1 00:00:36,745 --> 00:00:37,913 Thanks. 2 00:01:04,481 --> 00:01:05,732 Excuse me. 3 00:01:05,816 --> 00:01:06,900 Many thanks. 4 00:01:06,984 --> 00:01:07,985 STATES KL. 2.30. 5 00:01:37,180 --> 00:01:39,766 Vin insists on meeting us at the airport. 6 00:01:43,312 --> 00:01:44,938 I want one more drink. 7 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:48,942 Where is the waitress? 8 00:02:13,133 --> 00:02:16,845 AN ORIGINAL STORY FROM NETFLIX 9 00:03:36,466 --> 00:03:40,637 There is a story where his death is a form of accident. 10 00:03:41,638 --> 00:03:44,391 1953 was a kind of accident. 11 00:03:44,474 --> 00:03:49,020 Difficult to understand, incoherent. But still a kind of accident. 12 00:03:49,104 --> 00:03:51,481 Then there is 1975, 13 00:03:51,565 --> 00:03:54,651 as it is a kind of drug suicide. 14 00:03:54,735 --> 00:03:57,237 "We conducted an experiment, it went bad. 15 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,614 The gods must know we tried to protect him 16 00:03:59,698 --> 00:04:03,577 but it went wrong some things happened and he died. 17 00:04:05,203 --> 00:04:09,082 incoherent, hard to understand, but suicide. 18 00:04:13,211 --> 00:04:16,548 Everything really started to change for something else. 19 00:04:17,007 --> 00:04:20,594 In 1994, when we had the body exhumed, 20 00:04:21,219 --> 00:04:24,181 it's starting to look like to be a murder. 21 00:04:25,182 --> 00:04:30,437 Over the past year does it go from murder to an execution, 22 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,815 carried out with the full legitimacy of the CIA. 23 00:04:34,733 --> 00:04:38,737 Including Richard Helms, and finally Allen Dulles, 24 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:41,364 where they got approval for... 25 00:04:42,365 --> 00:04:46,036 Not a murder, not a murder, but an execution. 26 00:04:51,041 --> 00:04:55,086 We should talk about what the problem with the CIA is, and always has been 27 00:04:55,170 --> 00:04:58,381 at least in those years where I have investigated it as a journalist. 28 00:04:58,465 --> 00:05:01,510 It is a fundamental question about integrity, honesty. 29 00:05:03,220 --> 00:05:05,931 I honestly think there is a double standard, 30 00:05:06,014 --> 00:05:08,683 when Mr. Colby asks us from the press about being responsible. 31 00:05:09,142 --> 00:05:11,436 i think that there is really a need for 32 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,482 and need for, that the CIA itself behaves more responsibly. 33 00:05:18,068 --> 00:05:21,029 If you step back, which is hard for me to do, 34 00:05:21,112 --> 00:05:23,323 because there are so many emotions, 35 00:05:23,406 --> 00:05:27,494 but then it's amazing that it could even happen. 36 00:05:28,245 --> 00:05:32,582 That people at all could believe such a robbery story. 37 00:05:33,250 --> 00:05:38,213 And that people like Seymour Hersh and all those other journalists jumped on it. 38 00:05:41,758 --> 00:05:44,219 I think that's Hersh's problem now. 39 00:05:44,302 --> 00:05:48,181 THE KILLING OF OSAMA BIN LADEN 40 00:05:48,265 --> 00:05:52,727 His first book in the 60s was about biological and chemical warfare. 41 00:05:54,479 --> 00:05:58,400 And then he writes about the CIA and all that... 42 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,572 ...which leads to the hearings, etc. 43 00:06:04,489 --> 00:06:09,995 His whole career from the beginning and up to now is part of this history. 44 00:06:11,204 --> 00:06:15,292 And his whole identity is connected with to be a man 45 00:06:15,375 --> 00:06:17,294 who doesn't fall for that fart. 46 00:06:17,752 --> 00:06:21,131 But in this case he swallowed it raw 47 00:06:21,214 --> 00:06:24,092 until last year, where I told him it's a myth 48 00:06:24,175 --> 00:06:25,927 and he didn't care about that. 49 00:06:26,636 --> 00:06:32,392 And he didn't like it to hear his reliable source say: 50 00:06:32,475 --> 00:06:34,769 "Eric is right, you are wrong." 