1 00:00:09,748 --> 00:00:11,498 Hey. 2 00:00:11,533 --> 00:00:13,056 - Hi, Heather. How are you doing? 3 00:00:13,091 --> 00:00:14,753 I'm doing good. Doing well. 4 00:00:14,788 --> 00:00:16,103 Yeah. 5 00:00:29,159 --> 00:00:30,299 It means so much to me that 6 00:00:30,334 --> 00:00:32,345 you would say that because it meant 7 00:00:32,380 --> 00:00:36,166 so much to me to be able to, like, share that with you. 8 00:00:49,527 --> 00:00:53,966 I love you, and I will do whatever I can. 9 00:00:58,014 --> 00:01:00,234 Thank you so much, Benny. 10 00:01:01,278 --> 00:01:03,324 - OK, you too. - Bye. 11 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:05,021 Bye. 12 00:01:08,155 --> 00:01:12,942 I mean, all I did was listen to his story, you know? 13 00:01:12,977 --> 00:01:14,335 That's all I did. 14 00:01:17,686 --> 00:01:20,950 I feel sad that I was part 15 00:01:20,985 --> 00:01:24,179 of the problem for so long, 16 00:01:24,214 --> 00:01:28,401 and I guess I know how devout I was 17 00:01:28,436 --> 00:01:30,916 and what it would have taken for someone to make me 18 00:01:30,951 --> 00:01:32,753 think or feel differently. 19 00:01:32,788 --> 00:01:35,965 And I know deep down that that's what we're up against. 20 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,150 ♪ ♪ 21 00:01:38,185 --> 00:01:41,231 I'm promising that I'll help carry the burden, 22 00:01:41,266 --> 00:01:43,277 and I'll be an ally and an advocate. 23 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,325 But doesn't it like seem a little ridiculous 24 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,118 to you that it's me? 25 00:01:50,153 --> 00:01:55,428 You know, I'm just like an idiot housewife, 26 00:01:55,463 --> 00:01:59,684 and I'm the one that's taking the time to listen? 27 00:02:01,208 --> 00:02:05,821 I just feel overwhelmed and horrified 28 00:02:05,856 --> 00:02:10,878 and scared and... 29 00:02:10,913 --> 00:02:14,743 stuck, and it didn't even happen to me. 30 00:02:18,094 --> 00:02:20,118 I just want to do whatever I can. 31 00:02:20,153 --> 00:02:22,142 And I'm scared that I'm not enough. 32 00:02:26,276 --> 00:02:28,983 These stories should be enough. 33 00:02:29,018 --> 00:02:32,108 They shouldn't even need me to bring attention to 'em. 34 00:02:33,805 --> 00:02:35,772 I will never back away. 35 00:02:35,807 --> 00:02:40,638 I just hope that more will join the fight. 36 00:02:47,863 --> 00:02:51,867 - We grew up in the church and were abused by our dad, 37 00:02:51,902 --> 00:02:55,523 and all of our bishops, stake presidents 38 00:02:55,558 --> 00:02:57,229 for almost two decades 39 00:02:57,264 --> 00:02:59,056 knew what was going on at home. 40 00:02:59,091 --> 00:03:01,755 Nobody said or did anything to help. 41 00:03:01,790 --> 00:03:06,273 - I personally could not look at the church as responsible, 42 00:03:06,308 --> 00:03:09,241 or that they had a responsibility to me, 43 00:03:09,276 --> 00:03:12,823 because of the way that I was indoctrinated. 44 00:03:12,858 --> 00:03:16,370 - I get messages every day from survivors 45 00:03:16,405 --> 00:03:18,411 of abuse that talk about the way 46 00:03:18,446 --> 00:03:20,417 that the church had failed them. 47 00:03:22,898 --> 00:03:25,988 I'm on my way to meet with these sisters. 48 00:03:26,023 --> 00:03:29,291 They reached out to me. 49 00:03:29,326 --> 00:03:32,525 Their story is... awful. 50 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,390 And it sounds like the church just really let them down. 51 00:03:36,425 --> 00:03:38,609 And I don't understand how that could have happened 52 00:03:38,644 --> 00:03:43,397 so many times in so many different situations. 53 00:03:43,432 --> 00:03:45,634 The truth is, bad things are happening, 54 00:03:45,669 --> 00:03:47,801 and they're not doing anything about it. 55 00:03:47,836 --> 00:03:50,969 I want to find out who they talk to specifically, 56 00:03:51,004 --> 00:03:52,893 like what was said, 57 00:03:52,928 --> 00:03:56,214 and how they could have, you know, not only fallen 58 00:03:56,249 --> 00:03:59,465 through the cracks, but just been deliberately, 59 00:03:59,500 --> 00:04:04,113 you know, shuffled into a system that was abusing them. 60 00:04:06,158 --> 00:04:07,703 - Hi. - Hi. 61 00:04:07,738 --> 00:04:09,214 I'm Heather. 62 00:04:09,249 --> 00:04:11,163 Hi, it's so good to meet you. 63 00:04:11,198 --> 00:04:13,043 It's so nice to meet you too. 64 00:04:13,078 --> 00:04:14,710 You guys both have septum piercings. 65 00:04:14,745 --> 00:04:16,153 Yes, I wanted it since I was 16. 66 00:04:16,188 --> 00:04:17,484 Yeah, how long have you had it? 67 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:18,780 I did not give myself permission 68 00:04:18,815 --> 00:04:21,487 to get it until I was 36. 69 00:04:21,522 --> 00:04:24,002 I mean, I totally understand that, like, not giving yourself 70 00:04:24,037 --> 00:04:26,100 permission for it, and it's like, 71 00:04:26,135 --> 00:04:28,355 I really think it's the biggest badass thing 72 00:04:28,390 --> 00:04:30,069 you can do as a Mormon woman. 73 00:04:30,104 --> 00:04:31,714 - You know what I mean? - Yeah. 74 00:04:31,749 --> 00:04:33,708 I was scared to get a double pierce, you know? 75 00:04:33,743 --> 00:04:35,836 Like I hid it from my family. 76 00:04:35,871 --> 00:04:37,894 I am the older sister. 77 00:04:37,929 --> 00:04:41,019 I'm the middle child, but I'm the older sister. 78 00:04:41,054 --> 00:04:44,109 I am about 4 and 1/2 years older than Jennie. 79 00:04:44,144 --> 00:04:45,641 When we were small children, 80 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:47,469 she was the annoying little sister. 81 00:04:47,504 --> 00:04:50,159 When I was little, I had got a nickname of Mini Liz 82 00:04:50,194 --> 00:04:52,814 because I would just follow her around everywhere, 83 00:04:52,849 --> 00:04:54,681 and if she did something, I wanted to do it. 84 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:56,513 And if she liked something, I wanted to like it. 85 00:04:56,548 --> 00:04:59,838 She was the person who I wanted to be 86 00:04:59,873 --> 00:05:03,089 and my favorite person to be around. 87 00:05:03,124 --> 00:05:05,672 She has always been my example. 88 00:05:05,707 --> 00:05:08,185 - As we got a little bit older, 89 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:11,005 we definitely relied on each other a lot. 90 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,791 We became inseparable and really formed 91 00:05:13,826 --> 00:05:17,412 a really special relationship. 92 00:05:17,447 --> 00:05:19,545 We've lived in a lot of different places. 93 00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:23,105 My dad was in the Navy, so I was born on Guam, 94 00:05:23,140 --> 00:05:25,385 along with my older brother. 95 00:05:25,420 --> 00:05:27,631 And then we moved to San Diego. 96 00:05:27,666 --> 00:05:28,858 Jennie was born there. 97 00:05:28,893 --> 00:05:32,166 We lived there until I was about ten. 98 00:05:32,201 --> 00:05:34,681 Then we moved to this teeny-tiny little town 99 00:05:34,716 --> 00:05:37,440 in northern Minnesota with a very small branch. 100 00:05:37,475 --> 00:05:40,165 I often tell my husband, who grew up here in Utah, 101 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,307 that I had a much more staunch, 102 00:05:42,342 --> 00:05:45,954 like, Mormon upbringing than he did. 103 00:05:45,989 --> 00:05:47,964 ♪ ♪ 104 00:05:47,999 --> 00:05:51,089 It's really hard to talk about it in terms of beliefs, 105 00:05:51,124 --> 00:05:54,179 because it was more like my entire sense of reality. 