1
00:00:35,642 --> 00:00:36,894
Okay, nice and quiet.

2
00:00:41,148 --> 00:00:42,566
All right, let's roll sound.

3
00:00:45,318 --> 00:00:46,402
- Roll camera.
- Scene one, take one.

4
00:00:47,195 --> 00:00:48,154
Roll it.

5
00:00:51,116 --> 00:00:52,158
Set.

6
00:00:52,242 --> 00:00:53,284
And set.

7
00:02:17,111 --> 00:02:19,155
I guess a phone call
wakes me up.

8
00:02:19,238 --> 00:02:20,865
Oh, the alarm didn't go off?

9
00:02:20,949 --> 00:02:23,576
I think I just slept
through the alarm.

10
00:02:23,659 --> 00:02:25,619
I set it for 8:30,
because at 9:00

11
00:02:25,703 --> 00:02:28,372
Jacqueline de Mornay
from Elle Magazine was coming.

12
00:02:30,708 --> 00:02:33,418
She was staying
at the Chelsea,

13
00:02:33,502 --> 00:02:35,378
and her English
was not too good.

14
00:02:36,421 --> 00:02:38,924
And she was coming
for pictures of Lauren Hutton.

15
00:02:40,383 --> 00:02:42,802
So it's 9:00 and the phone rings

16
00:02:42,885 --> 00:02:44,429
and it's Jacqueline,
and she says,

17
00:02:44,512 --> 00:02:46,138
"Is it okay to come
in 20 minutes?"

18
00:02:46,222 --> 00:02:49,308
And I say, "Yes, it's perfect."
And I hop out of bed.

19
00:02:49,391 --> 00:02:53,187
I put the coffee water on and,
and the phone rings again

20
00:02:53,270 --> 00:02:55,189
and it was Susan Sontag.

21
00:02:55,272 --> 00:02:56,565
She said, "Are you awake?"

22
00:02:56,648 --> 00:02:58,734
And then she heard the radio
and said, "Oh yeah."

23
00:03:00,569 --> 00:03:02,988
She said, "I want to go
see your show today."

24
00:03:03,071 --> 00:03:05,865
She said, "I'm sure it's good."

25
00:03:05,949 --> 00:03:08,493
That she couldn't imagine it
not being.

26
00:03:08,576 --> 00:03:10,661
And that she was going
to Paris either today

27
00:03:10,745 --> 00:03:11,954
or tomorrow
and she might not make it

28
00:03:12,037 --> 00:03:13,122
to the show.

29
00:03:13,205 --> 00:03:15,540
So I told her about the guy
from the gallery calling

30
00:03:15,625 --> 00:03:17,167
and asking,
did I know Max Kozlov

31
00:03:17,251 --> 00:03:18,627
or Susan Sontag?

32
00:03:18,710 --> 00:03:20,295
Why?

33
00:03:20,379 --> 00:03:22,672
Actually, what I told her
was a lie.

34
00:03:22,756 --> 00:03:23,965
I'll tell you
the other version.

35
00:03:24,048 --> 00:03:27,135
It was only a slight altering,
but it did reveal something.

36
00:03:27,218 --> 00:03:29,220
You-- you mean he didn't
mention her name?

37
00:03:29,303 --> 00:03:30,096
Mm-mm.

38
00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,311
No, I guess I found myself
namedropping with him.

39
00:03:41,356 --> 00:03:47,362
Like uh, he called and said,
did I know Max Kozlov?

40
00:03:48,071 --> 00:03:50,282
And I said,
"No, I know who he is."

41
00:03:50,365 --> 00:03:52,867
And he said, "Do you know
how to get in touch with him?"

42
00:03:52,950 --> 00:03:54,243
And I said, "No."

43
00:03:55,703 --> 00:03:59,581
He's doing um, a photo magazine
and he wants somebody

44
00:03:59,665 --> 00:04:03,084
to write an introduction
or something.

45
00:04:03,168 --> 00:04:04,920
And I said,
"Well, I don't know Max Kozlov.

46
00:04:05,003 --> 00:04:06,922
Why don't you ask Susan Sontag?"

47
00:04:07,005 --> 00:04:09,174
And he said, "Oh, you know her?"
And I said, "Yes."

48
00:04:10,425 --> 00:04:12,510
That's what happened.
That's the way it happened.

49
00:04:12,593 --> 00:04:15,221
I don't uh-- I didn't want
to say that to Susan.

50
00:04:16,013 --> 00:04:19,099
Uh, and she said,
"No, I don't want to do it.

51
00:04:19,183 --> 00:04:21,310
I only write what I have to
or for friends."

52
00:04:21,393 --> 00:04:22,687
You're not a friend?

53
00:04:22,770 --> 00:04:25,230
Well, this wasn't for me.
This was for this magazine.

54
00:04:25,314 --> 00:04:27,066
She said it very sweetly.

55
00:04:27,149 --> 00:04:28,567
And I said,

56
00:04:28,650 --> 00:04:31,194
"Well, I wanted you to know,
because if you go

57
00:04:31,277 --> 00:04:33,988
to the gallery today
and this guy approaches you,

58
00:04:34,072 --> 00:04:35,073
I didn't bother calling you."

59
00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:37,200
And she said,
"I'm glad you didn't."

60
00:04:37,283 --> 00:04:39,118
And then she said a big kiss.

61
00:04:39,202 --> 00:04:40,828
There was no beginning
to that sentence.

62
00:04:42,288 --> 00:04:44,873
She said, I think sometimes
she even might have called me

63
00:04:44,957 --> 00:04:48,836
"darling", like a big kiss
and then a space

64
00:04:48,919 --> 00:04:50,212
and then darling.

65
00:04:50,295 --> 00:04:50,838
Goodbye.

66
00:04:56,676 --> 00:05:00,346
And then I get my coffee
and I go sit at my desk

67
00:05:00,429 --> 00:05:03,432
and it's not even 20 minutes
and there's a knock on the door

68
00:05:04,433 --> 00:05:06,102
and it's the Elle girl.

69
00:05:06,185 --> 00:05:09,938
Now somehow in this time
I've had the fantasy

70
00:05:10,021 --> 00:05:11,690
of being seduced
by the Elle girl.

71
00:05:13,108 --> 00:05:14,192
Had you met her?

72
00:05:14,275 --> 00:05:16,987
No, but that she was gonna
come in

73
00:05:17,070 --> 00:05:18,529
and it would be like
in a French movie

74
00:05:18,613 --> 00:05:19,780
and she would walk in
and be right

75
00:05:19,864 --> 00:05:20,781
in the middle of the floor.

76
00:05:20,865 --> 00:05:21,907
Hm.

77
00:05:21,991 --> 00:05:25,285
And she'd be very raunchy
and reach for my buttons.

78
00:05:26,496 --> 00:05:28,706
That was just one
of the fantasies I had.

79
00:05:31,166 --> 00:05:33,793
I thought it might be terrific
right then in the morning.

80
00:05:34,669 --> 00:05:35,879
Very French.

81
00:05:38,382 --> 00:05:40,925
So she comes in
and she's short.

82
00:05:41,009 --> 00:05:44,262
She's wearing this long cape
and she's very sort

83
00:05:44,345 --> 00:05:49,100
of that French chic,
not arty, but sort of almost.

84
00:05:49,183 --> 00:05:50,309
Mmhmm.

85
00:05:50,393 --> 00:05:53,061
And she comes in and she says,
"Hello, I'm Jacqueline."

86
00:05:54,146 --> 00:05:56,564
And uh, I say, "Hi, come in."

87
00:05:56,648 --> 00:05:58,316
And she says,
"Oh, you live here?

88
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,570
Ooh, this is your studio, too?
Very nice."

89
00:06:02,654 --> 00:06:05,197
Because somehow
she liked the place.

90
00:06:05,281 --> 00:06:08,284
Sometimes people come in
and say, "Did you just move in?"

91
00:06:08,367 --> 00:06:12,204
Or uh, "It'll be nice once
you get it fixed up."

92
00:06:13,622 --> 00:06:14,748
You want something to drink?

93
00:06:14,831 --> 00:06:17,125
No, and I say, "It is fixed up."

94
00:06:22,172 --> 00:06:23,381
And then I said,

95
00:06:23,464 --> 00:06:25,550
"These are the pictures
of Lauren Hutton."

96
00:06:25,633 --> 00:06:27,843
And she says,
"Oh, they're wonderful.

97
00:06:27,927 --> 00:06:29,554
They're not like
those of Avedon."

98
00:06:30,305 --> 00:06:31,764
Because Lauren Hutton
is beautiful,

99
00:06:31,847 --> 00:06:33,808
but she looks like a boy,
you know,

100
00:06:33,891 --> 00:06:35,726
in her Levi's and sneakers.

101
00:06:36,811 --> 00:06:38,896
And I say, "How much
are they going to pay?"

102
00:06:40,147 --> 00:06:42,316
And she said,
"Oh, I don't know."

103
00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:44,192
The article's gonna be
four pages

104
00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:45,527
and she doesn't know
whether they're gonna use

105
00:06:45,610 --> 00:06:48,029
one picture or four pictures.

106
00:06:48,112 --> 00:06:50,031
So I said,
"Well, what's your page rate?"

107
00:06:50,865 --> 00:06:53,826
And she doesn't know.
I almost got suspicious.

108
00:06:53,909 --> 00:06:58,246
I thought this could be some--
some fan of Lauren Hutton's

109
00:06:58,331 --> 00:07:00,458
who's doing this great scheme
to steal pictures

110
00:07:00,541 --> 00:07:01,584
of Lauren Hutton.

111
00:07:01,667 --> 00:07:02,960
What was she supposed to be,
an editor?

112
00:07:03,043 --> 00:07:04,252
Yeah.

113
00:07:04,336 --> 00:07:07,422
I wouldn't mind losing pictures
to someone who would...

114
00:07:07,505 --> 00:07:09,549
But I'd love to get money.
Four pages.

115
00:07:09,632 --> 00:07:10,800
Yeah.
That should be quite a lot.

116
00:07:10,883 --> 00:07:12,344
Could be a lot of money.

117
00:07:12,427 --> 00:07:14,345
Yeah, well, she should know
how much.

118
00:07:14,428 --> 00:07:15,680
Yeah, I would have thought
as an editor

119
00:07:15,763 --> 00:07:17,598
she should know how much,
especially as she was sent

120
00:07:17,681 --> 00:07:19,433
for the pictures.

121
00:07:19,516 --> 00:07:20,601
I'm really trying very hard

122
00:07:20,684 --> 00:07:22,853
to be a businessman
to some degree at least.

123
00:07:22,936 --> 00:07:24,145
I think you have every right
to know

124
00:07:24,230 --> 00:07:25,731
before you give her
the pictures.

125
00:07:25,814 --> 00:07:26,773
Yeah.

126
00:07:26,857 --> 00:07:29,109
I used to go
to the other extreme.

127
00:07:29,192 --> 00:07:30,401
And I would give them
the pictures

128
00:07:30,485 --> 00:07:32,195
and they would leave with them
and I wouldn't say anything

129
00:07:32,278 --> 00:07:33,404
about money.

130
00:07:33,488 --> 00:07:34,530
And I would hope

131
00:07:34,614 --> 00:07:36,907
that I would get a check or--
but I did ask her

132
00:07:36,991 --> 00:07:37,742
and she didn't know.

133
00:07:37,825 --> 00:07:39,326
And she said that she'd be back

134
00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:41,328
on the 7th of January
and that she'd call me.

135
00:07:41,411 --> 00:07:42,705
Where was she going?

136
00:07:42,788 --> 00:07:44,289
Back to France.

137
00:07:45,207 --> 00:07:47,001
On Susan's plane?

138
00:07:47,084 --> 00:07:48,043
I don't know.

139
00:07:48,127 --> 00:07:49,419
Yeah, the same plane.

140
00:07:52,213 --> 00:07:55,299
So then she took the pictures
and I said, "Okay",

141
00:07:55,383 --> 00:07:56,968
and she also.

142
00:07:57,051 --> 00:08:00,471
And then I said,
"Let me just write your name."

143
00:08:01,305 --> 00:08:04,475
And I got the name
as D-E capital M.

144
00:08:04,558 --> 00:08:07,060
And she said,
"No, not the big M."

145
00:08:07,144 --> 00:08:08,979
So then I put the pictures
in an envelope

146
00:08:09,062 --> 00:08:10,605
and she said goodbye,
and I said goodbye,

147
00:08:10,689 --> 00:08:11,564
and then she left.

148
00:08:11,648 --> 00:08:13,775
Never to be heard from again.

149
00:08:13,858 --> 00:08:15,693
I almost feel like
she was there less time

150
00:08:15,777 --> 00:08:17,362
than it took me
to tell the story.

151
00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,866
So I'm having my coffee
and I decided to figure out

152
00:08:21,949 --> 00:08:26,037
how much money is owed me,
because it's getting fuzzy.

153
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,748
So I added up all the definites
that I know that I'm getting.

154
00:08:29,831 --> 00:08:34,002
300 for this restaurant job,
but I apparently will get 450.

155
00:08:34,795 --> 00:08:37,923
So in one column I put
absolutely definite 300

156
00:08:38,006 --> 00:08:40,758
and in the other I put $450.

157
00:08:40,841 --> 00:08:41,759
Hopeful.

158
00:08:41,842 --> 00:08:44,011
It's very possible.

159
00:08:44,094 --> 00:08:47,848
And it came out to,
absolutely definite was $825.

160
00:08:47,932 --> 00:08:49,850
And that's not including
the Village Voice piece,

161
00:08:49,934 --> 00:08:51,643
but that still
could possibly happen.

162
00:08:51,726 --> 00:08:53,395
-I mean, it's due next week.
-Well, that is definite.

163
00:08:53,478 --> 00:08:55,189
Yeah.

164
00:08:55,272 --> 00:08:56,648
I mean, a week from today.

165
00:08:56,731 --> 00:08:57,732
Yeah, the next issue.

166
00:08:57,816 --> 00:08:59,317
How much of the tape
is gone already?

167
00:08:59,401 --> 00:09:00,985
Uh, a third.

168
00:09:01,736 --> 00:09:05,198
I don't know whether
to give more or less detail.

169
00:09:05,281 --> 00:09:06,324
It's good.

170
00:09:07,325 --> 00:09:08,284
Okay.

171
00:09:08,367 --> 00:09:09,327
So is it boring or?

172
00:09:09,410 --> 00:09:11,329
No, it's not boring to me.

173
00:09:11,412 --> 00:09:13,080
So then Bob Mony calls.

174
00:09:14,206 --> 00:09:15,082
He does indexing.

175
00:09:16,499 --> 00:09:19,002
But he's a piano player.
He plays the harpsichord.

176
00:09:19,086 --> 00:09:19,962
He's really so good.

177
00:09:20,045 --> 00:09:22,380
He does it like
six hours a day.

178
00:09:22,464 --> 00:09:23,756
He asks if I know Lily.

179
00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:25,091
Who?

180
00:09:25,174 --> 00:09:26,968
Lily, who used
to be Clydine Malleck.

181
00:09:27,051 --> 00:09:27,885
Oh, right.

182
00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:31,013
Paul gave her the name of Lily.

183
00:09:31,097 --> 00:09:32,473
-Paul did it?
-Hmm.