51 00:06:37,772 --> 00:06:41,359 He also calls it "a lucky shot in the fog". 52 00:06:41,985 --> 00:06:46,448 He is the only one with the right sources and judgment 53 00:06:46,531 --> 00:06:50,118 to ask it the right questions right man, and it was a spot shot. 54 00:06:50,201 --> 00:06:55,040 When I give him the question, he asks the source it, the source tells him about it. 55 00:06:55,123 --> 00:06:57,375 48 hours later he has it. 56 00:06:59,044 --> 00:07:01,963 Now a year has passed, and he did not write the story. 57 00:07:02,047 --> 00:07:03,798 Why have multiple confirmations? 58 00:07:03,882 --> 00:07:10,180 My attitude is: "You only get such a chance once. 59 00:07:10,263 --> 00:07:14,643 I'm surprised you got this." He says, "Some will refuse to believe it." 60 00:07:14,726 --> 00:07:17,437 I say, "I don't care, if you have other sources. 61 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,689 They won't believe it anyway." 62 00:07:22,692 --> 00:07:26,947 SEYMOUR HERSH INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST 63 00:07:27,030 --> 00:07:28,365 -Are we driving? -Yes. 64 00:07:28,448 --> 00:07:30,617 Good. What do you want to talk about? 65 00:07:32,577 --> 00:07:35,038 Your first meeting with the Olson family. 66 00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:39,417 You know their history well. I was so naive then. 67 00:07:41,044 --> 00:07:45,090 I had been a journalist for 15 years. I had won many awards. 68 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,302 The My Lai Massacre I wrote about the CIA and Chile and Watergate. 69 00:07:50,136 --> 00:07:52,013 And I was still inexperienced. 70 00:07:53,014 --> 00:07:56,351 I believed the story of that he got LSD, 71 00:07:56,434 --> 00:07:59,104 because I only had been in the industry for 15 years. 72 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,234 The CIA gave people LSD. That's bad enough. 73 00:08:04,317 --> 00:08:06,695 But the bad was something even worse. 74 00:08:07,570 --> 00:08:09,114 That they killed him. 75 00:08:10,115 --> 00:08:12,784 But I'm not so sure that I can write about it. 76 00:08:12,867 --> 00:08:16,413 So what does that mean? We are talking about journalism for beginners. 77 00:08:16,871 --> 00:08:20,417 If I write about it, will I turn someone into a Snowden. 78 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:24,921 It's a thing. Secondly, even if I write what I know, 79 00:08:25,755 --> 00:08:27,841 should someone else say something. 80 00:08:31,886 --> 00:08:35,515 But I think Did something horrible happen to Olson? Yes. 81 00:08:35,598 --> 00:08:39,477 I think he was considered a who was antisocial? Yes. 82 00:08:39,561 --> 00:08:42,230 I think that in that year, in 1953, 83 00:08:42,313 --> 00:08:45,400 there was an incredible fear and paranoia about the Russians? 84 00:08:45,483 --> 00:08:50,864 And that substances were used to create one monster who kills without thinking, etc.? 85 00:08:54,617 --> 00:08:57,662 First, it is the goal of communism 86 00:08:57,746 --> 00:09:01,499 to establish themselves as the only society on Earth. 87 00:09:14,095 --> 00:09:17,474 Mrs Rosenberg and her husband was convicted of passing on 88 00:09:17,557 --> 00:09:20,727 secrets to Russia through a Soviet diplomatic channel. 89 00:09:24,731 --> 00:09:31,029 Even if there was only one communist in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 90 00:09:31,112 --> 00:09:33,615 would it still be one communist too many. 91 00:09:41,915 --> 00:09:46,711 From coast to coast the tenacious continue reluctant to use any technique 92 00:09:46,795 --> 00:09:50,715 to capture the minds and control behaviour of loyal Americans. 93 00:09:52,926 --> 00:09:56,179 What do you do with an insider, who knows a lot? 94 00:09:56,262 --> 00:09:58,389 Why not do something gruesome? 