106 00:05:54,214 --> 00:05:57,482 I identified as a member of the Church 107 00:05:57,517 --> 00:06:01,005 of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 108 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,459 And that really meant something to me. 109 00:06:04,494 --> 00:06:08,977 What I found both disturbing and compelling about your story 110 00:06:09,012 --> 00:06:11,466 is it just seemed like the church had so many 111 00:06:11,501 --> 00:06:14,112 opportunities where it could have really helped you, 112 00:06:14,147 --> 00:06:16,284 and instead it just- it didn't. 113 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:19,394 If you're comfortable, kind of- 114 00:06:19,429 --> 00:06:22,469 can you kind of walk me through it? 115 00:06:24,296 --> 00:06:30,128 - There was never a time that I remember not being abused. 116 00:06:30,163 --> 00:06:33,349 My earliest memories are of abuse. 117 00:06:49,974 --> 00:06:52,812 My dad himself told me he always knew 118 00:06:52,847 --> 00:06:56,285 he would abuse his child if he had a daughter. 119 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,426 He never went for help, 120 00:06:58,461 --> 00:07:01,551 knowing that he had that, you know, predilection. 121 00:07:01,586 --> 00:07:04,606 He just hoped he would never have the opportunity. 122 00:07:04,641 --> 00:07:08,471 So when the opportunity came along and he had a baby girl, 123 00:07:08,506 --> 00:07:11,352 that's what he did. 124 00:07:11,387 --> 00:07:14,586 Some of my earliest memories 125 00:07:14,621 --> 00:07:17,785 are digital penetration, 126 00:07:17,820 --> 00:07:20,405 oral stimulation. 127 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,551 As I got a little older, it did move 128 00:07:23,586 --> 00:07:26,628 into a bit more violent, you know, 129 00:07:26,663 --> 00:07:32,321 full-on rape penetration and anal penetration, 130 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:35,689 and I didn't recognize it as wrong. 131 00:07:35,724 --> 00:07:39,023 I just recognized it that it hurt, 132 00:07:39,058 --> 00:07:41,904 and I didn't like it, 133 00:07:41,939 --> 00:07:47,379 and I wanted him to not do it, to stop. 134 00:07:47,414 --> 00:07:49,303 The belief that 135 00:07:49,338 --> 00:07:54,003 we can be an eternal family 136 00:07:54,038 --> 00:07:56,258 and that that's what we strive to be, 137 00:07:56,293 --> 00:07:57,659 that is drilled into you 138 00:07:57,694 --> 00:08:02,969 from your earliest, earliest times. 139 00:08:03,004 --> 00:08:05,615 He would say things like, we keep this between us. 140 00:08:05,650 --> 00:08:07,634 This is the way that God wants us 141 00:08:07,669 --> 00:08:12,017 to show that we love each other. 142 00:08:12,052 --> 00:08:16,330 And so when he would frame it as... 143 00:08:16,365 --> 00:08:20,978 these are the right things to be an eternal family, 144 00:08:21,013 --> 00:08:23,555 I believed him. 145 00:08:23,590 --> 00:08:29,378 He used the church's teachings as a way 146 00:08:29,413 --> 00:08:32,172 to make the abuse normal. 147 00:08:32,207 --> 00:08:36,428 My brother was the target for his worst physical abuse. 148 00:08:36,463 --> 00:08:38,904 I was the target for his sexual abuse. 149 00:08:38,939 --> 00:08:41,311 Jennie was the target for neglect. 150 00:08:41,346 --> 00:08:45,707 - My dad abused all of us slightly differently 151 00:08:45,742 --> 00:08:50,442 so that we would feel isolated so that we couldn't talk 152 00:08:50,477 --> 00:08:53,968 to each other and we couldn't 153 00:08:54,003 --> 00:08:55,935 relate to each other, 154 00:08:55,970 --> 00:08:59,286 and we would put up with more 155 00:08:59,321 --> 00:09:03,194 to keep everyone else from feeling what we were feeling. 156 00:09:08,417 --> 00:09:13,553 Oh, like, I might need to like just take like one second. 157 00:09:13,588 --> 00:09:15,898 Sorry. 158 00:09:15,933 --> 00:09:18,174 ♪ ♪ 159 00:09:18,209 --> 00:09:22,649 My sister is the strongest, 160 00:09:22,684 --> 00:09:24,703 most beautiful soul 161 00:09:24,738 --> 00:09:26,478 I have ever known in my whole life. 162 00:09:26,513 --> 00:09:28,315 She is my hero. 163 00:09:28,350 --> 00:09:31,483 I would not be here today on this Earth 164 00:09:31,518 --> 00:09:34,190 if it were not for my sister. 165 00:09:34,225 --> 00:09:37,237 - I've never met anyone more empathetic. 166 00:09:37,272 --> 00:09:39,892 To have gone through what she's gone through, 167 00:09:39,927 --> 00:09:44,584 and still want to even look anybody else in the face 168 00:09:44,619 --> 00:09:48,631 let alone connect with them is wild. 169 00:09:50,764 --> 00:09:53,157 Did you have any idea of what was happening to your sister? 170 00:09:53,192 --> 00:09:56,482 I didn't know details until much later, 171 00:09:56,517 --> 00:09:59,738 but I always knew that something was wrong. 172 00:09:59,773 --> 00:10:03,124 When my mom found out that my dad was abusing me, 173 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:04,699 I was only five years old. 174 00:10:04,734 --> 00:10:07,171 She discovered an act of abuse happening. 175 00:10:07,206 --> 00:10:09,609 I didn't really know why she was so angry 176 00:10:09,644 --> 00:10:10,923 or what was happening. 177 00:10:10,958 --> 00:10:12,786 It had been something I'd been experiencing 178 00:10:12,821 --> 00:10:14,753 my whole life up to that point, 179 00:10:14,788 --> 00:10:17,094 and so I didn't know it wasn't normal. 180 00:10:17,129 --> 00:10:19,366 And so she, you know, starts screaming, 181 00:10:19,401 --> 00:10:23,339 and I run and hide 'cause I thought I was in trouble. 182 00:10:23,374 --> 00:10:27,278 And her first instinct was not to go to the police. 183 00:10:27,313 --> 00:10:29,629 You know, she didn't think this is a crime. 184 00:10:29,664 --> 00:10:31,474 She thought this is a sin. 185 00:10:31,509 --> 00:10:33,284 And so she went to her bishop. 186 00:10:33,319 --> 00:10:36,000 ♪ We thank Thee ♪ 187 00:10:36,035 --> 00:10:38,646 ♪ O Lord, our God ♪ 188 00:10:38,681 --> 00:10:42,663 On my mom's side is extremely devout generations back. 189 00:10:42,698 --> 00:10:46,646 - The church was so important to my grandparents 190 00:10:46,681 --> 00:10:48,700 that that passed down to my mom. 191 00:10:48,735 --> 00:10:52,412 That was her frame of reference for life basically. 192 00:10:52,447 --> 00:10:56,090 Anything outside of the church is of the world, 193 00:10:56,125 --> 00:10:58,535 and being worldly was a sin. 194 00:10:58,570 --> 00:11:01,573 And so she went straight to the bishop. 195 00:11:02,879 --> 00:11:05,577 To a believing Mormon, the bishop's word 196 00:11:05,612 --> 00:11:08,023 is the word of God. 197 00:11:08,058 --> 00:11:12,846 When you have access to a resource like the power of God, 198 00:11:12,881 --> 00:11:15,770 you know, you run to your bishop. 199 00:11:15,805 --> 00:11:18,678 We were pretty open with discussing it in our family, 200 00:11:18,713 --> 00:11:20,993 like, throughout the years. 201 00:11:21,028 --> 00:11:24,335 So, you know, and I kind of heard later on from my mom 202 00:11:24,370 --> 00:11:26,246 and my dad kind of what was discussed. 203 00:11:26,281 --> 00:11:28,087 And what did that bishop say to her? 204 00:11:28,122 --> 00:11:31,168 Essentially, you need to be a better wife. 205 00:11:31,203 --> 00:11:32,613 You need to be a better member. 206 00:11:32,648 --> 00:11:34,006 You need to read your scriptures more. 207 00:11:34,041 --> 00:11:36,913 Make sure that you're doing family home evening. 208 00:11:36,948 --> 00:11:38,314 Like be a more supportive wife, 209 00:11:38,349 --> 00:11:40,961 does that mean have more sex with your husband? 210 00:11:40,996 --> 00:11:42,876 The phrase that I remember hearing was 211 00:11:42,911 --> 00:11:45,139 "to be more available" to him... 212 00:11:45,174 --> 00:11:46,758 That is so gross. 213 00:11:46,793 --> 00:11:50,884 So that he won't be tempted to abuse his daughter. 214 00:11:50,919 --> 00:11:54,626 So you're the gatekeeper of his actions. 215 00:11:54,661 --> 00:11:56,768 Yeah, like it was somehow her fault 216 00:11:56,803 --> 00:12:01,851 - or mine for tempting him. - No, yeah, absolutely. 217 00:12:01,886 --> 00:12:04,123 They're taking all the burden off of him, 218 00:12:04,158 --> 00:12:06,813 and they're making it this, like, bodily function... 219 00:12:06,848 --> 00:12:08,823 - Yes. - Rather than the crime it is. 220 00:12:08,858 --> 00:12:12,044 Yes, he gave him, like, a slap on the wrist. 