184
00:09:32,556 --> 00:09:33,765
I didn't know Paul did it.

185
00:09:33,849 --> 00:09:35,684
I thought some
great master did it.

186
00:09:35,767 --> 00:09:37,769
Oh no, this was no great master.

187
00:09:38,645 --> 00:09:42,608
I went there
for a gay men's weekend,

188
00:09:42,691 --> 00:09:44,359
and really,
it's an IBM modern religion.

189
00:09:44,442 --> 00:09:46,402
Did you see the ad they put
in the Voice with all bodies

190
00:09:46,486 --> 00:09:47,528
piled one on top of the other?

191
00:09:47,612 --> 00:09:48,779
All done in this kind
of Design Research way.

192
00:09:50,114 --> 00:09:52,533
It's really quite chic
with these beautiful brown rugs,

193
00:09:52,617 --> 00:09:56,453
no, green rugs
and brown walls,

194
00:09:56,536 --> 00:09:59,664
and uh,
these great bean bag chairs,

195
00:09:59,748 --> 00:10:01,375
and Design Research furniture,

196
00:10:01,458 --> 00:10:05,420
and nice tables,
and it's really quite affluent.

197
00:10:06,295 --> 00:10:08,131
I mean, it's not
in the least bit poor.

198
00:10:08,214 --> 00:10:08,673
-It's tacky.
-What?

199
00:10:08,757 --> 00:10:10,383
Tacky.

200
00:10:10,466 --> 00:10:12,176
It might be tacky
on a certain level.

201
00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:13,802
But it's affluent.

202
00:10:13,886 --> 00:10:15,554
In the sense
that they have money.

203
00:10:16,472 --> 00:10:18,181
We are about money.

204
00:10:18,266 --> 00:10:19,266
We are modern.

205
00:10:21,268 --> 00:10:27,232
Anyway, he wants to know
if I have Lily's phone number.

206
00:10:27,315 --> 00:10:29,442
Because Lily is going
to Rome to meet Paul.

207
00:10:29,526 --> 00:10:31,152
And she wanted
to go to Paul's house.

208
00:10:32,194 --> 00:10:33,405
Bob Mony is
a neighbor of Paul's.

209
00:10:33,488 --> 00:10:34,155
In New York?

210
00:10:34,238 --> 00:10:36,282
Yeah, his New York apartment.

211
00:10:36,365 --> 00:10:38,117
Alan Lloyd lives
across the hall

212
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:39,368
from Bob Mony's apartment.

213
00:10:39,451 --> 00:10:40,786
Yeah, I knew Alan was in there.

214
00:10:40,869 --> 00:10:43,080
Alan Lloyd has the keys
to Paul's apartment.

215
00:10:43,164 --> 00:10:44,248
Don't know where Alan was.

216
00:10:44,331 --> 00:10:47,918
Bob Mony thought that Alan was
at his Aunt Phoebe's.

217
00:10:48,001 --> 00:10:50,045
-I've heard that name before.
-Phoebe Lloyd.

218
00:10:50,128 --> 00:10:51,671
Yeah, I told you the weird
thing about that, didn't I?

219
00:10:51,755 --> 00:10:53,631
That-- that Linda Lloyd,
if she had a girl,

220
00:10:53,714 --> 00:10:56,217
she was gonna name
her Phoebe Lloyd.

221
00:10:56,301 --> 00:10:57,510
Anyway.

222
00:10:59,512 --> 00:11:04,224
I give him her home number
and her Arrica phone number.

223
00:11:04,767 --> 00:11:08,978
And how are things,
see ya, goodbye.

224
00:11:11,565 --> 00:11:13,900
At this point, my plan
is to go back to bed.

225
00:11:14,776 --> 00:11:15,944
What time is it about?

226
00:11:16,027 --> 00:11:17,946
About 10:15.

227
00:11:18,029 --> 00:11:20,156
I wanted to get rid
of that girl.

228
00:11:20,239 --> 00:11:22,116
And go back to sleep
until 11:30.

229
00:11:26,078 --> 00:11:27,746
Then Ed Baynard called.

230
00:11:27,830 --> 00:11:29,122
Did you go back to sleep?

231
00:11:29,206 --> 00:11:30,791
No, I was just about to.

232
00:11:31,875 --> 00:11:33,961
It was 10:15
and Ed Baynard calls.

233
00:11:34,044 --> 00:11:35,795
And he says, "Are you busy?"

234
00:11:36,504 --> 00:11:37,714
I say, "Yes."

235
00:11:38,590 --> 00:11:40,132
And he says, "Call me back."

236
00:11:41,175 --> 00:11:43,427
And I say,
"No, I have a minute."

237
00:11:44,345 --> 00:11:45,512
And he says, "Call me back."

238
00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:47,223
And I say,
"Now is the best time."

239
00:11:47,306 --> 00:11:48,432
And he says,
"We're not getting through

240
00:11:48,515 --> 00:11:49,516
to each other."

241
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,435
And I say, "No, I am busy, Ed.

242
00:11:51,518 --> 00:11:53,437
But I will be
much busier later."

243
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,063
And he says, "Are you working
in the darkroom?"

244
00:11:55,146 --> 00:11:56,022
And I say, "Yes."

245
00:11:56,106 --> 00:11:57,148
Oh, oh, oh,

246
00:11:57,232 --> 00:11:59,775
now I know every time
I call and you say--

247
00:11:59,860 --> 00:12:02,362
No, I really cannot stand
to talk to Ed Baynard.

248
00:12:02,987 --> 00:12:05,155
I can't get off the phone,
no one can.

249
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,783
He won't let you off,
he's the master of it.

250
00:12:08,493 --> 00:12:11,453
And he also doesn't listen.
He's totally insane.

251
00:12:12,913 --> 00:12:15,207
If this ever gets printed,
I hope it's printed

252
00:12:15,290 --> 00:12:16,041
with his name.

253
00:12:16,125 --> 00:12:17,834
What do you mean if? When.

254
00:12:18,668 --> 00:12:19,753
I mean this part.

255
00:12:19,836 --> 00:12:21,546
I really want you
to use real names.

256
00:12:24,340 --> 00:12:27,468
And he said, "Anyway,
well, three things."

257
00:12:27,551 --> 00:12:28,927
Does he always have a list?

258
00:12:29,012 --> 00:12:31,138
No, I guess he concised it.

259
00:12:31,222 --> 00:12:33,056
"Fred McDarrah is reviewing

260
00:12:33,140 --> 00:12:35,684
the gallery and I'm not
reviewing your show."

261
00:12:35,768 --> 00:12:37,978
You mean if Fred
was doing it instead?

262
00:12:38,854 --> 00:12:39,646
Yeah.

263
00:12:40,563 --> 00:12:42,357
And I said, "Oh."

264
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,235
And he said, "I think he's doing
it more reviewing the gallery."

265
00:12:45,318 --> 00:12:48,279
And I said, "Too bad,
'cause Ed Baynard was gonna

266
00:12:48,362 --> 00:12:50,865
review the show and not mention
Christopher Makos",

267
00:12:50,948 --> 00:12:52,449
which I thought was terrific.

268
00:12:52,533 --> 00:12:54,826
But I guess it is his show.

269
00:12:56,162 --> 00:12:58,330
Did I tell you they offered me
another show in January?

270
00:12:59,205 --> 00:13:00,999
She called me and said,
"Can you get a show together?"

271
00:13:01,082 --> 00:13:02,918
-And I said, "No."
-Oh, yeah?

272
00:13:03,001 --> 00:13:05,045
I don't want
to let any shit out.

273
00:13:05,128 --> 00:13:08,631
Well, you-- you have to decide,
you have to look around.

274
00:13:08,714 --> 00:13:10,633
I mean, in terms
of like a gallery,

275
00:13:12,134 --> 00:13:15,471
if I have a show,
I want it to be like,

276
00:13:17,264 --> 00:13:18,724
like the group of pictures.

277
00:13:19,892 --> 00:13:21,560
Which was, I think,
quite together.

278
00:13:23,645 --> 00:13:25,146
Whatever I do,
I think that was the best

279
00:13:25,230 --> 00:13:26,105
of what I do now.

280
00:13:26,189 --> 00:13:27,273
There wasn't a bad
photograph in there.

281
00:13:27,356 --> 00:13:28,149
Right.

282
00:13:28,232 --> 00:13:28,983
Quite reputable.

283
00:13:29,067 --> 00:13:30,151
Extremely.

284
00:13:30,234 --> 00:13:33,279
So I was annoyed,
but I said, "Oh, well."

285
00:13:33,362 --> 00:13:34,655
Cool.

286
00:13:34,738 --> 00:13:36,074
What else could I say?

287
00:13:37,658 --> 00:13:40,035
He said, "Second
I quit the Voice."

288
00:13:40,118 --> 00:13:40,869
Why?

289
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:45,040
'Cause Ed wrote an article
about Lilo and her photography,

290
00:13:46,041 --> 00:13:48,251
but they didn't want Ed
to use his name,

291
00:13:48,335 --> 00:13:50,002
but to publish
under Allie Anderson's name

292
00:13:50,087 --> 00:13:52,213
as the editor of the centerfold,
because she said

293
00:13:52,297 --> 00:13:53,715
it was getting too inbred.

294
00:13:53,798 --> 00:13:55,633
And he said,
"Inbred, white bread."

295
00:13:55,717 --> 00:13:56,676
Really good.

296
00:13:56,759 --> 00:13:57,885
Somehow, I didn't really think
it mattered.

297
00:13:57,969 --> 00:13:59,804
I mean, so what
if your name's not on it?

298
00:14:01,597 --> 00:14:04,350
Third on the list
was Christmas Day.

299
00:14:04,433 --> 00:14:06,727
He said, "What are you doing?"
I said, "I don't know yet."

300
00:14:09,187 --> 00:14:12,107
And he said, "Well,
we're having a thing here,

301
00:14:12,190 --> 00:14:14,359
and it'll be just people."

302
00:14:14,442 --> 00:14:15,193
And I said, "Oh."

303
00:14:15,276 --> 00:14:17,195
With no geese, no ducks.

304
00:14:17,278 --> 00:14:21,115
He said,
"Well, Bill Elliot, Lilo."

305
00:14:21,198 --> 00:14:22,575
Yeah, the same old inbred crowd.

306
00:14:22,658 --> 00:14:24,451
I think he meant,
like the real people.

307
00:14:24,534 --> 00:14:25,745
It just does.

308
00:14:27,496 --> 00:14:28,788
And I said, "Well, I have
to get back

309
00:14:28,872 --> 00:14:30,165
to the darkroom now."

310
00:14:31,875 --> 00:14:36,420
And-- and I go back to bed
with my clothes on.

311
00:14:37,964 --> 00:14:39,548
I had made the bed earlier

312
00:14:40,258 --> 00:14:41,925
for Jacqueline de Mornay
to be neat.

313
00:14:42,010 --> 00:14:43,552
I wanted to appear neat.

314
00:14:45,053 --> 00:14:45,929
So I just slipped

315
00:14:46,013 --> 00:14:47,806
under the blanket
with my clothes on.

316
00:14:47,890 --> 00:14:49,725
You fall asleep so easily.

317
00:14:51,184 --> 00:14:52,269
Well, I was tired, yeah.

318
00:14:52,352 --> 00:14:53,520
Obviously.

319
00:14:55,188 --> 00:14:59,317
I set the clock for 11:30
and I fall right asleep.

320
00:15:00,026 --> 00:15:01,360
What a life.

321
00:15:03,738 --> 00:15:08,367
I stay in bed till 11:45,
and then I put my clothes on.

322
00:15:08,450 --> 00:15:10,036
I thought you hadn't
taken them off.

323
00:15:11,578 --> 00:15:12,996
Oh.

324
00:15:13,079 --> 00:15:15,040
I guess I didn't.
I just lied.

325
00:15:16,166 --> 00:15:17,125
Well, you--
you must have taken something.

326
00:15:17,208 --> 00:15:18,334
Maybe your shoes.

327
00:15:18,418 --> 00:15:20,336
I guess I put my shoes back on.
Something.

328
00:15:21,212 --> 00:15:24,132
Anyway, I go
and make another cup of coffee

329
00:15:24,215 --> 00:15:27,718
and two pieces of toast
with raspberry jelly.

330
00:15:27,802 --> 00:15:31,430
And now I'm going to call
Allen Ginsberg at exactly noon.

331
00:15:32,472 --> 00:15:34,724
Because he does
his meditations.

332
00:15:34,808 --> 00:15:35,725
And they told me to call him

333
00:15:35,809 --> 00:15:38,061
either after 11:00 at night
or at 12:00.

334
00:15:38,145 --> 00:15:40,564
So it's exactly 12:00,
and I call him.

335
00:15:40,647 --> 00:15:41,856
It's busy.

336
00:15:42,899 --> 00:15:44,233
So I put my red jacket on,

337
00:15:44,317 --> 00:15:47,070
and I go downstairs
to buy cigarettes.

338
00:15:47,153 --> 00:15:51,199
And I break a $10 bill,
and I give her also a penny,

339
00:15:51,282 --> 00:15:53,701
because the cigarettes
are 56 cents.

340
00:15:53,784 --> 00:15:54,868
God, they are?

341
00:15:54,952 --> 00:15:57,621
I come back up,
and I call Allen Ginsberg,

342
00:15:57,705 --> 00:15:58,872
and it's still busy.

343
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,542
Then at about 12:20,

344
00:16:02,625 --> 00:16:07,171
I finally get through
and a male voice answers.

345
00:16:07,254 --> 00:16:10,466
And I say,
"Is Allen Ginsberg there?"

346
00:16:10,549 --> 00:16:15,846
And he says, "Who's calling?"
And I say, "It's Peter Hujar.

347
00:16:16,472 --> 00:16:17,889
And I'm supposed
to take pictures

348
00:16:17,973 --> 00:16:20,601
of Allen Ginsberg
for The Times."

349
00:16:20,684 --> 00:16:22,853
And the male voice says,
"It's Peter Hujar

350
00:16:22,936 --> 00:16:24,395
from The Times, Allen."

351
00:16:25,355 --> 00:16:28,149
And Allen comes
to the phone and says, "Hi."

352
00:16:28,233 --> 00:16:31,194
And I say, "Hello."
And he says, "Who's this?"

353
00:16:32,945 --> 00:16:35,072
And I say, "It's Peter Hujar.
And I leave out the part

354
00:16:35,155 --> 00:16:37,324
about The Times,
because he knows that already.

355
00:16:37,407 --> 00:16:39,994
And I say, "I'm supposed
to photograph you."

356
00:16:40,077 --> 00:16:42,204
And he says, "Fine."

357
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,957
And I say, "What about today?"

358
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,334
And he says, "Good. Today."

359
00:16:49,335 --> 00:16:50,378
And I say, "When?"

360
00:16:50,461 --> 00:16:52,005
And he says, "This afternoon."

361
00:16:52,088 --> 00:16:53,339
And I say,
"How about in an hour?"

362
00:16:53,422 --> 00:16:55,133
And he says, "Fine.

363
00:16:55,216 --> 00:16:56,592
Or even three quarters
of an hour.

364
00:16:56,675 --> 00:16:58,386
I'm just gonna
get something to eat."

365
00:16:58,469 --> 00:17:00,763
And I mentioned something
about a portrait.