95 00:09:58,473 --> 00:09:59,766 But... 96 00:10:01,768 --> 00:10:05,730 ...I can't say what I know without put anyone in danger, so I can't. 97 00:10:06,147 --> 00:10:09,317 In the long series of deals and agreements 98 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,821 are you addicted to that a source provides you with information, 99 00:10:12,904 --> 00:10:17,617 but you cannot compromise that source by giving too much information. 100 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,411 It's not about information. 101 00:10:20,995 --> 00:10:26,417 It's about what you have to do to find the Olson story from the inside. 102 00:10:28,795 --> 00:10:34,008 Now if I ask someone: "What do you know about Olson?" 103 00:10:34,467 --> 00:10:39,430 Someone might know something, or someone says, "I'm looking at it," 104 00:10:39,514 --> 00:10:44,435 but what he discovers and how he discovered it, I cannot speak of. 105 00:10:46,688 --> 00:10:48,690 People sign for it. 106 00:10:57,699 --> 00:11:02,912 The deepest, darkest, most remote box throughout Washington. 107 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,335 A box inside a box, which is inside a box. 108 00:11:11,045 --> 00:11:13,631 That's my metaphor for it. 109 00:11:15,425 --> 00:11:17,969 It is a place, no one would have thought of going there, 110 00:11:18,052 --> 00:11:20,179 and which very few have access to. 111 00:11:30,690 --> 00:11:32,358 Is it in a box? 112 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:35,612 I don't know that. 113 00:11:35,945 --> 00:11:36,988 I don't know that. 114 00:11:37,071 --> 00:11:41,659 Is it in a journal on a bookshelf? I don't know that. 115 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:44,120 In a filing drawer? I don't know that. 116 00:11:45,788 --> 00:11:48,249 I'm just amazed, that it lies somewhere. 117 00:11:51,044 --> 00:11:55,757 And I'm amazed, that the man told Hersh about it. 118 00:11:56,090 --> 00:12:01,054 He had gone somewhere… and i don't know where 119 00:12:01,137 --> 00:12:03,598 but deep inside a deep box, 120 00:12:03,681 --> 00:12:06,392 and had found a document, 121 00:12:06,476 --> 00:12:12,148 which precisely describes, how the incident unfolded. 122 00:12:13,691 --> 00:12:15,026 In details. 123 00:12:16,402 --> 00:12:20,698 The source had then taken notes regarding the document 124 00:12:21,324 --> 00:12:25,912 and had read the notes to Sy Hersh. 125 00:12:26,287 --> 00:12:30,041 I think he was killed. I have that reason to believe but cannot prove it. 126 00:12:30,375 --> 00:12:35,380 There is something crucial that would clarify the case, but at the same time appoint people. 127 00:12:35,463 --> 00:12:36,673 So I can't do it. 128 00:12:37,423 --> 00:12:40,885 I did my best to find more information, 129 00:12:41,719 --> 00:12:44,138 and I will probably succeed in time. 130 00:12:44,764 --> 00:12:47,892 I found other incidents with suspicious deaths. 131 00:13:11,165 --> 00:13:14,752 Mechanism of the process. 132 00:13:17,005 --> 00:13:20,842 If I am right that he was killed, 133 00:13:21,592 --> 00:13:24,721 then there was a mechanism. It was not ad hoc. 134 00:13:25,596 --> 00:13:29,225 -What do you mean by "mechanism"? - I knew you would ask about it. 135 00:13:29,308 --> 00:13:32,437 What do you mean by "what do you mean"? There was a procedure. 136 00:13:33,438 --> 00:13:37,817 -A procedure to eliminate unwanted... -Why not? 137 00:13:41,195 --> 00:13:43,281 If you have a dissident in a system, 138 00:13:43,948 --> 00:13:46,284 You might have a procedure to deal with it. 139 00:13:47,952 --> 00:13:51,873 Maybe some of them were the ones who wrote the reports involved in the procedure. 140 00:13:53,541 --> 00:13:56,002 Maybe it was a huge, feverish cover-up. 141 00:14:04,093 --> 00:14:08,431 The documents gave an account. 