221 00:12:12,079 --> 00:12:15,865 There wasn't any official disciplinary action taken. 222 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:18,224 No contact to law enforcement? Nothing? 223 00:12:18,259 --> 00:12:21,479 Nope, it was like six months of unofficial probation. 224 00:12:21,514 --> 00:12:23,041 Basically, don't take the sacrament. 225 00:12:23,076 --> 00:12:24,569 You can't say prayers. But he wasn't- 226 00:12:24,604 --> 00:12:26,406 Like they treated it like a- 227 00:12:26,441 --> 00:12:30,010 - like he had drank wine and- - Yeah, yeah. 228 00:12:30,045 --> 00:12:32,268 That's terrifying. 229 00:12:32,303 --> 00:12:34,457 - Yeah. - Mm-hmm. 230 00:12:34,492 --> 00:12:38,409 My understanding was that it was said 231 00:12:38,444 --> 00:12:41,625 there's no need for an official report. 232 00:12:41,660 --> 00:12:44,772 It was very much the message that, 233 00:12:44,807 --> 00:12:47,179 'cause my mom reported it to the bishop, 234 00:12:47,214 --> 00:12:49,516 that was all that needed to happen 235 00:12:49,551 --> 00:12:52,162 and no further action necessary because 236 00:12:52,197 --> 00:12:54,739 they were going to take care of it. 237 00:12:54,774 --> 00:12:59,343 He told him to go to counseling through LDS Family Services. 238 00:12:59,378 --> 00:13:01,615 He went to the office. 239 00:13:01,650 --> 00:13:05,654 He told them why he was there, and they said, stop. 240 00:13:05,689 --> 00:13:08,100 They warned him essentially. 241 00:13:08,135 --> 00:13:12,792 If you continue with telling us what you're doing, 242 00:13:12,827 --> 00:13:15,760 we will be obligated to report it. 243 00:13:15,795 --> 00:13:20,103 So he stopped talking and then didn't go back. 244 00:13:20,138 --> 00:13:22,666 Stop talking. Go home to your daughter. 245 00:13:22,701 --> 00:13:25,160 Yeah, I think that that initial bishop, 246 00:13:25,195 --> 00:13:28,133 he mostly was concerned about my dad's salvation. 247 00:13:28,168 --> 00:13:31,071 You as the victim were kind of just collateral damage 248 00:13:31,106 --> 00:13:33,247 and secondary to, like, getting this man 249 00:13:33,282 --> 00:13:35,466 on the road to righteousness. 250 00:13:35,501 --> 00:13:37,607 It's terrible. 251 00:13:37,642 --> 00:13:39,318 I mean, there's not even a word. 252 00:13:39,353 --> 00:13:40,994 I just- I don't have a word. 253 00:13:41,029 --> 00:13:42,743 There is no word. 254 00:13:42,778 --> 00:13:45,964 A bishop looking in the eyes of a five-year-old 255 00:13:45,999 --> 00:13:50,438 who he knows is being raped, patting her on the head 256 00:13:50,473 --> 00:13:52,318 and sending her home with her rapist. 257 00:13:52,353 --> 00:13:54,311 And every bishop is called by divine inspiration. 258 00:13:54,346 --> 00:13:55,582 Right. 259 00:13:55,617 --> 00:13:58,019 If he was inspired by God, 260 00:13:58,054 --> 00:14:02,145 why wasn't he inspired to get us out of that situation? 261 00:14:02,180 --> 00:14:08,508 ♪ Happy birthday to you ♪ 262 00:14:08,543 --> 00:14:11,763 - The abuse never stopped. It didn't even slow. 263 00:14:11,798 --> 00:14:15,045 It just continued and then progressed, 264 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,292 you know, to become more violent. 265 00:14:18,327 --> 00:14:21,826 ♪ ♪ 266 00:14:21,861 --> 00:14:24,646 That has definitely been a... 267 00:14:24,681 --> 00:14:27,222 ♪ ♪ 268 00:14:27,257 --> 00:14:28,876 A source of rage 269 00:14:28,911 --> 00:14:31,174 and even just a source 270 00:14:31,209 --> 00:14:35,056 of confusion. 271 00:14:35,091 --> 00:14:37,615 Like, how could this have happened? 272 00:14:37,650 --> 00:14:41,584 The bishop had the opportunity, 273 00:14:41,619 --> 00:14:44,892 obligation even, to report the abuse. 274 00:14:44,927 --> 00:14:49,801 My mom had the obligation to report the abuse. 275 00:14:49,836 --> 00:14:54,676 He was sent to counseling who had the obligation 276 00:14:54,711 --> 00:14:56,730 to report the abuse. 277 00:14:56,765 --> 00:14:58,636 And, you know, even going further, 278 00:14:58,671 --> 00:15:00,473 if the stake president knew about it, 279 00:15:00,508 --> 00:15:03,868 at that initial time, I was five years old. 280 00:15:03,903 --> 00:15:06,427 Abuse had been happening to me for five years. 281 00:15:06,462 --> 00:15:09,090 If it had been reported at that time, 282 00:15:09,125 --> 00:15:13,695 there is the potential that it could have stopped there. 283 00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:18,395 Because it wasn't, I was then subjected 284 00:15:18,430 --> 00:15:23,975 to 13 more years of abuse. 285 00:15:24,010 --> 00:15:27,839 Even more horrifying is to realize is it wasn't- 286 00:15:27,874 --> 00:15:30,364 - it wasn't just that one bishop. - Mm-mm. 287 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:32,244 Because that was just the first time 288 00:15:32,279 --> 00:15:35,630 that my mom went to her priesthood leader for help. 289 00:15:41,070 --> 00:15:42,506 You've got a big day. That's right. 290 00:15:42,541 --> 00:15:44,691 It's a big day. 291 00:15:44,726 --> 00:15:46,301 I'm going to get baptized. 292 00:15:46,336 --> 00:15:48,295 You're going to get baptized. By who? 293 00:15:48,330 --> 00:15:50,740 My dad. 294 00:15:50,775 --> 00:15:52,429 Well, isn't that nice. 295 00:15:54,954 --> 00:15:57,086 After the very first time she found out 296 00:15:57,121 --> 00:15:58,735 and he had that slap on the wrist, 297 00:15:58,770 --> 00:16:00,300 he was just a full member again. 298 00:16:00,335 --> 00:16:01,830 You keep saying slap on the wrist. 299 00:16:01,865 --> 00:16:04,580 It's like I cannot believe 300 00:16:04,615 --> 00:16:06,552 - that that's all he had. - Mm-hmm. 301 00:16:06,587 --> 00:16:08,489 It was after his, you know, six months 302 00:16:08,524 --> 00:16:09,803 of not taking the sacrament 303 00:16:09,838 --> 00:16:11,318 then he just was a full member again. 304 00:16:11,353 --> 00:16:13,676 He actually did my baptism. 305 00:16:13,711 --> 00:16:16,453 Like he just- he was just a regular. 306 00:16:16,488 --> 00:16:17,820 He baptized you? 307 00:16:17,855 --> 00:16:19,117 Oh, yeah. Yeah. 308 00:16:19,152 --> 00:16:20,631 And he was still abusing you? 309 00:16:20,666 --> 00:16:22,250 Oh, yeah, mm-hmm. 310 00:16:22,285 --> 00:16:25,832 The father's the priesthood leader of the family. 311 00:16:25,867 --> 00:16:29,379 So he's doing the priesthood work for the family. 312 00:16:29,414 --> 00:16:30,955 Well, we got our newest member 313 00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:35,385 of the Bonita First Ward here, Elizabeth. 314 00:16:35,420 --> 00:16:38,049 I'm proud of her. 315 00:16:38,084 --> 00:16:40,225 I can't imagine how 316 00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:44,185 that would change your reality, 317 00:16:44,220 --> 00:16:47,310 especially when you've told people he's gotten caught 318 00:16:47,345 --> 00:16:49,699 and no one's done anything about it. 319 00:16:49,734 --> 00:16:52,054 - I really wish that I could go back 320 00:16:52,089 --> 00:16:53,890 and hug that little girl 321 00:16:53,925 --> 00:16:57,807 and just be like, it's OK to be happy 322 00:16:57,842 --> 00:17:00,344 even though these really bad things are going on. 323 00:17:00,379 --> 00:17:02,812 You're finding the joy in your life right now, 324 00:17:02,847 --> 00:17:06,634 and that's OK because sometimes I feel shame for that. 325 00:17:06,669 --> 00:17:08,549 Like, why didn't I act in a way that other people 326 00:17:08,584 --> 00:17:10,037 could see that I was hurting? 327 00:17:10,072 --> 00:17:12,988 But also I look back, and I think, wait a minute. 328 00:17:13,023 --> 00:17:15,904 I didn't need to let people know in other subtle ways 329 00:17:15,939 --> 00:17:18,089 because we fucking told them to their faces. 330 00:17:18,124 --> 00:17:20,604 Yeah, in black and white words so they couldn't say, 331 00:17:20,639 --> 00:17:23,268 well, she seems fine to me. 332 00:17:23,303 --> 00:17:26,793 - Before the age of eight, you are incapable of sin. 333 00:17:26,828 --> 00:17:29,961 Once you turn eight years old, you are now capable of sin, 334 00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:32,525 and that's why you need baptism. 