366
00:17:00,846 --> 00:17:06,434
And he carries on about,
it's just like them, portraits,

367
00:17:08,395 --> 00:17:12,064
he didn't say old-fashioned,
but some word that made it sound

368
00:17:12,148 --> 00:17:15,026
like they were really,
these people are still doing

369
00:17:15,109 --> 00:17:17,612
portraits in the paper.

370
00:17:17,695 --> 00:17:20,406
The whole tone
was very unpleasant.

371
00:17:20,489 --> 00:17:22,449
And I said, "Well,"
and he said, "Well,

372
00:17:22,533 --> 00:17:25,369
you better call The Times
and tell them we can't do that."

373
00:17:26,161 --> 00:17:30,957
And I said, "Well,
let's not worry about it.

374
00:17:31,041 --> 00:17:33,126
Let's just do what we can.

375
00:17:33,209 --> 00:17:36,462
And you don't have to do
anything you don't want to do.

376
00:17:36,546 --> 00:17:38,256
As long as you're
in the picture, we'll do it."

377
00:17:38,339 --> 00:17:41,634
And he said, "No.
You better call The Times."

378
00:17:41,717 --> 00:17:42,635
And I think I got really tough.

379
00:17:42,718 --> 00:17:45,637
I said, "Look,
it's very strange."

380
00:17:45,721 --> 00:17:48,348
What are you worrying about?"
I said, "Don't worry about it.

381
00:17:49,099 --> 00:17:50,475
We'll just do it
how you want to do it.

382
00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:51,768
It's okay."

383
00:17:51,851 --> 00:17:53,603
And he says,
"I just want to make it clear."

384
00:17:53,687 --> 00:17:55,188
And I said, "Look,
it really doesn't matter.

385
00:17:55,271 --> 00:17:57,899
They just want a picture.
There are no orders.

386
00:17:57,982 --> 00:17:59,275
You have to do a portrait."

387
00:17:59,358 --> 00:18:01,444
So I said, "Okay,
I'll see you in an hour."

388
00:18:01,527 --> 00:18:03,779
Does he still live
on the Lower East Side?

389
00:18:03,862 --> 00:18:06,449
Yeah, and he gives me
the address,

390
00:18:06,532 --> 00:18:10,243
which was 10th Street
between C and D.

391
00:18:10,327 --> 00:18:11,662
And he says,
you know where that's at?

392
00:18:11,745 --> 00:18:13,163
And I say, "Yeah,
I know where that's at.

393
00:18:13,246 --> 00:18:14,873
I live down here, too."
And he says, "Oh, where?

394
00:18:14,957 --> 00:18:17,667
And I say, 2nd Avenue
and 12th Street",

395
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:19,669
which suddenly
doesn't quite make it.

396
00:18:19,752 --> 00:18:21,087
It feels like
the Upper East Side.

397
00:18:21,170 --> 00:18:22,714
The guy's up there
in a fancy neighborhood.

398
00:18:24,006 --> 00:18:26,008
So I get
my camera stuff together,

399
00:18:26,092 --> 00:18:27,468
and I have to decide
what coat to wear

400
00:18:27,551 --> 00:18:28,844
to the Lower East Side.

401
00:18:30,262 --> 00:18:31,305
And somehow,

402
00:18:31,388 --> 00:18:34,683
I think I'll wear my long,
whatever it is, coat.

403
00:18:36,101 --> 00:18:38,186
And I leave with that,
but then I decide,

404
00:18:38,269 --> 00:18:39,562
"No, it's wrong."

405
00:18:39,645 --> 00:18:41,731
And I don't quite know
what the criterion is here,

406
00:18:41,814 --> 00:18:42,983
but it just didn't feel the coat

407
00:18:43,066 --> 00:18:45,443
to wear to the Lower East Side
to meet Allen Ginsberg.

408
00:18:46,444 --> 00:18:48,112
I also had a flash
that there was something sort

409
00:18:48,195 --> 00:18:51,198
of bohemian poet about it,
and I'd be much snazzier

410
00:18:51,281 --> 00:18:52,241
in my red ski jacket.

411
00:18:52,324 --> 00:18:53,826
Oh, good choice, yeah.

412
00:18:53,909 --> 00:18:56,078
I just think it's more
like Lower East Side.

413
00:18:57,496 --> 00:18:59,831
Oh, before I leave,
I water the plants.

414
00:19:03,001 --> 00:19:04,002
And at this point,

415
00:19:04,085 --> 00:19:05,544
I'm not exactly sure
what time he called me.

416
00:19:05,628 --> 00:19:07,213
Who called?

417
00:19:07,296 --> 00:19:08,464
Allen Ginsberg.

418
00:19:08,547 --> 00:19:10,508
But I talked to Allen Ginsberg.

419
00:19:10,591 --> 00:19:14,303
So that hour of getting ready,
I couldn't quite remember

420
00:19:14,387 --> 00:19:15,929
when that was.

421
00:19:16,013 --> 00:19:18,641
But anyway, I watered the plants
before I left.

422
00:19:18,724 --> 00:19:20,267
Do you have a watering can?

423
00:19:21,393 --> 00:19:22,519
No.

424
00:19:22,602 --> 00:19:25,313
The coffee pot,
which I fill up in the tub,

425
00:19:25,397 --> 00:19:27,106
because the pressure
is much quicker.

426
00:19:35,489 --> 00:19:37,074
Then I walked
to Allen Ginsberg's,

427
00:19:38,575 --> 00:19:41,328
down 2nd Avenue
and straight across 10th Street,

428
00:19:41,412 --> 00:19:43,413
past Fred and Simona Tuten's
and those other people,

429
00:19:43,497 --> 00:19:44,706
that writer critic?

430
00:19:44,790 --> 00:19:46,374
- John Gruen?
- Yeah.

431
00:19:47,208 --> 00:19:48,668
But Ginsberg's
like two more blocks

432
00:19:48,751 --> 00:19:51,379
further down where it
really gets to looking dismal.

433
00:19:51,462 --> 00:19:53,756
And this Puerto Rican
had yellow paint

434
00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:56,551
all over his hands,
really thick

435
00:19:56,634 --> 00:19:58,218
smeared down his nose

436
00:19:58,302 --> 00:20:01,180
like he'd sprayed himself
with chrome spray paint,

437
00:20:01,263 --> 00:20:02,264
orange, yellow.

438
00:20:02,347 --> 00:20:03,390
And his shirt

439
00:20:03,473 --> 00:20:06,768
and his hands were just all--
and on the face

440
00:20:06,851 --> 00:20:09,438
it was much lighter,
it was a little more spread out.

441
00:20:09,521 --> 00:20:11,815
So it was like this glow
on his face.

442
00:20:11,898 --> 00:20:13,817
But then he wiped his nose
and there was this streak.

443
00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:15,484
Was he just standing
on the street?

444
00:20:15,568 --> 00:20:17,361
Uh, he came out
of the building

445
00:20:17,445 --> 00:20:19,780
and he looked at me
almost like nasty.

446
00:20:19,863 --> 00:20:22,950
And I thought, "Oh,
he can tell, an alien."

447
00:20:23,033 --> 00:20:25,285
I almost felt fancy down there.

448
00:20:25,368 --> 00:20:26,954
The neighborhood intimidates me
way in there.

449
00:20:27,037 --> 00:20:29,456
It's very frightening,
so rundown and dreary.

450
00:20:29,539 --> 00:20:31,624
Yeah, it's like the Bronx
where my Aunt Pauline lives.

451
00:20:31,708 --> 00:20:34,586
I don't have any real fear,
but it's very uncomfortable

452
00:20:34,669 --> 00:20:35,795
to go down there.

453
00:20:39,631 --> 00:20:42,759
Anyway, I get to his house
and I go to apartment 4C

454
00:20:42,843 --> 00:20:44,511
and I knock three times
on the door.

455
00:20:44,595 --> 00:20:45,721
He told you to?

456
00:20:45,804 --> 00:20:47,723
No, I just-- I just did.

457
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,352
And uh, Peter Orlovsky opens
the door wearing his tam,

458
00:20:52,435 --> 00:20:54,479
and his hair is still
down the back of his neck.

459
00:20:55,646 --> 00:20:59,150
And he's really like,
45 years old,

460
00:20:59,234 --> 00:21:01,110
like an old Polish man.

461
00:21:01,193 --> 00:21:02,403
And I don't know
whether he had it before,

462
00:21:02,487 --> 00:21:03,445
but you know those moles

463
00:21:03,529 --> 00:21:05,322
that are skin-colored
with hair.

464
00:21:05,405 --> 00:21:06,281
Hmm.

465
00:21:06,365 --> 00:21:07,657
Like old people have
on their faces?

466
00:21:07,741 --> 00:21:09,326
He's got two of them
on his cheek.

467
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,997
And he's uh, he's heavier.

468
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:15,832
It's not really like it's fat.

469
00:21:15,915 --> 00:21:16,625
It's like it's--

470
00:21:16,708 --> 00:21:17,667
Looks like he's getting older.

471
00:21:17,751 --> 00:21:21,087
Yeah, there's a lot
of gray in his beard.

472
00:21:21,170 --> 00:21:23,006
And he says,
"Allen's on the phone.

473
00:21:23,089 --> 00:21:24,090
Sit down."

474
00:21:24,757 --> 00:21:27,635
And I don't know what I expected
of Allen Ginsberg's apartment,

475
00:21:27,718 --> 00:21:31,221
but it was really the most
rundown tenement

476
00:21:32,055 --> 00:21:34,391
with uh, tenement furniture,

477
00:21:34,474 --> 00:21:38,686
linoleum,
a few sort of Indian things,

478
00:21:39,437 --> 00:21:43,691
a mattress on the floor,
Bob Dylan poster on the wall,

479
00:21:44,984 --> 00:21:46,944
Rolling Stones.

480
00:21:47,028 --> 00:21:48,570
Oh, there was
some guitars around.

481
00:21:49,405 --> 00:21:52,158
And oh, and there was
a girl there

482
00:21:52,241 --> 00:21:55,661
with a very New York accent,
around 22.

483
00:21:55,744 --> 00:21:57,412
She was just sitting around?

484
00:21:58,329 --> 00:21:59,915
Uh, they were addressing
Christmas cards.

485
00:21:59,998 --> 00:22:01,041
Oh.

486
00:22:01,124 --> 00:22:02,042
And they went back
to addressing Christmas cards.

487
00:22:02,125 --> 00:22:03,959
She was helping them do theirs?

488
00:22:04,044 --> 00:22:04,919
Mm.

489
00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:08,381
Allen was on the phone.

490
00:22:08,464 --> 00:22:10,174
You're assuming something
that we don't know.

491
00:22:11,466 --> 00:22:14,553
Whether she lived
with them or I couldn't tell.

492
00:22:14,636 --> 00:22:16,138
I think they were
involved somehow.

493
00:22:16,221 --> 00:22:18,557
I also had the feeling
that Allen actually lives more

494
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,142
in the country
and that Peter lives there

495
00:22:21,225 --> 00:22:22,977
with this girl.

496
00:22:23,061 --> 00:22:24,187
That was my guess.

497
00:22:25,063 --> 00:22:27,148
He's on the phone
talking about Ellsberg.

498
00:22:27,231 --> 00:22:28,774
Oh, what was he saying?

499
00:22:28,858 --> 00:22:30,443
I really wasn't
that interested somehow.

500
00:22:30,526 --> 00:22:32,528
I could have listened,
but I didn't bother.

501
00:22:33,571 --> 00:22:36,615
And then he got off the phone
and he said,

502
00:22:36,699 --> 00:22:38,742
"Hi, want some tea?"

503
00:22:39,617 --> 00:22:41,453
And then he said,
"No, let's go right now",

504
00:22:41,536 --> 00:22:42,495
before I had the chance.

505
00:22:42,579 --> 00:22:44,081
And I said, "No, look,
you want a cup of tea?

506
00:22:44,164 --> 00:22:45,957
I'd like one",
because I didn't want

507
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,208
to go right out to the site.

508
00:22:48,209 --> 00:22:51,253
So we have a cup of coffee
and Hibiscus calls

509
00:22:51,337 --> 00:22:53,630
and he says, "Hello, Hibiscus."

510
00:22:55,049 --> 00:22:57,384
And when he gets off the phone,
he's being very cool

511
00:22:57,468 --> 00:22:58,760
and uh, suspicious.

512
00:22:58,844 --> 00:23:00,637
Does he have a big beard
and everything?

513
00:23:01,972 --> 00:23:04,349
Yeah, it's like an Indian,
really out like this

514
00:23:04,432 --> 00:23:06,267
and he's bald on top.

515
00:23:06,351 --> 00:23:08,019
He has these glasses
with wire rims.

516
00:23:08,103 --> 00:23:09,312
He used to have
those dark glasses.

517
00:23:09,395 --> 00:23:11,897
Yeah, I have a nice picture
of him with Gregory

518
00:23:11,981 --> 00:23:13,274
that Gregory gave me.

519
00:23:13,358 --> 00:23:14,525
I'd like to see it.

520
00:23:16,694 --> 00:23:17,987
And then I asked him
something like,

521
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:20,823
"What's with Hibiscus?"
And he asked him.

522
00:23:20,906 --> 00:23:21,866
You know Hibiscus?

523
00:23:21,949 --> 00:23:22,824
Yeah.

524
00:23:23,658 --> 00:23:28,413
"Oh, show, where, when,

525
00:23:28,497 --> 00:23:29,789
how's your love life?

526
00:23:29,873 --> 00:23:32,917
Good. The same one? Goodbye."

527
00:23:34,794 --> 00:23:39,089
And uh, and then I said uh,

528
00:23:39,173 --> 00:23:40,883
"Does he still have
the same boyfriend?"

529
00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:43,511
And he said, he still does.

530
00:23:44,887 --> 00:23:46,638
And uh, then he said,

531
00:23:47,765 --> 00:23:50,517
"I was in an angel show
in San Francisco."

532
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,977
And I said, "I was
in an Angel show here.

533
00:23:54,437 --> 00:23:57,815
I was Mother Goose
and I looked like Vivian Leigh",

534
00:23:57,899 --> 00:23:59,316
but he doesn't respond at all.

535
00:24:00,735 --> 00:24:03,779
I almost feel like everything
I'm saying wasn't even heard.

536
00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:12,746
And then we go out
and go to this

537
00:24:12,829 --> 00:24:15,040
burned out building
where he was mugged

538
00:24:15,123 --> 00:24:18,959
and he stands there
and he points at the door.

539
00:24:19,043 --> 00:24:20,878
Is he wearing an Indian robe?

540
00:24:20,961 --> 00:24:23,047
No, Levi's.

541
00:24:25,716 --> 00:24:28,260
Oh, he says he has
the same clothes

542
00:24:28,343 --> 00:24:30,345
as when he was mugged.

543
00:24:30,429 --> 00:24:32,264
And I said, "I don't think
it really matters."

544
00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:38,937
And he says something
about something I forget.

545
00:24:42,648 --> 00:24:44,775
So we go there and I say,
"It looks like something

546
00:24:44,858 --> 00:24:47,611
out of an Italian comic book",
pointing that way.

547
00:24:48,446 --> 00:24:51,824
I couldn't remember fumetti,
but it somehow had that look.

548
00:24:52,908 --> 00:24:55,828
I say, "You really want to look
that way in the New York Times?"