142 00:14:10,099 --> 00:14:14,228 Abrupt, elliptical, not to say fake. 143 00:14:15,104 --> 00:14:18,483 DEEP CREEK LAKE NOVEMBER 18 - 19 144 00:14:18,566 --> 00:14:21,486 NOVEMBER 20 145 00:14:21,569 --> 00:14:24,489 Over the years I have concentrated gradually less about, 146 00:14:24,572 --> 00:14:27,200 what happened in those ten days, 147 00:14:27,992 --> 00:14:29,202 because we don't know. 148 00:14:29,285 --> 00:14:32,246 NOVEMBER 27, 1953 149 00:14:32,330 --> 00:14:34,290 NOVEMBER 28, 1953 150 00:14:34,374 --> 00:14:37,960 No one that I know or trusts, was present there. 151 00:14:38,753 --> 00:14:42,298 Whatever we think we know, we know because of these documents. 152 00:14:42,382 --> 00:14:45,510 The documents are patched together and incoherent. 153 00:14:47,303 --> 00:14:48,888 We don't actually know. 154 00:14:50,598 --> 00:14:52,558 So what is this about? 155 00:14:54,185 --> 00:14:57,397 That has always been the question for me. What is it about? 156 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,441 My father was not only murdered, but what is it about? 157 00:15:00,525 --> 00:15:02,151 What is the story about? 158 00:15:02,568 --> 00:15:06,280 It is about the position The United States suddenly found itself in 159 00:15:06,364 --> 00:15:09,992 in the post-war period, which one was not prepared for, 160 00:15:10,535 --> 00:15:11,994 and people started doing things, 161 00:15:12,078 --> 00:15:16,374 which brought the country's own democratic institutions in serious danger. 162 00:15:18,126 --> 00:15:19,877 How could you have a democracy, 163 00:15:19,961 --> 00:15:23,172 if the institutions do things, the people must not get wind of? 164 00:15:26,884 --> 00:15:29,345 Something is rotten in Denmark. 165 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:44,694 The very day after our visit in the White House, 166 00:15:44,777 --> 00:15:46,696 the next day, 167 00:15:47,405 --> 00:15:49,157 a hearing was held. 168 00:15:51,159 --> 00:15:56,789 The chairman was Bella Abzug. The committee had to investigate one thing. 169 00:15:57,165 --> 00:16:02,753 An agreement between the CIA and the Department of Justice 170 00:16:03,379 --> 00:16:09,635 at the beginning of 1954, a month after my father's death. 171 00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:13,598 For a hearing today filed Lawrence Houston, 172 00:16:13,681 --> 00:16:16,851 chief adviser to the CIA for more than a quarter of a century, 173 00:16:16,934 --> 00:16:19,395 from the foundation in 1973, 174 00:16:19,479 --> 00:16:22,732 testimony of how the CIA protected its agents, 175 00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:24,775 who may have acted outside the law. 176 00:16:25,151 --> 00:16:30,239 The CIA and the Department of Justice entered a memorandum of understanding, 177 00:16:30,907 --> 00:16:36,454 where it said that the CIA would not stay prosecuted for serious crimes, 178 00:16:37,205 --> 00:16:40,041 if that could be invoked a national security requirement. 179 00:16:40,458 --> 00:16:42,126 The witness she is questioning 180 00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:44,754 or questioning, is Lawrence Houston, 181 00:16:45,838 --> 00:16:49,675 The CIA's chief adviser at the time my father died. 182 00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:53,888 Even today it would surprise people, 183 00:16:53,971 --> 00:16:57,058 that there existed such a memorandum of understanding, 184 00:16:57,141 --> 00:17:00,603 and that she was afraid that it was unconstitutional and illegal. 185 00:17:01,103 --> 00:17:06,275 Even if there were allegations of murder, whose sources and methods were to be disclosed, 186 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,737 Did you not mean that the Minister of Justice? should be informed about it. 187 00:17:09,820 --> 00:17:11,906 I ask, with what authority? 188 00:17:11,989 --> 00:17:13,908 There was a balancing of interests 189 00:17:13,991 --> 00:17:18,120 between the CIA chief and the Ministry of Justice. 