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BEN: A series of terrorist
attacks by the Islamic State.
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Hacktivists fight back...
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VOICE: ISIS, you will
be treated like a virus,
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and we are the cure.
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BEN: ...and ally
themselves with governments.
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Individuals passing information
to the US government
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is a longstanding practice.
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But is the war on ISIS
causing a war within Anonymous?
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♪
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(Yelling)
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For more than two years,
the so-called Islamic State
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has been waging war
in Iraq and Syria.
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ISIS members and fanboys
on Twitter and YouTube
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spread propaganda...
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(Speaking foreign language)
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...while others deface websites
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and penetrate
networks for intel.
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One IS hacker and British expat
named Junaid Hussain was such
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a threat, the CIA placed
him
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before a drone strike in Syria
eventually killed him in 2015.
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I first reported on
Anonymous' anti-ISIS campaign
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in the summer of 2014,
but after the Paris attacks
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a year later, the hacktivist
collective issued a declaration.
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Members of Anonymous
had been taking down
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Islamic State websites, flagging
Twitter accounts for removal,
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hacking targets, and of course
generally just trolling ISIS.
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But some members are actively
collaborating with governments,
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and that tactic has caused a
major rift in the collective.
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It also raises questions
about the thin line
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governments are walking
when it comes to cooperation
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with online vigilantes.
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I'm at Speaker's Corner in
London to meet Nafees Hamid,
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an expert on terrorism
and Islamic radicalization.
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Speaker's Corner has this
history of freedom of speech.
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People can get up there
on their soap box
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and basically talk about
whatever they want to.
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Including people
who support ISIS?
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Yeah, they can't say
they support ISIS,
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but they can basically support
all the goals of ISIS.
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They can support the Caliphate,
they can reject democracy.
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Nafees is a researcher who
focuses on the psychology
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of terrorism, and he's
interviewed dozens of
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ISIS sympathizers and
fighters across Europe.
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I wanted to better
understand the effectiveness
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of the Islamic State's
online operations.
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So let's talk about recruitment,
but specifically social media.
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Alright.
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So how does something
like a YouTube video
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influence some kid
who's in Birmingham
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to pick up and head to
the Islamic Caliphate?
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Usually when someone goes
online, goes on Twitter,
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and let's say make an effort
to reach out to someone
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who's either an ISIS supporter,
an active member of ISIS,
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they follow them or they
tweet them or something,
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and in a very short
amount of time they're just
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all of a sudden surrounded
by all these supporters.
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Like sometimes thousands of
people in a matter of hours
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will just start following a
particular individual who just
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posted a video or made contact
with someone in the group.
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And then you just wanna inundate
that person's Twitter wall
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with all sorts of videos of
what's going on in Syria.
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And then in the midst of all of
that horror that they're seeing
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coming from the Shia
militias, from the regimes,
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from the impotence of
Western countries to step in,
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then they'll see an ISIS
propaganda video that shows
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an Iraqi soldier being
beheaded or killed.
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And that kind of gives them
some kind of catharsis.
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That gives them a
feeling of revenge.
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It makes them seem like heroes.
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(Yelling)
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And it used to be pretty easy
to reach out online
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and contact bonafide ISIS
operators in Iraq or Syria.
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In fact, my chats with one
alleged IS operative from Canada
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landed me in court.
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The Canadian feds
wanted me to fork over
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all of my communications
with Farrah Mohammed Shirdan.
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(Speaking foreign language)
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That case is ongoing,
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and I'm still facing
the threat of jail time.
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These ISIS operatives,
I mean, for a little while,
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they weren't that hard
to find either.
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They're just like a
Twitter link away really,
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and they would even attach
their... you know, whether
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it was Kik or a different
encrypted chat network name.
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And then you'd just download
the app, contact them.
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Exactly, yeah, it was
super easy to talk to them.
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It was kind of out in the open.
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I think from an intelligence
agency point of view,
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this probably
served some purpose
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because you could
monitor some of this stuff.
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It might be a bit harder now
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to contact members of ISIS
online, but a few years ago
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when they were still out in
the open, the US government
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decided to fight fire with
shoddy social media fire.