549
00:24:55,911 --> 00:24:58,246
And he says,
"I want the people to see."

550
00:24:59,456 --> 00:25:01,207
And he somehow ties it up
with all these

551
00:25:01,291 --> 00:25:04,168
burned-out buildings,
boarded-up windows

552
00:25:04,251 --> 00:25:05,753
and people still living there.

553
00:25:05,837 --> 00:25:07,296
It's very desolate and strange.

554
00:25:07,379 --> 00:25:08,505
Right in his neighborhood.

555
00:25:08,589 --> 00:25:09,840
Yeah.

556
00:25:09,924 --> 00:25:12,634
And the buildings
are burned out, whole floors,

557
00:25:12,718 --> 00:25:15,011
like these people
are being burned out.

558
00:25:17,055 --> 00:25:18,557
And he points at a building
and says,

559
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,641
"Tuli Kupferberg lives there."

560
00:25:22,018 --> 00:25:23,979
And I didn't quite know
what to say to that.

561
00:25:25,688 --> 00:25:26,939
I thought,
"I guess I should tell him

562
00:25:27,022 --> 00:25:29,650
I photographed Tuli Kupferberg,
but I don't really want to."

563
00:25:31,694 --> 00:25:32,903
But I do.

564
00:25:32,987 --> 00:25:34,864
I say, "Oh, I photographed him
when he was with The Fugs."

565
00:25:36,907 --> 00:25:38,908
Then he points
at the butcher's shop

566
00:25:39,951 --> 00:25:42,496
and says, "That was
the Peace Eye bookstore.

567
00:25:42,579 --> 00:25:44,205
You can take a picture
of me in it, so I can send it

568
00:25:44,288 --> 00:25:45,790
to Ed Sanders."

569
00:25:45,874 --> 00:25:47,458
So I do that.

570
00:25:47,541 --> 00:25:50,044
And he says,
"Can you get all this stuff in

571
00:25:50,128 --> 00:25:51,587
that's charred?"

572
00:25:51,670 --> 00:25:53,046
And I say, "Sure, sure."

573
00:25:53,131 --> 00:25:56,299
Is-- is he still suspicious
or has he warmed up?

574
00:25:56,384 --> 00:25:57,300
No.

575
00:25:58,802 --> 00:26:00,428
And I say,
"Oh, it looks real arty."

576
00:26:00,512 --> 00:26:02,722
Standing in the burned out
butcher's shop window

577
00:26:02,805 --> 00:26:04,557
with his arms crossed, chanting.

578
00:26:04,641 --> 00:26:05,767
Yeah. Om.

579
00:26:06,684 --> 00:26:07,602
Yeah.

580
00:26:07,685 --> 00:26:10,980
He kept doing the
om, om, om, pum, tum.

581
00:26:11,063 --> 00:26:13,232
And then we go to the doorway
across the street.

582
00:26:14,984 --> 00:26:16,735
And he sits down
in the lotus position

583
00:26:16,818 --> 00:26:18,820
looking very Buddha,

584
00:26:18,904 --> 00:26:21,740
right in the doorway,
and he starts to chant.

585
00:26:21,823 --> 00:26:24,075
And I really think, "Well,
I can't interrupt God."

586
00:26:24,159 --> 00:26:27,620
I can't say,
"Can you please stop that?

587
00:26:27,704 --> 00:26:29,497
Do you really want
a picture sitting

588
00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:30,498
in the doorway?"

589
00:26:30,581 --> 00:26:32,208
-Yeah, he does, though.
-He does, though.

590
00:26:34,294 --> 00:26:38,631
And uh, then this girl
and Peter walk by

591
00:26:38,714 --> 00:26:41,926
and he waves and says,
"Come have your picture taken.

592
00:26:42,009 --> 00:26:44,094
We haven't had a picture
together in a long time."

593
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,514
So I think it's just gonna
be the two of them,

594
00:26:47,597 --> 00:26:50,349
but then the girl gets in, too,
so it's the three.

595
00:26:51,726 --> 00:26:54,353
I somehow thought it might
be interesting to have a picture

596
00:26:54,437 --> 00:26:56,189
of one of the longest marriages.

597
00:27:02,903 --> 00:27:05,447
Oh, when I had my coffee,
this goes back,

598
00:27:07,282 --> 00:27:09,617
the girl said,
"There's no sugar."

599
00:27:10,618 --> 00:27:12,745
But then she did find
a single sugar pack,

600
00:27:12,829 --> 00:27:15,164
because she said,
"Honey is so awful in coffee."

601
00:27:15,247 --> 00:27:16,040
Ouch.

602
00:27:17,166 --> 00:27:18,626
I like it. It's good.

603
00:27:21,253 --> 00:27:22,880
And we finished taking pictures
on the street

604
00:27:22,964 --> 00:27:25,049
and I don't really know
what else to do there.

605
00:27:25,132 --> 00:27:27,218
And at one point I said,
"You're talking to me

606
00:27:27,301 --> 00:27:29,678
like I'm the New York Times
and I'm not",

607
00:27:29,761 --> 00:27:31,012
because he kept throwing
in things

608
00:27:31,096 --> 00:27:33,514
about the ownership
of The Times' connections

609
00:27:33,598 --> 00:27:35,892
with the oil interests,
and I just couldn't care less.

610
00:27:35,976 --> 00:27:37,268
I mean, the details
are like something

611
00:27:37,352 --> 00:27:39,979
out of a soap opera
that's not very interesting.

612
00:27:40,062 --> 00:27:41,522
And he said,
"But you work for The Times."

613
00:27:41,606 --> 00:27:43,524
And I said, "No, this is the
first job I've gotten

614
00:27:43,608 --> 00:27:44,442
for The Times."

615
00:27:44,525 --> 00:27:46,026
And suddenly,
that's much better.

616
00:27:47,737 --> 00:27:50,155
And I asked to take
some portraits of him

617
00:27:50,239 --> 00:27:52,741
at home just for me,
and he said, "Sure."

618
00:27:52,824 --> 00:27:55,118
What, to do right then
and there?

619
00:27:55,201 --> 00:27:56,160
Yeah.

620
00:27:57,245 --> 00:27:59,748
And we walked back to his house
and stopped at a vegetable store

621
00:27:59,831 --> 00:28:01,665
on the corner of Avenue C.

622
00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:06,962
And a car crashed
into the back of a truck.

623
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,089
And it turns out, the story,

624
00:28:09,172 --> 00:28:11,717
that the guy who crashed
into the truck

625
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,343
was going the wrong way.

626
00:28:14,302 --> 00:28:15,678
He doesn't have
a license or anything.

627
00:28:15,762 --> 00:28:18,640
It's probably a stolen car,
and the police took him to jail.

628
00:28:20,683 --> 00:28:22,977
He buys three persimmons.

629
00:28:24,854 --> 00:28:26,397
And he says,
"Have you ever eaten these?"

630
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,690
And I say, "Yeah,
I don't like the way

631
00:28:27,774 --> 00:28:28,607
they feel in my mouth.

632
00:28:28,690 --> 00:28:30,526
They have that awful
chalky feeling."

633
00:28:31,443 --> 00:28:32,653
And he says,

634
00:28:32,736 --> 00:28:34,446
"Oh, I just really got into them
only a couple months ago",

635
00:28:36,156 --> 00:28:38,241
something about vitamin C
or something.

636
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:41,327
And I say, "Have you ever
seen them on a tree?

637
00:28:42,620 --> 00:28:45,165
They were on the tree
after all the leaves fall off."

638
00:28:45,998 --> 00:28:48,543
And he's not listening
to this at all.

639
00:29:00,095 --> 00:29:02,055
"Let me go upstairs."

640
00:29:02,138 --> 00:29:04,057
And I say, "Why don't
you sit over there?"

641
00:29:05,892 --> 00:29:07,852
And he sits down
in a lotus position

642
00:29:07,936 --> 00:29:08,937
and starts chanting.

643
00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:11,230
Oh, he's a compulsive chanter.

644
00:29:11,314 --> 00:29:13,816
Looking with this kind
of nowhere look.

645
00:29:13,899 --> 00:29:17,653
He doesn't see me at all.
He's just focused into...

646
00:29:18,403 --> 00:29:19,697
Um-land.

647
00:29:21,156 --> 00:29:23,408
And then I say,
"I don't like that background."

648
00:29:24,451 --> 00:29:26,244
So I move him.

649
00:29:26,328 --> 00:29:28,663
Just to move him,
just against another wall.

650
00:29:31,082 --> 00:29:34,418
And then I say, "Why don't you
pay attention to me?

651
00:29:35,502 --> 00:29:36,753
Check me out."

652
00:29:38,214 --> 00:29:40,716
And he starts to do that,
but then he gets into listing

653
00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:44,886
like who really runs the country
and the top 10 corporations

654
00:29:44,970 --> 00:29:46,221
and oil.

655
00:29:47,347 --> 00:29:48,890
And then we're interrupted
by a call

656
00:29:48,974 --> 00:29:51,892
and it's all talk
about William Burroughs.

657
00:29:53,144 --> 00:29:54,687
And I think...

658
00:29:54,770 --> 00:29:56,814
Here's my chance.

659
00:29:56,897 --> 00:30:00,150
I just throw this in,
which I somehow did.

660
00:30:02,527 --> 00:30:04,904
But I find it hard not to be.

661
00:30:06,781 --> 00:30:07,657
It's almost as if

662
00:30:07,741 --> 00:30:09,701
I felt I better show
some credentials.

663
00:30:10,869 --> 00:30:12,662
So I said, "I'm photographing
him tomorrow."

664
00:30:12,746 --> 00:30:14,372
And he said, "Oh, how come?"

665
00:30:15,706 --> 00:30:18,376
It's almost as if
everything I said...

666
00:30:22,255 --> 00:30:23,339
"I met him at lunch."

667
00:30:24,297 --> 00:30:27,259
"Where?"
"Felicity Mason's."

668
00:30:27,342 --> 00:30:30,303
"When?"
"Three weeks ago."

669
00:30:30,387 --> 00:30:31,471
What, did he approve?

670
00:30:31,554 --> 00:30:32,472
No.

671
00:30:32,555 --> 00:30:33,681
Sounds horrible.

672
00:31:33,737 --> 00:31:37,032
And then he said,
"Oh, you can get

673
00:31:37,115 --> 00:31:39,034
some interesting pictures
out of Bill."

674
00:31:41,244 --> 00:31:42,620
And I said, "Oh, really?"

675
00:31:44,288 --> 00:31:46,207
And he said,
"Yeah, suck his cock."

676
00:31:49,293 --> 00:31:52,671
And I said, "It would be better
if I brought him

677
00:31:52,754 --> 00:31:54,881
a prep school boy."

678
00:31:54,965 --> 00:31:56,467
And he said,
"Oh, you could do that.

679
00:31:57,468 --> 00:31:59,135
As Burroughs loves

680
00:31:59,219 --> 00:32:01,930
those prep school waspy boys
with the neckties."

681
00:32:03,681 --> 00:32:07,810
I thought it was strange,
out of nowhere.

682
00:32:07,893 --> 00:32:08,978
What, the sucking the cock?

683
00:32:09,061 --> 00:32:10,229
Yeah.

684
00:32:11,105 --> 00:32:13,608
It's different
from his chanting image.

685
00:32:20,072 --> 00:32:23,116
He took a certain relish
in like, being naughty

686
00:32:23,199 --> 00:32:24,325
or something.

687
00:32:25,076 --> 00:32:27,495
Almost felt like
it had an edge of, come on.

688
00:32:30,498 --> 00:32:34,793
He said, "You could go
to bed with Bill."

689
00:32:36,003 --> 00:32:38,506
And I said, "I don't think
it would be that impossible.

690
00:32:39,882 --> 00:32:42,217
He's not that unattractive."
Which he isn't.

691
00:32:44,011 --> 00:32:46,388
There's something--
he was very friendly.

692
00:32:47,097 --> 00:32:49,641
-He was nice-looking.
-Hm. I like his face.

693
00:32:49,724 --> 00:32:50,725
It's not repellent.

694
00:32:50,808 --> 00:32:53,686
Mm. He's the opposite of Allen.

695
00:32:54,478 --> 00:32:56,772
I mean, like,
he'll age very well.

696
00:32:56,856 --> 00:32:59,691
Ginsberg will just be
a fat old Jewish man.

697
00:32:59,775 --> 00:33:01,527
He's always been very ugly.

698
00:33:07,908 --> 00:33:09,951
I forgot what else
was said there.

699
00:33:12,662 --> 00:33:14,705
Oh, he said he might
come by tomorrow.

700
00:33:16,499 --> 00:33:18,876
'Cause he'd already
got more time.

701
00:33:18,959 --> 00:33:20,210
What, at your place?

702
00:33:20,294 --> 00:33:22,462
No, Burroughs.
At 3:00.

703
00:33:22,546 --> 00:33:23,630
Did you tell him not to?

704
00:33:23,713 --> 00:33:24,756
No.

705
00:33:26,091 --> 00:33:28,635
No, I thought about that,
but then I thought

706
00:33:28,718 --> 00:33:30,387
maybe it might be interesting.

707
00:33:32,639 --> 00:33:34,849
Burroughs and Ginsberg
together on a picture.

708
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,145
I'd still get Burroughs.

709
00:33:41,230 --> 00:33:42,481
And then I left.

710
00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:44,650
Was it a friendly farewell?

711
00:33:44,733 --> 00:33:45,693
Yeah.

712
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,363
He said he'd like
to see the pictures,

713
00:33:51,281 --> 00:33:53,408
to tell him what picture
was used in The Times,

714
00:33:53,491 --> 00:33:55,785
and in the end,
he really didn't care

715
00:33:55,868 --> 00:33:58,204
if I used a portrait
of him or not.

716
00:33:58,287 --> 00:33:59,497
You won him over.

717
00:34:01,623 --> 00:34:03,792
He said he was just being hard,

718
00:34:05,502 --> 00:34:07,546
and he was trying
to protect himself.

719
00:34:11,383 --> 00:34:12,801
And I walked home.

720
00:34:14,010 --> 00:34:15,636
What time is it about?

721
00:34:17,472 --> 00:34:18,764
I don't know.

722
00:34:18,848 --> 00:34:20,141
It's still light.

723
00:34:21,226 --> 00:34:22,477
Maybe 4:00.

724
00:34:26,271 --> 00:34:27,272
Then what?

725
00:34:29,066 --> 00:34:31,276
Then I take out
this Oscar Mayer Braunschweiger.

726
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:32,569
Oh, I used to love that.

727
00:34:32,652 --> 00:34:33,862
Is it still cheap?

728
00:34:33,945 --> 00:34:35,197
No.

729
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,907
It's 89 cents for a little--
It's expensive.

730
00:34:38,533 --> 00:34:40,910
But I was hungry,
and I splurged.

731
00:34:41,577 --> 00:34:43,746
I make a sandwich
on that Pepperidge Farm,

732
00:34:43,830 --> 00:34:45,456
that delicious bread.

733
00:34:45,539 --> 00:34:46,832
It's wheat bread, but it's--

734
00:34:46,915 --> 00:34:48,126
The sprouted wheat?

735
00:34:48,209 --> 00:34:49,418
It's sprouted wheat!

736
00:34:49,502 --> 00:34:51,128
And I have some Pep-up,
that's left.

