045 I want you to go home 644 00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:23,470 and I want you to have a wonderful summer." 645 00:47:25,217 --> 00:47:27,337 And I told Cathy, "Okay." 646 00:47:28,471 --> 00:47:29,511 And I left. 647 00:47:40,524 --> 00:47:42,744 Like soap bubbles are we... 648 00:47:43,736 --> 00:47:46,526 all echoing in an elastic chamber... 649 00:47:48,282 --> 00:47:51,042 always the fear of exploding to air. 650 00:47:52,953 --> 00:47:54,163 Bubbles touch. 651 00:47:54,747 --> 00:47:56,417 And, true, they break... 652 00:47:58,125 --> 00:48:02,835 but some are coupled in a rainbowed joining and float, 653 00:48:03,422 --> 00:48:07,432 and are, and burst together. 654 00:48:10,429 --> 00:48:12,519 It is dedicated to Gerry. 655 00:48:14,058 --> 00:48:15,308 We were soul mates. 656 00:48:16,936 --> 00:48:18,896 I was her best friend, she was mine. 657 00:48:20,898 --> 00:48:26,528 We first got acquainted in the summer of '66. 658 00:48:27,446 --> 00:48:32,236 We were corresponding in letters by July of that summer. 659 00:48:32,743 --> 00:48:36,373 And I would say that we discovered a real genuine love 660 00:48:36,455 --> 00:48:37,745 for each other at that time. 661 00:48:39,583 --> 00:48:43,593 There were very few people who knew what our relationship was. 662 00:48:45,297 --> 00:48:48,337 There was no going out somewhere to dinner or anything like that. 663 00:48:48,425 --> 00:48:49,425 We couldn't do that. 664 00:48:51,679 --> 00:48:54,059 She was facing a crossroads in her life... 665 00:48:54,598 --> 00:49:00,058 because she was coming up on the expiration of her temporary vows. 666 00:49:01,063 --> 00:49:04,943 The... The nuns took vows for X number of years, 667 00:49:05,818 --> 00:49:08,568 but then they reached the point where they would shift 668 00:49:08,654 --> 00:49:11,124 taking temporary vows to take final vows, 669 00:49:11,657 --> 00:49:14,447 and she was facing that. 670 00:49:15,995 --> 00:49:19,115 I was still a year away from being ordained. 671 00:49:20,374 --> 00:49:24,924 We're sitting next to each other outside Keough, it was a warm day. 672 00:49:28,465 --> 00:49:30,085 And we're sitting side by side. 673 00:49:31,260 --> 00:49:32,430 And I said to her: 674 00:49:33,637 --> 00:49:37,347 "I feel like I'm about to jump off a cliff, but I'm gonna do it anyway. 675 00:49:39,518 --> 00:49:42,228 You're facing a decision to go take final vows. 676 00:49:42,313 --> 00:49:45,403 A year from now, I will face a decision to become a priest. 677 00:49:46,942 --> 00:49:50,112 And I'm gonna say no to both and ask you to be my wife." 678 00:49:51,614 --> 00:49:52,914 And she turned me down. 679 00:49:53,490 --> 00:49:54,580 She said, "No. 680 00:49:55,159 --> 00:49:58,619 You're meant to be a priest, I'm meant to be a nun, so we'll go on." 681 00:50:02,833 --> 00:50:05,963 In spring of 1969... 682 00:50:06,962 --> 00:50:10,132 Sister Cathy was still teaching English at Keough. 683 00:50:10,466 --> 00:50:12,336 Then the summer came and we were off. 684 00:50:12,885 --> 00:50:16,925 And when I came back in the fall of 1969 to start the senior year, 685 00:50:17,181 --> 00:50:19,811 she was not there and she was no longer on the faculty. 686 00:50:20,392 --> 00:50:25,062 And it was not real clear to us what happened to her or where she went. 687 00:50:29,235 --> 00:50:30,855 School started up again. 688 00:50:31,946 --> 00:50:36,326 Cathy wasn't there, and Maskell was. 689 00:50:37,618 --> 00:50:40,448 At one point, he called me to the office. 690 00:50:41,205 --> 00:50:43,615 It was the first time that I was called to the office 691 00:50:43,707 --> 00:50:46,167 since I was back in... in my junior year. 692 00:50:46,252 --> 00:50:49,512 He was upset because, uh, he... 693 00:50:49,588 --> 00:50:53,218 Someone approached him during summer and said that they had heard that he was... 694 00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:56,600 Uh, he was, um... hurting the girls. 