190 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:20,248 What should it say? 191 00:17:20,331 --> 00:17:23,417 How does it fit with our concepts of equal justice? 192 00:17:23,501 --> 00:17:27,338 I daresay the CIA did as much, or more, 193 00:17:27,421 --> 00:17:31,717 to protect those freedoms and rights, you speak of, with its working 194 00:17:31,801 --> 00:17:34,136 over the past 27 years. 195 00:17:35,346 --> 00:17:40,643 What do you imagine that Frank Olson did that they would kill him? 196 00:17:44,105 --> 00:17:47,525 You know what? I know that well, but I can't tell you. 197 00:17:49,026 --> 00:17:52,488 Would you like it? An interview with someone who says: 198 00:17:52,572 --> 00:17:54,949 "I am vigilant." 199 00:17:55,950 --> 00:17:58,077 Frank was considered a dissident. 200 00:18:00,621 --> 00:18:02,707 You must understand that in 1953… 201 00:18:03,749 --> 00:18:08,588 ...if someone was thought to be harmful for the war against the Russians, 202 00:18:09,547 --> 00:18:12,758 had no misgivings by tackling them. 203 00:18:12,842 --> 00:18:15,303 It would not only be to say: 204 00:18:15,386 --> 00:18:17,221 "You must leave the CIA." 205 00:18:18,764 --> 00:18:22,018 Tell me about it. Think about it. Someone who has secrets. 206 00:18:22,643 --> 00:18:25,896 You can't think so? Frank was out there. 207 00:18:27,690 --> 00:18:31,319 He let them know, that he did not share their opinions, 208 00:18:31,402 --> 00:18:33,029 and it was impossible then. 209 00:18:34,572 --> 00:18:39,994 He is a man who was deeply outraged over what he discovered. 210 00:18:42,496 --> 00:18:43,914 And he was dangerous. 211 00:18:44,290 --> 00:18:45,458 I can tell you that. 212 00:18:46,709 --> 00:18:48,252 I can't say more. 213 00:18:50,379 --> 00:18:54,425 DAY NINE HOTEL STATLER 214 00:19:55,569 --> 00:19:56,987 STATES 1018A 215 00:21:33,918 --> 00:21:38,964 I thought that would happen, that Hersh would write about it. 216 00:21:41,884 --> 00:21:45,012 Not a perfect solution, but nevertheless a kind of solution. 217 00:21:45,095 --> 00:21:46,138 And then... 218 00:21:47,223 --> 00:21:48,849 ...it gets torn away. 219 00:21:48,933 --> 00:21:50,351 He won't do it. 220 00:21:50,893 --> 00:21:52,353 He won't do anything. 221 00:21:52,853 --> 00:21:54,730 He has many reasons for that. 222 00:21:55,606 --> 00:21:58,067 Now you are in a worse situation than ever, 223 00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:00,820 because you know what happened but no one else does. 224 00:22:01,987 --> 00:22:06,325 And his detachment from it all just got bigger and bigger. 225 00:22:06,826 --> 00:22:08,702 Does he not believe what he heard? 226 00:22:08,786 --> 00:22:11,831 No, it's not even within the limits of what is possible. 227 00:22:11,914 --> 00:22:13,791 He knows he heard the truth. 228 00:22:13,874 --> 00:22:16,836 He fully trusts the source, he heard it from. 229 00:22:16,919 --> 00:22:20,840 At one point I asked Sy, “Why do you think your source told you that?" 230 00:22:20,923 --> 00:22:22,967 He said, “Because I asked him. 231 00:22:23,050 --> 00:22:27,096 We are good friends. I asked him about something, he knew the answer and answered me." 232 00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:28,097 That's all. 233 00:22:30,307 --> 00:22:34,520 Why are you so sure, that the source tells Sy the truth? 234 00:22:38,232 --> 00:22:41,485 Nobody had a reason to making up such a terrible story. 235 00:22:43,028 --> 00:22:44,822 Why do it? 236 00:22:45,823 --> 00:22:47,074 Why? 237 00:22:48,617 --> 00:22:51,620 It was... horrifying to hear. 238 00:22:52,538 --> 00:22:55,040 My father was executed by the CIA. 239 00:22:55,124 --> 00:22:59,044 It was a 100% authorized, institutional decision. 240 00:22:59,753 --> 00:23:03,465 It's only to endure, if it is published. 241 00:23:03,549 --> 00:23:07,136 For the last 40 years has the story been public. 