335 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,019 The idea of being capable of sin 336 00:17:35,054 --> 00:17:38,796 made me question what he was doing. 337 00:17:38,831 --> 00:17:42,374 Is it wrong? 338 00:17:42,409 --> 00:17:45,638 But part of the reason why I complied sometimes 339 00:17:45,673 --> 00:17:51,461 was so that he wouldn't look for the opportunity elsewhere. 340 00:17:51,496 --> 00:17:56,597 I couldn't imagine him doing that to anyone else, 341 00:17:56,632 --> 00:17:59,608 but especially not to my sister, 342 00:17:59,643 --> 00:18:03,256 my little sister who was just little. 343 00:18:03,291 --> 00:18:06,485 She was just so little. 344 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,739 I couldn't let that happen. 345 00:18:11,351 --> 00:18:14,419 - The idea of a premortal existence 346 00:18:14,454 --> 00:18:17,452 is a huge part of the doctrine. 347 00:18:17,487 --> 00:18:23,711 The idea that we chose to come to our family, 348 00:18:23,746 --> 00:18:27,549 we knew ahead of time as spirits 349 00:18:27,584 --> 00:18:31,632 a general idea of what sort of things we would be faced with, 350 00:18:31,667 --> 00:18:33,338 because I would have been, you know, watching my family 351 00:18:33,373 --> 00:18:37,812 that I'm going to come into, and I still chose to come here. 352 00:18:37,847 --> 00:18:40,345 I still chose this family. 353 00:18:40,380 --> 00:18:44,253 And for a long time, I thought it was because I can handle it. 354 00:18:44,288 --> 00:18:48,253 I must be really tough. I must be really valiant. 355 00:18:48,288 --> 00:18:52,218 I must be really special because God's asking me 356 00:18:52,253 --> 00:18:54,402 to do this really difficult thing. 357 00:18:54,437 --> 00:18:58,354 And so if I don't do it well, I'm going to disappoint him. 358 00:18:58,389 --> 00:19:01,984 He's expecting me to come back 359 00:19:02,019 --> 00:19:05,579 and thank him for the opportunity 360 00:19:05,614 --> 00:19:08,190 to have lived a mortal life. 361 00:19:08,225 --> 00:19:10,026 ♪ ♪ 362 00:19:10,061 --> 00:19:12,934 I'm assuming no one ever said take your kids and leave him? 363 00:19:12,969 --> 00:19:14,292 No. 364 00:19:14,327 --> 00:19:17,860 When my mom married my dad, 365 00:19:17,895 --> 00:19:21,160 she was very explicitly told by my grandparents, 366 00:19:21,195 --> 00:19:22,474 this is a forever thing. 367 00:19:22,509 --> 00:19:25,164 You are being eternally sealed to this man. 368 00:19:25,199 --> 00:19:27,479 You cannot come home. 369 00:19:27,514 --> 00:19:30,830 - Not too long after she had found out 370 00:19:30,865 --> 00:19:33,868 that my dad was abusing me, we went out to Minnesota 371 00:19:33,903 --> 00:19:36,052 for a family reunion. 372 00:19:36,087 --> 00:19:39,939 She was in turmoil the whole time, 373 00:19:39,974 --> 00:19:43,791 considering, maybe I should stay here. 374 00:19:43,826 --> 00:19:46,150 Maybe I don't have to go back. 375 00:19:46,185 --> 00:19:50,798 But because of the way that my grandparents framed 376 00:19:50,833 --> 00:19:55,015 this marriage to her, she felt it wasn't safe 377 00:19:55,050 --> 00:19:59,198 to go to them and say, I really need your help. 378 00:20:00,808 --> 00:20:03,993 I believe that my mom was a good Mormon, 379 00:20:04,028 --> 00:20:08,294 and that meant obeying your priesthood leaders. 380 00:20:08,329 --> 00:20:10,435 And the priesthood leaders 381 00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:13,046 said that they would handle it. 382 00:20:13,081 --> 00:20:15,779 Honestly, I think that she truly believed 383 00:20:15,814 --> 00:20:17,181 that he's been caught. 384 00:20:17,216 --> 00:20:18,356 He's not going to do it again 385 00:20:18,391 --> 00:20:20,880 because that's what repentance is for. 386 00:20:20,915 --> 00:20:23,047 You stop doing the thing that you are doing, 387 00:20:23,082 --> 00:20:24,362 and you repent of it. 388 00:20:24,397 --> 00:20:26,268 And because he had then completed 389 00:20:26,303 --> 00:20:28,139 whatever this initial bishop's- 390 00:20:28,174 --> 00:20:29,758 - His penance. - Yes. 391 00:20:29,793 --> 00:20:32,578 In her mind, he wasn't going to do it again. 392 00:20:32,613 --> 00:20:35,364 So she just for five years, just trusted him- 393 00:20:35,399 --> 00:20:37,853 trusted my dad that he had stopped. 394 00:20:37,888 --> 00:20:42,241 And then when I was ten, she discovered the abuse again. 395 00:20:48,812 --> 00:20:52,381 - When I was ten, I have a very vivid memory 396 00:20:52,416 --> 00:20:56,228 of the act of abuse that was happening 397 00:20:56,263 --> 00:20:59,131 when my mom caught my dad again. 398 00:20:59,166 --> 00:21:01,964 It was the middle of the day. 399 00:21:01,999 --> 00:21:03,610 She had gone somewhere- I don't know- 400 00:21:03,645 --> 00:21:05,185 grocery shopping, something. 401 00:21:05,220 --> 00:21:07,614 Had come home earlier than he was expecting. 402 00:21:07,649 --> 00:21:10,756 He had me in the bedroom 403 00:21:10,791 --> 00:21:14,934 and was performing oral sex on me, 404 00:21:14,969 --> 00:21:17,841 and my mom, you know, storms in the room. 405 00:21:17,876 --> 00:21:21,810 I'm crying. I can't say anything. 406 00:21:21,845 --> 00:21:24,587 And all I do is I lift my skirt to show 407 00:21:24,622 --> 00:21:26,372 that I don't have any panties on. 408 00:21:28,939 --> 00:21:31,777 My mom went to the priesthood again. 409 00:21:31,812 --> 00:21:35,555 And this time, they took it a bit more seriously. 410 00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:37,826 This time, he was excommunicated. 411 00:21:37,861 --> 00:21:39,820 And if you're excommunicated in that fashion, 412 00:21:39,855 --> 00:21:42,222 I'm assuming he had the 12- 413 00:21:42,257 --> 00:21:44,955 a disciplinary council of 12 area representatives. 414 00:21:44,990 --> 00:21:46,270 The whole stake presidency, 415 00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:48,228 the entire disciplinary council. 416 00:21:48,263 --> 00:21:50,287 All of those priesthood leaders knew. 417 00:21:50,322 --> 00:21:52,276 Excommunication doesn't do anything. 418 00:21:52,311 --> 00:21:55,139 It gives them plausible deniability of anything he does 419 00:21:55,174 --> 00:21:57,746 and also some enmity so that they can say, 420 00:21:57,781 --> 00:22:00,284 well, he wasn't a member of the church. 421 00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:02,625 - No one called the police again. - Mm-mm, no. 422 00:22:02,660 --> 00:22:06,189 And this time, so many more people knew. 423 00:22:06,224 --> 00:22:09,719 The church views excommunication as part 424 00:22:09,754 --> 00:22:11,773 of the repentance process. 425 00:22:11,808 --> 00:22:14,202 When there is a serious enough sin 426 00:22:14,237 --> 00:22:16,474 to require excommunication, 427 00:22:16,509 --> 00:22:18,989 it has to happen so that they can fully repent 428 00:22:19,024 --> 00:22:23,829 and then be rebaptized as a member. 429 00:22:23,864 --> 00:22:26,867 With the excommunication, with all of those 430 00:22:26,902 --> 00:22:29,870 priesthood leaders knowing, not one of them 431 00:22:29,905 --> 00:22:32,316 went to law enforcement, 432 00:22:32,351 --> 00:22:35,745 not one of them thought it might be a good idea 433 00:22:35,780 --> 00:22:38,661 to maybe protect the other children 434 00:22:38,696 --> 00:22:40,454 that he had access to 435 00:22:40,489 --> 00:22:42,839 and warned the members of the church 436 00:22:42,874 --> 00:22:45,054 that he was still actively attending. 437 00:22:45,089 --> 00:22:47,200 All I'm hearing is, like, them saying, 438 00:22:47,235 --> 00:22:49,672 whatever happened to Lizzie doesn't matter. 