737
00:34:51,211 --> 00:34:52,505
What is that?

738
00:34:52,588 --> 00:34:54,798
That's the Adelle Davis drink
with yeast and stuff.

739
00:34:56,674 --> 00:35:00,720
And as soon as I finished that,
which I ate fairly quickly,

740
00:35:01,471 --> 00:35:03,222
I go right into the darkroom,
and I set up

741
00:35:03,306 --> 00:35:04,849
for developing film.

742
00:35:05,683 --> 00:35:07,769
And the phone rings,
and it's Steve Pisney,

743
00:35:08,602 --> 00:35:10,646
who is some number
who likes to talk tough.

744
00:35:10,729 --> 00:35:12,231
He used to be in the Marines.

745
00:35:12,939 --> 00:35:14,941
He's actually very sweet.

746
00:35:15,025 --> 00:35:18,654
But he has this whole
comic book edge to him.

747
00:35:18,737 --> 00:35:23,158
He says, "Hey, man,
I'm really hot tonight.

748
00:35:23,241 --> 00:35:24,575
I was just jacking off."

749
00:35:24,659 --> 00:35:26,452
And I say,
"Well, I've got people here."

750
00:35:27,245 --> 00:35:28,954
You lie all day long.

751
00:35:29,038 --> 00:35:30,831
Yeah, I do.
It's amazing.

752
00:35:30,915 --> 00:35:32,374
I don't think you realize
half the time.

753
00:35:32,458 --> 00:35:33,668
You do.
I know when I lie.

754
00:35:33,751 --> 00:35:34,627
I don't know why I do them,
but each lie is--

755
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:36,461
I wish I could do it more.

756
00:35:36,545 --> 00:35:38,130
I mean, you didn't want
to talk to him, right?

757
00:35:38,213 --> 00:35:39,256
You wanted to work.

758
00:35:39,339 --> 00:35:41,591
He wanted me to come over
to his house.

759
00:35:43,092 --> 00:35:45,720
I said, "Okay, well,
catch you later."

760
00:35:45,804 --> 00:35:47,639
-Yeah. He's not a New Yorker.
-No.

761
00:35:54,645 --> 00:35:56,647
So then I go
into the dark room,

762
00:35:57,815 --> 00:36:01,568
and I develop
two rolls of film first,

763
00:36:01,652 --> 00:36:03,070
because there
are eight altogether.

764
00:36:03,153 --> 00:36:05,030
And this is the Ginsbergs.

765
00:36:05,113 --> 00:36:07,324
And that's in the hypo.

766
00:36:07,407 --> 00:36:08,491
And Linda calls.

767
00:36:09,367 --> 00:36:11,494
And she tells me
to write this all out.

768
00:36:11,578 --> 00:36:13,245
But you hadn't written anything
before this?

769
00:36:13,329 --> 00:36:15,081
- No.
- Oh my God.

770
00:36:15,164 --> 00:36:17,374
I said, "I don't know
that I can remember it all."

771
00:36:17,458 --> 00:36:18,542
Turns out...

772
00:36:19,585 --> 00:36:22,963
'Cause I really began to think,
"Well, I didn't do anything."

773
00:36:23,839 --> 00:36:26,467
I photographed Ginsberg,
that woman from Elle.

774
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:28,426
She came in the morning.
That's it.

775
00:36:28,509 --> 00:36:29,720
Isn't it interesting?

776
00:36:29,803 --> 00:36:30,887
It really is.

777
00:36:30,971 --> 00:36:33,223
Because as soon as I started,
like all this--

778
00:36:33,306 --> 00:36:35,015
Yes.
It's like a whole novel already.

779
00:36:35,099 --> 00:36:36,601
Yeah. All this stuff came.

780
00:36:39,311 --> 00:36:41,063
So I write it all down.

781
00:36:41,146 --> 00:36:41,939
It takes me a bit of time.

782
00:36:42,022 --> 00:36:42,940
I thought it would
take a minute.

783
00:36:43,023 --> 00:36:44,984
It takes like 12 minutes.

784
00:36:45,067 --> 00:36:48,528
Then I go into the dark room,
and I develop

785
00:36:48,612 --> 00:36:52,699
the other eight rolls of film
when Glenn O'Brien calls.

786
00:36:53,867 --> 00:36:56,285
And he says,
"Will you be home at 8:30?"

787
00:36:56,369 --> 00:36:58,746
And I say, "Oh, I don't know.

788
00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:02,708
I'm pretty sure I will be
because I'm at work.

789
00:37:02,791 --> 00:37:04,209
I should work.

790
00:37:04,293 --> 00:37:05,878
but like,
I really don't want to,

791
00:37:06,962 --> 00:37:07,921
I might go out or something.

792
00:37:08,005 --> 00:37:09,089
I don't want
to commit myself right now."

793
00:37:09,172 --> 00:37:11,758
You said this to him
or you just thought about it?

794
00:37:11,841 --> 00:37:12,968
I thought about it.

795
00:37:13,926 --> 00:37:16,346
I don't want to commit
myself right now.

796
00:37:16,429 --> 00:37:18,180
And I know
I probably will work.

797
00:37:18,264 --> 00:37:20,057
And if I say, "Yes, 8:30..."

798
00:37:20,141 --> 00:37:22,018
Well, he was gonna
call you back at 8:30?

799
00:37:22,101 --> 00:37:25,146
No, he was going to be
down in the neighborhood.

800
00:37:25,229 --> 00:37:27,273
He wants to know
if I would give him

801
00:37:27,356 --> 00:37:29,858
the negatives of, um...

802
00:37:30,901 --> 00:37:31,860
He's starting this

803
00:37:31,943 --> 00:37:34,279
rock and roll group
called "the Conelrad".

804
00:37:35,363 --> 00:37:38,074
He can't sing
or play an instrument.

805
00:37:38,158 --> 00:37:39,242
None of them can.

806
00:37:39,325 --> 00:37:40,951
Nikki, the guy that did
those anal paintings.

807
00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:42,453
Oh, I was just reading
about him today.

808
00:37:42,537 --> 00:37:43,913
Yeah, he did something
Saturday night.

809
00:37:43,996 --> 00:37:45,247
He's the drummer
in this group.

810
00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:45,956
With his ass?

811
00:37:47,082 --> 00:37:48,709
Yeah, I photographed them.

812
00:37:48,793 --> 00:37:51,503
Because it's almost like
they're doing this hype.

813
00:37:51,586 --> 00:37:52,754
I don't know
if it's half serious.

814
00:37:52,837 --> 00:37:54,214
Well, does any music come out?

815
00:37:54,298 --> 00:37:55,424
No.

816
00:37:55,507 --> 00:37:56,758
They haven't made any music.

817
00:37:58,217 --> 00:38:00,469
Glenn can't sing or play.

818
00:38:00,554 --> 00:38:01,680
And they get publicity.

819
00:38:01,763 --> 00:38:04,849
Like they got Lisa Robinson
from Rock Scenes

820
00:38:04,933 --> 00:38:06,767
to do a picture of them.

821
00:38:06,850 --> 00:38:09,061
And Fran Lebowitz
to do an interview.

822
00:38:09,812 --> 00:38:11,355
And it's totally made up.

823
00:38:12,147 --> 00:38:14,942
They're Korean war brats
and they got together in Korea.

824
00:38:15,025 --> 00:38:16,026
What, they really are?

825
00:38:16,109 --> 00:38:17,402
Mm-mm.

826
00:38:17,485 --> 00:38:18,361
No, they made up the story.

827
00:38:18,445 --> 00:38:20,363
They talk about it
as if it were real.

828
00:38:20,447 --> 00:38:22,490
So I photographed them
for Lisa.

829
00:38:23,575 --> 00:38:27,745
And I said, "Yeah, I have
no need for the negatives."

830
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,957
And I hang up the negatives
and Vince calls.

831
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,583
No.

832
00:38:32,666 --> 00:38:35,252
I hang up the negatives
and I take a nap.

833
00:38:35,336 --> 00:38:36,587
Of course.

834
00:38:36,670 --> 00:38:37,796
'Cause I needed a nap.
Does it sound like too many?

835
00:38:37,879 --> 00:38:38,922
What, two naps a day?

836
00:38:39,005 --> 00:38:40,966
- Yeah.
- Yeah.

837
00:38:41,049 --> 00:38:42,300
Well, the first one
wasn't a nap.

838
00:38:42,383 --> 00:38:43,969
It was a continuation
of my sleep.

839
00:38:44,052 --> 00:38:45,428
And I needed an hour more.

840
00:38:47,888 --> 00:38:49,932
And uh, then Vince called.

841
00:38:50,015 --> 00:38:53,102
And uh, he wanted to know
if he could come over

842
00:38:53,185 --> 00:38:56,981
to take a shower at my place,
'cause he had no hot water.

843
00:38:57,064 --> 00:38:59,816
And he was really hoping
that there was someone

844
00:38:59,899 --> 00:39:02,777
that he knew that he could call
to take a shower with.

845
00:39:02,861 --> 00:39:04,488
But he wished that he had
some friend,

846
00:39:04,571 --> 00:39:05,822
you know, some trick.

847
00:39:05,905 --> 00:39:06,865
You should have given him
the other guy's number,

848
00:39:06,948 --> 00:39:08,324
the one that was hot.

849
00:39:08,407 --> 00:39:09,408
I should have done.

850
00:39:10,659 --> 00:39:12,245
But they wouldn't get along.

851
00:39:12,328 --> 00:39:13,621
Vince wouldn't let him
do his number.

852
00:39:14,955 --> 00:39:15,956
Sometimes when I've made
it with him, he calls me

853
00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:16,707
"buddy".

854
00:39:17,458 --> 00:39:18,166
Great.

855
00:39:18,250 --> 00:39:19,960
♪ Hold me tight, my baby ♪

856
00:39:20,043 --> 00:39:21,879
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪

857
00:39:21,962 --> 00:39:23,881
♪ Hold me tight, my baby ♪

858
00:39:23,964 --> 00:39:25,590
♪ Everything's all right ♪

859
00:39:25,673 --> 00:39:27,717
♪ Hold me tight ♪

860
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,051
♪ Hold me tight ♪

861
00:39:30,303 --> 00:39:32,472
♪ I don't care about tomorrow ♪

862
00:39:32,555 --> 00:39:34,265
♪ But hold me tight tonight ♪

863
00:39:35,683 --> 00:39:38,936
Danced all night

864
00:39:41,730 --> 00:39:43,649
♪ Come on and let's have fun ♪

865
00:39:43,732 --> 00:39:46,610
♪ Hold me tight, hold me tight ♪

866
00:39:48,153 --> 00:39:50,405
♪ I don't care about tomorrow ♪

867
00:39:50,488 --> 00:39:52,157
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪

868
00:40:10,424 --> 00:40:12,551
♪ Hold me tight, my baby ♪

869
00:40:12,634 --> 00:40:14,553
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪

870
00:40:14,636 --> 00:40:16,680
♪ Hold me tight, my baby ♪

871
00:40:16,763 --> 00:40:18,306
♪ Everything's all right ♪

872
00:40:18,389 --> 00:40:21,392
♪ Hold me tight, hold me tight ♪

873
00:40:23,060 --> 00:40:25,354
♪ I don't care about tomorrow ♪

874
00:40:25,438 --> 00:40:26,980
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪

875
00:40:28,273 --> 00:40:30,608
♪ I don't care about tomorrow ♪

876
00:40:30,692 --> 00:40:32,319
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪

877
00:40:40,367 --> 00:40:42,161
Oh, one of the details
of the Glenn O'Brien

878
00:40:42,244 --> 00:40:47,041
conversation that I forgot
was he wrote an article

879
00:40:47,124 --> 00:40:50,211
for Italian Vogue
about Bob Wilson

880
00:40:51,169 --> 00:40:53,338
and they used one
of my pictures.

881
00:40:53,422 --> 00:40:55,006
So I said, "Hey Glenn,
did you ever get paid for that?"

882
00:40:55,090 --> 00:40:56,257
And he said, "No."

883
00:40:56,341 --> 00:40:58,051
I said, "I want to get
some money out of them.

884
00:40:58,134 --> 00:40:59,885
Do you have an issue around,
because I want to send them

885
00:40:59,970 --> 00:41:04,515
the bill", 'cause this is like,
June-July '74.

886
00:41:04,599 --> 00:41:06,684
Yeah. A picture of what?

887
00:41:06,767 --> 00:41:08,143
Bob Wilson.

888
00:41:08,227 --> 00:41:09,436
Did you get a credit?

889
00:41:09,519 --> 00:41:10,479
Yeah.

890
00:41:13,315 --> 00:41:15,442
So Vince says he'll be over
in a few minutes

891
00:41:15,525 --> 00:41:17,277
when he gets
his equipment together.

892
00:41:18,194 --> 00:41:19,821
What, for a shower?

893
00:41:19,904 --> 00:41:20,655
Yeah.

894
00:41:20,739 --> 00:41:22,323
Did he bring his own towel?

895
00:41:22,406 --> 00:41:23,116
No.

896
00:41:23,199 --> 00:41:24,200
Soap?

897
00:41:24,283 --> 00:41:27,620
Well, he brought his shampoo,
his hair dryer.

898
00:41:28,537 --> 00:41:30,331
Last time he came,
he brought a washcloth.

899
00:41:32,750 --> 00:41:36,128
So I go to the store
and I buy tuna fish noodles,

900
00:41:36,211 --> 00:41:38,338
Progresso, and yogurt, plain.

901
00:41:38,421 --> 00:41:39,631
And I come back up,

902
00:41:39,714 --> 00:41:41,508
I do 27 push-ups,
and then I turn

903
00:41:41,591 --> 00:41:42,717
the television on.

904
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,969
The evening's
entertainment commences.

905
00:41:45,052 --> 00:41:48,389
Then I decide to cook.
But then I think, "Oh, Vince."

906
00:41:49,390 --> 00:41:51,600
Because it had been my plan
before he called.

907
00:41:52,977 --> 00:41:54,645
So I think maybe I'll ask him
if he wants to eat.

908
00:41:54,728 --> 00:41:57,523
So he arrives and I ask.
I say, "I'm not gonna put

909
00:41:57,606 --> 00:41:58,982
any vegetables in or anything.

910
00:41:59,065 --> 00:42:00,609
I just don't feel like even
frying an onion,

911
00:42:00,692 --> 00:42:02,318
but I'll just whip that up."

912
00:42:02,402 --> 00:42:03,319
And he said, "Oh, I thought

913
00:42:03,403 --> 00:42:05,071
that we could send out
for Chinese food.

914
00:42:06,072 --> 00:42:07,365
I'll treat."

915
00:42:07,448 --> 00:42:08,949
So I said, "Terrific."

916
00:42:09,033 --> 00:42:11,286
Yeah, save the tuna
for another day.

917
00:42:11,369 --> 00:42:14,079
So he's in the shower,
and he says,

918
00:42:14,163 --> 00:42:15,497
"I'll go down soon."

919
00:42:15,581 --> 00:42:17,249
And I think it's silly
to wait here

920
00:42:17,332 --> 00:42:19,751
while he's washing
and drying himself

921
00:42:19,834 --> 00:42:20,835
to go get the food.

922
00:42:50,613 --> 00:42:52,990
So I go down while he's still
in the shower.