695 00:50:56,679 --> 00:50:59,599 He was making the girls do something they didn't wanna do. 696 00:50:59,807 --> 00:51:03,137 And I'm looking at the floor, you know, and he's, like: 697 00:51:03,227 --> 00:51:04,437 "That wasn't you, was it? 698 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,610 You weren't saying that about me, were you?" 699 00:51:06,689 --> 00:51:10,319 And I looked up at him and it was like, "No, no, no, no," you know. 700 00:51:10,609 --> 00:51:12,819 And he said, "Wow," he said, "I hope not." 701 00:51:12,903 --> 00:51:15,283 He said, um, "I think we need to reacquaint you 702 00:51:15,364 --> 00:51:17,574 with who the real whore is in this room." 703 00:51:19,034 --> 00:51:20,084 He was done, he said: 704 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,540 "You get yourself together and get out of here. 705 00:51:23,372 --> 00:51:26,502 You just remember who's got the whoring mouth in this room." 706 00:51:29,336 --> 00:51:30,586 And I left the room. 707 00:51:33,048 --> 00:51:35,128 And Cathy was nowhere to be found. 708 00:51:38,095 --> 00:51:41,345 Cathy's dilemma was that we are not in touch 709 00:51:41,890 --> 00:51:44,230 with where these girls are coming from. 710 00:51:44,310 --> 00:51:48,110 We don't know what it's like to be living in the world. 711 00:51:48,188 --> 00:51:51,438 We're protected behind this convent thing, 712 00:51:52,026 --> 00:51:55,776 which limits our understanding of what a teenage girl is going through. 713 00:51:58,991 --> 00:52:02,581 She had gotten permission from her local superiors 714 00:52:02,661 --> 00:52:06,621 to try living outside the convent in an apartment in Catonsville 715 00:52:06,707 --> 00:52:08,287 with Sister Russell. 716 00:52:11,628 --> 00:52:16,928 This is what she looked like when she left Keough 717 00:52:17,009 --> 00:52:19,849 to go teach in a public school while remaining a nun. 718 00:52:21,513 --> 00:52:26,443 Cathy Cesnik and Russell Phillips were trying this experiment. 719 00:52:27,519 --> 00:52:31,729 I understood that Mother Maurice gave them permission 720 00:52:32,066 --> 00:52:36,526 to experiment with teaching in public high school 721 00:52:36,612 --> 00:52:40,162 and being nuns out in the regular world. 722 00:52:41,325 --> 00:52:46,865 I was surprised that they were the ones engaging in this. 723 00:52:47,873 --> 00:52:52,843 They were compliant nuns following the rules all the time. 724 00:52:57,883 --> 00:53:01,433 Two days before Sister Cathy disappeared, 725 00:53:01,970 --> 00:53:04,970 a friend and I went to her apartment, casually, 726 00:53:05,057 --> 00:53:06,137 for a visit... 727 00:53:07,434 --> 00:53:10,064 and we talked shortly. 728 00:53:10,145 --> 00:53:11,555 We didn't talk in-depth 729 00:53:11,647 --> 00:53:14,107 because my friend didn't know what was going on. 730 00:53:14,692 --> 00:53:18,902 Sister Cathy asked me how things were, and I knew what she meant. 731 00:53:19,446 --> 00:53:22,776 I was... hesitant to answer. 732 00:53:24,201 --> 00:53:26,791 And she says, "It'll be taken care of, don't worry." 733 00:53:27,871 --> 00:53:32,001 We know of two women, Jean and Kathy Hobeck, 734 00:53:32,084 --> 00:53:36,134 who shared with Cathy that they were being abused 735 00:53:36,213 --> 00:53:37,673 by Joseph Maskell. 736 00:53:38,590 --> 00:53:42,260 We also know now that there is a third woman 737 00:53:42,344 --> 00:53:45,854 who, in fact, was in Sister Cathy's apartment 738 00:53:46,515 --> 00:53:48,925 the night before Cathy disappeared. 739 00:53:51,854 --> 00:53:57,234 She and her boyfriend arrived to visit the two sisters, 740 00:53:57,317 --> 00:53:58,527 Cathy and Russell, 741 00:53:59,027 --> 00:54:02,817 and she was sharing with Cathy about the abuse. 742 00:54:03,615 --> 00:54:07,905 And Joseph Maskell and Father Neil Magnus 743 00:54:08,162 --> 00:54:10,712 came into the apartment without knocking. 