439 00:22:49,707 --> 00:22:51,539 What matters is what happens to him... 440 00:22:51,574 --> 00:22:53,735 - Yeah. - And we've taken care of him. 441 00:22:53,770 --> 00:22:55,861 So, like, I can't imagine as a victim 442 00:22:55,896 --> 00:22:58,202 feeling revictimized every time that it doesn't matter 443 00:22:58,237 --> 00:23:01,549 that you're abused, doesn't matter what he did, 444 00:23:01,584 --> 00:23:04,861 and it doesn't matter if you- it doesn't matter. 445 00:23:04,896 --> 00:23:08,055 I think one of the issues is when bishops 446 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:11,180 only see themselves as the spiritual leaders, 447 00:23:11,215 --> 00:23:13,979 because I think that once he'd been excommunicated, 448 00:23:14,014 --> 00:23:16,743 they felt that was the end of their responsibility. 449 00:23:16,778 --> 00:23:19,415 The church leadership, the top leadership, 450 00:23:19,450 --> 00:23:22,017 as long as they were doing what they said, 451 00:23:22,052 --> 00:23:24,663 then that's what they were supposed to be doing. 452 00:23:24,698 --> 00:23:27,275 And there's no room left for your own moral- 453 00:23:27,310 --> 00:23:29,198 there's no personal choice. 454 00:23:29,233 --> 00:23:31,627 No personal responsibility attached to those decisions 455 00:23:31,662 --> 00:23:33,559 because it comes from the top down. 456 00:23:33,594 --> 00:23:35,265 I mean, that's how I felt growing up. 457 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:36,937 Like, I had already made that choice 458 00:23:36,972 --> 00:23:38,251 when I got baptized. 459 00:23:38,286 --> 00:23:39,330 So now every other choice was already made. 460 00:23:39,365 --> 00:23:42,124 - Yeah. - Mm-hmm. 461 00:23:42,159 --> 00:23:46,294 - Once my mom realized that he didn't stop 462 00:23:46,329 --> 00:23:48,217 and wasn't going to stop, 463 00:23:48,252 --> 00:23:51,429 but she was still counseled to stay, 464 00:23:51,464 --> 00:23:54,572 she thought, OK, all I have to do 465 00:23:54,607 --> 00:23:58,262 is just make sure that he's never alone with her. 466 00:23:58,297 --> 00:24:00,534 It was her job to keep him in check. 467 00:24:00,569 --> 00:24:03,442 It was her job to keep him away from Elizabeth. 468 00:24:03,477 --> 00:24:06,614 And she spent years trying to do that 469 00:24:06,649 --> 00:24:09,752 and failing because she was a human being 470 00:24:09,787 --> 00:24:11,415 who needed to sleep. 471 00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:14,061 I heard a story similar where that burden 472 00:24:14,096 --> 00:24:15,941 was put on the wife, and so she just 473 00:24:15,976 --> 00:24:18,761 started sleeping in front of her child's door 474 00:24:18,796 --> 00:24:20,598 on the carpet. 475 00:24:20,633 --> 00:24:23,157 How do you ask that of someone? 476 00:24:23,192 --> 00:24:25,646 When we moved to Minnesota, 477 00:24:25,681 --> 00:24:28,997 my mom took my dad and met with the bishop. 478 00:24:29,032 --> 00:24:31,731 Just to say I'm working on coming back to church? 479 00:24:31,766 --> 00:24:33,262 It was a front, you know- 480 00:24:33,297 --> 00:24:34,864 I think it was to help him hide. 481 00:24:34,899 --> 00:24:36,527 The veneer of perfection, 482 00:24:36,562 --> 00:24:38,485 the perfect little Mormon family. 483 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,480 We couldn't have that without the father and husband. 484 00:24:41,515 --> 00:24:43,185 I know all about that, yeah. 485 00:24:43,220 --> 00:24:45,484 Nobody could know that he wasn't a member. 486 00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:47,538 Only the leaders knew. 487 00:24:47,573 --> 00:24:50,053 All the rest of the members of the Church didn't. 488 00:24:50,088 --> 00:24:51,507 So you guys were going to church 489 00:24:51,542 --> 00:24:52,926 every Sunday throughout all of this? 490 00:24:52,961 --> 00:24:54,501 - Never missed a week. - Yes. 491 00:24:54,536 --> 00:24:58,083 - So did your dad go to church with you guys? 492 00:24:58,118 --> 00:25:01,595 - Yeah, he even wore certain undershirts 493 00:25:01,630 --> 00:25:04,633 that would make him look like he was wearing garments. 494 00:25:04,668 --> 00:25:07,349 - The people who he interacted with at church 495 00:25:07,384 --> 00:25:10,030 had no idea of what he was doing at home, 496 00:25:10,065 --> 00:25:11,679 but because the leadership knew 497 00:25:11,714 --> 00:25:13,259 and didn't do anything about it, 498 00:25:13,294 --> 00:25:15,557 he was able to form those bonds and friendships 499 00:25:15,592 --> 00:25:17,568 - under false pretenses. - Yeah. 500 00:25:17,603 --> 00:25:19,866 They had no idea that they were friends 501 00:25:19,901 --> 00:25:22,129 with a pedophile who could potentially 502 00:25:22,164 --> 00:25:23,530 harm their children. 503 00:25:23,565 --> 00:25:25,837 Your dad's already excommunicated, 504 00:25:25,872 --> 00:25:27,926 but you're not allowed to talk about it. 505 00:25:27,961 --> 00:25:30,920 They reinforced to you as the victim and child 506 00:25:30,955 --> 00:25:33,532 a code of silence to protect him. 507 00:25:33,567 --> 00:25:35,499 Oh, absolutely, yes. 508 00:25:35,534 --> 00:25:37,927 Which would make, I mean, if I were in your position, 509 00:25:37,962 --> 00:25:41,252 like, more reluctant to say it hasn't stopped. 510 00:25:41,287 --> 00:25:44,543 The excommunication didn't scare him straight. 511 00:25:44,578 --> 00:25:46,161 It took her a long time, 512 00:25:46,196 --> 00:25:49,504 but my mom started questioning that message. 513 00:25:53,639 --> 00:25:56,076 There was a lot of shifts in dynamics in our family. 514 00:25:56,111 --> 00:25:58,513 One of the times was when online chat rooms 515 00:25:58,548 --> 00:25:59,732 became really popular. 516 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,172 My mom started chatting in these chat rooms, 517 00:26:05,207 --> 00:26:08,749 and with that, you know, veil of anonymity, 518 00:26:08,784 --> 00:26:12,092 she was able to talk about what was going on at home. 519 00:26:12,127 --> 00:26:13,972 People were validating her, finally, 520 00:26:14,007 --> 00:26:16,923 validating her thoughts of this is not right. 521 00:26:16,958 --> 00:26:18,411 This is horrible. 522 00:26:18,446 --> 00:26:22,894 And really being horrified by what she was saying, 523 00:26:22,929 --> 00:26:28,238 and I don't know that she really expected that reaction. 524 00:26:28,273 --> 00:26:30,684 But I don't give her a lot of grace 525 00:26:30,719 --> 00:26:34,570 for this time period because she left us 526 00:26:34,605 --> 00:26:38,422 alone with him so she could figure it out. 527 00:26:38,457 --> 00:26:41,303 - So she left? - Yeah. 528 00:26:41,338 --> 00:26:45,298 Our mom had left us there with my dad 529 00:26:45,333 --> 00:26:48,754 and had gone to Ireland to meet someone 530 00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:52,175 that she had met in one of the chat rooms. 531 00:26:52,210 --> 00:26:54,586 At that time, she wasn't thinking 532 00:26:54,621 --> 00:26:56,928 about how we had been feeling. 533 00:26:56,963 --> 00:27:00,575 She only was reflecting on how she had been treated 534 00:27:00,610 --> 00:27:02,411 and how she was feeling, 535 00:27:02,446 --> 00:27:05,371 and so she kind of abandoned us. 536 00:27:05,406 --> 00:27:08,766 That's the summer that Liz and I got really close 537 00:27:08,801 --> 00:27:12,631 and protected each other to the best of our ability. 538 00:27:12,666 --> 00:27:16,722 As a 13-year-old and a 17-year-old, yeah. 539 00:27:16,757 --> 00:27:19,568 So how did it eventually stop? 540 00:27:19,603 --> 00:27:22,344 As I got older, the abuse changed. 541 00:27:22,379 --> 00:27:26,079 The risk of pregnancy was enough of a deterrent 542 00:27:26,114 --> 00:27:27,611 to stop the rape. 543 00:27:27,646 --> 00:27:29,735 My abuse turned to a more mental 544 00:27:29,770 --> 00:27:31,745 and emotional sexual abuse. 545 00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:36,524 And the abuse definitely changed for my sister. 546 00:27:55,151 --> 00:27:59,599 I did have one instance of sexual abuse, 547 00:27:59,634 --> 00:28:03,647 and it was that same summer that my mom left. 548 00:28:03,682 --> 00:28:06,946 When my mom came back, the dynamic had shifted a lot. 549 00:28:06,981 --> 00:28:10,210 I don't know what happened to her while she was gone, 550 00:28:10,245 --> 00:28:13,866 but when she came back, she said, we're leaving. 