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We noticed that in 2013,
there was an increase
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in terrorist propaganda
in English.
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And no one in the world,
not just the US,
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had ever done anything
to try to address this.
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Alberto Fernandez
was a US diplomat
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for more than three decades.
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A fluent Arabic speaker, he led
the State Department's program
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to counteract ISIS
messaging online.
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His group produced anti-ISIS
videos in many languages.
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I remember being baffled when
their English language campaign
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known as Think Again Turn Away
launched online in 2013.
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Why don't you tell me
about Think Again Turn Away?
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Think Again Turn Away was
basically a kind of cheap,
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zero budget effort to address
the rise of ISIS propaganda
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in foreign languages,
including English.
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(Audience gasping)
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What the ---- are you doing?
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(Audience laughing)
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The State Department
has genuinely created
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a sarcastic parody recruitment
video for ISIS that begins
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with the words, "Run,
do not walk to ISIS Land."
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And you are banking a lot
on any potential militants
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understanding that
that is sarcasm.
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Oh, you know what?
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I was just about to join ISIS,
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but then I saw your
very clever video!
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The criticism that people
have had is ridiculous,
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that somehow trolling
with these people
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brings us down to their level.
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To some way it does.
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Well, the problem with this is
that they've had free reign
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for years, where
nobody said a thing.
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How did that work out?
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What do you think about
Anonymous and their operations
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against these accounts?
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Certainly the idea
of having more entities
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going after the adversary's
material is a good thing.
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That's what ISIS has, right?
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ISIS has... ISIS
people doing stuff,
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and then it has fanboys.
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All over the world.
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You need a network
to fight a network.
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You need a swarm
to fight a swarm.
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And Anonymous is
part of that swarm?
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It should be, yes.
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BEN: I'm in Toronto to meet
with an anti-ISIS activist
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who calls herself Sneaker.
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She joined a group
called GhostSec in 2015.
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She basically combs the
internet and dark web,
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collecting intel on ISIS,
and assessing whether
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that information should be
passed to the authorities.
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Because Anonymous is such
a loosely connected group,
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there are often divisions within
the hacktivist collective.
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And many Anons condemn
GhostSec's collaboration
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with governments, but
Sneaker sees herself
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as a member of both groups.
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She was reluctant
to talk to us at first,
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but finally agreed to
meet if we promised
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not to reveal any of
her personal details,
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and if she could wear
that white mask you're seeing.
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We just want to help as
many people as we can.
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What motivates you
every day to get up and...
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what, you just wanna
hunt terrorists?
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Every attack that we've had,
whether it's Paris or Belgium
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or, you know, one of the
US attacks - San Bernadino -
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and not only the deaths,
but you know,
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they're enslaving little girls,
the way they treat people
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in the Caliphate including
children, is what does it.
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I mean, we have to do something.
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So GhostSec is working with
the FBI and the US government?
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- Well, not--
- And also with Anonymous?
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Well, we are Anonymous.
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Yeah, we're part of Anonymous,
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but we don't have a
formal arrangement.
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We simply send them the intel,
like any citizen, you know,
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who's thought something's
suspicious, and they might call.
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So that's all we're doing.
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How do you feel about some
people in Anonymous who think
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you guys are just being
rats to the government?
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You know, if we come across
something that's going to
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thwart an attack,
save somebody's life,
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you want us to just
sit on the information
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and not share it
with the government?
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I mean, it doesn't
make any sense.
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The government
just isn't able to do
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as much as they should,
so we're just helping out.
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And you do think you are
doing something they can't do?
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We know that for a fact.
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So how do anti-ISIS activists
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get their information
to the authorities?
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Michael Smith is a
counter-terrorism advisor
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to Congress.
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He once acted as the middle man
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between Sneaker's group
and the government.
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But infighting within
GhostSec led to another split,
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and now Smith only deals
with the newest faction,
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known as Ghost Security Group,
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which confusingly sounds a lot
like the original group's name.