242 00:23:07,219 --> 00:23:10,055 Is the story completely different, than the public heard, 243 00:23:10,139 --> 00:23:13,684 is extremely important, that it is told correctly. 244 00:23:14,101 --> 00:23:17,605 If it doesn't drive a person crazy, one must be immune. 245 00:23:18,063 --> 00:23:21,734 -You were already crazy. -Fine, but this didn't help. 246 00:23:23,402 --> 00:23:25,321 For me, part of the story is… 247 00:23:26,447 --> 00:23:28,657 ...the fact that that you cannot tell it. 248 00:23:30,451 --> 00:23:32,995 It is not a new phenomenon. 249 00:23:33,912 --> 00:23:35,998 It is very serious. 250 00:23:37,875 --> 00:23:40,419 I act on other levels, than people usually do, 251 00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:42,129 because I can obtain information. 252 00:23:42,212 --> 00:23:44,840 People trust me. They trust my judgment. 253 00:23:44,923 --> 00:23:47,468 I am old. Like I said, I'm 79. 254 00:23:47,551 --> 00:23:51,764 I've been doing this for 350 years, or something like that. 255 00:23:52,723 --> 00:23:53,974 I mustn't make a fool of myself. 256 00:23:54,808 --> 00:23:57,394 Now don't make a big deal out of it about journalism, 257 00:23:57,478 --> 00:24:00,939 and about incredible, sensitive, amazing stuff. 258 00:24:01,023 --> 00:24:05,069 The source is more important than the story. Always. 259 00:24:05,861 --> 00:24:08,864 Always. I am not able to to protect someone. 260 00:24:09,281 --> 00:24:10,824 And he doesn't understand that. 261 00:24:14,453 --> 00:24:18,248 For he would say: “I have been tormented of this for almost 40 years. 262 00:24:19,249 --> 00:24:21,001 Doesn't it mean anything to you? 263 00:24:23,671 --> 00:24:25,631 It ruined my life.” 264 00:24:30,636 --> 00:24:33,305 Do you feel, can you ever let go? 265 00:24:36,308 --> 00:24:40,020 I feel like I let it go, but it hasn't escaped me. 266 00:24:41,647 --> 00:24:43,565 All that I now know 267 00:24:44,233 --> 00:24:45,734 i needed to know 268 00:24:45,818 --> 00:24:49,363 when I was, let's say, 30 years old. 269 00:24:49,446 --> 00:24:51,240 Let's say 20 years. 270 00:24:51,323 --> 00:24:54,451 Or maybe 40. Maybe 50. 271 00:24:54,535 --> 00:24:55,619 Not now. 272 00:24:56,995 --> 00:24:59,873 I needed the truth a long time ago. 273 00:25:01,667 --> 00:25:03,210 A long time ago. 274 00:25:18,767 --> 00:25:20,144 Want to ask something else? 275 00:25:20,227 --> 00:25:23,397 Why do you think Eric hasn't been able to move on? 276 00:25:31,405 --> 00:25:33,198 It is a great loss, 277 00:25:33,282 --> 00:25:36,160 because he is so intelligent and had something to contribute. 278 00:25:36,243 --> 00:25:40,080 Although he is furious with me, hasn't he been illogical around me. 279 00:25:40,164 --> 00:25:41,206 He is right about me. 280 00:25:41,290 --> 00:25:45,169 I withhold something from him of one reason that he does not find worthy. 281 00:25:46,086 --> 00:25:49,256 He knew it didn't happen, they said it happened. 282 00:25:50,215 --> 00:25:51,759 He knew that immediately. 283 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,640 They did everything to hide it. But they are really good at that. 284 00:26:00,142 --> 00:26:01,685 They invented a story. 285 00:26:06,273 --> 00:26:09,067 The fact that one does not can put an end to it, 286 00:26:09,151 --> 00:26:11,695 will be a great satisfaction for the CIA. 287 00:26:11,779 --> 00:26:14,823 The old boys will love it. They will love it. 288 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,869 The espionage won. "We got away with one of the things." 289 00:26:19,328 --> 00:26:23,207 Although a few people know, what happened and then what? 290 00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:24,541 No one else does. 291 00:26:27,294 --> 00:26:31,340 It is a victory for them. A point to them, zero to us this time. 292 00:26:35,886 --> 00:26:39,181 But don't you know how beautiful it is not having an ending? 