551 00:28:13,901 --> 00:28:15,798 She decided to take us to Utah because 552 00:28:15,833 --> 00:28:17,661 she wanted to be around Mormons. 553 00:28:17,696 --> 00:28:19,828 - Let's go where Mormons are... - Go to the motherland. 554 00:28:19,863 --> 00:28:21,447 And they'll help us. 555 00:28:21,482 --> 00:28:24,419 Even after years of being kind of dismissed 556 00:28:24,454 --> 00:28:27,322 and told to put up, shut up, and do better, 557 00:28:27,357 --> 00:28:30,578 she still went to the church for safety and support. 558 00:28:30,613 --> 00:28:32,711 - Yeah. - It's her first call. 559 00:28:32,746 --> 00:28:35,679 I understand that. 560 00:28:35,714 --> 00:28:38,586 - I got pregnant with my son when I was 18, 561 00:28:38,621 --> 00:28:40,988 and I was out here in Utah 562 00:28:41,023 --> 00:28:43,199 trying to make it work with his dad. 563 00:28:43,234 --> 00:28:45,210 It was a turning point for me. 564 00:28:45,245 --> 00:28:49,423 I still had a communicative relationship with my dad. 565 00:28:49,458 --> 00:28:51,730 Like we weren't friends. 566 00:28:51,765 --> 00:28:53,479 Like I didn't-I- 567 00:28:53,514 --> 00:28:55,625 But I still talked to him. 568 00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:57,701 I still saw him as my dad. 569 00:28:57,736 --> 00:29:02,958 When I had my son, and I felt so much joy and so much love, 570 00:29:02,993 --> 00:29:05,874 I felt what a parent is supposed 571 00:29:05,909 --> 00:29:07,571 to feel for their child. 572 00:29:07,606 --> 00:29:10,539 And in that moment, 573 00:29:10,574 --> 00:29:12,750 I knew I could never talk to him again. 574 00:29:12,785 --> 00:29:14,892 The only time I ever talked to him again 575 00:29:14,927 --> 00:29:18,112 after that was for my criminal case against him. 576 00:29:18,147 --> 00:29:21,368 So how do you go about reporting something like that? 577 00:29:21,403 --> 00:29:25,502 Well, I thought of all of the years of abuse, 578 00:29:25,537 --> 00:29:28,557 the place where it happened the most 579 00:29:28,592 --> 00:29:30,899 because we lived there the longest was California. 580 00:29:30,934 --> 00:29:32,474 OK. 581 00:29:32,509 --> 00:29:35,686 And so I called the San Diego Police Department, 582 00:29:35,721 --> 00:29:38,946 and I made a report with a detective. 583 00:29:38,981 --> 00:29:42,136 He asked me for some instances of abuse. 584 00:29:42,171 --> 00:29:45,696 I gave him maybe, you know, three or four memories. 585 00:29:45,731 --> 00:29:47,838 - I've got hundreds. - Yeah. 586 00:29:47,873 --> 00:29:53,052 You know, just the tone of horror and anger that this man 587 00:29:53,087 --> 00:29:57,796 who I'd never met before had for me and our family, 588 00:29:57,831 --> 00:30:00,799 it was- um, it was very validating, 589 00:30:00,834 --> 00:30:04,332 and it was a shock. 590 00:30:04,367 --> 00:30:07,218 Like seeing through a clear lens for the first time. 591 00:30:07,253 --> 00:30:10,510 Yeah, all these other men knew these exact same things. 592 00:30:10,545 --> 00:30:13,614 How is this the first person who's showing any sense 593 00:30:13,649 --> 00:30:16,684 of this isn't right and something needs to be done? 594 00:30:18,947 --> 00:30:21,306 During the investigation, I had worked 595 00:30:21,341 --> 00:30:25,301 with the police department to call him and record it. 596 00:30:25,336 --> 00:30:27,173 ♪ ♪ 597 00:31:32,629 --> 00:31:35,293 ♪ ♪ 598 00:31:35,328 --> 00:31:38,157 I basically got a recorded confession. 599 00:31:38,192 --> 00:31:41,308 And from there, it went pretty quickly. 600 00:31:41,343 --> 00:31:44,428 I made my report mid-August probably. 601 00:31:44,463 --> 00:31:47,514 And by mid-December, he was arrested. 602 00:31:47,549 --> 00:31:49,002 Are you serious? 603 00:31:49,037 --> 00:31:52,911 Can you just put it right up here? 604 00:31:52,946 --> 00:31:55,617 Oh, my gosh. 605 00:31:55,652 --> 00:31:59,230 It took me becoming an adult to advocate for myself 606 00:31:59,265 --> 00:32:04,748 and finally, you know, do what all of the priesthood leaders 607 00:32:04,783 --> 00:32:08,587 and my mom didn't do. 608 00:32:08,622 --> 00:32:12,343 For 21 years, people knew what this man was doing- 609 00:32:12,378 --> 00:32:16,029 bishops, stake presidents, men that know better. 610 00:32:16,064 --> 00:32:20,590 You told one detective, and he was arrested within six months. 611 00:32:20,625 --> 00:32:22,079 - Yeah. - Yeah. 612 00:32:22,114 --> 00:32:24,681 What was his sentence? And is he still in jail? 613 00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:26,213 32 years. 614 00:32:26,248 --> 00:32:30,252 But he was released after about 151/2 years. 615 00:32:30,287 --> 00:32:32,654 He finished his parole in 2023, 616 00:32:32,689 --> 00:32:36,606 and he was rearrested for child sexual abuse materials, 617 00:32:36,641 --> 00:32:39,909 - a lot of them. - Shut up. 618 00:32:39,944 --> 00:32:43,178 Yeah, so he's back in prison. 619 00:32:43,213 --> 00:32:44,362 Mm-hmm. 620 00:32:44,397 --> 00:32:46,190 I hope he dies there. 621 00:32:46,225 --> 00:32:48,444 Because if he dies there, that means that 622 00:32:48,479 --> 00:32:50,359 he won't be a danger- 623 00:32:50,394 --> 00:32:54,198 To anyone else. 624 00:32:54,233 --> 00:32:56,757 Is that when you started to look at the church's role 625 00:32:56,792 --> 00:32:59,246 in protecting him? 626 00:32:59,281 --> 00:33:00,848 That wasn't for many years. 627 00:33:00,883 --> 00:33:02,597 ♪ ♪ 628 00:33:02,632 --> 00:33:07,376 The criminal charges were filed against my dad in 2004. 629 00:33:07,411 --> 00:33:12,551 I did not look into filing a civil lawsuit 630 00:33:12,586 --> 00:33:17,656 against the church for their role until 2020. 631 00:33:17,691 --> 00:33:21,608 I wouldn't even consider it for a very long time. 632 00:33:21,643 --> 00:33:23,740 Like, no, the church was just doing 633 00:33:23,775 --> 00:33:25,794 what they thought was right. 634 00:33:25,829 --> 00:33:30,638 The church professes to have a direct line to God 635 00:33:30,673 --> 00:33:35,448 and to know information and to have access to God 636 00:33:35,483 --> 00:33:38,720 that members don't have. 637 00:33:38,755 --> 00:33:42,368 What on earth could I possibly know more than these men? 638 00:33:42,403 --> 00:33:44,683 As soon as you start to feel like maybe 639 00:33:44,718 --> 00:33:48,635 the leaders of the church didn't do the right thing- 640 00:33:48,670 --> 00:33:50,219 That critical, little bit critical- 641 00:33:50,254 --> 00:33:51,768 Yeah, a little bit critical, exactly. 642 00:33:51,803 --> 00:33:54,040 Then that instantly comes in. 643 00:33:54,075 --> 00:33:55,781 Well, I can't criticize the church. 644 00:33:55,816 --> 00:33:57,905 - Right, absolutely not. - That's because- 645 00:33:57,940 --> 00:33:59,219 Well, it's the covenant we make 646 00:33:59,254 --> 00:34:00,603 - in order to attend the temple. - Yeah. 647 00:34:00,638 --> 00:34:01,952 And it's not even a conscious thing. 648 00:34:01,987 --> 00:34:03,484 Yep. 649 00:34:03,519 --> 00:34:08,046 It's instantly, you know, I would think, 650 00:34:08,081 --> 00:34:09,273 shouldn't they have done more? 651 00:34:09,308 --> 00:34:10,839 And then I would be like, I need to read 652 00:34:10,874 --> 00:34:12,224 my scriptures more because I must be missing something... 653 00:34:12,259 --> 00:34:13,743 - Yeah. - The way it is. 654 00:34:13,778 --> 00:34:15,192 It's run by Jesus Christ. 655 00:34:15,227 --> 00:34:17,063 So who wants to give notes to Jesus Christ? 656 00:34:17,098 --> 00:34:19,057 Exactly, if you're Jesus, I'm not going to tell you 657 00:34:19,092 --> 00:34:20,545 - you're wrong. - Yeah. 658 00:34:20,580 --> 00:34:22,059 I'm not going to be like, hey, 659 00:34:22,094 --> 00:34:23,404 man, that was a bad decision. 