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They reached out to me because
they were interested in finding
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somebody who might be able to
determine whether or not some of
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the information that they were
collecting could be utilized
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for counter-terrorism
operational purposes.
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And honestly, I thought well,
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okay, let's just see what it is
that they're picking up on.
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I knew that they were touting
that they were instrumental
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in closing tens of thousands of
Islamic State-managed accounts
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on Twitter and elsewhere
in social media.
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And very quickly they
demonstrated that they were
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drilling down into these
networks in ways that were
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helping to gather information
about recruitment programs,
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and in some cases
even attack plots
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in various places in the world.
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A notable example of that was
a plot to strike in Tunisia
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around the 4th of
July last year.
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Tunisia, but has
it only been Tunisia?
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And was that plot
actually stopped?
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Well, the plot was
stopped, certainly.
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I received some indication that
the information was useful in
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helping to identify a cell and
some planned activity there.
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There have been other examples,
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but I can't really get into
the specifics of that.
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So wait, you get
this information, okay,
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and then who do you pass it to?
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Do you have a speed
dial for the FBI?
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Well, I know people
in different agencies
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and have points of contact.
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And historically I would
look at the information
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and say alright, based on...
let's say Tunisia,
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where is that going
to be most appropriate
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in terms of the flow
of information?
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Ghost Security,
are they doing things
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that the government can't,
that the NSA can't?
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'Cause they'll claim they are.
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You're having
trouble with that one.
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(Laughing)
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Well, what's different with
Ghost Security Group is that
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they're not answering
to masters in government.
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They can go out and do things
that perhaps would require
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a lot more time and energy
just to develop approvals
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and policies and even
just basic protocols
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for various agencies to
pursue that type of activity.
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So that's a great
little situation
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if you're the US government.
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You can let some guys
go off, or hackers,
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and pretty much do
what they want unchained,
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and then also get the
intelligence from it.
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Well, I guess in theory.
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Strange bedfellows,
is what I'm saying.
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BEN: In 2015, Anonymous
declared war on ISIS.
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The collective and various
subgroups have since taken down
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00:12:13,266 --> 00:12:16,668
ISIS websites and flagged
Twitter accounts for removal.
246
00:12:16,770 --> 00:12:20,171
Some have even shared intel
with the US government.
247
00:12:20,273 --> 00:12:22,373
But many Anonymous members
think that these tactics
248
00:12:22,475 --> 00:12:24,609
violate the collective's
core beliefs.
249
00:12:24,711 --> 00:12:28,379
Discordian is one of Anonymous'
most influential voices.
250
00:12:28,481 --> 00:12:31,049
He's an OG Anon, and the brains
behind some of the group's
251
00:12:31,151 --> 00:12:33,418
most iconic videos.
252
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,954
He skyped me from
somewhere in Europe.
253
00:12:36,056 --> 00:12:38,957
You joined in 2010, and
you were around in 2011,
254
00:12:39,059 --> 00:12:40,325
which was really the heyday.
255
00:12:40,427 --> 00:12:42,093
What did Anonymous mean then?
256
00:12:53,573 --> 00:12:57,575
Now Anonymous is kind of almost
working with the government.
257
00:12:57,677 --> 00:13:00,878
Some of their sects are feeding
things to the government.
258
00:13:32,612 --> 00:13:35,680
So I know obviously you
don't like this operation
259
00:13:35,782 --> 00:13:38,316
against ISIS, but
can you describe to me
260
00:13:38,418 --> 00:13:41,319
how deep the division
really is within Anonymous?
261
00:14:06,980 --> 00:14:09,313
But I mean, if I can
play devil's advocate,
262
00:14:09,416 --> 00:14:12,583
is it really so bad that
Anonymous is going after
263
00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:16,854
a group that mass beheads
individuals, uses sex slaves?
264
00:14:39,712 --> 00:14:41,579
Should ISIS even be
censored at all?
265
00:14:57,630 --> 00:15:00,164
A lot of US officials talk about
the battle for hearts and minds
266
00:15:00,266 --> 00:15:02,834
when it comes to
counter-terrorism.