744 00:54:11,623 --> 00:54:15,843 I asked her specifically what expressions were on their faces, 745 00:54:16,128 --> 00:54:20,918 and she said Maskell was furious, Magnus looked dumb. 746 00:54:21,425 --> 00:54:25,295 Sister Cathy sent her out, and her boyfriend out of the apartment. 747 00:54:26,430 --> 00:54:29,350 The next day, when she went to school, 748 00:54:30,142 --> 00:54:33,232 he called her into his office and said: 749 00:54:34,062 --> 00:54:39,822 "If you say anything, I'll kill both of you and your families." 750 00:54:40,986 --> 00:54:42,396 She never said anything. 751 00:54:42,488 --> 00:54:45,988 Later that day is when Cathy disappeared. 752 00:54:46,992 --> 00:54:50,582 This woman, who has chosen to remain anonymous, 753 00:54:50,662 --> 00:54:53,582 has lived with fear all her life. 754 00:55:05,135 --> 00:55:07,255 Cathy and I were supposed to get together 755 00:55:08,263 --> 00:55:10,223 the day after she was actually killed. 756 00:55:13,101 --> 00:55:16,271 She said there was something serious she wanted to talk to me about. 757 00:55:18,607 --> 00:55:22,437 I thought she might... Wanted to reopen the question 758 00:55:22,528 --> 00:55:24,818 of whether or not we should leave and get married. 759 00:55:26,365 --> 00:55:30,945 But I look back now and say, if at that time she was aware... 760 00:55:32,162 --> 00:55:36,212 of priests sexually abusing the girls at Archbishop Keough, 761 00:55:37,042 --> 00:55:39,212 then maybe that's what she wanted to talk about. 762 00:55:40,254 --> 00:55:42,764 Would've been a hell of a conversation, I'll tell you. 763 00:55:44,174 --> 00:55:45,184 But it never happened. 764 00:55:50,264 --> 00:55:52,684 When I was called to the room, it was after school... 765 00:55:53,225 --> 00:55:54,595 and he was frantic. 766 00:55:55,477 --> 00:55:57,727 He said, "I know you're close with Sister Cathy... 767 00:55:57,813 --> 00:56:00,733 And I just... I wanted to let you know that she's missing." 768 00:56:00,816 --> 00:56:02,646 And he said, "But I know where she is." 769 00:56:02,985 --> 00:56:06,195 And I was like, "What do you mean you know...? You know where she is?" 770 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,030 He said, "I know where she is. Want me to take you to her?" 771 00:56:09,283 --> 00:56:10,583 And I was like, "Yes." 772 00:56:11,868 --> 00:56:13,748 We leave his room. 773 00:56:13,829 --> 00:56:16,789 I remember walking through the corridor of the school... 774 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,040 and we go out, and we get in a car. 775 00:56:21,420 --> 00:56:25,300 There's two unbelievable emotions that are going on at the same time. 776 00:56:25,882 --> 00:56:28,642 One was total shock. "What do you mean she's missing?" 777 00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,639 Like, it hit me like a... Like, in the stomach. 778 00:56:32,389 --> 00:56:35,309 And the other was, he knew where she was, relief. 779 00:56:35,934 --> 00:56:37,604 And I just knew I needed to see her. 780 00:56:40,314 --> 00:56:44,574 We pull up into this kind of a... It was a bit like a barren area. 781 00:56:49,615 --> 00:56:52,735 There was grass, and dirt, and, um... 782 00:56:52,826 --> 00:56:54,786 And I'm thinking, "What is she doing here?" 783 00:56:55,370 --> 00:56:56,500 And I'm following him. 784 00:56:57,664 --> 00:56:59,794 And he moved over... 785 00:57:01,793 --> 00:57:04,383 and there's a clump on the ground and I knew it was her. 786 00:57:09,468 --> 00:57:12,098 Before I knew it, I was kneeling down next to her. 787 00:57:12,429 --> 00:57:14,469 And there were maggots in her face. 788 00:57:14,723 --> 00:57:18,063 And I was wiping her face and just saying: 789 00:57:18,143 --> 00:57:20,903 "Please help me. Please help me. Please help me. Please help me." 790 00:57:23,941 --> 00:57:25,981 And I'm, like, looking at my hands... 791 00:57:29,029 --> 00:57:30,949 and he came down real close... 792 00:57:34,242 --> 00:57:35,242 and he said: 793 00:57:38,997 --> 00:57:42,207 "Do you see what happens when you say bad things about people?"