923
00:42:53,074 --> 00:42:54,408
And then what do I do?

924
00:42:55,827 --> 00:42:57,328
Then I went
to the Chinese restaurant

925
00:42:57,411 --> 00:42:59,538
and ordered the stuff.

926
00:42:59,621 --> 00:43:02,124
I go to the Chinese
and there's a guy there.

927
00:43:02,208 --> 00:43:02,916
Hmm.

928
00:43:02,999 --> 00:43:04,876
Who looks sort of fat.

929
00:43:05,711 --> 00:43:07,588
But he has a very nice face.

930
00:43:08,547 --> 00:43:10,924
There's something sort
of lonely and strange.

931
00:43:13,468 --> 00:43:16,137
He seems very much
like an unmarried man.

932
00:43:16,221 --> 00:43:18,806
Uh, straight, 35.

933
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:21,726
And he takes one of
the mountain,

934
00:43:21,809 --> 00:43:23,227
Jade Mountain card,
the calling cards.

935
00:43:23,310 --> 00:43:24,561
Mmhmm.

936
00:43:24,644 --> 00:43:28,398
And he takes out a felt-tip pen
and he starts to draw on it.

937
00:43:28,482 --> 00:43:30,024
He makes these sort of squares.

938
00:43:30,108 --> 00:43:31,693
Is he waiting for an order?

939
00:43:31,776 --> 00:43:33,194
Yeah.

940
00:43:33,277 --> 00:43:35,071
Yeah, which was
chicken chow mein.

941
00:43:35,154 --> 00:43:36,447
Oh, good luck.

942
00:43:36,530 --> 00:43:39,075
And the waiter comes out
and says, "Your order's ready."

943
00:43:39,158 --> 00:43:42,495
And he sort of nods
and then continues drawing.

944
00:43:42,578 --> 00:43:44,830
And enough time has passed
and he's still drawing

945
00:43:44,913 --> 00:43:45,581
these boxes.

946
00:43:45,664 --> 00:43:47,625
Was this
on the little tiny card?

947
00:43:47,708 --> 00:43:49,042
Yeah, and he's really into it.

948
00:43:50,418 --> 00:43:53,088
And then the waiter stands there
sort of perplexed.

949
00:43:53,922 --> 00:43:56,466
And then he walks back
over to him, and he says,

950
00:43:56,549 --> 00:43:58,676
"Your order's ready."
And he says, "Oh."

951
00:44:00,344 --> 00:44:04,265
And it came to $3.45.

952
00:44:04,348 --> 00:44:06,100
For chicken chow mein?

953
00:44:06,183 --> 00:44:08,352
For his stuff.
And then he leaves.

954
00:44:08,435 --> 00:44:10,103
Mine is-- takes
a few more minutes,

955
00:44:10,187 --> 00:44:11,772
and it's $7.30.

956
00:44:11,855 --> 00:44:14,650
It's 7.30, but you only had 7.

957
00:44:14,733 --> 00:44:15,817
7.4-- 7.43

958
00:44:15,901 --> 00:44:16,985
Yeah, but you only had 7.

959
00:44:17,068 --> 00:44:18,820
I had 7,
and I paid the difference.

960
00:44:18,904 --> 00:44:19,863
Big spender.

961
00:44:19,946 --> 00:44:21,864
And also,
I had to get Vince a Coke.

962
00:44:21,947 --> 00:44:24,200
So I go to the store,
a Greek place.

963
00:44:24,284 --> 00:44:25,618
- Hm.
- I get the Coke.

964
00:44:25,701 --> 00:44:27,953
It's 32 ounces,
which is 65 cents.

965
00:44:28,037 --> 00:44:29,622
And I go back up.

966
00:44:29,705 --> 00:44:31,290
And he's dressed
and he's drying his hair.

967
00:44:31,373 --> 00:44:34,626
Oh, the guy, the Chinese,

968
00:44:34,709 --> 00:44:36,378
the guy from the
Chinese restaurant, the artist.

969
00:44:36,461 --> 00:44:37,796
Mmhmm.

970
00:44:37,879 --> 00:44:39,839
He bought something
in that store.

971
00:44:39,923 --> 00:44:41,299
I don't know what he bought,
but he bought something.

972
00:44:41,382 --> 00:44:43,176
- In the Greek store?
- In the Greek store.

973
00:44:43,259 --> 00:44:45,136
And he asked for the slip,

974
00:44:45,219 --> 00:44:47,346
and he didn't pay for it
in the Greek store.

975
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:50,308
He just took the sales receipt,
and he wrote Schmidt

976
00:44:50,391 --> 00:44:51,559
on the back of it.

977
00:44:52,518 --> 00:44:56,438
And um, and he's,
without saying a word, he left.

978
00:44:56,521 --> 00:44:57,940
Well, you should
try that sometime.

979
00:44:58,023 --> 00:44:58,982
That's a good trick.

980
00:44:59,066 --> 00:45:00,150
I bet it would work up
in this neighborhood

981
00:45:00,233 --> 00:45:01,276
up in Yorkville.

982
00:45:02,819 --> 00:45:06,364
So I come back up,
and I open the containers.

983
00:45:06,448 --> 00:45:08,991
And I get out the plates,
and we sit down, and we eat.

984
00:45:09,075 --> 00:45:11,160
I have the sweet and sour,
and Vince has--

985
00:45:11,243 --> 00:45:13,037
You don't share?

986
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,830
Um, a little bit, but mostly
I don't really like

987
00:45:14,913 --> 00:45:16,039
moo goo gai pan.

988
00:45:16,123 --> 00:45:18,124
Vince didn't eat much of it.
I ate all of mine.

989
00:45:18,208 --> 00:45:20,419
And there wasn't enough rice.

990
00:45:20,502 --> 00:45:22,546
And then I said, "Why don't you
take the Coke home?

991
00:45:22,629 --> 00:45:23,922
Because I still have
the last one here,

992
00:45:24,005 --> 00:45:25,631
it's flat,
since you were here."

993
00:45:25,715 --> 00:45:26,716
He lives on Coke.

994
00:45:26,799 --> 00:45:28,759
Yeah, that's why his skin
is so great.

995
00:45:30,636 --> 00:45:32,054
He does not eat good, Vincent.

996
00:45:32,972 --> 00:45:34,181
He really loves junk food.

997
00:45:34,932 --> 00:45:36,601
We were out one night
with Fran Lebowitz

998
00:45:36,684 --> 00:45:39,979
and Craig Karpel,
going to an Italian restaurant.

999
00:45:40,062 --> 00:45:42,022
And Vincent insisted on getting
out of the car,

1000
00:45:42,106 --> 00:45:44,107
so that he could go
to McDonald's.

1001
00:45:44,191 --> 00:45:45,734
And he said that
he would meet us there

1002
00:45:45,817 --> 00:45:46,901
at the restaurant
for coffee.

1003
00:45:46,985 --> 00:45:48,570
Well, that's crazy.

1004
00:45:49,654 --> 00:45:51,781
Maybe it's because
he grew up on Italian food.

1005
00:45:51,865 --> 00:45:53,532
No, but I mean,
when you're with people.

1006
00:45:54,533 --> 00:45:55,576
I mean, he had
to have McDonald's.

1007
00:45:55,659 --> 00:45:57,370
Yeah, get a fix.

1008
00:46:04,167 --> 00:46:06,044
I can't remember
what we talked about.

1009
00:46:07,545 --> 00:46:09,506
I told him
about Allen Ginsberg.

1010
00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:12,300
Oh, I read him the beginning
of this list.

1011
00:46:13,217 --> 00:46:14,677
I said, "It's amazing."

1012
00:46:14,761 --> 00:46:15,595
I had the feeling

1013
00:46:15,678 --> 00:46:18,305
that I'd done nothing
but gotten up,

1014
00:46:19,515 --> 00:46:21,475
photographed Allen Ginsberg,
developed the film,

1015
00:46:21,558 --> 00:46:22,726
and that was it.

1016
00:46:23,685 --> 00:46:25,271
You know, I often have a feeling
that in my day,

1017
00:46:25,354 --> 00:46:28,690
nothing much happens,
that I've wasted it.

1018
00:46:28,774 --> 00:46:30,066
Well, now you know.

1019
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:31,735
I've wasted another day.

1020
00:46:32,610 --> 00:46:35,155
All I did is I spent
two hours with Ginsberg.

1021
00:46:35,238 --> 00:46:36,281
This takes a day.

1022
00:46:37,490 --> 00:46:40,117
That's why
I'm doing this, actually.

1023
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,037
To find out how people
fill up their days,

1024
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,998
because I myself feel like
I don't do much

1025
00:46:46,081 --> 00:46:47,499
of anything all day.

1026
00:46:48,792 --> 00:46:50,419
You should do it.

1027
00:46:50,502 --> 00:46:51,503
I'm going to.

1028
00:46:52,254 --> 00:46:53,713
Anyway, there's a knock
at the door,

1029
00:46:53,797 --> 00:46:56,340
and it's Glenn O'Brien wearing
one of those coats like Joseph

1030
00:46:56,424 --> 00:46:58,885
used to wear with the fur
collar, beige, gray.

1031
00:46:58,968 --> 00:47:00,011
-What, a storm coat?
-With the belt, yeah.

1032
00:47:00,094 --> 00:47:01,720
Mmhmm. Like suburban.

1033
00:47:01,804 --> 00:47:04,390
And he comes in
and he doesn't take it off,

1034
00:47:04,473 --> 00:47:06,975
and he says,
"I'm going to jam with Bruce."

1035
00:47:07,059 --> 00:47:09,562
And I say, "Oh, come on.
How do you jam?

1036
00:47:09,645 --> 00:47:11,855
What do you do?
You don't play an instrument."

1037
00:47:11,939 --> 00:47:13,565
And he says,
"We listen to records,

1038
00:47:13,648 --> 00:47:15,858
and we say we want
to do it like that."

1039
00:47:15,942 --> 00:47:18,695
And I say, "You should get
Topaz Caucasian for your band."

1040
00:47:18,778 --> 00:47:20,154
Well, she doesn't play
anything either.

1041
00:47:20,237 --> 00:47:22,532
She-- Oh, she plays the trumpet,
but she doesn't exist.

1042
00:47:22,615 --> 00:47:23,658
She's fictitious.

1043
00:47:24,616 --> 00:47:28,037
She's a woman that was made up
by Pat Costello,

1044
00:47:28,912 --> 00:47:32,999
part of Wartoke Music
Publicity Group.

1045
00:47:33,083 --> 00:47:35,168
They do the publicity
for Stevie Wonder.

1046
00:47:35,251 --> 00:47:38,171
They took me on tour
with Rod Stewart,

1047
00:47:39,505 --> 00:47:42,842
and they drop out the name
occasionally, Topaz Caucasian.

1048
00:47:44,093 --> 00:47:46,929
She was at Miami Pop Festival
or whatever it was,

1049
00:47:47,012 --> 00:47:49,640
Newport Festival,
or she made a brief appearance

1050
00:47:49,724 --> 00:47:52,226
on stage with Miles Davis,
and they put this in the paper.

1051
00:47:54,478 --> 00:47:56,605
Topaz Caucasian is supposed
to be a 6-foot,

1052
00:47:56,688 --> 00:48:00,191
red-haired mulatto,
and she actually got

1053
00:48:00,274 --> 00:48:01,443
into all the papers.

1054
00:48:01,526 --> 00:48:02,569
I would be with people

1055
00:48:02,652 --> 00:48:03,612
who would swear that they
had seen Topaz Caucasian.

1056
00:48:03,695 --> 00:48:04,570
Wait.

1057
00:48:04,653 --> 00:48:06,655
How did you know
that she was made up?

1058
00:48:08,907 --> 00:48:10,368
Because I was there
when she was made up.

1059
00:48:10,451 --> 00:48:12,119
Oh.

1060
00:48:12,202 --> 00:48:14,287
Did Glenn O'Brien
know she was made up?

1061
00:48:15,372 --> 00:48:17,708
No, I told him the story
of Topaz, that she was made up,

1062
00:48:17,791 --> 00:48:20,252
and I said that she could be
just perfect to say

1063
00:48:20,335 --> 00:48:22,212
that you're considering
Topaz Caucasian,

1064
00:48:22,295 --> 00:48:23,463
and he said, "Yeah."

1065
00:48:24,339 --> 00:48:25,465
He knew about Topaz.

1066
00:48:25,548 --> 00:48:27,216
He said that,
"If someone dared come out

1067
00:48:27,299 --> 00:48:31,178
and say, 'I am Topaz Caucasian',
that they could be heard,"

1068
00:48:31,929 --> 00:48:35,141
that they could make a record,
at least cut a demo,

1069
00:48:35,224 --> 00:48:37,643
because people were saying,
"Who is she? Who's she with?"

1070
00:48:37,726 --> 00:48:40,020
There's something
like they're doing it real.

1071
00:48:40,103 --> 00:48:42,147
I think that they might
start collecting musicians.

1072
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:43,148
-They just might.
-Yeah.

1073
00:48:43,231 --> 00:48:45,691
I have a feeling
that Suzi Quatro did that.

1074
00:48:49,029 --> 00:48:50,821
Well, now what happens?

1075
00:48:50,905 --> 00:48:54,158
Glenn's there,
stays for about 10 minutes,

1076
00:48:54,241 --> 00:48:56,368
and then he leaves,
so it's just me and Vince.

1077
00:48:57,077 --> 00:48:59,329
And I say I have to go back
to work,

1078
00:49:00,330 --> 00:49:02,041
and Glenn says
he's going to go home.

1079
00:49:04,793 --> 00:49:07,712
I mentioned your book
during this thing,

1080
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:10,882
and they're like,
"Patrick says it would be great

1081
00:49:10,965 --> 00:49:11,883
to have a sofa."

1082
00:49:12,842 --> 00:49:15,344
And I say,
"It would really change my life.

1083
00:49:16,387 --> 00:49:17,930
And we discussed this
during the dinner,

1084
00:49:18,013 --> 00:49:22,309
the make-out possibilities
and how difficult--

1085
00:49:22,392 --> 00:49:23,143
You know, in his apartment,

1086
00:49:23,226 --> 00:49:26,771
he has a bed
and straight chairs,

1087
00:49:26,855 --> 00:49:29,399
so they either have to go
to the bedroom

1088
00:49:29,482 --> 00:49:32,026
and watch the television,
do it that way

1089
00:49:32,109 --> 00:49:34,153
or if they get on the bed,
he keeps the bed

1090
00:49:34,236 --> 00:49:35,112
in the living room,

1091
00:49:36,030 --> 00:49:38,324
and he keeps all these
magazines and letters.

1092
00:49:38,407 --> 00:49:39,408
He has to move all these.

1093
00:49:39,491 --> 00:49:41,743
Yeah. Well, a couch,
a couch would be in between.

1094
00:49:41,827 --> 00:49:43,037
You can do it on the couch.

1095
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:44,371
You can sleep on the couch.

1096
00:49:44,455 --> 00:49:46,247
You can stretch out
and read on the couch.

1097
00:49:46,332 --> 00:49:48,041
It's really a rather
wonderful thing.

1098
00:49:48,124 --> 00:49:50,001
And one day, it'll be yours.

1099
00:49:52,754 --> 00:49:57,675
Okay, so Vincent leaves,
and I go back to the dark room.