267
00:15:02,936 --> 00:15:06,104
Well, General David Petraeus
was one of the chief architects
268
00:15:06,206 --> 00:15:08,573
of that exact strategy.
269
00:15:08,675 --> 00:15:10,875
A military legend
with a scandalous fall,
270
00:15:10,977 --> 00:15:12,844
he was commander of
the surge in Iraq,
271
00:15:12,946 --> 00:15:14,846
commander of US forces
in Afghanistan,
272
00:15:14,948 --> 00:15:17,882
and then the director
of the CIA.
273
00:15:17,984 --> 00:15:20,751
Cyberspace, the internet,
this is a new battle space.
274
00:15:20,854 --> 00:15:24,021
You know, we had ground
and then sea and air
275
00:15:24,124 --> 00:15:27,225
and sub-sea and space,
and now you have cyberspace.
276
00:15:27,327 --> 00:15:31,095
And increasingly, there are
battles being fought there.
277
00:15:31,197 --> 00:15:35,133
These are battles of ideas,
and they have to be joined.
278
00:15:35,235 --> 00:15:37,235
Anons like Discordian
believe that governments
279
00:15:37,337 --> 00:15:39,370
working with Anonymous
are actively infiltrating
280
00:15:39,472 --> 00:15:41,205
the hacktivist group.
281
00:15:41,307 --> 00:15:44,142
General Petraeus doesn't talk
much about the CIA and Anonymous
282
00:15:44,244 --> 00:15:47,078
publically, but he agreed to
meet me at his Manhattan office
283
00:15:47,180 --> 00:15:49,313
to discuss this online war.
284
00:15:49,415 --> 00:15:51,949
And I wasn't exactly
expecting him to be candid.
285
00:15:52,051 --> 00:15:53,818
There are people who've said
that there's been a lot of
286
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,654
infiltration of a group like
Anonymous 'cause it's so open,
287
00:15:56,756 --> 00:15:58,156
anyone can just join.
288
00:15:58,258 --> 00:16:00,791
Was there a perspective in
the US intelligence community
289
00:16:00,894 --> 00:16:02,660
that going after a
group like Anonymous
290
00:16:02,762 --> 00:16:05,163
and getting inside of it
was a possibility?
291
00:16:05,265 --> 00:16:08,332
Obviously not something I would
ever discuss, but nice try.
292
00:16:08,434 --> 00:16:09,667
(Laughing)
293
00:16:09,769 --> 00:16:11,669
What do you think about
something like Anonymous
294
00:16:11,771 --> 00:16:14,572
going after ISIS online,
and then passing information
295
00:16:14,674 --> 00:16:16,140
to the US government?
296
00:16:16,242 --> 00:16:19,777
Well, individuals passing
information to the US government
297
00:16:19,879 --> 00:16:21,846
is a longstanding practice.
298
00:16:21,948 --> 00:16:23,314
This is why we have tip lines.
299
00:16:23,416 --> 00:16:25,349
But we have to be very,
very careful, because
300
00:16:25,451 --> 00:16:29,787
just as we did not allow
vigilantism or illegal activity
301
00:16:29,889 --> 00:16:33,491
on the ground when we partnered
with individuals who used to
302
00:16:33,593 --> 00:16:37,628
either tacitly or even
actively oppose us,
303
00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:41,966
you can't allow certain
activities in cyberspace.
304
00:16:42,068 --> 00:16:45,870
You certainly can't promote
them, even just because
305
00:16:45,972 --> 00:16:50,308
they may be aligned with our
interests or our objectives.
306
00:16:50,410 --> 00:16:53,311
So they have to be used
very, very carefully, I think,
307
00:16:53,413 --> 00:16:55,279
if they are used at all.
308
00:16:55,381 --> 00:16:58,816
And I think that the law
enforcement organizations and
309
00:16:58,918 --> 00:17:02,987
the intelligence agencies have
been very careful, in fact,
310
00:17:03,089 --> 00:17:06,123
in their relationships
with such groups.