660 00:34:23,439 --> 00:34:24,816 Like, go back and rethink that. 661 00:34:24,851 --> 00:34:26,023 Are you sure? Are you sure? 662 00:34:26,058 --> 00:34:27,195 - Absolutely not. - Yeah. 663 00:34:27,230 --> 00:34:28,379 - No. - Exactly. 664 00:34:28,414 --> 00:34:30,468 OK, and then you align yourself 665 00:34:30,503 --> 00:34:32,613 to that decision no matter what it is. 666 00:34:32,648 --> 00:34:34,724 And lean not unto our own understanding 667 00:34:34,759 --> 00:34:37,562 but unto his and unto the Lord. 668 00:34:37,597 --> 00:34:40,086 And I believe that was my mom's outlook. 669 00:34:40,121 --> 00:34:44,604 Her outlook was they are direct conduits of God. 670 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:49,087 So whatever decision they make, that is the decision 671 00:34:49,122 --> 00:34:50,618 - that God would make. - Mm-hmm. 672 00:34:50,653 --> 00:34:53,091 Well, that was your mom's conduit because that's 673 00:34:53,126 --> 00:34:54,701 what we were taught still today. 674 00:34:54,736 --> 00:34:56,189 Yeah, yeah. 675 00:34:56,224 --> 00:34:59,793 Never mind that he's, you know, abusive and, you know, 676 00:34:59,828 --> 00:35:01,969 harming you and your children. 677 00:35:05,277 --> 00:35:12,379 ♪ ♪ 678 00:35:12,414 --> 00:35:14,555 She got to be in it today! 679 00:35:14,590 --> 00:35:18,942 - There was a moment where I looked at myself as a child 680 00:35:18,977 --> 00:35:21,084 as a separate entity. 681 00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:23,947 I could recognize that what was done 682 00:35:23,982 --> 00:35:26,785 to her was not right. 683 00:35:26,820 --> 00:35:29,431 And so I thought, you know, I might not be able 684 00:35:29,466 --> 00:35:30,876 to do anything about it. 685 00:35:30,911 --> 00:35:35,220 I might not be able to make them take me seriously, 686 00:35:35,255 --> 00:35:37,361 but I want to try. 687 00:35:37,396 --> 00:35:39,180 So that's when I contacted a lawyer. 688 00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:43,193 One of the things that I hoped to come out 689 00:35:43,228 --> 00:35:48,494 of the lawsuit with the church was some accountability. 690 00:35:48,529 --> 00:35:52,202 Even just an acknowledgment- 691 00:35:52,237 --> 00:35:54,987 you know, we did have a responsibility, 692 00:35:55,022 --> 00:35:58,556 and, you know, we didn't do the right thing. 693 00:35:58,591 --> 00:36:01,681 Let's make sure we do the right thing from here on out. 694 00:36:01,716 --> 00:36:04,597 That didn't happen, but we went through mediation 695 00:36:04,632 --> 00:36:06,346 and came to a settlement. 696 00:36:06,381 --> 00:36:11,843 It definitely felt very dehumanizing 697 00:36:11,878 --> 00:36:17,270 and humiliating to hear my trauma 698 00:36:17,305 --> 00:36:20,025 - being talked about in... - Terms of dollar amount. 699 00:36:20,060 --> 00:36:22,745 In terms of money, but then also being haggled over. 700 00:36:22,780 --> 00:36:24,799 The attorney from Kirton McConkie 701 00:36:24,834 --> 00:36:27,794 that did my deposition had the most smug face. 702 00:36:27,829 --> 00:36:30,140 Did they offer any explanation 703 00:36:30,175 --> 00:36:32,416 for things that the church- 704 00:36:32,451 --> 00:36:34,235 No, the church has no responsibility. 705 00:36:34,270 --> 00:36:35,797 And that was their official statement. 706 00:36:35,832 --> 00:36:37,325 - That was their whole point. - That was. 707 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,639 The church has no responsibility. 708 00:36:38,674 --> 00:36:40,154 Mom should have done something. Why didn't she? 709 00:36:40,189 --> 00:36:41,460 Yeah, they threw her under the bus. 710 00:36:41,495 --> 00:36:42,939 - They really did. - Big time. 711 00:36:42,974 --> 00:36:45,168 They really did. 712 00:36:45,203 --> 00:36:46,908 But I don't think the thought ever 713 00:36:46,943 --> 00:36:52,993 entered her mind that the church had done anything wrong. 714 00:36:53,028 --> 00:36:55,038 - Yep. - She still grapples with it. 715 00:36:55,073 --> 00:36:56,135 Yep. 716 00:36:56,170 --> 00:36:57,606 We're trained to think this way. 717 00:36:57,641 --> 00:36:59,042 This is what you're bred into. 718 00:36:59,077 --> 00:37:00,618 It's conditioning. 719 00:37:00,653 --> 00:37:03,155 I still struggle to deconstruct it right now. 720 00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:05,468 Like, there has to be an explanation for this. 721 00:37:05,503 --> 00:37:07,712 You know, the people that I went to church with 722 00:37:07,747 --> 00:37:11,228 cared about children and would never turn a blind eye. 723 00:37:11,263 --> 00:37:14,710 But the truth is, as much as they may care about children, 724 00:37:14,745 --> 00:37:16,756 they care about the church more. 725 00:37:16,791 --> 00:37:18,244 Yes. 726 00:37:18,279 --> 00:37:19,802 And I think that's hard for people to understand. 727 00:37:19,837 --> 00:37:21,943 Like our allegiance to the church, 728 00:37:21,978 --> 00:37:24,503 which we also say is our allegiance to God, 729 00:37:24,538 --> 00:37:26,121 is the strongest. 730 00:37:26,156 --> 00:37:28,985 So any other directive is less important. 731 00:37:29,020 --> 00:37:30,517 That's what it felt like. 732 00:37:30,552 --> 00:37:33,555 And that's why I'm not going to shut up about it still. 733 00:37:33,590 --> 00:37:35,988 Like, OK, cool. You gave me a settlement. 734 00:37:36,023 --> 00:37:38,923 - That means jack shit to me. - Yeah. 735 00:37:38,958 --> 00:37:41,824 Like my story, our story, is important. 736 00:37:41,859 --> 00:37:45,663 Your role in our abuse is real, 737 00:37:45,698 --> 00:37:49,092 and it needs to fucking change so that other children 738 00:37:49,127 --> 00:37:51,146 are not hurt the same way that we were. 739 00:37:51,181 --> 00:37:54,715 I have mixed feelings about the Church today. 740 00:37:54,750 --> 00:37:58,798 There is a lot of good in the people of the church, 741 00:37:58,833 --> 00:38:01,983 but the corporation of the Church 742 00:38:02,018 --> 00:38:04,247 of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 743 00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:10,810 is harmful, deceitful, and I do see it as evil. 744 00:38:10,845 --> 00:38:12,290 I have removed the church's control 745 00:38:12,325 --> 00:38:13,734 and influence from my life, 746 00:38:13,769 --> 00:38:15,901 and it's taken a lot to get here. 747 00:38:15,936 --> 00:38:17,999 But my life is actually beautiful. 748 00:38:18,034 --> 00:38:21,046 - The Church has this very planned-out 749 00:38:21,081 --> 00:38:24,824 future for everyone, and outside it's so much messier. 750 00:38:24,859 --> 00:38:29,097 And I've preferred that, honestly. 751 00:38:29,132 --> 00:38:33,223 We have wanted to talk about this publicly for years 752 00:38:33,258 --> 00:38:37,310 and have not been able to find an avenue to do that. 753 00:38:37,345 --> 00:38:41,362 It feels like a constant reminder of no one listened. 754 00:38:41,397 --> 00:38:43,677 - And you're listening. - I am. 755 00:38:43,712 --> 00:38:47,368 - I'm listening. - And that feels huge. 756 00:38:47,403 --> 00:38:48,682 You're both remarkable. 757 00:38:48,717 --> 00:38:50,850 I'm so glad you have each other. 758 00:38:50,885 --> 00:38:52,164 As a mom of daughters, 759 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:54,601 your sisterly bond means a lot to me. 760 00:38:54,636 --> 00:38:56,429 I know your story is going to change lives, 761 00:38:56,464 --> 00:38:59,728 and I'm really grateful to you guys for sharing it with me. 762 00:39:08,955 --> 00:39:13,829 I just- I feel really, like, heavy. 763 00:39:16,745 --> 00:39:21,454 ♪ ♪ 764 00:39:21,489 --> 00:39:23,448 Something shifted in my conversation 765 00:39:23,483 --> 00:39:24,797 with Lizzie and Jennie. 766 00:39:24,832 --> 00:39:31,464 ♪ ♪ 767 00:39:31,499 --> 00:39:34,611 I'm terrified of the word cult. 768 00:39:34,646 --> 00:39:37,688 If we could have a conversation 769 00:39:37,723 --> 00:39:42,257 around cult techniques and cult behavior, 770 00:39:42,292 --> 00:39:45,644 and if it didn't eradicate the beautiful parts 771 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:48,612 of my childhood and the wonderful things 772 00:39:48,647 --> 00:39:52,607 my parents did for me, I would just say it easily. 