1100
00:49:58,884 --> 00:50:00,386
This is about 10:00?

1101
00:50:02,096 --> 00:50:04,974
Probably somewhere in there,
not watching the clock,

1102
00:50:06,225 --> 00:50:11,480
and I think about making
the restaurant enlargements.

1103
00:50:13,357 --> 00:50:16,192
The restaurant job I did,
the interior of the restaurant.

1104
00:50:17,151 --> 00:50:18,737
I just hate printing it.

1105
00:50:19,737 --> 00:50:21,822
You know there's like,
14 different prints

1106
00:50:23,574 --> 00:50:25,158
and the contacts

1107
00:50:25,243 --> 00:50:28,078
are in the dryer already
of Ginsberg.

1108
00:50:28,161 --> 00:50:29,371
What's your reaction?

1109
00:50:32,833 --> 00:50:34,834
There's very little there.

1110
00:50:37,254 --> 00:50:38,630
There's no contact.

1111
00:50:39,672 --> 00:50:40,798
Hm.

1112
00:50:42,509 --> 00:50:44,677
So then I make
the restaurant pictures,

1113
00:50:45,970 --> 00:50:49,098
and when I'm looking at them,
I was really exhausted.

1114
00:50:50,724 --> 00:50:52,559
I just wanted to go
to bed again.

1115
00:50:54,645 --> 00:50:56,772
But when I start working,
I kind of wake up.

1116
00:50:56,855 --> 00:50:58,899
Did you have lunch?

1117
00:50:58,982 --> 00:51:00,733
I had the liverwurst sandwich.

1118
00:51:00,816 --> 00:51:02,902
Hm. I think you're malnourished.

1119
00:51:02,985 --> 00:51:04,487
Do you eat enough vegetables?

1120
00:51:05,780 --> 00:51:07,865
Sometimes, but like yesterday,
that's all I had.

1121
00:51:07,948 --> 00:51:10,159
Well, that is not enough.
Not for a big man.

1122
00:51:10,242 --> 00:51:10,910
Really.

1123
00:51:10,993 --> 00:51:12,244
I guess not.

1124
00:51:12,327 --> 00:51:13,537
That is why you're tired.

1125
00:51:13,620 --> 00:51:15,330
I'm not that tired.

1126
00:51:15,414 --> 00:51:16,248
It's just certain things

1127
00:51:16,331 --> 00:51:18,082
like Allen Ginsberg
got me tired.

1128
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:29,135
So I uh, make the blow-up
of the restaurant,

1129
00:51:29,218 --> 00:51:31,387
and after I've made
half a dozen,

1130
00:51:32,263 --> 00:51:34,348
I realize this is quite
an incredibly good job.

1131
00:51:34,432 --> 00:51:37,017
It looks very professional.

1132
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:41,854
And I got all these pictures
of one restaurant,

1133
00:51:41,939 --> 00:51:44,399
portrait of the owner for $450.

1134
00:51:44,482 --> 00:51:46,526
That's really a steal,
a good price.

1135
00:51:47,902 --> 00:51:49,821
I thought, "Oh, it's really too
much", because I was there

1136
00:51:49,904 --> 00:51:51,656
a couple of hours,
and I did these pictures.

1137
00:51:52,865 --> 00:51:54,491
And it looks
just like the place.

1138
00:51:55,701 --> 00:51:58,620
And Fran calls, and uh, I say,
"I'm at work."

1139
00:51:58,704 --> 00:52:00,289
And she says,
"Okay, go back to work.

1140
00:52:00,372 --> 00:52:01,957
I'll talk to you tomorrow.

1141
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:03,499
And she says goodbye.

1142
00:52:04,751 --> 00:52:05,626
And I finish up

1143
00:52:05,711 --> 00:52:07,587
the restaurant things,
and I wash them,

1144
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:09,505
and I realize, I better not soak
them overnight,

1145
00:52:09,589 --> 00:52:13,718
because that polycontrast paper
starts to peel at the edges,

1146
00:52:13,801 --> 00:52:16,303
and I want it to look very
presentable and neat.

1147
00:52:17,554 --> 00:52:20,182
To get my money
so I wash them,

1148
00:52:21,892 --> 00:52:22,934
and the heat is off.

1149
00:52:23,018 --> 00:52:23,977
The heat had gone off

1150
00:52:24,061 --> 00:52:25,854
about 7:30 when Vince
was taking a shower.

1151
00:52:25,937 --> 00:52:27,564
It's getting very cold.

1152
00:52:27,647 --> 00:52:29,107
Does this happen every night?

1153
00:52:30,859 --> 00:52:32,693
It's very peculiar.

1154
00:52:32,777 --> 00:52:35,029
The night before, it had been on
all night long.

1155
00:52:35,113 --> 00:52:36,530
It was so hot.

1156
00:52:39,116 --> 00:52:41,535
It was on until 7:00
and it was off until 2:00.

1157
00:52:43,078 --> 00:52:44,872
It's on some kind
of automatic thing.

1158
00:52:44,955 --> 00:52:46,039
It's very weird.

1159
00:52:47,457 --> 00:52:49,042
But I knew it was okay
to leave the prints

1160
00:52:49,126 --> 00:52:52,003
to dry out in the air,
because if it was cold,

1161
00:52:52,086 --> 00:52:53,838
I could leave them
out overnight,

1162
00:52:53,921 --> 00:52:56,048
and they would dry slower
and flatter.

1163
00:52:57,508 --> 00:52:59,176
And then I remembered
that I have to go

1164
00:52:59,260 --> 00:53:00,719
to Tina tomorrow,
and I have to bring her

1165
00:53:00,803 --> 00:53:02,888
the Janet Flanner pictures.

1166
00:53:02,972 --> 00:53:04,890
She's buying two
to trade for sessions.

1167
00:53:05,766 --> 00:53:08,560
So I pick out two
that are kind of matched,

1168
00:53:08,644 --> 00:53:12,063
and I realized that
the print that I had made,

1169
00:53:12,147 --> 00:53:16,276
the one that you have,
was really so much better.

1170
00:53:17,235 --> 00:53:19,279
And I hadn't really seen
that before.

1171
00:53:21,572 --> 00:53:23,323
Felicity had said,
"I want that print today.

1172
00:53:23,407 --> 00:53:25,325
These people
are here for this party."

1173
00:53:25,409 --> 00:53:26,660
"I've been doing something
all morning,

1174
00:53:26,744 --> 00:53:29,371
so I got home at 3:00",
and I said, "Well,

1175
00:53:29,454 --> 00:53:30,955
I can make it in an hour,
and if you give me

1176
00:53:31,039 --> 00:53:32,040
50 bucks for it",

1177
00:53:32,123 --> 00:53:34,292
I might as well
make the ones for Tina, too.

1178
00:53:34,376 --> 00:53:36,210
And I thought
that they were good.

1179
00:53:36,294 --> 00:53:39,338
But I realized that
to do good work,

1180
00:53:39,422 --> 00:53:41,715
I have to like have the time

1181
00:53:41,799 --> 00:53:44,635
to really look at it,
really see what I'm doing.

1182
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,684
Sometimes I just stand
and stare at it,

1183
00:53:51,767 --> 00:53:53,894
and it's even
rather pleasurable.

1184
00:53:55,478 --> 00:53:58,898
It really takes time
to get to know it.

1185
00:54:01,776 --> 00:54:03,444
That almost sounds corny.

1186
00:54:32,805 --> 00:54:34,223
Anyway, I hadn't realized
till then

1187
00:54:34,306 --> 00:54:36,516
that they were
really ordinary prints.

1188
00:54:38,935 --> 00:54:40,854
They were good,
but they were ordinary.

1189
00:54:43,147 --> 00:54:46,525
Like, that one had those
really strange whites, black.

1190
00:54:49,153 --> 00:54:50,613
So I signed them.

1191
00:54:52,156 --> 00:54:55,283
My pen wasn't writing good,
so the P in Peter

1192
00:54:55,368 --> 00:54:56,785
was just looking awful.

1193
00:55:00,580 --> 00:55:01,748
So once you put pen

1194
00:55:01,831 --> 00:55:05,710
and India ink on the face
of a print, it just looked puny.

1195
00:55:07,211 --> 00:55:09,672
I thought, "I can't get
too tight with the E-T-E-R,

1196
00:55:09,756 --> 00:55:12,424
but at least I can keep it
in the same scale

1197
00:55:12,508 --> 00:55:14,760
but give it some zip
because it becomes like part

1198
00:55:14,844 --> 00:55:16,053
of the image."

1199
00:55:17,763 --> 00:55:19,181
And the pen
just wouldn't write boldly.

1200
00:55:19,265 --> 00:55:20,766
It wanted to go slow.

1201
00:55:24,352 --> 00:55:28,023
So anyway, I signed them,
and I thought, "Oh, well."

1202
00:55:31,692 --> 00:55:34,695
Oh, before that,
there were two little spots

1203
00:55:34,779 --> 00:55:35,405
that I took out.

1204
00:55:35,488 --> 00:55:36,822
I spotted the print...

1205
00:55:38,448 --> 00:55:40,325
and I went through
my photographs

1206
00:55:41,368 --> 00:55:43,620
to try and find the picture
of Frank Lima's daughter,

1207
00:55:43,703 --> 00:55:46,039
for Tina, who likes it.

1208
00:55:48,124 --> 00:55:50,627
I couldn't remember
whether I had it printed,

1209
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:51,878
but I knew

1210
00:55:51,961 --> 00:55:54,380
there was one mounted one,
so I found the mounted one.

1211
00:55:56,632 --> 00:56:00,219
And uh, it was peeling
off the cardboard,

1212
00:56:00,303 --> 00:56:02,304
the mounting paste
was coming loose.

1213
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:06,349
So I thought, "I'll try ironing
it back, see if it sticks."

1214
00:56:09,019 --> 00:56:11,813
So I went and got the iron.
This is now like 2:30.

1215
00:56:12,772 --> 00:56:15,775
And I got a sheet of paper
and I pressed it down.

1216
00:56:15,858 --> 00:56:17,944
And I got it all back
on the mount.

1217
00:56:19,653 --> 00:56:21,613
And I thought, "The edges
are a little bit messy,

1218
00:56:21,697 --> 00:56:25,117
but I can say, 'Oh,
but it's the original print."

1219
00:56:25,201 --> 00:56:26,868
I mean, it was still nice,
but the edges

1220
00:56:26,952 --> 00:56:28,244
were a little bit, you know.

1221
00:56:29,830 --> 00:56:30,706
I never thought,

1222
00:56:30,789 --> 00:56:32,874
I usually like things
to be very crisp.

1223
00:56:34,625 --> 00:56:36,877
I somehow thought it was funny
even to have that thought.

1224
00:56:38,379 --> 00:56:39,839
This is the original.

1225
00:56:40,881 --> 00:56:42,425
And you never had
that thought before?

1226
00:56:42,508 --> 00:56:43,968
I don't know whether
it's good or not.

1227
00:56:44,885 --> 00:56:46,470
-It's not bad.
-I know.

1228
00:56:46,553 --> 00:56:49,264
It's like getting caught in--

1229
00:56:49,348 --> 00:56:51,891
Oh, you wouldn't let yourself
get caught into it too much.

1230
00:56:53,185 --> 00:56:55,520
As a look,
I like it to be neat.

1231
00:56:58,106 --> 00:57:00,233
There's something
that bothers me about it.

1232
00:57:16,164 --> 00:57:17,165
Oh.

1233
00:57:27,341 --> 00:57:29,051
So I unplugged the iron.

1234
00:57:32,012 --> 00:57:34,390
And I noticed
a few little spots.

1235
00:57:34,473 --> 00:57:36,349
And there was one spot

1236
00:57:36,433 --> 00:57:38,226
that I really was amazed
that I had gone

1237
00:57:38,309 --> 00:57:39,853
around the print.

1238
00:57:39,936 --> 00:57:41,521
And there was like a hair mark.

1239
00:57:44,815 --> 00:57:46,484
I used to be really good
at spotting.

1240
00:57:46,567 --> 00:57:48,068
Now I find I can't see as good.

1241
00:57:48,152 --> 00:57:48,986
Really?

1242
00:57:51,781 --> 00:57:54,366
Up close,
is that far or near-sighted?

1243
00:57:54,449 --> 00:57:55,700
Far-sighted.

1244
00:57:55,784 --> 00:57:57,494
I find that I have
to look at things like this.

1245
00:57:57,577 --> 00:57:59,163
Yeah, me too.

1246
00:58:00,872 --> 00:58:03,625
And with spotting,
which I used to love to do,

1247
00:58:03,708 --> 00:58:07,211
like see these tiny little spots
and with the brush,

1248
00:58:07,295 --> 00:58:09,338
to be able to put these
pinpoints of dye on it,

1249
00:58:09,422 --> 00:58:10,714
I could do it for hours.

1250
00:58:12,883 --> 00:58:13,634
It was very satisfying.

1251
00:58:13,717 --> 00:58:14,927
I was very good at it.

1252
00:58:16,094 --> 00:58:19,347
Now it's like
a physical unpleasantness.

1253
00:58:21,183 --> 00:58:25,145
Not that it hurts,
but it's not right.

1254
00:58:27,522 --> 00:58:28,898
I can't see it.

1255
00:58:28,981 --> 00:58:29,982
All the pleasure is gone.

1256
00:58:30,066 --> 00:58:31,609
Well, when you get your glasses.

1257
00:58:31,693 --> 00:58:33,778
It's just--
I have to get glasses. Yeah.

1258
00:58:34,821 --> 00:58:36,738
Do you need them for distance?

1259
00:58:36,822 --> 00:58:37,864
No.

1260
00:58:38,740 --> 00:58:40,576
Just up close.

1261
00:58:40,659 --> 00:58:41,910
When I first noticed

1262
00:58:41,993 --> 00:58:46,247
that I was getting far-sighted
was when Maurice Hogenboom,

1263
00:58:46,331 --> 00:58:50,418
who was a Dutch photographer,
living with Caterin Milinaire,

1264
00:58:51,544 --> 00:58:53,003
came over to my house.

1265
00:58:54,129 --> 00:58:55,590
I went to Phoebe's.

1266
00:58:57,758 --> 00:58:59,218
And he showed me
a picture of himself.

1267
00:58:59,301 --> 00:59:00,720
He's quite beautiful.

1268
00:59:01,636 --> 00:59:03,430
I pulled out this picture.

1269
00:59:03,513 --> 00:59:05,099
I said, "Look at this."

1270
00:59:05,182 --> 00:59:08,226
And he put it about a foot away
from my face.

1271
00:59:09,853 --> 00:59:11,395
I mean, not too close.

1272
00:59:13,106 --> 00:59:14,607
And I had to back off.

1273
00:59:14,690 --> 00:59:15,859
It was annoying.

1274
00:59:16,567 --> 00:59:18,277
I had to take it in my hand
and put it out there

1275
00:59:18,361 --> 00:59:19,195
and say, "Oh."

1276
00:59:22,531 --> 00:59:25,158
That was when I realized,
it's strange.

1277
00:59:25,242 --> 00:59:26,576
I used to be able
to look at things that close.

1278
00:59:26,660 --> 00:59:28,411
Didn't you think
we'd just be exempt

1279
00:59:28,495 --> 00:59:30,330
from all these things?