293 00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:43,101 I think this is so wrong of you to want an end to this. 294 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,604 It's nice not to have an ending. 295 00:26:46,605 --> 00:26:48,232 It really is. 296 00:26:48,315 --> 00:26:51,109 That says a lot about the world of investigation. 297 00:26:51,193 --> 00:26:54,196 Sometimes there is no ending. It cannot be neatly wrapped. 298 00:26:54,655 --> 00:26:55,906 Eric knows the ending. 299 00:26:57,699 --> 00:27:00,327 He knows the ending. I think he's right. 300 00:27:01,370 --> 00:27:02,830 I can't help him. 301 00:27:03,914 --> 00:27:06,917 He is firmly convinced that that he knows the end. Not? 302 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,878 -Is he in any way ambivalent? -No. 303 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:14,424 It's a terrible story. 304 00:27:19,179 --> 00:27:21,640 Lashbrook did not the dirty work. 305 00:27:23,475 --> 00:27:25,936 He was a very small, thin fellow, 306 00:27:26,562 --> 00:27:30,649 not someone who threw people out of windows... 307 00:27:31,650 --> 00:27:36,154 ...and it was far from his job. He was a chemist. 308 00:27:39,074 --> 00:27:41,869 They had specialists for that sort of thing. 309 00:27:41,952 --> 00:27:43,829 Yes, of course! 310 00:27:43,912 --> 00:27:48,584 And those people are in many cases, criminals. 311 00:27:48,667 --> 00:27:54,840 There were things that the wisest minds from Yale or something would never do. 312 00:27:54,923 --> 00:27:58,552 They could order it, but they didn't do it themselves. 313 00:28:00,304 --> 00:28:03,307 They were the security office. 314 00:28:05,809 --> 00:28:10,647 If a problem arose in a CIA office, 315 00:28:10,731 --> 00:28:13,025 you didn't take care of yourself. 316 00:28:14,026 --> 00:28:16,278 First, you weren't equipped for it. 317 00:28:16,361 --> 00:28:20,574 Besides, you don't want to be the one who who knows exactly what happened. 318 00:28:20,657 --> 00:28:23,827 "You don't need to know which solution we came up with. 319 00:28:23,911 --> 00:28:26,246 Tell us about a problem, then we will solve it, 320 00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:27,956 and you will not know what happened. 321 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,167 And we who do it for you, 322 00:28:30,250 --> 00:28:33,128 we don't even know why you thought it was a problem. 323 00:28:33,754 --> 00:28:38,467 Whatever happened to person X, which leads you to conclude, 324 00:28:38,550 --> 00:28:41,261 that something must be done it only comes to you. 325 00:28:41,845 --> 00:28:43,222 We don't want to know 326 00:28:43,305 --> 00:28:46,099 and you don't need to know how we fixed it." 327 00:28:50,062 --> 00:28:53,732 For them, my father was a problem, 328 00:28:53,815 --> 00:28:57,486 which became clear out at Deep Creek. 329 00:29:00,155 --> 00:29:03,116 The purpose of the entire meeting 330 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:09,039 was to find out whether or not Frank Olson was a problem. 331 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,377 He made some statements, 332 00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:16,964 who were very critical of it, his group did. 333 00:29:17,297 --> 00:29:20,717 They then gave him an opportunity to to "swear off" it. 334 00:29:24,137 --> 00:29:26,640 “I didn't say that. I didn't mean that.” 335 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,769 "Swear off" is a silly word. 336 00:29:31,103 --> 00:29:33,438 And he apparently said, “No! 337 00:29:35,023 --> 00:29:37,317 That is my position. I can't change it.” 338 00:29:37,985 --> 00:29:42,531 He refused to distance himself from his previous positions. 339 00:29:44,157 --> 00:29:49,121 And later it dawns on him, that it can have dire consequences. 