773 00:39:52,642 --> 00:39:55,836 You know, my parents were in a cult. 774 00:39:55,871 --> 00:39:58,970 They raised our entire family in this cult, 775 00:39:59,005 --> 00:40:03,574 and it's really, really, really hard to get out of. 776 00:40:03,609 --> 00:40:08,144 And it doesn't mean that my childhood was tainted 777 00:40:08,179 --> 00:40:10,285 or that my parents were bad people, 778 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,151 or that my family didn't have real love and real experiences. 779 00:40:15,186 --> 00:40:19,852 But I was raised in a cult. 780 00:40:24,726 --> 00:40:26,728 Final thoughts, take one A and B marker. 781 00:40:26,763 --> 00:40:29,992 Oh, now I know what this scene is. 782 00:40:30,027 --> 00:40:32,786 Well, no fucking pressure. 783 00:40:32,821 --> 00:40:34,832 I'll tell you my final thoughts. 784 00:40:34,867 --> 00:40:38,087 They're not going to be what you think 785 00:40:38,122 --> 00:40:41,439 my final thoughts are. 786 00:40:46,748 --> 00:40:48,976 - I've been really toying with this why me. 787 00:40:49,011 --> 00:40:51,100 This whole time, you know, in every conversation, 788 00:40:51,135 --> 00:40:54,155 I'm just thinking, why me? 789 00:40:54,190 --> 00:40:56,549 The why me really made sense today, 790 00:40:56,584 --> 00:40:58,891 and it kind of answered that question for me. 791 00:40:58,926 --> 00:41:01,302 You can shine your light on stories 792 00:41:01,337 --> 00:41:03,643 and create visibility for people, 793 00:41:03,678 --> 00:41:06,942 and the effect of that change can be significant. 794 00:41:06,977 --> 00:41:08,335 Change could happen. 795 00:41:10,990 --> 00:41:14,036 I'm hearing these stories for the first time, 796 00:41:14,071 --> 00:41:17,083 and they change the way that I view myself. 797 00:41:17,118 --> 00:41:19,267 And I'm sorry. 798 00:41:19,302 --> 00:41:21,008 You don't need to apologize. 799 00:41:21,043 --> 00:41:27,180 - And definitely the church that I dedicated my life to. 800 00:41:27,215 --> 00:41:30,183 Giving victims a platform and an opportunity 801 00:41:30,218 --> 00:41:32,933 to tell their stories is, I think, 802 00:41:32,968 --> 00:41:36,276 the biggest act of resistance that you could do. 803 00:41:36,311 --> 00:41:38,069 These stories should be heard, 804 00:41:38,104 --> 00:41:40,498 and the church is never going to hear them, 805 00:41:40,533 --> 00:41:43,248 but the world can. 806 00:41:43,283 --> 00:41:46,025 Can you just put it right up here? 807 00:41:47,592 --> 00:41:50,072 - And that's who they should put their faith in now, 808 00:41:50,107 --> 00:41:52,553 these victims put their faith into the church 809 00:41:52,588 --> 00:41:54,564 and those institutions for years, 810 00:41:54,599 --> 00:41:57,384 and now I think they should put their faith into humanity 811 00:41:57,419 --> 00:41:59,220 and let their stories be heard. 812 00:41:59,255 --> 00:42:02,520 And I hope the world responds with, like, kindness 813 00:42:02,555 --> 00:42:06,706 and support and love and outrage. 814 00:42:06,741 --> 00:42:09,317 For every story that's on FLOODLIT, 815 00:42:09,352 --> 00:42:14,227 there are 1,000 others that have just never come forward. 816 00:42:14,262 --> 00:42:16,063 This is the beginning of a reckoning. 817 00:42:16,098 --> 00:42:18,927 This is the beginning of a movement where people 818 00:42:18,962 --> 00:42:21,926 see that they can come forward, 819 00:42:21,961 --> 00:42:24,855 and their abuse can be validated. 820 00:42:24,890 --> 00:42:27,379 I feel like I've seen, and I trust myself 821 00:42:27,414 --> 00:42:30,199 enough to know that, even if everyone around me 822 00:42:30,234 --> 00:42:32,898 is saying that the sky is black, to me, 823 00:42:32,933 --> 00:42:35,561 it's crystal blue, 824 00:42:35,596 --> 00:42:39,034 and it's so clear what needs to be done. 825 00:42:39,069 --> 00:42:46,868 ♪ ♪ 826 00:42:47,086 --> 00:42:49,719 To all my 827 00:42:49,754 --> 00:42:52,380 bad Mormons. 828 00:42:52,415 --> 00:42:54,972 ♪ ♪ 829 00:42:55,007 --> 00:42:56,669 I'm starting to gather personal stories 830 00:42:56,704 --> 00:42:59,924 from people who would like to share them in some way. 831 00:42:59,959 --> 00:43:03,145 We will use this platform to shine a light on things 832 00:43:03,180 --> 00:43:05,191 that I, as a lifelong member of the church, 833 00:43:05,226 --> 00:43:07,550 never knew existed. 834 00:43:07,585 --> 00:43:11,414 My mission was one of the most damaging 835 00:43:11,449 --> 00:43:12,685 experiences of my life. 836 00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:14,992 There's so many effects from that that 837 00:43:15,027 --> 00:43:19,466 I'm still trying to get over and work through. 838 00:43:19,501 --> 00:43:23,905 I started getting dozens of, like, texts, calls. 839 00:43:23,940 --> 00:43:25,916 We had a car follow us. 840 00:43:25,951 --> 00:43:29,258 My dad would tell me, like, you need to go get your mom 841 00:43:29,293 --> 00:43:31,095 and bring her home to us. 842 00:43:31,130 --> 00:43:33,532 Our eternal family depends on it. 843 00:43:33,567 --> 00:43:36,352 He took me to multiple polygamist settlements. 844 00:43:36,387 --> 00:43:39,138 They wanted to give our son up for adoption 845 00:43:39,173 --> 00:43:40,887 to a worthy temple. 846 00:43:40,922 --> 00:43:42,280 - To my older brother. - Yeah. 847 00:43:42,315 --> 00:43:44,230 It's crazy. And it goes so high up. 848 00:43:44,265 --> 00:43:45,588 It goes into politics. 849 00:43:45,623 --> 00:43:47,059 I mean, it's just a whole big thing. 850 00:43:47,094 --> 00:43:48,495 I don't know where I'm supposed to go 851 00:43:48,530 --> 00:43:52,116 or what I'm supposed to do. 852 00:43:52,151 --> 00:43:55,458 I haven't really had many people to talk to. 853 00:44:07,775 --> 00:44:15,304 ♪ ♪ 854 00:44:22,921 --> 00:44:25,554 I just got this text from somebody 855 00:44:25,589 --> 00:44:28,890 that wants to remain totally anonymous 856 00:44:28,925 --> 00:44:32,191 and sent a different name, but that he's a 857 00:44:32,226 --> 00:44:36,021 sex worker for Mormon leadership. 858 00:44:36,056 --> 00:44:38,292 I'm a high-end gay escort. 859 00:44:38,327 --> 00:44:40,329 A lot of the Mormon leadership who run the organization 860 00:44:40,364 --> 00:44:41,731 are my clients. 861 00:44:41,766 --> 00:44:43,167 I'm not just talking about bishops 862 00:44:43,202 --> 00:44:45,552 or stake presidents, temple presidents, 863 00:44:45,587 --> 00:44:47,902 and, yes, even general authorities. 864 00:44:47,937 --> 00:44:49,512 I don't believe this. 865 00:44:50,818 --> 00:44:53,734 A general authority of the church 866 00:44:53,769 --> 00:44:56,519 using a high-end gay escort? 867 00:44:56,554 --> 00:44:58,008 That's like an exposé. 868 00:44:58,043 --> 00:45:01,046 That's "National Enquirer" shit, you know? 869 00:45:01,081 --> 00:45:03,674 They come to me because I create a safe space 870 00:45:03,709 --> 00:45:06,268 for the leaders to feel love and acceptance, 871 00:45:06,303 --> 00:45:08,018 and then they go back to church 872 00:45:08,053 --> 00:45:10,098 and teach homophobia from the pulpit. 873 00:45:10,133 --> 00:45:13,379 They are causing great harm. 874 00:45:13,414 --> 00:45:16,591 For me, it's an emergency. 875 00:45:16,626 --> 00:45:18,332 Hearing all of these stories 876 00:45:18,367 --> 00:45:20,217 from people all over the world, 877 00:45:20,252 --> 00:45:22,032 If I get really angry about it, 878 00:45:22,067 --> 00:45:24,308 the church is just not going to listen to me 879 00:45:24,343 --> 00:45:26,549 and label me a heretic, apostate, crazy person. 880 00:45:26,584 --> 00:45:29,700 So I have to follow their lead 881 00:45:29,735 --> 00:45:32,817 in terms of the level of action. 882 00:45:32,852 --> 00:45:33,913 I'm just going to say, 883 00:45:33,948 --> 00:45:36,916 are you willing to meet with me? 884 00:45:36,951 --> 00:45:42,087 I never thought I'd be in this position ever, ever.