1280
00:59:30,413 --> 00:59:31,498
I never gave it a thought.

1281
00:59:31,581 --> 00:59:33,791
Yeah, I never thought
these things would happen.

1282
00:59:34,834 --> 00:59:35,960
In a way, I thought--
I mean, yes.

1283
00:59:36,043 --> 00:59:37,962
I had that feeling that none
of those old-age things.

1284
00:59:38,045 --> 00:59:41,465
Arthritis, bursitis,
rheumatism.

1285
00:59:41,548 --> 00:59:43,259
-Hon!
-No, I've got bursitis.

1286
00:59:47,263 --> 00:59:49,431
That was the last time
I saw Maurice Hogenboom.

1287
00:59:51,349 --> 00:59:53,351
He didn't want anything
to do with you, old guys.

1288
00:59:53,434 --> 00:59:54,310
No. No.

1289
00:59:54,394 --> 00:59:57,022
He went to Brazil
and he was photographing

1290
00:59:57,105 --> 00:59:58,981
and he stepped
backwards off a cliff.

1291
01:00:00,483 --> 01:00:02,067
There were some
thousands of feet.

1292
01:00:09,158 --> 01:00:11,201
See what happens
when you step back.

1293
01:00:14,954 --> 01:00:16,540
All hangs together.

1294
01:00:26,048 --> 01:00:27,341
So, you were spotting.

1295
01:00:27,425 --> 01:00:28,801
I was spotting, yeah.

1296
01:00:30,553 --> 01:00:32,680
And then I got
an envelope and a cardboard.

1297
01:00:33,555 --> 01:00:35,765
I didn't have a cardboard.
I did.

1298
01:00:35,849 --> 01:00:37,392
But I didn't want to use it.

1299
01:00:37,475 --> 01:00:39,644
So I used a mounted print
instead, 'cause I'm getting

1300
01:00:39,727 --> 01:00:41,229
really low on cardboard.

1301
01:00:41,313 --> 01:00:43,606
And I put it by the front door,
so that I wouldn't forget it.

1302
01:00:45,149 --> 01:00:46,400
And the contacts that I dried

1303
01:00:46,483 --> 01:00:48,319
in the electric dryer
were already dry.

1304
01:00:50,904 --> 01:00:52,698
So I looked through
this first good look

1305
01:00:52,781 --> 01:00:55,701
through my viewer,
so I could really see the face

1306
01:00:56,452 --> 01:00:57,953
and they were not good.

1307
01:00:58,036 --> 01:01:00,080
Were they good enough
for The Times?

1308
01:01:00,163 --> 01:01:01,414
Probably.

1309
01:01:01,497 --> 01:01:02,498
But he gave out nothing.

1310
01:01:02,582 --> 01:01:04,000
It's not that
he didn't give out.

1311
01:01:05,293 --> 01:01:06,461
It's that we didn't connect.

1312
01:01:06,544 --> 01:01:08,838
He was so hostile though.

1313
01:01:08,921 --> 01:01:11,591
Yeah, it does reflect
in a way on me somehow.

1314
01:01:11,674 --> 01:01:14,134
No, he-- he certainly made it
difficult though.

1315
01:01:15,344 --> 01:01:17,262
Yeah, but like
had he been attracted to me.

1316
01:01:18,847 --> 01:01:22,351
Because men often take
very different pictures

1317
01:01:22,434 --> 01:01:24,519
from women of each other,
because I've seen pictures

1318
01:01:24,603 --> 01:01:26,520
of men that women have taken.

1319
01:01:26,604 --> 01:01:29,315
They're sometimes so charming
and such a come on.

1320
01:01:29,398 --> 01:01:31,400
Like some of Shayla's pictures
of men are just wonderful

1321
01:01:31,484 --> 01:01:32,485
and touching.

1322
01:01:33,736 --> 01:01:36,196
Like there she is,
this beautiful woman out there

1323
01:01:36,279 --> 01:01:37,865
on the streets
and she aims her camera

1324
01:01:37,948 --> 01:01:41,034
at a construction worker.

1325
01:01:41,118 --> 01:01:42,077
I'm getting off track.

1326
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:43,828
I can't even remember
what the track was.

1327
01:01:43,912 --> 01:01:46,038
You were-- you were looking
at the Ginsberg.

1328
01:01:46,123 --> 01:01:47,415
Yeah.

1329
01:01:47,499 --> 01:01:49,291
And it really didn't have much.

1330
01:01:50,001 --> 01:01:52,044
Actually, I hated it
the first look.

1331
01:01:52,128 --> 01:01:54,213
Second look, I thought,
"Well, it's possible.

1332
01:01:54,296 --> 01:01:55,798
I mean, it's not
uninteresting."

1333
01:02:00,177 --> 01:02:01,094
But I did think

1334
01:02:01,177 --> 01:02:03,221
in my snobby way
it would be great to have

1335
01:02:03,304 --> 01:02:06,683
Ginsberg and Burroughs
in a book, in my book.

1336
01:02:10,270 --> 01:02:16,275
Like when Susan said, only
for her friends, I was thinking,

1337
01:02:16,359 --> 01:02:18,068
"Would Susan Sontag
write an introduction

1338
01:02:18,152 --> 01:02:19,028
to my book?

1339
01:02:19,111 --> 01:02:20,445
Or should I have
Vince Aletti write it?

1340
01:02:20,529 --> 01:02:21,822
Or Frank could write
something funny."

1341
01:02:21,906 --> 01:02:24,033
The publisher would probably
have something to say

1342
01:02:24,116 --> 01:02:25,367
about that anyhow.

1343
01:02:25,450 --> 01:02:27,619
Oh, he'd probably love it.
She'd probably help sell books.

1344
01:02:27,702 --> 01:02:29,078
I mean, wouldn't you be
more likely to pick up

1345
01:02:29,162 --> 01:02:30,747
a photography book?

1346
01:02:30,830 --> 01:02:32,415
If-- I mean, I'm sure

1347
01:02:32,498 --> 01:02:35,334
it would help sales
than by Vince Aletti.

1348
01:02:35,418 --> 01:02:37,920
I would really love
to make money off of it.

1349
01:02:38,004 --> 01:02:39,797
Also have it get around.

1350
01:02:44,342 --> 01:02:46,428
You know, I've always had
a star thing.

1351
01:02:47,220 --> 01:02:50,223
Wanting to be
some kind of a star or a star.

1352
01:02:51,058 --> 01:02:54,143
I would like my work
to stand above that.

1353
01:02:56,020 --> 01:02:59,732
I would like my work
to stand about that.

1354
01:02:59,816 --> 01:03:02,109
That my work could stand
so all by itself

1355
01:03:02,193 --> 01:03:03,610
without a single star in it.

1356
01:03:03,694 --> 01:03:04,820
Well, it could.

1357
01:03:06,363 --> 01:03:10,075
I mean, I find the star thing
very superfluous.

1358
01:03:11,242 --> 01:03:14,412
But they're not
your everyday stars.

1359
01:03:15,914 --> 01:03:17,915
Like to me,
those were stars in the show.

1360
01:03:17,999 --> 01:03:19,042
Hm.

1361
01:03:19,125 --> 01:03:20,335
It's-- it's a different thing.

1362
01:03:20,418 --> 01:03:21,502
You know, these people
are very accessible.

1363
01:03:21,586 --> 01:03:23,128
Like Joan Crawford.

1364
01:03:23,212 --> 01:03:25,380
It's like the same thing.

1365
01:03:26,215 --> 01:03:28,050
Like-- like Joan Crawford.

1366
01:03:28,843 --> 01:03:29,927
I mean, wouldn't you go
out of your way

1367
01:03:30,010 --> 01:03:31,720
to see Joan Crawford?

1368
01:03:31,803 --> 01:03:33,763
She's not one
that interests me that much.

1369
01:03:35,014 --> 01:03:37,016
If she was around the corner,
you would see her.

1370
01:03:37,100 --> 01:03:40,103
No, I'm telling you,
I'm very blasé about stars.

1371
01:03:40,186 --> 01:03:41,437
What about an evening
with Joan Crawford?

1372
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:43,856
I think it would be
gigantically boring.

1373
01:03:45,608 --> 01:03:48,277
You're probably right.
I'd still be very curious.

1374
01:03:48,361 --> 01:03:50,404
Yeah,
I'd rather meet Bette Davis.

1375
01:03:52,155 --> 01:03:53,031
Well, there are
other people that--

1376
01:03:53,115 --> 01:03:54,324
I mean, I just picked
Joan Crawford,

1377
01:03:54,407 --> 01:03:57,410
because Vince showed me a book

1378
01:03:57,494 --> 01:03:59,204
and on the cover
there was a scene

1379
01:03:59,287 --> 01:04:03,375
from, I think it was King Kong
in New York, some movie

1380
01:04:04,291 --> 01:04:07,879
where New York floods
and you see these big waves

1381
01:04:07,962 --> 01:04:09,671
coming down the street
and it was Herald Square

1382
01:04:09,755 --> 01:04:10,881
with Crawford.

1383
01:04:42,494 --> 01:04:43,620
Where was I?

1384
01:04:46,122 --> 01:04:49,500
I put them in the envelope
over by the door

1385
01:04:52,128 --> 01:04:56,006
and I look at the Ginsbergs
and I don't like them.

1386
01:04:58,801 --> 01:05:00,593
But I said, "Well,

1387
01:05:00,678 --> 01:05:03,055
there are one or two
that aren't really that bad.

1388
01:05:03,138 --> 01:05:07,767
And I'm sure if I really print
it incredibly..."

1389
01:05:12,479 --> 01:05:13,773
Printing can sometimes...

1390
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,027
What? Bring out things?

1391
01:05:19,445 --> 01:05:20,696
Yeah.

1392
01:05:27,077 --> 01:05:29,662
I mean,
even in the quality of the face.

1393
01:05:35,042 --> 01:05:38,838
Like in one print the person
looks completely different.

1394
01:05:42,466 --> 01:05:46,470
It's like adding something
or uh, forcing something

1395
01:05:46,553 --> 01:05:49,973
to happen, which is
interesting.

1396
01:06:00,191 --> 01:06:02,150
And I uh, started to write down

1397
01:06:02,235 --> 01:06:03,861
my last notes of this.

1398
01:06:09,241 --> 01:06:10,825
And say, "I'm going to bed."

1399
01:06:13,828 --> 01:06:17,248
But then I got up
once I'd done that

1400
01:06:17,331 --> 01:06:20,918
and I went inside
the harpsichord

1401
01:06:23,712 --> 01:06:26,340
and I run through part
of the Bach thing that I know.

1402
01:06:30,594 --> 01:06:36,599
And make a few mistakes,
but I do it over

1403
01:06:36,682 --> 01:06:38,893
until I play it nicely
and it sounds good.

1404
01:06:45,775 --> 01:06:50,529
And I turn out the lights
and first I set the clock

1405
01:06:50,612 --> 01:06:51,780
and brush my teeth.

1406
01:06:51,863 --> 01:06:54,408
You hadn't eaten
this whole time since dinner.

1407
01:06:55,534 --> 01:06:57,661
I would've eaten
six things by now.

1408
01:06:57,744 --> 01:06:59,663
Actually, I was feeling bloated.

1409
01:07:01,247 --> 01:07:02,791
I don't know why,

1410
01:07:02,874 --> 01:07:05,543
whether it was tension
or why does one feel bloated?

1411
01:07:07,461 --> 01:07:09,505
What is that a sign of?

1412
01:07:09,588 --> 01:07:10,714
Because I didn't eat much

1413
01:07:10,798 --> 01:07:13,926
for dinner but I felt like
the food was in my stomach

1414
01:07:14,009 --> 01:07:14,802
for hours.

1415
01:07:14,885 --> 01:07:17,012
Well, it was probably
shitty food.

1416
01:07:17,095 --> 01:07:19,222
I think your stomach is shrunk.
That's what it is.

1417
01:07:20,140 --> 01:07:22,058
No, it's actually sticking out.

1418
01:07:22,141 --> 01:07:24,394
No, I-- I think your stomach
has gotten so small

1419
01:07:24,477 --> 01:07:26,729
from not eating
that a little food

1420
01:07:26,813 --> 01:07:28,480
can stick it out.

1421
01:07:28,564 --> 01:07:30,441
After one
and a half liverwurst sandwiches

1422
01:07:30,524 --> 01:07:32,484
my stomach
was actually popping out.

1423
01:07:34,611 --> 01:07:37,906
I think it really has something
to do with smoking and tension.

1424
01:07:40,909 --> 01:07:42,285
You put a lot of energy
into smoking

1425
01:07:42,368 --> 01:07:44,579
that you could be using
in other ways.

1426
01:07:46,081 --> 01:07:47,748
It's no good, I know.

1427
01:07:49,625 --> 01:07:51,627
It upsets me.

1428
01:07:51,711 --> 01:07:53,378
It really does.

1429
01:07:54,421 --> 01:07:56,006
I wish I could stop.

1430
01:07:57,049 --> 01:07:58,508
But I don't feel good.

1431
01:08:01,886 --> 01:08:03,763
I have smokers hangover
all day long.

1432
01:08:08,434 --> 01:08:14,815
And then the harpsichord,
brush my teeth,

1433
01:08:17,485 --> 01:08:21,571
set the clock for 10:00 a.m.
and I go to bed.

1434
01:08:25,867 --> 01:08:28,245
I fall asleep
almost immediately.

1435
01:08:39,546 --> 01:08:42,799
And then within a few minutes
uh,

1436
01:08:45,051 --> 01:08:48,596
I wake up, because the whores
are out on the street outside.

1437
01:08:49,890 --> 01:08:52,100
They have this conversation.

1438
01:08:52,183 --> 01:08:53,309
They talk so loud

1439
01:08:53,393 --> 01:08:54,810
with closed windows
I can hear every word

1440
01:08:54,894 --> 01:08:55,978
they're saying.

1441
01:08:56,061 --> 01:08:59,189
What are they talking about?
About the trade?

1442
01:08:59,273 --> 01:09:00,149
Yeah.

1443
01:09:00,941 --> 01:09:02,192
Just shop talk?

1444
01:09:02,276 --> 01:09:03,318
Yeah.

1445
01:09:05,737 --> 01:09:07,447
Do they keep you awake
for a while?

1446
01:09:08,865 --> 01:09:10,367
No.

1447
01:09:10,450 --> 01:09:11,325
I got up.

1448
01:09:13,828 --> 01:09:15,329
And I looked out the window.

1449
01:09:18,332 --> 01:09:20,251
I watched them to see
what they looked like.

1450
01:09:22,836 --> 01:09:26,173
One was putting on makeup
in the dark

1451
01:09:26,965 --> 01:09:30,177
in the mirror of a car,

1452
01:09:31,219 --> 01:09:32,220
outside mirror.

1453
01:09:34,472 --> 01:09:35,473
Actually, it wasn't a car.

1454
01:09:35,557 --> 01:09:38,560
It was that blue truck

1455
01:09:39,769 --> 01:09:42,897
that comes from the junkies'
detention center up the block.

1456
01:09:48,860 --> 01:09:53,156
They have this blue truck
with tinted windows

1457
01:09:54,574 --> 01:09:56,785
and it has a small,
rectangular mirror.

1458
01:09:59,662 --> 01:10:03,791
And then I went back
to bed and fell asleep.