311
00:17:06,226 --> 00:17:08,626
Some people within Anonymous
that we've spoken to say
312
00:17:08,728 --> 00:17:10,494
that the US government
isn't doing enough,
313
00:17:10,597 --> 00:17:13,231
and it forced them to intervene.
314
00:17:13,333 --> 00:17:15,132
Do you think that that's true?
315
00:17:15,235 --> 00:17:17,635
I don't think you'd find an
argument in the US government
316
00:17:17,737 --> 00:17:20,538
about whether or not
more should be done.
317
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,073
There are always
limits, however.
318
00:17:22,175 --> 00:17:24,542
There's never been a
general who had enough troops,
319
00:17:24,644 --> 00:17:27,511
enough funding,
enough bandwidth,
320
00:17:27,614 --> 00:17:29,981
now enough unmanned
aerial vehicles,
321
00:17:30,083 --> 00:17:32,450
and the same is true when
it comes to cyberspace.
322
00:17:36,956 --> 00:17:38,456
BEN: The online battle
between ISIS and Anonymous
323
00:17:38,558 --> 00:17:40,925
has created unusual alliances
and deep divisions within
324
00:17:41,027 --> 00:17:42,860
the hacktivist collective.
325
00:17:42,962 --> 00:17:45,930
Some Anons believe collaborating
with governments is snitching,
326
00:17:46,032 --> 00:17:47,131
but others are willing
to do whatever it takes
327
00:17:47,233 --> 00:17:48,733
to fight the terror group.
328
00:18:08,821 --> 00:18:11,689
Mikro initially joined
Anonymous to fight ISIS,
329
00:18:11,791 --> 00:18:15,459
and then he started his
own group called CtrlSec.
330
00:18:15,561 --> 00:18:17,295
He devised a way to
crowdsource the reporting
331
00:18:17,397 --> 00:18:20,564
of suspected ISIS accounts
to Twitter en masse
332
00:18:20,667 --> 00:18:22,633
so the company can
pull them down.
333
00:18:22,735 --> 00:18:23,968
Are you saving lives,
do you think?
334
00:18:47,694 --> 00:18:49,560
So in Tunisia, when you
knew the attack was coming,
335
00:18:49,662 --> 00:18:51,762
what did you do
with the intelligence?
336
00:19:00,239 --> 00:19:01,739
What was that moment like?
337
00:19:15,655 --> 00:19:17,455
What do you think of
people who say that
338
00:19:17,557 --> 00:19:20,424
CtrlSec or Anonymous
fighting ISIS this way,
339
00:19:20,526 --> 00:19:22,727
you're kind of aligning with
the military industrial complex
340
00:19:22,829 --> 00:19:24,295
and the goals of
the US government?
341
00:19:40,847 --> 00:19:43,280
So how far is Anonymous straying
from its basic principles
342
00:19:43,383 --> 00:19:45,583
in its fight against ISIS?
343
00:19:45,685 --> 00:19:48,119
A hacker since
his teenage years,
344
00:19:48,221 --> 00:19:50,888
Gregg Housh was part of a
notorious software piracy ring
345
00:19:50,990 --> 00:19:53,657
until he was busted by the FBI.
346
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,426
After a stint in federal prison,
347
00:19:55,528 --> 00:19:58,295
he became one of the original
members of Anonymous.
348
00:19:58,398 --> 00:20:00,431
He's so old school,
he was in Anon before
349
00:20:00,533 --> 00:20:02,967
the Guy Fawkes mask
was even a thing.
350
00:20:03,069 --> 00:20:06,637
ISIS are a natural enemy of
what Anonymous stands for.
351
00:20:06,739 --> 00:20:08,572
- And everybody else.
- If it stands for anything.
352
00:20:08,674 --> 00:20:11,275
You know, freedom
is a big piece of it.
353
00:20:11,377 --> 00:20:13,444
Anti-censorship is
another big piece of it.
354
00:20:13,546 --> 00:20:15,479
You know, at the same time,
355
00:20:15,581 --> 00:20:18,015
what about that
government collaboration?