340 00:29:50,122 --> 00:29:54,418 He thought: “I may have gone too far here. 341 00:29:55,168 --> 00:29:58,547 Maybe it will cost me a price, I don't want to pay." 342 00:29:58,630 --> 00:30:01,300 He began to realize that his life was at stake. 343 00:30:02,843 --> 00:30:05,846 He goes to work and says: "I want to quit my job." 344 00:30:07,806 --> 00:30:10,976 They take him to Abramson, the doctor in New York. 345 00:30:13,061 --> 00:30:16,648 He probably said: "We absolutely cannot guarantee what he will do.” 346 00:30:20,027 --> 00:30:24,197 Lashbrook contacted the security office: "We're really in trouble here." 347 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,581 That is the end of their responsibility. 348 00:30:32,664 --> 00:30:36,335 They probably don't even know exactly, how it will be handled. 349 00:30:37,502 --> 00:30:38,754 They don't know that. 350 00:30:38,837 --> 00:30:42,215 Security office organizes some men 351 00:30:43,008 --> 00:30:46,678 to do what the men are now doing. 352 00:30:57,064 --> 00:30:58,273 You, Bob? 353 00:31:00,275 --> 00:31:01,902 Are you in there, Bob? 354 00:31:01,985 --> 00:31:03,445 Bob? 355 00:31:04,029 --> 00:31:05,822 You, Bob? Bob? 356 00:31:07,074 --> 00:31:08,033 Bob? 357 00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:21,671 Okay. 358 00:31:28,261 --> 00:31:29,596 You best. 359 00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:31,848 Okay. 360 00:31:31,932 --> 00:31:33,934 Moment. Let me sit down. 361 00:35:40,221 --> 00:35:41,806 "Remember me." 362 00:35:43,975 --> 00:35:46,436 It's easy to emphasize the word "remember." 363 00:35:47,354 --> 00:35:49,356 But the other part is "me." 364 00:35:50,398 --> 00:35:55,028 You can make a terrible mistake if you remembers the other, but forgets himself. 365 00:35:56,780 --> 00:35:59,741 I remembered my father, but forgot who I was. 366 00:36:00,992 --> 00:36:03,912 -Do you think you lost yourself? -Absolutely. 367 00:36:03,995 --> 00:36:05,246 Complete. 368 00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:08,375 You get lost in a sea of questions, 369 00:36:08,458 --> 00:36:11,378 which all belong to the other, not one yourself. 370 00:36:11,461 --> 00:36:15,048 What price are you willing to pay? Chop off your left hand? 371 00:36:15,131 --> 00:36:18,301 Or up to the elbow? What about the whole shoulder? 372 00:36:18,385 --> 00:36:20,470 Or your right hand? Your right arm? 373 00:36:20,929 --> 00:36:22,472 Or your foot? 374 00:36:24,474 --> 00:36:27,227 How to take sensible decisions? 375 00:36:27,602 --> 00:36:29,187 Based on what? 376 00:36:32,190 --> 00:36:35,276 Because the value of it, one has lost, is unlimited... 377 00:36:38,154 --> 00:36:40,031 ...the sacrifice is unlimited. 378 00:36:43,576 --> 00:36:47,122 You decide to strive after something infinitely valuable 379 00:36:47,205 --> 00:36:48,873 and be totally committed. 380 00:36:51,876 --> 00:36:53,044 One is gone. 381 00:36:55,797 --> 00:36:58,842 You think that if you find the answer to that, 382 00:36:58,925 --> 00:37:01,845 it will bring you in again on your own life's path. 383 00:37:01,928 --> 00:37:05,348 But how can it do that, if you have lost yourself along the way? 384 00:37:05,432 --> 00:37:08,435 Or do you think that you get a court decision? 385 00:37:09,018 --> 00:37:12,188 Do you think anyone will pay the bills for all this? 386 00:37:12,605 --> 00:37:14,816 Do you think you will find peace of mind? 387 00:37:15,316 --> 00:37:17,277 What will it consist of? 388 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,613 If you find out, that your father was assassinated by the CIA? 389 00:37:21,197 --> 00:37:22,282 Is it better now? 390 00:37:23,158 --> 00:37:24,451 Are you feeling better now? 391 00:37:24,951 --> 00:37:26,661 Is it better than uncertainty? 392 00:37:28,163 --> 00:37:29,205 Is it? 393 00:37:30,373 --> 00:37:31,624 Wormwood. 394 00:37:33,001 --> 00:37:34,586 It is only bitter. 395 00:37:45,305 --> 00:37:48,266 Lyrics by: Sheila N. Hasahya 396 00:37:50,266 --> 00:37:52,266