356
00:20:18,117 --> 00:20:20,418
'Cause you're a guy
who was a black hat hacker
357
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,154
in the criminal world, ran
away from the FBI for a while,
358
00:20:23,256 --> 00:20:25,189
and now the thing
that you helped found
359
00:20:25,291 --> 00:20:28,192
is now collaborating with the
very enemy that you once had.
360
00:20:28,294 --> 00:20:30,194
A lot of Anons don't agree
361
00:20:30,296 --> 00:20:31,996
with working with the
government at all on this.
362
00:20:32,098 --> 00:20:35,266
You know, write it up
to them being right,
363
00:20:35,368 --> 00:20:37,968
which I think: write it up
to them being mad about
364
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:39,637
all their friends
who are in jail.
365
00:20:39,739 --> 00:20:41,105
I mean, you're a
collaborator at that point.
366
00:20:41,207 --> 00:20:43,340
Yeah, at that point you're
a collaborator with someone
367
00:20:43,443 --> 00:20:45,543
who has shown themselves
to be, you know,
368
00:20:45,645 --> 00:20:47,845
mostly the enemy
to people like you.
369
00:20:47,947 --> 00:20:50,147
But just because Gregg
opposes collaboration
370
00:20:50,249 --> 00:20:52,383
with the government, it
doesn't mean he opposes
371
00:20:52,485 --> 00:20:54,785
the direct confrontation
with ISIS.
372
00:20:54,887 --> 00:20:56,887
So if you look at the
stuff that CtrlSec is doing,
373
00:20:56,989 --> 00:21:01,358
GhostSec, Op Ice ISIS, what
does it all mean in the end?
374
00:21:01,461 --> 00:21:03,127
Is it actually
achieving anything?
375
00:21:04,931 --> 00:21:07,965
So this is a question
I get asked a lot,
376
00:21:08,067 --> 00:21:10,067
"What do you hope to achieve?
377
00:21:10,169 --> 00:21:12,870
What in the grand scheme
of things did this do?"
378
00:21:12,972 --> 00:21:15,039
Maybe there would've been
more attacks in other countries,
379
00:21:15,141 --> 00:21:17,341
'cause you know, the recruiters
online that were shut down
380
00:21:17,443 --> 00:21:20,544
by Anonymous would have
reached people that were
381
00:21:20,646 --> 00:21:23,047
ready and willing, if they
had only been talked to.
382
00:21:23,149 --> 00:21:25,649
If one bomb didn't go off
because of what Anonymous did,
383
00:21:25,751 --> 00:21:27,318
then victory.
384
00:21:27,420 --> 00:21:30,654
But the other angle is
the continuing activation
385
00:21:30,756 --> 00:21:32,323
of young people.
386
00:21:32,425 --> 00:21:35,726
When you see acts like this,
you see the world is currently
387
00:21:35,828 --> 00:21:37,495
in a terrible state.
388
00:21:37,597 --> 00:21:42,433
There's a lot that needs to get
done, and you don't have to have
389
00:21:42,535 --> 00:21:44,535
12 years of college
and be a senator.
390
00:21:44,637 --> 00:21:47,338
You don't have to be
someone in a position of power.
391
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,640
You can be sitting at home
and affecting the world.
392
00:21:52,378 --> 00:21:55,346
Anonymous is challenging the
online operations of one of
393
00:21:55,448 --> 00:21:58,549
the most prolific terrorist
organizations on Earth,
394
00:21:58,651 --> 00:22:00,584
trying to do real damage.
395
00:22:00,686 --> 00:22:02,453
The campaign has
raised questions about
396
00:22:02,555 --> 00:22:05,456
how the government cooperates
with online vigilantes.
397
00:22:05,558 --> 00:22:07,358
But whether or not its
operations are doing anything
398
00:22:07,460 --> 00:22:10,227
to stop ISIS, the campaign
has definitely taken its toll
399
00:22:10,329 --> 00:22:12,396
on Anonymous itself.
400
00:22:12,498 --> 00:22:13,697
And some members are asking
401
00:22:13,799 --> 00:22:16,200
if the collective will
ever be the same again.